Men and Suicide

Before I launch in here today I need to confess that this post has been in my drafts folder for a while now. As most of my readers are aware I’ve known two personal friends who’ve taken their own lives as a result of having their Blue Pill conditioned beliefs set them on a path to self destruction. One of the more important parts of my charter when I started writing was to reach the men who were at their wits’ end in figuring out how to deal with their personal, romantic or married lives that had until then been directed by what their Blue Pill acculturation and their understanding of intersexual dynamics were molded to be. Since I started and stopped and then restarted this topic again there have been a few recent developments in my perspective on men taking their own lives as a result of the Blue Pill’s influence on them.

All of this really began about two months ago while I was engaging in a debate (or what passes for debate) on Twitter with a very unsympathetic woman who thought she’d set me straight about why it is men choose to take their own lives at a far greater rate than women. As it stands today, men are statistically between 4 and 5 times more likely than women to kill themselves. For most Red Pill aware men this is a fairly well known stat and one that gets quoted often enough when women trot out their own stats about abuse or whatever issue they think it is that MRA are ‘confused’ about. They usually get owned when this sort of back and forth goes down, but I’m always drawn to the comparative issues women think are equitable to that of men losing their lives.

Men’s disposability is also nothing new to the manosphere. Sperm is cheap, eggs are scarce and men are expected to sacrifice their lives for the security and betterment of women even in the most patriarchal of prior social orders. It’s always interesting to me that issues of mandatory male conscription into the military (potential death) and the unignorable high male suicide rates are something women still won’t accept as being a pretty raw deal for men. Women’s innate solipsism will still compel women to find some “yeah, but;…” rationalization for men’s disposability. Whenever I bring something like this up the reflexive presumption is that I’m bemoaning men’s victim status for being disposable. However, it’s impossible to discuss male disposability without such a connotation. My issues isn’t one of seeking some equitable disposability for women, but rather it’s drawing attention to the way women react and rationalize away their own part in that disposability.

True Powerlessness

I covered a lot of this in Chivalry vs. Altruism, so I won’t belabor that here, but I will point out the inherent power imbalance in this disposability. I’ve stated in the past that true power is not the control we can exert over the lives of others, but rather the extent to which we have control over the direction of our own lives. When we discuss issues of power between men and women the real, ultimate, loss of that control is in the context of our deaths.

There is no greater powerlessness for men than a lack of control over our own disposability.

Again, this isn’t some cry of victimhood for men – I happen to believe there’s an evolved component in the male psychological firmware that actually predisposes us to sacrificing ourselves in lieu of the security of our women and children. That’s not so much altruism as it is an inborn subroutine for protecting women that triggers in life-threatening situations. When a mass shooter opens fire indiscriminately at a crowd of people it is the men, not the women, who instinctively put their bodies between that gun and women or children, even the one’s they don’t personally know.

In the bigger scope of things, men will always be more disposable than women, and on some level of consciousness women’s hindbrains instinctively understand this. As such, women’s conscious process must find ways to reconcile this understanding in order for them to move on from men’s sacrifices. Sometimes this can manifest in the War Brides phenomenon, but I would argue that in today’s social learning environment of mass media, instant gratification of women’ solipsism and feminine-primary social order, this reconciliation takes some even uglier turns. Today, women have become very efficient in consoling each other’s solipsistic rationalizing of men’s sacrifices. In this environment of default female victimization and presumed oppression even men’s ultimate sacrifice, men’s ultimate powerlessness in their own deaths, cannot ever be consciously or unconsciously acknowledged in a state of fempowerment.

While I had this debate it occurred to me that even men’s suicides could never be attributed to anything less than their own ‘male egos’ by women, thus making them victims of their conditioning into “toxic” masculinity. Essentially, women were arguing that men would put a noose around their necks because they were socially conditioned to do so. Their suicide rate was attributable to their self-pity and inability to be ‘real men’ as some nebulous toxic masculinity had predefined for them. I thought this was kind of ironic when you compare this reasoning to the narrative shift away from ‘toxic’ masculinity to masculinity itself is toxic. This is really a stupid argument when you consider that it’s just another social convention used to absolve women of the guilt associated with men’s sacrifices. Men are hardwired for self sacrifice, but likewise women had need to evolved psychological adaptations to help them clear the red from their life’s ledger in this respect.

So, in the end, it helps if women can fall back on social conventions that put the associated guilt of men’s sacrifices back on the men themselves. Chivalry and traditional masculinity are fine when they serve the Feminine Imperative, but if a man actually gets killed or kills himself as part of that, well, that’s on him then. And this is what I was beginning with in this debate; there will always be a desire for absolution of women’s guilt or complicity in the deaths of men. I should also add that in terms of war and men being drafted women regularly default to the same asinine presumption that if women were running the world that there would be no wars. I won’t dignify that with any deeper analysis than to say that this too is one more (feeble) way of looking for absolution in the sacrifices men make to facilitate women’s reality.

Suicide Solution

That still left the question, why do men take their own lives in such alarmingly high numbers compared to women? I had to do a bit of research on this, but the demographics for male suicide today show some patterns. 7 in 10 suicides are men (majority white) between the ages of 45 and 65. As expected from gynocentric media, the primary reason always cited is men’s so called stubbornness in seeking out psychiatric help before they attempt suicide – again absolving women’s influence of any complicity – but ignoring what would motivate men, and this demographic in particular, to suicide. Again, there’s no attempt to understand the underlying reasons for male suicide, only a stereotypically easy ‘male-stupid’ answer to absolve women’s complicity in it.

There’s a lot to consider and be sensitive of when it comes to male suicide, but I’m going to speculate about a few reasons here coming from a Red Pill perspective. At no other time in western history has there ever been a generation of more purposeless men. From an evolved psychological perspective, men need a function. We are innate idealists. We look outward at the world and like to imagine what could be possible. I believe there is also an innate part of our evolved mental firmware that predisposes us to problem solving and improvisation, and much of that comes as an adaptation to women’s own innate need for men who can display cues of competency.

In Competency I made the case for women’s attraction to men displaying signals of competency, confidence, mastery and creative intelligence as a selected-for survival adaptation. In short, our competency in life, whether stemming from physical prowess, social dominance or creative intelligence is integrally linked with our reproductive success as well as overall life success.

However, at no other time in history has men’s competency been so devalued and so debased; other than perhaps in terms of physical prowess and accommodating the short term (Alpha Fucks) breeding imperatives of women. At no other time in (western) history has the equity in what a man can provide or create or solve been so implicitly unnecessary or superfluous to women. When we consider the rates of college enrollment and graduation of women compared to that of men, when we consider the practical problems that men used to solve, our utility has never been less needed – or at least that’s the zeitgeist of today.

We read about how men need to accept this new social reality – that our need for purpose and function is no longer needed or as valued – and we need to change our headspace about it as if it were something men might simply turn off. This is the result of equalist beliefs that anything gender-specific is something learned rather than the innate firmware we were born with. But we cannot simply change our minds about needing a function. We evolved to be problem solvers, women talk, men do, but now we are expected to accept that men are obsolete.

