Damaged Goods

damaged_goods

As a part of my line of work doing liquor branding promos, I’ve frequently had to do spots with (terrestrial) radio talk shows for events and such. I’ve had to familiarize myself often with these personalities; some I became long time friends with, others kind of burned out or became victims of what they thought was a greater social proof than they actually had.

One thing I’ve noted in working with the men who host these shows is that more often than not they suffer from deeply invested Blue Pill mindsets with regard to women. Many of them eventually invited women into their male space as co-hosts to help with appealing to the female demographic, and like all other “female friendly” ventures, the character of the show shifts to promoting the same feminized boilerplate we see in Purple Pill forums and blogs that began with a more Red Pill tone.

Almost invariably there develops a segment or some call in bit where the host and hostess(es) attempt to suss out the romantic problems of a caller or emailer. If you listen to any semi-popular local morning commute show you’ll get this segment at least once or twice a week. All of them follow the same format. All of them rattle off the same Blue Pill tropes even those without the aid of a Red Pill Lens are familiar with – open communication, keep it fresh, meeting (her) needs, be supportive, etc. and all the standards you can expect from a society that doesn’t question the rote memorization of Oprah or Dr. Phil’s idioms.

If you do have a reasonably attuned Red Pill Lens you’ll just grind your teeth at all of it, but it confirms and highlights the Beta inside the host despite all his other blusterings on the show. It also serves to highlight the saturation of the Blue Pill’s conditioning reach into society.

So it was on one of these shows I was listening to this week that the ‘morning zoo’ decided to take a stab at one emailer’s very common problem. It was the typical Dead Bedrooms problem you’ll find in the subredd of the same name; “My wife is frigid, how do I get her to want to fuck me?” However, the story had a slight twist that nicely dovetails into a topic I’ve wanted to explore.

In this man’s story, he’d married a woman for all the right Blue Pill reasons. He loved her, “connected” with her on what he imagines are deep emotional levels, was supportive, dedicated, but was only able to have sex with her in as limited and as lackluster a way as she felt ‘comfortable‘ in having with him. After a year and a half of marriage, she’d completely “shut down” on him sexually. Anytime he initiated she would recoil from him and begin to cry.

There was no elaboration on her part as to why she was crying and up to the point of his seeking advice she’d offered no reason for her reluctance to fuck him. Fast forward to now and it’s been almost a year for him without sex with his wife, no explanation, and his ‘needs‘ are being unmet. He’s emotionally invested in her in the way you’d expect a Blue Pill, dutiful Beta would be, so his inner turmoil is one of the Paradox of Commitment conflict with his ‘need‘ and expectation of having sex with his wife.

As I said, this is standard Dead Bedrooms fare for the majority of men who married while fully immersed in a Blue Pill world. Unfortunately, we don’t have much more to go on – there were no descriptions of background, histories, family particulars, etc. given, however, my guess would be his wife is experiencing  the very common post-marriage Beta ‘buyers remorse’. However, this is why I thought the analysis and advice on the part of the hosts (1 male host, 1 male, and 2 female co-hosts) were very telling about the state of the Blue Pill world.

Presuming Abuse

The first reflexive interpretation on the part of the women was that this wife had some form of sexual abuse in her personal history and the husband’s initiating sex was triggering some unresolved sex issues she’d never dealt with and apparently never revealed to her husband when they were having sex in the years leading up to it. Again, there was no information about this from the emailer, but this was the first presumption the female co-hosts jumped to whenever a woman is described as crying about having sex.

We don’t really know if this is the case, but I found it interesting how useful that presumption is for women. In almost every social infraction we are expected to presume a blameless state with women. Whether that stems from rape allegations, ‘slut shaming’, past sexual history, red-handed infidelity, or, in this case, the presumed possibility of sexual abuse in a woman’s past, we are expected, on whole, as a society to presume that even the possibility is the actual fact.

Even when the actual fact is disproven, and the fault or choice blatantly falls upon the woman in question, the rationale and after-the-fact absolving of that woman of her own culpability is still expected to take precedence over the actual fault. For example, when I first detailed the situation of the woman and her husband in

For example, when I first detailed the situation of the woman and her husband in Saving the Best the reflex on the part of virtually all women responding to this story (as well as the relinks to it) and most Blue Pill men was to presume she had some damaged past where she was trying to find some emotional connection with the men she was having amateur porn orgies with in her college years. The acceptable, socially reflexive presumption was to give this woman a plausible reason – and one designed to evoke feminine victim sympathy – for her actions rather than consider that she was simply living in the moment and following her Hypergamous imperatives at the time.

Of course, the simple answer was that the husband was put into the same Dead Bedrooms scenario most men in his situation are placed in. He was the dutiful Beta in Waiting and “married a slut who fucks (him) like a prude”. There are over 30,000 subscribers on the dead bedrooms subreddit, this is not an uncommon occurrence, but just as common is the social convention of redirecting the fault on the part of the husband for his ‘selfish concerns’ for ever having been upset by this revelation about his wife. He was the bad guy for feeling ‘underserved’ with regards to his wife’s genuine, unobligated, sexual desire.

He’s the bad guy for not being understanding and supportive of the reflexive rationale that his wife must’ve been damaged goods (and damaged by other, equally horrible, men) before he decided to marry her. He’s responsible for coming to terms with it on his own. So it’s either face that or risk being perceived as the same kind of ‘typical’ asshole man who brought her to this by abandoning her in divorce.

