Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

968 comments on “Ovulation & Dread

  1. @kfg

    “A 16 year old, drop out pothead looks at a rock and sees just a rock. An 80 year old engineer looks at a rock and may not see a rock at all.
    What the rock “is” is highly contextual.”

    “everyone lives in the same universe therefore they’re all experiencing the same environment. their interpretations (such as yours) of the same shit may differ, though.”

    seems like you’re saying something i already said…

  2. @Dutchman: “I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, although I haven’t EXPRESSED it to her yet. She shit tested me this morning about not helping the kids get ready for school and I didn’t get mad or anything, but I’m sure she could tell I was irritated about it.

    What, some 98% of communication is non-verbal, so by you first saying you haven’t EXPRESSED it, but then say, “I’m sure she could tell I was irritated,” shows that you are all over the place.

    Regardless of whether you verbalize it or not, if you are feeling it, she’s feeling in with your non-verbals.

    Dude, try some Sage oil, seriously. I believe it has helped me relax more lately (even if it’s a psychosomatic response to the marketing on the label). That and seriously work on concentrating on you and your frame.

    You: That was a great dinner you cooked.
    Instead: Damn, that meal made my dick hard it was so good.

    Your wife: You didn’t help with the kids.
    Better You: Sorry, I was jerking off at the time.

    See how those responses are all about self amusement. My marriage may not last, but I’m having a great time destroying my wife’s shit tests that are similar to your wife’s. And as YaReally mentions, I always try to stear shit tests into the sexual.

  3. @scribbler
    I’m around your age.
    In answer to your question, I’ve found a couple of mindsets that I practice that have changed my interactions with women. I emphasize practice because everyone needs to practice to improve, no matter your initial skill level or your ultimate potential.

    Become a student of body language. This was the first big step for me and I always try to evaluate it in every interaction (with women AND men).

    I game every woman in my life 18yo to 68yo. Kinda did this when I was in college, but quit for quite a while. Started back up about 2 years ago. It changed all of my interactions. It helps with IDGAF, because there are no special interactions.

    Second, I just assume that AWALT and the person they are the same as is my 6 year old sister. Surprise! There are very few women that are offended by that, even in the workplace. Just don’t be a dick about it.

    Finally, I know that the stuff above is simplistic and volumes could be written on each, but essentially I attribute these practices to helping me swim through life.

  4. @Scray: “seems like you’re saying something i already said…”

    I think you would be at considerable difficulty to define “rock” without making some rather sloppy assertions. Defining a rock would be considerably more difficult.

    See “precision.”

    @Andy: “I feel like I need to be stoned to understand this conversation.”

    Quite the contrary, you need to be . . . stone sober.

  5. @Sentient

    “Take her by the hand to the bedroom and go for it. See what happens…”

    I’ve tried that before and usually get nowhere. But I’ll keep trying. I think I’ve just been doing it in a really uncalibrated way.

    @newlyaloof

    “What, some 98% of communication is non-verbal, so by you first saying you haven’t EXPRESSED it, but then say, “I’m sure she could tell I was irritated,” shows that you are all over the place.”

    You’re not wrong about that.

    “Dude, try some Sage oil, seriously. I believe it has helped me relax more lately (even if it’s a psychosomatic response to the marketing on the label).”

    Seems like woo woo.

  6. “@SJF
    since he’s not a chick i want to bang, i think i’ll just treat him like a man and give him an honest chance to state whatever it is he’s trying to say clearly and concisely. like a man.”

    “….i’m gonna go ahead and say that AS OF RIGHT NOW, the scrayvestigation has concluded that there just isn’t any substance to what you’re trying to say.”

    Scray:

    Congratulations on being young and im·pet·u·ous.

    You just gave the wrong answer in the first paragraph. Game does matter among guys in a group of guys. It’s called social intelligence. Or military brotherhood. It is the way of men. Guys testing you for honor among men, is not something to be taken lightly. But then again, I lost my adolescent mindset in dealing with men a good 45 years ago. Probably in group sports. (and never developed a frat-boy mindset, because we didn’t go Greek at my college in the early 80’s)

    As an older guy, I know KFG was testing you and by your emotional sub-communication you failed the test to see what you are made of. You sub-communicate annoyance even though you have a scroll wheel.

    Scribbler was right. I am trying to hard. And I’m loving it–the commenting in the manosphere and reading about game thing. And I’m liking your contributions here Scray. Keep in mind some of us are at a hell-of-a-lot different station in real life. And realize how universal game is.

    And just so you know I am testing you. Shit testing.

  7. @kfg

    lol

    ““everyone lives in the same universe therefore they’re all experiencing the same environment. their interpretations (such as yours) of the same shit may differ, though.””

    interpret: “to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms” — define

    “I think you would be at considerable difficulty to define “rock” without making some rather sloppy assertions. Defining a rock would be considerably more difficult.”

    confirmed. restating what i already said — concisely and clearly. like a man.

    who are you trying to impress?
    why the act?
    why the gimmick?

  8. “If you have the free time to balance gym AND game, cool, but every night you stay in and hit the gym or are too sore/tired to go out or pass up an invite to go out so you can avoid bad food and keep your 12% bodyfat etc, you’re a night behind where your game could be at.”

    If it came down to practicing game or hitting the gym on any given day I would hit the gym every time. Personal health should be above all, I keep the outings for the weekends if anything.

    And on the whole looking good vs game topic, looking good alone is not optimal and game alone is not optimal, being jacked and having game is. Im perfectly ok with getting ripped 5 days a week and building game the other two days.

  9. @SJF

    “You just gave the wrong answer in the first paragraph”

    so he is a chick who is shit testing me?

    ” Or military brotherhood. It is the way of men”

    uh…
    men just care about the bottom line.
    if you have some good shit to say, spit it out. if you don’t, w/e.
    im just trying to find anything useful in what’s being said. so far, nothing.

    that’s why men build civilizations lol
    men sit around and go ‘wait, what THE FUCK are you actually saying, is it ACTUALLY useful?’

    “Guys testing you for honor among men, is not something to be taken lightly. ”

    lol

    “And just so you know I am testing you. Shit testing.”

    you’re behaving like a woman behaves around a high value man?

  10. @dutchman

    “Hey can you guys take a look at my post on the previous page re: wife giving me shit this morning. HABD says that it was a clear IOI/she wanted me to fuck her but like I’m having a hard time internalizing that because it didn’t feel like that AT ALL at the time lol.”

    anytime you get nagged, boundaries are getting pushed and pressed.
    the answer is always to put her in her place.

    you have to calibrate, of course, but you need to stand firm — you didn’t do anything wrong, and that’s how shit it is, kind of attitude.

    i don’t know if she wanted to fuck you right then, but it was an opportunity to make her want to fuck you.

    what will help you a lot is (not sure if you’re already doing it) talking to other women throughout the course of your day. just say hi, hello. talk to young hot women.

    you need to get into that abundance mindset.

  11. ” . . . who are you trying to impress?”

    When I walk away from my desktop computer, I won’t even think of anybody here at all until sitting down at my desk again reminds me that they exist.

  12. @Dutch

    You’re uncalibrated af, its like you read a few posts on rp and want to instantly flip a switch on your wife. When you reach where you are trying to get to, you wont need be figuring out ways to maneuver around her nagging because there wont be any to begin with.

  13. Me “And just so you know I am testing you. Shit testing.”

    You “you’re behaving like a woman behaves around a high value man?”

    No, seeing if you are a potential pick for my post-apocalyptic fantasy team.

    You’re not.

    Game is more universal that obtaining easy pussy.

  14. When I walk away from my desktop computer, I won’t even think of anybody here at all until sitting down at my desk again reminds me that smartphones exist

    just walk away dude, don’t get in a fight

  15. I don’t even know why most are assuming there were IOI’s in the negging, why would you want to even show interest and try getting in after that behaviour towards you?

    Destroy the shit tests and deploy dread.

  16. @SJF

    “No, seeing if you are a potential pick for my post-apocalyptic fantasy team”

    so you, a man, do something that women do to high value men for the purpose of building a fantasy team…

    sounds gay, but maybe to you it’s something about the manly brotherhood bushido honor or whatever.

    i’m just here trying to help. if kfg or you are something beyond KJs with weird and seemingly limiting beliefs, hey, that’s great…and when i see that i’ll stop trying to help you guys. but that’s all im doing based on what i see.

    i don’t have a quarrel with either of you, i’m just trying to help and pay it forward, as was done to me in the past and still in the present.

    and the funny thing is that my opening point here was that game will work just as well for an old guy as it will for a young guy. an old guy with sloppy game will have results on par with the young guy who has sloppy game. this seems to have caused some kind of stir up for whatever reason…

  17. @SJF: “No, seeing if you are a potential pick for my post-apocalyptic fantasy team.”

    At the moment I’m trying out Robert Mitchum, Henry Rollins and Elliott Hulse.

    “Game is more universal that obtaining easy pussy.”

    This. Which an older man is more likely to understand than a younger one.

