The Talk

the_talk

Softek has had the almost predictable move for The Talk from his current (I believe BPD) “girlfriend”. Just to clarify a few things here before I dig into Softek’s questions I think it’s necessary to define what “The Talk” is. Generally, there comes a point with a  particular plate you’re spinning when a woman believe it’s within her feminine entitlements to force the issue of exclusivity upon a man. I’ve written several foundational posts about non-exclusivity and the reasons men should opt for (Plate Theory) and I’ve also covered The Talk from practical considerations in Ultimatums, but feminized pop-culture has made what essentially amounts to a Frame shift into a life event.

The Talk is literally the defining of a relationship, and in a feminine-primary social order that defining power is presumed to always reside with a woman according to her “needs”. I should also add here that as men have become more feminized and uncomfortable in describing themselves as masculine, the feminine security need for a confirmed relationship status puts these men into the feminine role of initiating The Talk themselves. There are few grosser indications of a Beta / Blue Pill mental point of origin and a self-confirming lack of options than a man negotiating for exclusivity by formalizing it with a feminized relationship event.

What does Negotiated Desire mean for a relationship when a woman has resorted to it?

They’re powerless, yes, they feel helpless, yes.

But what does this mean for their perception of the man they’re trying to Negotiate for?

Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness. Let me be clear before I get the standard, “you need to be a Man and set boundaries with her” retort – as with all things for men, it is better to demonstrate than to explicate.

However, in this instance, we have a woman issuing the ultimatum and the sense of powerlessness comes into contrast. The very act of having The Talk is a negotiation of desire. The medium is the message. We can separate a woman’s entitlement to an “official” relationship with it, but the fact that a formal talk would be necessary to legitimize it is the message she ignores or hopes you won’t recognize  – it’s a negotiated obligation, not a genuine desire.

Making a euphemism out of this ultimatum by calling The Talk and dancing around the want for a long term security is a form of Buffer for women. And as with all Buffers, the intent is to lessen the impact of rejection by preemptively buffering the seriousness of it should it come to that.

There are a few reasons women will move for something like The Talk. First and foremost is the Hypergamic need for certainty. When a woman presses for exclusivity with a man she tips her hand in the Hypergamic scheme of things. In this instance the root message is twofold – she perceives you as high enough value to seek some kind of exclusive permanency and / or she acknowledges (or is beginning to) that her capacity to attract other prospective men is depreciating. Women with greater sexual market options and a commensurate self-impression rarely push for this relationship formality.

Another reason for The Talk is that women, on some level of consciousness, seek to alleviate the competition anxiety that comes with making an emotional investment in a man she perceives is 1-2 steps above her own sexual market value. A passive form of Dread almost certainly plays a role in the prompt to formalize an LTR, however, what’s prompting that Dread can range from an emotional investment based on a genuine desire to the pragmatic necessity to settle on a guy who meets her security needs in contrast to her ability to attract a better prospect.

As women enter the Epiphany Phase the need for a Talk becomes more urgent. As a woman’s attractiveness wanes Hypergamy cannot afford uncertainty or the risk of a loss of emotional investment. This is yet one more reason women tend to opt for dutiful Betas during the Epiphany Phase. Unattached higher SMV men entering their peak SMV phase are less inclined to look for or agree to, exclusivity when they have more available sexual options. Blue Pill men, unused to a sudden interest from women, are usually eager to formalize on exclusivity irrespective of a woman’s sexual history or her necessitous reasonings for exclusivity.

Have they lost respect for him? What is Negotiated Desire, on the woman’s part, indicative of in the relationship?

Again, this is somewhat subjective and depends on the man and woman’s conditions. As I mentioned above, the push for exclusivity on her part is prompted from necessity or Hypergamous anxiety. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated and it’s important to consider that this is equally true when it’s women doing the negotiating. Blue Pill conditioning has acculturated generations of women to expect that a man formalizing monogamy with her is not just her right, but that men will understand and accept that it is “the right thing to do” if he want’s to be accounted as a man.

We have an entire fem-centric world of women and men reinforcing this male-shame narrative in every branch of society – from church to popular media, you’re not a “man” if you so much as question your role in an exclusivity founded on a woman’s correct need of it.

This presents an interesting conflict for women. Women want men who just get it, but the necessity of petitioning a man for The Talk in the first place conflicts with the organicness of his understanding of women. Pushy, loud-mouthed, outspoken women raised on the Fempowerment narrative are often the most insecure in respect to this conflict. On one hand the narrative has bred her to expect a man to be her-equal-who’s-better-than-her-equal and ‘man up’ and formalize on his own. On the other hand, when he doesn’t, the anxiety that comes with the countdown to her Wall pushes her to force his compliance or to provide her own security for herself.

Now imagine this scenario with an Empowered Woman® dealing with the Beta in Waiting who represents her only viable LTR option. Yes, she may have lost respect for him, but her situation frustratingly compels her to force the issue of exclusivity with a guy who doesn’t get it.

Is it a sign of a failed relationship?

