The Talk

the_talk

Softek has had the almost predictable move for The Talk from his current (I believe BPD) “girlfriend”. Just to clarify a few things here before I dig into Softek’s questions I think it’s necessary to define what “The Talk” is. Generally, there comes a point with a  particular plate you’re spinning when a woman believe it’s within her feminine entitlements to force the issue of exclusivity upon a man. I’ve written several foundational posts about non-exclusivity and the reasons men should opt for (Plate Theory) and I’ve also covered The Talk from practical considerations in Ultimatums, but feminized pop-culture has made what essentially amounts to a Frame shift into a life event.

The Talk is literally the defining of a relationship, and in a feminine-primary social order that defining power is presumed to always reside with a woman according to her “needs”. I should also add here that as men have become more feminized and uncomfortable in describing themselves as masculine, the feminine security need for a confirmed relationship status puts these men into the feminine role of initiating The Talk themselves. There are few grosser indications of a Beta / Blue Pill mental point of origin and a self-confirming lack of options than a man negotiating for exclusivity by formalizing it with a feminized relationship event.

What does Negotiated Desire mean for a relationship when a woman has resorted to it?

They’re powerless, yes, they feel helpless, yes.

But what does this mean for their perception of the man they’re trying to Negotiate for?

Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness. Let me be clear before I get the standard, “you need to be a Man and set boundaries with her” retort – as with all things for men, it is better to demonstrate than to explicate.

However, in this instance, we have a woman issuing the ultimatum and the sense of powerlessness comes into contrast. The very act of having The Talk is a negotiation of desire. The medium is the message. We can separate a woman’s entitlement to an “official” relationship with it, but the fact that a formal talk would be necessary to legitimize it is the message she ignores or hopes you won’t recognize  – it’s a negotiated obligation, not a genuine desire.

Making a euphemism out of this ultimatum by calling The Talk and dancing around the want for a long term security is a form of Buffer for women. And as with all Buffers, the intent is to lessen the impact of rejection by preemptively buffering the seriousness of it should it come to that.

There are a few reasons women will move for something like The Talk. First and foremost is the Hypergamic need for certainty. When a woman presses for exclusivity with a man she tips her hand in the Hypergamic scheme of things. In this instance the root message is twofold – she perceives you as high enough value to seek some kind of exclusive permanency and / or she acknowledges (or is beginning to) that her capacity to attract other prospective men is depreciating. Women with greater sexual market options and a commensurate self-impression rarely push for this relationship formality.

Another reason for The Talk is that women, on some level of consciousness, seek to alleviate the competition anxiety that comes with making an emotional investment in a man she perceives is 1-2 steps above her own sexual market value. A passive form of Dread almost certainly plays a role in the prompt to formalize an LTR, however, what’s prompting that Dread can range from an emotional investment based on a genuine desire to the pragmatic necessity to settle on a guy who meets her security needs in contrast to her ability to attract a better prospect.

As women enter the Epiphany Phase the need for a Talk becomes more urgent. As a woman’s attractiveness wanes Hypergamy cannot afford uncertainty or the risk of a loss of emotional investment. This is yet one more reason women tend to opt for dutiful Betas during the Epiphany Phase. Unattached higher SMV men entering their peak SMV phase are less inclined to look for or agree to, exclusivity when they have more available sexual options. Blue Pill men, unused to a sudden interest from women, are usually eager to formalize on exclusivity irrespective of a woman’s sexual history or her necessitous reasonings for exclusivity.

Have they lost respect for him? What is Negotiated Desire, on the woman’s part, indicative of in the relationship?

Again, this is somewhat subjective and depends on the man and woman’s conditions. As I mentioned above, the push for exclusivity on her part is prompted from necessity or Hypergamous anxiety. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated and it’s important to consider that this is equally true when it’s women doing the negotiating. Blue Pill conditioning has acculturated generations of women to expect that a man formalizing monogamy with her is not just her right, but that men will understand and accept that it is “the right thing to do” if he want’s to be accounted as a man.

We have an entire fem-centric world of women and men reinforcing this male-shame narrative in every branch of society – from church to popular media, you’re not a “man” if you so much as question your role in an exclusivity founded on a woman’s correct need of it.

This presents an interesting conflict for women. Women want men who just get it, but the necessity of petitioning a man for The Talk in the first place conflicts with the organicness of his understanding of women. Pushy, loud-mouthed, outspoken women raised on the Fempowerment narrative are often the most insecure in respect to this conflict. On one hand the narrative has bred her to expect a man to be her-equal-who’s-better-than-her-equal and ‘man up’ and formalize on his own. On the other hand, when he doesn’t, the anxiety that comes with the countdown to her Wall pushes her to force his compliance or to provide her own security for herself.

Now imagine this scenario with an Empowered Woman® dealing with the Beta in Waiting who represents her only viable LTR option. Yes, she may have lost respect for him, but her situation frustratingly compels her to force the issue of exclusivity with a guy who doesn’t get it.

Is it a sign of a failed relationship?

I don’t have any other experience, so my base assumption is that ALL WOMEN will push for commitment eventually, and want to pressure you into it, and ‘make things official.’

What does this mean for the health of the relationship?

Should it just end?

The necessity of a Talk in the first place puts this assessment into doubt. Women who don’t eventually push for commitment understand the nature of that relationship is temporary or there really is no potential, so there won’t be a Talk. The problem I see with making this formality something overtly public is that it has the opposite effect of qualifying what may be genuine desire without it. When The Talk enters into out popular consciousness it then becomes yet another ‘typical male’ fault.

Men become infantilized for not understanding women’s correctness in wanting a formalized declaration of monogamy. Once that infantilization becomes the accepted truism for women, what might’ve been a very good pairing of a man and a woman based on an organic genuine desire, turns into an obligation on his part to convince her that he’s not a child by living above that truism. The relationship becomes less about the genuine interest between the two and more about satisfying the “official” nature of it among men and women plugged into a Blue Pill social conditioning.

Should it just end at that point? If a man’s first act of a coerced monogamy is his capitulating to what amounts to a socially mandated ultimatum I think the woman he surrendered to will subconsciously lose the respect she had for him while they were “undocumented lovers.”

In a case like Rollo’s, or any other married guy here:

How did it happen? How do you get married without Negotiated Desire?

Is it IMPOSSIBLE, and it’s just a matter of minimizing the degree of Negotiation?

Same with having an official girlfriend. When you COMMIT even on the level of a ‘steady girlfriend,’ isn’t that Negotiating Desire by default?

I get this question a lot and for a lot of hard-line guys, even the best thing a married man (or LTR man) can say will always sound like he found a unicorn. You have to understand in my case the last woman I’d been in a formal LTR with before my wife was the BPD I described in the Two Guitars post. I had no intention of getting into an LTR at the time and for a long while, Mrs. Tomassi was one of four plates I was spinning at the time. All of this was above board and we dated non-exclusively for the first 3-4 months.

I began with a rock solid Frame at this time not because I was focused on establishing it, but because I had three other women in rotation and I was entirely indifferent to any idea of exclusivity with any of them. Of those four, Mrs. T was hottest and funnest in and out of bed so I gravitated to seeing her more regularly. I also appreciated her from the new perspective I had in contrast to the psychotic mess my BPD had been. She expected me to be conventionally masculine and I was already filling that role by default because I had a new outlook on women as a result of all that.

We never had a Talk when it came to exclusivity; she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend. She literally asked to be part of my world during that brief conversation. I’ve had the Frame from the moment we started non-exclusively to where we are now 20 years later.

I’ll say it again, don’t use my example as some model for your own life, but there needs to be an organic flow to how you enter into any LTR.

It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized. As I stated in the beginning, frame will be fluid and conditions will influence the balance, but the overall theme of your relationship needs to be led and molded by you. Even very influential, professional, intellectualizing women still crave the right man to establish his frame in her life. They may fight it bitterly, but ultimately it’s what will make for the best healthy balance she can achieve. There’s a growing undercurrent of mid-life women questioning and regretting their past decisions to remain single into spinsterhood. And for all their late game rationalizations, the one thing they still simply refuse to accept is acknowledging that a man’s frame, the frame their “fierce independence” wouldn’t allow for, was exactly the salve their egos so desperately wants now later in life.

Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.

590 comments

  1. “Once that becomes the accepted truism for women what might’ve been a very good pairing of a man and a woman based on an organic genuine desire”

  2. Every time you give up freedom you empower someone/something.
    So I believe there are two sides to the frame of exclusive relationship. First Why do you give up freedom and second Where goes the power.

    You covered the “Why” part in great detail as always. It boils down to: extrinsic Whys will get you into trouble, intrinsic ones are OK.
    Where goes the power however is very subtle in this essay. Of course there are other posts that cover this topic. Again it boils down to: she is not only incapable of managing the power you give her, she will resent you for giving her such power.

    Great work Rollo.

  3. Ahhh fuck it.
    I am staying a Bachelor with the occasional sex mongering trip to South East Asia.
    It works out much cheaper in the end as well.

  4. Every relationship has a dom and a sub, so you must choose:

    Your frame, her frame, or no frame (= no relationship).

  5. Rollo, a post on the Brock Turner case? The light sentence indicates the judge thinks the guy is not guilty, which is exactly how I feel, but the femcentric media are going nuts, with every hairy armpit feminazi having all their bullshit about “rape culture” in College plasted all over the web.

  6. Well said Mr T, she enters into your reality not the other way round. I agree with this concept 100%

    I have a question, my wife in my estimation operates mostly in my frame, I am in better shape than her, have just completed a Batchelor’s Degree in Business & Finance and at some stage want to work abroad. She say she won’t (family etc). Do you think if I increased my value she would organically want to be part of my frame so she simply moves with me wherever?

    Is it possible?

    My RP understanding is that a man who’s frame women want to be exist within are sought out so much by women that geographical location etc are not even an afterthought.

    It would be interesting to know your thoughts.

    Best Regards

    D Man!!

  7. So… a man literally cannot win once it gets to this point?

    If you “just get it” and ask her for (or offer) sexual exclusivity, you are signalling lower status to her by entertaining the notion of bargaining, that your frame is negotiable. If she accepts, you have reduced your own power by frame, and she will esteem you less. Or worse, she rejects your offer of it. (OK, “next”.)

    If she has to be the one to force the issue, because you don’t “just get it”, and rather than her being eternally grateful for just having another day you bang her, she feels confident enough that she has sufficiently reduced your frame (for which she’ll resent you late) by getting this concession from you. Rather than tingles, she wants provisioning, and thinks you are now weak enough to concede it to her.

    There really is no negotiating desire. Much like giving an ultimatum, once you have reached the point of even just considering the need for one, the jig is up.

    And I’m beginning to think that using Dread is little more than an unspoken ultimatum, but an ultimatum nonetheless. (Not all communication has to be in the feminine, spoken form.) And then it is not desire keeping her compliant, but her fear of obvious consequences.

  8. “And I’m beginning to think that using Dread is little more than an unspoken ultimatum, but an ultimatum nonetheless.”

    I would say, that Dread comes from Options…and an Ultimatum is most of the time a spoken Word but with absent Options. And thinking so, isnt “fear” the Fuel for her desire?

  9. PS: Great Post Rollo.

    I noticed, that your Ideas, espacially the ones between the lines, keep me thinking for hours and are bringing me deeper down the rabbit hole.

    Every Day some new Layer to my life for nearly two years, since i am started reading here.

    Thanks a lot for saving my life.

  10. I guess I don’t see it. The point is not The Talk, The Talk will happen nevertheless.

    “she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend.”

    She did The Talk, but in a submissive way, since you had the Frame. The point here is you must accept exclusivity on your terms, even if she comes up with it. And by her phrasing you see that she knows that the ball is all in your court, she is not assuming in any way that you MUST accept it, it is not a demand, it is a request.

    In my case, I brought up exclusivity in my relationship with my girlfriend. Basing myself on Catholic values, I brought it up as preparation for marriage. I made it clear that I was imposing it on myself, as I thought it is the best course of action for someone wanting to marry. I wasn’t taking it as a burden, for me, it is a necessary step.

    See that in every reasoning above I come from my own mental point of origin. I’m not acknowledging a demand from her or anything, even if I came up with The Talk, as Rollo put above that that is a feminized move.

  11. @Mineter: maybe “active” dread is kind of an unspoken ultimatum, but soft or passive dread is not.

    Soft dread is having the ability or power of getting sex from other women -and she knowing you have it.

    That is quite different from telling her you have that power (which may be false or even if true, she may not believe you) AND threaten to use it – that would be an ultimatum. So if you actively flirt in front of an LTR/wife just to show her (active dread) it kind of is threatening to use it, but the dread that Rollo and the Married Red Pill reddit advocates for isn’t that kind of dread.

  12. Agree and amplify with a bi-partisan FEATAMA review..
    Finances, Education, Abilities, Training, Aptitudes, Medical, Ambitions
    “Friday at 2:00 suit you? Bring pen and paper.”

