Up the Alpha

As expected the Alpha to Beta trait dichotomy was inferred from Last weeks post courtesy of commenter Ad Fortitudo:

Do you disagree with Athol Kay that the best option for a woman is a man with both alpha and beta traits?

That is to say, wouldn’t a man with great genes/physicality/confidence as well as financial stability and kindness be the “perfect man” for a woman?

Wouldn’t that satisfy both her short term and long term mating strategies?

I get the sense that it is in absence of men that have both traits that women seek out these different qualities in separate men under short and long term circumstances.

I covered this a long while ago in Schedules of Mating and as recently as Your Friend Menstruation. This want for the perfect amalgam of hot Alpha and parentally invested Beta is literally hard-coded into women’s brains and endocrine system. From the most rudimentary level, the conflict that  hypergamy instills in women is due to this want of fusing together the arousing Alpha with the attractive Beta in the same man. Thus was women’s pluralistic sexual strategy evolved.

The problem that confounds hypergamy is that the arousing Alpha and the attractive Beta rarely exist in the same male, at the same time and at the most opportune time for women to appreciate and capitalize on it. By this I mean that as women proceed through their peak SMV years, they place higher priorities and higher mating value upon predominately Alpha traits. These are the ‘fuck me now’ party years, and Alpha seed far out-values Beta need. As I wrote in Schedules of Mating, on a macro level this translates into a proactive form of cuckoldry. Even if it doesn’t result in a pregnancy, the latent urgency in a woman’s peak is to ‘get the seed first, find the provider later’ (i.e. protracted cuckoldry).

The fantasy for women of course is to ‘tame the savage Alpha’ and convert him into a parentally invested partner by encouraging Beta traits in him as he matures, and hopefully prospers. Many a thwarted single mommy knows the unfortunate outcome of attempting to ‘fix’ their Bad Boy Alpha into the Good Dad Father, but this is the emphasis assuming a woman pauses long enough to invest in one particular Alpha during her peak years. The base schema is to maintain that hot Alpha arousal, while developing him into a more attractive Beta provider.

As a woman approaches the downturn of her SMV that hypergamic urgency shifts to favor Beta providership traits as the prospect of long term security alters the priorities of her hypergamy. Now the script changes to one favoring the nice, dependable, and necessarily resourceful man with all the attractive features she needs for a commitment to long term security. It’s not that she doesn’t still become aroused by the physicality and charisma of a predominately Alpha male (particularly in her proliferate menstrual phase), but she is more aware of the balance between her lessened ability to attract that man (post-Wall) and the need to pair-bond with a man who can provide for her and her offspring. Women will mitigate this arousal-attraction imbalance with their own forms of pornography or self-initialized rationalization about their ‘deeper maturity’, but in essence the doubt that hypergamy seeds in them has to be held in check either through self-repression or by dread of loss.

The fantasy for women in this instance is the hope that their predominately Beta partner will “Man Up”, Just Get It on his own and develop more arousing Alpha traits as he matures. The base schema here is to maintain the sweet Beta provider attraction, while developing him into a more arousing Alpha as her needs demand.

Beta with a Side of Alpha

The inimitable Geisha Kate then helps solidify this analysis of her ‘Perfect Man’:

Great point. That ^ is the true manicorn. That is what I mean when I say I’ll take a “greater beta with fries.”

Be careful what you pray for Kate, the women (and Manboobz) who kvetch about the ‘overly sensitive men’ they committed to probably wished for the same. In fact I’d argue that the majority of married men now looking to Athol Kay for insight believed they were Greater Betas with a side of Alpha.

Kate’s in a  stage of life when the Beta providership male makes far better practical sense to pair off with. Just like Aunt Giggles, her definition of attraction and ‘a good relationship’ is biased by the personal conditions of her present SMP valuation. She understands this from her age, SMV and necessity perspective, but this undoubtedly wasn’t her perspective when she was in the prime of her SMV years.

This is the ‘build-a-better-beta‘ paradox:

The overarching  point is to create a more acceptable man for a female defined goal, NOT to truly empower any man. There is no feminine opposite to this; there is no counter effort to make women more acceptable to men – in fact this is actively resisted and cast as a form of slavish subservience. This is the extent of the feminine reality; it’s so instaurating that men, with the aid of  “concerned women”, will spend lifetimes seeking ways to better qualify themselves for feminine approval. That’s the better Beta they hope to create. One who will Man-Up and be the Alpha as situations and use would warrant, but Beta enough to be subservient to the feminine imperative. They seek a man to be proud of, one who’s association reflects a statement of their own quality, yet one they still have implicit control over.

Whether the reasonings are moral, entitlement or ‘honor bound’ in nature the end result is still feminine primacy. The sales pitch is one of manning up to benefit yourself, but the latent purpose is one of better qualifying for normalized feminine acceptance. What they cannot reconcile is that the same benefits that are inherent in becoming more Alpha (however you choose to define that) are the same traits that threaten his necessary position of subservience as a Beta. This is precisely why ‘real’ Game, and truly unplugging, cannot be sanitized. This social element wants to keep you plugged in; more Alpha, more confidence, more awareness, is a threat to fem-centrism. “It’s great that all this Game stuff has finally got you standing up for yourself, but remember who’s got the vagina.

I have a lot of respect for Athol, and not so much for Aunt Giggles, but the problem I see with both of their approaches in balancing Alpha with Beta is that they begin from a fem-centric origin. Athol seems to have the better take of the two, but by and large the men seeking his advice are Beta men who’ve been red-pill enlightened to the fact that they need to up the Alpha – presuming they had an Alpha element to start.

