Men and Suicide

Before I launch in here today I need to confess that this post has been in my drafts folder for a while now. As most of my readers are aware I’ve known two personal friends who’ve taken their own lives as a result of having their Blue Pill conditioned beliefs set them on a path to self destruction. One of the more important parts of my charter when I started writing was to reach the men who were at their wits’ end in figuring out how to deal with their personal, romantic or married lives that had until then been directed by what their Blue Pill acculturation and their understanding of intersexual dynamics were molded to be. Since I started and stopped and then restarted this topic again there have been a few recent developments in my perspective on men taking their own lives as a result of the Blue Pill’s influence on them.

All of this really began about two months ago while I was engaging in a debate (or what passes for debate) on Twitter with a very unsympathetic woman who thought she’d set me straight about why it is men choose to take their own lives at a far greater rate than women. As it stands today, men are statistically between 4 and 5 times more likely than women to kill themselves. For most Red Pill aware men this is a fairly well known stat and one that gets quoted often enough when women trot out their own stats about abuse or whatever issue they think it is that MRA are ‘confused’ about. They usually get owned when this sort of back and forth goes down, but I’m always drawn to the comparative issues women think are equitable to that of men losing their lives.

Men’s disposability is also nothing new to the manosphere. Sperm is cheap, eggs are scarce and men are expected to sacrifice their lives for the security and betterment of women even in the most patriarchal of prior social orders. It’s always interesting to me that issues of mandatory male conscription into the military (potential death) and the unignorable high male suicide rates are something women still won’t accept as being a pretty raw deal for men. Women’s innate solipsism will still compel women to find some “yeah, but;…” rationalization for men’s disposability. Whenever I bring something like this up the reflexive presumption is that I’m bemoaning men’s victim status for being disposable. However, it’s impossible to discuss male disposability without such a connotation. My issues isn’t one of seeking some equitable disposability for women, but rather it’s drawing attention to the way women react and rationalize away their own part in that disposability.

True Powerlessness

I covered a lot of this in Chivalry vs. Altruism, so I won’t belabor that here, but I will point out the inherent power imbalance in this disposability. I’ve stated in the past that true power is not the control we can exert over the lives of others, but rather the extent to which we have control over the direction of our own lives. When we discuss issues of power between men and women the real, ultimate, loss of that control is in the context of our deaths.

There is no greater powerlessness for men than a lack of control over our own disposability.

Again, this isn’t some cry of victimhood for men – I happen to believe there’s an evolved component in the male psychological firmware that actually predisposes us to sacrificing ourselves in lieu of the security of our women and children. That’s not so much altruism as it is an inborn subroutine for protecting women that triggers in life-threatening situations. When a mass shooter opens fire indiscriminately at a crowd of people it is the men, not the women, who instinctively put their bodies between that gun and women or children, even the one’s they don’t personally know.

In the bigger scope of things, men will always be more disposable than women, and on some level of consciousness women’s hindbrains instinctively understand this. As such, women’s conscious process must find ways to reconcile this understanding in order for them to move on from men’s sacrifices. Sometimes this can manifest in the War Brides phenomenon, but I would argue that in today’s social learning environment of mass media, instant gratification of women’ solipsism and feminine-primary social order, this reconciliation takes some even uglier turns. Today, women have become very efficient in consoling each other’s solipsistic rationalizing of men’s sacrifices. In this environment of default female victimization and presumed oppression even men’s ultimate sacrifice, men’s ultimate powerlessness in their own deaths, cannot ever be consciously or unconsciously acknowledged in a state of fempowerment.

While I had this debate it occurred to me that even men’s suicides could never be attributed to anything less than their own ‘male egos’ by women, thus making them victims of their conditioning into “toxic” masculinity. Essentially, women were arguing that men would put a noose around their necks because they were socially conditioned to do so. Their suicide rate was attributable to their self-pity and inability to be ‘real men’ as some nebulous toxic masculinity had predefined for them. I thought this was kind of ironic when you compare this reasoning to the narrative shift away from ‘toxic’ masculinity to masculinity itself is toxic. This is really a stupid argument when you consider that it’s just another social convention used to absolve women of the guilt associated with men’s sacrifices. Men are hardwired for self sacrifice, but likewise women had need to evolved psychological adaptations to help them clear the red from their life’s ledger in this respect.

So, in the end, it helps if women can fall back on social conventions that put the associated guilt of men’s sacrifices back on the men themselves. Chivalry and traditional masculinity are fine when they serve the Feminine Imperative, but if a man actually gets killed or kills himself as part of that, well, that’s on him then. And this is what I was beginning with in this debate; there will always be a desire for absolution of women’s guilt or complicity in the deaths of men. I should also add that in terms of war and men being drafted women regularly default to the same asinine presumption that if women were running the world that there would be no wars. I won’t dignify that with any deeper analysis than to say that this too is one more (feeble) way of looking for absolution in the sacrifices men make to facilitate women’s reality.

Suicide Solution

That still left the question, why do men take their own lives in such alarmingly high numbers compared to women? I had to do a bit of research on this, but the demographics for male suicide today show some patterns. 7 in 10 suicides are men (majority white) between the ages of 45 and 65. As expected from gynocentric media, the primary reason always cited is men’s so called stubbornness in seeking out psychiatric help before they attempt suicide – again absolving women’s influence of any complicity – but ignoring what would motivate men, and this demographic in particular, to suicide. Again, there’s no attempt to understand the underlying reasons for male suicide, only a stereotypically easy ‘male-stupid’ answer to absolve women’s complicity in it.

There’s a lot to consider and be sensitive of when it comes to male suicide, but I’m going to speculate about a few reasons here coming from a Red Pill perspective. At no other time in western history has there ever been a generation of more purposeless men. From an evolved psychological perspective, men need a function. We are innate idealists. We look outward at the world and like to imagine what could be possible. I believe there is also an innate part of our evolved mental firmware that predisposes us to problem solving and improvisation, and much of that comes as an adaptation to women’s own innate need for men who can display cues of competency.

In Competency I made the case for women’s attraction to men displaying signals of competency, confidence, mastery and creative intelligence as a selected-for survival adaptation. In short, our competency in life, whether stemming from physical prowess, social dominance or creative intelligence is integrally linked with our reproductive success as well as overall life success.

However, at no other time in history has men’s competency been so devalued and so debased; other than perhaps in terms of physical prowess and accommodating the short term (Alpha Fucks) breeding imperatives of women. At no other time in (western) history has the equity in what a man can provide or create or solve been so implicitly unnecessary or superfluous to women. When we consider the rates of college enrollment and graduation of women compared to that of men, when we consider the practical problems that men used to solve, our utility has never been less needed – or at least that’s the zeitgeist of today.

We read about how men need to accept this new social reality – that our need for purpose and function is no longer needed or as valued – and we need to change our headspace about it as if it were something men might simply turn off. This is the result of equalist beliefs that anything gender-specific is something learned rather than the innate firmware we were born with. But we cannot simply change our minds about needing a function. We evolved to be problem solvers, women talk, men do, but now we are expected to accept that men are obsolete.

Loss of Utility

In Relational Equity I made a case for men investing too much of their egos into what intrinsic (and extrinsic) value they believe their respective women ought to appreciate about themselves. Under the old books, old social contract this equity may have had some conditional value to women, but as a buffer against Hypergamy today there is very little a man might consider value-added equity (unless it’s exceedingly rare or exceedingly valued) as a hedge against Hypergamy. Before any defeatist critics tell me how not all women are like that, yes, I get it, there are a lot of variables to consider here, but the equation and the reality doesn’t change – relational equity, overall, is no insurance against Hypergamy. It is also no insurance against women’s security and providership needs being met by resources that come from outside that relationship. I’m not considering this because I’m trying to depress any man, but it is vitally necessary to consider when we look at reasons why 45-65 year old men are predisposed to higher rates of suicide and higher rates of alcoholism and opioid abuse.