  13. “We never had a Talk when it came to exclusivity; she simply said that she didn’t like the thought of me banging other women and asked me if she could be my girlfriend. She literally asked to be part of my world during that brief conversation.”

    sounds familiar.

    in my case she was 2,000 miles away. we had spent only three weeks together. she called me one day and said she was sick of being hit on and wondered if she could just say that she was my girlfriend but it didn’t have to actually be the case. I said sure.

    she moved to be with me. it wasn’t “official” until six months later. actually, it was never “official” as there was never any “talk”. she never asked me to be monogamous. she never really asked me to do anything. she just wanted to be with me and have fun.

    this was a legit hb8, a working stripper by my suggestion and a girl who couldn’t legally walk into a bar giving up all her options by choice while at the same time asking nothing of me except to spend time with her and fuck her.

    that is the girl you marry. anything less than full devotion without having to mention it means something is being negotiated.

    and there are no unicorns, so awalt means every woman will do this if you’re triggering her hypergamy to the max.

    great post. knowledge is power. TRM combined with ya’s archives is fucking gold.

  14. @SJB: the funny thing is that the same people that will point things like that to play up women as victims, can at the same time claim women are functionally the same (psychologically) as men.

    Granted it would be possible in theory that this huge difference in the likelihood of suffering from anxiety could be due exclusively to external factors. In practice that is highly unlikely.

    Probably there are studies that can rule the difference being exclusively external, by testing men and women with similar external factors. The article mentioned different geographical regions, if women are consistently higher anxiety across different cultures that would be a strong indication of internal factors.

  15. Speaking as someone who has been consistently dating for the last 30+ years, the problem is that 20 years ago it was possible to find the rare woman who you could settle down with and have a long and happy marriage with as long as you held frame. I dated a couple of these unicorns back in the 90s but, not being a natural and being thorouhly unaware of game, I wasn’t able to make either of them work out. But now I think these unicorns–already rare back in 1995–simply don’t exist anymore; the Feminine Imperative narrative is simply too culturally dominant.

  16. Insightful as always.

    Makes we wonder though what the “talk” was like for our perennial troll(s).

  17. @IAS: I did not obtain the full paper but would guess that the sex difference is kept at the highest level aggregate — kind of like how “young adults” are a group; a Venn diagram of that group by sex would probably show a majority of women (unmarried, almost at the wall).

  18. “As women enter the Epiphany Phase the need for a Talk becomes more urgent. As a woman’s attractiveness wanes Hypergamy cannot afford uncertainty or the risk of a loss of emotional investment. ”

    in her, by the man… which pings BPs as him building ‘relationship equity’ in her…

    and at base ‘the Talk’ is a major shit test… you fail by accepting her frame and ‘having’ the Talk…

    “Pushy, loud-mouthed, outspoken women raised on the Fempowerment narrative are often the most insecure in respect to this conflict.”

    bc they have much lower actual SMV than their egalitarian value set predicts that they should have…with the corresponding cog dissonance (anxiety)… which ‘the Talk’ is trying to resolve…

    “If a man’s first act of a coerced monogamy is his capitulating to what amounts to a socially mandated ultimatum I think the woman he surrendered to will subconsciously lose the respect she had for him while they were “undocumented lovers.””

    ‘first is worst’…lol… bc there is no ‘going back to alpha’…

    but first act…second act… ANY act… and ‘subconscious’ will become ‘overt’ (not the same as ‘conscious’) soon enough…

    “She literally asked to be part of my world during that brief conversation. I’ve had the Frame from the moment we started non-exclusively to where we are now 20 years later.”

    props on that btw… even with RP awareness AND solid game that’s still a pretty good run…

    “I’ll say it again, don’t use my example as some model for your own life, but there needs to be an organic flow to how you enter into any LTR.”

    just to point this out (bc i know you were aiming this idea at men getting into new relationships)… just bc you are actually IN a LTR already… and having either entered that relationship organically as a beta… or became beta after the LTR was started (including relationships that have had ‘the Talk’)… and are now getting RP awareness… does NOT mean that you are stuck there in THAT frame. you CAN turn things around (ask me how i know…lol)… and the ideas here (as well as the commenters’ advice…lol) can help you do that…

    good luck!

  19. This doesn’t really have anything directly to do with “The Talk” but I wanted to throw this out there anyway. I recently came upon a new Netflix series titled, “Kevin from Work”. My girlfriend and I were in for the evening and looking for something entertaining. The premise seemed like it might offer some humorous situations from a beta chasing his Oneitis so I started the first episode.

    I was wrong… so wrong. It wasn’t funny at all. It was probably the most painfully beta femcentric thing I have ever seen. It’s like they took every beta cliche and crammed it into a pilot episode. The main character, Kevin, is a textbook example of how not to act with women. His Oneitis is, of course, currently in an LTR with an Alpha (predictably portrayed as “not good enough for her” and obviously mentally deficient). But… as expected, at the end of the episode, you find that after the beta’s confession of undying love for his Oneitis, there is hope that if he can just “be himself” for long enough and continue to facilitate her existence, he just might have a shot with her.

    You want to see some top notch Blue Pill conditioning? Then check that shit out. I promise you won’t be disappointed.

  20. @rollo

    do you want small typo fixes, such as “This present an interesting conflict for women”, “This presents…”

  21. >You want to see some top notch Blue Pill conditioning?

    Can you name a single TV show or movie on the last 40 years that is NOT blue pill conditioning? From Disney Princesses to Eat Pray Love to every single movie.

    I saw a movie last week and the starlet was dating a gruff Middle Eastern man. She left him when he ordered for her! Then she went back to the oneitis man- he of the pillow arms and soft voice- who listened to her, held her, and told her how much he loved her! He also asked her what HE should order. So OF COURSE he wins the girl in he end!

    Yahhh! Just be yourself!

  22. Just as an MRP aside, I should also add that relationships that were predicated on The Talk set a precedence for further Talks (ultimatums) within the context of a marriage.

    In other words, if the Talk was effective in coercing a guy to commit or make the LTR “official” you can bet she will resort to something similar in the future when she feels entitled to other aspects of a marriage in which she controls the frame and he must qualify for her socially conditioned, self-serving definition of manhood for complying with her.

  23. Gentlemen, you will establish frame in any monogamous relationship you have. You will enter her reality or she will enter yours.

    The most fascinating thing of all this is the underlying supposition that what is referred to as “monogamy” is some sort of moral construct that’s driven by a moral standard coming out of Christianity. It isn’t. Yes, the church teaches this and claims it’s from God, but it isn’t and they can’t support it because that’s not what the Bible says.

    I do not speak of lesser arrangements, but to formalize a “monogamous” relationship as marriage is to enter HER frame, by definition, because marriage was not designed to be and was never intended to be an exclusive arrangement on the part of the man.

    The original standard for marriage, which comes out of Genesis 2:24 is that the man gives permanent but non-exclusive commitment to the woman and in return she gives permanent and exclusive commitment to him. Genesis 2:24 is the law of marriage and in the first 3 words it establishes (“for this reason”) that it exists to implement the first command to mankind, “be fruitful and multiply.” In other words, it’s all about having children and children are to be created and reared within this container called marriage, which is to be a permanent union.

    That standard of “permanent but not exclusive” built the dread in from the beginning. To put it in business terms, the wife is NOT being given a monopoly franchise on her husband. The threat of competition (he has the right to bring in a competitor) is explicit and provides the woman with both accountability and motivation to hold herself accountable.

    At a fundamental level, “the talk” is designed to negotiate a position in which the man give up his *right* to have other plates, or on a more formal level, other wives. It can be looked on as negotiated desire, but in reality it’s the woman negotiating a position of monopoly. So much better if she can get the man to do it for her and think that he is getting a good deal (he isn’t).

    I think the only point I really disagree with Rollo on is his position that hypergamy is an evolutionary development, which I see it as specifically inflicted on women by God. This is found at Genesis 3:16 and if one reads the story one sees that Eve, who was the greatest woman ever (literally, there has never been another woman like Eve), at the top of her game (a world without sin, living in paradise, no work, no kids, etc.) could not handle following one simple rule. What does one do with someone who does not have the capacity to obey the one rule they have? They’re declared incompetent and a guardian is appointed. Which is what God did, but He also gave women a desire for a guardian saying “your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.”

    So, not only did God appoint a guardian but He gave her a desire for a guardian, which is where hypergamy came from. Required to have a man rule over her, her desire is for a man who is fit to rule over her. Women rebel against this and they hate this, but put the man who is truly fit to rule in front of them, the attraction point is triggered and suddenly they are willing to submit to him. That doesn’t mean they stop testing him in order to know he’s fit to rule her and the corollary to the command (for the men) is maintain their fitness to rule over her.

    This is why I see “the talk” as the ultimate shit test, because monogamy is not a righteous moral standard, it’s a BS arrangement that gives her a monopoly on him that she has no right to, in which she has no accountability and no motivation to please him- especially if there are children involved. Anybody with eyes to see has already seen that women will destroy their family and injure their children when answering the siren call of hypergamy.

    There are two problems with this situation today. First is that women have achieved sufficient political power to change laws and use the police power of the state to destroy men who choose this option of monogamous marriage. Second, and probably more important, is that men have this idea that something less than *monogamy* is something less than a moral arrangement. While things can be done to mitigate the first problem, it’s the second problem that presents the worst of the trap.

    A decision to go from spinning plates to a monogamous marriage is not the correct moral decision because this is one giant bait and switch. The moral issue is the permanence, not the exclusivity. The idea is that marriage (which is now defined as an exclusive relationship) is more “moral” than any other arrangement because of exclusivity is complete and utter bullshit. Marriage as a permanent arrangement in order to have the proper container in which to bring children into this world and rear them to adulthood IS the correct moral arrangement, but exclusivity by the man isn’t part of that. The idea that marriage MUST BE exclusive is NOT a moral requirement because that is contrary to the standard for marriage that God set up in the first place.

    Yet, women use the idea that exclusiveness is somehow moral and anything less is immoral in order to trap men in a situation in which they are well and truly screwed. And when I suggest to the Christian community that under certain conditions the Bible doesn’t actually prohibit banging women outside the bounds of marriage… they go nuts. Mostly because when they go to the Bible to try and refute me, they can’t. And that blows their minds and leaves nothing but the ad hominem, which is their go-to strategy.

    The simplest way I can explain this is both problems can be solved by the man being attractive enough (fit to rule) that he can garner the attraction of multiple women, understanding what the true situation is and holding frame. He is not under any requirement to choose only one if he wants a permanent arrangement, although within the current legal environment if he chooses only one he cannot enforce his option of adding another at a later date (avoiding formal marriage in a LTR that involves children invites the state to “deem” the LTR to be a marriage and proceed with a divorce-rape).

    If he chooses two or more (polygyny) and formalizes the arrangement with a written contract he has moved his arrangement way beyond the bounds of what the courts can handle because his arrangement cannot be recognized as a marriage. If he has children by all the wives, he has placed himself in a position in which as long as he upholds his end of things (maintains frame and attractiveness) there is very little that can be done to wreck his marriage. If any of the women want out they cannot be prevented from leaving, but he will be in a far stronger position to get custody of the children. This arrangement places all the incentives on staying in the relationship and penalizes leaving, which then devolves to his attractiveness. Women don’t tend to leave a relationship in which they’re attracted to their man.

    Nobody likes this because it calls into question the fundamental moral issue of exclusivity, denies women the use of the police power of the state and places the advantages squarely with the man. Men who believe they are doing well to just be able to garner the attraction of a single woman fear this because they think it means they would be shoved out without a mate. Women use that fear to their advantage. Christians don’t like this because it questions their idea of morality at a very deep level and while they don’t have a leg to stand on, women use this. Worshipers of the state hate this because it does an end-run around the entire system set up to reward women by destroying men.

    The bottom line is the standard for marriage that God gave to mankind is permanent but non-exclusive on the part of the man, permanent and exclusive on the part of the woman. Because men and women are not equal. Why the church decided to throw out God’s standard for marriage 1500 years ago and replace it with “monogamy” is a subject on which books could be written, but it doesn’t matter at this point. The point is there is no moral requirement for exclusivity in marriage by the man, only permanent commitment. Everything after that is details.

  24. “Can you name a single TV show or movie on the last 40 years that is NOT blue pill conditioning?”

    Chinatown just misses the cutoff.

    The Ninth Gate, Fatal Attraction, Basic Instinct, Last Man Standing and Miller’s Crossing all make it. All play the FI upfront as a destructive force in men’s lives.

    From my perennial list, The 13th Warrior and the Burt Reynolds Heat.

    Reynolds plays a fatally flawed, aging and cynical ex merc reduced to bodyguarding in Vegas, who gets sucked into white knighting, cynically knowing he’s doing so, but along the way clues in a Vox Day Omega, man crush orbiter.

