Men and Suicide

Before I launch in here today I need to confess that this post has been in my drafts folder for a while now. As most of my readers are aware I’ve known two personal friends who’ve taken their own lives as a result of having their Blue Pill conditioned beliefs set them on a path to self destruction. One of the more important parts of my charter when I started writing was to reach the men who were at their wits’ end in figuring out how to deal with their personal, romantic or married lives that had until then been directed by what their Blue Pill acculturation and their understanding of intersexual dynamics were molded to be. Since I started and stopped and then restarted this topic again there have been a few recent developments in my perspective on men taking their own lives as a result of the Blue Pill’s influence on them.

All of this really began about two months ago while I was engaging in a debate (or what passes for debate) on Twitter with a very unsympathetic woman who thought she’d set me straight about why it is men choose to take their own lives at a far greater rate than women. As it stands today, men are statistically between 4 and 5 times more likely than women to kill themselves. For most Red Pill aware men this is a fairly well known stat and one that gets quoted often enough when women trot out their own stats about abuse or whatever issue they think it is that MRA are ‘confused’ about. They usually get owned when this sort of back and forth goes down, but I’m always drawn to the comparative issues women think are equitable to that of men losing their lives.

Men’s disposability is also nothing new to the manosphere. Sperm is cheap, eggs are scarce and men are expected to sacrifice their lives for the security and betterment of women even in the most patriarchal of prior social orders. It’s always interesting to me that issues of mandatory male conscription into the military (potential death) and the unignorable high male suicide rates are something women still won’t accept as being a pretty raw deal for men. Women’s innate solipsism will still compel women to find some “yeah, but;…” rationalization for men’s disposability. Whenever I bring something like this up the reflexive presumption is that I’m bemoaning men’s victim status for being disposable. However, it’s impossible to discuss male disposability without such a connotation. My issues isn’t one of seeking some equitable disposability for women, but rather it’s drawing attention to the way women react and rationalize away their own part in that disposability.

True Powerlessness

I covered a lot of this in Chivalry vs. Altruism, so I won’t belabor that here, but I will point out the inherent power imbalance in this disposability. I’ve stated in the past that true power is not the control we can exert over the lives of others, but rather the extent to which we have control over the direction of our own lives. When we discuss issues of power between men and women the real, ultimate, loss of that control is in the context of our deaths.

There is no greater powerlessness for men than a lack of control over our own disposability.

Again, this isn’t some cry of victimhood for men – I happen to believe there’s an evolved component in the male psychological firmware that actually predisposes us to sacrificing ourselves in lieu of the security of our women and children. That’s not so much altruism as it is an inborn subroutine for protecting women that triggers in life-threatening situations. When a mass shooter opens fire indiscriminately at a crowd of people it is the men, not the women, who instinctively put their bodies between that gun and women or children, even the one’s they don’t personally know.

In the bigger scope of things, men will always be more disposable than women, and on some level of consciousness women’s hindbrains instinctively understand this. As such, women’s conscious process must find ways to reconcile this understanding in order for them to move on from men’s sacrifices. Sometimes this can manifest in the War Brides phenomenon, but I would argue that in today’s social learning environment of mass media, instant gratification of women’ solipsism and feminine-primary social order, this reconciliation takes some even uglier turns. Today, women have become very efficient in consoling each other’s solipsistic rationalizing of men’s sacrifices. In this environment of default female victimization and presumed oppression even men’s ultimate sacrifice, men’s ultimate powerlessness in their own deaths, cannot ever be consciously or unconsciously acknowledged in a state of fempowerment.

While I had this debate it occurred to me that even men’s suicides could never be attributed to anything less than their own ‘male egos’ by women, thus making them victims of their conditioning into “toxic” masculinity. Essentially, women were arguing that men would put a noose around their necks because they were socially conditioned to do so. Their suicide rate was attributable to their self-pity and inability to be ‘real men’ as some nebulous toxic masculinity had predefined for them. I thought this was kind of ironic when you compare this reasoning to the narrative shift away from ‘toxic’ masculinity to masculinity itself is toxic. This is really a stupid argument when you consider that it’s just another social convention used to absolve women of the guilt associated with men’s sacrifices. Men are hardwired for self sacrifice, but likewise women had need to evolved psychological adaptations to help them clear the red from their life’s ledger in this respect.

So, in the end, it helps if women can fall back on social conventions that put the associated guilt of men’s sacrifices back on the men themselves. Chivalry and traditional masculinity are fine when they serve the Feminine Imperative, but if a man actually gets killed or kills himself as part of that, well, that’s on him then. And this is what I was beginning with in this debate; there will always be a desire for absolution of women’s guilt or complicity in the deaths of men. I should also add that in terms of war and men being drafted women regularly default to the same asinine presumption that if women were running the world that there would be no wars. I won’t dignify that with any deeper analysis than to say that this too is one more (feeble) way of looking for absolution in the sacrifices men make to facilitate women’s reality.

Suicide Solution

That still left the question, why do men take their own lives in such alarmingly high numbers compared to women? I had to do a bit of research on this, but the demographics for male suicide today show some patterns. 7 in 10 suicides are men (majority white) between the ages of 45 and 65. As expected from gynocentric media, the primary reason always cited is men’s so called stubbornness in seeking out psychiatric help before they attempt suicide – again absolving women’s influence of any complicity – but ignoring what would motivate men, and this demographic in particular, to suicide. Again, there’s no attempt to understand the underlying reasons for male suicide, only a stereotypically easy ‘male-stupid’ answer to absolve women’s complicity in it.

There’s a lot to consider and be sensitive of when it comes to male suicide, but I’m going to speculate about a few reasons here coming from a Red Pill perspective. At no other time in western history has there ever been a generation of more purposeless men. From an evolved psychological perspective, men need a function. We are innate idealists. We look outward at the world and like to imagine what could be possible. I believe there is also an innate part of our evolved mental firmware that predisposes us to problem solving and improvisation, and much of that comes as an adaptation to women’s own innate need for men who can display cues of competency.

