Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kfg
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” . . . this is just self-limiting stuff.” I work to limit myself to what I want. Are you under the impression that I’m implying older men can’t get young women? I’ve mentioned a number of times that I have to be careful, because women who open me not infrequently turn out to be under the limit. “”every man is capable of fucking any woman.” But every man is not capable of fucking every woman the same way at the same time. ” . . .only somewhat works for people who naturally ‘LOOK’ like those archetypes.” http://therationalmale.com/2016/01/25/ovulation-dread/#comment-137443 “it works… Read more »

Blaximus
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Ya… The bouncer guy you keep referring to? That was me. I bounced in a strip club for 5 years.

I’m not sure what scray means about closed circles and horsing around. This is why I say we are coming at the subject from waaayyy different perspectives. I am talking about wider circles…not people who know each other or something..

Guys calling 6 guys…wha?? Vin diesel??

I’m confused about what you guys mean, so I’m gonna leave it alone now.

scray
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@kfg

” Are you under the impression that I’m implying older men can’t get young women?”

no, but you literally just said that older men can’t get away with sloppy game the way younger men can. the field doesn’t bear this out.

“But every man is not capable of fucking every woman the same way at the same time.”

based on what, exactly? how do you know that every single woman doesn’t want to be fucked in the same way at the same time by you?

Sun Wukong
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@Blaximus While I agree guys need to learn to fight, part of learning it is learning what’s worth fighting over and what isn’t. Fighting a drunk dipshit with a bad attitude because his Game sucks and yours doesn’t? Not worth it. Calm him down, enjoy the rest of your evening. I’ve even managed to do it basically every time without once implying that 1) I’d lose 2) I’m scared or 3) anybody needs to lose face. YaReally’s technique is a little different than mine, but his objective is exactly the same as mine: don’t ruin a good evening with a… Read more »

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“. . . it’s the perception that they SHOULD have actualized this that is the attractant in comparison to younger guys who haven’t, nor would really be expected to.”

This. Which doesn’t change the game, but it does change the tactics.

” – exactly what women are looking for in a phase of life where their sexual marketability declines . . .”

Although I try to limit myself to what I want and this is over my limit.

YaReally
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@Blaximus “This is why I say we are coming at the subject from waaayyy different perspectives.” Yes, your perspective is old and outdated. That’s not an insult that’s just reality. Unless your stripclub bouncer days were the last 5 years lol You know how we keep talking about how all this social media and smartphone shit has changed things in 2016 with girls? Well guys have changed too. You see how I COMPLETELY give no fucks about your “manly fighting honor code” and just completely ridicule it? Like how I have ZERO “sense of honor as a man” and all… Read more »

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“I’m not sure what scray means about closed circles and horsing around.”

i mean that’s where fighting takes on the ‘personal’ nature you’re describing.

out in the world no one gives a fuck about you. no one cares about getting personal.

this isn’t Bushido-land, man. it’s real.

the guys i kno are tough guys. some compete. fighters.

and ALL OF THEM has the same exact attitude about fighting. they will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS just walk away first and ONLY fight if they literally CANNOT get away or run away.

Sentient
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@A Boy’s Guide Well at least your handle is honest… really it amazes me here, CH everywhere young guys, always the young guys, actively arguing against the endless reality 40-50 even 60 YO guys are posting on a regular basis about pulling women 20-30-35 years younger them? Your post is pure KJ stuff. Reality is real. Get over it. Young girl older guy, It’s not common only because guys are not even trying or half assing it when they do try a little bit. Believe me, when you are 40 – 50 – 60 and have some game you are… Read more »

kfg
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@”based on what, exactly?”

When I walk into a room full of under age girls I don’t know only some of them throw themselves at me, or any other man.

Win the chess world championship, then play the exact same game every time subsequently, and you will never win another game. Because that’s the way shit works.

There is no “perfect” game.

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SJF,

From a red pill father of a 14 year old type 1 son, thank you for disclosing the condition. It adds even more value to your already high credibility in my book. You and several others on here do so much for so many.

kfg
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@Scray: Betas pick fights because they have something to prove. Alphas avoid fights because they have something to lose.

