Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

968 comments on “Ovulation & Dread

  1. @Blaximus
    “Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it.”

    Most of those guys you can spot a mile away and stay away from. And like I’ve said if you get sucker-punched, cool, defend yourself. But I stand by my assertion that the vast VAST majority of fights in a bar can be avoided.

    “Stay close to your Gang Suppression Units.”

    Will do. I legitimately hope you never end up in the hospital and always make it home safe. I’d like that outcome for the guys out there trying to learn game too, which is why I’ll tell them to get a bouncer if there’s trouble brewing or leave to another venue.

  2. YaReally HABD Sun Wukong and all the other guys – thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

    Some responses to various people below, and also some more FRs coming up later from the rest of the week.

    LOL@ HABD’s Star Trek clip. That was hilarious.

    Update on 38 yr old Tinder 6: Entirely unsurprisingly she has sent me a text saying “thanks for the drink, but I don’t think we are looking for the same thing..a few years ago I’d have totally been your girl..but now I’m not that girl anymore..”

    Job now removed from the Tinder profile. Tinder’s not a major source for me anyway but the broader point about not being too open about it stands. The problem is that even if I don’t say “I do X”, they can still see that I am pretty obviously a successful professional mid 30s guy – clothes, neighbourhood, accent..the works.

    Sun Wukong: interesting point about being vague about what you want and how the girl saying she doesn’t do stuff is poor Girl Game. I never thought of it like that – but of course they do it because they live in enough abundance that (as discussed on this thread), they can do that and STILL have guys begging for their company and giving them free stuff. And if it’s an alpha they’ll do whatever he wants anyway.

    I’ve always thought it is better to be clear (mainly to disqualify from being a Provider – to prevent her from thinking she can get that from me). I totally agree that women who say they don’t do X on a first date (or say “no hookups” on Tinder or whatever) are just trying to set the frame, but why take their frame seriously? Surely it is better to just overwhelm your frame with their own? (It won’t always be possible as I found out on this date because her frame on this point was too strong, but that’s a better idea than just backing off totally I think – UNLESS you are swimming in enough abundance that you can fill your time with girls who give you no pushback at all..

    Razorwire – LOL. That’s some turn of phrase – “walking dead” etc – it’s particularly insightful when you say “for these women..you need to be The Mistake”. Like literally I’d have had a better shot with her if I’d turned up, told her I was a garbageman, lied about where I lived, pretended not to understand any of the more sophisticated stuff she said and focussed on my sexual stories and escalated HARD with solid asshole game. I could have overdone it and sent her storming off, but I’d have had a better shot of banging her than what I did..

    YaReally – gold as ever dude. I’ve seen that James Franco clip when you linked it before..I think it’s about staying relaxed instead of TRYING to laser her which could come across as bug eyed. I think if I’m sitting back and smirking at her while she babbles, the right laser mode is easier to hit. Incidentally, when I (semi-accidentally) hit the right sexual vocal tonality with my 29 year old a few days ago, (mainly because it came out of my genuine unfakeable desire for her), I was REALLY surprised by how *soft* my voice was. I knew I had to go slow and deep, but the “real thing” was a lot softer..I hadn’t appreciated that, but now I know what to aim for at least. Also you’re right – I’d forgotten the cutting space part of it – I need to remember to add that bit in.

    The more I hear from chicks..like this 38 year old was telling me about how she dated some married guy from Tinder and finally figured out he was married and threatened to expose him to his wife. Like he never told her his first name only last name (not sure why it was that way round?)..he didn’t have FB or LinkedIn, she didn’t know where he lived etc..but she stalked him down. She wasn’t mental enough to tell his wife at least.

    It’s like..sometimes I think I’m crazy even as a single guy to not volunteer my address or workplace etc..but then I see this stuff and have last year’s near-FRA experience and I’m like “No, I’m not paranoid”. And yet I see all these married guys who need even MORE security than a single guy going around using their real names, real jobs, real phones and the works. Like if I wanted to play around as a married guy I would literally Tell No ONE. Not even my best buddy. Even though I trust him totally it’s just another failure mode.

    @scribblerg – I think that’s a great idea. I’m not sure that it would have been practical to literally introduce her to guys like that in a quiet low energy bar vs a fun prank in a loud club (plus a 38 year old 6 is likely to feel offended at being devalued which a hottie would find funny). But the basic frame is spot on. You want to be the guy she bangs while searching for the right guy, and you can help her find the right guy. In my case it wouldn’t have worked (unless I had done as above and lied about my job and education etc) because I AM already the kind of guy she thinks is suitable for her..only problem is I’m saying I don’t want to settle down. It’s too incongruent for me to play that role basically, without sufficiently disqualifying myself as a prospect (as opposed to being a GREAT prospect who just isn’t *willing* to settle down).

    Sentient – dude, that was brutal in a good way. Like opening the other door and showing me the OTHER paths I could have walked this down on (especially right at the end when you’re right – I really should have turned around, grabbed her hand, pulled her to me and kissed). And LOL at “eggzz seeking quality spermzz”.

    HABD – Yeah good point there too. From now on I’m going to suggest “hanging out” over a drink, not a “date”. PS – Just googled OODA loop – interesting.

  3. Older men are judged even more harshly than younger men because they are expected to have even more success, even more achievements, even more money, simply by virtue of having been on the planet longer. Plus, there are the questions a woman might have. If he’s never been married, she might wonder why. Is there something wrong with him. If he’s divorced, are there children. Does she want to get involved with someone who has kids, etc.

    yes, and then they want to see his bank statement, investment profile, medical history, psych profile, career history, job appraisals, and criminal record. After that she needs to meet his extended family, see how he treats service staff, see how he treats animals, and screen for potential genetic problems. It’s a wonder that old guys get fucked at all.

  4. @hamster_wrestler

    Thanks man.

    I got “lucky” that my pancreas only conked out 24 1/2 years ago. On my last recent retinal exam, the Ophthalmologist found absolutely nothing. Which I find fucking amazing.

    A buddy of mine who retired from PhD. biology research on continuous glucose monitoring, islet cell transplants and insulin delivery is trying to tell me I’m living too close to my edge without having a continuous monitor. Perhaps I am. I’m going to get one. (That was at a year end deer hunting party where I related my story of being at my hunting cabin in the middle of nowhere by myself after a “peak experience day” with buddiesand accidentally took 20 units of Humalog at midnight instead of Lantus and lived to tell about it.)

    It is interesting that since day one, I’ve never really had any fears, DABD (went through the Kubler-Ross stages in about 6 hours the first day. But I benefited by being a board certified internist at the time, so that helped. Bad shit happens randomly.) or never felt sorry for myself.

    I have never whined about it or had any qualms about the burden of performance or my wife branch swinging because of it. It is interesting to me in that fact–my mindset– how this parallels red pill and game mindset.

    Welcome here. Don’t be afraid to comment more here or ask questions about married man game (or divorced father game depending on your situ.). (And as an aside, if you haven’t already done it yet read Jack Donovan’s “The Way of Men” in regards to being a father raising a son in today’s feminized society. After reading that I was able to be a better masculine red-pill father to my son. Much better)

  5. @Shiva – Doctors are the guys who couldn’t hack the math to become engineers. That’s why so many women are flooding the field now.

  6. Hey, Sentient. Kate here. Well, some of the comments really seem like the flip side of the feminist women who tell divorced women with children that her past doesn’t affect her dating prospects. That both isn’t true and makes the woman feel like more of a failure when the reality is she truly has a lower SMV than the feminist thinks she does.

    My own experience was that an eleven year age gap was not enough. A co-worker recently had a 40th birthday, and I was like, damn, this summer was my husband’s 60th! My co-worker seems like a child in comparison. I like to learn about couples with age gaps over twenty years. The most prominent examples that come to mind for me are the Trumps (24 years apart) and the Giffords (husband now deceased- 23 years apart). However, I could not name anyone that I know personally who has a husband 23 years older, which is how I arrive at the conclusion that they are not that common.

    I genuinely wonder how many of those “pulled” women you reference even know the age of the guy they went with. Lying or putting off questions about age until the woman is attached is often advised. I also wonder whether that was a short-lived scenario or if it was any kind of lasting relationship. I still contend that the reality is older men have a more difficult job of forming and maintaining relationships with much younger women. And I say that because- even taking into account the different standards for men and women- I don’t think an older man should be made to feel like a failure for not easily accomplishing this. I still think he’s overcoming a handicap younger men aren’t weighed down by.
    -Kate

  7. PS – Scray and YaReally (and others, but this just occurred to me reading Scray’s comments to scribblerg) – it’s *incredibly* beneficial in this kind of FR for people like me and scribblerg etc to be told “you didn’t imagine that, she DID like you..you should have pulled the trigger”.

    Because as I said in a previous post, learning to see the IOIs is one thing..learning to trust them and act on them is even harder. I’m just starting to develop some trust of those instincts now in the last month or two but that’s why this kind of confirmation is really helpful..

  8. @Sray: “if chess were solved . . .”

    If wishes were horses . . .

    ” . . . your mindset is fucking you over, mang.”

    I accept that rejecting 34 year old single mothers reduces my absolute number of lays. I do not accept that that in any way fucks me over. They aren’t what I want.

    What fucked me over was my mindset when I was in my 20’s.

    @Ya Really: Good game is what gets you what you want. Two players may both be playing WoW, but what gets them what they want will be different, because the different races have different attributes.

    And a 60 year old man does not even operate in the same environment as a 16 year old boy.

  9. “If wishes were horses . . .”

    lol it was a hypothetical to begin with, dude…

    “I do not accept that that in any way fucks me over”

    k sure it’s possible that you’re one of the outliers who has these limiting beliefs that ONLY apply to shit like FAT CHICKS or BPD chicks or whatever/whoever else….and it’s also possible that those limiting beliefs also extend out to 2/10 pointy elbow shit and justify failing to take action like they do on most dudes your age and younger.

    just the way you’re approaching this whole thing.
    too many rules
    logic that isn’t really logic but just self-limiting assumptions about how the world works.

    “And a 60 year old man does not even operate in the same environment as a 16 year old boy.”

    lol! ya he does!
    the hot chick a 21 year old man talks to is the SAME hot chick a 60 year old guy talks to. what is there some kind of CLONE chick that talks to the 60 year old man vs 21 year old man? dafuq?

    i will save this post and i hope to god you keep going out or go out even more so that in like 4 years i can just copy paste it back to you before you’re about to go dickslap some 21 y/o hottie.

  10. @ScribblerG

    “Doctors are the guys who couldn’t hack the math to become engineers. That’s why so many women are flooding the field now.”

