Men and Suicide

Before I launch in here today I need to confess that this post has been in my drafts folder for a while now. As most of my readers are aware I’ve known two personal friends who’ve taken their own lives as a result of having their Blue Pill conditioned beliefs set them on a path to self destruction. One of the more important parts of my charter when I started writing was to reach the men who were at their wits’ end in figuring out how to deal with their personal, romantic or married lives that had until then been directed by what their Blue Pill acculturation and their understanding of intersexual dynamics were molded to be. Since I started and stopped and then restarted this topic again there have been a few recent developments in my perspective on men taking their own lives as a result of the Blue Pill’s influence on them.

All of this really began about two months ago while I was engaging in a debate (or what passes for debate) on Twitter with a very unsympathetic woman who thought she’d set me straight about why it is men choose to take their own lives at a far greater rate than women. As it stands today, men are statistically between 4 and 5 times more likely than women to kill themselves. For most Red Pill aware men this is a fairly well known stat and one that gets quoted often enough when women trot out their own stats about abuse or whatever issue they think it is that MRA are ‘confused’ about. They usually get owned when this sort of back and forth goes down, but I’m always drawn to the comparative issues women think are equitable to that of men losing their lives.

Men’s disposability is also nothing new to the manosphere. Sperm is cheap, eggs are scarce and men are expected to sacrifice their lives for the security and betterment of women even in the most patriarchal of prior social orders. It’s always interesting to me that issues of mandatory male conscription into the military (potential death) and the unignorable high male suicide rates are something women still won’t accept as being a pretty raw deal for men. Women’s innate solipsism will still compel women to find some “yeah, but;…” rationalization for men’s disposability. Whenever I bring something like this up the reflexive presumption is that I’m bemoaning men’s victim status for being disposable. However, it’s impossible to discuss male disposability without such a connotation. My issues isn’t one of seeking some equitable disposability for women, but rather it’s drawing attention to the way women react and rationalize away their own part in that disposability.

True Powerlessness

I covered a lot of this in Chivalry vs. Altruism, so I won’t belabor that here, but I will point out the inherent power imbalance in this disposability. I’ve stated in the past that true power is not the control we can exert over the lives of others, but rather the extent to which we have control over the direction of our own lives. When we discuss issues of power between men and women the real, ultimate, loss of that control is in the context of our deaths.

There is no greater powerlessness for men than a lack of control over our own disposability.

Again, this isn’t some cry of victimhood for men – I happen to believe there’s an evolved component in the male psychological firmware that actually predisposes us to sacrificing ourselves in lieu of the security of our women and children. That’s not so much altruism as it is an inborn subroutine for protecting women that triggers in life-threatening situations. When a mass shooter opens fire indiscriminately at a crowd of people it is the men, not the women, who instinctively put their bodies between that gun and women or children, even the one’s they don’t personally know.

In the bigger scope of things, men will always be more disposable than women, and on some level of consciousness women’s hindbrains instinctively understand this. As such, women’s conscious process must find ways to reconcile this understanding in order for them to move on from men’s sacrifices. Sometimes this can manifest in the War Brides phenomenon, but I would argue that in today’s social learning environment of mass media, instant gratification of women’ solipsism and feminine-primary social order, this reconciliation takes some even uglier turns. Today, women have become very efficient in consoling each other’s solipsistic rationalizing of men’s sacrifices. In this environment of default female victimization and presumed oppression even men’s ultimate sacrifice, men’s ultimate powerlessness in their own deaths, cannot ever be consciously or unconsciously acknowledged in a state of fempowerment.

While I had this debate it occurred to me that even men’s suicides could never be attributed to anything less than their own ‘male egos’ by women, thus making them victims of their conditioning into “toxic” masculinity. Essentially, women were arguing that men would put a noose around their necks because they were socially conditioned to do so. Their suicide rate was attributable to their self-pity and inability to be ‘real men’ as some nebulous toxic masculinity had predefined for them. I thought this was kind of ironic when you compare this reasoning to the narrative shift away from ‘toxic’ masculinity to masculinity itself is toxic. This is really a stupid argument when you consider that it’s just another social convention used to absolve women of the guilt associated with men’s sacrifices. Men are hardwired for self sacrifice, but likewise women had need to evolved psychological adaptations to help them clear the red from their life’s ledger in this respect.

So, in the end, it helps if women can fall back on social conventions that put the associated guilt of men’s sacrifices back on the men themselves. Chivalry and traditional masculinity are fine when they serve the Feminine Imperative, but if a man actually gets killed or kills himself as part of that, well, that’s on him then. And this is what I was beginning with in this debate; there will always be a desire for absolution of women’s guilt or complicity in the deaths of men. I should also add that in terms of war and men being drafted women regularly default to the same asinine presumption that if women were running the world that there would be no wars. I won’t dignify that with any deeper analysis than to say that this too is one more (feeble) way of looking for absolution in the sacrifices men make to facilitate women’s reality.

Suicide Solution

That still left the question, why do men take their own lives in such alarmingly high numbers compared to women? I had to do a bit of research on this, but the demographics for male suicide today show some patterns. 7 in 10 suicides are men (majority white) between the ages of 45 and 65. As expected from gynocentric media, the primary reason always cited is men’s so called stubbornness in seeking out psychiatric help before they attempt suicide – again absolving women’s influence of any complicity – but ignoring what would motivate men, and this demographic in particular, to suicide. Again, there’s no attempt to understand the underlying reasons for male suicide, only a stereotypically easy ‘male-stupid’ answer to absolve women’s complicity in it.

There’s a lot to consider and be sensitive of when it comes to male suicide, but I’m going to speculate about a few reasons here coming from a Red Pill perspective. At no other time in western history has there ever been a generation of more purposeless men. From an evolved psychological perspective, men need a function. We are innate idealists. We look outward at the world and like to imagine what could be possible. I believe there is also an innate part of our evolved mental firmware that predisposes us to problem solving and improvisation, and much of that comes as an adaptation to women’s own innate need for men who can display cues of competency.