Aunt Giggles simply wants a Beta, who’s an Alpha of a woman’s convenience. Aunt Sue had a grand mal seizure orgasm when she’d thought Roissy was actually advocating that men genuinely become more Beta. She force fit it to comply with her build-a-better-beta narrative (CH suggests using Beta as an in-context Game tactic), but it only better illustrates her latent imperatives about a post-Wall, fem-centrically defined preference for Beta with a side of Alpha.

There is no side of Alpha. The conflict both Kate and Giggles don’t grasp is that Alpha demands dominance, and this doesn’t fit very well with the feminine imperative’s false religion of equalism. Athol understand this with his Captain and First Officer analogy; in any relationship one partner is the dominant personality, the other the submissive. Even homosexual couples recognize this order, but the women and men of the feminine Matrix resist this with the delusion of an equalist utopia amongst the genders.

So when I read about a desire for achieving some balance of Alpha to Beta traits in the ‘perfect man’ I realize that this is an extension of this feminine-primary equalist want for balance amongst the genders; which really equates to women wanting a perfected security. In their need for control (dominance) they want hypergamy definitively settled in the perfect man, for the perfect occasion, and at every stage of their SMV maturation. Men, mangina sympathizers or otherwise, are simply the means to that end. That end may be with the perfect husband, or via cuckolding or through fem-side pornography, or any other methodology women’s sexual pluralism will help her invent.

Up the Alpha

I’ve written this before, but it bears repeating: for men wanting to change their lives and relationships, working up from Beta to Alpha is a far tougher road to hoe that tempering Alpha dominance with a personalized touch of Beta. As bad as Hugo Schwyzer is in his abject feminization, have a read of a few of the female commenters in this article. How many of the simpering, socially conditioned, Betatized men these women seeth about would make for believable Alphas once they had a red pill epiphany? It is precisely because of this impressionistic, binary solipsism that women will never be happy with ‘fixing’ their Beta. This is why he has to Just Get It on his own.

It is a far better proposition to impress a woman with an organic Alpha dominance – Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with. This is why I stress Alpha traits above all else. It’s easy, and endearing to ‘reveal’ a flash of Beta sensitivity when a woman perceives you as predominantly Alpha. If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums at best, character flaws at worst.

Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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jlw
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What do you think about the Vox Day categories of delta, gamma, lamda, sigma, and omega? Are you more of a “purist” -seeing only the Alpha/Beta split, or do you recognize these other categories as being meaningful?

doclove
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That last line was perfect. Rollo Tommassi, Rational Male says, “Women may love the Beta, but only respect the Alpha.” I would only add that with maybe the rarest exception, that recieving love without recieving respect is totally worthless. This is especially true when a woman loves a man but does not respect him. Recieving any kind of love be that romantic, platonic etc. from a man without recieving respect is by far more likely to be worthwhile than recieving any kind of love without recieving respect from a woman.

christianplayer
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Basically, as a woman ages, I refer to it as the Baby-Financial agenda years. Usually (not always) an average woman will face financial difficulties and a ticking biological clock, and since she’s less attractive than she was when she was 18-25, she seeks “nicer” men. If she had unlimited fertile years, her body never physically declined, and money was never an issue, I think you would find that women would always prefer upper-alphas. But upper-alphas don’t server a woman with a strong baby-financial interest.

The Dude
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And when it comes to women…respect is far greater than love.

St. Paul got it right if you read his thoughts about marriage. Women can only respect their husbands by submitting to him, men can only love their wives by sacrificing for them. In that setup…neither partner is taking advantage over the other.

Animal Mother
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Brilliant Rollo, but the problem is women aren’t submissive anymore and she has the government in her corner once she becomes “unhappy”. Even if a man is a pure Alpha, she doesn’t need him or any man once the cash and prizes are secured. Her and her child aka “little man” are going to be just fine with daddy’s money.

Alpha Carousel > Alpha/Beta Marriage > Kids > Unhappy > Divorce with Cash/Prizes > Back to Alpha/Beta Carousel (depending on cycle)

Stingray
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Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

I got nailed for saying this exact thing once before. However, it is true. What I think a lot of men don’t realize, or at least attempt to forget in their subconscious, is that we can’t truly love (or at least be in love) without respect. If a man must choose respect or love from a woman, he should choose respect each and every time. Respect can breed love. Love alone will not breed respect.

PeterLeBrocke
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‘You can’t be half a gangster’

Dillon
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This whole Alpha/Beta debate reminds me of a good friend in my college days. He fell in love with a way overpriced used truck with electrical (and other) issues at a dealer lot. I adviced him against showing too much interest but he didn’t listen and ended up agreeing on full asking price plus financing with minimum payment possible. A terrible deal. When I was driving him over to pick up the truck from the lot, he kept worrying if he should pay the $900 down in cash or cheque. This whole Alpha/Beta debate is similar to the scenario above.… Read more »

The Dude
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I also understand the “Just getting it” now. The last thing you want to do is to ask a woman what you need to do to fix whatever problem she has with you in the relationship. 9 times out of 10…the problem is you are being too beta.

The Dude
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I think a good movie that illustrates how you can transform from a Beta to an Alpha is Fight Club. If you never saw it Edward Norton was a beta male who was fed up with his life and created an alter ego played by Brad Pitt who was an Alpha. The movie is basically Edward Norton transforming his personality…until the end when he is completely alpha and kills the alter ego because he didn’t need it anymore.