    @Redlight: “just walk away dude, don’t get in a fight”

  18. Rollo – “If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.”

    Well said. I agree, and for those who do not see this, on the surface everything seems ambiguous and paradoxical until one realizes the ONLY objective is to obtain and maintain power and control. Only when that fact is completely understood and admitted can one accept that there is no merit to any ideal, romantic or otherwise, other than the fact that any ideals are nothing more than tools or pawns used for manipulating. When this is comprehended, everything makes sense and the net results become logical expected outcomes of intent and behavior. That which seemed irrational is in fact very rational….and effective. Idealization in any context is practiced at risk to the idealist.

  19. Liz,
    “Furthermore: I went on the pill for our honeymoon and immediately started getting angry at him for just about everything. I was on oral contraception for about two months before he threw the pills into the trash because they made me crazy and “we weren’t having sex anyway”. I’ve been happy and on even keel ever since I got off of them, and we get along very very well.”

    It must have been one of the early high-dose pills. Modern ones have as little hormones as possible to minimize side effects. In the recent years I met a boyfriend and went on one, went off when the boyfriend left, went on again when I met the next guy, and went off when we got married. Felt no mood changes at all. I’ll probably get a prescription again after having enough kids because it seems to work just fine, and maybe they’ll invent something with even lower dose by then.

  20. “… that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding….”

    Does it make sense that women will also mate guard a beta provider to prevent loosing his provisional value especially if he is a high producer?

  21. @kfg: When I walk away from my desktop computer, I won’t even think of anybody here at all until sitting down at my desk again reminds me that they exist.
    .
    Likewise. You ain’t all that.

  22. “It must have been one of the early high-dose pills. Modern ones have as little hormones as possible to minimize side effects. In the recent years I met a boyfriend and went on one, went off when the boyfriend left, went on again when I met the next guy, and went off when we got married. Felt no mood changes at all. I’ll probably get a prescription again after having enough kids because it seems to work just fine, and maybe they’ll invent something with even lower dose by then.”

    It was in the 90s, so not VERY early, but I think it was probably higher dose than today’s pills. Just wanted to throw my experience out there, about the influence of hormones on the body. I never went back to hormones after that, even to experiment and see if there are better dosages. It wasn’t worth it.

  23. “My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.”

    WTF !!! ???

    Isn’t both a reaction to her initiative? Aren’t both a response to her behavior in a frame that she controls? Aren’t both nothing more than attempts to negotiate desire that you perceive she lacks? Either she wants you or she doesn’t. If she wants you more than others then there is no need to “use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman”. Genuine desire does not need to be “promoted”.

  24. “The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

    You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

    See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.”

    But genuine desire is not negotiable. You either have the goods they want or you don’t. You ARE the goods or you are not. There is no amount of cheap shallow bullshit that will “outsell” the real thing. Either you are a healthy fit attractive male or you are not and no amount of cheap used car salesmanship will over come weak insecure flabby sheepishness.

    Stop the mental masturbating and pontificating, eat healthy, drink lots of water and get your ass in the gym.

    1. NBTM, again with your literalist autism. There are about 300+ comments in this thread alone disproving your tired assertions that desire, genuine desire, can be stimulated in women.

      You need to go back and review The Desire Dynamic post again. While it’s true that desire cannot be negotiated, you can do many things to provoke genuine desire.

      You’re never going to prompt real desire in the marriage counselors office by bartering X amount of dishes washed for X amount of sexual accessibility with your frigid wife. You can however change your mind about yourself and employ things like passive dread or stoke social proof and modify your own and her behavior in a Red Pill context that will achieve the sex life, Frame control and genuine desire every man should require from ANY woman he thinks merits his attention.

      One is negotiation from the egalitarian perspective that women will rationally override their firmware and somehow force themselves to genuine desire, the other is an organic, complementarian, natural approach that requires no negotiation to make a woman come to that genuine desire.

      Any Frame a woman choses to be a part of must exist before she chooses it. How do you show her what your Frame looks like? Define ‘shallow bullshit’ and how the ‘real deal’ develops from it?

      YaReally and many others have already proven how predictably that ‘bullshit’ can and does outsell the ‘real deal’ with women. What’s genuine about yourself is ultimately defined by you.

  25. Scray:

    “so you, a man, do something that women do to high value men for the purpose of building a fantasy team…”

    In real life, I do it all the time among men to vet them in order to find whether I will be wasting time engaging with them. Time is a very valuable commodity. But this need for time does depend on whether a man is doing a lot of different things that require quality time in his life. And whether he works on them as if his life depended on doing them well. (A large business, 2 1/2 day work-week, marriage, children, a wildlife habitat farm, country club socializing, having a core group of men in real life. That’s my frame)

    Perhaps you missed my narrative here over the past two years. I’ve told it ad nauseum and it doesn’t bear repeating. I have many roles and I relish them. And the peak experiences that just keep coming.

    And I have Law #10 on lock-down. And that works well for me.

    I don’t know what KJ refers to. And I don’t have weird limiting beliefs. I have been able to turn my battleship in life around through red pill awareness and game. I truly feel the power to control my circumstances and the outcome of my mission in life, which is well defined by me with my MPofO, not that of others.

    I do appreciate you paying it forward in regards to PUA game. Thank you. You are good at that and you’re writings about it here are very much appreciated.

    and the funny thing is that my opening point here was that game will work just as well for an old guy as it will for a young guy

    And I agree 1000%. And I will raise you the fact that PUA game tactics are fungible for old married man game (I don’t feel old or unappreciated). My wife’s pussy pretty much feels the same way it did 27 years ago when I I had a SNL out after work for a few beers, one night. So there’s that. I’m monogamous and your game and your pay it forward is universally applicable to me. So keep up the comments in this regard. They are good.

    I don’t have a quarrel with you either, unless you start talking about stuff I don’t agree with outside of game. Or larger issues in men’s life. Or don’t understand my FRAME.

    And if you don’t believe we just had a dust-up that doesn’t preclude us from shaking hands, patting each other on the back, sitting down for a virtual beer and moving on to the next topic, or field report, then I’m still not considering you for my team. Because that is the firmware masculine men operate with. (We’re on the same team.)

  26. @NBTM – A rare moment of appreciation wrt your first comment on pre-rejection as essentially an ego buffer for women enabled for the most part by the difference between our sex drives. Puts initial resistance and shit tests into perspective and also why women seem to enjoy resisting a bit.

    @All – Wow, I can’t tell how glad I am to not be the asshole in a scrap on these pages, lol

    @Andy – Another point of connection, this would be a lot more interesting after some 32% cosmic chronic for sure. But now that I’m not smoking much I never have it around so not smoking much has added up to not smoking at all, which i suppose is good but every once in a while I’d really like a good scalp tingling blast to the brain to make this all just a bit more tubular…

    @All – Fuck, the old man thing has been crushing my soul. Damn. Kept fighting it but i wasn’t winning. I don’t want sympathy but crikey, do I have a lot my ego and other shit invested in that old man garbage. i’m kind of reeling right now as it unfolds.

    Totally corny reference but it fits for me right now. I’ve grown accustomed to being defeated but pretending it isn’t so. Fuck. So busted. And by a bunch of punk ass PUAs. Jesus. This world is such a mindfuck. The only thing I will say is true about being older is that I have a lot more practice bullshitting myself. I’m more like Morgan Freeman but I haven’t fully rejected hanging myself yet…
    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GwJbrMghQ&w=560&h=315%5D

    1. While I’m only 47 I’ve never understood the ‘old man in the club’ angst a lot of guys deal with. I expect it’s due to my line of work, but I’ve never tried to sell my ‘club’ persona as anything but mature and classy.

      I’ve also found such a facility with Amused Mastery as I’ve gotten older I honestly have to be careful with how invested younger women get with me while I’m working with them.

  27. ” . . . no amount of cheap used car salesmanship will over come weak insecure flabby sheepishness.”

    Dude, it literally does.

  28. @Rollo – That Scandal clip is some wax on/wax off genius shit. How do I find hope again once I’ve given up? Answer: Fool myself, like I always have done. Duality is perhaps the hardest thing for Irish Catholic boys like me to live with. Idealism was beaten into me from birth. Fuck. I’d rather be idealistic and cynically resigned than practical and powerful.

  29. @NBTM

    Either you are a healthy fit attractive male or you are not and no amount of cheap used car salesmanship will over come weak insecure flabby sheepishness.

    Quit projecting. Quit pretending women are men. Quit pretending men and women judge the opposite sex off the exact same characteristics with the exact same weights.

    Jesus H. The PUAs aren’t saying DON’T hit the gym, they’re saying it’s got less impact than working out and they’re right. I don’t think I’m all that strong, but my friends, family, and even guys in my martial arts class assess me as a beast. Do I get that much attention? Not really. Not until I fucking sell it.

    The PUAs are right, you are wrong. Period. Dot. End of fucking story.

  30. @ Rollo Tomassi

    Great clip from Scandal. I sometimes get asked why I’ve consistently weight lifted for over a decade. That’s why. Some think lifting is monotonous and boring, but I’m never disappointed.