I don’t have any other experience, so my base assumption is that ALL WOMEN will push for commitment eventually, and want to pressure you into it, and ‘make things official.’

What does this mean for the health of the relationship?

Should it just end?

The necessity of a Talk in the first place puts this assessment into doubt. Women who don’t eventually push for commitment understand the nature of that relationship is temporary or there really is no potential, so there won’t be a Talk. The problem I see with making this formality something overtly public is that it has the opposite effect of qualifying what may be genuine desire without it. When The Talk enters into out popular consciousness it then becomes yet another ‘typical male’ fault.

Men become infantilized for not understanding women’s correctness in wanting a formalized declaration of monogamy. Once that infantilization becomes the accepted truism for women, what might’ve been a very good pairing of a man and a woman based on an organic genuine desire, turns into an obligation on his part to convince her that he’s not a child by living above that truism. The relationship becomes less about the genuine interest between the two and more about satisfying the “official” nature of it among men and women plugged into a Blue Pill social conditioning.

Should it just end at that point? If a man’s first act of a coerced monogamy is his capitulating to what amounts to a socially mandated ultimatum I think the woman he surrendered to will subconsciously lose the respect she had for him while they were “undocumented lovers.”

In a case like Rollo’s, or any other married guy here:

How did it happen? How do you get married without Negotiated Desire?

Is it IMPOSSIBLE, and it’s just a matter of minimizing the degree of Negotiation?

Same with having an official girlfriend. When you COMMIT even on the level of a ‘steady girlfriend,’ isn’t that Negotiating Desire by default?

I get this question a lot and for a lot of hard-line guys, even the best thing a married man (or LTR man) can say will always sound like he found a unicorn. You have to understand in my case the last woman I’d been in a formal LTR with before my wife was the BPD I described in the Two Guitars post. I had no intention of getting into an LTR at the time and for a long while, Mrs. Tomassi was one of four plates I was spinning at the time. All of this was above board and we dated non-exclusively for the first 3-4 months.

I began with a rock solid Frame at this time not because I was focused on establishing it, but because I had three other women in rotation and I was entirely indifferent to any idea of exclusivity with any of them. Of those four, Mrs. T was hottest and funnest in and out of bed so I gravitated to seeing her more regularly. I also appreciated her from the new perspective I had in contrast to the psychotic mess my BPD had been. She expected me to be conventionally masculine and I was already filling that role by default because I had a new outlook on women as a result of all that.

We never had a Talk when it came to exclusivity; she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend. She literally asked to be part of my world during that brief conversation. I’ve had the Frame from the moment we started non-exclusively to where we are now 20 years later.

I’ll say it again, don’t use my example as some model for your own life, but there needs to be an organic flow to how you enter into any LTR.

It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized. As I stated in the beginning, frame will be fluid and conditions will influence the balance, but the overall theme of your relationship needs to be led and molded by you. Even very influential, professional, intellectualizing women still crave the right man to establish his frame in her life. They may fight it bitterly, but ultimately it’s what will make for the best healthy balance she can achieve. There’s a growing undercurrent of mid-life women questioning and regretting their past decisions to remain single into spinsterhood. And for all their late game rationalizations, the one thing they still simply refuse to accept is acknowledging that a man’s frame, the frame their “fierce independence” wouldn’t allow for, was exactly the salve their egos so desperately wants now later in life.

Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] The Talk […]

Daniel
Guest
Daniel

“Once that becomes the accepted truism for women what might’ve been a very good pairing of a man and a woman based on an organic genuine desire”

smindux
Guest
smindux

Every time you give up freedom you empower someone/something. So I believe there are two sides to the frame of exclusive relationship. First Why do you give up freedom and second Where goes the power. You covered the “Why” part in great detail as always. It boils down to: extrinsic Whys will get you into trouble, intrinsic ones are OK. Where goes the power however is very subtle in this essay. Of course there are other posts that cover this topic. Again it boils down to: she is not only incapable of managing the power you give her, she will… Read more »

Name Withheld.
Guest
Name Withheld.

Ahhh fuck it.
I am staying a Bachelor with the occasional sex mongering trip to South East Asia.
It works out much cheaper in the end as well.

kobayashii1681
Guest

“You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.”
One of the golden rules….

BC
Guest
BC

Every relationship has a dom and a sub, so you must choose:

Your frame, her frame, or no frame (= no relationship).

ozza
Guest
ozza

Rollo, a post on the Brock Turner case? The light sentence indicates the judge thinks the guy is not guilty, which is exactly how I feel, but the femcentric media are going nuts, with every hairy armpit feminazi having all their bullshit about “rape culture” in College plasted all over the web.