In Competency I made the case for women’s attraction to men displaying signals of competency, confidence, mastery and creative intelligence as a selected-for survival adaptation. In short, our competency in life, whether stemming from physical prowess, social dominance or creative intelligence is integrally linked with our reproductive success as well as overall life success.

However, at no other time in history has men’s competency been so devalued and so debased; other than perhaps in terms of physical prowess and accommodating the short term (Alpha Fucks) breeding imperatives of women. At no other time in (western) history has the equity in what a man can provide or create or solve been so implicitly unnecessary or superfluous to women. When we consider the rates of college enrollment and graduation of women compared to that of men, when we consider the practical problems that men used to solve, our utility has never been less needed – or at least that’s the zeitgeist of today.

We read about how men need to accept this new social reality – that our need for purpose and function is no longer needed or as valued – and we need to change our headspace about it as if it were something men might simply turn off. This is the result of equalist beliefs that anything gender-specific is something learned rather than the innate firmware we were born with. But we cannot simply change our minds about needing a function. We evolved to be problem solvers, women talk, men do, but now we are expected to accept that men are obsolete.

Loss of Utility

In Relational Equity I made a case for men investing too much of their egos into what intrinsic (and extrinsic) value they believe their respective women ought to appreciate about themselves. Under the old books, old social contract this equity may have had some conditional value to women, but as a buffer against Hypergamy today there is very little a man might consider value-added equity (unless it’s exceedingly rare or exceedingly valued) as a hedge against Hypergamy. Before any defeatist critics tell me how not all women are like that, yes, I get it, there are a lot of variables to consider here, but the equation and the reality doesn’t change – relational equity, overall, is no insurance against Hypergamy. It is also no insurance against women’s security and providership needs being met by resources that come from outside that relationship. I’m not considering this because I’m trying to depress any man, but it is vitally necessary to consider when we look at reasons why 45-65 year old men are predisposed to higher rates of suicide and higher rates of alcoholism and opioid abuse.

I would argue that a major contributing factor to high male suicide rates finds its origins in men’s need for purpose, function and accomplishment during this phase of life. Every day I read an article about how men my own age are dropping out of social discourse. I mentioned a Boston Globe article about just this phenomenon in Male Control. In some respects I can understand that despite the unprecedented connectivity we enjoy today men really don’t seek out bonds with other men. This is primarily due to the fact that men need a common purpose in order to form these bonds. Again, this is just how we’re wired. Women intentionally schedule time to simply interact with their same-sex friends just for the sake of communicating and enjoying the act of communicating. Men need function or a common purpose to come together. We need an activity or a problem to solve and then we communicate and form bonds.

Women talk, men do. This is a well studied fact; our brains and, by extension, social networks largely center on purpose and function. Now, lets presume that in spite of having literally all the information in the world at our finger tips we remove all need for the utility that men are wired to provide to not just women, but the larger scope of Society. We get a generation of men on the outside looking in. Only the most creative, resourceful and motivated of men can really utilize, much less master, all that this information has to offer him. And even a portion of those men can really see past the antipathy of their supposed obsolescence to do something truly meaningful or masterful. As the saying goes, most men live lives of quiet desperation, but in the modern era these men are demonstrably useless. And I mean that in a functional sense; once a Beta man has been wrung of his utility to women, he ceases to be able to convince his hindbrain that he can build, improvise or solve things.

Once a man is stripped of his usefulness, once it’s made clear that all of the equity he believed would support his relationship has been erased after so long, men will still resort to practical, deductive solutions. That solution may be suicide when weighed with the prospect of having to rebuild himself in a new context; and even if he did would he just be building a new ‘him’ based on his old belief set?

When my brother in-law committed suicide it seemed to me at the time to be the most logical end he would come to. He was a man very steeped in Blue Pill ideals, but he was also a man who prided himself on what he could do – and if he didn’t know how to do something he was always a fast learner. He literally built his life, and expectations of a future life, around the relational equity he believed defined him as a man. He was very invested in the old books, old social contract that rooted a man’s attractiveness and quality in what it was he could do. What he built for himself and his wife defined his identity.

All of that 20+ years of building equity and an identity based on it was erased for him in the space of about six months. But it was more than the 20 years he’d been saving, building, solving and refining, it was a perceived future he believed would be lived out for the rest of his life that got erased.

To me, at that time, his suicide made absolutely perfect sense from a male-deductive logic perspective. What didn’t make sense was all of the endless rationalizations I heard from his family, friends, his kids, his Ex (my now widowed sister in-law) about why they thought he went through with it when it was plain for anyone who wanted to confront the truth to see. A lot of these rationales were almost verbatim the same that the article I linked used. “If only men would reach out when they have suicidal thoughts”, any and every rationale that might absolve his Ex of the guilt, and still more that were meant to console her (he must’ve been mental ill) though in the end she really didn’t need it.

My brother in-law made a practical decision not an emotional one, and while I wouldn’t presume to say that a guy’s emotional state isn’t very influential in his suicide, how he comes to the decision is very much attributable to men’s deductive nature. He showed no outward signs of emotional distress. In fact, right up to his hanging himself he was in very good spirits and seemingly accepting of the fact that the wife he lived his life for was going to be leaving him soon. He was very matter of fact in a way that men are when they’ve resolved something for themselves. When a guy seems to be taking things in stride we don’t want to create a problem where we see none.

When we look in this context at the high rate of male suicide in this age demographic we begin to see how men come to this decision. Everything they’ve built up to 45-65 years of age is now debased, devalued or simply erased. All of the value and equity they’ve committed their lives to – doing the right thing according to their Blue Pill conditioning – is as if it never mattered. So they’re confronted with a choice, rebuild themselves (hopefully in a new Red Pill aware paradigm), reconstruct a new life and tough it out, or, simply, pragmatically erase themselves.

Personally, I’ve had at least two occasions where I’ve been confronted with rebuilding myself. It’s a tough prospect, make no mistake, especially when you’re Red Pill aware and understand the reality behind having to rebuild a life from scratch after so much investment in plans and projects you truly believed in when you made them. My father had to confront this rebuilding too at around 55 years of age, but rather than rebuild or kill himself I watched him slowly decay into a man I never knew could exist as my dad.

