Evolving Hypergamy

propose-woman

Novaseeker had an excellent breakdown of how Hypergamy has developed and is radically altering a long established social order in favor of one centered on the female sexual strategy. This was timely for a post I was working on, so rather than allow it to be buried in the last thread I thought I’d riff on it a bit here:

So in my head, I tried to think of what the best response to hidden estrus would be from a male perspective, and the only thing I could think of was essentially hiding male horniness, I used the word stoicism. The only way to balance the effects of hidden estrus is for all men to simply appear to not want what a women are offering, to appear uninvested, uninterested, etc.., because this again gives the perception of a lack of abundance to the women and re-balances things. Eventually such behavior would become selected for to some degree, and male emotions would become less prominent.

I agree with what you are saying, although I think it’s important to bear in mind that the expression of female sexuality historically was quite restricted, once we were at a level of more complex social organization beyond the rather small. Things did vary by community and culture somewhat, but once things reached that level of social advance, in most places a woman’s family/kin had a huge control over the expression of her sexuality, with the parents (largely the father) and to a lesser extent her male brothers exerting substantial restrictive pressure on the expression of her sexuality.

I should note here that while there is a definite social structure built around various strategies of mate guarding, these social mores and familial repression of women’s Hypergamous impulses does, in fact, stem from evolved, behavioral adaptations.

Kin Affiliation Across the Ovulatory Cycle : Females Avoid Fathers When Fertile Consider that girls will make subconscious efforts to avoid their fathers during the proliferative phase of their ovulatory cycle. Also, consider girls enter puberty at an earlier age when their fathers are not present in the family. Both of these are examples of phenomena that have a physical manifestation and a latent evolutionary purpose, but socially we build moral/social frameworks around buffering for (or sometimes accommodating) them.

Likewise, there are social controls that span all cultures that have the same purpose of buffering against the predations and mechanics of women’s Hypergamous natures. The most stringent of these might be repressing of women’s sexuality, but the latent purpose is still the same; controlling for paternity assurances.

There was, of course, cheating of the system that took place in terms of women bucking the system covertly, but most women were not sexual free agents in most places most of the time historically, and so were not acting on their estrus, concealed or otherwise at these later points in history. It does seem like something which likely occurred prior to the time we developed significant social organization (which is unclear when it precisely happened, but likely happened gradually quite some time before the development of large-scale agriculture), and is inherited from that earlier time, while the later social structures mostly, or at least in many cases, served to rather severely hem in the expression of female sexuality and free sexual choice to a large degree.

The Feminine Imperative that exists today still uses these historically extreme controls as a baseline for provoking an emotional response among women (and feminized men) today. In spite of the realities of Open Hypergamy and Open Cuckoldry, and paired with the fact that we live in the most sexually permissive society the world has largely known to this point, there is still a necessity to sell a narrative of sexual repression in order to perpetuate a social condition of ‘victimization’ among women and thus perpetuate a status of concern and primary importance.

So I guess my perspective is not that what you are suggesting is incorrect, in terms of the deeper evolutionary inheritance, but that the response of men to this eventually evolved, socially, into the use of social/legal/moral structures that acted as a counterweight to the inter-sexual issues raised by concealed estrus, and that, being social animals, this was itself also a powerfully selected thing (tribes that did not adopt similar restrictive measures did not generally survive except in relatively isolated areas where they were not exposed to the same degree of competition with patriarchal tribes and their sexually restrictive cultures). I suspect it dawned on the males in some tribal groups that the gains to be had from a kind of system of “one girl for (almost) every guy (who isn’t killed in war, or banished or enslaved)” when it came to women, in terms of reducing sex-related conflict among men, became more important when the scale/size of social organization grew beyond the small and moved to a larger, more complex scale, where different structures were needed to ensure cooperation and alleviate conflict which could undermine that cooperation and the scale made possible by it. So in other words, the strategy that men adopted had to do with the needs of the social order and the need for greater cooperation and less conflict once the scale grew to the point where close kinship among the males could no longer feasibly serve as a conflict-reducer effectively.

This was done, of course, at the direct expense of the female sexual strategy, and females have been scratching and clawing against that result in various ways ever since that time, but really have only recently had the success of overturning pretty much all aspects of that restrictive system (while retaining selective elements of it in form, mostly, as it serves their own interests) with the collaboration of most men, by the way, in the process (for various reasons, many of which Rollo has detailed in various posts on this blog). The resulting system is therefore new, and requires men to adapt, which is what we are about doing here, of course. The idea is to have a system which is of a large scale and complexity, socially, and which requires high levels of cooperation in order to function, while at the same time removing the last vestiges of of the “one girl for (almost) every guy” sexual system and replacing it with the freest, most open and adversarial system of sexual competition among males that our species has likely seen since long before the time we evolved into socially-based human groups.

I’ve covered most of the male adaptiveness that Nova mentions here in the Adaptation series of posts. For the short version, however, it’s important to note that even the sexual restrictiveness of women in prior eras were themselves adaptations meant to buffer against women’s conflicting sexual strategy. As I stated in the Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies, for one sex’s strategy to succeed the other must either be compromised or abandoned. Prior sexual restrictiveness was a repression meant to force women to abandon and later (in monogamy) compromise their own Hypergamy (Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks).

