The Unbearable Rightness of Being Female

unbearable

The following post quote has been making the rounds in professional circles. It’s from Sallie Krawcheck, CEO of Ellevest, an investment firm dedicated to helping women with financial investment (no jargon, no ‘playing’ stocks for sport, no mansplaining, you got this). She’s also the “chair” of Elevate Network, a global professional women’s network. I’m adding this here to make a later point, but it’s important to understand how normalized it’s become for women to create a sexually exclusionary organization for women who will simultaneously complain about men’s sexism for not accommodating their (presumably successful) business culture to the interests of women. More on that later.

I thought I’d riff on this click-bait for, I assume, professional women because I expect we’ll see more of this prefabricated outrage in the coming years as a response to what will undoubtedly be the suffering of the Trump era in America. I’ll be the first to admit I was surprised by Trump’s win, but the denial of the First Female President® into the White House will be the cause du jour for every jilted woman who believes she’s a “professional”. Even if Clinton had won the mainstream would’ve been inundated with how ‘we still have a long way to go’ stories, however, with Trump in the Presidency the same tired narrative of systemic male sexism will get reinvigorated in the coming years.

From, A Letter to young women, in the age of Trump:

When I was your age, I thought it was over. My mother was a feminist, so I wanted to call myself anything but a feminist. And anyway, I seemed pretty welcome at work. Even though it was Wall Street, my analyst class was about a third women. We weren’t just on our way — we’d arrived.

But then…there were the inappropriate pictures left on my desk. The guy miming a sex act when my back was turned. I wasn’t given the great assignments; the more senior woman I worked with was likewise dismissed as “lightweight” (and, lest you think that might have been true, that woman was Safra Catz, now the co-President of Oracle). Then the women started to fall away in their 30s…more in their 40s. But the worst of it, I thought was over.

And now Trump has made it clear to everyone that the battle for us women is not over.

In femopshere there will always be an ‘us’. As I’ve outline in many prior essays, the Sisterhood will always take precedence above religion, politics, personal conviction and even family affiliations for women. Largely this is due to women’s evolved propensity for collectivism among their own sex. In our hunter gatherer beginnings women had an interdependent need for collective support for keeping tribal cohesion as well as child rearing.

This intrasexual collective support has carried over into what’s become the Sisterhood today. If you look at the interactions of young girls and their social group interdependence you begin to see that nascent tribal collectivism naturally come through. In terms of larger societal scope this collectivity becomes about acknowledging a shared experience of an imagined oppression by men. Between all women there is a gestalt understanding of “the plight of women” and a presumption of an endemic sexism no matter how culturally or socioeconomically dissimilar those women are.

As I mentioned, Trump is now a universal icon of that presumption of sexism and oppression. Granted, it could’ve been any man who displaced a woman in the history books, but the fall back presumption is that whoever ‘he’ is, he becomes emblematic of a ready narrative of sexism irrespective of merit. We presume sexism, we presume a guy would mime a sex act behind a woman’s back and leave ‘inappropriate’ pictures on a woman’s desk despite decades of workplace harassment legislation. We believe it because it sounds right; it sounds like something a typical sexist guy would do.

I can’t stop thinking about this and what we can / should do:

Remember that gender bias in the workplace is not a thing of the past. I’m sorry if I didn’t act when I should have. I thought we had left sexism behind us by the time I was in more senior roles. After all, we had complaint hotlines and diversity plans and requirements for diverse slates of candidates for every job. But now I’m remembering one of the members of the senior leadership team who would kiss younger women on the cheek at the beginning of meetings. Creepy, right? I now wonder what was being said when I wasn’t in that room.

What’s creepy is that in spite of years in a professional field that’s been the domain of men she’s just now remembering this fact. Would it have been less creepy if he’d kissed only his age-appropriate women on his leadership team? Professional women’s default presumption is that it is always sexism that is holding them back from breaking through a mythologized ‘glass ceiling’, but as is women’s solipsism, their first thought is that their problems are caused by externalities. Never is there an insight that they may simply lack the skills or that they don’t perform at their peak in a job they were told should be rewarding to them.

Gender biases will never be a thing of the past because to suggest they ever might be so is to presume a default state of egalitarian equality between the sexes. The gender biases in the workplace are most evident in the peer selection and peer evaluations of women – not some secret group of guys getting together in a private office room to expressly talk about a their co-workers’ tits.

As it stands in today’s modern office men are scared shitless every time they are called to cooperate with a woman on work projects for fear of being accused of sexism or harassment:

“In a lawsuit-happy culture, where claims can be made on a ‘he said/she said’ basis, men are now trying to ensure their actions are always covered by a third party witness”

“The terror of being accused of sexual harassment is now so common it has its own term, ‘backlash stress”

There’s a reason HR departments are largely staffed by women, because they want to be positioned in a way that they can execute policy. HR departments no longer exist to serve the company with regards to employees, rather they exist in order to protect that company from lawsuits and enforce feminine-primary conditions in the workplace.

Ask tough questions, and call the guys out when necessary. I recently asked my best guy friend: “Do guys really talk like Donald Trump and Billy Bush behind closed doors?” His response: “No, but…” And the “but” was that the conversations are more along the lines of: “Boy, she has great legs,” or “she’s a looker” or “Whew. Wouldn’t touch her with a ten-foot pole.” When I asked him how he responded to this, he said he didn’t say anything; after all, he has to work with these folks.