In Competency I made the case for women’s attraction to men displaying signals of competency, confidence, mastery and creative intelligence as a selected-for survival adaptation. In short, our competency in life, whether stemming from physical prowess, social dominance or creative intelligence is integrally linked with our reproductive success as well as overall life success.

However, at no other time in history has men’s competency been so devalued and so debased; other than perhaps in terms of physical prowess and accommodating the short term (Alpha Fucks) breeding imperatives of women. At no other time in (western) history has the equity in what a man can provide or create or solve been so implicitly unnecessary or superfluous to women. When we consider the rates of college enrollment and graduation of women compared to that of men, when we consider the practical problems that men used to solve, our utility has never been less needed – or at least that’s the zeitgeist of today.

We read about how men need to accept this new social reality – that our need for purpose and function is no longer needed or as valued – and we need to change our headspace about it as if it were something men might simply turn off. This is the result of equalist beliefs that anything gender-specific is something learned rather than the innate firmware we were born with. But we cannot simply change our minds about needing a function. We evolved to be problem solvers, women talk, men do, but now we are expected to accept that men are obsolete.

Loss of Utility

In Relational Equity I made a case for men investing too much of their egos into what intrinsic (and extrinsic) value they believe their respective women ought to appreciate about themselves. Under the old books, old social contract this equity may have had some conditional value to women, but as a buffer against Hypergamy today there is very little a man might consider value-added equity (unless it’s exceedingly rare or exceedingly valued) as a hedge against Hypergamy. Before any defeatist critics tell me how not all women are like that, yes, I get it, there are a lot of variables to consider here, but the equation and the reality doesn’t change – relational equity, overall, is no insurance against Hypergamy. It is also no insurance against women’s security and providership needs being met by resources that come from outside that relationship. I’m not considering this because I’m trying to depress any man, but it is vitally necessary to consider when we look at reasons why 45-65 year old men are predisposed to higher rates of suicide and higher rates of alcoholism and opioid abuse.

I would argue that a major contributing factor to high male suicide rates finds its origins in men’s need for purpose, function and accomplishment during this phase of life. Every day I read an article about how men my own age are dropping out of social discourse. I mentioned a Boston Globe article about just this phenomenon in Male Control. In some respects I can understand that despite the unprecedented connectivity we enjoy today men really don’t seek out bonds with other men. This is primarily due to the fact that men need a common purpose in order to form these bonds. Again, this is just how we’re wired. Women intentionally schedule time to simply interact with their same-sex friends just for the sake of communicating and enjoying the act of communicating. Men need function or a common purpose to come together. We need an activity or a problem to solve and then we communicate and form bonds.

Women talk, men do. This is a well studied fact; our brains and, by extension, social networks largely center on purpose and function. Now, lets presume that in spite of having literally all the information in the world at our finger tips we remove all need for the utility that men are wired to provide to not just women, but the larger scope of Society. We get a generation of men on the outside looking in. Only the most creative, resourceful and motivated of men can really utilize, much less master, all that this information has to offer him. And even a portion of those men can really see past the antipathy of their supposed obsolescence to do something truly meaningful or masterful. As the saying goes, most men live lives of quiet desperation, but in the modern era these men are demonstrably useless. And I mean that in a functional sense; once a Beta man has been wrung of his utility to women, he ceases to be able to convince his hindbrain that he can build, improvise or solve things.

Once a man is stripped of his usefulness, once it’s made clear that all of the equity he believed would support his relationship has been erased after so long, men will still resort to practical, deductive solutions. That solution may be suicide when weighed with the prospect of having to rebuild himself in a new context; and even if he did would he just be building a new ‘him’ based on his old belief set?

When my brother in-law committed suicide it seemed to me at the time to be the most logical end he would come to. He was a man very steeped in Blue Pill ideals, but he was also a man who prided himself on what he could do – and if he didn’t know how to do something he was always a fast learner. He literally built his life, and expectations of a future life, around the relational equity he believed defined him as a man. He was very invested in the old books, old social contract that rooted a man’s attractiveness and quality in what it was he could do. What he built for himself and his wife defined his identity.

All of that 20+ years of building equity and an identity based on it was erased for him in the space of about six months. But it was more than the 20 years he’d been saving, building, solving and refining, it was a perceived future he believed would be lived out for the rest of his life that got erased.

To me, at that time, his suicide made absolutely perfect sense from a male-deductive logic perspective. What didn’t make sense was all of the endless rationalizations I heard from his family, friends, his kids, his Ex (my now widowed sister in-law) about why they thought he went through with it when it was plain for anyone who wanted to confront the truth to see. A lot of these rationales were almost verbatim the same that the article I linked used. “If only men would reach out when they have suicidal thoughts”, any and every rationale that might absolve his Ex of the guilt, and still more that were meant to console her (he must’ve been mental ill) though in the end she really didn’t need it.

My brother in-law made a practical decision not an emotional one, and while I wouldn’t presume to say that a guy’s emotional state isn’t very influential in his suicide, how he comes to the decision is very much attributable to men’s deductive nature. He showed no outward signs of emotional distress. In fact, right up to his hanging himself he was in very good spirits and seemingly accepting of the fact that the wife he lived his life for was going to be leaving him soon. He was very matter of fact in a way that men are when they’ve resolved something for themselves. When a guy seems to be taking things in stride we don’t want to create a problem where we see none.

When we look in this context at the high rate of male suicide in this age demographic we begin to see how men come to this decision. Everything they’ve built up to 45-65 years of age is now debased, devalued or simply erased. All of the value and equity they’ve committed their lives to – doing the right thing according to their Blue Pill conditioning – is as if it never mattered. So they’re confronted with a choice, rebuild themselves (hopefully in a new Red Pill aware paradigm), reconstruct a new life and tough it out, or, simply, pragmatically erase themselves.

Personally, I’ve had at least two occasions where I’ve been confronted with rebuilding myself. It’s a tough prospect, make no mistake, especially when you’re Red Pill aware and understand the reality behind having to rebuild a life from scratch after so much investment in plans and projects you truly believed in when you made them. My father had to confront this rebuilding too at around 55 years of age, but rather than rebuild or kill himself I watched him slowly decay into a man I never knew could exist as my dad.

