Children of Men

david

In last week’s comment thread, we were linked to a study that purported cuckoldry is far rarer than previously suspected. While I and many others are skeptical of the methodology of the findings I think it’s far more telling about the state of the Feminine Imperative that such a “study” (really meta-study) would be so triumphantly emphasized in the femosphere, thus highlighting the latent purpose for such a study to begin with.

Culum Straun links it for us:

New research suggests that the percentage of men (unknowingly) raising children who aren’t their own is only around 1-2%, as opposed to the 10-30% figure previously accepted over decades.

Reasons are unclear – the first hypothesis was that birth control may have reduced the *pregnancy* rates of women but not the infidelity rate – but apparently the 1-2% figure holds steady going back centuries, so that can’t be it.

The study authors conclude that in all probability the benefits of “superior genes” are outweighed by the risks of being caught and the social stigma etc.

I’d be really interested in seeing what you guys think – is this information that needs to be used to revise our view of the world around us, or is there some flaw in the reasoning/logic leading to 1-2%? The most obvious thing I can see is that we don’t know the methodologies of the underlying studies which were combined to find the meta survey..

I found it interesting that the first reflexive from the femosphere was to wave this in the air as if it were some kind of vindication or a refutation of Hypergamy. “See guys? We don’t actually lie about paternity; if we marry and fuck you we statistically have your kids.”

It’s important to remember that the definition they are exploring here is one where men are “unknowingly” raising the progeny of another man. From the article:

This challenges evolutionary psychologists who have suggested that human women “routinely ‘shop around’ for good genes by engaging in extra-pair copulation to obtain genetic benefits.”

They conveniently ignore the genomic evidence that shows roughly 80% of women bred with 20% of men in our evolutionary past (including Neanderthals), but the basis of the study is flawed because they ask the wrong question. Whether or not the women in our evolutionary past were pair-bonded in whatever social arrangement that passed for institutional monogamy at the time is functionally irrelevant to the latent purpose of cuckoldry.

It does, however, expose the mental point of origin of author . If she had cited the source for her quote I’d be less skeptical because no evo-psych researcher worth their salt would presume that women exclusively seek better genetic stock while within a pair-bonded relationship. It’s an indictment of the openness with which women embrace Hypergamy that they’d still need a janitor to sweep its ugliness back under the rug occasionally.

For the greater part of evo-psych research, the emphasis of study has centered on biological and evolutionary motivators (Estrus) that prompt women to Hypergamous predispositions and the end-purpose implied in women fulfilling their sexual strategy.

The Ends of Cuckoldry

The term “cuckoldry” isn’t strictly confined to duplicitous women duping husbands/boyfriends into believing the kid is theirs when it’s some other guy’s. Consider the marked increase in single motherhood since the Sexual Revolution; the statistic for abortion, the declining marriage rate and the fact that now, in westernized society, and the majority of births (close to 60%) are born to unwed mothers.

Now consider the social imperatives and zeitgeist of the past 70 years that promote women’s Hypergamous choices to the point that every woman’s sexual strategy and breeding choices are legislatively mandated to be supported. Men are mandated to support women’s breeding imperatives both directly and indirectly. Is that not the end purpose of cuckoldry?

Cuckoldry is implicative of far more than this woman’s narrow definition. And it’s narrow because women like Newitz are selling a salve to misdirect men in a larger society from considering that their cuckolding is really by and of their own volition. This is because men have been conditioned over the course of successive generations to think they are some kind of hero for ‘saving’ a woman from her own breeding decisions by directly or indirectly forgiving indiscretions and supporting and raising a child he didn’t father.

Just because a man knows the child isn’t his own doesn’t make it any less cuckoldry.

The question that needs to be asked, and is conveniently avoided in the article, is “what is the latent, evolutionarily motivated purpose of cuckoldry that would best serve women’s dualistic sexual strategy?” This is the uncomfortable question those nefarious evo-psych researchers really ask.

In the past, duplicitous, concealed, cuckoldry was a very risky prospect from a social perspective. It could mean family/tribal ostracism or even being stoned to death. So the larger, most deductively efficient way to achieve the same Hypergamous ends of cuckoldry is to reengineer a society where men are either ignorant of their own role in that cuckoldry or provided social rewards for their knowing participation in a socially acceptable form of cuckoldry. The latter is where we’ve progressed since the Sexual Revolution.

The ends remain the same, but it is cuckoldry by a different name. When we can restructure a social order that accepts and excuses both proactive and retroactive cuckoldry before the fact, we normalize it and defuse the consequences for women, while holding men accountable for its consequences or their unwillingness to participate in it. And even when a woman aborts a child – the ultimate confirmation of Hypergamous disapproval – that social order pre-approves her choice, pre-approves holding her unaccountable for it and concurrently makes the men who would find fault in it villains for judging her pre-approved act.

Sons of Cuckolds

Reader Petherton linked me to a fascinating article which not only illustrates that Hypergamy was an issue for the Greatest Generation, but also details the wages of ‘secret’ cuckoldry. Apparently the Archbishop of Canterbury has discovered he is the illegitimate son of Sir Winston Churchill’s last private secretary after taking a DNA test to prove his paternity.

Petherton:

This is a perfect example of women’s hypergamous nature. She rides the cock carousel and gets impregnated by an Alpha who’s already taken. She quickly marries a Beta who is hovering in the background and cuckolds him. He never unplugs, she loses respect for him (if there ever was any in the 1st place) and he drinks himself to an early death.

Eventually the truth comes out. Instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she paints herself as a victim. The pregnancy is blamed on alcohol, and she successfully generates pity from everyone. In fact she generates admiration from everyone for her brave and successful fight against alcoholism, and for putting up with an alcoholic husband.

No one anywhere suggests the truth: that she had a strategy (whether conscious or subconscious) to find the best genes for her offspring, while fooling another man into providing for that offspring. When she gets busted, she successfully paints herself as the victim. You couldn’t make it up!

Needless to say, I found this article and the blatantly revealed cuckoldry oddly karmic in its timing coinciding with the “cuckoldry” study’s release. However, we should now consider the Arch Bishop’s response to his mother’s proveable cuckoldry of his “father”.

“His deepest identity isn’t about which man was his father, but who his heavenly Father is.”

This is exactly the diplomatic response I’d expect from men (albeit a religious one in this instance) steeped in a feminine-primary social order and conditioned from birth to affirm his Blue Pill existence. While egalitarianism is ostensibly about baseline equalism and “it’s what’s on the inside that counts”, on the outside, there is no better social mandate that serves the evolutionary ends of Hypergamy. The Arch Bishop’s response to his mother’s cuckoldry is a textbook example of how the Feminine Imperative conditions men to excuse, affirm and perpetuate its ends.

He said the right thing.

From Schedules of Mating:

Cheating
For this dynamic, and the practicality of enjoying the best of both genetic worlds, women find it necessary to ‘cheat’. This cheating can be done proactively or reactively.

In the reactive model, a woman who has already paired with her long term partner choice, engages in a extramarital or extra-pairing, sexual intercourse with a short term partner (i.e. the cheating wife or girlfriend). That’s not to say this short term opportunity cannot develop into a 2nd, long term mate, but the action of infidelity itself is a method for securing better genetic stock than the committed male provider is (or was) capable of supplying.

Proactive cheating is the single Mommy dilema. This form of ‘cheating’ relies on the woman breeding with a Good Genes male, bearing his children and then abandoning him, or having him abandon her, (again through invented social conventions) in order to find a Good Dad male to provide for her and the children of her Good Genes partner to ensure their security.

I want to stress again that (most) women do not have some consciously constructed and recognized master plan to enact this cycle and deliberately trap men into it. Rather, the motivations for this behavior and the accompanying social rationales invented to justify it are an unconscious process. For the most part, women are unaware of this dynamic, but are nonetheless subject to its influence. For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

The Cuckold
On some level of consciousness, men innately sense something is wrong with this situation, though they may not be able to place why they feel it or misunderstand it in the confusion of women’s justifications for it. Or, they become frustrated by the social pressures to ‘do the right thing’, are shamed into martyrdom/savior-hood and committed to a feigned responsibility to these conventions. Nevertheless, some see it well enough to steer clear of single mothers, either by prior experience or observing other male cuckolds saddled with the responsibility of raising and providing for – no matter how involved or uninvolved – another man’s successful reproduction efforts with this woman.

Men often fall into the role of the proactive or reactive Cuckold. He will never enjoy the same benefits as his mates short term partner(s) to the same degree, in the way of sexual desire or immediacy of it, while at the same time enduring the social pressures of having to provide for this Good Genes father’s progeny. It could be argued that he may contribute minimally to their welfare, but on some level, whether emotional, physical, financial or educational he will contribute some effort for another man’s genetic stock in exchange for a limited form of sexuality/intimacy from the mother. To some degree, (even if only by his presence) he is sharing the parental investment that should be borne by the short term partner. If nothing else, he contributes the time and effort to her he could be better invested in finding a sexual partner with which he could pursue his own genetic imperative by his own methodology.

However, needless to say, there is no shortage of men sexually deprived enough to ‘see past’ the long term disadvantages, and not only rewarding, but reinforcing a single mother’s bad decisions (bad from his own interest’s POV) with regard to her breeding selections and schedules in exchange for short term sexual gratification. Furthermore, by reinforcing her behavior thusly, he reinforces the social convention for both men and women. It’s important to bear in mind that in this age women are ultimately, soley responsible for the men they choose to mate with (baring rape of course) AND giving birth to their children. Men do bear responsibility for their actions no doubt, but it is ultimately the decision of the female and her judgement that decides her and her children’s fate

Who’s the Daddy?

Finally, we complete the cuckoldry trifecta with the Spectator article, Who’s the Daddy. Again, serendipitously, the rationale of this article exposes (perhaps obliviously) the social underpinnings of the Feminine Imperative’s motives in getting men to accept women’s Hypergamous choices as the preeminent social norm.

Many men have, of course, ended up raising children who were not genetically their own, but really, does it matter? You can feel quite as much tenderness for a child you mistakenly think to be yours as for one who is.

[…]Uncertainty allows mothers to select for their children the father who would be best for them.

If the definition of cuckoldry ought to be confined to deceptive duplicity, as AnnaleeNewitz suggests in her article, why then should we need a push to legally mandate men to being accountable fathers by default when they proveably are not?

paternity

Ironically, the very same DNA swab test that betrayed the Arch Bishop’s mother’s cuckoldry is the test  proposes we make illegal or irrelevant in a court of law. And unironically, the Arch Bishop parrots back the mantra of the Feminine Imperative to excuse his own mother’s birth-fraud.

But in making paternity conditional on a test rather than the say-so of the mother, it has removed from women a powerful instrument of choice. I’m not sure that many people are much happier for it.

Novaseeker had an excellent comment on this:

From the time paternity tests became more available and reliable, and men started using them to avoid paternity claims, the same argument has been made: it’s bad for the kids. Who cares if he isn’t the bio-dad, fatherhood isn’t about biology, it’s about a parental relationship. We should trust women who determine who the father is, so that she can choose the best man she thinks to be the father, etc., etc. The same arguments have been made for some time. In fact, medical ethicists also make the same arguments, to a large degree, in support of not disclosing non-paternity when it comes up in tests that were not specifically undergone to determine paternity — in other words, if your kid is getting tested for inherited disease, and the hospital finds out that it isn’t your bio kid, they don’t tell you that, for all the reasons stated in the article.

This really is a visceral issue for women. Paternity tests strike at something fundamental in women, even if the actual cuckolding rate remains low: the possibility to cuck, if needed. It’s a visceral issue for women, at a very deep and basic hindbrain level, for fairly clear reasons. If paternity tests were ever to become standard/mandatory at birth, the cucking strategy, even if it is a rather uncommon one, would become completely unavailable, and almost every single woman finds that to be a problem based on her hindbrain (and regardless of how her forebrain will formulate that deep, basic discomfort).