I would argue that a major contributing factor to high male suicide rates finds its origins in men’s need for purpose, function and accomplishment during this phase of life. Every day I read an article about how men my own age are dropping out of social discourse. I mentioned a Boston Globe article about just this phenomenon in Male Control. In some respects I can understand that despite the unprecedented connectivity we enjoy today men really don’t seek out bonds with other men. This is primarily due to the fact that men need a common purpose in order to form these bonds. Again, this is just how we’re wired. Women intentionally schedule time to simply interact with their same-sex friends just for the sake of communicating and enjoying the act of communicating. Men need function or a common purpose to come together. We need an activity or a problem to solve and then we communicate and form bonds.

Women talk, men do. This is a well studied fact; our brains and, by extension, social networks largely center on purpose and function. Now, lets presume that in spite of having literally all the information in the world at our finger tips we remove all need for the utility that men are wired to provide to not just women, but the larger scope of Society. We get a generation of men on the outside looking in. Only the most creative, resourceful and motivated of men can really utilize, much less master, all that this information has to offer him. And even a portion of those men can really see past the antipathy of their supposed obsolescence to do something truly meaningful or masterful. As the saying goes, most men live lives of quiet desperation, but in the modern era these men are demonstrably useless. And I mean that in a functional sense; once a Beta man has been wrung of his utility to women, he ceases to be able to convince his hindbrain that he can build, improvise or solve things.

Once a man is stripped of his usefulness, once it’s made clear that all of the equity he believed would support his relationship has been erased after so long, men will still resort to practical, deductive solutions. That solution may be suicide when weighed with the prospect of having to rebuild himself in a new context; and even if he did would he just be building a new ‘him’ based on his old belief set?

When my brother in-law committed suicide it seemed to me at the time to be the most logical end he would come to. He was a man very steeped in Blue Pill ideals, but he was also a man who prided himself on what he could do – and if he didn’t know how to do something he was always a fast learner. He literally built his life, and expectations of a future life, around the relational equity he believed defined him as a man. He was very invested in the old books, old social contract that rooted a man’s attractiveness and quality in what it was he could do. What he built for himself and his wife defined his identity.

All of that 20+ years of building equity and an identity based on it was erased for him in the space of about six months. But it was more than the 20 years he’d been saving, building, solving and refining, it was a perceived future he believed would be lived out for the rest of his life that got erased.

To me, at that time, his suicide made absolutely perfect sense from a male-deductive logic perspective. What didn’t make sense was all of the endless rationalizations I heard from his family, friends, his kids, his Ex (my now widowed sister in-law) about why they thought he went through with it when it was plain for anyone who wanted to confront the truth to see. A lot of these rationales were almost verbatim the same that the article I linked used. “If only men would reach out when they have suicidal thoughts”, any and every rationale that might absolve his Ex of the guilt, and still more that were meant to console her (he must’ve been mental ill) though in the end she really didn’t need it.

My brother in-law made a practical decision not an emotional one, and while I wouldn’t presume to say that a guy’s emotional state isn’t very influential in his suicide, how he comes to the decision is very much attributable to men’s deductive nature. He showed no outward signs of emotional distress. In fact, right up to his hanging himself he was in very good spirits and seemingly accepting of the fact that the wife he lived his life for was going to be leaving him soon. He was very matter of fact in a way that men are when they’ve resolved something for themselves. When a guy seems to be taking things in stride we don’t want to create a problem where we see none.

When we look in this context at the high rate of male suicide in this age demographic we begin to see how men come to this decision. Everything they’ve built up to 45-65 years of age is now debased, devalued or simply erased. All of the value and equity they’ve committed their lives to – doing the right thing according to their Blue Pill conditioning – is as if it never mattered. So they’re confronted with a choice, rebuild themselves (hopefully in a new Red Pill aware paradigm), reconstruct a new life and tough it out, or, simply, pragmatically erase themselves.

Personally, I’ve had at least two occasions where I’ve been confronted with rebuilding myself. It’s a tough prospect, make no mistake, especially when you’re Red Pill aware and understand the reality behind having to rebuild a life from scratch after so much investment in plans and projects you truly believed in when you made them. My father had to confront this rebuilding too at around 55 years of age, but rather than rebuild or kill himself I watched him slowly decay into a man I never knew could exist as my dad.

Zeroed Out

I apologize if this topic is a bit of a downer, but I think it ought to be part of any Red Pill aware man’s understanding that at many points in our lives we will be confronted with the prospects of having to rebuild ourselves. Failure, rejection and disappointment will happen for you, that’s just part of a man’s life, and it’s easy to rattle off platitudes about how many times you get back up being the measure of a man. But what I’m saying is there will be times when total reconstruction of your life will be a necessity.

You will be zeroed out at some point, and how you handle this is a much different situation than any temporary setback. This zeroing out is made all the more difficult when you confront the fact that what you believed to be so valuable, the equity you were told was what others would measure you by, was all part of your Blue Pill conditioning. At that point you need to understand that there is most definitely a hope for a better remake of yourself based on truths that were learned in the hardest way.

To end this I’m going to quote the comment of a man I met when I spoke at the 21 Convention in September. I won’t use his name, but after we talked he confessed that he was the commenter here. He’d made the trip to the convention to meet me face to face, to thank me for my work and gave me permission to use his example in a post. I won’t quote it entirely, but you can read the whole thing here. His situation is an example of, and inspiration for, everything I’ve illuminated in this essay

After a long marriage I divorced the mother of my children. A couple of years later, after some casual dating, I met a woman I would come to describe as my soulmate. I got married young – but this time, with all my infinite wisdom gained over the years – I was finally wise enough to pick a woman I was super compatible with.

We were together for a few years and even lived together. Things started out great and it was mostly smooth sailing until we moved in together – at which time I slowly allowed myself to be betaized in a slow motion, excruciating painful way.

About a month after breaking up with her I fully planned to commit suicide. I wrote a long letter explaining my rationalization and took other affirmative steps towards going through with it. About a week after I wrote the note – with D(eath) Day fast approaching – I took a break from getting my affairs in order to surf the net. I stumbled upon an Ask Reddit thread that was bad mouthing various subreddits. Some feminazi or male feminist mentioned the Red Pill subreddit as an example of a subreddit filled with craziness, and I decided to check what all of the fuss was about. Now

I’m not a religious man, but I will never rule out divine intervention. The timing of finding TRP – by complete coincidence no less – couldn’t have been more fortuitous. I stayed up all night reading the side bar – Rollo’s essays having the deepest effect on me – and everything…just…clicked….Talk about connecting the dots! Wow! It was very much like a come to Jesus moment. It was like divinity revealed secret knowledge to me just when I needed it the most – knowledge that gave me hope and very well may have saved my life. This all went down not really that long ago in actual time – but from where I metaphorically stand now it seems like an eternity.

Stay strong my friends, you can rebuild yourself even in the face of being zeroed out.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

666 comments on “Men and Suicide

  1. When I was 27, I had the bluepill shit storm. That moment when you (at first) realize that everything is bullshit and not adding up to what you believed your entire life up to that point. I had just returned to an empty home after an 8 month deployment (All my shit was there, she was not). I spent the entire night with my .45 pressed against my forehead so hard it literally left a bruise.

    What finally snapped me out of the haze was a text message from a friend, inviting me to Milwaukee to get away from the house and get my mind off of things. One simple text message. I bought my ticket immediately. Whilst I was on the internet, I typed into the search bar, “why are women such sluts?” The first result that popped up was a link to an essay you wrote here. I don’t recall exactly which particular one it was. I didn’t leave the house that day. I sat and read everything. It was like all your work had been laying in some Indiana Jones-esque tomb waiting for me to discover it. it was like we were having a face to face conversation.

    I literally flipped 180 degrees, mentally, in the span of 24 hours. I never looked back. I went to Milwaukee the next week and had an absolute blast. Its been a few years since then. I’ve never mentioned that night with the gun to anyone, I’ve never felt the need to. But after reading your essay today, I felt like sharing. Looking back now, I can’t believe I was that close to edge. I didn’t lose much in the way of money or children or anything like that, but the ego hit and nuking of my conditioning to that point shook me to my core. I think it pushes me forward harder today than I’ve ever been pushed in my life. I think it was necessary to be frank. I would still be living with a veil over my eyes. I’m much more content with life and myself than ever before.

