Two Guitars

2guitars

Recently, I’ve been very busy with more than a few business projects. ‘Success Coaches’ always tell you to develop passive forms of income in addition to whatever it is you consider your vocation, but I have an odd habit of turning my past “vocations” into passive forms of income as I move on to my next project.

Then I’ve had the audiobook of The Rational Male as a front-burner project for my leisure time along with doing re-edits of the first printed book (new, better-edited, bigger font edition coming soon) and then there’s the first draft of the third book I’m picking away at.

In between all of that I’ve been doing my best to stay on top of the comment threads for the essays I’m writing. Among these, for the past 6 or 7 months has been the saga of a commenter who goes by Softek. While I haven’t been able to keep abreast of all his comments and the exceptional advice of fellow Rational readers, I’m going to take a moment now to address his situation because it serves as an example, and perhaps a warning, to Red Pill aware men who come into a new awakened understanding of intergender dynamics and fall prey to some of the pitfalls inherent in unplugging themselves from their prior illusions.

I’ve followed Softek’s unplugging and his increased confidence from a thoroughly Blue Pill conditioned guy to something approaching Alpha confidence. Whether this is beginning to stick and becoming an internalized part of who Softek is as a man, I’ll let him say, but recently he’s been dealing with some of the fallout that comes from being caught up in what I went through in Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite.

Another very common occurrence is the “reformed” AFC who makes progress toward becoming more Game savvy, and as a result gets his “dream girl”, only to lose her after reverting back into an AFC frame once he’s in an LTR with her. I’m not a big Ross Jefferies fan, but he did say something very profound once, he said “teaching PUA skills to these chumps is like giving dynamite to children.” This is probably truer than he realized, because the potential for disaster is much higher. Most guys want that silver bullet, the magic formula that will get them the girl, but it does nothing to prepare them for the idyllic LTR their beta nature has fantasized about for so very long. They don’t become Men, they become children with dynamite. So are we really surprised when the guy who finally gets his Dream Girl as a result of learning Game becomes despondent and suicidal when he loses the “best thing he’ll ever have” when she leaves him? Are we shocked when his ONEitis turns out to be a BPD girl and his life’s ambitions fall into a death-spiral because he was unprepared to deal with a post-Game LTR?

Now, I’m not suggesting that Softek is despondent or suicidal in his present position. In fact, likely not because he’s got a base of support on this blog and in the manosphere at large to coach him through it. I’ll let him outline his situation in the comment thread for this post, however, Softek’s situation of getting wrapped up in a yo-yo clingy BPD relationship reminded me of a story I’m not very proud to relate, but in the interests of other guys in a similar situation I’ll explain it.

The Price of a BPD

Towards the end of my relationship with my own BPD there came a point when I attempted to make it work with her as a long distance relationship (LDR). This was really the last nail in the coffin for us. I knew damn well she was ‘cheating’ on me while I blithely convinced myself I would eventually get her to move another state away to join me so I could continue wallowing in her neurotic psychological abuse of me.

I’m happy to say that never happened, but it came at a cost. At one point during the LDR I had to make a decision in order to find a way to drive over a state to see her college graduation. I’d already had my (correct) suspicions she was fucking a guy from one of her classes, but I wasn’t entirely sure. You’ve got to understand that as a BPD she’d already had me ‘converted’ to accept her frame as the dominant one. And as pathetic as it’ll sound, I was still her thrall and blamed myself for her neurosis even as I lived 800 miles away.

People love to cast me as some life-long Alpha, but I’ve been Beta, a natural Alpha, and during this period of my life I was approaching Omega (by Vox’s definitions). If there’s a bright side, it was that the bit I’m about to relate to you was the catalyst in my turning my life around to be a ‘lesser Alpha’ in a permanent way.

I had already been brought low. In her neurotic jealousy, she insisted that I toss out a photo album of all the times I’d been on stage in my Hollywood days and essentially destroy the memories of friends and events I had archived of that time. It was like losing part of my soul, but I did so because I thought she was right; I was convinced anything that came before her that I’d done was the source of her distempers.

You might think that was bad, but in order for me to go to her graduation – the time she intentionally had me discover her fucking this guy – I had to pay for that horrible experience by selling off two very expensive guitars. I won’t tell you the brand, but they were a 12 and a 6 string acoustic that was priceless to me. Even the guy I sold them to asked me if I was sure I wanted to part with them, he could tell I didn’t.

But I did sell them, for $800. Now they’d be worth around $4,000, but it’s not the dollar value I regret the most, it was voluntarily cutting off a limb from myself for the privilege of learning exactly how fucked up this person was. The only time I’ve ever snapped with Mrs. Tomassi was her casually suggesting I might sell off a guitar from my present collection. She knew there was something more to it and I’ve never silenced her with more seriousness.

I have one post outlining Borderline Personality Disorder and I feel like it’s all I really needed to post about it. There was a time in my life when I was completely in the dark about anything like it, so when I first discovered it in the DSM while studying psych it literally sent chills down my spine.

After this traumatic experience, I came to realize that while all the women I’d been convinced and conditioned to believe were my duty to be supportive of were banging other men and earning degrees, my life was paralyzed. Now, in hindsight, I can see that my beating myself up over being stalled in life because of my Blue Pill conditioning was misplaced. ONEitis will do that to you, but when you combine it with a BPD it takes a trauma to wake you up – either that or you swallow a bullet or put a rope around your neck.

On the BPD comment thread, there’s a sobering account of another man’s experience with a BPD woman. I’ll quote it here, but virtually every experience I’ve had men relate to me about a BPD is a frighteningly similar story.

From Hugh:

So, to start, I discovered that my ex was having an affair, revolving around a “church based canoe group”. Initially, I began questioning and blaming myself, telling her that we needed to work it out. I spoke to a professional seeking support and answers, who somehow got her in to see him.

He reported to me that he diagnosed her with Borderline Personality Disorder, and that I had some major choices to make, as she rejected his diagnosis and any thought of treatment. He advised that she would never change without help, and that what she did had little to do with me or the children – it was all about her.

I initially failed to understand, and tried to reconcile. Over the next few months she promised to try, and even started going to church.

But, little-by-little she revealed how this had begun, first with lesbian affairs with coworkers, then eventually, when I bought her a new car, but declined to take a car maintenance class with her – she slept with the mechanic giving the class. I learned of more in rapid succession, of affairs, one night stands, and worse over a 7 year period. She was in the medical field and used the cover of being on call,being in surgery, working extra for a dentist, going to medical conferences, etc, etc.(I could comment on my opinion of medical morals, but ’nuff said) I recalled an occasion when I got overwhelmingly sleepy after consuming a soft drink at a movie with the ex. I realize now that she drugged me. She also infected me twice with STDs, telling me she had a yeast infection. She put antibiotic in my food unknown to me. My children later reported to me, when asked, that whoever I was out of town, the ex was “always” gone to the hospital at night “on call”.

The gross details aren’t necessary, but the revelations shook me back to reality. (disgusting, degrading, and sick are better terms even than gross)

She began trying to convince me to sell our house and move. Now awake, I realized that she wanted her share and would dump the children on the street and force a move to a new neighborhood. I had recently pulled her off the chest of our 11 year old son when she tried to strangle him for begging her not to leave him – so I wasn’t exactly fooled by her house sale drive. I resolved that my children needed to have the support of friends and family, and not be moved out of their home and away from friends. How I would do this came to me eventually – wait long enough and she would find another prince, but couldn’t hide it easily, and would have to leave.

I had been contacted by the wife of her latest affair, a physician whom she had recommended me to for minor surgery.(Roll that around for a second). She and I had quite a conversation, during which I learned that he had “done this before with his office nurse, and she had attempted suicide when he dumped her – possibly for my wife”. I advised her to seek professional medical and legal council, but also delivered an explicit warning concerning what I would do if I ever saw her husband in public.

The next day the ex came home late from work, crying and just glaring at me (a Thursday BTW – a favorite day for medical professionals at some hospitals to play, as it offers the cover for some surgeons who “have surgery that day”.) The next day, after meeting with her surgeon friend again, she proceeded to drive her car right in front of an oncoming truck, suffering broken ribs. I rushed to the hospital, told she was being X-rayed and that I should go to the room she was assigned. I did so and in rearranging the pillows on the bed, found a hand written note from a “friend” indicating they would be by later. I didn’t stay long after she got to the room.

Well, we bought her a new truck, and about 3 weeks later, she called to inform me that she was taking our motor home on a canoe trip that afternoon, and when she returned, she was “leaving the family”. She asked our teenaged daughter to drop her off, and my daughter called me, appalled, that the canoe trip was my ex and 4 men. My daughter said she threw gravel “all over them” with her rapid departure.

She never said anything to the children, but shortly after informed me that she was leaving that afternoon. She got friends to help her move and was gone when my dad and I returned from picking up the kids at school golf team practice.

The judge at the divorce hearing classified her as having abandoned the family and offered to impose child support payments on her – which I declined, in an attempt to cut all ties.

That was 31 years ago, and we had absolutely no contact with her until Dec 24, when a scribbled note, from some tiny town in East Texas arrived, stating that she had breast cancer, and I should take “appropriate measures concerning the children”.

I can’t imagine that she thinks any of us care!

So, that’s my early life’s scary story – though I left the horror story parts out!

Be safe, there are really monsters in the world!

Hugh

P S – My 2 older children are college educated,very successful professional people with families and children. I remarried a spectacular woman a few years after, the true savior of our lives, and have a third child, who is a Nurse Practitioner, and who also has 2 children.(I have advised her about morals in the medical field particularly).

Softek, the reason I’m dedicating an entire post (and hopefully an on-topic comment thread) about this is because, in my estimate, you’re in both a more precarious, yet potentially more hopeful, position than guys who’ve dealt with what you are now. My concern is that your Red Pill awareness and basic Game skills have brought you a dangerous woman. It’s the kids with dynamite dynamic I’m seeing unfold.

The good news is you have a solid community of men ready to help you with this, most of whom have some experience with toxic women. I’ve seen too many men learn Game or adopt an abundance frame, but still cling to the hope that they can fulfill a Blue Pill ideal with their Red Pill awareness. Women like the one you’re involved with will believe your Alpha frame, but when you shift or backslide into Blue Pill idealism they’re either disgusted with a man, or they see him as potential prey – and often are oblivious to their own interpretations of why they do.

I’d like to open up the commentary here for men to relate their experiences of dealing with BPD women and/or offer something for Softek. I realize there are a lot of well-meaning guys who think that BPD is overestimated in the ‘sphere, and while I can appreciate that, I think it speaks volumes that women can so regularly be confused with the signs of BPD today as to make that estimate. For my outline have a read of Borderline Personality Disorder first.

 

669 comments

  1. I personally think every man who finally swallows the red pill should fully embrace MGTOW for at least a year. You need to reach a stable state before trying to figure out how women enter into the picture again.

  2. AWESOME post Rollo! Right on target. I have experienced those type of women, but thankfully they were short-lived.. ala 9 1/2 weeks.

    It’s funny you mention women in the medical profession as that has been my experience with more than a few of them (nurses). A friend of mine from Dallas called those types of women as always on the lookout for the BBD (Bigger Better Deal). Very true.

    Again, great post Rollo. Really appreciated hearing your story. I hope Softek continues his awakening.

    ps: and check out Reverb.com for guitars. Just sayin..

  3. My mom is BPD (and so is her mom) and to stop abuse of your children don’t get a BPD woman pregnant, and the best way is don’t stick your dick in crazy.

    As young as I can remember I knew that my mother did not love me and I could not trust her. To this day she is toxic to every relationship, and almost everyone minimizes time with her. It’s sad and tragic, but if you attempt to save a BPD they will just pull you down so you both drown in their inflicted misery.

  4. What nightmare stories. I realize now that I dodged a bullet in college with what I know now was a BPD wreck of a woman.

  5. My ex-best friend was BPD. I’m sure it’s not the same level of damage as being in a romantic relationship with one, but she still almost ruined my life.

    I actually used to refer to her as my abusive boyfriend, because that’s how she acted. She would talk about how she wanted to slap me, she would belittle me in front of other people, she would harshly correct and criticize me but I wasn’t allowed to even raise my voice to her.

    And that fit really well with my pattern of enjoying being abused. Beyond that, her crazy fed me. It was fun, and sometimes intimate and scary like a dangerous adventure.

    I remember one particular night she and her husband came over to our house for dinner and she walked in SOBBING. Collapsed on the couch, accusing her husband, making my husband and I the mediators of the fight, I was like wtf is happening.

    She finally calmed down, chilled out and sat down and ate the food I cooked. Afterwards, she announced with a twinkle in her eye that she was still hungry and wanted McDonalds. Went out and came back with cheeseburgers for everyone. Asked me to come outside and smoke a black and mild with her. Urged me to tell her intimate details of how I was abused that I had never told anyone.

    It was like this intoxicating whirlwind. She made me believe that no one could ever understand me like she did. She made me feel like I was the only one who could really save her.

    What stands out to me looking back on it all is how she slowly changed the narrative of our relationship. The weird thing is how she seemed to choose me, I remember the second time I ever met her she hugged me and wouldn’t let go for way too long. The third encounter with her is when she ran into my husband when I wasn’t there and told him to tell me that she loved me.

    Towards the end, I remember her telling me that her husband had forced her to marry him, because he was a rich, spoiled boy and he had to have whatever he wanted. I remember thinking, how strange — I sat with you while you cried and begged him to propose to you. I watched YOU force him to marry you!

    And then soon after, she wrote me a letter telling me that I had forced her to be my friend, and she had always been so weak that she couldn’t escape me. I felt sick to my stomach reading it, like it all washed over me how crazy she was, and reality, the last few years felt upside down, and I couldn’t tell what was real.