But so do we. And breaking us down to our body parts or our appearance dehumanizes us in some way. Maybe it’s only in some small way. But it’s clear that for some years, we (and by we, I mean I) were likely too complacent about the inevitability of gender progress in the workplace and relaxed perhaps just a bit too much.

It’s funny and irreverent when all the girls in the office get together for drinks or a male revue strip show after work, but it’s dehumanizing when men do the same. I’ve known very few men who would ever comment on a woman’s anatomy in a workplace environment. I have known men who would scold other men for staring a little too long at a female co-worker. I have known women to actively flirt with guys and wear inappropriate outfits to get attention from them. I’ve known women who’ve called me and other men I’ve worked with their “work husbands”.

I’ve worked in the liquor and casino promotion businesses for two decades now. I see some pretty wild behavior on the part of women who are not unlike the poor victimized dears Krawcheck describes going to work on Monday mornings.

The modern workplace culture has conditioned men for fear of women thanks largely to strict codes of conduct, but also because these men have been raised from birth to be dutiful Betas and White Knights who look for every opportunity to correct a ‘typical man’ for his sexist and rude behaviors. They look for these backroom boys clubs where women are rated on their looks so as to expose their heinous misogyny and institutionalized sexism, but they are disappointed when they don’t actually find it. So instead they contribute to an atmosphere of fear in some lame form of Beta Game they hope will be recognized and rewarded for by workplace women.

If you’re in a bad work situation, it’s ok to quit. So many women think that it’s a “failure” if you quit your job; and you know how hard we females take failure. But sometimes it’s not us: it’s them.

I recently left the board of a non-profit that I LOVE. I had been on it for years (and years). At nearly every meeting I asked how much we were spending on our investment managers, in comparison to the return we were getting. Meeting after meeting I was told that the answer was complex, it was hard to calculate, it would take a lot of work – and why did it matter anyway? It was really the net returns that matter, regardless of how much we paid for them. And then, last spring, before I could bring up the topic, one of the men did; and all the other guys eagerly agreed with him, that we need to keep an eye on fees because those are really all we can control.

I quit the next week.

Life is too short, and I can have a lot more impact with the week-a-year I get back instead of being ignored in meetings.

I know not everyone is in the position to quit; I wasn’t earlier in my career. So the onus is also on those of us who are more senior to be more supportive of women who leave these situations. I am hopeful that an outcome of this election will be greater understanding of this.

If it had been a woman who’d made the same suggestion would we be hearing about this? Shit like this happens all the time in the workplace. One reason The 48 Laws of Power resonated with men so well is because it was relatable to exactly this kind of situation. Law 7: Get others to do the work for you, but always take the credit for it yourself. Sallie sees this as sexism because it happened to be a guy who pulled it on her, but would she have quit the non-profit had it been a woman who outplayed her?

This is the reality of even the most seemingly benign of companies. They are defined by the interplay of power dynamics, but when women are bested in it the sexism narrative is ready on standby to comfort and explain their failure. So it becomes OK to quit, because the environment is always sexist. The business environment is one defined by competition and this grates on women’s expectation of it to be cooperative and collective. Women like Sallie expect recognition for merit, but wish for things to be easier rather than developing the skills to play the game better.

Get yourself a senior, successful – preferably female – mentor, who can help you navigate the politics of your company. This includes the gender politics. Can’t find one on your own? Speak to HR about helping you find one; this is their job, after all.

Your company doesn’t have a senior, successful female? Get the hell out of there.

Really the only sexism I’m seeing in this piece has been one coming from and endorsed by Krawcheck. She bemoans a lack of gender equity and then suggests a female mentor would be preferable to a male one. Her sexism is blatant here – the only definition of a solid reputable company is one that ensures it has a senior, successful female in it. Since most HR departments are staffed primarily with women it’s their job to help you find a senior, successful and female mentor? I’m not a business insider, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t their job.

I made this point in Male Space, but what happens when women insert themselves into a traditionally male dominated domain is that the enterprise becomes about accommodating the female influences rather than the enterprise itself. This entire article is an indictment of this. Again, the solution to a woman’s problem of not being successful is sought externally.

Do your best to make sure that your success is quantified. Be it a sales goal, a client satisfaction rating, an output metric, a quality target. Numbers count here because they’re black-and-white, cut-and-dried. Were you successful or not? I recommend this even if you work in a “normal” company, because implicit gender biases and expectations still exist for all of us.

Solid enough advice, but it’s couched in the context of an expectation of gender biases (at least the type of bias Sallie finds unacceptable). There’re implicit gender biases, but the ones we see dominate even ‘normal’ companies are ones that favor a feminized workforce.

Think about starting your own thing. This is what’s exciting; we have the ability to start our own businesses today, in a way we didn’t in the past. Why not take our marbles to our own playgrounds and build great businesses and cultures? Our mothers couldn’t do this because the cost was so high – but the costs of everything-about-starting-a-business, including technology, people (i.e., freelancers), real estate (co-working spaces) and support services are coming down. And then no one can relegate you to the less-interesting jobs.