It remains to be seen how feasible this is, longer term, because it is still so new. And the adaptation required by men is substantial, because the change is gargantuan from anything we have experienced in thousands upon thousands of years, in terms of sexual system and related mores. I think relatively few will adapt, and the majority of men will fail at the system, in terms of actually getting what they want. I don’t mean most guys will be incel all their lives, but that their relationships with women will be extremely skewed to the women’s terms, through a combination of outright duping, indoctrination into wishful thinking, and a steady move towards ever more libertine sexual morality for women as a part of the further expression of the Feminine Imperative.

And that comes back to the concealed estrus issue, because the social solution that men in certain groups came up with a long, long time ago (substantial restrictions on female sexual expression) is now pretty much completely removed in this culture, meaning that it is playing a bigger role in human inter-sexual relations than it has been permitted to play in a long time. In fact, the development of reproductive technologies and the related legal regime supporting their free use has augmented the ability of women to utilize this aspect of themselves to tilt the field in their favor, well beyond what nature provided them, in terms of controlling who among the men gets to breed. Again, most men will not be able to adapt quickly enough and will be in lopsided relationships as a result. Other men, like us, are able to adapt and thrive under the new system as individuals, knowing full well we can’t really overthrow something like the sea change in sexual system that we have seen occur, even if we thought that was wise, which it may very well not be. Every man, once he comes to this realization, therefore has a choice to make, really, and a fairly stark one. Most guys have no chance, however, because they are totally subsumed by the feminine primary and never come to a realization of things as they are, and just what the heck happened in the culture, sexually, over the last 100 years or so.

Although my last post may have been on the melodramatic side, the exaggeration is still founded on the same dynamic Nova is getting at here. Since the time of the sexual revolution there has been a complete social abdication on the part of men to have any say in exercising, much less advocating for, prioritizing their own interests in the sexual strategies equation.

It’s gotten to the point that even men’s initiating an approach at the most marginal form of intimacy runs the risk of not just rejection, but legal and social punishments for even taking it upon himself. The onus of sexual selection, as per every legal mandate, is unilaterally placed upon the part of women. The latent purpose of this is to prioritize women’s sexuality and women’s sexual strategy (Hypergamy) above men’s – all while clinging to the pretense of the sexual repressions that they believe still characterize the condition of women.

If you ever wonder at the declining marriage rates, the delaying of marriage until well past women’s prime fertility years, male suicide rates being four times that of women or the rise of men who’ve contented themselves in being single for their lives look no further than this reprioritization of women’s Hypergamy as the socially predominant sexual strategy.

[…]

I would say that attempts at overt male control of covert female sexuality oftentimes amount to window dressing that only serve to help convince the men of their paternity, even when they’ve no reason to be assured of it. Only in cultures like those established by strict Islamic doctrine/Sharia Law can paternity be (mostly) assured by social forces. Outside of that, women can oftentimes have free reign at getting away with good old-fashioned cuckoldry.

 

In a social order founded on Hypergamy, that dynamic demands that men’s utterly abdicate their sexual and biological imperatives to women. This means any paternity assurances, or even the idea that they should matter to a man, must be surrendered to the point that they are literally conditioned and bred out of the consciousnesses of men.


 

I’m hitting upon this in the hopes of prompting some discussion about the aspects of Hypergamy Novaseeker mentions here, but also because I will be discussing much of this with Alan Roger Currie this coming Thursday night on his podcast.

We’ll be talking at 10pm EST/7pm PST and this will be a live call-in format, so if you’d like to participate I’d encourage you to do so. While my appearance is not necessarily an endorsement of Mode One or anything else Currie is selling, I respect him as a thoughtful interviewer and he’s been asking me to appear for some time now.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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donalgraeme
Guest

Good comment by Novaseeker and good expansion on your part Rollo.

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

Wow, a brilliant post and a deeper explication of hidden estrus and hypergamy which extends the already great discussion from the previous thread. There is only one choice for a man in this terrain. Adapt and play back at what’s going on intelligently, on every level. It requires a diligence and being uncomfortable that i didn’t expect to have to engage in at my age but so what? What else was I going to do with my life anyway? In a very real way though, I have not been mentally prepared to do so. Somehow or another, at a very… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

“In a social order founded on Hypergamy, that dynamic demands that men utterly abdicate their sexual and biological imperatives to women.” Biology demands the opposite. If 80% of women and 20% of men are getting their genes into the next generation, the selection pressure is much stronger on the male side, male-specific traits will evolve faster than female-specific traits, and genes expressed in both sexes will evolve in ways that make males more likely to reproduce. This is why a successful civilization is one where monogamous men are firmly in charge; woman retain too many instincts better suited to monkeys.… Read more »

Rafael
Guest
Rafael

The intention of having women firmly in charge and control of all sexual interactions is the main reason behind feminism hence attempts to criminalize and humiliate men who approach women unsuccessfully. But this is another example of women demanding something yet not thinking of the consequences, the end game could be no man approaching women at all which Western women would hate, Western women love attention and love men who take the lead yet they are making laws and a social enviroment that doesn’t this to happen. Of course uf this happens men will get the blame dor not having… Read more »

Misanthropist
Guest
Misanthropist

@Rafael, That is largely the point. If you turn pursuing women into such a high-risk minefield, many men will be scared away altogether. But the type of men who are more likely to be scared away are those that women are less attracted to anyway, i.e. betas and more sensitive types. The kind of men who will still aggressively pursue women in this type of Stalinist environment are more likely to be the kinds of men that women are actually more attracted to, i.e. the cads, dark personality types, risk takers, those with the resources to navigate the minefield, and… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