Zeus
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“Western man has already made a very bad social deal by providing all benefits of a marriage like security, comfort, food, utilities etc through forced taxation (welfare/laws/technology) but without getting benefits of marrage in return. ” And these alleged benefits of marriage are? Would you have women go hungry, homeless and unprotected just so that you begin to look like a good alternative? “Alpha/Beta debate is foolish since men already have lost. Its only negotiating the terms of payment on a very bad deal.” A bad deal….really? But I suppose it depends on which side of the coin you’re on.… Read more »

Hero
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I agree with the tact to “stress Alpha traits above all else”. It’s amazing how women will treat men differently depending on the man’s frame. If he’s in a beta frame, flashes of alpha will be seen as childish and be laughed at by her and her friends. If he’s in an alpha frame, revelations of beta will be seen as cute and rationalized in a way that allows her to defended him and his “character flaws”. I think this speaks to another important side effect of the alpha arousal dynamic. Women are not motivated to help men when he… Read more »

Dillon
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And these alleged benefits of marriage are? Would you have women go hungry, homeless and unprotected just so that you begin to look like a good alternative? Yes, I have no problem with this. If they want something, they have to give something. It stands to reason that one of the three women I’m currently ‘dating’ are at the expense of someone else’s missed opportunity. But really, life’s not fair. Three women? If you say so. No missed opportunity for other men though. We can all take turns right? Don’t get me wrong, I fully support the player lifestyle but… Read more »

gregg
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Self esteem and sense of manhood of such “alpha” is so inextricably and pathetically linked to pussies and approval of women. He is only better slave.

peoplegrowing
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“Western man has already made a very bad social deal by providing all benefits of a marriage like security, comfort, food, utilities etc through forced taxation (welfare/laws/technology) but without getting benefits of marrage in return. ” And these alleged benefits of marriage are? Would you have women go hungry, homeless and unprotected just so that you begin to look like a good alternative? This sounds suspiciously like fem-centric hyperbole, although the rest of your post makes your exact stance unclear, at least, by my reading. Once upon a time the alleged benefits were sex for the man, security for the… Read more »

Booch Paradise
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I think that there is some confusion on Athol Kay’s use of the word beta. It’s come to mean several things depending on which blogger you’re reading, and then even in the same article. The bad sort of beta comes from a mindset of fear shame and insecurity, and is most characterized by supplication. Athol Kay does not advocate this in any way shape or form from what I’ve read. So there is a huge difference between a beta orbiter staying up late with a girl, watching chick flicks with her because she just got dumped, and a husband doing… Read more »

Mark Minter
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The live-in girlfriend is haranguing her alpha boyfriend about how he “incorrectly” loads the dishwasher. The alpha gets up and walks out of the house.

He returns the next morning at 6am, with lipstick on his face and smelling of alcohol.

The girlfriend snarls “You better have a good explanation as to why you are coming home at 6 in the morning.”

The alpha replies “Breakfast.”

Rollo Tomassi
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@Booch, I agree, there is definitely a floating definition of Beta almost to the same extent as Alpha. But just like an Alpha mindset, Beta is as Beta does. Buying flowers and expressing your love in rare measured doses reinforces a predominant Alpha personality because it makes him ‘human’ and accessible. Buying flowers and expressing your love in grandiose displays in the context of meriting a reciprocal love reeks of Beta and confirms a predominantly Beta personality. There are countless other examples of crossover like this, but the operative is Beta is as Beta does. Despite all behavioral evidence to… Read more »

Ad Fortitudo
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Thanks for pointing out your past work on this subject, and shedding some additional light on it here. (I’ve definitely read these past posts of yours, but seem to associate the Alpha-Beta mix idea with Athol. Full credit to you for having addressed it as well.) If I follow you properly then, here is what you believe: 1) A mixture of alpha/beta is optimal 2) But, this mix will only work for the alpha who throws in some beta behaviors (not the other way around) So the heart of your project must be turning betas into alphas. The question is… Read more »

Lad
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jlw, (obviously not speaking for Rollo) My personal take on Vox Day’s terms is that they make sense for him and his writing, but I don’t use them personally. The alpha/beta scale (as borrowed from zoology) is primarily a measure of social dominance. Sometimes it’s defined in terms reproductive fitness. Those are broad definitions in a limited in scope. In other words, alpha describes only social dominance, but describes ALL social dominance. Alpha describes only sexual attraction, but describes ALL sexual attraction. The Vox provides narrow definitions with an unlimited scope. Vox-Alpha doesn’t just describe social dominance, but sexual and… Read more »

The Dude
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Betas can turn into alphas…it’s along the lines of an overweight person having to work out hard and eat right to lose weight. It takes work, patience, and the motivation to do it…but it can be done.

Wholesale personality changes can occur in people. The worst kind is post traumatic stress disorder.

Rollo Tomassi
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I’d cosign Lad’s estimation of Vox’s definitions. There is a want to classify Alpha in terms of demographics and/or personality types as I’ve detailed here: https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/alpha/ As a behaviorist with an emphasis on personality studies the first thing I’ll tell you is personality isn’t static. Your sigma or lambda is tomorrow’s delta or alpha, depending on his luck and the amount of his lottery winnings. My take on the Alpha dynamic is that Alpha is a mindset not a demographic. I’ve known far too many Leaders of Men® who were sniveling Betas and only held their status by blind luck… Read more »

necorochi
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Amen

Ad Fortitudo
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@booch:

I agree that there’s a problem of definitions.

Here’s a few of the common ones:

– Strong vs. weak

– Cad vs. dad

– Jerk vs. nice guy

– Procreator vs. provider

– Leader vs follower.

I’m still not sure that I find any of these satisfactory; in many cases, the line placed between alpha and beta leaves many good qualities on the wrong side of the division.

(case in point: I’m not convinced that kindness is actually bad, but rather obsequiousness and deference.)

