Up the Alpha

As expected the Alpha to Beta trait dichotomy was inferred from Last weeks post courtesy of commenter Ad Fortitudo:

Do you disagree with Athol Kay that the best option for a woman is a man with both alpha and beta traits?

That is to say, wouldn’t a man with great genes/physicality/confidence as well as financial stability and kindness be the “perfect man” for a woman?

Wouldn’t that satisfy both her short term and long term mating strategies?

I get the sense that it is in absence of men that have both traits that women seek out these different qualities in separate men under short and long term circumstances.

I covered this a long while ago in Schedules of Mating and as recently as Your Friend Menstruation. This want for the perfect amalgam of hot Alpha and parentally invested Beta is literally hard-coded into women’s brains and endocrine system. From the most rudimentary level, the conflict that  hypergamy instills in women is due to this want of fusing together the arousing Alpha with the attractive Beta in the same man. Thus was women’s pluralistic sexual strategy evolved.

The problem that confounds hypergamy is that the arousing Alpha and the attractive Beta rarely exist in the same male, at the same time and at the most opportune time for women to appreciate and capitalize on it. By this I mean that as women proceed through their peak SMV years, they place higher priorities and higher mating value upon predominately Alpha traits. These are the ‘fuck me now’ party years, and Alpha seed far out-values Beta need. As I wrote in Schedules of Mating, on a macro level this translates into a proactive form of cuckoldry. Even if it doesn’t result in a pregnancy, the latent urgency in a woman’s peak is to ‘get the seed first, find the provider later’ (i.e. protracted cuckoldry).

The fantasy for women of course is to ‘tame the savage Alpha’ and convert him into a parentally invested partner by encouraging Beta traits in him as he matures, and hopefully prospers. Many a thwarted single mommy knows the unfortunate outcome of attempting to ‘fix’ their Bad Boy Alpha into the Good Dad Father, but this is the emphasis assuming a woman pauses long enough to invest in one particular Alpha during her peak years. The base schema is to maintain that hot Alpha arousal, while developing him into a more attractive Beta provider.

As a woman approaches the downturn of her SMV that hypergamic urgency shifts to favor Beta providership traits as the prospect of long term security alters the priorities of her hypergamy. Now the script changes to one favoring the nice, dependable, and necessarily resourceful man with all the attractive features she needs for a commitment to long term security. It’s not that she doesn’t still become aroused by the physicality and charisma of a predominately Alpha male (particularly in her proliferate menstrual phase), but she is more aware of the balance between her lessened ability to attract that man (post-Wall) and the need to pair-bond with a man who can provide for her and her offspring. Women will mitigate this arousal-attraction imbalance with their own forms of pornography or self-initialized rationalization about their ‘deeper maturity’, but in essence the doubt that hypergamy seeds in them has to be held in check either through self-repression or by dread of loss.

The fantasy for women in this instance is the hope that their predominately Beta partner will “Man Up”, Just Get It on his own and develop more arousing Alpha traits as he matures. The base schema here is to maintain the sweet Beta provider attraction, while developing him into a more arousing Alpha as her needs demand.

Beta with a Side of Alpha

The inimitable Geisha Kate then helps solidify this analysis of her ‘Perfect Man’:

Great point. That ^ is the true manicorn. That is what I mean when I say I’ll take a “greater beta with fries.”

Be careful what you pray for Kate, the women (and Manboobz) who kvetch about the ‘overly sensitive men’ they committed to probably wished for the same. In fact I’d argue that the majority of married men now looking to Athol Kay for insight believed they were Greater Betas with a side of Alpha.

Kate’s in a  stage of life when the Beta providership male makes far better practical sense to pair off with. Just like Aunt Giggles, her definition of attraction and ‘a good relationship’ is biased by the personal conditions of her present SMP valuation. She understands this from her age, SMV and necessity perspective, but this undoubtedly wasn’t her perspective when she was in the prime of her SMV years.

This is the ‘build-a-better-beta‘ paradox:

The overarching  point is to create a more acceptable man for a female defined goal, NOT to truly empower any man. There is no feminine opposite to this; there is no counter effort to make women more acceptable to men – in fact this is actively resisted and cast as a form of slavish subservience. This is the extent of the feminine reality; it’s so instaurating that men, with the aid of  “concerned women”, will spend lifetimes seeking ways to better qualify themselves for feminine approval. That’s the better Beta they hope to create. One who will Man-Up and be the Alpha as situations and use would warrant, but Beta enough to be subservient to the feminine imperative. They seek a man to be proud of, one who’s association reflects a statement of their own quality, yet one they still have implicit control over.

Whether the reasonings are moral, entitlement or ‘honor bound’ in nature the end result is still feminine primacy. The sales pitch is one of manning up to benefit yourself, but the latent purpose is one of better qualifying for normalized feminine acceptance. What they cannot reconcile is that the same benefits that are inherent in becoming more Alpha (however you choose to define that) are the same traits that threaten his necessary position of subservience as a Beta. This is precisely why ‘real’ Game, and truly unplugging, cannot be sanitized. This social element wants to keep you plugged in; more Alpha, more confidence, more awareness, is a threat to fem-centrism. “It’s great that all this Game stuff has finally got you standing up for yourself, but remember who’s got the vagina.

I have a lot of respect for Athol, and not so much for Aunt Giggles, but the problem I see with both of their approaches in balancing Alpha with Beta is that they begin from a fem-centric origin. Athol seems to have the better take of the two, but by and large the men seeking his advice are Beta men who’ve been red-pill enlightened to the fact that they need to up the Alpha – presuming they had an Alpha element to start.

Aunt Giggles simply wants a Beta, who’s an Alpha of a woman’s convenience. Aunt Sue had a grand mal seizure orgasm when she’d thought Roissy was actually advocating that men genuinely become more Beta. She force fit it to comply with her build-a-better-beta narrative (CH suggests using Beta as an in-context Game tactic), but it only better illustrates her latent imperatives about a post-Wall, fem-centrically defined preference for Beta with a side of Alpha.

There is no side of Alpha. The conflict both Kate and Giggles don’t grasp is that Alpha demands dominance, and this doesn’t fit very well with the feminine imperative’s false religion of equalism. Athol understand this with his Captain and First Officer analogy; in any relationship one partner is the dominant personality, the other the submissive. Even homosexual couples recognize this order, but the women and men of the feminine Matrix resist this with the delusion of an equalist utopia amongst the genders.

So when I read about a desire for achieving some balance of Alpha to Beta traits in the ‘perfect man’ I realize that this is an extension of this feminine-primary equalist want for balance amongst the genders; which really equates to women wanting a perfected security. In their need for control (dominance) they want hypergamy definitively settled in the perfect man, for the perfect occasion, and at every stage of their SMV maturation. Men, mangina sympathizers or otherwise, are simply the means to that end. That end may be with the perfect husband, or via cuckolding or through fem-side pornography, or any other methodology women’s sexual pluralism will help her invent.

Up the Alpha

I’ve written this before, but it bears repeating: for men wanting to change their lives and relationships, working up from Beta to Alpha is a far tougher road to hoe that tempering Alpha dominance with a personalized touch of Beta. As bad as Hugo Schwyzer is in his abject feminization, have a read of a few of the female commenters in this article. How many of the simpering, socially conditioned, Betatized men these women seeth about would make for believable Alphas once they had a red pill epiphany? It is precisely because of this impressionistic, binary solipsism that women will never be happy with ‘fixing’ their Beta. This is why he has to Just Get It on his own.

It is a far better proposition to impress a woman with an organic Alpha dominance – Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with. This is why I stress Alpha traits above all else. It’s easy, and endearing to ‘reveal’ a flash of Beta sensitivity when a woman perceives you as predominantly Alpha. If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums at best, character flaws at worst.

Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

137 comments on “Up the Alpha

  1. What do you think about the Vox Day categories of delta, gamma, lamda, sigma, and omega? Are you more of a “purist” -seeing only the Alpha/Beta split, or do you recognize these other categories as being meaningful?

  2. That last line was perfect. Rollo Tommassi, Rational Male says, “Women may love the Beta, but only respect the Alpha.” I would only add that with maybe the rarest exception, that recieving love without recieving respect is totally worthless. This is especially true when a woman loves a man but does not respect him. Recieving any kind of love be that romantic, platonic etc. from a man without recieving respect is by far more likely to be worthwhile than recieving any kind of love without recieving respect from a woman.

  3. Basically, as a woman ages, I refer to it as the Baby-Financial agenda years. Usually (not always) an average woman will face financial difficulties and a ticking biological clock, and since she’s less attractive than she was when she was 18-25, she seeks “nicer” men. If she had unlimited fertile years, her body never physically declined, and money was never an issue, I think you would find that women would always prefer upper-alphas. But upper-alphas don’t server a woman with a strong baby-financial interest.

  4. And when it comes to women…respect is far greater than love.

    St. Paul got it right if you read his thoughts about marriage. Women can only respect their husbands by submitting to him, men can only love their wives by sacrificing for them. In that setup…neither partner is taking advantage over the other.

  5. Brilliant Rollo, but the problem is women aren’t submissive anymore and she has the government in her corner once she becomes “unhappy”. Even if a man is a pure Alpha, she doesn’t need him or any man once the cash and prizes are secured. Her and her child aka “little man” are going to be just fine with daddy’s money.

    Alpha Carousel > Alpha/Beta Marriage > Kids > Unhappy > Divorce with Cash/Prizes > Back to Alpha/Beta Carousel (depending on cycle)

  6. Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

    I got nailed for saying this exact thing once before. However, it is true. What I think a lot of men don’t realize, or at least attempt to forget in their subconscious, is that we can’t truly love (or at least be in love) without respect. If a man must choose respect or love from a woman, he should choose respect each and every time. Respect can breed love. Love alone will not breed respect.

  7. This whole Alpha/Beta debate reminds me of a good friend in my college days.

    He fell in love with a way overpriced used truck with electrical (and other) issues at a dealer lot.

    I adviced him against showing too much interest but he didn’t listen and ended up agreeing on full asking price plus financing with minimum payment possible. A terrible deal.

    When I was driving him over to pick up the truck from the lot, he kept worrying if he should pay the $900 down in cash or cheque.

    This whole Alpha/Beta debate is similar to the scenario above.

    Western man has already made a very bad social deal by providing all benefits of a marriage like security, comfort, food, utilities etc through forced taxation (welfare/laws/technology) but without getting benefits of marrage in return. Alpha/Beta debate is foolish since men already have lost. Its only negotiating the terms of payment on a very bad deal.

    On the other hand Imagine if all women over 18 had to sign up for regular sex with a random man picked by the state.

  8. I also understand the “Just getting it” now. The last thing you want to do is to ask a woman what you need to do to fix whatever problem she has with you in the relationship. 9 times out of 10…the problem is you are being too beta.

  9. I think a good movie that illustrates how you can transform from a Beta to an Alpha is Fight Club. If you never saw it Edward Norton was a beta male who was fed up with his life and created an alter ego played by Brad Pitt who was an Alpha. The movie is basically Edward Norton transforming his personality…until the end when he is completely alpha and kills the alter ego because he didn’t need it anymore.

  10. “Western man has already made a very bad social deal by providing all benefits of a marriage like security, comfort, food, utilities etc through forced taxation (welfare/laws/technology) but without getting benefits of marrage in return. ”

    And these alleged benefits of marriage are? Would you have women go hungry, homeless and unprotected just so that you begin to look like a good alternative?

    “Alpha/Beta debate is foolish since men already have lost. Its only negotiating the terms of payment on a very bad deal.”

    A bad deal….really? But I suppose it depends on which side of the coin you’re on. It stands to reason that one of the three women I’m currently ‘dating’ are at the expense of someone else’s missed opportunity. But really, life’s not fair. Historically nature has disqualified men who did not rise to a certain level of success. It’s incentive for men to improve and achieve.

    Imposing a form of indentured servitude (marriage) upon either gender is not a viable solution IMO.

  11. I agree with the tact to “stress Alpha traits above all else”.

    It’s amazing how women will treat men differently depending on the man’s frame. If he’s in a beta frame, flashes of alpha will be seen as childish and be laughed at by her and her friends. If he’s in an alpha frame, revelations of beta will be seen as cute and rationalized in a way that allows her to defended him and his “character flaws”.