    Anyway, thank you Rollo for the work. Wouldn’t be here without it.

  2. “I had just returned to an empty home after an 8 month deployment…”

    Hi RPTex.

    Thank you for sharing. You have friends here.

    A soldier buddy, early 90’s, came home to an empty apt. too. Not even a fork…but left the blinking Christmas tree. Who leaves just the fucking tree??

    He admitted he put his 9mm Beretta to his head many times, didn’t leave the apt, watching the lights blink, hours of on…off…on…off…on.

    Although sympathetic, it all seemed so foreign to me then. He was the nice guy, I thought her mentally ill, not status quo woman behavior.

    We became wing men soon after trolling bars and he started dating a college chick few months after the breakup. Again, though, the new so-so girl started the Betaization process. She weirded me out with her full court press and I stopped hanging out. He was getting laid and more relaxed; not my business, something was amiss tho.

    Then, I couldn’t put my finger on it. He was getting laid, she was doting, still I thought badness. I felt him being played, but didn’t know what to do.

    She knew I was secretly rooting for him to dump her and she started moving her shit in. Orbiters were still welcome, she’d play wifey to them all.

    A few weeks later he was killed by gun play. The girlfriend was splattered with his blood. Ruled an accident. Fuck.

    2 weeks later his squad leader drives to the apt to pick up some personal items. She’s there and tells the squad leader, “Tell EhIntellect to call me!”

    Not 2 weeks later she’s moved on. Jesus Fucking Christ! She didn’t pull the trigger, part of me knew she caused it.

    I didn’t hate women after that, but for years my subcomms showed otherwise.

  3. @NBTM, are you ever going to read a TRM post and understand that I’m not writing about how things should be, but rather I’m writing about how things are?

    Blue Pill conditioned guys (my former self included) do some very stupid things because they’ve been taught and conditioned to believe they are the only beliefs of a legitimate existence? Just because I write about how men are doesn’t mean I endorse their actions or the thought process that brought them to it.

    I have a very dear friend right now who’s likely going to die from cancer next year. His name is Jes and he’s 33 years old. One of the most talented musicians I’ve known (and I’ve known a lot). The guy can play any instrument and can sing amazing. He has an absolutely beautiful wife (HB9 easy) who’s devoted to him and they have a young son of about 3 now. Alpha as any guy I know and even in the face of what will likely be his death soon he’s still positive about life and is fighting it.

    Last July he found out he had testicular cancer and had the surgery to remove it. After the surgery the docs discover the cancer had already spread to some of his internal organs. Now he’s in his 3rd round of chemo. Lost all his hair, dropped 25 pounds, can’t eat, lost all his sense of taste, anyone who’s known a cancer patient understands what comes along with chemo. In spite of all that, the guy still picks up his guitar and shreds as a way to recover from the latest session. Jes definitely has something to live for and he’s fighting it tooth and nail. I hate to think this might be the last I talk to him. Last year I also watched The Private Man accept his fate in spite of his fight with cancer.

    These guys aren’t zeroed out. Jes is fighting like hell to stay alive. So when I see him fight this shit every day I see that he wants to live for what will be in his future. He wants to be there to see his son graduate high school. So yeah, it’s tough for me to be sympathetic of guys who want to kill themselves.

    Now compare this to a guy who’s had all that he’s built stripped away from him. Whether or not his Blue Pill conditioning was of any consequence these guys believe that the life they created is now erased. Any equity they had, any status they acquired as part of their old books playing by the rules is gone. 45-65 years in and life is saying all that he believed was of value really isn’t valuable. No amount of power of positive thinking, no amount of self-convincing that ‘he defines what’s useful and valuable’ is going to alter the fact that all he’d built will need to be rebuilt now.

    I covered this in The Reconstruction series’ posts. One reason it’s really tough to make older men Red Pill aware is because they will have to face this zeroing out also includes their Blue Pill idealistic goals that a fem-centric world told them would be their reward. You can deny your own burden of performance all you like, you can convince yourself you don’t care what others think about you – and that’s all good, but ultimately all you’re doing is shooting the arrow and painting the target around it. Yeah, it’s pretty fucked up. Yeah, men should decide what’s valuable to themselves and in their own intrinsically rewarding way, because God knows it very likely wont be appreciated in any other way.

    You can argue Dancing Monkeys all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that a majority of men are Blue Pill conditioned Betas and this is what they believe and experience. Personally, I’ve had to face being zeroed out at least 3 times in my life, and I’ll tell you that the last 2 times were much easier because I was Red Pill aware and I have confidence in my capacity to reconstruct myself.

    The higher we fly the further we have to drop. That’s not to say don’t fly as high as you can, it’s to remind us that it’s a long way down to zero. Make the most of things.

  4. This story actually made me to make a first comment on this website. It is correctly written, and is the main reason behind opiates and suicide epidemics in USA, and alcoholism problems in Soviet Union and current Russia.

    People, and especially men lose sight of the future. They do not see how they can make future for them and their loved ones better, so they look for another solution. For permanent solution with gun, or temporary solution with pills or alcohol. As not everybody can get up after they are beaten multiple times.

    If I would had to live longer in Soviet Union, I would have become alcoholic too. Or worse. Until 1970ies rural people were not allowed to leave their village, as they received no passports at all.

    Hence situation in USA will only get worse, as more people are pushed into situations where they see no choice and no future.

  5. “I was Red Pill aware and I have confidence in my capacity to reconstruct myself.”

    Sleeping with a clear conscience is priceless, and certainty is critical for that. Sometimes that means when events are out of hand, accept a loss today for a greater gain tomorrow and move on, ASAP. Uncertainty today, but different and better days ahead.

    I don’t assume but Jes is doing what he can to live but also hedging his bets for the worst.

    If given an existential threat, and survived, would I slowly return to status quo ante? If BP, more likely.

    IMO, no man is worth zero, even in death.

  6. Hence situation in USA will only get worse, as more people are pushed into situations where they see no choice and no future.

    A healthy RP man with social skills will always have a choice and a future of his own making.

  7. Zeroed out …
    Would it be worse to lose your wife and family in a car crash, house fire etc …
    Or worse to have your wife and family turn their backs on you, send you into exile
    Is it worse that they are truly gone gone gone …
    Or worse when they are still somewhere out there but you are dead to them?

  8. “Blue Pill idealistic goals that a fem-centric world told them would be their reward”

    We’re at a point where the quid pro quo facade has dropped. BP behaviors are openly mocked, litigated. Only by coercion will this continue.

    Expectations of men are unsustainably high. Men are shrugging.

    I meet many able bodied men who don’t work. They don’t see the purpose of it. They don’t need much and reward themselves with gaming the system rather than being gamed. Better than suicide.

  9. “A healthy RP man with social skills will always have a choice and a future of his own making.”

    In the following video I’m merely pointing out factors addressed in LTR Game. I’m not advocating someone lean toward LTR Game.

    Most of the points here are red pill. And it’s only 5 minutes. He talks fast.

    We all have different life paths and and different stages of our path.

    Most of the points here are red pill.

    Robbins advocates for being more of a creator before, during and after pursuing relationship game, rather than a traditional male hunter. When you are a hunter and you get what you were aiming for, it doesn’t always make you happy thereafter.

    He dismisses woo woo PoPT strategies like “The Secret” and The Law of Attraction as being so simple as to be absurd.

    He personally had spun plates and was open about it until he decided that it seemed like the right thing to do to get with his wife exclusively.

    Not getting what you want at times is sometimes the most valuable thing that can ever happen to you. (….. hell, it might even lead you to Google search,…..and end up reading on TRM)

    You have to put yourself in a position where you decide not only what you want, but who-do-you-have-to-become to attract what you want (the girl you want).

