Softek has had the almost predictable move for The Talk from his current (I believe BPD) “girlfriend”. Just to clarify a few things here before I dig into Softek’s questions I think it’s necessary to define what “The Talk” is. Generally, there comes a point with a particular plate you’re spinning when a woman believe it’s within her feminine entitlements to force the issue of exclusivity upon a man. I’ve written several foundational posts about non-exclusivity and the reasons men should opt for (Plate Theory) and I’ve also covered The Talk from practical considerations in Ultimatums, but feminized pop-culture has made what essentially amounts to a Frame shift into a life event.
The Talk is literally the defining of a relationship, and in a feminine-primary social order that defining power is presumed to always reside with a woman according to her “needs”. I should also add here that as men have become more feminized and uncomfortable in describing themselves as masculine, the feminine security need for a confirmed relationship status puts these men into the feminine role of initiating The Talk themselves. There are few grosser indications of a Beta / Blue Pill mental point of origin and a self-confirming lack of options than a man negotiating for exclusivity by formalizing it with a feminized relationship event.
What does Negotiated Desire mean for a relationship when a woman has resorted to it?
They’re powerless, yes, they feel helpless, yes.
But what does this mean for their perception of the man they’re trying to Negotiate for?
Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness. Let me be clear before I get the standard, “you need to be a Man and set boundaries with her” retort – as with all things for men, it is better to demonstrate than to explicate.
However, in this instance, we have a woman issuing the ultimatum and the sense of powerlessness comes into contrast. The very act of having The Talk is a negotiation of desire. The medium is the message. We can separate a woman’s entitlement to an “official” relationship with it, but the fact that a formal talk would be necessary to legitimize it is the message she ignores or hopes you won’t recognize – it’s a negotiated obligation, not a genuine desire.
Making a euphemism out of this ultimatum by calling The Talk and dancing around the want for a long term security is a form of Buffer for women. And as with all Buffers, the intent is to lessen the impact of rejection by preemptively buffering the seriousness of it should it come to that.
There are a few reasons women will move for something like The Talk. First and foremost is the Hypergamic need for certainty. When a woman presses for exclusivity with a man she tips her hand in the Hypergamic scheme of things. In this instance the root message is twofold – she perceives you as high enough value to seek some kind of exclusive permanency and / or she acknowledges (or is beginning to) that her capacity to attract other prospective men is depreciating. Women with greater sexual market options and a commensurate self-impression rarely push for this relationship formality.
Another reason for The Talk is that women, on some level of consciousness, seek to alleviate the competition anxiety that comes with making an emotional investment in a man she perceives is 1-2 steps above her own sexual market value. A passive form of Dread almost certainly plays a role in the prompt to formalize an LTR, however, what’s prompting that Dread can range from an emotional investment based on a genuine desire to the pragmatic necessity to settle on a guy who meets her security needs in contrast to her ability to attract a better prospect.
As women enter the Epiphany Phase the need for a Talk becomes more urgent. As a woman’s attractiveness wanes Hypergamy cannot afford uncertainty or the risk of a loss of emotional investment. This is yet one more reason women tend to opt for dutiful Betas during the Epiphany Phase. Unattached higher SMV men entering their peak SMV phase are less inclined to look for or agree to, exclusivity when they have more available sexual options. Blue Pill men, unused to a sudden interest from women, are usually eager to formalize on exclusivity irrespective of a woman’s sexual history or her necessitous reasonings for exclusivity.
Have they lost respect for him? What is Negotiated Desire, on the woman’s part, indicative of in the relationship?
Again, this is somewhat subjective and depends on the man and woman’s conditions. As I mentioned above, the push for exclusivity on her part is prompted from necessity or Hypergamous anxiety. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated and it’s important to consider that this is equally true when it’s women doing the negotiating. Blue Pill conditioning has acculturated generations of women to expect that a man formalizing monogamy with her is not just her right, but that men will understand and accept that it is “the right thing to do” if he want’s to be accounted as a man.
We have an entire fem-centric world of women and men reinforcing this male-shame narrative in every branch of society – from church to popular media, you’re not a “man” if you so much as question your role in an exclusivity founded on a woman’s correct need of it.
This presents an interesting conflict for women. Women want men who just get it, but the necessity of petitioning a man for The Talk in the first place conflicts with the organicness of his understanding of women. Pushy, loud-mouthed, outspoken women raised on the Fempowerment narrative are often the most insecure in respect to this conflict. On one hand the narrative has bred her to expect a man to be her-equal-who’s-better-than-her-equal and ‘man up’ and formalize on his own. On the other hand, when he doesn’t, the anxiety that comes with the countdown to her Wall pushes her to force his compliance or to provide her own security for herself.
Now imagine this scenario with an Empowered Woman® dealing with the Beta in Waiting who represents her only viable LTR option. Yes, she may have lost respect for him, but her situation frustratingly compels her to force the issue of exclusivity with a guy who doesn’t get it.
Is it a sign of a failed relationship?
I don’t have any other experience, so my base assumption is that ALL WOMEN will push for commitment eventually, and want to pressure you into it, and ‘make things official.’
What does this mean for the health of the relationship?
Should it just end?
The necessity of a Talk in the first place puts this assessment into doubt. Women who don’t eventually push for commitment understand the nature of that relationship is temporary or there really is no potential, so there won’t be a Talk. The problem I see with making this formality something overtly public is that it has the opposite effect of qualifying what may be genuine desire without it. When The Talk enters into out popular consciousness it then becomes yet another ‘typical male’ fault.
