Wives & Lovers


(h/t Zelscorpion for the screen cap)

In Women Behaving Badly I made mention of Dalrock’s standing assertions that the context of romantic love has superseded the condition of a committed monogamy – traditionally marriage – as an idealized goal-state. Essentially this represents a reversal of a previous intersexual dynamic that served as a check and balance of women’s innate Hypergamy:

What nearly all modern Christians have done is place romantic love above marriage.  Instead of seeing marriage as the moral context to pursue romantic love and sex, romantic love is now seen as the moral place to experience sex and marriage.  This inversion is subtle enough that no one seems to have noticed, but if you look for it you will see it everywhere.

Lifetime marriage, with separate defined roles for husband and wife and true commitment is what makes sex and romantic love moral in the biblical view.  In our new view, romantic love makes sex moral, and the purpose of marriage is to publicly declare that you are experiencing the highest form of romantic love.  Thus people now commonly refer to a wedding as “making our love official”.

The gradations we now apply to romantic love are symptomatic of the problem.  We take great care to distinguish between “pure love” or “true love” and mere “infatuation” or “puppy love”.

[…] Because it is love and not marriage which now confers morality upon sex, sex outside of marriage is now considered moral so long as you are in love.  Thus we have the modern harlot’s defense/anthem “but we were in love!”

I think what Dal was getting at with this (and I hope he’ll comment) has a much broader reach than just in Christian (“Churchian”) culture. I think this raising of romantic love to the highest order is more punctuated in a religious context because, doctrinally, it should be the reverse. In an objective secular context this reversal is all but taken for granted.

In an age of feminine social primacy women’s feelings of romance are at a premium. We matter of factly presume that it’s a man’s responsibility to not only invest himself in, and provide resources for, his wife and children’s wellbeing, but it’s also (almost exclusively) his burden of performance to stimulate and maintain his wife’s romantic interests.

I’ve argued the position that women (of today) don’t find the ‘good guy‘ – a man attempting to embody the best aspects of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks – a believable role. My assertion is that women expect and desire those aspects in different men at different times as needed, however, the social narrative still places that “best of both aspects” burden on a man who does commit to a woman in the long term.

With the exception of only the most adept, affluent and exceptional of men, this expectation is a sisyphean recipe for failure. No matter which aspect he excels in the other aspect potentially becomes his personal flaw. Although his personal strengths may compensate, feminine-primary social expectations place him in a no-win position.

Wives Hate Sex

Badpainter and Sun Wukong had an interesting exchange in this week’s comment thread:


Newgal states clearly women must be sluts for men to get laid. This also means women must be sluts for women to get laid. Why must that be true? Because Newgal alludes to a dirty little truth so ingrained in the social consciousness it’s a cliché: wives hate sex. Therefore women, sluts and otherwise, get married so they can stop having sex except as necessary to get pregnant.

Think about it.

The girlfriend provides sex good enough to motivate a desire in the man to commit. After the wedding is a period of at least adequate sex followed by a decline to little or nothing if she can get away with this. When the wife becomes suitably frustrated/disenchanted with the marriage she changes title to divorcée and is again free to become a sexual creature.

The source of the problem is that women have very little sense of self that is internally derived therefore they play roles defined externally. These roles are proxies for their identities which barely exist. In 2015 wives are not defined as sexually giving, or sexual at all except for the honeymoon period. If the sexual wife exists in this culture it as the adulteress giving herself to men other than her husband.

Sun Wukong

Oh absolutely. The wife that hates sex is such a “thing” now I really think it’s what makes even Blue Pill guys at least pause on their way to the altar. “Do I really want to put a libido draining fat license on her finger?” I think that premise is largely built out of feminine cynicism about settling for [Beta Bucks]. They all know the script so well that they assume they’re going to marry a guy they don’t want to fuck. Imagine that: assuming you’re going to hate sex for the rest of your life.

What a horrendously awful view of a man you haven’t even met yet. And he’s not even met you but assumes he’ll be happily making love to you for the rest of his life and you’ll do the same. What a disconnect. Oh well, at least the kids will be happy right? Anybody?

What Badpainter and Sun have illustrated here is the direct result of placing a romantic condition for love as the prime requisite for a committed relationship. It’s important to grasp that any relationship founded on genuine desire will necessitate genuine passion and not a small amount of feral lust, however, it is exactly this pre-commitment (Alpha Fucks) sexual chemistry that will later become the exclusive responsibility of a man in that commitment.

The character that is a wife is now socially and popularly expected to move into a sexless, passionless and unexciting condition by being married today. All Epiphany Phase rationalizations aside, marriage is viewed as the end of the party. Being a wife is boring by comparison.

I explored this in detail in Beta Fucks and As Good As It Gets, but what I find ironic in light of Dalrock’s assertions about romance-primary intergender dynamics is that the very pretense of that romantic “true love” context that supposedly legitimizes sex is killed within the confines of marriage. In fact, women expect and anticipate that the sexual desire they find so important in that romantic context will necessarily die once they become a ‘wife’.

The pretext of being a ‘wife’ is a socially excusable expectation of progressively losing sexual affinity for the man she’s agrees to marry, so what woman wants to be a wife? Women become wives due to the necessities an ever-decreasing capacity to maintain being a lover requires of them.

I expect that most women will disagree with me on a personal level; it’s not in women’s best interest to acknowledge that wives hate sex – perpetuating the belief that sex gets better after marriage is a necessity men need to internalize in order to commit. Whether or not this is true for a woman on a personal basis isn’t my point. The point is that the societal message is one that marriage will necessarily kill a couples’ passionate sexual connection in comparison to their single, romance-based sexual connection.

Why ruin a perfectly good relationship with marriage?

The Myth of Mismatched Libidos

Once married, there are myriad social conventions already emplaced for a wife to rely upon as she moves from exciting singleness into mundane, but necessary, long-term commitment. Most of these she’s already been conditioned to expect she can rely on. ‘Mismatched Libidos’ is a common refrain for women (and marriage counselors) who come to a point where they can no longer palate the “duty sex” they felt responsible for in the beginnings of their marriage.

Her husband isn’t expected to provide the ‘tingles, but he’s still responsible for the failure to create them. As I said, only the most exceptional of men can effortlessly inspire the admiration necessary to maintain a woman’s Hypergamous interest. If you have a read of the screen cap Zel provided us with for this post you’ll get an idea of how those pre-made social conventions work in tandem with men’s default responsibility of satisfying a woman’s endless discontent.

The deference is always to the feminine, thus any problem (particularly sexual ones) he has with her become his personal issues and flaws. Any deviation, any dissatisfaction, with the ready-made social conventions set in place to excuse the female sexual strategy are solely his responsibility and his character flaws.

The ship is going down, and I’ve only got three life jackets. Who am I going to give them to? John, you learned to swim a long time ago, right?

In last week’s post comments I quoted the following confessional from Love Shack:

My wife called me today and was all excited about some beachfront apartment she saw. She wants us to buy it for vacations and such.

Now here I am .. I just turned 50. My youngest is going to college this year and I guess I just realized that I’m no longer bound to her.

The last 20 years has been a long series of quickies and 3 minutes handjobs every 3-4 weeks. In between, I spent my prime sexual years mostly masturbating to get off. Now that I’m 50, my drive is still good, but it’s not what it was.

I had tried everything I could think of over those 20 years to get things on track. I was exemplary with chores around the house, I was attentive to her emotional needs as far as I could anticipate them, and even if I do say so myself – I’ve kept myself in outstanding shape (although that was more for me).

On the other hand, I look back and I can hardly remember a time that she spontaneously gave me a neck rub, or cooked something just for me as opposed to all of us, and certainly not even attempting to do something special for me sexually (yeah, I have a minor kink or two).

But when she asked me to buy a beachfront place today – my immediate reaction was annoyance. I realized then that I feel resentful. I have decided to leave her. There is absolutely nothing she can do now to change anything because the past cannot be changed.