Mark Minter
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I was reading the Red Pill Blog (It’s a very good blog if you have never read it. I highly recommend his article on The Female Social Matrix. It is very long. Here is a link to it: http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/05/female-social-matrix-introduction.html ). The writer is another guy that has been married for 21 years. One of his articles says you can’t be alpha part of the time. His wife says “Foreplay begins in the morning when your feet hit the floor after you wake up” He begins this list of things you should do: That means being the leader every day. That… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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I can’t begin to explain how many times I’ve answered this question on SoSuave: “Rollo, was it Beta of me to [fill in the activity] for my girlfriend?” There are very few expressly Beta or expressly Alpha behaviors. I’ve seen chumps meekishly hang onto their GF’s purses while they’re in the Macy’s dressing rooms, and I’ve seen Alphas (true story) hold their GF’s purse and then, without looking at her, toss it to her so it landed square in her chest like he just took the snap and pitched the purse to his running back. Generally, it’s not a behavior… Read more »

GeishaKate
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“this undoubtedly wasn’t her perspective when she was in the prime of her SMV years” No, without guidance, I don’t think nineteen year olds have much perspective. The silver lining is knowing what I know now for my daughter’s sake. The reason I had used the term “greater beta” was from a chart Roissy made. The change from greater beta to alpha was what made me say, no, don’t want that. The difference was one of morals. It all comes down to our definitions of alpha and beta which has already been done to death. Real betas (if there are… Read more »

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[…] newest post Up The Alpha made me realize American society is following the Japanese grass eaters. Women are encouraging […]

Dreamer
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I’m right now thinking about beta-ness, niceness, and alpha-ness. I’m just thinking about this aspect as the Kate’s quote is conflating two aspects. They are all highly connected. Beta-ness with a side of Alpha just does not make sense. Authority by definition means the ability to exert influence in some form. The beta by definition have no authority. A beta cannot be a beta if the beta is taken seriously in the whatever context. This should mean “niceness” is a side quality, Though wholly correlated, it is completely interpreted to the given level of authority. Hero’s comment above illustrate this… Read more »

chief
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Mark Minter knows whats up.

Was thinking this the other day. I cant be fucked jumping through all these hoops. What a mission to keep a woman. Sex is great but the trade off for less of it with more free time on my hands to surf/earn money/enjoy life?

Whats the point.

Dark wolf
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Dark wolf
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Mark Minter, your post should be required reading for all men before they get married. A++++++

Peregrine John
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To answer several queries above and augment some statements made, let me tell you unequivocally: Change happens, both naturally and intentionally. Let me tell you a little story. I began as Vox’s notion of Gamma. Awkward, introverted, in no normal way attractive but attracting now and then in spite of my dorkitude, it was a strange existence, and being unusual has never fazed me since. In late high school and early college I was a pathetic beta, and I do mean pathetic: romantic, bitter, needy, horrible. And yet I pulled above my station in life now and then. Then, something… Read more »

In The Frigid North
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From a practical perspective, what you point out here is the one-directional thinking women have regarding “changing a man.” When women think they can change a man, they think of making the alpha more beta, never making the beta more alpha. Fits in well with women’s typical apex fallacy thinking, and that sex drives the relationship as opposed to vice versa.

It’s an important distinction to know when seeking or first forming relationships, what many are here about – when in doubt, be the alpha she can blunt instead of the beta who she won’t bother to sharpen.

The Dude
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I agree about not making pussy the reward for becoming an alpha personality. I made the change a few months ago…since then,

I was promoted at my job to a higher management status.
I’ve lost 15 pounds and 4% body fat.
I’ve become a much better dancer (a hobby I took up several months before).
I’m more extroverted…with strangers both men and women.
My mind is at peace. Instead of beating myself up all the time.
I take on the world…I don’t react to it.

Ad Fortitudo
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Rollo said:

“it’s not a behavior that’s Alpha or Beta, but the context in which it happens. It’s about the actor, not the act.”

This calibration of one’s behavior to match the context sounds an awful lot like “good judgement.”

So, is it the case that the problem with betas isn’t that they’re “kind” but “kind” in the wrong context (that is, all of them)?

And that they display no strength?

I get the impression that what women want (even need?) is a man who is strong, decisive, courageous, and witty, but also kind and financially stable…. all in good measure.

Ad Fortitudo
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@Peregrine John & The Dude:

Cool to hear that game is working for you.

How’d you do it?

kellytaddea
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All men should have to live one year as a woman. One reason to be with a man is to get away from the world of women because of the insistence on conformity for inclusion which is basically saying that we must subvert are own individuality to the group, being a woman is like living in a communist country 24/7 where your value is determined by your relationship to the group and it sucks the life out of your soul. Compared to men, women are hyper-competitive. Being a woman sucks because of other women so when there are problems with… Read more »

nek
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What I find funny about Mark Minter’s comments is that there is so much unbridled truth in them, yet if you see how the discussion goes on after his comment it’s as if people didn’t take the time to read his comment. IT’S ALL THERE!!! Debate over. I think some of the people here are still trying to discuss this dynamic of 2 dash alpha 1 tablespoon beta (esp. some of the women) in an effort to hold on to hope that they can either be that perfect guy (the men) or they can find that perfect guy (the women),… Read more »

The Dude
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@kelly

Most if not all men don’t really want you to change. We just have the same problem with women that you have in that they want US to change too.

Hence why you have a lot of screwed up men these days who think a women’s advice for relationships is helpful. If only they knew that women’s advice is the quickest way to ruin a relationship.

Booch Paradise
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Perhaps the way to think of how Athol Kay uses the term beta would to think of the comfort portion of Mystery’s attraction, comfort, seduction paradigm. But I get what you’re saying. One can’t take beta traits such as insecurity, shame, etc, and just add some alpha in terms of confidence, and pride.