  31. @sun

    ” The PUAs aren’t saying DON’T hit the gym, they’re saying it’s got less impact than working out and they’re right.”

    what’s funny is that they ARE NOT mutually exclusive. i ought to know….after work i hit up the gym/exercise and then go out. working out is awesome before going out..provided you work out like a beast and get those endorphins into your system.

    and like you just said…to get the full ROI on having a good body, you still need good game to really sell it and put it out there.

    “and no amount of cheap used car salesmanship will over come weak insecure flabby sheepishness.”

    you sure….?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4z_xTEWbLU

    lots of girls think that dude (james spader) is sexy. he’s flabby and (gasp!) old!

  32. It’s funny watching the guys bounce off kfg. I remember when I was just a lurker back when I’d run across his comments and just be like ‘wtf that was weird, oh well next comment’ for a month or two. Then I started to get it a bit more and now it’s no secret that I think they’re fantastic.

    It might be helpful to think of it like this – most of what he tries to convey are deep mindsets and perspectives rather than comprehensive explanations of didactic topics. And he understands that you can’t transfer mindset by just saying what that mindset is any more than you can teach a person to play the violin through a book. It takes doing. And so he draws the dots and gets you to connect them yourself so that the mindset starts to become a part of your own thoughts.

    A koan does something similar. But what he’s teaching ain’t Buddhism.

    It’s all pretty at odds with the PU advice and FR’s and so on, so it’s not surprising there’s a clash there. PUA is all about being very specific, clear, and complete. And to be fair, kfg gives direct advice from time to time and I have yet to disagree with it so it’s not like he’s incapable.

    Also, there’s a lot of subtle humor in his comments so it’s a self-amusement thing too lol.

  33. Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.

    I hear the DNR is considering adopting ‘yes means yes’ policies tho. These might be my glory days.

  34. @Rollo – “NBTM, again with your literalist autism. There are about 300+ comments in this thread alone disproving your tired assertions that desire, genuine desire, can be stimulated in women.
    You need to go back and review The Desire Dynamic post again. While it’s true that desire cannot be negotiated, you can do many things to provoke genuine desire.”

    Ha ha. So…. Desire cannot be “negotiated” but it can be “provoked”.

    Negotiated, provoked, stimulated, manipulated, manufactured, socially engineered…..

    Changing the word from one to another of the same basic premise does not change that basic premise. Semantic substitutions do not change the basic truth or prove anything. In fact your urge to substitute words in the same context only supports my basic argument because it indirectly reveals you can think of no other counter argument. Therefore you must agree.

    We are sexually attracted to women because of the physical way they ARE and how they behave, but mostly the way they ARE. Women are attracted to us because the way we ARE and the way we behave.

    My point is that we cannot engineer, manipulate, provoke, negotiate, (substitute whatever word you want) genuine desire. Women are attracted to us because of what we ARE not because we are able to twiddle with their minds and make them horny. That idea is tempting to believe and it sells a lot of books, CDs, seminars, and training camps but it does not really work. If a man is so concerned, he projects insecurity, lack of experience and lack of confidence which is unattractive. If a man is undesirable to women the only thing that will change his situation is self transformation, not some cooked up way to perform mind manipulation. Any PUA coach worth a damn will focuse primarily on changes the man must make and his personal development rather than bullshit artistry. A man’s state of being, his physical and intellectual constitution is the foundation of attraction, not a list of theatrics sold by a PUA scammer. His physical and intellectual composition determines his “performance”. Sure, thaetrical role playing and costumes may provide some limited success but it will be half ass and meager compared to basic genetics and development.

    Consider this guy…

    http://rogersmovienation.com/2013/01/09/exclusive-joe-manganiello-on-magic-mike-how-i-met-your-mother-and-baring-it-all/

    Women are not attracted to him because he “provoked” them or “stimulated” them. They desire HIM because the way he IS. This cannot be faked and there is no substitute. Multitudes of women who lust for him have never even met him. They do not desire him because he read a PUA list of dos and don’ts or because he has “connected some dots” and pontificated new meanings for “alpha”, “beta” and “hypergamy”.

    1. @NBTM, do you believe women have psychological/sociological ‘filters’ through which they determine/vet men’s attractiveness in both a long term provisioning sense and a short term sexual sense?

      If so, do you believe men might find ways to bypass or trick those filters?

  35. @Forge the sky:Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.
    .
    Now that was funny. Well done.

  36. @Rollo – Honestly? I think what happened is largely due to getting ill, having my career go sideways and then the shit with my daughter. I’m not proud to admit it, but I just got run over and couldn’t seem to get up again.

    In a way, the most undermining at a visceral level was becoming ill. I remember being in the hospital, in the ER, regaining consciousness with that scene I’d only ever seen in movies happening to me. Surrounded by medical staff, needles going in, machines beeping, serious, concerned intense activity. All due to my CPTSD. I’d begun passing out and developing uncontrollable vertigo due to my rock climbing fall in which I could have died. It triggered a bout of PTSD which I had pushed back, but had suffered from since I was 7. I won’t go into all the details, but suffice it to say I was a mess from abuse by that age.

    MY bp went to 60/20. I felt like I was finally beaten. I was 43 and felt like no matter how much work I’d done, no matter how hard I tried, I could never escape the sins of my father. That i was truly broken and would never be okay. It may sound like I’m being self-indulgent, all I can say is to men who haven’t had this happen to them is that you can’t understand. I’d had to fight so hard to overcome all the shit of my youth and did it. 15 years of therapy. Giving up booze and drugs. Self help, meditation – and oh yeah, I was in the best shape of my life. Regularly ran 7 miles, back country skied, climbed – ice and rock. Was told I had the cardio system of a young pony after all the tests. No matter how fit, how much work I’d done, I’d had a seed planted in me, a self-destruct sequence in my neurology which was triggered by the life-threatening rock climbing fall. The fall happened in 2003, I was hospitalized in 2005. I completely came apart. Lost one job because I snapped at someone in a client meeting – something I had never done. I suffered insomnia of epic proportions and was on 5 different drugs for all that shit at one point by 2007. I developed crippling anxiety, even had weird lucid dreams and mild hallucinations. All from CPTSD.

    I reached my breaking point. And here’s the best part. Nobody really gave a shit. Sure my bro did his best to be there, as did a few other people but in the end? A man suffers this kind of loss alone. I’d rallied back so many times but this time? It was like I was turning a key on an engine that would not start.

    Then my daughter turned on me. Then the one good job I finally managed to get in 2012 disappeared due to corporate failure – while I had been promoted and was doing well, it was just written off one day. After being one of the most heralded “B rounds” in tech fundraising history.

    It was time to check out. Broke. Broken. Alone. Hopeless. Bereft. 50. Fucked from birth. And tired of trying. Tired of starting over again. Tired of picking myself up off the ground after yet another failure. I used to eat failures for breakfast, fuck them up the ass again over lunch and then kick their asses after work in the gym. But not this time. Like I said, I turned the key, but nothing happened.

    Yet I did find a way off the mat anyway with the Red Pill. I’m battling back once again. But I’d never given up before and I tell you this, giving up is pernicious. Insidious. Corrupting. The ego can’t face it, so you lie to yourself. You blame others. You retreat into fantasy. Anything but face your own culpability. The path back has been jagged and ridiculously volatile. Still I try. I push. I scrape away the bullshit. And here I am. Naked and afraid but honest and willing to face it all.

    I used to think I was bullet proof but I wasn’t. Nobody is. Every man has his breaking point. I found mine. I hope you and everyone else here never finds your’s. But still, no matter what, the path forward remains the same. Start again. Breathe. Try to enjoy the ride and surely, the Red Pill has given me a new lease on life. Be thankful for all you have cuz it could all be robbed from you by a twist of fate. Your body and mind can turn on you and when it does you can’t do a motherfucking thing about it. I know, it happened to me.

  37. NBTM: “Desire cannot be “negotiated” but it can be “provoked”.”

    There’s a mugger with an Uzi over here who would like word with you, or you can just give him all your money as a gift and prevent him from becoming a criminal.

  38. YaReally HABD Sentient Scribblerg Forge Sun Wukong and all the other guys

    Victory lap FR from my latest Tinder date – more a list of things I noticed and did well than questions really.

    Didn’t quite get the ASD dealt with enough to get her home but got a hand job in the parking lot so I’m calling that a win (not just because of the “happy ending” but because I just totally nailed the Game tonight and she was all over me). Like we talk about “genuine desire” – this was it and it is just insanely addictive to feel that from a woman for you even if it wasn’t a technical lay (although that is pretty much guaranteed next time).

    HB6.5, 38, from Tinder, strong online IOIs to me. Divorced years ago and recently started dating again (allegedly no sex for years). Wants “a relationship” but was fine with it when I made it explicitly clear I didn’t do relationships.

