“She turned on me”

turning

In the last comment thread Rational Male regular, Glenn, had an interesting exchange that went like this:

My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on me by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my relationship with my daughter along the way. So much destruction and pain.

I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? She was hot, there were always good looking guys willing to fuck her – I mean, is it just inevitable for some women?

As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity. In Anger Management I detailed the anger men direct at themselves, not at the women who followed a natural predictable ‘flow’ of rationalizations and social conventions they can be expected to as their conditions in life dictate. Naturally any anger a man may deal with or express in this regard is always presumed to be directed towards women. A feminine dominant social order is one founded on the innate solipsism of women.

Now, before I dig in a bit deeper here, I want to make clear that while Glenn’s comment started my thinking process about this week’s topic, what I’m going to get at here isn’t a reflection on anything personal. His story of being “turned on” by a wife he believed was playing on his team is a very common one related by many a post-divorced man using the hindsight of a Red Pill lens.

I’m adding this caveat since only Glenn can really say for himself whether his mindset at the time he first met, and later married, the wife who turned on him was colored by Blue Pill idealism and / or a Beta self-perception. My guess, as with most men in his situation, was that he actually had what was a realistic expectation of a reciprocal relationship based on what he thought would be her genuine appreciation of his efforts and merits.

Betas at the Epiphany

I’ve discussed in several prior threads the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy women use in both the short and long term. What I think needs a bit more explanation is the long term effects of that strategy on the Beta man’s mindset as a result of his fem-centric conditioning.

When a woman approaches and enters into her Epiphany Phase, she has a limbic understanding that her genetic chips need to be cashed in with a man who has ‘proper’ long term provisioning potential. For the greater part, those men are at least expected by women to have a Blue Pill, Beta conditioning that will make them more compliant with, now, what’s becoming an unignorable open Hypergamy.

These are the men Sheryl Sandberg describes as,

“…someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.”

These are nice euphemisms used to describe a man willing to accept his position of powerlessness in the grand scheme of feminine-primacy and open Hypergamy for his participation in realizing women’s dominant sexual strategy.

The Beta man encountering this new found attraction convinces himself that women’s interest in him is genuine and organic. In a sense it is, but although this attraction (not to be confused with arousal) is perceived as genuine on the part of women, it’s an attraction born of necessity. That necessity is the need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.

A Beta at the Epiphany phase believes his ship has finally come in and his self-righteous AFC strategy of patience and perseverance will be rewarded. The social conventions at the time make him believe he’s to be more lauded for ‘forgiving’ a woman’s past, irrespective of whether he can expect praise for looking past her misgivings.

The Alpha Widow or carousel riding wife-to-be may then convince herself that she in fact actually sees an Alpha potential, or a potential for long term success, in ‘settling’ on that Beta in the long term. While I have had men relate horror stories about women knowing that they were settling and being insecure about their futures before or at the time of their wedding, I’m going to suggest that this foreknowledge is rarely a conscious aspect of women’s insight. “Turning” on their husband-to-be later in is life rarely a preconceived plan, but it is a predictable outcome for men who persist in a Beta mindset throughout their marriages.

Getting Her Settled Best

Saving the Best continues to be a seminal post on Rational Male, not the least of which because so many men could relate to the experience. However, this may not have been the experience of discovering a sexual past his wife had no intention of ever allowing him to share with her , but rather the expectation men have of receiving a woman’s ‘sexual best’ in marriage. That may not amount to the sexual experimentation she had in her Party Years, but for a Beta who believes his patience and virtue are to be rewarded at long last it is an expectation of enjoying the same or better sexual urgency his wife-to-be shared with her past lovers.

That Beta believes it’s his turn, because why else would a woman commit to a lifetime investment in a man she didn’t think was her best option?

Remember, during the Epiphany Phase a woman’s rationale for choosing the Beta for a long term investment is because she’s “experienced it all” and finally “knows better than to keep dating the Bad Boys who don’t appreciate her.” Thus the Beta believes he must be the best option for her by virtue of her investment in that belief.

And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, “…in time, nothing’s sexier.”

For the Alpha Widow marrying the Beta-in-waiting, the comparison of his sexual appeal with prior lovers conflicts with her need to finalize the long term security she couldn’t with her previous Alphas (or the men she perceived as Alpha). Thus comes reserved, self-restrained and self-conscious sex with her new Beta provider. She knows that sex with her Beta lacks the intensity of her prior lovers, but falls back on her Epiphany Phase rationalizations that she’s “doing it for the right reasons this time”.

That right reason being of course getting pregnant to further consolidate long term provisioning.

Our Beta simply lacks the same sexual experience as his wife-to-be to know any better (unless of course he finds proof of that experience later), but he gradually suspects her progressive lack of passion, reservations and self-consciousness by comparing it to porn or some of the other women’s he’s had sex with.