Zeroed Out

I apologize if this topic is a bit of a downer, but I think it ought to be part of any Red Pill aware man’s understanding that at many points in our lives we will be confronted with the prospects of having to rebuild ourselves. Failure, rejection and disappointment will happen for you, that’s just part of a man’s life, and it’s easy to rattle off platitudes about how many times you get back up being the measure of a man. But what I’m saying is there will be times when total reconstruction of your life will be a necessity.

You will be zeroed out at some point, and how you handle this is a much different situation than any temporary setback. This zeroing out is made all the more difficult when you confront the fact that what you believed to be so valuable, the equity you were told was what others would measure you by, was all part of your Blue Pill conditioning. At that point you need to understand that there is most definitely a hope for a better remake of yourself based on truths that were learned in the hardest way.

To end this I’m going to quote the comment of a man I met when I spoke at the 21 Convention in September. I won’t use his name, but after we talked he confessed that he was the commenter here. He’d made the trip to the convention to meet me face to face, to thank me for my work and gave me permission to use his example in a post. I won’t quote it entirely, but you can read the whole thing here. His situation is an example of, and inspiration for, everything I’ve illuminated in this essay

After a long marriage I divorced the mother of my children. A couple of years later, after some casual dating, I met a woman I would come to describe as my soulmate. I got married young – but this time, with all my infinite wisdom gained over the years – I was finally wise enough to pick a woman I was super compatible with.

We were together for a few years and even lived together. Things started out great and it was mostly smooth sailing until we moved in together – at which time I slowly allowed myself to be betaized in a slow motion, excruciating painful way.

About a month after breaking up with her I fully planned to commit suicide. I wrote a long letter explaining my rationalization and took other affirmative steps towards going through with it. About a week after I wrote the note – with D(eath) Day fast approaching – I took a break from getting my affairs in order to surf the net. I stumbled upon an Ask Reddit thread that was bad mouthing various subreddits. Some feminazi or male feminist mentioned the Red Pill subreddit as an example of a subreddit filled with craziness, and I decided to check what all of the fuss was about. Now

I’m not a religious man, but I will never rule out divine intervention. The timing of finding TRP – by complete coincidence no less – couldn’t have been more fortuitous. I stayed up all night reading the side bar – Rollo’s essays having the deepest effect on me – and everything…just…clicked….Talk about connecting the dots! Wow! It was very much like a come to Jesus moment. It was like divinity revealed secret knowledge to me just when I needed it the most – knowledge that gave me hope and very well may have saved my life. This all went down not really that long ago in actual time – but from where I metaphorically stand now it seems like an eternity.

Stay strong my friends, you can rebuild yourself even in the face of being zeroed out.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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rugby11
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After 5 suicide’s… “My issues isn’t one of seeking some equitable disposability for women, but rather it’s drawing attention to the way women react and rationalize away their own part in that disposability.” “There is no greater powerlessness for men than a lack of control over our own disposability.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhlL7IjaZNI “We are innate idealists. We look outward at the world and like to imagine what could be possible. I believe there is also an innate part of our evolved mental firmware that predisposes us to problem solving and improvisation, and much of that comes as an adaptation to women’s own… Read more »

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Rand M Hooks
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I was with you until the zeroed out bit. I’ve read alot of your archives. I m so thankful for them. When I stumbled here I realized I had to zero myself out and rebuild. As a result I’m a 37 yo full time college student. Life is good on many levels. The timing of article is perfect I started asking women out and dating again. After taking some time to understand and live red pill. The blue pill shit still crops up at times but it’s usually accompanied with an adrenaline rush wich is a danger sign for.. Wrong… Read more »

rugby11
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You can rebuild yourself even in the face of being zeroed out.

Ruben Gonzalez
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The being zeroed out part is, as my understanding goes, a by-product of your own decisions. Men shoulder both the burden of performance and of responsibility with respect to their relationships. This is why on many fronts, having multiple plates is easier to having an LTR with one girl. However, one might also state a quality girl would not subject herself to being plated, although, the counter argument exists that any girl would subject themselves to any harem for the right guy. I do know the Mathew principle, where the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, applies with… Read more »

dr zipper
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Rollo, thanks for one of the best ever; I’ve not had any pangs to off myself but it’s easy to see how it could be a viable option from the muse commenter: “The biggest price to pay in the divorce wasn’t money or stress or love. It was the loss of all the people. People who were important to me even if I wasn’t as important to them. Bottom line I have concluded is that I’m expendable.” and you: “But it was more than the 20 years he’d been saving, building, solving and refining, it was a perceived future he… Read more »

dr zipper
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good post but it’s sure ass hell a fucking friday nite buzzkill if there ever was one

fuck you Rollo lol

Ronin
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Got zeroed at 56… Been a long road back and ending it all was often at the back of my brain. I went Monk Mode and figured most of it out, it’s a daily education just watching other men drain away their lives, a slave to pussy that wishes they would die and save the bother of a divorce.

Lost Patrol
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@Rand M Hooks Maybe Rollo will weigh back in, but I think zeroed out in this context is simply to point out what he says here: “Failure, rejection and disappointment will happen for you, that’s just part of a man’s life,…” It can have everything to do with women, or nothing at all to do with women; it’s just an observation that pertains to all living men. When it happens, rebuild. @Rollo This is a great essay, not demotivating to me at all but rather illuminating. A way to look at oneself, but also the men one knows and associates… Read more »

walawala
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Zeroed out…is that the male equivalent of “The Wall”?

Anonymous Reader
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This is one of the best, if not the perfect, times of the year for this posting. If just one man reads it and finds a toehold in his life to perch on for even a moment while regains his point of origin, that will be a great thing.

This must have been a difficult one to write. Thanks for doing that Rollo.