Rollo has covered a lot of this, but indeed how can we evolve? There is learning Game and increasing our Value and there is opting out to the extent that it is possible (there are still females around pretty much everywhere, at work etc. even if you try to stay away from the “market place”). Some technology could make opting out marginally better, but the FI of course opposes that kind of stuff because Betas are still very much useful after the epiphany phase. On the other hand, learning Game is not just hard work, but increasingly risky. Those that… Read more »

hoellenhund2
Guest

I think it’s important to bear in mind that the expression of female sexuality historically was quite restricted, once we were at a level of more complex social organization beyond the rather small. It’d probably be useful to unpack the truth in its entirety. These expressions were restricted mostly by other women, mainly older ones, or self-restricted due to shaming or self-interest. Expression of male sexuality was also restricted to the same degree, mostly by other men, mainly older ones, or self-restricted. This was all done for the practical reason that, in those economic circumstances, there was no other way… Read more »

hoellenhund2
Guest

If you turn pursuing women into such a high-risk minefield, many men will be scared away altogether.

That’s just one aspect of it. Western societies have been at a point for years where women are increasing their demands in the mating market while at the same time their average value and quality as potential partners is dropping due to the obesity epidemic, the single motherhood epidemic, the alpha widowhood epidemic and feminist indoctrination. It’s not so much fear as simple cost-benefit calculation.

hoellenhund2
Guest

Since this post quotes Novaseeker’s comments, for good reason, I’ll do the same here, without trying to be off-topic: It’s because the underlying exchange of resources for sex, from the female point of view, occurs in these relationships, too, even though they are not hard monogamy, but serial monogamy. Women feel “stiffed” when they are not getting resources in exchange for sex, even if they don’t articulate it in those terms. Therefore to the extent that men retreat from marriage, other forms of relationships between men and women that involve sex will also begin to involve state mandated resource transfers.… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

@Hoellenhund2: I think it is more accurate to say that the state/government is annoyed by male disengagement, not because it frustrates women’s priorities, but because it frustrates the priorities of the state/government. Which sometimes are aligned with women’s priorities for whatever reason (wanting their votes, wanting more children, wanting transfer of wealth from males to females for the sake of the economy or whatever). This reminds me of the discussion a while back about adverts (or movies) from corporations that were in line with the FI / overt hypergamy etc. It is not necessarily the corporations being subjugated by the… Read more »

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

I think YaReally’s post (you can find it by clicking on YaReally under Tomassi’s blogroll and read the June 17, 2013 post entry under the heading Theory – “Introverts” hide behind the label to avoid their own comfort zones. Towards the end of that post YaReally breaks down his strategy with women. This new evolving hypergamy has females gravitating more towards what may be a more opitmal sexual strategy for them going forward. The new strategy would serve to augment more and more the old strategy (serial monogomy with orbiters in the bullpen) to involve having a secret relationship all… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

@Colbert: it is somewhere close to this link
http://www.yareallyarchive.com/2013/6/#comment-heartiste-449609

qsajaq
Guest

As a young man, I always judged my father for visiting service providers. As a father myself now,

qsajaq
Guest

Woops… As a father myself now, I have a completely different opinion of these women.

Rafael
Guest
Rafael

@ misanthropist

I agree with that feminism is basically a giant shit test to see what men are high value but it still seems like women are limiting their options by making the environment so anti male.

Juster
Guest
Juster

It looks like we are witnessing a return to the “natural” mammal mode of reproduction with difficulties to most males to reproduce. If less (= only the best) males reproduce, the genetic information passed to the next generation is of higher quality, which of course is what nature wants. Those males will naturally have more than one female while others will not reproduce (=mate). It looks like this is already happening more or less and it looks very much like a return. It might be argued that the (historically very short) period when society managed to control the natural reproductive… Read more »

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

Oh yeah, the protagonist in the book Brave New World (you know, the savage who believed in true love) committed suicide at the end of the story over that chick he was trying to white knight for (atleast in the movie version).You could say he represented the good old fashioned traditionalist type of BP man. I never really thought of that book in this light. It makes you wonder about gynocentrism and the potential for using it as a tool for the systematic social engineering of an entire society. I’m not convinced that it’s anything that sinister. If Feminism is… Read more »

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

@ Juster

I agree with you about nature’s desire for the 80/20 Pareto principle. It should be interesting to see how it plays out for humanity in the future with technology thrown into the mix if men ever wake up and hack there hindbrains and societal conditioning in mass – i’m thinking that 5 beautiful android robots should be enough for me on my dyson disc 🙂

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

@ IAS

Yeah, thanks for that link, it’s right above that one.

ace
Guest
ace
dorsey47
Guest

When I read this, it makes me think about the woman and the beast in Revelation. Even John was enthralled by her.

dorsey47
Guest

This concept reminds me of the woman riding on the back of the beast in Revelation. The angel rebuked John from being enthralled by her. Hiding/unveiling enthrallment is the only proper response.

dorsey47
Guest

The woman rode on the back of the beast. The angel rebuked John for being enthralled by her image.