Men become infantilized for not understanding women’s correctness in wanting a formalized declaration of monogamy. Once that infantilization becomes the accepted truism for women, what might’ve been a very good pairing of a man and a woman based on an organic genuine desire, turns into an obligation on his part to convince her that he’s not a child by living above that truism. The relationship becomes less about the genuine interest between the two and more about satisfying the “official” nature of it among men and women plugged into a Blue Pill social conditioning.
Should it just end at that point? If a man’s first act of a coerced monogamy is his capitulating to what amounts to a socially mandated ultimatum I think the woman he surrendered to will subconsciously lose the respect she had for him while they were “undocumented lovers.”
In a case like Rollo’s, or any other married guy here:
How did it happen? How do you get married without Negotiated Desire?
Is it IMPOSSIBLE, and it’s just a matter of minimizing the degree of Negotiation?
Same with having an official girlfriend. When you COMMIT even on the level of a ‘steady girlfriend,’ isn’t that Negotiating Desire by default?
I get this question a lot and for a lot of hard-line guys, even the best thing a married man (or LTR man) can say will always sound like he found a unicorn. You have to understand in my case the last woman I’d been in a formal LTR with before my wife was the BPD I described in the Two Guitars post. I had no intention of getting into an LTR at the time and for a long while, Mrs. Tomassi was one of four plates I was spinning at the time. All of this was above board and we dated non-exclusively for the first 3-4 months.
I began with a rock solid Frame at this time not because I was focused on establishing it, but because I had three other women in rotation and I was entirely indifferent to any idea of exclusivity with any of them. Of those four, Mrs. T was hottest and funnest in and out of bed so I gravitated to seeing her more regularly. I also appreciated her from the new perspective I had in contrast to the psychotic mess my BPD had been. She expected me to be conventionally masculine and I was already filling that role by default because I had a new outlook on women as a result of all that.
We never had a Talk when it came to exclusivity; she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend. She literally asked to be part of my world during that brief conversation. I’ve had the Frame from the moment we started non-exclusively to where we are now 20 years later.
I’ll say it again, don’t use my example as some model for your own life, but there needs to be an organic flow to how you enter into any LTR.
It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized. As I stated in the beginning, frame will be fluid and conditions will influence the balance, but the overall theme of your relationship needs to be led and molded by you. Even very influential, professional, intellectualizing women still crave the right man to establish his frame in her life. They may fight it bitterly, but ultimately it’s what will make for the best healthy balance she can achieve. There’s a growing undercurrent of mid-life women questioning and regretting their past decisions to remain single into spinsterhood. And for all their late game rationalizations, the one thing they still simply refuse to accept is acknowledging that a man’s frame, the frame their “fierce independence” wouldn’t allow for, was exactly the salve their egos so desperately wants now later in life.
Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.
@ Andy – ” Guys, thx for the reply. Just want to reiterate that I’m not attacking anyone, I’m just trying to understand where your mind is at. @Blaximus “I don’t miss the kind of sexual tension you mention. I am geared more towards true intimacy.” What IS this ethereal “intimacy” we speak of? Like can you explain what it is about it that you enjoy? To me it just seems like a flowery word for familiarity. In my marriage for example, I guess you could say we’re “intimate”. We’ve been together for a while. We see each other every… Read more »
@ Andy some more… ” Right. Like if what we’re seeing in that video is what Blax and SJF would call “intimacy”… I guess I still don’t get it. All I see in that video is burden. I get that there’s history, and all that. If keeping her happy, and managing her emotions for 50 years, and being invincible and the reward for all that is???? Still waiting on that one. Happy kids? I get to pat myself on the back for a job well done? Wife will occasionally tell me “You’re a good man.”? It’s not that hard once… Read more »
Smooth is fast.
“The thought that you have concerning ” I just don’t get how you can maintain that with someone that you see every day. ” is not one that I have. Personally, I remove the ” clutter ” kind of thoughts from my mind. They serve ZERO purpose. Just mental masturbation, which I am no big fan of.” “I don’t know if you and your wife are different people. What I do know is that you seem to think way too much. I don’t know if anyone is capable of explaining to you why you feel a certain way and I… Read more »
@ Blax
What IS this ethereal “intimacy” we speak of?
As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger when they were surrounded by hostile Indians, “What ‘we’ Kimosabe?”
Intimacy is reserved for BFF girlfriends. Leaders almost never are truly intimate with their underlings.
@HABD
(ya, i’m going to start pushing on you…bc you need it…)
Finally someone to help me with the heavy lifting. 😉 I’ve been on softek’s case for a while now. He needs to face reality and quit trying to pretend that the Matrix is real.
Andy – Have you sampled other fruit lately? And if not why not?
Andy – you said: “My position is… If I’m not trying to have everything, I’m not trying”. I’m reading along here and trying to understand what you are saying, but still not really getting it, other than you seem to be dissatisfied, but as to the source of your dissatisfaction, you seem to be unsure what it is – the dissatisfaction is nebulous, but you think some fine young pussy would perhaps fix that. Seems like you are sexually bored, maybe? So …. not a dead bedroom at all …. just not spicy enough? Is that what you meant by… Read more »
@Blaximus: what would you consider an healthy sex drive for a man?
Genuine questions. I don’t get to talk comfortably about this kind of stuff in “real life”.
Wanting it every 2 or 3 days? Every other day? In consecutive days? More than once a day in consecutive days?
Wanting to have “round 2” or even a “round 3”? Or more?
Having a low refractory period? Less than 30 min? Less than 15 min? Less than that?