Blaximus
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@Sun I agree fully with your take. Maybe it’s just that I’ve dealt with a different caliber of asshole. Ya seems to be talking more along the lines of a guy ” posturing “. I’m talking about a guy that’s made up his mind to take things to blows. I get defusing. In my bouncer days I’ve never had to punch anyone. Not in 5 years. ” Why do you think by their 20s, 30s, or hell even 40s they still haven’t learned? They aren’t going to. Assholes gonna asshole; giving them a fight is just giving them what they… Read more »

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@kfg “When I walk into a room full of under age girls I don’t know only some of them throw themselves at me, or any other man.” that doesn’t mean they don’t want to be fucked by you in a certain way at a certain time — the same way as the girls who throw themselves at you do, even. “Win the chess world championship, then play the exact same game every time subsequently, and you will never win another game. Because that’s the way shit works.” if chess were solved, if you played that exact game you’d win every… Read more »

YaReally
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@kfg
“This. Which doesn’t change the game, but it does change the tactics.”

The tactics don’t change. The tactics that the old man is executing are the tactics that the young guy is SUPPOSED to be executing. The old man isn’t running DIFFERENT game, he’s running PROPER game. The young guys are running the same game but missing bits and pieces of it, but the old man isn’t learning some different style of game. It’s all the same shit, he just gets less leeway with being sloppy running the same game that everyone SHOULD be running.

Blaximus
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… Just for the record Ya, I LIVE in Blood, Crip and Latin King territory, with a little MS13 thrown in for good measure.

Lol at the ” I don’t know what it’s like ” meme man.

YaReally
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@Blaximus “so they won’t be around to arrest me if I put somebody to sleep.” I don’t know what the bar scene was like in your day but these days the Gang Suppression unit walks through the crowd to remind everyone they’re around and there are multiple cop cars parked outside clubs/bars the second half of the night, espeically at last call when most fights go down as people pile outside and release their frustrations on that guy who was a dick to them earlier etc. “I grew up in the inner city before guns became the go to method… Read more »

Blaximus
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@Scray- I figure out that no one gives a fuck about me at age 10.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/64880330.jpg

YaReally
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@Blaximus
“I’m talking about a guy that’s made up his mind to take things to blows.”

Did that guy just materialize out of thin air angry? Just a fucking magician poofing in front of the guy pissed off and ready to punch him?

No. You’re skipping over the ENTIRE BUILD-UP to that situation that could have been diffused or avoided a dozen different ways. But usually isn’t because guys listen to man-up advice that gets them into that situation where the other guy has made up his mind to take things to blows.

Blaximus
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” I don’t know what the bar scene was like in your day but these days the Gang Suppression unit walks through the crowd to remind everyone they’re around and there are multiple cop cars parked outside clubs/bars the second half of the night, espeically at last call when most fights go down as people pile outside and release their frustrations on that guy who was a dick to them earlier etc.”

Lol. Gang Suppression unit???

Like I said….

My day is 1/27/2016. I ain’t under any rock.

scray
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oh lawd
well i assume you figured out you aren’t blade or bulletproof too, so it’s your muthafucken set and your philosophy.

Blaximus
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“o. You’re skipping over the ENTIRE BUILD-UP to that situation that could have been diffused or avoided a dozen different ways. But usually isn’t because guys listen to man-up advice that gets them into that situation where the other guy has made up his mind to take things to blows.” And VIOLA!!! there’s the disconnect. Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it. No buildup. No real conversation. Different experiences in life. Angry guys are out there man..lol. they don’t just appear out of thin air. Stay close… Read more »

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And VIOLA!!! there’s the disconnect. Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it. No buildup. No real conversation. Viola is an instrument. Voila is the exclamation you’re looking for. And for the record that wasn’t the kind of situation that came up. Yollo specifically asked about dealing with dudes that get pissed and make it clear they’re itching to fight. Dudes that just walk up and clobber you are another matter altogether, and in all honesty you don’t really get a chance to defuse OR fight those guys.… Read more »

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@Blaximus “Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it.” Most of those guys you can spot a mile away and stay away from. And like I’ve said if you get sucker-punched, cool, defend yourself. But I stand by my assertion that the vast VAST majority of fights in a bar can be avoided. “Stay close to your Gang Suppression Units.” Will do. I legitimately hope you never end up in the hospital and always make it home safe. I’d like that outcome for the guys out there trying… Read more »

Culum Struan
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YaReally HABD Sun Wukong and all the other guys – thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. Some responses to various people below, and also some more FRs coming up later from the rest of the week. LOL@ HABD’s Star Trek clip. That was hilarious. Update on 38 yr old Tinder 6: Entirely unsurprisingly she has sent me a text saying “thanks for the drink, but I don’t think we are looking for the same thing..a few years ago I’d have totally been your girl..but now I’m not that girl anymore..” Job now removed from the Tinder profile. Tinder’s not a… Read more »

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Older men are judged even more harshly than younger men because they are expected to have even more success, even more achievements, even more money, simply by virtue of having been on the planet longer. Plus, there are the questions a woman might have. If he’s never been married, she might wonder why. Is there something wrong with him. If he’s divorced, are there children. Does she want to get involved with someone who has kids, etc. yes, and then they want to see his bank statement, investment profile, medical history, psych profile, career history, job appraisals, and criminal record.… Read more »

YaReally
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Man, don’t fuck with the internet lol:

http://anjaliramkissoon.org/

Sun Wukong
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@YaReally

Hahah, oh wow. That’s rather amazing.