Radium
Guest
Radium

In my experience, the inner cities are the end result of open hypergamy. The vast majority of teen girls and young women are rewarded for becoming baby mommies. Without a need for resources, they are overwhelmingly selecting the thug as their baby daddies. I knew one guy with 29 babies and counting. He was more of a PU than a thug. A friend works at a community center where it is not uncommon for some men in their early 20s to have a dozen babies. Of course, this means that most men are not reproducing at all. This system requires… Read more »

Roused
Guest
Roused

What Scribbler wrote. +1 Adapt and evolve. Does seem almost as if it is one giant shit test for the male half of our species. The burden of performance never ends, isn’t that what has been said over and over here? This: “This is why a successful civilization is one where monogamous men are firmly in charge; woman retain too many instincts better suited to monkeys. The only useful instinct women have is submitting to a dominant male, so make each man dominant in his own house, and his wife will happily serve him.” Not to be dismissive Dave, but… Read more »

Ang Aamer
Guest

This is a hot sports opinion Rollo, “This means any paternity assurances, or even the idea that they should matter to a man, must be surrendered to the point that they are literally conditioned and bred out of the consciousnesses of men.” I would say this works out for the “Alphas” of our society. And we already see this happening. Alphas are the ZFG dudes doing 80 percent of the women after all. But what about the Betas? I would say we need a solution for them or our society is toast. Obviously the European experiment of importing Alphas to… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Radium

“No one gets elected by asking women to be responsible”

True, appeals to the forebrain are damned. However women will be led by a dominant man. This is the future of western politics if we are to survive. Trump … Putin… and ISIS are the very beginning of this… Commands to the hindbrain will work.

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

I would suggest that the traditionalist beta concept of chivalry/monogamy plays right into the hands of women and their open hypergamy. Now that open hypergamy (i.e., Feminism) has been let out of the genie bottle it will not be put back into that old defunct bottle nor should it be since that is just how women evolved. The stubborn loyalty to these traditionalist tenants by BP men will result in the proverbial falling on one’s own sword by these same clueless white knights as the RP men stand by helplessly to watch until their BP brothers cleanse their lens’ of… Read more »

Eeeeeeee
Guest
Eeeeeeee

Very interesting that you said how emotion would be selected out. There’s a sort of grimness in your words. Sociopathy being the most successful sexual strategy in the current sexual market means we’re slowly but surely going to hell as a society, and that no matter what red pill men do, the are still subject to the whims of women and their hypergamy, that freedom is an illusion. We’re basically slaves in a plantation who know that the are slaves, but can’t do anything to earn their freedom. It would take a society wide fallout and reestablishment of patriarchal norms… Read more »

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

I told a female co-worker that her cat didn’t really love her the way that her dog did. In her own solipsistic way she understood the difference and she seemed to adore that observation while playfully denying it. Strangely, I prefer cats to dogs. Dog lovers like to be loved. Cat lovers like to be entertained and amused – that’s why they like cats. BTW my solipsistic cat does not care about this stuff and neither do most women. That’s why in the long run men will have the advantage once we get over our unconditional hardwired hindbrain puppy love… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

“That there can only be freedom, rationality and virtue in a world where women do not have rights.”

Cheer up people. Taking away women’s rights, or enacting some sort of social shaming is just a band-aid. It doesn’t work long term. We’ve proven that haven’t we? Learning game man by man and passing it on to subsequent generations is the only sustainable solution.

Radium
Guest
Radium

Sentient “True, appeals to the forebrain are damned. However women will be led by a dominant man. This is the future of western politics if we are to survive. Trump … Putin… and ISIS are the very beginning of this… Commands to the hindbrain will work.” I agree. However, there is enough resource scarcity and / or threats of physical violence in Russia and the middle east to make this work. Women look to masculine men when these conditions prevail. We have far more resource abundance and security than those regions have. It will be very difficult for even Donald… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

“truth be told if I allow my son to be indoctrinated in the American view of family… well I’ll be lucky if he as one kid.”

Ang- European birthrates are below replacement levels… what is different in your view?

IAS
Guest
IAS

@Andy: I’m not sure lots of men / every man learning game is a solution. If that would happen without any other changes, only the top 20% (or 10%) get laid anyway, it is just that the ones not getting laid understand better why not. So at best the ones at bottom 80% that are now game aware and somewhat competent at it but not good enough compared with the other 20%, are more aware and are not willing to be Beta Bucks (or some of them might even knowing what they are getting into, as long as they are… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

“So at best the ones at bottom 80% that are now game aware and somewhat competent at it but not good enough compared with the other 20%”

Here’s where I disagree. The more guys that have game, the wider the distribution of pussy. That pareto distribution isn’t a rule.

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Radium “We have far more resource abundance and security than those regions have.” As a country yes, as a household…. ermmm not so much. How much abundance and security does your average 28 YO single woman have? ever looked at their “finances”, their net worth? Negative. Same with the average family of 4. The frail economy, the lopsided economy is THE story of this election cycle, and only sanders and Trump are hitting it. The rest – well it’s all bout dem fiat dollaz yo! “In addition, we also have a media and academic system with a vision of a… Read more »

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

I agree with you Andy. We can’t go back – only forward. Every RP man has a responsibility to pass this knowledge on (or at least make an attempt). I do not have progeny of my own but I do have a BP friend who is married with two son’s and I plan on giving each one of them Rollo’s two books on their 18th birthdays. I only wish there was a way I could tie them down and force them to read the material contained in them but one can only try. As an adult it ultimately becomes each… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

“It’s gotten to the point that even men’s initiating an approach at the most marginal form of intimacy runs the risk of not just rejection, but legal and social punishments for even taking it upon himself.” “This means any paternity assurances, or even the idea that they should matter to a man, must be surrendered to the point that they are literally conditioned and bred out of the consciousnesses of men.” “Since the time of the sexual revolution there has been a complete social abdication on the part of men to have any say in exercising, much less advocating for,… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

“Having a victim mentality, well, that is just another brick in the wall.”