Zeroed Out

I apologize if this topic is a bit of a downer, but I think it ought to be part of any Red Pill aware man’s understanding that at many points in our lives we will be confronted with the prospects of having to rebuild ourselves. Failure, rejection and disappointment will happen for you, that’s just part of a man’s life, and it’s easy to rattle off platitudes about how many times you get back up being the measure of a man. But what I’m saying is there will be times when total reconstruction of your life will be a necessity.

You will be zeroed out at some point, and how you handle this is a much different situation than any temporary setback. This zeroing out is made all the more difficult when you confront the fact that what you believed to be so valuable, the equity you were told was what others would measure you by, was all part of your Blue Pill conditioning. At that point you need to understand that there is most definitely a hope for a better remake of yourself based on truths that were learned in the hardest way.

To end this I’m going to quote the comment of a man I met when I spoke at the 21 Convention in September. I won’t use his name, but after we talked he confessed that he was the commenter here. He’d made the trip to the convention to meet me face to face, to thank me for my work and gave me permission to use his example in a post. I won’t quote it entirely, but you can read the whole thing here. His situation is an example of, and inspiration for, everything I’ve illuminated in this essay

After a long marriage I divorced the mother of my children. A couple of years later, after some casual dating, I met a woman I would come to describe as my soulmate. I got married young – but this time, with all my infinite wisdom gained over the years – I was finally wise enough to pick a woman I was super compatible with.

We were together for a few years and even lived together. Things started out great and it was mostly smooth sailing until we moved in together – at which time I slowly allowed myself to be betaized in a slow motion, excruciating painful way.

About a month after breaking up with her I fully planned to commit suicide. I wrote a long letter explaining my rationalization and took other affirmative steps towards going through with it. About a week after I wrote the note – with D(eath) Day fast approaching – I took a break from getting my affairs in order to surf the net. I stumbled upon an Ask Reddit thread that was bad mouthing various subreddits. Some feminazi or male feminist mentioned the Red Pill subreddit as an example of a subreddit filled with craziness, and I decided to check what all of the fuss was about. Now

I’m not a religious man, but I will never rule out divine intervention. The timing of finding TRP – by complete coincidence no less – couldn’t have been more fortuitous. I stayed up all night reading the side bar – Rollo’s essays having the deepest effect on me – and everything…just…clicked….Talk about connecting the dots! Wow! It was very much like a come to Jesus moment. It was like divinity revealed secret knowledge to me just when I needed it the most – knowledge that gave me hope and very well may have saved my life. This all went down not really that long ago in actual time – but from where I metaphorically stand now it seems like an eternity.

Stay strong my friends, you can rebuild yourself even in the face of being zeroed out.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Mark
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Mark
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Suicide for a person like me (30 khv) seems like a rational solution. I’m becoming less and less interested in hedonistic experiences and i dont have any purpose in world. Even red pillers forget that guys like me exist and seem to remember as an anecdotical joke once topic reaches inexperience and missed opportunities. I’m not getting any younger and the most potential (transformation wise) times like highschool or college/uni are beyond me. There’s irreversable damage done and i have to live with consequences which eat me every day. Its not a sharp pain but the one who reminds itself… Read more »

M Simon
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Blaximus
December 2, 2017 at 3:56 pm

For good odds in a LTR you don’t pick the woman. She picks you. If she does not have oneitis for you the odds are not good.

M Simon
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Mark
December 2, 2017 at 4:54 pm

Do not identify.
Do not consider.
Do not tell lies.
Do not express negative emotions.

For the meaning of all that read The Fourth Way by Ouspensky. He was a student of Gurdjieff.

The Last X-Man
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@Blaximus Amen to that. Wise words. I’ve screen shotted your comment and I’m going to send it to a few game aware friends of mine who don’t have the patience to read RM. I fully understand where Westray is coming from. Even with the golden advice on here regarding maintaining a marriage, given how most modern societies are today, is marriage still really worth the risk? And I think the answer to that is family; if children and a good family is something you desire then it probably is, if it isn’t, then maybe it’s not worth putting yourself in… Read more »

Blaximus
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In the current climate, under existing circumstances, marriage is not advisable for the average dude.

Pretty much for the same reasons as 50,000 mile auto tuneups shouldn’t be attempted by the average man. Tools and knowledge required or else a running auto will be reduced to a non running one.

Blaximus
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@ Mark Welcome. The word of the day is: Perspective. Who says a Man’s best days are ever behind him, or that he’s ever ‘ lost out ‘? Ask yourself where this is coming from? Watch that inner dialog my friend. Pay attention to what you’re feeding your brain. Nothing is ever really over until dirt is being thrown on a casket, and we are all headed to that eventuality. So what’s to stop us from making the most of our time? Short version of a story ( I don’t remember if I’ve shared this before or not…. Memory isn’t… Read more »

hank holiday
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@Mark 30 is not too late. Those “formative” experiences in high school and college aren’t the end all be all. If you talk to people who had “great” times in college, most of them are miserable now and fat and ugly. You ever follow up on the prom queens, the quarterbacks, the popular kids? Most of them have since reeeeaaallly let themselves go. Talk to other people, they’ll tell you the same. Divorced, saddled with alimony, or they have tons of little kids they have to take care of now… What fucks people over is they think the made it,… Read more »

Blaximus
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…. Lol, Jesus I butchered the fuck out of that story.

Blaximus
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Guys that put Jessica Simpson on a pedestal are probably a bit shocked. Lol.

Don’t.

Don’t ever pedestalize them.

What someone else is doing or not doing has no bearing on your mission.

.. Something like that.