SJF
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@hamster_wrestler Thanks man. I got “lucky” that my pancreas only conked out 24 1/2 years ago. On my last recent retinal exam, the Ophthalmologist found absolutely nothing. Which I find fucking amazing. A buddy of mine who retired from PhD. biology research on continuous glucose monitoring, islet cell transplants and insulin delivery is trying to tell me I’m living too close to my edge without having a continuous monitor. Perhaps I am. I’m going to get one. (That was at a year end deer hunting party where I related my story of being at my hunting cabin in the middle… Read more »

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@Shiva – Doctors are the guys who couldn’t hack the math to become engineers. That’s why so many women are flooding the field now.

A Boy's Guide
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Hey, Sentient. Kate here. Well, some of the comments really seem like the flip side of the feminist women who tell divorced women with children that her past doesn’t affect her dating prospects. That both isn’t true and makes the woman feel like more of a failure when the reality is she truly has a lower SMV than the feminist thinks she does. My own experience was that an eleven year age gap was not enough. A co-worker recently had a 40th birthday, and I was like, damn, this summer was my husband’s 60th! My co-worker seems like a child… Read more »

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PS – Scray and YaReally (and others, but this just occurred to me reading Scray’s comments to scribblerg) – it’s *incredibly* beneficial in this kind of FR for people like me and scribblerg etc to be told “you didn’t imagine that, she DID like you..you should have pulled the trigger”. Because as I said in a previous post, learning to see the IOIs is one thing..learning to trust them and act on them is even harder. I’m just starting to develop some trust of those instincts now in the last month or two but that’s why this kind of confirmation… Read more »

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@Sray: “if chess were solved . . .” If wishes were horses . . . ” . . . your mindset is fucking you over, mang.” I accept that rejecting 34 year old single mothers reduces my absolute number of lays. I do not accept that that in any way fucks me over. They aren’t what I want. What fucked me over was my mindset when I was in my 20’s. @Ya Really: Good game is what gets you what you want. Two players may both be playing WoW, but what gets them what they want will be different, because… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Culum

Best way to catch IOIs in the moment that I’ve found is to assume the sale.

scray
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“If wishes were horses . . .” lol it was a hypothetical to begin with, dude… “I do not accept that that in any way fucks me over” k sure it’s possible that you’re one of the outliers who has these limiting beliefs that ONLY apply to shit like FAT CHICKS or BPD chicks or whatever/whoever else….and it’s also possible that those limiting beliefs also extend out to 2/10 pointy elbow shit and justify failing to take action like they do on most dudes your age and younger. just the way you’re approaching this whole thing. too many rules logic… Read more »

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@ScribblerG “Doctors are the guys who couldn’t hack the math to become engineers. That’s why so many women are flooding the field now.” It is interesting that women are being encouraged to enter STEM fields (and you all in those fields know how that is going) and doctoring. It is true that the feminine brain can be trained to think logically and perform in these fields. But I’ve seen enough solipsism in the field to know that I will never be be seen by a woman physician, Ramkissoon or not, because their nature is less attuned to what is best… Read more »

YaReally
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@Culum Struan “a few years ago I’d have totally been your girl..but now I’m not that girl anymore..”” That’s the indication that what you did was solid. She knows she would’ve fucked you when she was younger etc with the moves you were pulling at the end there, but her survival/replication shit is way too solid at her age for her to risk getting involved and catching feelings for you and shit. She needs a beta bucks ASAP. That’s why I say what you did would’ve worked on a younger chick. It was solid Attraction game. That’s why I want… Read more »

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@Scray: “it was a hypothetical to begin with, dude…” My example was real world, but closer to an ideal model, i.e. less complicated than human social interaction, which includes elements of chance. “too many rules” I stipulate that the rules of a game are the rules of the game. I am not playing fizbin. I have introduced no rules. “the hot chick a 21 year old man talks to is the SAME hot chick a 60 year old guy talks to.” Do you know what an environment is? Ya Really: “Today I learned rape is good game.” We can all… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Ya, Scray, KFG, Sentient, Culum, Razor (? lost track, was Razor one?) and some others I’m sure – HOLY FUCK. In no particularly order: No more “old man game”. That landed, done and dusted. And yes, Ya, it was becoming an identity and getting worse not better the more I gamed. But I’ve had other experiences like this with limiting beliefs and you guys hit the exact KO. She did want to fuck me, She’s done that several times and I haven’t been able to get her in close because she’s working. Today was the acid test for me cuz… Read more »