    Remade by Jason Statham as Wild Card for 2015, I’d avoid this one, as although it is the superior production, it’s totally ruined by Jason Statham playing Jason Statham.

  25. @ Rollo

    Thank you for the expert analysis. Those questions I asked were eating away at me and this is helping me a lot, and I’m sure it will help more as I process the information on a deeper level.

    Some things she’s said that support your points:

    1) “Make things right and make me your girlfriend”

    2) “I feel like I’m being rejected every single day” (because of my ignoring her pleas for commitment)

    3) “I can’t deal with this constant rejection”

    The “Make things right” stuck out to me the most. As if having a relationship based on organic desire, without a label, is “wrong.”

    (She has also said she doesn’t like the idea of me banging other women, and has asked me to make her my girlfriend….part of the tragedy here is I think I simply don’t have the experience to handle this, or to have a committed girlfriend, as I don’t feel I can make a decision based on 100% genuine desire without having the option to fulfill other desires. Like if I was seeing 3 or 4 other girls and naturally wanted to spend more time with her and liked her the best of all of them, that would be different)

    Your explanation was crystal clear and the sad reality is we’re so steeped in the FI that women have been conditioned to believe that their Hypergamous desires are actually morally superior, or the moral standard for behavior and decisions in relationships.

    This is probably why she’s also said one time that it’s “like I’m abusing her,” and has even accused me once of getting some kind of sadistic pleasure out of ignoring her pleas for commitment (I lol’d when she told me that, like…..seriously? Oh yeah, I’m loving this, it’s what I live for….)

    Next point:

    She usually only says things like this after she’s gotten some major social input reinforcing her Hypergamy-based insecurities.

    For example:

    When one of her friends asked her if she ever wanted to have kids, why she was going out with me when I wasn’t “making it official.” When her best friend was gloating about her new “official boyfriend” and how he “committed” to her only after a couple months, and was rubbing it in her face and bragging about it because she knew about my situation with her and my not committing to her.

    The social reinforcement of her anxiety/insecurity is tremendous. Other women, including women in her family and female friends, giving her shit about seeing me and my not committing, and re-instating insecurities that she needs to find a guy who will lock her down and commit to her and give her kids and a home, etc.

    Her friends popping out babies and then giving her shit for not having kids (even though these friends who’ve had babies might have 3 or 4 kids, all by different fathers, and none of them are well taken care of…..what was that about moral high grounds, again? She recognizes how they’re in no place to criticize her and has accused them of being irresponsible fuckups, but still feels the sting and the insecurity just the same)

    All it takes is one comment, or someone casually referring to her as my girlfriend (and her remembering I’ve never ‘officially committed’ to her), to send her over the edge into extreme Hypergamy-based insecurity, to the point where she feels sick and depressed and upset.

    It will visibly throw her off. It seems like for every outburst she has over this, there was some story she told me that day, or the day before, about some friend/family member questioning her relationship with me, or having read some article online about “why guys don’t commit,” or her friends taking a moral high ground and making her feel like she SHOULD feel insecure, etc.

    Then again, there’s simply the hard-wired Hypergamy, and her self-awareness that she’s getting older and is not going to have the same potential to find a partner that she had when she was younger.

    One of the hardest things about this relationship has been the age difference. I’m 26, she’s 30. As far as SMV and sexual trajectories go, that’s a huge fucking difference. Even from the very beginning I knew this would be a problem, but I had no idea what I was getting myself into, thought I was immune to getting emotionally attached, etc. But start seeing a girl every single day and that’s inevitable.

    I was too desperate and too excited to finally experience sex and affection and all this stuff I’d missed out on that there was no way in hell I could hold to seeing her once a week, or keeping things more casual.

    Part of why I’ve been holding frame in that one area – not giving in to her desires and agreeing upon monogamy with her – is knowing that as soon as I do that, whatever we used to have will be tainted.

    Putting all the BS aside, almost 100% of the time we’re together in-person, things go well, or I can turn things around, even if there’s turbulence for a while. Most (not 100%, but close) of the pressuring and complaints have been over the phone and through text messages.

    So far, I have ALWAYS felt like whenever she sees me, it’s because she wants to. Her mood always lifts up. Every single time I see her it’s like Christmas Day because she gets so excited. And to this point, even though there can be BS later, I’m always happy to see her too. She has never turned me down for sex one time, and every single time we have sex it’s basically porn-star level. I might not have much real life experience, but I’ve seen a ton of porn, and I can’t imagine a woman being more into sex with me than she’s been.

    Things like showing up at her house unexpected when I know she’s been really stressed out have a HUGE impact on her. Like she will run up to me and hug me and do that girly scream thing.

    Whenever I sleep over at her place she always starts the day by saying something along the lines of “waking up next to you is the best thing in the world.”

    The tragedy for me, and what’s hardest for me to face, is that I feel like the relationship HAS been based on genuine desire, but the biggest strain is twofold:

    1) Her being 4 years older than me and being in the Epiphany phase (entering early 30’s and realizing her SMV as well as her ability to bear children is declining)

    2) Me approaching my own Epiphany phase (entering late 20’s and am having the Epiphany that my SMV is rising, not declining)

    I just feel like her “Genuine Desire” is shifting. We’ve been having a lot of fun, mixed in with all the stress and BS (almost all of it based around her trying to rope me into commitment)…

    …but it’s feeling like Hypergamy is taking over slowly. The idea of never having a family is eating her alive. The need to lock down a provider, a guy who will give her kids.

    This all started when I was 25 and she was 29, go figure. This is probably about one of the most stressful relationship age gaps that can exist. If the genders were reversed? Not so much.

    But a guy just learning about RP awareness, and a girl just imagining for the first time she’s not going to be able to have kids forever, and her friends are all starting to get married and all that?

    Even with ZERO pre-existing issues on BOTH SIDES (e.g., no BPD on her part, no emotional/psychological problems on my part) I think this would be a very difficult arrangement, just because of the clashing of the SMV bell curves.

    Especially when both people are aware of their place on those SMV bell curves.

  26. “Her friends popping out babies and then giving her shit for not having kids . . . I’m 26, she’s 30. ”

    Run. The. Fuck. Away.

  27. Great timing with this post Rollo.
    My main girl of 15 months ( I only know this as she tells me ) has just thrown her first series of shit tests at me last Friday.
    At 30 she is 18 years younger than me and hb6.5/7 up to recently she has been good as gold and never shit tested me at all, I never see her more than once a week and by comments she has made she has assumed that I see other girls ( I did not confirm or deny ).
    About 3 weeks ago I decided to do the honourable thing and “have the talk” only not the version of commitment.
    I knew I was not interested in anything more serious and I also knew she saw marriage and kids in her future.
    I sat her down and told her I was happy with our thing but if she was looking for more and can find someone who wants that then she should go with that option as I don’t see another marriage or more kids in my future.
    She seemed to take it quite well and said “I’m happy with what we have babe” so all seemed good.
    Over the following 2 weeks she stayed over on the Friday evenings we had sex evening twice and morning as is usual, it was only on reflection that I realised She had not included Bj’s as was normal but the fucking was of the usual quality so I didn’t really notice at the time or think anything of it.
    Que this last weekend I knew she had a GNO scheduled so I wasn’t going to be seeing her.
    She only averages about 1 GNO per month as far as I know and most times has asked can she stay at my apartment afterwards as I live closer to the city and obviously we can fuck etc.

    The two friends, one is married 2 kids and seems ok, the other is a single slut who dates black guys exclusively and keeps getting pumped and dumped ( big surprise ! )

    Shit test one , she tells me the normal girl has pulled out and now the other girl, the slut wants to venue change from the local area to the city ( big surprise ) I know what she is looking for.
    I don’t react but decide to bring up the BJ situation from the past 2 weekends after our “talk” (this is all via text).
    I told her it was unacceptable to me and I found it strange and considered Bj’s to be a non negotiable deal breaker for me.
    Her response, and this is her exact quote ” I’m not sucking the dick of anybody I’m not in a relationship with”.

    I was actually quite impressed!
    I’m not sure if she is pushing for GF status or has decided to go feral??
    At this point I don’t care either, she will fall into line and take care of my sexual needs or she will be history.
    Maybe she has decided to take my advice and find someone to give her what she thinks she wants ?

    I have not responded and don’t intend to either, she can fall back into line or take her chances back out on the marketplace, It’s probably time for a change any ways I only kept her around for so long as she has been good fun with lots of sex and minimal drama and very low maintenance.

    Just thought I’d share this as it seemed relevant and would be interested on feedback on how I’ve handled the situation as I have only been RP for 2.5 years now but I’m getting better at internalising the more important concepts I think.

  28. “It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized.”

    And what if the man didn’t? Is it irrecoverable? OR is there a reset option – (e.g., soft dread > active dread > affair)? Regardless, this may be a sunk cost fallacy, and he could be better off putting the effort into a new relationship(s).

  29. Redpill movies – Martin Scorsese’s Casino (Sharon Stone – what a performance). I had a woman much like that in my life at one point (not the wife) – huh – gotta make you feel a bit for the Sam Rothstein character, and you know the Ginger McKenna character – what can you say – men be weak for somebody like that (live and learn).

    How about Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver (that movie got depth man – at the superficial, you may think it’s bluepill – but it’s not).

    Other redpill movies – what about Woody Allen’s Blue Jasmine – (Cate Blanchett – magnificent performance of a bluepill entitled woman in meltdown mode).

    Or what about August: Osage County (2013) – puts under the microscope the machinations of women’s status addictions, as it plays out in one family (Merle Streep – so good in this one).

    Heck – even Nebraska (2013), just laying bare the comical ugliness of human nature – very redpill.

    There are probably plenty others.

  30. @ Rollo

    “In other words, if the Talk was effective in coercing a guy to commit or make the LTR “official” you can bet she will resort to something similar in the future when she feels entitled to other aspects of a marriage in which she controls the frame and he must qualify for her socially conditioned, self-serving definition of manhood for complying with her.”

    Another reason I haven’t caved (my solution has always been to go silent, mostly because I can’t think of anything to say and don’t see any point in talking about it), has been because my thought is…

    What next? Pushing for engagement? Then marriage? Then kids? Then for me to get 3 jobs to pay for all of it? It’s a never-ending cycle. That’s why in my mind, even something most people would think of as “no big deal,” i.e., her wanting my commitment to her and to be her boyfriend…

    …is in fact a very big deal to me. Because it’s the basis for the frame of the relationship.

    And for all I know, the only reason she’s stayed around is because I haven’t caved to that. She still sees me looking at other girls but isn’t giving me as much shit as she used to about it. I haven’t really given her any reason to think that I won’t go and fuck some other girl(s).

    Will that encourage her to leave? Maybe. But I just had another epiphany:

    It helps your Outcome Independence too. Why would you want any less than Genuine Desire from a woman? If that doesn’t count, then porn would work just as well. It doesn’t because images on a computer screen can’t desire you.

    So if she ends up leaving….well, she’ll have “left” before that, because she would no longer have desire for me. A woman ‘walking out’ on you is simply a manifestation of what is already true: she has lost her Genuine Desire for you.

    Which would negate any reason to continue the relationship anyway, or to try to ‘save it’ in any way, which would just be a further attempt to negotiate desire, and just add to the emptiness and futility of it all.

    @ Artisinal Toad

    I love your stuff. Seriously.

    That quote always stuck with me. About “Your desire shall be for your husband.” That speaks volumes.

    “The bottom line is the standard for marriage that God gave to mankind is permanent but non-exclusive on the part of the man, permanent and exclusive on the part of the woman.”

    Couldn’t agree with this more. I’m not religious at all, but IMO, men and women’s innate feelings will confirm this, despite the layers and layers of social conditioning. Buried deep under there is the truth.

    @ Rollo

    If I were to say it’s natural for women to not WANT to fuck other men when they’ve found their hypergamous ideal…

    Meanwhile, men will ALWAYS want to fuck other women, even after they’ve found a partner they’re satisfied with emotionally and sexually…

    What would you say? Is that accurate?

    For all the hemming and hawing of feminism, how many women who have found a man they truly respect, truly adore, and truly perceive to be the best their Hypergamy can afford them, REALLY want to cheat, and would find fantasies of cheating arousing?

    Or is it natural for women, during that time in their cycle, to want to secure fresh new Alpha genes, and experience a desire to cheat, just like most men do when they see a young hottie in a short skirt walking by?

    Sex at Dawn seems to paint a kind of “equalist” picture, that men and women are just as likely to cheat, for different reasons, but ultimately they’re kind of the same….

    …and I’m not sure I agree with that, and am wary that that is pushing feminist propaganda.

    I don’t want to get too out into the weeds here though. One thing I’m trying to really focus on here is my relationship, and how she’s negotiating for desire, and the implications that this has.

    This is all new to me, and I’m very glad you wrote this post, as well as the past few that have come out. Second Unplugging is not easy but I’m definitely learning a lot. I’m going to read over this one until it really starts to sink in. Tough position to be in but I’m very grateful to at least have some awareness of what’s going on.