‘Abuse’ as a Tool

‘Abuse’ is easily one of the most generic and utilitarian of catch terms and social conventions available to women living in a feminine-primary social order. It’s ambiguous, but also carries enough associative horror to get others to accept it at face value while killing any need for the uncomfortable explanations that would qualify it. A woman says “I was abused” and it ends the discussion regardless of any mitigating factors or particulars about it – and despite the particulars of what she claims ‘abuse’ to avoid. There simply is no qualifying it. If she feels abused it is abuse, and don’t worsen the situation by asking her to qualify it.

Claims of prior abuse are the perfect tool for women to explain past sexual indiscretions as well as to explain frigidity with a husband or a boyfriend, even those with whom she’d been sexual with before. Needless to say, this is a very useful tool for explaining and excusing women’s Hypergamous impulses and concurrent behaviors, however, I should note that the ‘abuse’ social convention will become less and less tenable as Open Hypergamy becomes more widespread and embraced.

For Beta men – Blue Pill men plugged into the narrative of unqualified female victimhood – there is a very real risk of becoming trapped in a cycle of White Knighting against the evils of ‘typically masculine’ men who would ‘abuse’ his princess while simultaneously reinforcing his Beta status in avoiding the perception of being an ‘abuser’ himself.

Knights Against Abuse

The men and boys I detail in Promise Keepers are prime examples of this looping presumption of abuse. For the most, these men had, or understood that they had, “abusive” fathers whom they swore never to emulate in their adult lives. While that abusiveness may or may not be factual the impression of it is what molds that man’s life, but at the same time predisposes him to the Savior Schema that only cements him into a personal life founded in Blue Pill White Knight heroics.

There develops an internal conflict for these heroes of abuse because their dedication to themselves as their own Mental Point of Origin will always be compromised by a Blue Pill conditioned responsibility of supportiveness for women. For the patient, waiting Beta, the man who’s played by what he believes are the rules for the better part of his teens and 20s, there is a unique anger he experiences when his ‘dream girl’ (or one that closely aligns with that ideal) isn’t sexual with him in the way he’s imagined women are with men during their 20s.

She’s come to him in her Epiphany Phase and after all the sexual indiscretions and self-discovery of her 20s, she finally wants to “do things right” by making him wait to have sex (so he won’t think she’s easy) and when they do it’s inhibited or becomes so once he’s locked into emotional or marital commitment with her. Now add to this the presumption of, or stated account of, ‘abuse’ she’s experienced in the past with the ‘typical’ men she was discovering herself sexually with.

You might even add the child of one of her former ‘abusers’ into the mix with whom he’s expected to form a paternal bond with. That Beta now hates those ‘abusers’ with more passion than when he was brooding about them banging the girls he wanted to fuck in his 20s because they ruin women in both the short and long term to him. They’ve ruined his girl for him now that she’s come to her senses and chosen him to pair with “forever”.

Now she’s a mess, a mess he’s expected to untangle and heal and reconstruct into something resembling the sexual dream girl he’s convinced she used to be, and all because of that “Bro”, the abuser, they guy(s) she had to discover for herself she ‘really didn’t need in her life’.

She’s damaged goods, but to that Beta, she’s blameless in her having been “abused” because she didn’t know any better that ‘typical’ men, the ones she chose, would abuse her. Now their abuses are his problems and he’s reminded of that every time she cries when he initiates sex with her.

The Utility of Damaged Goods

In this context, the social convention that is “abuse” becomes another form of insurance of Hypergamy for women. That presumption of blameless abuse locks Beta providers into a Dream Killers schema to the point that they will prioritize the healing of their ‘abused’ princess, the one who would otherwise be his dream girl, above his own imperatives, aspiration and goals in order to prove his quality as a supporter of women.

For women, the assurances that the social convention of ‘abuse’ represents also comes with a measure of internal conflict. From the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy, her subconscious hates the idea of being obligated to fuck her Beta Bucks provider, but again, subconsciously, she needs (or feels she needs) his support, provisioning, and emotional availability. However, for all of his self-evincing support, comfort and emotional investment in being a “better man” than the nebulous ‘abusers’ of her past, those anti-seductive aspects only serve to remind and confirm to her that he ‘doesn’t get it‘ and she’s obligated to be intimate and affectionate in a seemingly genuine way if she’s to maintain the provisional relationship.

The default presumption of ‘abuse’ fills the need for a buffer between reconciling the Hypergamous want of an Alpha lover and the provisional, emotional need for a Beta’s resources and comforts. The DeadBedrooms and MarriedRedPill subredds (not to mention the MMSL forums) are littered with the stories of men who discovered (sometimes secretly) how sexual their ‘abused’ wives were in their Party Years or what their wives’ real sexual appetites were for other men after their divorce.

Now, as I close here, let me state that I’m not discounting the real possibilities of actual cases of abuse among women. I have no doubt I’ll generate a slew of disgruntled comments from women relating their personal tragedies in today’s comment thread, but my point in this essay isn’t to question women’s legitimate claims of abuse. Rather it is to lay bare the utility invested in presuming the legitimacy of abuse whenever a woman even hints at the possibility of it by crying before sex or any number of other behaviors or mental states that would be affirmed or excused by just the claim.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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IAS
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@sfer: I was thinking of going to one of those a while back, thanks a bunch for the mini-review.

About Owen/Tyler, I’m biased but I laugh a lot at his jokes. I think he has a similar sense of humor as me. Someone linked to one that YaReally had linked in his archive (from around 2012), where he answers about Daygame being mostly the same as Nightgame, and I was cracking myself laughing when he does his silly impressions of some girls with the weird voice.