Loss of Utility

In Relational Equity I made a case for men investing too much of their egos into what intrinsic (and extrinsic) value they believe their respective women ought to appreciate about themselves. Under the old books, old social contract this equity may have had some conditional value to women, but as a buffer against Hypergamy today there is very little a man might consider value-added equity (unless it’s exceedingly rare or exceedingly valued) as a hedge against Hypergamy. Before any defeatist critics tell me how not all women are like that, yes, I get it, there are a lot of variables to consider here, but the equation and the reality doesn’t change – relational equity, overall, is no insurance against Hypergamy. It is also no insurance against women’s security and providership needs being met by resources that come from outside that relationship. I’m not considering this because I’m trying to depress any man, but it is vitally necessary to consider when we look at reasons why 45-65 year old men are predisposed to higher rates of suicide and higher rates of alcoholism and opioid abuse.

I would argue that a major contributing factor to high male suicide rates finds its origins in men’s need for purpose, function and accomplishment during this phase of life. Every day I read an article about how men my own age are dropping out of social discourse. I mentioned a Boston Globe article about just this phenomenon in Male Control. In some respects I can understand that despite the unprecedented connectivity we enjoy today men really don’t seek out bonds with other men. This is primarily due to the fact that men need a common purpose in order to form these bonds. Again, this is just how we’re wired. Women intentionally schedule time to simply interact with their same-sex friends just for the sake of communicating and enjoying the act of communicating. Men need function or a common purpose to come together. We need an activity or a problem to solve and then we communicate and form bonds.

Women talk, men do. This is a well studied fact; our brains and, by extension, social networks largely center on purpose and function. Now, lets presume that in spite of having literally all the information in the world at our finger tips we remove all need for the utility that men are wired to provide to not just women, but the larger scope of Society. We get a generation of men on the outside looking in. Only the most creative, resourceful and motivated of men can really utilize, much less master, all that this information has to offer him. And even a portion of those men can really see past the antipathy of their supposed obsolescence to do something truly meaningful or masterful. As the saying goes, most men live lives of quiet desperation, but in the modern era these men are demonstrably useless. And I mean that in a functional sense; once a Beta man has been wrung of his utility to women, he ceases to be able to convince his hindbrain that he can build, improvise or solve things.

Once a man is stripped of his usefulness, once it’s made clear that all of the equity he believed would support his relationship has been erased after so long, men will still resort to practical, deductive solutions. That solution may be suicide when weighed with the prospect of having to rebuild himself in a new context; and even if he did would he just be building a new ‘him’ based on his old belief set?

When my brother in-law committed suicide it seemed to me at the time to be the most logical end he would come to. He was a man very steeped in Blue Pill ideals, but he was also a man who prided himself on what he could do – and if he didn’t know how to do something he was always a fast learner. He literally built his life, and expectations of a future life, around the relational equity he believed defined him as a man. He was very invested in the old books, old social contract that rooted a man’s attractiveness and quality in what it was he could do. What he built for himself and his wife defined his identity.

All of that 20+ years of building equity and an identity based on it was erased for him in the space of about six months. But it was more than the 20 years he’d been saving, building, solving and refining, it was a perceived future he believed would be lived out for the rest of his life that got erased.

To me, at that time, his suicide made absolutely perfect sense from a male-deductive logic perspective. What didn’t make sense was all of the endless rationalizations I heard from his family, friends, his kids, his Ex (my now widowed sister in-law) about why they thought he went through with it when it was plain for anyone who wanted to confront the truth to see. A lot of these rationales were almost verbatim the same that the article I linked used. “If only men would reach out when they have suicidal thoughts”, any and every rationale that might absolve his Ex of the guilt, and still more that were meant to console her (he must’ve been mental ill) though in the end she really didn’t need it.

My brother in-law made a practical decision not an emotional one, and while I wouldn’t presume to say that a guy’s emotional state isn’t very influential in his suicide, how he comes to the decision is very much attributable to men’s deductive nature. He showed no outward signs of emotional distress. In fact, right up to his hanging himself he was in very good spirits and seemingly accepting of the fact that the wife he lived his life for was going to be leaving him soon. He was very matter of fact in a way that men are when they’ve resolved something for themselves. When a guy seems to be taking things in stride we don’t want to create a problem where we see none.

When we look in this context at the high rate of male suicide in this age demographic we begin to see how men come to this decision. Everything they’ve built up to 45-65 years of age is now debased, devalued or simply erased. All of the value and equity they’ve committed their lives to – doing the right thing according to their Blue Pill conditioning – is as if it never mattered. So they’re confronted with a choice, rebuild themselves (hopefully in a new Red Pill aware paradigm), reconstruct a new life and tough it out, or, simply, pragmatically erase themselves.

Personally, I’ve had at least two occasions where I’ve been confronted with rebuilding myself. It’s a tough prospect, make no mistake, especially when you’re Red Pill aware and understand the reality behind having to rebuild a life from scratch after so much investment in plans and projects you truly believed in when you made them. My father had to confront this rebuilding too at around 55 years of age, but rather than rebuild or kill himself I watched him slowly decay into a man I never knew could exist as my dad.

Zeroed Out

I apologize if this topic is a bit of a downer, but I think it ought to be part of any Red Pill aware man’s understanding that at many points in our lives we will be confronted with the prospects of having to rebuild ourselves. Failure, rejection and disappointment will happen for you, that’s just part of a man’s life, and it’s easy to rattle off platitudes about how many times you get back up being the measure of a man. But what I’m saying is there will be times when total reconstruction of your life will be a necessity.

You will be zeroed out at some point, and how you handle this is a much different situation than any temporary setback. This zeroing out is made all the more difficult when you confront the fact that what you believed to be so valuable, the equity you were told was what others would measure you by, was all part of your Blue Pill conditioning. At that point you need to understand that there is most definitely a hope for a better remake of yourself based on truths that were learned in the hardest way.

To end this I’m going to quote the comment of a man I met when I spoke at the 21 Convention in September. I won’t use his name, but after we talked he confessed that he was the commenter here. He’d made the trip to the convention to meet me face to face, to thank me for my work and gave me permission to use his example in a post. I won’t quote it entirely, but you can read the whole thing here. His situation is an example of, and inspiration for, everything I’ve illuminated in this essay

After a long marriage I divorced the mother of my children. A couple of years later, after some casual dating, I met a woman I would come to describe as my soulmate. I got married young – but this time, with all my infinite wisdom gained over the years – I was finally wise enough to pick a woman I was super compatible with.

We were together for a few years and even lived together. Things started out great and it was mostly smooth sailing until we moved in together – at which time I slowly allowed myself to be betaized in a slow motion, excruciating painful way.

About a month after breaking up with her I fully planned to commit suicide. I wrote a long letter explaining my rationalization and took other affirmative steps towards going through with it. About a week after I wrote the note – with D(eath) Day fast approaching – I took a break from getting my affairs in order to surf the net. I stumbled upon an Ask Reddit thread that was bad mouthing various subreddits. Some feminazi or male feminist mentioned the Red Pill subreddit as an example of a subreddit filled with craziness, and I decided to check what all of the fuss was about. Now

I’m not a religious man, but I will never rule out divine intervention. The timing of finding TRP – by complete coincidence no less – couldn’t have been more fortuitous. I stayed up all night reading the side bar – Rollo’s essays having the deepest effect on me – and everything…just…clicked….Talk about connecting the dots! Wow! It was very much like a come to Jesus moment. It was like divinity revealed secret knowledge to me just when I needed it the most – knowledge that gave me hope and very well may have saved my life. This all went down not really that long ago in actual time – but from where I metaphorically stand now it seems like an eternity.