HABD wrote: “you’re stuck with 18+ years of child support payments… and just for kicks, you can actually look up what it will cost you to make those payments. every state should have a list or income guidelines on it’s website that shows how much you will have to pay based on your income and number of kids (make sure you put in 2 kids… bc she could have twins…lol)… look it up…so, you at least know your risks involved ‘per bang’… lol… my guess is that it will make high end escorts look cheap…lol…” Ya man, go look that… Read more »
@ IAS That’s going to depend highly on the individual man, but imo, a guy should ” want ” sex daily, barring illness or highly stressful scenarios. Now whether it’s possible to get that sex daily, is another story. I always thought that maybe there was something wrong with me when I was younger, but I’ve since learned otherwise. TMI Dept: I usually can have sexual relations ( lol ) around 2-3 times a week, fairly regularly for 3 weeks out of a month. That’s all out, balls to the wall…lmao…. sexual contact. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Consecutive days happen,… Read more »
@blax
‘Now whether it’s possible to get that sex daily, is another story. I always thought that maybe there was something wrong with me when I was younger, but I’ve since learned otherwise.’
idk man when you’re out there tearing it up every day in front of them and every passing second is a second they are in full dread seeing how awesome you are, the sky’s the limit for freq of sex.
@ scray
” idk man when you’re out there tearing it up every day in front of them and every passing second is a second they are in full dread seeing how awesome you are, the sky’s the limit for freq of sex.”
Lol, true, but they are only flesh and bone.
@ scray You know, when I was much younger ( teens and early twenties ), I used to wake up every day scheming on getting pussy, like a drug addict schemes for dope. Lol. People close to me started telling me I had problems, that I was a male nymphomaniac (?) and I was like w/e. Today, in 2016, I’d be locked up for sexual assault. I’m positive. I have spoken more here about sexual things than I have with folks irl because I don’t think I had problems ( pussy on the brain ) and it didn’t affect my… Read more »
“idk man when you’re out there tearing it up every day in front of them and every passing second is a second they are in full dread seeing how awesome you are, the sky’s the limit for freq of sex.”
“Lol, true, but they are only flesh and bone.”
Like a bobcat pulling sharks.
http://17448-presscdn-0-12.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Photographer_No_Idea_Bobcat.jpg
“I’m reading along here and trying to understand what you are saying, but still not really getting it, other than you seem to be dissatisfied, but as to the source of your dissatisfaction, you seem to be unsure what it is” @man Not really dissatisfied. I think I might be rationalizing that. I guess most of it is just that I’ve “made it” according to society’s goals. And red pill married dude goals. So… Like SJF said… Two paths. One being put all that shit I’ve worked for at risk to keep growing and for the possibility of even higher… Read more »
@ Andy ” No. Just want to make sure that’s really the path I want to go down before I take that risk. Plus some FI stuff. Plus some insinuations that I should be content. So I’ve kind of been doing what I can without going there. It’s not even the hot young pusssaaaaaayyyyy. Just the journey I guess.” Lmao. Aaannndddyyyy!!!!!! You’re not as tortured or confused as I thought you were/sounded. You’re alright bro. Keep figuring it out, but don’t stress over it. In the end, you are a lot better off/ more fortunate than you know, and there’s… Read more »
“You know what you need in your life?
Rose Bushes.”
Haha. I actually have one. I have No Clue what I’m doing with it.
I think I’ve actually found my new hobby just now. Bob Ross is on Netflix. The game will have to wait.
“Have you sampled other fruit lately? And if not why not?” No. Just want to make sure that’s really the path I want to go down before I take that risk. Plus some FI stuff. Plus some insinuations that I should be content. So I’ve kind of been doing what I can without going there. It’s not even the hot young pusssaaaaaayyyyy. Just the journey I guess. Ever go fishing and enjoy catch and release? Try it, you’ll like it. The thing is Andy, spend time and away in married man game. Distance yourself and find yourself. I may have… Read more »
“I have No Clue what I’m doing with it.”
The thing I’ve lived my life by is never regretting the fact that I didn’t have a clue.
Always have a clue. Or buy a clue.
http://17448-presscdn-0-12.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Photographer_No_Idea_Smile.jpg
@YaReally: “so just like walawala’s BPD kept escalating things, Softeks will too,” A few BPD escalation examples related to “The Talk”….they tend to push for the kind of closeness they know you’ll reject so they can then use that against you. We had been banging for 2 months solid…she was telling me she loved me, texting 20 times a day when one day she suddenly said: “If our relationship gets more serious i’ll go on the pill..” “More serious?” how could it get more serious than it already was? Next was when she texted me that her crazy mom had… Read more »
Andy – “Just want to make sure that’s really the path I want to go down before I take that risk.”
If you view it as a risk, you shouldn’t do it. A mindset of fear is telling. It’s not an abundance mindset.
“Just the journey I guess.”
Your call, journey or stay home. No one can give you an answer, you need to explore it for yourself, or not.