  10. @Rollo,
    “Personally, I’ve had to face being zeroed out at least 3 times in my life, and I’ll tell you that the last 2 times were much easier because I was Red Pill aware and I have confidence in my capacity to reconstruct myself.”

    Rollo, I can’t agree with this enough.

    First time, wife of 20 years tried to ‘zero me out’ and I had a close call with stepping into that abyss for all the failed rationalizations you have previously stated.It took a strong love for my kids to claw my way out of that dark place to fight for them… and win.

    Second time, as a newly RP-aware man, I was fully prepared and walked away from much (but not all) I had worked for without fear. To say that I have ‘bounced back’ would be a gross understatement.

    Everything you want is on the other side of fear.

  11. @ mersonia

    “That’s actually a really good question. How long can anyone really keep it up. How long can game which girls will grow accustomed too stand and if you are in a marriage is it upheld by desire or just the fact that the female has invested(lol idk if thats good word (I think become accustomed to being part of your life is better) so much in it that she just decides its better to stay.

    I’d really like someone with game and that is married to awnser that… queue ( blax sentybear.. shit even SJF (Not you ASD don’t respond plz)(And i’m not trolling at all I’d like a deadpan serious answer)

    This one was/is hard. Thoughts in my head running wild like a dyslexic herd of feral cats. But It’s a great question that deserves and attempt at answering, although HABD did a masterful job.

    Okay, I’ll step up to the plate: ( *** Warning: Copious amounts of ” I. I, I, I, Me, Me, Me, Me, Mine, Mine, Mine to follow *** ).

    ” How long can game which girls will grow accustomed too stand and if you are in a marriage is it upheld by desire or just the fact that the female has invested….”

    Marriage/LTR ” game ” is similar to ” Game “, but at the same time different because the end goal is different. When trying to pick up a chick for sex or whatever, guys work at attempting to spike attraction and emotions for a singular desired effect. Panties. IMO, most times the desire that may or may not arise from successfully doing this will most likely be fleeting in the overall scheme of things. Desire is built and nurtured, explodes, and is gone like Kaiser Sozay.

    Desire is an odd thing. It’s got multi levels.

    A while back I spoke here of a 21 year old chick that has made it absolutely clear that she would like nothing more than for me to break my dick off inside of her. She has desire like a motherfucker, but it’s an unknown quantity outside of our orgasms. It might not have any legs beyond the bedroom. This is why I think so many men find themselves in trouble with women and frustrated at how in the world can they keep spiking her desire over the long haul. Sounds exhausting.

    Mostly you cannot keep that kind of desire going for a LTR or marriage, but right now there’s a guy that’s proposed or, as scray used to say ” Promised monogamy ” under these spurious circumstances. Because pussy.

    She’s not the prize. Never could be. It’s not about keeping up any kind of front or making her the center of your attention and efforts. In the long run, this is actually a desire killer.

    I have been thinking about this for the past few days, and one of the conclusions that I’ve come to, is that men aren’t having enough sex with a variety of women. Like I said, desire has levels, but mostly as long as a chick lays down and opens her legs willingly, I think we get thrown because pussy, and we can’t fully judge the level of desire. Women can fuck you while thinking about their nail appointment tomorrow.

    I think it’s imperative that a man has as much sex as possible, because eventually, you will come across ( no pun ) a high level of absolute desire from a chick, or chicks, and it will be helpful in forging your ability to recognize it. it’s different than good old fashion lust.

    Her level of real, actual desire is the best barometer for whether or not there can reasonably be ” more ” than sex over a period of time, because ” just sex ” can never, ever hold 2 people together for any considerable length of time.

    Yup, Game is useful in a relationship, but in measured doses. Less is more. Once game has become internalized within, you will do it almost subconsciously without thought, and you will just know when to apply it and under what circumstances. She can’t ” catch on ” because it’s not a pattern of behavior. Avoid being Pattern Man whenever possible PLEASE.

    Rollo wrote about Playing with her and playing with her, and that’s some of the best advice ever right there. Don’t become robotic under any circumstances – and this is whether you are in a marriage/ltr or single. Never be a dogmatic slave. Lol. Do it for yourself first and foremost.

    Looking at things in this light, there’s nothing for a man to ” keep up “. You’ll be just doing you. You won’t have to constantly be giving thought during interactions and trying to decide what’s the best course of action to take. You’ll Just Do It, and when done in a masculine frame, calibration and consistency, it works. For a very long time.

    Remember, she feels what you feel to a greater extent. If you get bored or frustrated or just generally lackluster, the shit test will flow fast and furious, or she’ll check out, or she’ll furiously fuck the check out boy at the market.

    Of course, this is only half the story –


    When you smell your favorite food cooking, you know how you react, right?

    Guys Must.Get.Their Sex.Game. UP!!!!! Lol, nobody wants to hear that shit, but it is 100% true. You must be able to BRING IT in the bedroom…. or living room….or kitchen….or backyard if you have one…..or in the back and front seats of your automobile. Thing is, she can get a dick anywhere. Even if she’s a 4. Most chicks know this from interacting with us men, but the secret is that that’s not optimal for them. They’d rather not ( for the most part ) and they leave that stuff to fantasy. Take some times and learn about female biology. Lol. And if you’re just not a sexual dude/being, maybe you should stick to being solo. I’m serious. It’s not difficult at all to totally ROCK a chick sexually, and it doesn’t require the entire Kama Sutra and hours of foreplay.

    Question: Your favorite meal ( I must be hungry with all the food talk ) arrives at your table. Do you a) Tear into it and wolf it down while barely tasting it, knocking over glasses and tableware all over the place, or B) do you savor it and enjoy it, taking your time? Chicks will tune in to how you react to them during sex. Fuck rose petals and candle light and shit, but how into it are you with them. If they cant tell, you gotta fix that shit. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard some chick talking to another chick about how unsatisfactory her sex life was, and how she was tempted to bang an Afghani cab driver.

    Or, save yourself problems later and stay with SNL’s or fuckbuddys. Real talk soldiers. I know a surprisingly large number of men that aren’t very sexual. They’re horny as fuck, but not sexual. They are 2 different things completely.

    You gotta … I can only think of one phrase, but it’s corny as hell… You gotta FIND yourself. You gotta explore who YOU are. You have to maximize yourself, for yourself FIRST .

    Live life, don’t just exist.

    Understand, you might have to bang dozens of women to get a good feel ( no pun ) for them. It’s a dirty job…etc. etc. I’m confident that if you bang a lot of them, you will come across some real, hellfire genuine hot-as-fuck desire ( sex game tight though..). You will know it when you see it. And then you might settle for less ( because dick hard ), but not often.

    And even that is conditional, but you only have to not fuck it up. Mold yourself, then Be Yourself.

    HABD turning my ” job ” thing around and applying it to the question was damn correct.

    So in essence what I’m getting at is that in my experience, genuine desire only ever dies slowly unless a man artificially kills it, and even as it wanes it can be fanned back into a raging fire. Know the difference between a chick wanting to fuck you, and a chick wanting you.

    Not. The. Same. Thing.

    ( but, pussy… lol )

    There’s a life outside of the bedroom, so learn how to successfully navigate that shit. Don’t be stagnant and boring, not for her or anybody else but yourself, and grab her hand and pull her along for the ride.

    It’s not hard and it’s not work. The clock of life is ticking on your ass. Live that shit now!!

    Lol. Ok, I’m starting to sound like an infomercial – ” ACT NOW!!!! OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY!!!!! ” ( protip- they’re never standing by, that’s bullshit ).

    Wrapping up in conclusion.

    Counting on a woman being ” invested ” is a weak and losing strategy because hypergamy don’t give one fuck. Learn to identify and stoke and maintain desire with unabashed masculinity ( toxic or new sugar free ), red pill understanding and a few appropriately applied dabs of Game. It’s helpful to have and display a sense of humor – play with them. She will come to the conclusion that not only are you her best option bar none, but that you deserve hot meals and foot massages, and that her day isn’t really complete without your penis.