Ron Liebermann
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This is a difficult subject because, personally, I think that suicide should be legal; especially for the elderly. With that said, the main reason that people commit suicide is a lack of hope. It’s the imaginative ideal that gets us all out of bed in the morning. Hope, however, springs from heroism, the idea that something really great can happen. But male heroism is politically incorrect nowadays. Raising a family is no longer heroic; and being white is a political crime. I’m currently reading a book published in 1905. It’s called “Hero worship and the Heroic in History.” by Thomas… Read more »

Ajax Parallax
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Cue Blaximus…

Abelard Lindsey
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I’ve been there, on the brink, twice. Hopefully never again. What I can tell you is that most guys, at least myself, base our self-identities on competence. It is when we feel that we lack the ability to improve ourselves and our lives that give us a fundamental sense of incapability, a lack of competence, that can drive us to suicide. Men, being the Heinleinian creatures that we are, feel the need for a fundamental level of competence. Denied this, and life drains of meaning and purpose for us. This is the real reason why the liberal-left, and socialism, is… Read more »

Vlad
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Thanks a lot Rollo. This one really spoke to me. I recently broke up with my ex girlfriend about three months ago and it still hurts because she was the first girl I had sex with. I’m 26 years old. I had no success with women until around 23 when I came across the manosphere. I started dating my ex at age 24 and things were going great. I’d pass her shit tests, implement passive dread and stand my ground on certain principles. I learned all of this from Rollo and I saw how it helped our relationship grow. She… Read more »

Jacob (@_BreakYourBonds)
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Currently 25, recently zeroed out after a few years in a relationship. The hardest part to explain to people is that, it’s not necessarily the love of the woman that you miss, it’s the feeling of taking care of someone. The feeling of being there to provide for and be needed by someone else after doing so for so long. You state it very well here: “Once a man is stripped of his usefulness, once it’s made clear that all of the equity he believed would support his relationship has been erased after so long, men will still resort to… Read more »

rotepilleblog
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you cannot save anyone. thats as blue pill as it gets.

Blaximus
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@ Ron

You’re shitting me right?

Blaximus
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OK, this isn’t the comment I intended to make. Rollo thank you for the OP, and I’m sure we will experience some deep and thoughtful comments regarding the subject. Therapeutic But I need to interject something I’ve been trying to get across for years. Just a thought I think guys need to consider. I’m always tell men to ” mind your mind “. I am talking about watching what you feed your brain because it can lead to your undoing under stressful circumstance. We get quite a few pronouncements concerning communists/capitalist/Marxist… And the like. And usually the people putting this… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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you cannot save anyone. thats as blue pill as it gets.

You can talk them out of the dark place, get them to stop blackpilling and then to think better. Sometimes that’s enough.

JNK
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This post really hit home for me rollo. I’ve followed you for a while but always read comments rather than leaving one. This post however, has had such an impact considering what happened this evening. I had a fight with my wife, a girl i married because we got pregnant and due to my conservative upbringing, it was the right thing to do. To be completely honest, we both know why we did this, we were on the verge of a breakup after she discovered that id been cheating for a yr and an half of out 2 yr relationship.… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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mark baxter blocked me on twitter because he mistook an impersonal you as a personal you when he brought of the topic of older men who are accomplished in job position and what they have but their lives don’t have much to it except maintaining a well manicured lawn. So many friendships in general, in fact most people’s social life, revolve around work. Their friends they make, the people they interact with, most of their day, is taken up with work and the people they work with. When men seek to fulfill the pathway that’s expected of them to get… Read more »

Adam
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Rollo, an extremely important piece that I have bookmarked for future reference. And I must say how courageous of you it was to include that pertinent quote at the end, knowing how close your brother in law was to the red pill truths that might have saved him as well.

indianajones89
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I actually did a phone consult with Rollo after going through a terrible break up and losing a job within about the same month. The job loss was due to the breakup and I was simply in a downward spiral of depression. The girl I was dating had some serious red flags that I ignored. She flipped my world upside down. I had been promoted no less than 6 months before getting fired. I was drinking daily and counting down the days until I ran out of money for rent before I figured I would leave the city I was… Read more »

indianajones89
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Not sure why this got cut out of my previous post in this thread, but I’m happy to say that my Dad is BACK ushering college football games and I’m living in a new city with a new job. I actually live directly next store to my best friend that I grew up with in Indiana. Life is good smile

wwdex
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Man awesome story Indiana,,, I’m leaning towards giving my dad a copy of TRM… and my soon-to-be married cousin) … though I know it may be used against me as a manifesto for gossip of why I’m such an asshole in my family — (my sister is BPD and my dad’s alpha-but-blue-pill weakness is spoiling my mother who’s actually high quality). I think I’ll do it anyway. But alas, my next project is to create red pill media (I’m an artist and author) and connect red pill artists and thinkers who can lead forward the move towards male empowerment/female virtue.… Read more »

Novaseeker
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It’s a great post — one of your best, Rollo. I think one of the things to keep in mind about being zeroed out is that often it’s actually the best alternative. What I mean is that most of us will, at some point, come to a crossroads type place in some aspect of our lives where the best option is letting the course we are on zero out and starting over in a different direction. The issue is that this is never the *easiest* option — the easiest option is normally staying on the same course and petering it… Read more »

Mr Curious
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IN HERE
PEP IN HERE
IN HERE
PEP IN HERE

I DIN CHOOSE TO TROLL
TROLLIN CHOSE ME
SO I KILL DA CUCKS
STUN ‘EM
I’M DA FROG KING

IAS
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Very strong post, Rollo.

Fortunately not particularly useful for me now, but who knows the future. And certainly very important for someone right now, and in the future. Safety net, indeed:
https://therationalmale.com/2017/07/06/confidence-and-the-safety-net/

schajw
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Great post, Rollo. I’m in the middle of the age cohort you describe – 55 and twice divorced. And I could have been one of the statistics if I hadn’t gotten out of my second marriage about 5 years ago. At the time, I was suffering from physical ailments that reflected the hopelessness and despair of my situation – regular headaches and heartburn, and a pain in my shoulder blade that resulted in a tingling sensation shooting down my right arm. A month after I moved out and got the divorce process started, the headaches and heartburn almost completely disappeared… Read more »

Ofelas
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Brilliant post. Friend of mine of 35 years killed himself (not over woman as long as I can say, no note left) in August this year, and not a day goes by I wouldn’t think of reasons etc.., so this text resonates with me quite a lot now. Thank you. …. @ Vlad why would a woman share with her current man details of what exactly sexually she used to do with her exes? To me this reeks of utter disrespect. Men being quite visual, does she not realize that by telling she brings a mental picture of her being… Read more »

Opus
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Female advice is always off-point: Men are always unsympathetic. Men are what they do; women what they are.