Hector
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Shameless

http://imgur.com/q3fdugR

Novaseeker
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Shameless

Yep, and obviously a dyke, too.

enrique
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Any headline like “Cuckoldy is incredibly rare among humans” is suspect. Reminds me of the story that made the rounds with all the usual suspects (Time, Newsweek, USA Today), in the past 10-25 years: “Why marriage is good for men” and “How women are getting screwed by divorce”, etc etc.

If it looks like it was written by a Social Justice Creep to fit their agenda, it probably was.

Ponce du Lion
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This study has the potential to debunk all what we know about evo psy http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/1-in-50-british-men-are-unknowingly-raising-a-child-which-isnt-theirs-research-suggests-a6971901.html I think this could be bait for beta commitment. The laboratory is Catholic as they said on their about page. Think for a moment: if this is true means that 99%-98% of women are satisfied with their men to the point of want their eggs fertilised by them. This is, only the 2-1% of the bottom men are bad for women. Despite the fact that indefinitely by women is well set at 25%, so according to the 2-1% data only 4% of actively infidel women… Read more »

Ponce du Lion
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Yes the numbers are skewed. I read first the female imperative propaganda through chateau heartiste.

The laboratory that conducted the study
http://www.kuleuven.be/about/
Mission statement:
“KU Leuven fulfills its mission by providing high-quality interdisciplinary research and education with a Catholic signature.”

http://www.kuleuven.be/about/mission_statement
“KU Leuven aims to actively participate in public and cultural debate and in the advancement of a knowledge-based society. It puts its expertise to the service of society, with particular consideration for its most vulnerable members.”

Ponce du Lion
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with particular consideration for its most vulnerable members

Forge the Sky
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A bit belated, but I wanted to hit ya with this @Blaximus re: “For my 2 cents, I tell ” Christians ” to read the New testament a few dozen times until it sinks in. All of this fear and loathing is unnecessary and self imposed. Pro Tip: It is my non-theological understanding the God…wait for it….Forgives. Jesus is all about Love and understanding, until Revelation. Nobody’s perfect * see practically everyone in the Old Testament.” If I can give a recommendation, I think this book might give you some ammo: http://www.amazon.com/Between-Noon-Three-Parable-Romance/dp/0060613084/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1460179563&sr=8-2&keywords=between+noon+and+three (unfortunately the book’s a bit obscure, so I… Read more »

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IAS “About Owen/Tyler, I’m biased but I laugh a lot at his jokes. I think he has a similar sense of humor as me. “ The hardest I’ve laughed for a long time was when I saw a video where he was imitating how some bodybuilder would bang a girl – by just picking her up and banging her against himself instead of moving his hips. Damn, wish I could find that back. But, see, the calibration needed to be funny is the calibration that gets him social and sexual success. What do girls say about guys they like? “He’s… Read more »

kaminsky
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Ya sure. 98 to 99 percent are just all happy campers with their husband and his ‘seed’ yet likely 95 percent want a divorce. Sixty percent actually file. 35 percent are so fat that they know they have to hang on to the beta paycheck.

Chris
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36002621

Hypergamy evident at the top of the church.

Petherton
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Rollo. Just read this article about the head of the Anglican church: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/08/justin-welby-dna-test-reveals-my-secret-father-was-sir-winston-c/ A perfect example of women’s hypergamous nature. She rides the CC and gets impregnated by an Alpha who’s already taken. She quickly marries a Beta who is hovering in the background and cuckolds him. He never unplugs, she loses respect for him (if there ever was any in the 1st place) and he drinks himself to an early death. Eventually the truth comes out. Instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she paints herself as a victim. The pregnancy is blamed on alcohol, and she successfully generates… Read more »

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A lot of people are doubting the results of the meta survey pointing out cuckoldry is below 3%. But there are several studies pointing this out, and the older one with the figure in 30% was done on subjects that suspected there was cuckoldry involved (i.e. not representative of the general population). I didn’t see issues with the methodology in the studies I read.

Now, these studies are only measuring actual cuckoldry – they are not measuring infidelity, which is necessarily higher.

Tom
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SJF
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@Forge the Sky, Blaximus Re: Robert Farrar Capon I’m not sure if it’s just me but the whole thing reads like @kfg had been born constitutionally theist instead of the opposite, and wrote a book. That’s interesting. There is a whole cache of quotes from him here: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/91124.Robert_Farrar_Capon And a lot of what he writes is analogous to our red pill awareness vs. the Matrix Code of Blue Pill conventions. It was his un-adultered faith vs. the pseudo-reformed Churches. He had insight into what was supposed to be instead of what Churchians rewrote the code to serve their purposes. Like:… Read more »

alphabravotango
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Question to you Gentlemen :

1. Would any of you actually want to stick in a damaged good?

2. Many will hide how damaged they are. Would you stick in if you didn’t know if it was damaged?

3. If you are like me, will rather not stick in, than sticking it in a damaged good, how do you find out, in the quickest way possible, that it is a damaged good?