Social conventions abound for women to rely on as they become less incentivized to have sex with their Beta after the first child. Body image considerations, ‘mismatched libidos’ and “well, sex is supposed to taper off after marriage, everyone knows that” are just some of the prepackaged tropes ready for use.

The Turning

Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. The sex “reward”, the ‘cookie time for good boy’, for desired behavior or performance ‘turns’ off, or sex is used as an intermittent reward for desired behavior (i.e. Choreplay). Sex becomes a utility; a positive reinforcer for her Beta increasing his provisioning capacity rather than the true visceral enjoyment she had with her past lovers.

This new functionality sex represents to a wife becomes ‘turning’ on her husband who believed he would always be her most intimate priority. In the instance of a woman marrying her ‘Alpha Provider’ this may in fact be the case, but as with the hierarchies of love that Alpha doesn’t have the same concern with, and didn’t marry his wife under the same pre-expectations a Beta does.

For the man who persists in his Beta mindset (or the guy who regresses into that mindset) this ‘turning’ becomes more and more pronounced. The turning comes out of the bedroom and into other aspects of their relationship – finances, familial ties, her expectations of his ambitiousness, his asserting himself at work or with their mutual friends – on more and more fronts he’s compared to other men and the ghosts of the Alphas she knows or has known.

Even though the Beta is aware his children are now his wife’s true priority, his Blue Pill conditioning still predisposes him to sacrifices. Again, he meets with ready-made social conventions that shame his discontent; “Is sex all that’s important to you?” It shouldn’t be, because it’s really “what’s on the inside that counts”, but he can’t shake the feeling he’s slipping out of her respect.

This is when Beta Dad doubles down. His Blue Pill expectations of himself require an all-consuming, self-sacrificing predisposition. The horse will work harder. His wife may have lost respect for him by this point, but his sense of honor and duty press him on. He doesn’t want to be like his oppressive or non-present father was. He wants to ‘out-support’ his father’s ghost, or what he believes ‘other guys’ would do when their marriages get tough.

So he waits it out, but she’s ‘turned’ on him by this point. It wasn’t planned, but all of his martyr-like determination only makes her that much more resentful for having settled on this Beta. After a certain stressing point, her disinterest or indignation goes even beyond his capacity to stay committed to a losing investment. These are the guys who tell me, “Damn Rollo, where where you when I was 30? I wish I’d known then what I know now.”

Do all marriages and relationships follow this schedule? No, but it’s important that men know the signs, understand what’s really expected of them and know when they’re being settled on despite all a woman’s self-interested refutations of that. It’s important they realize that performance isn’t limited to how well they meet a woman’s expectations, but that performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself.

It’s important that he lives in his own Frame and that any woman, wife or otherwise, participates in his Frame at his pleasure. Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a preconditioned responsibility to forgive a woman’s sexual strategy while still being gushingly appreciative that she chose him to settle on.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Black Poison Soul
Black Poison Soul
6 years ago

Cannot decide if GWADFT is a “Perfect Housewife” or a “Red Pill Woman” attempting to sleaze her way into our good graces for some ulterior motive.

Either way, it’s suspect that she hangs out at all with the beaten dogs-and-red-headed-stepchildren of the Manosphere.

Bluepillprofessor
Bluepillprofessor
6 years ago

@BangoTango: “Beta men should have one requirement and one requirement only before marriage. That his girl friend/potential bride to be fuck his brains out for at least 6 months in the most submissive way possible, fulfilling all his sex fantasies that he always had when he was young”

The problem is they will do that easy. Any woman will screw 4 times a day until the wedding in order to lock in a guy. AWALT.

Great post as usual. Much to consider.

stuttie
6 years ago

She can kill with a smile, she can wound with her eyes She can ruin your faith with her casual lies And she only reveals what she wants you to see She hides like a child, but she’s always a woman to me She can lead you to love, she can take you or leave you She can ask for the truth, but she’ll never believe And she’ll take what you give her as long as it’s free Yeah, She steals like a thief, but she’s always a woman to me Ohhh… she takes care of herself She can wait… Read more »

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

“…need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.” This is a major plot element in the script of mid-to-late 30’s women I encounter who are (nearly universally) signaling for a lane change. The only differences seem to be the actual (cumulative) total duration of carousel riding, the extent to which the AF – and corresponding alpha widowhood lingers in their current life, e.g.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Razorwire But honestly, I’m running out of ways to play in this SMP that don’t leave me feeling like there are just no women left who aren’t looking to cash out in some way. If they’re over 25 and single, I’m more and more convinced what you’re doing is competing for the women that either: a) Chose the cock carousel over commitment b) Dropped a crotch goblin with no daddy around c) Decided shaming men for not liking fat girls is easier than hitting the gym d) Thinks she can “Have it all” after wasting her 20s on her career… Read more »