    It is interesting that women are being encouraged to enter STEM fields (and you all in those fields know how that is going) and doctoring. It is true that the feminine brain can be trained to think logically and perform in these fields. But I’ve seen enough solipsism in the field to know that I will never be be seen by a woman physician, Ramkissoon or not, because their nature is less attuned to what is best for the patient. I’ve actually seen some of them (and feminine male physicians) actually decide what to do for the patient before they actually opened the closed door and go see the patient. I.e. They do what what in their best interest instead of what is indicated in the best interest of the patient. You could call it ramkissooning, if you will. And using emotions over logic.

    (Of course it’s best not to say this out loud. It is a relative tendency, not an absolute driving force and only a small, small percentage of actual potential outcomes. And plenty of male physicians are self interested. But I’m not taking any chances).

  11. @Culum Struan
    “a few years ago I’d have totally been your girl..but now I’m not that girl anymore..””

    That’s the indication that what you did was solid. She knows she would’ve fucked you when she was younger etc with the moves you were pulling at the end there, but her survival/replication shit is way too solid at her age for her to risk getting involved and catching feelings for you and shit. She needs a beta bucks ASAP.

    That’s why I say what you did would’ve worked on a younger chick. It was solid Attraction game. That’s why I want old guys to hit up young chicks because like, that was a lay if she was 25. But she’s 38 so she’ll be a pain in the ass lol

    You might have been able to turn it around with a final attempt like Sentient said, but either way you did good even ATTEMPTING anything and holding your frame like that so props.

    “The problem is that even if I don’t say “I do X”, they can still see that I am pretty obviously a successful professional mid 30s guy – clothes, neighbourhood, accent..the works.”

    That’s alright though. Because they don’t actually KNOW, so you stay a bit of a mystery. They THINK they know but they don’t KNOW they know…so if they ask and then you fuck around with the answer or change the subject, then they REALLY don’t know. And all of that gives you emotional impact. More than if you said “I’m an accountant” and they said “oh that means he makes between X and Y dollars now I can assess him based on that” and killed all the mystery.

    If careers come up brush it off and turn the conversation around on her, and if she keeps going back to it tell her you don’t tell women you’ve just met what you do because you find when you do they start being fake with you and trying to tell you what they think you want to hear and act how they think you want them to act and you’d rather we get to know the real person so tell me what is it about blah that you love? (change the topic). If she goes back to it AGAIN you can Soft Next her with a “You know, I get the feeling you’re looking for something VERY different from me. It was nice to meet you and I wish you the best in your search.” dismissing her as if you’re turned off by her golddiggery ways…like get that vibe across that like, she’s looking for your money or a guy with money and you’re looking for a deep REAL connection with someone. Might get her to chase you for a second chance where she drops that shit (long enough to fuck her lol).

    “Surely it is better to just overwhelm your frame with their own?”

    Yup. Like the old PUA motto goes: “Change her mood, not her mind” Her “rules” don’t matter. The reason guys get caught up in them is because they take the girl on a “dinner date” and let her lead the conversation into the resume exchange where she can assess whether he’s a waste of her time or not so she can move onto her next Tinder date she has lined up after this one. She’s not going to ask those questions while we’re shooting a game of pool or playing darts or walking around doing some other activity. Or if we’re sitting on a dinner date, she’s not going to ask those questions if I’m leading the conversation into more interesting topics instead of letting her go into that mode.

    It’s like the Flintstones, how when they set Pebbles down she just keeps crawling toward the wall until she bumps into it and keeps crawling against it. When you let her lead the conversation she’ll just start crawling toward that wall again lol

    “UNLESS you are swimming in enough abundance that you can fill your time with girls who give you no pushback at all..”

    A lot of guys who don’t try to turn these situations around end up with weaker game in the longrun because they don’t learn to push the boundaries and problem-solve. It’s like if you turned off your computer and stopped working every time a program crashed. Try problem-solving that shit and see if you can fix it before you toss it away. Like oldschool Tyler said: “you can’t Next a girl you haven’t fucked…that’s HER Nexting YOU”

    “Like literally I’d have had a better shot with her if I’d turned up, told her I was a garbageman, lied about where I lived, pretended not to understand any of the more sophisticated stuff she said and focussed on my sexual stories and escalated HARD with solid asshole game. I could have overdone it and sent her storming off, but I’d have had a better shot of banging her than what I did..”

    lol not entirely inaccurate. That’s pretty much my method right now. I put myself right into the scumbag category. The funniest part is that the <25yo crowd WANTS that because a lot of them don't WANT to date or settle yet. So what keeps happening to me is like, they'll tease me about "wow you're drunk all the time hey" and it SOUNDS like an insult or a turn-off, logically it should be, but every time I say "nah just on the weekends really" or "lol ya but I'm trying to cut back for 2016" etc they instantly get turned off and will even say "lol I don't believe you" because they WANT me to be that scumbag loser drunk, because that's the guy they can fuck with no strings attached lol It's surreal but makes complete sense when you understand the Lover/Provider dynamic. I'm the guy they can go cheat with or have an adventure with with no drama just fun, as long as I'm that boozed up Hank Moody.

    I don't even really drink that much, but I know that archetype is perfect for the Lover role. If I WANTED to be the upstanding guy who doesn't drink etc and still be in a Lover role I could do it (I would focus a lot more on my mindsets about having commitment issues and tell more stories about other girls and shit so it's my INTERNALS that keep me in the Lover category instead of my externals (drinking etc)), but this is a lot easier (and funnier to me) lol

    "I think it’s about staying relaxed instead of TRYING to laser her which could come across as bug eyed."

    I like the idea of "pretend you have an in-joke with yourself that she doesn't get", like you have that kind of half-grin in your eyes like you're amused as you look into her eyes, amused by her reactions, it's cute that she's about to get sucked into your laser eyes and be helpless to resist you, etc etc

    "I knew I had to go slow and deep, but the “real thing” was a lot softer.."

    Again it's the same voice you probably have after fucking…like just this long slow croaking soft voice because everything is right with the world. Like my words will trail off, or blend into eachother, etc

    "I’d forgotten the cutting space part of it"

    Ya this is key. KEY KEY KEY. Cut space as soon as you can while lasering. The vid of Robbie Williams using lasers and cutting space on an interviewer chick has been taken down so hopefully you've seen it when I've linked it before, it looks like this:

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wQb4ieoWp9w/hqdefault.jpg

    In that clip she can form words still when his face is a foot away from her's, but when he cuts the space and gets closer and closer her circuits fry and the sexual tension ramps through the roof. Then he backs off and it goes back down and she can catch her breathe, then he does it again and the same thing happens.

    "And yet I see all these married guys who need even MORE security than a single guy going around using their real names, real jobs, real phones and the works."

    They are retarded and naive and don't understand how the world is these days. A lot of them will get burned.

    Thing is when you're going for that 35+yo crowd they want to know your name, age, occupation, whether you have a wife and kids you're hiding (they want your Facebook to snoop), etc etc because that stuff is relevant for them to land you as a husband.

    But the girls in their 20s? Way less fucks, if ANY, given about that stuff. Girls in bars will make out with me without even exchanging names or careers or anything, it just doesn't matter to them. On dates I just give them fake names/careers and change the subject ASAP to them and their career etc. I've had fuckbuddies for months/years who don't know anything about me except my first name lol

    "Like if I wanted to play around as a married guy I would literally Tell No ONE. Not even my best buddy. Even though I trust him totally it’s just another failure mode."

    This is why I harp on guys to keep their shit anonymous.

    "You want to be the guy she bangs while searching for the right guy, and you can help her find the right guy."

    I've literally told them this before. Like I have routines where I talk about how I'm not that boyfriend guy, I'm the guy that girls hang out with while they look for Mr. Right because they can't put out for that guy right away or he'll think they're a slut etc etc

    "HABD – Yeah good point there too. From now on I’m going to suggest “hanging out” over a drink, not a “date”. PS – Just googled OODA loop – interesting."

    Shit you're not saying the word "date" are you???? That's like PUA 101. Say "hanging out" or "grabbing a drink" not "date". "Date" has WAYYYY too many connotations. You might as well say "interview" lol A good mental frame is that she hasn't earned a DATE yet, this is just you hanging out to see if she's cool or not. You can even tell her that if she brings up "are you buying dinner" etc. Be like no I don't know if you're crazy yet. This is just to see if we have chemistry and if I want to see you again. You're the buyer, not the seller. Or you can be crass like me and say I don't buy dinner for girls I haven't fucked yet lol

    "it’s *incredibly* beneficial in this kind of FR for people like me and scribblerg etc to be told “you didn’t imagine that, she DID like you..you should have pulled the trigger”."

    Ya that's why I'm stressing like, if that were a younger chick what you did was solid. You DID turn her around, she just has a massive wall built up because it's VITAL for her to not waste time right now. She as much as admits it lol You're making awesome progress dude, I don't always have time to comment on your FRs but I read them and try to drop in points here and there.

    @Kate
    "Lying or putting off questions about age until the woman is attached is often advised."

    I tell them up front. I think it's hilarious. I make them do the math to know just how much older than them I am lol

    "I still contend that the reality is older men have a more difficult job of forming and maintaining relationships with much younger women. And I say that because…"

    …because you're no longer a young hot girl lol

    "for not easily accomplishing this."

    No one said it was easy or that he's a failure. He's a fucking boss for even attempting it. Most guys would lay down and wait for death.

    @kfg
    "Good game is what gets you what you want."

    Today I learned rape is good game.

    @Sun Wukong
    "Best way to catch IOIs in the moment that I’ve found is to assume the sale."

    This is the ideal (oldschool PUA mantra of "assume attraction") but new guys often need some confirmation first. A lot of the time when a guy spends a significant portion of his life thinking girls aren't attracted to him or because he's old (short, fat, etc) girls CAN'T be attracted to him, receive iois but miss them or discount them or doubt them or squint at them as they pass by like "wait was that what I think it might've been? maybe I was imagining it hmmm…" etc

    Which is, of course, why we push them out infield. So they collect more and more until they CAN'T ignore them. Once they realize they CAN get iois from these girls, then it becomes a lot easier to just assume attraction. Gotta collect those reference experiences, that's why you gotta push your comfort zone.

  12. @Scray: “it was a hypothetical to begin with, dude…”

    My example was real world, but closer to an ideal model, i.e. less complicated than human social interaction, which includes elements of chance.

    “too many rules”

    I stipulate that the rules of a game are the rules of the game. I am not playing fizbin. I have introduced no rules.

    “the hot chick a 21 year old man talks to is the SAME hot chick a 60 year old guy talks to.”

    Do you know what an environment is?

    Ya Really: “Today I learned rape is good game.”

    We can all learn. If you are a rapist and get the rape, that is good game. If, instead, you get a .45ACP between the eyes, that is bad game.

    Don’t let your mindset limit you. Game isn’t restricted to stuff you approve of.