Stay strong my friends, you can rebuild yourself even in the face of being zeroed out.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

666 comments on “Men and Suicide

  1. I know why the caged bird sings, ah me,
    When his wing is bruised and his bosom sore,
    When he beats his bars and would be free;
    It is not a carol of joy or glee,
    But a prayer that he sends from his heart’s deep core,
    But a plea, that upward to Heaven he flings –
    I know why the caged bird sings

    — P. Dunbar

  2. @asd

    Seems so. A friend of mine jokes that all the single kids he knows are weird…

    I didn’t want brothers or sisters when growing up though, that meant less goodies for me haha

  3. “An allusion to caged canaries (birds) that miners would carry down into the mine tunnels with them. If dangerous gases such as carbon monoxide collected in the mine, the gases would kill the canary before killing the miners, thus providing a warning to exit the tunnels immediately.
    ‎English · ‎Noun”

  4. @ Oscar

    I was wondering where you were. Good to see you.

    You know, I never went through the rebellious period either. I used to ‘ hear ‘ about the age where teens start rebelling, but I’ve never noticed it to be very widespread among my peers.

    What newly described is what I’d witnessed when a kid did start to become dissatisfied with living arrangements.

    @ Markos

    Good to see you as well.

    Growing up, I loved playing football. I played from elementary school all the way through high school, and during the summers I played in the summer leagues.

    In my junior year of highschool, our team had such a successful year that we got a spot in the regional playoffs. Unfortunately our first opponent was the 5 time regional champion highschool team. Physically and skills wise we seemed to match up well, so we had a very good shot at defeating them.

    On game day in front of a capacity crowd, we were absolutely ready and the adrenaline was wafting through the air. I actually threw up twice because my stomach was doing back flips.

    By the end of the first quarter, the score was 21-14 in our opponent’s favor. A one score game with 3 quarters left to play. To me, we looked strong and ready to work to win. Our opponents while respected highly, were just a bunch of dudes on the opposite side of the ball.

    2nd quarter rolls around and our quarterback is getting sacked after each snap,mor he’s in the backfield running for his life. 3 downs and punt. At least our defense held the opponent to a field goa!. All we gotta do is adjust and execute.

    On the sidelines the coach was… Let’s just say he was very animated and passionate. Lol.

    But something was starting to become evident.

    When coach demanded to know why our offensive linemen appeared to be getting totally run over, a few of our biggest and strongest guys stared explaining that the defense was just too strong, and they hit really hard and they hold and they face mask and they chop block knees and, and and……

    Coach turned 3 different shades of red and sounds like his voice was being magically amplified –
    ” I don’t want to hear any of that shit!!!! I want you to stick to the fucking fundamentals and the goddamned basics and do your jobs!!!!! Remember basics?? Stay low and use leverage. Turn those motherfuckers and drop them on their backs!!!!”. But you could see on the linemen’s faces that they were tired and overwhelmed and defeated. Coaches words just bounced off their helmets.

    Our opponents successfully got inside our lineman’s heads by playing dirty in such a way that the refs just couldn’t see. And they just couldn’t see the point of making adjustments and continuing to fight to hold ground. So our running game became non existent and the qb continued getting planted in the turf, and as a wide receiver I saw only 2 wildly overthrown passes the whole game, because the qb had to try and throw while being pursued by an unopposed wolf pack.

    We never scored another point. We never got a first down. Most of our supporters in the stands were gone by the 3rd quarter. Shit was highly embarrassing.

    To say that our battered qb was livid is an understatement. In the locker room he almost came to blows with a lineman. He shouted at him ” you forgot how to play football!! You kept standing up straight and the defence shoved your big dumb ass back into my fuxking lap every play!!!! I wanna know exactly why you didn’t do your fuxking job!!??!! “.

    It got silent. Hell, I wanted to hear his answer.

    He didn’t even raise his head when he said ” after a while, it just wasn’t worth it. It was pointless “.

    As far as unicorny pronouncements go, my point is that one has to know what he’s doing and why, and execute. Defeatism is never an option. One thing is certain, if you set out to do anything in life and you can’t execute the basics consistently with confidence, you won’t ever really know what was actually possible.

    But it’s almost guaranteed that you’ll lose. Eventually.

    NAMALT? sure. I agree with that. Not at all the same thing as NAWALT.

  5. SJB

    I plagiarized this and changed the sex of the bird.

    “White bird
    In a golden cage
    On a winter’s day
    In the rain
    White bird
    In a golden cage
    The leaves blow
    Across the long, black road
    To the darkened skies
    In it’s rage
    But the white bird
    Just sits in his cage
    White bird must fly
    Or he will die
    White bird
    Dreams of the aspen trees
    With their dying leaves
    Turning gold
    But the white bird
    Just sits in his cage
    Growing old
    White bird must fly
    Or he will die
    White bird must fly
    Or he will die
    The sunsets come
    The sunsets go
    The clouds roll by
    And the earth turns old
    And the young bird’s eyes
    Do always glow
    he must fly
    he must fly
    he must fly
    White bird
    In a golden cage
    On a winter’s day
    In the rain
    White bird
    In a golden cage
    White bird must fly
    Or he will die
    White bird must fly
    Or he will die
    White bird must fly
    Or he will die”

  6. ” . . . there is almost nothing I really would like to buy . . .”

    There’s a word for that: “Wealth”

    Man is not known as the tool acquirer, he is known as the tool maker. Man acquires and makes things in order to affect his environment to his advantage. Tools are power.

    When there is nothing left to buy, it’s time to do something with what you have. The bumper sticker says, “he who dies with the most toys wins.” That is fundamentally wrong. The man who spends the most time playing with his toys wins. This is related tot he maxim: “Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it.”

    Leverage your stuff to grow your power, i.e. your ability to live life freely, as you choose.

    ” . . .being at home feels a bit trapping (and it is mostly due to the difficulty in getting laid while living like that . . .”

    There ya go. At 30 you are a mature man. It is time to escape those bonds and start being the one who does the trapping.

    “I’m sorry for you. You missed out on a lot of life experiences with siblings which help with learning social lessons. You have a lot of work to do.”

  7. @Boulderhead re: Whitebird

    One of the hottest psychedelic rock lead “guitarists” was a violinist. These days he’s playing Hot Club gypsy jazz.

  8. @Blax

    Was one coach more successful at instilling a Bantam mindset into his large players than the other?

    We will transport and place 32.000 lbs of material rod it flat, float the aggregate down, cut the bumps (much like body filler on a large scale) then when the consistency is right trowel it smooth until it becomes a shape set in stone. The process starts out hard and heavy,with a need for martial skill and accuracy, then as the material hardens the work intensifies untill it becomes stone. At this point if the product is not satisfactory it will need to be ground with diamonds to spec and or filled with stronger material.


  9. @ rugby

    Enjoyed the rugby clips. If I was 30 years younger, I might. Lol.

    It’d be cool if America had a real professional rugby league.

  10. @ boulderhead

    Our coach was a stickler for the fundamentals. This made everyone on the team better as a unit operating in unison. We were pretty bad ass for a time under his tutelage.

    It’s obvious that the other coach taught ” tricks ” more than actually being good at balling.

    Yet, our coach also emphasized making split second adjustments according to what’s going on in real time.

    I was bitching about all of the pass interference I was getting 30 yards down field. The corner was actually grabbing me by the throat at points. Coaches response was to stay focused and grab his fucking throat back.