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

SunW, Thanks. I should have known, the ones that openly claim NAWALT are indeed most “like that”. But she is quite lovely. Thoughtful. And has kept her body toned. A very kind woman. I dig her. She’s god a few wild hairs I’m sure. Has that unfortunate blend of SIW and needy, depending on the talking points. Wants some kind of marriage-like existence, yet can’t get past her solipsism to do things like learn to cook. Like most of her sisters, can’t recognize that wanting a strapping man who runs a tight ship – and is likely well into his… Read more »

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

@Razorwire I’ve had this with a few girls. One girl who stays over at my place once and cooks for me and wants to see me….doesnt’ kiss me. “I dont’ know you yet….” “There’s so many other girls…” So instead of a huge ultimatum I just slowly started to withdraw attention and went on holiday without regular contact. In my mind…I want her to matter less because then she’ll invariably come back. Also, like you after several dates and still she’s turning her head…well….I may be in a situation where my game is so good otherwise it feels odd. But… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “There is no way to win.”

Correction. There is no nice way to win.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@gwadft, re: “Its complicated.”

I know women try to complicate it, but the root idea is quite simple. If she submits then they both win, if she does not submit then they both lose.

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

walawala: “Girls “change” when there’s a stimulus in the environment….they go beta if they feel there’s no challenge. They panic when they like you a lot and then suddenly you’re not their “friend” anymore. That sudden withdrawl of comfort is what sparks the attraction.” Yes. I have seen this with her previously. When I got busy with work, bit of travel, and didn’t force my way into her life- more or less left it up to her to make our time a priority, I got the panic. But also that she liked me “more than she should”. She felt terribly… Read more »

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

jf12 lol. So true. I’ve learned (through hard experience of course) that removing most of the niceness from the equation is a huge lift to my game. So when I refer to the win, or conversely the loss, I’m also referring to how difficult it is to remain true to myself in terms of how I want to engage women. IOW, the SMP – the way women seem to want it, forces hand. It wants to pull toward darkness. Women are adamant about pressing their needs and wants to the forefront of every aspect of “dating” within the SMP even… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Dropped all my plates at this point as I didn’t find any of them attractive enough to have around for my birthday this weekend. Gonna treat myself to a day at the track in a Lambo and have a few high speed grins. Planning to start monk mode for a bit, hit the gym hard, revise my wardrobe, and by summer be living in new digs. Debating where to seek out a social circle to add as well. I feel like I understand game and plate spinning well enough now that I need to try a lot more approaches after… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “how difficult it is to remain true to myself in terms of how I want to engage women”

Amen to that.

re: “it is exceedingly difficult to do so”

Not just for your specific issue, but as a general mantra for all dealings with women, keep in mind that the key tenet of sexual conflict is that it is to the female’s advantage to make sex more costly for the male than it needs to be. Almost always she’s bluffing; almost always she’s a whole lot easier than she wants you to think.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ Glenn re: “Really, nobody wants to hear about some divorced guys woes.” “Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and you weep alone.” The last time I woke up alone after a failed suicide attempt sums up all I have to say about this. Not even crying, just feeling numb and waking up alone in a room after failing to kill yourself and not having anyone to ask you if you’re okay, or hug you, or respond to anything. Nothing. Just staring at the ceiling by yourself wondering what the point is in even being alive if life… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong, re: “I need to try a lot more approaches after the changes.”

Why not before/during the changes? Even in monk mode you can do a closing of your choice.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Softek, re: “the rejection for girls is BASICALLY nonexistent, which is part of why they can’t handle it”

If we accept as given that the female’s role is to reject as many men as she can, then it all makes sense, and maybe it’ll make your male role (which is to overcome as much potential rejection as you can) more palatable.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

Just be wary, “Splendid Isolation” can rapidly turn into “Splendid Masturbation.” I would still much rather be spinning plates than going full MGTOW, even with women’s bullshit. I agree with when Glenn said he thought MGTOW was a kind of “rage quit.” Just make women sign a liability waiver that you’re not responsible for any addictions they might develop to your cock after you hook up with them. This day and age you gotta go legal to protect yourself. How fucking hilarious would that be? These girls all wanted it so bad they signed waivers showing full consent, that I… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12

Numerous reasons. I need downtime, I’d rather focus on me right now, I want new living arrangements to bring them home to, my current haunts are awful for chicks so I need to locate new ones, I feel plateaued on the attractiveness of chicks I can pull right now, and I’ve started to notice a desire to expand my social circle more acutely lately. Plus I want to use my spare time on a couple business ideas.

TL;DR: I’m worth more of my time than the women I’m meeting are right now.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Given a female’s opposition, resistance, reluctance, hostility, etc., what should a male’s strategy be, assuming he wants to overcome that opposition?
1) Appeasement. This is intended to lessen her resistance. This is what women and society recommend. It seems to be the easier way, but it doesn’t actually work. The appeaser is always disappointed, and the appeasee is never satisfied.
2) Aggravation. This is intended to shatter her resistance. Agreeing and amplifying her opposition is just the first step.