http://www.hotel-r.net/im/hotel/es/magellan-20.gif
Mea Culpa: I’m going to apologize for mentioning my monogamy in the past. (But I reserve the right to mention it often in the future>) I think it is a non-issue for The Rational Male blog and my reasons for including it in my posts before include ego-investments (really good solid ego-investments) and stupid bragging rights. Whatever they may be. My wife is hot and good. Sue me. Every man is different and needs to define himself and his mission in life. The reason I am stating this is that I think I made it an issue, when it is… Read more »
@ Andy
Kill 2 birds with 1 stone…
http://grignonsart.com/images/artsupplyimages/rossimages/rossdvdimages/rakw2d-dsc3533lg.jpg
@culum @yareally @quixotic @habd @forge Brief FR Went back to city I have had trouble with. Was very tired. Went to a bar. Talked with girl I sat next to. Ends up an asian, but like a 5. Nothing special. She leaves shorty after. Then another girl comes up to me and we chat. Definite interest in me because at one point she left, then came back and kind of awkwardly leaned against the bar “they took my chair” and we talked a bit more before she left again. Just shooting she shit. Again, was tired so had difficulty in… Read more »
Andy and the rose bush: “I have No Clue what I’m doing with it.” When I was a young lad, my Mom tried to get me interested in house-plants and gardening and garden vegetables. I protested on the house plants: “they are boring because they grow too slow”. But she was a nice Mom and it kind of seeped into my pores and I took up horticulture and came to see what Mother Nature was like. I planted a garden on rented soil while in my professional school. And that was cool. I had a 50 X 50 plot for… Read more »
@Andy
once again my boys phineas and ferb deliver… lol
lots of answers to your questions about life (and game…) right here…lol (all on the RP subcomms channel…lol)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SVz6iUV5Z7o
like I always say… having fun is vastly underrated… lol… (it’ll never hurt you to get up and shake it out… lol)
good luck!
@ Fleezer To this day I fucking hate “eat your greens”. I hate green vegetables because my parents forced them on me when I was young. You know because it was the right thing to do. A nonsensical bias on my part. I didn’t want to follow the path of the elders. Like you know we tell Softek: “This is the right thing to do”. And he hesitates or pukes or fucks his girlfriend again. Because he doesn’t like to eat the vegetables in life. Acknowledge the work of the elders. Some have been there before. That is why the… Read more »
Scray – if you are around , I would be interested to know, from your perspective, you know – with a mindset of female sexual abundance firmly entrenched in your experience, but with you recognizing women have adult-human-sized agency, are you locking down multiple women at one time?, Do they all focus their desire just on you?, If so do you require it that way – like would you next them if this was not on? If so why would you next them?, Or do you simply not care who they may otherwise be fucking? So it is more or… Read more »
@Andy
You r a fucking lol MACHINE. Seriously though, thx.
You DO know that HABD is gay, right? Married to another man.
Lol, jk.
@hank holiday – just glanced at latest FR. Good work on the opening and conversations and getting out there – even if it wasn’t a great day, it’s good to stay in the habit and get out there.
Only real comment: why didn’t you try to close the Asian 5? It’s good practice even if you don’t want to bang her, plus it’s useful for social circle purposes – she may have friends who are Asian 7s and 8s you know..
@Blaximus “Who told you that life is supposed to be filled with reward?” Why shouldn’t it be? Or why shouldn’t we chase that outcome? I mean, why voluntarily suffer? If you can get the rewards you want and there’s no real negative conseqeunces to it, then why is it such a ridiculous idea? (hint: social conditioning that we should feel guilty for indulging in pleasure lol) “Whoever told you that, they LIED to you man.” Sure, it doesn’t always work out that you get rewards, but why not try to steer your life towards one that constantly rewards you? I… Read more »
YaReally Sentient HABD, Walawala and the usual gang Quick FR update after the two week May/June blitz I’ve been pretty successful in terms of dates and sex – two lays including the epic 20 min lay which I’m super happy about. 5-6 first dates online. Much improved sexualising skills – esp laser and cutting distance and overt sexualization at start – taking her hand, pulling in for hug to see if she shoves her tits into me, stroking ass and commenting on it in the first 3-5 minutes, etc. But that’s no longer my sticking point and hasn’t been for… Read more »
YaReally and gang: two mini-FRs of online dates in the last week – I think I have a decent idea of what the problem was in both, but they both have some interesting features: 1. SECOND date with 30 year old blonde HB7 – I posted an FR about my first date with her a couple weeks ago – good chemistry attraction and sexualization and I managed to get her into isolation in the restroom corridor for a makeout but couldn’t get her into the restroom for the BJ, so I knew there could be ASD problems. PS – Didn’t… Read more »
Older woman/younger man relationships are always run by the woman. Extricate and avoid. Now, my idea of frame is commitment from the get go. What self-respecting man is dating a girl who is also dating other men? A woman doesn’t “like” the idea of you banging other girls? That’s a pretty liberal viewpoint. How bout I’d fucking kill her. M’kay? You’re not the “prize” because you’re dating other women. You’re the prize because you aren’t. In fact, I highly recommend you tell every person you know how much you hate women. It has a way of selecting the wheat from… Read more »
@hank holiday props on getting out the door…and putting in the effort when you’re tired… especially solo… that’s some good dedication there… and it might not seem like a success, but all those reference experiences eventually aggregate into awesomeness…lol… AND props on bailing when you recognized that you were too tired. that might seem like a contradiction but it’s not. after you actually get out the door and honestly try, if it’s not going well, if you are not specifically working through a sticking point, it’s often better to not reinforce a negative experience… +1 on the social circle idea…… Read more »
“No one can seem to describe what the magic “intimacy” we’re missing out on is” I can. 1. inside jokes – sometimes all it takes is a look, or a single word and we’re laughing our asses off. I would say my wife has the best overall grasp of my sense of humor of anyone I know. this took many years to develop but some of the jokes go back to the days when we first met. laughter is a great stress-reliever and it keeps things light and fun 2. creativity – word games, drawing cartoons, poetry is something we’ve… Read more »
@ freezer
Man, that was awesome.
Thank you for that.
I meant @ fleezer. Damn spellcheck…..
@fleezer
Good points. It’s easy to take that stuff for granted.