Mike C
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As a behaviorist with an emphasis on personality studies the first thing I’ll tell you is personality isn’t static. Your sigma or lambda is tomorrow’s delta or alpha, depending on his luck and the amount of his lottery winnings. My take on the Alpha dynamic is that Alpha is a mindset not a demographic. Rollo, One positive of this view in my opinion is it gives a guy hope to change or at least something to work towards/strive for. If it is demographic like Alpha equals N over some number which I think is a component of Vox’s definition, it… Read more »

Mike C
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This post is gold…as I think you are hitting on some deep truths that are not understood especially by women themselves. I went round and round and round with Susan and some other female commenters about “attraction” especially when they told me that playing with a kid in the park makes a man more “attractive”. I was like “Really, you are going to want to fuck me more because I am patting some kid on the head”. When I say a 21-year old with perky tits, small waist, and tight ass is “attractive” it directly implies some aspect of sexual… Read more »

Ronin
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Women do not fall in love but fall in respect and women do not love men, homosexuals love men. Women love themselves.

AlphaWhiskey
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In my view, the caveat to Mark Minter’s diatribe is if at some point you wish to have kids. It’s proven that kids do best in a dual parent household, and we would all want our kids to have the best chance of survival/success, no? Secondly, all you folks bitching about 2 tablespoons of alpha and 1 teaspoon of beta and how ridiculous this all is, are right…*IF* you were giving it that much thought on a daily basis. You all might be forgetting that Rollo breaks things down to the most finite level. Sure you might have to think… Read more »

Tobin Rote
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This might be fucked-up, but one thing I’ll do is tie “beta” behavior to sexual situations. For example, compliment her facial features while she’s blowing you, or as she collapses in exhaustion after good sex. Or if she’s treated you exceptionally well in the sack, bring her flowers the next day. Just to anchor those good feelings of “tame the alpha” onto a sexual state. And one key thing to realize is that when you meet a new woman, she’ll alpha you up in her own mind. She’ll imagine other female competitors (who may not exist), she’ll play it as… Read more »

zekeschrempf
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Rollo should be proud getting a reaction out of limp-wristed white knight Hugo Schwyzer:

https://twitter.com/hugoschwyzer/status/253173111413960704

nek
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Mike C, “I think women themselves don’t internally understand the difference between what you are getting at here in attraction versus sexual arousal. I actually think there is an element of self-denial in perhaps some guilt is felt that is the alpha traits that trigger the purely arousal part.” Since in reality women are going to see men as either one or the other (cad vs. dad), and since no guy really wants to be seen as ‘dad’ and not ‘cad’, the party line that women use is that they are attracted to petting the head on the kid in… Read more »

Tobin Rote
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@ Mike C To be honest, I think this kind of thing is a step forward. Only the anonymity of the Internet has allowed women to admit that a good-looking guy carrying his cute son gets their shorts stinky. (In this age, a genuine father-son family is so rare it’s becoming alpha as fuck.) I’ve never heard any woman say anything like this in person, it’s far too close to a bio-truth for women to confess. But you’re right, most women have no idea what they’re really attracted to. “It just happened.” They’ve even demonstrated it with studies where women… Read more »

nek
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“Secondly, all you folks bitching about 2 tablespoons of alpha and 1 teaspoon of beta and how ridiculous this all is, are right…*IF* you were giving it that much thought on a daily basis. You all might be forgetting that Rollo breaks things down to the most finite level. Sure you might have to think about it at first if you aren’t a natural, but then by rote it will become instinctive, unconscious behavior. ” Good breakdown. It’s not so much the thinking about how much of this or that which is the underlying issue, but reading the comments I… Read more »

FFY
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@zekeschrempf

What the fuck is guffawed-out? God he is such a bitch

Mike C
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Mike C
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“Since in reality women are going to see men as either one or the other (cad vs. dad), and since no guy really wants to be seen as ‘dad’ and not ‘cad’, the party line that women use is that they are attracted to petting the head on the kid in order to keep the ‘dad’ guys on ice until they’re ready to settle down. Otherwise, if women came outright and said “Well I’m not actually pining for you but I need you as my safety net in the future” very few men would be willing to play that part.… Read more »

Mike C
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Mike C
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But you’re right, most women have no idea what they’re really attracted to. “It just happened.” They’ve even demonstrated it with studies where women claim not to be attracted to certain kinds of porn, while the probes say differently. Vox had a good post on this recently. http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/10/business-game.html The publishers almost surely believed that by giving women what they were actively demanding, they would benefit from in the form of more positive press and increased sales. They got the more positive press they were expecting, as the media around the world covered their action favorably. But they didn’t get the… Read more »

Mark Minter
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I love this blog so much and have such respect for Rollo Tomassi that if I won the lottery tomorrow, one of my first things that I would do would be send Rollo an email and ask what he needs to get his book done. The philanthropic thing that I would do with some of the winnings, that thing that a winner should do to insure the betterment of mankind, would be to insure that he gets published, that he has all the publicists, all the stops on The Today Show, Good Morning America, that all the right critics give… Read more »

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Dean Joseph
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Dean Joseph
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I think that it’s overkill. Either you a “Man” or not, simple and plain.

finndistan
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finndistan
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Dillon’s comment deserves a standing ovation. 4 or 5 lines can only explain so much.