  13. @Ya, Scray, KFG, Sentient, Culum, Razor (? lost track, was Razor one?) and some others I’m sure – HOLY FUCK. In no particularly order:

    No more “old man game”. That landed, done and dusted. And yes, Ya, it was becoming an identity and getting worse not better the more I gamed. But I’ve had other experiences like this with limiting beliefs and you guys hit the exact KO.

    She did want to fuck me, She’s done that several times and I haven’t been able to get her in close because she’s working. Today was the acid test for me cuz she didn’t need to be nice. I had lasered her from a distance a couple of times and she flushed. Today, she just beamed at me, but I can’t process it.

    I’ve always known this. but at the same time bad conditioning is so internalized and I’ve been making it worse because i’m trying to overcome my “deficit” of being old with game. Fucking hell. Funniest is that when I slow down, stay in set, ignore the yammering nonsense in my head and stay with her instead of my BS it goes fine, until I get some resistance.

    @KFG Isolating and escalating is the key and in the place I’m working it’s hard to do. Have try other venues, and stop staying in my comfort zone.

    Message received. I don’t have to change my internals, I have to first start ot laugh at them and realize the don’t matter. As @Forge points out, she threw her pussy at me and I fumbled it. How embarrassing for her. She’s already selected in – I’m not selling shit, I’m buying at that point.

    As @Scray pointed out, I could still be fucking her back at my place right now if I wasn’t such a chode, lol. But hey, I’m open to improvement and willing to put in the work.

    @Blax – Love you dude, but you are stuck on this fighting thing. While not as tough as you, I had the same attitude and you know what? It’s fucking bullshit. I’m different now, I defused something recently where some asswipe was giving my buddy the finger in a bar, typical American English futbol fan trying to act like a “lad” (nobody I’d like to punch in the face more, what fucking douches those guys are) and my buddy was going to go get in his face. I would have, in the past, had his back, and maybe his front as I’m smaller and when I let the inner maniac out, it’s even more bizarre from a smaller guy, looking up at you from six inches down, spraying spittle in the face but instead I was like? “Craig, who has more to lose, you or him?” Craig is worth several million. Craig and I have high profile lives that would be affected by any kind of criminal even of any sort as our backgrounds get checked out often due to the work we both do. I calmed him and we rolled on.

    I have too much to lose to get in a stupid fist fight, and you do too, Blax. I also know – as you have to as well – that there is always someone tougher out there. Or a guy can get a lucky shot, and a guy can die from one good punch. You get knocked out, hit your head on a table or the curb or the ground just the right way, and you’re dead.

    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKU6lusdPWk&w=560&h=315%5D

    Guys, thanks so much for the assistance. I’m committed to improving my game and will continue with the FRs. It’s humbling but hey, who gives a fuck? When I’m sinking my cock balls deep in some 23 yr old hottie sooner rather than later, it will be worth it. I know you guys are spot on, I feel it in my gut, it’s my head that is fucking it up. Got it.

  14. Of course you do, YaReally. You are completely steeped in the culture. You’re an MPUA. Old school.

    I like to guess people’s ages based on their writing. I’m placing you within one or two years on either side of forty. You’ve technically passed the wall, but your effervescence is what consistently wins you friends and women.

    Nobody likes to admit that there are such things, but you *are* a special snowflake. You are the pick up poster child. You’ve overcome things and you commendably consistently engage in virtual missionary work to help others. While I certainly believe a person can improve, I don’t believe that improvement is limitless. Age is one of those limiting factors one runs up against. I’m all for everybody becoming the best version of themselves, but I think it is unwise for men or women to harbor and propagate delusions about the reality of the SMP.

    Ah, there’s my exit.

  15. @Kate
    “While I certainly believe a person can improve, I don’t believe that improvement is limitless.”

    Of course you don’t, you’re a woman. That’s why men built civilization while women told them to “just lay down” lol

    “Age is one of those limiting factors one runs up against. I’m all for everybody becoming the best version of themselves, but I think it is unwise for men or women to harbor and propagate delusions about the reality of the SMP.”

    There are plenty of 50+ guys fucking young poon. You’d just rather they went for women your age.

  16. @Hollen – This one is for you bud…
    http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/wp-content/uploads/socialismo-cc.jpg

    @Kate – Sure, let’s listen to you sweetie. I mean, you are an expert in pickup who’s helped dozens or maybe hundreds or even maybe thousands of guys bang young hotties. Methinks you are actually expressing a bit of “buyer’s remorse” actually. But then again, you locked down a colossal loser and faux alpha, it only makes sense you’d be second guessing and looking to upgrade. Hanging about here with a sock account looking for tingles, yep, sounds about right.

  17. @scribblerg
    “No more “old man game”. That landed, done and dusted. And yes, Ya, it was becoming an identity and getting worse not better the more I gamed. But I’ve had other experiences like this with limiting beliefs and you guys hit the exact KO.”

    Good man. Your ego will fuck with you FOREVER. Even when you escape it you’ll build an ego around being free of it…”look how enlightened I am, not like these OTHER plebs all trapped in their ego, I’M free of MY ego” lol

    Revolver is an interesting take on a guy fighting his own ego and how it’ll try to come in through the back door and fake it and do ANYTHING to keep control of you (metaphorically):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeW7T5Q5mhI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJEfHiTYfZ0

    And I can’t find the apology scene but it’s pretty epic and a great depiction of going against what your ego wants.

    The movie is pretty powerful/deep when you understand what they’re trying to depict. The first time I saw the movie I didn’t get it and was like “wtf did I just watch that was stupid” lol

  18. (in that first scene he spends the whole movie with claustrophobia scared to take elevators (takes the stairs all the time) and he’s decided to confront his fear/ego/identity and step into the elevator doing what his ego doesn’t want him to do…this is kind of what some guys go through with Approach Anxiety which is basically pushing yourself to do what your ego doesn’t want you to do)

  19. @scribblerg
    ‘havent been able to get her in close cause shes working”
    Try writing in a match book meet me at the pullman for a drink at 7.just slip it to her this is private and non commital.

  20. @scribblerg
    Beauty, found the apology scene:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWct5xpyJk8

    This is him forcing his ego to do things that might hurt it (feeling like a bitch, getting rejected by a cafe girl) or hurt his identity (“I’m a guy who doesn’t apologize to scumbags” “I’m a player who never gets rejected”) and a representation of the pushback that happens when you kill your ego. Most guys aren’t playing to win, they’re playing to “not lose”, because their ego wants to protect itself from being shaken. How can you be this badass player who banged all these girls when you were younger if that cafe girl shoots you down or worse is CREEPED OUT by you and your fat old belly? Well shit, if she doesn’t like you then you must not be that player and THEN what ARE you?? Just some old guy with weaker game than you used to have, trying to learn game. You can’t be that, you’re the man, you banged a million girls and scored all the touchdowns. That’s who you are, you aren’t some guy who gets rejected in a cafe.

    All of this is happening in a split second in the moment. And any time you challenge your ego and try to change your identity, you’ll run into it. So learn to love it, because it’s a sign that you’re pushing yourself in ways that most people will never even get off the couch and turn off Netflix to attempt. That battle is your new best friend the same way the pain in the gym is.

    Growth comes from doing what your ego doesn’t want it to do. This is why we push guys out of their comfort zones. Kill your ego. And understand that it’ll come back and you’ll have to kill it again, in another form…always push your comfort zone. The second you start to rest is the second you start stagnating into an identity/ego and will resist change and stop growing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbIe513n3uk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wrvgkeCCX4

    @kfg
    I legitimately have no idea what you’re saying anymore lol

  21. @YaReally

    “a few years ago I’d have totally been your girl..but now I’m not that girl anymore..””

    That’s the indication that what you did was solid. She knows she would’ve fucked you when she was younger etc with the moves you were pulling at the end there, but her survival/replication shit is way too solid at her age for her to risk getting involved and catching feelings for you and shit. She needs a beta bucks ASAP.

    I caught an almost identical line from Beer Bottle Chick’s friend that I was hitting on. Like she had the wryest grin she was fighting, bedroom eyes, and a slightly more sexual tone to her voice as she said “You are so much like the guys I dated in the past…”

    If my buddy hadn’t cockblocked and had instead kept BBC busy, I’d have been in with the chick.

  22. @A Fake Boy’s Life

    LOL – GeishaKate… Did not recognize this Boy’s Life gambit… seriously nothing has fucked up more men (and boys) then well intentioned advice from solipsistic projection prone women (sisters, Moms, Aunts, etc.)

    Seriously if there was a Manosphere Legal Support Fund, I would petition for an injunction shutting down your site… Why oh why can’t you just write for women?

    “However, I could not name anyone that I know personally who has a husband 23 years older, which is how I arrive at the conclusion that they are not that common.”

    Solipsism in action… so “you” can’t name anyone with a “husband” with a 23 year age spread…? so therefore this sample is enough to make broad conclusions on. Meanwhile you have what a 24 year spread, yeah? Amusing. What SES group are you in? IN UMC/UC communities this is a very common age spread among divorced law firm partners, cardiologists, real estate developers and finance guys… LOL. Second wife is late 20’s (imagine… looking to settle down) and they are 50’s… My neighbor is 75 and has a 20 YO in college… from his 50 YO wife… who he married at 30.

    But the real issue is the “husband” angle… because you narrowly define this as the measure of what early 20 girls will find fuckable… LOL None of us post 45 want to marry an early 20’s girl! They are younger than our kids… But that doesn’t mean they aren’t getting fucked. That is the measure of attraction.

    But putting 2016 SM dynamics aside… look to nature – who has all the mates… The old bull elk, the old silverback gorilla, the old alpha lion… the young guys are running around horny… Or look to history – who had his choice of fair maidens? The lord or the 20 YO serf? The warrior leader or the shield carrier?

    But the FI blinds you to this reality… because it is in your interest to deny and denigrate natural law and the love that an older man has for the beautiful young woman, the prime SMV women. And that love is reciprocated.

    Jeezzz… just look to gossip pages and celebrities if you can’t look around you… you see this all the time.

  23. For the first time that I’ve ever read one of Rollo’s post I can skip the comments (temporarily) and jump right into the comment box.

    I get it.

    Where I might lack in game and it’s overt arts used in social settings this is an aspect of an LTR that is naturally easy to comprehend. For me it’s because I’ve paid very close attention to the cycle of the women I’m in an LTR with and have seen these types of behaviors month after month. If you’re not consistently around the same group(s) of women it’s much more difficult to master your behavior with the female cycle. Then you do need to hone your observation skills and watch for subtle and not so subtle cues. There are dozens of cues to look out for with her emotions, body language, perfume, dress, even the panties she has chosen to wear.