    I think this speaks to another important side effect of the alpha arousal dynamic. Women are not motivated to help men when he really needs it (and is acting beta). But if he’s alpha, she will offer her support and will think along the lines of, “He’s so sexy but I know it’s tough to be him and I want to give him a hug right now.”

    It is so important to stand independently as a man. Women have mountains more respect for you, will support you, make excuses for your actions and defend your honor to others.

    Rollo, you’re right, it’s the medium, not the message.

  12. And these alleged benefits of marriage are? Would you have women go hungry, homeless and unprotected just so that you begin to look like a good alternative?

    Yes, I have no problem with this. If they want something, they have to give something.

    It stands to reason that one of the three women I’m currently ‘dating’ are at the expense of someone else’s missed opportunity. But really, life’s not fair.

    Three women? If you say so. No missed opportunity for other men though. We can all take turns right?

    Don’t get me wrong, I fully support the player lifestyle but I just don’t think its empowering for men on the whole. You are still firmly within the Matrix. Someone has to pay the bill for all the free samples.

    On an individual level, do what works.

  13. Self esteem and sense of manhood of such “alpha” is so inextricably and pathetically linked to pussies and approval of women. He is only better slave.

  14. “Western man has already made a very bad social deal by providing all benefits of a marriage like security, comfort, food, utilities etc through forced taxation (welfare/laws/technology) but without getting benefits of marrage in return. ”

    And these alleged benefits of marriage are? Would you have women go hungry, homeless and unprotected just so that you begin to look like a good alternative?

    This sounds suspiciously like fem-centric hyperbole, although the rest of your post makes your exact stance unclear, at least, by my reading.

    Once upon a time the alleged benefits were sex for the man, security for the woman, stability and partnership for both.

    Removing the laws that provide people (often women and children) with benefits such as foodstamps and housing wouldn’t necessarily send them starving out into the streets, but would force them to either find a job, find a provider (whether a new spouse or a family member or a friend), or at very least stop popping out babies for welfare check and think about their choices.

    Now, unfortunately our economy has forced us into a catch 22 – already there are not enough jobs to go around if we took away benefits and forced those people relying on them to get a job, on the other hand, neither can we afford to pay out benefits indefinitely. I don’t think you have to be a futurist to see that sometime not tooooo far down the line from now, conditions are going to get much worse. In this sense, you may be right that women will be homeless, hungry and unprotected, but this is do to actual scarcity, which benefits are not safe from (subject, as they are, to the same supply everyone else is accessing).

    Basically, if scarcity is truly in play, benefits programs will be unsustainable, and if scarcity is not in play, benefits programs should be largely unnecessary.

    Imposing a form of indentured servitude (marriage) upon either gender is not a viable solution IMO.

    On the contrary, if marriage is held as an inviolable contract, it calls for both genders to make sacrifices of their animal mating preferences, and provides both with the long term benefits of a protracted, weathered relationship. Marriage calls for the man to give up his desires for polygamous variety, while also calling for the woman to give up her desires for hypergamous upgrade.

    While you are not likely to find the seasoned PUA or thrice-divorced female to ADMIT to anything (whether because they’ve rationalized their behaviors away, or simply believe there is no better alternative on the table), most people do want more than their base instincts account for. What it comes down to is we have animal instincts as leftovers from a time when lifespans were much shorter, survival far less certain, and needs much more basic. These instincts may serve peoples in such conditions (third world countries?) much better, but for anyone reading Rollo, they have outlasted their evolutionary function. That’s not to say they are irrelevant (clearly they are still in effect or we’d have no reason to discuss them!), but just that the factors which brought them into being no longer exist.

    How does this relate to marriage? Well, our hindbrain animal mating patterns may “need” one thing, but we have evolved (and sufficiently socialized, in most cases) to emotional needs that are in conflict with those animal patterns. Men and women both have emotional needs for love, emotional security and safety, and self esteem that are met in marriage, as long as both hold the sacrament of marriage in such reverence as not to violate it. This may cause short-term angst when the man sees another woman he wants to add to his notch count, or when the woman sees another man more successful than her own, but when each overcomes the temptation, their relationship is stronger and more affirmed for the doing so, and they both benefit more emotionally from the commitment in the long term than they would for the short term fling.

    The problem we continue to come back to is that, generally, men are honoring their commitments, and shamed for not doing so, while women are breaking their commitments, and often lauded for “leaving that loser” or whatever you please. This has less to do with the actual concept of marriage, and much more to do with the legal situation of marriage.

  15. I think that there is some confusion on Athol Kay’s use of the word beta. It’s come to mean several things depending on which blogger you’re reading, and then even in the same article. The bad sort of beta comes from a mindset of fear shame and insecurity, and is most characterized by supplication. Athol Kay does not advocate this in any way shape or form from what I’ve read. So there is a huge difference between a beta orbiter staying up late with a girl, watching chick flicks with her because she just got dumped, and a husband doing laundry because his wife is running a fever. And if you think that’s bad as well, thats fine. Lets just not confuse the two.

  16. The live-in girlfriend is haranguing her alpha boyfriend about how he “incorrectly” loads the dishwasher. The alpha gets up and walks out of the house.

    He returns the next morning at 6am, with lipstick on his face and smelling of alcohol.

    The girlfriend snarls “You better have a good explanation as to why you are coming home at 6 in the morning.”

    The alpha replies “Breakfast.”

  17. @Booch, I agree, there is definitely a floating definition of Beta almost to the same extent as Alpha. But just like an Alpha mindset, Beta is as Beta does.

    Buying flowers and expressing your love in rare measured doses reinforces a predominant Alpha personality because it makes him ‘human’ and accessible. Buying flowers and expressing your love in grandiose displays in the context of meriting a reciprocal love reeks of Beta and confirms a predominantly Beta personality. There are countless other examples of crossover like this, but the operative is Beta is as Beta does.

    Despite all behavioral evidence to the contrary, a lot of guys adopt the position that their passive, introverted Beta personality is a benefit to them when necessitous women lead them to believe that it’s what they’re attracted and aroused by. When this is disproved for them (such as when their LTR girl doesn’t respond sexually to him) he thinks peppering in a little Alpha chest puffing will bring her around. Then he gets frustrated when it doesn’t because it was incongruous with his predominantly Beta personality and made him look more like tool to her – and likely she got turned on by a predominant Alpha for his efforts.

    You can’t be a Beta with some Alpha qualities, you have to be Alpha with an occasional peppering of some Beta qualities.

  18. Thanks for pointing out your past work on this subject, and shedding some additional light on it here. (I’ve definitely read these past posts of yours, but seem to associate the Alpha-Beta mix idea with Athol. Full credit to you for having addressed it as well.)

    If I follow you properly then, here is what you believe:
    1) A mixture of alpha/beta is optimal
    2) But, this mix will only work for the alpha who throws in some beta behaviors (not the other way around)

    So the heart of your project must be turning betas into alphas.

    The question is then: How does a beta become alpha?

    To your point:

    working up from Beta to Alpha is a far tougher road to hoe that tempering Alpha dominance with a personalized touch of Beta.


    What we’re talking about is a wholesale personality change.

    Is there any evidence that this is possible?

  19. jlw,

    (obviously not speaking for Rollo)

    My personal take on Vox Day’s terms is that they make sense for him and his writing, but I don’t use them personally.

    The alpha/beta scale (as borrowed from zoology) is primarily a measure of social dominance. Sometimes it’s defined in terms reproductive fitness.

    Those are broad definitions in a limited in scope. In other words, alpha describes only social dominance, but describes ALL social dominance. Alpha describes only sexual attraction, but describes ALL sexual attraction.

    The Vox provides narrow definitions with an unlimited scope. Vox-Alpha doesn’t just describe social dominance, but sexual and business success; but only a certain manner of success and dominance in social, sexual, and business contexts. Other definitions describe other kinds of success.

    With the Vox approach, you often wind up with examples that don’t sort cleanly into one of the categories, or else so much additional qualification and explanation is necessary that using the term isn’t adding much.

    I consider those definitions to be effective as VD’s personal shorthand for a number of common archetypes, but not likely to become part of the vernacular in everyday conversation.

  20. Betas can turn into alphas…it’s along the lines of an overweight person having to work out hard and eat right to lose weight. It takes work, patience, and the motivation to do it…but it can be done.

    Wholesale personality changes can occur in people. The worst kind is post traumatic stress disorder.

  21. I’d cosign Lad’s estimation of Vox’s definitions. There is a want to classify Alpha in terms of demographics and/or personality types as I’ve detailed here:

    As a behaviorist with an emphasis on personality studies the first thing I’ll tell you is personality isn’t static. Your sigma or lambda is tomorrow’s delta or alpha, depending on his luck and the amount of his lottery winnings. My take on the Alpha dynamic is that Alpha is a mindset not a demographic. I’ve known far too many Leaders of Men® who were sniveling Betas and only held their status by blind luck and jiggering the game to keep that status. I’ve also known Alpha thugs in jail with fan clubs of women ready to bang them once they make parole.

    I distill Alpha (and Beta) down to its essence, I don’t define it by how well a character plays a particular role.

  22. @booch:

    I agree that there’s a problem of definitions.

    Here’s a few of the common ones:

    – Strong vs. weak

    – Cad vs. dad

    – Jerk vs. nice guy

    – Procreator vs. provider

    – Leader vs follower.

    I’m still not sure that I find any of these satisfactory; in many cases, the line placed between alpha and beta leaves many good qualities on the wrong side of the division.

    (case in point: I’m not convinced that kindness is actually bad, but rather obsequiousness and deference.)

  23. I was reading the Red Pill Blog (It’s a very good blog if you have never read it. I highly recommend his article on The Female Social Matrix. It is very long. Here is a link to it: http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/05/female-social-matrix-introduction.html ). The writer is another guy that has been married for 21 years. One of his articles says you can’t be alpha part of the time. His wife says “Foreplay begins in the morning when your feet hit the floor after you wake up” He begins this list of things you should do:

    That means being the leader every day.
    That means being decisive in your leadership every day.
    That means soliciting her opinions before you make a decision about something important, every day.
    That means ensuring the health, safety, and welfare for your family every day.
    That means household maintenance every day.
    That means working out in some way, every day.
    That means making at least three good DHV Alpha moves every day.
    That means intriguing her sense of curiosity or wonder every day.
    That means making her come to you, not the other way around, every day.

    And this is just a fragment of his list and I started thinking after reading about a third of the way through it, “Fuck it”. It’s such a load of shit to go through just to be with a woman. You just can’t “be” with one. There is always going to be this tension that you are going to be put through in one form or another. You either are the perfect little beta with a side of alpha that is the best little handyman or you have to now go through this contrived alpha shit that Ian Ironwood lists above.

    its such a lot of shit to go through just to have some regular pussy. That’s not really even regular and it gets real tired. It is far better to fuck new pussy then your old tired ass wife and look that crap you have to go through to even get that.

    And none of it is guaranteed to work and most of this is just conjecture. A few married guys that a “her-i-cane” hasn’t made “landfall” into his life and his marriage are like people living in Orlando telling people in southern Alabama how best to avoid a hurricane. Just because a major hurricane hasn’t hit Orlando doesn’t mean one won’t ever hit there.

    I am 57. I am divorced. I live without a woman. I was sad and mad for about four years after the divorce. But now, not a day fucking goes by that I am not actually thankful that I don’t have that woman in my life. I don’t mean just a little bit thankful. I mean I am fucking giddy about it. Being happy is fucking easy. All you have to do to be happy is not be unhappy. I can’t really tell you how to be happy but I can fucking tell you how to be unhappy. Have a 55 year old wife. That’s how.

    There are 3 women in their late forties or fifties that all three live right next to each other, right by me. I look at them and I am so glad I don’t have one of these beasts in my bed. My mother died way before my father and he never went with another woman. It wasn’t any devotion to her. He hated her. He was sick of her. She harangued and henpecked him for 40 or years. And he was alpha as mother fucker and he had all those good beta qualities of regularity and dependability that a woman could want in a man. He was 6’3″ 220 pound Sergeant-Major in the military that was about the meanest looking mother fucker you would see every week. He had a command voice that would freeze children in their tracks. I would run into his young troopers on the base when I was a teenager and when they found out who I was they would say “Your dad is a mean fucking asshole”. I would reply “You’re telling me something I don’t know. I’m his fucking son. Try that on for a while.” But no matter what, how alpha you are or what good alpha/beta mix you are there is still going to be something that is going to put a burr in that woman’s saddle. He was a good man and a good husband and still they ended up sleeping in different rooms.