    That day the other coach was better, only in the sense that our key guys didn’t adapt or stick to the fundamentals. They just became angry and frustrated and checked out.

    That lesson will stay with me until death.

  11. From your menopause post, Rollo, “survival-side evolution essentially gives up on women once they reach a point where they are no longer reproductively viable.”

    How does that square with the fact that women tend to outlive men?

    You refer to Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene in that post. Biologists generally have dissed The Selfish Gene as being too narrowly focused. Cooperative evolution wouldn’t exist if Dawkins’ theory were correct, since cooperative evolution aids survival/reproduction of the local gene pool (and perhaps even the gene pool of another species).


    “We were at AA Provincials (yes, AA) in Bantam. This player had always been dominant, even though he was small at the time. I loved watching him play and playing with him. But one play stands out above all the others. I will tell you why…

    This play was originally a mystery to me. But I’ve come to see how this play defined his mindset. And I believe that his mindset led him to where he is today: on top of the NHL.

    If you’re a coach, then you’re probably interested in this particular mindset because you want to know how to replicate it with your players. So let me tell you the story now.

    Back to the Bantam Provincials, in a semi-final game, he got the puck in the corner and then walked up the half wall. He then tried an ambitious move around a defender. He lost the puck. On the same shift, shortly after losing the puck, he recovered the puck in the corner and then walked up the half wall in the exact same way. The defender defended him in the exact same way. I could hear myself mouthing the words “don’t make the same mistake twice – dump it!”…BUT, lo and behold, this player tried the exact same move in the exact same scenario. This time he BEAT that defender. Then walked in and scored the game tying goal. We went on to win the game.


    How interesting is that? This player did what no coach would ever tell him to do – TRY IT AGAIN.

    He made a mistake, but he had such a strong belief in himself that he could make the play, that he did it again. It worked. And he scored. Note that he didn’t shy away from the situation by choosing a lower risk play.”

    This is what I mean by instilling a bantam mindset, a big guy that plays like a small guy.

    “any of various small, domestic fowls. a small but aggressive person. 3. like a bantam; small and aggressive. Word origin of ‘bantam'”

  13. HRT isn’t necessary for an old lady to want sex. All that is necessary is that she be put on an emotional roller coaster, just like a young broad. We see this in the field all the time. Lots of data points to support this.

  14. @ASD

    Pre menopausal estrogen cardio-protection.

    From NCBI

    “Premenopausal women have a lower risk and incidence of hypertension and cardiovascular disease (CVD) compared to age-matched men and this sex advantage for women gradually disappears after menopause, suggesting that sexual hormones play a cardioprotective role in women. However, randomized prospective primary or secondary prevention trials failed to confirm that hormone replacement therapy (HRT) affords cardioprotection. This review highlights the factors that may contribute to this divergent outcome and could reveal why young or premenopausal women are protected from CVD and yet postmenopausal women do not benefit from HRT.”

    The health care industry is tailored to female conviemce.

    Include the increased environmental dangers of younger men on the job, risk taking lifestyles.

  15. Local rugby teams are popular round here. My nephew just broke his tibia recently.

    Risk takers, heart breakers.

  16. @ EH

    Man, they look like they’re having the time of their lives.

    Btw, I broke my leg taking out the trash once. It’s not as swell a story as ” I broke my leg scoring the winning point “. My story is ” well, there was ice on the stairs… “.

  17. Even after accounting for risk-taking lifestyles, women tend to outlive men. You see a lot more widows than widowers.

    Also, cycle-induced hormonal variation cannot account for what we see in the field regarding women’s arousal (where they are emotionally “lit up”) in bars. Sure, cyclical variation in hormones can account for women’s interest in mating with a LTR beta. That doesn’t cover women’s desire to mate with alphas, tho.

  18. Reading this post reminds me of a man in my neighborhood who killed himeslf with a pistol while his wife and two daughters were at church. The story goes that they came home and found his body under a blanket inside the garage. He had covered himself lying on the garage floor and shot himself. Although I have not ruled out the possibility that she may have murdered him for the life insurance money because he was scheduled to be terminated from his job due to layoffs during the Great Recession, there is a darker side to his death. It could be possible that she shot him with with his gun while wearing gloves so only his finger prints would be on the weapon. Of course, she would have had to get him positioned on the garage floor first. All of this is very dark, however, as I stated, there is a darker side to his death and it is especially insidious. The direct cause of his death does not matter now. What matters is that his death was a very unnecessary tragedy.

    This guy was an attractive athletic male, tall, muscled, well groomed, and good looking. He was the kind of guy everyone assumes is living the good life. He was like that “all American” successful guy our culture has long promoted, good looks, pretty blond wife (bleached), “good job”, upper middle class, “great neighborhood”, etc, etc. They have two beautiful daughters (physically), both teenagers at the time, pretty white American cheerleader types. His wife was of the same social click. They owned (she still does) a “MacMansion” in our neighbor that was built a couple years before his death (she spent a lot of money remodeling and redecorating it immediately after his death and said “it is what he would have always wanted”).

    Here is the insidious dark side. She (now in her late forties, early fifties) still refers to him as “her” Prince Charming. She has a cheap ass gaudy asstard glittery Cinderella stage coach effigy perched on the edge of her master bath tub. The house is decorated with lots of crappy faux very “traditional” looking accents and what not. The base of the gold painted stage coach crap is inscribed with the words “ “If you keep on believing, the dreams that you wish will all come true” – Cinderella”.

    Of course Cinderella consideres herself worthy of a royal lifestyle. No! Entitled to a royal lifestyle! In fact her self assigned entitlement is the core of her existence, regardless of her feigned artfully orchestrated fakery of empathy and ostensible high moral mindedness (she’s just another pedistialized puritanical bleeding cunt). HER Prince Charming is the tool she expects to provide her with all the comforts and indulgences she whimsicaly, No! MAGICALLY imagines. It is all SUPPOSED to happen with the words “bibbidy bobboddy boo” spoken by Cinderella’s fat fuck blubbery obese fairy godmother war pig (Walt Disney drew it, not me, to simulate the real fat asstard blubbery slob fucks, so as to seem plausible to the mass of imbeciles). So while blubber pig is babbling and Cinderella is magically dreaming and wishing, Prince Charming is working himself insane to try to keep the shit coming down the pipe. And of course to maintain her status of royalty Cinderella must acquire more and more expensive royal comforts and indulgences than her ugly stepsisters, lest she experience the dread of seeing herself as being too close to being equal with them. And so, on and on it goes as she compulsively consumes more and more in this “magical” upward spiral into ever higher strata in the magic kingdom. But OH NO! Reality is a bitch and a bigger bitch than even “Barbie” (who has “everything”…a term which more than implies infinity). There is a limit to this insane attempt to make magic real and the imaginary upward spiral is in reality a dowanward spiral. Resources are limited. The only thing unlimited is Cinderella’s insatiable appetite for all things royal. Just like “Barbie”, she is insatiable, unsustainable and eventually the debt has to be paid, the grim reaper comes to call. All debts must be paid by someone. But wait! There’s is hope for poor little “Rellay” Prince Charming is there to once again “save the day” and keep “Rellay” in royalty. This time it’s in death. He sacrifices himself. After all doesn’t Rollo,say it is “innate”, and established by the universe? Prince Charming is conscripted by his own chromosomes as Rollo more than implies. If not, his chromosomes are “defective” or aren’t “normal”; he wasn’t innately constituted as males are “supposed to be”.