@Culum Props on the efforts. Now, you have to stop dumpster diving and start setting some boundaries for yourself. I’m now sorting things out with my plates. One is giving me drama so I just stop engaging. Another I was gaming flaked. In the past I would have tried to set something up again. Now I just went silent. Saw her out the other day and ignored her. Another is planning to come out to the city next weekend. So if you have a decent rotation you can avoid dumpster diving and focus on finding the kinds of girls you… Read more »
@fleezer http://cdn-9chat-fun.9cache.com/media/photo/amzdLvl91_480w_v1.jpg No time to read it yet but skimming it that’s exactly the kind of reply I was looking for, so thanks. Like NOW there’s something to actually discuss and quantify and contrast in various forms of relationships etc, instead of this woowoo “we just know eachother’s SOUL and that makes everything magical” feel-good bullshit lol Now we can say “okay well what degree do I or can I have these things in a different type of relationship? And if there’s something lacking, is there a way to increase it? And which of those things do I, as an… Read more »
@fleezer
Monogamy is not required for any of those points though. And if I’ve been following the conversation correctly, blaximus and sjf said intimacy is a benefit of monogamy, Andy asked for a definition of that intimacy.
Also, many of those points can be had with friends and family. None are limited to man-woman relationships, whether monogamous or not.
“Also, many of those points can be had with friends and family.”
Or dog/cat/goldfish/rose bush.
Not having a woman does not mean being alone. The idea that it does is another point of FI propaganda.
@walawala,culum
So if you have a decent rotation you can avoid dumpster diving and focus on finding the kinds of girls you enjoy spending time with
virtual abundance
Culum should already assume he has a decent rotation as he will get it following his current approach (pun intended). Thus he should ask himself, if I had three plates would I be wasting my time on this particular cunt, and would I consider possibly adding her to rotation?
Culum/HABD
your time would have been better spent doing cold approach at the local bookstore/mall… not kidding
Indeed… dumpster diving a mid 40’s 5…? Why oh why?
“bar slut”…. or LA Model who is into Virgil, St Thomas Aquinas and Plato…?
https://youtu.be/HWY5Z69ckSY
Well I have to jump in here. (I still haven’t answered Andy’s questions and I intend to when can get to it). I’m not trying to throw a monkey wrench into the conversation. I’m just being honest. And trying to not concede things I don’t find true. And excuse the lack of coherent paragraphs, typing this at lunch). Keep in mind that either I am inscrutable or it’s just that I can’t express myself well. I don’t like what might be described as “intimacy”. I have no need for it. I don’t actually have or crave any of those things… Read more »
Fleezer – nice list. #5 – trust is the very, very most important key element. I have had the pleasure of experiencing all the other elements you speak of (even outside of sexual relationships), but …. the depth of any relationship comes down to #5. And #5 ……., at the deepest levels – it is perhaps insurmountable. I think the most basic script is self-preservation, key to all of life, life can’t exist without this base script operating. But it is wrong to ask someone to trust, at the level of asking them to pick “you” over “themselves”. Wrong. Fucked… Read more »
@theman ” but with you recognizing women have adult-human-sized agency, are you locking down multiple women at one time?, Do they all focus their desire just on you?, If so do you require it that way – like would you next them if this was not on? If so why would you next them?, Or do you simply not care who they may otherwise be fucking? So it is more or less fuck buddies then?” Yes, I’m with multiple women at one time. For the most part they focus their desire on just me….but, and I’ve struggled with this, ultimately,… Read more »
“Paradoxically, I feel less constrained when I don’t have to chase pussy outside my own home.”
Well, I guess we can just conclude that every man is different and has different needs/desires/experiences and those shape our preferences on what kind of relationships we want. So we probably shouldn’t judge each other, but at the same time we should make sure we’re making those decisions free of social conditioning… Unless that person is a natural in which case they don’t need help anyway. lol.
I concur Andy.
“…we should make sure we’re making those decisions free of social conditioning… ” Just like there are good positive ego investments, (not just negative ego investments), not all social conditioning is bad. (some actually prevents anarchy) The FI social conventions and FI social conditioning in order to advance their sexual strategy is bad when it weakens or attempts to destroy the Masculine Imperative sexual strategy. (in order for one to succeed the other must fail). As an example: I was socially conditioned from 1970 to 1990 to get married. I don’t know anyone growing up in grade school, high school… Read more »
@SJF ‘Just like there are good positive ego investments, (not just negative ego investments), not all social conditioning is bad. (some actually prevents anarchy)’ i agree with you re: social conditioning. usually, the more local the circumstances, the better fit the social conditioning is, i.e. social norms that come from like your own group are probably better for you than social norms that come from idk…..overrarching ‘society’ that spans thousands of miles. however, i mean, anarchy (in sense of absence of gov’t) is w/e to me. without gov’t you’d still have a lot of social conditioning. that mostly comes from… Read more »
“Monogamy is not required for any of those points though.” monogamy for her, which is what I advocate, is required to get the most out of her “Also, many of those points can be had with friends and family.” true. but it’s not the same. 1. inside jokes – many of these are sexual in nature. for example, she came home for lunch the other day. I was fucking her in the dining room and just as I was about to cum her necklace broke. she moved to catch the small beads and I slipped out and shot my wad… Read more »
@fleezer The discussion was about intimacy as the reward for MAN’s monogamy, not the woman’s. Many of your follow-ups focus on the woman’s, regardless thanks for the follow-ups as I don’t disagree with any of them. But a few of your explanations came down to the fact that you FUCK your wife, not your friends or family. This is the only distinction in my mind that matters: the sex IS the ‘intimacy’ the married men here are floating around. I agree that trust is a big part of it, being naked in front of someone, getting fucked by someone obviously… Read more »
@culum @yareally @habd asian 5 i only talked to for maybe a minute before she left. AFTER that there was a white 5 who come up to me and we started talking (where I wrote “Then another girl comes up to me and we chat.”). That whole interaction was with the white 5. stil could have grabbed number, just say i had to go or something bout meeting her next time they had the trivia event and be on the same team w/e. I just wasn’t really feeling it and like I said I don’t have a lot of routines… Read more »
“The discussion was about intimacy as the reward for MAN’s monogamy, not the woman’s.”