    All this ink and writing about how to be some alpha with some beta in you or a beta with some alpha in you is a fucking waste of time. There is no solution to this. Women and men are too far apart and there is no reconciliation. They have opinions that are rationalized, solipsistic, false, or generalized. They have the advantageous position of having a pussy that you want more than they want your dick, and they have the law, religion, and the media on their side. The highest rate of divorce is among interracial marriages of white woman and black men. And you know those relationships are the best example of women wanting to marry alpha dick and that is the only reason that the woman married the man.

    Get it through your head, Men are from mars; women are FUCKING IDIOTS.

    Never marry. Duh. Plate Theory. Duh. Game. Duh. Pump them, dump them, next them. Duh. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO WIN. Duh!!!!!

    You have no idea how young you are going to feel when you are 57 and how old those women will be when they are 57. You will not feel a lick of shit older or different when you are 57. Your dick will work, your body will work. You will still be viable sexually. And that women will be a broken down piece of shit with a dead vagina and a body that would disgust you to see her naked much less fuck her. My ex-wife would be 50 years old right now and I have no idea how I could actually bring myself to fuck her knowing how she probably looks without clothes right now. Women say old men are pervs for wanting to fuck young girls. Fuck I would think it is perverted to fuck old women. It is natural as a motherfucker to want to fuck young women. Duh.

    You can’t fucking win at this game. Get a fucking PS3. Get DirectTV. Get a lot of guy friends. Go fishing. Get some kind of Game be it alpha game or beta game to make them think you will be their sucker provider and then run away after you get the trim.

    Whatever, just never marry. I am starting to get bored with this theme, how to be a better husband by being more alpha.

    It won’t work.

    You cannot look at a 40 year old women today and say that today’s thirty year old will be just like that when she is 40. You can’t even look at a 30 year old today and say today’s 20 year old will be like her. You have no idea what any of them are going to be like when they get older. The only reason women stayed with men in the past was because they had to and now they don’t and they won’t. Maybe if you are in the top 10% of income and your wife doesn’t work then she might stay with you.

    There was this piece in The Atlantic a few days ago called “The Weaker Sex”. It profiled 3 women as something the female writer called the DWP club, divorced women professionals. It profiled 4 women, three were already divorced and loving it. They had fucking weekends off from kids. The Ex husbands came and got the kids. So they had female nirvana, money, independence, nobody trying to fuck them, and someone else to raise the kids on the weekends. The fourth had a househusband, who she fucking abused, and the writer made him look like a nitwit idiot and hinted this woman was well on the way to getting a divorce. All made mid six figure incomes. Women will only stay with you if they have to and they don’t have to any fucking more. Get it through your head. They get just as sick of your dick as you will with their tired ass boring pussy.

    Pump them, dump them, next them.

    If you do this, if you never marry, and they invent time machines in the next 30 years, your 57 year old self will fucking come back and thank you for doing it. If you don’t listen to me, then your 57 will come back and say “Listen to me you little idiot, when you meet a blond woman named Suzanne from Long Island, New York, RUN!!!!!”

  24. I can’t begin to explain how many times I’ve answered this question on SoSuave: “Rollo, was it Beta of me to [fill in the activity] for my girlfriend?” There are very few expressly Beta or expressly Alpha behaviors. I’ve seen chumps meekishly hang onto their GF’s purses while they’re in the Macy’s dressing rooms, and I’ve seen Alphas (true story) hold their GF’s purse and then, without looking at her, toss it to her so it landed square in her chest like he just took the snap and pitched the purse to his running back.

    Generally, it’s not a behavior that’s Alpha or Beta, but the context in which it happens. It’s about the actor, not the act. Certain acts don’t even enter the awareness of a man with an Alpha mindset, and the same is true for Beta men.

  25. “this undoubtedly wasn’t her perspective when she was in the prime of her SMV years”

    No, without guidance, I don’t think nineteen year olds have much perspective. The silver lining is knowing what I know now for my daughter’s sake.

    The reason I had used the term “greater beta” was from a chart Roissy made. The change from greater beta to alpha was what made me say, no, don’t want that. The difference was one of morals. It all comes down to our definitions of alpha and beta which has already been done to death. Real betas (if there are any in attendance, cover your eyes) are not attractive.

    Your discussion of “equal” has given me food because I feel like I keep saying I want a superior, but it doesn’t seem to be coming across.

    Anyway, delighted to be a part of the discussion and grateful for the interest and good-will.

  26. I’m right now thinking about beta-ness, niceness, and alpha-ness. I’m just thinking about this aspect as the Kate’s quote is conflating two aspects. They are all highly connected. Beta-ness with a side of Alpha just does not make sense. Authority by definition means the ability to exert influence in some form. The beta by definition have no authority. A beta cannot be a beta if the beta is taken seriously in the whatever context.

    This should mean “niceness” is a side quality, Though wholly correlated, it is completely interpreted to the given level of authority. Hero’s comment above illustrate this perfectly.

    This is just my thought as the general instinct again Kate is Beta with a side of Alpha. If taken as a man with no control, then it is a contradiction – Betas cannot act Alpha as it is outside their character (a character with no ability to be listen without resentment). If taken to mean the ability to treat well, then it is much harder to object. But when taking in consideration of how women tend change in “taste” then it is just the former. Yet, in discussing this, the latter is easily conflated (also the fact there is a high correlation in-of itself between “niceness” and Alpha-Beta).

  27. Mark Minter knows whats up.

    Was thinking this the other day. I cant be fucked jumping through all these hoops. What a mission to keep a woman. Sex is great but the trade off for less of it with more free time on my hands to surf/earn money/enjoy life?

    Whats the point.

  28. Mark Minter, your post should be required reading for all men before they get married. A++++++

  29. To answer several queries above and augment some statements made, let me tell you unequivocally: Change happens, both naturally and intentionally. Let me tell you a little story.

    I began as Vox’s notion of Gamma. Awkward, introverted, in no normal way attractive but attracting now and then in spite of my dorkitude, it was a strange existence, and being unusual has never fazed me since. In late high school and early college I was a pathetic beta, and I do mean pathetic: romantic, bitter, needy, horrible. And yet I pulled above my station in life now and then.

    Then, something happened, and the rest of my college career was one girl after another, when I had time for such nonsense. I realize now what happened and how it built on itself to put one success after another, but at that point I was mystified. This continued until I got married.

    Yeah. I know. You don’t have to tell me.

    She told me – actually said – that she needed to change herself to be whatever crap she thought a married woman was expected to be. This, in the first year of marriage. I told her not to, of course, and that if I wanted someone else I would have married someone else. If I’d held on to my better nature I might have pulled her out of it, I don’t know. Instead, what I’d been taught kicked in then, and I beta’d and white knighted the hell out of her. Slow and miserable trudging toward death followed, as it must.

    I cast about for years, trying to figure out what the holy fuck went wrong, or at least how to fix it. Then I discovered… this. The whole network. The hidden world with the answers that work. The bad habits that I had deliberately encouraged in myself were quickly seen as self-destructive, and I started down the usual path we take in this network: First, shock, disgust with my woman and my self, and trying very surface-level techniques. Then, I wandered the varied and squabbling paths of game theory until I found what rang true. Reconstructing my personality was the hardest part, as I hadn’t consciously done it before, and this was definitely not the path of least resistance. Still, it was the path back to the true and happier me. Now, I embed the tenets of this philosophy, the philosophy of true relationship and mastery of one’s world, deep within me, and reinforce them with good habits, slowly built. That’s why I have returned to asking for specific actions/views/habits that I can gauge myself with, objectively. Otherwise, it’s a house of mirrors.

    Lest some of you default to thinking I’m doing this just for the pussy, let me remind you that to get this far one must remove that as a primary goal. It’s otherwise just another form of dependence. And we’ll have none of that here. I see the rest of the path ahead of me, from my position of being ready to step back into my proper role, this time with the correct mindset and fully conscious of what lies (in all meanings of the word) beneath the surface of the one I cast the dice with. My biggest obstacle right now is a desire to tell her all this, to share as I’ve always been told women want to be shared with. I know it’s not true, and have demonstrated it time and time again. Bad habits are hard to break. Still, you’d think she’d want to be part of the adventure of self-improvement. Maybe another might have been.

    The biggest irony of the whole thing is that if I’d just taken the worst advice of all – just be yourself – I’d have actually done the right thing. When it mattered most, the robust, intelligent, mature, alpha personality that I was settling into was exactly what I should have been.

    And am returning to, now.

  30. From a practical perspective, what you point out here is the one-directional thinking women have regarding “changing a man.” When women think they can change a man, they think of making the alpha more beta, never making the beta more alpha. Fits in well with women’s typical apex fallacy thinking, and that sex drives the relationship as opposed to vice versa.

    It’s an important distinction to know when seeking or first forming relationships, what many are here about – when in doubt, be the alpha she can blunt instead of the beta who she won’t bother to sharpen.

  31. I agree about not making pussy the reward for becoming an alpha personality. I made the change a few months ago…since then,

    I was promoted at my job to a higher management status.
    I’ve lost 15 pounds and 4% body fat.
    I’ve become a much better dancer (a hobby I took up several months before).
    I’m more extroverted…with strangers both men and women.
    My mind is at peace. Instead of beating myself up all the time.
    I take on the world…I don’t react to it.

  32. Rollo said:

    “it’s not a behavior that’s Alpha or Beta, but the context in which it happens. It’s about the actor, not the act.”

    This calibration of one’s behavior to match the context sounds an awful lot like “good judgement.”

    So, is it the case that the problem with betas isn’t that they’re “kind” but “kind” in the wrong context (that is, all of them)?

    And that they display no strength?

    I get the impression that what women want (even need?) is a man who is strong, decisive, courageous, and witty, but also kind and financially stable…. all in good measure.

  33. All men should have to live one year as a woman.

    One reason to be with a man is to get away from the world of women
    because of the insistence on conformity for inclusion which is basically
    saying that we must subvert are own individuality to the group, being a woman is like living in a communist country 24/7 where your value is determined by your relationship to the group and it sucks the life out of your soul.

    Compared to men, women are hyper-competitive. Being a woman sucks because of other women so when there are problems with men where do we go now?

    I do not want to think about changing for a man because I’m already exhausted from fighting against the relentless demand to change or be of use to everyone else, men have a form of freedom they take for granted
    because they have not known its absence.

    A man seeks dominance from appetite as much as if not more than from feeling threatened but I have no interest in dominance unless I feel threatened so it is defensive not offensive.

    Because I am not political (social) dominance does not interest me.

    What you call a S.. test for me would be nothing more than reassuring myself that this man can protect me and really wants to be with me, it is validation of my value to him and his belief that he is equal to other men
    because otherwise I will pay for his insecurity.

    Symbolically a man is a meat eater where I’m a vegetarian.

    With men in relationship to other men I think of something direct and transparent between individuals where with women it is espionage and you never know who your friends really are. Men do not need or want to belong
    to the group in the same way, they seem built to be alone even when they are surrounded by people.

    I still do not know if being Beta is about passivity or respect for the other person

    I’m finding your blog very interesting, useful if not a bit disconcerting and the word Tingle makes me laugh uncontrollably.

    I recently started reading Athol Kay’s words, he sends chills down my spine but as yet I do not know why, he thinks like a woman but he does not,
    very weird experience.

  34. What I find funny about Mark Minter’s comments is that there is so much unbridled truth in them, yet if you see how the discussion goes on after his comment it’s as if people didn’t take the time to read his comment. IT’S ALL THERE!!! Debate over. I think some of the people here are still trying to discuss this dynamic of 2 dash alpha 1 tablespoon beta (esp. some of the women) in an effort to hold on to hope that they can either be that perfect guy (the men) or they can find that perfect guy (the women), hence why they seem to skip over what he’s saying or just try to write it off in there minds as a rant. The truth is ugly. It’s clear that people here are still trying to hold onto some pretty lies. I call it Part I.B. of the Blue Pill. This is where they become aware of the main ideas of this blog and other manosphere blogs, yet they try to use these concepts for Blue pill goals. Let it go.