    The poor bastard was dead before he died. He was murdered before he was killed or killed himself. The man was murdered long before he stopped breathing and “Prince Charming” was put in his body before he ever had a chance to live.

    Do you want to live or not?!

    Your life, or as a tool in someone’s else’s?

  19. EhIntellect
    Pre menopausal estrogen cardio-protection.

    No evidence to support that. More likely it’s the iron, both circulating and as ferritin. Ironic (heh) to contemplate that the 18th century custom of bleeding men actually had some validity.

    Every man and every post-menopausal woman should have iron and ferritin checked, corrective measures taken as appropriate.

  20. kfg
    Over the past century, men have taken much of the risk out of women’s lives.

    Yes, in a multitude of ways.

    Childbirth in particular. Better medical hygene (eventually) and medical baby-forceps both in the 19th century reduced deaths in childbirth for women. Sulfa drugs and then antibiotics in the 20th century reduced the risks of giving birth even more.

    Historically women had shorter lives than men, it is not uncommon to find geneologies where men in the 19th century and earlier had 2 or even 3 wives in succession due to childbirth in particular or other premature demise.

    Given the nmber of men who die of the side effects of hypertension, it is arguable that modern western women kill their husbands on the installment plan – one nagging day at a time.

    Despair is a real killer. I just finished reading a book about the only successful multi-prisoner escape from a WW II Japanese prison camp. Men died in Cabanantuan and other POW camps in the Phillippines from despair – just laid down and didn’t get back up. Their mental dialog spiraled down and nobody could bring them back up.

  21. boulderhead
    Thank you for that timelapse…

    “The poor bastard was dead before he died. He was murdered before he was killed or killed himself. The man was murdered long before he stopped breathing and “Prince Charming” was put in his body before he ever had a chance to live.

    Do you want to live or not?!

    Your life, or as a tool in someone’s else’s?”

    Your own life your own ownership though’s words and deeds.

  22. @NBTM

    I would rule out murder, excepting character assassination maybe.

    “they came home and found his body under a blanket inside the garage. He had covered himself lying on the garage floor”

    A very considerate man in my estimation, easy clean up on the concrete floor and under a blanket to hide the gory details from his loved ones that he had already”failed” in his minds eye.

  23. “Given the nmber of men who die of the side effects of hypertension, it is arguable that modern western women kill their husbands on the installment plan – one nagging day at a time.”

    Hence the joke:

    Q: Why do men die before their wives?
    A: Because they want to.

  24. He’s o.k.

    He could use some RP. Not ready though.

    Good with the women, AMOG….but he’s completely whipped by my sister. Serves her, not himself, limits his desires, replaces them with hers. He wants to move to Idaho, but she convinced him to stay, gives him shelter, food, cuz he’s low on cash, low on confidence.

    Not with women, personally. KFG wrote way back about this phenomenon. A generation of guys, selectively Alpha. Incongruent. See women as fuck toys, doting to other women. It’s as if they believe the FI conventions, but only for certain women. NAWALT ideas.

    Hadn’t talked in a long while. His step dad died in Spring, nephew liked him and was upset, hatred for his once drug addled Dad. I was the only guy around so took him out to celebrate his stepdad’s life. Back at his place he had an emotional dump. Years of pent up hatred, anger. You know, the rage filled crying, smashing shit, bloody knuckles. He wound himself up wanting to fight me. I told him, “Well, o.k. if it’ll help you move on.”

    It didn’t last as I was sober, he wasn’t. I put him to bed after.

    A week later My sister sent me pics of bloody concrete, the stuff he smashed and won’t talk to me. Meh. No loss. AWALT.

    I was glad I was there for him. We all need a mentor. I should touch base.

  25. “No evidence to support that.”

    I’m not debating the reams of correlational evidence contrary. I don’t care if it’s true or not, just to be clear. Feel free arguing both sides. Again IDC.

    Flat dismissals with facile solutions is flat earthy.

  26. EhIntellect
    When Thomas died…
    The person who told me showed me these video’s… Was calm and happy alway’s cared and was grateful to see Thomas being Happy… Had many discussions about music and creation…
    Punched a concrete wall after i found out… The wall won… Anger was still present… I was weak and powerless again…
    I forget the dates to stop myself from falling back into that darkness that’s waiting… Knowing it’s ability’s… Thomas was the one person from the 5 last year who i grew up with for the most part of my life… We both had issue’s with are mother’s and we both spoke about everything that i observed as the red pill. But we didn’t call it that… I took him to Utah with me since he enjoyed exploring the country and world. Messed up an getting him back home and it became a Joke at the skate park that would eventually get me called “Billlllyyyyy”…. Billy is a co friend of mine who grew up with Thomas as well…. Going out to sort this out being behind a computer machine isn’t as effective as marching into the sunlight…

  27. Of course Blax is absolutely right the key is not to fear women. But that is the end.

    First I think the lack of purpose is an important topic which should be raised more often in todays debates. In our modern view the task of finding purpose in life is all up to the individual. And that’s kind of inevitable since it’s just the other side of the coin “freedom”. But still that task may be too hard for the individual.

    But as reason for the suicides that explanation falls somewhat short in my opinion. Rebuilding yourself is actually a good purpose and nothing to fear. I think what’s really shattering these men (and I was at that point 15 years ago too) is something Jordan Peterson describes at several points in his videos: What really brings people down is the encounter with “evil”, which he defines as malicious intend directed towards you. It’s one thing if you suffer because someone is reckless in pursuing his goals, but a very different thing when your suffering is not just means to an end but the goal itself.

    Now from the perspective of men (especially without RP understanding) “advanced betaisation” is just that. It doesn’t make sense for the women to ruin that relationship. She will not do any better now at 37, not to mention the children. But her instincts still tell her to test that man until he breaks. And then punish him even more for breaking. That’s evil. Women are actually evil.

    And now back to Brax: The evil is there, looking away doesn’t make it go away. You can run an hide or you can learn how to fight it. But then you have to lose the fear and game it instead.

  28. EhIntellect

    “No evidence to support that.”

    I’m not debating the reams of correlational evidence contrary.

    Ok. If you want more fun, search on “Replication crisis” and “medical”. In a few more years the medicos will finally be force to admit that cholesterol may be a symptom but it’s not a cause of CHD. In the mean time more men will develop diabetes (which associates with heart disease), many of them by following the Official Heart Healthy Diet consisting largely of lots and lots of simple carbs.

    I don’t care if it’s true or not, just to be clear. Feel free arguing both sides. Again IDC.

    If YDC then why bring it up?

    Flat dismissals with facile solutions is flat earthy.

    I flatly dismiss the flat earth because the planet is a spheroid. Is this facile?

    In the mean time, get your iron checked. Bacteria need iron to reproduce. So do cancern cells. Don’t hand those things free fuel.

  29. lh
    What really brings people down is the encounter with “evil”, which he defines as malicious intend directed towards you.

    That’s confusing cruelty with evil. Casual meanness is easy, cruelty requires more work and evil is something else again. I’ve known multiple women with a mean streak, a few that were capable of cruelty and maybe one or two borderline evil cases.

    Once you’re out of grade school, letting a mean girl get under your skin is weak. But a lot of men now are weak in various ways.

    Don’t forget, men are the true romantics. Suicide as a grand, “you’ll miss me when I’m gone”, “Look what you made me do!”, “Behold my noble and mighty self sacrifice”, romantic gesture is … stupid. It’s a stupid thing to do for many reasons. Because the girls aren’t really going to be affected by it – War Brides, remember.