Women are taught that they deserve the luxury of interesting jobs. In fact this is the sole reason for even wanting to enter the workforce most times – a rewarding career that’s fulfilling, but as I wrote in She’s Unhaaapy… that fulfillment is always elusive. Therefore it must be that uncooperative men are holding women back from this happiness.

I’m not sure opening another gourmet cupcake eatery counts as contributing to the status of women in business, but I would say that women ought to be encouraged to start up their own businesses rather than rely on the proven successes of established ones to prove their business acumen. Carly Fiorina and Sheryl Sandberg are not innovators in any sense. Neither started a company from scratch, but they are lauded as powerful businesswomen because they supposedly had the moxie to compete with the big boys and their sexist enterprises – not actually as a result of their companies wanting to present a feminine-correct public image.

I would love to see women’s organic business successes despite themselves, but my guess is that every failure or setback would have some tinge of external sexism attached to them. The truth is there are very few women who actually create something of worth because the easier path to success is to create a social convention that shames men for not including women in their own successes. It will always be easier for women to appropriate the success of men rather than create anything for themselves.

I am going to go out of my way to support other women. It’s clear now: we can’t do this alone. Another woman who is promoted or celebrated or funded clears the way for another. I am actively looking to buy from women-owned businesses, which is much easier these days — Glossier, Outdoor Voices, and Project September are just a few of a new wave of startups led by women — and avoid companies that remain all-men. I’m just so over supporting them.

And here we have yet more fem-centric sexism in a piece decrying male sexism. Weren’t we just reading about how surprised Sallie was about gender bias not being a thing of the past in the workplace? Because Trump won the election she calls for a boycott from buying anything from male owned companies?

One thing I’ve always found ironic about women’s call for collective, gender-exclusionary support for other women is that women are often guilty of even worse infighting than men are in the workplace. Lets face it, women hate other women to a degree that most men are unaware of. Their capacity for sub-communication and psychological warfare among themselves makes intra-sexual competition more brutal than having to deal with any so-called sexist male co-worker. From women’s collectivist perspective one would think that women’s intra-sexual support of other women would make them all outstanding successes in business, but we find the opposite is true. Women have a very hard time making an all-female enterprise a success. Naturally this is blamed, again, on men’s sexists brinksmanship and outmaneuvering them, but by and large it’s internal conflict that destroys all-female run enterprises.

Invest. Having spent my career on Wall Street and now being the founder of Ellevest, a digital investment platform for women, I know I’m a broken record on this topic. But men invest to a greater extent than women do, and it costs us. Indeed, I believe investing is the best career advice women aren’t getting. Think about it – are you more able to tell your boss to take this job and shove it if you have more money or less money?

That’s what I thought. At the end of the day, money is the real key to gender equality.

Of course we get the sales pitch at the end. Women don’t invest because it’s not sexy. It requires a degree of commitment and a depth of insight that goes well beyond what an average woman has any interest in. I do find it entertaining that Sallie finally gets to the real reason for a gender inequality she claims she wants to see abolished. Money is most definitely a key to establishing social dominance and that creates a fundamentally unequal condition between men and women.

Businesses, successful ones, are founded on competition, not cooperation. This is the fundamental conflict we are experiencing in today’s corporate culture; women’s collectivism promotes what they believe should be a successful enterprise based on egalitarian cooperation while men largely see the enterprise as competition. Sometimes this is a win-at-any-cost type of competition, other times it may be more subtle, but the crux is that women’s propensity to want for a more collectivist approach to a successful enterprise is at odds with men’s competitive approach. Success in business is fundamentally unegalitarian, there are winners and losers, not co-equal participation trophy winners. But as women continue to insert themselves into the unegalitarian male spaces of enterprise we will see this push for cooperative hopes for business success fundamentally alter the purpose of these businesses as we attempt more and more to accommodate them.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Culum Struan
Culum Struan
9 years ago

@Anonymous Reader Re the Bakken oil shales etc: it doesn’t matter how much oil is left if the net energy derived from it (ie, after deducting the energy cost of extraction) is going DOWN. Sharply. Basically we’ve picked all the low hanging fruit. I haven’t checked the stats in a while but if I remember correctly, for your regular cheap Saudi type oil field, each unit of energy expended in extraction produces something like 200x the energy equivalent in oil – a huge “profit”. But the newer fields (Bakken etc) are much more difficult to extract in energy terms. I… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Rollo’s comments today accumulate to full Winz Teh Internetz!

mersonia
9 years ago

You guys really like to promote RSD…..

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

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Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

I’m afraid we are headed in our grandchildrens’ time for a post-fossil fuel world – Peak Oil happened in 2005.