This man’s situation represents the ending phase of a chronic lack of admiration on his wife’s part. It would be easy to point out his role is one of being the dutiful unconsidered provider in his wife’s Frame, however, consideration is never a motivator of genuine desire for a woman. Only admiration and an ambient imagination of losing the focus of it inspires genuine desire.

Girl With A Dragonfly Tattoo had a post recently outlining the expectations of women interested in “seducing” a man. On GWADT’s blog what’s implied is that this man is in fact her husband to begin with. What makes her points so difficult for married women to digest is that they should ever need to make an effort to do so. The reason this is so alien a thought to married women is because the men they wanted to seduce were the men they knew before they became ‘wives’. Wives have no use for seduction, and particularly so with the Beta men they settled for around their Epiphany Phase. Seduction, compassion, appreciation (such as can be expected of a woman) only become a necessity when women are subjected to a real preoccupation with losing a valuable man – a man they admire.

Even in Frank Sinatra’s time wives had to be told to be lovers too.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

378 comments on “Wives & Lovers

  1. My buddy got married and his wife pulled the no sex thing. he told her if she didnt give up, he would get it elsewhere. she didnt realize how alpha he was. they have been divorced for 7 years and he’s banged another 100 broads. If you want sex dont get married, marriage is only for raising children. if your wife wont fuck you, then tell her you ll get some on the side. (women will get away with ONLY WHAT YOU ALLOW. there is no substitute for laying down the law with your women.

  2. Wives have no use for seduction

    Not when it comes to their husbands, but when you’re the one on the side that they are out to get, they certainly manage quite nicely. Which is one of the reasons that I will NEVER marry. No thank you. I prefer being the prize that is won for a night, and that they have to re-win is they expect another bedding…

    That is why marriages are always doomed – the woman no longer has to compete for the man, and if she isn’t competing for you, she will be competing for another man. Never forget that… Women are always competing for the man they want to bed them – if she isn’t competing for you, you should ask yourself, “who is she after”??

    You don’t have to take it from me – you’ll learn it for yourself, eventually…

  3. >> men’s default responsibility of satisfying a woman’s endless discontent

    This isn’t really about marriage, it’s about the decline of passion that comes with increased familiarity and “identification” with a partner. No distance, no uncertainty, no passion.

    The endless discontent is the problem/reality.

    A lover of mine (who’s on the rampage for “more” right now) said, “A woman, always, wants, more.” I think that’s the most important lesson I’ve learned in the last year… you can’t quench that thirst, so don’t try. Do what you feel like, then prepare to walk away (test her) and find something new.

    Marriage is toward the end of the list of the kind of compliance that leads men to crash/burn. It’s everything before that too.

    I’ve been listening to The Black Phillip Show lately (harsh, over-the-top, but genius), and Patrice has it right: “You can’t be afraid to take an ‘L'” He means, “don’t be afraid to let her walk away.” He’s right. And men with plenty… which are rare men… aren’t afraid.

    Yes, women will test endlessly to watch you try to feed their “hungry ghosts.” But as guys, we’re too afraid of being alone, too afraid to do the work to be attractive, so we say yes (to her terms), she senses the “weakness,” and thing deteriorate from there.

  4. we are going far down into the rabbit hole with this post

    what does a married man do in the face of this

    a married man is trapped in a game, in a system, in a frame, where he cannot possibly win. and it all happens the day you stand at the altar in front of 100 people, many of whom are married themselves, and don’t tell the guy that ‘the joke is on you’

    any guy with half a brain and a halfway decent SMV will do what the 50 yr old guy depicted above does

    once the kids hit 18 and off to college — off goes your wedding ring

    the only reasonable solution. if your wife couldn’t find it within herself to ‘provide another life jacket for you’ for 25 years of marriage well…

    a man can find it within himself to throw her overboard first

    as she would say…. “it’s nothing personal”

  5. If you leave your wedding ring on and go out, you’ll be a target of married women. They will figure that you don’t want to blow up your marriage and they don’t want to either. But they want sex with someone other than their husbands.

  6. Not married man here. One thing I have learned from Dalrock or some other Christian blog and have observed from afar, is that marriage was not for romantic feelings, or individual passions, much less sexual attraction and whatnot.
    You and your spouse married to expand your communities, families, culture, to raise children, marriage is a duty.
    Hence the enormous social and cultural constraints against divorce, individually, purely from rational self-interest, marriage is a bad proposition.
    Leo Tolstoi talks about it in “The Kreutzer Sonata” and in “War and Peace”.

  7. @theasdgamer

    I’ve always been tempted to try and get an old wedding ring from a pawn shop just to see if the game is that different.

  8. >> But they want sex with someone other than their husbands.
    @ theasdgamer

    That’s exactly right… it’s not that wives hate sex, they just give up in the face of the providing husband, in the face of too much shared tameness to take him seriously sexually anymore.

    He is as bored w/ sex with her as she is, but something in the psychology of men vs women in this context *does* mean that he’ll still try in ways that she won’t… and it’s not because he’s excited about it.

    >> The deference is always to the feminine, thus any problem (particularly sexual ones) he has with her become his personal issues and flaws


    That… and that it’s not masculine to go asexual. So even without the FI, he’ll feel less-than for having no sex life in way that she will not.

  9. You do not need to get married at all. You do not need to get married to have children, just have all your kids with one woman and shield your assets so she cannot use the courts to abuse you. Marriage was invented long ago in a different time with different cultural expectations. Marriage today for the modern man is as useful as a horse and carriage for transportation, quaint but not practical.

    You will not fuck your wife anymore, you will not fuck your wife anymore, YOU WILL NOT FUCK YOUR WIFE ANYMORE! You will spend your days looking forward to the newest posts on Pornhub, and reliving your single life conquests when you jerk off in the shower every morning. You can go to the gym 2 hours a day 5 days a week, you can dress well and groom impeccably, you can be funny and attractive so much so that other women are openly attracted to you, none of this will matter to your wife-she does not want to fuck you ever again, EVER! You can not “Alpha” your way out of it, your six pack does not matter, the fact that other women want to fuck you does not matter-She does not want to fuck you anymore and the more you try the more disgusted she is by your presence.

    Here is the kicker, if you are in shape and take care of yourself you will look up one day and a younger attractive girl will give you the eye. You are going to fuck the shit out of that girl, years of pent up sexual energy will be unleashed and you will fuck this new piece of ass like you have never fucked before. You will come and be ready for round 2 in five minutes flat. Then you will fuck some more , and you will not even be close to coming (likely due to the fact that after years of masturbation only sex your kung fu grip has made achieving orgasm difficult even with the tightest of young vagina) but you will still thrust away, just amazed that someone young and attractive found you desirable. Four hours later after you have fucked this poor girl to death, you are going to go home to that frigid cunt who has kept you in a sexual wasteland for years and you are going to look at her when you walk in the house and act like everything is fine. But in your mind you are going to ask “why should I continue to suffer married celibacy?” That is the Red Fucking Pill.

  10. I know I talk a lot of shit, I know that people find me abrasive, but the truth is you are being lied to. The next time you can get a married man alone (not a newlywed) and ask him how his sex life is- he is going to lie to you so he can feel better about his fucked up lot in life. The internet is finally pulling back the curtain on how much married life sucks, and thank god for that!

  11. Another one out of the park.

    “Only admiration and an ambient imagination of losing the focus of it inspires genuine desire.”

    TLDR: Be a man to be respected and when in doubt, Dread Game.

  12. Atlanta Man, your question:

    “why should I continue to suffer married celibacy?”

    Can be asked and answered well before you ‘cheat’ or file for divorce or it can be answered after.

    Click on my name and head on over to Married Red Pill. We can possibly help if you are willing to check your attitude at the door. You are wrong that Dread does not usually stoke sexual desire in women or that there are not other steps to take but painfully correct on the status of most marriages in the West today.