Emma the Emo
6 years ago

Badpainter,

I liked your date story. I think a man asking “what’s in it for me?” about a marriage is similar to a woman asking the same thing about casual sex. Nothing objective is there for you, but sometimes people do it because “it felt right”. That’s the only reason.

There is also “want to have children” reason, but that’s besides the point.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

That which separates us can become that which connects us.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

Just be sure to thank me when you guys are running businesses getting paid $4,500 an hour to fuck “Strong Independent Women” that can’t find guys to treat them like the sluts they really want to be treated like anywhere else. But by the time this is up and running, most women will be able to afford that price tag with ease, if things keep going the way they’ve been going. If I wrote this into a book it would be so diabolically offensive, it would probably become infamous overnight. Book burnings are good publicity. Can you imagine the uproar… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago
Reply to  Softek

@softie – That book has already been written. The Game by Neil Strauss. Fucking great read if you haven’t.

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

jf12 “Almost always she’s bluffing; almost always she’s a whole lot easier than she wants you to think.” No doubt. In the theme of open hypergamy, AF/BB, etc. this is the case in every single woman I have dated over the past 5 years. At first I thought it was just the young women, the ones in their 20’s getting burned out on hookup culture – who wanted to be led into rainbows and sunsets with their steady. Then I thought it was the epiphany girls who had “finally figured out what they wanted in a man” in order to… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Men prefer themselves to be appeased. Especially female-aggravators i.e. alphas, who by definition have come to *expect* to be mollified by females. If you ask those alphas, they will say that women’s natural role is to be pleasing to them. And the women will agree! Thusly sexual conflict handily explains the apex fallacy.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “The tedium in having to endure these table-reads, different women, same script, is a big part of what keeps me thinking I’m stupid for not playing full-court player game, not hip-checking the table into submission from day 1 even it that means risking tilt-mode and losing my quarter.”

I’ve determined, and I am real-time deriving, that any degree of Finesse is nothing but Appeasement. To best the Kobayashi Maru pinball game, use a crowbar and sledgehammer. Don’t get pretty, get big.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “the naked hook”

A beautiful metaphor.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ Emma the Emo

You understand my position. If children are beside the point then there is no point. If marriage has any point or goal state it is in family formation, without that why would, why should anyone (any man) bother?

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

Yep. In all of what I ramble on about, the apex fallacy reared its head in every single case. Doing what (apex) men get to do, or what (apex) men do in general, which is to express and indulge their desire for sexual variety, is always named among the rationale for her AF path and/or journey of self-discovery that led her to me. And I’m becoming convinced that if I want to maintain the perception of being at/near the apex of men, I need to fully adopt – live into – their expectations. Which is just a way of saying:… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

“If you love me right, we fuck for life
On and on and on” (Tove Lo, side note: this is on the radio with f…)

@razorwire

what is it you want out of the relationships?

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

Badpainter,, “If marriage has any point or goal state it is in family formation, without that why would, why should anyone (any man) bother?” Indeed. All women squirm when the cost/benefit or purpose of marriage is cut open from the man’s perspective. The whole thing can be traced back to the primacy of female sexual optimization. My favorite question is: how can marriage and no-fault divorce even coexist in the same entity? Isn’t it just a more expensive version of “dating”? But then why even “date” a woman who has just f*cked men for fun in the past? Why go… Read more »

eon
eon
6 years ago

“It’s the unspoken admission that women only want to want, they only desire to receive. … Anything a man wants has to be taken, or compelled, forced, stolen, coerced, or manipulated from them. Nothing will be given freely.” Nothing will be given freely, unless it makes her happy to do so. One prerequisite for that desire to serve is a feeling of absolute certainty and security in her position as his property, which is a state that must be established from the very beginning and maintained with complete consistency. And this state can only exist with respect to a man… Read more »

horrenbrand
6 years ago

nice topic and I agree- marriage is not worth it. Kids- well, this is personal but never ever do it for the women or ‘out from your love to her’ (most stupid reason IMO) or because she says ‘that’s what mature men do’

by a strange coincidence I’ve recently wrote one about marriage
https://redmalehummingbird.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/marriage-and-kids-a-fairytale/

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ Glenn I haven’t. I can’t believe I haven’t looked it up though, I heard about it months and months ago. Just read the synopsis now. Looks great, although for some reason thinking about all this stuff is literally making me nauseous today. Just reading over that little summary made me feel like I was gagging myself with a cold spoon. On the plus side, this has exponentially increased my appreciation for “male bonding” — like my friend was busting my balls ALL NIGHT the other night. And I’d give it right back. Basically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH0V9dQ-owE So that was refreshing. Reminded… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Eon – “In a complementary relationship, both get more than they give, because they each get what they cannot create for themselves.”