D Man
Guest
D Man

Well said Mr T, she enters into your reality not the other way round. I agree with this concept 100% I have a question, my wife in my estimation operates mostly in my frame, I am in better shape than her, have just completed a Batchelor’s Degree in Business & Finance and at some stage want to work abroad. She say she won’t (family etc). Do you think if I increased my value she would organically want to be part of my frame so she simply moves with me wherever? Is it possible? My RP understanding is that a man… Read more »

Mineter
Guest
Mineter

So… a man literally cannot win once it gets to this point? If you “just get it” and ask her for (or offer) sexual exclusivity, you are signalling lower status to her by entertaining the notion of bargaining, that your frame is negotiable. If she accepts, you have reduced your own power by frame, and she will esteem you less. Or worse, she rejects your offer of it. (OK, “next”.) If she has to be the one to force the issue, because you don’t “just get it”, and rather than her being eternally grateful for just having another day you… Read more »

Tvvist
Guest
Tvvist

“And I’m beginning to think that using Dread is little more than an unspoken ultimatum, but an ultimatum nonetheless.”

I would say, that Dread comes from Options…and an Ultimatum is most of the time a spoken Word but with absent Options. And thinking so, isnt “fear” the Fuel for her desire?

Tvvist
Guest
Tvvist

PS: Great Post Rollo.

I noticed, that your Ideas, espacially the ones between the lines, keep me thinking for hours and are bringing me deeper down the rabbit hole.

Every Day some new Layer to my life for nearly two years, since i am started reading here.

Thanks a lot for saving my life.

CathBro
Guest
CathBro

I guess I don’t see it. The point is not The Talk, The Talk will happen nevertheless. “she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend.” She did The Talk, but in a submissive way, since you had the Frame. The point here is you must accept exclusivity on your terms, even if she comes up with it. And by her phrasing you see that she knows that the ball is all in your court, she is not assuming in any way that you MUST accept… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

@Mineter: maybe “active” dread is kind of an unspoken ultimatum, but soft or passive dread is not. Soft dread is having the ability or power of getting sex from other women -and she knowing you have it. That is quite different from telling her you have that power (which may be false or even if true, she may not believe you) AND threaten to use it – that would be an ultimatum. So if you actively flirt in front of an LTR/wife just to show her (active dread) it kind of is threatening to use it, but the dread that… Read more »

Saracen III
Guest
Saracen III

Agree and amplify with a bi-partisan FEATAMA review..
Finances, Education, Abilities, Training, Aptitudes, Medical, Ambitions
“Friday at 2:00 suit you? Bring pen and paper.”

Atticus
Guest
Atticus

http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/forum/social-dynamics/the-betaization-process/

This guy, Illuminatus, theorizes that even if you don’t have an explicit Talk the girl will assume it:

“The contract is entered explicitly (by verbal agreement) or implicitly (by spending the majority of your sexual time with her).

He follows with a pretty simple and well thought out relationship curve.

SJB
Guest
SJB

@Rollo: excellent timing; just saw this article this morning and it buttresses your post nicely: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/women-and-people-under-the-age-of-35-at-greatest-risk-of-anxiety

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“We never had a Talk when it came to exclusivity; she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend. She literally asked to be part of my world during that brief conversation.” sounds familiar. in my case she was 2,000 miles away. we had spent only three weeks together. she called me one day and said she was sick of being hit on and wondered if she could just say that she was my girlfriend but it didn’t have to actually be the case. I said… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

@SJB: the funny thing is that the same people that will point things like that to play up women as victims, can at the same time claim women are functionally the same (psychologically) as men. Granted it would be possible in theory that this huge difference in the likelihood of suffering from anxiety could be due exclusively to external factors. In practice that is highly unlikely. Probably there are studies that can rule the difference being exclusively external, by testing men and women with similar external factors. The article mentioned different geographical regions, if women are consistently higher anxiety across… Read more »

Mofo
Guest
Mofo

Speaking as someone who has been consistently dating for the last 30+ years, the problem is that 20 years ago it was possible to find the rare woman who you could settle down with and have a long and happy marriage with as long as you held frame. I dated a couple of these unicorns back in the 90s but, not being a natural and being thorouhly unaware of game, I wasn’t able to make either of them work out. But now I think these unicorns–already rare back in 1995–simply don’t exist anymore; the Feminine Imperative narrative is simply too… Read more »

pinelero
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pinelero

Insightful as always.

Makes we wonder though what the “talk” was like for our perennial troll(s).

Chris
Guest
Chris

“I have to return some video tapes.”

SJB
Guest
SJB

@IAS: I did not obtain the full paper but would guess that the sex difference is kept at the highest level aggregate — kind of like how “young adults” are a group; a Venn diagram of that group by sex would probably show a majority of women (unmarried, almost at the wall).

having a bad day
Guest
having a bad day

“As women enter the Epiphany Phase the need for a Talk becomes more urgent. As a woman’s attractiveness wanes Hypergamy cannot afford uncertainty or the risk of a loss of emotional investment. ” in her, by the man… which pings BPs as him building ‘relationship equity’ in her… and at base ‘the Talk’ is a major shit test… you fail by accepting her frame and ‘having’ the Talk… “Pushy, loud-mouthed, outspoken women raised on the Fempowerment narrative are often the most insecure in respect to this conflict.” bc they have much lower actual SMV than their egalitarian value set predicts… Read more »