  13. Hmm. This post just makes me think. It’s a pretty simple dynamic, really.

    Men—>Women—>Children. Just like in Rollo’s post ‘Hierarchies of Love.’ Put a man in charge of a relationship and he’ll make sure his needs are taken care of as well as his women and his children. Put women in charge, as in the culturally normative contemporary marriage, and the woman has no particular impulse to make sure her man’s needs are taken care of. It just seems annoying and burdensome if he brings them up. She takes care of her own and her children’s needs. Only. Woman simply don’t naturally have a protective or nurturing instinct towards men as men do towards women.

    The brighter side of this, if you can capitalize on it. There is a part of a woman’s psyche that is motivated and primed to take care of a man’s needs – if he is perceived as being a man (read: alpha) and not an androgene (read: beta).

    My limited experience with this – I have been perceived as alpha (at least for a time) in two prior relationships. Largely due, back then, to social proof and a streak Renaissance man making me conversationally confident. But the beta programming runs deep – the poor girls were terribly confused by my unwillingness to command them, to let them know how they could best fulfill my needs – sexually, yes, but also just in day-to-day tasks and affairs. In truth, I was so programmed in submitting my needs to others that I didn’t even know what to ask for – or that I could even want another to do things for me. Even after I stopped being confused about what they were asking for, why they were being so passive and waiting for my lead, when I recognized what they wanted I didn’t know how to provide it. I didn’t know what I wanted or needed, or how to ask or command service of another.

    The red pill is systemic. It all hangs together, your success in simply being your best self, in having congruent objectives, in having success with women – none are at all separate from the other. Finding what I wanted in life, and what I wanted to accomplish with my energy (work in progress yes, but getting there fast now rather than not at all) creates a solid frame. I don’t have to manufacture a sense of being outcome-independant or dominant if I simply have an objective and a person whom I believe willing to help me – I simply instruct them how to best serve my objective. If they can’t or won’t, I misjudged them and will find someone who can serve my objectives.

    So this can work. It sucks that we have to struggle to make it work in a culture that makes us fight an uphill battle, but pay the culture no mind and focus just upon what makes human sense. It’s like staying healthy in a sugar-crazed, fast-food flooded, screen-addled society. Sure, you have to struggle a bit at times. But identify fast and fried foods as toxic, and the candy bar display at checkout as destructive marketing, and buy mostly foods that look as they did a century ago, and keep the junk out of your house – out of easy access – and you are spared the worst ravages.

    It’s the same here. Identify the junk. Don’t let it in. And keep a watcher at the gates for when media or friends or church try to pull you down into the morass of common thought.

  14. “The brighter side of this, if you can capitalize on it. There is a part of a woman’s psyche that is motivated and primed to take care of a man’s needs – if he is perceived as being a man (read: alpha) and not an androgene (read: beta). “

    This looks contradictory with what I wrote just before it, since I forgot to clarify one thing.

    Women, I feel, don’t have any impulse to watch out for their men’s needs – alpha or beta. They just don’t see it as being something to contemplate or worry about. They do, however, have a strong impulse to follow the commands or requests of someone she perceives as ‘higher’ than her – such as an alpha man. It’s from following his lead, and getting the sense that she satisfied his expectations of her, that she feels happy and validated.

    I have a younger sister who really looks up to our father. He is very kind to her and protects her, and is very much ‘in charge’ of things around his wife and daughters. When she gets a new dress or purse or scent or whatever, she will show it to him to get his approval; if she’s not sure of it beforehand, it’s a nervous, hand-wringing affair for her. The slightest hint of disapproval and no praise will convince her to wear it again. Approval is met with utmost delight and several days of proudly showing off the item to friends.

    It’s like that.

  15. @Rollo,

    Thanks for the link! That’s almost kinda scary, really. It’s like men just fall outside the purview of our species’ compassionate impulses.

  16. http://therationalmale.com/2012/02/08/sexy/

    Show Up Naked, Bring Beer

    Another great irony of our age is that we still cling to the idea that it’s women who are the best seducers of humanity. In the same misdirection that women would like to believe that they are the more romantic gender, so too would they like to believe they are the most effective seducers. Both of these are far from the truth. It’s Men with the greatest art that have gone down in history as the greatest seducers of the genders. So much more is required of Men to be effective seducers than women.

    In this age female seduction amounts to show up naked, bring beer.

    Men are stimulated primarily by the physical, but there’s a lot more a woman can do to be seductive. Quite honestly I think seduction is a lost art for women. Very few women know how to be sexy, much less seductive. Even fewer ever feel a need to be seductive. This is due to an environment that, for the past 50 years, has simplified sexual exchange for women to the point that all she need do is stay somewhat fit and wear a thong occasionally. So many men have become so acclimated to just these visual prompts as sexual cues that women don’t really need to learn seduction. There is no greater reward for being sexy or seductive beyond what she’s already capable of prompting in a man, so seduction practices aren’t reinforced for her.

    Now add to this the feminine priority westernized culture has placed on women’s sexuality. Any woman feeling a need to be seductive for a man is cast in the role of putting his sexual value above her own. Remember, according to Cosmo and Oprah it is he who needs to be sensitive to her needs. Her sexuality is a GIFT he qualifies for, not something she should ever feel a need to sell to him by means of seduction.

    Women don’t need to seduce men anymore. The feminine-priority dynamic has put a default value on women’s sexuality. Those hot enough to simply wear something revealing never need seduction, and those not hot enough can’t sell it anyway. And the girls who’re in between – the one’s who’d benefit most – are discouraged from learning seduction since it’s denigrating to women who should already be on a pedestal to begin with.

    Ever since the sexual revolution there’s been less and less motivation for women to develop seduction skills. If anything there’s a resentment for ever having needed them in the past. I’d argue that feminine seduction skills have been replaced with emotional and psychological manipulations (see BPD) in order to make men comply with their imperatives as a result of having abandoned those seduction behaviors.

    It’s Men who are learning seduction skills now. How many men do you suppose have read the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene in comparison to women? It’s men who’ve created a global community dedicated to seduction techniques. Perhaps this is the best evidence of the gender reversal the community discusses so often? Women’s sexuality has been elevated to such a degree that it’s men who find it necessary to collectively study seduction.

  17. Well Love Shack’s tale is almost the same as mine. Funny thing is she telegraphed it to me before we were even married! Still remember her comment was that she had not expected me to be as good in bed as I was and this was after we were engaged. At the time I thought why on earth would a woman pursue (and that is what she did, she was all hot to get married as she was pushing 30 when she met me) some one she expected to be a dud in bed for the rest of her life? Well AF and BB and I was the beta! Totally sexless now, have not even seen my wife naked in over two years and the best years of my life wasted trying to get sex out of the shrew. Thought I was marrying someone with a low N count but found out I was number 31 or there abouts (she let that slip when the doctor asked her that in front of me otherwise I’d still be in the dark).

    This was my second marriage the first lasted less than 2 years but she was heaven compared to my current wife. Wanted sex of every kind more than once a day, Cooked for me, gave me back rubs every day after work. But she was a slut and decided she wanted more dick so away she went, too bad but expected.

    The carousel has a powerful attraction to women, they really, really want to go back to it and those that are forced off and settle for the beta bucks resent their husbands and feel, I would say, in some way that the husband is holding them back from the fun and excitement that they had. So you have more than one thing going on, they’re almost certainly an Alpha widow and some experience in their sexual past outshines anything you’ll ever be able to give them and they resent the hell out of you for holding them back from that fun and excitement.

    Not that I care too much either way no that I’m well past 50, my T level crashed and burned a few years ago so pretty much lost all interest in sex. It’s a horrible feeling of emptiness like something has been removed from you but it has solved my endless fight for sex with my wife. Of course now that I’m no longer interested in sex she treats me with even more contempt and I fully expect her to pull the trigger on the marriage sometime in the near future. Not that I care except I know the state will take a good bit of my pay check for her support.

    So the lesson here is that if you have to get married, marry a virgin so that at least she won’t have experienced anything better than you and she won’t know what’s she’s missing on the carousel. Also don’t get married in any westernized country as the temptation for even that gal may be too much.