SJF
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PlaydontPay: “Talk about clown game! How long do you think you can maintain the emotional rollercoaster?” Mersonia: “That’s actually a really good question. How long can anyone really keep it up. How long can game which girls will grow accustomed too stand and if you are in a marriage is it upheld by desire or just the fact that the female has invested(lol idk if thats good word (I think become accustomed to being part of your life is better) so much in it that she just decides its better to stay. I’d really like someone with game and that… Read more »

bigjohn33
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The overrepresentation of white men among suicide statistics is fascinating. I don’t buy the idea that white men are killing themselves in droves because political correctness dictates they are evil privileged racists and they can’t bear their collective guilt. They can’t possibly be that dumb. It absolutely makes sense that white men have an evolved thirst for problem solving, building, and work which when unfulfilled leads to self-destructive behavior. This innate industriousness explains the drastic differences in the types of societies that white and non-Asian minorities build. It is also very interesting that African Americans, who are drastically worse-off by… Read more »

SJF
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@Blaximus “…. Lol, Jesus I butchered the fuck out of that story.” Which brings up the topic of fucking up and getting butt-hurt about it. Or moving on. Hell I even wonder if I was in my right mind when I just quoted FreeNortherner blog on his Die When You Are Done essay. Seems like any suicidal guy would say: “OK, I’m done. Can’t complete my mission. So I’ll abort”. I have no reference experiences in suicide. But I know to advise against it. It’s not worth the lack of future promise in my book. But what do I know.… Read more »

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[…] today this post about men and suicide. As usual, pretty much every sentence of the post causes a new thought to pop into ones head, so I […]

Sentient
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The Last X Man “I’ve never been in a “serious” relationship, so my own experience is limited” This. “if a man settles down with a woman I can’t really see how he won’t be automatically less desirable” Using dog logic, yes. Cats are not dogs. “he is no longer the thing she wanted but couldn’t entirely have” You think Fleezer’s wife thinks she “has” him entirely? “the uncertainty of her becoming a permanent recipient of his valued attention is lost.” Not at all. You can be lying next to someone and be a million miles a way. You ever things… Read more »

westray
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“I call bullshit on Westray’s comments in the context of not self improving as an enlightened male that can and should be acting in his own self interests.” I wasn’t talking about self-improvement at all. Go do your deadlifts in the garage and read Deida all you want. Won’t change the fact that when the girl goes batshit (half do) she can have you jailed on a whim and nearly painless self inflicted arm scratch. Blax, I get all that you’re saying. The internalization, vetting etc. but I still think you’re simply bringing it back to your own success and… Read more »

theasdgamer
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To continue your car metaphor; What if it took 25 years of high level mechanics schooling just to get an AMC Hornet to turn over? Not worth it. That’s how I feel about learning game to maintain an LTR with a western Anglo bint. Does it really take 25 years to develop unconscious competence? I don’t think so. When you throw in the fact that the burden of performance is nearly constant and eternal Kind of like breathing is nearly constant and for as long as you live…it’s such an effort to breathe…fuck that shit… …the point is that once… Read more »

westray
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So develop your everlasting game…for what? Once again, it’s all for an AMC Hornet. Not worth it.

Just Saying
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I slowly allowed myself to be betaized in a slow motion, excruciating painful way. This is why you NEVER allow them to move in – you have them come for the night, then go home. And never let one monopolize your time – always have several that you can call upon. That way when one gets upset for whatever reason, you bail and move on to the next one while the first gets her shit together. A man with options when it comes to women, is one that never needs to worry about not having a warm place to relax… Read more »

andreasooka
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I don’t trust your writing as of late any longer, Mr Rollo Tomassi. I have started to ask myself whether or not your writings somehow is being coopted by feminine interests. Take this post for example. You set out all fine and well, seemingly readying yourself to argue against the notion of males being obsolete as claimed by feminists. But then you don’t. After having merely presented the idea of masculinity being redundant on a societal level, you just leave it at that and you skip to continuing your discussion on an individual level. Where indeed you suddenly full out… Read more »

rugby11
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cheupez
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The most painful thing about this post is the fact that ONLY THE MEN GIVE A FUCK, YET THEY ARE NOT THE ONES WE ARE DYING FOR!

Indiana, thanks for being there for your dad.

william
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I get a good sense of usefulness supporting a sugarbaby along with a wife and kids.

IAS
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@William: your beta bucks game is strong!
Too bad that negotiated desire doesn’t really exist…

The Last X-Man
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@SJF Great comment on what it takes to manage an LTR, if one decides to enter one. @Sentient I can’t argue with your breakdown at all. What you, Blax and SJF have been asserting is what’s needed to maintain an LTR. In all honesty, it’s not knowledge I wasn’t aware of, it’s just that the horror stories I hear damn near everyday, and read on here sometimes, have made me cynical regarding relationships despite the tools a man may have when entering one, so I had come to the conclusion that no matter who were you were entering an LTR… Read more »

Playdontpay
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@ mersonia Listen boy I do get it, trust me on that. I’ve been here and on illimitable men for 4 years now. I don’t practice PUA techniques or run clown game or try to keep a pedestalised piece of pussy around by taking her little brain on emotional road trips, that’s her fucking job. Looks/physique matter Lifestyle matters Power matters Alpha attitude matters So you crack on pandering to these little girls emotional whims to get some short term pussy until they figure out your just an actor, a facsimile of an alpha. Meanwhile I’ll be over here being… Read more »

Sentient
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Mersonia “That’s actually a really good question. How long can anyone really keep it up. How long can game which girls will grow accustomed too stand and if you are in a marriage is it upheld by desire or just the fact that the female has invested(lol idk if thats good word (I think become accustomed to being part of your life is better) so much in it that she just decides its better to stay.” Interesting question. Part one. “How long can game which girls will grow accustomed too stand” Well she is programmed to follow. So a large… Read more »

Sentient
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Playdontpay

“Looks/physique matter
Lifestyle matters
Power matters
Alpha attitude matters”

But they matter because they evoke emotion and feeling. Don’t overlook that when thinking about emotional engagement and emotional leading.

To a woman the only Truth is emotion. How she processes her emotions keeps the hypergamous reflex in check or not.

Blaximus
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Not bad at all.