For the man, other than giving live birth, what would that be? I have yet to find anything I want or need, that actually exists, that I can’t create or obtain for myself by spending extra time at labor and simply buying or contracting for services.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@bp Just kids, though if the rest of the first world follows France even that benefit will disappear. After all, how can having your own kids be seen as a benefit when you’re not even allowed to verify they’re yours? Spin plates for sex (because apparently expecting it in LTR/marriage is “patriarchy”), and for emotional fulfillment get a dog plus some good male friends. Provision for yourself because you’re a man. Learn to cook for yourself because women can’t/won’t do it anymore (patriarchy again). Actually now that I think about it every time one of the past benefits of marriage… Read more »

eon
eon
6 years ago

Eon: “In a complementary relationship, both get more than they give, because they each get what they cannot create for themselves.” Badpainter: “For the man, other than giving live birth, what would that be? …” . Badpainter, One possibility is that a woman can be a positive emotional catalyst, which is mentally, and especially physiologically, extremely beneficial to a man. Such a catalyst is independent input, and thus can only be provided by someone else. And since it is intrinsically intimate, for a heterosexual man, it can only come from a woman. This “emotional support” is something that many commenters… Read more »

Anon32
Anon32
6 years ago

Women expect and demand more of men than they do of themselves. After learning about the red-pill, I’ve given up on women, marriage and children. I’ve seen plenty of bad behavior from women, and I had thought that I just needed to find the right, good woman. I’ve remained single and childless so far (early 40’s), and I only aim for spinning plates and getting what I can get now. I will focus on my hobbies, education, male friends, and my business endeavors. Can someone convince me that marriage and finding someone is doable with this knowledge? How do you… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “The reality that not all men actually want to flex that kind of power across a wide swath of women is irrelevant. Being “different” in this regard only works to lower my value in her eyes.

Which is why the SMP seems to force my hand, the one with the hammer.”

Yes. Hypergamy doesn’t care about a man’s lack of desire to act more alpha, to swing a bigger hammer.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Anon32, re: “Can someone convince me that marriage and finding someone is doable with this knowledge?”

No, sorry. It’s virtually impossible in this climate. Approximate the only way to find women worth marrying is to be a bad man not worth marrying.

re: “How do you men that remain married manage?”

If we have hope for this life only, we would be of all men most miserable.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@eon, re: “A woman nurturing her Alpha man nurtures his strength”

Wrong word. Admiring his biceps is approximately the opposite of nurturing him.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@eon

One possibility is that a woman can be a positive emotional catalyst, which is mentally, and especially physiologically, extremely beneficial to a man.

Unicorns can fill this role. For the rest of the women available to modern men (read “damn near all of them”), this benefit is a idealistic load of horse shit. It’s simply not available.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong, re: “Actually now that I think about it every time one of the past benefits of marriage for men comes up, it’s written off as part of the patriarchy bogeyman.”

Well then, I have an assignment for you. Every time you think about one of the past benefits of marriage for men, write it down. We should have a list.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “BE the man who expresses and indulges his natural desire for sexual variety.”

This is indeed what works with women.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Razorwire, re: “Whats in it for me?” Same assignment. I’ve asked this question enough, so I should give it a shot, with a twist. We will define marriage for this purpose as a woman having sex exclusively with a man. What would be in it for me if female reproductive strategies were subordinated to male reproductive strategies? What would Marriage For A Man look like? I think it looks like a giant harem. He has sex with a woman during her receptive fertile time, then he moves on to the next woman. He never has to deal with any of… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ eon

I’ll take your word for it. And I admit that sounds nice.

However, nothing in my experience or observation suggests such a thing exists. From your explanation it seems the men who can obtain this would those who have no need for it. For the rest of us it seems a fragile luxury we can ill afford, and can’t rely on maintaining once obtained. In fact I doubt I’d even be able to recognize it at this point without dismissing it as yet another effort to con me.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Re: being the rock

Wave: why are you always so hard? (cue tears)

Rock: shut up

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

What’s in it for me?

Since the best men can have multiple women, what can possibly be in it for me to strive to be the best man *other* than the having of multiple women? If I’m to strive to be the best man to her, why doesn’t she have to strive to be multiple women to me?

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ Badpainter – I’m with you. I’m having a harder and harder time imagining partnering up with a woman. I’m actually starting to explore partnering up with a man in terms of living arrangements as I want more social interaction at home, I do better with people around. I can partner with a man in an explicit way that simply isn’t possible with women. I’ve also been discussing retiring with some of my other guy friends who are single too. Cheap version if we all are broke in retirement is Ecuador, better is the 1.2 million dollar lake house I… Read more »

ReticentPill
ReticentPill
6 years ago

@ Badpainter

“I’ll take your word for it. And I admit that sounds nice.

However, nothing in my experience or observation suggests such a thing exists.”

Yup. Apex Fallacy at work. I’m reminded of my boss bragging about his new car to an unpaid intern, though he didn’t intend it that way.

Though what eon said actually makes a lot of sense to me, it’s not everyman’s script.