  18. If you are high value in a girls mind, then she would be thrilled to marry you. Then, if you love her, and you are high value to her and she’s really hot, I don’t see what the problem is………………..everyone wins.

  19. @ Will

    Agree. But only with actual words you used. I note you didn’t say to marry.

    Put a ring on it and your burden of performance goes up, Up, UP! On the downside you get a wife. Better to have a girlfriend, or three angling for the position.

  20. Which one of the followings causes a wife/girlfriend to stop fucking you:

    1,she wasn’t aroused by you from the beginning.
    2,you were an alpha who became a beta.
    3,she settled for you.
    4,she knows you are/were weak and you caved a lot.
    5,she knows you were/are desperate.
    6,you did a lot of immature things her pu**y is as dry as a desert.
    7, she (as all women) is insecure about her body and she still doesn’t understands why men find women’s body irresistible. For women, sex is a tool.
    8,she is mad at you and she is using sex as a weapon.
    9,she is fantasizing about someone else.
    10,she uses kids (how honorable and yet manipulative) and busy life as an excuse to cover up her lack of sexual interest with you due to guilt
    11, it’s the early stages of planing on leaving you.

    The correct response :

    All of the above.
    Imagine if it was her who is complaining about her husband not wanting to fuck her? I bet you society, state,courts,church would cheer her to go fuck somebody else next weekend.
    That wimp, how could he.

  21. The bit about the wife actually wanting two different men is completely true to my experience. My soon to be ex is leaving me for someone she knew before she met me. Said before we married it was a choice between me him and she chose me for the marriage. I was the strong, solid guy who fathered her children; now it’s time for her fun.

    I had no chance in an equalitarian marriage. With her setting that frame in her head (I knew nothing of this before she made her move, she put on a good act until the last year or so) what chance did I have? Women with that frame are unmarrigable. Which is many Western women.

    On Mad Men Don Draper had a wife that should have been the envy of everyone. A blonde who used to be a model. From all indications she wanted him, but he barely had any time for her. Cheated at every opportunity. Barely cared about his kids either. Finally she left him after finding out he’d lied about everything, including his real name.

    That is an example of how the roles were reversed, how low the bar was at that time for a man to be considered a good husband. The wives were happy with what they can get. Now husbands are scurrying around and wives feel free to bitch about too much alpha OR too much beta. About 99 of 100 of the things men used to be able to do to their wives have been taken away. Yeah, there’s still “Marriage Game.” Good luck with that. She wants to split, Marriage Game isn’t going to stop her. The wives know the law.

    Good luck to all me in dealing with women in the current climate.

  22. I am not married.

    However, I do imagine in a world where men had much more control over marriage, and more power (than women) in the event of any separation, that the naturally existing “competition anxiety” went a long way to keep women willing to be lovers in marriage. Old societal structures meant that female divorcees and widows were much more on their own, particularly if her parents were past the age of supporting her.

    It seems, that for wives to be lovers, they must experience a medicinal measure of a fear of loss. Women only put out when they fear for their own future/safety/status. Opportunistic love is a bitch.

  23. “Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself.” ~ Rumi

    1. On Marriage
      Kahlil Gibran

      You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
      You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
      Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
      But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
      And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

      Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
      Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
      Fill each other’s cup but drink not from one cup.
      Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf
      Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
      Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

      Give your hearts, but not into each other’s keeping.
      For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
      And stand together yet not too near together:
      For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
      And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow.

  24. @Jeremy,

    Women will feel anxiety/dissatisfaction about something. Best it be a vague anxiety about losing you; otherwise it will be a vague anxiety that she could do better elsewhere. Or, if fortune smiles, just something kind of annoying like ‘do I have the right job’ or ‘what does my family think of me’ or ‘I don’t feel sexy anymore’ or some such.

    It’s like what Rollo talked about in his post on indignation. She’s going to be indignant about something; might as well be you.

  25. When I first got married, about a year into it, when my wife first got pregnant this girl I worked with straight up offered to blow me during lunch. Had I known what I know now at that very second I would have said yes.

    Back then all that did was create cognitive dissonance in my head while I tried to figure out why a woman who knows I have a wife at home is propositioning me. Blue pill life leads to massive amounts of cognitive dissonance. It can’t be good for mental health.

  26. @Derpifer

    That would be the exception, and I’m willing to bet most of them are women that married up 1-2 points, then widened the gap by gaining weight. That or the guys have something else going on (manic depression, low T due to medical condition, extreme stress) that inhibits libido. It is not the stereotype for a reason.

  27. Oh yeah for sure. My personality usually filters out stereotypes. Pre redpill I had long dry spells between dating smart quirky (often foreign) sevens and eights who just needed a little game to not be driven to rebounds with actual abusive dudes. Live and learn.

    Anyway these low libido dudes seem often mid thirties, working long and eating lots of junk food….low T is a great guess. Seen lots of it.

  28. More GOLD from rollo and the posters on here.
    This is the blog that just keeps on giving, head and shoulders above any other red pill blog I have seen, and I’ve seen many.
    The information on this site is essential reading for men and should be part of the school curriculum ( never going to happen in the FI controlled school system).
    Fellow Red pill Gladiators I salute you.

  29. “I expect that most women will disagree with me on a personal level; it’s not in women’s best interest to acknowledge that wives hate sex – perpetuating the belief that sex gets better after marriage is a necessity men need to internalize in order to commit.”

    That’s a provocative concept; wives step out of the house (GNO?) and they’re possibly no longer wives but back to being women. Makes sense, as in just a later version of Rollo’s “foam cannon” hook-up aphorism.

  30. “Women become wives due to the necessities an ever-decreasing capacity to maintain being a lover requires of them.” – and due to a faster decline in SMV ??

  31. Gunner: “.. marry a virgin so that at least she won’t have experienced anything better than you and she won’t know what’s she’s missing on the carousel.”
    Unpossible. Every single one of them is plugged into the social media Matrix from before puberty nowadays. Like a facehugger Alien. You can’t even get them to look away from their iThings to dodge the traffic.
    And the message, full-bore and 24/7, is YOLO,YuGoGuuurrrl, drop the panties for nice Mr Saville darling, and all her “friends” agree, enthusiastically.

    OK so they don’t have those things in the 3rd world. My kid bro thought he was dodging the mess by marrying some hilltribe woman. Mysteriously still single by her mid-20s, instead of being a babymama with black teeth at 14 or whatever. He hadn’t realized that the deal effectively means marrying the whole fucking tribe, in economic terms. Particularly, the passionate bond between the headman and bro’s bank account.

    Luckily the girl turned out to be sterile (hence the unmarried bit, wonder how they found that out, the weaselly little fuckers, eh?).
    IdiotBoy dodged a bullet or three there, and was not hindered in legging it back to Civilization once they’d skinned his wallet alive, which took a few years. Takes a village to waste a fortune. Not a fucking clue, the talentless inbred dossers. They genuinely seemed to think money just grew on a tree, somewhere in London (well it does, Caaarney, QuEasing, printyprinty .. but that’s by the bye).

  32. Strings : “why a woman who knows I have a wife at home is propositioning me”
    That “withdrawn from the shelves” thing seems to trigger certain women.
    It’s happened a few times, the clearest being a party with people from work, hostess jumped me and dryhumpe/crotchgrabbed as I thanked her kindly for her generous offer and disentangled myself as gently as possible.
    She knew I had a (near-term pregnant with first child) woman at home and it was work in the morning, but .. she’d split with her longterm SO recently, they’d had a house (his house) together for years and all that shit, and still she was willing to crap where she ate with a (senior) colleague.
    No hard feelings, although I was inclined to needle her about it when she tried to slack at work. With an evil grin, and a merry twinkle in me eye ..

  33. It seems, that for wives to be lovers, they must experience a medicinal measure of a fear of loss.

    I’m not quite sure what you mean by medicinal measure, but I do think some measure of fear is inherent in a woman’s arousal. It’s doesn’t necessarily have to be a fear of him leaving physically, but checking out emotionally as well. Any fear, as long as it’s not too little or too much, keeps us on our toes and, surprisingly, happy.