    She would have destroyed me. I would have believed that I was a terrible person who had victimized her and was unworthy of friendship had we not been a part of a tight knit community where many, many people knew both of us and could help me see reality and disentangle myself from her.

    I felt like I needed her, and I felt like I couldn’t live without her, and no friendship could ever be so real and intimate. But she was KILLING me — my capacity for intimacy, friendship, my real personality. Once I told her I was done with her I felt so free. That was almost a year ago.

  6. Mine was a beautiful Latina with two kids. She came from a traditional family with strong religious ties and she was attending med school. I thought I had hit gold..sigh. I was so plugged in I’m honestly embarrassed to think about it.

    So moved her “ready made” family into my house and ignored all the red flags. Suffice to say she still had her kids dad hanging around acting crazy threatening me and saying they would be back together someday.

    Then she cheated and I stayed.

    We got married…ugh

    She started acting unstable, talking, obsessing over knives and butchery.

    She became physically violent. Calm and collected to punching me in the face and back to calm in a matter of seconds.

    Still stayed..

    Had her arrested after the third time she hit me in the face multiple times.

    She stabs my mattress with a huge knife leaving it for me to find.

    During sex one day she pulls out a knife she had hidden and starts slicing..result huge 5 inch scar on left forearm.

    I manipulate her to move out of my house with her kids “to make it work”

    Go no contact immediately

    She starts stalking..emails, fb accounts, ig accounts..I block all of them and she continues making new ones

    She’s sending me stuff a few times a week about how she’ll never let me go and she’s not going to let anyone have me.

    She starts stalking me at the gym, waiting outside in her keep when I leave.

    She has unprotected sex with the guy she cheated on me with when we were together only two months, then tries to have sex with me two days later.

    My house keys go “missing” one day

    Then her attitude changes she starts attending church and starts therapy..claiming she’s a changed women and deserves a man who knows what he wants and won’t confuse her.

    Starts sending me crazy emails screaming about how she wants a divorce now.

    Sends me emails screaming she’s going to kill me.

    All this has occurred over the last two and a half years. She really went off the deep end when I out my foot down and stopped allowing her to steamroll me. She’s been out of my house for about 5 months now and still contacts me once or twice a week. I try my best to ignore but it’s hard. I am in therapy and working on myself while hitting the gym and basically just learning to love myself and drawing validation internally instead of externally. This was a very very skimmed over and condensed version of my experience with her.

  7. @ Rollo

    … damn.

    I feel some kind of way man.

    Reading your piece got me thinking of my nightmare oneitis.

    I’m thinking ” Well, I will dox another part of my life to illustrate my story with pictures “. So I look up my version of BPD chick on mugshot.com because she’s been a fixture there forever, but I don’t know man… reading your story and then seeing my ex’s disgusting mugshot ( 35 years of drug abuse and prostitution ) has placed a fucking tennis ball in my throat.

    I don’t think of her often, and when I do, it’s not for very long.

    I’m thankful I got away from her with my life intact, and that I did not willfully follow her into a life of drug abuse.

    But looking at that mugshot man…FUCK. I was willing to die for that? I would’ve done anything THAT asked me to?

    You know, the fucking hole is so deep and dark that you can’t tell just how far your falling while you’re actively falling. Getting away from these types is like climbing out of the Grand Canyon and then looking back, saying to yourself “holy fuck!!”.

    Good tear inducing article man. I mean that.

  8. “If there’s a bright side, it was that the bit I’m about to relate to you was the catalyst in my turning my life around to be a ‘lesser Alpha’ in a permanent way.”…..

    I am “beta”. I recognize the negative consequences of being “beta”. I also recognize the “alpha” freedom from those negative consequences experienced by “alpha” men. So I desire “alpha” traits. The problem is this… I seek to be “alpha” ONLY to avoid the negative consequences of being “beta”. I do not seek “alpha” for the sake of being “alpha” itself but only to avoid the negative consequences of being “beta”. My problem is I do not want to really be “alpha”. I just want a simulacrum of “alpha” to treat the symptoms of “beta”. I really only see alpha as a practical antidote for my “beta” condition. I do not seek to redefine and reestablish myself but only control my condition. I do not want to change my actual being and I claim I cannot as rationalization for my real desire. This is why I think a compromise is best and I model myself the be a “lesser” “alpha”. That way, I can “play it safe” and not lose the opportunity for delusional potential “beta” payoff. I want to remain “beta” to experience the hoped for romantic idealization it offers. I am so ego invested in this romantic idealization that I project it upon ALL men and in my writings I repeatedly describe all men and masculinity itself as being imbued with this romantic idealization. And so, what I really want is the idealization without the negative consequences of ignoring reality as I cannot concede that one cannot have both. And so the neurosis continues in perpetuity.

    A man cannot have two masters. He is his own or he is not.

  9. It’s uncanny and almost inhumane how they feed off the pain and agony they cause you. The only response you will get is one completely lacking empathy or remorse and often times blameshifting to place her attacks as a result of something you did or didn’t do. As I begged and pleaded, talked, and tried every method I could to “help” her understand what she was doing was hurting me I failed at the time to realize she already knew!

    She almost seemed to draw some sort of energy from the misery she was causing me. The day I snapped and put her in her place I expected a hurricane of drama but what did I get instead? Home cooked meals, foot rubs, and the nicest person she’d ever been. But it only lasted until she realized it wasn’t drawing me back in. I had discovered the red pill by this point so I pushed back and that’s when she became violent and crazy. The hardest part of all this? The fact that a guy standing 6’1 weighing around 200lbs who had never had terrible luck with women got so wrapped up in the fantasy of sacrificing my very self to serve her needs. It will take a long time to forgive myself for all that I put myself through for her and I struggle now with ignoring her. A past of me is still wanting to make it work but I ignore it and consider it a trap she’ll use to kill me. Often times at night I find myself afraid that she’s in the house waiting silently with a knife. I’m actually afraid, the fear is real, and as ridiculous as it sounds these types of people get in your head and scramble everything up leaving you dazed and confused. It will be a long time before I forgive myself and get back to the way I was before. But I’m blessed to have all this knowledge at my disposal. I hope to get the divorce filed soon and my current goal is just to stave off her sexual advances and keep away from her.

  10. @ Softek

    I’m feeling good about the fact that a guy like Softek actually has the manosphere to help his predicament. He’s certainly a better man than he was over a year ago. (I have to imagine this is about the anniversary of meeting his current girl?). And he knows what he has to do. Not get sucked too deep down in a whole and not create an accidental pregnancy.

    I got with a BPD chick once in 1984 round about the time the diagnosis hit the DSM manual. I got lucky though, she was only a HB6, she broke up with me (because I wasn’t blue pill) and it was right around the time my ball-sack dried up for her–about nine months. It really was actually good for me–which I know is heresy–because the sex was good and it kept me less frustrated in my studies (first year of graduate degree).

    And perhaps my emotional Stoicism was helped as I soon got a job as an autopsy assistant on the weekends at the county coroner’s office. Yep good emotional training (as in suppression frivolous revolting thoughts).

    If Softek can actually pull off doing what he knows he needs to do, is he actually not better off? (than a year ago–females can be fun) Was Rollo not better off 20 years ago? I admit to speaking blasphemy about this, but I’m just a far off observer. And it is only an opinion.

    I don’t think it is over-diagnosed in the manosphere because it is just taking a lot of traits to the extreme. There is a psychological disease state and then there are traits (like real schizophrenia and schizo-affective traits).

    As we can see, all women <25 are behaving like glorified teenagers. BPD chicks never form a solid identity. They are a slave to the 48th law of power while permanently being in the Frame of a teenager. Woe betide she is a HB8 plus and fucks like a rabbit when she is manipulating the man. That's when the problems start–good sex. That is because BPD chicks invented the emotional roller coaster. And guess what that's good for? (hint: it is not indifference…)

    These women have supreme mastery in the Female Stages of Manipulation. Just on hard mode. If the diagnosis is accurate it is a no win situation. Unless you like betatization. Or have to because of pregnancy and your ethical belief system.

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/05/01/ghosts-in-the-machine/#comment-154238

    Softek has to look inward at his soul and his ego, and keep in mind his parental upbringing. If he does, in light of her skill as a supreme manipulator with an adolescent FI skillset, he has to realize he cannot compete in the chess match of relationship game. He simply cannot win.

    Because: Rollo: “Women like the one you’re involved with will believe your Alpha frame, but when you shift or backslide into Blue Pill idealism they’re either disgusted with a man, or they see him as potential prey – and often are oblivious to their own interpretations of why they do.”

    Softek, you’re a good man. Let’s get you better with our support. It’s hard getting better, but it is worth it.

    Actionable advice:

    My advice is to put your efforts into your professional career. Read Robert Greene’s book “Mastery”. Daniel Coyles “The Talent Code” (or his easier to read “Little Book of Talent”. And Steven Pressfields “Do The Work”. (Even if you acquire these by covert YaReally methods.)

  11. I found myself pacing up and down the driveway one afternoon, a pain in my chest, and suddenly caught myself thinking “She’s going to be home from work soon, I should go inside and put away the knives.”

    That’s when the light bulb went off in my head that I wasn’t simply in a bad situation, but that I was in an untenably bad situation.

    And even that wasn’t enough to get me out. I won’t detail the traumatic events that broke me free, but during it I found myself home alone, knowing that she wouldn’t be home for hours, and thinking “Someone in this thing is going to die violently. I don’t want it to be me. Even if it isn’t me, I don’t want to be here when it happens.”

    So I called up a friend who had a van and said, “Come over here; NOW!”

    And he did.

    I already had my lawyer on line, which helped. The second worst decision I ever made in my life was to wait two years to take her advice to just get out and worry about the legals later. She’d seen it before. She knew what I’d be facing if I didn’t.

    Turned out to be my father in law who bought the big one and my ex wasn’t the one who did it. Go figure. It was very, very violent.

    Softek: Get. Out. NOW.

  12. I think a big problem is sex is a drug and many younger men do not have much sexual experience, putting women on a pedestal. They marry the first one who love bombs them and gives them regular access to sex, they live in dread of losing that access because it’s all they know. When the woman strays, these guys act like drug addicts fearing a loss of supply, because they lack the confidence of being able to get another. About the best cure for a BDP oneitis is to go stone cold no contact and watch what they do rather than what they say… The trainwreak behavoir viewed from a safe distance and time generally does the trick.

  13. @redlight

    In regard to toxic family members I highly recommend listening to Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Even as a redpill, and keeping in mind she still will back her gender, she has great advice for cutting through the toxicity and the bullshit. She is on Sirus/XM on Stars channel. The best money I’ve spent in the last couple years is purchasing her podcasts.

    She does give actionable advice and is 100% behind Law #10.

    She does advocate for women being feminine, supportive and nice to men.

  14. Camaro Woes:

    There you are, Dude. We didn’t forget you. We’ve been waiting for you to check in, hoping you were doing OK.

    Hang in. It’s going to take some time for the ghosts to fade, but they do.

  15. Great post! I’ve related my experiences many times. I’ll sum it up in the patterns to look for:

    1) My crazy ex had a host of Cluster B/BPD behaviours: tattoo of another guy’s name on her ass she refused to get removed…a dodgy romantic history, plastic surgery on her tits that she was always proud to tell me about…she worshipped me after I banged her: calling me/texting 20 times a day for small things: just to ping text me, ask me about stuff…she was a pro at generating “content”…photos, etc etc. sexualizing.

    2) Then things started to go weird…I came back from a long trip and the honeymoon/long distance fantasy started to dry up. She was irritable for no reason. She was perfoming in a show and instead of inviting me, she was blaming me and raging on me about how much work she had. I asked her where I could buy tickets…she used that against me. I came to the show….she raged on me for not coming backstage first…she never thanked me for what I did…she raged on what I didn’t do. This was a pattern that would only get worse.

    3) Eventually she would break up…..then immediately after ending it tell me she “loved me”…then chased me again after I ignored her. She accused me of “abandoning” her….after she broke up with me first…

    4) She immediately took up with another guy who I’d known…and played us off each other. It was all about attention for her…good or bad. If it was bad, she could position herself as the “victim”….she showed my angry texts to these unsuspecting betas who would scowl at me or de-friend me…it was all so weird. She had a hold on guys for sure.

    5) She loved everything about me…until she hated everything about me…

    The “stalking” was more subtle: showing up where I was…showing up with other guys…walking out dramatically…chasing me to engage me…etc

    It was one of those things where I “thought” I was the master of “Game” by coming up with great text responses and push-pull. But in retrospect I was being played. She could sense then how “needy” I was.

    Then one day after a brief period of engagement: texting, talking…I reviewed the texts….It was me pinging her…and her responding immediately and me mistaking that instant response for wanting to get together. in the context of BPD it’s just rewarding bad behavior with attention.

    Finally I texted her: “let’s meet up for drinks this week”. She responded a few minutes later: “Not free this week”.

    I could sense she was once again stringing me along. I didn’t respond. I vowed this was it…like quitting smoking this was the “hard next”….I have since then completely avoided her, zero contact, when I see her walking towards me, I walk the other way or change course…I don’t look at her, I don’t respond to her.

    She’s since then: bad mouthed me, sent texts, showed up for things I’m at with other guys, thanked me for djing, offered me birthday cake…ignored me…

    Now she’s figured out she can’t get to me so the outreach is less frequent. I can see her staring at me…but she’s found another sucker to target.

    The advice I have for Softek and others is to get solid. Oneitis is not some magical voice telling you things are going to be ok…it’s an unhealthy obsession with someone who has triggered some type of shame in you that is prompting your childhood inadequacies to surface and forcing your subconscious to convince and rationalize that co-dependent side of your personality that if you just hang in there….everything will be as it was.