Sun Wukong
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@alpha If you’ve dated damaged goods, you’ll naturally pick up on the kinds of stories, attitudes, and reactions you see from damaged goods. Like these days I can generally assess how fucked up a woman is from events in her life within a few minutes. It’s not hard after you’ve dated a dangerous psycho or two. Just get ’em talking. They’ll think they’re hiding it, but all they’re doing is not being overt about it. The signs are always there. They aren’t so much a problem for fucking short term (BPD sex best sex) as they’re a problem for LTR,… Read more »

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re Capon: I can connect with the first two quotes. The grace he speaks of there has no actual connection with any particular religion and is simply a manner of interacting with the world you inhabit. If you inhabit a religion, you will ascribe it to your religion, whatever it is. By contrast, I cannot read Kierkegaard because his view is so profoundly Christian that I cannot connect, and I cannot read Teilhard de Chardin, because his view is so profoundly post modern that I cannot connect. I’m rather fond of Ivan Illich, a Catholic Socialist who was renounced by… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ wala

The only thing holding me back is that physically it gets exhausting banging the shit out of these girls who have a lot of energy and are up for anything.

Ya, funny thing, when a girl’s libido is spiked, her energy level spikes, too. Young, old, doesn’t much matter.

just getting it
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OK Rollo, you might think it’s as much as you can expect to find overt hypergamy, but here’s overt cucking:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2010/10/whos-the-daddy/

never thought I’d find arguments in favor, just “we’re here now, make the best of it”

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“I can connect with the first two quotes. The grace he speaks of there has no actual connection with any particular religion and is simply a manner of interacting with the world you inhabit. If you inhabit a religion, you will ascribe it to your religion, whatever it is.” Yeah, Capon brings a bit to the table that’s specifically Christian (talking about things in terms of grace and redemption, and ascribing significance to Christ’s death in the whole deal) but his central point is something like: All the sorts of things that people feel, and have felt, they need to… Read more »

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This may have already been mentioned in this thread, but this opinion piece about the Tyler Summitt scandal is just astonishing: http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/tyler-summitts-affair-with-louisiana-tech-player-disgraces-his-mothers-legacy/ar-BBrwjL5?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=SL5DDHP He is (or I guess it’s now was) the women’s basketball coach at Louisiana Tech who knocked up one of his players. He’s the son of Pat Summitt, the former women’s basketball coach at Tennessee who was so abrasive, I had to quit reading her autobiography after about 5 pages. Basically, the whiny little chick who wrote this opinion piece is concerned that beta boy Tyler has thoroughly tarnished his mother’s coaching legacy, even though she is retired,… Read more »

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A lot of people are doubting the results of the meta survey pointing out cuckoldry is below 3%. But there are several studies pointing this out, and the older one with the figure in 30% was done on subjects that suspected there was cuckoldry involved (i.e. not representative of the general population). I didn’t see issues with the methodology in the studies I read. Now, these studies are only measuring actual cuckoldry – they are not measuring infidelity, which is necessarily higher. Again, as discussed upthread, this doesn’t surprise me, due to effective birth control and available abortion. It makes… Read more »

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@Softek “You can do whatever the hell you want. So now what?” I had some time to think today as I was out at my farm, burning some warm season grasses in anticipation of renewed growth in a month. And cutting down a huge ancient Autumn olive shrub in order to extend a foot plot for deer habitat. And I had a chance to listen to a little of Dr. Laura on the way out and way home. (I have her book sitting here on my desk–but haven’t read it yet–“Bad Childhood, Good Life” How to blossom and thrive in… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
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Dammit Rollo, I just worked my way through Dalrock’s most recent post and it is the same damn thing to deal with now in yours. Rule 1: Women can do no wrong. Rule 2: Anything a woman does that is wrong must be the fault of a BAD man. Rule 3: Anything a man does that is wrong is his fault. Therefore, in any case of infidelity or sexual indiscretion/sin there are always two (2) parties at fault: 1. An evil man who abused and disrespected his sister in Christ and 2. A woman who was tricked into an abusive… Read more »

YaReally
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lolol:

SJF
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Novaseeker: “Who cares if he isn’t the bio-dad, fatherhood isn’t about biology, it’s about a parental relationship.” Spectator article: “Many men have, of course, ended up raising children who were not genetically their own, but really, does it matter? You can feel quite as much tenderness for a child you mistakenly think to be yours as for one who is. A.C. Grayling, the philosopher, has written with feeling on this question this week, in an article for the Evening Standard. Noting that 4 per cent of men are, all unknowing, raising children who are not genetically theirs, according to a… Read more »

Pinelero
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I’m of the totally opposite take on this issue. I don’t want any other man’s kids put onto me. Dating women with kids was always a non-starter for me. If I found out one of my kids was not my own blood, the deception would cause me to downgrade the relationship with the kid and destroy it with the wife.

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@Pinelero I’m not advocating for it. I’m just pointing out women’s lack of grace in the matter. @bluepillprofessor April 9th, 2016 at 5:56 pm I’m not advocating for Christianity (here, having been raised Catholic, but not attending church, except when it looks good). Hell I don’t even know what grace actually is. So I had to look it it up in Wikipedia: In Western Christian theology, grace has been defined, not as a created substance of any kind, but as “the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not because of anything… Read more »

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I’m not advocating for it. I’m just pointing out women’s lack of grace in the matter. How I read you as well. An amazing thing is how easy it is for women to dismiss the significance of biological fatherhood. It’s almost as if it simply doesn’t matter to them. If that’s not an obvious flag of the FI, and the attendant idea that one sex’s sexual strategy must always impinge on the other sex’s sexual strategy, I don’t know what is. It places zero, zilch, nada importance on the male interest in having genetic progeny — again, it’s as if… Read more »

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“Motherhood isn’t about biology, it’s about a parental relationship” — said no woman ever.

kfg
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“It’s almost as if it simply doesn’t matter to them.”

They always know who the mother is.