    What’s described in this posts explains a great deal about why what may seem random at times your woman calls her friends or coworkers sluts and bitches. Then a week later they are all sitting around drinking wine complaining about cramps and bossing their partner around.

    In addition to using this mastery for power and knowing where you stand it can also lead to a lot of high tension sexual fun. Who needs a BPD woman for monkey sex when you’ve figured out how to work with the cycle right in front of you? Soft dread is most effective and least threatening. I often will plan time together, or apart from her spending it with buddies going out to fuel these tensions. Done with a bit of playful fun it won’t harm the trust she has in you and can develop into ongoing rendezvous filled with lustful zeal. After a period of time both partners can find it mutually beneficial and if done right can create intimacy, if you desire that.

    This stuff works and is much less challenging to master if you ask me. Though that could be a buffer of my own to learning overt game with cold approaches.

  24. @Stuffinbox:

    Laws are part of the environment of game, not part of the rules of game.
    The Rape of the Sabine Women was fantastic game that founded an empire.

    One of the elements of good game strategy is to only break the laws you intend to break.

    Al Capone got nailed for tax evasion.

    The DC Madam only got nailed for promoting prostitution, because she kept meticulous books and paid her taxes. Her game was better than Capone’s.

    The guys who got nailed for a night time store robbery because they drove away from the scene with their headlights off so as not to attract attention to themselves had truly idiotic game.

  25. @roused

    “There are dozens of cues to look out for with her emotions, body language, perfume, dress, even the panties she has chosen to wear.”

    Actually just look at the lunar phase… women are on a 28 day cycle like the moon… a very large portion synch to the full moon…

    or just check the trash can for tampon wrappers… LOL

  26. @Sentient – Played some pretty serious high stakes and tourney poker, one could have called me semi-pro at a certain point. Emotion and ego and confidence are the enemy of good poker. All other games are losers in which you have a negative expectation over time. Psychology, strategy and probability are the tools of the poker player. Shoving a bunch of money onto a roulette table and betting it on black is sheer idiocy and best left to movies…

    @Ya – As I’ve explained in longer form, my ego buffers and delusions had become huge and I didn’t even realize it. The “soft sugar daddy” game I was playing was about protecting the image I had of being a an aging player who still “had it”. But in reality I was nothing of the sort. And while I had success with women when I was younger in certain ways, it was never easy or fun, it was always fraught with lots of difficulty. I never had the PUA mindset, I was merely an attractive guy with some social intelligence, loads of aggression and a good line of bullshit. I had a kind of abundance mindset and also figured out early on to close early and either fuck or move on. But I was stuck inside a pedestalization mindset. Even if I did have casual sex, or a woman who just wanted to fuck, I turned it into me pedestalizing them and trying to make a relationship out of it or I lost interest.

    The even weirder side is that I didn’t respect women who threw themselves at me. It felt “wrong” at some basic Blue Pill level. And I turned down some pretty sweet pussy cuz I felt it was wrong somehow cuz they weren’t making me work hard enough. I was truly fucked in the head for my entire life about women, even though i managed to fuck 100 or so of them. Remember, I spent my 30s and 40s single, making a ton of money and successful and with interests like adventure sports and racing sailboats and playing guitar/singing/songwriting. I had a lot of pussy catnip. If I knew then just the little I know now, I’d have fucked 200 of them. But the mindset was still crap.

    Now? All the shit you laid our above, plus the social conditioning and yes, it happens in a second, and I sabotage and make it mean too much. My only advantage? I’ve had to work through so much other mental and egoic and attitudinal shit in my life before that I’m fine with doing so in this area. I’m committed to this and am actually enjoying this all in a way. I wasn’t upset with the situation in the cafe, I will fire more rounds – I had two failed approaches after that. I actually chased one down but she managed to get away with me bumbling a half sentence. Fuck it, I will master this.

    It feels a lot like when I was learning to cold call when I first started selling. Once I developed the mindset that I was qualifying them in more than I was waiting for them to express interest and “buy” from me, that’s when I became a rockstar tech sales guy. The techniques of selling became second nature, I literally was the guy in the office the manager would give the phone to and say, “Here, let Glenn show you how its done. Call someone on his list Glenn and lets watch him get a meeting.” This was way back when you could get someone on the phone pretty readily. A few dials, I’d get them on the phone and I could get agreement for a meeting with just a few benefit statements, some simple objection handling and closing for a meeting. I could get anyone to meet with me and it was no big deal. When I became great is when I only took the meetings with the prospects who were qualified and I started doing so more and more up front, on the phone. To this day, I when I actually do some selling for one of my clients (more of a form of market research), almost every meeting I generate is a real opportunity, rarely a lookyloo.

    I think you are talking about the same mindset in the sense that you guys know you can work a girl through a sequence, and not blow it up so your metagame is where the focus is. You don’t get drawn into their acceptance or rejection being about you. Same when I sell, it’s just info and then “next” if it’s not a good place for me to spend my time anymore.

    In that case, it was all about making the calls. In this world I will not confront what’s not working if I don’t approach and do FRs and get feedback, in addition to doing Pimp etc. I’m unafraid, willing to fail and be uncomfortable. I predict a pussy bonanza at some point in 2016!

  27. @Scribbleberg

    “@Sentient – Played some pretty serious high stakes and tourney poker, one could have called me semi-pro at a certain point. Emotion and ego and confidence are the enemy of good poker. All other games are losers in which you have a negative expectation over time. Psychology, strategy and probability are the tools of the poker player. Shoving a bunch of money onto a roulette table and betting it on black is sheer idiocy and best left to movie”

    That scene is not at all about maximizing your gambling take…. LOL

  28. Add to that what SJF wrote:

    “Relying on dread? The trick is to not rely on dread because you, the man, is so good that she is the one generating dread. So you don’t have to.”

    Dread is a tool to be used carefully with timing and subtlety. Overuse anything and it becomes less effective. I find it best applied when I want monkey sex.

    If you suck at being a man and she isn’t attracted to your masculine qualities and how you carry yourself (frame) then don’t expect her to respond.

  29. @Sentient

    Yes, the lunar phase can be used as well, but not as a single element. I don’t need to rummage around looking for tampons. I know her cycle very well, all phases. The moon and astrology as mentioned last week are like crack. Who needs dread? Just get a pack of Tarot cards out during a full moon. LOL

  30. Hey YaReally, can you let Lumpy know that whatever Rollo did recently to the comments section code, it broke the shit out of YaReally Archive’s ability to grab new stuff?

  31. @scribblerg
    “My only advantage? I’ve had to work through so much other mental and egoic and attitudinal shit in my life before that I’m fine with doing so in this area. I’m committed to this and am actually enjoying this all in a way.”

    That’s why I’m not worried about you. You’ll be fine. Just keep putting in the work and trust the process.

    And ya it’s the same mentality as your cold calling approach, just apply it to girls. RSD uses the Best Buy analogy: imagine you walk into Best Buy to buy a new big screen TV. You have the money in your pocket and you know you WANT a TV. But you don’t know which one yet and when you’re looking at the TVs the salesperson has to list the features to you and impress YOU. You’re not trying to convince them to LET you buy a TV, view it as them trying to sell you on their particular TV. You’re the buyer, not the seller.

    @HowlingManTodd
    “Hey YaReally, can you let Lumpy know that whatever Rollo did recently to the comments section code, it broke the shit out of YaReally Archive’s ability to grab new stuff?”

    Thanks for the heads-up, I’ll give him a shout. WAY TO GO ROLLO.

  32. @Sentient – I shut that movie off after 10 mins when I tried to watch it. The excerpt above seemed pretty stupid and i turned it off halfway through so maybe I missed the point. As for “all in” – I only shove my whole stack in when I’m incredibly favored and know I’m ahead, and doing so is likely to induce a call or shove an opponent off a weak hand (and I’ll bluff like that in only incredibly rare situations because my edge is big enough that I don’t need to take that kind of risk). But then again, poker isn’t actually gambling at all, it’s about being better than the other players (hence why game selection is the biggest factor in making money playing poker). Last time I went to Caesars in Vegas I walked out with a grand in 6 hours of play. I love playing cards with “gamblers” lol…

  33. Rollo, what you wrote in comments at 8:41am on Jan. 26 was a perfect followup to your post. The anti-seductive aspect is easily forgotten, and we’re programmed by society to think we have to build trust. If we’re not living even just a little on the edge we, and our partners become complacent.

    Worked late tonight, afterwards had the house to myself. Finally decided it was time to watch Fight Club. Wow! Better late than never!

  34. @Rollo – From The Mature Man post – “Men become happier than women by mid-life and for the most part I think I can see why. Most women in their late 30s to mid 40s are, for the most part, chronic complainers. After going through the high drama phases of her 20s, into kids, marriages and divorces in her 30s, women tend to content themselves languishing in this dissatisfaction that her fantasy life isn’t panning out. Nothing measures up to the perceived ideals she thinks are her due. Most women in western culture who find themselves single at 38-42 are there after an earlier life that didn’t go as planned. They almost universally carry some kind of baggage. Can they be attractive? Uncommonly, but yes. However it’s a mistake to assume older (or at least age level peers) women to be more intellectually equitable with older men and therefore more compatible choices for LTRs / marriage. I’m sorry if this comes off as glossing myself, but honestly, I’ve encountered very few women I can relate to intellectually or that I’d consider equal in my particular interests, my life experiences, my passions, etc.”

    The bitterness and sense of entitlement is just overwhelming, too, in addition to most of them not being able to hold an intelligent conversation. I actually find many women in this age bracket attractive enough. And I get interest from them, but every time I chat one up I find myself horrified. It’s funny, I could fuck a bunch of them with ease as I treat then like shit and they respect me cuz we both know they are not the prize anymore. Last one like that literally kind of abandoned her date to fixate on me as I talked down to her from the next table. And she was decent looking, just such a ridiculous person. Delusional, in a way.

    Young women are just so much more optimistic and legitimately curious and fun to hang with. There is no “baggage” as you put it. It’s funny, one of the things I always end up talking to young women about is the women of that age, I just say, “They are fucking batshit”, and the girls always nod in agreement and start telling me about their moms or her friends or other women of that age they know and how crazy they are. Some also seem to feel entitled to me, lol. Really, it’s just too much. I’ll hack away at the young hotties until I can’t anymore, thanks. It’s much more fun then sticking my dick into a meat grinder…

  35. You guys are killing me.

    YaReally’s lecturing Blaximus on staying out of fights, while keyboard sparring/fighting with KFG.

    Scribbler telling Sentient that the Gambler movie excerpt looked pretty insipid after he told me to read “The Gambler” by Dostoyevsky last week. And now Scribbler realizes he actually had it in him all the time. As he recalls from poker and sales (Glenngarry Glenn Ross style sales).
    He just has to kill his ego, as explained by YaReally in the Gambler movie.