  31. I’ve posted this exchange before, but it bears repeating here.

    Pour Girl 1: “Have you ever had sex with a guy on the first night you met him?”

    Pour Girl 2: “Oh yeah, but only with guys who are relationship material. I always wait with a guy like that.”

    This is the gist of a conversation (or one like it) to bear in mind when a woman you’ve been intimate with presents you with the ultimatum that she will no longer bang you, give you a hummer, etc. until you ‘Man Up’ and make things “official”. If this is the nature of The Talk she presents you with, your response should be an automatic and irrevocable NEXT.

    Any sex you have with her after this point will be tainted with the pretext that it is a reward for your desired behavior compliance. The Beta relationship plan follows a very predictable formula:

    1. While single the sex is hot, inspired, urgent and based in a hormonal response prompted by sexual tension and anxiety.

    2. After 2-3 months the “where is this going?” doubt arises and the want for security (she’s gone through at least 2 ovulatory cycles in this time) starts to take root.

    3. The Talk occurs. She threatens to remove his prior source of reward (sex) and the reinforcer for his desired behavior if he doesn’t confirm exclusive status with her. This begins her sexual reservation with him because in confirming his exclusivity he destroys the urgency and inspiration that made sex with him so good.

    4. He abdicates and they form a living arrangement where the sexual frequency and intensity declines as a further result of her security need killing arousal and attraction to him.

    Now return to my Pour Girls’ conversation and you’ll begin to understand how you fit into this arrangement if you are deemed “relationship material”. The best solution is to NEXT a woman before or around the anticipated Talk phase.

    Understand that any woman who overtly declares she will not bang you without a confirmed monogamy status who’s had sex with you before already should be an automatic NEXT.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/23/wait-for-it/

  32. @ Rollo
    What if after the “talk” or the ultimatum and you don’t cave into the commitment, but she returns to the fold and takes care of you sexually as before.
    Surely this is establishing frame and you can decide not to next her as she has concurred to your frame ?

  33. To Softek –

    I understand from a blue pill or purple pill perspective this kind of Ultimatum would be confusing.

    But from a Red Pill perspective it pretty clear what the optimal course should be here. We always say don’t pay attention to what women say but pay attention to what they DO.

    Obviously Miss BPD was present when she stated the negotiated Ultimatum. She wants to get more serious. Cool take her to pound town and carry on.

    “What Ang just ignore her words about wanting to be exclusive?”
    Yep

    As a more mature Gent I just love all the angst concerning relationships with females. As a man who has had long term relationships go south it is easy for me to be very utilitarian about women in my life. This lovely flower of a BPD girl you have today will not be beautiful forever. AND there’s a good chance that you will not feel the same way about her in the next week or month. So why stress about it? Make love and enjoy the ride – we never know how our days are numbered. Just do it.

    She stays or goes due to her own internal logic which with a BPD girl would be inscrutable to a rational male. Why bother thinking about it?

    Think of it this way if she were the superior in the relationship do you think she would agonize over a man’s feelings of wanting to be exclusive but her being reticent and consulting the Cosmo advice forum? The answer would be NO she would not worry at all. She would drop you like the AFC that you are and hook up with a bar Alpha THAT NIGHT.

    The ultimatum is a stratagem that has the veneer of rational reasoning. But women are irrational about relationships. THEREFORE you only need to realize that it is irrational fear that is driving her to give out this ultimatum. Don’t respond rationally that is the trap. The real response is to provide comfort to keep that plate rotating. Until the effort to provide comfort outweighs either your ability to provide it.

    A wise Eastern Philosopher asked a traveling American one time. “How do you keep a falling egg from breaking?”

    The answer is Extend the Journey.

    We are all mortal. One day all of us will stop breathing. With that stark reality firmly fixed in our minds. All men should just take a deep breath and quit taking women so seriously.

  34. “This is all new to me, and I’m very glad you wrote this post, as well as the past few that have come out. Second Unplugging is not easy but I’m definitely learning a lot. I’m going to read over this one until it really starts to sink in. Tough position to be in but I’m very grateful to at least have some awareness of what’s going on.”

    “Why do my eyes hurt? You’ve never used them”

    some RP Tunney for inspiration…

  35. ” Meanwhile, men will ALWAYS want to fuck other women, even after they’ve found a partner they’re satisfied with emotionally and sexually…

    What would you say? Is that accurate?”

    Nope.

  36. …. let me expound.

    ” Meanwhile, men will ALWAYS want to fuck other women, even after they’ve found a partner they’re satisfied with emotionally and sexually…

    What would you say? Is that accurate?”

    A bunch of us commenters went round and round with this in the last thread.

    My opinion is that a man should not ever commit if he feels a strong pull to still have sex with multiple women. In that case, the woman in question is not fulfilling your need adequately.

    The operative words being ” feels a STRONG pull “. Of course, depending on the individual, a man will find other females attractive and may even think about what it would be like to have sex with them, and may even flirt to see if an IOI can be mustered here or there.

    But if a man is feeling flustered and frustrated by the presence of other sexually attractive females, and he is in a committed ltr or marriage, he has evidently made a grave mistake.

    Emphasis on ” Flustered and Frustrated “.

    I am a huge believer in men sowing their wild oats. It’s not wise to latch on to the first woman that opened her legs for you and then be ” talked ” into a commitment. You might never lose the strong attraction to having sex with multiple women. I guy has to figure that out for himself. I have friends that have been married for years, decades, that are highly distracted by ” hawt chicks “. Some have cheated and put themselves at great risk for divorce rape and the stress that men have to deal with from wandering penis syndrome. Observing how these men think, and listening to them lament, I have honestly counseled them to go forward with divorce. They are not attracted to their wives, not because their wives aren’t attractive, but because the lure of the strange is too much for them to control.

    As Ya and scray would say, they are denying themselves… in their minds. And that’s powerful enough to wreak havoc.

    2 of my friends wives are knockouts. At least HB8-9’s. One modeled earlier in life, and maintains her looks exceptionally well. But the distraction…that’s some powerful shit.

    Men must be honest within themselves.

    Why wouldn’t you be?

    Everyone is not suited for ltr’s and marriage. Do not get talked into it ever. It’s not a negotiation point.

    Chase your distractions if that’s what makes you happy.

  37. I dunno – before I was married and for dating my ex-wife as well, way back then, the way it worked for me was that when you have already got with a woman, and then continued to share time together, back then I just assumed that she would naturally focus all her sexual desire on me, however I would just soon come to know whether that was occurring or not. And If it was not – then it would be over then (back then I really couldn’t abide by that). And this wasn’t being two-faced on my part, because same applied to me, …… if I was with a woman my sexual desire was focused on her, and in the cases where this turned out not to be the case, what would happen is I would start to see defects wrt her (usually character defects), and that would turn me off (not turned off raw-sexuality-wise, but psychologically, much as thinking to myself “hey The Man – what the fuck you doing here?”). And these character flaws could even be over things not about her treatment of me per se, for instance it could be ….. like the woman believing as rightful and therefore having comfort over a lack of self-confidence instead of going on the warpath against a lack of self-confidence as something to rally against. I would then end it, before proceeding to look for any new woman (this precise “self-confidence” issue did actually occur with one girlfriend, and I did end it, and did feel pretty shitty about that) So, I found this whole dynamic rather complicated, but jeez …. not nearly as complicated as allowing for more variables to creep in than the number I was already allowing for (you know considering deeply about more than one woman at a time and such).

    So …. the whole thing was just organic for me I guess. When I proposed to my ex, I knew full well that her desire was focused on me, and that marriage is what she wanted, but she never ever laid down any kind of ultimatum over that. If she did I’m pretty sure that would have triggered the defect scanners wrt to “character flaw” and I would have got turned off. I did know that she had a very mild version of status-seeking occurring, which wasn’t too serious at all, and is common to all women in any event, but that wasn’t enough to turn me off wrt to seeing it as an irredeemable character flaw, but it sure did give me pause anyway. If she showed any more of that trait, I think it would have triggered me to end it with her too. But it turned out I was right about her …. not a whore (a sell out) for status like a lot of women (which I find disgusting), but still prone to this proclivity towards status seeking, in milder unconscious form, nevertheless (like all women). My problems with my ex that became abundantly apparent only after marriage (when we first started to live together) were about something else entirely – about her damaged self-respect and self-image, because of the cunts around that are whores (sell-outs) for status and will scapegoat others for that purpose (but that my ex, at unconscious level, was obviously mucho pissed off about, about herself, …… was not at all comfortable with this condition, and was very much on the psychic warpath against it), but given that the stimuli (sort of unbeknownst to me) was unabating, fuck that whole thing was still bad nevertheless, and was hard on me.

    Now, all this time later, the whole game is different. At this point I can’t really be as sure that I will ultimately be able to determine, as I once just naturally could, whether a woman that is into you, is solely focusing her sexual desire on you, once you get with her. And as Rollo has pointed out, ultimatums around that (negotiated desire), are no-gos for both parties, as that just kills it then.

    Perhaps I’m still jaded in this respect due to the BPD relationship I had since divorce. But I do sense the game is played differently now … like YaReally and others say …… it may be expecting too much to think you can actually find and interface with potential partners that will honor serial monogamy, with clear breaks between. So ….. feels like the current scene is actually like sex-club-lite then. If so, why not just go to a sex club, or a sex party, strip down, and just get down to non-monogamous fucking, sharing the women outright as such. I actually have some male acquaintances (and know some of their “girls”) that have done that, and suggested I get with that scene (but these guys are, otherwise pretty much drug-using low lifes, and so methinks that is the norm with this sexual demographic, so it sorta freaks me out, and you know there are certain drugs that help uninhibit the male mind to being cool with the free for all fuckfest sharing of women in real time, and I’m pretty sure these drugs are well used at these parties).

    Maybe I gotta get passed this mental block I have about not being cool with sharing. Truth be told I am not cool with that (you know …. if I am caring about the woman too, otherwise …. fucking with no caring ….. yeah …. that is something I can definitely do ….. it just about me getting my rocks off then). Don’t really know why I’m not cool with sharing when there is caring. Maybe it’s because I know it’s going to cause me some emotional drama that I just don’t want to deal with. But the emotion around this for me seems to go pretty deep. If I start caring, I don’t want to be subject to jealousy, and maybe would just prefer to end it then, if that’s on (I don’t think this is a confidence thing either, I got plenty to be confident about, and I am normally not jealous, wasn’t for my whole 20 year marriage, this is about having a reason to be jealous that is about some disrespect occurring – if a woman expects me to care, then she should see to it that she doesn’t do shit that is gonna make me wonder where her loyalties lie).

    I’m pretty sure I am still fucked up and I think this is precisely how I am fucked up. I think I am be OK with competing, best man win style and all that, if I could have some confidence that I could trust my wishes wrt not sharing would be respected after that. This just never came up in my marriage. The marriage ended with monogamy intact, and once divorced, I had no jealousy wrt ex’s starting new relationships. Them be the proper rules for respecting everybody all around, and all.

    The game has changed (not for the better imo). At some point I am just probably going to go Wild Man and try to start fucking every thing that moves, zfg, no caring, just make it all about muh dick. This does go against the moral flavor I happen to like (you know – mutual respect), even though muh dick seems to be just fine wrt operating outside of that moral flavor.

  38. Nice clip. When a man and a woman are BOTH infirm and in old age, a woman STILL loses respect for a man when he’s ill.

  39. Wow – great clip of the old couple. The human spirit is irrepressible. Reminds me of my grandparents that lived into their mid-90’s – the best people I ever knew (and I’m sure the old man gives just as good as he takes just like my granddad – love stories like that, that you can see irl, are very inspiring).

  40. The Brock Turner case is not worth discussing except to note another young man’s life is in ruins from not knowing the Red Pill

  41. Ang Aamer – on your advice to Softek – you said:

    “But women are irrational about relationships. THEREFORE you only need to realize that it is irrational fear that is driving her to give out this ultimatum. Don’t respond rationally that is the trap. The real response is to provide comfort to keep that plate rotating. Until the effort to provide comfort outweighs either your ability to provide it.

    A wise Eastern Philosopher asked a traveling American one time. “How do you keep a falling egg from breaking?”

    The answer is Extend the Journey.

    We are all mortal. One day all of us will stop breathing. With that stark reality firmly fixed in our minds. All men should just take a deep breath and quit taking women so seriously.”

    Ang Aamer – so to you the key us just to quit taking women so seriously. Like …. so you don’t care? Like so you care so little you don’t even care if she is fucking other guys? And if so, for sanity-sake, … then be sure to fuck other women while in relationship with her? So then …. don’t respect her then? Like just tell her what she wants to hear? And this dynamic is necessary because in fact it is due to her nature? Because she can do no other, than be vapid as such (i.e – the “vapid” is innate with women)?