I’ve stated it in the past, but as the Feminine Imperative becomes more comfortable with Open Hypergamy and Open Cuckoldry more men will find its machinations unignorable. Thus, as increasingly more men refuse to participate in the game of their gender’s debasement the imperative must pursue legal mandates and fluid social restructuring to force men to comply with it.

Novaseeker again:

An amazing thing is how easy it is for women to dismiss the significance of biological fatherhood. It’s almost as if it simply doesn’t matter to them.

If that’s not an obvious flag of the FI, and the attendant idea that one sex’s sexual strategy must always impinge on the other sex’s sexual strategy, I don’t know what is. It places zero, zilch, nada importance on the male interest in having genetic progeny — again, it’s as if that interest simply doesn’t exist, and is illegitimate to even take into consideration.

There was a time when I had difficulty explaining the difference between men’s idealistic concept of love and women’s opportunistic concept of love. I’ve recently come to see that the best explanations and contrasts come from the openly embraced examples set by women that can’t be ignored.

There is no better example of women’s opportunistic love, indeed, women’s innate solipsistic nature, than the phrase “it shouldn’t matter to the man who the biological father of the child really is – he just needs to accept it and support it.”

And there is no greater evidence of the Feminine Imperative’s purpose than a society structured to ensure that men and women believe this, as well as perpetuate it.

521 comments

  1. Rollo, why are you skeptical of the methodology?

    2% is still 1 in 50 fathers being duped (under the rather strict definition they use). That is not necessarily something to brag about. Infidelity is of course higher by definition.

  2. This will go to moderation for the number of links, but here are some of the abstracts and one of the papers referenced in the meta survey…

    The Ars Technica article: http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/cuckoldry-is-incredibly-rare-among-humans/

    Following shortly, poster Scribblerg linked to the actual journal article: http://www.cell.com/pb-assets/journals/trends/ecology-evolution/tree2086.pdf

    I collected a few links to abstracts of some of the references in the new survey, of the studies it refers which are not historical, so affected by modern culture and modern birth control:

    2006 study shows large difference of EPP between fathers with high confidence of paternity (around 2%) and fathers with low confidence (around 30%) http://www.psc.isr.umich.edu/pubs/abs/4910

    2012 estimate of Germany EPP, under 1%, statistics 971 fathers (states similar rate in Switzerland) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22688803

    2008 meta survey of decline of EPP with birth control, suggests a small decline of EPP with birth control, supports that EPP is and was below 10% http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19320216

    A very interesting paper mentioned in the meta survey is on the Dogon population, which does not use contraceptives. Still low %, lowest for those with the indigenous religion (and then Islam), higher for Christian religions

    The paper is titled

    Religion as a means to assure paternity

    http://www.pnas.org/content/109/25/9781.full
    “We show that paternity certainty was higher in the indigenous religion than in Christianity, which we attribute to the abandonment of menstrual taboos by the Christians.”
    (the indigenous religion is at 1.3% vs 2.9% for Christians).

  3. Still reading the post but wanted an opinion from Rollo & the guys, with regards to honesty, from a male perspective –

    From the “Paternity Fraud” article:

    “However, 61 per cent of women would want their partners to be “brutally honest” if they asked them “do I look fat?” or “do you think my best friend s attractive?”

    Tomassi-sensei, I don’t know what you think of this, but, though I’m for keeping women on a need-to-know basis; are there times honesty can be used to entrench MPO, instigate &/or maintain dread?
    I believe so, what do you guys think?

    In what ways can ‘brutal’ honesty be used in a red pill perspective?

  4. “do I look fat?”

    Pay careful attention to the phrasing of the question.

    Hint: the question is not, “Am I fat?”

  5. Much higher than that and 100% of husbands would be cuckolds in the days of large families. The conclusion could be that mate guarding is reasonably effective, not that women can be trusted.

  6. I’ve come to similar conclusions by observing the structure of our society. We’ve come to a point where it takes us as a society only a small number of specialized men to provide us with the necessary security and mataerial production. But even in those cases, a man being it a soldier, firefighter, police, miner, etc does not get the rewards and social status that men of prior generations would get. Yes, they get paid for their work, but doing those kind of jobs is not just about a salary.

    Normally, in a society where the FI and MI are balanced, men would willingly participate in these life threatening activities, knowing that they get to enjoy the respect from society, the support of commitment(+ sex) of their spouses, their own heir/legacy, and recognition of their burden of performance in old age when they’re not as productive.

    Right now, if a soldier is to abandon his line of duty he risks years of prison or even his life for treason. Yet, we allow their spouses back home, to cheat on them/cuckold, divorce them, take their house and savings.

    Yes, there’s less men doing dangerous jobs, but it is still men doing them, while women reap the rewards without having to satisfy any of the MI prerequisites. This is indirect cuckoldry on a societal level.

    ________________________
    Side Story:A couple of weeks ago I was chatting on Tinder with an italian single mother who used to be married to an Albanian guy. She liked me and wanted to talk since we had lots of things in common culturally, so I pitched a date. She was tempted but her response was: It’d never work out between us, because she knows Albanians(I’m Albanian) very well, that they’d never have a serious relationship with a single mother.
    I lol-ed at that, she was damn right.

    The more time I spend in the States the more I get to appreciate the wisdom and cultural values of my home country. Years ago back home you could have easily described me as BP and a SJW, and that was because I could afford to think and behave that way. The community in which I lived was such that’d allow me to even be totally BP yet have “Ok” relationship with women, because it’d teach women acknowledge my masculinity, and respect me from the get-go.
    Being in the states, has made me realize how much “privileged” as a man I was, while now even with a fully converted RP mindset, I have to watch out and be on guard because the “Village” is teaching women to abhor their part of “burden of performance” in any type relationship with a man.

    From the beginning you’re a beta to her, and you have to prove you’re not, compared to back home where women expected me to be Alpha. It is much easier to maintain a positive impression vs having to build it from ground up, or even worse, going from negative to positive. That’s exactly what most men in the States have to go through.

    I agree with Rollo when he says that Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic. So it is very possible to raise the majority of men to be Alphas, given the right social conditions. When I first moved to the States, I heard for the first time the terms Alpha and Beta. In my worldview those terms made no sense. Why would you call some men Alphas and others betas?! To me the Definition of what an Alpha is, was actually the same definition of what a Man is.Now, I understood there were leaders among men, but more like leaders of Alphas, rather than Leaders of betas.

    I know I’m romanticizing my home culture a little, so it’s not all roses back there.
    Over time I’ve gotten to experience the fact that Hypergamy and female solipsism is actually a constant among women across cultures. Not long ago this Albanian guy(doing grad school in the states) hit me up one night, he was going out to bars with 2 Albanian girls(they were just friends) so he asked me to join. I didn’t have plans for the night so I tagged along. We went to a few bars. Personally, I was enjoying the night, at times with my group, and others playing the field. At a certain point the girls wanted to bounce again, this time to a club. Once we get there and wait in line, we’re told that guys had to pay cover to get in. I didn’t want to shell money since it was almost 2am and wasn’t going to spend much time there anyway. So I let the rest of the group figure it out what they wanted, while I was chillin’ with my phone on the side.
    Next thing I see, the girls get in the club, and my friend still in line. He turns around with this shocked face: I can’t believe they just left us here.
    I lol-ed at it.I didn’t know the girls very well so I could care less, plus being in the States I’d gotten used to this kind of attitude. I told my friend to get over it and go grab something to eat.
    He was like: I understand American women do that, but these girls are Albanians, raised in Albania. How could they leave us here.
    For clarification, it’s a cultural norm back home where girls stick with you the whole night, even if you’re just a friend. It’s considered very offensive doing otherwise.
    All you guys thinking to go get a women from these traditional countries, the moment you bring her to the states, she’ll turn just like the rest, if not worse after experiencing the power and social freedom.

  7. The problem with introducing women into the workforce and men’s world in general is that we have legislated everything happening in public based on Male behavior and worldview. Women coming into male’s domains with equal rights, is the same as Uber getting into the market place. It’s a totally different behavior and way of doing business, so it’s not legislated and it is disrupting the market.

    For a man to get rich quickly, he can steal money or evade taxes, for whom we have the appropriate laws and penalties. If a woman wants to get rich, she can suck the right dick, marry it, divorce in a couple of years and get millions of $$$. The best wall street investors pale in comparison to this type of investment.

    The fact that the the BB side of hypergamy has been outsourced and centralized through the government/military/police/welfare doesn’t necessarily mean that the social contract between the genders should be broken. Just like we have legislated men’s burden of performance to favor women, we can also legislate female behavior to serve the MI.

    Have women pay special taxes for public services that are mostly male professions. Don’t force women to register for selective service like men, that would just lower the quality of our armed forces.
    Have them pay a “Freedom Tax” since it is men who have to put their life on the line.

    Put a special Tax/Fine on women who willingly decide to become single mothers through sperm bank, or by accidentally getting pregnant.

    Laws that protect Intellectual Property could be extended to a person’s Genome. His DNA holds proprietary genetic material that belongs to that man only. Using to create life without his permission would break the law.

    Or make money spent on dates as tax deductible… lol

    Etc…you get the idea. We might not be able to force Monogamy on people, but we can use law to increase men’s SMV in society.

  8. Back in the 1960’s (when the majority of infants were still born in wedlock), most US Hospital Nurseries decided to STOP routine testing of parental & newborn ABO blood types because of a dirty little secret:

    Of those infants born in wedlock, about 20% the newborns possessed ABO blood-type antigens that were incompatible with the blood-type of the stated Father, meaning that there was a cuckoldry rate of about 20%.

    Of course, times have changed dramatically since the 1960s. Currently in the EU & the US, only about 60% of infants are born in wedlock & almost 40% of infants are born to Single Mothers, meaning that up to 40% of all newborns now meet the old definition of cuckoldry by having questionable paternity.

    So, even though the 2% Cuckoldry rate quoted by the newer study is probably correct, Rollo is right to question the study’s accuracy, mostly because the definition of what qualifies as a Cuckold (and a Bastard) has changed so much.

  9. Have you ever heard about the studies that show widowers have a significant increase in mortality over married men their age, while widows have no significant increase in mortality over married women their age? This is pretty clear evidence of men’s love for women being stronger than women’s love for men.

  10. “Now, I understood there were leaders among men, but more like leaders of Alphas, rather than Leaders of betas.”

    In a more fleshed out socio-sexual hierarchy structure than the simple binary used ’round these parts, the leaders are Alpha and the “Alphas” being led are Beta. Beta, rather than being the low rank, is the second highest, the inner circle of the men that the Alpha leads. His right hand men.

    Charlemagne was Alpha. Roland was Beta because, no matter that he was a Lord in his own right, in his own house, he bowed his knee to and took command from Charlemagne ( and ultimately sacrificed himself to protect Charlemagne).

  11. Accepting back a cheater only lowers your value. I did this and all it did was signal to the girl that this guy has so few options he’s willing to accept what I personally feel ashamed about so obviously he couldn’t possibly be long term material…/or he’ll dump me when he comes to his senses…

  12. >Have women pay special taxes for public services that are mostly male professions.

    Can’t do it. Equal Protection clause. You need 3/4 of BOTH the House and Senate to Agree or 2/3 of the State Legislatures to agree that women should pay a special tax. No problem.

    >>>Put a special Tax/Fine on women who willingly decide to become single mothers

    Might be possible. All you have to do is cut back some of the welfare benefits. Fuck making them pay. First we need to stop paying THEM.

    >>>We might not be able to force Monogamy on people, but we can use law to increase men’s SMV in society.

    Now your on to something, except you can’t get laws passed until you pressure the people in power. Somebody needs to come up with a plan to force social change. Maybe a “Strike” would work. Anybody think a “Strike” might eventually get them to sit up off their vag and take notice? A femapocalypse.

  13. “… From the time paternity tests became more available and reliable, and men started using them to avoid paternity claims, the same argument has been made: it’s bad for the kids …”

    The ‘bad for the kids’ meme is played by the powers at be whenever it suits their end goals. Fault free divorce was pushed through in the 70s with a great deal of insistence that it wasn’t bad for kids. Thus it was only natural to insist that there be no official support for children during or after the divorce process. To suggest otherwise would have undermined their original premise, (this was reversed in later years when it was safe to do so).