Ok, so you’re not a numbers guy, probably low T (Do you even lift?), and fond of apocalyptic-TEOTWAKI-porn that’s even less relevant to TRM than Bytes Churchian concern-trolling. Thanks for making that clear. Have a nice End Of The World.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“Life has no meaning.” This is not quite correct. Life has no deeper meaning. If you are not your own mental point of origin, then this realization will tend to fuck with your head, because you are looking for validation outside of yourself. A lion doesn’t have this problem. When he’s hungry, he kills something and eats it. That’s good living. Listen, do you want to know The Secret? In order to make progress you have to get off your ass and do something. Things move because a force is applied to them. No force, no motion. Sit around thinking… Read more »

scray
scray
9 years ago

@blax Abstract thought is mainly for thinkers. If ” God ” tells you not to think or concern yourself with theory and abstraction, it may indeed speed up acquired results. But you won’t master. You won’t create. You won’t innovate. You will forever be competent. ….unless you develop a different mindset. Yup, mindset. It cannot be escaped wrt ultimate improvement ( or ultimate destruction). dude you guys are doing this again and it’s so tired and lame. no one is saying ‘NEVER THINK ABSTRACTLY EVER’ no one is saying ‘DON’T EVER HAVE A MINDSET’ but it’s REALLY TELLING that the… Read more »

gdeejay
gdeejay
9 years ago

@Culum Struan

I wish I could find the paper I read and saved. I vaguely remember: The hey day of Middle East oil was something like 20:1. We are currently below 10:1, as you pointed out. By 2050 we will be somewhere less than 2:1.

othergrain
othergrain
9 years ago

Lol at the whole “RSD is a cult” belief here. There is considerable overlap between pickup and the red pill… so when you have a blog’s comments section ostensibly focused on inter-sexual dynamics…yea RSD puts out a lot of relevant content.

I don’t even get what you guys are arguing anymore…it just sounds like “well, *I* was here FIRST!!!” Like Violet Beauregarde

scray
scray
9 years ago

@kfg In order to make progress you have to get off your ass and do something. Things move because a force is applied to them. No force, no motion. Sit around thinking positively and fuck all happens. What positive thinking does is remove the obstacles to motion that you yourself put in your way. And that’s all. There is no woo involved. annnnnd kfg simply repeats what the PUAs have been repeatedly saying the past few threads NUMBER 1 = ACTION Mindset is only relevant to the extent that it helps you accomplish NUMBER 1. That is it. That is… Read more »

SFC Ton
9 years ago

AR I wouldn’t do the iPad deal. Wrong crowd for sure but on my last run I found a place a lot like mine with an all male staff. A lot like mine, high end real-estate, scenic highway etc Spoke with the owner some and according to him not only did it put an end to the catty bullshit and chick drama but made more money due to less employee theft. Customer based shifted to older folks spending more money on food and somewhat less on booze I (part) own a roadhouse kind of place. Basically a very clean, well… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

Tell Owen Dr. Wayne Dyer called; he wants his abstract memes back.

SFC Ton
9 years ago

Wait! Ollie is a dude? You gotta be sitting me

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray The only way Sentient can use Dynamic, Passionate, and Authentic is to review behavior AFTER THE FACT. Not true. It is one way though. Essentially it boils down to looking at whatever worked and saying ‘AH YES THAT IS DPA’ and whatever didn’t ‘AH THAT IS NOT DPA.’ Suggest you start there… pull the string Scray. See what fits in the “works” bucket… But you can’t pick and choose… remember DPA are the irreducible characteristics of “Alpha”, Alpha is attractive to women… but you still need to learn the female language of seduction though to better act on the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

Prima: Dude, that’s bullshit!
Secundus: No, Dude, it’s not bullshit.
Prima: I never said it was bullshit!

And around we go.

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray

LOL NUMBER 1 = ACTION

Is action dynamic?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

kfg

And around we go.

That’s bullshit!

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“Mindset is only relevant to the extent that it helps you accomplish NUMBER 1.”

There’s snow on my driveway, so I went and got some dynamite . . .

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

Suggest you start there… pull the string Scray. See what fits in the “works” bucket…

No thanks. Feel free to do a write up of something that can be field tested. Until then, it’s just blah blah blah blah blah.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Ton
Wait! Ollie is a dude? You gotta be sitting me

Ollie says it is a dude. Maybe is, maybe isn’t. Some beaten down, betaized or low T men tend to write like women, so could be dude. On the other hand….

Not that any girl has ever tried to pose as a man here before..so, Ollie is more like Schroendinger’s dude to me.

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

So you agree action is dynamic?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Othergrain
Lol at the whole “RSD is a cult” belief here.

It’s almost as though “RSD is a cult” is a cult…

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

Is action dynamic?

Not necessarily, but it can be, which gets back to ‘wow DPA can mean anything!’

@kfg

There’s snow on my driveway, so I went and got some dynamite . . .

And you go back to missing the point again. Don’t worry, in a few threads you’ll post something that I’m saying right now and try to pass it off as some of your shit.

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scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

Like I said, if it’s such a Rosetta stone of alpha behavior you should be able to give me a CLEAR write-up about how to apply this IN-FIELD so that we can TEST it.

Of course, treating a list of adjectives as ‘abstract principle’ is silly in and of itself and explains why thus far, you can’t fulfill my simple request.

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

Does this count as blah blah blah?

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newlyaloof
9 years ago

@Rollo, trapped in mod.

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  newlyaloof

@newlyaloof, you sure? I’m not seeing anything.

pellaeon
pellaeon
9 years ago

Hey Pellaeon You write/express yourself well. Thanks man. And you prove my point that you younger folks can’t handle the abstract and need concrete and think on your feet, while older experinced guys are comfortable with the abstract (because they tested well for them via experience. The old Maxwell Smart “I’ll Know it When I See It Trick”. (Because we’ve been testing the world and people for over five decades). I disagree with your actionable advice only because none of this abstract stuff can be tested. That’s silly. Rollo is know for not being prescriptive and handing out individual advice… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray

Is action dynamic?