    Which ties into Fight Club, which Roused decided to just watch, which is all about killing the ego. Which YaReally, HABD, Sentient and Scray just got done lecturing on.

    Re Fight club (Spoiler alert, don’t read from Wikipedia):

    Fincher outlined the narrator’s background: “He’s tried to do everything he was taught to do, tried to fit into the world by becoming the thing he isn’t.” The narrator cannot find happiness, so he travels on a path to enlightenment in which he must “kill” his parents, his god, and his teacher. At the start of the film, he has killed his parents. With Tyler Durden, he kills his god by doing things they are not supposed to do. To complete the process of maturing, the narrator has to kill his teacher, Tyler Durden.

    The character is a 1990s inverse of The Graduate archetype: “a guy who does not have a world of possibilities in front of him, he has no possibilities, he literally cannot imagine a way to change his life.” He is confused and enraged, so he responds to his environment by creating Tyler Durden, a Nietzschean Übermensch, in his mind. While Tyler is who the narrator would want to be, he is not empathetic and does not help the narrator face decisions in his life “that are complicated and have moral and ethical implications”. Fincher explained, “[Tyler] can deal with the concepts of our lives in an idealistic fashion, but it doesn’t have anything to do with the compromises of real life as modern man knows it. Which is: You’re not really necessary to a lot of what’s going on. It’s built, it just needs to run now.

    Which brings us back to Tyler Durden from RSD. And game and ego and not using the fore-brain to think too much because the reticular activating system should be on auto-pilot.

    The manosphere doesn’t get any better than this shit right here. Thanks Rollo!

    And thanks to the “new”-commenter guys Culum, Sentient and HABD and Scray for the excellent thoughts. Well done.

  36. @scribblerg

    holy shit!…it looks like everybody jumped on that fumble…lol…

    and props on putting in the work to get better…

    you triggered me with that ‘old man game’ crap …lol…(like nails on a chalk board…) so, i didn’t even make it past your comment…but i now see that YaReally weighed in (as well as many other men that know what they are doing) (just scanned it…and everything else,too…), so i know you’re getting good advice…and since everybody else weighed in too, now all the GOOD analysis is gone, and i’ll just have to settle for the sloppy [counts on fingers…] uh, whatevers…lol…

    so, i’ll just point out a couple things…

    “But I was stuck inside a pedestalization mindset. Even if I did have casual sex, or a woman who just wanted to fuck, I turned it into me pedestalizing them and trying to make a relationship out of it or I lost interest.”

    this is straight up FI…

    “The even weirder side is that I didn’t respect women who threw themselves at me. It felt “wrong” at some basic Blue Pill level. And I turned down some pretty sweet pussy cuz I felt it was wrong somehow cuz they weren’t making me work hard enough.”

    this is straight up FI…

    “Now? All the shit you laid our above, plus the social conditioning and yes, it happens in a second, and I sabotage and make it mean too much. ”

    FI…

    do you sense a theme?…these are ALL from the beta provider enforcement subroutine…

    “I’m committed to this and am actually enjoying this all in a way. ”

    there you go…the first layer of FI is starting to slip away…great job…

    “I’m unafraid, willing to fail and be uncomfortable.”

    aaaand, there’s the next layer…

    since you’ve put in the effort to get better…

    [whirrrrrrr…..click…….drop……. plop]

    {pellet of game advice}…lol

    here’s some actionable intel for next coffee shop meet…for when you freeze up…

    you freeze…so, focus on HER about what YOU like/dislike (depending on whether you are pulling or pushing) about HER…

    memorizing this wouldn’t hurt you…lol

    pull:

    “I like your [something about her]. Tell me about it.”

    – this can be either something she CAN change (hairstyle, clothing, accessories, etc ) or CAN’T change (eyes, height, etc).

    push:

    “I don’t like [something about her]. Tell me what you think I would like better.” (let her/make her guess)

    – NB – this can be ONLY something she CAN change…(bc otherwise, you are telling her that you don’t like HER)

    observe the results, adjust, rinse and repeat…

    good luck!

    @scray

    props dude…you’ve come a long way…

    good luck!

  37. Mini FR:

    Went to a strip club with an older guy I knew. Got divorce raped and still very blue pill and bitter. Everyone there seems to know him but it’s because he blows his money there. He’s talking with a stripper he knows listening to her bs and then making boring conversation with her. I’m looking at her in the eyes. A couple other strippers are behind her and are giving me a glance (There’s an significant age difference between me and him). One of them goes on stage. Good looking but not much in the area that matters. She gets off the stage and comes talk to us all cheerily. He gave her some money and I borrowed a dollar to give her. Asked her (genuine question) how do you become a stripper if you are not well endowed. She got pissed and said she’ll punch me in the face. I said I wasn’t talking about her. WK guy then grabs her and then says that I need to learn to keep my mouth shut and all sorts of bs. I told her she could slap me if she wanted. She said no thanks and that I’m not very self aware and left. Later the guy tells me that was very rude and that if she wasn’t at work she would’ve laid into me and that you talk to girls by giving them compliments (facepalm). Probably could’ve predicted these responses and turned around the situation but hanging around this guy sucks.

  38. Now I’m wondering if a study has been done if the post ovulating things women go thru, like menstrual cramps and emotional swings, are lessened if she views her partner as highly desirable.
    I’m picturing in my mind, maybe maybe due to a television influenced, that I just don’t see suburban beta types with the “where did that come from” look on their face after just being on the receiving end of a sudden vent from a woman.

  39. Funny, my current girl keeps telling me when she is on the blood… I just smile and say: “Thanks for the information.” But what is she trying to say?

  40. “Now I’m wondering if a study has been done if the post ovulating things women go thru, like menstrual cramps and emotional swings, are lessened if she views her partner as highly desirable.”

    Overshare alert.
    I used to have menstrual cramps that were debilitating. I’ve since given birth, and I can tell you it was very similar to giving birth. Literally hunched over, in the fetal position on the floor, unable to move.
    As soon as I started dating my husband I never had those type of cramps again. True story. I’ve never read anything about it, but it happened to me.

  41. Furthermore: I went on the pill for our honeymoon and immediately started getting angry at him for just about everything. I was on oral contraception for about two months before he threw the pills into the trash because they made me crazy and “we weren’t having sex anyway”. I’ve been happy and on even keel ever since I got off of them, and we get along very very well.

  42. @johngalt

    Good question.

    Rather than do what I would normally do (refer to some purple pill guy who uses the term “fitness tests” and piss off Rollo again), let me refer you to a video with poor audio quality, the guy in the video having a hoarse voice and annoying background noise and it is PUA based.

    This is Todd Valentine and he is explaining how to pass value shit tests vs. comfort shit tests. The gist is @the 8:30 and after in this video. It is all about elevating your game.

    @JohnGalt, she is subtly giving you a comfort shit test (because she is already into you) and you could do better than if you respond as if it is a value shit test (screening to see if you have enough value).

    And once again, I would point out this Game concept is fungible and needs to be calibrated for PUA game, serial monogamy, or married man game. It is all the same across different types of game. If you can act on the difference between comfort and value shit tests, you can become more masterful at game.

    And this is axiomatic because she is menstruating at the time and by definition needs comfort.

    It is a subtle, useful distinction and you want to pick up on that subcommunication. Be slightly nicer while still keeping frame, not being unsure, but not being a dickhead about it.

  43. I just realize this applies to Water Cannon Boy too after Liz just brought that up.

    Don’t you agree with the comfort test angle when a woman is menstruating, Liz?

    John Galts girl is already “into” him and his calibration could be improved in terms of how he responds.

  44. @scribblerG

    I don’t really have anything to add to your FR but just wanted to give you props for pushing yourself. It’s legitimately inspiring as fuck.

  45. I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, although I haven’t EXPRESSED it to her yet. She shit tested me this morning about not helping the kids get ready for school and I didn’t get mad or anything, but I’m sure she could tell I was irritated about it. I’m trying to push through it and be nonreactive (and I haven’t been reactive for at least the last two weeks) but my brain is like “Yeah, she’s doing that because SHE CAN’T STAND YOU and your lame beta ways you fucking BETA LOSER” and it’s getting fucking annoying lol.

  46. @Awakened One

    “Later the guy tells me that was very rude and that if she wasn’t at work she would’ve laid into me and that you talk to girls by giving them compliments (facepalm). Probably could’ve predicted these responses and turned around the situation but hanging around this guy sucks.”

    Gay, white knights are the worst.

  47. 101 observation on getting in PUA state:

    I am guessing it’s going to be easier for YaReally to get there because he’s 100% in on PUA. YaReally believes he will NEVER get laid being whatever the “real” YaReally started out as. He has no ego investment in the real YaReally. I don’t know what his job is, hobbies, etc., but apparently he can put those aside enough to be all in on game fairly often.

    Guys can get laid other ways, without airtight game. Even I have pulled that off. But then you have ego investment in the other ways. ScribblerG got a lot of lays the other ways, has a lot of ego investment in the other ways, so it may be harder for him to get to YaReally state on a regular basis.

    I think ego investment in a real life persona is natural for men. Men have to go out and make themselves men to survive and distinguish themselves from nothing men. Women don’t care about this as much as we’d like them to, but it’s still part of our programming. YaReally is gaming the system becuase he’s spending years on just the sex without any LTR or creating little YaReallys, which is what the sex is supposed to be about, so I think that’s a tough state for men to stay in. But I think I get more of the attitude now.

  48. “But women with their social media you could argue that it’s actually optimal for them to be obsessed with social media because they can land Justin Beiber if they put up the right Instagram pic of their ass. The problem is 99% of them won’t get Beiber but also won’t be satisfied with Joe Accountant because they think they CAN get Beiber”

    The most disturbing part of this is that girls are actually attracted to Beiber. lol. Yikes.

    “but in a traditional monoLTR? Not a chance. Tie half my assets and visitation of my children to her in that arrangement? lol fuck no.”

    “if you eat what society feeds you, then you are just going to think you’re a worthless piece of shit that needs to make a ton of money but enjoy none of it and accept a shiftless existence as a slave to your woman, to defer to her and her craziness in all ways and to never question anything about the world you live in.”

    Preach. This place keeps getting better and better.

  49. “I think ego investment in a real life persona is natural for men. ”

    Yeah, it’s a lot easier to say “I’m not my fucking khakis” when your khakis are ripped and have mustard stains and maybe only have one or two pairs. When you’re older and you have a whole closet full of really nice khakis, it’s a lot harder, because you’ve invested a lot of time and effort acquiring those khakis, and people have complimented you on them numerous times.