    Today with gay marriage and gay parents bringing up children we are once again being informed by the powers at be that it is not bad for the kids. They have no proof of this, in fact there is much evidence to support that it is bad for kids, but they cannot allow this to once again undermine their current narrative.

    Of course, as Novaseeker has correctly identified here, they have no hesitation in waving the bad for kids flag if it will support their own agenda, in this case the banning of DNA paternity tests.

  14. I still struggle with the concept that most women actively try to acquire the ‘ best genes “.

    It may be subconscious in some manner I guess, But my eyeballs on the ground don’t see the best gene thing in action for a majority of women.

    Maybe I don’t fully understand the idea of best genetic material or something, but I see an awful lot of females getting knocked up by all manner of men, and from what I can tell a lot of these dudes didn’t hit any kind of genetic lottery what-so-ever.

    Maybe ” best genetics ” is highly subjective?

    Maybe the drive for the ” best ” gets overridden by estrus?

    Lol, I’ve seen a shitload of wedding/family pics at work, all over women’s walls and desks. Haven’t seen many females punch above their weight class, that’s for sure.

    Of course, I have no idea what these chicks did before marrying their hubbys. Maybe that’s where the rub comes in.

    Been paying a lot more attention since reading some of the concepts here. It is fascinating to say the least.

    Evidently women are failing at the gene chase for the most part. Or maybe the genes aren’t what they used to be? I dunno….

    It may be extreme bias on my part in some fashion. Collectively, women aren’t that damn bright. There are multi-millions of exceptions, but that still leaves an assload of ” meh ” chicks out in the wild.

    Myself, I have a stepdaughter. Her father is kind of in her life. Kind of. My stepdaughter was not ” raised ” by me from an early age, so we have an understanding that works. She has her father and I’m ” Blaximus ‘. He provided financial support for her until she was 18. He spoke to her occasionally and attended special occasions in her life once of twice.

    Personally I don’t see my situ as having saved anyone. I thought long and hard before marrying my wife, understanding that she was already a mom. It was both of our second marriage. I have 2 biological daughters. As far as paternity concerns, yeah, it was very, very important to me that my kids were my own biologically. In fact, I wanted 2 kids at a minimum and after my divorce I kind of gave that whole idea up. Didn’t want to go through the whole vetting process and I was soured on women in general.

    But I’m good. As good as one can be with a woman.

    I’ve witnessed paternity snafus during my lifetime. In most cases, the man had no clue until much later. Even now I know a young man that I delicately try to push in the direction of a dna test. He is totally clueless, but he’s also a shitty dad, so he may not last much longer. I’m watching this unfold from a safe distance.

    Useless anectdote #54986

    When I was 16 years old I was routinely having secret sex with a 20 year old ” friend “. We grew up together. Rollo you’ll get a kick out of this…maybe, she was a model for Bacardi. Her life-sized cutouts in a bikini graced all of the liquor retailers in the tri-state area.

    I’d moved out of state and lost physical contact with her. Some friends of mine notified me months later that she was pregnant. I got on a greyhound bus and made a 9 hour bus ride to see her for myself. She was indeed with child, but she told me not to worry, it wasn’t mine. I was insulted for the most part because I thought we were mostly exclusive in our time together. She said there was another guy, an older guy.

    I wanted to call bullshit. She assured me over and over, then said that she was moved that I came all the way back to find out what was going on. My friends weren’t so convinced. They saw her with some guy, but it was after I was gone. No one had seen him prior.

    Fast forward – she gave birth and I once again, donned the greyhound to see her and the baby. It was a baby boy. He looked exactly like her, no traces of the ” dad “. I met ” dad”. He was a city councilman, in his late 30’s. He came from some money and a long line of politicians. A wedding had been hastily thrown together and POOF!!! that was that.

    By then I was all of 17. It haunted me for years afterwards. At that time I didn’t know about paternity and dna was a dream back then. My close friends knew the story, but I didn’t tell a soul until I was engaged to my first wife.

    The timeline of events still don’t add up. Math, it’s a motherfucker.

    Ever so often I still wonder.

  15. @Blax

    Maybe I don’t fully understand the idea of best genetic material or something, but I see an awful lot of females getting knocked up by all manner of men, and from what I can tell a lot of these dudes didn’t hit any kind of genetic lottery what-so-ever.

    They subconsciously determine genetics by following evolved cues that indicate genetic fitness. Cues can be faked. Evolved triggers can be tricked. Plus you’re a man going of what you think women should find valuable and judging what they do find valuable by that standard.

  16. Blax….

    LOL… Great story… I’m thinking as well there may one day be a knock on the door and some 30 yo is saying “dad!”…. There is a show out now about this “Grandfathered”…

    As to best genetics… It always comes down to 3 traits… Dynamic, passionate and authentic.

    Yeah there may be some slip ups over time, but in general its these 3 things. Not the way guys look at Alpha… For sure…

    But then cats are not dogs after all…

  17. @ Sun

    Lol…then these guys have been faking and tricking their asses off. They should call David Blaine and Chris Angel.

    Good for them!!!

  18. @ Sentient

    Just between you and me, the girl was a damn 9, 9.5 ( I don’t believe in 10″s ). Hell, her Mom was hot as hell too. I wasn’t afraid about her being pregnant. I made sure she took ” both barrels ” during sex.

    Which goes to show how foolish young cats can be.

    Okay on the genetics. I was thinking height, eye color, build… all physical stuff. I picked the mother(s) of my daughters using those as some of the measurements. : )

    So according to you and Sun, you’re ” signaling “, not necessarily possessing a physical asset.

    Women…..

  19. I found the link to the Neandertal gene very informative,in that link there is another study that suggests that while modern woman couldn’t reproduce w/ Neandertal males Because of a Y chromosome that would cause miscarriage the modern male could reproduce W/ Neandertal females again supporting Hypergamy theories.
    Speaking for myself a”whorehouse raised little fucker”I know of two probable children of my own that were raised by unknowing cucks.
    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is likely a duck.
    I never minded so much raising and supporting other men’s children until they became feminized and started showing blatant disrespect to me in my own home and were backed by their mother,at this point it was that I began to feel duped or cucked if you will.
    By my understanding of the definition of cuckoldry and my own experiences the percentages are more in the high 40s.

  20. ….another albeit more detailed example of what you have already repeatedly ascertained and hashed out multiple times previously. Certainly you are correct in pointing out these facts, “connecting the dots” and providing numerous evidence to prove the truth of your observations. And also certainly, the first step towards a significant social change concerning this is the education of men and women. Men need to be made aware of how they are being duped the true source of their frustration; women need to be made aware that men are aware. However, once the problems and nature of biased feminine primacy is recognized by a large enough majority, what will change it? What exists to make the pendulum swing back other than men’s dissatisfaction? It seems that change is historically facilitated not by disenchantment alone but also by tangible physiological influencers. We were brought to where we are by “social movements” that would not have been possible without such phenomena as:

    1. mass male death in WW1 prior to womens right to vote (the female vote became a siginificant opportunity for the corporate political elite after mass extermination of the male population during WW1)

    and

    2. siginificant improvements in abortion procedures and the invention of the birth control pill prior to the sexual revolution of the late 1960s.

    and

    3. continued improvements in technology and mechanization steadily reducing the need for physical strength and stamina traditionally provided by males to generate provisions as women are inferior in this regard.

    These real phenomenon (1,2 and 3 above) as opposed to emotional phenomenon, undoubtedly significantly contributed to forming the social sexualogical dynamic we have today; if not outright making it possible. Very likely, today’s dynamic would not exist today had those real phenomenon not occurred. What real phenomena is there today to facilitate a change that will benefit the masculine imperative and provide at least an equilibrium?

    It is important to consider reality and although emotions are real and certainly an influence, the most powerful influence always emanates from the tangible physiological realm, not the psychological. Womens Machiavellian maniplulitave duplicitous nature has its own power, but it is powerless against man without the physical reality that man will be locked up or murdered by the state if he gets angry enough to beat the shit out of a woman for double crossing him. Along with many other “crimes” he can also be incarcerated for not paying child support even if the child is not his. His physical life conditions are ruled by laws enacted that control his physical living conditions.

    Bear this consideration of reality in mind as you finish reading these comments.

    As we rehash all this, re-analyze it, and repeat it to ourselves and each other, at what point in time do we cross the threshold of acquiring awarness and enter the realm of victimhood? At what point do we shirk our masculinity and adopt for ourselves the same characteristics of the duplicitous conniving female? Are we to be the men we were born to be, or are we to become nothing more than drama kings competing with drama queens?

    Your work is excellent for the most part and the unveiling of “hypergamy” for the majority of men and women is necessary. Yet, your are like the wizard of oz orchestrating a dynamic hiding behind the curtain. Your are the wizard of hypergamy hiding behind the pseudonym of “Rollo Tommasi”. We are all like little wizards hiding behind our pseudonyms. For this reason, we have smaller balls than Sheryl Sandberg who makes no qualms about what she says and hides behind nothing. We can argue that she is well supported, even promoted, by the current sociolegal establishment. However, such rationalization only further supports her cause and further confirms our failure to withstand a most fundamental macro shit test.

  21. Woohoo! My first comment featured in a post! Now I’m finally a regular in the comments…

  22. @Blax

    Men fall for fake tits, make up, and bleach blonde hair all the time.

    Humans are generally just kinda stupid and running on auto pilot. If you don’t force your intellectual brain to process what your lizard brain is seeing you’re gonna have a bad time.

  23. There is no better example of women’s opportunistic love, indeed, women’s innate solipsistic nature, than the phrase “it shouldn’t matter to the man who the biological father of the child really is – he just needs to accept it and support it.”

    And there is no greater evidence of the Feminine Imperative’s purpose than a society structured to ensure that men and women believe this, as well as perpetuate it.

    Indeed, Rollo!

    And the point is that this is the case even if the rate of cuckoldry, in the traditional sense of a man unwittingly raising another man’s kids, is only at 2-3%. The attitude of women — and the author of that article is by far not alone among women in her views — toward what should happen in these cases reflects something much deeper. It’s that despite the fact that this specific kind of cuckolding may be relatively uncommon, many women have a visceral reaction to do anything about it which would be in any way objectively equitable to the male reproductive interest. That idealism simply doesn’t exist — it’s realism all the way down, expressed as raw female power to determine paternity at whim, and the rest is simply wrapping paper consisting of rationalizing justification for that exercise of raw power. Hard to get more opportunistic/pragmatic than that, honestly.

  24. “I’d expect from men (albeit a religious one in this instance) steeped in a feminine-primary social order and conditioned from birth to affirm his Blue Pill existence.”
    Well that is how i got here.

  25. @NBTM
    While men could produce extensive articles on the detrimental effects of feminism,These would all have the opposite effect than intended thereby furthering the cause of feminism.
    Masculinity is not at this time the popular cause of modern society.

  26. @sruffinbox
    “Masculinity is not at this time the popular cause of modern society.”
    Gregory colbert went over a lot of this in AShes to snow…

  27. Cuckolding is one of those social events that is seemingly purpose designed to stump scientific examination.

    Indeed, maybe that’s the evolutionary point. It’s my personal,very anecdotal experience that women unconsciously/subconsciously plan cuckoldry in ways which ensure getting busted is zilch. Case in point- Latina woman married to a black dude generally seeks out dark skinned Chads. A white guy won’t be as attractive to her ,because 9 months later the jig would be up. Dark skinned Alphas shed jump all over for the flip side of that reason.

    Taking it further, if the kid looks marginally similar to the Beta he’d have no reason to question the paternity unless Mother screwed up. There’s probably tons of cases where people are in similar states as the Archbishop- but they’ll never hit the scientific system because Ma took the secret to the grave, and no one got DNA tested .

    This last item brings me to a troubling topic also raised by Robin Baker’s book “Baby Wars” ; if Mom bangs Chad and hides the baby under the false paternity of a Beta who she later on has kids of different genders , shit is gonna hit the fan come puberty. Why? Because the sexy product of Chad will only be half related to the other kids, and barely connected to the rest of the family.