    I’ve read everything I can about BPD.

    But BPD is a label…and we are not trained psychologists nor are we qualified to make an accurate diagnosis.

    What’s more relevant is how you’re treated. If the girl you’re with is raging on you for small things, if she’s shit-testing beyond what is normal…if she’s chasing you beyond what you feel is normal….get out.

    The BPD mirrors your behavior, acts like you do…mine was “perfect” in every way….everything I liked she liked….until later she revealed she had always hated it….but then suddenly she was chasing another guy and doing all those same things.

    It takes discipline to get your head together. The BPD’s distractions and attention seeking techniques are part of her “Rolodex” as YaReally describes it….to keep you hooked in. Even your negative reactions and raging is feeding her desperate need for attention.

    Walking away and ignoring no matter what she throws at you is the only way to get your head straight.

    It’s been 14 months for me…it’s now at the point I don’t bother thinking of her or factoring her presence or absence into any of my decision-making.

  16. Here is a good read on the wayback machine:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160504161158/https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3kw43o/female_duties_vs_male_duties_in_committed/

    And another from married red pill reddit. Read the response from jacktenofhearts. For married men (did all the married men except Blax and Rollo leave the comments section, wtf?):

    Also, I just spent two links, but here is an excerpt from Shark who wrote The Black Flag book. In regard to relationship game, an excerpt from an old post of his:

    (3) Women will be women: They are fickle, absent-minded, emotional, hypergamous, and estrogen fueled; live with it. They say that players and Alphas are unjust for their view of women as paltry objects of pleasure, to which I would reply, it is a necessary, even demanded understanding. I don’t believe women are “inferior,” only different. But through the double process of demonizing game + the direct breeding of resentful jerks; the inferior view has become the more popular one. But here’s the crux of the matter: In the Omega to beta scale, women are viewed as pedestalized goddesses. Pussy is either never attained, or if it is, the dynamic is too lopsided for attraction to sustain itself. The girl gets bored, or if she’s equally desperate, resentful because she has to settle for something so meager. In the Greater beta to lesser Alpha scale, women are viewed as equal, but NOT different. Pussy may be acquired, but it is misunderstood. Men expect women to be logical, to not shit test, in other words, to be men with vaginas. Relationships may prosper, but poorly. Insecurities run rampant, jealousy backfires, the guy eventually loses control deep into the relationship because of beta-backsliding. Cheating, instability, and divorce are the results. In the Alpha to Super Alpha scale, women are viewed as inferior. Men intuitively understand that women ACT LIKE WOMEN, and are able to manipulate this precept to their advantage. Shit tests are properly handled, hurdles are overcome, and the man remains unshakeable for the most part. BECAUSE he sees a girl as “inferior,” he does not EXPECT her to reciprocate on an equal level. The dynamic is FUNCTIONAL because women are treated in a way that makes them feel aroused by a figure of higher perceived value, however, it is not ideal. It becomes too lopsided in favor of the man. The girl either quits because rapport gets broken too often, falls for someone else, or becomes so exhausted that it leaves her permanently damaged. The solution, is game. Combine the above view of women with a degree of respectability and LOGICAL understanding, and you can get the best out of a relationship. For instance, I KNOW that I will lose interest in a girl if I OVER-GAME. She’ll seek too much qualification, become too dependent, and too clingy. I’m able to calibrate up or down the right amount, keeping both of our interests at their peaks. I know when to pass shit tests because they are genuine shit tests, and when to signal affection because she’s genuinely unsure of my commitment. I know when to “act beta” just to get her to stop wanting to spend so much time with me so I can focus on work; I know when to cut-off all contact and disappear because her interest is waning. For soon-to-be-players, the crave for power always results in imbalanced relationships. It’s a rush the first time you have a disproportionate control over a relationship. The first time you really have a girl willing to do whatever it takes to be with you. Once you’re seasoned, you begin to understand that a 60-40 balance (in your favor) is ideal for both people, not a 90-10 one. The parrot analogy a sage once told me remains one of my favorites to illustrate this point. If you heard a parrot squawking, and you gave it food so it would stop, would you expect it to never squawk again? If you go “fix” your relationship by solving a problem, should you expect there to never be another problem? If you “pass” a jealousy shit test, should you expect there to never be another one? You must embrace and adapt to the nature of women, not try and change it.

  17. If you read up on the adrenochrome explanation of schizophrenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenochrome , its starts to make sense that things like narcissism and borderline(note that schizophrenics are narcissists) are likely just reactions to higher and higher levels of stress with schizo being the very end. I suspect its beneficial because under stress, such as hunting for game, there are mental modifications that give better performance(empathy for example is not beneficial when you have to kill an animal) under extreme stress you likely need maximal creativity to get out of the situation that is causing so much stress. Also note that generally men and women have different reactions to stress where men become introverted and women become more social, and more sexual. Its a surprising fact that many famous mathematicians made their greatest contributions while ill, within the last year/years of their lives. It seems that that stress maybe physical(people with lead posioning for example exhibit behavioral changes http://www.lead.org.au/fs/fst7.html) or mental (parents who always criticize their children or who smother them with too much love ). I was dating a woman who was borderline, and I gave her a few substances that eliminate certain toxins. She went from sleeping 4 hours to sleeping 8. I gave her some other things, and a woman who almost never smiled, quit smoking, and someone who almost never smiled, was happy and enthusiastic. She still has some of the former traits, I think likely because of habit…but it makes me think that my theory about the causes of bord/narcissism are correct. This would also explain why talk therapy fails so hard for them, justlike with schizo..its simply addressing the wrong cause.

  18. So maybe we can expound on relationship game one of these days. (I’ve mentioned before that Rollo’s sidebar on Categories: Relationship Game is a good read if you click on it and go way back).

    I’ve read a shit ton of books and one of the best recently was Dean Delis’ “The Passion Trap”

    Here I’m speaking of non-BPD relationships, but with the flair that it is actually a problem if the girl has one-itis for the guy (you know when he is 90/10 too good at game). It happens and that’s actually a problem. Whereas we all know the guy having one-itis is a pathological disorder.

    https://www.amazon.com/Passion-Trap-Right-Unbalanced-Relationship-ebook/dp/B003HGGI2S?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc

  19. I am old enough to remember Phil Hartmann. A great comedian and actor who was killed by his BPD wife.

    Also remember Kurt Cobain, who I also believe was killed, directly or indirectly, by his BPD wife.

    Both are hot. Both were fatal. I miss Kurt and Phil, they never got a chance to do everything they could because these women stole something that did not belong to them. A man’s life.

    @softek, Every woman is different, just like a fish. You caught this one, you can toss her back in the lake and catch another.

  20. Wow, look at the eyes of both women in Via Vitae’s post above. The crazy is just screaming to be let loose, although to the man it probably looks like she is there and focused in the moment and so ‘in’ to him.

  21. I have never felt compelled to comment here before. I read both books (which were both excellent and jesus as a guy hitting my late 30’s I see a ton of Alpha Widows. I never understood it until I read your work. It just furthered my resolve to never date anyone in that age range. )

    This post however resonated with me deeply. I am pretty sure that my mother has BPD. It has wrecked havoc on my families life and it did damage which is most likely unable to be repaired to my father and my sister. Anyone reading the comment sections will read many horrific stories about BPD. All of these are probably true. But my experience for most of my life was dealing with someone with BPD who was manipulative and able to move through everyday life in a way that people thought highly of her. She hid her condition from 99% of the people that she interacted with. Charming and giving to those who were not immediate members of her family and ingrained inner circle. So not only did she did horrible things to members of my family, she also set herself up to be a victim when we all finally couldn’t take anymore. She told blatant lies and twisted half truths which ruined my fathers friendships with a few of the people who mattered the most to him in the world. I honestly could write a novel about everything that she has done but it is not worth the time.

    A much finer writer than myself wrote about BPD in one of the last novels of his illustrious career. In South of Broad, Pat Conroy wrote the following when describing a character with BPD:

    “It is also a signature of an incurable madness that a shrink in Miami once diagnosed as borderline personality disorder. When I asked what that meant, the doctor told me, “It means your fucked. She’s fucked. I’ll load her up on drugs but that’s about all I can do. The borderlines are mean, egomanical,relentless. Their job is to make everyone around them miserable.”

    Yup.

  22. Another fine tail tale/story of BPD:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/comment-page-5/#comment-136967

    “I should have bailed sooner.

    You guys who haven’t studied a bit about personality disorders, especially BPD/NPD/HPD should do so. I knew shit about these things before it became my personal hell. Through my ignorance, I’ve endured a level of mental torture that I never would have imagined. Learn the characteristics of these disorders, and if you see them, GTFO. Not doing so can cost you your life. The time my wife physically assaulted me, in the state she was in, I have zero doubt that if a knife had been handy, she would have stabbed me with it.”

  23. I had a relationshit with a BPD woman. A sociopathic person. Paul Elam’s youtube channel with Dr. Paulmatier helped me re-align to reality. I now consider this rotten experience as a blessing in disguise because, well, I arrived here in Rollo’s blog.

  24. Speaking of guitars, I had to sell an ESP electric guitar worth $4000 to help her financially. In hindsight, I believe she secretly got off damaging me both psychologically and financially.

  25. Professional opinion:

    Emotionally unstable personality disorder – borderline type:

    These people suffer from an inability to relate and connect with people at an emotional level. Theories behind why that is the case have suggested that this is probably due to a disturbed childhood that has not allowed them to develop the emotional bonds with their families that would enable them to relate to others. This in turn creates a disturbed sense of identity and for childish / manipulative behaviour in adulthood. This frequently causes these patients to feel empty, that life is not worth living, to form unstable relationships – that are unstable possibly because of the other person but also in turn because of them being unable to form a trusting emotional connection with someone. They are constantly pre-occupied with thoughts of abandonment and minute differences with partners or loved ones – brings forward extreme emotional behaviour as they feel they are being abandoned.

    There is no cure for this disorder. There are intense psychological therapies that might offer some benefit but the patient must be committed and it will take a period of years to create any lasting change. In the meantime times of crisis will interrupt the process and push it back again a number of months if not years.

    Personal opinion:

    These are probably the worst people to be in a relationship with. They will never understand what a relationship is. They have no concept of it because the relationship is about them. Everything is about them – because they would in turn get a sense of identity from how they see themselves with you. Any sense of abandonment, any coldness from your part will probably result in self-harm, cheating or manipulative behaviours. What one must also understand is that they can also cause the children to suffer from a similar form of personality disorder because they will feel they are competing with them for attention.

    Avoid at all costs.

  26. “Any sense of abandonment, any coldness from your part will probably result in self-harm, cheating or manipulative behaviours.”

    And so you are likely to “fix” their fear of abandonment by “loving them more.”

    And down the martyr hole you go.

  27. Rollo thank you for sharing your story with us.
    It is a combination of fright and sadness to me when I realized how detrimental a BP frame is to a Man with a little RP guy deep down inside wishing he knew how to get out.

    Thanks to TRP I have embodied many characteristics of a True Red Pill Man, and this post reminded me again of how quickly everything I have achieved over the last few years can come crashing down with the relapse into the fantasy Blue Pill ideal of love and relationships and whatever the fuck else.

    The most difficult concept to accept is how the act of being a sacrificing, submissive, ‘do anything to make this work’ kind of Man is the most effective way to neuter yourself.

  28. “Women like the one you’re involved with will believe your Alpha frame, but when you shift or backslide into Blue Pill idealism they’re either disgusted with a man, or they see him as potential prey.”
    Leflora
    She ran into me an the metro and i had a serious relationship with her. I didn’t understand how to stop it. To tired to type all the details but she got close to my heart and i wasn’t able to let her go. That trauma brought me here.

  29. @rugby11
    The tests are absolutely useful however, it will be difficult to perform and really… you don’t need them.

    All it takes is to step back from your situation and view the actions and the motive behind them. Manipulative behaviour that can range to extreme actions in order to achieve a goal – self harm –> attention = psychopathy / BPD.
    Unstable moods, feelings of hopelessness a constant attempt to blame things on yourself and unable to take any form of responsibility –> BPD

  30. “Any sense of abandonment, any coldness from your part will probably result in self-harm, cheating or manipulative behaviours.”

    I have to disagree here. From my experience abandoning her and going stone cold as soon as anything from her (actions or emotions) is not how I like it works very well. She suffers at first, which is mostly an attempt to let you participate in that suffering and resulting stress, but if you stay stone cold and distance yourself as far as needed to avoid the emotional stress, she will come back and love you more.
    I’m still with my Dr. Borderline and had to do that cycle about every 2 months. Now after a year she has become able to keep an emotional connection for several weeks until the stress comes back and I have to distance myself again.
    It’s surely a dangerous game, especially if you got other sources of stress (like work) in your life. But if you keep your Mental Point of Origin and do not ever let her manipulate you, but care only for your own good, you can deal with those. It’s a long process of literally taming her. But for me it works and she also knows it’s what saves her.

  31. @niko
    Good point on responsibility. I keep teaching myself that with all my actions.

    Had this tune in my head all day the original video has many points of disfunction mostly with alcohol

    Being with responsible people is the red pill to me. It’s own wrong everything you DO.
    All the great things and all the negative things. It’s learning to be alone with all you are.

  32. A few examples of BPD behavior from my crazy ex:

    Had a tattoo of another guy’s name on her ass. When I asked why she hadn’t gotten it removed, she said “I will when I get married.” BPD fantasy thinking. They hold on to things because they hate losing control.

    Chased me like I was the Beatles, then broke up: 2 days before my birthday and 2 days before a massive event that I was consumed with and which she had helped plan. They start quick and they run away quick.