A Boy's Guide
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Of course you do, YaReally. You are completely steeped in the culture. You’re an MPUA. Old school. I like to guess people’s ages based on their writing. I’m placing you within one or two years on either side of forty. You’ve technically passed the wall, but your effervescence is what consistently wins you friends and women. Nobody likes to admit that there are such things, but you *are* a special snowflake. You are the pick up poster child. You’ve overcome things and you commendably consistently engage in virtual missionary work to help others. While I certainly believe a person can… Read more »

YaReally
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@Kate
“While I certainly believe a person can improve, I don’t believe that improvement is limitless.”

Of course you don’t, you’re a woman. That’s why men built civilization while women told them to “just lay down” lol

“Age is one of those limiting factors one runs up against. I’m all for everybody becoming the best version of themselves, but I think it is unwise for men or women to harbor and propagate delusions about the reality of the SMP.”

There are plenty of 50+ guys fucking young poon. You’d just rather they went for women your age.

scribblerg
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@Hollen – This one is for you bud…
http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/wp-content/uploads/socialismo-cc.jpg

@Kate – Sure, let’s listen to you sweetie. I mean, you are an expert in pickup who’s helped dozens or maybe hundreds or even maybe thousands of guys bang young hotties. Methinks you are actually expressing a bit of “buyer’s remorse” actually. But then again, you locked down a colossal loser and faux alpha, it only makes sense you’d be second guessing and looking to upgrade. Hanging about here with a sock account looking for tingles, yep, sounds about right.

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@scribblerg “No more “old man game”. That landed, done and dusted. And yes, Ya, it was becoming an identity and getting worse not better the more I gamed. But I’ve had other experiences like this with limiting beliefs and you guys hit the exact KO.” Good man. Your ego will fuck with you FOREVER. Even when you escape it you’ll build an ego around being free of it…”look how enlightened I am, not like these OTHER plebs all trapped in their ego, I’M free of MY ego” lol Revolver is an interesting take on a guy fighting his own ego… Read more »

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(in that first scene he spends the whole movie with claustrophobia scared to take elevators (takes the stairs all the time) and he’s decided to confront his fear/ego/identity and step into the elevator doing what his ego doesn’t want him to do…this is kind of what some guys go through with Approach Anxiety which is basically pushing yourself to do what your ego doesn’t want you to do)

kfg
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P.S.: “Today I learned rape is good game.”

How radical are you prepared to be, Mr. Really?

stuffinbox
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@scribblerg
‘havent been able to get her in close cause shes working”
Try writing in a match book meet me at the pullman for a drink at 7.just slip it to her this is private and non commital.

YaReally
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@scribblerg Beauty, found the apology scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWct5xpyJk8 This is him forcing his ego to do things that might hurt it (feeling like a bitch, getting rejected by a cafe girl) or hurt his identity (“I’m a guy who doesn’t apologize to scumbags” “I’m a player who never gets rejected”) and a representation of the pushback that happens when you kill your ego. Most guys aren’t playing to win, they’re playing to “not lose”, because their ego wants to protect itself from being shaken. How can you be this badass player who banged all these girls when you were younger if… Read more »

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@Ya Really: “I legitimately have no idea what you’re saying anymore lol”

The limits of your mindset.

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@kfg
lol no you’ve just gone way into cryptic woowoo territory. Explain your point better.

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@scribblerg @Yareally

I guess it’s movie time, some good ones here. I’ll throw one in for you…

Are you ready, really ready, to go “all in” on Scribblerg? Because until you are nothing else will work…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE_2VEWvEH8

Great movie if you watch closely…

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@YaReally “a few years ago I’d have totally been your girl..but now I’m not that girl anymore..”” That’s the indication that what you did was solid. She knows she would’ve fucked you when she was younger etc with the moves you were pulling at the end there, but her survival/replication shit is way too solid at her age for her to risk getting involved and catching feelings for you and shit. She needs a beta bucks ASAP. I caught an almost identical line from Beer Bottle Chick’s friend that I was hitting on. Like she had the wryest grin she… Read more »

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@kfg@YaReally
Rape isn’t good game . They are currently passing laws to make good game rape.