    Look – is that the message here (I think it is)? Then if so don’t you guys gotta prove the innate “vapidity” outside of the social conditioning that allows for women to behave as such (as vapid) that men are also complicit in allowing for wrt said social conditioning? Are you sure that has been proven?

    Ang Aamer – if you read my comments you probably can tell I’m sitting on the fence here about this message. Part of me wants to believe you guys (the dick part) and part of me is saying to myself …. “but fuck dude …. if you choose to believe and go down that road …. and behave accordingly ……. and then it turns out to be wrong …… you gonna be doing shit you are going to regret forever then”. So I want more proof. But nobody here is giving it. What gives?

  42. “My opinion is that a man should not ever commit if he feels a strong pull to still have sex with multiple women. In that case, the woman in question is not fulfilling your need adequately.”

    @Blaximus

    Thx for expounding. Do you miss the tension when you’re fucking a new girl, and you don’t know what each other are going to do and getting to know their bodies and all that? If not, do you know why? Like is it that you’re having more “meaningful” sex with the wife or something?

  43. @ My Brother Andy

    ” Thx for expounding. Do you miss the tension when you’re fucking a new girl, and you don’t know what each other are going to do and getting to know their bodies and all that? If not, do you know why? Like is it that you’re having more “meaningful” sex with the wife or something?”

    Ok, 100% honest, real talk.

    I don’t miss the kind of sexual tension you mention. I am geared more towards true intimacy. I’ve had intimacy with chicks I’ve met and screwed off and on, but imo intimacy is something that builds and strengthens over time.

    Some women that I was having regular sex with, they lacked something in my estimation. A few of the most gorgeous, sexy women I’ve been with lost their appeal over time because the gloss rubbed off of the sex and there wasn’t anything else there that was particularly strong.

    Marriage doesn’t mean the end of sexual tension always. Between the wife and I, there’s a constant undercurrent of sexual tension. I love having sex with her. I vetted her for just that quality.

    I think some men have an issue, in that if they are getting 90% of their needs met, they start wondering and thinking. They grow restless. They equate ” hot chick ” with all manner of positive, unwarranted projection.

    So I wouldn’t exactly say that sex with the wife is more ” meaningful “, although that’s not a bad descriptor, but I’d say that it’s more intimate, even if I’m ripping off her nice new lingerie.

    As always, I break it all down to mindset. I’ve spun plates 5 at a time and it becomes pale in comparison to clicking with someone on all 8 cylinders and having a deep level of trust and understanding, and working together towards a goal.

    I’m a more marriage oriented person. I learned this from trying to answer questions right here at TRM. Before this, I never gave it any really deep thought past knowing what I wanted, and what I didn’t.

    Plus, I’m real big on having what I want out of life.

    Lol, I still find other women sexy and attractive. I’m an “ass man”, and I get eyefuls constantly. I still flirt and occasionally a chick will get ” waxed ” ( like a car ). But what I have is what I wanted.

    I don’t sell my car every time I see a nicer one.

    For me, this is a fairly stress free way to live. I thrive. I have fun. I accomplish long range goals.

    And the wife still soaks her panties via my influence.

    Lol, I won’t go all Fleezer in the description.

  44. “The Talk” LOL

    Don’t be fooled. “The Talk” is nothing more than a bullshit ultimatum. “The Talk” is always a threat no matter how subtly implied. It is blackmail. Never accept blackmail. Doing so is subjection. Do not sell your soul to any whore.

    Accept nothing less than 100% allegiance to you.

  45. I get this question a lot and for a lot of hard-line guys, even the best thing a married man (or LTR man) can say will always sound like he found a unicorn.

    I get this a lot as well and I never know what to say as my wife of 8 years does indeed sound like a unicorn when I try to explain it. I was seeing three other women when she came along and one of the first things that I said to her was that I was happy for something non-exclusive for the duration of her stay, (work-holiday situation in the Italian Alps – she was there for 8 weeks.)

    I began seeing more of her and less of the others. The other thing we did was keep our relationship secret within the confines of where we were working. This had the effect of making it more intense. At the end of the time period I knew that she was a very good one and I said that I was happy to have her stay around a bit longer if she felt like it. We were married within a year, (I was 37 at the time).

    There was never the talk, but during our dalliance I told her that I wasn’t looking for someone that was just romantic sex – I was after someone with whom I could be a team. She didn’t like this very idea very much, she disagreed with me quite strongly. A few months later she told me that she had been wrong and that a team was indeed the right way to go. The sex was important, and still is, but if you base everything on that and attractiveness it just isn’t going to last. You end up fighting against each other as that starts to fade.

    But if you’re a team it’s the two of you against the world. Adversity just makes you stronger in that scenario.

  46. @Rollo
    “Just as an MRP aside, I should also add that relationships that were predicated on The Talk set a precedence for further Talks (ultimatums) within the context of a marriage.

    In other words, if the Talk was effective in coercing a guy to commit or make the LTR “official” you can bet she will resort to something similar in the future when she feels entitled to other aspects of a marriage in which she controls the frame and he must qualify for her socially conditioned, self-serving definition of manhood for complying with her.”

    This is an important fucking point lol Shit should be in the original article (or is a whole article in and of itself).

    The way you enter that relationship she wants defines how she’s going to try to get you to do other shit down the road. If you can be badgered, guilted, shamed, etc into a relationship (hi, softek!), you teach her that when she wants more she should just amp that up because you’ll eventually cave. If you enter a relationship on your own terms, with some resistance, and coming from a frame of abundance (combined with Soft Nexts when she tries to shame/pressure you into shit you don’t want to do), she learns from the get-go that you don’t negotiate with terrorists lol

    That’s why Softek is fucked. He’s already demonstrated to his girl that she can walk all over him because he hasn’t left when she’s done bad behavior, so just like walawala’s BPD kept escalating things, Softeks will too, or will just bide her time till she can get “accidentally” pregnant. There’s no recovering the relationship at this point because she knows him better than he knows himself and knows he’s going to cave if she just keeps up the pressure because his not leaving has taught her that he responds to pressure/scarcity.

    “@YaReally, OT, but this article will interest you in respect to your approach to Game:”

    That’s why I don’t let guys hide behind their crybaby victim complex about how hard it is to learn game or how Tyler’s some apex level of game no one else can reach or avoiding going out infield to approach because they don’t have the right bodyfat percent or height etc. Like Tyler said, the biggest thing that got him into game was knowing that if someone else could do something then, if he worked hard enough, he could do it too. Society will tell guys they’re either born with it or they aren’t, but that’s because society wants BB guys to fail the shit-test and take themselves out of the game.

    https://www.reddit.com/comments/4mkzrl

    “The basic gist of this paper is that how parents talk about intelligence and failure matter. There’s decades of research showing that if you praise intelligence over trying, it teaches the child that you’re either good or bad at things and there’s nothing you can do a bout it. When you praise effort, they tend to persevere more. In short, if children think intelligence is fixed, they see no reason to try.

    What this study adds is saying is that these messages aren’t being sent by parents views on intelligence but by their parents views on failure. They find ” Overall, parents who see failure as debilitating focus on their children’s performance and ability rather than on their children’s learning, and their children, in turn, tend to believe that intelligence is fixed rather than malleable.””

    This is why we encourage guys to view it as a GAME, and to view the world as a social lab to experiment in, and to not base their self-worth on the girl’s reactions and to view their GAME SKILL as separate from their INTERNAL WORTH…ie – if I get shot down it’s not that I’m a shitty loser as a human being, I just made some missteps in my game and wasn’t able to (or didn’t know how to) present my awesomeness in an optimal way in that one interaction. Whereas most guys will interpret rejection as THEM sucking and let it destroy their self-worth, and compare themselves to other guys who have better results and spiral into this whole negative bullshit mindset where they just stop trying because they’re focused more on “playing to NOT LOSE instead of playing to WIN”.

    That’s why I’m a hardass about guys making excuses. There are no excuses. Game is the only hobby that DIRECTLY improves your ability to get pussy, costs no money to do, has no barrier to entry, can be practiced literally anywhere at any time in any interaction with anyone around you, and has no real cap to it…you get as good as you want to get, and all the resources are available for free (or pirating).

    And yet thousands of guys will voluntarily stick to pornhub and lonely nights and make excuses to not go out. Because they’ve been socially conditioned to believe you either have it or you don’t, or that they don’t have the external assets to succeed. Even a lot of Naturals believe that shit and perpetuate it. But the only difference between Tyler and those guys is Tyler went out and decided that if other people can do it, he can do it.

    @rugby11 @Mad Kalak
    Shit, if I gotta be 80 years old and STILL keep up a front like I’m invincible when I’m hunched over a cane so my wife following me around nagging me won’t bail on me if I let down the front, I’ll take being the lonely old man and enjoy the peace and quiet as I shuffle around complaining about my back to the nurses lol

    @Sentient
    lol’ed hard at the noose.

  47. @Rollo

    You and your NPR. I never actually listen to it, but I couldn’t stand the tone in the nineties and never actually listened to it.

    I’m all about talent and mastery. And mentors. And learning.

    Daniel Coyle’s Talent Code and Little Book of Talent are in the same vein and probably duplicate in the info on the link book. And Robert Greene’s intro to Mastery are also appropriate for YaReally’s exhortations (and torrentable for the poor). Mastery over game is a pre-requisite for a man.

  48. @Andy

    TL;DR Don’t underestimate the power of wife and three kids after you made that decision ten years ago. Define who you are and what you need and don’t forget the all other sides in life. The FI doesn’t define your happiness. Define yourself, be alpha, lead and let others come along for the ride.

    Excuse the ramble here. I’ve been busy at work after last weeks vacation and outside of work I have been having a go out in the infield and do a lot of work. And I love my work and my adventures. Life is great, I have the privilege of enjoying it. Even if I’m fatigued physically and mentally in the last 10 days. I’m pushing my edges. That is the thing to do. And That is my excuse for the following:

    Re: your questions. I have never missed the tension when with my wife. I pretty much always experienced it as a spontaneous chemical reaction between me and her. Heck on my part it was always passionate and desirable and I always felt uncomfortable, uncertain and urgent.

    During my fog from the age of 35 to 50 years old, I was in a serious one-down stage where she had the power (because I abdicated alpha because of lack of mentor-ship and ignorance). I would take anything I could get and be happy with it. I was less than alpha, but I was not blue pill leaning in to her pretty much ever. (But I withdrew and was sullen).

    I’m reiterating the fog of war when the kids are one right after the other and they are young. It is tough, and you come third behind the kids and her. That is the natural order of things and you still have the burden of performance and the less than stellar sex.

    I remember that time. I know the feeling. I lost way and regained it. I wish someone would have told me this twenty years ago. I could have been somebody. Wait. What? I am somebody that loves my life. And the manophere and my enthusiasm and Rollo and TRM is to be credited for elevating my purpose and pursuits.

    During this time you have the manosphere. Define your unhappiness. Understand how to keep frame from the FI because it is woman and children all day long. And lead like a mother-fucking alpha male. You will be glad later on.

    Rewards do come down the road if you can be the best alpha with NO BIG DEAL attitude about your burden of performance.

    I mean there is sport-fucking fun and then there is building an empire with a good profession, good LTR, good kids, good house, freedom, basically a kindom you can stop and smell the roses in. Saying one is better than the other is a fools game. A man should have unlimited options, know himself and choose. Choose with wisdom of knowing yourself. And then gain mastery over your goal.

    One day you sit in the stands and are tensed up because you observe your seventeen year old son is tensing his forearms at the baseball plate and feel like oh shit he should relax before the swing more. On the next pitch he hits a home run. And you relax into him just being him.

    Or otherwise he tears his shoulder labrum in football senior year really bad and can’t pitch Senior year after having a 2.0 ERA junior year. He has surgery after the school year and fucks up big time with legal trouble. He is on double secret probation his freshman year and is disallowed drinking any alcohol. You support him, give him red pill “The Way of Men” advice. He listens and gets a 4.0 in his business school curriculum for the first three years at a major University.

    Your daughter is independent and did multiple sports and is a free spirit and striving and is successful. Built by me and my wife in our image. In freshman year of high school she was asked back to school questions in English class:

    “What good books did your read over the summer?”
    Her answer: “I don’t read books.” (Obviously the wrong answer).

    “Who are your heroes?”
    He answer: “My parents” (Obvious the right answer.)

    Your wife is strong and independent and the life of any party.

    You are independent and live an adventurous life.

    Life is exciting and uncertain.

    Do you really think fucking a chick on the side trumps that?

    When you actually think about it sex with the wife is meaningful. Really meaningful. With the caveat that she is attractive and worth fucking. She will ditch you in a heart-beat if you fuck up your burden of performance or provider-ship or become “don’t just get it”. But she has her older woman power. You may be attracted to younger women, but each age of woman has its own value. (Chapter 40 of TWSM, Deida. Deida can’t be understood until you build your empire and have abundance, before that it is bullshit). You can’t tell me, Blax or Rollo that their woman isn’t fine–these women went through the transition of superficial shine to deep radiance. And your wife will too Andy.