Naproxen
Guest
Naproxen

This doesn’t really have anything directly to do with “The Talk” but I wanted to throw this out there anyway. I recently came upon a new Netflix series titled, “Kevin from Work”. My girlfriend and I were in for the evening and looking for something entertaining. The premise seemed like it might offer some humorous situations from a beta chasing his Oneitis so I started the first episode. I was wrong… so wrong. It wasn’t funny at all. It was probably the most painfully beta femcentric thing I have ever seen. It’s like they took every beta cliche and crammed… Read more »

redlight
Guest
redlight

@rollo

do you want small typo fixes, such as “This present an interesting conflict for women”, “This presents…”

bluepillprofessor
Guest

>You want to see some top notch Blue Pill conditioning? Can you name a single TV show or movie on the last 40 years that is NOT blue pill conditioning? From Disney Princesses to Eat Pray Love to every single movie. I saw a movie last week and the starlet was dating a gruff Middle Eastern man. She left him when he ordered for her! Then she went back to the oneitis man- he of the pillow arms and soft voice- who listened to her, held her, and told her how much he loved her! He also asked her what… Read more »

Artisanal Toad
Guest

Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours. The most fascinating thing of all this is the underlying supposition that what is referred to as “monogamy” is some sort of moral construct that’s driven by a moral standard coming out of Christianity. It isn’t. Yes, the church teaches this and claims it’s from God, but it isn’t and they can’t support it because that’s not what the Bible says. I do not speak of lesser arrangements, but to formalize a “monogamous” relationship as marriage is to enter… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Can you name a single TV show or movie on the last 40 years that is NOT blue pill conditioning?” Chinatown just misses the cutoff. The Ninth Gate, Fatal Attraction, Basic Instinct, Last Man Standing and Miller’s Crossing all make it. All play the FI upfront as a destructive force in men’s lives. From my perennial list, The 13th Warrior and the Burt Reynolds Heat. Reynolds plays a fatally flawed, aging and cynical ex merc reduced to bodyguarding in Vegas, who gets sucked into white knighting, cynically knowing he’s doing so, but along the way clues in a Vox Day… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ Rollo Thank you for the expert analysis. Those questions I asked were eating away at me and this is helping me a lot, and I’m sure it will help more as I process the information on a deeper level. Some things she’s said that support your points: 1) “Make things right and make me your girlfriend” 2) “I feel like I’m being rejected every single day” (because of my ignoring her pleas for commitment) 3) “I can’t deal with this constant rejection” The “Make things right” stuck out to me the most. As if having a relationship based on… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Her friends popping out babies and then giving her shit for not having kids . . . I’m 26, she’s 30. ”

Run. The. Fuck. Away.

Playdontpay
Guest
Playdontpay

Great timing with this post Rollo. My main girl of 15 months ( I only know this as she tells me ) has just thrown her first series of shit tests at me last Friday. At 30 she is 18 years younger than me and hb6.5/7 up to recently she has been good as gold and never shit tested me at all, I never see her more than once a week and by comments she has made she has assumed that I see other girls ( I did not confirm or deny ). About 3 weeks ago I decided to… Read more »

Trent
Guest
Trent

“It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized.”

And what if the man didn’t? Is it irrecoverable? OR is there a reset option – (e.g., soft dread > active dread > affair)? Regardless, this may be a sunk cost fallacy, and he could be better off putting the effort into a new relationship(s).

The Man
Guest
The Man

Redpill movies – Martin Scorsese’s Casino (Sharon Stone – what a performance). I had a woman much like that in my life at one point (not the wife) – huh – gotta make you feel a bit for the Sam Rothstein character, and you know the Ginger McKenna character – what can you say – men be weak for somebody like that (live and learn). How about Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver (that movie got depth man – at the superficial, you may think it’s bluepill – but it’s not). Other redpill movies – what about Woody Allen’s Blue Jasmine –… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ Rollo “In other words, if the Talk was effective in coercing a guy to commit or make the LTR “official” you can bet she will resort to something similar in the future when she feels entitled to other aspects of a marriage in which she controls the frame and he must qualify for her socially conditioned, self-serving definition of manhood for complying with her.” Another reason I haven’t caved (my solution has always been to go silent, mostly because I can’t think of anything to say and don’t see any point in talking about it), has been because my… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Rollo: ” . . . only with guys who aren’t relationship material.”

Playdontpay
Guest
Playdontpay

@ Rollo
What if after the “talk” or the ultimatum and you don’t cave into the commitment, but she returns to the fold and takes care of you sexually as before.
Surely this is establishing frame and you can decide not to next her as she has concurred to your frame ?

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

comment image

Softek’s Relationship (Part 1) – c. 2016, quadriptych, mixed media

Ang Aamer
Guest

To Softek – I understand from a blue pill or purple pill perspective this kind of Ultimatum would be confusing. But from a Red Pill perspective it pretty clear what the optimal course should be here. We always say don’t pay attention to what women say but pay attention to what they DO. Obviously Miss BPD was present when she stated the negotiated Ultimatum. She wants to get more serious. Cool take her to pound town and carry on. “What Ang just ignore her words about wanting to be exclusive?” Yep As a more mature Gent I just love all… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

comment image

“This is all new to me, and I’m very glad you wrote this post, as well as the past few that have come out. Second Unplugging is not easy but I’m definitely learning a lot. I’m going to read over this one until it really starts to sink in. Tough position to be in but I’m very grateful to at least have some awareness of what’s going on.”