Sentient
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Schajw

Come on man what was that sentence?

This

“So I can attract a lot of mediocre, overweight, divorced, 40-something, used-up women who hate men and have outrageously high standards, but refuse to live up to those standards themselves?”

Is a misunderstanding. Sure these women will be attracted by Alpha and game. But so will all other women. There is no difference.

So the particular kinds of women you fancy are in your reach if you choose to try.

Sentient
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JNK

Your trouble is not in marrying it is in goung Beta and adopting a Beta mindset.

Understand that.

schajw
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@Sentient – talk about missing my point and taking the quote out of context. You forgot the most important part – “I have a hell of a lot more important things to do with my life and study…” I may very well build a business. For me. For the residual income that would sustain me through my old age. The business I have in mind (no details here) would require a hell of a lot of work and study to have any kind of success. Who the hell has time to chase tail, especially when the number of qualified women… Read more »

The Last X-Man
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@JNK

I’d like to know more about your situation to really see where your behaviour became beta, if you could be more specific. I think it’s an interesting situation. I don’t agree with cheating on ones wife but that is alpha nonetheless, but I’m not sure at what point you fell off afterwards.

@Sentient

I’m sure even Rollo has said in pasts post that simply settling down with a woman means you lose value to a certain agree, no matter how strong you’re game is and how red pill you are.

Playdontpay
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Schajw

Success with women comes as a consequence of lifestyle, they’re not what drive your lifestyle.

No effort required.

Fromyourmouthto...
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Fromyourmouthto...
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Excellent essay. I faced a moment of decision of my own a couple years back at my last divorce and these were indeed the demons I grappled with. I do think far too many men isolate themselves or create life situations were they hit the ceiling of what they can achieve at work/in their careers and allow life to numb them into a slow loss of hope. Then a divorce comes and wham, the last role that was sustaining them is taken away and they end up staring into the abyss of their own mortality with little to shield them… Read more »

Sentient
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Schajw

” I’m discovering, not worth my time and effort.”

I got your point perfectly. You think you have tobput ina ton of effort to get inferior women. Not true. And the choice is not binary between work and women. False dichotomy redolent of much buffering.

Sentient
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Sentient
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The Last X Man

Rollo can speak for Rollo. In any event I disagree with your assertion. Just look at Fleezer for example.

mersonia
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@playdontpay

“Success with women comes as a consequence of lifestyle, they’re not what drive your lifestyle.”

You should at least know by now…that this isn’t true…… lol

Sentient
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Fromyourmouth

“That said, we need to avoid selling a male version of “Eat, Pray, Love” (not that Rollo is doing that, but some do) where we just join the “everyone for themselves” chorus of societal decay that exists to push us all (man, woman, and child) apart from each other and into the hands of darkness and/or the state.”

Why? What’s wrong with wanting everything and pursuing it? Why lock into a Beta mindset?

Why not live by The Platinum Rule?

IAS
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IAS
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@Schajw: as someone who is leaning towards MGTOW, don’t you find it strange that the things that you have that are better to do are basically 1. taking care of your aging mother 2. taking care of your daughters?

You should meditate on whether you really have your own Mental Point of Origin…

boulderhead
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From lieh-Tzu, part 7 “Some people think they can find satisfaction in good food, fine clothes, lively music, and sexual pleasure. However, when they have all these things, they are not satisfied. They realize happiness is not simply having their material needs met. Thus, society has set up a system of rewards that go beyond material goods. These include titles, social recognition, status, and political power, all wrapped up in a package called self-fulfillment.” Our modern world is based on this^, in a feminine primary social order, men may be promised these, but when it is taken away every man… Read more »

theasdgamer
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the love of the woman that you miss, it’s the feeling of taking care of someone.

Perhaps this feeling occurs because you’ve been programmed to want to do this?

SJB
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SJB
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Stay strong my friends, you can rebuild yourself even in the face of being zeroed out.

“Endurance is what gives rise to nobility of purpose. It is the foundation of character, the fountain of resiliency, the facilitator of hope. That which persists, endures . . .”
– Ivan Throne, The Nine Laws

Oscar C.
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Oscar C.
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I am 28 and since age 24 I have been having recurrent suicidal thoughts, so I thank you for this post, Rollo. The thing is, I have suicidal thoughts but I am not suicidal as in wanting to kill myself right now. I am quite horrified at having to leap off a bridge or stuff like that to be honest. However, I perfectly picture myself drinking some poison like the Croatian dude did in The Hague recently a few years down the road. Why? I have been thinking long and hard about this (too hard even). In my opinion it… Read more »

Oscar C.
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Oscar C.
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*I do know, sorry

Westray
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Westray
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“That said, we need to avoid selling a male version of “Eat, Pray, Love” (not that Rollo is doing that, but some do) where we just join the “everyone for themselves” chorus of societal decay” I disagree entirely with your whole brain. EPL is actually a male space anyway. Maybe substitute ‘pray’ with something like ‘red pill’ or ‘regaining your mental point of origin’ or just ‘pray’ if you want. Men are made to roam and seek physicality and sensuality. That’s our space and women are trying to invade it. What’s new? They see 58 year old men overseas who… Read more »

mersonia
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mersonia
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Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live

Westray
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Westray
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Some other points that might be adding to middle-aged suicide rates; -Divorce rape and having to work weekends, and work an extra 15 years just to pay off your worst enemy who kidnapped your children and mugged you of 700k. How many men would rather die than keep slaving away for that? Of course, it is written off as the man being so heartbroken after losing his 200 pounder that he had to die, out of male weakness etc. But it might be much closer to “Fuck it”. Some suicides have to be attributed to spite over divorce rape. I… Read more »