Novaseeker
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They always know who the mother is. They always know who the biological father is, too, at least in most cases they do. It’s more that they want the power to determine who gets to act as the father. It’s alpha fux, beta bux power through duping, and they want that power. Of course, not very common, as we can see from the stats. But as a potential solution for some women, it seems to make visceral sense to all women to retain that power, and account no value at all to the interest of any man in actually having… Read more »

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Me, the judgmental guy, can’t stop laughing out loud at this one: “The only reason that judgment comes into it at all is the sad fact that there will always be dummies who refuse to trust a good thing when it’s handed to them on a platter.” ― Robert Farrar Capon, Kingdom, Grace, Judgment: Paradox, Outrage, and Vindication in the Parables of Jesus Double, triple LOL. The same quote could easily be said in defense of the praxeology of Red Pill Game and enjoying the feminine (as entirely complementary to the masculine, and at the same time upping the alpha,… Read more »

kfg
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“It’s more that they want the power to determine who gets to act as the father.”

The father does not always know who the father is.

Novaseeker
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The father does not always know who the father is.

Which is the point. Further, the father has no legitimate interest in knowing who the mere “biological sire” is.

kfg
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“Which is the point.”

When contrasted with my first comment. The inequality is profound.

Novaseeker
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When contrasted with my first comment. The inequality is profound.

Sure, motherhood is clear and bio-fatherhood is not, but paternity tests change that by at least excluding Man X from being the biological father. We can at least know who the father is not. That is being resisted because it is desired to retain the inequality, which grants women considerable power (provided the kid doesn’t look like he’s mixed race or something).

CSI
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I have read enough feminist advice columns to know what the standard advice here would be: The husband isn’t doing enough for her around the house, making her feel unappreciated and frazzled. Nor is he giving her enough affection. More importantly, whenever he does do chores, or show her affection, he’s doing it with the expectation it will lead to sex. This makes her feel objectified, like a piece of meat. So the solution is that he has to do a lot more around the house. He also has to take her on more dates, buy more presents for her.… Read more »

Sentient
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CSI

Yeah… this is what passes for traditional BP relationship advice, perhaps a bit more granular than “happy wife happy life” but of the same strain…

One of the most profound things some poster ever said “take that dick girl, take it good…”

THAT is some shit there… an answer to all your questions. But do you have what it takes to say it, and mean it?

SJF
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@CSI “This is nonsense, but I’ve seen this sort of advice a lot.” You didn’t get the memo that stated that “Virtue is Waning in Modern Feminist Women”? You know the virtue that is: “made up of truthfulness, patience, love and liberality; of prudence, justice, temperance and courage; and of all their adjuncts and circumstances: manners, consideration, fair speech and the ability to keep one’s mouth shut and one’s heart open, as needed” Lol again, I’m dying LOLing about this Capon guy’s words. No wonder he didn’t make any money writing a lot of books (no one woman or FI… Read more »

kfg
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” . . .Coinherence (Ed. whatever the hell that is). . .”

The unity of mankind analogous to the unity of the trinity. Coined by Charles Williams who was the other member of the club with Lewis and Tolkien.

What Wild Man is likely talking about when he says egalitarian.

CSI
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Yeah Sentient, from Red Pill theory its mainly passivity that turns women off. The standard BP/feminist advice to double down on the passivity will only make things worse. And I suspect the “imported remedy” at the end of that quotation by Robert Capon is Christianity, although Game is an interesting candidate. Anyhow is it lack of virtues like patience, compassion in contemporary woman that causes so much divorce? It would be a factor but not the main one. The main factor is merely that the stigma against divorce is now almost gone. Go back to the 19th and early 20th… Read more »

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So, I’m not advocating religion or first set of books. I just like how this Capon guy cuts through the shit like kfg. With the two being on different sides of the theist fence. (And I’m on the other side of the fence in regards to LTR. Which no man starting off from scratch should be committed to.) I’m certainly not advocating for marriage or LTR. It’s just where I happen to be and I’m doing fine. Seems there is a stacked deck these days. And the only card of any real value a man has to play or withhold… Read more »

SJF
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@CSI

“And I suspect the “imported remedy” at the end of that quotation by Robert Capon is Christianity”

Yes, that was requisite in the first set of books, but that ship has passed.

This gives real perspective on the second set of books and the lack of stigma on divorce these days:

https://therationalmale.com/2015/03/31/wives-lovers/

hoellenhund2
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If that’s not an obvious flag of the FI, and the attendant idea that one sex’s sexual strategy must always impinge on the other sex’s sexual strategy, I don’t know what is. It places zero, zilch, nada importance on the male interest in having genetic progeny — again, it’s as if that interest simply doesn’t exist, and is illegitimate to even take into consideration. Evil in my eyes, frankly. But then again, I’m a man. I wouldn’t say it’s evil per se, it’s deeply solipsistic, which is objectively worse than evil. Evil has an intent and self-awareness, it can be… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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A lot of people are doubting the results of the meta survey pointing out cuckoldry is below 3%. But there are several studies pointing this out, and the older one with the figure in 30% was done on subjects that suspected there was cuckoldry involved (i.e. not representative of the general population). Maybe. I can’t be bothered to check what their methodology was. I reckon there were others similar surveys with a result of 10%, which I find more plausible. We can also be sure that the cuckoldry rate varies greatly between different communities. On the other hand, imagine if… Read more »

IAS
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@hoellenhund2: (who is hoellenhund1?) Indeed, while 2% seems low, that means 1 in 50 men fathers are not the actual bio-father. If it was anything else it probably would be consider an “epidemic”.