    How many incestuous liaisons over time are the result of someone’s Mom cucking Dad , resulting in strangers being raised under the false idea they’re related ? Example-if Mom has a daughter by Chad, then that daughter matures, as far as the unfortunate Betabux is concerned biologically she’s a strange teenage girl.

  28. @NBTM, you know, there is no end to the blogs of Purple Pill life coaches pandering to a female readership by passive-aggressively writing to men about how they ought to Man-Up by acting in accordance with ‘what women really want’.

    There is no end to the blogs and books written about mindset and psyching a man’s positive thinking of himself to inflate him to unrealistic self-impressions that have no basis in his actual circumstance.

    There’s no end to the YouTube MGTOW isolationists who vlog under assumed names who offer no solutions beyong “the only winning move is not to play the game”.

    And there’s no end to the pity party and impotent attempts to lobby for the (human) rights of men from MRAs.

    Yet, despite all of that, you are regularly compelled to offer up your weekly drive-by post of pseudo-intellectual calls-to-action here. I wonder why that is?

  29. I wonder why that is?

    Mysterious, innit? Seems like he’d fit in better at Bites or whatever Bloody Sunshine is calling herself this week, y’know?

  30. Rollo said “80% of women bred with 20%”

    I think the studies actually showed a 80/40% women/men genetic heritage. Still though, men passed half as many genes on as women, and that’s some majorly disproportionate shiz.

  31. @Novaseeker, @Rollo: with respect to women not caring who the bio-parent is – but only when it concerns the man…
    I posted about this on the other thread.

    In any situation when the “mother” would know or find out later they are not the bio-mother things change and it is possible to see their hypocrisy.

    There are even many classic stories where a main antagonist is an evil stepmother.

    To make it more similar to what men have to go through…
    How many barren/sterile women are 100% ok with adopting, or would agree without qualms and without feeling bad about it, to have their husband impregnate another woman (either the old-fashion way or artificial insemination)?

    Furthermore, in the rare instances where babies are swapped at birth and it is found out later on, is it not just the fathers that care about it…
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babies_switched_at_birth#In_reality

  32. @Sun Wukong – Cues can be faked. Evolved triggers can be tricked.

    Not only can they be tricked and faked, they don’t really work anymore to begin with. Womens selection criteria were formed in tiny semi nomadic tribes with a stable hierarchy and an innate, obvious and largely unchanging apex.

    Whilst other commentators have said that men can be fooled by fake tits and they are right, mens sexual signalling isn’t semi randomly being fired off by things such as – contextual alpha but otherwise useless coffee shop boss, two pints brave no hopers making a pass at the right moment, mistaking the many people a drug dealer meets and greets selling drugs with genuine social proof, arousal at the thought of serial killing, falling for the bartender because he’s surrounded by pretty girls, being impressed by a man because the first vision of him is when he’s up a flight of stairs looking down at her or in a crowd etc etc

    The list of things which can arouse and attract a women that are fired off randomly and contextually in the modern world which really have nothing whatsoever to do with actual genetic fitness is laughably ridiculous (and its getting worse, not better.) Game lets you learn how to pull those triggers on purpose for your own ends, but they are being fired all the time just by the environment anyway.

    To relate it to the article – historical rates of infidelity and mistaken paternity tell us relatively little about how the modern world is working. Women 300 years ago who had their bi weekly or monthly tingle for alpha whilst on some bumfuck farm miles from nowhere couldn’t do much of anything about it without massive consequences and they still managed to get knocked up by alpha men. Now they can do something about it anytime they like with zero repurcussions.

    So they do.

    @NBTM – 3. continued improvements in technology and mechanization steadily reducing the need for physical strength and stamina traditionally provided by males to generate provisions as women are inferior in this regard.

    Google think they can ditch 30-40% of the workforce before 2040. Mostly in manual handling, driving and what’s left of factory jobs. If you’ve seen how far they have gotten with their manual handling robots you’ll know what I mean. Buh bye betas.

    Not even needed for donkey work. A point is coming where men won’t even be able go “on strike” because to go on strike you need a job first.

  33. “Only 1-2%. See? We DO have your children when you fuck us after we marry you”.
    Okay then, toots. If that’s the case, you won’t have a problem with mandatory paternity testing.

  34. I don’t see what all the fuss is about dating single mothers? Not all men feel the desire to breed. In fact, I would suggest that the smartest men choose not to breed in this day and age. Why would you want to have kids that are a massive burden on your time, finances and mental health? Much better to just get with a woman who has already got breeding out of her system so she doesn’t want a kid out of you. Then you get the sex without having to commit to the woman or the kids. I’m 50, have played the field for decades, have had many desirable lovers and am currently in a NSA arrangement with a hot single mumma in her 40’s. Previously my lovers tended to be 10-15 years younger, often kidless 20-something babes. I’m proudly red pill alpha and women just love it. Being cuckolded is really being in a relationship with a woman who is openly fucking someone else, though if you were bringing up someone else’s kids you thought were your own, you probably deserve it…

  35. I am reminded of the Chris Rock joke. “A mans lie is ‘I was at Tony’s house’… A woman’s lie is, ‘it’s your baby’.
    1 in 50 fathers is still too high to be lied to about being a father.
    If a woman says no to a paternity test, feelings aside, you have the answer right there. Who doesn’t take a test? One who knows they will fail it.

  36. Young men should avoid getting involved with a pregnant woman or a woman who has kids (already), period.

    I’m giving this advice to younger men on a regular basis because our society (and court system) has become one that:

    Doesn’t care about the rights of everyone (meaning men).
    Legislation is constantly pushing for men to be the responsible party while women only have to “say so”..no law required.
    It’s not in the best interest of the children (or the man who isn’t the father). It holds women accountable for their actions.

    Times have changed from 100 years ago with the rise of feminism plus birth control. Laws have changed. It’s in a man’s best interest to reward women who have no children and disregard women who do have women.

    The message to women (like it was 100 years ago): you’re a liability if you’re single with children so make better decisions (be a little more responsible). This move has to start with men rejecting women (with kids) and putting out the important message: if you have kids then – Next!

  37. @qsajaq

    Who doesn’t take a test? One who knows they will fail it.

    The vast majority of women would not. If they break ranks, their sisters who are lying would lose cover. The social convention used will be that “You don’t trust me; you’re a horrible man,” unless they’re not married. In the unmarried case she’ll take it if she’s pretty sure its his and she wants to lock him down. Happened to a friend of mine.

    Of course, then he was dumb enough to knock her up twice more one of which ended with a stillbirth. I’ve been shaking my head the whole course of their relationship since I spotted early on that she was a head case that would manipulate the shit out of him.

  38. @Agent

    True, he had to ignore some seduction advice, like “If she won’t sleep with you by the third date, forget about her,” but—as far as I can tell—many “seduction techniques” are simply sensible courtship techniques

    Purple as fuck.

    I’ve never waited for more than 3 dates for a woman to want to fuck, even before TRP. I instinctively grasped a woman in those cases wasn’t that in to me and gave up on her.

  39. Blax…

    ” I made sure she took ” both barrels ” during sex.”

    damn man… if you have TWO cocks… well you win the Alpha of the Board Award for sure…

  40. The male peacock’s long and brightly colored feathers puts him at a survival disadvantage in nature. None the less, they exist because for female peacocks, they are a sign of genetic advantage. Similarly, the brightly colored feathers of birds are a survival disadvantage for males, but they conveys genetic advantage to female birds. These colors exist in pair bonded bird species only because the females cheat on their pair bonded partner who then raises their offspring. It has been reported that when male birds observe their partner cheating, they abandon the nest.

    Similarly, multiple studies have shown that human females are driven to seek out masculine males during estrus. Women like to harp on all of the men who cheat, but for every cheating man, there is a cheating woman or a woman who knowingly is sleeping with another woman’s man.

    What we are seeing in this hard shift toward the FI is the end times of the western democracies. Masculine energy is generally based on some form of 1) courage, 2) loyalty, 3) mastery of skills and people, and 4) self sacrifice. These are very difficult to achieve, which is why men throughout history have shifted toward the feminine when they are raised in secure environments. This is also why men today are so cooperative with the FI. They no longer have the courage to stand up for their own interests, but they still have the impulses of loyalty and self sacrifice.

    The intense competition between the nations of the western democracies might be why the western democracies have dominated the world for as long as they have. However, nations rise and fall. Europe has become a land of safety and plenty.

    With nearly 60% of babies raised out of wedlock, the western democracies will increasingly look like the inner cities of the US. Children raised by single mothers do not do well by any measure. Just look to the inner cities of the US to understand what single mothers can do to once great manufacturing centers.

    Men and women raised in dangerous and resource scarce environments value masculine energy, which is required for survival in those environments. It is these men who are migrating to Europe, and will be Europe’s next rulers. We see these types of shifts though out history, but most seem not to understand it when it’s happening in the moment. We wonder why Rome would let itself disintegrate, but not ask ourselves the very same question. The consequence for Europe after Rome was a 1,000 years of poverty. There is no reason to believe our fate will be significantly different.

    It’s interesting that the long term benefit to women is marriage and cooperation, but I suppose, it is the female hindbrain who is making the decisions. For that reason, great civilizations will continue to rise and fall. Security and abundance will continue to weaken the men of great civilizations who will then let women decide what is in the best interest of women even at the expense of a great civilization. Scarcity with the resulting competition will strengthen men who will create the next great civilization and / or rub out the existing great civilizations. This cycle has been repeated for thousands of years, and shows no sign of ending.

  41. Radium

    “Masculine energy is generally based on some form of 1) courage, 2) loyalty, 3) mastery of skills and people, and 4) self sacrifice.”

    I’ve considered the root of masculine energy to be truth, logos… the truth of pain and a dollar bill.

  42. @kfg
    For every great king, you have countless of others that never lived up to their title. Alphas come in many shapes and Beyond a certain point we’ll just discuss semantics. And I agree that men can be grouped into more than just Alpha&Beta. My point is that we can increase the average Alpha-ness in men(call it RP awareness if you want,) given the right environment.

    @bluepillprofessor

    Just wait until the feminist threat gets closer to the Elite. Only then you’ll see some change. The power of Betas can a real threat to them, soon they’ll have to restructure society to prevent the Betas from messing it up for everyone.

  43. @ SJF, YaReally, ludiamondz, rest

    Thanks for the input on the last post. Had a pisser of a day yesterday with the GF and am still in recovery. I’m exhausted.

    FWIW in relation to this post, she’s told me before she doesn’t care if I don’t want to raise the kid, that she’d settle for me getting her pregnant and then me leaving and her raising the baby on her own. That she just wants to have my baby.

    Obviously with current legislation, that wouldn’t happen and I’d end up paying for the kid until they turned 18. But that’s beside the point. Just her saying that alone really threw me off. I didn’t make anything of it at the time, but in my head I was thinking “What?”

    Also, I’ve pointed out to her that the idea of marriage and kids was way, way, way too far beyond where I am now to consider, and in five years will still probably be way too far beyond where I am then to consider.

    She argued that she doesn’t want commitment because it has anything to do with marriage or kids. That it has nothing to do with that at all. That she just wants to ‘feel secure.’

    I’ve come back before with “Well what’s the point of commitment if marriage and kids aren’t an issue? If commitment has nothing to do with that then it just complicates everything and makes it harder and more complicated instead of easier and simple.”

    I’m paraphrasing there, and these are older conversations by the way (we didn’t talk about any of this stuff last night), but that’s basically what I said and basically my take on it. I was also more or less calling her out on BB.

    And then she intermittently comes out with things like that, saying she wants to have kids with me, and getting upset seeing her friends getting married and how she might never get married herself, or have kids, then comes right back to how she only wants commitment to ‘feel secure,’ not because she has marriage or kids in mind.

    My foresight is telling me that she DOES want to feel secure. Which basically means:

    She wants the security of a monogamous relationship that will allow her to ‘cash in’ before she hits The Wall, and if I don’t offer her a monogamous relationship that would allow her to do that, she’s going to leave and find someone who will provide it.