“Why do my eyes hurt? You’ve never used them”

some RP Tunney for inspiration…

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

” Meanwhile, men will ALWAYS want to fuck other women, even after they’ve found a partner they’re satisfied with emotionally and sexually…

What would you say? Is that accurate?”

Nope.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

After coming from a local burn. I’ve learned a new way to establish my frame.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

Because it’s segment eleven.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iIOv-ozuqo0

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

…. let me expound. ” Meanwhile, men will ALWAYS want to fuck other women, even after they’ve found a partner they’re satisfied with emotionally and sexually… What would you say? Is that accurate?” A bunch of us commenters went round and round with this in the last thread. My opinion is that a man should not ever commit if he feels a strong pull to still have sex with multiple women. In that case, the woman in question is not fulfilling your need adequately. The operative words being ” feels a STRONG pull “. Of course, depending on the individual,… Read more »

The Man
Guest
The Man

I dunno – before I was married and for dating my ex-wife as well, way back then, the way it worked for me was that when you have already got with a woman, and then continued to share time together, back then I just assumed that she would naturally focus all her sexual desire on me, however I would just soon come to know whether that was occurring or not. And If it was not – then it would be over then (back then I really couldn’t abide by that). And this wasn’t being two-faced on my part, because same… Read more »

Mad Kalak
Guest
Mad Kalak

Nice clip. When a man and a woman are BOTH infirm and in old age, a woman STILL loses respect for a man when he’s ill.

sfer
Guest
sfer

In the Brock Turner case, the woman was passed out. Didn’t rely on just the woman’s testimony since other people saw it.

http://www.stanforddaily.com/2015/01/29/police-report-turner-admits-sexual-contact-denies-alleged-rape/

The Man
Guest
The Man

Wow – great clip of the old couple. The human spirit is irrepressible. Reminds me of my grandparents that lived into their mid-90’s – the best people I ever knew (and I’m sure the old man gives just as good as he takes just like my granddad – love stories like that, that you can see irl, are very inspiring).

redlight
Guest
redlight

The Brock Turner case is not worth discussing except to note another young man’s life is in ruins from not knowing the Red Pill

SJB
Guest
SJB

@rugby11: Ha! Very well done clip. She leans into him — he’s still got it.

The Man
Guest
The Man

Ang Aamer – on your advice to Softek – you said: “But women are irrational about relationships. THEREFORE you only need to realize that it is irrational fear that is driving her to give out this ultimatum. Don’t respond rationally that is the trap. The real response is to provide comfort to keep that plate rotating. Until the effort to provide comfort outweighs either your ability to provide it. A wise Eastern Philosopher asked a traveling American one time. “How do you keep a falling egg from breaking?” The answer is Extend the Journey. We are all mortal. One day… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

“My opinion is that a man should not ever commit if he feels a strong pull to still have sex with multiple women. In that case, the woman in question is not fulfilling your need adequately.”

@Blaximus

Thx for expounding. Do you miss the tension when you’re fucking a new girl, and you don’t know what each other are going to do and getting to know their bodies and all that? If not, do you know why? Like is it that you’re having more “meaningful” sex with the wife or something?

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ My Brother Andy ” Thx for expounding. Do you miss the tension when you’re fucking a new girl, and you don’t know what each other are going to do and getting to know their bodies and all that? If not, do you know why? Like is it that you’re having more “meaningful” sex with the wife or something?” Ok, 100% honest, real talk. I don’t miss the kind of sexual tension you mention. I am geared more towards true intimacy. I’ve had intimacy with chicks I’ve met and screwed off and on, but imo intimacy is something that builds… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Guest

“The Talk” LOL

Don’t be fooled. “The Talk” is nothing more than a bullshit ultimatum. “The Talk” is always a threat no matter how subtly implied. It is blackmail. Never accept blackmail. Doing so is subjection. Do not sell your soul to any whore.

Accept nothing less than 100% allegiance to you.

Adam
Guest

I get this question a lot and for a lot of hard-line guys, even the best thing a married man (or LTR man) can say will always sound like he found a unicorn. I get this a lot as well and I never know what to say as my wife of 8 years does indeed sound like a unicorn when I try to explain it. I was seeing three other women when she came along and one of the first things that I said to her was that I was happy for something non-exclusive for the duration of her stay,… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Rollo “Just as an MRP aside, I should also add that relationships that were predicated on The Talk set a precedence for further Talks (ultimatums) within the context of a marriage. In other words, if the Talk was effective in coercing a guy to commit or make the LTR “official” you can bet she will resort to something similar in the future when she feels entitled to other aspects of a marriage in which she controls the frame and he must qualify for her socially conditioned, self-serving definition of manhood for complying with her.” This is an important fucking point… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Rollo

You and your NPR. I never actually listen to it, but I couldn’t stand the tone in the nineties and never actually listened to it.