Westray
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Westray
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the love of the woman that you miss, it’s the feeling of taking care of someone. “Perhaps this feeling occurs because you’ve been programmed to want to do this?” Nice one gamer. Good observation. Go ahead and pursue that ‘feeling of taking care’ of that woman up to but not quite including the divorce hearing in which she will try to jail you with phony allegations of violence and pedophilia. Only the very late realization that your income stream ends in jail will have her call off that testimony. The open and obvious perjury at that point will be disregarded.… Read more »

dr zipper
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dr zipper
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“Sword of Divorceacles”

lolololol good one

Playdontpay
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Playdontpay
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@ mersonia How so? The one thing modern women hate almost as much as Betas is boredom. The very basis of Frame is having her step into your reality and not you into hers. How are you going to get her to do that if you don’t have a lifestyle that she wants to be a part of? Nice guy beta working a steady normal decently paid career YAWN YAWN YAWN! Successful DJ paid to play sets all over the country at all the top clubs flys to Ibiza for a summer residency in pasha, massive social proof fun jet… Read more »

GW
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GW
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My story is not as dramatic because I happen to have detected the downward trend of my relationship and my responsibility for it and my mindset earlier- before the brink so to speak, but this in now way takes away from the fact that I also was enabled to turn my life around and back on an upward trajectory by RP, especially this community and RT’s writings. Absolutely amazing stuff here!!

mersonia
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@playdontplay I kind enjoy people liking me for me but hey. “Nice guy beta working a steady normal decently paid career YAWN YAWN YAWN! Successful DJ paid to play sets all over the country at all the top clubs flys to Ibiza for a summer residency in pasha, massive social proof fun jet setting lifestyle. Just one example of success with women being a consequence of lifestyle.” ….You don’t think “successful dj’s” can’t be boring/beta.( I mean who are you when your not running your set) You don’t think there’s “Alpha” guys who work boring 9-5’s and are the most… Read more »

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Thought provoking article as always. I don’t usually leave comments but this one hits pretty close to home. A few years ago I lost my job (economic reasons) and after taking stock of my life (I had a lot of other underlying issues that were unaddressed, a multitude of failures, along with some really bad experiences with women) I came to the conclusion that suicide was my best option. What’s interesting is that I came to that conclusion based on the deductive process you described. After going through the emotional cycle of realizing/thinking that my life was basically in ruins,… Read more »

SJF
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I must be an anomaly because I don’t know anyone (that I ever knew) that committed suicide. And I never once had a suicidal thought ever, so don’t take anything I would say on the subject as disagreeable or think that I live in the land of unicorns (but wait, ’cause I must, actually). I have a question Rollo. Do you see any generalities in the high profile male rock stars that have committed suicide–and in relation to Red Pill concepts? Esp. Chris Cornell and Chester Bennington, as well as the myriad over the last 40 years? Or any insights… Read more »

Vlad
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Vlad
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@Ofelas It was more of a confession on my exes part. She opened up to me about things she wasn’t proud of in her past life. She had tears in her eyes when she told me. That only drove my desire to save her. She didn’t grow up with a father so the things she did in her past was from a lack of a strong man in her life to keep her stable. She didn’t do anything horrible when she was with me. I knew she felt safe with me and I felt like it was my purpose to… Read more »

SJF
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@Oscar “The thing is, I have suicidal thoughts but I am not suicidal as in wanting to kill myself right now. I am quite horrified at having to leap off a bridge or stuff like that to be honest. However, I perfectly picture myself drinking some poison like the Croatian dude did in The Hague recently a few years down the road. Why? I have been thinking long and hard about this (too hard even). In my opinion it boils down to pride. I can see that I might not get the life I want.”</blockquote That's not concrete suicidal ideations.… Read more »

mersonia
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“Esp. Chris Cornell and Chester Bennington, as well as the myriad over the last 40 years? Or any insights in to those two guys? Or are all suicidal male rockstars suicidal in their own way?”

Theres a popular theory that they were killed …and the scene was just altered to look like a suicide….something to do with exposing a pedophile ring or something . Not really worth looking up though . No one remembers these things like vegas lol

levijynx
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levijynx
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“We get a generation of men on the outside looking in.” -We wish things were like they used to be. You see people doing it all wrong and yet you refuse to conform to the beta mainstream shit. “Only the most creative, resourceful and motivated of men can really utilize, much less master, all that this information has to offer him.” -Check “And even a portion of those men can really see past the antipathy of their supposed obsolescence to do something truly meaningful or masterful.” -I’m 110% sure this is KEY. My project I’m working on all of my… Read more »

Playdontpay
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@ mersonia Of course the DJ could be a boring beta when he’s not playing his sets. But lifestyle is like looks, all other things being equal it’s an obvious advantage to have an exciting lifestyle that women want to be part of. Alpha guys working boring 9-5 jobs, not saying they don’t exist just can’t think of any that I’ve met. Nope not one! Low level jobs like door security and some construction jobs yes but boring 9-5 office jobs no never met one. Homeless Alphas banging chicks, yea sure but what about the quality? Do you think these… Read more »

levijynx
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Guys are intentionally getting oneitis and letting themselves get emotionally raped. It’s always been US.

Commiting suicide over a chick is not even beta it’s omega. You literally have to really hate yourself so much plus the social conditioning is such a toxic combo. In that sense it dose not seem like the guys fault because he was taught to be this way. HOLY SHIT THIS WORLD IS FUCKED.

We really got to wake up more men this is getting ridiculous.