    Her claims that she’s madly in love with me, that she deeply cares about me and wants the best for me, etc. — which I see as emotionally abusive, especially for someone like myself who has so many issues — don’t mean anything in that light.

    As soon as she realizes that I’m not BB material, she’ll leave me for someone who is. She’s been screening me very hard for this, and as time goes on and I don’t give in to committing to her, she’s getting more and more stressed out.

    Way beyond normal Dread or things that would add passion to a relationship, too. At least I think so. I don’t have the experience to say, really, but it seems that way.

    I’m having a hard time understanding Dread, because while it has worked to some extent with this girl, she’s heavy into the Transition Phase, and on top of that has potential cluster B issues.

    If she even sees me looking at another girl she’ll get extremely upset, not ramped up competition anxiety, but going silent and getting angry at me and not wanting to talk to me or have anything to do with me.

    But then we end up having crazy hot sex later anyway. I don’t know how to gauge Dread. Like whether it’s normal for girls to get really pissed off and cold shoulder you before the crazy sex comes in.

    She is giving me shit about looking at other women, explicitly even told me last night that if I want to have sex with women other than her, that she doesn’t want to be with me, after questioning me about what girls I was looking at, and why, if I wanted to have sex with them, if I want to be exclusive with her, and that she needs to know, etc.

    All in all it isn’t really that crazy. It does seem like questions just about any girl would ask. I wouldn’t know because I don’t have any other experiences. But I feel like my reaction to these questions is what dictates her behavior more than anything (although I know there is a limit especially with the Transition Phase and BB taking precedent over AF)

    Despite all that, there’s at least one other guy I know she’s good friends with who makes good money and has explicitly told her he’ll take care of her. He’s pissed off she’s not having sex with him, and she’s told me how she’s told him to fuck off, and told him she’s not interested in him that way.

    She uses that as justification for having him over, like he’s slept over more than a few times. She still talks to her ex boyfriends who are still in love with her. She says she has absolutely zero sexual interest in any of them at all, and uses this as justification for spending time with guys she knows are into her while she’s claiming that she wants monogamous commitment exclusively from me.

    I mean, come on.

    The tricky thing is I can’t really call her out on this, because solipsism guarantees that she won’t see any fault in it at all. Trying to explain my position is completely useless. I’ve maybe called her out on it once, and she just came back vehemently with “I’d never think of sleeping with any of these guys, I have zero attraction to them at all.”

    I could say the same thing about those girls I was checking out and imagining pounding the shit out of when we were out together, lol.

    Solipsism gives her a free pass. Basically, her desire to have Beta Orbiters while wanting exclusive commitment from me is no different than my desire to have side chicks while having her as my primary.

    But she doesn’t want to be a ‘primary’ and is morally offended by the idea. She told me last night if I expect her to ‘wait around’ while I go ‘fuck five other girls,’ that’s not going to happen. She needs commitment and she needs it now.

    And yet she’s seeing other guys on a regular basis, and despite the fact that they are obviously sexual options for her, solipsism guarantees that she has no fault in that, and that she isn’t contradicting herself.

    She is outright lying to me, but because of solipsism, she doesn’t see it as lying. It’s crazy how self-justifying Hypergamy is.

    But it does seem very similar to guys spinning plates, ironically. Women and (Alpha) Men seem like Yin and Yang, two sides of the same coin.

    Anyway, she’s telling me that she loves me and cares about me, and at the same time has made it clear that if I don’t give in to her ultimatum, she won’t hesitate to end everything with us.

    So I’ve just been buying time. Of course I want to fuck other girls, but I’m not fucking other girls right now. I’m not telling her that, just like she’s not telling me the truth about her Beta Orbiters.

    Effectively we’re doing the same thing. I’m using the same covert strategy that she’s using.

    I’m just trying to stay at least one step ahead here, because the reality is that I have major work to do on myself. A big part of why I’m keeping this going isn’t even because of just the sex, but the support I’m getting.

    Putting the commitment BS aside, she’s helped me get some business by spreading the word about me to her friends and telling everyone she knows about what I do, and how I’m really good at it. I can stay over at her place whenever I need to if I don’t have anywhere else to go. I get nervous about driving long distances and she’s always willing to go with me anywhere if I ask her to.

    Look at how petty shit like that is. I appreciate it so much because for one part of me feels like I don’t deserve it, and also because I’m not used to getting any help like that, and so she seems really special to me for caring about me, because no one else has done stuff for me like that.

    It feeds majorly into the ONE-itis.

    Without getting into too much detail, I have some birth defects that left my skeleton kind of fucked up, which messes up the surrounding muscles, and I have chronic pain and tension. She’s certified in massage therapy and that’s worked wonders for me. Never had a professional massage in my life and she offers that to me regularly. So that’s another thing keeping me hooked.

    Not to mention that having someone who’s aware of some of the physical issues I have, and says they care about them, and is helping me work with them, feeds more into the ONE-itis.

    She certainly doesn’t seem to have ONE-itis for me in the same way. If that were the case she wouldn’t be so ready to say she’s going to leave me if I tell her that I don’t want a committed relationship.

    If she was really in love with me for who I am, she’d accept me for who I am and stay with me, because that’s who I am.

    Also, the double standard is clarifying a little more to me.

    Why shouldn’t she be free to fuck other guys if she wants to?

    The point is she should be, but women naturally will not WANT to fuck other guys when they’re happy with the guy they’re with.

    Whereas men are programmed to want to fuck as many women as possible, REGARDLESS of how ‘hot’ the woman they’re with is.

    This is what she’s getting tripped up on. Thinking she’s not good enough for me, not pretty enough, etc.

    I’ve told her it would be the same with any girl. She could be the hottest supermodel in the world and I still wouldn’t want to commit to her, because I think there are inherent problems with monogamy. It has nothing to do with how hot or young or whatever a girl is. Men are hard wired to want to have sex with as many women as possible.

    Anyway, I’m rambling now, but thanks for all the input. I’m heavily processing a lot of stuff right now, and you guys have given me plenty of good stuff to think about and perspectives I wouldn’t have had otherwise.

    @ YaReally

    It does help me feel better to know everything I’m writing about here is common. Other guys can relate to it. And in the future I’ll be beyond all this, just as I’ve been beyond a lot of other stuff I’ve written about.

    It does help me process things to get them out in writing. It also helps to know I’m “not unique,” as my dad always told me. Not as a swipe against me, but that the issues I’ve had are common to everyone.

    It FEELS exclusive to me, simply because this is the first time I’ve ever experienced something like this.

    But get this: one of my best friends has slept with over 1200 women, and he still ended up getting divorce raped.

    And blindsided with it no less. 1200 women. Never had any problems with pickup after he figured it out at around 16 years old. But he still got fucked over in a marriage despite all his experience.

    His pickup game? Very strong. LTR relationship game? Apparently not so much.

    It helps me feel better to know this shit isn’t easy. When I get discouraged I remind myself that I’m already ahead of most guys, and most guys literally have no idea what the fuck they’re doing at all.

    As for male mentors, until I hang out with someone regularly IRL, this forum has been a great resource, and the only place I’ve gotten any reasonable advice about any of this stuff.

  44. I have an issue in my relationship I hope I can get some feedback on. I’ve been seeing a girl for over three years. Gamed her, have kept a masculine frame, continually passed shit tests. Anyway, our sex is normally great. She likes it rough, specifically being choked. There have been a few times I’ve let off because I’ve thought it can’t be healthy to be choked for that long and that vigorously. When from behind she will push her throat into my hand with a lot of force. But, when I initiated the other night in bed it was a little weird. She was crying as I went from behind, at least when I went deep, as she normally likes. This happened once or twice before, where I didn’t notice so much because her face was stuffed into a pillow. Like comedian Jim Jeffries says, crying can help you come occasionally, but it’s not something you regularly want to hear during sex. Really killed the experience for me, even though she was wet as fuck. However, I’m not going to ask her about it, why she was crying. I don’t want to be the guy who “doesn’t get it.” Anybody have any input on this, why she would cry like that? I understand that her crying doesn’t mean she wasn’t enjoying it. Bitches be crazy. Early in our relationship she told me she was once raped, the kind by someone she knew or something. I always had an inkling to actually find out if the story was true but never took the steps to do so.

  45. Softek

    I’m having a hard time understanding Dread, because while it has worked to some extent with this girl, she’s heavy into the Transition Phase, and on top of that has potential cluster B issues.

    If she even sees me looking at another girl she’ll get extremely upset, not ramped up competition anxiety, but going silent and getting angry at me and not wanting to talk to me or have anything to do with me.

    Dread elicits a reaction… that’s it. Her reaction to your dread is designed by her to get you back in orbit. Her rolodex play as HABD would say…

    The rolodex is based on not her but what works on you Starbuck…

    So maybe she tried the “sex him back into orbit” (#1 go to rolodex play of all time) a few times but that didn’t work to get her what she wanted (commitment) so she tries #2, #3 etc. Seems from your frantic and lengthy posts she has found something that works… silence and anger and drama!

    There you go.. this is how it works. figure out your response. (I’ve already suggested you just dump her… )

    Have fun!

  46. A big part of why I’m keeping this going isn’t even because of just the sex, but the support I’m getting.

  47. @Softek

    Bro, thanks for sharing this… a disturbing but predictable example of AWALT.

    I’m honestly confused that you haven’t broken this off yet. You can clearly see this is a train wreck… when are you going to jump off and save yourself?

    Rollo has nailed our current state with Open Hypergamy… this girl has openly, unashamedly stated her intentions. If she can’t lock you down directly, she’ll either force your financial support or find some other beta schmuck to cuckold… fuck, you can’t make this shit up!

    Please, stop having sex with this girl and ghost her!

  48. If some guy is with 1200 chicks and gets divorced raped I do blame him for picking poorly.

    That kind of guy is looking for “someone special” and doesn’t respect the women he can bed easily. He can likely get a variety of good looking women, so that’s not an issue, but he “falls for” one who spikes him more, is more interesting. Who is crazy and manipulative. ‘Cause the others are just too boring for him at that point.

    I think there are guys who can attract women easily, who game for a while, but who can see through the game itself and know to use different criteria for choosing a LTR. The 1200 chicks guy who is then settling down is too addicted to the game itself to be able to distance himself.

    As far as cucking goes, the two real life situations I know of the men had no problem attracting women. One of them got a second wife 20 years younger after the first one got knocked up by someone else. So I’m fairly skeptical of the idea that women have no agency, they’re all the same and can all be manipulated, and if you run into a problem the man’s game is at fault. That idea is an ego boost to the male population, since it provides the hope that all the world can be under our control if we just make the right moves. That’s why I doubt the idea, because of the seductiveness of it.

  49. @Softek

    Watching your posts on here feels like I’m getting a visit from the Ghost of Relationships Past.

    Seriously, I was you but I didn’t have the info and the dudes we have here to help. Don’t make the mistakes I made. Everybody here saying to NEXT her ass is absolutely right.

    No pussy is worth what this chick is putting you through (and by extension what you’re putting yourself through). Move on already.

  50. @Softek

    Sorry to say bud but if you are having relationship issues and you know some guy who has slept with 1200 women, it would take a miracle for him to be not fucking your GF already, or more likely to have fucked her already, got bored and moved on.

    She didn’t start nagging at you in earnest shortly after she met him, by any chance, did she?

    Don’t want to be harsh but this is the way it goes sometimes. I change my advice from pivot her to run the fuck away and dont look back.