Not necessarily

So explain…

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

“I have 17 year old girl who just passed through this phase…”

I don’t think You’ve been through this phase.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

So explain…

You first. You’re the one trying to get everyone to buy your adjectives-are-really-a-principle schtick.

Very simple.

Write up a clear guide on how to identify and predict DPA behaviors and then I will go out an sarge and put it to the test this weekend.

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Andy

Progress!

I don’t think You’ve been through this phase.

At least you acknowledge it is a phase…

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray

So explain…

“you first”

LOL… and you wonder why you aren’t getting this…?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Ton I wouldn’t do the iPad deal. Wrong crowd for sure but on my last run I found a place a lot like mine with an all male staff. A lot like mine, high end real-estate, scenic highway etc Spoke with the owner some and according to him not only did it put an end to the catty bullshit and chick drama but made more money due to less employee theft. Customer based shifted to older folks spending more money on food and somewhat less on booze That man surely had a lot of repeat customers. Kind of place where… Read more »

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“Is action dynamic?”

Hint: In the jargon of physics action is called “dynamics.”

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Ton – don’t forget the kale. Some cities any upscale place has a kale salad. It’s The Thing right now. If you put enough shrimp on it, kale is pretty good.

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
9 years ago

@Rollo
Lol I don’t think I’ve ever seen you troll before. This makes me exceedingly happy.

@Scray

That all assumes that you have the correct abstract principles. You don’t discover if they are correct unless they are tested and testable. Otherwise everyone can just sit around blah blah blah blah blah blah with their nonsense.

HUGE CO-SIGN

If the measure of an abstract principle’s correctness was the number of old men who passionately believed it, then the blue pill would be correct.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

No, I don’t wonder. There’s nothing to get. You can’t give me a simple how-to on your “profound” concept, which is a huge bullshit red flag.

But whenever you get around to getting me a clear how-to on your concept, I’ll go test it and we’ll see if it holds up. Until then, it’s just a dynamic, passionate, and authentic fart in the wind to any PUA.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@Pell

If the measure of an abstract principle’s correctness was the number of old men who passionately believed it, then the blue pill would be correct.

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kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“You can’t give me a simple how-to on your “profound” concept . . .”

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

Damn, Pellaeon. “I would argue that it’s less that us YSGs “can’t handle” abstract concepts, but more so that we don’t have the same reference experiences anchored to them.” That’s very perceptive. And it is correct. And because they are abstractions, Scray wants: “Like I said, if it’s such a Rosetta stone of alpha behavior you should be able to give me a CLEAR write-up about how to apply this IN-FIELD so that we can TEST it.” I would argue they don’t need to be tested because they are self evident. And the concepts, abstracts and thoughts are not nearly… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Pellaeon expecting that his passion will do the work of transferring his reference experiences, rather than experimenting with how to convey them with different wording. More like I expect the reader to try and work it out in good faith, explore the concepts mentally themselves and seek genuine understanding to start with vs mend through countless strawmen, red herrings and goalposts moving for the sake of Teh Internet Glory and prior investment… I’ve posted the hypothesis as to why these three are the irreducible Alpha traits… to no avail… Understanding must be sought before it is found. Maybe you are… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray

You can’t give me a simple how-to on your “profound” concept, which is a huge bullshit red flag.

Still waiting on the whole action is not necessarily dynamic thingy…

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

If the measure of an abstract principle’s correctness was the number of old men who passionately believed it, then the blue pill would be correct.

Argumentum ad populum is always correct, just ask anyone. Well, anyone in the right crowd…not any of the riffraff. Goes without saying.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@kfg

Hint: In the jargon of physics action is called “dynamics.”

Hint: using a word with several senses that together encompass pretty much anything allows for endless equivocating — a favorite OMG ‘tactic.’

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

“At least you acknowledge it is a phase…”

I’m starting to even out. Doesn’t change the fact that life has no meaning. Yes, I get that that is a good thing. Regardless, I just don’t see Julien or YaReally missing something you or Owen has.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

I just did that and nothing happened. Of course the engine wasn’t running. Does that matter?

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

Still waiting on the whole action is not necessarily dynamic thingy…

Still waiting on you to present any way to test your little theory. Still waiting on you to realize that the burden of proof rests with you, the one who wants everyone else to take this theory as true, and not with me.

It’s okay. You can’t. And it’s pretty obvious why you can’t…

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

What about cars with no clutch?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

The parking brake is on. Does that matter?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

The front bumper of the car is pressed right up against a steel fence. Does that matter?

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

“The bystander comes over upset, “stop making all this noise. I don’t want to hear about learning to get steak dinners, I want to talk about eating steak dinners with my friends. I already told you, just be a man and it’ll take care of itself. What’s so great about this guy anyway? He eats steak dinners like I do, he just makes a bigger deal about it.””

Good point. I am looking for actionable pointers.