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@A Fake Boy’s Life LOL – GeishaKate… Did not recognize this Boy’s Life gambit… seriously nothing has fucked up more men (and boys) then well intentioned advice from solipsistic projection prone women (sisters, Moms, Aunts, etc.) Seriously if there was a Manosphere Legal Support Fund, I would petition for an injunction shutting down your site… Why oh why can’t you just write for women? “However, I could not name anyone that I know personally who has a husband 23 years older, which is how I arrive at the conclusion that they are not that common.” Solipsism in action… so “you”… Read more »

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For the first time that I’ve ever read one of Rollo’s post I can skip the comments (temporarily) and jump right into the comment box. I get it. Where I might lack in game and it’s overt arts used in social settings this is an aspect of an LTR that is naturally easy to comprehend. For me it’s because I’ve paid very close attention to the cycle of the women I’m in an LTR with and have seen these types of behaviors month after month. If you’re not consistently around the same group(s) of women it’s much more difficult to… Read more »

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@Stuffinbox: Laws are part of the environment of game, not part of the rules of game. The Rape of the Sabine Women was fantastic game that founded an empire. One of the elements of good game strategy is to only break the laws you intend to break. Al Capone got nailed for tax evasion. The DC Madam only got nailed for promoting prostitution, because she kept meticulous books and paid her taxes. Her game was better than Capone’s. The guys who got nailed for a night time store robbery because they drove away from the scene with their headlights off… Read more »

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@roused

“There are dozens of cues to look out for with her emotions, body language, perfume, dress, even the panties she has chosen to wear.”

Actually just look at the lunar phase… women are on a 28 day cycle like the moon… a very large portion synch to the full moon…

or just check the trash can for tampon wrappers… LOL

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@Sentient – Played some pretty serious high stakes and tourney poker, one could have called me semi-pro at a certain point. Emotion and ego and confidence are the enemy of good poker. All other games are losers in which you have a negative expectation over time. Psychology, strategy and probability are the tools of the poker player. Shoving a bunch of money onto a roulette table and betting it on black is sheer idiocy and best left to movies… @Ya – As I’ve explained in longer form, my ego buffers and delusions had become huge and I didn’t even realize… Read more »

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@Scribbleberg

“@Sentient – Played some pretty serious high stakes and tourney poker, one could have called me semi-pro at a certain point. Emotion and ego and confidence are the enemy of good poker. All other games are losers in which you have a negative expectation over time. Psychology, strategy and probability are the tools of the poker player. Shoving a bunch of money onto a roulette table and betting it on black is sheer idiocy and best left to movie”

That scene is not at all about maximizing your gambling take…. LOL

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Add to that what SJF wrote:

“Relying on dread? The trick is to not rely on dread because you, the man, is so good that she is the one generating dread. So you don’t have to.”

Dread is a tool to be used carefully with timing and subtlety. Overuse anything and it becomes less effective. I find it best applied when I want monkey sex.

If you suck at being a man and she isn’t attracted to your masculine qualities and how you carry yourself (frame) then don’t expect her to respond.

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@Sentient

Yes, the lunar phase can be used as well, but not as a single element. I don’t need to rummage around looking for tampons. I know her cycle very well, all phases. The moon and astrology as mentioned last week are like crack. Who needs dread? Just get a pack of Tarot cards out during a full moon. LOL

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Hey YaReally, can you let Lumpy know that whatever Rollo did recently to the comments section code, it broke the shit out of YaReally Archive’s ability to grab new stuff?

YaReally
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@scribblerg “My only advantage? I’ve had to work through so much other mental and egoic and attitudinal shit in my life before that I’m fine with doing so in this area. I’m committed to this and am actually enjoying this all in a way.” That’s why I’m not worried about you. You’ll be fine. Just keep putting in the work and trust the process. And ya it’s the same mentality as your cold calling approach, just apply it to girls. RSD uses the Best Buy analogy: imagine you walk into Best Buy to buy a new big screen TV. You… Read more »

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@Sentient – I shut that movie off after 10 mins when I tried to watch it. The excerpt above seemed pretty stupid and i turned it off halfway through so maybe I missed the point. As for “all in” – I only shove my whole stack in when I’m incredibly favored and know I’m ahead, and doing so is likely to induce a call or shove an opponent off a weak hand (and I’ll bluff like that in only incredibly rare situations because my edge is big enough that I don’t need to take that kind of risk). But then… Read more »

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Rollo, what you wrote in comments at 8:41am on Jan. 26 was a perfect followup to your post. The anti-seductive aspect is easily forgotten, and we’re programmed by society to think we have to build trust. If we’re not living even just a little on the edge we, and our partners become complacent.

Worked late tonight, afterwards had the house to myself. Finally decided it was time to watch Fight Club. Wow! Better late than never!