    I walked into the coffee shop where we met (I was a bit late) and she literally looked at me and went “wow” and then within seconds went all smiley and a bit giggly. And then I relaxed and knew I had this one in the bag if I didn’t actively screw it up

    And guys, I’m no Chad – average to slightly above average. 6.5 – maybe a 7 max. An hour or so later when we were making out she was running her hands all over my chest and asking me if I worked out. Erm, WTF? I’m not overweight but have like zero muscle tone and I only started working out consistently a few weeks ago (Sentient – I’ve finally figured out a consistent routine that works for me even when travelling but the weights are lighter than weights chicks use for the moment..just need to stick to it).

    IOIs straight off the bat – not just dilated eyes, but solid compliance..a bit of giggling and smiling at me. Like I have enough trust in my instincts now (at least when it was this obvious) that I just KNEW it was on. My only concern was logistics and ASD.

    Yeah, like I ran my usual game and stories with emotional spikes on her, and I did laser her a bit but like it literally didn’t matter. It was just ON (While I was telling one of my usual stories and she was looking at me all DDB – but not actually that engaged in the story – just LOOKING at me – I just thought of Scray’s advice to scribblerg on this thread about not overgaming and thought “I don’t really need to pump attraction MORE here do I?” And I just shut up and went harder at the make out and grabbing her tits in the bar mixed with some sexual comments (zero resistance – at one point I had my hands under her top on her tits in the bar).

    Like easy highly sexual make out in under an hour and ten mins after that she was grabbing my cock in the bar by herself. The whole nine yards..long before that there was the licking lips business etc.

    And there was also that slightly nervous laughing/giggling thing which I’ve seen 2-3 times now, recently (maybe I saw it in previous lays and didn’t register it) – I am pretty sure this is the laugh coming from the cognitive dissonance of the powerful desire and the unexpectedness of it

    I tried the pull to my apartment (3 min walk) but she flat out refused even though she was obviously super turned on..I pushed hard but it was a real no. Then I switched plans and made a venue change, did some additional making out and groping in a dark alleyway en route, pumped her state more in the new venue (secretly had hands under her top etc) and a lot more sexual talk mixed with some comfort (at one point she was saying something like “I barely know anything about you..how many siblings do you have?” (LOL – I let her babble on about non-sexual stuff for a few minutes). Then I took her back to the parking lot via the alleyway.

    And I thought okay I can end this here and get my near guaranteed lay next time..but then I thought of you guys here and particularly of Sentient and HABD telling me I don’t push things hard enough and I thought fuck it and literally got my cock out when I had my back to the car and her pressed up against me and she jumped on it pretty much immediately and gave me a HJ – some people walked past and I just literally acted like it didn’t matter (they were the other side of the car) and kept whispering in her ear “they can only see us kissing, don’t worry” and she was totally cool. It was a bit too public for a BJ or that would have been totally on as well.

    Total time from setting eyes on each other to “happy ending” – 2 hours. And frankly she was turned on enough in about an hour – the rest was just handling the ASD and giving her some comfort and adding in one more venue change while maintaining the sexual tension.

    Some interesting points:

    -So why the “wow” when she saw me? She’d seen a recent pic on Tinder and I look the same. In fact I was dressed much worse in person than in my Tinder pic (I was in random shirt, old jeans and gym sneakers). Could just the subcomms – in the 3 seconds (literally) since I walked into the coffee shop make such a big difference?

    -Also, she kept talking about how she loves my skin and it’s so smooth and how I have a baby face and she kept stroking it..according to her if dye the gray out of my hair, I’d easily look mid-20s instead of 36. Maybe I SHOULD try it just for fun.

    -At least twice she asked something like “So you meet a lot of girls on Tinder and sleep with them?” Of course you guys know I don’t, and I was mostly reliant on sugar daddy sites for quite a while, but: locked eyes and lasered her and went “Yes”. Then I let that sink in and explained there’s more to it and I did the random sleeping around with people who I regretted waking up next to in my 20s (yeah right, lol, I wish) but now while I enjoy sex I won’t sleep with anyone..there needs to be a connection and I need to enjoy spending time with them even though I don’t want a relationship (so adding a bit of qualifying her in there). Also she asked me if I’d had a threesome (I haven’t) but straight up “Yes” again.

    -She kept saying stuff (a lot) like “You’re making me so hot, I need to cool off” and “There’s this sexual tension between us” (Erm..no shit..I worked hard at that lol!). Also something about “You want sex..” And I used that fantastic line someone said here while lasering (I think it was walawala?): “I’m a man and you’re a woman..of course I want sex..but not just sex”

    -Even more interestingly, she said in person (and repeated again when she sent me a text after she got home) that she had thought I looked like a nice friendly guy she could meet for a drink and be friends with (apparently if she’s to be believed, that’s what she mostly does with the guys she meets on Tinder and they take her on activities and stuff – like 4 years since she divorced and she doesn’t seem to have met a guy who hit her attraction circuits hard).

    -Anyway, she says she was really surprised just how sexual I was..something like “You know you look like such a nice, shy guy and you come across like that, but you are really very forceful and sexual..you just go for what you want” (and her eyes were absolutely shining and she was giggling a bit as she said it). WHAT is it about my Tinder pics etc that’s giving this “Shy, timid guy” vibe??

    -Abundance – It’s only a HJ, but even that has completely reset my mood you know? I’m supposed to be meeting the cute 29 year old (from last week) tomorrow and she’s been playing games about confirming the time I told her. Now I have enough abundance that if she doesn’t confirm by tonight for tomorrow I’m going to blow her off saying I made other plans if she texts in the morning tomorrow (she did the same thing last week but not only do I have more abundance now, I expect higher standards from a girl I’ve met than from a girl who I’ve only spoken to online). It may mean I don’t bang her (because I’m travelling from next week and won’t be able to meet for a while) but whatever.

    -Takeaways – Another thing. Something Sentient hammered into me after I had a daytime insta date with a cute 23 year old a few months ago (the girl was totally into me and solid attraction but I couldn’t pull off the kiss) about how I did zero takeaways. So I made it a point to do that several times with this woman (I also did it a couple of times with the cute redhead last week but not this much). Just silly stuff after a minute or two of making out hard and getting her turned on – literally I shoved her away and moved all the way to the edge of the couch and put our coats between us saying “No, no, this is too much..we need to be chaperoned..you turn me on too much – you stay there and cool off” and she’d just beam at me and giggle. Then I’d just pull her into me HARD, grab the back of her neck and kiss her passionately 30 seconds later..

    -Speaking of which btw, I’m getting a “sense” of how much physical force I can use. It’s a LOT more than most people think. I mean for stuff like grabbing the girl and moving her around and pulling her to you even when she’s resisting and stuff like that. It’s the first time I’ve had this (literally the last few dates this week) but I’m being much more physically forceful and it’s WORKING. But I’m very much on the starting point here with learning how to calibrate..but it’s almost like you may as well USE the force and then let go if you “sense” the resistance is serious..why wouldn’t you do that?

  39. The group negotiated a peace treaty
    The group provoked a peace treaty
    The group stimulated a peace treaty
    The group manipulated a peace treaty
    The group manufactured a peace treaty
    The group socially engineered a peace treaty

    It’s all the same for NBTM, just word substitution

  40. lol at the fr’s on here with 35+ divorced 6’s, its like using a treble hook to snag fish in a small river, no game required.

  41. Culum,

    Congrats. I think you’re right, you made a few moves there but she was an easy fish. The one I’m with now, easy fish too. 101 level, but 101 level is more than a lot of guys know. Just don’t screw up the easy stuff.

    “Game” is presented here as this mystical thing sometimes, but I see the work behind it. How much time is YaReally putting in? Tons. Watching hundreds of videos, going out constantly. He can be creative with his right brain because he’s swamped his left brain with so much information that very little is new to him when he sees it “infield.” Plus he sees a lot of youngsters making rookie mistakes and he gets confidence from being out so much and knowing not to do that.

    Now a lot of people go out. I used to go out. Never had any awareness or idea of what I was doing. Doesn’t work for a guy. So some of the stuff about hyping yourself up, situational awareness, does work. I really like to stay in 101 world instead of mystical game crap. There are real things guys can do to improve, but mostly they stumble around not having a clue because they don’t know.

    Now you do have to have some real life wins. I was married and did learn a fair amount being with the ex. Minimal experience before her. So it’s a lot easier for me now. Of course, now I know what I had and lost, and I’m a little more motivated to have a good life that before I knew what I was missing.

    It’s like some standup comic shutting down a heckler. It seems spontaneous, but he’s a pro and the heckler’s an amateur. The stand up probably didn’t start out that funny. He wanted to be funny, spent a few years being lame, started to come up with some legitimately funny takes, and went on from there. Or a musician jamming who can jam because he’s worked to get the experience with the instrument. It seems spontaneous, but it’s built on experience and repetition.

    YaReally does a lot of situational awareness stuff where he’s deliberately avoiding doing certain things in the field he isn’t good at, doesn’t like to do. That’s his niche in the field. Every successful man needs to do this. Almost no man is good at everything so you need to capitalize when you can score.

    The game is a dance. I don’t focus so much on dominance because I don’t think I can pull it off. I do when I can, “in bed I’m a man” lol, but I’m better off playing the distant game. Score your points where you can.