  50. @SJF – Dude, you are trying way too hard. Gambling and sales have nothing to do with each other. And The Gambler is Dostoevsky’s best work by my reckoning, in the sense of the story telling and character development, you and @Forge were discussing some of his work.That’s why I gave the reco – it had nothing to do with gambling per se. As an aside, I read it as part of my research when writing a novel that featured NYC and Recife Brazil poker rooms and players as a motif, but it was not a poker book. And the movie YaReally referenced was Revolver, not The Gambler. Sentient referenced the gambler. Like I said earlier on this thread, do try and keep up…

    Sales and poker are similar as they are both about strategy, psychology and probability – not gambling. Gamblers are guys who are hoping to get lucky. Given what you’ve said here, SJF, I’d sure love to play poker with you sometime as I love to play poker with guys who think poker is gambling…Bring a lot of money that you don’t need and I’ll teach you the difference.

  51. “Yeah, it’s a lot easier to say “I’m not my fucking khakis” when your khakis are ripped”

    It’s crazy to think how willingly I bought into all of it. Life just kind of sucks you in. It’s like that Talking Heads song. “And you may ask yourself Well…How did I get here?”

    I was so close to going down the other path it’s ridiculous… I read that David De’Angelo Double your Dating thing. Was introduced to my wife through social circle. Tried the cocky funny shit. Worked like gold. Crazy sex. Didn’t have enough self control to see her less than 3 times a week… Then she fell for me, like 3 months in. I’ll never forget that look in her eyes, like if I broke up with her she’d shatter into a million pieces. And I was like OHHH FUCK. And I KNEW whatever decision I made at that point was going to affect my entire life… And here I am. lol. C’est la vie.

  52. “I think ego investment in a real life persona is natural for men. ”

    Depends on the ego investment and what it is doing for you.

    If it’s fucking with your head and you’re like Jake Green in Revolver,,,,,,,,, or the Narrator (Ed Norton) in fight club who’s alter ego is a dick (not nice) but knows how to better advance the Narrators life strategy than the Narrator has any clue about, then yeah the ego might need to be killed (In fight club he kills his ego only after his ego convinced him to change to the correct strategy, ……I think).

    I personally have some good ego investments and built my kingdom with them. And life is pretty good for me on this side of my IP address.

    No shit, sherlock, ego investments are natural for men. When they are good ones. YaReally has some really good ones, I have good ones, ScribblerG had some great ones back in the GlennGarryGlenn Ross days (and Al Pacino’s character had some good one’s in that Mamet movie screenplay).

    Eliminate your bad ones and strengthen your good ones.

    Even Andy has some great ones (anti-social and narcissism-like ones) that are going to work great in his sexual strategy when his kids are old enough (when he’s 52 y.o.) and he can get some easy pussy on the side.

  53. @Bad Day – Great tips on push/pull. This is exactly what I need, something to use when I feel like I’m getting locked up. And of course, all that shit is FI and the weird part is Ya and you and everyone else here was spot on about “old man game”. The more I saw it this way, the worse my approaches and sets were going. Thinking being older was different somehow wrt game is a huge mental trap. It can affect getting IOIs and attraction but I’m always reading for attraction on my approaches etc. If there is no attraction, or I can’t build it, there is nothing to do. The girl in the cafe has been giving me IOIs for months. Every time I’m there when she is, she steals glances at me etc and smiles and I get that sparkly eye thing, you know it when you see it, you can feel it in your gut.

    @All older guys here – I want you to get something, please. I bet some of you think I’m pathetic or delusional or chasing a dream. Certainly most women here think that but I don’t give a fuck about that. I care about the other older guys here. I can tell you this, using soft sugar daddy game i got 20 somethings to fuck me in recent times. Not straight up cash, and I had some fucking wild sex at times with them. So, get that you can get a woman attracted and revved up as an older guy. Without being buff. I’ve already experienced that. I also get legit IOIs from these young hotties, and it’s due to DHV and the way I carry myself, not my looks. I project confidence and a certain wisdom/wordliness which is catnip to some young women. Remember who they are around all the time, low value, incompetent young men raised by women who have either no masculinity or that cheap “no fear, dude” version of it. Older guys with real masculine presence are intriguing to young women more so than ever. They have also been released from the social stigma of casual sex in general, so they feel much more free to flirt and connect with older men as well (isolating, escalating is more challenging due to the social standing issues).

    I approach all the time it’s instinctive now and here’s the most important thing about it. It’s not just about picking up girls, it’s helping me see through limiting beliefs that are much broader than just my sexuality. I’ve internalized being an older man as being defective, past it, not valued, written off etc in myriad ways and I’ve been lying to myself about it on top of that. This is why my motivation and progress on my Red Pill journey has been so all over the place – as PUAs and others would say, it’s all about my internals.

    I was kidding myself about even this – I didn’t even know I was doing this. Look at how I would talk about “old man game” – completely self destructive. How many of you older guys went along with it? How many of you have written yourselves off inside, as I have, and aren’t even honest with yourself about it?

    NB: While I may scuffle intellectually with @KFG, know that I have mad respect for him as an older man – hell, as a man, period. He has not succumbed to this negative self-image the way I have, and is much older than me, and does far more with what he’s got. I see him a role model in important ways for us older guys.

    A request. You old fuckers out there, like me, share here about what stops you from gaming the women you’d actually like to fuck. If you were to actually try, you’d find that it would affect your entire life, not just pussy. Get in the game with me, there is a huge amount of growth to be had. And some fine young ass as well…Even if you only fucked one 23 yr old spinner in 2016, would that not be worth it? Let me tell you, sinking your dick into a young hottie when you are in your 50s feels like you are plugging back into the life force or something. Just sayin’…

  54. “Old man’s game” is giving off the subcomm your wife really does have your balls in a Mason jar under the kitchen sink.
    .
    Game them all—covertly let them know they’d be lucky if you picked them for the night: Law 34: […] act like a king to be treated like one.

  55. SJF: “Don’t you agree with the comfort test angle when a woman is menstruating, Liz?”
    Yes I definitely agree with you.

    A word on “comfort tests” vs beta bait… A comfort test, a real one, is some assurance that you – THE PRIZE – are not leaving her, aka a Loyalty Test… I believe the tests here around menstruastion are actually beta bait… she wants you to do something for her in her frame at your expense (ultimately).

    If a dose of ALPHA is chick crack, blows her mind completely but they can get too much of it and ruin themselves… Beta Bait is sugary chocolate… they will nibble and nibble and then gorge on it with out stopping… they cannot control it and cannot stop. Of course once they get off that little sugar high they will be cranky and feel bloated.

    Proceed at your own risk with beta bait requests….

  56. Romance is hard to find:

    Katerina Lyadova is looking for love, but says work hardly leaves her time to swipe and type.
    As an experiment, Lyadova, the 30-year-old co-founder of a graphic-design company in Toronto, hired a part-time “dating profile manager” on Wednesday through an ad in the jobs section of Craigslist. …“If you find a match that leads to a meaningful relationship, you’ll get a bonus,” the ad promised. “If it turns into a real deal i’ll double the original bonus.” …
    Lyadova, who was born in Irkutsk, Siberia, and moved here to study visual art at Humber College in 2007, spent less than a year on matchmaking sites and apps before outsourcing the work.
    “When I was looking at my data usages from last year, I managed to swipe like three gigs on Tinder. I surprised myself,” she said.

    In the interest of gender balance, the article points out guys hire pros to improve their profiles:

    Eight years ago, the site’s founder, Scott Valdez, was working 70 to 80 hours a week at a new job at a tech start-up. It left him no time to chat up women online, so he looked for a dating assistant on Craigslist. He hired a creative writing grad, who was soon scheduling five or six dates a month. …
    Today, Virtual Dating Assistants has 240 clients, mostly men in North America, he said. In Toronto, the company has 19 subscribers, including two who signed up for its premium service.

    http://m.thestar.com/#/article/business/2016/01/28/woman-30-hires-dating-profile-manager-from-craigslist-to-help-her-find-romance.html

    For a 30 year old woman what could the “real deal” be?

    Bonus question, why does size matter for today’s newspaper “model”?

    http://storage.torontosun.com/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297798934784_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x

  57. Sribblerg

    “I shut that movie off after 10 mins when I tried to watch it. The excerpt above seemed pretty stupid and i turned it off halfway through so maybe I missed the point.”

    OK, maybe it’s not worth delving into but if anyone else is interested… the background to that clip, the final scene, the protagonist has exhausted all of his skill and resources and relationships in an effort to repay his gambling debt. He has one last chance, put everything on the line with one spin and win or face certain death. But he has evolved mentally to the point that for him “winning” is winning complete freedom OR complete annihilation. He is free either way.

    Freedom from his past habits, his programming, his searching, his entanglements – he is “all in” to emerge a new man with no history but that which he starts to write “today” – or he is extinguished completely…

    That is what I mean by going all in on YOU. Release everything utterly and start over. There is no longer any past. There is only today.

    In that vein Scribblerg I would go back to that coffee shop, amped to the max, order from that girl with strong laser eye, and when she hands you the receipt, tell her she forgot something, to write her number on it because you are going to grab a drink one night. (write it on the receipt will allow her to avoid social pressure in front of her co-workers).

    Enjoy!

  58. @dutchman

    “I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, ”

    Take space…. leave the house more, get some work outs in… hang out in coffee shops… go hit a bar… talk to everyone who sits next to you, with no agenda. watch some pretty young girls walk by…

    You need positive inputs… all this, plus time apart, will reduce your focus on your wife. let it go.

  59. @ScribblerG

    You are sub-communicating oldness. KFG is sub-communicating eternal youthful masculinity. 53 is not old. But it might seem so when you are fatigued from the battle.

    In answer to your direct request: “You old fuckers out there, like me, share here about what stops you from gaming the women you’d actually like to fuck. ” What stops me from fucking the woman I’d actually like to Game is less than masterful game. In other words, I think Game is all.
    (Fundamental game principles get me pussy with my wife, defined as she wants it, and murmers “harder”. …it’s good.) And I’ve been picking up a ton of stuff of stuff from the PUA guys for my married man game. But this is added to lots I had already mastered (including mindset). And obviously you can see what PUA game is doing for your mindset Scribbler. It’s wonderful.

    In real life my game is good and light years up on the learning curve. I’m starting to and have been “seeing the code” in the matrix.

    When I was so in-elegantly telling you to go out and make it all about the girl when gaming last week, HABD actually said it more elegantly last night with:

    “here’s some actionable intel for next coffee shop meet…for when you freeze up…
    you freeze…so, focus on HER about what YOU like/dislike (depending on whether you are pulling or pushing) about HER…”

    I see that working for me out in the field socializing and gaming because I have an abundance mentality. I’m not pressured to score pussy. I have it in hand at home. And the same push/pull that HABD described really is delightful when done with feminine women. It works. Who would have thought.