Exactly. The beautiful thing about it is that it will make you a happier and more complete man anyway. Independent of any socio-sexual power struggles.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Eeeeeeee “Very interesting that you said how emotion would be selected out. “ Jeremy actually said that (the 2nd paragraph in the OP) in regards to Stoicism being a potential male strategy against concealed estrus. He meant men’s emotions should be selected out as a praxeologic strategy. “So in my head, I tried to think of what the best response to hidden estrus would be from a male perspective, and the only thing I could think of was essentially hiding male horniness, I used the word stoicism. The only way to balance the effects of hidden estrus is for all… Read more »

redlight
Guest
redlight

@Rollo Although my last post may have been on the melodramatic side, the exaggeration is still founded … okay, so less melodrama this time perhaps? Then you close with: In a social order founded on Hypergamy, that dynamic demands that men’s utterly abdicate their sexual and biological imperatives to women. This means any paternity assurances, or even the idea that they should matter to a man, must be surrendered to the point that they are literally conditioned and bred out of the consciousnesses of men. First regarding “men utterly abdicate” (dropping the ‘s or you could change to “abdication of”),… Read more »

Roused
Guest
Roused

“It would take a society wide fallout and reestablishment of patriarchal norms to get things going in a better direction. Every post I read from your blog suggests that mgtow is the only way to go. That there can only be freedom, rationality and virtue in a world where women do not have rights.”

I call BULLSHIT on that.

Radium
Guest
Radium

Sentient “womenz still gotta eat… the hamster will deal with the cognitive dissonance as always. Trump is very electable.” I don’t disagree with anything you said. I think the uncertainty of how this will play out is going to be in the effectiveness of the spin. There is a tremendous amount of anger out there. However, all messages are filtered to some degree through the main stream media, which believes in a feminized united world Utopia. The average 28 year old woman has negative finances because she is only concerned about her immediate wants. She will spend her retirement on… Read more »

Colbert
Guest
Colbert

@SJF I think that final step of transforming ones’ RP rage into entertained amusement is where many MGTOW’s get stuck. I took the RP almost 4 months ago and devour this material like a starving man at a buffet. it seems the RP rage still hits me in waves as I replay 45 years of memories in my head. It is indeed a very bitter pill. I have no regrets though and feel more free and liberated by every day that passes. Sometimes I feel like an anthropologist while observing the behavior of my female coworkers as it has become… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Roused – Indeed. The real problem for men today? Monogamy and Patriarchy and mass prosperity gave Betas something to bargain with. Now they are losing their bargaining power. Sucks to be a Beta… Best part? Beta and Alpha are not real or even accurate (go see a female Alpha wolf pack leader, not uncommon at all). They are merely indicators, pointers, a shorthand we can use to get a handle on social hierarchies and dominance/submission. The Mission Going Forward For All Men: Break your social conditioning – it’s working against your interests personally and collectively. Blue Pill “Betaness” is required… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
Guest

@Andy: “Taking away women’s rights, or enacting some sort of social shaming is just a band-aid. It doesn’t work long term. We’ve proven that haven’t we?”

You have it exactly 180 degrees backwards. Taking away women’s rights IS the solution and Game is the band-aid. Game hacks hypergamy indirectly. Stoning unfaithful women who are not haaapppppy is just a bit more effective- which we have proven by every long-lasting civilization in world history.

Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
Guest
Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy

We’ve discussed this before, but keep in mind full implementation of the 80/20 principle, while natural in nomadic contexts, creates the dynamic which over time transforms cultures/societies, and leads to certain unpleasantries like peasant revolts. Such as in feudal times (the royalty selected the women, 40% of the male peasants did not mate) and middle-eastern polygamy culture (which predates Islam but was grafted into it) – whereby the sheiks got four wives, but the proles who can’t get arranged marriages opt to blow themselves up for the promise of pussy in paradise. In other words, not recipes for long-term stability.… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

You may not need to hide horniness because I’m thinking all this is going to play out in the midst of an increase in obesity rates, even more than it is now. An old article when I used to look at Return of Kings was about women’s general laziness.So the FI, the maximizing strategy while the other is minimized, the fat models in men’s magazines. It all has a common element of women don’t want to have to do anything or keep up anything about themselves. They want it to default to them as the prize because they’re female. The… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@SJF – My above post can be summarized as what happens after KR grief phases? What is the plan of action? I love the way you break it down and I wonder how you might riff on a program for changing one’s social conditioning? You synthesize all of this so well while I’m obsessed with internalizing it and making it personally relevant. The two of us could create an amazing “Red Pill Transformation Plan” I think. Gaming is important, but I wonder, are their other experiential things one can do? Of course, “the field tells all” is right but that… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
Guest

@EEEEeee: “That there can only be freedom, rationality and virtue in a world where women do not have rights.” There is a stark difference between taking away SOME of “women’s rights” and saying women should not have ANY rights. Under the Patriarchy women had HUGE levels of rights. They were protected, fed, employed, and productive. There were social conditions in place to protect women. An abusive husband was likely to have a “talking to” by the abused woman’s brothers. So I think the ONLY “right” and privilege that must be taken away from women is the right to seize control… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

“The Feminine Imperative that exists today still uses these historically extreme controls as a baseline for provoking an emotional response among women (and feminized men) today. In spite of the realities of Open Hypergamy and Open Cuckoldry, and paired with the fact that we live in the most sexually permissive society the world has largely known to this point, there is still a necessity to sell a narrative of sexual repression in order to perpetuate a social condition of ‘victimization’ among women and thus perpetuate a status of concern and primary importance. That was stated by Misanthropist, and agreed with… Read more »

Roused
Guest
Roused

@Bluepillprofressor,

So we’ve been told by those with more experience and learned that we cannot negotiate desire….but we can legislate desire? Somehow I don’t think laws are going to make panties wet. That’s job of the man, thus the burden of performance.