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@Razorwire, I’m right there with you. What else can we do though? I can spin plates easily now. I have a plate coming over tonight and texted three to see who responded first. If the other two respond then I can tell them sorry I made other plans and go dark until I get 2-3 texts from them without response or I want them to come over or go to a comedy club with me or something. This isn’t how I want life to be but this is how it is. This is the best I can figure out right… Read more »

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@Glenn, I have been overweight, underweight, and jacked at various times in my life. I am not what I have been as I have 20 pounds of muscle to go but I’m still far above the vast majority of men. I think with the unleashing of hypergamy your body is extremely important. There is no way I would get the plates as young as they are without an extremely careful diet and spending 3 days a week at the gym. Took me 18 months to strip off 50 pounds of fat and add back 15 pounds of muscle. It was… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago
Reply to  StringsofCoins

@ StringsofCoins – Thanks for this and I get it. The more I observe what gets the attention of hot young women, it’s clear that it’s looks. Not necessarily age – a very fit, nicely attired man walks into a room and the young hotties notice – at 30 or 50. And of course, one has to have a confident demeanor and swagger and smirk – i have all those. But without being a certain level of fit, I’m just not even in the game. This is the other thing I’m working on. While in Vegas a couple of weeks… Read more »

anon
anon
6 years ago

This blog is great and this post is particularly on point.

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

“what is it you want out of the relationships?” I want more than the modern woman (apparently) has (is willing) to offer. Is that what you were looking for? Or more along the lines of the unreasonable, the madonna-whore expectations wrapped in “double-standards”? Or something like that? I want the same things most men want. I know my value – at least well enough to understand what that means in terms of a female counterpart. I know and have demonstrated through action my willingness to subordinate many a-wish-list for other attributes I value more for the long-run. I’ve done same… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ razorwire

Beautifully stated. And me too.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

“husbands of a higher mate value may avoid employing these [mate retention] behaviors as they may lead to a loss of esteem from their wives.”
http://www.zeigler-hill.com/uploads/7/7/3/2/7732402/holden_et_al._2014.pdf

Holden et al. 2014. Husband’s Esteem Predicts His Mate Retention Tactics. Evolutionary Psychology 12(3): 655-672.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Re: consolation bracket

A clear sign you’re a loser is when your offered a slightly used scratch and dent family in lieu of the real thing.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

“and I want a thin, low N* woman who is kind, feminine, funny, nurturing, grateful, generous, fit, smart, strong but not rigid, silly but not frivolous, adventurous but not flighty, modest but not mousy, grounded, curious, sane, and so on” that’s actually much like I wanted. My wife is thin, low N* woman who is kind, funny, nurturing, grateful, fit, smart, strong but not rigid, silly but not frivolous, adventurous but not flighty, modest but not mousy, grounded, curious, and sane. She is not generous but being thrifty she doesn’t spend much on herself. She is a bit of a… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

Interesting to consider this post Rollo. It kind of says that female justifications for their choice of partner follow a rollercoaster path, where new thoughts are constantly excused and the past immediately forgotten. It says that women are frankly incapable of correctly choosing, and wholly appreciating that decision until menopause. It says to me that their burden of choice is actually the more difficult burden when set beside the burden of performance.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Female mate retention strategies are, basically, Appearance Enhancement and Monopolize Mate’s Time. That’s all they’ve got. Males, unfortunately, engage in Resource Display and Submission and Debasement to retain females.

Kaighobadi, F., Shackelford, T.K., & Buss, D.M. (2010). Spousal mate retention in the newlywed year and three years later. Personality and Individual Differences, 48, 414-418.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

A search for “female mate retention” strategies in humans turns up essentially no results. Other than vague attempts at being reasonably nice, which can be redefined as merely ceasing to drive the male away (e.g. fewer shit tests), human females DO NOT engage in any actual strategies to retain male mates. Surprised? If you’re male, you’re probably not surprised. Brewer, Gayle; Hamilton, Victoria. 2014. Female mate retention, sexual orientation, and gender identity. Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, Vol 8(1), 12-19. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/h0097245 Short version: “Retention behaviors were most and least frequently used by homosexual and heterosexual women, respectively.” The grand takeaway: she’s NOT… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Hence, to bring my little series back on topic, when she turns on you and begins to try to drive you away, then do it: go away: get another woman (to some extent). Not only doesn’t she really care, she is TRYING to drive you away.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

When mated to high value males, human females behave like they figure he’s already got other women, so they behave like they don’t really care about mate retention. And when mated to low value males, human females really really don’t care about mate retention, obviously.

It’s all so easy to understand, as soon as you start with sexual conflict.

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

Redlight, Your wife sounds like the proverbial catch. I don’t mind a bit of tomboy myself. I grew up in the woods so its familiar territory – to a point. Your point is taken. Knowing what I want is the starting point. Holding true to that as well. I agree that marriage is pointless if having children is not the primary goal of that relationship. I’m on the fence regarding children. Not just due to the risk and legal aspects of marriage 2.0, but the reality of my age and of finding a suitable partner to take on such a… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@StringsofCoins, re: “I’m not even sure how to have an LTR anymore.”