    B/w Gregg’s comments and Mark’s, therein lies most of what you need to know. I’d recommend that they start blogs but in reality they serve a much more signifcant role when they step into these blogs and regulate with their comments once the discussion starts going off the reservation into blue-pill land.

  35. @kelly

    Most if not all men don’t really want you to change. We just have the same problem with women that you have in that they want US to change too.

    Hence why you have a lot of screwed up men these days who think a women’s advice for relationships is helpful. If only they knew that women’s advice is the quickest way to ruin a relationship.

  36. Perhaps the way to think of how Athol Kay uses the term beta would to think of the comfort portion of Mystery’s attraction, comfort, seduction paradigm. But I get what you’re saying. One can’t take beta traits such as insecurity, shame, etc, and just add some alpha in terms of confidence, and pride.

  37. As a behaviorist with an emphasis on personality studies the first thing I’ll tell you is personality isn’t static. Your sigma or lambda is tomorrow’s delta or alpha, depending on his luck and the amount of his lottery winnings. My take on the Alpha dynamic is that Alpha is a mindset not a demographic.


    One positive of this view in my opinion is it gives a guy hope to change or at least something to work towards/strive for. If it is demographic like Alpha equals N over some number which I think is a component of Vox’s definition, it kind of implies a man is stuck. He is stuck in who and what he is. Fuck that. Fuck that a million times. If Alpha is about mindset and actions, it means a guy can change.

  38. This post is gold…as I think you are hitting on some deep truths that are not understood especially by women themselves.

    I went round and round and round with Susan and some other female commenters about “attraction” especially when they told me that playing with a kid in the park makes a man more “attractive”. I was like “Really, you are going to want to fuck me more because I am patting some kid on the head”.

    When I say a 21-year old with perky tits, small waist, and tight ass is “attractive” it directly implies some aspect of sexual arousal. I think women themselves don’t internally understand the difference between what you are getting at here in attraction versus sexual arousal. I actually think there is an element of self-denial in perhaps some guilt is felt that is the alpha traits that trigger the purely arousal part.

    I think you are spot on right that a woman’s own SMV value and where she sits is going to heavily influence whether she prioritizes the alpha arousal versus beta attraction. Tying this back to solipsism, I think when a woman describes what she is attracted to, many are literally incapable of considering that other women in a different SMV position are likely to prioritize differently.

  39. Women do not fall in love but fall in respect and women do not love men, homosexuals love men. Women love themselves.

  40. In my view, the caveat to Mark Minter’s diatribe is if at some point you wish to have kids. It’s proven that kids do best in a dual parent household, and we would all want our kids to have the best chance of survival/success, no?

    Secondly, all you folks bitching about 2 tablespoons of alpha and 1 teaspoon of beta and how ridiculous this all is, are right…*IF* you were giving it that much thought on a daily basis. You all might be forgetting that Rollo breaks things down to the most finite level. Sure you might have to think about it at first if you aren’t a natural, but then by rote it will become instinctive, unconscious behavior.

    I have been somewhat of a natural most of my life, way before I discovered game, just due to being what most would call a “selfish asshole” by nature as well as chosen philosophical bent. Game merely connected the pieces of the inexplicable (and amusing to me and confounding to my friends) attraction women had for me the more I put them in their place and refused to tolerate their BS. Before Game the biology/psychology of it was a complete mystery to me, all I knew was that something was working right. I can assure you I have never sat there thinking “oh how much beta am I sprinkling in? Is the ratio correct? etc etc”. When I look back I was my usual self-centered rationally self-interested self about 90% of the time. The other 10% (what might be called beta tendencies) just happen naturally from some innate sense of humanity I possess as well. After all none of us are SS guards at a concentration camp right?

    So in conclusion, always err on the side of rational self-interest over altruistic beta sacrifice. I have been utterly amazed at times with the crazy shit I’ve pulled and kept the girl because she says “I know there’s good in you”. (Direct quote btw).

  41. This might be fucked-up, but one thing I’ll do is tie “beta” behavior to sexual situations. For example, compliment her facial features while she’s blowing you, or as she collapses in exhaustion after good sex. Or if she’s treated you exceptionally well in the sack, bring her flowers the next day. Just to anchor those good feelings of “tame the alpha” onto a sexual state.

    And one key thing to realize is that when you meet a new woman, she’ll alpha you up in her own mind. She’ll imagine other female competitors (who may not exist), she’ll play it as cool as possible, and she’ll make whatever compromises necessary to ‘close the deal’. I don’t think most men realize how much hand they have in the early stages.

  42. Mike C,

    “I think women themselves don’t internally understand the difference between what you are getting at here in attraction versus sexual arousal. I actually think there is an element of self-denial in perhaps some guilt is felt that is the alpha traits that trigger the purely arousal part.”

    Since in reality women are going to see men as either one or the other (cad vs. dad), and since no guy really wants to be seen as ‘dad’ and not ‘cad’, the party line that women use is that they are attracted to petting the head on the kid in order to keep the ‘dad’ guys on ice until they’re ready to settle down. Otherwise, if women came outright and said “Well I’m not actually pining for you but I need you as my safety net in the future” very few men would be willing to play that part. If, however, they can convince them that they’re “attracted” to the beta/provider/dad qualities in a guy, it gives that type of guy hope. This hope will fuel him to endure being strung along until her SMV is on the decline and she’s ready to settle for him, not out of ‘love’ but rather necessity/security. It becomes more of a business transaction than the chemical attraction that characterizes arousal This is a mechanism that has developed in women as it gives them the best chance at reproductive success. It’s ancient. The duality of men (cad vs. dad) is ingrained in them so they have this mechanism in order to try to get the benefits of each one. The guy’s best interest never fits into the equation. It’s an extractive relationship. Children extract from parents (mainly moms) and women extract from men. Understand that by nature’s rules most men are expendable. Use and discard.

    P.S. if someone says that a guy is both ‘cad’ and ‘dad’, he’s really ‘dad’. Don’t kid yourselves.

  43. @ Mike C

    To be honest, I think this kind of thing is a step forward. Only the anonymity of the Internet has allowed women to admit that a good-looking guy carrying his cute son gets their shorts stinky. (In this age, a genuine father-son family is so rare it’s becoming alpha as fuck.) I’ve never heard any woman say anything like this in person, it’s far too close to a bio-truth for women to confess.

    But you’re right, most women have no idea what they’re really attracted to. “It just happened.” They’ve even demonstrated it with studies where women claim not to be attracted to certain kinds of porn, while the probes say differently.

    And you’re also right in that the type of women to comment on blogs tend to be over-educated nerdos with at best marginal SMV. I’ve never met a woman who uses the internet for more than shopping & social media.

  44. “Secondly, all you folks bitching about 2 tablespoons of alpha and 1 teaspoon of beta and how ridiculous this all is, are right…*IF* you were giving it that much thought on a daily basis. You all might be forgetting that Rollo breaks things down to the most finite level. Sure you might have to think about it at first if you aren’t a natural, but then by rote it will become instinctive, unconscious behavior. ”

    Good breakdown. It’s not so much the thinking about how much of this or that which is the underlying issue, but reading the comments I get a sense of people trying to find and fit an ideal, which is the wrong way to go about it. It’s an ideal that’s suppose to be appealing to women. They should do like you Alphawiskey, be more self-focused, they’ll be happier.

  45. “Since in reality women are going to see men as either one or the other (cad vs. dad), and since no guy really wants to be seen as ‘dad’ and not ‘cad’, the party line that women use is that they are attracted to petting the head on the kid in order to keep the ‘dad’ guys on ice until they’re ready to settle down. Otherwise, if women came outright and said “Well I’m not actually pining for you but I need you as my safety net in the future” very few men would be willing to play that part. If, however, they can convince them that they’re “attracted” to the beta/provider/dad qualities in a guy, it gives that type of guy hope.”

    IDK…I’m not sure that it is that deliberate with that element of preplanning. I highly doubt that many 20-29 year old women even have that much future time orientation. I think what happens is in their early 20s they pretty much respond to the arousal traits and as they get older the rationalization hamster kicks in to make the other traits “attractive”.

  46. But you’re right, most women have no idea what they’re really attracted to. “It just happened.” They’ve even demonstrated it with studies where women claim not to be attracted to certain kinds of porn, while the probes say differently.

    Vox had a good post on this recently.


    The publishers almost surely believed that by giving women what they were actively demanding, they would benefit from in the form of more positive press and increased sales. They got the more positive press they were expecting, as the media around the world covered their action favorably. But they didn’t get the sales; the best-selling magazine that once sold 700,000 copies per month saw that its subscriptions “dropped by nearly 22 per cent while 35 per cent fewer copies were sold in shops”.

    The magazine would have been in much better shape had its publishers kept this basic principle in mind: women cannot tell you what they want because they do not consciously know what they want. Their desires can only be ascertained by their actions, not their assertions.

  47. I love this blog so much and have such respect for Rollo Tomassi that if I won the lottery tomorrow, one of my first things that I would do would be send Rollo an email and ask what he needs to get his book done. The philanthropic thing that I would do with some of the winnings, that thing that a winner should do to insure the betterment of mankind, would be to insure that he gets published, that he has all the publicists, all the stops on The Today Show, Good Morning America, that all the right critics give treatment to his work.

    I would hope that any comment I ever make on this blog never is construed as a lick of criticism of what he writes. His work has wedged itself into my first filters of how I view the world right up their with Newton, Maxwell, John Locke, Adam Smith, Darwin and has pushed Milton Friedman, Leo Schwartz down to the level of interesting theories and gives the finger to Betty Friedan and Margaret Mead.

    And I don’t say any of this lightly. Some of the best writers I read today are in the manosphere and Rollo sits in the big chair among all of them. I hungrily await his next blog like the fat kid wants cake.

  48. first, mark minter, holy fuck. eye opening. seriously.

    second, i was the biggest beta until a couple of months ago. earlier this year, i was dumped by a girl that i had “achieved”. hot as shit, fun, funny, smart, and a fucking bitch. yeah, she loved me, but i beta’d so hard that she fell out of love, and when she dumped me it was because she “didn’t see a future with me”. after months of crying and depression, i moved apartments (i live in tel aviv and this place is fucking CRAWLING with trim) to a fun neighborhood, and started putting shit back together. i have a wicked apartment, and 2 jobs that are taking me somewhere. i’m pretty ok looking, not brad pitt instant wet panties looking, but i hold my own. but something was missing. i read the game a while back, but never got into the community. a few months ago my friend introduced me to heartiste and rollo. holy shit, i took the red pill and my whole perspective has changed. i see everything through game colored lenses now. i feel bad for people when i see beta tendencies. before when i would have a lady friend and saw her bf treating her “like shit”, i often got pissed. now, respect. in short, if any of you come to tel aviv, feel free to hit me up.

    third, and in regard to this piece from today…
    with all this negativity being spoken when referring to marriages, i wonder what the dynamic is between the two side in a “successful” marriage. meaning, you know when you see couples that truly look happy, even after decades of being together, always into each other, always happy to be around each other, a real match. i’m just wondering outloud what they posess that other couples don’t. is it that he is just so alpha, and the higher value is maintained throughout? just curious to hear opinions on this. i was one who was looking for this, but now i’m just focusing on myself and my awesome dog, and if a girl fits with that, sababa (israeli slang for cool).

    much love to the community. the help to me has been immeasurable.

  49. @AlphaWhiskey

    I deserve to have my comment called a “disatribe”. It does contain that ranting bitterness that most women in the blogosphere dismiss as the vitriolic rambling of the male divorcee.

    I agree that if you want to have children that a dual parent household is the best environment.

    But you do not have the say over whether that will happen. Men are just “Dancing Monkeys” for women and almost every activity that a typical young man does is to prepare himself to be chosen by a woman and then to lay his offering at the feet of the goddess and she accepts or rejects him and his efforts. And there is little that he can do about it.