Agreed that custody laws, alienation, support and such need overhaul. I’ve got the fucking t-shirt on that. Desire? Nope. The man either can keep her interest with frame, game etc or he can’t.

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, I am still a rookie at this, even though I’m 52.

Marcus
Guest
Marcus

Hi Rollo, you mentioned suicide rates being way higher for men than for women. One might argue that this is a somewhat natural phenomenon the same as higher diffenrences in IQ, height and other things among males (or driven by these things). I tried to find long term data on this which seems to be somewhat hard. I came up with these sites: #1 http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/unitstates.pdf #2 http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates (different numbers compared to #1) #3 http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ –> recent numbers show an overall increase since 2005, but no split by gender on this site Overall I would argue that they are somewhat stable… Read more »

AnonS
Guest
AnonS

This is interesting pillars of civilization stuff. Makes me wonder if even the hard core racist groups still white knight and tip toe around their women. For all their talk about a stronger civilization that are impotent to get the biggest puzzle piece right, because the state will stop any such use of force. The Mormons will stay strong if they can keep their piece in place through harsh social stigma. Young daughters are married off to successful older men or face family exile and told they are disobeying God. It is painful when lies pragmatically get greater conformance to… Read more »

Pinelero
Guest
Pinelero

Who would have thought Miss E would be 2-faced?

A lot of us post on multiple platforms, but have the same message, because of integrity and character.

redlight
Guest
redlight

@Marcus

Use the CDC 2014 numbers

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Scribblerg

“Think top down and bottom up behavioral change.”

Do this… pursue the Platinum Rule [Do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it]. That’s it. That will drive all other changes.

For everything you do ask – why am I doing this? Whose frame is it being done in? For whose benefit? Who is directing? What do I want from this? etc.

Andy
Guest
Andy

” Stoning unfaithful women who are not haaapppppy is just a bit more effective- which we have proven by every long-lasting civilization in world history.” YET, here we are… “Game hacks hypergamy indirectly.” Indirectly? How could it be more direct than game? Do you ACTUALLY think that hypergamy was ACTUALLY controlled in any of these historical utopian fantasies that everyone is having? Do you think that the threat of “stoning” is actually going to have any affect on a woman’s thought process when we know that current emotion in the heat of the moment is the ONLY thing that matters?… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest

@Scrib, at the risk of muddying up this thread, feel free to post whatever you’ve got on Emily here.

http://media4.giphy.com/media/RBHyBe7RU28lW/200.gif

redlight
Guest
redlight

Riffing on “paternity assurances”, the popular book Sex at Dawn attempted to take us back in time before the patriarchy (before Nova’s “once we were at a level of more complex social organization beyond the rather small”). The authors attempted to argue, in part, that the tribal structure resulted in partible paternity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partible_paternity In no surprise this seems to follow FI themes. As this book review of Sex at Dusk (a rebuttal) discusses there were some holes: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/04/book-review-sex-at-dusk/ … partible paternity does exist, but the societies that practice it aren’t hunter-gatherer hippie communes, nor is it ever about women trying… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

“If she is willing to trade her retirement for her immediate wants, why would she be concerned about the fate of her nation? “</i< She never will be concerned about her nation, just her own personal security. Eeeeekkkk! Spider!!!!! every.damn.time. “Whether she votes for Trump is going to depend on the spin. Can she be convinced that Trump will provide her with more stuff and more security?” Not because of the spin, but in spite of the spin. She will be convinced because what else will SHE (and by proxy beta men) do with the spider? Who’s going to kill… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@SJF

Jeremy actually said that…

Ya, but I honestly don’t see discussion of evolved emotional control in this post, unless I’m missing something. I’m not certain where eeeee was getting that from.

Pellaeon
Guest
Pellaeon

at the risk of muddying up this thread, feel free to post whatever you’ve got on Emily here Walk away from the dark side Rollo. Starve the troll of attention. I have faith in you… You CAN do it. e I will be discussing much of this with Alan Roger Currie this coming Thursday night on his podcast. We’ll be talking at 10pm EST/7pm PST and this will be a live call-in format, so if you’d like to participate I’d encourage you to do so. This should be very interesting. I might have to call in on this one. Be… Read more »

Datson Horrenbrand
Guest
Datson Horrenbrand

Spot on as always.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Sentient:

And that turned out to require the tightly coordinated effort of two men.

bluepillprofessor
Guest

So Emily is a Blue Pill Troll! Just don’t color me surprised. Her attempts to ingratiate herself with this group have been fatuous. It is one thing to doubt the efficacy of our methods and raise the typical feminine objections- it is quite quite another to study anti-red pill tactics and attempt to troll the men of TRM.

TLDR: Zap the troll Rollo.

Novaseeker
Guest
Novaseeker

Rollo —

Thanks. I’m looking forward to your discussion later this week!