Dynamic, Passionate, and Authentic isn’t even bad as abstract ideas go. It just isn’t going to help me without details.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

The rear wheels of the care are stuck down axle deep in mud. Does that matter?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

Someone fastened a tow chain to the back bumper and looped it around a power pole.
Does that matter?

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Scray You assert something that strains credulity – that action is not necessarily dynamic… refuse to back up your assertion – but then want to go over another thousands words? LOL You can stamp your foot and pout… doesn’t matter. [you’re] the one who wants everyone else to take this theory as true Not true! Take it or leave it is up to you… no skin off my back. Like I said, in a few years you will eventually look back and get it. [hint – look at the direction RSD is barreling in] Just trying to save you the… Read more »

Anders Munch
9 years ago

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-58824.html Civilization is on the Y-chromosome It’s super easy to prove, so easy I am to this day still a bit dumbfounded no one thought of it before me. Just ask 3,5 billion women with x-x chromosomes to build a house with everything installed without the help of men. And film them fail. Again and again. Women should not be allowed to vote or be journalists or politicians. They can’t help themselves, they always lie. Women have a higher verbal iq then men, they evolved that verbal iq to manipulate men, not to find solutions to actual problems. You have… Read more »

SFC Ton
9 years ago

The horsey set makes the golf dudes look like panhandling hobos. It’s unfucking real. And I was the chump who had it spelled out to him

We don’t have much in the way of millennials. Lestwise not the hipster type but we are out front on local beers and wine.

We get a fair amount of down to earth old money through the doors. Older men/ couples who come to talk about bikes, fishing, football etc. Low brow shit from their youth

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

By the way, Dynamic, Passionate and Authentic may or may not be neessary, but they are not sufficient, for obvious reasons.

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

using a word with several senses that together encompass pretty much anything allows for endless equivocating

Would “spiritual” be one of those words?

http://i.quoteaddicts.com/media/q3/1538020.png

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

How can I field test my “spiritual side”?

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Would “spiritual” be one of those words?

How about “alpha”?

SFC Ton
9 years ago

Up scale…. one of the places in town has a beef agent. His whole job is finding the best aged beef for the restaurant. I’ve had car payments cost less then some of the meals around here

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
9 years ago

Just take your foot off the clutch and the car will go.

All four tires are flat and the rims are on the ground. Does this matter?

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

“How can I field test my “spiritual side”?”

Who are you?

having a bad day
having a bad day
9 years ago

@Rollo from the last thread… @Platinum, you’re right. I’m just gonna do TRM and Rollo Tomassi from here on out. It’s helped millions of guys thus far and saved countless lives, so carry on. thank you for coming back to yourself… Meanwhile, I’m getting accused of ‘truthful anger’ from RSD Luke for at all revealing the realities of the SMP and the FI, and that doesn’t play well with the Zig Ziglar/Norman Vincent Peale/Tony Robbins vibe RSD is piling on recently. i saw that talking point from luke… what i got out of it, was that he was BP status… Read more »

sfer
sfer
9 years ago

“How can I field test my “spiritual side”?”

A bunch of those RSD guys meditate. Mainly because they rev themselves up into a manic state by going out.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

” . . . a favorite OMG ‘tactic.’”

I am not an OMG. I am an OG in the field getting hit on by slender, attractive teenage girls.

“I just did that and nothing happened. Of course the engine wasn’t running. Does that matter?”

Insert “standard conditions.”

“What about cars with no clutch?”

It did occur to me after posting that many men under 30 may be thinking, “Dude, what the hell is a clutch?”

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
9 years ago

“But whenever you get around to getting me a clear how-to on your concept, I’ll go test it and we’ll see if it holds up” Where is the full path to daylight? PUA? Yes! Partially, only in the short term. For the BP newbie this mentality exchanges one master, FI to another, PUA. To portray ostensible reality thus strangles self determination in the crib. IDK, maybe it’s the first step for some. TRM has saved lives through faith in free will, hope and the desire to connect with others, not virtually, but with meat humans. Not “mini-Rollos” or truncated free… Read more »

scray
scray
9 years ago

@sentient

You assert something that strains credulity – that action is not necessarily dynamic

I did back it up. L2Read:

Hint: using a word with several senses that together encompass pretty much anything allows for endless equivocating — a favorite OMG ‘tactic.’

Not true! Take it or leave it is up to you

Okay so you’re just KJ’ing without any real regard or concern to testing whether it’s true. Thanks for the clarification.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo

Does Owen also have vids giving SPECIFIC instructions on how to implement the mindsets he espouses?

Oh shit, it’s almost as if you’re just quote-mining and not really trying to figure out the differences between RSD and the other people you’re quote-mining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFiedCDpAK8

wow, they say the NUMBER ONE THING TO DO IS TO TAKE ACTION

above.

all.

else.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@Ehn Where is the full path to daylight? PUA? Yes! Partially, only in the short term. based on what, exactly? this is just a gay assertion that people make over and over again because, as HABD nails it: i think this attitude happens (and quite frequently too) when puas see pick up as something just YSG do… (like it’s a cool skill but doesn’t really apply to the ‘real world’… kind of a form of ‘pua only works on those bar sluts’ idea…lol) and then when you ‘grow up’ you have to transition to being ‘not that’… (to get that… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  scray