ST
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Zeroed our just happens, it’s random. Based on your choices sure, but in a world of disposable men it is just random. So be ready for it. Women will zero you in a moment, I don’t care how into you they were are. So be ready. I Ben zeroed it has to happen to know what it means. She comes home and says she met someone else. The guy who fucking painted your house. Zeroed. You give and give and no one gives a shit. You work somewhere twenty years and you lose it in a day. You don’t see… Read more »

Playdontpay
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@ st

“If you can’t leave, you can’t stay”

Truth

O.B.I.T.
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I would have titled this great post Zeroed Out, because while it initially touches on suicidal thoughts and actions it then goes way beyond. There is one especially dangerous moment when many men face the Zero Hour — it’s called retirement. So much of what you are or were may be gone in an instant. The most deadly serious thing my usually jolly grandfather ever said to me was “Don’t ever retire.” (The second most serious thing was “Don’t ever get old” — but what’s the alternative?) If you’re heading toward that stage do some serious planning in advance and… Read more »

Blaximus
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@ palma Menopause. YIKES!!!!!! lol. According to my wife’s gyno, she is pre menopausal. I can’t really tell any difference as of yet, but I made myself aware of what will be happening to her physically, hormonally and emotionally, so I won’t be caught flat footed believing that she’s gone batshit crazy. Having watched a few women go into menopause already ( my mom was the first I’d gotten to observe first hand, up close ), the severity of symptoms can vary greatly. Whatever happens though, I am ready for it as I understand it ( symptoms) will be temporary.… Read more »

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@ sentient

Agree, and if I have the 4 areas I outlined handled her emotions will mostly take care of themselves with minimal input from me.

Build it and they will come.

Arnie McKinnis (@amckinnis)
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I am right in the middle of that demographic you mentioned. My own personal experience isn’t as important as one fact of Men in this age group – all started their careers before Personal Computers, Mobile/Smart Phones, Social Media (or even the explosion of “media” at all – cable TV was in its infancy). Many of us “grew up” in an age when it was still possible to have a “career” that spanned your entire professional/income earning years with one single company. So the path of (1) Get a college degree, (2) go to work for a Fortune 500 company… Read more »

Roused
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Some really good stuff here. I don’t have much time as I’m knee deep in work. Got up at the crack of dawn to start working today and took a 30 minute break to read TRM. I’ve been non-existent here for the past six weeks or so after a series of minor unfortunate events that I had to attend to. First, @IndianaJones, thanks for sharing. Hang in there man. Come back and keep us updated if it helps. @Blax, shit, man….YOU ARE FUCKING SPOT ON BROTHER! @SJF, You learn, you study, you act, you get mentors, you have desire to… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@Sentient @play

But they matter because they evoke emotion and feeling. Don’t overlook that when thinking about emotional engagement and emotional leading.
To a woman the only Truth is emotion. How she processes her emotions keeps the hypergamous reflex in check or not.

True. But play and other men don’t need to understand women unless those men make a misstep. We all have our ups and downs. So there may come a time when understanding women is helpful even for men like play. Can I hear an “amen” from Blax and Ton?

Blaximus
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And if you kill yourself, technically you don’t get shit.

Blaximus
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@ ASD

True, men don’t need to understand women, but I encourage men to try to understand them none the less.

From a biological and even religious standpoint, women are here for me. All women. Even the fat ones, lol. And 90% of them are hardwired to respond to me as a man, in a mostly positive manner. They can’t help it. It’s reflexive as a cough or laughter

So understanding them works only to your benefit. Otherwise they can appear as a shitload of aliens living among us.

mersonia
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“Listen boy I do get it, trust me on that. I’ve been here and on illimitable men for 4 years now.”

Shit there’s probably not any hope for you then lol. lol You’ve been on illimitable men and you still don’t get this shit lmao. Just because you get a boner for looks doesn’t mean girls do

Ronin
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Game in itself will not prevent being zeroed, the idea that a man must never plateau is an impossibility as well…In the end you will look back at all the time you spent trying to please women and chasing pussy as being a colossal waste of resources. The other gorilla in the room is menopause, a bat shit crazy switch all women flip just when you think you can slow down a bit and enjoy the fruits of your labors. Your life will become hell and you’ll wish she did run off with the guy who painted your house. My… Read more »

Blaximus
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Well…. That’s one way to look at it I guess.😀 But, there’s no ” batshit crazy ” switch being flipped. If it appears that way, it only means you don’t understand what’s going on and become frustrated. Frustration isn’t good. And yeah, if you live in her frame ( ie you look forward to slowing down and are thrown by her disapproval… Wtf????) Then she will do what you’ve empowered her to do. Simple and basic. No man should ever feel he must duck and hide shit from a woman in his life. If this is the case, you have… Read more »

Blaximus
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Re: working. I’ve been at my current job going on 22 years in 2018. Every one of those 22 years, I’ve understood that my employment could be terminated at any time. Why? Basically because my name wasn’t on the sign above the entrance. And I realized this long before coming to work for my current employer. If I got let go, at 56, tomorrow, would I be bummed or saddened? Yes to the extent that I’m only 2 years into my 5 year plan of maximizing my retirement funding. But after 30 years in this field, I’m good to go… Read more »

Westray
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Me: When you throw in the fact that the burden of performance is nearly constant and eternal ASDgamer: Kind of like breathing is nearly constant and for as long as you live…it’s such an effort to breathe…fuck that shit… That’s such a lackluster analogy on your part. ‘Breathing’ compared to navigating the SMP in a world of obesity, violently gynocentric laws, full-on sexist divorce courts, social media smv inflation, unleashed solipsism, 50 years of cultural misandry, legislated hypergamy, VAWA etc all for a ‘reward’ that is dwarfed by the risk involved to get it, if it even qualifies as a… Read more »

Playdontpay
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@ mersonia Your right obviously girls absolutely don’t get tingles for good looking men ( fitness/ health marker) or men who can physically dominate other males, Alphas generally look like Alphas after all. Yea it’s all about game and taking them on that emotional rollercoaster while working your crappy 9-5 until they figure out you’re a fraud. I get a boner for looks, they get tingles for a man with a lifestyle they want to step into and who can protect them, lead them and make their friends jelous, they are heard animals after all. Tell me exactly what is… Read more »

Ronin
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Blaximus, yes there is a switch and it’s hormonal and very well documented. How it effects individual women varies, I’ve watched my mother go through it, my sister, my x and wives of numerous friends who spend most of their time trying to placate this woman they no longer recognize or hide out in the man cave and hope it all blows over before divorce rears its ugly head. Go read some women’s menopause forums for a real eye opener, watch how they go at onset of Peri from being concerned about their change in behavior effecting their marriage to… Read more »

Blaximus
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Placate??