As for studies with rates as high as 10%, the meta survey mentioned a couple of exceptions. The main one is in segments of the population where the father suspects he isn’t the bio-father, in which case the rate goes up to around 30%, but that is obviously a biased sample that is not representative of the general population.

IAS
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@Rollo: it is fairly obvious, as the mother knows (barring a maternity swap or some such) the kid is hers, it doesn’t even enter her mind that. It is built-in and guaranteed for her, so no problem there for them. Yet, in any situation when the “mother” would know they are not the bio-mother things change and it is possible to see their hypocrisy. There are even many classic stories where a main antagonist is an evil stepmother. How many barren/sterile women are 100% ok with adopting – or to make it close to what fathers have to go through… Read more »

IAS
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Wow my typing sucks today. Above should be “would be considered an “epidemic”.”

And below it would be

“it doesn’t even enter her mind that it should matter to the man.”

kfg
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“How many barren/sterile women . . . agree without qualms and without feeling bad about it, to have their husband impregnate another woman (either the old-fashion way or artificial insemination)?”

Call me Ishmael.

Ludiam0ndZ
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@softek She has already started devouring you lol. It’s funny, manipulative women like your current gf can smell someone with your unique psychological profile, they seek men with porous boundaries and then they literally start to chew on your psyche. Everyone here in multiple posts have told you to add another couple of plates and leave this woman eventually. Tell her no no no.. And if she asks you again tell her you will stop picking her calls up. She sounds like she’s making your life hell and this is just 7 months in? The key is to start limiting… Read more »

Ludiam0ndz
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As far as cuckoldry goes, science is science y’all can’t just slam some shit just cuz it disagrees with your perception of reality,

Meta studies are generally better than single studies, it’s probably true that we’ve overestimated the rate of cuckoldry, time to refine the theory a bit rather than sling shit at the study. It’s not like it throws hypergamy out the water entirely. I’m still curious about how they actually determined lineages across multiple generations if they didn’t have Dna samples from previous generations.

Ludiam0ndz
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@softek read @sjf comment very closely. Not the burning grass part of it. The part about mentor ship and having more male influences

If you’re ever in DC and want to kick it I will demonstrate how easy it is to find a chick to bang, girls are a dime a dozen. In any case you need to put some distance between yourself and this chick. take one week off from contact and see what your mind/body tells you. She is a prayingmantis and you’re already sustaining damage brah.

SJF
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“@softek read @sjf comment very closely. Not the burning grass part of it.” LoL. But don’t entirely discount the burning grass part of it….. That part is about a man being alone in the wilderness of life and self reflecting. Time away from the noise of others, by himself, to understand who he is and what he stands for and where he is going. That part is not for nothing. But, alas, it might take having had lots of experiences and no small amount of resources. That part is difficult, but necessary. Spend some time alone, with distance from others,… Read more »

IAS
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@Ludiamondz: the meta survey explained 3 of the methods used, see figure 1 here: http://www.cell.com/pb-assets/journals/trends/ecology-evolution/tree2086.pdf If I understand correctly, one of them works as follows: get 2 men that share a common male ancestor several generations back, compare their Y chromosomes, and from that they can spot if there was an EPP somewhere along their respective lineages. It isn’t clear how they are able to do that, as from what I get the 2 men share a common male ancestor several generations back, but they don’t share the same grandfather, father etc. so how a EPP father is different I… Read more »

IAS
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Well looking for the reference of the method, the paper is titled
Religion as a means to assure paternity

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/25/9781.full

“We show that paternity certainty was higher in the indigenous religion than in Christianity, which we attribute to the abandonment of menstrual taboos by the Christians.” (the indigenous religion is at 1.3% vs 2.9% for Christians).

Just getting it
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Why does a cuck rate of 1-3% seem implausible?

Because the ‘lack of concern’ from the female for paternity assurance doesn’t even get half way there to describing how women feel about it.
Look at how the Spectator bitch ended her piece:

‘But in making paternity conditional on a test rather than the say-so of the mother, it has removed from women a powerful instrument of choice. I’m not sure that many people are much happier for it.’

She doesn’t think anyone is happier for it! Men are not people according to her description of people above.

Forge the Sky
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“It isn’t clear how they are able to do that, as from what I get the 2 men share a common male ancestor several generations back, but they don’t share the same grandfather, father etc. so how a EPP father is different I am not sure. Anyone knows?” What the paper is (to my understanding) leaving out is that there needs to be a continuous line of male ancestors back to the common male ancestor for this to work. So you can’t compare, say, man A and B where man A is the son of the son of the son… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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“Why does a cuck rate of 1-3% seem implausible?”

Because people like to correlate how strongly they feel about something with how strong a force it actually is.

kfg
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“Men are not people according to her description of people above.”