    I am not big either on trying to alter her frame. Just be aware of her fram. Based on experience with the ex. She was going to divorce me or whatever chump married her, it did not matter. It was that scripted for her. Would not bother trying to fix that shit. Just move on and find something you can handle.

  42. @Forge

    Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.

    That spittake almost cost me a monitor, you son of a bitch. Well played.

  43. Bromeo

    January 28th, 2016 at 7:04 pm
    lol at the fr’s on here with 35+ divorced 6’s, its like using a treble hook to snag fish in a small river, no game required.

    ? Try hard…? several posts here on this very thread confirmed the problem exactly with this demo is that they are post carousel and firm in their born again virgin beliefs…

    Don’t be such an obvious tool…

    I wish Greg Eliot was here to give a duckface… 🙁

  44. @Razorwire,

    “Those 38y/o birds are walking dead 9/10 times. “I used to be a slut.” But now no kisses. Right. She is on tinder to find a husband. LOL. The thing with lane changers is that they have tasted the sweet treats for far too long. As a result they have acquired type II diabetes form the CC candy.
    Now, they want you to stick around for all the ass injections of anti-attraction and nutritional seminars down at the non-judgmental rock band church with a gourmet coffee bar…”

    EPIC!!!

    Easily the best comment I have read in this place save for one or two others from earlier posts.

  45. There is a mix of Documentary and Reality TV in Netflix’s “Chelsea Does Marriage”

    From a red pill lens angle, these late 30s/early 40s never been married are undateable, unfuckable, unlikeable and way way past their best before date

    Best is her interview with her first serious boyfriend, who nicely avoided living in hell

  46. Red Pill men should not use ‘lol’, which is bitch talk and “totes gay”, as the kidz would say! @YaReally, you blog great posts but lose the lol’s mate, for sure…

  47. Red Pill men can use lol and be manly.

    I know what you are getting at and there was a good post a while ago at TRP about this kind of thing in text game, but it is congruent with YaReally’s style.

  48. @scribblerg

    “Another point of connection, this would be a lot more interesting after some 32% cosmic chronic for sure.”

    Another point of connection? Did you find me IRL? I don’t know anything about percentages, but I do love weed. The downside is now that I have a family when I’m stoned I feel like someone could knock down the door of my house and I would just be completely useless. The upside is that a lot of times I’ll have a bunch of puzzle pieces in my head, and the weed will help fit everything together and make connections, etc… Also, I really doubt I would have been able to quit smoking cigarettes without it.

  49. @Sentient

    Say’s the guy who’s advice to handling a nagging wife is “Take her by the hand to the bedroom and go for it. See what happens…” , LOL dead.

    You even unplugged yet bruh.

  50. Rollo

    I have a question for you that is off topic, but I can’t find an email address to reach you. I just wanted your opinion on a theory I’ve been formulating.

    We know that beta males are the building blocks of civilization. They have largely constructed our monuments, written our laws, and imbued civilization with their character. My question is this: Did betas construct civilization to increase their sexual access to women? Did the beta male reason that since Alphas succeed in harsh and unforgiving environments (using strength), if said environment gave way to one of security and comfort (civilization), women would find beta traits (loyalty, modesty ect) more attractive?

    Did betas create civilization with the intent of fashioning an environment in which they would have a sexual competitive advantage over alphas?

  51. “My question is this: Did betas construct civilization to increase their sexual access to women?”

    Through food production, although they didn’t think of it in those terms until the project was under way. They just thought of themselves as having mouths to feed.

    “Did the beta male reason that since Alphas succeed in harsh and unforgiving environments (using strength), if said environment gave way to one of security and comfort (civilization), women would find beta traits (loyalty, modesty ect) more attractive?”

    They discovered that it tended to work out that way and did what they could to advance it.

    “Did betas create civilization with the intent of fashioning an environment in which they would have a sexual competitive advantage over alphas?”

    They never had, and never will have, a competitive advantage over alphas, but they did level the field considerably. They have the advantage of numbers, and numbers are vital to civilization.

  52. @Dutchman, using an analogy to relate to how I see you relating to your wife’s shit tests and your efforts with frame:

    Ever notice a dog self amusing on the floor? Rubbing his back on the carpet with a big smile on his face with tongue handing out, then licking his balls as if nobody matters to him? That’s the ZFG attitude you need to have when you test out game stuff with your wife. I get the feeling that when you do this or that technique, you are not like this dog, but the dog that just did a trick and is now sitting at his owners feet wondering if he’s gonna get a treat (did my technique work?) or not.

    Whenever your wife complains, be that dog scratching his back on the carpet with his tongue out. Self amuse. Continue doing your hobbies and working on you.

    One of my wife’s shit tests is actually asking me what I think about this or that decision she is contemplating. I’ve learned that these are shit tests. They are opportunities for her to disregard my opinion and do the opposite. So, now when she does this, like she did yesterday, I responded, “I’m sure you’ll figure it out,” and went about my own activities.

    And I think another commenter mentioned this, but, dude, have fun when you are doing this too. Who cares if your marriage doesn’t work out. Take a break from caring, man! ZFG and have fun!

  53. @newly

    ” That’s the ZFG attitude you need to have when you test out game stuff with your wife. I get the feeling that when you do this or that technique, you are not like this dog, but the dog that just did a trick and is now sitting at his owners feet wondering if he’s gonna get a treat (did my technique work?) or not.”

    Yeah, you nailed it. I am definitely too invested in the outcome.

    “One of my wife’s shit tests is actually asking me what I think about this or that decision she is contemplating. I’ve learned that these are shit tests. They are opportunities for her to disregard my opinion and do the opposite. So, now when she does this, like she did yesterday, I responded, “I’m sure you’ll figure it out,” and went about my own activities.”

    One thing I always run into with this is that she ALWAYS calls me out on it when I do that. Like if she tries to engage me in a conversation where she wants to know what I think about something I don’t care about, and I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous and I wish that you were more invested in (X).” I guess I need to just do the back turn thing more but she calls me out on that later too, and I usually fall back into her frame.

  54. Addendum:

    Bear in mind that the simple alpha/beta model is one that may aid understanding of pickup, but it fails at the civilization level.

    You need at least three strata, the rulers, the lieutenants and the workers.

  55. @Dutch: “One thing I always run into with this is that she ALWAYS calls me out on it when I do that. Like if she tries to engage me in a conversation where she wants to know what I think about something I don’t care about, and I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous and I wish that you were more invested in (X).” I guess I need to just do the back turn thing more but she calls me out on that later too, and I usually fall back into her frame.”

    She’ll amp up her resistance until the very end when she cracks and accepts your frame (or leaves).

    I wouldn’t say, “it doesn’t matter to me,” though. Perhaps, “I’m sure you’ll make the right decision.” If you don’t care about it anyhow, why bother giving her ammo to think you don’t care about HER.

    Personally, when my wife tries this shit, I do the following:

    Wife: “You’re being X. You didn’t do Y. Let’s talk about Z.”
    You: ((raise my hand as if I had a remote in it and push a button and say) “Mute!” (then walk away with a smirk).

  56. “Like if she tries to engage me in a conversation where she wants to know what I think about something I don’t care about, and I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple.”

    IMO, this means she wants you to make a decision. My wife can’t make a single decision about anything. lol. I quite literally think I make like 99% of all decisions that affect her life. Obviously I don’t really care what kind of birthday present to get kid X that I’ve never meet before, but I make the decision anyway. What should we have for dinner next week? I could care less, but I just rattle shit off. That’s what a man is there for.

  57. @dutchman

    ” “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous and I wish that you were more invested in (X).” I guess I need to just do the back turn thing more but she calls me out on that later too, and I usually fall back into her frame.”

    See… this is why she does it. As HABD would say she is going through her rolodex of moves and low and behold look what happens here, she does it and you go back into her frame. So you are training her to keep doing it. Thus it will never end.

    Start training her to stop doing it by showing her it no longer works. This is why guys on MMSL fail so long, they never ever push it to the limit. Newly is giving you great advice – ZFG!

    So not only don’t enter her frame, create an entirely new frame – non sequitur game for the win!

    Her: “I feel like you’re being disingenuous and I wish that you were more invested in (X)”

    You:If wishes were fishes… I’d swim a mile… hey let’s go to the beach this weekend. (and moves on)

    Her (later): I don’t feel we have closure on X.

    You: Topic closed (reads book)…

    Her (pissy): hmmmmph (rolls over fluffing blanket passive aggressively)

    You:I’m thirsty… Going to head out and grab a beer. Catch you later (slap ass). sleep well. (leaves house)

  58. @Andy

    “IMO, this means she wants you to make a decision. My wife can’t make a single decision about anything. lol. I quite literally think I make like 99% of all decisions that affect her life. ”

    You’re quite right, her hindbrain wants him to make a decision but she is not convinced of his alphaness, hence his leadership is in question, hence the constant second guessing. And when he caves within her frame it reinforces her doubt. This is the root of the persistent frame battle.