  34. @ Rollo

    Re: Seductive women

    Women who are 5’s in beauty tend to be aggressive and think that that’s seductive. Not. Just creepy. They don’t turn me on with their looks. Women used to use double-entendres and I haven’t seen that in a while.

  35. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and teh Patriarchy was supreme, men still needed to be told to flirt with their wives. Be playful and engaging…needed for mating in all circumstances…single…and married.

  36. Marriage is, and should be seen by women, as including a license for the man in the marriage, to enjoy her pussy as much as HE wants or needs. Period.

  37. Why is that personal growth is always preceded by pain? This is exactly what happened to me with my ex wife. But there is a truth underneath it all that I have been unwilling to admit.

    Somehow, in my blue pilled mind, I thought marriage was an escape from the burden of performance. I knew my ex was losing interest in me sexually, and no, I didn’t go to the gym and buff up. I didn’t even try to lose the bit of weight I had begun to put on. I didn’t try to be sexy for her. I felt like, “Look at what I’m doing for you – you should be grateful” – and I wanted her to be wet for me anyway. I was working my ass off in my career and climbing the ladder successfully – which took 70-80 hours a week. And I was fully engaged as a Dad and husband, but still, I was glad I didn’t have to compete for women anymore. She “owed” me.

    It showed up in how I dressed. While at work, I always had a nice suit on, but at home I was a bit of a slob. Old concert tee-shirts and beat up jeans, or maybe a polo shirt were it. I paid little attention to my appearance. To me it was irrelevant. But if that was so, why had I married such a hot woman? I mean, by my very actions I showed that physical attractiveness was important to me – why could I not get that my ex needed the same thing? And it wouldn’t have been that much for me to do. I wasn’t fat, just needed to lose 10 lbs. I wasn’t weak, but some time lifting weights would have made a big difference.

    Even worse was how I failed to exert leadership in the marriage. I let my wife run our little family around in circles instead of putting my foot down. I treated her like an equal instead of as a someone who needed guidance – which she was. I thought I made “the plan” clear to her, but in reality I didn’t. Did I make sure she was bought in? No, I just assumed she would be magnificently impressed by my efforts. And when she didn’t play along I got angry instead of smart. I escalated instead of calming and unifying. I swear, if I knew what a shit test actually was back then, my marriage might not have gone under.

    3 yrs after we had split up, my ex and I were having sex sporadically. I had gotten in good shape physically and was laying on her couch (is it really her’s if I paid for it?) with my shirt off and she kind of growled and came on to me. In this moment I knew that if I had maintained that level of sexiness my ex might have never lost interest in me sexually, and my marriage might not of have dissolved.

    Is/was any of it fair? Who knows. But do I wish I handled all this differently? You bet. Might my ex have strayed anyway? Perhaps – but I certainly could/should have done more. Sometimes it’s hard admitting this stuff to myself, but not today. I realize I was confused back then, and in my case, my Dad didn’t teach me shit about how to be a good father, husband and man. He resorted to bullying and force and coercion and demanded respect – he didn’t lead our family wisely.

    I guess this is what I’d want to say to any guy in a marriage, or contemplating marrying. You will need to maintain the frame of the relationship and be the leader of your family to even have a slim chance of having a happy family that stays intact. You will be “performing” not just for your wife, but also for your children and your extended family.

    Put more simply. In the BP world, marriage relieved me of the burden of performance – and my wife’s attraction towards me. Big fucking mistake.

    1. @glenn
      Thanks so much for the help from this
      Went to visit a childhood buddy of mine and I noticed how frame was essential.
      my Dad didn’t teach me shit about how to be a good father, husband and man. He resorted to bullying and force and coercion and demanded respect – he didn’t lead our family wisely.

      I guess this is what I’d want to say to any guy in a marriage, or contemplating marrying. You will need to maintain the frame of the relationship and be the leader of your family to even have a slim chance of having a happy family that stays intact. You will be “performing” not just for your wife, but also for your children and your extended family.

  38. That was a great one, Confuzzled wife! April fool’s back at yah!

    Here’s mine: I’m a great wife in every single way, take care of the kids, clean the house, yadda yadda. The only think I want is for my husband to have a sex change because what I really want is a girlfriend. We could share so many things…stories, gossip, play cards, swap pearl necklaces (I mean REAL ones, not…that…tee her). I really don’t see his objections…

    1. If you want sex, get a hooker.

      If you want affection and loyalty, get a dog.
      (Always knew)
      But that’s all true still no excuse in learning game.

  39. Excellent dissection by Rollo – again.

    Simple things stay simple: No marriage, ever.

    As one commenter put it, the female has to “earn the right of spending the night” – because you could potentially leave.

    Being a truly free man leads women to submissive behaviour, as it should be.

    Read another good sentence on another site today: “Why slip that get-fat-and-take-half-my-shit licence on her finger?”

    Even in a worst case secenario – child support is relativly limited (although still way too much) – sharing of everything you got via marriage is plain stupid.

  40. My ex gf started distancing, one night i said: “Do i need to start fucking other women?” She found another guy and dumped me.

    The problem was i was too overt. had I been covert and just started fucking other women she would have suddenly amped up the sex and felt more competitive because she would sense someone else wanted me or was fucking me… Lesson learned.

  41. @Glenn

    I realize I was confused back then, and in my case, my Dad didn’t teach me shit about how to be a good father, husband and man. He resorted to bullying and force and coercion and demanded respect – he didn’t lead our family wisely.

    So much this. The problem with BP dads (mine included) is that they don’t understand the difference between respect and fear. Respect goes both ways; fear only goes one.

    When a kid grows up thinking respect is fear, they’re never going to get true respect as a Man themselves.

  42. @daysofgame

    “Yes, women will test endlessly to watch you try to feed their “hungry ghosts.” But as guys, we’re too afraid of being alone, too afraid to do the work to be attractive, so we say yes (to her terms), she senses the “weakness,” and thing deteriorate from there.”

    This is being honest about the situation. I’d replace the word ‘afraid’, with ‘lazy’, but…

    You want preventive medicine.. this.

    You will perform.

    The fun part is, it get’s ever harder to do that with a two income household, kids, hormonal (possibly neurotic) wife, liberals, the FI, boredom, age, etc.. even if you do have decent attraction/sex. I can only imagine the hell of a sexless journey like that. We’re not built to succeed at everything required of us, in this new paradigm, even with sex.

    Without sex? no way, man, no way.

    The only way you can say ‘no’ to her terms consistently, is if you’ve got (maintain) the goods to back up your convictions. So, make sure you take excellent care of yourself, live for yourself, develop yourself, but don’t forget it is ultimately your job to make everyone else happy too, especially your wife on a daily basis. That promise she made… buys you nothing.

    They should add “ceteris paribus” to the end of every standard wedding vow uttered by a woman.

    To love and to honor.. ceteris paribus
    Till death do us part.. ceteris paribus

  43. @walawala

    This is central to game – and in particular to how good game requires a holistically masculine life and outlook. When I was first learning a bit of game my impulse was to be overt, as you were; I’d try a bit of dread/abundance mentality by trying to insert stories about other girls into my conversations with the gf and so on. It didn’t help at all, the whole thing rang false.

    A few happy accidents started to show me that the only way to do this properly is to live it. As an example, shortly after I broke things off with the gf, she walked into my office while I was reading a website on my smartphone. I usually try to keep blog reading off the clock, so I looked up guiltily and shoved the phone in my pocket, then asked what she needed and resolved it.

    Then she stood there, staring balefully at me. I got up to see her out the door; as I passed her on the way she stood stock still, facing me down, so as I got near to her I turned to her and she grabbed me, stared directly into my eyes, and started grinding against me. She wouldn’t let me go.

    She was ordinarily quite timid about pda’s. Needless to say I was a bit confused. Until, a bit later, she asked me who I was texting on my phone.


    Break up with a girl + act aloof + surreptitiously use your phone = ‘who’s the other girl?’