  30. “In the mean time, get your iron checked. Bacteria need iron to reproduce. So do cancern cells. Don’t hand those things free fuel.”

    Wow this gives new meaning to the term “Geritol crew”.

  31. “Hawthorne employed dozens of relatives at the business he started in 1989, and the source said he left a note in which he apologized to his family.”

    Thinking of others.

    What stopped me from eating the shotgun was, what kind of example am I setting for my boys?

  32. “He was alone, surrounded by family.”

    “Hawthorne was slapped with a proposed class-action suit alleging he cheated as many as 100-plus workers at the Golden Crust plant out of overtime pay”

    maybe it was his family brought the lawsuit lol

  33. kfg
    Hence the joke:

    A few years back I went digging for the original Framingham heart study and found parts of it. It was a real wide net to try to figure out what factors were driving the increase in heart attacks, back when a lot of men were dying of those in their 40’s. It was big data for the 1950’s.

    There was a table of factors that were teased out of the data, not just obvious life habits such as smoking, exercising, but other issues. High cholesterol was one of them. The table looked something like this:


    High Chol. 0.45

    There was another factor in the table that caught my eye:


    and the increase risk of a heart attack was virtually the same as cholesteroal to 2 decimal places, (picking number ouf of the air) “4.51” vs. “4.49”. Yet nobody ever bothered to try to explain that in the text as far as I could tell, and it’s forgotten in any discussion of heart disease today.

    Because they want to

    “Better a tent on a roof than to share a good house with a contentious woman”.

    Frame. It’s what’s for breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight snack. Every day.

  34. @ Blaxumus

    Speaking of high school sports, I told this story in Field Reports back this last January:

    We had an epic varsity wrestling meet against our prime rival back in 1979. Two premier all boys Catholic schools. The Jesuits against the Franciscans. It went back and forth and we lost by a few points. Our team members grumbled in the locker room afterwards about how we got screwed by the referee’s on a few points and should have won. Our coach taught us and epic lesson on that. I believe he swore a bit as he spit out that: “The referees didn’t screw anyone. You guys didn’t wrestle well enough to overcome those few points decided by the referees. Next time, be so good that those points out of your hands don’t matter.”

    Randomly, I was clinking on the link on Rollo’s sidebar:

    (I don’t think the blogger names who he attributes the following to.)

    99 Words For Living a Successful Life:

    1) Honor your teachers.

    2) Say “I am enough” out loud daily.

    3) Active listening is a skill.

    4) Plug into what matters most.

    5) Rule #1- Know who you are.

    6) Rule #2- Know who has the burden of proof.

    7) Rule #3- Never argue.

    8) Rule #4- Know and document your remedies.

    9) Make directionally-accurate changes.

    10) Manage expectations.

    11) “No” is a complete sentence.

    12) Live where growth occurs (the edge).

    13) Life starts with light, water, and magnetism.

    14) Your opinion of you is what matters and you need you more than you need them.

    15) You have what you need.

    16) *What are your expectations?

    17) *Do I really need to know this?

    18) Know your audience.

    19) Sleep is a weapon.

    20) Death is certain, so live while the option is available.

  35. Great post, Rollo. Much appreciated.

    From your Kill the Beta:

    “You can pore through all of the advice and sift out the wisdom from this blog and the community at large, but none of it will amount to anything for you if you wont act. I can’t begin to recall all of the times I’ve counseled young guys, giving them all manner of advice and encouraging them to put it into practice, only to have them constantly bemoan that they can’t find the motivation.

    More often than not it takes some traumatic experience or they have to be reduced to having nothing left to lose before they’ll really have the fire lit under their asses to become more than they are.

    I don’t consider myself a motivational speaker, but at some point you have to cross the abyss and change your mind about yourself.”

    You changed my mind.
    I’m still here.
    Thank you.

  36. @ Rand HOoks:

    When I open myself up to dating, commitment and possibly marriage I am opening the door to be zeroed out? Is that a harsher way of saying life is always changing and if I’m in a relationship this is something I need to be prepared for?

    Yes, that’s exactly what we’re saying.

    With respect to women, especially, you must be prepared for her to walk out of your life at any time. You must be prepared to lose half of what you own, and that woman. You must be prepared to start over any time, all the time.

  37. “Men’s disposability is also nothing new to the manosphere.” – A man’s “disposability” is directly attributable to how disposable he allows himself to be. If he allows his disposability to be defined and determined by anything other than himself, then what can he expect, what will the universe deal such a man, what fate does he guarantee himself, what fate does he deserve?

    “Loss of Utility” WTF?? – “Utility”…Utility to whom? “I cannot determine my own destiny. Oh no, I’m no longer “useful”, so I’m just going to kill myself. I know nothing but slavery, it is my rightful place in the universe. But now I have no utility so I’m going to sacrifice myself on the altar of martyrdom and Stockholm syndrome (a primarily feminine phenomena). I am the slaves slave. The feminine and our gynocentric culture has no more use for me and it defined who I am and what value I attribute to myself, so now I am worthless to myself.”

    I DEFINE MY OWN UTILITY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! And I suggest that you do the same.

    “As the saying goes, most men live lives of quiet desperation, but in the modern era these men are demonstrably useless.” – To whom? Who defines their “usefulness” or lack thereof. What slave master is culling these men? Which men are willing participants of this perverse definition of their own identity assignment? Are you one?

    “Once a man is stripped of his usefulness, once it’s made clear that all of the equity he believed would support his relationship has been erased after so long, men will still resort to practical, deductive solutions. That solution may be suicide when weighed with the prospect of having to rebuild himself in a new context;” (such a man never built himself to begin with) “and even if he did would he just be building a new ‘him’ based on his old belief set?” – What kind of man allows another, be it a woman or other men or the “culture”, to “strip him of his usefulness”? Tell me what kind of “man” is this? What kind of “man” resorts to this reassignment of blame to rationalize his own lack of gumption? What kind of “man” allows women to run roughshod over him in this way? Why do some men such a Hugh Hefner capitalize on women while others find it impossible? Was Hefner less of a “real man” because he used women in ways others couldn’t find possible? Was he “evil”? were all men in history who acquired many concubines “evil”? Who makes these fucking rules?

    What kind of man considers himself to be “equal” to a woman or is afraid of someone saying all men are “equal” to all women? Only an insane idiot would fall for that crap! You see, the truth is, we are not “equal”, never have been and never will be. All men ARE NOT equal. Men and women ARE NOT “equal”. IT IS A LIE! The western world has futilely masturbated its psyche for a few hundred years on this lie and all that has cum of it, is incessant bickering, battling and fighting over who controls the definition of it…..who is more “equal” than who. It’s all bullshit.

    “When my brother in-law committed suicide, it seemed to me at the time to be the most logical end he would come to.” – And I think you are still throwing up the cool aid. I don’t care how many tears were shed, how confused anyone was or still is, how many times or how much someone masturbated themselves sexually or psychologically. No number of tears, no amount of rationalizing, no amount of sexual or mental masturbation will change the universal fact that if you do not accept responsibility for yourself, no one will, because you are the one and only who can.

  38. I was for a moment tempted to think this suicide thing is mostly a western (white) male thing but the more I read the more I realize it is just a man thing and not a white male thing.