    He needs to get her into his frame 100%.

  59. “One of my wife’s shit tests is actually asking me what I think about this or that decision she is contemplating.”

    That is a universal, primal shit test.

    ” I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous . . .”

    It matters to her, and in her solipsism she cannot imagine that it doesn’t matter to you. To her it reads as you being incapable of making a decision about the matter, which is part of the shit test.

    But a large part of the shit test is how she has gone about constructing the decision. It is likely a lose/lose for you, and for which she will hold you responsible.

    But there is the thing, being the decision maker is about being responsible for it. If you want to be the decision maker, you have to commit to that responsibility.

    So, make the decision, but don’t feel bound to how she has framed it. If she asks you, “Should I wear the blue dress or the red dress?” feel free to walk to the closet and hand her the green dress, “This one.”

    Don’t tell her the green one, hand her the green one. Wherever possible, be the doer.

    Then take the responsibility, whether what you have decided turns out to be right or wrong. Even you fall into the lose/lose, stand behind it. If it was a wrong decision you pass the shit test not by apologizing for it, but by making a new decision and taking a new action.

    No retreat. No surrender. Advance! Advance! Advance!

  60. @Sentient: Yes! Non sequitur game for the win.
    Examples:

    1.
    Daughter: “Daddy why can’t I have my dessert now?
    Me: You’re so funny!

    2.
    Son: “I don’t want to read my book tonight.”
    Me (looking in the book): “This character’s name is actually Stinky Kitty? That’s so funny.”
    Son (lays next to me with a smile): “Yeah, he’s the funniest one (and we start reading).

  61. @Sentient

    Women hate making decisions… Why would making a decision about your family be falling into her frame? To me it seems like a great opportunity to start leading the family and getting “hand.” Once she realizes she can trust in you to start making decisions she’ll come to you for more and more decisions. That’s part of your burden of performance if you ask me. As a man you should be making all of the important of the decisions regarding the family anyway. Like @Dutchman, do you manage all the finances? You should. My wife doesn’t even know how much money is in the f’n checking account. I don’t think she even knows how much money I make… lol.

    Now if she is always asking for your opinion, then after you tell her she goes and does the opposite or if she’s disrespectful of your opinion…. That’s when I would say she’s testing your frame.

  62. “Then take the responsibility, whether what you have decided turns out to be right or wrong. Even you fall into the lose/lose, stand behind it. If it was a wrong decision you pass the shit test not by apologizing for it, but by making a new decision and taking a new action.”

    This. Okay, we’re all on the same page.

  63. “Daughter: “Daddy why can’t I have my dessert now?
    Me: You’re so funny!”

    And if you’re doing it right it won’t require any thought, because it will amuse you.

    “Me (looking in the book): “This character’s name is actually Stinky Kitty? That’s so funny.””

    No retreat. No surrender.

    “Son (lays next to me with a smile): “Yeah, he’s the funniest one (and we start reading).”

    Advance!

  64. +1 on Sentients last two comments.

    Two examples:

    First: couple are planning a vacation trip. She wants to plan every thing out as much as possible. He delegates to some degree, but she keeps coming back with alternatives – not better, just different. “What if we stayed here instead of there? What if we went this route?”. The wrong way to handl this – enter into endless negotiations. Because sooner or later he’ll decide they’ve agreed, they have a deal, and then when she comes back for yet another round of “What if?” it will seem to him like a deliberate deal breaker (not to mention fingernails down a chalkboard). The trip may or may not work out, but both of them may feel a bit cheated in the process. She fusses because he seemed “disengaged”, he’s pissed because she had to have her way, he gave in, then she had to upend everything and have her way again and WTF, anyway?

    Second: Man decides he and his wife needs a 48 hour getaway. Picks a destination, checks weather (if applicable), packs overnight bag. Tells wife with a smirk “Pack for three days. Don’t forget the fun stuff”. Puts her in the car and starts driving without bothering to tell her where they are going. When asked “Are we going to City Z” he just smirks and changes the tunes while driving a different direction. At the destination he drives to a hotel and says “We’re staying here tonight” with finality. Takes a different route back in order to stop at another place. She has a good time, he has a good time.

    Be in charge of logistics. This is obvious for PUA as YaReally, Scray and others make clear, but it’s also important for LTR / married Game. Because then fun things “Just Happen” to her, she goes along for the ride happily in a relaxed frame of mind rather than in a second-guessing “Is he going to screw this up? frame. Why? Because she’s fully in his frame not the other way around. Now she’ll come up with more ideas, within his frame for things to do / places to go, but it won’t be that endless “are you sure? Are you sure?” guff seen in First case.

    Some women like to do a bit of logistics, perhaps it makes them feel like “one of the guys” but as with all such things it should be a limited role, delegated to them for a specific purpose, and subject to overruling with no dissention.

  65. @andy

    well read what I wrote again… and read what Dutchy wrote… she IS testing his frame by questioning his decisions after she asks for it… You are in a different place.

    Yes women hate making decisions but they hate following a beta more. she won’t abide by his decisions until he proves himself worthy…

    ONCE he reaches that level – via pulling her into his frame – she can then be submissive and follow his decisions…

    Don’t treat symptoms… administer the cure.

  66. @scribblerg

    “Fuck, the old man thing has been crushing my soul.”

    it’s not the ‘old’ thing that’s the issue (i had to work through this, too…) – actual age has nothing to do with this…that’s just the idea that the FI is using to push on you…and yes, it IS pushing directly on your soul…that’s why it’s SO effective…this is REALLY bc you have no ‘providee’ giving you permission to feel good about yourself (which would let you continue to be a part of that matrix)…

    this is STILL just straight up FI beta provider enforcement in play (you can just about pick ANY post here to get more info on this…bc it’s THAT pervasive…), but the important thing to realize is that that mech works by SHAMING…

    SO, every time you have a good thought/feeling about yourself (without the express or implied permission of your female ‘providee’ (so, she can maintain control), the WHOLE purpose of that subroutine is to slap you down with shame…so that she (through the system) can maintain control…

    so, what happens if YOU don’t have a providee (or are not working to support some SIW/single mom = you are poolside…)?

    the default in the system is set up to shame ALL men who are not given express/implied permission to feel good about themselves. (note – as more men get red pill and stop being affected by that shame, the FI panics and will try to maintain that control through passing laws to switch from social enforcement (shame = fear of social ostracization) to legal enforcement (laws = fear of jail) – Rollo’s covered this idea in ‘yes means fear’)

    “And by a bunch of punk ass PUAs.”

    this idea is STILL supporting the FI…(figure out why for 10 internets!!!)…and it’s you stepping on your own leash…

    i just want to point out…

    the FI is just a force of nature…it’s the sum total of female nature being expressed in the world…how you react to it depends on where you are in ‘recovery’…here’s an example:

    snowstorm (a different force of nature) dumps a foot of snow on your area…

    BP beta provider (with providee): ‘it’s ok, honey, i’ll just get the shovel and work my ass off to clean the driveway’ (feeling great about himself bc his ‘providee’ gives him permission by being so ‘appreciative’ of his efforts…and with the (secret) hope that his hard work will get him a handjob later…)

    BP beta provider (without providee): ‘if i work hard enough at cleaning off the driveway, i’ll be sure to get someone to provide for…who will finally appreciate me…’ (feeling great about himself bc the ‘system’ gives him permission…)

    RP beta provider (with providee): ‘damn! well, i guess shoveling the driveway is just part of my burden of performance… and i’ll have to put off working on my hobby today…where’s my shovel…’ (feeling good about doing work that needs to get accomplished regardless of whether or not the FI deems it a benefit…)

    RP beta provider (without providee = MGTOW): ‘f’k that shit! i’m only going to shovel a path that only (((I))) can walk through…’ (feeling bitter and resentful bc he doesn’t have permission from anybody but other MGTOWs to feel good, but is still trapped in the FI reward system…even though he can see the matrix…)

    punk’ass PUA: ‘WOOO HOOO!…where are my skis!…’ (feeling great about himself regardless of the FI ACTIVELY trying to SHAME him…)

    “Kept fighting it but i wasn’t winning. ”

    you CAN’T ‘win’ by fighting it…you can only learn to surf…

    @Forge

    “Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.”

    lol…but i thought that only worked on ‘birds’…lol…nice to know it works in other situs…BUT was this day game or night? were they singles or schools?…come on, dude, more details on that FR…bc if it works in-field, i want to try it out!…lol

    @Culum

    props on that FR…

    “And guys, I’m no Chad – average to slightly above average. 6.5 – maybe a 7 max. ”

    aaand you’re basing this on?…

    “An hour or so later when we were making out she was running her hands all over my chest and asking me if I worked out. Erm, WTF?”

    behold the mighty hamster!…lol…since she was dtf at this point her hindbrain was kicking her hamster pretty hard…lol…great job!