    That’s covert communication. Miscommunication, in this case, but I never got any such response from trying to fake it. A man who has options does his best to keep it under wraps around other women, he doesn’t trumpet it from the rooftops. It’s only displayed unintentionally, as an accident or fluke.

    This is why the only option, in the long run, is to stop running from improving yourself and actually improve yourself. Stop pretending you’re okay with mediocre sex and become the sort of man who has great sex. You can only succeed or fail, you can’t check out of the game.

  44. There is a great difference psychologically between doing something for obligation,and doing it because you really want to.

    Its true of many things, and sex is no exception. I run twice a week and have fun doing it.When I was in the military and HAD to do it, running 2 miles sucked. Context matters, and with women its 80% of their motivation to do anything.

    Women in the Beta Bucks phase dont even consider sex with the man as part of the bargain-if he’s good at it, she’s still cutting him off because she’s not primally attracted to him in the first place-just his stuff or status.Once she’s secured that benefit, time to pull the plug on sex.

    Ill note that sex in a relationship may be the same mechanical act as primal ,lustful boning-but thats all they have in common. Obligation sex may as well be a totally different sport from the animalistic “get sweaty and break the furniture” type boning when truly attracted people hook up.There’s a vast difference, and women know it. Most men dont.

    1. Thanks for that post
      Reminds me a post secret I read today
      “It took my husband 2 years to convince me to join “lifestyle” …and 2 mouths for me to fall in love with his best friend.”

  45. “I’ve always been tempted to try and get an old wedding ring from a pawn shop just to see if the game is that different.”

    Absolutely. I knew a guy some years ago who worked in sales&marketing at a computer company, so he was on the road *a* *lot*. Single guy, decent but not great success with women. Once (for reasons I forget), he picked up a random men’s wedding ring at a pawn shop, and when he was on the road, and going out to hit the bars/clubs, he would pull out the ring and put it on. He told me he had to beat them off with a club. One woman (who was married!) told him frankly (after he asked her) that it was because she wanted sex, nothing more, and that ‘a single guy might want some kind of commitment’. Sigh…

  46. I suspect I must enjoy an odd existence, but for what it’s worth: Mrs. St. James and I had sex maybe 1-2 times a week early in our marriage. Without thinking about it, I explained one random evening that I was going to have some great sex, and I would really like it to be with her.

    Not that such a statement was a watershed moment, but in my memory Things Changed for some reason.

    Believe me, I get the point of this post and Rollo has been awesome sauce when it comes to improving my own marriage. (I wanted to say the same about Athol, but that motherfucker has changed for WAY worse the last couple of years. I suspect it’s the money, and I don’t blame him for it. I’m sure I’d do the same.)

    In my case, I didn’t bother with the beta bux girls. I don’t know how I knew, but I knew. I think I called it being “bored” by whoever it was. Now the correct term might be “being settled for.”

    I know, I know, “you think you got a unicorn, bro?” but no, I just didn’t get a mule.

  47. Just Saying

    March 31st, 2015 at 8:02 pm

    “That is why marriages are always doomed – the woman no longer has to compete for the man, and if she isn’t competing for you, she will be competing for another man.”

    Not in a situation where divorce is easy and low risk for a man and/or polygamy (having several wives) is allowed i.e. Islamic/Sharia law.

  48. Given comments I hear from men outside the ‘sphere I think men are due to get the own epiphany phase. That being being the realization the most parasitic, most malignant, and least rewarding women are those in the “epiphany phase.” Until the roles of husband and wife are redefined as something positive for both sexes to be and to be with the nuclear family will continue to die.

  49. Thank you Rollo for another enlightening post.
    This being my first post here (or at any ‘manosphere’ blog) let me take a moment to sincerely thank you for taking the time to make these incredibly enlightening and well constructed posts. Your writing-skill and that of your commenter’s are top of class. At 43, married with 3 kids, I’m a little late to the ‘manosphere’ party but I’m a quick learner. I’m proof that it is never too late to learn and implement.
    When I discovered your blog, I must be honest, it was like being sucker punched in the face. Since then, reading your blog and others, it’s been a series of body blows and I’m just now recovering. At first I was pissed! How come no one ever told me this shit? NO ONE! The moment I read these great posts, the light bulb went off and I knew in my heart that I had found gold. I’ve been binging on information like a mad scientist ever since and learning how to use my new found knowledge. I’m a keener and have begun using all of this knowledge to regain control and make things better for me (for both our sakes). I won’t get into the details now but I could be a case study of how this stuff can work when applies systematically
    The only experience in my life that compares to what I’m currently experiencing with this red pill awareness is the journey I went on when I was 16 and began searching for truths about religion and god. Without getting specific, what I discovered about religion depressed the shit out of me. I was awakened but depressed about it but I plowed forward for many years until I was ‘over it’. A period of enlightenment followed partnered with a sense of freedom knowing the truth. (Even if it was just my own truths). Those feelings were almost identical to the feelings I’ve had over the past year becoming red pill aware – Shock, Resistance, Awakening, Sadness, and now, Enlightenment (ongoing).
    I will continue to be a regular reader and hopefully contribute personal anecdotes of both wins and losses when I can share with the brotherhood
    Keep up the damn great work.
    Zak Zanloft

  50. @Rollo Tomassi


    The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men

    holy shit.

    I’m feeling like saving a copy of that paper to my smartphone and keeping it with me. For two reasons… 1) To pull out for women when they attempt to cheerlead for female empathy. 2) To remind myself that science has proven women are cold.

  51. But then again, apparently Bradley Cooper can’t keep a 23 yr old hottie in line, so what are my chances? From today’s NYPost:http://pagesix.com/2015/03/31/bradley-cooper-dumped-suki-because-she-wasnt-supportive-of-his-career/

    Bradley Cooper split from 23-year-old British beauty Suki Waterhouse because “she wasn’t supportive of his acting career” and “spent Valentine’s Day away” from the “American Hustle,” star, says a source.
    We’re told Cooper felt Waterhouse was not supportive after his huge success in Broadway’s “Elephant Man,” which started in previews on Nov. 7 and ran till Feb. 21.
    Instead of spending Valentine’s Day in New York with Cooper, the model jetted with friends to a billionaire’s estate in Austin, Texas, according to our insider.
    Waterhouse’s Instagram posts from there show her with several girlfriends doing yoga, goofing around on a boat, and posing with heart-shaped balloons.
    In one photo, she’s wearing a Philadelphia Eagles shirt, a favorite team of Cooper’s and one that figured heavily in the plotline of his movie “Silver Linings Playbook.”

  52. “and 2 mouths for me to fall in love with his best friend.”

    wonderful freudian slip 🙂

  53. @Glenn

    “But then again, apparently Bradley Cooper can’t keep a 23 yr old hottie in line, so what are my chances?”

    If I’m being honest, probably better than his. Hollywood male stars are largely paper alphas drowning in social proof. It makes the getting easy but the keeping hard. I guarantee that given an opportunity with the same chick, any guy that has sufficiently internalized red pill game has a better chance of retention than your average Hollywood blue pull chump.

    1. “One could understand feminism generally as an attack on woman as she was under “patriarchy” (that concept is a social construction of feminism). The feminine mystique was her ideal; in regard to sex, it consisted of women’s modesty and in the double standard of sexual conduct that comes with it, which treated women’s misbehavior as more serious than men’s. Instead of trying to establish a single standard by bringing men up to the higher standard of women, as with earlier feminism, today’s feminism decided to demand that women be entitled to sink to the level of men. It bought into the sexual revolution of the late sixties and required that women be rewarded with the privileges of male conquest rather than, say, continue serving as camp followers of rock bands. The result has been the turn for the worse. … What was there in feminine modesty that the feminists left behind?