  39. A couple of years back I was on a date with this very attractive Ukrainian women that I met online. She told me that her former husband, a doctor, shot himself in the chest and killed himself. She told me this in the context of her struggles and one of the reasons why she moved out west from the east coast. She was trying to elicit sympathy from me. She even showed me pictures of the pearl handled, nickel plated 357 and asked me if I was on the market for a gun. At that point all I could think of was, HOLY FUCK! That poor bastard. I immediately thought of Rollo, the red pill and female solipism. Needless to say, thanks to Rollo, I was not swayed.

    I went out with her one more time to try to get in her pants. To no avail. It became apparent that she was looking for provisioning. So I moved on. Yes, online dating is nowheresville. Hah

    Thank you Rollo for such a heart felt essay. Your writing is foundation for my continued RP awareness.

  40. Speaking of Ukrainians….

    O/T fluff – was in the supermarket last night at midnight ( closing time, zfg ) cornering the market on Bacon.

    In checkout ahead of me was a 6 foot tall blonde, in flats. She was young, and on her phone ( surprise ) and she was speaking what sounded Russian, having worked with Russian strippers in the past, but I was clueless as to what her conversation was about.

    She was all alone.

    There are solo many chicks floating around here at all hours alone.

  41. She even showed me pictures of the pearl handled, nickel plated 357 and asked me if I was on the market for a gun.

    “Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol.”

    Attributed to George S. Patton

  42. “Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol.”

    Attributed to George S. Patton

    I was thinking wtf? about that too. Also a doctor shooting himself in the chest to commit suicide? That’s just stupid or ignorant of him. Any doctor knows the brain-stem is the target. (But don’t tell anyone about that.)

    That doctor was what you call a drama queen. The fact that she was attracted to him at one time would put her abilities of judgment in question. There are reasons to vett.

  43. “In checkout ahead of me was a 6 foot tall blonde, in flats. She was young, and on her phone ( surprise ) and she was speaking what sounded Russian, having worked with Russian strippers in the past, but I was clueless as to what her conversation was about.

    She was all alone.”

    Max insta dating + closing a blonde Russian girl that speaks zero English:

  44. Oh, and a .357 is a revolver, not a pistol. I didn’t know it was possible, or even fathomable to put a pearl dress up on a .357. What would be the purpose other than sub-communicating something. Handguns are functional and should be kept that way. They are not a brandishing thing.

    I’d run in the other direction from that Ukrainian.

  45. “The doctor was what you call a “Sales Pitch.””

    And he won that sales pitch (heh, we won over the Ukrainian). Up until the point where he couldn’t take it any more.

    Mental point of order and Frame fail in play. What’s the point of winning if you you can’t take life any more?

  46. “And he won that sales pitch . . .”

    I’ll believe he existed outside of the pitch when I see the marriage and death certificates. If they’re witnessed by a Nigerian prince, I’m out. A remarkable number of Ukrainicorns have a similar pitch.

    “Man, this guy just doesn’t stop, does he:”

    Beat me to it.

  47. “If they’re witnessed by a Nigerian prince, I’m out. A remarkable number of Ukrainicorns have a similar pitch.

    Beat me to it also. I took the Ukrainian’s pitch as ridiculous, whereas I first attributed the pitch you spoke of to her former alleged husband physician that committed suicide by shooting himself in the chest (wtf, physician males cannot possibly be that stupid.) with a silly .357 with pearl handlebars.

    She’s sub-communicating she’s a witch with her pitch.

  48. Nickel plating? That’s really glossing. A stainless steel S&W 686 is as adequate as it gets. The leaf spring trigger is exquisite and a really amazing piece of work.

  49. @hh
    Yeah. That too. We have been forged in the ancient fires of honor and sacrifice, but are living in times where no one gives a fuck about those. I guess we just have to evolve some more.

    A shady woman targeting you for provision may mention a non existent doctor in her past impress on you where she expects you would be starting from (in terms of her expectations)

  50. @cheupez, kfg, SJF

    Yes, your comments have given me doubt as to the believability of her story. I honestly didn’t give it to much thought at the time past a ‘personal tragedy’.

    She did though, show me images on her phone of the gun as though she was getting ready to put in on craigslist. or something.

    Like I said, I was trying to get laid not looking for a relationship. So I quite when I recognized the dead end.

    When you think about, even a blue pilled dude might see fit to run.

    Hah, I just checked. I still have Halyna’s (Ukrainian for gold-digger) number. It was almost 3 years ago. No worries. Not even my morbid curiosity doesn’t want to find out the real story.

    However, in my defense I just google doctors and suicide and I found this article. Over 400 a year kill themselves. Which puts it in the realm of possibility.


  51. Key points 70’sAntiHero:

    There is no such DHV as pearl handles on a .357.

    The Ukrainicorn was trying to DHV her bad ass physician who offed himself. Which may have been a lie.

    No smart physician would shoot himself in the chest rather than suck the barrel and know a bit about anatomy and physiology.

    It’s really just semantics though.

    It is not a thing. Put in Red Pill Frame, there is no there, there. Discrimination is not that hard.

    It is called vapid. You just thought it was stimulating or challenging. It was not. A pink whole that was fleeting. No worse off for passing on it. Hence she was a non sequitur.

  52. Well I’ll be damned. Rollo’s interview/podcast/ youtube with Donovan Sharpe was beyond good in terms of relationship game. After a couple, three, four years wading through the manosphere as a MRP guy, you couldn’t say shit better. I referenced it earlier and he had it in his twitter feed.

    Excellent artistry Rollo. Thanks. You delivered a peak experience with ease.

    I give praise to my Mentors.

  53. Blaximus, I agree to agree with you, sort of.

    Yet even great coaches can misread a situation, exactly as you describe, just like many think NAMALT and can skill/power/mindset through. Thing is, sometimes a team or an individual is simply outmatched.

    Many, many, many men cannot hold Frame in a marriage. And for those who can, they must vet meticulously, because it’s real hard to Frame a BPD woman.

    I think it’s most important to recognize if one is able to pull it off. Even with all the training and RP in the world, some men will not be able to follow through.

    @ Blaximus @boulderhead

    I’m a wrestling coach. Soccer too. Captained both in college as well, so I know the world of which you speak.

  54. “I think it’s most important to recognize if one is able to pull it off.”

    MRP is the RP stepchild. Often labeled PP, or oneitis-y, unicorny. In this thread even.

    It’s a big tent and single guys keep me honest.

    Oh yeah! Wrestling practice starts tonight. The best time of the year. The slapping mat sounds, whistles, the yelling, stink, tissues up the nose…awesome.

  55. “I think it’s most important to recognize if one is able to pull it off. Even with all the training and RP in the world, some men will not be able to follow through.”

    As a coach you are in a position to help at a critical stage of developement.

    I can still hear old gary telling me I was a helpless sonofabich,pissed me off enough to show him wrong. One year later I was his top wrench. Mindset is key,how to get them there differs. Women are still the best teachers of red pill, if one can survive the lesson.

  56. “And for those who can, they must vet meticulously, because it’s real hard to Frame a BPD woman.”

    Hi Markos.

    Only a minutia of women are BPD. Yeah vetting is helpful, but most guys (me included) cacked up their marriages on their own. IMO “it’s not them, it’s you” is a good starting point. It obviates victim feelings and reinforces freewill.

    I stopped fighting my way to a better life and life stopped fighting me.