    Think of all the shit that a young boy has to go through to prepare to get “chosen”. It starts effectively at 14. You could almost honestly say that if a boy fails Algebra II and certainly Algebra I, has effectively filtered himself out of having a successful marriage by 2012 standards. That’s a harsh thing to say, but I base that on divorce statistics and how the upper levels of income have divorce rates that are more like the 50s. And in western society, the common ingredient of economic success is educational attainment.

    And men start down this path of study and work, and even then, in the sexual marketplace they can be discarded despite the work, despite the effort.

    Take a modern dating coach. His efforts with men are to teach them to eliminate behaviors and mannerisms that women use to reject him. Despite what he is on paper, his degrees, his income, the possibility that he might offer a woman, he is rejected often for the most trivial bullshit and the big picture of who he and what he offers is irrelevant. A female commenter above stated “I s* test because I want to know that he will protect me.” and my reaction is “From what? Lady, there aren’t any Sabre Tooth Tigers anymore. The shit you need to be protected from is a bill collector, homelessness, lack of esteem from lacking in financial capacity, sacrifices your kids will make from lack of resources and this guy is perfectly capable of protecting you from that.” Yet women will toss men aside for the most nothing reasons. It is stated that women will reject 80% of men and I think that number is far higher.

    Now take the work the dating coach does with women. He has to teach them not to be so picky, to literally look for a reason to be attracted to a man. Here is a woman that economically and socially is beneath the man she is judging and yet she can find any number of reasons to justify rejecting him. She is constantly picking at him, pushing him, judging him, rejecting him. There was a famous Seinfeld episode where a woman was dumping Jerry after seeing his stand up act. She had been a pest all through her existence on the show and now she was dumping him. She said “I just can’t be with a man if I don’t respect what he does.” And Jerry replied “You work at a FotoMat!!”

    And this doesn’t end with getting married. If anything, it intensifies. You continually go through fitness testing and what the work of Rollo and other writers like is to expose how and why that it happens. And when a woman deems you unfit by whatever criteria she wishes to employ, be it income, dick size, mannerisms, whether you toss and turn in the bed at night, whether your political beliefs fit what she deems a proper parent should be, religion or any 700,000 things that she and she alone deems are grounds for disqualification. When she pushes you out and sicks the dogs of the legal system and the divorce industry on you, then your life set into an inflexible slavery that you cannot shake.

    The next thing I am going to say is extremely controversial. Marriage is so Second Wave. And it is over. This opinion comes from an intellectual analysis. It is like Network TV. There will still people that do it and want it but it will no longer be the dominant form of social organization. It will die a slow death over a couple of generations and men don’t realize that this is true will get run over.

    Margaret Mead said “Motherhood is a biological reality; Fatherhood is a social invention”. A lot of the other stuff she said about culture determining behavior should be thrown out, but this one sticks with me. Men are not naturally predisposed to be fathers. And that role is entirely defined by social conditioning. If you never had children, you will never miss that you didn’t. The Male Social Matrix does not have Fatherhood as a measure of your worth. Your accomplishments, you talents, your personality, you, who you are, give you your worth among men.

    And I say there is a better way for a man to spend his life than as a father and as a husband. That fatherhood role may be beneficial to greater society but it is a perfect waste of a life for a man. I say this as someone that has been married for 17 years and has two kids. That husband/father role was about 10 years of my 57 years. There are some significant memories I had from that time. But there are other memories from before and after that are just as significant to me as those from that father/husband time.

    And, all in all, that was a lonely and a stupid time in my life. I busted my ass for those people and now that I am divorced, I don’t even get birthday cards. Not one of those kids ever spent a day in day care, I paid out the ass for nannies. I drove the shit car so my wife and kids could ride in new cars and have that nanny. I lived in a stupid, insipid, boring ass suburb where the neighbors would complain if you left your garage door open because it didn’t look good. I was beneath the dogs in getting my desires and needs meet. And even to them I was secondary. At night when everyone was up in bed, the dog would start to head upstairs and leave me alone. It was just like the Richard Pryor line “Rich, you cool and all that. But you are little tardy with the chow so I’m heading upstairs”.

    And then it all got ripped away from me. And jobs and economics took me out the city where they lived to somewhere else. And I started to change. I was a high tech IT worker because it was the way to make the most money and when I chose jobs that was the first filter, that money. Cube life. Corporate headquarters. Meetings. Diversity training. Sexual harassment seminars. Political correctness. Boredom. Office politics. Every now and then I got a respite working in a start up that was more of the male sandbox and less of the female swing set but then the enterprise would go public and the women would come in and the whole thing was turn into something else, something worse. I was pissed and angry all the fucking time between how I got treated at home and forcing a square peg personality into the round hole of major corporation life. I needed anti-depressants. I needed Viagra. I needed Xanax to sleep.

    So now I am not that guy. And I no longer am a husband and a father. And when I look back on all that shit, I think just how stupid it all was and how there has to be a better way for a man to live his life. I don’t really do much right now but what I do is what I want to do and I make no sacrifices to anyone in doing it. And I don’t need anti-depressants or Xanax. The biggest deal was to be 10 years older, 57 years old, and to no longer need Viagra and return to having erections as hard and as long as when I was 30. Explain that.

    If you still think that being a husband and a father is the ideal way that a man should spend his life then you have only taken half a dose of the Red Pill. I’ll admit I suffer from the Dark Triad of personality attributes, narcissism, psychopathic tendencies, Machiavellian attitudes and am prone to selfishness. But it is obvious to me, especially now after months and months of huge amounts of reading Red Pill essays, that the gender role played by American Men, particularly as a father and as a husband is pure sucker play. I seen both the good sides and the very dark sides of it. You have been conditioned (read ‘duped’) to think that it is what you should do. If you truly unplug, then that belief has to go.

    And a lot of my attitude that it should be avoided is not based on how it was, but more so on how it is going to be. I posed a question in a comment on this blog about how Rollo thought it was going to be 10 years, 20 years from now.

    Roosh answered my question. It is going to suck. The tendencies of options, choice addiction, bitchiness, flakiness, and superhyper hyergamy are going to get worse. When I read the writings of women on the internet and the main stream media, I realize just how far apart we are, how dismissive they are of the chorus of angry men as bitter losers, betas who can’t get laid or bitter divorced men who deserved what they got. They are not changing to suit men and what men want. Look at that tweet from Hugo Mangina that is so dismissive of Rollo and what he writes no matter how cogent, how academic, it is to us.

    And I think Roosh is the young guy who has his ass in the grass and he speaks with and interacts with thousands of women. You can say what you want about him but he is the product of his generation and I think he has the grip on the reality of how things are and how they are going to be. And his opinion of women, both foreign and domestic is that you are a fool to invest your life in them.

    Roosh had this one post where he was saying that MRM is dead. He said he could care less. MRAs screamed about the abuses of women in marriage and in divorce and it didn’t affect him because he was not marrying an American woman. MRAs screamed about custody issues, child support and alimony injustices and it didn’t affect him because he wasn’t having children.

    And that is it in a nutshell. You can’t change what has happened nor what is going to happen. You can only accept it and plan your life accordingly based on reality and logic.

    And I will say this over and over. We are in a new epoch of social organization. There is no going back. There is no cure, no magic bullet that will turn back gender relations to 1968. The world is going to evolve to some other form of social organization other than one that is based on the family, the nuclear family.

    And I, for one, look forward to it. I do not wish to return to 1955. I like the freedom I have in 2012 far more than the slavery I had in 1992 and 2002. Imagine the flexibility I would have at this time if I had totally eschewed women and saved the money they cost me. I wish I had the attitude I have today towards them, one of scorn, of disdain, of dismissal, of “amused mastery”. Women, for so long, were this mirror that I used to judge myself, how they viewed me, how they accepted or rejected was so instrumental of my self esteem and in the determination of my actions.

    So now I say fuck them. Stop living for them and live for yourself. Women should be a fucking hobby and not the central focus of your life.

    There is no “One”. There is no soulmate. One is as good as another. None are worth sacrificing for, none are even worth your time more than to convince them to fuck you. They will never love you as you love them. Their love is opportunistic and conditional. And most of all, it is temporary until that better deal comes along. She will leave you bleeding on the side of the road if suits her hypergamy. If the next woman isn’t better than the one you left, then the one after that will be. They are all the same under the hood. The only reason you think you value them is that you have fallen for the scarcity model. Sound familiar? I read every sentence of this paragraph on this blog. And these statements now my new marching orders. My new General Orders.

    This is 2012 and like it or not, we are marching into the Brave New World. The PostModern is here, the Third Wave is here. If you try to stand with your feet placed in the Modern era or in the Second Wave, you are going to get run over. New forms of social organization are occurring right now. My Republican sister was bitching about how President Obama should be at the UN because Arab Prime Ministers wanted to meet with him over the embassy issues and he was on “The View”. I said “Fuck those Prime Ministers. They don’t vote for him. He has a 25 point lead with women in Ohio. Those guys don’t tell an American President how to set his agenda. Voters do. Female voters.” Since becoming Red Pill aware, I see this election as a gender based election, the first of many to come. All those old white men are going to start dying and that old Republican platform is going to die with them. And it will be replaced with a platform that tries to stem the advance of The Female Imperative and it will lose, just like it will lose this time.

    So get a clue, women are looking for a new economic order to replace men as the economic resource in their lives. So you need replace them as your center of focus. If you block them from placing the chains on you that they wish to impose, then their agenda will have little affect on the immediate reality of your personal life. If you never marry and have children then you will never be subject to a litany of shit. Yes, you will have to deal with the workplace reality of them and the economic ramifications of the new social order that they construct. But if you don’t have a wife and kids then you can be so much more flexible in how you can deal with it.

    And if you do reject marriage, then you will know freedom and flexibility in way that no men that came before us ever knew. It is useless to try to find a way to make marriage work, to turn back the clock to some era when men were dominant, were family leaders, and honestly you have no idea if that time really ever existed. My dad was alpha and my mom and him jammed because he was. Maybe my paternal grandfather was the leader, but I am sure that was specific to who he married more than it was that it was institutional. My maternal grandfather surely wasn’t in control of his house. My maternal grandmother was dominant alpha bitch in that house. And my mother was her daughter. I feel that those times were just a different version of The Female Imperative that worked for women then but is no longer necessary now.

    So yeah, there is a remnant of anger in my posts and a lot could be called a diatribe. But there is more intellectual analysis than my language might lead you to believe. My rejection of marriage is based on what I believe will come as well as in my own experience of it.

    Adam lived in Garden of Eden until that bitch Eve came along. To me, the apple is a metaphor for marriage and children. Adam didn’t have a PlayStation3 or the internet so he ate the apple to avoid being alone. He didn’t have 48% of women 25-30 or 28% of women 30-35 with a status of “Never Been Married”. He didn’t have the wide variety of sluts available to him. All he had was that bitch Eve. You have a lot more options than he did.

    Fuck eating apples and fuck being married to women. The Third Wave Man has a far better future ahead of him then being Ken to some hypergamistic Barbie. I have gone beyond being angry at women and at divorce. Now I am happy that it happened to me and I look forward to variety that is available to me in my life now that those chains have been removed from me.

    Your angst that most of you feel is in your mind and is based on what happened to you or on the loss of what was. Many of you feel powerless against modern women in their pursuit of hypergamy and their sexual manipulation of you.

    Let go of it and go forward as a free man. Concentrate on the postings that enhance your Game and not on those postings that indict women or feminism. It is a waste of effort. It like standing it the beach and arguing with the tide.

    Game is not only dominance cues and pickup tactics. It a belief structure that supplants much of what you have held before. Including Marriage and Fatherhood. It encompasses the truth about law, science, society, women, relationships, biology, anthropology and should be setting right at the forefront of your paradigm of belief structures even in the front of concepts like Capitalism and Democracy.

    That you even wrestle with the concept that Game might be functional in marriage and what is alpha this and beta that just shows that you have not accepted reality for what it is. Let go. Let the transformation come over you and when it is done, you will be happier.

    Game is my shepherd. I shall not want.

    [Epic post is Epic]

  50. One of the reasons that I asked this question, is that the only Super-Alpha I know happens to be one of the nicest guys I know.

    I genuinely think that niceness has at least a little to do with his success.

    Granted, the guy has plenty of other things going for him: over 6′, jacked, has no approach anxiety, and he’s a surgeon out of Johns Hopkins.