    You both know that y’all can live without each other. Your mission is to get her to understand that life without you will be ” meh “.

  12. Mostly you cannot keep that kind of desire going for a LTR or marriage,

    Lol, maybe you can’t…that damned ol’ FI is subtle and persistent, lol…that’s why I keep saying that in a LTR, you must keep the girl chasing you all the time…you must be the prize…if the girl is chasing you, she will desire you, cause that’s just how biology works…I know people get tired of me saying that you need unconscious competence at getting a girl to chase you for a LTR to work…it really is just standard Mystery Method…this means that Dread Game is essential (not the threat of divorce)…you need TONS of Preselection…spin lots of plates…have lots of options…when you have options (at least A2), all of your subcomms will say that you have high value and girls really, really believe subcomms…I talk with Mrs. Gamer about the girls in our social circle flirting with me as if it’s no big deal and she is Ok with it even tho their husbands would shit a brick…wonder why Mrs. Gamer flirts with me continually and daily…?

  13. She can’t ” catch on ” because it’s not a pattern of behavior. Avoid being Pattern Man whenever possible PLEASE.

    This is why you create drama in a relationship…if she thinks she has figured you out, then you need to create drama because she won’t be expecting that and it will force her to recalibrate. This means that you need to be able to read when a woman thinks she has figured you out and then you break out the drama.

    Sometimes I stay out past 1 a.m. to create drama and extra Dread. I don’t think about it consciously, I just do it and sometimes I surprise myself because consciously I plan to leave by midnite but then I don’t and my subconscious Game machine is running me.

    Oh, yeah, I suck at admin stuff and I put off honeydos and Mrs. Gamer nags me and it’s NBD because it’s NBD to me and Mrs. Gamer is in my frame and I don’t get mad when she nags and I do the honeydos when I’M ready, not when she wants them done.

  14. @ asd

    respectfully, the things most of the stuff you name are not sufficient in a marriage or even a ltr.

    Even Mystery found this out the hard(er) way.

    You’re still talking about pickup. A girl wearing your ring, living in your house, doesn’t have to ” chase you ” if you’re right there in the living room. Lol.

  15. Drama is indeed one way. It’s not ever a go-to.

    Remember, don’t be a ( predictable ) Pattern Man. ” I do this and get a drama fest out of him…”.

  16. A girl wearing your ring, living in your house, doesn’t have to ” chase you ” if you’re right there in the living room. Lol.

    In the living room sometimes, but not too much…not too available…not giving her too much attention…she has to work for it…she has to compete for your attention…with the girls in her imagination and the girls you actually know…

    …in every strong marriage, the girl chases the man who is higher value…

    …every man in a strong marriage uses Dread…

    …if you want stability, create drama before the girl does…a fire break…we’ve discussed this before and it’s a wise strategy…the girl will give signals that she needs drama…that she will initiate it if you don’t…if she has to create drama, it will be a lot messier and uncontrolled and unexpected, like a wildfire…if you create drama, it will be a controlled burn without much mess…

    I do this and get a drama fest out of him…”.

    …it’s just biology…

  17. Rollo I see your story about your friend sad. So after the funeral you gonna hook his hot widow up with a friends or what ? You see Rollo that’s the way I think. You got zeriod men then you got sub zeriod men that got nothing to lose. It is what it is. I swear man I’d give anything to be OMG. Omg want to be players and hustlers want to be omgs it’s a catch 22. I keep waiting Rollo waiting and reading waiting for you to cover the part of the manhood that absolves me that forgives me for fucking married woman. I keep looking I’m tired Rollo of sleeping with pistol under my pillow tired of going to cookout and shit looking over my shoulder you suppose to be having fun but I’m on guard always. A single mans life is not a good life but it’s what it is you know. I don’t got to manipulate the show the wife will do all the work you know. Rollo I’m just saying their is no canary in my chest singing it’s just dragon a demon man nothing beautiful it just hunts pussy. How do you stop being you. Don’t you got a essay somewhere man. Jodie is just a guy he don’t know how to be a nice guy he just Jodie you know he’s sub zeriod he would happily be a omg but he can’t

  18. I’m go away I done said to much sorry if said I wanted to fuck your cancer friends wife Rollo much respect for you and your contributors. I don’t got collage brains like that. I just tired of being me. But i can’t be nobody else man. Been reading you for years now. But you don’t cover what I’m looking for. And I can’t explain it. It’s just the life man I thank you. I don’t want to be me but I don’t know how to be that guy. I read dalrock and I went to church but it don’t stop the dragon Rollo. Your art is wrong it’s not delicate bird inside that needs protection it’s lion that needs to be cut loose

  19. @asdgamer

    So 99% of blue pill men are not important and nobody cares about them, is what you are saying? Great mindset right there.

    From my side, that is why socialization with other men is so important. When man is isolated, he can make mistakes that are hard or impossible to reverse. And over time, often it is possible to help him see the naked truth. Admittedly it can take years, but only men can save men. Even just 12 steps of dread can save a marriage.

  20. nice said

    one thing: Zeroed out…is that the male equivalent of “The Wall”?


    We can rebuild, better, stronger..

    Woman cant rebuild after the wall has reached, i mean in a physical way

    How many cirguries a woman can do, etc? at least for now.. the technologie doesnt provide them a solution… at least for now..

    A man in his forties and even fifties, goes to the gym, make a FUE operation if needed, ahs wisdom, experience, and he can absolutly have a girl on her twenties..

    So, for me.. no Zeroed out is not THE WALL, thanks God

  21. Gentlemen, can we please stop using ‘lol’…it is so feminine, so gay. When i see ‘lol’ at the end of a statement, i just can’t take it seriously. It’s like some dim-witted chick has written it. You can’t be red pill & alpha and use ‘lol’…


  22. I’ve been following along, but I’m still not sure how we got from suicide to menopause.

    Anyway, Platinum Rule, I successfully completed a “pre-dawn vertical insertion” on a menopausal woman.

    I won’t rehash, but HRT for extended play. As Blax said, don’t placate, don’t be overly sympathetic as to be in her frame. It would be like if you had a treatable disease, but chose not to treat it.

    Also, sex, post menopause is like inviting your woman to go the symphony after she has suffered moderate hearing loss. She’ll go, she’ll enjoy parts of the performance, but it’s not the same for her.

    I think that “zeroed out” means more than disappointment which is existential burden of performance. It’s a “no way forward from this” phenomenon.

  23. Rugby

    Smashing Pumpkins and no Zero? On this thread…

    I never let on, that I was on a sinking ship
    I never let on that I was down
    You blame yourself, for what you can’t ignore
    You blame yourself for wanting more

    She’s the one for me
    She’s all I really need, oh yeah
    She’s the one for me
    She’s my one and only

  24. Cheupez

    LTR is an inevitable drag after some time.

    And going out and banging yet another chick, doing the exact same things over and over isn’t a drag? Same coin different sides.

    The key to each is pursuing what you want, not plateauing, not stagnating.

  25. if you create drama,

    he other day my wife said “you are a drama queen, Mr. Sentient”. She meant it as a shit test but I had to smile. I do like some drama, some friction as Laird Hamilton might say. And I do tend to the Old 97’s Rhett Miller’s line “Well it must get hard to be partnered with me, some narcissism, some OCD…”

    Here is the thing about drama, when people are reacting to your drama, they are in your frame. People who complain about drama are those operating in the other’s frame.

    else it’s

  26. @Silver Fox

    Laughing loudly….ummm….ok. Yes, better grammar does get the message across more effectively. It’s all about the presentation, right? Also depends on who your audience is. I text and communicate with my daughter and GF differently than with men. Same with emojis. I don’t send my boss smiley faces. I got a new boss, a VP, about a year ago and it’s a blast to work with him. We shit test each other nonstop.