  51. @Softek

    “She argued that she doesn’t want commitment because it has anything to do with marriage or kids. That it has nothing to do with that at all. That she just wants to ‘feel secure.’ ”

    = FI in play…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_tactics

    if you give in to ‘commitment’… next up is a ‘ring’… bc she needs THAT to feel ‘secure’…lol…

    And then she intermittently comes out with things like that, saying she wants to have kids with me, and getting upset seeing her friends getting married and how she might never get married herself, or have kids, then comes right back to how she only wants commitment to ‘feel secure,’ not because she has marriage or kids in mind.

    you: so, get commitment from one of your other bf’s… now, suck my c*k…lol…

    you seem to have some good self-knowledge (and props on that… bc most BP guys would have been flattered enough to have caved in by now…lol)…BUUUUT…

    I’m having a hard time understanding Dread, because while it has worked to some extent with this girl, she’s heavy into the Transition Phase, and on top of that has potential cluster B issues.

    dread only works of you actually HAVE options to exercise… and she knows that you don’t… bc you haven’t… = she’s the prize that you are not willing to give up… and you have spun up a guard dog situ… which looks remarkably like cluster B…

    My foresight is telling me that she DOES want to feel secure. Which basically means:

    She wants the security of a monogamous relationship that will allow her to ‘cash in’ before she hits The Wall,

    OR an alpha stud that doesn’t put up with her shit and actually exercises his other options… which he actually has…lol… either one is ‘secure’ to her… lol… you are just pinging both her AF and BB algorithms… and her hindbrain/hamster can’t sort that out without massive shit testing…

    If she even sees me looking at another girl she’ll get extremely upset, not ramped up competition anxiety, but going silent and getting angry at me and not wanting to talk to me or have anything to do with me.

    = guard dog situ…

    But then we end up having crazy hot sex later anyway. I don’t know how to gauge Dread. Like whether it’s normal for girls to get really pissed off and cold shoulder you before the crazy sex comes in.

    = guard dog situ…

    She is giving me shit about looking at other women, explicitly even told me last night that if I want to have sex with women other than her, that she doesn’t want to be with me, after questioning me about what girls I was looking at, and why, if I wanted to have sex with them, if I want to be exclusive with her, and that she needs to know, etc.

    the next salami slice is getting you to admit that you don’t actually have any options… but she can’t ‘just tell you’… lol… bc that would ruin her illusion… see ‘Just Get It’ post…

    All in all it isn’t really that crazy. It does seem like questions just about any girl would ask.

    = FI in play…lol…

    Despite all that, there’s at least one other guy I know she’s good friends with who makes good money and has explicitly told her he’ll take care of her. He’s pissed off she’s not having sex with him, and she’s told me how she’s told him to fuck off, and told him she’s not interested in him that way.

    She uses that as justification for having him over, like he’s slept over more than a few times. She still talks to her ex boyfriends who are still in love with her. She says she has absolutely zero sexual interest in any of them at all, and uses this as justification for spending time with guys she knows are into her while she’s claiming that she wants monogamous commitment exclusively from me.

    lol…

    ok, i’m just going to summarize the rest…lol

    negotiating desire…
    Plan B…
    Open Hypergamy…
    subcomms in play… (= she really does know, even if you don’t tell her…)
    watch what she does, not what she says…
    blah, blah… lol…

    you’re preaching to the choir here… but, our ‘AMEN’ is going to be ‘spin more plates’…lol… note – you don’t have to give her up… but you do NEED to actually have some options… and the first step is to at least appear to have/exercise some… so, take a couple of days off.. or not…lol…

    read YaReally’s post…

    oh, look! the pretty fire… i wonder if it’s fun to touch… lol…

    but, seriously, it doesn’t sound like she WANTS to leave, but you need to just pick one (AF or BB) and present yourself as THAT (and not a mix…)… that’s the ONLY way she is going to feel ‘secure’… and stop shit testing…

    good luck!

  52. “this is the first time I’ve ever experienced something like this. ”

    she is not acting very cool. period. cool gfs basically do the opposite of everything she’s doing

    “Just her saying that alone really threw me off. ”

    it should have. when it gets to the point of women saying stuff like this out loud it means trouble. usually they just act without verbalizing. if a girl wants your baby she gets pregnant. she doesn’t tell you about it first.

    with women, planning = trouble. she should be following your plans, not making her own

    “Never had a professional massage in my life and she offers that to me regularly. So that’s another thing keeping me hooked. ”

    yup. feels so good. especially with happy endings. fortunately that service can be procured easily. “unlicensed bodywork” etc.

    “She wants the security of a monogamous relationship that will allow her to ‘cash in’ before she hits The Wall, and if I don’t offer her a monogamous relationship that would allow her to do that, she’s going to leave and find someone who will provide it.”

    you said it. good luck.

  53. @softek

    “Also, I’ve pointed out to her that the idea of marriage and kids was way, way, way too far beyond where I am now to consider, and in five years will still probably be way too far beyond where I am then to consider.
    She argued that she doesn’t want commitment because it has anything to do with marriage or kids. That it has nothing to do with that at all. That she just wants to ‘feel secure.’”

    don’t listen to her. don’t listen to anything she says, she’s just crazy.

    i’m not a pyschologist or anything but she sounds like bad news and she’s only going to fuck you over with a ton of this ‘say one thing then do the opposite’ shit later. ask me how i know….

    just run, bro.

    “Her claims that she’s madly in love with me, that she deeply cares about me and wants the best for me, etc. — which I see as emotionally abusive, especially for someone like myself who has so many issues — don’t mean anything in that light.
    As soon as she realizes that I’m not BB material, she’ll leave me for someone who is. She’s been screening me very hard for this, and as time goes on and I don’t give in to committing to her, she’s getting more and more stressed out.”

    well, this is normal. it doesn’t mean she wants you for BB just because she wants you to make a commitment. there is NO GIRL who will let you just fuck them forever without some kind of a commitment — yes, even an OLTR is a type of commitment.

    “If she even sees me looking at another girl she’ll get extremely upset, not ramped up competition anxiety, but going silent and getting angry at me and not wanting to talk to me or have anything to do with me.
    But then we end up having crazy hot sex later anyway. I don’t know how to gauge Dread. Like whether it’s normal for girls to get really pissed off and cold shoulder you before the crazy sex comes in.”

    she’s bad news, dude. she’s battle hardened and has a strong frame. you run dread and she runs her crazy right back. then she forces attention from you with the ‘crazy hawt sex’ later.

    Dread game should strike FEAR into the heart of your FB/Gf/whatever. it should make her be nicer to you and go more out of her way for you. a woman who reacts to Dread with non-verbal ‘bring it the fuck on’ sub-coms….is a girl who’s more trouble than she’s worth.

    if you were more experienced, maybe you could pull it off…but even then, why?

    “She is giving me shit about looking at other women, explicitly even told me last night that if I want to have sex with women other than her, that she doesn’t want to be with me, after questioning me about what girls I was looking at, and why, if I wanted to have sex with them, if I want to be exclusive with her, and that she needs to know, etc.
    All in all it isn’t really that crazy. It does seem like questions just about any girl would ask. I wouldn’t know because I don’t have any other experiences. But I feel like my reaction to these questions is what dictates her behavior more than anything (although I know there is a limit especially with the Transition Phase and BB taking precedent over AF)”

    if she’s going this loco over you just ‘looking’ at other women….there’s something up with her. either she’s a) pulling something worse behind your back or b) super jaded past.

    your reaction to her questions should just be ‘i’m not ready to commit in that way to you at this point in my life, and if this is how you feel, i wish you the best.’ END.

    if you KEEP having these convos with her, you’re NOT really giving her answers or you’re falling into her frame or whatever. it’s just going to eventually swallow your life.

    “Despite all that, there’s at least one other guy I know she’s good friends with who makes good money and has explicitly told her he’ll take care of her. He’s pissed off she’s not having sex with him, and she’s told me how she’s told him to fuck off, and told him she’s not interested in him that way.
    She uses that as justification for having him over, like he’s slept over more than a few times. ”

    and a) it is!

    she’s fucking this guy and trying to manage you both (or shit, maybe there’s more).

    ASK ME HOW I KNOW

    “The tricky thing is I can’t really call her out on this, because solipsism guarantees that she won’t see any fault in it at all. Trying to explain my position is completely useless. I’ve maybe called her out on it once, and she just came back vehemently with “I’d never think of sleeping with any of these guys, I have zero attraction to them at all.”

    lol what the fuck?

    here’s the thing. if you want non-commitment, then technically she’s free to fuck other guys. she WANTS a commitment from you, but you’re being wishy washy about it (you can’t just cut her and her bullshit loose, mainly). what are you needing to call her out on? she’s playing within the rules — and because she’s fucking nutz, she’s WAY BETTER than you at all of this.

    CUT HER LOOSE

    “I could say the same thing about those girls I was checking out and imagining pounding the shit out of when we were out together, lol.”

    and she will just LAUGH IN YOUR FACE.

    notice that for you it’s just you LOOKING at chicks and she has your balls in a vice. she’s 99.999% likely ACTUALLY FUCKING SOMEONE ELSE.

    she has you, dude.

    “She is outright lying to me, but because of solipsism, she doesn’t see it as lying. It’s crazy how self-justifying Hypergamy is.
    But it does seem very similar to guys spinning plates, ironically. Women and (Alpha) Men seem like Yin and Yang, two sides of the same coin.
    Anyway, she’s telling me that she loves me and cares about me, and at the same time has made it clear that if I don’t give in to her ultimatum, she won’t hesitate to end everything with us.”

    you should step back from ‘hypergamy’ this and ‘alpha’ that. right now this is just all about POWER and who has PROSPECTS.

    bottom line: she does, you don’t.

    “So I’ve just been buying time. Of course I want to fuck other girls, but I’m not fucking other girls right now. I’m not telling her that, just like she’s not telling me the truth about her Beta Orbiters.”

    she already knows. that’s why she pounces on you at even ‘looking’ at other women. she’s putting your dick in an iron cage. and she’s going to set your reference point for cheating at like……a look. (hers will be if she fucks him more than 3 days out of the week without a condom and gets a facial at least one of those times or some bullshit).

    “The point is she should be, but women naturally will not WANT to fuck other guys when they’re happy with the guy they’re with.
    Whereas men are programmed to want to fuck as many women as possible, REGARDLESS of how ‘hot’ the woman they’re with is.
    This is what she’s getting tripped up on. Thinking she’s not good enough for me, not pretty enough, etc.”

    this is what i’m talking about.

    this is where a lot of ‘science dogma’ is fucking guys up.

    this lady is SHOWING YOU WITH HER BEHAVIOR that she is more than willing to a) FUCK OTHER MEN b) LOCK YOU DOWN HARD c) PSYCHOLOGICALLY DOMINATE YOU

    this chick may be the same even when she’s happy with the guy she’s with. shit, she seems like she might be ‘happy’ with you….but she’s going to get WHAT SHE WANTS.

    just like you are talking about your ‘programming.’

    listen buddy, if your programming worked that way, you’d be off enduring serious rejections to even out the fucking score. you’d be off fucking a lot of girls right now…talking their ears off and borderline harassing them.

    i guarantee you she is not getting tripped up on not being ‘good enough’ for you. lol.

    this chick is bad news. she has way more experience than you, she’s more out of her head than you, and she’s just going to constrict who you are as a person. get out.

    if you aren’t going to get out, here is what you need to do.

    the next time she gives you any shit about looking at other chicks, you need to just execute a soft Next (preferably after first saying ‘i can look’ or ‘that’s who i am’ or ‘whatever.’). radio silence her for the better part of a week.

    the next time she gives you an ultimatum — LET HER WALK. wish her the best.

    you need to let her know that you’re not going to take her shit.

  54. @BennyB

    You’re dealing with a woman who has problems. It’s up to you to stay in or get out but know that you’re dealing with a woman who has been raped (has problems) and it won’t end well.

    I hope you’re not considering having any kids with this one.

  55. @Sun @Softek (et al)

    “Watching your posts on here feels like I’m getting a visit from the Ghost of Relationships Past.”

    Yup, I just wrote a post to that effect on the previous thread. No need to repost here, it’s at:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/04/04/damaged-goods/comment-page-5/#comment-151581

    Seeing the way the patterns work themselves out over and over…it can be uncanny.