Oh my, no.

I’ve witnessed menopause myself ( and will again soon ). Hormonal, yes. I don’t need go read menopause ” forums ” to understand it. Don’t care for the worst case scenarios.

You’re actually making my case for understanding vs frustrated attempts at placating. Never placate a woman.

cheupez
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“If you are over 45 forget about women

I know many 45 yr olds and looking at them, I dont think that is good age to quit on women.

theasdgamer
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@Westray Most of your issues are only fears, not real problems. Men with understanding can easily avoid misandrist social and legal shit without even training a woman if their game is unconsciously competent. The biggest hangup is going to be social media–dealing with that requires training a girl. Social media unleashes solipsism on steroids, so a woman’s social media use needs to be restricted and regulated and that requires training a woman and that a woman be accountable to her man for her use of social media…her social media accounts must be open to her man. LTRs are a big… Read more »

Ronin
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Blaximus, I think you are getting my point wrong, I’m describing what I’ve seen, not what I agree with, husbands doubling down trying to please their menopausal wives in a last ditch effort to try and turn the Titanic around. It might delay the inevitable, but the end remains the same for most. Dread and game won’t work either on a wife who in her own mind six months ago has already left the relationship and planned her exit strategy, even if it did the prize is not worth having.

O.B.I.T.
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Why do men suicide more than women? In a TRM context the answer is simple — women tend to dismiss any situation as not their fault. Men take more responsibility.

Much is made of some stat that women ATTEMPT more suicides than men, but with more failures. Again, the TRM-based answer would be Men Do, Women Talk. A failed attempt is a form of communication, not action.

O.B.I.T.
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“Lighten up the cross, it’s a lonnnng journey,” singer Annette Peacock advises in a nice moment on an old Bill Bruford album. Of course there are terrible situations and clinical conditions that lead to suicidal thoughts, but sometimes it’s just self-blame and negative thoughts — like, “I can’t go on without X,” or “I let X down, I didn’t measure up.” It’s one thing to set goals and strive for improvement, but don’t give other people (especally women and especially menopausal nutjobs!) veto-power over your agenda and your sense of self-worth. Rest cheerfully assured that even those closest to you… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
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Oh, and as Columbo would say, “just one more thing.” Ozzy Osbourne turns 69 today. If he somehow hasn’t done himself in as yet, there’s hope for us all.

It sounds so old-fashioned, but find something to laugh at, even if it’s yourself. Or as Dorothy Parker put it,

Guns aren’t lawful
Nooses give
Gas smells awful
You might as well live

Ronin
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cheupez, Quit on women for the Monk Mode period, not indefinitely… That said, women 45 and over are a rapidly depreciating asset. The ones I was interested in when I first became single six years ago in that age range have not weathered very well , most of them are still single post divorce five to 8 years on. Women age very quickly once menopause kicks in..

Mr. Roboto
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@Rollo This is one of your greatest essays ever, thanks man!!! “My father had to confront this rebuilding too at around 55 years of age, but rather than rebuild or kill himself I watched him slowly decay into a man I never knew could exist as my dad.” My dad is in the same situation that your dad was, after he turned 60 he has been decaying more and more each year. I don´t really know what to do or how can I help him, he is too old to be red pilled (he´s 67) and he is very ego… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
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Yeah, The Wall that women hit in their 30s is legendary here but wait until you see The Pavement they hit around 60 — from about 12 stories up. I’ve been attracted to plenty of women in their 50s but it’s like hitting a rapidly moving and diminishing target

Blaximus
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@ Ronin ” Blaximus, I think you are getting my point wrong, I’m describing what I’ve seen, not what I agree with, husbands doubling down trying to please their menopausal wives in a last ditch effort to try and turn the Titanic around. It might delay the inevitable, but the end remains the same for most. Dread and game won’t work either on a wife who in her own mind six months ago has already left the relationship and planned her exit strategy, even if it did the prize is not worth having.” Ronin, your probably right that I’m getting… Read more »

Ronin
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palmasailor, Yeah I know, I think that’s why in some cultures a man of means would have more than one wife. When the old one was no longer attractive enough or interested, she was promoted out of the bedroom for a younger one.. My current lady is past menopause and still has a strong sex drive, she also told me her menopause was very mild compared to most of her friends and most of them are “Past Sex”. Whether there is any correlation between the severity of the bat shit crazy and sex drive after menopause I don’t know.. Up… Read more »

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While I’m talking about this, I have a question for everyone – In YOUR real life experience, have you seen a very large number of women 30 and over slamming into walls? I hear this refrain constantly in the manosphere, and I get suspicious now that a bunch of men just repeat this by rote. I personally have witnessed some chicks crash into ” the Wall “, but this isn’t true for the majority that I know. But evidently it’s wide spread enough where manospherians are adopting it as an absolute gospel truth. 30? Done. Lmfao. So fellas, what’s your… Read more »

Mr. Roboto
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Off topic

About Prince Harry´s engagement I think that the worst thing is not the confirmation of Harry being Beta but the message that women are getting:

“You are free to find yourself during your 20´s (aka ride the CC), marry beta bucks after hitting the Wall at 30, divorse him and explore new options (aka correct the soul mate mistake) and you still can land prince charming at 40 even if you are an objectively average woman”

I am sure this will feed even more unrealistic fantasies among women and divorce rape rates will increase.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/10/01/TELEMMGLPICT000142360949_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqWXa3FICwamSPROpILqgHIPtQVilC_QnuAnr9_bc_g38.jpeg?imwidth=480

Ronin
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Blaximus, it’s the old story, women marry hoping to change a man, men hope their wife doesn’t change, both end up disappointed . All you need to know about women is to have a cat in the house, They are temperamental, demanding of attention, finicky and you have to deal with their shit everyday..