    She tried to manipulate her way into living with me by claiming that her mother had injured her hand and that she wanted to move into her apartment so could she move in with me “temporarily”. She texted this, didn’t hold an actual sit-down. When I texted that I was busy and worked and she could stay on the weekends, she got angry. I asked why mom couldn’t stay in her own home: no air-conditional…when I suggested buying her one…nope the house was too messy. So hire a cleaner….nope mom doesn’t like having strangers in her home. So the ONLY solution was to impose on me—via text—a major life-changing decision. She got mad when I suggested Air bnb. But that anger was temporary. After that…not a word about the moving in part.

    She would ignore me for weeks at a time then accuse ME of “disappearing”.

    Etc.

    Etc.

    There is a great website that serves as a great resource for understanding the BPD and your own attraction to her.

    http://www.sharischreiber.com/

    The big question I grappled with which is answered in those articles in the link is why was I so devastated? Read through all the material and it becomes clear.

    This isn’t simply a case of “there’s other fish in the sea”…if it was, it would be easy to walk away. Breaking up is the easy part. But when she cuts you off or when she parades the new guy in front of you or when she acts sweet to everyone but you….then you have to dig deep to see your own insecurities that would allow you to continue chasing someone who treats you so badly.

  33. I chose a dangerous woman intentionally. It has been 42 years of fun (hell). The 4 kids are worth it.

    What has been working lately is – “did you notice that woman looking me over?” – “did you notice those women looking me over?” – “Is that making you hot for me?” (Well it does make her hot. A good nose is all you need to be sure of that. The pussy smell is strong in that one.)

    You can – to a certain extent – overcome bad programming in her by resorting to the older circuits.

    I should add that I overcame my own PTSD and was so thankful that I prayed for a woman I could help do the same. It has been agonizingly slow but steady progress. The first thing I did 42 years ago was to teach her how to breathe. Mouth to mouth. Great fun.

  34. And my response to the usual “I’ll get another guy.” “I’ll get a divorce.” etc. is always “Go ahead. You can be replaced.” Also “Good luck finding a better guy.” Well she looked plenty. She never found a guy she wanted more than me. She gave up looking.

    I still remind her that she has never won in a confrontation with me. The best she has done is a tie.

    As time has passed she has become more submissive. And being submissive to me is the only thing that makes her (relationship) happy.

    I also learned to never give her the relationship she craves. With the response when we talk about it, “Do you want to feel connected to me or hear that ‘I love you’ crap”. When she says “Both” I tell her – “Only when I’m convinced that you are totally submissive to me in every respect.” She has yet to accomplish that.

  35. I am very skeptical as to the various DSM categories; they all seem to be pretty much the same, the range of types of behaviour within any category seem to have no connection with each other and categories are either added and removed depending in the DSM on what is or is not fashionable. We all at times have exhibited poor or emotional behaviour; women tend to exhibit what we recognise as female characteristic behaviour. Saying of an ex-gf that she is BPD is surely a little like saying ‘Witch’ and an indication that one did not get ones way. Pathologising humans and their behaviour strikes me as inherently a device to put the person down. With humans – all too human – one should not raise the bar too high.

  36. lh May 24th, 2016 at 11:56 pm

    YES !

    When the situation becomes very difficult you can do more than go STONE COLD. Stop talking to her. Not a word. Not a sound. That is probably the most terrifying thing you can do to a woman who wants you.

    Early on I might have to do that for a week or two. Now the most she can stand is 3 days. And it happens much less often.

  37. nikochoski May 24th, 2016 at 10:18 pm

    Sounds just like my LTR. What has made it last? She wanted me. Badly. She also had a few things I was interested in. A smokin’ body. And a very high IQ. The kids (4) are all very beautiful and very bright.

    My daughter can do thermodynamics as well as I can. And thermo is one of the most difficult subjects in physics. It washed out 1/2 of my Naval Nuke class. I was tops in the class.

    And the daughter’s looks? At least a 9.5. 6′ tall. She models. The boys are all 6’3″ or 6’4″. And I have made sure they know game.

  38. I don’t think it is over-diagnosed in the manosphere because it is just taking a lot of traits to the extreme. There is a psychological disease state and then there are traits (like real schizophrenia and schizo-affective traits).

    I’ve spent *ALOT* of time studying the cluster B disorders over the past year or so. One thing to realize IMO is there is no universally agreed set point where you cross into “personality disorder” vs. exhibiting a number of the traits of said personality disorder. It really is a subjective judgement call that could vary from one psychiatrist to the next. Heck, the DSM definitions change from one version to the next. For example, they’ve gotten rid of “psychopathy” and other related stuff and just call it “anti-social” personality disorder.

    It is more useful and probably more accurate to think of all the personality disorders as on a spectrum. For example, on the narcissistic spectrum, there is actually a level of narcissism called “healthy narcissism”. Where the line crosses into dysfunction isn’t exact. As a side point, I think it is also more useful and accurate to think of alpha-beta on a spectrum and not binary categories all men can be put in.

    So really I think it is unimportant to diagnose woman A or B with BPD or whether she has been officially diagnosed. Who cares? That is the job of the medical professional. I think as a guy in the dating/mating world you simply want to recognize if a woman is in fact exhibiting lots of BPD traits to a strong degree, and then run in the opposite direction. Immediately go NO CONTACT. You WILL NOT “manage” her and the relationship by being “alpha” or coming at her with a “red pill frame”. At best, you’ll be able to tame the “wild beast” most of the time, but just like the Big Cats you’ll never know when she’ll turn on you and inflict potentially irreversible mental and physical damage.

    I’ll repeat my previous advice to Softek. Immediately end the relationship, and go no contact.

    I’ll also say that guys should be aware of Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD) as well which is predominantly a female PD. They are much less dangerous than BPDs, but very capable of making your life very unpleasant and frustrating. Rollo, I suspect a blogger you and I are aware of is either full blown HPD or very high on the HPD spectrum.

    Since we are talking Cluster B, another thing you will often see is that men make up 75% or so of narcissists or NPD. This is a mostly accurate statement which is highly misleading. There is significant overlap in traits and behavior amongst NPD, HPD, and BPD. For example, some men with NPD may exhibit some very mild BDP traits but for diagnostic purposes the professionals will just say NPD. HPD and BPD are far more predominant amongst women, and almost always female BPDs and HPDs exhibit strong aspects of narcissistic behavior.

    As mentioned above, one of the big dangers with BPDs is they are very connected and invested in their sexual natures. On the whole, I have zero doubt that BPDs are generally more physically attractive than the typical woman because they are usually highly invested in maximizing their sex appeal, plus they tend to be more sexually talented than the typical woman. They have the potential to be catnip for men, especially an idealistic blue pill man who may be unaccustomed to sexual success.

    I’m going to repeat again for emphasis, if your GF exhibits strong BPD traits, end the relationship immediately. Physical assault, you ending up in jail somehow, financial ruin, even death are very likely possibilities.

  39. Can someone please differentiate the difference between NPD / BPD and normal solipsism and hypergamy? They seem to bleed into each other. Is it simply a matter of degree?

  40. What I’m getting from this thread is that AWALT – to varying degrees.

    I think that would be the wrong takeaway. Yes, women are women, and to some extent certain behavioral traits and communication are AWALT, but being BDP is a whole another ballgame. I think it is flat out wrong to say all women are BPD to some degree or another. It really devalues the meaning of BDP, similarly to how the word narcissistic is misused and conflated. Their is the common every day man vernacular, and then there is the more highly specific medically diagnostic use of the word.

  41. @Rollo: thanks for sharing.

    Hugh’s story is devastating, but the story of your album and guitars really resonated with me.

    You wouldn’t need that personal experience to be anti-LDR but I imagine it contributes.

    For reference:
    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/20/letting-go-of-invisible-friend/

    This is not me pulling the infamous “not in my case” defense even though I fortunately I’m not with a BPD and also closer than 800 miles away (under 150 miles right now). I need to figure out how to move forward from my own LDR status. I’m stuck on my “Mission” which is career related and limits my financial freedom such that I don’t want to just tell my wife to drop her (now relatively safe) job and move to wherever I get my next precarious job.

    More on-topic, I suspect my brother had a relationship with a BPD some 15 years ago (if not BPD, she did have some actual diagnosis – I just don’t know which one for sure). He was really messed up for a good bit there (I didn’t fully realize how much at the time). He came out of it, a good bit more cynical I believe.

  42. Can someone please differentiate the difference between NPD / BPD and normal solipsism and hypergamy? They seem to bleed into each other. Is it simply a matter of degree?

    I think these 4 items are mostly unrelated. When I think of solipsism or extreme solipsism it is characterized by an almost complete lack of intellectually understanding that “it isn’t all about you”. The perfect example here online the Internet is when you make a point or statement, and a woman responds as if you were addressing her personally in her response. You rarely if ever see men do this. What would be funny is I bet many women reading that statement would address me if I was talking about them personally.

    NPDs on the other hand often have great intellectual awareness of others, they simply don’t care and won’t have mirror emotions. Many NPDs are actually very talented at cold reads of others whereas the extreme solipsist literally doesn’t have it occur that someone else has a different mental thought state.

    Hypergamy is probably amplified in NPDs, BPDs, certainly NPDs because a mate has value for their “trophy effect”. The female NPD and possibly BPD is going to derive some of her own value from being seen with a “great” mate…i.e. best looking, smartest, most successful, etc. A female NPD is probably going to be very quick to discard a “loser” or a man who loses some of the qualities that make him a “prize”

  43. When I was about 10 years into my LTR certain events showed me that I was only attracted to “crazy women” (I was hanging with a group that had lesbians over represented even for that “place”) . It made me decide to do the best I could with the LTR. Funny enough more than one lesbian has been inordinately attracted to me.

    I was with the LTR at a taco joint (cool it with the jokes – lol – and for more jokes it was El Taco Loco) and a lesbian came up to us and told me she was deeply attracted to me. Her girl friend of course was highly pissed. The LTR and I were very amused.

  44. I have a BPD mother and felt the brunt of her “affections” until about 21y of age when I manged to move out of the house and on my own

    It took me several years to pick up the pieces and give some purpose to my life…

    I had always felt there was something wrong with how she behaved with me and I remember feeling envious of other kids my age with normal, supporting parents.

    Even though I made immense efforts one every front, I was never good enough for her expectations and standards, not in school (even though I was more than a decent student), not in the friends I was making, the way I talked or dressed.

    My father shielded me as much as he could and I still remember fondly every good word out of him. Unfortunately, most of the time he was away on work, providing for me, my older brother and her.

    So most of the time we were in her care.

    For the longest, I couldn’t understand why it was like that and of course I ended up blaming myself.

    Until a faithful week in the early 2000s, when after watching “The Sopranos” and being shocked to find similiraties between Tony’s mother, Livia, behavior and my own mother, I started to read more about the show. And, behold, the show creator, David Chased, based it on his own BPD mother (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livia_Soprano).

    I then looked into all that is BPD and managed to break the chains…

    Needless to say, all of this made me act stupid around the girls I liked and I had a difficult time in relationships.

    The funny thing is that the ones that I didn’t like I had a natural dipsosition in simply ignoring them / treating them in a very aloof and relaxed way and this translated many times in them making the first move.

    I was perplexed and annoyed by the fact that I couldn’t get the ones I liked, while the ones I didn’t even register would make their moves on me.

    Fast forward to RP and I now have a clear picture of the “whys”.

  45. I’ve personally had a messed up brain (bipolar, among others), I now no longer do. This advice is off the beaten path, but it’s from someone who intimately knows the territory, and heck, it might help.

    1) Most mental shit is not solvable using Psychologists/Psychiatric care. Treatable != solvable. Doesn’t work. The only ones they ‘cure’, are people who would pull themselves out anyway.

    2) Medication slows the downward spiral. It doesn’t fix anything permanently. As bad as it is now, it will become again. Worse even. That’s a promise. (Also, did I mention medication side effects?)

    3) Given 1+2 as the only options, the standard advice of ditching her is correct. It’s actually the only humane/moral thing, for both you and her. If she’s got any humanity left in her, that part of her will understand. If she’s got only animal left, she’ll blame you.

    4) Remember, the above is coming from someone on the ‘loosing’ end. I’ve had a brain that doesn’t work. It’s a living hell. I doubt she’s having a fun time either. That’s why escape through drugs, sex, suicide, etc… becomes extremely reasonable options.

    Regardless of what you want/she logically agrees to- the bad behavior will continue. Anything she promises to you, becomes one more thing her brain uses against her. One more thing she has to escape from.

    The above is pretty bleak. Here’s where I tell you how I got out- here’s your hope:

    1) What works is Neurofeedback.
    Bottom line is, it’s done so much to repair my brain, it’s not even funny. Made life worth living. It’s widely applicable across a range of mental disorders.

    Psychologists/Psychiatrists as the current standard of care have a conflict of interest. They’ll dismiss anecdotal evidence, and require a unreasonable standard of evidence. Then lack of that standard -> logical fallacy-> lack of efficacy.

    For borderline personality, I’m pretty sure, alpha theta or SRM are the main things to do. Cost 50-150 per session, 20-40 sessions. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/articles/eeg-neurofeedback-treating-psychiatric-disorders

    2) There may also be chronic sources of damage/nutritional deficiencies. Things that can’t kill you, so a doc won’t give a crap about. A functional medicine screening to find/eliminate them can help. The effect is either marginal, or livesaving. Cost ~ 2k. Practitioner skill varies tremendously- while you occasionally get one who knows the science behind what they are doing, most are monkeys pulling levers, hoping something will work. Still, they are at least pulling the right types of levers.

    Without it, Neurofeedback will still help tremendously, but might stall out/take longer.