      In return for women’s holding to a higher standard of sexual behavior, feminine modesty gave them protection while they considered whether they wanted to consent. It gave them time: Not so fast! Not the first date! I’m not ready for that! It gave them the pleasure of being courted along with the advantage of looking before you leap. To win over a woman, men had to strive to express their finer feelings, if they had any. Women could judge their character and choose accordingly. In sum, women had the right of choice, if I may borrow that slogan. All this and more was social construction, to be sure, but on the basis of the bent toward modesty that was held to be in the nature of women. That inclination, it was thought, cooperated with the aggressive drive in the nature of men that could be beneficially constructed into the male duty to take the initiative. There was no guarantee of perfection in this arrangement, but at least each sex would have a legitimate expectation of possible success in seeking marital happiness. They could live together, have children, and take care of them.

      Without feminine modesty, however, women must imitate men, and in matters of sex, the most predatory men, as we have seen. The consequence is the hook-up culture now prevalent on college campuses, and off-campus too (even more, it is said). The purpose of hooking up is to replace the human complexity of courtship with “good sex,” a kind of animal simplicity, eliminating all the preliminaries to sex as well as the aftermath. “Good sex,” by the way, is in good part a social construction of the alliance between feminists and male predators that we see today. It narrows and distorts the human potentiality for something nobler and more satisfying than the bare minimum.

      The hook-up culture denounced by conservatives is the very same rape culture denounced by feminists. Who wants it? Most college women do not; they ignore hookups and lament the loss of dating. Many men will not turn down the offer of an available woman, but what they really want is a girlfriend. The predatory males are a small minority among men who are the main beneficiaries of the feminist norm. It’s not the fault of men that women want to join them in excess rather than calm them down, for men too are victims of the rape culture. Nor is it the fault of women. Women are so far from wanting hook-ups that they must drink themselves into drunken consent — in order to overcome their natural modesty, one might suggest. Not having a sociable drink but getting blind drunk is today’s preliminary to sex. Beautifully romantic, isn’t it?”
      “He was a man with a chest, and he wanted to give thoughtful expression to the passion of his heart.”
      ― Harvey Mansfield

  54. An interesting piece, but the one thing that leaps out at me from is the language of the feminine imperative shaming the sexuality of men.

  55. The linked article is interesting for two reasons:

    First, it is another example of a woman “marrying” her children and her job. It’s totally common now; when she’s at work, her job is #1; when she’s at home, the children are #1, and whatshisname? Oh, someday she’ll get back to him.

    Second, I’m rather surprised to see the comments in the article, most of the female comments were negative. Thread winner was the woman who wanted to give “John” a BJ.

  56. Great find, T. Wow.

    Of course, the song was written by males. Blue Pill fantasy or Red Pill anthem?

  57. @rollo I have some thoughts regarding red pill and some of your writings.

    Your writings are geared towards low SMV guys and guys who don’t have much passion authenticity etc. IF YOU HAVE THIS (relatively high smv) then all of this really doesn’t mean much and is counterproductive. if a girl thinks of you as high SMV and she is hot everyone will win in the marriage. As long as you know red pill (aka don’t slide I to overly too beta, which most people know if theyy e been dumped for it before) then you shouldn’t be obsessed and analyzing it all.

    It’s really that simple. Find something that’s high status and do it and make it a passion……….

    If you do all of this (yeah it’l takes work) then all of this “don’t be yourself and keep her in her toes etc” will actually work against you.

    Just a word out there for some is be careful when taking advice from manosphere b/c it can be extreme and can lead to counterproductiveness esp if you are high value

  58. @Will

    A high value Blue Pill can be taken to the cleaners. All of this advice applies whether you’re high or low value. The difference between high and low values is that a lot of the high value guys will have a lot of these behaviors naturally. The advice isn’t “bad” so much as it’s redundant.

    Every guy of any value should at the very least have complete Red Pill awareness.

  59. On a side note: why the fuck does anybody worth over 8 figures ever get married? I really can’t figure this shit out.

    Girlfriend: I’m going to leave you if you don’t marry me.

    Me (as a billionaire): Hold on, let me pull out my phone and call your replacement. It’s so hard to choose. There’s like a few thousand of them in here seeing as I’m a fucking billionaire and all…

    I mean seriously what the hell?

  60. @Sun Wukong

    On a side note: why the fuck does anybody worth over 8 figures ever get married? I really can’t figure this shit out.

    I can’t either. The comment of the day at lunch was, “Marriage is a roach motel, betas check in but they can’t check out.”

  61. @rollo I follow your writing.

    All I’m saying is that if a girl sees you as high value and you are sexually attracted to her and red pill aware….and then get married…..(probably to raise kids with a girl who sees you as high value and whom you want to fuck)…everyone wins.

    If you start doing “dread game” she will possibly freak out and be weirded and confused as to why you are being retarded. If your marriage and relationship is already doing well (I.e. You are a high value authentic passionate guy) then you shouldn’t have to do this.

    Sure maybe dabble with it a little if your wife is telling you to not have sex with her. But if she’s doing that then you probably a) aren’t the authentic passionate high value guy she wants you to be or b) the girl isn’t the right one for you and get the one whom you can healthily express your authentic and passionate self with.

    If you are screaming and itching for more sex in your relationship then your married the wrong girl

  62. And @sun kuwong

    That guy isn’t nexessarily “high value” in a girls mind. That example is irrelevant to my point. When you have that much money you have a target on your back. You get a prenup.

    Leveraging your money to get girls is beta and not high value at all

    1. Hey will check this out you get both alpha and Beta in the same since but at different times. Smv plays a role because yes it’s James bond.

      However it’s the best expression on the burden of performance in any bond film ever made because the girl is aware of that burden on the beginning and close to the end. She now sees bond and knows he gets it. He holds her to remind her that it’s a part he must play she is forced to admit that he performed but perhaps not the way she expected he has money that isn’t his including all his toys and cars. Bond never has any personal time expressed in any of his films. People with weath may be able to go to a mate but Bond never has to intend on commiting because of his inherent smv with his surroundings and dealings.

  63. @Jeremy

    Hahah, nice.


    That guy isn’t nexessarily “high value” in a girls mind.
    Don’t insult my intelligence by thinking I consider “high value” that narrowly. And yes, to many girls he would be.

    That example is irrelevant to my point.
    No, it’s not. To become a billionaire, you are almost 100% guaranteed to score high in Dark Triad traits. You are highly likely to exhibit leadership qualities. It’s impossible to get there without that. You clearly lack an understanding of what’s necessary to become a billionaire. Yet still he was Blue Pill enough to get divorce raped.

    It is absolutely relevant.

    When you have that much money you have a target on your back. You get a prenup.
    Unless you’re a Blue Pill. Which he obviously was.

    Leveraging your money to get girls is beta and not high value at all
    To become a billionaire (as noted above) requires numerous Alpha traits. This is not bullshit. It is in a totally different league from a guy that’s a millionaire or even a hundred millionaire. You can still be Blue Pill and be a billionaire though. You are by all accounts high quality, yet can be dangerously Blue Pill.

    It is entirely relevant to what you’re saying. You’re just not able to see it yet.

  64. @rugby you’re kind of getting at what I’m saying. Yeah.

    But James bond is an extreme example again.

    All I’m saying is if you have to beg beg beg a wife you are married to to have sex with you or she denies you it a lot then you married the wrong girl.

    Marriage is best used for building a family. So you have to realize that sex will require game, yes, but your wife probably won’t be some sex slave. If you want more sex with different girls and don’t want a family then don’t get married obviously.

    It can be very fulfilling having kids and watching them grow through life. Make sure you do it with a girl who you don’t get stressed out with about sex life.

    picking your life partner as a man:
    Don’t necessarily pick the sweetest and best looking candy in the candy store.
    Pick your life partner like you would pick an important person to work for your own business.

  65. @sun wukong

    No they aren’t relevant. I am referring to red pill aware men.

    I actually think that It is highlllllllllly likely, if you are blue pill, you will slide into overly beta behavior with a beautiful girl and get burned.

    Had that “billionaire” been red pill aware none of that would’ve happened.