The inequality is profound.

ludiam0ndz
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@sfj agreed, I was thinking the grass could be a metaphor for softeks relationship, def burn that shit down and prepare for new growth. Also I hadn’t read the entire thread when i posted, I see you and others have chimed in with the support softek needs, didn’t mean to sound flippant/dismissive, just got a flashback reading some of his posts and i’m sounding an alarm. He’s simply not ready to be in a long term relationship, not until boundaries are much more solid. @Ias appreciate the links, interesting questions and definitely an interesting study. Pre-birth control/abortion/dna testing, you’d almost… Read more »

IAS
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@Ludiamondz: that particular study is a single culture, the Dogon culture, with many religions. They don’t use contraception (apparently part of their culture). As I said a few comments ago, my interpretation is indeed that the various religions did work to keep it below 5%, now it is birth control that is keeping it below 5%. @Just getting it: the low rate seems credible to me, I’m not as cynical to think all of these studies are reporting lower than reality because they are being controlled by the FI (or some other conspiracy). But some people in TRP reddit or… Read more »

YaReally
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YaReally
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@ludiamondz on @Softek “He’s simply not ready to be in a long term relationship, not until boundaries are much more solid.” Reality is he’s not going to dump sex and go back to voluntarily being single because of what we say here, there’s no logic that’s going to convince a guy in this situation: “That combined with the fear of catastrophic loss — losing the only constant relationship I’ve ever had in my entire life and fearing that I won’t ever be able to find another one. I never had one before this, and I was in my mid 20’s… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
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@hoell: I have long argued that the reason the marriage strike and MGTOW are so important is because it just might inconvenience women, however slightly. You see, men blowing out their brains to the tune of 60,000 a year is not important. Men becoming homeless is no big deal. Men dying early is just the way it is. Family court bias is for the children you pig.i Men robbed of their biological inheritance is just the way the cookie crumbles. Tough beans guys. NONE of the pain of men will spur social change. Nobody cares about the pain of men,… Read more »

The Jin
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@BPProf

The absence of non attractive men will not be noticed.

Spinsters will just blame other women for stealing their alpha or come up with some other hamsterisation.

The solution will be more state handouts. Probably a cat food subsisdy.

Alphas running the state will provide said handouts in exchange for those sweet, sweet votes and the ability to be sucked off by starry eyed interns inbetween banking offshored cash.

The last bit of swallowing the red pill is the knowledge that things will not change.

kfg
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“The last bit of swallowing the red pill is the knowledge that things will not change . . .”

. . . by themselves.

ludiam0ndz
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@Yareally, It certainly appears that way as far as learning from experience. smh in a way this is me yelling back at my past self lol. So be it. I’m done with my preaching.

Sun Wukong
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@kfg “The last bit of swallowing the red pill is the knowledge that things will not change . . .” . . . by themselves. This. The thing about bottom-up change (which really is what TRP is about to me) though is that while its slow, it also tends to be much longer lasting than top-down change. It’s like a person changing their internals vs. just learning ape particular externals. By the mere act of discussing how the world actually works and making it available to as many people as possible, bottom-up change is enacted. It will take a lot… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@YaReally That’s one thing I can safely say I won’t and don’t suffer from anymore, but it’s because I’ve had a fair amount of experience before making a conscious effort to learn pick up. Hell it’s the only thing I feel I’ve got a solid grasp of at this point: my view of LTRs is tempered by experience and dots being connected. I have a really rough time with all the stuff of starting relationships due to a lot of the standard issues, but even in scarcity I’ve walked away from relationships that were clearly destructive a few times in… Read more »

YaReally
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@bluepillprofessor “However, if you inconvenience women in even the slightest way? THAT is the spur for social change.” This. It’ll be fascinating to see what happens when women are on the frontlines in war and gay/lesbian marriages go through divorce rapes etc. Even recently there was that sad-ass piece about how unfair alimony is and how it MUST be fixed, because some rich chicks had to pay it…meanwhile no one gives a shit at how many low-value dudes (or high-value even) are going through hell paying alimony. Once stuff affects women, society will fix it (at least for THEM, but… Read more »

Gregg Van Beek
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@anon….. really? you use the stupid “women are paid 80% of what a man makes”? IF it was true, whey don’t Fortune 500 companies hire all women and cut their costs 20%? It’s a LIE. When you figure out all the variables. You know, like the job’s difficulty, hours worked, etc. Male MD’s make more money than females, BUT they work more hours. Facts are facts

Andy
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Andy
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“Dude is going to get burned and he’s going to get burned hard, his LTR has been over for a while because they’re on different paths and his brain just doesn’t want to accept it, which is TOTALLY NORMAL” RE: Softek. Oh yeah. Been there. You have that nagging feeling that you know it isn’t right, and it just keeps getting worse, and worse. Then when you finally can’t take it anymore you break up. Then a week later you have crazy sex… Then a week after that he’ll be seeing her every day again. Then she’ll cheat on you.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Andy Ya, that’s…a good summary. Basically exactly what happened w/ my previous oneitis, except she (I’m fairly sure) had the decency to not actually bang the other guy before we broke things off (just knew he was interested, so she had the branch swing in hand). And now that I’ve finally eaten that and moved on there’s this cute, kind, sane girl from a good family that’s interested. I would be very surprised if she’d be ok with a pLTR situ though, which is my goal, so here we are. I’ll try not to fail too hard What’s kinda fascinating… Read more »

Andy
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@Forge “And now that I’ve finally eaten that and moved on there’s this cute, kind, sane girl from a good family that’s interested.” “See, here an open would be easier than your mom’s pie. And an HB5 is fine, for practice if nothing else. But she was low energy, low confidence, and was coming across very negatively.” I don’t know how you can tell if a girl is crazy or not at first. Maybe the yaReallys of the world can. The cluster-B I dated would have come across as a SUPER positive, happy-go-lucky chick at first. In my experience they… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Blax

But she looked hurt.