Also, little Em is a gift that just keeps giving, isn’t she?

Fred —

I agree where we are going — that is the slouching towards chaos type of thing. But tech is always a wildcard really.

Everyone —

Great comments and great discussion.

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Rollo – Shot my wad on the last thread. I clicked on the Reddit link and well, all I can say is that other people should do so too. I’m done with her and realize even yesterday was stupid. She’s not influenced or shamed by her behavior. Engaging her is useless, and as i said ‘all I proved is that she’s beautiful’. Thankfully, as I’ve mentioned here before, I’ve been privileged to know great, chaste, Catholic women. They would take pity on Emily, fyi. Me? I’m all out of pity for her, and anything else for that matter. Only point… Read more »

scray
Guest
scray

@ias “I’m not sure lots of men / every man learning game is a solution. If that would happen without any other changes, only the top 20% (or 10%) get laid anyway, it is just that the ones not getting laid understand better why not.” this isn’t true. GO OUT. maybe the top 20% are the only ones who can go out and get sex and engage in more short term relationships (meaning they are attractive enough to a wide enough variety of women that this is a viable option) but the other guys get laid too. after 6 dates… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Sentient – THIS! “Do this… pursue the Platinum Rule [Do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it]. That’s it. That will drive all other changes.
For everything you do ask – why am I doing this? Whose frame is it being done in? For whose benefit? Who is directing? What do I want from this? etc.”

Seems simple but in fact, due to our social conditioning, men adopting this POV would beget a social revolution. Imagine, men spitting the bit out? Lol, me first….

qsajaq
Guest

Recently, life has put me in situations that mirror my father’s situations years earlier. As I worked through these situations, many dormant fem-beta attitudes about my dad rose to the surface, wanting for me to confront them. It was easy because I stopped hating him, so the truth of our shared experiences could be recognized and appreciated. But you’re right. You could point out the problem to a 16 year old me but I hated him and “masculinity” so much that it would do no good. I was a real feminist pussy. You need that hard introspection and courage to… Read more »

Pellaeon
Guest
Pellaeon

Shot my wad on the last thread. I clicked on the Reddit link and well, all I can say is that other people should do so too. I’m done with her and realize even yesterday was stupid. She’s not influenced or shamed by her behavior. Engaging her is useless, I’m gonna be a dick here and point out that this was obvious back in December, and I said as much then. Just like most red pill lessons though, many have to be learned the hard way. It’s not just her though, in general, it’s useless to engage women on a… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@ Jeremy , “Ya, but I honestly don’t see discussion of evolved emotional control in this post, unless I’m missing something. I’m not certain where eeeee was getting that from.” I thought the same thing and hence the clarification of what you and he were saying. But I think I know where he was getting that. He was wishful thinking. Evolved emotional control for men=That mythic “pill” that can mute testosterone’s desire for sex with women without making MGTOW’s less of a male. That has to be something that bob’s to the surface consciousness often in a MGTOW’s mind and… Read more »

Wild Man
Guest
Wild Man

Of interest wrt to the topic of this post is that men are subliminally aware of ovulation: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/03/hormones.aspx Our bodies are often doing things for which we may just make up inaccurate rationale for, after the fact, but this does not necessarily preclude one from obtaining more accurate conscious self-awareness around the subliminal activity. With the women I have been with (particularly my ex-wife of a 20-year marriage), what I soon came to notice over a bit of time, is that I can become consciously aware of the ovulation signals, by way of subtle changes in her, as well as… Read more »

Radium
Guest
Radium

In order to understand the future, it is best to look at the past. Thomas Sowell has written that a generation of welfare did what 300 years of slavery and jim crow could not. That was to break the black family. Thomas Sowell has written that black marriage rates from 1890 (first census with marriage data) to 1940 showed a similar or slightly greater marriage rate for blacks than for whites. However, by 1960, the black marriage rate dropped below that of whites, and then plummeted well below that of whites after that census. Thomas Sowell has also written that… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

“The daughter was sent out to the lake, dressed as a bride, to be fed to the dragon” In the story, St George slays the dragon. Alpha or beta? Not sure. IRL the woman would have fucked the dragon of course… hypergamy + safety = chance to procreate and perpetuate = biological purpose fulfilled. Reminded of a very vivid dream I had, waking with the understanding that ultimate Alpha is not the power of life but the power to take life. Blessed are the life takers, for they shall inherit the world, perhaps? https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/07/26/the-myopia-of-iq-fetishism/#comment-592770 Game distilled down in a dream… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“. . . the soup kitchens of the 1930s . . .”

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3464/3371001850_5929b00466_z.jpg

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@Radium So where is this open hypergamy going? The system of open hypergamy is inherently unstable. When you take fathers out of the home, crime and social problems increase exponentially. The children raised in these environments are functionally unemployable. Its sustainable only as long as the government can burrow and spend or resources can be redistributed from other areas. I think it was in the 90s I was reading about the problems that animal reservists in West Asia were having creating stable populations of Elephants. It seemed that every time these guys imported a “family unit” the first generation males… Read more »

Radium
Guest
Radium

Why is it only men that we see in line for soup kitchens? Does this imply that women were actually getting some form of welfare in the 1930s? I had assumed everyone who wanted aid was going to the soup kitchen, but perhaps I am mistaken.