    @Blax hit another homerun on the desire thing. Everything he wrote was spot on. You don’t have to bang her in a car, a hiking trail, or bathroom at a bar….but those locations spike her emotions and sense of danger/play. I speak from from fairly recent experience on all three. During the summer debates about that awful cad (hee hee) Goldmund I figured I would try the bar bathroom thing as the opportunity was there. Yes, I know, some of you are squimish about piss on the floor and hygiene. Believe me, if a chick is DTF at the bar she isn’t going to worry about that, she wants you to nail her hard and fast.

    The stairway landing is one of my fav spots when I enter my GF’s home as I greet her I often press her up against the wall and let my hands roam while nibbling her neck. Little things like that drive her crazy. Organic dread is best. The other evening laying in bed she was stroking my beard and hair and said how she loves doing that. She then asks me if any other women have been doing that for me lately. I said: “Not today.” She pokes my ribs and gets feisty. I grabbed her and wrestled her down and she squealed with delight.

    Play with them and have fun. The more you lead their emotions the better off you are. That doesn’t mean you can’t let them vent, but find a way to shift conversations so they don’t get mired in their daily dump of “honey my day was so….”

    Also, shared this with a red pill buddy recently. There are ways to make women feel sexy without putting them on a pedestal. The correctly timed comments about their looks and clothing do wonders for their emotions. Some women want to know that you find them sexy and desirable. Don’t be afraid to tell them what to wear. I have found about 90% of the time my GF will wear things I like to see her in if I play it right. When she is indecisive about outfits before going out for drinks, dinner the beach (not this time of year) etc….take charge. One must be careful not to go overboard. Less is best and timing critical. If you have an LTR and have not done doggie with her in the past month there might be a problem. Of course, there could always be guys that simply don’t like to be in command and take their woman that way. Lastly, don’t forget to slap them on the ass when you’re done nailing her doggie. Let her know who’s in charge.

  27. I could wear a form fitting dress and stylish pumps and not be feminine.

    I get the ” lol ” criticism though, but it’s a habit now. I actually do laugh out loud sometimes when writing a comment.

    I’ll keep doing this because I like it and I’m comfortable with it ( thanks yareally ). If i ever write a novel or a technical manual, I’ll be sure to leave out the ” lol’s “.

    Why so serious?


  28. @ Sentient

    I agree about drama, but I was speaking of using it consistently as a go to, lest it become a routine. Trying to address the need to not be very predictable in relationships or in life as a whole. Formulaic.

  29. @The Solitary Silver FoX

    Gentlemen, can we please stop using ‘lol’…it is so feminine, so gay. When i see ‘lol’ at the end of a statement, i just can’t take it seriously. It’s like some dim-witted chick has written it. You can’t be red pill & alpha and use ‘lol’…


    how’s that FI treating ya?…lol

    could you feel the FI’s hand on your shoulder pushing on you to try to shame other men for discussing RP?… as you continue to try to resolve the cognitive dissonance between RP reality (which is being discussed in an accurate, albeit non-FI-approved manner) and hanging on to those BP ‘ideals’?…

    out of ALL the potential ideas to put forth/discuss/contribute to this discussion, THAT was what you thought was most important to add to the conversation…

    really try to feeel the FI’s hand on your shoulder…

    and do keep coming back to comment, bc THAT action is your hindbrain trying to figure out how to accept RP… bc you recognize the truth therein… (note – it might take a while, so keep trying…)

    good luck!

  30. “Don’t become robotic under any circumstances – and this is whether you are in a marriage/ltr or single. Never be a dogmatic slave.”

    Oh but no! First you socially prove yourself, then you open, then you A&A, then you kino, then you laze, then you….

    Blax…rekindling a PUA fight.

    @ asd

    Women will make their own drama when not provided. In an LTR, she chasing the Alpha is drama itself, no extra work needed.

  31. @ Roused

    The very first gf/sexual partner I ever had, was passionate and she gave it up on command. It took me many years and several ego blows for me to get that she didn’t desire me in the way that I desired her. It took engaging with a chick that was desirous of me for this to click.

    In either case, I was getting laid, but I’d prefer to have a chick that has a high level of desire, preferably towards me, lol…. Whoops, I did it again.

    After having desire sex I was very curious as to whether or not we men could start that fire in virtually any woman. For me the answer was a resounding ‘ no ‘. That’s what I was getting at concerning a fleeting desire and a lasting desire. Chicks are very good at spinning up with desire in the moment, and bless their hearts because of this. This is a positive.

    I guess my point falls along the lines of long term vs shorter term.

    I hear a lot of guys in real life and here in the comments that are convinced that every relationship will get old and boring at some point. To me, that mindset is a negative self fulfilling prophecy.

    Admittedly I may suffer from some kind of undiagnosed mental illness because I’m not easily bored and I don’t keep anything in my life that doesn’t trigger some kind of positive feeling, or serve my ultimate purpose.

    It’s that time of year to put the Hemi Cuda away for the winter, and put it up on Jack stands and stabilize the fuel in the tank. I’ve had that car 30+ years. Still, when I see it, the hair on the back of my neck still stands up and when I start it my heartrate quickens.

    There’s way to much to do and learn and experience, to ever be bored.

    In a relationship the trick is to be able to discern what her tendency towards boredom is. Is she passionate, desirous of you, and what’s her track record in other aspects of life?

    Once we get our penises immersed, we tend to stop thinking about our best interests and that’s how many of us find ourselves years down the road bored and unhappy and dissatisfied.

  32. “(I just ejaculated all over my keyboard!}”

    I’ve heard of keyboard jockeying but keyboard jerking?

    tssfx: you might want to sit down for this one


  33. P.S.

    Also ” sex ” is probably one of the areas in life where patience and discerning is most difficult due to all of that urgency. Just keep that in mind…. After you ejaculate of course.

  34. The whole “Frame” thing is interesting. The reason men now have a problem with it is the simple truths it upholds and was once ingrained in every man’s mind by puberty has been made increasingly considered Taboo , Anti-women, Misogynist…etc. The tenants of frame used to be enforced by society, a man whose wife browbeat him would be ridiculed in public or her for being a Scold. The legends men were told and sage advice by older men enforced the basic idea ” The road to a woman’s mind is a profitless journey” and “One can never weaken”

    All that aside, one has to decide if the ROI is worth it at different stages of your life. For me at almost 63 if a chance to get laid falls in my lap and I feel like it, I’d go for it, but the idea of having a bunch of sticky notes on my bathroom mirror to remind me to “Maintain the Frame” for a LTR with somebody elses post 45 year old X-Wife is not worth the investment, others mileage may vary..


    The meaning of Lol has changed–it often doesn’t mean laughing out loud. You might have noticed this. It sometimes a way to flag that a message is meant to be funny or to signal irony. It doesn’t convey actual laughter most of the time. Sometimes it’s a nod of the the head or a marker of irony or humor and more besides.

    Sometimes its a nod of deference to another man. Guys in groups work on accomplishing something and sometimes it indicates that they are working side to side, or shoulder to shoulder instead of face to face trying to force something down the other guys throat face to face.

    Similar to the way YaReally used it frequently: Linguist John McWhorter has been studying this. He calls LOL “the texting equivalent of black English’s yo, a nugget of new colloquial grammar establishing a warm shared frame of reference”.

    McWhorter, like Curzan, feels that LOL hasn’t meant laughing out loud for a while now (I think it still does, but only sometimes). Referring to the phrases LOL it’s raining and LOL I’m inside the library; LOL I know, it’s been a long day, he points out that “no one guffaws that much. That’s not what these LOLs mean.”

    He continues:

    If you look at the LOLs from the perspective of a geeky linguist looking for structure, what the LOLs are, are particles which indicate that the speaker – so to speak – and the addressee are sharing a certain context of interpretation, i.e., you know what this nasty day is like; You know what it’s like being in the library. That is a piece of grammar.

    So LOL has been grammaticalised. It’s now a pragmatic particle, what McWhorter in a more recent talk (not yet online) calls a marker of empathy and accommodation.