Colby
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Oscar C and others who get these thoughts: try smoking a cigarette or vape when the bad thoughts come back to you. The idea is, you don’t want to die, you just want a little taste. A cigarette or vape session will do it. Hope this helps.

mersonia
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@playdontplay “Of course the DJ could be a boring beta when he’s not playing his sets. But lifestyle is like looks, all other things being equal it’s an obvious advantage to have an exciting lifestyle that women want to be part of.” Then he wouldn’t have success with women as a consequence of lifestyle . Don’t get me wrong son I do agree that it helps but it’s not a deciding factor. Looks help initially but when she finds out you’re a retard(This isn’t a jab at you personally) they won’t matter. “Success with women comes as a consequence of… Read more »

Morpheus
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Your number one objective is to protect yourself from having your mind snatched by the promise of some kind of reward or measure of self worth by devotion to some kind of societal, man made concept designed to gain control of your thoughts and manipulate your beliefs.</i? Great stuff here. I suppose I recently got "zeroed out" in the sense that I had thought I had built up much relational equity that I could draw on when necessary but my ex-wife clearly saw things differently. I do want to present a counterpoint though to something that is "conventional wisdom" in… Read more »

mersonia
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@Colby

“Oscar C and others who get these thoughts: try smoking a cigarette or vape when the bad thoughts come back to you. The idea is, you don’t want to die, you just want a little taste. A cigarette or vape session will do it. Hope this helps.”

terrible advice bro

Morpheus
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She is a great mom and partner, but i can tell that theres been a loss of status for me. I maintain my frame but ive come to believe that any man who proposes to a woman, marries her and works to maintain his family, is headed for the zeroing out. Being a husband is not an alpha move, no matter how hard you try. BAM! Drop the fuckin mic. Sadly, I’ve concluded you are 100% spot on. And I’ll repeat something I mentioned previously. Even if you operate from the “right frame” there are still many, many headwinds a… Read more »

Ofelas
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@ Vlad I understand and can relate to quite an extent. Given that you obviously had both rational doubts and negative physical ‘gut’ response ( – the turn off you mention. Here I may be too cynical, but somehow it feels that what she confessed was the proverbial top part of the iceberg, that she thought you could still handle..), plus the ‘saving’ dynamic present in the relationship from your part (she could sense it and would adjust herself accordingly), it was probably good decision, especially when you were seriously considering marriage. But that of course won’t make the doubts… Read more »

hank holiday
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@oscar best advice for suicidal thoughts is to go out and exercise, particularly running several miles. Or go hang out with people. middle aged men tend to have higher suicide rates because they have a more limited social circle. Being cut off from others is a major contributor to suicide…its leaves you stuck in your own thoughts, with no one to help you or encourage you. Things like smoking, drinking, those are all very dangerous. You can develop a dependence very quickly if you aren’t careful. Its better that you go out and create actual positive feelings rather than rely… Read more »

Morpheus
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IndianaJones, Very poignant. I went through something similar at the age of 30 (I’m 43 now) except the order was reversed. I was fired first and then actually a few days after that my wife said she wanted to end the marriage (that was my first marriage). This was 2004 so it predates the Red Pill/sphere as we know it now, but I stumbled on Rollo’s writings on SoSuave, and they opened the door to me that another way/belief structure was possible. I started bouncing part-time, developed some camaderie with a group of guys, and got back into lifting very… Read more »

Colby
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Colby
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People who want to kill themselves usually aren’t thinking clear. Nicotine has been known to help people think clear. So how is that bad?

Colby
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Colby
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Cops who talk down jumpers from buildings or bridges, usually offer them a cigarette to back away from the ledge. So again, how is this bad?

Morpheus
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It’s usually best to really consider things carefully when you find yourself at a crossroads in life. It may be best to voluntarily zero out the course you are on and rebuild, rather than continuing on that course until it forces you off unvoluntarily, or until it wears you down into a shell of your former self.</i? Excellent point Nova. There is a business parallel, and that is the idea of "sunk costs" and that you should not factor them into your decision making. If you have a business that is generating losses/cash flow negative with no hope of turning… Read more »

Ofelas
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Ofelas
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P. S.
just, these come to mind now somehow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXiaJhIcUc

westray
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westray
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“Being a husband is not an alpha move, no matter how hard you try.” I have to agree here even though the married alphas on TRM will bite back hard on this. The ramifications of VAWA, divorce and our blatantly sexist family courts are well known by women too and that betaizes the husband automatically. I’m not saying there aren’t guys out there who can overcome it with ‘frame’ etc. I’m just saying that of all the myriad definitions of alpha, one word has to be agreed upon; power. An alpha projects power in whatever way. A husband in our… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@Play To what would you attribute his success if not lifestyle? Looks. Signals of entitlement. Example: I’m over 60 and look it, but not many wrinkles unless I grin big (but hey, who doesn’t show wrinkles when they grin big), overweight, bald. I wear a cap normally and sunglasses when the sun is shining. I was walking thru a Wally World parking lot and I noticed a 30ish hottie checking me out (staring). It’s my walk and posture. They convey entitlement. Women have to look at me to see my signals. So looks, entitlement. Women say that I have a… Read more »

Waffles
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Waffles
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Good post. I am 33 and have never seriously considered suicide but have recently thought about it casually after a break-up with a GF of 4.5 years who I thought I would marry and have a happy life with. As such I am back to square one and anxious of the future. Other posters are correct that it isn’t so much losing “the one”, it is more losing all those connections and memories of that person. I lost a lot of people (her sister and her husband, her parents, her cousins) who I genuinely cared about. After everything happened I… Read more »

theasdgamer
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“Talk about clown game! How long do you think you can maintain the emotional rollercoaster?”

30+ years so far…”clown game” lol…it’s the price of being with a woman in a LTR. You’ll be doing lots of “clown game” to spin plates, too. I’m always amusing myself…if people see that as being a clown, they are socially retarded…clowns seek to amuse other people

Oscar C.
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Oscar C.
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@Colby Thanks for your advice, I had heard something about nicotine boosting cognition. I already smoked a bit during this summer in order to open chicks, but did not like it. Terrible breath when waking up the next day. Also, my suicidal thoughts are more like mid/long term planning. I live with my parents, I am a single kid, and I know it would devastate them, so it is out of the question right now. But if they were not there, and I had financial problems, I know I would seriously consider it. All done in a very rational manner,… Read more »

Oscar C.
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About celebrities doing suicide this guy was recent as well:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5047575/Veronica-Mars-Brad-Bufanda-commits-suicide-aged-34.html

Blaximus
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Westray

… I’m legally bound ( supposedly) to do a lot of shit. Depends on how you perceive your obligations to legality. The more you fear and succumb to ” legalities “, the less alpha you are. Period.