    At the same time though, he’s one of the most affable people I know, and I suspect that his success would be hindered if he was a dick.

    Perhaps more to the point: I just don’t see his being good-natured as “beta.” He’s just being likable, which is part of the reason he gets so much pussy.

  51. @ Mark Minter…

    What you said resonates with what St. Paul says in the New Testament. It is better for men to be single and focus on God. The only reason women get involved is because of our lust for them.

    It’ll never resonate with women and beta men…but women need men a hell of a lot more than men need women. We have logic, we have reason, we have power, we have leadership, we keep our emotions in check for the most part, we have everything a woman wishes she had. Women bring a womb to the table to carry on our DNA…that’s about it.

    So this media brainwashing about putting women on a pedestal or turning them into men is garbage. I’m not bitter at females themselves…but the establishment that has been lying to us for the better part of 50 years. That’s why when little miss princess looks down on you for whatever reason…just move on.

  52. @ Mark. Hehe.

    “Women, for so long, were this mirror that I used to judge myself, how they viewed me, how they accepted or rejected was so instrumental of my self esteem and in the determination of my actions.”


    For women to be able to choose, THE OFFER HAS TO BE THERE, it has to be given, it has to be as unconditional as possible. Given that women are limiting factor of procreation, MEN are constructed to have no other option but court them, in order to maximize procreation. Therefore – self esteem of men and their sense of manhood has to be so pathetically linked to those little pussies and women – if needed, have to be able to do just fine without men. Of course, not without children – even women have their masters. Children as the ultimate goal of evolution and ultimate master of this game.

    Al this game, PUA, mens movements, etc, are nothing but another attempt by men to be BETTER slaves, to be chosen by women. They are not doing this for themselves. They are doing it to be choosen by women, to be at their mercy as sucker husbands. Men are thinking – women like jerks, so I will be the jerk, women like this, so I will do this. SLAVERY. And what is more amusing, these poor slaves are thinking that they are unplugged? They themselves are the biggest slaves of matrix. For all their bravado, at the end of the day they are amusingly transparent.

    To extract from matrix, man have to extract from his slavish emotional responses coming form his manly body, first. He must master himself. This is freedom. After this, he could use women as he pleases, they have no more power over him.

  53. I think women themselves don’t internally understand the difference between what you are getting at here in attraction versus sexual arousal. I actually think there is an element of self-denial in perhaps some guilt is felt that is the alpha traits that trigger the purely arousal part.

    They don’t get it, fully anyway. Add to that anti-slut defense and there you go. It’s acceptable to find dads attractive and not acceptable to find masculinity arousing. Masculinity, to most, is still intrinsically tied up in the cad in todays culture. The thing is, masculinity /= cad, but many cads are masculine. It irritates me to no end that so many think the two cannot be separated. One of the commenters above noted the same. The alpha-est guy he knows is also kind. Strength does not preclude kindness. It’s knowing when and how to be kind. It’s also about not doling out kindness to every person one meets, rather civility. These men also know exactly when the civility needs to be shut off and when take off their gloves.

  54. @ gregg…

    Getting away from my emotional responses from women and my body is why I got into game. At first I saw it as a way to get women, later as I dug deeper I saw it as a way to become the best man I can be. The frame changed. I’ve had far more rewards for myself and not one included getting a woman.

    “It’s only after you’ve lost everything that you’re free to do anything.”

  55. To extract from matrix, man have to extract from his slavish emotional responses coming form his manly body, first. He must master himself. This is freedom. After this, he could use women as he pleases, they have no more power over him.

    This is it right here. All of it. Anything you are doing for improvement should be for yourselves. A women’s opinion on the matter is irrelevant, unless you decide otherwise.

  56. @ Mark Minter

    You put into words every ounce of thought as to the justification behind my most diffcult decision to not marry and have a family with a woman. The risks far outweigh the rewards and the behavior of women as a whole is disgusting. I have recently adopted the Fuck them attitude and only care about my interests and living a happy fulfilling life. I now use women as a means for pleasure, nothing more.

    When a man truly views the real nature of women from this perspective, he begins to pursue a real purpose in life. I felt guilty at first and have been shunned by my friends and their wives, but I know they’re just hating because they are trapped. What you write inspires men like me, you should have a blog or stick around.

    Your posts are the Red Pill.

  57. @Twan

    third, and in regard to this piece from today…
    with all this negativity being spoken when referring to marriages, i wonder what the dynamic is between the two side in a “successful” marriage. meaning, you know when you see couples that truly look happy, even after decades of being together, always into each other, always happy to be around each other, a real match. i’m just wondering outloud what they posess that other couples don’t. is it that he is just so alpha, and the higher value is maintained throughout? just curious to hear opinions on this

    I can only speak for myself and the introspection of my own twenty-eight year relationship with my husband; it is that woman has accepted her position in the relationship. More importantly she accepts his position. For a woman to defer in a relationship puts her at odds with everything that is defined she should be in current culture; she needs to separate from the female collective. She needs to grow up and mature in understanding. Just as a man needs to make his own life, follow his own self determined purpose, regardless of how the world views him, she needs to turn from what would be said of her, set herself apart from the world, and to his side. She understands that she is not to be his life, nor be the reason for his life, but she is a resource in which he has found value in for his life. If she pushes beyond adding(not being the focus of) benefit to what he does, she has overstepped her purpose. I believe this is what the best relationships have, and current culture has poisoned this idea in the minds of men and women both.
    My education in this area is a process, I can only speak what I understand to this point as well as what I have experienced; I believe it is not a matter that my husband is just so alpha above other men, but he is alpha above me. I accept that, I place myself under that. I carry my responsibilities and keep myself tuned to be the best asset to my husband. We draw looks and comments and are sometimes asked about our relationship from strangers, more so when it is discovered that we are married more than two decades; but there is a sense of dejection when we honestly define our roles to them. Our relationship is desired, but not by the means which we go about it. The relationships I see successful are the ones where each partner accepts the natural hierarchy, are aware of their own strengths and weaknesses, and work actively to complement the other’s; they do not drain one another. I am the first to admit that my relationship was not always such, and perhaps the ability to see how it didn’t work compared to how it does work helps me to see what I need to contribute for success. I find myself in a unique position in that I face disdain by many women who see my behavior toward my husband as weak and a somehow a threat to them personally, and yet there are some, very few, who crave what I have and want to know more about how to attain it, such as why I blog and comment so openly.

  58. Another thought about attraction isn’t arousal…

    For men we are aroused by women, but it would be better to not be attracted to their nature. If you know the truth about them, you wouldn’t be. At least with men we can be attracted to each other through friendships because we know what men like (respect, admiration, keeping to the code).

    Women are attracted to other women (or beta males)…but will never be sexually aroused by them. They are only aroused by men who don’t have an inkling…or who don’t care about what the feminie side is about.

  59. Mike C,

    Off topic, but you do equities and/or options trading, right? Could you recommend a few books on either the market, options, general economics, etc. that you have found helpful? Thanks

  60. Re; Mark Minter, I read what you’re saying and I can’t find much to disagree with, however, I will quote Roissy here:

    16. Dancing Monkey Hate

    Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

    If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
    Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    Don’t take that the wrong way, I completely cosign both of your epic posts, but even if you’ve realized that living for yourself is not only preferable, but also a future necessity of the Brave New World, you will still have to engage and entertain women to some degree. Just because you have a moral, personal or ethical disdain of using a particular Law of Power doesn’t excuse you from the power dynamic.

    It’s very easy to go the Advocatus Diaboli route and say “fuck it, why learn Game at all when ‘escorts’ are far more available and $300 satisfies my need for variety and frequency?” Of course there’s a greater reason for learning Game and becoming red pill aware of the feminine imperative, but once that wisdom is learned it makes more pragmatic sense to focus on, and enrich oneself as a means to satisfy a man’s sexual impulse.


    One of my more quotable lines was, “women should only ever be a compliment to a man’s life, never the focus of it”, but at what point is a prostitute a better compliment to your life than the plates you’re spinning?

  61. You are probably right. “Women may love the Beta, but only respect the Alpha.”

    I have been with my wife for 17 years and i ascribe to Athol’s MMSL model. I am more Beta than Alpha; I always have been. However, I realized that in my life, I have flowed between the two at different stages. I was far more Beta when I started college and by my junior year, flowed to more Alpha with confidence and swagger. I figured things out when the girl I chased for 2 years suddenly had to have me after I stopped supplicating to her needs and was an asshole. I then moved to CA and over two years, stayed more Alpha and carried that through business school where I met my wife. I was exciting, different and cool.

    15 years into marriage, I was clearly more Beta and did not know it. I had become an AFC and was clueless. I had kids, a job, a house etc. Couple that with career ups and downs (i.e. Financial uncertainty) and my wife was ripe for hypergamy and an affair. My confidence took a major hit; it fucked with my head as I questioned decisions, especially if they financially impacted my family. Luckily, my marriage was strong enough for me to turn things around.

    In the last 2 years, I got fit, mentally strong and have revived my inner Alpha. I started to “not give a shit,” and focused more on myself. My career got back on track and I got a new wardrobe. I have social and career DHV and I have found my swagger. I am clearly more Alpha than Beta. I am not hard core dominant; I have found a good balance that keeps my wife engaged, guessing and wanting. I am now attracting other women and enjoy the attention.

    My point is that it is not a clear equation. Every woman responds to dominance differently. My wife responds to my social dominance, charisma and how other women view me. Yes, I am referred to as a “great guy” or “sharp” by my wife’s single friends. I am not “Mr. Big,” but they covet what she has and even show her jealousy at times.

    While she makes six figures, I make 1.5 times her salary and my upside is greater. She is great looking (HB9 for a 45 Yr. old) by any standard and I know that there are plenty of divorced guys who would ask her out in a hearbeat if we ever split up. Still, she likes me to take control and lead. She makes sure that her SWD “frenemies” keep their distance.

    So, I am still Beta at my core; that is who I am. I believe in Athol’s theory that you find a balance.

  62. @ Rollo

    If I had unlimited resources like Tiger Woods and other Professional athletes the escort route seems far more appealing

  63. I know you been asked multiple times in many forms and there’s posts here that responds to the said comments. But since you co-signed, I need to ask this to understand better in this context. Mark post have a message to living life for himself and I’m not talking about that. You already addressed the “MGTOW” tone of the post with the dancing monkey. What about the main message about marriage? Not the message about avoiding it. But the message of slavery and the implicit message of the impossibility of intimacy through the illustration of his parents and grandparents no matter the type of men they were?

    I remember when of the InMalaFide bloggers posted with a link to that clip from the beginning of the Up Movie. It essentially embodies what men are looking to gain in a marriage. Of course pretty much all of that can be found outside. But the blogger posted it because it demonstrates the desire for much of men and slavery imagery and examples of his family and his own experience seems to demonstrate the futility of it – inside and outside of marriage. There’s also the implication – I mean a number here noted they are married (and yourself as well obviously), nothing have been directly said in regard to that (and I’m an example type of person).

  64. Man I have been reading this blog for about a year now and this is one of the best yet in terms of comments.

    Mark, my diatribe comment was not meant in a derogatory way, and in fact when I said ” the caveat”, I should’ve said “the one caveat”, as I by and far agree with everything else you wrote. I also agree with you that procreation is a completely optional choice for the truly aware Red Pill Man. In fact, as my last LTR was desperately begging me to stay with and marry her, she said “we don’t ever have to have kids if you don’t want, I promise”, as she knew my long held reservations about the whole enterprise. Not only are kids the ultimate leverage/blackmail weapon women use against men, but to be honest I’ve never had the desire.

    When I see my friends with kids and spend time around them, there are absolutely zero stirrings within me to embark on that route. I actually think most of my buddies (we’re all late 20’s) had zero desire too but many of them are married and I think they finally just succumbed to their wives’ female imperative. To be honest I do not see any additional fulfillment in their existence post-procreation. I do however see them drift entirely away from passions that we all shared when we were younger, which I still actively pursue.