  57. Markos Beers
    Many, many, many men cannot hold Frame in a marriage.

    Many men cannot hold Frame on the job, either, yet there’s an entire industry that exists to train men to do just that. It used to be called “management training” among other things. We can argue about how effective or not that world of training is but it exists for a reason.

    Holding Frame is an act of will at first, when practiced diligently and with even moderate success it can in time become an unconscious skill.

    And for those who can, they must vet meticulously, because it’s real hard to Frame a BPD woman.

    Screening, serious screening, matters a lot. Genuine BPD’s can be detected various ways, and it is hugely important to see what she’ll do under various stress situations before fully committing.

  58. @ Markos

    Lol, we are in 99% full agreement.

    In my estimation, ‘ frame ‘ is like riding a bike ( catch all metaphor..) And one should never struggle to hold it. The problem is that in order to navigate society/culture, we have to compromise sometimes in various circumstances. Our jobs are a perfect example.

    That mindset of compromise can not be transferred to relationships with women though.

    You’re absolutely right that a majority of men struggle maintaining frame, but I submit that a vast majority of males spend their formative years never develop a strong frame in the first place, so when you ‘ adopt’ a frame later in life while in any manner of relationship with a woman, it will ultimately be a bit of a struggle to maintain.

    Because it’s not real and you haven’t bought into it.

    Frame is like a core muscle group. Understand it and exercise it consistently and it strengthens.

  59. westray
    December 2, 2017 at 1:00 pm

    ““Being a husband is not an alpha move, no matter how hard you try.”
    (Read the whole thing, above!!!)
    …The whole thing kicks off with the man kneeling in order to propose. Mistake.””

    Excellent, insightful. I wish your comment was on Reddit, so I could give you all my gold.

  60. So, you’ve bought into ‘ you kneel before the woman..’ Thing.

    And… Marriage cannot exist without a man initially subjugating himself before the feminine. Sooo…. You base your ‘ not alpha ‘ conclusion based upon this?

    Cunning and pervasive for sure.

  61. Oh, and a subtle’ lol ‘ at trying to be a husband. ‘ husband ‘ is a title ( an arbitrary one at that ). Your mission in life is to put all of your efforts into being a man .. If you’re going to ” try hard ” at anything in this life, being a man is worthy of that effort.

  62. @mersonia Blaximus

    (note that i do NOT think that any man should get married in today’s system unless he is specifically having a kid with her… and then, only for the reasons i listed in that analysis for YaReally on pLTRs…)

    That’s actually a really good question. How long can anyone really keep it up. How long can game which girls will grow accustomed too stand and if you are in a marriage is it upheld by desire or just the fact that the female has invested(lol idk if thats good word (I think become accustomed to being part of your life is better) so much in it that she just decides its better to stay.

    I’d really like someone with game and that is married to awnser that… queue ( blax sentybear.. shit even SJF (Not you ASD don’t respond plz)(And i’m not trolling at all I’d like a deadpan serious answer)

    how long can you keep your job?…lol

    if you keep f*king up at it, not very long… if you keep adding value to the company, as long as you want… barring any ‘reorganization’ situs… and even then…

    Blaximus covered the idea in his pov on work… MPoO = you…

    Re: working.

    I’ve been at my current job going on 22 years in 2018. Every one of those 22 years, I’ve understood that my employment could be terminated at any time. Why? Basically because my name wasn’t on the sign above the entrance.

    And I realized this long before coming to work for my current employer.

    If I got let go, at 56, tomorrow, would I be bummed or saddened? Yes to the extent that I’m only 2 years into my 5 year plan of maximizing my retirement funding. But after 30 years in this field, I’m good to go because I realized that dependency on ” others ” , even in employment is a dangerous thing. I’ve been ready for long-term job loss for over 15 years. Reaction to the nature of this beast.

    Nobody owes a man a damn thing. Truth.

    It still sucks though, when that’s demonstrated.

    Hustle, hustle, hustle. Stagnation is to be avoided.

    A few months ago a guy I know offered me a thousand bucks cash to help him paint a car, as he’d fallen behind in work and was desperately trying to catch up. Honesty, I would have done it for half that amount because it only entailed about 3 hours work on my part, but cash is king.

    A couple of days later, he had the same offer. The following week yet again, same offer.

    A similar situation came up with another guy I know that had a large contract to restore and refinish the massive oak floors in a historic mansion in our city. He just couldn’t get the necessary manpower to complete the job on schedule, so I assisted him for the better part of a week in my spare time. 2,500 bucks in cash for less than 10 hours of work. And the floors look absolutely amazing.

    A landscaper has asked me if I wanted to earn some cash, but I just don’t have the time.

    Stagnation. Is. Bad.

    Our tendency to place all of our eggs in one basket, a basket that we don’t even own, is going to be a risky proposition.

    There’s more than one Red Pill.

    take this idea ^^^ and apply it to marriage/ltr…

    i’m to the point now where this^^^ is my default attitude in my marriage… and so far, it’s been working out…

    IF it goes bad (and i get ‘zeroed out’… which will suck, but shit happens…), i’ll just have to adjust/start over/make the best of the situ by moving in with a couple of college age hotty roommates…lol… you know, bc i can’t afford to pay for my own place AND make child support payments…lol… but not really kidding… and bc of that POSSIBILTY, i NEED to keep my game at a sufficiently high level to make that move easy…

    now, give me odds on whether or not it WILL go bad…lol… but also not kidding…

    i think one of the important points on marriage/ltr that gets lost in the ‘married game is harder’ mantra is that when you are doing snl/pua, you can just run the same stories/routines on every girl…bc a DHV story is a DHV story… buuut, you can’t do that with the same girl over time… sooo, you need to understand the underlying process of why DHV is important and adapt…

    also, (and this is where most men lose the contest for frame in marriage/ltr) you are dealing with two separate and distinct girls at the same time… all the time… they are trapped in the same body… just like ‘multiple personalities’… (note – this was Culum’s issue with ‘epiphany chick’ (a long time ago..)… he really liked just hanging out with her, so didn’t/couldn’t make the transition to AF…)

    girl 1 is the girl with the ‘personality’ (forebrain)… her pov is ‘i just want my best friend’… any ‘interaction’ with this girl puts you into BB… bc that’s this girl’s ONLY interaction pattern… she doesn’t even do ‘sexual desire’… it’s completely outside her algo catalog… AND that BB pattern is also where girl 2 is trying to put you as HER default option… and she sees you as BB bc of all the interaction with girl 1 all the time… bc you ‘believe her words and not her actions’…

    girl 2 is the girl with the hindbrain/hamster trying to repro her genetics… to get to desire sex you need to ping her AF algo… sooo, just like SNL game, you need to ramp up from where she is when you start…

    and in the case of ltr/marriage = a (usually) slightly below zero BB desire level… that’s why it’s harder than basic SNL game… you have to overcome that ‘deficit’ that doesn’t exist when you cold approach the hotty on the street/club…

    unless of course you have your MPoO wired and are always in AF interaction (like Blaximus…)… most men don’t/can’t do that… bc the FI is cunning and pervasive… and over time, shit happens…

    (ps – i would still like you to write up that ‘special snowflake duality’ idea… that’s some great insight and i am interested in hearing your pov on it…)

    good luck!

  63. @Blaximus

    And why would your wife ” nag ” you?

    bc you keep failing those shit tests like a BOSS…lol… nagging is a symptom not a cause…

    good luck!

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