  60. “But he has evolved mentally to the point that for him “winning” is winning complete freedom OR complete annihilation. He is free either way.”

    Which reminds me of one of my earliest maxims:

    Either you will live through it, or you won’t. Either way, problem solved.

  61. @scribblerg

    “Thinking being older was different somehow wrt game is a huge mental trap.”

    true…it can even manifest itself like this…

    “It can affect getting IOIs and attraction”

    or this…

    “(isolating, escalating is more challenging due to the social standing issues).”

    ‘old man game’ is NO different that ‘game’…except maybe that it’s like playing a video game on the easy mode…(bc it’s a LOT easier for me to tell a girl to show me how she would pose for me if she was the playboy centerfold in a semi-crowded coffee shop with her two friends than one of her classmates…lol)

    getting those IOIs doesn’t change…and really ALL girls ping their environment ALL the time for ‘alpha’…their hindbrains are always on…

    if you are up for a ‘field trip’, go to a mall or some other space where you can sort of be anonymous (ie you can people watch) but don’t go to cold approach, just to observe. then, pick a cute girl (that’s not interacting with you) and try to count how many times she ‘pings’ her environment (see if you can spot these…make a list…not kidding…lol)…it’s trippy, bc that’s all her hindbrain/unconscious level stuff in play.

    “I want you to get something, please. I bet some of you think I’m pathetic or delusional or chasing a dream.”

    not even…and you are ahead of where i started, (if you don’t have any trouble opening on a cold approach… bc my f’kin hands were literally shaking with fear when i made my very first ‘street stop’ in the mall and asked that little old lady where the pet store was…no shit, i felt like somebody was going to shoot me in the back of the head…a pathetic 50 yo guy trying to learn how to talk to girls…you CAN’T get worse than that…)

    “I project confidence and a certain wisdom/wordliness which is catnip to ALL women.”

    fify…

    good luck!

  62. “KFG is sub-communicating eternal youthful masculinity.”

    Despite my above comments, age is basically a null concept to me and I have previously advised Scribbler to erase the concept from his mind.

    I’m not my age, I’m just me, who or whatever that happens to be at the time.

    I think last year was the first time in my life that I have, on my own, considered age, as it occurred to me that in the area of my athletic speciality the time is approaching when I’ll only be able to be top dog within some age restriction.

    I’m not my fucking khakis either, because I haven’t been able to find any. They’ve almost all actually been desert tan for some time, and a few years ago they even started calling olive khaki.

  63. @Dutchman

    “I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, although I haven’t EXPRESSED it to her yet.”

    she likely already knows…your subcomms will have told her…

    “She shit tested me this morning about not helping the kids get ready for school and I didn’t get mad or anything, but I’m sure she could tell I was irritated about it.”

    why would you be irritated that she wants to f’k?…serious question… (see Forge the Sky’s comment at jan 27 at 2:11pm…) ALL shit testing is a huge IOI…you just have to convert on it…lol

    now that you have giving her negative emotions covered…lol…you should start trying to lead her to good emotions (to start to build a roller coaster). this will also make it easier for her to accept your frame (bc she will be getting an emotional spike if she does…lol…)

    you: ‘hey, i was just thinking about something. tell me about one of your best memories from grade school/high school.”

    (now, she’s faced with a choice – give in to your frame (by accepting and responding to your question and get an emotional spike OR stay in her frame and give up the emotional spike…which do you think she will choose?…lol…she will try to shit test you bc getting an emotional spike/attention from ‘alpha’ is waaaaay better than one from beta…so, pass the shit test…lol)

    her: [some variation on ‘why?]

    you: ‘bc i want to know.’

    (then hold frame until she tells you…and when she does reward her with some positive attention…)

    you: ‘thanks. that was a really cool memory. i really liked you telling me that.’

    (note – if she doesn’t tell you, just be non-reactive and backturn her…and she’ll likely bring this up later…lol)

    “I’m trying to push through it and be nonreactive (and I haven’t been reactive for at least the last two weeks) but my brain is like “Yeah, she’s doing that because SHE CAN’T STAND YOU and your lame beta ways you fucking BETA LOSER””

    straight up FI in play…

    “and it’s getting fucking annoying lol.”

    aaaand there’s another layer of FI sliding away…good job!

    good luck!

  64. “Proceed at your own risk with beta bait requests….”

    Thanks for that clarification Sentient. A lot of this stuff is working for me. But at this time in my stages of mastery it is coming naturally to me (with some glimpses of the code). It helps that you spell it out more clearly.

    And this point you make is similar to avoiding The Female Stages of Manipulation of manipulations in the Joseph South book.

    But your distinction is very helpful at avoiding a trap that I actually have not fallen into (betatization) and hope others don’t also.

  65. And in regards to me actually asking LIZ how a man should treat a woman during shark week, bear with me. I was actually trying to set her up (blog game) with a compliance test. No disrepect to Liz. I love her intellectually and she has a cool husband.

    I wanted to set up the job description of a red pill woman in the company of mostly red pill men, (i.e. commenting on this blog). Part of the job description should be to actually be red pill and “spill the beans” or admit to psychological ploys women use in their sexual strategies. Of course most women don’t have a clue as to what is going on underneath their skullcaps in the hind, mid, and fore-brains. Liz being a certain type of personality and being in the comfort of a masculine male, is a good resource to fork over the knowledge of the ploys. If that is possible.

  66. “But your distinction is very helpful at avoiding a trap that I actually have not fallen into (betatization) and hope others don’t also”

    He he he… let’s just my experience in this area is hard won… ;(

  67. @SJF
    ” and she has a cool husband.”
    “Liz being a certain type of personality and being in the comfort of a masculine male, is a good resource to fork over the knowledge of the ploys.”

    If a women is not BPD or bat shit crazy, the personality of a woman is more a reflection of the men in her life.
    I have observed this in women, recently.

    As a rule of thumb , if the women is under tutelage of a strong/ high status / cool confident man then it reflects in the comfort in the women feels in all her interactions. It can be a strong father, brother,uncle, boyfriend or husband depending on the stage of life of female. By strong I mean strong in his/their frame of mind.

    Regardless of how much money or power a women has;
    Take that man/ those men away from her.
    Or the man does not provide any tingles or strong security, Liz becomes Emily.

    Remember the incident Rollo shared about the 49 year old gym employee wishing she was a couple like Mr and Mrs. T.
    Later on, Mrs. T shedding a tear of emotion and feeling thankful Mr. T is in here life.

    Also lets reflect on the situation about women pulling all stops to avoid getting dumped. They are not in imminent danger when they are getting dumped, but biological instincts are a lady.

    This also kind of explains why are European women in general going bat shit crazy. They are surrounded by emasculated men who do not provide any vibe of security to women.

  68. @HABD

    “why would you be irritated that she wants to f’k?…serious question… (see Forge the Sky’s comment at jan 27 at 2:11pm…) ALL shit testing is a huge IOI…you just have to convert on it…lol”

    Maybe I’m just retarded and can’t read the subcomms, but it REALLY didn’t seem like she wanted to fuck. Basically, I got up and took a shower and when I came downstairs she was in a huff about how I should have picked the kids clothes out for them and shouldn’t have showered because there was enough time and took them forever to find their own clothes and now they were going to be late (they weren’t running late, and she actually left to take them to school a bit earlier than she usually does). So THAT is her actually subcommunicating to me that she was turned on by the fact that I was “inconsiderate” and didn’t do domestic shit but instead just dealt with MYSELF? lol

    Fuck, this shit is crazy sometimes.

  69. @Dutchman

    “Maybe I’m just retarded and can’t read the subcomms, but it REALLY didn’t seem like she wanted to fuck.”

    that’s bc you are thinking like a man (logically) and listening to WHAT she says, rather than hearing what she ‘means’…

    “Basically, I got up and took a shower and when I came downstairs she was in a huff about how I should have picked the kids clothes out for them and shouldn’t have showered because there was enough time and took them forever to find their own clothes and now they were going to be late (they weren’t running late, and she actually left to take them to school a bit earlier than she usually does).”

    all (((I))) heard was “spank me, daddy!!!!…”…(notice the exclamation points)…lol…she must be ovulating…lol

    “So THAT is her actually subcommunicating to me that she was turned on by the fact that I was “inconsiderate” and didn’t do domestic shit but instead just dealt with MYSELF?”

    can you think of a MORE alpha frame?…lol

    “Fuck, this shit is crazy sometimes.”

    and FUN…don’t forget the FUN…lol

    good luck!

  70. @ Shiva

    “Regardless of how much money or power a women has;
    Take that man/ those men away from her.
    Or the man does not provide any tingles or strong security, Liz becomes Emily.”

    I doubt it. There is something quite unique about women like Liz. More likely they would become Ayn Rand or Hillary Clinton. It’s an INTJ thing, it’s not very often an attractive personality for the feminine, but it is a solid one in the intellect department. Emily was an intellectually retarded philosophy major churchian brat, clinging on to her FI social conventions while being socially retarded not to recognize the company she was keeping on this blog.

  71. Wow, that’s awesome. I’m def going to try to give her a positive emotional spike tonight.

    I’ve been spending time doing shit related to my hobbies every night this week, I wonder if that was a factor.

  72. @YaReally
    “lol she settled AT the scene, do you think she just whipped out $500k and that guy is buying a BMW to Uber in? “In his words, “…she was crying (and) said (she) was sorry for everything.” I don’t want to disclose the amount the driver was paid, but can say he could only use the money to pay his cellphone bill and maybeee his cable bill.” He basically took whatever cash she probably had on her because she’s blowing her student loans on shots at the bar (or rather her boyfriend did that night) so she can get wasted like that video.”

    500K might be too much but considering she belongs to a wealthy family, it might be in thousands at least. There might be some silent out of court settlement later.

    The Indian men of her family would spare no effort to save her. If not for her sake, then for the sake that she does not bring even more disrepute to the family. If the charges are pressed and she had to attend the court room being photographed with her would be her family.

    Suddenly instead of saying, “We got a doctor in our family” , it would be “We got a convict in our family”
    In the next gathering of Indians, her family will be overtly and covertly bombarded with this incident by all near and dear relatives.
    It will be a big loss of their social capital.

    Her sisters and female cousins can kiss any arranged marriages with well to do Indians goodbye.
    In arranged marriages, well settled(married) elder sisters are a barometer of the younger ones would be.
    Its generally would be assumed that if she behaved this crazy then her sisters would also be more or less the same. Not worth it.

  73. “More likely they would become Ayn Rand or Hillary Clinton.”

    I just used Liz to Emily very generally. So do not disagree.

    “It’s an INTJ thing, it’s not very often an attractive personality for the feminine, but it is a solid one in the intellect department”

    When you got a tiger chasing you, or you got a sore tooth for a week, how much of INTJ reflection is possible?