I’m all about talent and mastery. And mentors. And learning.

Daniel Coyle’s Talent Code and Little Book of Talent are in the same vein and probably duplicate in the info on the link book. And Robert Greene’s intro to Mastery are also appropriate for YaReally’s exhortations (and torrentable for the poor). Mastery over game is a pre-requisite for a man.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Andy TL;DR Don’t underestimate the power of wife and three kids after you made that decision ten years ago. Define who you are and what you need and don’t forget the all other sides in life. The FI doesn’t define your happiness. Define yourself, be alpha, lead and let others come along for the ride. Excuse the ramble here. I’ve been busy at work after last weeks vacation and outside of work I have been having a go out in the infield and do a lot of work. And I love my work and my adventures. Life is great, I… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

Dread is the unsought result of a man having options. Dread isn’t something a man seeks to create. Dread is created by a woman’s hypergamous desire for exclusivity with a man who has options.

KP
Guest
KP

Au contraire, Blaximus: I would say Hell Yes! Please note that “wanting to”, and “actually following through on it”, are two different things.

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ SJF Good stuff man. Real good. ” Your true purpose in life comes before your relationship and don’t use the mundane, tough, boring parenting (don’t use your family as an excuse) to be great at being a man. But don’t neglect and open your eyes to how great you can actually have a family, and be happy after burden of performance and being good at being a father and a husband.” This right here. In this society, ” Father ” and ” Husband ” have been reduced to virtual insignificance. But these descriptions hold great power in your own… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ KP

” Au contraire, Blaximus: I would say Hell Yes! Please note that “wanting to”, and “actually following through on it”, are two different things.”

He he he… I would say ” Mind your ‘wants’ because someone wants your mind ” – George Clinton

I’m cool with a degree of want. A low level want. I’m weary of wanting to the point of distraction and frustration. Always.

I listen to my mind and thoughts, but I always have the final say.

…something like that

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ Blax Since you’ve got good taste in music, this is how I’ve been feeling tonight. Don’t want to wallow in it, but it’s like a catharsis for me. Listen to it a few times and let it filter through. Tomorrow’s a new day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vZzFwR4rVE I actually have been thinking ‘sowing my wild oats’ feels forced, because the sex I’ve been having is enough for me. Strange pussy is alluring until I stop and think about going through the whole process of building a relationship again and then it just doesn’t feel like it’s worth it. Or when I remember… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ softek Wanting a relationship never means having to settle or give up your frame. Oh, and the Curtis Mayfield tune? Nice tune, but always remember that dudes wrote stuff like that from experience and they poured it out on vinyl for us to listen to, relate, and them move on. Just showing that there’s hardly anything a man can go through that another man hasn’t already gone through. ” Again….even if I wanted a monogamous relationship where me and a girl supported each other and wanted to help each other grow, and build intimacy….that can only really happen in… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

“In this society, ” Father ” and ” Husband ” have been reduced to virtual insignificance. But these descriptions hold great power in your own family when executed properly. It is wise advice to not listen to the FI soaked noise from without.” Re-iterating. Feminine Imperative is soaked with NOISE. Penetrate the noise across all relationship platforms. The masculine alpha you transcends the noise and you give because you have power and the energy the Matrix takes is insignificant. Because you are a dynamo of self generated masculine red pill aware game energy. Nobody can take too much because you… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Softek

99% of popular music since 1955 has bowed to the Feminine Imperative.
Leaning into the feminine.

Good music is a pillar of outside in dopamine influx. Just don’t look for masculine red pill awareness, Led Zeppelin, notwithstanding.

Listen to music to feel better. Don’t look to it for red pill awareness. It won’t deliver.

You need music. To feel better. Don’t believe it’s lyrics. Transcend that shit.

Smurf
Guest
Smurf

The woman is having the talk because she wants control over the situation, not because she can’t get anyone else or even considers you worth the investment. Stop overthinking it. Stop overvaluing it. JUST STOP. That also means stop talking about “maintaining frame” and actually get some damn frame. That is: conviction, a moral compass and the courage to act. Very annoying to read post after post of whiny whinefulness (not just this site either). Actually, it’s disheartening, because these ghosts are not hiding in the shadows but in plain sight, the average joe at every cubicle and corner of… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

So it is with temporary relationships — the upper hand belongs to whichever party values the relationship less. Thus you can fuck women senseless but you can never love them, or worse, have children with them, lest you lose frame. Over the next 60 years, you and your bros and your hos will die one by one, and all of North America will become Amish country. Tiny minorities who marry young, stay married with the clear understanding that the man is in charge, and have lots of children tend to become the majority in a century or so. The Amish… Read more »

Morpheus
Guest

Her friends popping out babies and then giving her shit for not having kids . . . I’m 26, she’s 30. ”

Run. The. Fuck. Away.