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@Rollo – From The Mature Man post – “Men become happier than women by mid-life and for the most part I think I can see why. Most women in their late 30s to mid 40s are, for the most part, chronic complainers. After going through the high drama phases of her 20s, into kids, marriages and divorces in her 30s, women tend to content themselves languishing in this dissatisfaction that her fantasy life isn’t panning out. Nothing measures up to the perceived ideals she thinks are her due. Most women in western culture who find themselves single at 38-42 are… Read more »

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You guys are killing me. YaReally’s lecturing Blaximus on staying out of fights, while keyboard sparring/fighting with KFG. Scribbler telling Sentient that the Gambler movie excerpt looked pretty insipid after he told me to read “The Gambler” by Dostoyevsky last week. And now Scribbler realizes he actually had it in him all the time. As he recalls from poker and sales (Glenngarry Glenn Ross style sales). He just has to kill his ego, as explained by YaReally in the Gambler movie. Which ties into Fight Club, which Roused decided to just watch, which is all about killing the ego. Which… Read more »

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Correctoion “He just has to kill his ego, as explained by YaReally in the Gambler Revolver movie.

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@scribblerg holy shit!…it looks like everybody jumped on that fumble…lol… and props on putting in the work to get better… you triggered me with that ‘old man game’ crap …lol…(like nails on a chalk board…) so, i didn’t even make it past your comment…but i now see that YaReally weighed in (as well as many other men that know what they are doing) (just scanned it…and everything else,too…), so i know you’re getting good advice…and since everybody else weighed in too, now all the GOOD analysis is gone, and i’ll just have to settle for the sloppy [counts on fingers…]… Read more »

The Awakened One
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Mini FR: Went to a strip club with an older guy I knew. Got divorce raped and still very blue pill and bitter. Everyone there seems to know him but it’s because he blows his money there. He’s talking with a stripper he knows listening to her bs and then making boring conversation with her. I’m looking at her in the eyes. A couple other strippers are behind her and are giving me a glance (There’s an significant age difference between me and him). One of them goes on stage. Good looking but not much in the area that matters.… Read more »

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Now I’m wondering if a study has been done if the post ovulating things women go thru, like menstrual cramps and emotional swings, are lessened if she views her partner as highly desirable.
I’m picturing in my mind, maybe maybe due to a television influenced, that I just don’t see suburban beta types with the “where did that come from” look on their face after just being on the receiving end of a sudden vent from a woman.

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Funny, my current girl keeps telling me when she is on the blood… I just smile and say: “Thanks for the information.” But what is she trying to say?

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“Now I’m wondering if a study has been done if the post ovulating things women go thru, like menstrual cramps and emotional swings, are lessened if she views her partner as highly desirable.”

Overshare alert.
I used to have menstrual cramps that were debilitating. I’ve since given birth, and I can tell you it was very similar to giving birth. Literally hunched over, in the fetal position on the floor, unable to move.
As soon as I started dating my husband I never had those type of cramps again. True story. I’ve never read anything about it, but it happened to me.

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Furthermore: I went on the pill for our honeymoon and immediately started getting angry at him for just about everything. I was on oral contraception for about two months before he threw the pills into the trash because they made me crazy and “we weren’t having sex anyway”. I’ve been happy and on even keel ever since I got off of them, and we get along very very well.

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@johngalt Good question. Rather than do what I would normally do (refer to some purple pill guy who uses the term “fitness tests” and piss off Rollo again), let me refer you to a video with poor audio quality, the guy in the video having a hoarse voice and annoying background noise and it is PUA based. This is Todd Valentine and he is explaining how to pass value shit tests vs. comfort shit tests. The gist is @the 8:30 and after in this video. It is all about elevating your game. @JohnGalt, she is subtly giving you a comfort… Read more »

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I just realize this applies to Water Cannon Boy too after Liz just brought that up.

Don’t you agree with the comfort test angle when a woman is menstruating, Liz?

John Galts girl is already “into” him and his calibration could be improved in terms of how he responds.

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SJF: “Don’t you agree with the comfort test angle when a woman is menstruating, Liz?”

Yes I definitely agree with you.

Dutchman
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@scribblerG

I don’t really have anything to add to your FR but just wanted to give you props for pushing yourself. It’s legitimately inspiring as fuck.