    3) This affects current mood:
    http://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/isochronicBrainwaveGenerator.php
    So, show her it as a fun little toy(cause really, anything that far from the mainstream is either that, or crazy 😉 ). Fiddle the sliders till it makes her calm. If it does, awesome! Have it playing in the background. Take the fight/anger/distress right out of her.

    Weird music is a much better pacemaker than medication.

    4) If she’s still exhibiting bad behavior, after she’s learned she can calm herself without it, that’s no longer disease, that’s about her respect for you.
    Standard red pill remedies apply.

  46. Don’t be sore about the guitars Rollo – you had to buy that lesson to be the guy you are now. I can’t imagine that you think you’d be better off if you’d kept them but were still living in ignorance.

    In a way you’re lucky – if you hadn’t had to sell something precious she couldn’t have cut you so deep and you might not have learned anything.

  47. Rollo,

    As a guitarist myself of long standing I understand the regret you must feel at losing those two guitars in such circumstances. But it is exactly those really harsh lessons that stick with us as you have proven. The two guitars served you well for they helped to snap you out of your funk. I myself lost a guitar in very similar fashion. I think that BPD women instinctively home in on that which will cause us the most pain. But in the end that is what saves us from ourselves. The fact that they go too far.

    For Softek who is the point of your post I can offer nothing. In my experience there is nothing you can say to a man in such a situation. It is our own personal hell and you can only get out by your own effort. I hope that he manages it and that he learns the lesson.

  48. I’ll also say that guys should be aware of Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD) as well which is predominantly a female PD. They are much less dangerous than BPDs, but very capable of making your life very unpleasant and frustrating. Rollo, I suspect a blogger you and I are aware of is either full blown HPD or very high on the HPD spectrum.

    Yes, I have known an HPD fairly well several years ago — emotional vampire, I think, is the best way to describe it. It’s not as insane as BPD, but it’s nothing you want in your life.

    As mentioned above, one of the big dangers with BPDs is they are very connected and invested in their sexual natures. On the whole, I have zero doubt that BPDs are generally more physically attractive than the typical woman because they are usually highly invested in maximizing their sex appeal, plus they tend to be more sexually talented than the typical woman. They have the potential to be catnip for men, especially an idealistic blue pill man who may be unaccustomed to sexual success.

    HPD’s are like this, too. Sexuality is a large part of how they operate, how they generate their supply and so on. Once you know how to spot it, you can pick out the women in any group who are more likely to be HPD fairly easily, because the behaviors are fairly extreme. At the same time, because of what they are looking for, they tend to be more common (not common, but more common) in settings where they are more likely to get the supply they are looking for.

  49. Kang May 25th, 2016 at 4:08 am

    BPD? I’m not sure. PTSD definitely. We have been together 42 years. Married for 33. I will say some of the BPD symptoms are definitely there. From what I can tell all that is missing is the proclivity to violence. I was never afraid of her. But that could just be me. i.e. my lack of fear did not encourage the resort to violence.

  50. @nikochoski : “Theories behind why that is the case have suggested that this is probably due to a disturbed childhood that has not allowed them to develop the emotional bonds with their families that would enable them to relate to others.”

    This was absolutely the case with my friend. She had one of the most shocking, heartbreaking stories of developmental trauma I’ve ever heard. Abandoned by her mother at a young age, into the foster care system, adopted, unadopted, readopted.. she never had an attachment, let alone a secure attachment.

    She couldn’t trust anyone. She would tell me that she didn’t trust me, and I would think, you poor thing, eventually I’ll show you that you can trust me.

    She would treat me horribly for 1-2 weeks, and at the end of it, I would call her out on it and she would melt and gush about how I was the only one who hadn’t abandoned her, how she would test me to see if I would leave her to and I never failed her… I thought I was helping her. But it all added up to less than zero in her heart.

    I didn’t realize is that when someone has been through that level of early trauma their emotional world is all warped and twisted and stunted. She was never going to be able to recover, and the sad thing is I watched her work really hard at it, going to therapy, groups, reading books, for years.

    A lot of these women do have horror stories that will draw you in and make you want to save them. That’s what made me stay in the friendship in the early stages before I was hooked on the crazy whirlwind.

  51. I think I’m in a similar situation, though I don’t know the most recent details of softeks story. He did mention on a post about my situation that his was similar. I haven’t been posting the details to mine as they unfold but perhaps I should do it more. Here’s where I am now.

    The ex I dumped last year still has a boyfriend, we still fuck every now and then, and she is still trying to get pregnant. Few months back she dumped boyfriend (who was unwilling to knock her up either), sent me a picture of her in the tub with a dildo in her mouth and “come here”. So I go fuck her and she tries to get the relationship going again. I refused, possibly the wisest decision I’ve ever made in my life.

    She gets back together with ol faithful a week later. We continue hooking up. Eventually, she starts “not being in the mood” when I come over, and I usually leave after 15 minutes or so. After the third time, I make a comment about how I can’t believe she wanted me to date her, a girl who is so frequently not in the mood. A week after, she’s single again and fucking me like a porn star. Then she gets back together with guy again. More of the not in the mood nonsense. And also this time, telling me she’ll be home at X time and not being there when I show up. She did this for the like 6th time last night, and I no longer intend to even speak with her.

    Now for the good part. Few weeks ago I went over and hit it. Afterwards we hang out and she tells me she thinks she might be pregnant. At this point, though it is likely mine, (as far as I know).. I also knows she’s fucking at least two people (me and boyfriend).

    Me: If you are.. what do you intend to do?
    Her: what do you mean
    Me: you’re fucking two people so you dunno who the dad is
    Her: I dunno.. I hadn’t thought that far ahead
    Me: don’t you want to know,
    Her: to be honest I really don’t

    Me: what, you’ll just tell him it’s his?
    Her: I could..
    Me: well.. I guess that’d be the easy way

    I’m not sure how to feel about that conversation. Two years ago.. I would have been horrified. Now.. I’m not at all surprised. And more disturbing, I’d prefer not to find out either and would prefer letting her deceive this poor shmuck.

    Either way, she told me yesterday she found out she’s not. But I think cutting things off here would be a good idea. Idk if this behavior counts as BPD, but it’s definitely questionable behavior.

    PS I know I should have cut all ties with this girl long ago but she’s hot as fuck. Other than that I have no excuses xD

  52. BPD post…ya know Rollo, that’s what brought me to the RP about 5 years ago.

    As with other types of disorders, dissociative or some variation of affective, there’s a strong correlation between childhood trauma and disorders, especially with more serious of psychiatric disorders. However, that’s not an open and shut case supported by tons of research. This post reads like crib notes for the newbs from the been-there-done-that’s, that offer’s up salient advice to not only spot the ‘slut tells’ and the precursors that are usually packaged with the BPD women, but the early signs of neurotic and accompanying behavior. And that’s the key and surprisingly helpful advice that you can’t get but anywhere except for the ‘sphere’. BPDs will fuck your brains out while simultaneously telling you you’re a good boy. That’s the neurotic and mind-fuck, amongst other things that present that the newbs should be aware of in their SMP trajectory.

    It’s important for the newbs to always (red pill beginnings) to trust but verify as you change-over from blue pill idealizations to healthy skepticism for now and ever. As Rollo did, I snapped at the BPD (nurse by the way, Psych at Hopkins) as loud as I ever have due to the confounding irrationality. I did not have enough experience nor insight to stay clear. And it was painful.

    For psych issues, the best part of science is zeroing in on, surprise, inflammation; stress related, trauma or otherwise. *Danger & Play* has a nice write-up on the efficacy of NAC, even NIH is funding studies.

  53. Standing back and reading this, and knowing my own experience with BPD chick(s), I am getting to the feeling that they all (AWALT) have it on a sliding scale, full blown BPD is just one end of the spectrum. In some part of their hearts, their soul, their being they need the emotional spikes that @Ya Really always speaks of and the BPD type of behaviour brings them those spikes that they need to prop up and propel their reality. By extension think if what Illimitable Man writes about how female solipsism and by extension the female emotional state “Is their world”. BPD simply seems to be the turbo super charger version of this. They create situations that precipitate an emotional tempest and level of emotional intensity and this fills their world and informs it as the walls and shadows in their Platonic cave.
    It’s a self propelling reality, at least when perceived from within. Other players are drafted into the circus to infuse emotional energy and various props into that constructed emotional reality.
    As none or very little of it is “real” it is vastly unstable in any objective sense of the word.
    The manipulations come from trying to keep the circus going and to turbo hamster their way out of any conceivable responsibility for the tempest they create.
    Apply Tequila liberally and I bet you can get it to express in just about any woman to some extent.

  54. @CamaroWoes – Whew, glad to hear you are alive buddy. When you went quiet I wondered if she’d actually whacked you. You sound better, keep on keeping on.

  55. @ITTO
    “I personally think every man who finally swallows the red pill should fully embrace MGTOW for at least a year. You need to reach a stable state before trying to figure out how women enter into the picture again.”

    I believe that’s called ‘Monk Mode’, but yeah, I totally agree.

  56. In the PUA community we don’t really care much about the nuances between like BPD and ClusterB and general crazy-bitch behavior lol It’s just like everything falls under that umbrella of ClusterB and we want the guy to get the fuck out ASAP.

    ’cause what a lot of guys like Softek will do is they’ll use the nuances to stay in it. “Well, you guys said she’s BPD but I don’t think she’s ACTUALLY that…I mean sure she’s threatening suicide but she doesn’t fit this ENTIRE list of BPD traits and she baked me a muffin that one time, so now that I’ve decided she’s probably not actually “BPD”, I can dismiss all of your advice for escaping a BPD and figure out how to make this work.”

    That’s why Softek keeps comparing his girl to his buddy’s even WORSE girl, and to his OWN behavior, to minimize how fucked up what she’s doing is and make excuses for it etc etc

    End of the day we try to get guys to learn to have personal boundaries and enforce them, so they can determine “these are the behaviors I accept from people in my life and these are the behaviors I don’t accept”, and then if a girl (or guy) crosses that line, whether it’s because she’s BPD or ClusterB or HPD or bi-polar or on her period or just ungrateful/entitled or a bitch or in a bad mood or WHATEVER, it doesn’t matter, they’re handled the same way: Soft Next/Freezeout as punishment to enforce his personal boundaries, and if they continue to do it then they end up getting a Hard Next territory and the guy moves on.

    My boundaries are different from a buddy’s boundaries, but we learned where our boundaries are from having a bunch of girls in our lives over the years. Softek has no real reference experience because he has limited experience with having women in his life so his brain is like “who knows maybe this IS as good as it gets?” instead of going “no, I’ve had 10 girls that NEVER acted like this, this chick is getting Next’ed”

    The irony of course is that the same way Boyfriend Destroyers work (when you insult the girl’s boyfriend, she’ll defend him and when you compliment the girl’s boyfriend, she’ll bring up his flaws), this article and the comments and warnings etc will probably end up just making Softek instinctively want to defend his girl and view us as not understanding and that she’s not THAT bad it’s “just when she drinks” and he’ll probably use the phrase “I only tell you guys about the BAD stuff so you don’t hear about the good times too” etc etc (all standard by the books stuff), and end up focusing on her good points in trying to defend her, which ends up making him stay.

    The surreal part is he can just walk away at any point with no real repercussions. Like Louis CK says at 1:23:

    But the longer he’s in, the more invested he’ll be, and the harder it’ll be to leave. And when he’s up with the baby wondering why she hasn’t come home from her “totally platonic male friend I promise”s apartment at 2am, he’ll watch that Louis clip and think “…ya, I should’ve bailed when I could.”

    The key thing to remember is that she doesn’t need him to want to stay FOREVER…all she needs to do is keep him hooked long enough for her to get “accidentally” pregnant. Then the legal system and society will make sure he stays and provides, whether he wants to or not. That is her goal as a 31+yo woman. To get accidentally pregnant, lock him down, and then go fuck other guys behind his back because he can’t leave and THIS was her behavior when he COULD leave, and he’s been teaching her that she can act shitty and he won’t leave when he has NOTHING to lose so she’ll know he DEFINITELY won’t leave when he HAS something to lose.

    I really hope Softek doesn’t end up being a warning story ’cause he’s one of the most analytical self-aware dudes I’ve seen and a brain like that has unbelievable potential with regards to mastering pickup and getting the kinds of relationships he wants with the kinds of girls he dreams of. Dude would advance FAST if he was single and actually hitting the field.

  57. This book on divorcing an NPD / BPD personality was the beginning of my red-pill journey. I recommend it for anyone in this situation.

    https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality-ebook/dp/B0056JX46W?ie=UTF8&keywords=splitting&qid=1464187407&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&sr=1-1

    That being said, I found this blog and others and learned about hypergamy and solipsism. I began to understand that my spouse wasn’t as pathological as i originally thought. I have come to believe that this is a spectrum of behavior and the reason women are less often diagnosed is because their normal behavior is sometimes indistinguishable from disordered behavior. For what ever reason, these instincts are completely let off their leash in some women and their behavior becomes clinically diagnosable.

    Not all, but a large number of the experiences listed so far have to do with guys that found a BPD when they were still blue pill. I’m thinking there is a correlation to be made.

  58. @M Simon
    May 25th, 2016 at 4:56 am

    Do you think you have a good bit of psychopathy in you. And that makes you guys complementary in your natures? If you have the feminine BPD on one side, you have the male psychopath on the other end of the pole.

    And I mean this question in a good way with you being good at being a masculine male. To what what extent do you think it is good if present.

    This quote is from a new blog and a new article “Embrace Your Inner Psychopath”:

    “Want to know what makes a psychopath able to handle huge amounts of risk? Inability to bank emotions from past events. Each day is new, each day is coming from a position of 100% strength.”