She expected you to feel her feelz. But men aren’t women and maybe she didn’t get the memo.

theasdgamer
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@ Forge

I found some blended rare Clan McGregor in my liquor cabinet. Sooo smooth! It’s inherited booze and only cost 10.89 when bought maybe 20 odd years ago. It had been unopened.

theasdgamer
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@ Sentient “Funny how you try to make it about me not getting laid. What’s your “N”?” Why does this matter? Get past this issue, it’s holding you back man. What if his N is great than yours? what if he is having hot sex as much as he wants with whoever he wants? Or not having sex with a broad if you don’t want to. Don’t think you have to just because some men on the interwebz say that you ought to. Rooting for you to get past this trap you have made for yourself. I used to be… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Crimson, Will, kfg “Because withdrawal of sex is a form of abandonment equivalent to cancelling a marriage contract . . .” In fact, until within my own lifetime, it used to be cause for cancelling the marriage contract. I told Mrs. Gamer that withholding sex was cheating on the marriage covenant. Even worse than breaking the exclusivity clause. The next bomb I will drop is that any kind of withholding is cheating. Still, Mrs. Gamer initiates frequently and wants hugs and goes for my package just because. A lot. Her whistle was blowing every 15 secs for a while… Read more »

having a bad day
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@Forge props on the FR… And now that I’ve finally eaten that and moved on there’s this cute, kind, sane girl from a good family that’s interested. I would be very surprised if she’d be ok with a pLTR situ though, which is my goal, so here we are. never know til you try…lol… anything less = FI in play… bc she’s a ‘good girl’… and could never want THAT…lol… I’ll try not to fail too hard you SHOULD be failing hard… and fast…lol…that’s the best way to push past those boundary issues… What’s kinda fascinating to me is how… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ scray

some would give weird hints ‘hey can’t go there im cleaning my house, you want to come help me?’

Could be beta bait…otoh, I remember a couple of sisters who asked me to come over and look at their computer and they asked me if I ever partied…maybe that was a hint at a threesome…I was in boy scout mode back then…ghey

theasdgamer
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@ fleezer

my point is that for every “dead bedroom” you read about, there is a “live bedroom” that you don’t

I call bullshit. Haven’t you read the Kinsey statistics about married sex and marriage duration?

theasdgamer
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@ YaReally I really enjoyed your post about indirect method. That’s been my MO all my life without even realizing it. It has also led to crossed signals and some women dq’ing themselves if I didn’t pull the trigger quickly. I have used direct at least once. I’m engaging her to see if I WANT her. Or engaging her because she’s the bartender and engaging her gives social proof and maybe she’s easy to talk to…and then maybe she hopes that you want her…women still surprise me a lot…one told me that I was charming and she dq’d a rival… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@asd heh, cool! That’s probably the best Clan McGregor ever drunk. A new bottle ain’t so great. @Andy “In my experience they can hide the crazy pretty well for 3 months or so.” Yes, if you haven’t run into their particular brand of crazy before. When I look back at my relationship, there were actually misgivings and red flags early on. Buuut I’m sure there’s plenty of brands of crazy I’ve yet to run in to “Anyway, ever worked retail? Pretty much the worst. I don’t know if it’s possible to be a positive person in that situation. Sounded like… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Thanks @habd! Lame FR I know, it really was just a random series of events that happened to me lol. I don’t have a sarge FR from this weekend cause I got sick. Bloody. Hell. Gonna see if I can go out during the workweek to make up for it, heh. Set up a day 2 for Wed already, we’ll see how it rolls. “that’s what a submissive DTF girl actually looks like in the wild… lol… she was throwing herself at you and you bailed…lol… did she pass the boner test or not?… if yes, was she hotter that… Read more »

Mazrim
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Mazrim
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Funny thing, if my gf or spouse started “crying” because I approached her for sex and/or intamacy, I’d assume she was cheating and demand she get the fuck out of my house. But at this point I’m only interested banging the booty calls of my mini-harem (2-3 plates ain’t a true harem, right?) at THEIR place. It’s much easier to leave on my terms then having to tell them to leave when I didn’t invite them to spend the night in the first place. However, I must admit I scored 100, 100, and 68 on my last dark tirade test.… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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Yollo Comanche
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Mazrim@

“Overconfidence beats rational defeatism every time.”

Do you pack a weapon everywhere you go? Just comparing notes.

having a bad day
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having a bad day
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@Forge Lame FR I know, not lame… stop that… = FI in play… it really was just a random series of events that happened to me lol. I don’t have a sarge FR from this weekend cause I got sick. that WAS a ‘sarging’ FR… girls are where you find them…lol… and to think that you need to ‘schedule’ a special trip to meet girls = FI in play… bc they are the prize… you can just meet them wherever…lol… but DON”T stop going out…lol… Gonna see if I can go out during the workweek to make up for it,… Read more »

Shanae
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Shanae
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Obvious manipulation is obvious?
Also all your making up experiences of being abused by woman or simply not getting sex.
Two can play at that game!

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eghost247
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Reblogged this on eghost247.

And this Is Why Many Of Us Good Men Are Still Single Today.
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And this Is Why Many Of Us Good Men Are Still Single Today.
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Most of the single women nowadays are damaged goods to begin with since they will always go with the bad boy type of guy especially if he is rich which most of the time they do sleep around so much. And can you really imagine if they only knew how to be just faithful to only one guy which would be a miracle anyway especially if they could only like the guy for himself.

And this Is Why Many Of Us Good Men Are Still Single Today.
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It is very unfortunate that most of the single women nowadays are such damaged goods to begin with since they like sleeping around with all different kinds of men all the time every chance they get.

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[…] point from which a soon-to-be-divorced man will have his undoing begin. So prevalent is the presumption of abuse on a man’s part that even the most saintly father can be remade into a secret monster. […]

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[…] “Those girls are just damaged.” […]

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