    Whether used like this or in the more traditional way, LOL is not “gibberish”, as a commenter here recently complained. You don’t have to like it or use it, but it’s an interesting communicative development deserving of study, not casual contempt.

    It’s not all girly when used by men in a male space. It’s part of tribal behavior on the internet.

    You can either join in a tribe of men or remain separate. Join when you want to fight a crusade, remain separate when you want to think more clearly and singularly.

    Western Mastery blogger had a review of Scott Adams book ‘Win Bigly’ (about Trump and politics, psychology, marketing, and most of all, persuasion.).

    “If you want to see the world more clearly, avoid joining a tribe. But if you are going to war, leave your clear thinking behind and join a tribe.”

    This is some valuable insight into the tribal nature of humans. When you’re part of a group, you look for reasons to support that group, and thus, you tend to become intellectually dishonest. Stay independent and learn to recognize your cognitive biases to be as honest as possible. However, if you need to fight for a cause, you want to join a group to maximize your chances of success and survival.

    The ‘Red Pill’ is fighting for a cause.

  36. “The tenants of frame used to be enforced by society, a man whose wife browbeat him would be ridiculed in public or her for being a Scold. The legends men were told and sage advice by older men enforced the basic idea ” The road to a woman’s mind is a profitless journey” and “One can never weaken””

  37. @ Ronin

    Watch Rollo’s interview with Donovan Sharpe that he posted above (December 5, 2017 at 10:48 am). Start at the 40:00 mark. Listen through the 49:00 mark.

  38. Rose McGowan: ‘They Really F–ed With the Wrong Person’ – TIME

    A whore went to Hollyweird so she could whore her way into wealth and “fame”. Subsequently this whore was sexually molested or raped by a whore monger who also went to Hollyweird so he could become wealthy off the whores in Hollyweird.


  39. “@NBTM, are you ever going to read a TRM post and understand that I’m not writing about how things should be, but rather I’m writing about how things are?”

    Reject how they are. There is no “should be” except what a person wants individually. Yes, one cannot have everything and some compromise is always inevitable. But, there has been far too much compromise. We are where we are because of complicity. Analization and rhetoric are only excecizes in recognizing, describing, and complaining. Reject how things are or they will continue as they are and worse.

  40. Blax

    “Still, when I see it, the hair on the back of my neck still stands up and when I start it my heartrate quickens.”

    I stopped off at the Quicksack
    For some beer and cigarettes
    The old man took my money
    As he stared at my Corvette
    He said, I had one just like her son
    A nineteen-sixty-three
    Till the man down at the
    Bank took her from me

    Oh, She was hotter than a two-dollar pistol
    She was the fastest thing around
    Long and lean, every young man’s dream
    She turned every head in town
    She was built and fun to handle, son
    I’m glad that you dropped in
    She reminds me of the one I loved back then

    Then, I handed him my keys and said
    Here, take her for a spin
    The old man scratched his head, and said
    Then he looked at me and grinned
    He said son, you just don’t understand
    It ain’t the car I want
    It’s the brunette in your ‘Vette that turns me on

  41. “But if you are going to war, leave your clear thinking behind and join a tribe.”

    Wars require society-scale involvement compelling all to protect the state interests. Wars require abondoning personal welfare for often vague objectives. Wars are marketed too.

    Tribes reinforce personal conviction, otherwise, why join? Maybe this is a semantics issue.

    Using fighting terminology regarding the feminism is stemwinding (I use it too) but the reality is learn guerrilla tactics to survive another day.

    NBTM, I feel your frustration. Don’t know much about you, but here goes anyways: Don’t blow yourself, career, reputation up in an unwinnable social battle. Better to blend in working quietly against your oppressors.

    If we play our cards right we will live happy lives and not get caught, end up like this poor guy:

  42. an analogy…

    in my poor youth, I managed to get my hands on a beater dirt bike, it was such bad shape that maybe it was given to me or obtained for nearly free; I didn’t care, I had myself a motorcycle and having fun was tops on the list

    the bike, however, tended to be in need of constant repairs; flat tires, leaks, bent and broken shit wearing out; I had minimal tools… screwdrivers, crescent wrench, vise grips, hammer; no sockets, power tools, impact drivers, sized wrenches, internet, manuals, friends-in-the-know… nothing like that; not to mention trying to earn the few dollars for parts and get my mom to drive across town to get them

    how bad did I want to ride? that question is answered by the effort I made to make it happen

    I sat many an hour on the garage floor fixing flats with nothing but a couple of screwdrivers, removing stripped bolts (usually my own doing), making gaskets out of cereal boxes, taking shit apart and figuring out how to put it back together… you get the picture; I still have a dandy scar from when I nearly lost the end of my pinky in some gears

    now, I am far from poor and can afford better bikes and tools; they all run and I know how to keep it that way; all that time spent understanding what happens, how it happens and especially how to fix it has given me an outlook and attitude on riding — call it my ‘frame’ — that would be much different had I started as a grown man; what do you think my outlook would be if in my childhood I had a brand new bike, never needed fixing but if it did, the mechanic did it for me?

    I feel fearless, comfortable knowing I can handle most anything, and it lets me enjoy the experience more fully, you might say I have an ‘alpha’ frame when riding

    this is not to say that I’m not fully aware that at any time some dumbfuck could wipe me out while texting and never even know it; some pothole or asshole could do me in and it has nothing to do with my skills, abilities, beliefs or wishes

    the point is that now I spend more time riding than wrenching but hopefully I can detect problems earlier, knowing when something doesn’t sound right, or feel right, whatever it is that needs attention before it starts to get out of hand and negatively impact the experience

    and really, without these assurances, the idea of riding solo out into the mountains with no cell reception, wild animals and unpredictable weather would not be anywhere near as fun…. scary even

    so when some of the commenters here lament the ‘work’ it takes to make a LTR successful because of all the female quirks we must always be on guard against, I think that if they are seeing it as ‘work’ then they are not yet ready for a LTR; go back to wrenching wenches until shit starts to make sense and you incorporate it into your natural, competent self… unfazed by the variances life inists upon throwing at us

    then, when you’re riding your LTR, you get to enjoy it more; you’re aware when adjustments are necessary, maintenance is mandatory and even when it’s time for a whole new bike

  43. Off topic,

    Seeing Marilyn above…she was a size 12, but not by today’s standards.

    Following the war, more standard measurements were put in place for womenswear, and in the 1950s, a commercial standard was set. Women’s clothing for off-the-rack production would range from 8 to 38 based first on bust, and then height, hips, and girth. There was no such thing as a sizes 0 through 6.

    This sizing was standard through the early 1980s when it was withdrawn—companies noticed that appealing to one’s vanity helped with sales (which still holds true today). The private standards organization ASTM International, which publishes annual updates for clothing manufactures, regularly accommodates for this size inflation. As the size and shape of the average American woman began to change, so did the vanity sizing aimed at soothing egos. While a size 8 was considered the smallest available in 1958 when the initial sizing standards were put into effect, an 8 corresponded to roughly a 31-24-33 body. By 2008, a size 8 had increased by five to six inches for each of those measurements. By 2011, the ASTM even had a standard size 00.

  44. Christine Keeler, a beautiful young British Caberet Dancer who destroyed lives of many Alphas and Betas and brought down the Conservative Government in the UK 1963 because of her affairs. She passed away on 05/12/17 at 75 years.

    She was a hot mess:

    All the men in her life operated in her frame and she ruined their lives.

    Rest in peace.

  45. “No amount of power of positive thinking, no amount of self-convincing that ‘he defines what’s useful and valuable’ is going to alter the fact that all he’d built will need to be rebuilt now.”

    True, but this is not about positive thinking, it’s about knowing who you are and celebrating it, living, and don’t you think that on some level, at least subconsciously, the beta slave knows what he signed up for, what he agreed to going in?

    “The higher we fly, the further we have to drop” And then there was the guy who flew so high his wings melted and he crashed. Pride goeth before a fall. Maybe I’m one of those guys, but the beta man never flies, he is a ground worker, a subject. I’d rather be an eagle or a hawk than a worm. I trust you are one of the former. Kudos to Jes.