Remember, not every man approaches things in the exact same way there’s nothing on earth that automatically betasizes a man other than himself.. Not women nor laws.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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I think the first step in breaking beta is to stop fearing women.

Then you can work on not fearing anything

Fredrick Welfare
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Suicide and Narcissism If domination by the narcissist elicits identification, perhaps via empathy or being-ethical, the narcissist uses their self-righteousness for short-term matings and low parental investment. They get away with being arrogant, nonresponsive, and manipulative. The key is to address narcissists without identifying with them and without falling into their structuring attitude. The mythical notion of Narcissism is that the person is enthralled by their own self-image or self-perception. Narcissism in psychiatric terms is about people who feel self-righteous, the bully as well as the dope fiend, the shamers and the haters. Narcissism is also about people who are… Read more »

westray
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Blax,

Well that’s you. I was discussing normal guys in the current culture. You’re not claiming normalcy and mediocrity are you? Husbands in our culture are in a legally subordinated position in a lot of ways. It doesn’t mean that nobody is alpha-ing their way through it, it just means that a guy better know an awful lot about our culture to avoid being seen as a beta by his soon-to-be heifer.

Blaximus
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Westray

I’m made of the exact same molecules as every other man on the planet. I wasn’t sent here by my dad from krypton.

Mindset and application – correctly and with masculine understanding.

Shit works wonders .

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Fear no woman.

westray
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I don’t disagree. We’re not talking about fear or any feelings here at all, though. As for me, I was talking about the legal structure of marriage and how it automatically, legally disempowers (beta-izes) males. When a woman knows that she can rout a man legally, it would be hard for her to see him as some indomitable alpha, in most cases. I don’t have a horse in this race though—not married, never will. Flip it around. What if your wife starts nagging and you can then threaten to call the police and have her locked up? And both of… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Westray I’m going to reply to mersonia’s inquiry about marriage as soon as I can pull my thoughts together, but I can say this much right now. It doesn’t matter what the courts or judges or cops can do. In vetting a chick for suitability, a man has to be able to suss out what her character is beyond sex and making a killer dinner. I’ve always maintained that most men neglect this aspect, or don’t find it Important. Your woman should never threaten you, and you should have a well developed sense of what she thinks and how she… Read more »

westray
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We’re on two different subjects entirely. You’re talking about vetting and I’m talking about how the legal environment of modern marriage makes husbands into defacto betas.

fleezer
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fleezer
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“after we talked he confessed that he was the commenter here. He’d made the trip to the convention to meet me face to face, to thank me for my work” classy as hell. Rollo is just like the guy who steps between the gunfire and the women and children. He fucking saves lives by his very nature. beautiful. at the first whiff of smoke or the first pop of a rifle I’m pushing over the women and children in the theater to get to the exit. then I’m running like a coward and not looking back. shelter in place when… Read more »

M Simon
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M Simon
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A read of John Hersey’s War Lover is instructive. The punch line (and is it ever a punch) comes at the end. It is a good read and worth your time. Especially if you want a look at the social conditions in England/America during WW2.

The Last X-Man
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@Sentient I’m eager to know why you disagree with my assertion. If I’m wrong please explain why as it’ll improve my understanding. I’ve never been in a “serious” relationship, so my own experience is limited, but if a man settles down with a woman I can’t really see how he won’t be automatically less desirable — even if it is only by a small degree, as he is no longer the thing she wanted but couldn’t entirely have. At the very least, the uncertainty of her becoming a permanent recipient of his valued attention is lost. When you’re single and… Read more »

fleezer
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“Your woman should never threaten you, and you should have a well developed sense of what she thinks and how she perceives you Wrt the rest of Society.” agree. she should worship you to the point you can do no wrong “This is why finding a woman for purposes outside of sex is so difficult and time consuming.” agree. they are all narcs. realize that every piece of potential damaging info she has on you will come to light. there are no secrets between two people, especially when one of them is a woman. “It’s also why men should interact… Read more »

Blaximus
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@ Last X Good. Have hope. I love that shit, but recognize that ” hope ” isn’t a strategy. I’ve mentioned here how men seem to look for things ( religion, authority, societal norms and standards, political bullshit ) to acquiesce to. Rollo mentions a sense or feeling of uselessness. I agree with that and attribute the bulk of that feeling to becoming way too comfortable acquiescing to The Powers That Be and the dictates of other from without. No one or no thing really has any power over you or your actions other that the power you voluntarily give… Read more »

westray
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Just in my smallish circle of a dozen friends (10 divorced, one threatened with it recently, one trying to withstand a monstrous shrew), I can’t believe the things that the women (former friends) have done in divorce courts. So good luck with your swagger, playful eyes etc. You’re gonna need it. Heading off into the unfair legal framework of marriage v. 2017 is submission. I’m not talking about stud alphas who got married in 1997 and held frame etc. I’m talking about knowing the legalities of modern marriage and knowing what normal UMC women have shown themselves to be capable… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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For years I’ve been trying to explain that you don’t just stop being who you are because you’re tired or you lost your job or you are ill. I can’t understand why this is so hard to grasp. I’m serious about that. And why would your wife ” nag ” you? Hmmmmm, discount vetting – but a nagging wife is a vetting failure. I’ve never had such a woman. Not talking about any manner of not being who you are ( or who you’ve molded yourself to be ), but it must be real, true and INTERNALIZED. Then it won’t… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Westray Yes, I too witness many many men having a veery hard time with wives and girlfriends. The men I’m seeing are 100% clueless about how they should’ve avoided their predicament, or how they can solve/eliminate/stop their current female misfortune. What does this really say? I mean really? If you beta. If you don’t get what masculinity is. If you know nothing about female nature other than ” they’re all evil and crazy ” , or you double down on ” nice “, you’re gonna get fucked.. If you walk across the African Savannah with a zebra strapped to your… Read more »

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