    I am aware enough to realize my feelings about kids might change one day, which is the reason I consider how one might go about doing this successfully and not get raked over the coals in the process (legally, monetarily, etc). My father and mother stayed together and did an excellent job raising me and now that my dad has passed on I may wish to continue his legacy at some later point in life. What I have been grappling with is if I will even be able to do so, what with the legal constraints imposed by our modern day society (in the West). From issues of disciplining the children (I was spanked as a child and fully endorse the results) to suppressing the mother’s hypergamy to providing monetary stability in today’s economical climate, it would seem to be a herculean task indeed. At the point where I am now, the juice simply ain’t worth the squeeze. Not by a long shot…

    Mark, also wanted to say: Thank you for taking the time to post…your personal experience is inspiring for a younger man such as myself. Every once in a great while, in a moment of weakness, I find myself ruminating over the Lonely Old Man myth and it’s good to hear anecdotal evidence such as yours which so thoroughly discounts that psychological muzzle of the socio-feminine imperative.

    A modern day phoenix…I applaud your quest my man.

  65. Mike C,

    Off topic, but you do equities and/or options trading, right? Could you recommend a few books on either the market, options, general economics, etc. that you have found helpful? Thanks
    Yes, I’ve got a pretty big library of investment/trading books in my home office…probably around 100 books. IIRC, you were a business/finance major so you already have the basics of finance and accounting down I would assume. Here are a few good books that really drill down on specifics of analyzing a stock or trading
    For individual company analysis, get both of Peter Lynch’s books Beating the Street and One Up on Wall Street. They are basically how to manuals on analyzing and finding winning companies. Off the top of my head, I think he had a 29% annual return for the 13 years he managed a mutual fund.
    Another good book that is one of my favorites is How Charts Can Help You in the Stock Market by William Jiler. Some people are skeptical about charting and technical analysis and the debates on whether it works get heated….reminds me of the “what are alpha” debates, but I think understanding charting and price patterns is invaluable.
    For options, the BIBLE of options is Options as a Strategic Investment by Larry McMillan. He covers every option trading strategy imaginable. Once you get past that, Natenberg’s Option Pricing and Volatility covers some of the more advanced theory that professional traders have to know.
    I could put together a more detailed list later. I’m somewhat reluctant to post my e-mail up here in public, but I’m guessing Rollo has it since I’m registered here. If it isn’t a big deal, maybe you can contact him to get it, and we could take more of this discussion to e-mail. I love to talk trading and stocks so I’m glad to do it if you are interested.

  66. Great post, great comments. I can only speak from my own experience and from my observation it isn’t at all a question of what women want. That is by force of grammar alone a static definition. In my life the problem has been more along the lines that what they want changes at any given moment for reasons that are not entirely clear to them. The Hamster, or at least those I have come across has a very, very short attention span.

  67. I read it again. It part of why I started with “been asked multiple times” and “posts here that responds to said comments.”

    But in this case, it’s just not satisfactory. The final sentences answers that you understood the costs and risks and did it anyway because you want the ideal. That you rather have take the shot for the best reward rather than the best balance between reward and risks.

    However, it does not satisfy because, frankly, by the given definition, you are a slave! The linked post is in focus on the same area, but does not address the ultimate conclusion. One cannot make an entire argument linking work as drudgery, home as wallet destroying, and wife as a soul-sucking mercenary as take the comparison to slavery half-seriously. The conclusion only does not arrive to that point only if there some kind of modifier – whether it is exceptionalism (whether by skill or luck), poetic license, or misunderstood meaning – or just outright being used and miserable. There’s no being “half-miserable” as a “half-slave”, it can’t make sense by definition. Either you are or you’re not.

    Thus my question remain unanswered. It’s not about why you made the shot. If going for marriage or similar lines so chump, doesn’t that mean you’re (you in the plural sense) a chump? If so, doesn’t that bother you?

  68. MikeC,

    I’m actually a chemical engineer, but I would like to get more of an in depth view of the market and trading. I already have a basic understanding, as my best friend is an options trader on the CBT and I try to pick his brain a lot, but never hurts to keep learning. I also plan on going to B-school in a few years so it will help in that area too. I’ll definitely take a look at the books you recommend and see what I can absorb.

    Rollo, if you could give me Mike’s email, or vice versa, it would be appreciated. Thanks

  69. For the guys who are saying something like “keeping a woman aroused is too much work, why bother?”, I think you are having a failure of imagination due to a sour grapes attitude.

    You ask the question as if it’s rhetorical, instead of stretching out past your current experience to imagine one where it would be worth it.

    What if becoming a dominant personality who is highly skilled with women were possible? What if after many many years and many many women, it were no longer an imposition upon your attention, but a hobby that you enjoy?

    We have many hobbies that require time and dedication and that we get better at with practice. Women is just one of those.

    And as to the benefits of this hobby, again – it’s a failure of imagination to not notice. It’s the sex on tap, of course, but more. A love slave who acts as a 24/7 personal attendant.

    Some say it takes too much time and effort to maintain this, but you neglect that you are getting cheap labor and therefore increasing your worldly effectiveness.

    And then of course there are the hormones and actions that fill your life with joy that come from a live active engaged romance.

    All of this that I’m talking about is not theoretical. If you are advanced and skilled with handling women, the idea of “why bother” just sounds silly. Not bothering is a HUGE step down in life satisfaction.

  70. I think men have idealizations about marriage that are fed to them during their blue pill upbringings, and not until they have their “now what?” moment after they get married do they realize what marriage is all about. As most divorced men will attest, there is certainly a terrible risk and high probability for personal life-lasting devastation inherent in marriage.

    Is it a raw deal? Yes. Will women ever appreciate the gravity of the risk men assume in marriage? No. But just as your Up movie illustration exemplifies, men still want to get married. Even thrice divorced men, still think #4 will work because they want it to be real.

    By your definition I’m slave, but I don’t feel like one. I know what my responsibilities are now, and I know how the game functions so I use it to make my marriage the best it can be in its given state. Had I known about the red pill prior to proposing to my wife I likely wouldn’t have, but I’d still want to even in the knowledge about the possibility of a man-eating panther waiting behind that chance decision.

    As I wrote about before, I Just Get It now. Many of the men relating Minter’s experience got married prior to taking the red pill. Without that terrible experience they wouldn’t have the insight to relate the red pill wisdom for other men. If I’m a slave then at least I’m knowledgable enough to recognize that, and turn that ‘slavery’ into something else.

    However I don’t think I’m a slave, because I determine the frame of my marriage. Yes, I know that only flies so far in light of how the system is aligned against men in general, but If I didn’t want to be married I wouldn’t be. Beyond remaining faithful to Mrs. Tomassi, there’s very little I don’t do now that I wouldn’t if I were single.

    I love my wife and I know she loves me, but I now understand the disparity between how the sexes interpret love. If I didn’t accept that, I wouldn’t be married. Marriage is a losing proposition for most men and it’s only declining with every generation as Mark detailed, but there are notable exception to this, and usually it’s because a man intrinsically or learnedly understands how women and the game works. If you asked me how to replicate my marriage I wouldn’t be able to tell you, but I know the foundations.

    If you’re going to take the horrible risk that marriage represents, it can only be on your terms insofar as it’s possible. No compromise, no delusions of equalism, only your frame.

  71. to this all marriage as slavery topic:

    I DO agree, that as long as we are doing it fully informed, from the position of strenght and freedom, there are no limits and there is nothing “wrong” or “right”. If the guy wants to marry and have children, be it. If this is his mission, great, let him have it. If he wants to be single with fuck buddies, so be it. If he wants to be alone, pursue freedom and start a spriritual path, let him embrace it. Just do it like mature men.

    But there is no “if you can´t beat them, join them” for me. I CAN. So do you. There is no “you HAVE to entertain them if you want them” for me. I NEEDN´´T. Neither do you. That is maybe all I want to say.

  72. There is a reason men don’t want a love slave. It’s because you’ve been conditioned to never even imagine it. The very possibility has been beaten out of you by feminism and the feminine imperative since you first squirted into the world.

    I was 29 when I first visited Bali on a business trip. A cute 26 year old girl insisted I stay at her place. It was here that I got my first sight of how Indonesians handle servants.

    Quite an eye opener.

    “Go prepare me a dish of cut up fruit.”

    Can you imagine? A servant? Shocking. It seemed somehow a bit wrong. How can one person deserve such attitude from another?

    For the last decade or so of my life, my women have been personal servants. “Suck my dick.” “Go make me a glass of carrot juice.” “Make this recipe here.” “Go do these errands.” “Go take care of these financial matters.” Most work doesn’t require a command. The cleaning is just taken care of. Sometimes the girl will ask to cut my toenails. I don’t even have to initiate sex. And offerings of devotion and passion are routine; the girl will kiss me passionately before going out to do errands, buy little gifts, dress attractively for me both around the house and when we go out, and sing me love songs that bring tears to her eyes. Even how she sweeps the floor is a devotional.

    And my girls have been absolutely obsessed crazy about me.

    Before you say that this is only possible because I’m in SE Asia, understand that this is not how SE Asian men get treated by their mates. SE Asia is highly matriarchal, and the women rule the house. In the whole world women tend to rule the house. And other expats don’t do this. I’ve never met any other man anywhere who does this – in any country. It doesn’t just come with the territory of being in SE Asia. It is an anomaly for the man to take the reigns, to wear the pants, and to have his women be addicted to him emotionally and sexually to the point of devotion in all her actions throughout the day.

    And yet this is what I’m good at and routinely do and come to expect as natural.

    I’m of the belief that wherever I go I will easily replicate this. I’m off to China early next year, and expect the same – only perhaps with more than one girl again.

    Why bother?

    Why not?

  73. xsplat – listen man, you are enjoing acquisitive mode and you are enthusiastic like little boy 🙂 You have not experienced it before, or what? This mode lasts thill she catches the man – and the purpose of it is to be whatever the situation calls for to catch the man. I witnessed it many times in my women even in my country.

    But we are NOT discussing the acquisitive mode – we are discussing MARRIAGE, understand? We are discussing the relationship in which women is no more in acquisitive mode, she already succeeded in catching her man. After this, deeper layers of her psyche activate. Just let me tell you – it is completely different sport.

  74. Gregg: some people prolong the acquisitive mode, then leave the girl after a year or two for the next. Serial monogamy. Or parallel monogamy.

    It’s an option.

    They way I hear the anti marriage guys talk is that there are only two options. Avoid intimacy altogether or be a chump slave who gets taken to the cleaners.

    I’m pointing out a male centric view of relationships that is a third option.

    Have you ever heard anyone else point out this option? Do you think it’s a good one? More appealing than pump and dump, to those who can pull it off?

  75. What ruined marriage is when the government got involved. No fault divorce, and the courts being on the side of women. Way back in the old days a woman couldn’t divorce her husband…seemed like the smart thing to do.

    It makes me wonder why homosexuals want the government to get involved with their setup. Or how a divorce lawyer would handle the split…give everything to the more feminine partner????

  76. xsplat

    I have been doing this myself for years. Now I am much more careful. I do not advice manipulating emotion of women for a long time, because it is very painful for her when she becomes disilusioned and women in acquisitive mode is apt to do some irrational and potentially dangerous things even to herself – all in desperate attempt of “catching those genes”.

    I understand your point but I think that those men WANT to marry, moreover they NEED to marry and they NEED to have those children and family. Therefore it is all or nothing for them. I can´t say what options is good. I only know what option is good for me, given my mission. I am just trying to offer my humble experiences here when I feel that it migh help to clarify some point. Every man has his own head and his own purpose – it is ultimately up to him. Hope, your way is good for you. wish you the best.

  77. Yes, women do crazy things when they realize they aren’t going to get you to marry them. That’s why in order to date the man must take care of his anonymity and portability. The lifestyle is a gestalt – you can’t just take your favorite piece of it.

    As to the pain that women feel – well – that’s life. There is no way to avoid either a painful breakup or the relationship turning painfully boring or some sort of eventual negative outcome. Either the pain will be on the man’s terms, or the womans. Sometimes we switch it up. Heartbreak is inevitable – but so what? That’s no reason not to go full out with having passionate romances. People get hurt. Then move on. It’s part of life. A life well lived is going to include the giving and taking of a lot of heartbreak.

    As for men who want to marry needing that lifestyle, the only advice I could offer is to try to prolong the acquisitive mode indefinitely. My current girl has been with me two years, and the longest I’ve done is 2.5, so I’m no expert on that, but it’s basically what I hear from other guys who have longer relationships. Always keep her on probation. But I’d agree with you that the dream of lifetime fulfilling monogamy is unrealistic at worst, or hit and miss at best.