    The writer is a married red pill contributor that is writing some good stuff these days.

    http://stonepimpletilists.blogspot.ca/2016/05/embrace-your-inner-psychopath.html

  59. @SJF

    “In regard to toxic family members I highly recommend listening to Dr. Laura Schlessinger”

    I like Dr. Laura but if one is a victim of physical and mental child abuse you are going to need a lot of in-person therapy. Having done this, I don’t forgive my mother, as forgive is too strong a word, but I accept her as she is, and know what to expect.

    Even though my mom and her mom were BPD, I believed the key thing with children was nurture, not heredity. I picked a wife who is a natural with children. The strange thing though is that even though my wife is a lot different than my mother, it turns out she actually charts on a number of the BPD traits on outofthefog:

    http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd

    As it states:

    People who suffer from BPD are all unique and so each person will display a different subset of traits

    However my wife does have unconditional love for our children, and the time before they turned teens was great. However the youngest daughter had a tendency to reinterpret events and lie. When she was a teen to get a job she had to take a standardized personality test, which she failed! We were going how do you fail, just use common sense. It turns out these simple tests work! Her BPD tendencies got worse, and she is now quite like my mother.

    The oldest daughter had problems with depression, and some experts told us she had a BPD. However of all the women (my mother, my wife, the daughters) she charts the lowest on the BPD traits. I believe they thought she was BPD because she is highly manipulative, which we all are (me included), but her problems have now been properly classified by other experts.

    All this has made me very knowledgable and I strongly recommend one does not get a BPD woman pregnant.

  60. @Softek and everyone else – There is one sure way to cure Oneitis. And that sure way is to FUCK OTHER WOMEN.

    Repeat: The cure for Oneitis is to FUCK OTHER WOMEN. Should I repeat it again, Softie? Get your fucking dick out and stick it in another woman. Now. Today if possible. Your or we can write 10,000 word comments and none of it will work as well as sticking your dick into another woman. Also consider that spinning plates will teach you about the Red Pill like nothing else, and women as they demonstrate that they really don’t need monogamy. My HB9? I tell her about the little college hotties I hit on. I’ve shown her pix of an old plate, proposing a threesome etc. Women are fine with all this, really. But you have to pay the price to be “in the club” and that price is Zero Fucks Given about what any given woman thinks about you or does. Once you really get that IT’S JUST SEX, and recognize that most women already know this, well, everything changes.

    I discovered this young and then for sure after my divorce. I wasn’t able to let go of my “One” until I had great sex with other women. My ex was/is covert Narcissistic Personality Disordered, so my psychology was all fucked up and it took a while of working on me to be rid of my cravings for her. They would come back at times but I never let her suck me back in to her crazy, emotionally abusive world.

    Having multiple partners forces you to have an abundance mentality. So when one plate starts playing games, you simply turn her off and focus on another. By developing this muscle, your tolerance for bullshit goes down and your partner’s detect this and react accordingly. BPD or not.

    As was said up-thread – don’t stick your dick into crazy in the first place. Since I have an abundance mentality when it comes to women, I can turn down the crazies and have done so many times. Maybe sometimes i’d fuck them once or mess around, but I had the good common sense to avoid almost all crazy abusive bitches because I know I have options.

    @SOFTIE AGAIN – I have been telling you to fuck other women since you met this one. This is about your behavior, not her craziness. I’m not terribly interested in talking about her cray-cray behavior, it’s not the issue. The issue is you. Sack up, fuck other women or you will just do this with the next women you meet too.

    Or you can continue to cower in dependency and fear and obsess about her and your relationship. Question: What if you took the energy you spend just commenting on her and the relationship here and instead focused it on your business? Would you maybe have enough money to move out of your parent’s house by now? Your choice. You are not a victim. You have all the information and knowledge. What is required is for you to act. Not think. Not talk. Not comment.

    And oh yeah, fucking other women is fun! Also, don’t tell her, whatever you do. It’s none of her fucking business. It’s your business. Core issue: Do you feel entitled to pussy or not? Hint – demonstrating entitlement to a woman’s pussy is like catnip for them. Some of them know it now just by making eye contact with me, I smirk and make clear I’m lusting after them and they love it. Wake up – you are wasting your youth fucking about with a crazy bitch and making her your world. Stop it. Really. At a certain point there is nothing more to “learn” there is just action. Take the actions recommended here. You are being given a gift most of us never received.

  61. @Softek and everyone else – There is one sure way to cure Oneitis. And that sure way is to FUCK OTHER WOMEN.

    THIS

    I’ve said before Softek that you need to fuck at least two other women, and it doesn’t matter if you “cheat” or break some rules being imposed on you, just do it. FUCK OTHER WOMEN

  62. With some current topics, caught my eye that the list of symptoms of BPD from that link had frequent changes of sexual orientation and gender identity.

  63. @Redlight – Thanks for the backup, brother. What I’m trying to make clear is that the very act of fucking other women will change one’s mindset. Not analysis. Not thinking. Just the awesome feeling of your dick slipping into another woman’s snatch. Her moaning, her desire, your dominance – her not caring that you are “cheating” if she knows you have other women, it’s like a giant mindwipe of the other woman. By the time you bust your nut, you are like “Why am I letting that other crazy bitch rent space in my head and fuck up my life?” Your tolerance for crap goes to zero. No thinking needed, just fucking. Embrace your inner pervert and dog. Step into your predatory sexual nature (notice that if my use of the word predatory makes you nervous, if it does I suggest you clean the sand out of your pussy). Own your lust and revel in it. Women will love you for it for the most part, and those who don’t – who gives a shit?

    This is why guys like Ya and Scray talk about “the field” all the time. It’s experience that changes you. Me? I’m utterly transformed wrt women by really working on pickup. My only regret is that I didn’t learn this at Softies age. I had the right impulses but could not accept them, I shamed myself for them. That’s the FI at work. No longer!

  64. @kfg

    I haven’t read the reviews in a long time. I may have to do that again. Are the one stars from obvious BPD personalities, or actual valid criticisms? I found the book very helpful at the time. If my reading list wasn’t already 2 feet thick, I’d go back and read it again to see if I still have the same opinion.

  65. My surmise is the married men are still here, I’m one. I think a lot of us could tell similar BPD escape tales, I sure can, but most likely we feel we’re just part of the echo chamber. All we are doing is confirming what you other guys went through.

    My years-ago story, shorn of all the butthurt, was I’d met this then-LTR at a gig, playing out. So she knew that music was one thing I did that was important to me. We started talking about doing the ring thing. But when enthusing about another upcoming gig, she set off an alarm bell by rolling her eyes and asking: “Isn’t it time you grew up a bit?”

    As in: huhwha???!!! She was first attracted to me seeing me on a stage, now I’m supposed to stop going on a stage so I can succumb to her idea of “growing up”???

    Now did I spot this pigeon? Did I see it right away as the storm warning it was? Fuck to the no – I was smitten, I’d found the lurve of my Lifetime, gabba gabba hey, things were enthusiastically good, lots of bouncy-bouncy etc. Took a few months of her tiring of my indoctrinated-BP supplicating, she threw me over for another guy who would treat her like a “daddy.” Which he did for awhile until he (like so many of us) also got BP complacent, then they split. Woof woof. Story ends there. For awhile I listened to lots of Jackson Browne “Fountains of Sorrow”-type shit (or for you millenials, records by Bright Eyes) and felt sorry for myself – still that dumping was the best thing for me, and it all came back to me when I finally journeyed to my RP awakening.

  66. LeeLee – May 25th, 2016 at 5:46 am

    That is quite close to the story of my LTR. But unlike you I prayed for a “hard case”. Progress has been terrible slow. But there has been progress. After 42 years she is trusting me (a little) and following instructions (some).

    She was always calmest when I had a girlfriend. So now that the kids have grown (the youngest is 25) I’m looking for a GF. The LTR approves because it helps her bond. And when she bonds she feels secure.

    The essence of it? It is a spiritual problem for her. We are getting that sorted. She said the other day that I’m the best Yoga teacher she ever had.

  67. @kfg @scribblerg

    Thank’s guys i am making progress but it is slow and there was for many months a lot of back and forth going on between me and her. Recently things have settled down a little and what i mean by that is her attempts at contacting me have gone down to maybe once or twice a week.

    It is still very hard for me sometimes to resist responding to her and she does at times show up at my house which worries me. She stills claims she is never going to let me go and sarcastically tells me that a restraining order wont stop her from coming to me, or that a divorce wont change the way she feels towards me.

    The thing is she now openly admits to having never taken the relationship serious before. So she’s attending counseling, church, and all these support groups and she claiming shes a changed women..But it will never change what happened.

    The longest i have held out from responding to her is two weeks. During extended periods of no contact i feel like i am navigating out of a cloud, my perception becomes clearer, and i feel positive and happy with myself.

    Which each instance of allowing myself to be drug back into the sink hole and coming back out i have a better and better understanding of how this is all working and how it was so easy for me to get lost in it all.

    So me and my therapist are working through WHY i ever allowed myself to be treated this way. In all my previous relationships i never put up with what i felt was crossing my boundaries. I have broke up with many decent looking girls but for some reason this one just got me..or better yet i allowed her to treat me subhuman. I have learned i must take responsibility for my part in this and that kinda hurts because i allowed it to happen and i didn’t walk away at the first sign of trouble like i had so many times in the past.

    All in all she took something from me. I am damaged, but not forever, and i will find my true self again. But first i must at all costs separate myself from this cancer that is sucking the very life from my soul. To not be delusional i have to confess that i am not 100% ready to resist her completely and that’s just the power she had over me..each day it gets easier and sooner rather than later i hope to truly be free from her manipulation and influence.

    Right now it’s just the guilt of this being my second marriage and the fact that i feel guilty divorcing her even though i have ever reason to. And of course she uses that to attempt to manipulate me.

    I have went on a few dates and have had good luck interacting with women and even getting laid but it hasn’t had the desired affect i was hoping for. Honestly i feel like i am disrespecting myself by interacting with females so soon after such a traumatic experience with one. I am damaged and i feel like i need time for myself, to love myself, and to nurture myself. Sounds gay, yes, but i actually feel at peace right now with no women in my life and i am coming closer to accepting that i might not ever get married again or have another LTR and being ok with it.

    After reading what i write here i seem so nonchalant about it and i guess that’s just because after so much i am just tired. This page has really helped improve my life and has made a positive difference.

    I will never be the same and that’s a good thing.

  68. @softek

    i mean, everyone’s telling you what to do and i’m sure you can understand logically….but it’s hard to muster the emotional willpower.

    a lot of game tactics we use come from women….i mean, men are more looks-oriented but a woman who knows what she’s doing can really kick the shit out of your psyche.

    like, i literally would leave work and take stupid long lunch breaks just to go fuck this chick (ya just blew it off…)….i mean talk about being under a spell. this chick was HOT, in her late 20’s, a divorced mom, and in ‘marketing.’ (these are all RED FLAGS…)

    so then the pregnancy and then miscarriage and then big blow up happens .and like, for the next few weeks, i literally felt the MOST DEPRESSED i have EVER FELT in my entire life (including up to present day). like, all food tasted wooden….i’d have my dick in someone else and couldn’t even focus on them.

    around this time, i went on a roll of hot chicks who were interested in me. but it didn’t really help….

    what helped was ultimately realizing my limits. like, nothing I can or could do was going to change her or our dynamic.

    and that there was NO OBLIGATION on my part to ‘fight for it’ or whatever gay shit they tell you in songs and movies.

    why? just go find a dynamic you like and WALK AWAY. just take the loss…

    learning how to let go of someone you love is probably the number one skill in the game. puts some hair on your chest and changes how you view relationships.

    and if you can let go of someone you love, then enforcing your boundaries with a soft Next becomes easier too.

    it’s really all from the same place ‘fuck i can’t fix this right now and i don’t need this negative energy and neither does she….this is waste of BOTH OUR time”

    only focus your attention on matters that you can help. stop giving attention to thinks that are just…..gonna get worse and worse.

    so if you do get through this, you’ll be way ahead of many guys in the game.

    a lot of guys get into game and they just sort of use it on girls who are like ‘beneath’ them and who they don’t really care about. you can see it in how they write and shit ‘ya i told that bitch ‘gay’ hahahahah that dumb slut’ (yes exaggerating a bit but the subtext is the same)….

    …and whatever floats your boat. but i don’t want to get wrapped up with someone unless i actually care about them and can or could fall for them. that’s where this shit counts. can you retain your strength in the face of someone you really do love?

  69. @softek

    and like….it’s one of these things where…

    first of all, in my FEELZ i grok her as hot but i mean…she was like a 6.5-7.

    second of all, if i told some of the chicks i’ve been with now about her and all the drama surrounding her, it’d be a huge DLV because they’d be like ‘huh?’

    like i even sort of laugh about it and facepalm at how ridiculous it is

    right now you don’t know how much better it can and will get.

    in a few years, you’ll look back at all this shit and just…

  70. SJF May 25th, 2016 at 7:56 am

    I have more than a little “bad psychopath” in me. I spent 3 years (give or take) in an Outlaw MC gang. I was getting revenge on the world for my lousy (physical violence starting at age 5) upbringing. I didn’t like where that was taking me (a trail of blackness so pronounced that idle acquaintances remarked on it) so I fixed it. I’m very disciplined when I set myself a goal.

    The clearance of that crap made me want to help another “hard case”.

    What I got out of that MC experience is that I can do “bad boy” when ever I want to attract females. And living through that experience (murderers were my friends) gives a LOT of self confidence.

    I went on to become an aerospace engineer. Sans degree. Since I was a kid I loved electronics. I learned computers (hardware and software) in the era before it was taught widely in schools. Very handy.