    This is true for men (as I tried to illustrate in the linked post) but also for women. My old oneitis keeps on re-enacting the same relationship over and over – meed LSE guy, both fall hard, she wrests frame from them (her go-to tactic is to try to show how ‘supportive’ she is by finding some basic life skill you have difficulty with and ‘helping’ you get that in order, which allows her to start taking charge of your basic daily affairs), the intimacy starts swinging wildly between passion and drama, the dude gets super upset/depressed, she loses attraction and becomes a domineering bitch, the thing blows up. Takes like 9-18 months. The dude ends up a wreck at the end of it. The one after me went suicidal, then decided to move halfway across the world for no reason, then changed his mind for no reason, then got a dead-end job as a trucker in spite of having a rich, connected family. Maybe I got of lightly lol.

    We play out the games we play in our head in our external lives. Getting your shit together is vitally important, cause your life will never look good till you do.

    Learn from your mistakes. Don’t wallow in them.

  56. “Dread game should strike FEAR into the heart of your FB/Gf/whatever. it should make her be nicer to you and go more out of her way for you. a woman who reacts to Dread with non-verbal ‘bring it the fuck on’ sub-coms….is a girl who’s more trouble than she’s worth.”

    love it, Scray. think WWSD?

    combine this with the “rolodex” idea and as long as your girl’s rolodex includes stuff you really like (bjs, hot sex, threesomes, food, pampering in my case) then girls are basically a simple input/output system

    input dread, receive excellence

    dread game rules

  57. Softek – Just to add a few simple observations.

    She’s playing you, like a trout fisherman plays a fish in a lake. That stinging in your lip? It’s her hook.

    She’s manipulating you like a marionette, where your every body part is tied to a string. That tug on your dick? It’s one of her strings.

    She’s pitting you against one of her beta orbiters. At some point, she’ll play “Let’s You And Him Fight”, and maybe it’ll be him showing up to pound on you for some imagined “abuse” you did to her. Yes, it can happen to you.

    Whether this woman is cluster – B or not I can’t say, but she’s seriously tooling and manipulating you, and bear in mind that this is the “he’s not quite locked down” phase. This is her best. It only gets worse from here, once you commit. Got that?

    SHE IS ON GOOD BEHAVIOR RIGHT NOW

    THIS IS HER BEST SIDE

    That screaming in the back of your head? That’s your intuition telling you to get out. Get out! GET OUT NOW!

  58. . . . the girl will live with a Utah couple who are not Native Americans but are related by marriage to her father.

  59. Imagine if courts were to decide that since it is in the child’s best interest to know his/her ancestry, therefore all infants must receive DNA testing, and birth certificates must state the biological father (if known) or “unknown” if not.

    Well, no, that could not happen. Could it?

  60. Thanks for reply, Driver. It’s just weird that there was never any crying before. I’ve been with this girl three years, and it’s just happened two or three times in last year. And besides this issue, she’s one of the least fucked up women I’ve met. She isn’t trying to get money out of me, is totally in love with me and seems to be cool with maintaining a relationship in which is open for me but not for her, because like most women actually in love with men she doesn’t want to fuck anyone else, she just doesn’t want to hear about it/have her nose rubbed in it. She will do anything for me, admits she loves taking orders from me, and she doesn’t go out to bars, isn’t a social media attention seeker.

    And to respond to you, she doesn’t desire kids, which would probably support your thought of her being fucked up, but it works well for me.

    I’m just trying to figure out this stupid crying thing. Like is it related to the time she was raped, like she isn’t feeling like having sex at that moment but is doing it because she knows she has to to please me, and it’s reminding her of that time? It’s fucked up. But I know that me talking with her won’t help it. Really the only issues I’ve had with her in three years.

  61. I am pleased that you (Rollo) picked up on the newly revealed cuckoldry meted out to the late Mr Welby (The Archbishop’s Dad). Picture it: the year is 1956 – pre-pill (but Condoms or withdrawal?) – and yet either immediately before or immediately after the wedding the new Mrs Welby is shagging the Alpha Cad who either cannot or will not marry her and yet she lets him ejaculate in her – and unlike his son he does look like a cad – perhaps more or less as Ian Fleming imagined Bond. She says that, admitting to her slut-dom, she had always been certain that Mr Welby was the true Father; so we must feel sorry for her that aged eighty-six as she is now, her youthful deceit has now come to light. The Archbishop said that ‘there is no existential crisis’ because… Jesus. Yeah right.

    These people by-the-way are all exceptionally well-healed members of the Upper Middle Class – the British UMC is considerably smaller and more exclusive than its American counterpart (The Archbishop, The Prime Minister and The Mayor of London – to name just three top people – all went to the same top-persons school – Eton.)

    From people I know I would have said (if one believes the rumours) that cuckoldry is far far more prevalent than a mere 1-2%.

  62. In need of advice, would like you guys opinion on something that happened this weekend. English is not my native language, so please bear with me.

    Context: I’m 27, she’s 23, together 1 year. I’d rate her HB7 lookswise. She is very good to me, submissive, always wanting to please me. The one flaw that I found out about this weekend: Jealousy.

    I set up to meet with a mixed group of friends I met in January, coming here from the neighbouring cities. In this group of friends there is a girl, 18yo HB8, typical Beverly Hills estereotype, that according to my GF, seemed interested in me. I saw her behavior as normal hot girl shooting for hypergamy: always fishing for orbiters, while having an alpha boyfriend, casually forgotten when convenient. She might have showed covert interest, but despite she being hot, I’m not really interested, mainly because of her behavior, also partially because she lives in another city and I wouldn’t accept an LTR. I also believe I handled her shit well, not letting her put me in orbiter mode, etc.

    So for my part I decided to just let it roll and let it generate dread in my GF, but she got EXTREMELY jealous. All the time wanting to talk to me and covertly trying to make me miss the meeting. I stood firm, since I wanted to meet my friends, and went anyway. So we decided that I would go and the GF would accompany me (which was fine by me, since I mostly enjoy her company).

    Arriving there on the Saturday, HB8 said to my friends something like “My mom said Anon is so handsome!” (I’d met her mom previously). My GF put a bad face and wasn’t having it. We stayed a little and she said she wanted to leave, I said “fine, I’ll take you home and come back”. She agreed, but arriving at her home she begged me not to go back. I said I was going anyway. After some arguing I left her, went back, had a good time, went home 2am and came back 8am for more party, barbecue and poolside.

    So this is the part that I mess up.

    Everyone went home at 12pm Sunday, and I went back to meet my GF. She was really unpleasant this time. We talked and she wanted me to reaffirm that I felt nothing for HB8, so I did it. Long story short (actually I don’t remember well how this talk went), but in the end I agreed not to talk to HB8 again. From this point GF was pleasant again, and we had a good rest of Sunday, but in the end I got the feeling I got tricked here.

    I guess I dropped the dread game by feeling it wasn’t working for my benefit. Somehow I got what I wanted (pleasant GF) by dropping it, since I had no interest in HB8 and wanted the GF to stop with the jealousy. But, reading TRM dread articles, I feel I’m missing something here. What to do when you try dread (soft-dread I guess, since I’ve done absolutely nothing to prompt it) and the GF responds with extreme jealousy?

    Thanks in advance.

  63. There are lies, damned lies and statistics, or so the saying goes. Choose the right area to do that study and presto, a 2% cuckold factor. My sister ran a couple military baby wards, and her observation was that 16% of the babies were obviously not related to the ‘father’ from blood type alone. Her belief was that the rate was double that. That’s not representative of the US in general, but I don’t believe the 2% is either.

    I’d also like to note that cuckoldry was endemic in medieval Europe. Droit du seigneur, jus primae noctis, however you might call it, the lord gets the virgins and the underlings get the shaft. AF/BB indeed!

  64. Rollo, that’s fucking mindblowing! 1/64th?!? WTF!

    I’m 1/16th Choctaw and have the paperwork to prove it but I have no intentions of going ‘tribal’… I’m very comfortable being a old, marginalized white guy.

  65. @Anon

    What to do when you try dread (soft-dread I guess, since I’ve done absolutely nothing to prompt it) and the GF responds with extreme jealousy?

    Uhh… well not this:

    We talked and she wanted me to reaffirm that I felt nothing for HB8, so I did it.

    Punish her bad behavior. Tease her about her jealousy. Don’t give her the answer she wants. Get angry/make up sex out of the deal. “How are you going to keep me from feeling anything from her?” Whatever you do, don’t capitulate.

    She wants you to be so high value that other attractive women want you. She wants to be jealous. She wants the emotions. If you capitulate, you take a step toward the “He was just too nice” exit on her part. Don’t do that.

    It’s your choice if you want to bang the other chick or not. Personally I’d keep her on the hook and maybe shag her a couple times; you don’t have to fuck her personality. But don’t let your chick make your decisions for you.

    When Dread works, it will manifest as jealousy. Have fun with it instead of being scared of it. The fact that you got scared and capitulated is something you want to get away from in the future.

  66. “Somehow I got what I wanted (pleasant GF) by dropping it . . .”

    No. She became “pleasant” because she got what she wanted.

    . . . in the end I agreed not to talk to HB8 again.

    And dug yourself a hole you will have a great deal of difficulty climbing out of again. You ceded her power. This power is now the rule in your relationship. Furthermore, you positively reinforced her tactic for acquiring that power. Expect a lot more of it. Any unpleasantness you would have faced is going to pale to that in your future should you attempt to reverse the rule.

    And so you will keep digging, as the consequences for not doing so will become more and more extreme, and you have already demonstrated the limits of your boundary as lower than that.

  67. I’m just trying to figure out this stupid crying thing. Like is it related to the time she was raped, like she isn’t feeling like having sex at that moment but is doing it because she knows she has to to please me, and it’s reminding her of that time? It’s fucked up. But I know that me talking with her won’t help it.

    You’ll probably never know. I agree that talking about it with her would be a bad idea, so that’s out. Otherwise, it’s just guesses. It could be related to her rape, but if it’s only happened a few times that would be odd. It could be a medical condition where she’s experiencing pain recently there. It could be that she’s troubled about something recently and it’s coming out during sex. Or it could be that something recently triggered more intense memories of her rape, and that makes her cry during sex but only recently? It’s all guesses, really. Women who have been violently/forcibly raped often have substantial sexual issues afterward of all kinds — some become very averse to sex, others the opposite. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case with this, since it is so recent, but it could also be the case that something recent triggered something for some reason. Hard to know.

  68. Softek —

    Just to join the chorus here …

    That girl is bad news. Hard to say if she’s borderline or not, but regardless she’s playing you like a fiddle. She’s obviously well advanced in manipulation, and you’re not going to get anywhere good with a woman like that. Even if you were more of an expert manipulator/frame-maintainer, you still want to stay away from a woman like that — too much brain damage when there are plenty of other women who are not that level of crazy. Cut things off. You’ll thank yourself later.

  69. It seems to me, in a cuck situation, that not only does the woman hit the jackpot of both good genes and provisioning, but so does the alpha; his child is also getting provisioning without having to do anything to ensure it.

    And from what I read, actual parenting has nothing to do with how a child grows up (excluding actual abuse). It’s genetics all the way.

    The 1-2% cuck rate is also telling, since that seems to also be the percentage of men who are rapists, and is also the estimate rate of psychopathy in the population. And it should also be noted that certain communities have higher rates of these than others.

  70. @ Tweel,
    I would believe a much higher rate with babies born in a military hospital. As a veteran and also a man who has lived next to and worked on a military base for 25 years, there is no doubt in my mind that military wives are the most likely to screw around than any other group of women.

  71. Tweel
    Choose the right area to do that study and presto, a 2% cuckold factor.

    Exactly. Experiment design and data set selection are a key part of any rigorous study. The method matters. That is a weakness of meta-studies, worst case they wind up with an average of averages, this has no real meaning.

    My sister ran a couple military baby wards, and her observation was that 16% of the babies were obviously not related to the ‘father’ from blood type alone

    There would probably not be any funding in acadamia to study births in the military, because the results would not fit The Narrative.

  72. Thanks, Novaseeker. I’ll probably choose to ignore the situation/pretend it didn’t happen for now and hope it doesn’t happen again. We had sex earlier that day and it was great. That’s what’s so weird about it.