    My point is regarding marriage and the fact that a good amount of the manospheres advice can be counterproductive with your main girl if you have already established red pill awareness and high SMV

  66. There’s a difference between @rollos “thirsty beta male” and “guy who is passionate, authentic and knows what he wants from his girl while being red pill aware”

    Girls want to be the special little snowflake. BUT with a passionate authentic alpha high SMV

  67. @ Sun Wukong

    I think Will is saying guys that “just get it” should avoid the ‘sphere’s advice. Which if they “get it” they already know, but that’s beside the point. I am, however, eager to see how he next moves the goal posts.

  68. In all my experiences I have encountered very few husbands who had the full desire of their wives. Most of those more Alpha men (with 1 or 2 exceptions who were faithful) were men who had affairs and ran Game constantly. They excited the passion of other women and often their wives demanded more sex than they did themselves. Alpha men are uncontrollable indeed, but I guess that is what makes them so exciting to many.

    Personally I would not want a stifled legally enforced marriage contract of times past. Of course a reversal of the laws to 1890s level would help, but I would prefer if all men were taught Game and women were encouraged to marry early, keep their notch count to a minimum. If society celebrated and supported healthy strong masculinity, then more men would be able to create delicious tingles.

    We humans and men especially can learn such basic things. Think about modern sexuality and the ease with which most men can nowadays create the female orgasm and compare it to 100 years ago, when it was mostly a mystery or seen as completely unimportant. If men can learn to generate female orgasms, then they can learn to generate female tingles if they are given the chance, the framework and the proper knowledge.

  69. My, my, heh heh, out of the blue @Will has lots of hubris.

    I don’t recall any of Will’s comments on previous posts, but I have to surmise that he didn’t read the original post. Or didn’t understand it. I would also surmise by his comments that he is younger than 27. And he hasn’t had a LTR.

    (Not meant to be mean Will. This forum is about preventative medicine.)

    Take it from some old guys with LTR’s. If you’ve made it to 27 years old, congratulations you just finished the easiest time of your life.

    “With the exception of only the most adept, affluent and exceptional of men, this expectation is a sisyphean recipe for failure. No matter which aspect he excels in the other aspect potentially becomes his personal flaw. Although his personal strengths may compensate, feminine-primary social expectations place him in a no-win position.”

    See some hurdles are higher in life. Some really high. Death of a child. Loss of a good job with difficult prospects for another. Personal severe medical illness. Cancer in a spouse. Lot of things. On top of that there are psychic taxes to be paid like bad behaving in-laws, work responsibilities you are not compensated for but are necessary, stupid laws stupid neighbors, physical injuries while pursuing adventurous activities.

    And the article was about marriage. My bias is for marriage. But it was much easier to lock down a SMV8 @ her 25 year old age twenty five years ago (1990) than it is in todays age of smartphones, facebook and feminism brainwashing in school.

    I find that Rollo’s constant reminders to always be performing in the face of continual psychic “taxes” are encouraging. After all I got this far doing well. Why not continue?

  70. I can’t say I’ve ever had ‘obligation sex.’ Even on the night my ex- divorce ambushed me, she wanted to have sex. Then she kept a nude photo of me on her dresser post-divorce. (Also, the sexual tension remained too high post-divorce for us to navigate the “let’s just be friends for the sake of the children” thing.) So, ironically, I was married to someone who in the end preferred me as a lover, over me as a husband.

    Thus the many qualities Dragonflygirl describes as components of seduction slowly evaporated, and had I not been so blue pill I would not have written that fact off as just part of the normal cycle of life. I wouldn’t have been in complete denial and oblivious to what, in retrospect, was a multi-year program of alienation and rejection and replacement. So instead of suffering through ‘obligation sex’ in steadily decreasing quantity, we were practicing ‘obligation marriage’, but only one of us knew that. That proved to be more dangerous to the family.

    These qualities of seduction, as defined by the dragonfly, to me are just qualities of attention, recognition, respect and kindness. It wasn’t until I found the redpill that I recognized how rare they are. And I don’t stay in relationships where they are not present, or are steadily diminishing — which, I should say, is the norm.

    And oh, I’d say the dichotomy exists in the ex-‘s second marriage. The guy has the energy level, and masculinity, of a near-invalid. They’ve got three great homes, though.

  71. I do not mean to hijack, but I’m looking for some of your opinions including Rollo’s.
    Found you guys googling this morning.

    I’m 28, asian, nerdish. Fiance is 24 white. We have been engaged four months.

    She bullshits about guys in her past. Caught her on Facebook keeping in touch with her exes even if she claimed she doesn’t. It seems as soon as they message she responds and likes to chat. My sister told me it is normal. They are just friends now.I only saw this because she left FB on while in bed.

    She also made up stories about a few guys we know that she said were just her ” friends” at her job. Turns out they are all guys she has been with. Drunk girl at her office party told.me.
    Now they are friends etc.. I guess this is normal. I’m confused.
    Just checking. My sister told me not to ask here because you are all women haters. I am anyway.

    1. @midwestboi – Marriage is a serious investment. If you are uncertain, then do proper due diligence. Install a key-logger and find out what she does online on FB and dating sites.
      Even if it’s major flirting, that she does for ego-stroke, then I would drop her like a hot potato. A fiancee on the verge of the wedding should be all butterflies and roses towards her man. If even then she is not, then you might just as well put the cuckold-stamp on your forehead and lubricate your butt for the divorce-rape.

  72. @midwestboi,

    “Don’t ask them, they’re misogynists” is a laughably transparent ploy on her part to control the dialogue and the information you receive. It’s a cliche in these parts now to observe how people will resort to shaming and drama when you approach uncomfortable truths.

    So why do you think your girl is being less than upfront with you about all these other guys? There are red flags all over the place here.

    A few key points:
    – This girl isn’t devoting her attention to a monogamous commitment. She’s playing a game where she had her fun with a bunch of men when she was younger, and is now feeling some pressure to settle down before her prospects decline.
    – She figures she might as well give the appearance of settling down because of the social status and comfort/financial stability it may offer. But she doesn’t want to give anything up in order to do so; who would, really? Fortunately, facebook accounts and cellphones means she doesn’t have to! She can still get lots of attention and validation from lots of guys at the same time, and you need never know! (Unless she’s careless and doesn’t log out.) So in addition to having your commitment, she has the ear and sympathy of any beta orbiters she’s accumulated, and hey, if things with you get a little too dull, she’s got 6-12 dicks still on the hook, ready and willing to ‘reignite’ things whenever she pleases.
    – This doesn’t mean necessarily that she’s cheating, or thinking of cheating, or anything like that. This isn’t really a conscious strategy. That’s why your broaching the topic would be met with such indignation; she can convince herself, and expects you to agree, that her behavior is ‘normal’ (it is, nowadays, in the sense that it’s common) and not harmful.
    – Basically, technology and contemporary mores make it so that she can try to ‘have it all’ – she can get commitment, without giving up any of her options whatsoever. Monogamy and marriage no longer ‘take’ like they once did; if she gets bored of it or changes her mind, she knows she can just dump it and go back to hot, exciting sex and short-term relationships with random men. So she keeps the backup plans running.
    – I suspect you’re looking for a relationship where you can count on each other to stick with it when the going gets tough, where you can rely on each other for support and devotion, where both of you are in it for the long haul. That’s not this relationship. She’s giving commitment a whirl, just to see if it suits her fancy. If it doesn’t she’s out.
    – This is normal nowadays. That’s what we mean by the supremacy of the Feminine Imperative. It’s not a conspiracy or plan or any bullshit like that; it’s just that the female sexual strategy, which always wants options, is supported in numerous ways most people aren’t even aware of. All sorts of systems and social conventions exist now to support her getting what she wants out of a relationship, and to shame and punish you if you try to protest or get what you want (loyalty, respect, decent sex, and persistence in holding the relationship together).

    I’d stick around if I were you.

  73. Err. That is, I’d stick around on this site. I’m not going to tell you what to do, but I’d certainly not encourage you to ‘stick around’ in a relationship that doesn’t give you what you want and need.

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