Unfortunately, I’ve been reading enough here to realize it is ultimately going to take something very bad happening in order to learn. Some people simply have to stick their hands in fire and get burnt even if many people are saying don’t stick your hands in fire

DisgruntledEarthling
Guest
DisgruntledEarthling

>>You want to see some top notch Blue Pill conditioning?
>Can you name a single TV show or movie on the last 40 years that is >NOT blue pill conditioning?

“Flaked” comes to mind. “Longmire” certainly.

Yet another great and timely post. And, as usual, I look forward to the commenters input.

As a former longtime older BP’er I’m about to embark in an interesting adventure with a supposedly virgin 20yo so I need to keep this post in mind and keep reminding myself on what level I’m operating on with this new girl.

May the Frame be with me.

DisgruntledEarthling
Guest
DisgruntledEarthling

@Ang Aamer
“A wise Eastern Philosopher asked a traveling American one time. “How do you keep a falling egg from breaking?”
The answer is Extend the Journey.
We are all mortal. One day all of us will stop breathing. With that stark reality firmly fixed in our minds. All men should just take a deep breath and quit taking women so seriously.”

Fuck I love you guys

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ Blax “You know you’re answering your own questions, right?” Yes, because I’m doing that on purpose. I had some understanding of the situation, but before this article, it didn’t really “click,” and I felt like I wasn’t getting the reality of what was going on. Which is why I asked the questions I did in the last thread, which were addressed in this article. I didn’t have the answers and was confused. Writing this out feels necessary to me because it’s helping me to assimilate and reinforce information that is new to me. I haven’t thought about the relationship… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“And then there is the very bad horse. It stays still until the whip penetrates its marrow.”

Because it is its own mental point of origin and rejects being the tool of another’s will.

It is your girl who holds the whip and is looking to make you an excellent horse.

Harrison Bergeron
Guest

Gillette has a new commercial where, for once, the dad isn’t a bumbling idiot. Of course it’s clearly father’s day marketing, but still good to see a little push back against every movie, show and commercial now showing dad as a clueless buffoon while mom is super woman.

I’d post this at CH as well but they’d have a conniption over the multiculturalism…

https://youtu.be/fmWRODY0ing

Andy
Guest
Andy

Guys, thx for the reply. Just want to reiterate that I’m not attacking anyone, I’m just trying to understand where your mind is at. @Blaximus “I don’t miss the kind of sexual tension you mention. I am geared more towards true intimacy.” What IS this ethereal “intimacy” we speak of? Like can you explain what it is about it that you enjoy? To me it just seems like a flowery word for familiarity. In my marriage for example, I guess you could say we’re “intimate”. We’ve been together for a while. We see each other every day for the most… Read more »

Jimmy B
Guest
Jimmy B

Smurf June 7th, 2016 at 9:57 pm The woman is having the talk because she wants control over the situation, not because she can’t get anyone else or even considers you worth the investment. Stop overthinking it. Stop overvaluing it. JUST STOP. That also means stop talking about “maintaining frame” and actually get some damn frame. That is: conviction, a moral compass and the courage to act. Very annoying to read post after post of whiny whinefulness (not just this site either). Actually, it’s disheartening, because these ghosts are not hiding in the shadows but in plain sight, the average… Read more »

walawala
Guest
walawala

I just got flaked on by a girl I’m gaming and took lit last week. She seemed keen but was constantly shit testing as you’d expect form an hb8. We’re set to meet up and she was supposed to by me a steak dinner after losing a bet we made then: Her: oh no. I totally forgot I had a class and can’t meet you. Sorrrrrrweeeeee That last part convinced me it was a shit test. She’d been sniffing out my alpha cred So the last sorrrrrweee is a indicator. I didn’t reply. The idea of chasing or negotiating is… Read more »

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“can you still make her tremble by running a finger down her body?” I have all kinds of fun rules. one of them is that everytime I see a nipple, I lick it. she trembles. every time. and it’s funny how often she makes sure those nipples appear in my field of vision. the other day I stopped by her work as it’s on one of my biking routes. I was actually on my way to meet a girl, but she didn’t know that. I pulled her out of her office and kissed her. that’s all. just a kiss. then… Read more »

Mazrim
Guest
Mazrim

Well this is extremely great timing for me to have read this post. The RN I work with just informed me my very needy male PM shift coworker told her yesterday that we need to “talk” and have a meeting today. I felt like i was just kicked in the balls. So my question is how to deal w/a male coworker who wants/has to “talk”, when I have zero interest in even pretending to care during this meeting. I keep declining to have beers w/this betamale as well and I can’t help but think this is also part of the… Read more »

redlight
Guest
redlight

@mazrim

you given no possible reason to suggest sexual exclusivity is on the table?