  46. Kudos to Jes.

    Lance Armstrong kicked its ass. Maybe Jes can to. Maybe If I had it and did everything and thought everything Lance did I would also kick its ass, maybe not. Maybe some modern medical magic bullet helped. Maybe not.

    But then Lance is an “asshole”…..because he was doing the same thing everyone else was. LOL!

    I would rather burn out than fade away.

    It’s better to go down in flames than waste away whimpering in a cave.

    Kudos to Jes.

  47. @Roboto

    That’s not “strikes back”, that’s just more of the same. Remember, TIME picked Hitler as Man of the Year back in the 1930’s, around ’36 or so. “Entity of the year” doesn’t mean much.

    I’m kind of surprised it still exists.

  48. dr zipper

    You just rewrote “Zen and The Art of Motorcyce Maintenance”

    I like your condensed version much better, it’s succinct, concise and right to the point.

  49. @Roboto notice who is and who is not on that cover.

    @Blaximus – does your employer have a Christmas or Holiday party? If so I bet it is way toned down this year.

  50. @ AR

    My company is one of the last remaining ” Old School ” conservative companies. The parties have always been subdued mostly, but I’m sure it will be even more so this year.

    I’ve not attended 1 Holiday Party since joining the company. Not inclined to do so. After work I try to put great distances between me and all coworkers.

    10-15 years ago, people at my job used to go out in groups on Friday nights to bars in the area, and then come back on the job site ( where they’d met up and parked their cars ) and fuck in the parking lot around 1- 2 a.m.

    HR got wind of this, even though a couple of HR workers were out there banging as well, and put an instant stop to it, although I have no idea how they accomplished that.

  51. Christmas parties got tuned down when DWI became a major liability thing… and Holiday Parties are de facto HR nightmares to start with.

  52. nbtm – “Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”

    been on my reading list for ages but haven’t gotten around to it; maybe I’ll just scratch it off my list now that I’ve lived it instead

    or better yet, any of y’all interested in becoming a producer for the movie version? even if it bombs I hear we can at least wear out the casting couch to help kickstart (hehe) some hot starlet’s career

    creeps need not apply

  53. “NBTM, I feel your frustration. Don’t know much about you, but here goes anyways: Don’t blow yourself, career, reputation up in an unwinnable social battle. Better to blend in working quietly against your oppressors.”

    Ah ha,

    Yes, been there, done that. Good at it (heh). The slyest foxes get the best hens. Enter their frame, and then fuck it all up, take everything you can, “rob” the house. Watching the fallout is entertaining to say the least.

    Only a few of us know this truth. “Song birds” do not “sing” of joy and ecstasy. They literally scream lust and contemptuous rage at each other.

    If you think I’m “weird” or “evil” for explaining this reality, then you have never closely watched birds and how they behave. If you think its a matter of personal “point of view”, then you must first know that opinion comes from conditioned expectations, not real experience and close observation. Opinion is not knowledge. The real behavior is extremely violent, competitive, and “cruel”. Go out into the forest and watch the birds, (I literally mean this, it is refreshing and an education to boot) really observe, so you will know their behavior, instead of your conditioned expectations of what the sounds are “supposed” to “mean” to human ears.

  54. Fuck your way to the top (or fail, trying). Then get second thoughts twenty years later and harangue the fuckee to death on social media and the mainstream media. Bonus points: get named Times person of the year.


  55. @NBTM

    “If you think I’m “weird” or “evil” ”

    At what Rollo was saying, there isn’t evil or good, there is and isn’t.

    Something’s are nice and others not nice, perhaps.

    That’s what we’re finding here. Truth.

    Have a nice evening!

  56. Time’s ‘??? of the Year’ was ostensibly about someone’s impact on the world, not how ‘good’ they are…. hence Hitler’s (and Stalin, etc.) inclusion among others

    however, the crones on display this year make about as much sense as giving Chicken Little credit for the sky falling

  57. kfg

    Wait wut, Time still exists?

    Dentists across the land make it possible. There are still people in waiting rooms who don’t have a book, tablet or smartphone.

    dr. zipper
    Time’s ‘??? of the Year’ was ostensibly about someone’s impact on the world, not how ‘good’ they are…. hence Hitler’s (and Stalin, etc.) inclusion among others

    Get your boring facts out of my fun argument!

    however, the crones on display this year make about as much sense as giving Chicken Little credit for the sky falling

    That cover is all about feeding the FI. Again, note who isn’t there.

  58. “Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”

    …been on my reading list for ages but haven’t gotten around to it; maybe I’ll just scratch it off my list now that I’ve lived it instead

    NBTM was correct in his assessment of of you giving the Cliff’s Notes version of it. But that’s only 10% of it.

    I wouldn’t cross it off just yet.

    It changed my life in 1979 and re-redeemed me in 2015 (as well as making me bring tears to my eyes as I finished it on my brick paver patio in light of practicing Red Pill). It is a really powerful story told on three levels. Do not dismiss it as a “explain it like a 5 year old” mentality. It is super rich. And super inspiring.

    It is inspirational and aspirational.

    The guy that wrote it was a schizophrenic that awoke from the dead. He was crazy and the book was rational crazy talk. Which works in this crazy world to cut through all the bull-shit.

    80% of what I have derived from the manosphere over the last 4 1/2 years was based on what I did right in my life and the other 20% was filling in the spaces of what I was ignorant of.

    @Dr Zipper

    You owe your son a favor for getting “Quality Dad” right, based on Robert Pirsig’s the metaphysics of Quality. Having wrenched motorcycles in real life, your job is to make sense of that for you (put your oxygen mask on first) and then demonstrate to your young boy, what the hell is going on in this life.

    Just read the damn thing and get it over with.

    There is such a thing as being able to bridge the Apollonian and Dionysian divide in this chaotic world. Cognitive Dissonance is a bitch, until you realize that it is a thing that humans were designed to embrace, rather than be fucked with. You got a high-order brain to work with. If you let your higher brain cock-block what your heart wants: You are doing it wrong.

    Not reading it because it takes time and mental effort is a weak way to go through life. I/We expect better of you. We hold you accountable in the Red Pill community to be your best self. Do it.

  59. ” . . . note who isn’t there.”

    And he’s been blowing the whistle a lot longer than that Leno chin chic, and longer than Swift has been alive.

  60. Great post Rollo. Sobering and poignant and relevant. I’m not up to date on the comments but wanted to follow on a Blaximus comment way above about paying attention to what you feed your brain and learning to discern the truth or falseness of the thoughts in your head. KEY point!

    My thoughts also tie into the Twitter debate Rollo had wrt the cause of male suicide. I think he nails it regarding what is driving men to this point. But it is also true that men have a tendency to not recognize when they need help, and a reluctance to admit it to someone else – *especially* when the help needed is of emotional or psych nature. Those traits are necessary and serve men well in the vast majority of situations, but when a man reaches a dark and isolated place, that can be deadly.

    Blaxs comments are absolutely right, but when you’re in the depths of hell you’re most likely not going to be able to process through that on your own – some men will, but a lot won’t. When I was at that point about 20 years ago, all I knew was that something was really, really off in my thinking, it had become very narrow and dark, I had become very isolated and it scared me. When I realized what was happening, I opened the phone book, picked the number of a counselor at random, left a voicemail saying I need help I need to talk to someone asap. I had never even considered talking to a therapist before.
    A woman called me back within the hour and set an appt for the next day. I saw her a total of 5 times, and almost all of that time spent learning the tools that Blax describes. Those sessions were the best investment I ever made, and I have never needed to go back to therapy again. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy(CBT) is powerful stuff, and its the kind of thing you don’t unlearn or forget. Either it saved my life or at least spared me a serious mental breakdown. Moral of the story: recognize if you need help and find a way to get it. No shame in that.

  61. Also, even if you haven’t reached the depths of hell CBT is a still a great set of tools for building the life you want.

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