Just turn the TV on, never mind how it works

newlyaloof
9 years ago

@Rollo, yeah, I’ll try again without the link. Was responding to EhIntellect

Told him, I wish I knew two things (besides this site) when I was his son’s age:
1. Red Pill Room’s – Red Pill Primer For Boys
2. Sex God Method pdf (google it)

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo

hey, how can you figure out how a TV works if you’ve never seen one before?

a) turn it on and mess with it and through trial and error, arriving at testable hypotheses about the TV that, when tested, will further refine knowledge of the TV.
b) make up a bunch of abstract bullshit about TV’s and ignore whether or not they correspond to how the TV works and any method of testing the bullshit.

ya…
“just turn it on” is the correct answer 🙂

SJF
SJF
9 years ago

@sfcTon In regards to female employees. I’m sure you see them making excuses for their behavior in the same vein as the original post. Women collectively play off their male bosses when those bosses aren’t on the same page. I took over a business that was started in the 70’s. I bought into partnership 20 years ago and the only original partner was bought out 15 years ago. He was an odd character (with me being inscrutable) and the girls would never behave in the office with differing opinions from me and the partner. Nine female employees (no males). When… Read more »

theasdgamer
9 years ago

I mostly definitely want to replace the waitstaff with ipads

Hi there, darlin’, your screen looks especially lovely tonight.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“PUA isn’t a “phase.” ”

The opposite of dynamic is static.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“Hi there, darlin’, your screen looks especially lovely tonight.”

Even the courts in today’s climate have ruled that Hooters does not sexually discriminate, because being a hot chick in a skimpy outfit is a necessary part of the job of moving beer.

newlyaloof
9 years ago

Damn, man! These past few months reading the TRM comments has sadly reminded me of something – my wife and I arguing at home with the kids pleading with us to stop fighting. I may win this nuance in that argument with her, and she may win this nuance in that argument with me, but the kids lose in every instance. This really sucks.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@kfg

The opposite of dynamic is static.

comment image

Because the hint wasn’t enough…

if all action is dynamic then everything in the universe is dynamic meaning that every man is dynamic meaning that 1/3 of DPA is completely irrelevant, redundant, and meaningless — but it’s in good company, because the remaining 2/3 suffer the same defects.

theasdgamer
9 years ago

@scray Where is the full path to daylight? PUA? Yes! Partially, only in the short term. based on what, exactly? this is just a gay assertion that people make over and over again because, as HABD nails it: i think this attitude happens (and quite frequently too) when puas see pick up as something just YSG do… (like it’s a cool skill but doesn’t really apply to the ‘real world’… kind of a form of ‘pua only works on those bar sluts’ idea…lol) and then when you ‘grow up’ you have to transition to being ‘not that’… (to get that… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
9 years ago

String Theory is a fascinating aspect of modern theoretical physics, but it’s mostly regarded as useless since it gives very few disprovable hypotheses. Empiricists find theorists maddening for reasons like that. I think the value I’ve found in a lot of Rollo’s writing has been that it’s theory with disprovable assertions that I can test. Hypergamy, dread, and the like all stand up to field testing and therefore provide value to the empiricists in the PUA/YSG community. The frustration with OMG arises when their statements clash with well proven and tested concepts (which we all agree are true, mind you).… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

NUMBER ONE THING TO DO IS TO TAKE ACTION

he he he…. That old bugaboo again? Just don’t take that not necessarily dynamic action…

http://itsyourbrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/rubber-ritchie-450×315.jpg

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

It’s almost as though “RSD is a cult” is a cult… Yup. @Rollo @blax @sentient @ton @anti-rsd guys So firstly about the spiritual whoo whoo side of RSD…who gives a shit The reason they get linked here so often is they have excellent FREE videos demonstrating key PUA concepts. For that cold approach article that rollo linked that was COMPLETELY off the mark, the video of Tyler pulling a girl OUT of a taxi and then having her DTF in like 30 seconds COMPLETELY disproves that article…and it does so in about 30 seconds. You can’t really top that. James… Read more »

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

“if all action is dynamic then everything in the universe is dynamic meaning that every man is dynamic meaning that 1/3 of DPA is completely irrelevant, redundant, and meaningless — but it’s in good company, because the remaining 2/3 suffer the same defects.”

lol. It’s like something I’d put on my resume. Dynamic, Passionate, and Authentic!

theasdgamer
9 years ago

String Theory is a fascinating aspect of modern theoretical physics, but it’s mostly regarded as useless since it gives very few disprovable hypotheses.

…giving it great explanatory power. 😉

MrT
MrT
9 years ago

I wonder if the rsd cult thingy happened because of the deep conversion altercation. Just because Tyler uses less confusing nomenclature doesnt mean everything he says is automatically right (oddly enough guys here accusing others of dogmatically following RSD would wish guys we were not questioning their ideas). I judge his ideas by themselves, not judge himself overall and then apply that to all his ideas. Just like I didnt throw Rollos ideas out of the window and stop showing TRM to guys because I witnessed Rollos tirade in the looks debate. I think mosty guys here (the rsd cultists)… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
9 years ago

Red Pill Room’s – Red Pill Primer For Boys

They got it a couple months back, I thought it wonderfully direct.

Perusing the sgm.pdf now.

Again thanks all!