Ronin
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palmasailor, The batshit crazy has always been there, but there used to be brakes on female behavior because of limited options. Hell prior to the late 1960’s, even a women’s peers would reel her back in if she was after someone who was “Not good husband material”. , the threat of single motherhood with no support was also ever present. Now there are few restrictions on women and certainly no social shaming or restraints.

Blaximus
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” All you need to know about women is to have a cat in the house….”

My cat sits and rolls over on command.

Lol.

O.B.I.T.
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Blax I’m generally attracted to older women so I don’t really see the physical aspects of hitting The Wall. What I definitely have seen is the pretty quick turnaround at that age from AF to BB in their choice of men — something I never quite put my finger on until reading TRM. And what I have heard is biological time clocks loudly ticking (I wisely dodged one very attractive time bomb who wanted to breed with me). So it’s behavior more than looks, maybe from the sense that a whole new cohort of younger women is breathing down their… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
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Mr Roboto
Where to start — has your dad been screened for any possible chemical imbalance, nutrient deficiency, early Alzheimer’s onset, chronic pain and so on? Is he physically limited or able to walk, exercise, shop, socialize? Is he alone a lot or are there friends and family nearby?

O.B.I.T.
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… And maybe most important, is he on any medications that might be affecting his mood and outlook

Ronin
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palmasailor, yes we are in a new territory as men post 50-60, a whole different thing for us than guys under 45. I have to admit I was amazed by female interest in me when I got zeroed at 56, some of them just under 30. I was too shell shocked at the time to recognize what was going on,, but then I’d not even kissed another women since I met my X Circa 1987. .Short of a few fitness model competitors I’ve met in the gym, the number I see over 50 that I find attractive are very few… Read more »

Ronin
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Blaximus, I inherited my daughter’s cat, otherwise wouldn’t have one in the house. I had the dog train him, when he pisses me off I sick the dog on him,

theasdgamer
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@Blax

I think that you misunderstand what is meant by “hitting the Wall.” I think that it refers to women being past child-bearing age (eggs dead) and entering menopause with a loss of femininity and youth and some beauty. At what precise age women hit the Wall depends on the individual woman’s fertility. That’s my understanding. Maybe others think differently.

Ronin
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palmasailor, true enough, but most can find a safe berth with some thirsty guy it they really had to. The thirst is mighty with some guys, I meet just such as guy a couple of weeks ago, he’s on his second marriage and was going on about what a catch his current wife is… then I met her, an obese midget of a women whose every order he follows without question. There are a lot of articles out there by women bemoaning becoming “Invisible at 50”, some of them when you check out their early articles from years gone are… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
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ASD
I understood The Wall to mean early to mid 30s — the time when their SMV curve is starting to drop pretty sharply. Some of them are starting to lose their looks as well but even if they look sharp there are (largely negative) behavioral changes.

EhIntellect
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Westray,

I’ve heard your zero sum definition of Alpha before.

IMO, it’s a matter of perspective.

I’m a father of many children, many boys, red-pilled. That’s force multiplication. 1+1=??

Is that power? Fully grown successful adults emotionally bonded, working for my well being, as well as theirs? My family tree is right side up. It is possible, you know…

Life’s not a win-lose fixed pie. When my wife wins, I don’t lose.

Women require our RP stewardship.

Let’s stick to the RP script give it to them.

EhIntellect
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With my kids I’ve discussed a attempted/successful suicides known to our family over the last 20 years. All men 16-25. All born from a perceived lack of options. Men from successful, albeit BP families. Athletic, popular guys…who felt that wasnt enough, who they were becoming was failure. One father painfully admitted this: “As religious as I am, it never prepared me for this.” Society requires an all in approach to maintaining the power structure as is. Men propel it, women are manipulated to ensure men stay dutifully in it. All aspects focus not on human well being but limiting their… Read more »

EhIntellect
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On a lighter note, we do have purpose:

Was out with wife and sister, at the bar. Pretty lady, 30’s slim shoulders exposed. She’s trying to unlodge the ketchup. You know, smacking the backside.

“Nice shoulders…pause…but you’re doing it wrong.” I take the bottle and ask her “Where do you want it?” and slap the front side…viola! Ketchup deluge.

“See ladies? Men are awesome, ain’t we? We pour your ketchup, install your toilets. What would you do without us?BTW, only the first one’s free.”

That got a laugh from the guys nearby.

robpaxton
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Generally, I lurk but I wanted to jump in just to say thank you again, Rollo. You truly are doing the Lord’s work here, whether you believe it or not. Keep saving lives.

Anonymous Reader
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“Toxic masculinity” is welcome at Shotgun Willies in Glendale, Colorado. It’s not irony, it’s sincere. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/colorado-strip-club-sign-toxic-masculinity-glendale The woman who put it up is not apologetic. “I didn’t put that up because of marketing,” Dunafon said in an interview. “I put it up because I’ve been watching what’s going on in our country as far as men are concerned and it’s infuriating. “I have a son, I have four grandsons, and I feel sorry for my grandsons because they’re all teenagers and I’m afraid for them. I’m wondering if they’re gonna have to make girls sign a contract before they can… Read more »

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A Denver feminist objected. This is her:

https://www.sexcraft.co/velvetempress

It’s not the “toxic” they object to. It’s the masculinity. Try getting a feminist to even admit that there’s a problem with male suicide, it’s as Rollo noted in the OP.

Yollo Comanche
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That statue is bad-ass. But isn’t the beak on that bird a bit long for a canary?

theasdgamer
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As I have said there is a hole in the manosphere as a lot of commmentators haven’t been Round the total loop.

Mrs. Gamer is postmenopausal and she still wants sex. I have data points. Do you have a postmenopausal wife?

So marriage is not for the long haul? 30+ years and counting…

dr zipper
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dr zipper
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“Mrs. Gamer is postmenopausal and she still wants sex”

ya, just not with you zing! lololol

theasdgamer
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well, not with you either…P

O.B.I.T.
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I know there’s a lot of media mention about the “opioid crisis,” but do you hear much reported about male suicides? It seems to me the media is more fixated on teen suicides — maybe because this might be more of a girl-related thing.