    I’m still not advocating for monogamy, I’m just advocating for you to find what the missing thing is in your self fulfillment and work to get toward that.
    I find that I actually never had a void. On the one hand, I had the job, relationship and children. And then I had the other half of wonderment at hobbies, pursuits at passions. I never got bored or frustrated with the primaries, because I had the all others.

    In college, I had my pre-professional studies (Science), then I had the all others: Philosophy, Theology, humanities seminar, art traditions, pottery, social dance. That all other shit was great.

    Every profession and step along the way, was the all other.

    This red pill awareness and game is an all other from married man life and it complements the primary.

    Andy you said: “It’s just that according to the FI, I SHOULD be content. I’m not.”

    Once again, do you even read Rollo, Bro? YGBSM. Contentment for you is derived from red pill awareness and game and the Masculine Imperative. I think you had a brain fart when you thought the FI dictates state you should be content when they also want you to be a mule slave to carry thier weight.

    I don’t think you should be pushing yourself blindly about your situation Andy.

    I just think you don’t have freedom from constraint and burden of performance for less than male orgasmic results. La Petit Mort is fleeting, go for something more long standing and a true purpose in life. Your true purpose in life comes before your relationship and don’t use the mundane, tough, boring parenting (don’t use your family as an excuse) to be great at being a man. But don’t neglect and open your eyes to how great you can actually have a family, and be happy after burden of performance and being good at being a father and a husband.

    On the other hand, I don’t know know what you are actually lacking. Maybe you can drill down on that harder. I do admire your enthusiasm for game because I think it will really produce real power for you. (Rollo, I think sensed your lack of reading some of his seminal essays and I think you should double down on some of his early writings, even if your time is limited.)

    Once again I think monogamy or non-monogamy is a non issue. Either is fine. As long as you know you and you aren’t unaware of how you want to define yourself.

    Once again, I ramble, disorganized in order to share ideas.

  49. Dread is the unsought result of a man having options. Dread isn’t something a man seeks to create. Dread is created by a woman’s hypergamous desire for exclusivity with a man who has options.

  50. Au contraire, Blaximus: I would say Hell Yes! Please note that “wanting to”, and “actually following through on it”, are two different things.

  51. @ SJF

    Good stuff man. Real good.

    ” Your true purpose in life comes before your relationship and don’t use the mundane, tough, boring parenting (don’t use your family as an excuse) to be great at being a man. But don’t neglect and open your eyes to how great you can actually have a family, and be happy after burden of performance and being good at being a father and a husband.”

    This right here.

    In this society, ” Father ” and ” Husband ” have been reduced to virtual insignificance. But these descriptions hold great power in your own family when executed properly. It is wise advice to not listen to the FI soaked noise from without.

    In my home, my rule is that the outside world STAYS on the other side of the door at all times. The home I provide is one of safety and refuge.

    It is also vitally important that a father always remember Blax’s Rule of Kid Raising – Rule 1: They didn’t ask to be here. They can’t really be annoying per se because it is our job as Father to raise them. The time goes quickly. The sacrifice, if you want to see it that way, is a small one.

    They depend on you for much more than food, clothing and shelter. they are much more than a bundle of you and your wife’s DNA.

    Your investment now pays huge dividends in the end. Sure, there will be screw ups from time to time, but that’s the nature of life.

    My wife was dressing down my daughter about ..something. I don’t pay too close attention to girl-talk. But wifey gave my daughter an assload of chores to do for whatever it was that set her off.

    As the authority in the home, I mentioned to the wife that we have a 16 year old, honor roll student that works on the weekends, doesn’t drink, smoke or curse ( in front of us. I’m not stupid ) and asks us for advice and follows it.

    Then I told wifey to recall what most of her ” girlfriends ” are like.

    Wifey thought, agreed, and rescinded her punishment/chores.

    I laughed and reminded her that ” I don’t raise fools ..”.

    Andy, don’t stress over family life. It’s important. Don’t seek thanks or appreciation, but take it when it presents itself. And it will.

    But, it’s important. It’s how we keep kids out of Gorilla enclosures.

  52. @ KP

    ” Au contraire, Blaximus: I would say Hell Yes! Please note that “wanting to”, and “actually following through on it”, are two different things.”

    He he he… I would say ” Mind your ‘wants’ because someone wants your mind ” – George Clinton

    I’m cool with a degree of want. A low level want. I’m weary of wanting to the point of distraction and frustration. Always.

    I listen to my mind and thoughts, but I always have the final say.

    …something like that

  53. @ Blax

    Since you’ve got good taste in music, this is how I’ve been feeling tonight. Don’t want to wallow in it, but it’s like a catharsis for me. Listen to it a few times and let it filter through. Tomorrow’s a new day.

    I actually have been thinking ‘sowing my wild oats’ feels forced, because the sex I’ve been having is enough for me. Strange pussy is alluring until I stop and think about going through the whole process of building a relationship again and then it just doesn’t feel like it’s worth it. Or when I remember the past several hookups I had with random girls and how much it sucked. It just felt empty and immediately afterwards I just wanted to get out of there. In some ways it was more stress than it was a release.

    I feel like I get what you’re saying about preferring to be a ‘team player’ and remember a post you made months ago where you said you always preferred a relationship to chasing random pussy.

    The girl’s selling me on the whole thing with sweet nothings, saying she wants to be a team player, etc., grow together, all that.

    Which honestly I’d be on board with. If it wasn’t for the fact that what Ya is saying is true, and what Rollo’s written about is true.

    It doesn’t even have anything to do with me fucking other women or not at this point. It has to do with my frame, as scrib pointed out. Just knowing what I want and pursuing it.

    I could be happy with this girl if things had started out differently, if I had Frame, if I had a reality that she entered. But I didn’t. So the “could be” and “should be” don’t mean shit at this point.

    The reality is that the well is poisoned. The fact that she’s pressuring me, like even now I just got off the phone with her, and she was all upset and pissy because her friend is cheating on her boyfriend, “even though they’re official,” and how she’s saying “I wouldn’t do that to you, and we’re not even official,” …

    It’s just bullshit. What the fuck does “official” mean? It means she’s manipulating me, and I feel more like a pawn in her fulfilling her Hypergamy than a man she loves and cares about and respects. That’s what that tells me. That’s what “official” means to me. That’s what “The Talk” means to me.

    When I hung up the phone just now I had the feeling that I don’t even care anymore. It’s not like things are rotten between us, or horrible all the time. It’s just being beaten over the head with red flags telling me that she’s not in my frame, and even if I WANTED to have a monogamous relationship, which in reality I might actually want…

    …it’s too late to have that with her. It’s the emptiness and depression of realizing that maybe I DO want a monogamous relationship, but it isn’t going to work with her, ironically because she’s been pushing so hard for it and wants it so bad that she thinks it’s okay to give me shit and insult me and disrespect me to make her demands for it.

    Just the fact that she’s pushed for “The Talk” so many times, and has given me so much shit about committing to her, I have no choice at this point. I can’t commit to her, and I won’t, because I know that’s signing off on the death of the relationship.

    It keeps going in circles, but I’m not budging, and I’m not going to. I’m getting really depressed again, but I’m not going to get desperate and agree “OH okay, be my girlfriend, let’s be official.”

    I can’t do that, knowing what it means for the relationship. At this point? Knowing what I know now?

    If it really gets to the point where she threatens to stop having sex with me if I don’t commit to her (which hasn’t happened yet), it’s more than over at that point. It would be absolutely retarded of me to think, at that point, that committing to her would turn anything around.

    Again….even if I wanted a monogamous relationship where me and a girl supported each other and wanted to help each other grow, and build intimacy….that can only really happen in a Red Pill context where the woman respects me and defers to me. Enters my reality. And a sign of that would be her not brow beating me with shit like this.

    I think months ago, before I even knew any of this, when she asked me why I didn’t want her to be my girlfriend, I told her it was because I felt like she just wanted the title of having a boyfriend more than actually being with me. That she was with me whether we had a title or not, and her desire to be with me is what should matter, not a meaningless label.

    She denied that she wanted a label. And claimed to really care about me. Maybe even apologized. And yet here we are months later with her still pushing for it. In reality we have a relationship.

    But “the medium is the message.”

    Her perception of me being high value enough to want commitment from is getting overrun by her Hypergamy necessitating her to lock down a provider as she’s approaching The Wall.

    That’s why if it happens, I can say I saw it coming. There are other guys vying for her attention. Guys that are older than her, not younger like me, and are established, have stable careers making six figures, that want to have kids, etc.

    She’ll probably end up with one of those guys. I’ve already mentally prepared for it. Yes, the girl I have ONE-itis for now, banging some other guy to fulfill her Hypergamy.

    @ Sentient

    Lol’d at that picture. But seriously, I was in that position before the relationship anyway. I feel like the relationship is just a manifestation of my own issues. If I had truly developed Frame, and was living in my own reality, I wouldn’t have gotten into this situation.

    Not as much has changed as I thought, although I think I’m a lot less suicidal than I used to be. I have grown.

    But being suicidal is the major symptom of having no frame, not being your own mental point of origin, etc.

    It’s just a symptom of being completely lost and getting overwhelmed with feeling lost. Having attempted it myself I will say this: it can feel like it’s the only way you can have any kind of ultimate control.

    Like making your own individual choice to take yourself out of the world feels like the only real power you have over your life. I don’t like the trope of “it’s the cowards’ way out.” First time I saw a 16 year old dead in a casket from suicide it was a heavy day. Couldn’t wrap my head around it.

    Tropes like “it’s the cowards’ way out” won’t dissuade anyone.

    The real deal is going in and asking the hard questions:

    How do you know you don’t have Frame?
    How do you know you’re not your own mental point of origin?
    How do you know you’re powerless over your life?
    How do you know you’re out of control?
    How do you know your life can’t be different?

    These questions have answers on the subconscious level, if you simply ask yourself and pay attention to the answers that come up. They’ll come up without even trying. Memories, “proof” of those beliefs. Beliefs can change.

    I feel like I’ve answered some of them for myself already, and that’s resulted in me recovering more quickly from my depressive episodes, and functioning a lot more than I used to.

    If you don’t have the will to live, you’re not going to do shit. Much less be a man that other men will follow, or women will defer to.

    It’s no coincidence that I made a suicide attempt probably a few days before everything started with this girl 9-10 months ago. That’s the Frame I was starting from.

    It’s shitty because you’d think wow, I found someone to care about me in a vulnerable time like this, how lucky. I felt like I really needed it.

    Not the case. If you don’t have a strong frame, women can’t enter it. And everything will be poisoned at the start.

    I’m just trying to pick up the pieces now. My mind’s been going through some major shifts lately as a result of reading all this and thinking about it. Feels like I’m grieving the loss of the relationship before it’s “officially” over.

    Lol. There’s another “official” for you. Like people staying married long after it’s dead. “Officially” being together doesn’t mean shit. The medium is the message.

    “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”

  54. @ softek

    Wanting a relationship never means having to settle or give up your frame.

    Oh, and the Curtis Mayfield tune? Nice tune, but always remember that dudes wrote stuff like that from experience and they poured it out on vinyl for us to listen to, relate, and them move on.

    Just showing that there’s hardly anything a man can go through that another man hasn’t already gone through.

    ” Again….even if I wanted a monogamous relationship where me and a girl supported each other and wanted to help each other grow, and build intimacy….that can only really happen in a Red Pill context where the woman respects me and defers to me. Enters my reality. And a sign of that would be her not brow beating me with shit like this. ”

    You know you’re answering your own questions, right?

  55. “In this society, ” Father ” and ” Husband ” have been reduced to virtual insignificance. But these descriptions hold great power in your own family when executed properly. It is wise advice to not listen to the FI soaked noise from without.”

    Re-iterating. Feminine Imperative is soaked with NOISE. Penetrate the noise across all relationship platforms. The masculine alpha you transcends the noise and you give because you have power and the energy the Matrix takes is insignificant. Because you are a dynamo of self generated masculine red pill aware game energy. Nobody can take too much because you have masculine excess.

    “My wife was dressing down my daughter about ..something. I don’t pay too close attention to girl-talk. But wifey gave my daughter an assload of chores to do for whatever it was that set her off.”

    I observe one of my “high functioning” couple friends of my wife and I, with three young girls. I am frustrated by their lack of parent skills.

    The Noise is fucking killing them. They are consumerist. Perhaps the dad is 45 and the wife is late thirties. They don’t have perspective.

    They have no perspective on what is best for children. In a Dr. Laura world, raising children is the primary perspective. You can’t raise the children for a better life unless you have Rollo’s abundance (and mine and Blaximus’). The children matter in a red pill parenting mindset.