Twan
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Twan
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first, mark minter, holy fuck. eye opening. seriously. second, i was the biggest beta until a couple of months ago. earlier this year, i was dumped by a girl that i had “achieved”. hot as shit, fun, funny, smart, and a fucking bitch. yeah, she loved me, but i beta’d so hard that she fell out of love, and when she dumped me it was because she “didn’t see a future with me”. after months of crying and depression, i moved apartments (i live in tel aviv and this place is fucking CRAWLING with trim) to a fun neighborhood, and… Read more »

Mark Minter
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@AlphaWhiskey I deserve to have my comment called a “disatribe”. It does contain that ranting bitterness that most women in the blogosphere dismiss as the vitriolic rambling of the male divorcee. I agree that if you want to have children that a dual parent household is the best environment. But you do not have the say over whether that will happen. Men are just “Dancing Monkeys” for women and almost every activity that a typical young man does is to prepare himself to be chosen by a woman and then to lay his offering at the feet of the goddess… Read more »

Ad Fortitudo
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Ad Fortitudo
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One of the reasons that I asked this question, is that the only Super-Alpha I know happens to be one of the nicest guys I know. I genuinely think that niceness has at least a little to do with his success. Granted, the guy has plenty of other things going for him: over 6′, jacked, has no approach anxiety, and he’s a surgeon out of Johns Hopkins. At the same time though, he’s one of the most affable people I know, and I suspect that his success would be hindered if he was a dick. Perhaps more to the point:… Read more »

ssdon
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ssdon
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/03/feminist-author-hanna-rosin-end-of-men_n_1934891.html

So is a Alpha male a ‘carboard man’ or is the Beta male a ‘cardboard man’?

I have never hestiated at being more educated or making more money…i even do the dishes myself!

The Dude
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The Dude
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@ Mark Minter… What you said resonates with what St. Paul says in the New Testament. It is better for men to be single and focus on God. The only reason women get involved is because of our lust for them. It’ll never resonate with women and beta men…but women need men a hell of a lot more than men need women. We have logic, we have reason, we have power, we have leadership, we keep our emotions in check for the most part, we have everything a woman wishes she had. Women bring a womb to the table to… Read more »

gregg
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gregg
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@ Mark. Hehe. “Women, for so long, were this mirror that I used to judge myself, how they viewed me, how they accepted or rejected was so instrumental of my self esteem and in the determination of my actions.” THIS IS MATRIX. For women to be able to choose, THE OFFER HAS TO BE THERE, it has to be given, it has to be as unconditional as possible. Given that women are limiting factor of procreation, MEN are constructed to have no other option but court them, in order to maximize procreation. Therefore – self esteem of men and their… Read more »

Stingray
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Stingray
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I think women themselves don’t internally understand the difference between what you are getting at here in attraction versus sexual arousal. I actually think there is an element of self-denial in perhaps some guilt is felt that is the alpha traits that trigger the purely arousal part. They don’t get it, fully anyway. Add to that anti-slut defense and there you go. It’s acceptable to find dads attractive and not acceptable to find masculinity arousing. Masculinity, to most, is still intrinsically tied up in the cad in todays culture. The thing is, masculinity /= cad, but many cads are masculine.… Read more »

The Dude
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The Dude
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@ gregg…

Getting away from my emotional responses from women and my body is why I got into game. At first I saw it as a way to get women, later as I dug deeper I saw it as a way to become the best man I can be. The frame changed. I’ve had far more rewards for myself and not one included getting a woman.

“It’s only after you’ve lost everything that you’re free to do anything.”

Stingray
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Stingray
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To extract from matrix, man have to extract from his slavish emotional responses coming form his manly body, first. He must master himself. This is freedom. After this, he could use women as he pleases, they have no more power over him.

This is it right here. All of it. Anything you are doing for improvement should be for yourselves. A women’s opinion on the matter is irrelevant, unless you decide otherwise.

Animal Mother
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Animal Mother
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@ Mark Minter You put into words every ounce of thought as to the justification behind my most diffcult decision to not marry and have a family with a woman. The risks far outweigh the rewards and the behavior of women as a whole is disgusting. I have recently adopted the Fuck them attitude and only care about my interests and living a happy fulfilling life. I now use women as a means for pleasure, nothing more. When a man truly views the real nature of women from this perspective, he begins to pursue a real purpose in life. I… Read more »

Jacquie
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Jacquie
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@Twan third, and in regard to this piece from today… with all this negativity being spoken when referring to marriages, i wonder what the dynamic is between the two side in a “successful” marriage. meaning, you know when you see couples that truly look happy, even after decades of being together, always into each other, always happy to be around each other, a real match. i’m just wondering outloud what they posess that other couples don’t. is it that he is just so alpha, and the higher value is maintained throughout? just curious to hear opinions on this I can… Read more »

The Dude
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The Dude
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Another thought about attraction isn’t arousal…

For men we are aroused by women, but it would be better to not be attracted to their nature. If you know the truth about them, you wouldn’t be. At least with men we can be attracted to each other through friendships because we know what men like (respect, admiration, keeping to the code).

Women are attracted to other women (or beta males)…but will never be sexually aroused by them. They are only aroused by men who don’t have an inkling…or who don’t care about what the feminie side is about.

Jason773
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Jason773
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Mike C,

Off topic, but you do equities and/or options trading, right? Could you recommend a few books on either the market, options, general economics, etc. that you have found helpful? Thanks

Rollo Tomassi
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Re; Mark Minter, I read what you’re saying and I can’t find much to disagree with, however, I will quote Roissy here: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/the-unbearable-triteness-of-hating/ 16. Dancing Monkey Hate Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women. If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are… Read more »

rgoltn
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rgoltn
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You are probably right. “Women may love the Beta, but only respect the Alpha.” I have been with my wife for 17 years and i ascribe to Athol’s MMSL model. I am more Beta than Alpha; I always have been. However, I realized that in my life, I have flowed between the two at different stages. I was far more Beta when I started college and by my junior year, flowed to more Alpha with confidence and swagger. I figured things out when the girl I chased for 2 years suddenly had to have me after I stopped supplicating to… Read more »

Animal Mother
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Animal Mother
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@ Rollo

If I had unlimited resources like Tiger Woods and other Professional athletes the escort route seems far more appealing