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I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, although I haven’t EXPRESSED it to her yet. She shit tested me this morning about not helping the kids get ready for school and I didn’t get mad or anything, but I’m sure she could tell I was irritated about it. I’m trying to push through it and be nonreactive (and I haven’t been reactive for at least the last two weeks) but my brain is like “Yeah, she’s doing that because SHE CAN’T STAND YOU and your lame beta ways you fucking BETA LOSER” and it’s getting fucking annoying… Read more »

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@Awakened One

“Later the guy tells me that was very rude and that if she wasn’t at work she would’ve laid into me and that you talk to girls by giving them compliments (facepalm). Probably could’ve predicted these responses and turned around the situation but hanging around this guy sucks.”

Gay, white knights are the worst.

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101 observation on getting in PUA state: I am guessing it’s going to be easier for YaReally to get there because he’s 100% in on PUA. YaReally believes he will NEVER get laid being whatever the “real” YaReally started out as. He has no ego investment in the real YaReally. I don’t know what his job is, hobbies, etc., but apparently he can put those aside enough to be all in on game fairly often. Guys can get laid other ways, without airtight game. Even I have pulled that off. But then you have ego investment in the other ways.… Read more »

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“But women with their social media you could argue that it’s actually optimal for them to be obsessed with social media because they can land Justin Beiber if they put up the right Instagram pic of their ass. The problem is 99% of them won’t get Beiber but also won’t be satisfied with Joe Accountant because they think they CAN get Beiber” The most disturbing part of this is that girls are actually attracted to Beiber. lol. Yikes. “but in a traditional monoLTR? Not a chance. Tie half my assets and visitation of my children to her in that arrangement?… Read more »

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“I think ego investment in a real life persona is natural for men. ”

Yeah, it’s a lot easier to say “I’m not my fucking khakis” when your khakis are ripped and have mustard stains and maybe only have one or two pairs. When you’re older and you have a whole closet full of really nice khakis, it’s a lot harder, because you’ve invested a lot of time and effort acquiring those khakis, and people have complimented you on them numerous times.

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@SJF – Dude, you are trying way too hard. Gambling and sales have nothing to do with each other. And The Gambler is Dostoevsky’s best work by my reckoning, in the sense of the story telling and character development, you and @Forge were discussing some of his work.That’s why I gave the reco – it had nothing to do with gambling per se. As an aside, I read it as part of my research when writing a novel that featured NYC and Recife Brazil poker rooms and players as a motif, but it was not a poker book. And the… Read more »

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“Yeah, it’s a lot easier to say “I’m not my fucking khakis” when your khakis are ripped” It’s crazy to think how willingly I bought into all of it. Life just kind of sucks you in. It’s like that Talking Heads song. “And you may ask yourself Well…How did I get here?” I was so close to going down the other path it’s ridiculous… I read that David De’Angelo Double your Dating thing. Was introduced to my wife through social circle. Tried the cocky funny shit. Worked like gold. Crazy sex. Didn’t have enough self control to see her less… Read more »

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“I think ego investment in a real life persona is natural for men. ” Depends on the ego investment and what it is doing for you. If it’s fucking with your head and you’re like Jake Green in Revolver,,,,,,,,, or the Narrator (Ed Norton) in fight club who’s alter ego is a dick (not nice) but knows how to better advance the Narrators life strategy than the Narrator has any clue about, then yeah the ego might need to be killed (In fight club he kills his ego only after his ego convinced him to change to the correct strategy,… Read more »

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@Bad Day – Great tips on push/pull. This is exactly what I need, something to use when I feel like I’m getting locked up. And of course, all that shit is FI and the weird part is Ya and you and everyone else here was spot on about “old man game”. The more I saw it this way, the worse my approaches and sets were going. Thinking being older was different somehow wrt game is a huge mental trap. It can affect getting IOIs and attraction but I’m always reading for attraction on my approaches etc. If there is no… Read more »

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“Old man’s game” is giving off the subcomm your wife really does have your balls in a Mason jar under the kitchen sink.
.
Game them all—covertly let them know they’d be lucky if you picked them for the night: Law 34: […] act like a king to be treated like one.

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SJF: “Don’t you agree with the comfort test angle when a woman is menstruating, Liz?” Yes I definitely agree with you. A word on “comfort tests” vs beta bait… A comfort test, a real one, is some assurance that you – THE PRIZE – are not leaving her, aka a Loyalty Test… I believe the tests here around menstruastion are actually beta bait… she wants you to do something for her in her frame at your expense (ultimately). If a dose of ALPHA is chick crack, blows her mind completely but they can get too much of it and ruin… Read more »

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Romance is hard to find: Katerina Lyadova is looking for love, but says work hardly leaves her time to swipe and type. As an experiment, Lyadova, the 30-year-old co-founder of a graphic-design company in Toronto, hired a part-time “dating profile manager” on Wednesday through an ad in the jobs section of Craigslist. …“If you find a match that leads to a meaningful relationship, you’ll get a bonus,” the ad promised. “If it turns into a real deal i’ll double the original bonus.” … Lyadova, who was born in Irkutsk, Siberia, and moved here to study visual art at Humber College… Read more »