HOW is easy: the male engages in Resource Display and Submission and Debasement. “Let me hold your purse for you honey. In fact, I’ll fill it with money while I hold it.” The real question is WHY.

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

@Strings. Great stuff. All of it. I wouldn’t say I spin easily, as the residual from deep blue-pill conditioning reigns me in too often, but I will admit that with RP and age, I’ve managed to reduce my pursuit costs to nil. And I am lucky enough that I can generate options fairly quickly with modest effort. Don’t get me wrong. Nothing comes easy for me, but I’m lucky in the sense that my 6-12 hours of physical training each week alongside my reading, research, and cultivation of hobbies pays off perhaps easier than it does for other gents. My… Read more »

jacklabear
6 years ago

@ Glenn:

“I’m set up to make this the best year of my life in a very long time and that’s due to all my hard work and focus and keeping my eye on the prize it’s what it’s all about.”

What is the prize that you’re working so hard for?

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@jf, Yes I could turn into a new BB for some CC rider so she can have everything I have worked for. I would like to have two additional children as I always wanted three, and was planning a second with my ex-wife when I discovered her infidelity. One thing I have always had trouble understanding is that for the five years we lived together (two years dating before that) she did not appear to be cheating on me and as far as I know did not. But after we got married she started hitting up an old boyfriend on… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: mate retention

Ok, so tell me if I’ve got it now. Females’ vestigial version of mate retention is only this: female behavior intended to induce male mate retention.

The only thing she really cares about is you not abandoning her; she doesn’t care about other women per se. And the way she gauges whether you are going to abandon her (or not) is by your mate retention: i.e. whether you try to keep her away from other males.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “Also a variety of props I’ll use to peacock.”

I suggest dangling something ornamental from your belt, in the front. I’m perfectly serious. The idea is to give women an excuse to gaze at your crotch area. You can thank me later, like tomorrow, after you try it.

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@Rollo, Thanks for the refresher. Perhaps I do need to just accept that this is as good as it gets. As Glen says in my older age I can move in with a few of my male friends. I have four left from our childhood group of ten. Most guys either got wifed up and their wives tore them from the group by threat of withholding sex or at some point they showed very poor character and were ostracized. Three of those four have vowed to never get married. I should have listened to them but ONEitis is a hell… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Stringsofcoins – “It is nice to hold out hope for the mythical unicorn.”

Hope is just more way to be disappointed.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Potential crotch bangles for StringsofCoins:
1. Plugged nickel. A backstory would further enhance this, and may be the best overall.
2. A mini disco ball. I saw one a while back at a store, intended for a woman’s charm bracelet. It would be absolutely perfect soldered onto the belt buckle or the zipper pull. Yes I’m serious.
3. Other charm things. But manly, not too cute. Tiny dice may be the limit.

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

And alpha agents of righteous karma… Looking at where I am at now I do not think any man should even consider offering any woman any commitment until he is a minimum of 30 years old. It also helps explain the shit tests I have received from friends and family (especially women) when they become aware that not only am I having a sexual relationship with women over ten years younger then me but I am doing so without giving them any commitment. One of my sisters harpied to my brother to get him to tell me that she is… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Keys. Duh (slaps head).

eon
eon
6 years ago

@ jf12 eon: “A woman nurturing her Alpha man nurtures his strength, not his weaknesses.” [Brody] jf12: “Wrong word. Admiring his biceps is approximately the opposite of nurturing him.” Trying to confuse or ridicule my point is a bad idea. Have you forgotten that I was quoting Brody’s further effort to explain to you, unsuccessfully, that a woman is not designed to nurture her man in the same way, or for the same reason, that she nurtures her infant? Anyone who is interested in reading jf12’s attempt to present weakness as virtue, and as something that could induce desire in… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “Perhaps my actions are inadvertent dread game in my brothers marriage?”

I do think it probable that women would try to get their men to avoid seeing the possibilities for dread. That being said, my own brother’s dread game didn’t help my marriage.

Relatedly, one of the very few hits for “female mate retention” mentions coalitional tactics.
https://twitter.com/rationalmale/status/504298494593478656

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “It is not possible for a woman to turn a man into an Alpha”

It is always possible for any woman to treat any man as an Alpha. Period.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Women nurture an alpha the exact same way women *nurture* anything they nurture. Women’s bag of tricks is extremely limited.

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@jf,

I love this idea. Great way to turn flirting sexual without being overt. I will give this a try!

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Badpainter, re: “Hope is just more way to be disappointed.”

I’ve heard something like “There’s a thousand ways to be wrong, but only one way to be right.”

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Probably overheard at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch: “Let me nurture that for you, big boy.”