Sentient
Sentient
9 years ago

Andy

lol. It’s like something I’d put on my resume. Dynamic, Passionate, and Authentic!

Who won’t need to once you get there… which is the point of all of this…

scray
scray
9 years ago

@theasd explaining everything and predicting nothing = useless. cookies low enough for you, yet? I laid down a very simple gauntlet: PROVIDE TESTABLE, ACTIONABLE INFORMATION RELATED TO YOUR ABSTRACT CONCEPTS. And I watched all of you scatter when the light fell down. Why? Because you can’t. Which is cool. Stay on the sidelines and KJ. But with the FI pressing hard and dudes struggling to find real positive masculinity tips that work out there in the field, you guys just come off like Ike Clanton at 1:50 https://youtu.be/FRiWAxMMX5o?t=105 you have some info to actually help out there, cool. if not,… Read more »

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

” . . . if all action is dynamic then everything in the universe is dynamic . . .” At the heat death of the universe there will still be internal motion of atoms – it just won’t “do” anything. I can tell you are going through a phase, because you are not actually dead yet. I have been through a shit ton of phases, which makes it easier to recognize them as phases before the fact. I have at minimum one more phase to go through yet. Part of the phase of being a 16 year old girl is… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago

Damn, the car wont start.

Did you turn the key in the ignition?

Yeah, but it wont work.

What do you think is wrong?

I dunno, who cares, it wont work.

Did you put gas in it?

What’s gas? You just turn the key and it goes.

Did you look under the hood?

Nah bro, that’s wasting time, I’ll just buy a new car.

hank holiday
hank holiday
9 years ago

This from Pellaeon is great: Where Sentient fails and YaReally succeeds is that when someone challenges YaReally on his advice, he goes and finds three different examples that demonstrate his point, and he continues to rephrase his arguments until he finds the right language that resonates with the reference experiences of the person he’s trying to convince. Sentient, from what I’ve seen of his posts recently, tends to double down on using the exact same language over and over, expecting that his passion will do the work of transferring his reference experiences, rather than experimenting with how to convey them… Read more »

scray
scray
9 years ago

@kfg The word -is- as in, everything in the Universe -is- dynamic, denotes the present tense, rendering your silliness about a future time period “heat death” completely irrelevant because a) bajillion years into the future b) without humans, but hey that’s not surprising — look who’s doing the talking! But hey why stop there, because even under your own asinine paradigm, “internal motion” would still be dynamic in the broadest sense of the word, so your profundity remains of the shoe in mouth kind even accepting the first part of it as in anyway relevant But why stop there! we… Read more »

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

“The OMGs are most right and really PUA Game isn’t all that special…”

First the mountain is just a mountain. Then the mountain is more than just a mountain. Then the mountain is just a mountain again. If you ain’t dead yet, it’s all phases.

“It’s like something I’d put on my resume.”

I don’t write resumes. I’m busy trying to mind my own business while other people are trying to draft me to mind theirs.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

” . . . a) bajillion years into the future b) without humans . . .”

Test and show me.

scray
scray
9 years ago

@rollo

Oh look strawmanning that is obvious and graceless

1: Hey the car won’t start

2: Did you pray to Quetzalcoatl?

1: What?

2: The mesoamerican god of cars, obviously

1: That starts the car

2: YES!

1: How?

2: OH MY GOD, IF YOU CAN’T THINK ABSTRACTLY…..

comment image

scray
scray
9 years ago

@kfg

Oh cool, so you concede that you’re just putting up something that’s untestable up — see, you’re the one who brought up the concept, meaning that if you have a problem with how the concept works, then lol, your whole point is undone anyway. Don’t matter either way to moi.

Lol you need these OMGs because anyone with a modicum of chops can see right past your nonsense….

Rollo Tomassi
9 years ago
Reply to  scray

Hey brah, maybe there’s more to this PUA stuff than just running sets?
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Aint-Nobody-Got-Time-for-That.gif

theasdgamer
9 years ago

@scray with his reading comprehension issues…lol…don’t get butthurt 😉 explaining everything and predicting nothing = useless. …that was my point 😉 Remember, I have a degree in physics and I have also studied philosophy of science on my own. cookies low enough for you, yet? Nope. Move them to a lower shelf. “PROVIDE TESTABLE, ACTIONABLE INFORMATION RELATED TO YOUR ABSTRACT CONCEPTS.” I was explaining YOUR side to other OGs…you missed that. If a girl acts bored, she needs drama…if she is treating you like a bff, she needs tingles…if she acts fidgety/scrayed (heh), she needs comfort…if she acts insecure, she… Read more »

theasdgamer
9 years ago

@kfg

” . . . a) bajillion years into the future b) without humans . . .”
Test and show me.

I have a computer simulation running a bajillion years into the future…

scray
scray
9 years ago

@theasd it was unclear to me whether you were disagreeing or agreeing or clarifying or criticizing. Thanks for clarifying and my mistake. I guess you think this isn’t actionable. Not really. Actionable would be — how to give her tingles, how to give her comfort, etc. What you said is just an intermediate step between abstract and concrete. Of course, I do have an abstract principle —> You need a mix of alpha and beta traits to secure any kind of relationship with a woman. If you desire short term sex or sex quickly, you need to have a balance… Read more »

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