I miss stuff. I should probably read more closely if I’m going to participate.
to me, intimacy is the reward for a man’s investment, not his monogamy.
” the sex IS the ‘intimacy’ the married men here are floating around.”
I think sex is one gateway through which deep intimacy can flow and certain levels of intimacy can be reached only by going through it
@fleezer awesome list!…thanks… good luck! ———— @Sentient Culum/HABD your time would have been better spent doing cold approach at the local bookstore/mall… not kidding Indeed… dumpster diving a mid 40’s 5…? Why oh why? it’s worse than that… Culum didn’t even get a bang out of it…lol… good luck! —————- @hank props on getting in-field… stil could have grabbed number,… I don’t have a lot of routines or reference experiences that I can just go on autopilot on. those reference experiences don’t just magically appear in your memories…lol… ask for the number anyway (tired or not…)… you don’t have to… Read more »
@fleezer
pretty much everything you listed you can have i have and get from mLTRs.
and it’s all pretty much created by the man, so i fail to see how it’s a reward for anything
this is why chasing after superlatives from a woman is pretty much meaningless, because anything can be anything given the right state of mind.
Totally agree on the reasons listed regarding why women initiate The Talk. One additional reason I would also add, is that the vast majority of women are Spinning Plates as well. It should be no secret that even the most average of women have a surplus of orbiters, in comparison to the average Man. Having The Talk will allow a woman to make a decision on whether or not to continue in the current relationship, or quickly Monkey Branch to the next best option/beta orbiter in waiting. In this case, The Talk serves the purpose of minimizing the wasting of… Read more »
Scray – thanks for getting back and taking the time to answer my questions: I’ll just clarify some things, and then at the end of my comments here I do have some more questions for you: “you need to do a lot of self-work and find yourself as a man — shit, as a person. once you realize that you, on your terms, are worth a lot, then you can start viewing women in a healthy light and relating to them and just accepting the world as it is..” Yes … I think you mean this is the case for… Read more »
“that the vast majority of women are Spinning Plates as well”
As Rollo described in his Plate Theory LXIV (or was it V, these Roman numerals are confusing), this is not plates as in banging guys, it is getting attention, sex, and resources as they selectively wish from a bunch of guys
OK, every time someone talks about women having “The Talk” I can’t stop thinking about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPTO5T2Epgw
warning- this video will take your Oycome Independence to unreasonable heights. Ever after you will laugh out loud when a chick tries “The Talk” (well , even if it’s “The Commitment Talk” and not “The I’ve Met Someone Else Talk”) Both side of the hypergamy coin, LOL
@culum @yareally @habd Didn’t get to go to the city I’ve been trying to move too. Still have to plan a bit more for the trip. Half the time I’m away that day will just be driving. Tried to go out a bit today, but wasn’t really sure where to go. Not many places. Decided to go to day 2 area I had planned out. Not much there. Saw a lone girl, but didn’t approach. Like I’ve said before, I need a place where I can just approach approach approach one after the other so I don’t even have to… Read more »
@culum @yareally @habd Figured it out 1) Start day early 2) Open sets early and merge sets On the two really successful days at that same bar, there were a couple things that stood out. Each day I had at least one 5 min convo on the way to the bar. On the second day, had one 5min with one dude, one 3min with two guys (merged the two of them into a 3 set including me), and one with just a single guy for like 2min. At bar, open people at bar and bartender. Jump around between talking at… Read more »
Hmm, what do you guys think about that sanford rape case. Seemed pretty cut and dry to me, he raped an unconscious chick and was seen doing it, buut, a former friend had a really good perspective on the issue: “”I don’t think it’s fair to base the fate of the next 10+ years of his life on the decision of a girl who doesn’t remember anything but the amount she drank to press charges against him,” her letter read. “I think it is disgusting and I am so sick of hearing that these young men are monsters when really,… Read more »
hank, there’s a good summary on the TRP subreddit, particularly by this guy:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/4n6bpy/brock_turner/d41eevz
The story seems to be largely bullshit, and it’s obvious that the woman in question is an alcoholic.
I was aware of the Purple Pill subreddit (yes, it actually exists) so I decided to check out of mere curiosity if they have a discussion on the Brock Turner case. Turns out they do, and despite the title, which is rather triggering from a Red Pill perspective, it’s fairly balanced and reasonable. https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4n6jch/cmv_brock_turner_should_get_life_in_prison/?sort=old What struck me are these opinions: My overall view is that cases like these are like the jackpot for feminists and SJW’s, and giving him a super tough sentence gives them nothing to moan about as far as rape culture is concerned. the lenient sentence gives… Read more »
HABD/Sentient: point taken. That’s why I’m done with online dating and have my new cold approach strategy. I really was sitting there with the HB5 thinking..”Why am I doing this?” HABD – yes, I did actually see the Provider pinging and the HB7’s sexual withdrawal happening in real time. One of the benefits of doing so many online dates..I have a way better tuned radar for the nuances of first dates. That’s why I kept consistently sexualizing and being physical and teasing her and stuff – and it worked up to a point – she’s still attracted to me and… Read more »
@hank holiday – saw both your FRs. Seems to me you have analyzed them right and you have a good handle on what the issue is – the biggest sticking point seems to be your location. I don’t know your living circumstances or anything (obviously) but perhaps it is worth making “moving” your top priority for a while and doing whatever you need to accomplish that – it’s okay to let Game take a back burner for a little while if it is *necessary* to make a move to a better city happen. Failing that, can you take some time… Read more »
@scray
and i mean, asking her WHY she felt this way when paradoxically, there was just nothing objectively special about me to her…
Sounds like she has a chemical addiction to you. Oxytocin or whatever. It’s all internal to her. Maybe she spent a long time (can be just 30 min) looking at your face while chatting.