  71. @ITTO:
    Reading the one star reviews of that book is . . . interesting.”

    What is interesting is that the one star reviews are right that BPD is a mental illness. Softek’s girl is not right in the head. She has what we have diagnosed as a mental illness. And Softek can’t fix that by being a better man or being better at game. She was cast in her die a long time ago.

    Where they are wrong is in the fact that a man should show unconditional love for her because she “has a disease analogous to having cancer”. A man like Softek has every right, and indeed the obligation to NOT COMMIT himself to her. He entered this relationship in the wrong Frame–her Frame and he doesn’t have the skills because of lack of reference experience.

    YaReally is right: Softek needs to know how to enforce personal boundaries and if she crosses his well defined lines, he needs to sanction her. Soft next.And leave and move on. Hard next. That is also right out of Dr. Laura’s playbook.

    Scribbler is right, this is not about her and her faults, it is about Softek improving himself and gaining mastery over his mental point of origin, inner mindset and Frame and Game. We all have the ability to succeed, but is a long hard road to mastery. It doesn’t come free of charge. And you need other reference experiences to build on. You can’t build your self out of this hole because the foundation of that hole you are in consists of quicksand.

    At this point Softek has to look inward, discover his abilities, his aspirations and go out and work on developing Mastery in his personal mission. (After he defines that mission–something he admits he hasn’t)

    Scribbler: “Your choice. You are not a victim. You have all the information and knowledge. What is required is for you to act. Not think. Not talk. Not comment.”

    @Eon56

    May 25th, 2016 at 6:13 am
    I think I’m in a similar situation, though I don’t know the most recent details of softeks story.”

    Rollo linked to some of Softek’s recent details as of April 11 in the sixth paragraph:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/04/10/children-of-men/#comment-151569

    @Scribbler

    Glad to see you back. Love to read your comments. I’m wishing you the best.

    I have to tell you personally, that my inner game is working very, very well. (and you personally had a big hand in helping me with that and I’ll always be grateful for that).

    Despite my dust-ups with YaReally, I have benefitted by his constant citing of RDS inner game concepts. (Thanks YaReally!). Also despite the controversy, I’m also in a place where looks don’t matter with a good inner game. Imagine that. That inner game also sounds like it’s working for you, Scribbler.

  72. @Camaro – It’s easy why you couldn’t let go – you didn’t want to have a second marriage fail due to your ego. It’s pride, buddy. My ex did the same thing, she told me she stayed in her second marriage for 5 years longer than she should have simply because she didn’t want to give me the satisfaction of seeing her fail. Lol – while I was banging hot 20somethings, LMFAO. Watch out for the therapists, they thrive on “healing” etc but in the end, you have to just decide to let all this shit go and become a selfish prick. Because it serves you. As for other women and feeling like you are doing a disservice to yourself, yah, but what I see is that you are still plugged in. You still believe in romance and true love and all that FI invented crap. Shuck it. See through it. Chivalry, romance, courtship – all garbage and the crap that binds you. I mean, you’ve married for “love” twice, what’s it going to take to wake you the fuck up?

    Try fucking younger women. Try just being about sex, not a “relationship”. Focus on being your own point of mental origin and get on with making your life and self awesome and pleasing to you in every way.

    As for the crazy bitch, you did get a restraining order, yes? She shows up – call the cops. She can run her mouth all she wants, she can do so in the back of a squad car. Block her on your cell phone and email etc. Zero contact. None. Nada.

  73. Scribbler is right with everything he says. Though I’ll add in case of a deep oneitis it may take some time. The deeper you got involved, the more other experiences you’ll need.

    This is about your behavior, not her craziness.

    But that quote is the most important part. Keep your Mental Point of Origin with you. She doesn’t matter, only you matter and you should be focused on you.

  74. I’ve stopped giving Softek advice, because he won’t take it. The payoff for him IS this ” continue to cower in dependency and fear and obsess about her and your relationship.”. There is no payoff in escape, only fear.

    Until he can go “all in” on himself, nothing else will ever matter…

    Even his screen name is soft… I wish you well Softek. You control your destiny.

  75. @scribblerg

    ‘Embrace your inner pervert and dog. Step into your predatory sexual nature (notice that if my use of the word predatory makes you nervous, if it does I suggest you clean the sand out of your pussy). Own your lust and revel in it. Women will love you for it for the most part, and those who don’t – who gives a shit?’

  76. Is being a man pathological? Even at our “worst”, we seem to hold ourselves to some basic standard when dealing with women.

    I know Scrib would say that the easiest way to cure oneitis is to fuck other women. That is true. But to a point. Why? Because there was a time I inadvertently ran into a woman that I had fucked before whilst hauling another one that I was on my way to fuck shortly. It felt awkward. Almost as if something inside me was apologizing to her for seeing me going out with someone new. I have posted this sentiment in this forum before and someone immediately said that I had some unplugging to do. Judging from what I have read around in the manosphere, I believe I am more redpill than most. But I don’t know if this thing really ever dies for good.

  77. @SJF

    Also a woman won’t intentionally get pregnant in an effort to remove your wallet through your asshole because she has cancer. Those reviews are obviously written by the afflicted.

  78. cheupez May 25th, 2016 at 10:07 am

    When younger I often introduced the LTR to my priors. It never felt awkward. Why? I always parted with a girl on mutually acceptable terms. The breakups were never so stormy that we couldn’t be friends.

    The only girl I ever had one-itis for was the first. And a drunken walk home in the middle of a Chicago winter cured that. She also taught me the rudiments of Game (in ’62) so I was very very lucky.

    Me and the LTR? She was always a project. So I was mostly emotionally uninvolved. I could withdraw as necessary and wait for her to come around. I do like her. But she is just a woman. A good cigar is a smoke.

  79. “I’ve stopped giving Softek advice, because he won’t take it. The payoff for him IS this ” continue to cower in dependency and fear and obsess about her and your relationship.”. There is no payoff in escape, only fear.
    Until he can go “all in” on himself, nothing else will ever matter…

    At least there are other guys listening to the tough love……

    This is a repeat posting of an essay of a blogger on Rollo’s sidebar. The Man the Myth. I’ve had trouble linking to it before, so I’m C&Ping the whole essay. We love you, man Softek, but it applies to how you have operated in the past. (False Payoffs). It’s time to change the way you operate. It’s hard, but necessary.

    Self Destruction is Not Self Improvement
    January 21, 2015 by The Myth

    If you’re a man who is interested in self-improvement you know that change hurts. Growth is uncomfortable. Introspection is worse. Whether your battles are mental, emotional, social, or physical, chances are if you’re striving to better yourself it’s gonna hurt like hell at some point in your journey. Some men are not cut out for that journey from the get-go, but luckily for them there are ways that you can conserve and strengthen your will power and resolve. Even if you don’t have strong willpower and have no desire to cultivate it, there’s a pretty good workaround for that too. While some men are capable of dealing with the pain associated with personal development, others get their wiring all crossed and start to crave the pain associated with self improvement instead of the improvement itself. This post is for those guys.

    “Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen. Few in pursuit of the goal.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

    People create identities around suffering. Because most things worth having or achieving require some amount of suffering, people often confuse the suffering part with growth and development. Nothing could be further from the truth. While suffering is often a normal byproduct of self-improvement, introspection, and even just mastering a new skill – suffering for suffering’s sake is a waste of time and pain.

    How to Know if You’re a Self-Made Martyr:

    Communication

    -You talk about your suffering more than your accomplishments

    -You loudly and often declare your “principles” unsolicited, and how they directly lead to more suffering

    -You humblebrag

    -You boast about injuries/financial loss in a not-so-indirect way of showing how badass you are

    Choices

    -You take the harder road just so you can say you took the harder road

    -You create enemies so you have enemies to complain about

    -You subscribe to intense diets/workout routines and then tell everyone how hard they are, but how great you feel

    -You adopt an unhealthy work schedule of your own choosing – and then complain that you have no life

    Identity

    -You self-identify as a rebel or an outsider

    -You intentionally alienate yourself from support so you can say you have no support

    -You surround yourself with yes-men that congratulate you every step of the way while professing that you’re besieged on all sides by enemies of your own making.

    What to do About It:

    You’re doing it to yourself.

    I am a big believer in self-improvement. A man need not settle for mediocrity. Write down your specific goals. Whether it means making X amount of money in a year, being able to bench press twice your body weight, or increase your twitter following by 2000 people in a month you need to make your goals clear and specific. Then write down the necessary steps you need in order to take to reach your goal. (Ed. refer to Steven Pressfield’s “Do the Work” in this regard, keep is simple on one page in three acts).

    Now listen up, because here’s the important part – if it has nothing to do with furthering your goal STOP DOING IT.

    Talking about your injuries won’t heal them. Getting your ass over to mobilitywod.com and figuring out your mess will.

    Complaining about how many enemies you have won’t reduce the number of your enemies. Helping people will. Not being a jackass for publicity or to make yourself feel more important will.

    Work smart and hard. Don’t work extra hard because you’re not smart enough to stop and think about how to do it in a better way first. That’s being lazy.

    You are not a special snowflake.

    You’re not a rebel. Get that through your head. The way you don’t conform to society’s expectations is the same way literally millions of other people don’t conform. Get over yourself.

    Pay attention to your body. Don’t abuse substances including performance enhancing drugs if it will drastically shorten your athletic career and by that I mean if you plan on picking up your grand kids don’t be a dumbass on dead lift day.

    Pay attention to your limits. There is no honor in working out until the point of injury or until your body can no longer take it. There’s no point in being so busy that you don’t have time to enjoy your life. Concentrate on your goals and what you want out of life, not in your stubborn pursuit of pain for pain’s sake.

    Anything I missed?

    And another quote from Jim Bennett Mark Wahlberg) from The Gambler:

    Jim Bennett: “There was a student… just the other day… who said that my problem, if one’s nature is a problem, rather than just problematic, is that I see things in terms of victory or death, and not just victory but total victory. And it’s true: I always have. It’s either victory, or don’t bother. The only thing worth doing is the impossible. Everything else is gray. You’re born… as a man… with the nerves of a soldier, the apprehension of an angel, to lift a phrase, but there is no use for it. Here? Where’s the use for it? You’re set up to be a philosopher or a king or Shakespeare, and this is all they give you? This? Twenty- odd years of school which is all instruction in how to be ordinary… or they’ll fucking kill you, they fucking will, and then it’s a career, which is not the same thing as existence… I want unlimited things. I want everything. A real love. A real house. A real thing to do… every day. I’d rather die if I don’t get it. Did I just say that out loud?”

  80. @SJF – Indeed, one can grow from any experience if you are committed to learning. I realized that I’d become a man that I didn’t respect. I’d become what I loathed, without realizing it. The frustration of being Blue Pill wore me down and made me cynical and hopeless. After a while, there seemed no point in trying to be a “good man” anymore as I was so focused on externals.

    Now it’s different but by no means perfect. I’m slowly becoming my own mental point of origin and truly acting in my own self-interest versus out of ego and externals and fear and rage and regret and pain. I no longer have the externalized sense of who I should be or not be running all the time. But it’s still all happening after 50 years of social conditioning that doesn’t just disappear. And yet, I’m making progress.

    As for women, I’m still tempted to fall into their frames. I just did it with the HB9 and caught myself. But now I see it right away and boom, i’m back on track. Next.

  81. @ all

    Have only just started reading here, can’t wait to comment more later after getting through everything.

    @ Rollo

    Thank you very much for the dedicated post here. The help I’ve gotten here has been tremendous.

    And it’s a testament to the stark reality that, whether you’re with a girl with BPD, or a perceived “Unicorn,” what it all boils down to is what you want.

    Are you aware of what you want? Do you know what direction you want your life to go in?

    You can’t bring women, or even just one woman, along with you if you aren’t going anywhere. And have no idea about where you’re going.

    For the record, my friend who was with a DEFINITE BPD chick a couple years ago, had about $50,000.00 worth of guitars stolen from him. When things went south, she just loaded up her car with as much of his expensive shit as she could and hit the road. He had some extremely rare vintage guitars and also had some sealed, in the package T-shirts from when he went on tour as a roadie with some huge-name bands back in the ’70s.

    Gone.

    Not too long afterwards she sent him a photo of her getting ganbanged by two guys. He told me when he saw it he thought he was going to throw up. He said she was worse than she ever was now but she was ALWAYS kind of like this, and their relationship has been on and off for around 40 years.

    It ended after that episode, of course, and that’s the permanent end of that. But how long it lasted up to that point was amazing. He thought that after so many years she might really have gotten better, only for all that to happen at the end.

    Your metaphor about two guitars is spot on. Perfect example of what can happen in this kind of relationship.

    It’s making me stop and think about what I’m giving up to maintain this relationship. Which brings me to my next point:

    @ SJF

    Funnily enough, I do feel much better off than I was a year ago, as you said.

    Even more so lately that work has been picking up. I’ve been spending a lot less time with the “GF” (she’d get really upset if she heard that I told anyone I called her that, lol, because I haven’t ‘committed’ to her and we don’t officially have a title, by my call)……

    …which includes a lot less sex, but when we do get together, the time feels much better.

    Much more connected, better sex, I’m happier to see her, etc.

    If I’ve been doing nothing but working for a couple days and am burning out, it feels a lot better to see her.

    Despite all the issues, I will unquestionably say I’m doing better than a year ago. Suicide has not seemed like an option for a while and the stress of dealing with this girl has been much less than the stress of being incel.

    I’m on an upswing now, of course. Mostly it’s when she’s drinking that she’ll blow up and THEN it will get bad. Swearing, sarcasm, passive-aggressiveness, and then I’m like…..oh yeah, that’s why this is stressing me out so much.