Dreamer
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Dreamer
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I know you been asked multiple times in many forms and there’s posts here that responds to the said comments. But since you co-signed, I need to ask this to understand better in this context. Mark post have a message to living life for himself and I’m not talking about that. You already addressed the “MGTOW” tone of the post with the dancing monkey. What about the main message about marriage? Not the message about avoiding it. But the message of slavery and the implicit message of the impossibility of intimacy through the illustration of his parents and grandparents no… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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Read this first, it might clear things up better than me typing out a long response:

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/fidelity/

AlphaWhiskey
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AlphaWhiskey
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Man I have been reading this blog for about a year now and this is one of the best yet in terms of comments. Mark, my diatribe comment was not meant in a derogatory way, and in fact when I said ” the caveat”, I should’ve said “the one caveat”, as I by and far agree with everything else you wrote. I also agree with you that procreation is a completely optional choice for the truly aware Red Pill Man. In fact, as my last LTR was desperately begging me to stay with and marry her, she said “we don’t… Read more »

AlphaWhiskey
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AlphaWhiskey
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Also, Rollo – take a look:

http://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html

Some of her statements parallel and support your writings, but I thought the notion of “modern females returning to equality” such as it was on the African plains, was quite laughable. The gatherers may or may not have been bringing home half the food, but we all know which gender was warding off the sabre-tooth tigers…

mikec74
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mikec74
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Mike C, Off topic, but you do equities and/or options trading, right? Could you recommend a few books on either the market, options, general economics, etc. that you have found helpful? Thanks Jason Yes, I’ve got a pretty big library of investment/trading books in my home office…probably around 100 books. IIRC, you were a business/finance major so you already have the basics of finance and accounting down I would assume. Here are a few good books that really drill down on specifics of analyzing a stock or trading For individual company analysis, get both of Peter Lynch’s books Beating the… Read more »

Cesare
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Cesare
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Great post, great comments. I can only speak from my own experience and from my observation it isn’t at all a question of what women want. That is by force of grammar alone a static definition. In my life the problem has been more along the lines that what they want changes at any given moment for reasons that are not entirely clear to them. The Hamster, or at least those I have come across has a very, very short attention span.

Dreamer
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Dreamer
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I read it again. It part of why I started with “been asked multiple times” and “posts here that responds to said comments.” But in this case, it’s just not satisfactory. The final sentences answers that you understood the costs and risks and did it anyway because you want the ideal. That you rather have take the shot for the best reward rather than the best balance between reward and risks. However, it does not satisfy because, frankly, by the given definition, you are a slave! The linked post is in focus on the same area, but does not address… Read more »

Jason773
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Jason773
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MikeC, I’m actually a chemical engineer, but I would like to get more of an in depth view of the market and trading. I already have a basic understanding, as my best friend is an options trader on the CBT and I try to pick his brain a lot, but never hurts to keep learning. I also plan on going to B-school in a few years so it will help in that area too. I’ll definitely take a look at the books you recommend and see what I can absorb. Rollo, if you could give me Mike’s email, or vice… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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For the guys who are saying something like “keeping a woman aroused is too much work, why bother?”, I think you are having a failure of imagination due to a sour grapes attitude. You ask the question as if it’s rhetorical, instead of stretching out past your current experience to imagine one where it would be worth it. What if becoming a dominant personality who is highly skilled with women were possible? What if after many many years and many many women, it were no longer an imposition upon your attention, but a hobby that you enjoy? We have many… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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I think men have idealizations about marriage that are fed to them during their blue pill upbringings, and not until they have their “now what?” moment after they get married do they realize what marriage is all about. As most divorced men will attest, there is certainly a terrible risk and high probability for personal life-lasting devastation inherent in marriage. Is it a raw deal? Yes. Will women ever appreciate the gravity of the risk men assume in marriage? No. But just as your Up movie illustration exemplifies, men still want to get married. Even thrice divorced men, still think… Read more »

gregg
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gregg
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to this all marriage as slavery topic: I DO agree, that as long as we are doing it fully informed, from the position of strenght and freedom, there are no limits and there is nothing “wrong” or “right”. If the guy wants to marry and have children, be it. If this is his mission, great, let him have it. If he wants to be single with fuck buddies, so be it. If he wants to be alone, pursue freedom and start a spriritual path, let him embrace it. Just do it like mature men. But there is no “if you… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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There is a reason men don’t want a love slave. It’s because you’ve been conditioned to never even imagine it. The very possibility has been beaten out of you by feminism and the feminine imperative since you first squirted into the world. I was 29 when I first visited Bali on a business trip. A cute 26 year old girl insisted I stay at her place. It was here that I got my first sight of how Indonesians handle servants. Quite an eye opener. “Go prepare me a dish of cut up fruit.” Can you imagine? A servant? Shocking. It… Read more »

gregg
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gregg
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xsplat – listen man, you are enjoing acquisitive mode and you are enthusiastic like little boy You have not experienced it before, or what? This mode lasts thill she catches the man – and the purpose of it is to be whatever the situation calls for to catch the man. I witnessed it many times in my women even in my country. But we are NOT discussing the acquisitive mode – we are discussing MARRIAGE, understand? We are discussing the relationship in which women is no more in acquisitive mode, she already succeeded in catching her man. After this, deeper… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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Gregg: some people prolong the acquisitive mode, then leave the girl after a year or two for the next. Serial monogamy. Or parallel monogamy. It’s an option. They way I hear the anti marriage guys talk is that there are only two options. Avoid intimacy altogether or be a chump slave who gets taken to the cleaners. I’m pointing out a male centric view of relationships that is a third option. Have you ever heard anyone else point out this option? Do you think it’s a good one? More appealing than pump and dump, to those who can pull it… Read more »

The Dude
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The Dude
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What ruined marriage is when the government got involved. No fault divorce, and the courts being on the side of women. Way back in the old days a woman couldn’t divorce her husband…seemed like the smart thing to do.