    Our friend couple stifle their children for their own selfish motives, instead of paying attention to them and elevating their energy. They shut them down instead of inspire them to higher creative energies.

    I’ve been there and my wife had more strength to inspire them. I never stifled them. But later on as a parent in the last five years, when I marshaled my energies, I elevated their game. It is not a burden. It is a life force that I have within me. And they benefit from it and they are free to pursue their own life force as independents.

    @ Softek

    A male caller to Dr. Laura recently ask if she could help him.

    The male announced five years ago that he wouldn’t commit to her. Now he wonders why his girlfriend won’t be on board with his “his program”

    His girlfriend had a daughter and two previous marriages. He liked her and wanted to keep fucking her.

    Well the girlfriend flipped and wanted him to commit to her and her child. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

    Dr. Laura, as befitting her FI, yet red pill mindset told him: You are using her because your goals don’t align.

    @Softek,

    Your goals don’t align with your girlfriend. She wants commitment. She wants babies @30 y.o. according to her friends and the FI.

    Yeah, its heresy to say you shouldn’t get your Platinum Rule goals. Platinum rules assume you have Alpha Dynamic (passionate, dynamic and authentic). Authentic having precedence. It subsumes you being skilled and having mastery over yourself and her. You cannot proceed without mastery. You need to spin plates. Until you get your bearings. Unless you have mastery, you are simply playing with dynamite. Don’t play with dynamite.

    But you can’t fit a square peg in a round hole. You can’t negotiate desire with an Epiphany Phase girl that wants alleged Alpha male (your posing position) with Provider male (which you can’t provide adequately and will blow up in your face).

    Your relationship is a sham. She wants something you cannot and should not provide.

    Move on. And don’t get her pregnant. You are using her (for sex. heresy, yes, but reality, and praxeology). If you don’t realize that, she will use you to your destruction.

  56. @Softek

    99% of popular music since 1955 has bowed to the Feminine Imperative.
    Leaning into the feminine.

    Good music is a pillar of outside in dopamine influx. Just don’t look for masculine red pill awareness, Led Zeppelin, notwithstanding.

    Listen to music to feel better. Don’t look to it for red pill awareness. It won’t deliver.

    You need music. To feel better. Don’t believe it’s lyrics. Transcend that shit.

  57. The woman is having the talk because she wants control over the situation, not because she can’t get anyone else or even considers you worth the investment. Stop overthinking it. Stop overvaluing it.

    JUST STOP.

    That also means stop talking about “maintaining frame” and actually get some damn frame. That is: conviction, a moral compass and the courage to act.

    Very annoying to read post after post of whiny whinefulness (not just this site either). Actually, it’s disheartening, because these ghosts are not hiding in the shadows but in plain sight, the average joe at every cubicle and corner of the U.S. wasting everyone’s time as society circles the drain. There is no hope for the country.

    Those who will be rightful leaders are not here posting nonsense, especially nonsense that contradicts everything it means to be awake and aware. No. They are living lives and commanding others in positions of power. Get some sense of authority and own it. Or get out.

  58. So it is with temporary relationships — the upper hand belongs to whichever party values the relationship less. Thus you can fuck women senseless but you can never love them, or worse, have children with them, lest you lose frame.

    Over the next 60 years, you and your bros and your hos will die one by one, and all of North America will become Amish country. Tiny minorities who marry young, stay married with the clear understanding that the man is in charge, and have lots of children tend to become the majority in a century or so.

    The Amish aren’t pacifists anymore; they all bought guns and learned to shoot after the Nickel Mines massacre. Being of pure German descent, they can easily wipe out any mudskins who try to fuck with them. They have no mass media to infect them with Jew propaganda, and no hierarchy for SJWs to infiltrate. They aren’t poor either; since they make everything they need, their only expense is buying more land for their children to farm.

  59. Her friends popping out babies and then giving her shit for not having kids . . . I’m 26, she’s 30. ”

    Run. The. Fuck. Away.

    Unfortunately, I’ve been reading enough here to realize it is ultimately going to take something very bad happening in order to learn. Some people simply have to stick their hands in fire and get burnt even if many people are saying don’t stick your hands in fire

  60. >>You want to see some top notch Blue Pill conditioning?
    >Can you name a single TV show or movie on the last 40 years that is >NOT blue pill conditioning?

    “Flaked” comes to mind. “Longmire” certainly.

    Yet another great and timely post. And, as usual, I look forward to the commenters input.

    As a former longtime older BP’er I’m about to embark in an interesting adventure with a supposedly virgin 20yo so I need to keep this post in mind and keep reminding myself on what level I’m operating on with this new girl.

    May the Frame be with me.

  61. @Ang Aamer
    “A wise Eastern Philosopher asked a traveling American one time. “How do you keep a falling egg from breaking?”
    The answer is Extend the Journey.
    We are all mortal. One day all of us will stop breathing. With that stark reality firmly fixed in our minds. All men should just take a deep breath and quit taking women so seriously.”

    Fuck I love you guys

  62. @ Blax

    “You know you’re answering your own questions, right?”

    Yes, because I’m doing that on purpose.

    I had some understanding of the situation, but before this article, it didn’t really “click,” and I felt like I wasn’t getting the reality of what was going on. Which is why I asked the questions I did in the last thread, which were addressed in this article. I didn’t have the answers and was confused.

    Writing this out feels necessary to me because it’s helping me to assimilate and reinforce information that is new to me. I haven’t thought about the relationship from this perspective before, and it has never felt clear to me at all before. Just a general feeling of uneasiness, and having read Rollo’s stuff about Ultimatums, I had some idea. But not as much as after reading this article.

    Even then, it’s hard for me to accept. So now I have brand new information that I don’t want to hear and am having to face some truths about my life that are very hard for me to conceptually understand, let alone face.

    @ Morpheus

    “There are four horses.

    The excellent horse moves before the whip touches its back.

    The good horse runs at the lightest touch.

    The poor horse doesn’t move till it feels pain.

    And then there is the very bad horse. It stays still until the whip penetrates its marrow.”

    Everyone likes to think of themselves as being the excellent horse.

  63. “And then there is the very bad horse. It stays still until the whip penetrates its marrow.”

    Because it is its own mental point of origin and rejects being the tool of another’s will.

    It is your girl who holds the whip and is looking to make you an excellent horse.

  64. Gillette has a new commercial where, for once, the dad isn’t a bumbling idiot. Of course it’s clearly father’s day marketing, but still good to see a little push back against every movie, show and commercial now showing dad as a clueless buffoon while mom is super woman.

    I’d post this at CH as well but they’d have a conniption over the multiculturalism…

  65. Guys, thx for the reply. Just want to reiterate that I’m not attacking anyone, I’m just trying to understand where your mind is at.

    @Blaximus

    “I don’t miss the kind of sexual tension you mention. I am geared more towards true intimacy.”

    What IS this ethereal “intimacy” we speak of? Like can you explain what it is about it that you enjoy? To me it just seems like a flowery word for familiarity. In my marriage for example, I guess you could say we’re “intimate”. We’ve been together for a while. We see each other every day for the most part. Sex is very carefree, and fun, and great… Is that “intimacy”? I guess I just don’t get the appeal. I’m not saying it’s bad. It’s just ya know. Nice, I guess. Am I missing something?
    —————-
    “A few of the most gorgeous, sexy women I’ve been with lost their appeal over time because the gloss rubbed off of the sex and there wasn’t anything else there that was particularly strong.”

    What is the “else”? Like what is it with the wife that you get whatever was missing with the other chicks?
    ——————
    “Marriage doesn’t mean the end of sexual tension always. Between the wife and I, there’s a constant undercurrent of sexual tension. I love having sex with her.”

    “And the wife still soaks her panties via my influence.”

    I guess you could say we still have sexual tension. Although I think mostly it’s me just being an insatiable horn dog. lol. Like can you still make her tremble by running a finger down her body? That level of tension? If so, massive props haha. If that’s the case I guess I have more work to do. I just don’t get how you can maintain that with someone that you see every day.

    There’s just so many variables it’s hard to determine what’s different. Like, I think my wife might be one of those “pound my pussy for 30 minutes” types. I’ve tried everything, but her favorite foreplay is either sucking my dick, or me pinning her down and just shoving it in there with bonus points for making her gasp a few times while I do it. lol. Again… NOTHING wrong with that. It’s fun, but she just doesn’t really seem to crave variety in that area.
    ———————————
    “I don’t sell my car every time I see a nicer one.”

    Why not take the nice car for a lap around the track then get back into the daily driver? Hypothetical: You meet a girl, same personality type as your wife. You have really good chemistry, she’s young, she wants you. There’s no chance of your wife ever finding out. Do you fuck her? If not, why? Like why deny her that experience? Serious question.
    ——————————–
    @SJF

    “I remember that time. I know the feeling. I lost way and regained it. I wish someone would have told me this twenty years ago.”

    What exactly are you telling me here? This is just vague and abstract.
    —————————————-
    “I’m reiterating the fog of war when the kids are one right after the other and they are young. It is tough, and you come third behind the kids and her. That is the natural order of things and you still have the burden of performance and the less than stellar sex.”

    I don’t even get this fog of war idea. What happens when the fog clears?? Also, I don’t really have a problem with the sex, it’s great. I try and mix it up, but essentially it’s mostly the same.
    ———————————
    “During this time you have the manosphere. Define your unhappiness. Understand how to keep frame from the FI because it is woman and children all day long. And lead like a mother-fucking alpha male. You will be glad later on.”

    Why will I be glad later on?
    —————————————-
    “Rewards do come down the road if you can be the best alpha with NO BIG DEAL attitude about your burden of performance.”

    Okay… What’s the reward? And if I fuck other women will there no longer be this reward?
    —————————————-
    “Do you really think fucking a chick on the side trumps that?”

    Is this a mutually exclusive thing? I’m not trying to be snarky. Serious question.
    ————————————————
    “You can’t tell me, Blax or Rollo that their woman isn’t fine–these women went through the transition of superficial shine to deep radiance. And your wife will too Andy.”

    Forgive me for being blunt… But, wtf does this mean? She just looks older to me. I really feel like I’m missing something… lol. It’s frustrating.
    ————————————
    “But don’t neglect and open your eyes to how great you can actually have a family, and be happy after burden of performance and being good at being a father and a husband.”

    I am good at those things, and I enjoy them, and they’re great. Is this the reward you’re talking about? Seeing the kids grow up? I mean that’s great. I love all that. I actually really enjoy my burden. But like… Right now. As happy as you are. I’ll give you the same hypothetical as Blax. You meet a young girl, you really click, nobody will know… Do you fuck her? Why not? Why deny you and her that experience?
    ——————————-
    @Blax

    “In this society, ” Father ” and ” Husband ” have been reduced to virtual insignificance. But these descriptions hold great power in your own family when executed properly. It is wise advice to not listen to the FI soaked noise from without.”

    I really don’t have any problems in this area. I enjoy the kids, the house, the wife, all that. But I think it’s interesting that you and SJF would assume I have issues with this. Like for you is just having those things worth monogamy? I just don’t get the mutually exclusive assumption with family and monogamy.
    ————————————–
    “Your investment now pays huge dividends in the end. Sure, there will be screw ups from time to time, but that’s the nature of life.”

    WHAT IS THE HUGE DIVIDEND??!?!? lol. Is this something that you can’t put into words? I. Just. Don’t. Get it.

    @Blax, @SJF

    So to both of you, in general. What is it do you think I’m missing? Is it the wrong girl? We’re just different people? It seems like there really is something I’m missing, but you can’t describe it for some reason??? I truly want to understand. Like, to me, I’m giving my wife her dream life. She’s very, very happy. But, it just all feels like the “burden” to me. It’s not BAD, it’s just not EVERYTHING.

  66. Smurf

    June 7th, 2016 at 9:57 pm

    The woman is having the talk because she wants control over the situation, not because she can’t get anyone else or even considers you worth the investment. Stop overthinking it. Stop overvaluing it.

    JUST STOP.

    That also means stop talking about “maintaining frame” and actually get some damn frame. That is: conviction, a moral compass and the courage to act.

    Very annoying to read post after post of whiny whinefulness (not just this site either). Actually, it’s disheartening, because these ghosts are not hiding in the shadows but in plain sight, the average joe at every cubicle and corner of the U.S. wasting everyone’s time as society circles the drain. There is no hope for the country.

    Those who will be rightful leaders are not here posting nonsense, especially nonsense that contradicts everything it means to be awake and aware. No. They are living lives and commanding others in positions of power. Get some sense of authority and own it. Or get out.

    Fuckin’ A, man!

  67. I just got flaked on by a girl I’m gaming and took lit last week. She seemed keen but was constantly shit testing as you’d expect form an hb8.

    We’re set to meet up and she was supposed to by me a steak dinner after losing a bet we made then:

    Her: oh no. I totally forgot I had a class and can’t meet you. Sorrrrrrweeeeee

    That last part convinced me it was a shit test.