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

eon – “A man with the necessary potential can transition into an Alpha, but he must do so alone, without the help of women, or men.” Then how is this emotional support a benefit of greater worth than a mint on a pillow? If I do all the work myself, which means by necessity ignoring the doubters and critics, then why is this valuable if it is not actually helpful to the process? I obviously don’t need it to make the journey, why do I want it at the end? It seems like opportunistic love which is of no actual… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

No 25 year old woman is asking these questions about herself. Whether or not a 35 y.o. guy is contemplating how he can be a better husband isn’t even an afterthought to a 30 y.o. woman. It’s only when they get to 36 – 40 does it even occur to a woman to ask a man, what it is he wants from a relationship, because her waning SMV is entirely unignorable at that point. I remember when my wife became pregnant with our first kid at age 29 she became much more sensitive to me. It was a noticeable and… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
6 years ago

as the National Post article confirms looks are everything. alpha fucks equals looks.
and looks equals alpha fucks.
it’s simple.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

^^^^^ On the night of my 21st birthday This is what my future wife told me. “Why were you late to my parents house? It makes me so mad when you’re late.” She was disappointed in me all night. When her parents went to bed I let her have it. On the morning of my 45th birthday a couple months ago Same women, 24 years later. Here is a list of 45 things you do that I love and appreciate. She presented me with 45 cards. Each listed the real things that I do to support her and the family.… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: Ottawa study.

“survey respondents were more likely to have casual sex to “change the topic of conversation” or relieve a headache than to do it in exchange for money or drugs.”

That’s Canadia for ya.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Nathan, you can’t go by what women say since women don’t know what they mean by attractiveness. In those studies that have directly compared looks vs dominance for casual sex, it was dominant men all the way, not facial attractiveness.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Nathan
as the National Post article confirms looks are everything. alpha fucks equals looks. and looks equals alpha fucks. it’s simple.

Girls don’t know what they want until you show them. Nobody wanted an Ipad until after Apple showed it to the public. Girls respond to good game whether it shows up in the list or not. If you’ve got good game you can sail past many girls height/looks requirements.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Re: National Post article. Also linked is “Women twice as likely to have orgasms in committed relationships than one-night sex hookups: study”

So in addition to “looks”, it must be a lot murkier what women mean by “feels good” and “I was horny” than what men mean.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Nathan. Don’t get pretty, get big.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

“I was secretly hoping he would like me better after I gave him sexual inducements. But it didn’t work. But I won’t admit that.”

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@Rollo, Good study. I’ve found over the last year that if I don’t give women the belief or fantasy that sex with me is going to be good then they aren’t gonna bite. Talking about my exploits, while seeming counter productive at first, only makes them more eager to be another notch. And I’m sure my physical appearance plays a big part. Have had to learn to overcome shit tests about the age difference at first. Now I just never ever let it become anything to think about. I never bring up my age at all. I just let them… Read more »

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

@Nathan, If your game is good and you pull a girl into your frame you can get the sex you want. During my overweight period 11 years ago I had a lot of fun one summer with an incredibly hot 5′ 2″ 90 pound black haired beauty. We’re still friends. She’s finally getting off the CC to marry some professor. Though she has a PhD and is also a professor now. Though it’s quite clear that things would have been much easier for me and much more fun for her should I have my current body. Lose weight and get… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ StringsofCoins
Young women are looking for sex first.

If that’s true women have markedly changed since 1990.

eon
eon
6 years ago

Badpainter, eon: “A man with the necessary potential can transition into an Alpha, but he must do so alone, without the help of women, or men.” Badpainter: “Then how is this emotional support a benefit of greater worth than a mint on a pillow? If I do all the work myself, which means by necessity ignoring the doubters and critics, then why is this valuable if it is not actually helpful to the process? I obviously don’t need it to make the journey, why do I want it at the end?” Because it is helpful to processes, just not that… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

this is the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25567073

Women’s Motivations to Have Sex in Casual and Committed Relationships with Male and Female Partners

“… and suggest a high degree of similarity in motivation for women, regardless of sexual orientation or gender of partner”

note that they tend not to be that rigorous in their survey methodologies

Hobbes
Hobbes
6 years ago

Haven’t been posting much lately, but have been reading.. just wanted to chime in and say thanks to everyone .. and Rollo of course for the great comments and post. One thing Rollo: you say men in their 40s ask where were you 20yrs ago.. I say thanks you for being here now. I often get a little down on myself for not getting married and having kids.. in the end I just didn’t feel right taking the bait of exes who wanted to and always felt something was “off” and not right.. reading this post today makes me so… Read more »

kaizersoze71
6 years ago

Rollo, you hit the nail on head so many times with this one. Fellas remember this, you were a plan B never plan A. Don’t risk waste years of your labor to pay for alimony, for some girls plan B.

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[…] my entire life to the care and happiness of my family in some sort of attempt at martyrdom. This post from Rollo couldn’t possibly describe my marriage any better. My wife was on the highest […]

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ eon

Again, I’ll take your word for it.

If the time comes when I arrive at that point my ability to suspend disbelief may be completely shot, but I suppose that’s a minor side effect. If I don’t recognize it, well I never really believed in the first place. No great loss in that case.

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