@Culum
she’s still attracted to me and stuff, just firmly in Beta Provider zone.
But why is this the case? Didn’t you dq yourself as a provider early? Is there a problem with your internals so that you give off provider subcomms?
@Hank
I don’t have any hobbies
Why not? Hobbies are a great way to make friends with other men.
@theasdgamer – dunno dude. Not DQ’d well enough clearly. It was fine on the first date where I was dressed down and unshaven (albeit a nice bar), but just on the second date where she saw me in a suit and realized I lived in a nice area that set it off. I made it clear that I wasn’t looking for a relationship and travelled a lot, but didn’t DQ enough on the provider angle. Maybe I should have made her take turns paying for drinks or something. Plus, however I’m dressed, it’s hard to hide the fact that I’m… Read more »
@Culum
Nothing wrong with outright saying that you’re not bf material. DQ yourself at the first hint that a broad sees you as potential provider. “I don’t like kids…not ready to have kids of my own…I like to live in the moment…I’m too irresponsible…etc., etc., etc.”
When you’re on a date, do you still flirt with other women or do you give off the impression that your date has your full attention? If you do the latter, you may be pinging her Beta Provider circuit.
Culum This whole line of thinking ” just on the second date where she saw me in a suit and realized I lived in a nice area that set it off…. it’s hard to hide the fact that I’m educated and have a good job…” It”s total BS. Your frame is what “set it off”, on top of the expected ASD from the prior attempted bathroom BJ. Never lie, just don’t answer (guess… is this a job interview… you filling out a loan application… etc.). As Tom Wolfe notes in Bonfire of the Vanities “A lie may fool someone else,… Read more »
Culum – you will know you are setting the right frame if you are hearing things, in a sexy playful way, like “you’re bad… I knew you were trouble… You’re such an asshole”… stuff like that.
Culum – on the other hand… there is nothing wrong with banging this 7 on day 3… More than one way to skin the pussy… You aren’t putting yourself out, you are going to be in this place again… fit her in to your rotation.
Just pay attention to the opportunity cost of doing so… don’t spend too much time with her and not during prime cold approach nights and hours… 7 PM on a Tuesday for a glass of wine at your place and a bang sounds right… set the right frame in the lead up via text…
Culum
https://youtu.be/6gmnBxtLVhM
Chris, having a lark, pulling a stunt in a suit… It’s pretty funny LOL.
Lol. Dude looks like he is so uncomfortable in the suit. Like he’s modeling or something.
Some chicks are so transparently funny. God bless their hearts.
Looks…etc.
@Hank Holiday I just read your field reports and my impression of it, is that what you’re putting yourself through, on the face of it seems just plain awful, and boring too. I’m replying not to criticise, but because much of what you have said chimes with where I have been in my mind recently. I’m relatively new to game, and have been lurking this and other sites likes this for 6 months or so, doing my best to learn as much as I can, and have started to trying to put into practise the wisdom contributors to these sites… Read more »
Here is a r/TheRedPill successful guy who dates women at the wall. Guess the result:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/4nevzx/im_pregnant_and_you_are_the_father/
Wazzup ChunkyMonkey https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/10/03/a-shorn-chimp/#comment-713654 Some more thoughts for you… you are cluing in… Ahhh Daygame “I’m not getting better, nor any results, apart from a great many, “have a good day, it was nice meeting you”.” A big part of why guys like daygame is like you say, it’s quiet, single sets, no comp… but you are also winnowing through a ton of girls that anyone would have trouble picking up, committed girls, busy to and from work etc. Not impossible but more difficult in a different way. At least with night game you know girls are out for a reason… Read more »
Some more quick direct short day game examples…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpBhY3K2n0M
@theasdgamer @Andy You r a fucking lol MACHINE. Seriously though, thx. You DO know that HABD is gay, right? Married to another man. Lol, jk. milo says hi…lol good luck! __________ @hank props on figuring things out for yourself… on ‘being tired’… that could be the FI pushing on you… but the overall process of learning game (and self-development in general) is an emotional roller coaster anyway, so just keep troubleshooting like you have been and keep pushing through… getting into ‘state’ is a skill too… on not having good gaming venues… you can still practice the ‘value giving’ mindset/interactions… Read more »
“Dude looks like he is so uncomfortable in the suit. Like he’s modeling or something.” I’ve mentioned this before, but some things have to be repeated until people get it: People commonly remark how good I look in a suit, but other than being reasonably lean there’s nothing special about the way I look in a suit. Which is what makes me look good in a suit. I don’t act like wearing a suit is something special; they’re just clothes. And traditionally the suit is the least formal of clothing. It became somewhat formal in America because we were largely… Read more »
@ChunkyMonkey props on making the effort to improve your life… some points on your comment… your thoughts on: can’t stand nightclubs/drains your energy… social circle must consist of ONLY ‘trustworthy’ friends… day game feeling like door-to-door sales… and the feeling that you are not getting better at it… day game girls being ‘uninteresting’… ‘being a sad old loser trawling the streets’… etc… are all natural reactions to trying to break out of the FI/BP value set… it’s the FI pushing on you to stay in your place in ‘the system’…by trying to convince you that the ‘rewards’ from leaving the… Read more »
Genuine Desire v. Negotiate Desire, I rather be in a marriage where the desire is negotiated. Beauty is passing and charm is deceitful. Genuine desire relationships are full of passion/lust and God will humble you. As a man, you can’t use emotions to help you make decisions. After you have the talk, and she starts to lose respect for you after she ties you down- don’t buy the hypergamy crap. As a man, have you ever been full of passion and flipped the switch into rapey mode?? Probably, not. If she cheats on you cut her out of your life… Read more »
@HABD @Culum
do ya think?…lol… OR maybe NOT buy her dinner too…lol… what part of the concept of beta ‘provisioning’ did you forget?…lol… just to remind you… ‘alpha’ = ‘entitled’ = she pays for the pleasure of being allowed into your life = YOU are the prize…lol…
I totally agree, but I was hoping that Culum would figure this out on his own. Telling him this stuff overtly hasn’t helped in the past. Maybe if he had somebody take vids of him so that he could watch his own subcomms….