    She’d been sniffing out my alpha cred So the last sorrrrrweee is a indicator.

    I didn’t reply.

    The idea of chasing or negotiating is now so sickening to me that any response would indicate I cared.

    The first time we made plans she changed them then later said she wasn’t sure she wanted skip her moms cooking to meet some random dude. I just cracked a smile of amused mastery and changed the subject.

  68. “can you still make her tremble by running a finger down her body?”

    I have all kinds of fun rules. one of them is that everytime I see a nipple, I lick it.

    she trembles. every time. and it’s funny how often she makes sure those nipples appear in my field of vision.

    the other day I stopped by her work as it’s on one of my biking routes. I was actually on my way to meet a girl, but she didn’t know that. I pulled her out of her office and kissed her. that’s all. just a kiss. then I sent her back in.

    me: “go make some money”

    her: “I’m wet”

    the best jams are tension and release. foreplay is like a sick, minor key dissonant build. the man is the architect of the foreplay structure and while the woman knows the major key resolution is coming, she doesn’t know when or where. there are enough variables in that simple equation to keep things novel and exciting for a lifetime.

  69. Well this is extremely great timing for me to have read this post. The RN I work with just informed me my very needy male PM shift coworker told her yesterday that we need to “talk” and have a meeting today. I felt like i was just kicked in the balls.

    So my question is how to deal w/a male coworker who wants/has to “talk”, when I have zero interest in even pretending to care during this meeting. I keep declining to have beers w/this betamale as well and I can’t help but think this is also part of the underlining dynamic.

  70. Fleezer – so you be fucking other women then. Does wifey generally know you do this? Does she care? How do you know she cares/doesn’t care? How do you know whether other women you are fucking are not some guy’s girlfriend? If you just go with what the side-fuck tells you, at face value?, if so, do you consider whether you just believe out of convenience to you?, or do do some vetting? If so, how do you do the vetting without it crossing the line towards stalking type shit?

  71. @blax

    ‘I am a huge believer in men sowing their wild oats. ‘

    hard for me to ever believe that the oats are ever truly sewn.

    @all

    while i don’t mind the women-as-children/puppies narrative here wrt game ‘utility,’ i don’t agree with it… (obv I think it’s sexist but it’s stronger than nothing)….i think they are boundary pushers and line-steppers. Habitual line-steppers…

    you can’t ever give an inch. that’s it, that’s all.

    3 rules to always DHV

    1) control your environment; failing that
    2) walking away completely if 1) isn’t an option
    3) there are no fuck-ups; never apologize

    3) is huge. a lot of guys screw up here or there or even majorly in their social circle, in set, wherever, and then they start apologizing for themselves. never do that.

    idc if you pissed in their sink or sent a beta-drenched novella drunk text….the correct play afterwards is to just laugh about it.

  72. “they are boundary pushers and line-steppers” –

    this is how young children act.

  73. “….i think they are boundary pushers and line-steppers. Habitual line-steppers…”

    Just like children and puppies.

  74. Softek – I haven’t followed everything you have said, (especially going back a awhile), but I am starting to get the following from what you have recently written:

    – First off it’s not at all clear that your woman is BPD. Best you determine that (cause if true – then – it just is not gonna turn out good – pretty much no matter what). Since as you have already shared, you got some mental issues of your own, you may not be the best person to make that determination though. Crazy how this works huh?

    – She not talking about marriage or children with you – right – just wants to be your girlfriend – right? What’s the fucking big deal then? Call her your girlfriend then. So what. She can be your ex-girlfriend at any time so what diff does it make. You being weird about that imo

    – the exclusivity thing – this is not a big deal either. She says “I want you all to myself baby” – right? Good she saying this if that is what she is saying. You don’t want her to be saying anything other than that, imo (unless you like girlfriend-sharing sex parties, which I take it is not your cup of tea). You then be sayin – “ya – me be lovin your curves (or your V, or your ass, or your vibe, or whatever – pick one), I’m really into you girl – let’s see how this plays out”. That be the truth right? So what wrong with the truth? If it not the truth – then you probably not into her. But then the question would be – why? Cause I notice you just keep waffling back and forth and saying, she the best, but then at another time you say you don’t fuck her very often cause you be turned-off and don’t want to. Why so conflicted? You mentioned other guys that got it going on success-wise that you think she will default to, if you end it with her. Maybe you scared you can’t live up to what you sense she sees has her due, wrt SMV? OK – if that the truth – change that opinion of yourself, or alternatively as Scray has said before “be real about knowledge of your limitations”. Maybe your perceived limitations include a lack of sexual experience that you think you need to have for yourself before you settle down (but you gotta decide the importance related to that in your current circumstance all on your own), and you sense this woman wants to settle down (she is of that age after all). Well – I don’t know what to tell you then. The advice here on that is pretty varied. My way, would be to end it with her then, and go get your experience, it that truly is so important to you, and not something you think you need to have simply because people told you (only fair to her then do it that way right?) But alot of the advice here is, – “screw what’s fair, go fuck behind her back and lie, or alternatively, fuck other women and shove her face in it and operant condition her ass into accepting that shit, the sex game thing is nothin about being fair, get yours is what it is all about – makes you feel good about yourself and all” – fuck I don’t know – that is one way to allow for “feelz good about yourself”, but it would be ridiculous to think that doesn’t come with some associated cost wrt “not feeling good about oneself”. Double bind man. Join the shitshow here. That’s the bind everybody is in. Nobody want to talk about it either. Just know that about the advice you are getting here (before the advice otherwise fucks with your head too much).

    Nobody got a real answer for this double bind shit. There are really no good choices – only choices. – you gotta decide what’s good for you and live with the consequences. If it turns out your decisions are not good for you – then you got nobody to blame but yourself. Any other way is weasel shit. Such is life man. Ever single one of this is subject to this. You gotta know this about people when taking their advice though – is my main point.

  75. ““they are boundary pushers and line-steppers” –
    this is how young children act.”

    Yeah… When you’re in the thick of it and you’re dealing with both… It’s hard to really distinguish the difference in behavior. Sometimes it’s the exact same behavior at the same time. lol. I shit you not… I don’t know how you can NOT come to the conclusion that as men we’re simply more mature.

    “Shit, if I gotta be 80 years old and STILL keep up a front like I’m invincible when I’m hunched over a cane so my wife following me around nagging me won’t bail on me if I let down the front, I’ll take being the lonely old man and enjoy the peace and quiet as I shuffle around complaining about my back to the nurses lol”

    Right. Like if what we’re seeing in that video is what Blax and SJF would call “intimacy”… I guess I still don’t get it. All I see in that video is burden. I get that there’s history, and all that. If keeping her happy, and managing her emotions for 50 years, and being invincible and the reward for all that is???? Still waiting on that one. Happy kids? I get to pat myself on the back for a job well done? Wife will occasionally tell me “You’re a good man.”? It’s not that hard once you get the hang of it, but idk… I’m not seeing the upside, as far as limiting myself to one woman anyway. Is risking divorce the only reason? Is it that you can relax and focus on woodworking and trimming your rose bush? Those reasons just are not good enough for me. If there’s some other “reward”… What is it?

    Don’t get me wrong, I like that stuff too, but life is fucking short. I’m not going to limit myself unless there’s a really good reason.

  76. @sentient@kfg

    while it is like them, the reasons are different and other kinds of people push boundaries

    natural alphas push boundaries too — are they little kids?

    These groups of people push it for different reasons. Children are just curious. Puppies don’t even know they’re pushing boundaries.

    Women push boundaries to test your strength, because that is something they need to have.

    this difference in viewpoint has advantages at the margin. treating them like children all the time actually will cause you to invest too much: we like kids, they are blameless, etc.

    if i just treat her as some tempest with agency and let her do as she pleases while holding my boundaries solid, this is very high value.

  77. @andy

    ‘It’s hard to really distinguish the difference in behavior’

    that doesn’t mean there isn’t a difference.

    children must be policed and must have rules placed upon them.

    like I said, this viewpoint is MUCH BETTER wrt to game utility than, idk…anything blue pill.

    however, I don’t need to force any rules on her. I don’t give a shit what she does. I have my rules for myself and that’s it. She doesn’t need to follow them and I don’t care if she does.

    ‘I don’t know how you can NOT come to the conclusion that as men we’re simply more mature.’

    easy.

    go become a rockstar.
    tell me how you start behaving.

    you will start behaving more like a woman does — you will be irrational, arbitrary, and impulsive. why? because you can.

    and people will say they are more ‘mature’ than you are.

    maturity, logic, etc. these things are only worthwhile as long as they have utility for you. women can get pretty much ANYTHING they want (esp hot women) without deploying any of them. so why should they?

  78. “go become a rockstar.
    tell me how you start behaving.
    you will start behaving more like a woman does — you will be irrational, arbitrary, and impulsive. why? because you can.”

    I really don’t think I would.

    “Women push boundaries to test your strength, because that is something they need to have.”

    Exactly. I don’t need anyone’s strength. And I wouldn’t if I was a rockstar.

  79. @andy

    ‘I really don’t think I would.’

    lol you don’t think having the world at your fingertips no questions asked would radically change your behavior?

    the entire saying about power corrupting is referring to this EXACT phenomenon….

    ‘Exactly. I don’t need anyone’s strength. And I wouldn’t if I was a rockstar.’

    once again:

    These groups of people push it for different reasons

  80. Andy – that old couple – I saw that growing up because back then around me there were lotsa old people around that were married for a long long time. Some of these couples were crotchety and cranky (cause getting old tends to to that to you), but in a mean-spirited way. Like they weren’t just playing with the themes of their current plight, but were fucking serious about their selfish shit. Fucking ugly ass old people. Went thru life and didn’t learn nuthin. Fuck them.

    Then there were other crotchety and cranky old people (cause getting old tends to do that to you), who were not at all mean-spirited but instead basically lovely people. They just be playing with the themes of their current plight, with good humor. Such old couples were dedicated to one another (years and years and years of sharing life’s trials and tribulations mainly with one other person at their side during the whole crazy ride – and seeing the value in that). It’s all in the subtextual communication.. Some beautiful old people that shine a light on in a light-hearted way wrt the vicissitudes that we all will be faced with if we live that long. Obviously they learned some shit from life cause they showing me something I don’t know much about yet, but might need to know more about – something about the virtue in just accepting shit when you got no choice to do otherwise, but accepting without losing yourself in the process. I love these kinds of old people.

    Big difference.

  81. “These groups of people push it for different reasons”

    Okay. Girls need strength. Not much to argue about there. I think it’s funny to compare them to dogs. So I’ll probably keep doing it. It’s about where it’s COMING FROM maaaaannnnn… 😉

  82. Women, children and puppies are habitual boundary pushers because:

    1) They need protection and provisioning.
    2) They need to find their place in the social hierarchy.
    3) They can.

    Alpha males push boundaries because:

    1) They need to protect and provide.
    2) They need to establish the social hierarchy.
    3) They can.

    The boundaries they push are different.

    This is relevant to what Dalrock is writing about right now.

    Lindberg pushed the boundaries of what could be done in aviation.
    Earhart followed, pushing the boundaries of what women could do, as the passenger in a male piloted plane.

  83. “if i just treat her as some tempest with agency and let her do as she pleases while holding my boundaries solid, this is very high value.
    scray”

    Yeah – that’s the way I see it. Like what other choice do you have unless you want to believe some BS about women’s innate inferiority wrt to ontological capacity? If a guy can’t see that, that woman’s normative inferiority wrt ontological capacity, is BS – he really be just so stupid then, just a fucking idiot imo. He may have as his own a particular woman that actually has lower ontological capacity for whatever reason (as some men are also so predisposed), but for such man then to pretend that it is about him being superior as the man, as all men in general are superior wrt to all women in general, is stupid, because the real facts will be more like he has saddled himself with an inferior woman (just like there are some inferior men when it comes to this). If I guy can’t see this well – fuck – I don’t know what to say – open your eyes and just fucking look around. This is not at all hard to see. Women generally take agency just fine when it suits their purposes. It has even happened at this site all the time. Fuck.

    Scray is right – what looks like “the vapid” among women is because the social environment rewards that (and imo, not sure if Scray agrees – men as a group are complicit in this arrangement). And on top of that, women have their own unique challenges wrt probably what is an innate addiction to status, and fierce amoral competition mainly among themselves wrt who among them (within groups) controls the status definitions (like right there is the evidence for women’s ontological capacity – wake up dudes). This schizophrenic way our culture is currently assembled (women pretending they are low-agency and therefore not responsible wrt matters for which men are directly involved in the exchanges) but then high-agency wrt their no-holds-barred status competition among themselves, pretty much explains the current shitshow. Men – we mainly be the dupes for this shit. This has been well known for a long time (Gone With The Wind, 1939 – Scarlett O’Hara – they wouldn’t be making movies like that if they didn’t know this obvious shit).

Speak your mind

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s