    Would bet that Liz does not have the insecurities and daily stresses that single women face daily. Hence she can have some focus.

  74. “My example was real world, but closer to an ideal model, i.e. less complicated than human social interaction, which includes elements of chance.”

    lol well i haven’t won the chess championship, you and i both don’t know if playing the same chess game from that HYPOTHETICAL chess win would result in a loss in future HYPOTHETICAL championships…so it’s just two made up statements by you referring to a situation that doesn’t exist, i.e. a hypothetical, capped off with a hard RULE based on nothing “that’s just how shit works.”

    and this RULE was WRONG: chess probably does HAVE a PERFECT GAME.

    “I stipulate that the rules of a game are the rules of the game. I am not playing fizbin. I have introduced no rules.”

    ok you saying that old guys can’t get away with sloppy game like young guys isn’t a rule? you saying all this shit about how you have these rules about what you let in and what you won’t let in also aren’t rules? this hypothetical rule you just listed and capped off with ‘that’s just how shit works’ isn’t also a rule?

    “Do you know what an environment is?”

    do you? everyone lives in the same universe therefore they’re all experiencing the same environment. their interpretations (such as yours) of the same shit may differ, though.

    you’re not making much sense. so far you’re just making these pronouncements that are very muddy.

  75. Scray to KFG: “you’re not making much sense. so far you’re just making these pronouncements that are very muddy.”

    If KFG were either fucking with you or just being enigmatic, if you just took it as a shit test (a guy in a forum group testing your mettle) then you know how to proceed.

    And ScribblerG

    “January 28th, 2016 at 6:31 am
    @SJF – Dude, you are trying way too hard.”

    I do that on occaision. It’s called pressure of speech. I’m not fearful of my weaknesses (which are considerable) or getting into the arena. I blame it on someone not telling me this shit 20 years ago and teaching myself poorly on certain things (but well on most things).

    My post @9:48PST last night was in reference to how much fun and exciting and useful this stuff really is. Perhaps I’m inventing things in my mind. But they are good things and I’m having fun.

    And I think I’m starting to sound like KFG on occaision. A very poor sounding KFG.

  76. @scribblerg

    ya as long as you’re just getting out there and looking for your opportunities, you’re going to get better.

    the unfortunate thing is that like, you’ll start seeing all the opportunities you get every day. the one you have right now is just like….well like I said, X-rated and obvious. but you’ll start seeing all the others, too.

    and there’s just too many of them
    and if you don’t act soon enough, they evaporate.

    ex:

    at my gym there’s a cute girl. a little while ago, she was talking to this guy. a half-chad looking fellow. and in my mind i’m like ‘lol so x-rated, she’s just throwing herself at him and he doesn’t even kno….man, guys like that have it so easy and have no idea.’

    to the normal eye, they were just talking and she was just talking about stuff with him. but i knew.

    but then, i thought about it for a sec….
    she started saying ‘hi’ to me, which i said ‘hi’ back to.
    for awhile she’d say stuff like ‘oh did you miss me?’ when i’d see her
    whenever she’d pass by me, she’d tap me on the arm or whatever
    whenever she was around me she’d sing along to the song on the radio
    if she was across the room, she’d do that shit too, to get my attention and smile and laugh

    in all these situs, i would just sit there and politely smile back or whatever like a chode….i was just tired after work or focused on going out AFTER the gym or whatever.

    so after these thoughts i was like ‘lol what a SLOOOOOT…just throwing herself at every guy coming through here.’

    ahahah not really, but i mean, i still sort of chode out sometimes. granted, it’s mostly because there are SO MANY OPPORTUNITIES. after work, after the weekend, with your fbs, you’re still only one man. can’t fuck everyone who wants to fuck you….you just can’t. ;D

  77. ” . . . chess probably does HAVE a PERFECT GAME.”

    Show me a proof. Not hand waving over statistics. Proof. You can start with something simple like white advantage.

    “everyone lives in the same universe therefore they’re all experiencing the same environment.”

    “you saying that old guys can’t get away with sloppy game like young guys isn’t a rule?”

    Yes. Just as white to win isn’t a rule.

    Therefore I’d better reread Wheeler’s Gravitation and Tassoul’s Theory of Rotating Stars before I go out for a quart of milk, lest I have missed something and come to grievous harm.

    Do you know what “precision” is?

    Or are you claiming a homogeneous universe?

    Once upon a time a person educated enough to know better told me that humans could survive on a particular planet, because the average temperature was survivable.

    I had to point out to him that you don’t have to survive the average. You have to survive the extremes.

    Go try your best game on a female bear or salmon.

  78. @kfg

    “Show me a proof. Not hand waving over statistics. Proof. You can start with something simple like white advantage.”

    you made the hypothetical claim and you stated it as a fact…there is a possible counter-example that i brought up that smashes it as stated. no need for anything else. you made the claim. it isn’t supported by anything but your own insistence.

    which applies to all your other claims.
    which is fine…and realizing this would be good for you. but….

    “Yes. Just as white to win isn’t a rule.”

    what you said does meet the definition of a rule…several senses of the word.


    you don’t want to realize this for whatever reason. you want to play pretentious grabass by asking obtuse bullshit like:

    “Or are you claiming a homogeneous universe?”

    it’s a fucking rock whether a 16 y/o guy is standing next to it or an 80 y/o guy is standing next to it.

    “Go try your best game on a female bear or salmon.”

    and you keep on with obtuse irrelevant stuff…

  79. @SJF

    “If KFG were either fucking with you or just being enigmatic, if you just took it as a shit test (a guy in a forum group testing your mettle) then you know how to proceed.”

    since he’s not a chick i want to bang, i think i’ll just treat him like a man and give him an honest chance to state whatever it is he’s trying to say clearly and concisely. like a man.

  80. “it’s a fucking rock whether a 16 y/o guy is standing next to it or an 80 y/o guy is standing next to it.”

    And now we know one of the limits of your mindset.

    “and you keep on with obtuse irrelevant stuff…”

    Go try it on the bear, then tell my stuff is irrelevant.

  81. @scray
    “at my gym there’s a cute girl. a little while ago, she was talking to this guy. a half-chad looking fellow. and in my mind i’m like ‘lol so x-rated, she’s just throwing herself at him and he doesn’t even kno….man, guys like that have it so easy and have no idea.’ ”

    This is what guys who don’t go out enough don’t get. When I say all those good-looking dudes are usually chodes with shitty game it’s not that the girl is grabbing their dick in the bar and they’re pushing her off, she’s just doing things that are VERY CLEARLY throwing herself at him when you know what to look for, but the guy is oblivious or not in the right headspace and fucks up taking the window she’s giving him and she shuts down and bails or she WANTS him to fuck her or make out with her, and he just gets her number to go on a date (and then she flakes).

    Because why WOULD they know the signals to look for? They get enough girls saying “hello” that they don’t have to look deeper. But a “hello” doesn’t mean shit if you don’t have the game to take that to an actual lay. That’s why I say looks are great for some free “gimme” Approach Invites and opens but that’s it, from there you’d better have some game and realize that that gimme means “I WANT TO FUCK YOU” not “I’m just a friendly girl feeling your bicep”.

    It’s MINDBLOWING how many of these dudes will get what to ME would be guaranteed lays, and drop the ball completely because they just never learned game.

    Meanwhile a guy like Scray, me, Tyler, etc we aren’t going to get as many free gimmes (tho we still get them, esp if we’re DHV’ing) but we learn how to take every free gimme we get to the end zone while the guy who’s banking on his looks basks in female attention but doesn’t know what to do with it and often ends up banging average to ugly girls who were just super aggressive and made all the moves (since he doesn’t need game for that).

    It’s rare that a good-looking dude with zero game gets like a 9 walking up to him, opening him, and aggressively pushing it all the way to sex for him. It happens, but a guy is MUCH better off in terms of consistency/efficiency spending his time learning game.

    If you have the free time to balance gym AND game, cool, but every night you stay in and hit the gym or are too sore/tired to go out or pass up an invite to go out so you can avoid bad food and keep your 12% bodyfat etc, you’re a night behind where your game could be at.

    @kfg
    “Go try your best game on a female bear or salmon.”

    lol

    “what do you think of this pickup concept?”
    “I think the sky is blue”
    “what? I have no idea what we’re talking about, you got all cryptic.”
    “Exactly. The limitations of your mindset.”
    “…what??”
    “Try raping a female salmon.”
    “ooookay”

    We’re not making fun of you, you just literally aren’t making sense. I’m sure you have some kind of point but you’re trying to paint it in woowoo nonsense to try to sound mystical or whatever and we’re saying dude just say what the fuck you mean to say.

    You’re acting like this guy and it’s silly lol:

  82. @kfg

    “And now we know one of the limits of your mindset.”

    lol no that’s my line. and when i said it it made sense

    https://theywilltryandclaimyou.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/tumblr_na8wjacrqv1qbh20ko1_500.gif

    “Go try it on the bear, then tell my stuff is irrelevant.”

    dude, you started talking about how old guys can’t get away with sloppy game like young guys can, then you talked about chess, now you’re talking about female bears.

    ya….i’m gonna go ahead and say that AS OF RIGHT NOW, the scrayvestigation has concluded that there just isn’t any substance to what you’re trying to say.

    try again later

  83. @YaReally, Scray

    Hey can you guys take a look at my post on the previous page re: wife giving me shit this morning. HABD says that it was a clear IOI/she wanted me to fuck her but like I’m having a hard time internalizing that because it didn’t feel like that AT ALL at the time lol.

  84. “We’re not making fun of you . . .”

    I never thought you were.

    ” . . . you just literally aren’t making sense.”

    I’m making more sense than Tyler Durden in Fight Club. Why did Tyler Durden do and say the things he did?

    “Try raping a female salmon.” – Ya Really; Not KFG

    We all live in the same universe. The universe operates by consistent rules. A female salmon is a member of a sexually reproducing, dimorphic species. You are a member of a sexually reproducing, dimorphic species.

    Ergo, you should be able to game the salmon for a lay.

    I predict you won’t. Why? Well, for starters, the salmon, operating under the same universal laws and thus the same sexual laws as you – don’t fuck.

    Because under the same set of rules effective strategies and tactics are highly contextual.

    A 16 year old, drop out pothead looks at a rock and sees just a rock. An 80 year old engineer looks at a rock and may not see a rock at all.

    What the rock “is” is highly contextual.

  85. Dutch

    “Because it just felt like she was nagging me.”

    Do yourself a favor, instead of relying on the internet… try it! Build your own reference experience… You need to.

    Take her by the hand to the bedroom and go for it. See what happens…

    BTW HABD is right. Cats are not dogs!

Speak your mind

%d bloggers like this: