Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

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[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]

red-curry
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red-curry

The practical tip from this study is that tracking the cycle of women and hanging out with them during their fertile part is paramount. We already knew that if you are single, your chances of lay with that woman are the highest. Now we know that if you are in couple, this will trigger that sweet mate guarding behavior in your partner, increasing your desirability, which will be hamstered in an increase of your perceived SMV.

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[…] Ovulation & Dread […]

bo jangles
Guest
bo jangles

I’ve got something for you Rollo. One interesting thing is that men and women generally respond very differently to stress(generally the response to stress hormonally is like the response to exercise). Men tend to become narcissistic and less social, and women become anxious and more social. It makes sense that during hunting or running away that the mind stop using portions certain portions of it, just as blood is shunted away from the stomach, and towards muscle. My theory is that men who treat women in a way that causes them great stress yet is able to keep her close… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Guest
Anonymous Reader

Outstanding article, taking apart real science. I suddenly miss Heartiste’s little heart emoticons around the word “science”.

Anyway…

Many women in the modern world are on hormonal contraception. My casual research suggests this system spoofs pregnancy via external hormones. I admit I have not bothered to dig in detail.

If women are “spoof pregnant” all the time, how does this fit in with the ovulatory / menstrual cycle discussed in the article?

Tom
Guest
Tom

@red-curry,

You’re right, and taking it further- no woman should ever know that you are a “sure thing”

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

First off
“Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.”
Damn New awakening their and this part.
“She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.”
Coming from a background of trauma this never got to blossom but i can see its biological importance now more than ever,
http://childtrauma.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Perry-Bruce-neurosequentialmodel_06.pdf
As here as well
https://childtrauma.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Bonding_13.pdf
Here as well
https://childtrauma.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Memories_of_Fear_Perry.pdf
https://childtrauma.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Incubated_In_Terror.pdf

Tom
Guest
Tom

Something those researchers aren’t considering (they’re probably not aware of it, since they’re unlikely to have in-field experience with seduction) is: That women are attracted to men who have other women attracted to them.

It’s kind of like Cialdini’s social proof concept, except I think it goes deeper (to the limbic level) in the case of sexual attraction.

StringsofCoins
Guest

Social proofing is the most powerful aphrodisiac. If you are married and girls aren’t flirting with you I suggest you change so that they are. For now you can lie to your wife and tell her a story about some girl hitting on you. I haven’t lied but the girls I want know that other girls want me. I’ve been poached. Nothing drives a girl wild like competition. Hence dread game and social proofing. Sucks for the incel guys but just lie about it. It will become true. Nothing breeds success like success. Why do you think women hate virgins… Read more »

StringsofCoins
Guest

My second LTR was a single mom. Pre-player days. When I was purple pilled. Nineteen and had an illegitimate child from a 35 year old player. She lied, of course, and used the fake rape story. See guys she was raped! Raped into child. And stupid me half believed it. Still had her in crotchless panties and a skirt fucking her in the woods outside Barnes and Noble. “Won’t someone see?”, shut up. I knew something was wrong but I couldn’t place it. Years went by. Years! While I was her bastard daughters father. Autumn. Oh I did want to… Read more »

StringsofCoins
Guest

Not one of that pathetic drug dealing losers baby mommas even had him paying child support. They didn’t want it!

They didn’t even have him paying child support!

Dumb sluts love players. And they identify them through social proofing. Don’t have it? Hey just lie and watch it become true. You have to imagine the truth before you can make it so.

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
Guest

I am currently dating a brand new woman. This behaviour is evident in everything. She is completely hyperaware of absolutely every woman that might be checking me out, or when I start to have conversations with female bartenders and waitresses. I can see her entire body language shifting and her starting to kiss/lick/bite in order to mark her territory. It’s fascinating to imagine that the ques that men also pick on that make a woman more attractive to them, such as ovulation are also picked on by women and if they are in a relationship it leads to guarding. Observable… Read more »

RealTalk
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RealTalk

The problem with consistently relying on dread is that, eventually, you’ll build small fissures into the relationship and this will inevitably lead her to wander or entertain thoughts of a new man. Heartiste himself acknowledged this in an old post by saying something to the effect of, “Dread is very easy to over do and once it is over done, it can rock the core of a relationship beyond repair. See: trust.” Your best bet, and I know “gamers” hate this saying, is to hook up with someone in your own league or with a woman lower than you. If… Read more »

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
Guest

@RealTalk I don’t think a man can evaluate that fact well. You see we are programmed to see value in women by looks. Therefore we assume value in ourselves by our looks alone. Though looks, status, social proofing, confidence etc play into it, you cannot assume that your value is lower than a woman’s. You can be seen by a woman as both as attractive and very sexual. What you are doing there is differentiating between the two types of hypergamy and valuing the beta attraction of it. It’s in essence the alpha fucks and beta bucks aspect of hypergamy.… Read more »

Urban Meyer
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Urban Meyer

The new HBO comedy special with Whitney Cummings is nonstop open hypergamy and red pill truths. She talks about going on the pill and craving alpha males; plus how she slept around on her boyfriends in her early twenties.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Real Talk Stop making shit up. A call for lowering standards is something I find offensive. Just to make it easier? That is an illusion. Just because you don’t have enough game? BS. Relying on dread? The trick is to not rely on dread because you, the man, is so good that she is the one generating dread. So you don’t have to. “You may fool a woman once or twice but her id monster will eventually start screaming internally when your inherent SMV is below hers.” Let her id scream all it wants. That’s her emotional roller coaster. Be… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

Very interesting study, many thanks for the post Rollo. I think I’ve had women hit on me in the past but I consistently thought I must be imagining it. And as Rollo writes: “Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.” Now I’m “pretty sure”. Which is why for me this is hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAUT74FBmY4 Love that example of IOI / subcomms (perhaps a bit exaggerated? I’m not very experienced but… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

” . . . hook up with someone in your own league . . . ”

I have heard of these, but I have never met one.

SJF
Guest
SJF

Rollo Tomassi: “Our great danger is not that we aim too high and fail, but that we aim too low and succeed.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@SJF
“Yes it’s hard, but so is anything masculine.”

What a damn good thing to wake up to.

Woodchipper
Guest
Woodchipper

@SJF Very poetic. I’ve been focusing a lot lately on both physical and emotional strength. They definitely go together. I avoided the gym for a long time and didn’t think I could make a habit of it. Now, there’s nothing like leaving the gym and feeling like my legs are going to give out from under me at any moment. In that same way, I’ve been able to embrace an emotional mind-fuck rather than avoid it at all costs. I knew I had a lot of anxiety, but never realized just how much until recently being able to experience the… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Rollo – Error “…a bit to regular.” should be “too”. @SJF – A lesson I’m only now taking to hear. “Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better.” Only fly in the ointment there is that I got lazy as fuck and lived in a delusional, ego buffered sea of nonsense so long that I’m out of practice. Cracking the whip on myself at 53 is no fucking joke. Every day is a roller coaster – but I’m improving every day. It’s amazing how one can retreat into inner delusions and interpret everything in self-serving ways without realizing it.… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11
SJF
Guest
SJF

@Rollo

Congratulations on your Frame grab re: Pacific Standard Time.

Any options in WordPress to put PST after the time and date? So our EST, intelligent brains can adjust to the math +3 more efficiently (time is our most valuable asset and if you can shave a millisecond off our thinking/converting it would help).

Heh. Personally I’m OK in dealing with +3’s (….you know, my sexual partner of 27 years….).

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

Re: Ovulation, dread etc. This also explains why teen girls go savage on each other when they begin ovulating and sexually maturing. 7th-11th grade is a pool of seething hormones and sexuality, which all are dealing with for the first time. Add to that a culture which encourages hypersexuality in teen girls and voila – massive competition, mate guarding, poaching. I never quite got why my daughter’s social circle and school went apeshit at this point. She managed to navigate it pretty well after some initial mishaps, but wow, yeah. It also explains why the mom’s of these girls jumped… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

“MGTOW is to decide you don’t want to play by the rules of the actual, occurring world. It’s a fantasy world and an ego buffer, writ large. It’s a gigantic LARP to protect men who are too wounded or lazy or dishonest or scared to play to win.

To reject game (in the larger sense of all social interactions) is to reject reality.”

That’s observably true of me for quiet sometime.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@ScribblerG Re: 48 Laws of Power “It’s easy to see it as cruel or dishonest or narcissistic – that’s just the Blue Pill in death throes.” It is easy to see it as not that with a red pill lens. The introduction or preface or whatever it is to the book really is key to setting the tone in this regard. I have a serious urge to cut and paste the intro, but I think that extinction burst of my poor commenting days is fading. I don’t do well with audio of the written word. Unfortunately Robert Greene’s book isn’t… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@SJF – I look at the 48 Laws of Power every day – it’s my home page on my browser and have the book in pdf already. I didn’t like reading the book due to what you said, but in audio book form it’s kind of awesome. Like listening to a wise man read you some stories. I also get a ton of out of narrative rather than didactic presentations so it’s really sinking the meaning in much more deeply for me. You and I process information quite differently, but I’m confident that between the two of us very little… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Scribbler: ” . . . it’s a slang term for a scientific approach to social analysis. The scientific approach is to model and then to examine the model for its predictive power. The map is not the territory. The map is a model. A model that that can predict how to get from here to there. If a model were a perfect reproduction of what it models, it wouldn’t be a model any more. It would be the thing itself. “Theory” is a type of model. No theory, no scientific approach. Red Pill is not reality itself, it is a… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

“Even when married to her for 25 years, keep her guessing, make her wonder, keep surprising her, don’t telegraph intentions and never, ever let her see the “inside of the sausage factory” That’s the idea and with red pill/game it is going well except the Frame is not power thing. When Frame is not power, IMHO it just means that game needs to be better. This last three weeks I’ve actually have run into some stiff headwinds on my journey. Rollo and Heartiste have actually wrote about this before( sorry I can’t cite the essays right now). I’m actually on… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

“How did you see my mystery/playfulness comments?”

Read that after my last post.

Sorry, I’m actually at work, so I’m a little disjointed here. You know, in between patients.

IAS
Guest
IAS

@SJF: “in between patients” I just imagined you are a gynecologist…

@Kfg: good accurate description of the Red Pill.

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@KFG – I don’t disagree in principle with your comment, as an intellectual distinction. Let me take another whack at it and see if I can be more logical. Scientific approach applies reason tempered by experiment/data where possible Red Pill is focusing the scientific approach on all social dynamics (Blue Pill is much bigger than just intersexual dynamics) Game is the set of heuristics, or “the model” if you will, that gives men power in social settings, including intersexual social dynamics, which is constantly tested against the evolving science and real world experiments PUA is using game and developing pickup… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@SJF – I doubt being overt is going to help at all, but have at it and let us know how it goes. As with your commentary, less is more…

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@SJF – Also, I didn’t say frame is power. Try to keep up…

Bromeo
Guest
Bromeo

Stellar stuff, I like the fact that with just with a few major foundations of RP principles fully embraced, all the other links just naturally fall into place, like this post or study that was done, even if I hadn’t read or known about it I would still be exuding the attributes that trigger the effects. Reading the mechanics of how they actually work is a bonus and really fascinating.

kfg
Guest
kfg

” . . . heuristics . . .” . . . are methods of constructing models: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Solve_It “MGTOW is LARPing in that it starts with the absurd premise than one can escape social dynamics and being at the effect of them.” A man who tries to fly in an Airfix model of a Supermarine Spitfire is in error, not the model. Where we disagree is regarding your premise of the premise. To employ a heuristic, given a Red Pill map of the social territory, one in which the population density of women increases from west to east, PUA’s travel east.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

RealTalk’s suggestion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NF5XU-k2Vk

My reaction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g

If all this hard work and self improvement is to marry an HB3 Slagathor and crank out some butt ugly crotch goblins, I got better shit to do. Seriously bro, try harder.

YaReally
Guest

@Rollo “Trust, rapport, comfort, familiarity are all anti-seductive conditions. They are simply not conducive to prompting genuine desire or sexual tension and urgency.” RSDTodd has a great explanation of this concept from an ONS/SNL seduction/pickup frame (vs an LTR frame) nicely here for the guys who are trying to wrap their head around what you’re saying (starting at 2:40): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djHIluzblJA&t=2m40s The things that make you a good Provider ACTIVELY make you a worse candidate for being a Lover in her mind. And the stuff you do that builds comfort/rapport/familiarity/etc actually make you less of a Same Night Lay candidate. Julien… Read more »

Dutchman
Guest
Dutchman

@Realtalk

“Dread is very easy to over do and once it is over done, it can rock the core of a relationship beyond repair. See: trust.”

My impression of this is that she should probably trust that you’re not out ACTIVELY SEEKING other women to mess around with but that she should be worried that you might fall over backwards into a “it just happened!” by virtue of how attractive you are to the opposite sex.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@scribblerg “@SJF – Also, I didn’t say frame is power. Try to keep up…” Sorry, I’m having trouble with my words today. Me: “That’s the idea and with red pill/game it is going well except the Frame is not power thing.” Should have read: “That’s the idea and with red pill/game. It (my red/pill game) is going well these days. Except for the “Frame is not Power” thing. She still keeps frame well and I have trouble pulling her into mine” You: “I doubt being overt is going to help at all, but have at it and let us know… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

“The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. ‘ Indeed. Dread required in LTR, absolutely required. And she will love it while it makes her unhappy at the same time. Examples… At picnic W’s friend, runs over “heloo handsome” turns to wife while squeezing my arm “he looks younger every time I see him!” At shop while on vacation… Stop at counter, direct eye contact with young shop girl “so…… where do you like to go… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

And to pre-empt the “SEE U GUISE JUST SUPPLICATE TO WOMEN U ARE JUST BEING WUT U THINK THEY WANT U TO BEEEEEE PUSSY-BEGGARRRRRRR!!!!” crowd: This isn’t changing my core values or belief system, it’s simply modifying which parts of my values/beliefs I highlight in an interaction. ie – it’s always been important to me that the girl is, say, able to come to my part of the city because I don’t have a car and in general making an effort to go see her feels a bit supplicative to me even if it works, it just goes against what… Read more »

Chump No More
Guest
Chump No More

@SJF, the ‘Man in the Arena’ speech is pure fucking gold.

I posted it a few weeks back in response to all the MGTOW whining.

Anonymous Reader
Guest
Anonymous Reader

Sort of answering my own question about hormonal contraception, ovulation and Dread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_contraception

If I read right, this article claims 18% of contraception is hormonal. I find that kind of amazing, given the amount of estrogen that shows up in various water supplies in North America and Europe. Seriously 18%? That seems pretty low. Maybe I’ll chase that cite to see where it goes.

However, if hormonal contraception is really only used by a minority of fertile women, then the original posting is valid in over 80% of women.

quixotic
Guest
quixotic

Actual real world examples of female mate guarding i notice when out with one of my plates -When a pretty girl walks by/sits near, they will do the hair thing girls do when they want you to notice them. Sometimes both the stranger and my plate are in a battle, each repeatedly flipping their hair back lol -When its a pretty waitress, they cut each other off instead of waiting for the other to finish sentences. Seems like plate wants waitress to leave table as fast as possible to keep me from flirting more. This one is funny cuz plate… Read more »

newlyaloof
Guest

@Sentient, good to see you over here, man!

YaReally
Guest

To watch some of these dynamics in action on a very subtle level (like the girls competing for him will try to get his attention or stand closer to him etc trying to mate-guard reacting to preselection/jealousy and social proof), there’s a video in Julien’s PIMP product called “How I pick up an eastern european model in the day” which has a good demo of him taking over a starbucks (along with analysis breakdowns and explanations of his mindsets/strategies) and playing girls off eachother and pretending to know people he doesn’t know and toward the end he even introduces a… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

@newlyaloof he Newly… hope all is well with you.

“Not for nothing, but I can always expect some very memorable sex with Mrs. T the nights before I have to fly out to Vegas”

Indeed even in the midst of BP marriage W was always one to drain the nutsack prior to business travel. It’s programmed in. LOL

YaReally
Guest

Make sure you click the Watch on YouTube link because that’s a playlist btw

@Rollo
Fucking lol at that clip. So accurate.

YaReally
Guest

(also I recommend watching the Night Chill Game video first, it’s the best example of overall skillset that anyone can do with the best calibration to what’s going on…this is the most “flawless” pickup in terms of him creating a smooth pickup experience. There’s more miscalibration in the nightclub ones etc, but pay attention to the little things like his subcomms where he makes sure to lock-in (his back to a wall and the girl facing him), uses dominant kino, isn’t fazed by being rejected for the makeout, lets silences hang, tons of laser eye-contact, lots of self amusement, shifting… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Guest
Anonymous Reader

Credit where credit is due department: Athol Kay was the first man I read on the issue of ovulation and behavior, including images of women in various stages of the cycle.

As with other Red Pill facts, the article referenced in Rollo’s OP explains some incidents in my college days that previously made utterly no sense. Female hormones can be mighty powerful…

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
Guest

@Anonymous Reader Regarding contraception studies have shown that it affects mate selection that is; the hormones within the pill or contraceptives that combine oestrogen and progestorone mimic a condition where the body thinks its pregnant. Therefore mate selection alters for these women who select less threatening men. I theorise that a lot of the feminisation of men, can be due to pressures from the opposite sex, which in their attempts to get laid and maximise their hypergamy resort to finding mates that are not what they would traditionally call attractive. Now the real fun starts when the couple decides they… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

Meanwhile, in Japan.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@YaReally

OH GOD I’M SO CLUMSY NO ONE BETTER DOWNLOAD AND SAVE THOSE HOURS OF VALUABLE INFIELD BREAKDOWN FOOTAGE TO WATCH AND LEARN FROM BEFORE THEY GET DELETED THAT’S FOR SURE ESPECIALLY NOT GUYS LIKE @FORGE THE SKY @CULUM STRUAN @SCRIBBLERG @SUN WUKONG @SENTIENT ETC

That’s your spaghetti story, ain’t it?

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

Completely off point and it killed my productivity for a few mins, but i just had to share this. Lose 10 mins of your life too!
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-Ujj3QlkwU&w=560&h=315%5D

YaReally
Guest

@Rollo “I imagine it’s powerful stuff if you can work it into an approach.” That’s a good example of moving a pawn, but it’s even more powerful if you use it to work the entire chessboard. Oldschool Mystery Method used a lot of merging sets, merging sets forward, and springboarding off sets…the idea being that if you open a set and introduce them to another set as your friends, neither set realizes that you don’t know the other set because normally anyone who does that would know the people involved, and no one really questions it because why WOULD you?… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Rollo – The best sex I had with my erstwhile wife a million years ago was when I would go out after work for drinks, and only tell her late with a call from the bar. I had a long commute so this usually meant a late night arrival home. She’d be furious with me on the phone but would fuck my brains out when I climbed into bed reeking of cigs and booze and half blotto. Didn’t need to be nice about it either. Rarely was our sex life like that at other times. Yet one of many things… Read more »

walawala
Guest
walawala

@YaReally Good insights. This is very much like DJing. I now have a big collection of songs. Some I include each time, others I mix up. It’s generally high energy but then I can add or remove songs depending on the mood of the crowd. Same with the soundboard. Maybe the songs are ok but their sound quality is off, so I then adjust the bass, treble or gain. If you just played the same songs every time without any calibration you’d lose the attention of the group very quickly. Too much “dread” and you scare her off. Too little… Read more »

quixotic
Guest
quixotic

lmao I fucking love you guys. YaReally, thank you as always for your sage advice you’re the filthy big brother we never had

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

I’m betting a degree of what Rollo mentions here happens with women policing each other during GNO as well. I talked to the friend who acted as the worst wing ever about some of what went on the night I got a beer tossed at me. His very Blue Pill view of why he jumped in and cock blocked aside (“You were being an asshole” “Yes, I was, and it was working before you jumped in”), I got some valuable observation that he accidentally made without realizing the subcomms. The chick that ultimately wound up tossing a beer at me… Read more »

having a bad day
Guest
having a bad day

@SJF i love Jim Rohn…here’s the full quote: “Don’t wish it was easier wish you were better. Don’t wish for less problems wish for more skills. Don’t wish for less challenge wish for more wisdom” @scribblerg “I got lazy as fuck and lived in a delusional, ego buffered sea of nonsense so long that I’m out of practice. Cracking the whip on myself at 53 is no fucking joke. Every day is a roller coaster – but I’m improving every day. It’s amazing how one can retreat into inner delusions and interpret everything in self-serving ways without realizing it.” i’m… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Scribbler: ” . . . will they have any practice even being a girlfriend?”

No.

“Will they even be able to fake it?”

Fake it? They don’t even understand that it exists. What will save them is that the beta chodes don’t either.

I don’t “date” in the conventional sense myself, build social value rather easily and I’m not looking for a girlfriend, so “hang” culture works very well for me personally, but The Culture(tm) is already a dead man walking.

YaReally
Guest

@scribblerg “What I’m very curious is about is what happens when these girlies hit the wall? Beta chodes will still abound, no doubt but will they have any practice even being a girlfriend? Will they even be able to fake it?” Mass chaos. Beta uprising shootings will skyrocket as the gap in the 80/20 becomes 95/5 (already from what I’m seeing I can’t imagine how a normal AFC is getting any kind of pussy, they need the planets to align like a miracle just to get some social circle 5 wasted and high and bored/horny enough to happen to pick… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

@scribblerg “It’s like social media and text and tinder etc have short circuited their forebrains” It’s not just the young hotties though… it’s all women, all the time. The 6.5 from the recent FR, she was on her phone the entire night texting and Fb’ing with FOUR different guys at once. I was teasing her about tinder and match.com and she gave me her phone and her friend is like “oh yeah” she has this guy here, that guy there… this one flying her in for the weekend” etc. and her phone was blowing up the whole night…. a late… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Sun Wukong “His very Blue Pill view of why he jumped in and cock blocked aside (“You were being an asshole” “Yes, I was, and it was working before you jumped in”)” lol that’s why I’m keeping a low profile in my new city. I don’t want to have a bunch of blue pill guys around me when I’m sarging. Just recently I befriended one who was passing through town and he was an otherwise cool guy but of course when the smokin 9 sat down beside me and I started busting on her and we had deep sexual laser… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Having a Bad Day:

Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

Scribbler thinks I don’t think enough. What you see here is one corner of my brain thinking on autopilot while the main portion is devoted to something unrelated.

It’s the thinking I can do rather thoughtlessly.

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

@Ya “DUDE YOU CAN’T SAY THAT TO GIRLS YOU SHOULDN’T SAY THAT MAN WOW SORRY ABOUT MY BUDDY THAT’S REALLY RUDE MAN” Lolololol….. that is verbatim what my WK buddy is always always doing…. But he usually says I’m an asshole as well… I keep shaking my head thinking he will get it but he is constitutionally incapable of it. Which is funny because he is pretty alpha in all traditional ways – money, exec job, hunts, fishes, uses tools etc… Maybe there is some hope for him. We were out the other night in local place in my town,… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Sentient “and her friend is like “oh yeah” she has this guy here, that guy there… this one flying her in for the weekend” etc. and her phone was blowing up the whole night…. a late 30’s 6.5.” Yup. Like I say, any guy who doubts girls are COMMONLY coming out of college with N-counts of 50+, just hang onto a 6’s cell phone for a weekend and look at her social media and ask yourself how much self-restraint YOU would have if YOU had that many offers coming at you and no one telling you not to take them… Read more »

Dutchman
Guest
Dutchman

@Sentient “It’s not just the young hotties though… it’s all women, all the time. The 6.5 from the recent FR, she was on her phone the entire night texting and Fb’ing with FOUR different guys at once. I was teasing her about tinder and match.com and she gave me her phone and her friend is like “oh yeah” she has this guy here, that guy there… this one flying her in for the weekend” etc. and her phone was blowing up the whole night…. a late 30’s 6.5.” What I don’t get about this is just the math. I mean,… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Sentient “Lolololol….. that is verbatim what my WK buddy is always always doing…. But he usually says I’m an asshole as well… I keep shaking my head thinking he will get it but he is constitutionally incapable of it. Which is funny because he is pretty alpha in all traditional ways – money, exec job, hunts, fishes, uses tools etc…” The irony is if he made ONE little shift and simply lol’ed along with what you said and when the girl looked at him he said in a FUN way “lol ya watch out my buddy is an asshole” like… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Dutchman “What I don’t get about this is just the math. I mean, it’s not like there are all of a sudden ten times as many guys as girls. Are these beta chode dudes just choding it up for multiple girls all spam approach style? Like “If I can’t fly Ashley to Paris, I’ll see if I can get Stacy, Katie or Jessica to go with me.” ?” Yup. That’s exactly what they’re doing. That’s part of the big shift mentioned somewhere in that TRP link I linked earlier in this thread. There was a point where people were just… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

@dutchman I think it is two things… guys are so thirsty they will follow a text string forever…. and Ms. Attention is just playing off that, so the convo’s never die they keep multiplying via accumulation. Cos guys keep playing along… Second, at least in the late 30’s 40’s range there aren’t many unattached good looking women and guys that age don’t think they can get young hot girls or are afraid to so there is a lot of competition from early 30’s guys through 60 YO’s… and women in that age range have all kind sof problems they love… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@YaReally Yeah. The number I pulled easy off an HB8 a couple weeks back turned out to be a dud; she had come in on a double date with her HB7 friend (who I busted on as the “ugly friend” in my opened, then a few minutes later she practically hurled me at the 8) and her “date” had gotten “I have a boyfriend” even though the guy with the 7 (much taller, better looking, great game, just a natural all around) was getting good results. Consequently, the dude was bitter and white knighted when I dropped some RP. Totally… Read more »

Kent Thomas
Guest
Kent Thomas

Rollo, you mentioned the lower SMV woman, and how she mate guards differently than a higher SMV woman. Any suggestions for someone like me, in an LTM (marriage) with an LSMV woman? Amused Mastery has helped greatly, as well as Agree and Amplify. Sex is more frequent and better, and she’s working out now to lose the weight, but I’d like to see also a rise in her horniness along with the weight loss, and while the nagging and browbeating is a lot less frequent, it still happens too much. For anyone who has suggestions, please don’t say divorce. I… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

““and her friend is like “oh yeah” she has this guy here, that guy there… this one flying her in for the weekend” etc. and her phone was blowing up the whole night…. a late 30’s 6.5.”
Yup. Like I say, any guy who doubts girls are COMMONLY coming out of college with N-counts of 50+, just hang onto a 6’s cell phone for a weekend and look at her social media”

JEEEeeeesus…. So, I’m assuming there’s some handsome jacked guys out there with zero game, but crazy abundance?

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@KFG – Au contraire, it’s you who believes I don’t think enough – I think you are entranced with your own thoughts and analyses. I’ve never considered whether you don’t think enough, but now that you ask I would say I believe your think way too much. Fyi, huge error in your “reasoning” above – I called game a heuristic, and of course a “model” is implied by a heuristic(s) and course a model might be comprised of a set of heuristics, but as you said above, the map is not the terrain. You skipped it, twisted it and then… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Kent Not going to say you should divorce, and you definitely should never openly make the threat (or any other ultimatum, for that matter). However, keep the actual intention to do so if she doesn’t get her shit together running in the background. Really. You never want to feel cornered with no options or it’ll reflect itself in your behavior. The eject button always leaves you with an option that should cause her dread. Otherwise, it sounds like you’re doing the right things. Perhaps start flirting with attractive women in front of her. As the research here implies, if she… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

@andy

“girls are COMMONLY coming out of college with N-counts of 50+….

JEEEeeeesus…. So, I’m assuming there’s some handsome jacked guys out there with zero game, but crazy abundance?”

http://media.syracuse.com/sports/photo/ncaa-notre-dame-duke-lacrosjpg-2f9652f4a5a3d3a3_large.jpg

lax bros… LOL

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

Sorta smart guys become engineers.
Very smart guys become physicists.
World class intellects study math.

Hahah, ok.

redlight
Guest
redlight

@kent

As sun says:

Perhaps start flirting with attractive women in front of her

You need to get to the point where she sees that attractive women flirt with you

bluepillprofessor
Guest

Love the pic for this article! I use the same pic for the cover of my book. It was very prescient of you to post “Ovulation & Dread” this week as it happens my long awaited magnum opus: “Saving a Low Sex Marriage: A Man’s Guide To Dread, Seduction, and the Long Game” will be available as early as Friday (January 29)!!! See this link to access the book when it is ready (and also for some ultra cool podcasts comprising a Married Red Pill entry level class in the style of the MGTOW videos). https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/ Thanks Rollo- you always… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Bad Day – Let me save you a lot of energy. Most men are never going to ever really take the Red Pill – even if it’s presented to them in a gift wrapped package. I know, I’ve presented it in this way to willing, smart guys who respect me, have known me for 20 years or more, and think I’m worth listening to. Nope, they will not do so. I’m not trying to be “Cap’n save a MGTOW” any more than I’m trying to be “Cap’n save a ho”. I decimate MGTOW for the rare man who secretly knows… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Scribbler: ” . . . it’s you who believes I don’t think enough . . .”