  78. “By your definition I’m slave, but I don’t feel like one.”

    Well, there’s the answer. If you don’t feel like a slave, then you’re not. The story of Mark is a story of misery. Working in a field and in an environment that he hates. The money gained is used for things he does not want to spend. Going home to a wife who seems to have never really love/aroused/attracted to him.

    The key theme is misery. Created because everything he does in the day is not what he wants to do. Working in something, but against his desires. Spending, but against his will. Accompanied by people he does not enjoy. Obviously, he lived in misery. Marriage is slavery. A chump game.

    But again, the keyword is misery. If you don’t feel like one, then it is not slavery. The entire case of Mark story of Marriage equality to slavery is because of the massive amount of misery. Thus, this mean there’s a bit of a false equation. Not that marriage isn’t high risk with society making increasingly worse. Just the right lesson, the logical conclusion without thinking about what makes marriage just slavery or not is MGTOW and disdain for any type of coupling (as it is slavery).

  79. I guess what I’m saying Gregg is that I believe that men have intimacy needs that can only be met through sexual and emotional intimacy with women. Any solution to a life well lived has to take that into account.

    I believe that solutions that don’t are inadequate.

    I believe that men who propose solutions that don’t include intimacy to do so because they don’t believe that satisfying intimacy is possible. Sour grapes, in other words.

  80. alphas don’t have tantrums.. so i fail to see your point. alpha’s are cool under pressure, calm in the storm. they preform tasks effortlessly. there are many ways a beta can present flashes of alpha and none of them require a tantrum.

    i’m thinking you are operating from Naomi Wolf’s definition of alpha.. which couldn’t be more wrong. she caused al gore to lose his chance at becoming president because she taught him to “throw tantrums” on stage and at one point crossed the stage and almost threw some papers at bush. bush remained calm and un-flustered throughout the debate and demonstrated a presidential attitude. that was the moment when a card carrying dem, me, decided to vote for bush instead.

  81. xsplat

    my last comment, concerning this post, I have already written too much and according to my point of view, all has been said, several times. Of course, men have intimacy and emotional needs. We are born that and we are made that way.

    But please take into account possible tranformation that might come form experiencens, knowledge, etc. There are things in this word that coud change those “needs” you are born with. Therefore we have men that pursue spiritual path completely without women, therefore we have men that are living without women, cos they honestly do not want any. I see that you could not understand this. Your need for women is too strong and I guess it has not been properly satisfied yet. You are basically consuming women. Done that, been there in my teens and twenties. Everything has its time.

    And to sour grapes – divorced man, that sacrified all he had for his wife only to witness it all being taken from him, might undergo some transformation and it has nothing to do with sour grapes, man. I handled many those things and I witnessed damaged souls of many man. It has to do more with self esteem, hope, justice, belief, willingness to live, life energy, etc. Therefore they are trying to warn all guys – cos they honestly think that you simply CAN NOT WIN in this marriage business. I it sincere and honest feeling they are trying to share – therefore is resonated among guys – look at marks posts. I understand their point. Enviroment belong to women in marriage – and they know it now.

    And to those lifestyle issues – man that already had his share as a young guy – like myself, again, is looking at women form completely different point of view from yours. There is nothing to gain for me – just repetition. You are still very enthusiastic about women – its good, it brings joy, life energy, etc. Knowledge is universal, therefore I sometimes try to clarify things. But our paths are individual. I can not be so enthusiastic about your lifesytle, I enjoyed harems many years ago. But I definitely understand that and wish you the best.

  82. Ok another excellent reason to stay single, the comments are what keep me coming back here @ mark minter..awesome post…

    Women can rewrite history to work with their current emotions.

    Like for instance, replace I will love you forever in sickness and in health, to ‘TODAY I FEEL Like I will love you forever…blah’ you get the point.

    My ex-wife was a miserable polar disorder depressive person (threating sucicide) and constantly moping around, sucked the life right outta me for years…Can’t please someone or have a life with some who doesn’t actually want to live. She left me for a unemployed personal trainer, who treated her like crap and most likely dumped her soon after he found his power game/married woman check list ticked off. His actions lead me to taking the red pill, now I think of women I treat them like a dog or a small child, and train them when they do good, and leave or deny affection when they do bad – NO SUPPLICATING.

    Of course I’m put in the angry bitter divorced man book by friends and family..

    so I found the other man’s email and I thanked him ( I found his email address somehow doing some web stalking, I wrote this before I found the manosphere)

    This is the one and only email or contact I will have with you. So sit down, have a glass of coolaide…shut up the fuck up and listen,

    I want to ask you a question.

    She was a tragic woman, did you save her?
    Did it feel good?
    Did you find yourself drawn to the damsel in distress, or was it something more sinister?

    Did you find some sick pleasure in taking my wife, bending her over and drilling her like a jackhammer? Did you feel pride at humiliating a man in the most intimate way possible?

    Shit yeah ya did! Fuck, who wouldn’t. Makes you feel alive!! Like a real Man huh!?

    You dont know me, and I dont know you. Whatever you want to think of someone, try and meet them before you make judgement – and I dont try to do that.

    I want you to know, I thank you. You saved me from the hell of conformity. You made me realise that (WIfeName) was a lost cause. Maybe you worked that out sooner than I did and that would make you much smarter than me, but know that really did try to work it out with her, and all the issues within her soul no man can get in there. So I really do hope for her sake, you aint still leading her on for booty calls. She is a titanic, and I am forever grateful I did not go down with her.

    I was lucky to escape, somehow. Now I have a sexy czech woman ballerina who is flexable as you can not believe, makes love like a porno star…and has a ass that is like a fresh peach, so yeah..all’s well that end’s well.

    I want you to know, that what you did to me fucked up my opinion of women, and now I really couldn’t care less.

    One day you’ll lose someone important to you, you’ll see its painful. When it happens to you, it literally feels like someone has reached in and torn the heart right out of your chest. I felt numb, a deep betrayal, and angry for a long time.

    But then I realised the truth. She was the one at fault, and that sometimes Women can and will lie, Im sure she tried very hard to make it seem like it was my fault… And often women do act ruthlessly in their own self interest, and I will not take the blame for her sin..so I moved on.

    You know what I like about you? Nothing. I laugh at you, you don’t screw another man’s wife. You’re garbage.

    Is she better off now? Ask yourself this. Bravo to you, She tried to kill herself several times on my watch. Did you know that about her? Did you try to understand it? I did at least.

    No man is perfect, no marrige is perfect.

    Thanks for the wakeup call, no women is worth it, My new motto is fuck and spred my horrible seed ‘Cause bitches ain’t nuthin’ but hoes and trix’

    Fuck you and thank you at the same time.



  83. What you guys describe as “alpha” is just the guy who screws a lot of woman. You guys have a very idialized image about this kind of guy. He is strong, he’s a leader… All bullshit.

    The ONLY thing alpha’s have in common is that they screw a lot of woman. Why? Because they project attraction. Most alphas are stupid as fuck but you want to be around them because they are never boring. They project a certain kind of “energy”.

    This starts to happens when girls are 13 (!!). They have their first sexpartner. The alphas have their first chick also around this age. Around 18-19 she’s screwing one alpha guy after another. All the action happens during school-age.

    When girls are 22 (!!) they already start looking for a beta-provider. University/school is over and she wants to settle down and have kids. Her sexual prime has already passed! The alphas get lesser and lesser woman and probably ends his life in misery. His sexual prime was around 21. The beta’s start to get action when they are 24, and the ONLY thing left for them is be a provider; works his ass off for a woman who does not want him sexually. This means as a guy over 24, the ONLY thing you have left is the beta-provider frame. The alphas get also together with a chick, why? Because he’s stupid.

    There is no point in becoming “an alpha” in your adult life (<24) because there are no more woman left. They all think about a few thing now: kids, a big home, furniture and pets.

  84. i read mark minter’s rant and the only thing i came away with is he needs therapy to cure his bitterness. it should not be required reading for any healthy man. while i can relate to his troubles with women, what it boils down to is you’ve been picking the wrong women and getting hurt by them. then you allow yourself to believe all women are the same to protect your damaged emotions and justify putting shields up. relationships are hard. it’s taken me a year to get it right with my g/f. it took some therapy on my part but it also took the right woman to believe in me and stand by me while working on her issues as well. that’s love gents and proof she’s a keeper. i speak from experience that if you bring your baggage in to a relationship.. a woman will smell it on you and be repulsed. you have to let it go. if you treat women the way roissy says you should… dont’ expect a long term or healthy relationship to emerge. roissy is a cad and gives advice for other cads.

  85. I’m getting the feeling that I’m imposing on you Gregg by pinpointing issues that you don’t have the mood to discuss.

    But you last comment brought up two issues I didn’t want to let lie there.

    1) The idea of using women up
    2) The idea of having had enough women, and now being at a more spiritual place where they aren’t needed.

    1. I do take the best years of a womans life. But only a few of them. When I talk to girls years later I rarely hear any regret from them about it. Instead I hear of how those were some of the best times of their life. How they still think fondly of them. They don’t see it as using up their life.

    2. Perhaps as you say, context changes our view. Perhaps your testosterone levels have dropped. It may not be so much that you’ve been there done that, and therefore don’t need to do it anymore, as much as you don’t have the hormones driving you to do that anymore.

    I’ve lived on long solitary meditation retreats in my early twenties where I didn’t masturbate. During those years of intense and often solitary discipline my testosterone levels dropped dramatically, and I no longer had an incessant and strong urge to fuck. It took a week or two of living in the world with a girlfriend to even be able to fuck normally again – to get the juices back flowing. At the time I had cultivated great renunciation at a very subtle level, but that only fueled an ever more sublime and powerful sex drive, where there was less grasping but more energy and more passion. I didn’t have to come anymore if I didn’t want to and powerful energy shot up my spine. I was a fuck machine. Full of testosterone again.

    I have heard before from older guys reasons why they think they are above sex. One guy said he considered that his masculine and feminine energies were in balance now, and that meant he no longer grasped after feminine energy. Ya. Right. It’s just that he got old and his testosterone levels dropped. Let’s see how in balance his internal feminine energy is after a week of testosterone cream to bring his hormone levels back up to a youthful level.

    Sometimes during an LTR my drive to meet new women will drop off, as I get domesticated and my hormone levels drop. It feels comfortable. But I also feel I’m losing an important animal level of drive. I feel less creative, less impelled. Less alive. The T that goes along with the lifestyle of travel and meeting new women is invigorating. It’s pleasant to dip into troughs of comfort, but sometimes I prefer the invigorating freshness of feeling challenged and manly. There is a whole different attitude that comes with T that is a thing onto itself – a gestalt of being. Being manly. I decided that I’m going to try to keep my T levels up until I die. Right now I’m doing so with lifestyle diet. Maybe one day I’ll supplement. I will not go gently in to that night, and come to a “higher” place where I no longer feel impelled to fuck women. I wan’t to feel that fire in my belly until the moment my heart stops beating.

    I’ve been there and done that about not needing women. It’s nothing special.

  86. Also, I’m sensing an element of “We men don’t need you as much as you need us! If you won’t play by our good ol time valued rules, I’m taking my ball and going home. That’ll teach you!” retributive justice emotion going on from the guys who resonate strongly with Marks life story.

    I just don’t see that as the best option to enjoy life. It seems like an initial step along the path to enjoying women, not the best way to deal with women.

    It’s avoidant.

  87. People are different, xsplat. I know you basically disagree with that — I remember that from your posts on Roissy way back when. But some of us are really not that interested in women at this stage in our lives.

    I have a GF myself, but if I didn’t it wouldn’t be a problem or concern for me. I didn’t for years after my divorce, and it didn’t bother me. I happened across my current GF, but didn’t seek her out, or any other woman out. SO, yeah, I was open to it, but if it didn’t happen, I would be cool with that as well. It’s about re-orienting your life, really, or basically deciding what you want to do with your life. Some guys are going to be wanting/needing women in their lives more than others are — people are different.

    Mark’s posts contain a lot of validity, to be honest, although I don’t quite agree with his punchline.

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