The Man
Guest
The Man

Fleezer – so you be fucking other women then. Does wifey generally know you do this? Does she care? How do you know she cares/doesn’t care? How do you know whether other women you are fucking are not some guy’s girlfriend? If you just go with what the side-fuck tells you, at face value?, if so, do you consider whether you just believe out of convenience to you?, or do do some vetting? If so, how do you do the vetting without it crossing the line towards stalking type shit?

scray
Guest
scray

@blax ‘I am a huge believer in men sowing their wild oats. ‘ hard for me to ever believe that the oats are ever truly sewn. @all while i don’t mind the women-as-children/puppies narrative here wrt game ‘utility,’ i don’t agree with it… (obv I think it’s sexist but it’s stronger than nothing)….i think they are boundary pushers and line-steppers. Habitual line-steppers… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9yQq4NxyOE you can’t ever give an inch. that’s it, that’s all. 3 rules to always DHV 1) control your environment; failing that 2) walking away completely if 1) isn’t an option 3) there are no fuck-ups; never apologize… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

“they are boundary pushers and line-steppers” –

this is how young children act.

kfg
Guest
kfg

“….i think they are boundary pushers and line-steppers. Habitual line-steppers…”

Just like children and puppies.

The Man
Guest
The Man

Softek – I haven’t followed everything you have said, (especially going back a awhile), but I am starting to get the following from what you have recently written: – First off it’s not at all clear that your woman is BPD. Best you determine that (cause if true – then – it just is not gonna turn out good – pretty much no matter what). Since as you have already shared, you got some mental issues of your own, you may not be the best person to make that determination though. Crazy how this works huh? – She not talking… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

““they are boundary pushers and line-steppers” – this is how young children act.” Yeah… When you’re in the thick of it and you’re dealing with both… It’s hard to really distinguish the difference in behavior. Sometimes it’s the exact same behavior at the same time. lol. I shit you not… I don’t know how you can NOT come to the conclusion that as men we’re simply more mature. “Shit, if I gotta be 80 years old and STILL keep up a front like I’m invincible when I’m hunched over a cane so my wife following me around nagging me won’t… Read more »

scray
Guest
scray

@sentient@kfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yXDpXJbLbM while it is like them, the reasons are different and other kinds of people push boundaries natural alphas push boundaries too — are they little kids? These groups of people push it for different reasons. Children are just curious. Puppies don’t even know they’re pushing boundaries. Women push boundaries to test your strength, because that is something they need to have. this difference in viewpoint has advantages at the margin. treating them like children all the time actually will cause you to invest too much: we like kids, they are blameless, etc. if i just treat her as… Read more »

scray
Guest
scray

@andy ‘It’s hard to really distinguish the difference in behavior’ that doesn’t mean there isn’t a difference. children must be policed and must have rules placed upon them. like I said, this viewpoint is MUCH BETTER wrt to game utility than, idk…anything blue pill. however, I don’t need to force any rules on her. I don’t give a shit what she does. I have my rules for myself and that’s it. She doesn’t need to follow them and I don’t care if she does. ‘I don’t know how you can NOT come to the conclusion that as men we’re simply… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

“go become a rockstar.
tell me how you start behaving.
you will start behaving more like a woman does — you will be irrational, arbitrary, and impulsive. why? because you can.”

I really don’t think I would.

“Women push boundaries to test your strength, because that is something they need to have.”

Exactly. I don’t need anyone’s strength. And I wouldn’t if I was a rockstar.

scray
Guest
scray

@andy

‘I really don’t think I would.’

lol you don’t think having the world at your fingertips no questions asked would radically change your behavior?

the entire saying about power corrupting is referring to this EXACT phenomenon….

‘Exactly. I don’t need anyone’s strength. And I wouldn’t if I was a rockstar.’

once again:

These groups of people push it for different reasons

The Man
Guest
The Man

Andy – that old couple – I saw that growing up because back then around me there were lotsa old people around that were married for a long long time. Some of these couples were crotchety and cranky (cause getting old tends to to that to you), but in a mean-spirited way. Like they weren’t just playing with the themes of their current plight, but were fucking serious about their selfish shit. Fucking ugly ass old people. Went thru life and didn’t learn nuthin. Fuck them. Then there were other crotchety and cranky old people (cause getting old tends to… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

” Children are just curious. ”

LOL…

Andy
Guest
Andy

“These groups of people push it for different reasons”

Okay. Girls need strength. Not much to argue about there. I think it’s funny to compare them to dogs. So I’ll probably keep doing it. It’s about where it’s COMING FROM maaaaannnnn… 😉

kfg
Guest
kfg

Women, children and puppies are habitual boundary pushers because:

1) They need protection and provisioning.
2) They need to find their place in the social hierarchy.
3) They can.

Alpha males push boundaries because:

1) They need to protect and provide.
2) They need to establish the social hierarchy.
3) They can.

The boundaries they push are different.

This is relevant to what Dalrock is writing about right now.

Lindberg pushed the boundaries of what could be done in aviation.
Earhart followed, pushing the boundaries of what women could do, as the passenger in a male piloted plane.

The Man
Guest
The Man

“if i just treat her as some tempest with agency and let her do as she pleases while holding my boundaries solid, this is very high value. scray” Yeah – that’s the way I see it. Like what other choice do you have unless you want to believe some BS about women’s innate inferiority wrt to ontological capacity? If a guy can’t see that, that woman’s normative inferiority wrt ontological capacity, is BS – he really be just so stupid then, just a fucking idiot imo. He may have as his own a particular woman that actually has lower ontological… Read more »

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