    ” I am pretty sure this is the laugh coming from the cognitive dissonance of the powerful desire and the unexpectedness of it”

    if scott adams is right, this is also ‘being persuaded’ in play…

    “I tried the pull to my apartment (3 min walk) but she flat out refused even though she was obviously super turned on..”

    did you ramp down to ‘chill’ the ASD before you tried to pull? (and then use a pretext?) or was it full on makeout right up to pull?…remember to make it ‘just happen’…especially with milfy type girls who are trying the born again virgin thing…

    “Could just the subcomms – in the 3 seconds (literally) since I walked into the coffee shop make such a big difference?”

    yes, by a factor of ten…lol…girls can just GLANCE at you and just ‘know’…lol…usually what happens is that guys screw it up (with shitty ‘lame’…pun intended…lol).

    “but now while I enjoy sex I won’t sleep with anyone..there needs to be a connection and I need to enjoy spending time with them even though I don’t want a relationship (so adding a bit of qualifying her in there).”

    and this is where you could have set up the pull to your apt…[you back off on the physical escalation = takeaway]…and focus on something she said…

    you: [stopping the physical escalation] i really liked that. (rewarding her for the emotional ‘chase’ impulse that she just had when you stopped touching her…) you know…i’d love to hear more about that, but i have to pee…let’s go back to my apt so i can do that…then we can talk more about (whatever it was)… [then take her hand and just walk her back to your apt…while NO more physical escalation…]

    “Also she asked me if I’d had a threesome (I haven’t) but straight up “Yes” again.”

    good man!…lol…and what was SHE thinking about when she asked you that?…lol…next time that happens, ask her if she has a hot friend in mind…lol…push those boundaries!…

    @Rollo

    that was a great clip (watched it 6x…lol), but i never knew that william shatner had an acting school…lol

    good luck all!

  67. @dutchman

    Once again, find other girls to practice on. Just interact with a coworker or something like she’s a little sister. You’re fighting to gain frame when BOTH of you are deeply invested in your beta frame. You need practice under your belt to take that on.

    I’ve had girls play the ‘ask for me to decide then do the opposite’ game before. I view it one of two ways depending on my whim. The first way is to be flattered that she wanted to see me make a decision cause she thinks it’s hot, even if she’s already made up her mind. She’s finding an escuse to feel led by you.

    Second, she’s deliberately trying to annoy you. As a shit test. So don’t be annoyed, just don’t give a shit. Just act like you’ve totally forgotten the whole interaction, like she’s not on your mind at all. Her- ‘blue or red dress?’ You- ‘red.’ Her – (shows up in blue dress) You – ‘nice dress, is it new?’

    Alternatively you could go nuclear to show her your boundaries more vividly, but that only works if you take it to the point of compelling her submission to your frame. Not recommended in today’s environment. Except with cluster b chicks maybe.

  68. @Dota
    “We know that beta males are the building blocks of civilization.”

    This theory would work if we accepted that all males who make useful contributions to society are betas and therefore suck with women, and that all alphas are pieces of shit like yareally and keep messy apartments (lol jkjk, but you see my point).

    So, it would help to clear things up if we agreed that when we talk about alpha and beta, we are only talking about skills with women.

    Beta males can be found at all levels of society, same as alphas. Said in a different way, dudes who can go up to a girl they think is cute and say “Hi” can be found running a million dollar companies, or they can be found working at McDonalds (but to be fair they’re also probably looking at a nice promotion to head fry cook soon.) Comparatively, dudes who can’t go up to a pretty girl and just say “Hi” can also be found running million dollar companies, or they can be found working at McDonalds – exception being that they probably aren’t getting that promotion to fry cook and it’s gonna give them low self esteem and they won’t be able to brag about it to any hot girls. See the difference? When it comes down to it, alpha and beta are just skills with women. Some people develop them earlier than others, some take a while to learn lol.

  69. Or to restate my tl;dr another way:

    Women want men to be decisive. A man who can’t make up his mind scares their hindbrain, “What if a bear tries to get in the cave and he can’t stop it?”. Once he’s set his frame is set, retained it, and stands on his decisions… all that second guessing will tend to fade.

    Andy’s wife asking him for his decision on all those issues is a flip side of the same thing – by asking him to be The Decider she’s demonstrating submission, most likely.

  70. “Second, she’s deliberately trying to annoy you. As a shit test. So don’t be annoyed, just don’t give a shit. Just act like you’ve totally forgotten the whole interaction, like she’s not on your mind at all. Her- ‘blue or red dress?’ You- ‘red.’ Her – (shows up in blue dress) You – ‘nice dress, is it new?’”

    Disagree. That’s crossing a boundary. You don’t have to go nuclear, but you should definitely enforce your boundaries regardless of who it is… Normal chick, cluster b, another man, whatever…

  71. @scribblerg

    “@HABD – Roger that, great commentary and thanks for taking the time to do so.”

    you’re welcome…when i get more time and work through some of my more pressing shit, you can help me learn to play poker…

    one thing that helped me work through ‘sticking points’ is the same thing that Culum was using = going out to work on specific things WITH a self-imposed limit of NO pulling/sex (at least on the expectation side of things)…

    i would go out to push a boundary and have a specific rule that even if a girl started playing with my c*k, i STILL wouldn’t pull her…(well, maybe not THAT far…lol, but you take my point). that got my ego off the hook, and i could push WAY harder than if i was worried about ‘offending’ her…lol…and let me notch a ‘win’ by just doing my ‘exercise’ (whatever that was)…

    and i wasn’t kidding about that people watching exercise…

    good luck!

  72. @Culum

    Dude – so proud… you are killing it. This FR was epic – not because you had an eightsome at the Playboy Mansion – but because you are out there, grinding away, taking on advice, implementing it and growing. You should inspire legions of KJ’s to step away from the screen and go and do. +1,000,000 Instead of pulling your pud alone, you got a handy in public from a stranger in under 2 hours for your efforts!

    In a couple of days you absorbed a bunch of new things and then went and executed on them. Badass…

    Some responses to your questions…

    “So why the “wow” when she saw me?”

    ummmm you’re a sexy badass! No more questions! LOL. This whole thing was OVER at that second. Jump on any window like this. Everything that follows is foreplay not pick up. But there is more than that…

    “I’d easily look mid-20s instead of 36. ”

    there is a theme building here Culum… can you guess what it is?

    “At least twice she asked something like “So you meet a lot of girls on Tinder and sleep with them?”

    Yup… there is a theme building here. Guess it yet?

    “Also she asked me if I’d had a threesome (I haven’t) but straight up “Yes” again.”

    OMG the theme is soooo strong. Please tell me now you can guess it!!!! Right answer BTW 😉

    ““There’s this sexual tension between us” (Erm..no shit..I worked hard at that lol!). Also something about “You want sex..” “

    You want sex… well these were actually questions more than statements… Because of the theme building… LOL Guess!

    “Even more interestingly, she said in person (and repeated again when she sent me a text after she got home) that she had thought I looked like a nice friendly guy she could meet for a drink and be friends “

    This here is a sidebar – showing you that contrast is usually great game. I look like a choir boy but act like the devil… instant boost of attraction – whoa hindbrain says, what do we have here…

    ““You know you look like such a nice, shy guy and you come across like that, but you are really very forceful and sexual..you just go for what you want”

    lol… there is the confirmation. Hindbrain likey!!!! But there is more here… c’mon you know it know right? You know it. What is it????

    answer – PROJECTION! Sit back and listen to what they say because 75% of the time from an attracted girl it is straight up projection of what THEY WANT, not who you may be… (sperg caveat – attracted girl…)

    OK so let’s play back her quotes, all together now…

    WOW… you look so young…. you sleep with a lot of girls!!! OMG Threesome!!! All the girls want you!!!! And there’s sexual tension between us!!!! You want ME!!!!! You want sex with ME!!!! You look so nice but you are so badddd!!!! I get both!!! I WIN!!!!!!!

    A sexless 38YO divorcee walks into a bar and meets a real live YOUNGER guy who is also coming across as a sexual stud…

    HER FANTASY PLAYS OUT… THIS YOUNG HOT GUY WITH ALL THESE OTHER GIRLS AND THREESOMES AND ALL… THIS GUY WANTS MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

    Her wall observing hamster (forebrain this is the hamster…. event horizon in sight… t minus 24 months and counting down) is completely satisfied… there is still some gas in the tank… SHE IS WORTHY….

    and there you go. You come in with the dominance, the strength and take what you want attitude and she gets to feel she is the object of this. LOL… I always say at the root it is never about YOU, it will always be about her (solipsism) and eggzzz needing that quality spermzzzzz….

    So well done. When they WANT the fantasy (whatever that is) GIVE them the fantasy…

    advice – use this woman as your personal 9 1/2 Weeks experiment and push every single sexual boundary you want to push with her ZFG. This experience can change your whole worldview forever and will only accelerate your success with other women… welcome to the club playaaaa…

    props on the dominant kino and the takeaways… FWIW you could have split with her an hour earlier easy… and damn man, don’t know where you are but I hope your peen did not get frostbite! If you’re at her car, tell hop in let’s listen to some music and get in the backseat…. LOL.