    I’ve had multiple times where I almost ended the relationship then and there.

    There are Blue Pill remnants in me, for sure. A lot. But I do think that for the most part, for now, I’m getting more out of the relationship than it’s taking out of me.

    e.g., it isn’t her fault that I’m not attracting other girls.

    It isn’t because of her BPD that I’m not going out in private on my own and sarging, or hooking up, etc., developing my options.

    Right now I’m stuck about what I want. I still get surges of sexual desire when I pass by young girls on the street. And it bothers me I’ve never experienced that.

    And then the FI/Blue Pill conditioning steps in, and my automatic response is shame/guilt and “yeah right,” like, I could never been with an 18 year old who I’d be REALLY EXCITED about banging, with a body type I’ve only dreamed about being with, etc.

    I will say that the current GF does have major insecurities about her body, which I’m very attracted to. But it does add to the ‘guilt’ and shame about lusting after really hot women. Like it’s a throwback to feeling “shallow,” which some of my male friends accused me of being when I called things off with a morbidly obese chick.

    Shamed/ridiculed me, saying I was shallow and was full of shit, and not a good person, etc.

    So I still have hangups about simply wanting sex with hot women.

    Long story short: I’ve grown a LOT as a result of being in this relationship so far.

    I’ve been very careful about condoms lately, and the unprotected sex has stopped. That shit was really risky. I was doing it a lot unprotected. “Quit while you’re ahead” comes to mind.

    Rollo’s mentioned how it’s absolutely necessary for our development to have sex and relationships.

    I will attest to that. As an incel I felt like I was missing a lot of critical experiences, and I was. For the first time in my life I’ve felt relatively stable, probably because of having sex regularly and being in a regular relationship.

    Is it perfect? No. I don’t believe there’s any perfect relationship.

    But I know it starts with me. And despite all the issues she has, the kingpin here is my fixation on the FI/Blue Pill, etc.

    I’m not embracing what I want, because I don’t know what I want.

    And there is a lot of fear for me about ending the relationship. Here I still believe I’m too fat and out of shape and socially anxious to learn Game, etc., to get young hotties that I fantasize about….

    …and at the same time I have this girl who does have issues, but who has been with me for almost a year, and outside of the episodes, usually when she’s been drinking (not always), she’s catered to me, we’ve had sex regularly and it’s been very good, and it’s the first time I’ve felt really loved/supported and having someone who wants ‘the best for me’…..

    ….and that’s where the line is drawn.

    I’m the only one who can decide what’s best for me. This is where it’s hard for me to accept that her love for me is conditional: and if eventually she finds out I’m not going to give her a family, marry her, etc., she’ll drop me and go onto the next guy and I’ll be a distant memory.

    This is the hardest thing for me to accept.

    Things have been very bad with her, but they’ve also been really great. It just hurts to think that a part of why they’ve been great, or the major part, is because she still has me pinned as Provider and is hoping that someday soon I’ll be willing to marry her and give her kids.

    And talk about sacrificing.

    I don’t even have my own life together yet. I feel like I’ve barely lived, and have only just started to explore my options now at almost 27 years old, for the first time in my life.

    Even if there were no outbursts, no BPD, nothing really that bad at all, she’s still older than me and there’s an SMV conflict. It’s raising a whole bunch of shit for me and I’ve been thinking about it a lot. Taking it day by day, but thinking and processing a LOT about what I want out of life.

    For the record:

    My friend played the field and slept with HUNDREDS of women. And guess what? Got married at 35. Played the field right up until he tied the knot.

    18 years of marriage and then she files for divorce.

    So even a guy who followed the plan basically to a T, where anyone would think he COMPLETELY had his shit together…

    …did whatever he wanted for his whole youth, enjoyed tons of different women, got to know what he liked and didn’t like, and then in his mid 30’s gets married to a girl he’d known for 7 years. A girl, no less, who was 10 years younger than him.

    And it ended horribly.

    So even in the best looking scenarios, we always have to maintain RP awareness.

    It’s been almost a year with this chick for me.

    You think my friend wasn’t madly in love with his wife of 18 years, mother of his children, a woman he’d known for 25 years in total?

    The divorce was the turning point for him. But it blindsided him. He didn’t see it coming and he was still in love with her. It took a lot to turn him around and to get him to understand that now she was the enemy, and if he didn’t understand that, he was going to get eaten alive in court.

    The funny thing is she didn’t accuse him of abuse, and also said to her attorney that he was a good father to her children, they didn’t argue much at all or even ever, and that he was generous, and always took care of her, and was always a good partner to her.

    Her main reasons for divorce were “He should’ve known something was wrong,” and “I’m just not attracted to him anymore.”

    She did turn on him though and got very angry, saying shit like “You’ll be penniless and living out of your car,” etc. For reasons he had no way to understand. Couldn’t get it why she’d turn on him like that.

    Anyway, lots to think about, and lots of comments to go through here.

    Thanks again, as usual, for all the advice/help/support. I’ve been feeling like I’ve been hitting a growth spurt lately business and personal wise, and I’m aiming to make that continue and magnify as much as I can, of course with all the help I can get from guys here who have been through the ringer and seen the other side.

  82. I’ve been a long time lurker, reading, digesting and slowly making changes to my mindset and life.

    I’ve never commented, but this post struck a deep cord with me regarding a previous marriage.

    Looking back – the red flags were so obvious, but like most men who get tangled up with a BPD woman, you can’t spot them and I certainly couldn’t and didn’t.

    In the last 2 years, since the marriage ended – I’ve read voraciously on BPD and HPD and I can certainly say that my ex-wife ticked all 9 of the criteria in the DSM and I can recall many instances where she clearly demonstrated them.

    Thankfully, there were no kids.

    @Softek – I could say a great deal, point you to forums where you can see the fallout of BPD relationships\marriages and articles (the below are some of the best and most informative I’ve read)

    http://www.gettinbetter.com/articles.html

    There’s a whole section of BPD – I wouldn’t be surprised just how much you will relate to what’s written.

    The only course of action with a BPD woman – is to run. Sorry if it’s not what you might want to hear. I read something that described them perfectly – “The calendar changes, they do not.” They don’t get better and never will. I’d rather live alone than have a BPD woman slowly but surely suck the life force out of me. This, they all do – guaranteed.

    If going from beta to alpha is hard enough and all the things that come with it, i.e. holding frame, etc – doing that with a BPD woman is massively harder, almost guaranteed failure. So why waste your life chasing something that does not exist, nor will – any sense of normality with a BPD woman?

    My own experience is, yes AWALT – but a BPD woman is like AWALT, but with a huge dose of “steroids”. Fuck dealing with BPD – my lifespan and that of any man isn’t long enough.

  83. The guitars. Shit, that hurts.

    It’s posts and comments like this that save a man’s life in the year 2016.

    Great stuff. All the best to Softek. I hope you can find your way out of it man!

    When I think back of the most brutal of oneitis I’ve lived through which brought me to the edge of alcoholism and severe depression, I realize with a chill how lucky I was that there was _no_ BPD involved. It would have pushed me over the edge, easily.

    @ Rollo: regarding your past, I have been reading your post Fidelity (https://therationalmale.com/2012/02/28/fidelity/) where you outline your opinion on “cheating” and not having sex with other women beside
    your wife:

    “I’d love to speak from some Pollyanna, Promise Keeper’s moral high ground, but I really don’t have a reason to cheat. That isn’t to say I haven’t been tempted, but in the back of my head I know I’ve nailed some comparative girl in my past. I don’t dwell on wondering what it would be like to bang one of my ‘pour girls’ or the hot receptionist at one of our distributors, because I fondly recall fucking a girl who looked like her 20 years ago. For me, one of the benefits of having lived plate theory (albeit inadvertently) is knowing I climbed that mountain a while ago.”

    I know this is super personal and you stated many times that you don’t like to bring in your marriage as an example for other men to follow. But would you care to expand on this sometime, maybe in more general terms? From your wording it’s clear that by “cheating” you mean sleeping with other women without your wife knowing. I presume that after the initial phase of your relationship it was clear that this would going to be a monogamous LTR/marriage? There was never the need/desire/discussion to open it up to your wife or yourself having sex with other people, in full knowledge of their partner? Maybe a threesome? When the temptation to „cheat“ arrives and you don’t follow, is this a mostly conscious decision in the form of, „Here we are in Vegas and this young woman is giving me blatant IOI’s, it would be easy as shit to get this hotel room and … NOPE!! have been there, thanks“ or is the mere physical desire not strong enough to follow through an easy temptation? Is it a question of morales for you? Would in your opinion the raising of your daughter and your marriage have been impossible the way it went without sexual exclusivity?

    Fully understand if you don’t want to answer any of this, of course. But would be very interested to read your opinion on, say, a red-pill-take on the often cited Coolidge effect? Do you believe in it? Do you experience it?

    Many thanks.

    @ scray

    Am reading your FR’s. Am somewhere in the middle, because it’s fucking huge. Loving it. Great stuff. You and YaReally had some epic bromance going lol. Seriously, this is awesome. You seem to have had some cocky-assholish-vibe in your interactions right from the beginning, which I mean strictly positive. It’s probably the thing that benefited you the most besides a circle of natural friends who were into approaching women themselves (would give a lot if I had that), some legit improvisational skillz and the fucking discipline of going out again and again and sticking to it. Massive props, but you’ve heard this all before, I’m sure. I’ll give your FR’s as an example to all the short guys I know who believe that their height is making women impossible for them.

    @ YaReally, scray:

    Some technical questions:: At this level of your infield experience, do you still stick to some sort of discipline of going out (x number of nights/week with x number of approaches) or is it a dynamic mixture of social circles, buddies, fun and action within the general direction of PU, if you know what I mean? Do you still sarge solo and sober? Do you still suffer nights where you chicken out completely and don’t do a single approach? Do you still have to force yourself to enter the field at times or is it like, naaaah, can’t wait to get in there, even the worst times are pretty fun right now! How do you define „success“ in the field these days?

    You probably covered this somehwere already, but I’m slowly plowing through the huge walls of text, so forgive 😎

  84. I don’t think it matters if you are blue pill or red pill. With a little training these types of women are easily identifiable, after a date or two.

  85. @ALL (Sorry for the following tangent. We already did the back and forth last thread. I’m not trying to, nor will debate what I say in the last paragraph. I’m merely trying to balance discussion of relationship game as it relates to this original post. Because it is important to the original post. So it is actually not a tangent)

    @BluepillProfessor

    Comment on thread about Rollo’s original post at Married Red Pill:

    “This one has a LOT of relevance to MRP because we see this all the time and is one reason I put learning PUA after all that self improvement stuff in the levels of Dread.

    A lot of this stuff is like giving dynamite to children. If you don’t use the information to become stronger and instead use it to blow up and spout off the result is predictable.”

    I want to thank you for all the work you and the other moderators are doing at MRP reddit. I mentioned before that I wasn’t reading MRP reddit. But now I am. Perhaps one day I will contribute there, once I get to actually understanding how reddit works and have something to contribute. I actually got my MRP shit together thanks to Rollo and don’t feel compelled to work out for my benefit as much as perhaps contribute to others–but that is already being done well there by you moderators.

    And your book was a fantastic, selfless (helping other men) act in regards to LTR (monogamous or not) that I feel is under-represented in the manosphere (what with all the flinging accusations of purple pill). You guys do red pill well.

    So thanks again.

    Also, for married red pill, TheFamilyAlpha blogger is fantastic.

    https://thefamilyalpha.com/

    The reason for this comment I’m making here is because of the paradox of PUA game and LTR monogamous game. And a need for balancing STR and LTR. I firmly believe there are universal Game principles. Up until there are differences. Take for instance the contention about weight lifting. It is an observation of mine that lifting is universally thought of as not as important to short term relationship game, but is universally important to LTR game. . For many reasons. (well understood and explained by Rollo…..and you’d get laughed off the court at MRP reddit if you stated lifting wasn’t important) In LTR game it is a proxy for Alpha, strength, character and purpose in life. So I’m just trying to balance thought.

  86. I think being married and monogamous is defacto Blue Pill. Just sayin’…Let’s see if we can take this thread down a different rathole!

    I still maintain that Rollo is glazing up pour girls (and others) like donuts, but of course he can’t say that here. He has denied it when I’ve suggested it in the past, as he should. Maybe his wife brings other women to bed, and of course he won’t say that here either.

    Is polygamy Red Pill, or is it actually Blue Pill on steroids? Is it just women acting on beta bucks? Having plates is Red Pill but marrying a bunch of plates? Why?

    I’m working on my harem. Not there yet but it’s a fun project for sure. Particularly when you tell a woman that.

  87. I still maintain that Rollo is glazing up pour girls (and others) like donuts, but of course he can’t say that here. He has denied …

    That’s why it’s fun to troll him, because he can’t go “look I’m lifting so I can bang a new pour girl every week”, he can only say lifting and guitars helps dread, isn’t married red pill tranquil

  88. Want to thank you Rollo and othera. Am in a very Beta stance and learning, have reached the endpoint dealing with a bipolar wife, and have reached the divorce point and am struggling with that last push from being too Beta. I know what has to happen and just need to Red Pill up and take that final step. Your blog and books have been very helpful in changing my mindset and getting me away from creating the noose… hopefully I can get to a point where I can explain my narrative so others can learn from it… once I make the final leap. Thank all of you again…

  89. @softek:

    Just get yourself a second one, maybe a third and then choose, upgrade. It is easier to get women if you have already one, because preselection. Getting top women may be a lot like a career. You start somewhere low and work yourself up and each step is the proof you need for the next. Just keep going.

    You are currently at your SMV low regarding age. It will get only easier from there on, especially your inner game.

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