Au contraire, I have generally thought you think too much.

“I wouldn’t bother spending the mental energy to play along with. ”

But perhaps I was wrong.

“I’ve never considered whether you don’t think enough . . .”

You have accused me of it. And of being incapable of it. For saying what you just said above.

Go figure.

YaReally
Guest

@Sun Wukong “Too bad he managed to make the number in to no response. Guess he got what he wanted. If he can’t have her, nobody can. AFCs got a crab mentality, man.” Those guys are legitimately happy with this outcome. They don’t even care if they get the girl, they think they will EVENTUALLY when she realizes he’s better than all these jerks, their goal is just to make sure YOU don’t get her. …but I can’t blame them I do the same thing to other guys lol but just when they’re dicks to me and earn it. If… Read more »

YaReally
Guest

@Andy “JEEEeeeesus…. So, I’m assuming there’s some handsome jacked guys out there with zero game, but crazy abundance?” That’s how it’s looking, but with caveats. Those guys are generally going to be found running online game, because their zero game doesn’t hold up in real life approaches, and the selection of girls in online game is less than awesome lol So generally those guys will be banging a shitload of 5-7s with the occasional 8 and rare 9 and a lot of those girls are damage cases (kids, drugs, cheating, crazy, etc) because online game is swarming with a bunch… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

” I see most “philosophers” for what they are – short cut artists and bullshitters who lord their merely above average intellects above the average guy. ”

Feynman once told a philosopher about a recent discovery in physics. The philosopher said:

“Yes, well, philosophers have have known that for ages.”

Feynman responded, “Perhaps some of you knew it, but we proved it.”

YaReally
Guest

@redlight @kent “You need to get to the point where she sees that attractive women flirt with you” Ya, the trick is that when SHE doesn’t see you as attractive, she can’t see other girls flirt with you. She will rationalize it away as you just imagining it etc. But when she’s attracted to you, she’ll project that onto other girls and assume other girls want you and she’ll see and blow up the flirting in her mind as a real threat. Tyler covers some of this dynamic (how her perception of you shifts) around 3:25 in this clip but… Read more »

having a bad day
Guest
having a bad day

well, if we’re posting videos…

here’s where YaReally explained game to me and some buddies…using metaphors of course…lol…

YaReally = Spock
blue pill = Melkotian illusion = FI
red pill/game = reality = masculinity

bullets = shit tests…lol…

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Ya – Jesus man, yeah, I get it. I always say a pickle ain’t never going to become a cucumber again. We’ll have to crash this fucker into a flaming shitheap disaster and completely destroy it. You are particularly cogent on the impact of the destruction of the family. The beta revolt will be led by a man-boy raised by a single mother, shit on in public school for his whole life. In a way, one can see radical Islam and Jihad resurging as a masculine spasmodic backlash against the FI. Same thing with revanchist fundo Christians, although they have… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@KFG – Cleverness is the annoying, ankle-biting, fuck-up little brother of wisdom.

having a bad day
Guest
having a bad day

@YaReally Sentient

““DUDE YOU CAN’T SAY THAT TO GIRLS YOU SHOULDN’T SAY THAT MAN WOW SORRY ABOUT MY BUDDY THAT’S REALLY RUDE MAN””

i just wanted to point out to you guys that this is a beta’s hindbrain doing the equivalent of [waving hand high in the air…] “OH!!…OH!!…LOOK AT ME!!!…LOOK AT MMEEEE!!!!” to the girl’s hindbrain…lol…it’s just an attempt to get her attention within the approved bounds of the FI…

kobayashii1681
Guest

Fucking-A!!!!

kobayashii1681
Guest

Amen brother!

kobayashii1681
Guest

Well said!

As IM says:
“IM MAXIM #93 – “If a woman is attainable, but you believe she is out of your league, she is. Self-fulfilling prophecy.“

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