It makes me wonder why homosexuals want the government to get involved with their setup. Or how a divorce lawyer would handle the split…give everything to the more feminine partner????

gregg
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gregg
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xsplat I have been doing this myself for years. Now I am much more careful. I do not advice manipulating emotion of women for a long time, because it is very painful for her when she becomes disilusioned and women in acquisitive mode is apt to do some irrational and potentially dangerous things even to herself – all in desperate attempt of “catching those genes”. I understand your point but I think that those men WANT to marry, moreover they NEED to marry and they NEED to have those children and family. Therefore it is all or nothing for them.… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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Yes, women do crazy things when they realize they aren’t going to get you to marry them. That’s why in order to date the man must take care of his anonymity and portability. The lifestyle is a gestalt – you can’t just take your favorite piece of it. As to the pain that women feel – well – that’s life. There is no way to avoid either a painful breakup or the relationship turning painfully boring or some sort of eventual negative outcome. Either the pain will be on the man’s terms, or the womans. Sometimes we switch it up.… Read more »

Dreamer
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Dreamer
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“By your definition I’m slave, but I don’t feel like one.” Well, there’s the answer. If you don’t feel like a slave, then you’re not. The story of Mark is a story of misery. Working in a field and in an environment that he hates. The money gained is used for things he does not want to spend. Going home to a wife who seems to have never really love/aroused/attracted to him. The key theme is misery. Created because everything he does in the day is not what he wants to do. Working in something, but against his desires. Spending,… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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I guess what I’m saying Gregg is that I believe that men have intimacy needs that can only be met through sexual and emotional intimacy with women. Any solution to a life well lived has to take that into account.

I believe that solutions that don’t are inadequate.

I believe that men who propose solutions that don’t include intimacy to do so because they don’t believe that satisfying intimacy is possible. Sour grapes, in other words.

Soltero en Madrid
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Very good advice.

Wesley Dabney
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alphas don’t have tantrums.. so i fail to see your point. alpha’s are cool under pressure, calm in the storm. they preform tasks effortlessly. there are many ways a beta can present flashes of alpha and none of them require a tantrum. i’m thinking you are operating from Naomi Wolf’s definition of alpha.. which couldn’t be more wrong. she caused al gore to lose his chance at becoming president because she taught him to “throw tantrums” on stage and at one point crossed the stage and almost threw some papers at bush. bush remained calm and un-flustered throughout the debate… Read more »

gregg
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gregg
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xsplat my last comment, concerning this post, I have already written too much and according to my point of view, all has been said, several times. Of course, men have intimacy and emotional needs. We are born that and we are made that way. But please take into account possible tranformation that might come form experiencens, knowledge, etc. There are things in this word that coud change those “needs” you are born with. Therefore we have men that pursue spiritual path completely without women, therefore we have men that are living without women, cos they honestly do not want any.… Read more »

Rellz
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Rellz
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Ok another excellent reason to stay single, the comments are what keep me coming back here @ mark minter..awesome post… Women can rewrite history to work with their current emotions. Like for instance, replace I will love you forever in sickness and in health, to ‘TODAY I FEEL Like I will love you forever…blah’ you get the point. My ex-wife was a miserable polar disorder depressive person (threating sucicide) and constantly moping around, sucked the life right outta me for years…Can’t please someone or have a life with some who doesn’t actually want to live. She left me for a… Read more »

Marcellus
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Marcellus
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What you guys describe as “alpha” is just the guy who screws a lot of woman. You guys have a very idialized image about this kind of guy. He is strong, he’s a leader… All bullshit. The ONLY thing alpha’s have in common is that they screw a lot of woman. Why? Because they project attraction. Most alphas are stupid as fuck but you want to be around them because they are never boring. They project a certain kind of “energy”. This starts to happens when girls are 13 (!!). They have their first sexpartner. The alphas have their first… Read more »

Wesley Dabney
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i read mark minter’s rant and the only thing i came away with is he needs therapy to cure his bitterness. it should not be required reading for any healthy man. while i can relate to his troubles with women, what it boils down to is you’ve been picking the wrong women and getting hurt by them. then you allow yourself to believe all women are the same to protect your damaged emotions and justify putting shields up. relationships are hard. it’s taken me a year to get it right with my g/f. it took some therapy on my part… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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I’m getting the feeling that I’m imposing on you Gregg by pinpointing issues that you don’t have the mood to discuss. But you last comment brought up two issues I didn’t want to let lie there. 1) The idea of using women up 2) The idea of having had enough women, and now being at a more spiritual place where they aren’t needed. 1. I do take the best years of a womans life. But only a few of them. When I talk to girls years later I rarely hear any regret from them about it. Instead I hear of… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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Also, I’m sensing an element of “We men don’t need you as much as you need us! If you won’t play by our good ol time valued rules, I’m taking my ball and going home. That’ll teach you!” retributive justice emotion going on from the guys who resonate strongly with Marks life story.

I just don’t see that as the best option to enjoy life. It seems like an initial step along the path to enjoying women, not the best way to deal with women.

It’s avoidant.

Brendan
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Brendan
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People are different, xsplat. I know you basically disagree with that — I remember that from your posts on Roissy way back when. But some of us are really not that interested in women at this stage in our lives. I have a GF myself, but if I didn’t it wouldn’t be a problem or concern for me. I didn’t for years after my divorce, and it didn’t bother me. I happened across my current GF, but didn’t seek her out, or any other woman out. SO, yeah, I was open to it, but if it didn’t happen, I would… Read more »

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