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Radium “Feminine values are able to spread in areas with abundant resources and high security” There is more to it perhaps… CH has coined the term pathological altruism, and the theory that European whites carry this genetic defect above all others. Looking at Asia, for example, I’d have to agree. abundant resources, high security and much lower levels of feminist thought and action intra society. On your timeline though, you have to question the start dates… not as post WW2 but to 1920. what collective madness drove the majority of the west to give women the right to vote? The… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

I know a lot of people respect Thomas Sowell and his opinions/research, but as a black man that has pretty much a front row seat to the destruction of black communities, Sowell misses so much that it makes his writings highly suspect imo. I would caution others to take his explanations with 2 grains of salt. Even I am old enough to remember that the first ” projects ” were inhabited mainly by people of Jewish decent ( they coined the popular term ” ghetto ” that I always chastise black people from embracing, and they were followed by Italians… Read more »

Radium
Guest
Radium

Jeremy The story about the elephants was described in a book called Animal Wise. What I remember was the older elephants were killed, and the young with their mothers were transported to new areas. You’re right about the young males becoming violent, and how the importation of older males solved the problem. And you’re right, this is what we are doing with welfare. I read a study a year ago or so that concluded that for every 1% decrease in fathers, crime rose by something like 3%. What we are seeing in society is manufacturing that remains in the US… Read more »

Pellaeon
Guest
Pellaeon

Seems simple but in fact, due to our social conditioning, men adopting this POV would beget a social revolution. Imagine, men spitting the bit out? You say this as if it’s a bad thing. I’ve heard a lot of “if everyone were alpha then no one would get along.” I’m not convinced this is true. I look at scray and YaReally, they seem to be really chill and looking to spread the love. I think society would be better in general if miraculously 80% of the male population suddenly mastered have and became alphas in fact. It would seriously reduce… Read more »

Tom
Guest
Tom

I’d like to share some personal thoughts. My dating or game approach is not complicated yet it works for me. I’m only interested in meeting attractive women and have, typically, a one-year relationship with them. This means that I have a girlfriend as long as she is in love with me—for one year. After that I break up. This is nature, guys. After one year the thrill is gone, so why continue after that? In the one-year relation, I avoid to live with her. In fact, I have an issue regarding cohabitation with women. I dislike it very much, I… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Does this imply that women were actually getting some form of welfare in the 1930s?” Men got workfare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration It was assumed that by giving men work, women would be taken care of, but that was to some degree a faulty assumption, so: “It hired single women, widows, or women with disabled or absent husbands. While men were given unskilled manual labor jobs, usually on construction projects, women were assigned mostly to sewing projects. They made clothing and bedding to be given away to charities and hospitals. Women also were hired for the WPA’s school lunch program.” Basically women had… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@Blaximus Oh, and most businesses did not leave due to crime and/or security. They left, frankly, because they didn’t want to be in communities of color. I’m willing to entertain that Sowell misses some important points. But this point is fairly solid. For instance, before the Watts riots, and the Rodney King riots, there were businesses in those areas, that served the same people robbing them, that got burned. Those businesses never returned. When you commit crime against a businessman, you are doing two things. You are violating that persons property rights, and you are forcing that person to consider… Read more »

Radium
Guest
Radium

Blaximus

I’ve noticed that Thomas Sowell doesn’t speculate about certain causes and effects. Can you provide some examples of things he misses in his analyses?

kfg
Guest
kfg

” . . . what collective madness drove the majority of the west to give women the right to vote?”

WWI. It broke the mind of Western Civilization and it has never recovered.

I will repeat my recommendation (ad nauseam I suppose) to read The Razor’s Edge. The movies aren’t bad either. The first is truer to the book, the second (if you can get over seeing Bill Murray as Bill Murray) is perhaps closer to the spirit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwl_p8GJxo

There’s some serious Red Pill shit in it.

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@kfg

WWI. It broke the mind of Western Civilization and it has never recovered.

Boy, aint that the god-damned truth of it.

SJB
Guest
SJB

Why is it only men that we see in line for soup kitchens?
.
Some men would accept charity for themselves to give more of their wage to their family. Some of those guys were pretty tough doing a day’s labor on a third of the day’s calories.

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

Radium – takes way too long. This ain’t the place for that. Jeremy, The Watts Riots, and the Newark Riots which I remember ( seeing tanks in the streets ) Were the initial negative reactions to the problems, mainly lack of jobs, on the ground. Assassinations of leaders who were trying to build coalitions and unite people to use democratic processes and protests to address the problems just lit multiple fuses. Rodney King riots have always been self explanatory to me. But I understand how people could see it differently. Brutality by law enforcement is an ongoing problem. Look into… Read more »

Radium
Guest
Radium

Sentient “I’ve yet to see a RP explanation for this. Everything else stems from this, 1920 is Year Zero.” A female anti-suffragette whose name I no longer remember said something like “And what do you want us to do with our children? Let colored women raise them?” I think if you substitute “low educated women” for “colored”, this statement comes close to summing up the conflicts of the 20th century as technology freed people from traditional gender roles. Industry and child raising are equally important functions that maintain a society. At no time in previous human history could gender roles… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@SJB: Lot of that going around too. But here’s a photo illustrative of my earlier point:

http://great-depression-facts.com/images/great-depression-facts.com/facts-about-the-depression.jpg

The wages given to their family while they stood in the soup line was often sent home – to a different city, much as immigrants do today.

This is my favorite Depression picture though:

http://media.virbcdn.com/files/resize_1024x1365/3d/FileItem-101350-Shorpy_535075248_Lang.jpg

Alpha is a mindset.

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