@Chunky
your thoughts on:
can’t stand nightclubs/drains your energy…
social circle must consist of ONLY ‘trustworthy’ friends…
day game feeling like door-to-door sales…
and the feeling that you are not getting better at it…
day game girls being ‘uninteresting’…
‘being a sad old loser trawling the streets’…
Sad Sack City, lol. Whatever happened to “Bring the party with you?” Can’t you entertain yourself wherever you are? Can’t you make a party on the spur of the moment and draw people together?
Re: Brock Turner True story, as most of you know I’ve been working in the liquor industry for more than a decade so I’m on promo events at least twice a month. I was living in Florida and we used to do these really popular martini fests where about two dozen distillers and importers would get together on club row, fence it off and charge $25/head to “sample” all the brands and cocktails at their tables. It was a lot of fun, but the potential to get really fucked up was something we always had to protect ourselves against. Not… Read more »
https://twitter.com/maxlinsky/status/741298781979824128
Do not help, and learn to disconnect yourself from any pretense of sympathy for a drunk girl.
I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of white knight voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something wonderful has happened…
“Pushy, loud-mouthed, outspoken women raised on the Fempowerment narrative are often the most insecure in respect to this conflict. On one hand the narrative has bred her to expect a man to be her-equal-who’s-better-than-her-equal and ‘man up’ and formalize on his own. On the other hand, when he doesn’t, the anxiety that comes with the countdown to her Wall pushes her to force his compliance or to provide her own security for herself.” The fempowered American woman has lost touch with her feminine side. The social order has artificially increased her SMV and given her power to such a level… Read more »
@Rollo: about “helping” drunk girls, good advice. I don’t go to clubs often but this year trying to improve my game I went some 3-4 times so far. Each time, there was a drunk girl stumbling and almost falling near me so I stretch my arm so the person can grab on. I would do the same for a guy. I don’t think I ever got any thanks (but, club music, so who knows and I shouldn’t care). But beyond getting some drink accidentally spilled on my clothes one time (drunk girls losing balance spilling the drink), there was even… Read more »
“I don’t act like wearing a suit is something special; they’re just clothes.” Hmm, how does it go? ‘A man’s clothes should look as though he chose them with taste, donned them with care, and then forgot about them.’ Or something like that. I’ve worn a suit multiple times a week since I was a lad. It’s easy to tell people that havn’t. They always have a cautious air about them, as though afraid everyone is looking at them. But I find it interesting that I’ve worn blacktie a few times only and whitetie (in old times the level of… Read more »
@IAS Pretty standard club stuff. People will fall on, grab, grope etc girls all the time so they (and their friends) get frustrated and defensive sometimes. It’s nothing personal. I had a girl trying to dance w me but her friend decided to push me away and take her friend away. I just took her off another guy and she appreciated it but her friend just saw another dude butt into her lol and thought enough was enough. Most guys get ornery and cling on. I let her go immediately and gave a friendly goodbye wave. The friend IMMEDIATELY softened,… Read more »
Oh, and I never have more than 1-2 drinks when I hit a club/bar. Not worthwhile.
Last time I was out I met a tiny Ethiopian girl; she told me I ‘wasn’t drunk enough’ and kept feeding me drinks. Lol.
She tried to pull me but bad logistics, arg
“Pretty standard club stuff. People will fall on, grab, grope etc girls all the time so they (and their friends) get frustrated and defensive sometimes. It’s nothing personal. “ Watch out, Forge. One minute it’s dancing, the next you could be facing jail, should that person decide she’s mad at you. http://www.jqpublicblog.com/how-to-destroy-a-fellow-airman-in-four-words-the/ Since I’m an ipso facto attention whore for posting anything whatsoever here (h/t YR), I’ll leave it with that. Thought it was worth saying that you can’t be too careful and you sound far too trusting. I hate seeing good people have their lives ruined that way, and… Read more »
@Forge: my contact with the girl in question was, at most, forearm on forearm, like a “forearm handshake”. The rest of my body wasn’t even close. It is conceivable her friend didn’t notice she stumbled, but even if the onlooker was rather drunk isn’t it a stretch to imagine such a situation as me groping? I didn’t take it personally but I thought it was odd. I think when I wrote that FR here YaReally (or one of the other more PUA-minded commentators) said it was a fairly standard “cockblock” move, because it wasn’t the girl I was “touching” that… Read more »