  73. ” “And guys, I’m no Chad – average to slightly above average. 6.5 – maybe a 7 max. ”

    aaand you’re basing this on?…”

    Several years ago I was walking down the sidewalk and had just passed a young couple sitting on the stoop when I heard the girl say behind me, “Now that guy is hot, and he knows it.”

    The thing is, it’s the first time I had a clue. I can’t see it at all myself. But then, I am not supposed to. Women are.

    And for the Ya Really critics out there, I’ll note that whatever she was responding to it wasn’t my abs, biceps or suit. I was wearing a slightly oversized, slightly ratty Driza-Bone long riding coat at the time. Basically a canvas garbage sack.

  74. Culum and Scrib, I’ve been following along for quite a while here and before I throw my 2 cents worth of advice in I want to give you both a standing ovation. What you are doing is not easy. It’s at the deepest level a reinvention of who you are. The trick is to reach your goals in a timely fashion. Where I see the problem arising is that you guys are trying to run your game out of your heads right on the field. If you were the QB on a team would you only throw passes in an actual game? These guys practice. What’s called deep practice or smart practice. These things you wish you had said…have you ever said them out loud? Not in writing in a comment thread but actually out loud? That’s about building muscle memory. Personally I have been using some of the very prescriptive techniques from The Talent Code (Dan Coyle) to bring changes into my life. It’s all there: Chunk it up, practice smart, repeat, repeat. I won’t waste space here saying poorly what Coyle says well.

    A small anecdote, sales was an important part of my career. At first I was a nervous wreck when making calls. Then I began to do my pitch out loud before the meeting, several times. In a mirror or to a friend. Things really picked up. It was a case of being familiar with the moves on a body memory level. I didn’t have to run a checklist dialog in my head, I just threw the pass like I had practiced and the completion rate went up. (Same shit applies to getting the pull. I know, I’ve done it.)

    Oh, and Scrib…. I was in high school when you were born and I’m still having fun with all this. I don’t plan to quit until my dick falls off from overuse. So keep it up, you have a long and wonderful path ahead of you.

  75. @culum

    ” I just thought of Scray’s advice to scribblerg on this thread about not overgaming and thought “I don’t really need to pump attraction MORE here do I?” And I just shut up and went harder at the make out and grabbing her tits in the bar mixed with some sexual comments (zero resistance – at one point I had my hands under her top on her tits in the bar).”

    Good!

    Game is NOT just being mr. funny guy and making her laugh or telling stories. The highly verbal stuff is good for the beginning when the AFC is afraid of women and isn’t used to having positive reactions from them. In that case, getting laughs and social recognition is fine.

    but to level up, you have to start playing to WIN. this is what you’re starting to get into. You cut yourself off from telling more of your story to take in the scene around you and what she was giving you and you saw (belatedly of course) that she was waiting for you to pull the trigger.

    so does that mean what you were doing there — essentially keeping her in a sexually receptive state without escalating — not useful?

    nah! what you were doing, lol ironically, would have served you well in bouncing from place to place.

    ‘Like easy highly sexual make out in under an hour and ten mins after that she was grabbing my cock in the bar by herself. The whole nine yards..long before that there was the licking lips business etc.
    And there was also that slightly nervous laughing/giggling thing which I’ve seen 2-3 times now, recently (maybe I saw it in previous lays and didn’t register it) – I am pretty sure this is the laugh coming from the cognitive dissonance of the powerful desire and the unexpectedness of it
    I tried the pull to my apartment (3 min walk) but she flat out refused even though she was obviously super turned on..I pushed hard but it was a real no.”

    applause on meeting at a place that is only a walk from your place. this is a good logistical move.

    i’d have to see how you did it….
    …but i have a chill bar near my place that i have pulled from many many many times. i have also failed to pull from there many many times.

    now, remember, you need to build up enough comfort and trust to make the pull.

    an easy way to build up comfort is just switching venues.
    so here’s how i used to roll:
    bar
    —>car to makeout/whatever
    —> gas station to get whatever bullshit
    —> apartment

    i generally didn’t like too much PDA in the bar — not for any aesthetic reason or anything — i just liked holding back in the bar and then building up that tension and then saying ‘hey let’s go to the car.’ by that point, she wants to release the tension, and so she’ll probably agree.

    in the car, find some way to get ‘it’ out. and not long after that, PUT THE BRAKES ON EVERYTHING. just say you like her and you’re having fun and you want to hang out more. then go take a trip to the gas station to get some snacks for a ‘romantic’ dinner (girls LOVE shit like this — which is great, because it’s cheap as fuck).

    then, when you get back into your car just make up some reason you’d want to eat the food at your place and watch a show.

    also, don’t clean up your apartment unless you want to.

    about your observations:

    ya bro, she wants to fuck you, so of course she’s gonna say all that shit.
    no need to overthink it.

  76. @Blaximus

    “And VIOLA!!! there’s the disconnect. Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it. No buildup. No real conversation.”

    This is very true. I’ve seen it more than a few times in real life. Life isn’t neat nor does it run by a script on “how it should be”. Sometimes, assholes just exist and do shit for no rational reason whatsoever.

    Scenario I witnessed this last summer.

    Man sitting at bar drinking, talking to a buddy. Bartending chick behind the bar, semi-busy, it was a moderate crowd. This was evening time, sun was nearly down.

    Some bumblenut twit comes in with angry written all over his face. The man at the bar didn’t notice him sit down (that I could tell). Bumblenut snarls out a drink order like he was Adolph Motherfucking Hitler ordering the Zyklon B turned on. Waitress, being busy, clearly didn’t hear him fully. She asks “Sorry, I didn’t hear you, what do you want to drink sweety?”

    The guy who was originally at the bar said “He ordered an XYZ”. Helpful, not offensive, just giving her the heads up.

    Bumblenet blows a gasket, starts screaming at the waitress AND the guy who was sitting down then starts direct in on punching the guy who was sitting at the bar, out of the blue.

    He gets knocked back and then down (bumblenut). Cops show up and escort him out. Turns out, he was on drugs and already wanted for altercations in other bars that night.

    There was no fleeing that situation, bumblenut had all of 2 seconds of lead up before he started throwing punches. The guy at the bar couldn’t “just walk away, de-escalate, mention kids”. He was forced to defend himself through no choice of his own, and did. There was no other option.

    Fuck, to think that somehow there is this long build up like in the movies. Shit doesn’t work like that all the time. Sometimes, yes, and you walk away. Other times it comes at you literally out of left field.

    It isn’t about ego, or machismo, or any kind of “social conditioning”. Life isn’t a YouTube clip of a movie, it’s real and it doesn’t always give you options you like or can choose between.

  77. @Dutchman

    You are getting some excellent advice here, although it may sound conflicting and you are coming up short at times because your wife is a master-manipulator of you as we speak. Pay attention to the fundamentals of game that is contained and fit them to your own script.

    I’ve been where you are (although probably not as bad, as I was somewhat more aware I was being manipulated, but needed tools) and have done that. Let me tell you that I feel for you. It’s hard and it takes time to undo years of bad habits. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Practice. Your field reports here are a very valuable tool for you and for others to see. And no less important than any other field report. But it does take time, so don’t be discouraged. Awareness of being manipulated first, than tactics second. Then practice, adapt, and then practice some more.

    I’m pretty far up the learning curve of married man game, but still have a ways to go. Sentient and HABD are great resources. I’m pretty much there in terms of awareness, but not there in terms of mastery.

    Dutchman, you’re still not very much in the awareness phase of how and why she is manipulating you. You are being played like a fiddle. Perhaps you can benefit greatly by pages 105 through 115 of the Joseph W. South book Practical Female Psychology. These pages are eye-opening for someone like you at your stage. If you are still reluctant to purchase books that are on point to help you, perhaps you can get a copy archived on the internet. (if the following link doesn’t get through, it is five down on a Google search of “Joseph w. South practical female psychology”)

    https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-vXiSrVKID8X2y4pD/Joseph%20W%20South,%20David%20Clare%20&%20Franco%20-%20Practical%20Female%20Psychology%20for%20the%20Practical%20Man_djvu.txt

    Read these pages and get back to us here about what you think about this in light of the excellent comments(but perhaps comments that leave you feeling powerless) in the preceding day here. Especially the sections on her wanting you to “communicate” with her–this is simply ploy to confuse and manipulate you.

  78. “It’s hard and it takes time to undo years of bad habits. ”

    On time, since I have some…. 4 1/2 years on now from when I started turning things around… Took 2 years to get things where I wanted… MMSL uses terms like Sex Rank and the battle for who is dominant… Not a bad way to look at it, it’s really a frame battle. In the beginning of turning things around after many years of neglect, you are completely invisible to your wife… she cannot see your frame, she only thinks about hers… It takes months before you even register at all. Then there will be long months of intense conflict as she seesaws between your frame and hers… two steps forward one back kind of stuff…

    But if you grind… do the work… you will get there. Dread will dramatically accelerate your progress. Cat String Theory… she will focus most when you are pulling away… and she can see it. Good luck!

    (From 25 years on in the marriage, 27 in relationship)

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