Anonymous
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TRM saved my life. I have no doubt.

SJF
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My wife only has a handful of eggs left. She’s peri-menopausal. Which means she is surprised when a new period comes. Which did two weeks ago. It was awful. But tolerable. But that depends on who you ask. https://youtu.be/qeWduNomDqY It was long, nearly a week. A week later she texted me from the bedroom as I was dealing with the subcomms the prior week: ” Drunk or coming to bed?” So I went up and she fucked me. Later she figured she was ovulating then and explained to me that when a woman is ovulating that that is the time… Read more »

rugby11
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Self surgery and dealing with… Staying in the present… This post hits close to home for me… The thing’s that brought me into the this community have been extreme moment’s of human experience without collaboration. Everything in life is a process or a spiral. Today i was thinking about the amount of time i have devoted in saving anything that was meant for its own transformation. In a lot of way’s that is what the process and purpose of this community is for me. It’s a way to re build yourself for yourself while enjoying your ability to be a… Read more »

SJF
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So, Rugby This space is a collaboration. “Everything is a process or a spiral” Which is your reference experience and vague. You’ve been here long enough to know what the order of business is. What are are you’re sticking points and what can we help you to move on with the business of being a masculine male? It seems that via your sport you have vicarious strength, courage, mastery and honor among men in the sport of Rugby. What the hell are you doing in the realm of sport-fucking women? Sorry to be so crude in the asking. But if… Read more »

anton
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anton
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“I stayed up all night reading the side bar – Rollo’s essays having the deepest effect on me – and everything…just…clicked”

Rollo you are saving lives!

Markos Beers
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Can’t help but notice that the OMGs often sound as unicorny as the NAWALT crowd.

Yes, perhaps not ALL marriages are like that, yet, for all intents and purposes it seems NAMALT is quite similar to the cri de couer of NAWALT.

The bottom line seems to be one of Frame and all the other things here. One must enter knowing what is absolutely vital to prevent the natural betaization that so often comes with cohabitating, marriage, and children.

One must vet BOTH/ALL ways, you/her and the surrounding family/community systems.

And be vigilant.

Keith
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I don’t get the art work ? Shouldn’t it be a dragon in the center of the sculpture instead of a bird ?

boulderhead
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@Kieth

The canary in the coal mine is there to test the atmosphere, when it dies GTFO now. I was thinking this canary looks to healthy for todays climate, bad air.

newlyaloof
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I remember being a typical teenager where you go through the rewiring phase and the world makes no sense, and you hate your parents, and you feel trapped in a house with siblings and no privacy, and you don’t know what you want to do with your life, and your pimple-faced-self is down in the dumps. I remember being amazed at how while I felt I was a fighter with the “fight or die” mentality, I simultaneously had suicidal thoughts. I heard a random comment that helped me through it though – “You can’t fall off the floor.” Feel like… Read more »

boulderhead
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@SJF The natural alpha experience is far different, he is less likely to project as he has always been the screen for others projecting. The runners high can become a great escape, the sense of peace is overwhelming and much welcomed. He will always be judged by his potential and manipulated by the games other weaker people have adopted to their own ends and agendas. It is one thing to have them build you up to your full potential, quite another to be constantly boxed into a safe, controllable space because weaker men and women feel threatened. The constant battle… Read more »

Markos Beers
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@SJF

“Your past is not prologue”

Nicely phrased.

boulderhead
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Of the, should be that the.

Markos Beers
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@boulderhead

Yes, we are each of us biased by our own experience. The naturals often struggle as coaches. Here they have all this mastery, yet work mightily to convey it. Or don’t bother and let others try to figure out how they did it.

Oscar C.
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Excellent advice being given here. In the past I would have linked adulthood with sex, but now I think it has to do with realizing how utterly meaningless life is. Once that sinks in, Blax’ advice about adopting a radically self-centered MPO is no doubt the best bet. Consumerism gets a bad rap but if you can abstain from maxing out your cards it is as good a motivation as anything else. I was ultra greedy as a kid and very happy, now there is almost nothing I really would like to buy and far more miserable, so that’s that.… Read more »

Oscar C.
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*excited

@newlyaloof

I never went through that ‘teenage phase’ of rebellion and self-doubt, and I wonder if I should have. I have always had a great relationship with my parents and it is only now when approaching 30 that being at home feels a bit trapping (and it is mostly due to the difficulty in getting laid while living like that, otherwise I would be pretty happy). I am a single kid and that probably matters in this.

Keith
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@ boulderhead I don’t think a man is a coal mine. It’s like they using a bird to depict life inside a man. Like it’s delicate or vulnerable. The resaon you put a bird in a cage is to keep it safe. I don’t know maybe Rollo try to say take care of your core self with this art. That maybe your mental health is just as important as physical health. It’s great timing on this the holiday season is hard on divorced fathers and lack of daylight and lethargy of cold winter can be depressing as hell. Movement is… Read more »

boulderhead
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@Markos

Take for instance a HS football coach, seeing a natural alpha, the alpha becomes his mark. The coach will approach, open, create comfort and close the deal. Coach has his agenda, building a winning team. The alpha is being played, he may enjoy the attention but he will have to give up his MPO for the team. This becomes a full time job.

Now alphas make great coaches, it takes years to grow through the experience of being coached into the position of coaching. A total paradigm shift.

The naturals friends growing up also recognize his potential, the coaching dynamics are similar.

EhIntellect
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@ Oscar

“Consumerism gets a bad rap but if you can abstain from maxing out your cards it is as good a motivation as anything else.”

There are much better options. Stuff, sex, knowledge are just that. They might be buffers for powerlessness elsewhere. It’s not you.

Blax said it clearly above. Watch your internal dialogue.

boulderhead
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@Keith

It is Rollos artwork. The world is a stage and everyone is a critic, art is open to interpretation.

My interpretation is, using the canary in the coalmine analogy, the mans heart is the canary when it dies, if he doesn’t get moving into better space he will soon die.

Seeing the dead canary and staying at work in the coal mine is a form of suicide.

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