    As I said, besides the couple crying episodes throwing me for a loop, she’s a good woman. Some of my half to mostly beta friends have said they wished their girlfriends were more like her. And beta friends, they’re good people but can be down right embarrassing to go out with. Sucks not having alphas to hit the town with.

  73. “My sister ran a couple military baby wards, and her observation was that 16% of the babies were obviously not related to the ‘father’ from blood type alone. Her belief was that the rate was double that.”

    banker cannon fodder (per kissinger) is as beta as it gets. max cuck rate of 33% sounds realistic.

    so overall cuck rate anywhere from 2%-33%.

    actually, being an expendable super beta and still having a 67% chance of being the bio father is really pretty good. chicks are pretty generous with their “precious” eggs.

    the “i like a man in uniform” girl really means she likes to humiliate men in uniform

  74. @anon with benefits

    “In this group of friends there is a girl, 18yo HB8, typical Beverly Hills estereotype, that according to my GF, seemed interested in me. I saw her behavior as normal hot girl shooting for hypergamy: always fishing for orbiters, while having an alpha boyfriend, casually forgotten when convenient. She might have showed covert interest, but despite she being hot, I’m not really interested, mainly because of her behavior, also partially because she lives in another city and I wouldn’t accept an LTR. I also believe I handled her shit well, not letting her put me in orbiter mode, etc.”

    must be man-eating monday here at TRM!

    when a girl you’re with thinks another girl is into you, and your girl isn’t drunk/high/intoxicated/whatever*….she usually won’t say anything.

    when a girl you’re with thinks you may be into another girl….that’s when she will usually say ‘oh she’s into you.’

    *when girls get sloppy or drunk they can become super ‘nice’ as a way of hiding their butthurt feelz and so they WILL say x or y is into you and then maybe launch into a soliloquy about how confident they are in themselves or whatever….

    ‘HB8 said to my friends something like “My mom said Anon is so handsome!” (I’d met her mom previously).’

    lol

    when they’re being open with this kind of stuff, it means you’re less of a sexual threat than you believe.

    your gf is pissed because she’s in the presence of competitors who don’t share her interest in you. this kind of shit rubs off on women.

    and it all creates this question in her….

    …are you really an alpha? or are you some kind of impostor?

    maybe she’ll shit test you…

    “t in the end I agreed not to talk to HB8 again. From this point GF was pleasant again, and we had a good rest of Sunday, but in the end I got the feeling I got tricked here.”

    aannnnnnd you failed

    roger dodger.

    you need to play with those perceptions. just grin and say ‘she’s not into me at all….i’d be like her big brother lol. you’re being ridiculous.’ and just refuse and then that’s the end of it.

    i’ll break it down a little more

    “I guess I dropped the dread game by feeling it wasn’t working for my benefit. Somehow I got what I wanted (pleasant GF) by dropping it, since I had no interest in HB8 and wanted the GF to stop with the jealousy. But, reading TRM dread articles, I feel I’m missing something here. What to do when you try dread (soft-dread I guess, since I’ve done absolutely nothing to prompt it) and the GF responds with extreme jealousy?”

    it WAS working to your benefit.

    she was a little uncertain and so she tried to control your behavior.

    an hb7 woman who really thinks you’re capable of fucking an HB8 with a finger snap won’t ever try to control anything you do. it’s only when they’re unsure about something. that’s when they start trying to control you.

    first of all, she says she wants to leave — so you instantly take her home and then do this ‘oh well i’ll go back.’ lol. nah, just stay there and make her wait.

    you’re not fully executing. and that’s why she keeps needling you.

    Dread is a) she has no control over you b) you have BETTER prospects.
    and like…a is used as evidence of b. so if she ever starts wondering about b, she’ll press the a button and if you balk at her control, then she’ll say ‘oh shit….’ if you don’t, then she’s like ‘awww phew.’

  75. @scray

    > “if you balk at her control, then she’ll say ‘oh shit….’ if you don’t, then she’s like ‘awww phew.”

    Ummm … “balking” at her control is not the right concept here …

    *mercilessly shut down*

    THAT produces results.

  76. Scray’s hitting it with all cylinders today.

    “she’s fucking this guy and trying to manage you both (or shit, maybe there’s more).

    ASK ME HOW I KNOW”

    Heh, good call. I mean, maybe she’s not banging him on the regular, but she’s certainly doing whatever’s needed to keep him on the hook. Carrot and stick. Very likely she’s doling out sexual favors occasionally just to give him a taste, maybe she let things go in a ‘it just happened’ context once or twice, whatever the minimum amount is she can give to keep him orbiting.

    And then that lets her more easily turn around to Softek and say she’d ‘never do anything with him’ bc she can just rationalize ‘oh, it was just a bit of grinding, and he wanted it not me, and we were buzzed from that wine…’ or ‘it just happened so it doesn’t count.’ And in her mind it makes sense cause she’d never do anything sexual with him on purpose lol.

    “when they’re being open with this kind of stuff, it means you’re less of a sexual threat than you believe.

    “your gf is pissed because she’s in the presence of competitors who don’t share her interest in you. this kind of shit rubs off on women.”

    This is counterintuitive to guys at a more intermediate level. When you’re first learning how to generate attraction, you’re looking for the MAXIMUM IOI’S to validate your efforts. But very open, abundant IOI’s often indicate that a chick is just having fun flirting with you, not that she’s really intending to take it anywhere. Usually if she intends to bang you she’ll try to keep that shit discrete (to avoid ASD-triggering).

    And that’s fine, I enjoy just flirting with girls who I know shit’s not gonna go anywhere with. It’s fun. But you shouldn’t confuse the two, cause the other girls probably aren’t.

    A girl flirting with you very openly can actually be a bit of a DLV in some contexts – cause you’re spending your time goofing off instead of making shit happen.

  77. @Tom

    Weeelll….

    Not like there’s never a time for that, but if you ‘mercilessly shut down’ a mild frame grab it does make you look a bit high-strung. Like, how does it look if someone teases you and you just flip the fuck out and beat their face in to SHOW THEM!

    If someone just tries to grab the frame from you in a kinda testing-the-waters fashion like this, just act like they’re maybe being a little weird.

  78. @softek

    I actually understand why you fell like keeping her around. I get it; she’s fucking you, she’s turned on the charm makes you feel good about your self, she “accepts you for who you are” plus the massages (brah i def get that, I’m a fan of twice monthly body work) I mean again if she was doing this from purely a place of caring and goodness, it’d be all good. But she’s not, and you clearly see that, and have articulated that in your comments, you see through that shit which is good!

    The thing about the BPDs. Its when you combine that intense “give this dude everything” behavior with her incessant nagging for commitment, her reverse dread “yeah i don’t have any sexual feelings with dudes that are sleeping over etc” is when it becomes manipulation. And imho it’s hard to react correctly to it, mainly because your boundaries aren’t fully developed. But also because the push/pull of that shit is disorienting, you lose a sense of what the fuck is what. If your boundaries were solid, you’d actually laugh in her face when she gives you that cock and bull “i just want the security of monogamy.” you’d be like “yeah having sleepovers with your ex’s isn’t congruent with you wanting to be monogamous bish”

    The one thing you’ve done right imho is being absolutely clear about your desire not to be monogamous, that’s your truth, that’s your story and sounds like you’ve consistently let her know. You simply have to maintain and act on that boundary by adding one or more plates, the only way you can do that is by putting some distance/time/space between you and this chic. That’s all i’m asking. go from every day to every other day to every third day. take one day off do your thing, spend time with YOUR friends on other days, just enjoying your fucking awesome unencumbered singlehood. I know going out and being social sucks, its easier to just default to the guaranteed option. just one more chic you add into the rotation will cure that shit QUICK.. and please please let her see the texts and emails and shit.. leave you phone open, leave your browser open to porn. time to stop talking about it and let her know you are fucking serious about not being monogamous WITH HER ever. Once she’s had enough she will move on her own. Just be sure to have one or two plates to replace it

    Yes, she’s very likely fucking other people so she’s bold faced lying about wanting commitment etc, she simply wants to sink her fangs in and start feeding. Frankly brah, you don’t owe her anything, for all the nice things she’s doing for you, she’d getting some dick and occasional companionship. that was good enough up till this point? right? (7 months) just stay firm.. that is all, you’re prepared to offer hard dick plus bubble gum, nothing more.

    Just a lil bit of distance, I cannot stress to you the potential risk you are subjecting yourself to, especially if youre working on internals Even for the most fortified dude interacting for a long enough time with a disordered personality will still wear you down drip by fucking drip. you can’t win this one.

    When you have a small rotation of fuckbuddies, you will find it much easier to avoid this shit (abundance.) pace yourself, don’t rush, keep your options open put some space.

  79. @softek.. cosign scray’s analysis.

    Again stay strong dude, you have a serious advantage with your.. rational understanding of whats going on.. thats half the battle imho.

  80. “Even for the most fortified dude interacting for a long enough time with a disordered personality will still wear you down drip by fucking drip. you can’t win this one.”

    Yes. It’s basically just entropy. A toxic person (read – personality disordered) will slowly wear down a healthy person, even as they are never brought up by the healthy person. It’s a one-way street.

    So how do you tell who’s a toxic person?

    There are people that can be taught, who can learn to be better. There are some people who just need to learn better relationship skills. They tend to learn them rather than control the relationship so that they don’t have to.

    Fumbles are fine. Power games aren’t.

  81. @forge

    “Yes. It’s basically just entropy. A toxic person (read – personality disordered) will slowly wear down a healthy person, even as they are never brought up by the healthy person. It’s a one-way street.
    So how do you tell who’s a toxic person?”

    these terms are too slippery.

    there are just psychologically strong people and psychologically weaker people.

    now, some people have “advantages” you may not have.

    like if X comes from a broken home and has 20 years experience dealing with this kind of ‘anything goes burn it to the ground’ mindset….and you’re Mr. ‘I started watching RSD inner game vids 2 years ago’ lol….

    you’ve got heart, rocky…

    but she’s more like

    …and it’s gonna look like

    unless you just realize the right move is

  82. Thankyou for this article! I shared it with a friend of mine who is knowingly raising another mans kid. I know he will probably never read it or even understand half of it. But he has been getting more and more unhappy every year that passes and I wasn´t even the first one to notice. I will probably have to have an honest talk with him and risk our friendship, but I know the guy for over 20 years and he doesnt need to be in that situation. Big Hug

  83. Might want to tell Softek about your triage quote Rollo.
    People forget Tyson was more than just a guy who hits hard. His defense was on point.

    “We are all like little wizards hiding behind our pseudonyms.”
    Not really NBTM. I really would tag a girl in the butt with a water cannon at the water park.

  84. @Softie – Next time you see your GF, imagine this is her face.

    Save yourself 20+ years that many of us wasted, trying to reason with the hamster. You are getting excellent advice. I can only add this. You are monogamous, you do get that, yes? I find it bizarre watching you talk about how you constantly tell her you won’t commit to her but you don’t even approach other women, no less fuck any of them. She’s also renting a huge amount of space in your head, you have lost being your own mental point of origin. Oneitis, thy name is Softek.

    One final piece of advice. There is limited value in analysis and self-awareness, it’s important but only a starting point. It’s useless without action. More commenting here, more talk, more tedious parsing will help nothing at this poin. You have described the situation, understand what’s happening and have been getting the same advice for a while. It goes like this:

    – Soft-next her. Now. Tonight. Don’t wait. She will likely come crawling back at some point and have the most mind-blowing sex you can imagine with her.
    – Focus on your mission. I know what you are doing with that, how’s it going? You really hustling and making it happen? I cant imagine how with all this drama. Imagine instead all this energy was put into your business.
    – Develop your “game” and make abundance with women a reality in your life.

    Everything else is bullshit.

  85. From Dalrock’s article:

    ” maybe, God help you, you got involved with a boy who could shave, where you got caught up with a guy who looked like a man but ended up not being one, and now you have a child, God is going to enter that space and he’s going to be merciful and gracious. So don’t lose heart.”

    😧😒….I mean…I can’t.

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