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Sribblerg “I shut that movie off after 10 mins when I tried to watch it. The excerpt above seemed pretty stupid and i turned it off halfway through so maybe I missed the point.” OK, maybe it’s not worth delving into but if anyone else is interested… the background to that clip, the final scene, the protagonist has exhausted all of his skill and resources and relationships in an effort to repay his gambling debt. He has one last chance, put everything on the line with one spin and win or face certain death. But he has evolved mentally to… Read more »

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@dutchman

“I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, ”

Take space…. leave the house more, get some work outs in… hang out in coffee shops… go hit a bar… talk to everyone who sits next to you, with no agenda. watch some pretty young girls walk by…

You need positive inputs… all this, plus time apart, will reduce your focus on your wife. let it go.

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@ScribblerG You are sub-communicating oldness. KFG is sub-communicating eternal youthful masculinity. 53 is not old. But it might seem so when you are fatigued from the battle. In answer to your direct request: “You old fuckers out there, like me, share here about what stops you from gaming the women you’d actually like to fuck. ” What stops me from fucking the woman I’d actually like to Game is less than masterful game. In other words, I think Game is all. (Fundamental game principles get me pussy with my wife, defined as she wants it, and murmers “harder”. …it’s good.)… Read more »

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“But he has evolved mentally to the point that for him “winning” is winning complete freedom OR complete annihilation. He is free either way.”

Which reminds me of one of my earliest maxims:

Either you will live through it, or you won’t. Either way, problem solved.

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@scribblerg “Thinking being older was different somehow wrt game is a huge mental trap.” true…it can even manifest itself like this… “It can affect getting IOIs and attraction” or this… “(isolating, escalating is more challenging due to the social standing issues).” ‘old man game’ is NO different that ‘game’…except maybe that it’s like playing a video game on the easy mode…(bc it’s a LOT easier for me to tell a girl to show me how she would pose for me if she was the playboy centerfold in a semi-crowded coffee shop with her two friends than one of her classmates…lol)… Read more »

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“KFG is sub-communicating eternal youthful masculinity.” Despite my above comments, age is basically a null concept to me and I have previously advised Scribbler to erase the concept from his mind. I’m not my age, I’m just me, who or whatever that happens to be at the time. I think last year was the first time in my life that I have, on my own, considered age, as it occurred to me that in the area of my athletic speciality the time is approaching when I’ll only be able to be top dog within some age restriction. I’m not my… Read more »

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@Dutchman “I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, although I haven’t EXPRESSED it to her yet.” she likely already knows…your subcomms will have told her… “She shit tested me this morning about not helping the kids get ready for school and I didn’t get mad or anything, but I’m sure she could tell I was irritated about it.” why would you be irritated that she wants to f’k?…serious question… (see Forge the Sky’s comment at jan 27 at 2:11pm…) ALL shit testing is a huge IOI…you just have to convert on it…lol now that you have giving… Read more »

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“Proceed at your own risk with beta bait requests….”

Thanks for that clarification Sentient. A lot of this stuff is working for me. But at this time in my stages of mastery it is coming naturally to me (with some glimpses of the code). It helps that you spell it out more clearly.

And this point you make is similar to avoiding The Female Stages of Manipulation of manipulations in the Joseph South book.

But your distinction is very helpful at avoiding a trap that I actually have not fallen into (betatization) and hope others don’t also.

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And in regards to me actually asking LIZ how a man should treat a woman during shark week, bear with me. I was actually trying to set her up (blog game) with a compliance test. No disrepect to Liz. I love her intellectually and she has a cool husband. I wanted to set up the job description of a red pill woman in the company of mostly red pill men, (i.e. commenting on this blog). Part of the job description should be to actually be red pill and “spill the beans” or admit to psychological ploys women use in their… Read more »

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“But your distinction is very helpful at avoiding a trap that I actually have not fallen into (betatization) and hope others don’t also”

He he he… let’s just my experience in this area is hard won… ;(

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@SJF ” and she has a cool husband.” “Liz being a certain type of personality and being in the comfort of a masculine male, is a good resource to fork over the knowledge of the ploys.” If a women is not BPD or bat shit crazy, the personality of a woman is more a reflection of the men in her life. I have observed this in women, recently. As a rule of thumb , if the women is under tutelage of a strong/ high status / cool confident man then it reflects in the comfort in the women feels in… Read more »

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