A Teachable Moment


While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

733 comments on “A Teachable Moment

  1. Been there for about a year. Then somehow, after a lot of reading and analyzing stuff from my previous years, it finally hit me. Hypergamy is the best thing that can happen to women from their point of view (guess I’m in the Accepting phase of this shit). 10.000 years before, now, and 10.000 years from now on. It’s what they want, what they desire, what fulfills them on the deepest existential level. It’s the equivalent of us desiring unrestrained, unlimited sex with many HB10 way into old age. From their point of view our wish is despicable, from our point their drive is also despicable.

    It’s a road wired into our brains, but seemingly differently: to have the best/many offspring we are capable of. But while we are hard wired towards a r type strategy, having millions of eggs at our disposal, women are more inclined towards a K type, having three, four hundred. Quantity versus quality. Is one strategy more despicable than the other? Is alfa fucks/beta bucks more despicable than leaving your old wife with children for a hot/witty girl willing to spread her legs, willing to give you more children?

    I don’t think the Blue Pill fairy tale is a female invention, I think it’s more like mother nature slowly forcing both sexes inside one carriage – providing and raising their offspring successfully. It’s simply a strategy of getting along in an environment in which the ratio of females to males is about 50-50, a workable strategy for ALL males and females taken together, in which BOTH parties must relinquish some of their drives. Now sometimes this romantic chimera gets torn at the edges, either by the male or the female or both in a relationship. Sometimes, due to social pressure, spiritual development, environment, etc, the mirage stays in place for the whole marriage until really “death do us part”. But both men’s drives and women’s drives will be there, ready to rear their ugly heads.

    Women didn’t invent the blue pill to deceive us, both sexes created it and embraced it out of necessity. The feminist movement didn’t invent hypergamy, it just gave it a boost from the weak constrains of moral codes.

  2. @stuttie

    We should be entering the ridicule/shaming phase from the MSM in the next few years. Brace.

    It comes after the ‘ignore’ phase and before the ‘violent opposition’ phase. Which is followed by the ‘co-opt’ phase, if the movement survives the culling. Each has its difficulties

    In the ignore phase, the difficulty is getting the word out.
    Ridicule/shaming – doubt and radicalization
    Violent opposition – keeping your identity, or self, safe
    Co-opt – not getting co-opted and absorbed into the broader culture.

    And in all stages, we are helped by passion for truth and compassion – however expressed – for our fellow man.

  3. ” She makes little comments about how she’s never going to let me go, she casually talks about her obsession with knives and how that is one aspect she enjoys about the medical field. She’s only 5’4 and 105 lbs yet has the uncanny ability to move silently throughout the house. I was in the downstairs bathroom one night about 11pm taking a crap and when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she wasn’t making a sound it was like she was frozen. Scared the hell out of me. After asking her what she was doing she replied, “were you talking to a girl in there? Because if you were I was going to go upstairs and…” she stopped herself there. I’m going to have to be careful.”

    That sounds like something out of The Shining.
    Holy crap.

  4. Re BPD –
    As a good personal friend of SJF in real life, in fact, the “most interesting” guy he generously referred to me as, please bear with me as I share the longest comment I’ve made in the manosphere, a universe where I’ve lurked since 2007 and only infrequently commented short and occasionally pithy remarks. If it causes one guy out there somewhere to avoid getting involved with one of these crazy bitches, it will be worth the hours I spent composing it (INTJ’s have a hard time writing fast).

    Before steering into the cosmic mindfuck that has been my rendezvous with a BPD wife, let me begin by confirming to whatever doubters out there that SJF is not just a good man, he is in fact good at being a man. And uncommonly modest – he’s often stated that his wife outranks him by a full 3 SMV points. That’s bullshit. I know his wife, and she only outranks him by 2(that’s because he underrates himself, she is quite attractive).

    You younger guys, take heed. One of most annoying things I’ve listened to from some of the few people I’ve shared a bit of my nightmare with(I generally subscribe to the Lou Holtz school – don’t tell other people about your problems, as 80% of them don’t give a shit, and the other 20% are glad to hear you have them), is “didn’t you see this in her before you married her?!” Not only is it unproductive to go there, but the truth is, in my case, mostly no. For the first 17 months I dated her, I never saw her “Mr. Hyde” side once, not a single time. She was the perfect girlfriend. Pleasant, well-employed, hardworking, low maintenance, unspoiled, and an off-the-charts baseline libido(I guess that should have been a clue in and of itself). She was not as objectively pretty as most of the women I’ve been involved with, but more than made up for it with her spectacular God-given figure and sexual skills. Being with her was like being the star in the best porno flick I ever saw, every damned day.

    She eventually had one jealously-fueled outburst, directed at my platonic relationship with a female friend of mine, in which she exhibited tremendous rage, irrationality, and ridiculously disproportionate and inappropriate anger. It was the first time, and, as it turned out, the only time before our marriage that she showed the “sparks flying out of her eyes” rage, the employment of emotional reasoning, and we commenced in a long argument that was frustratingly circular, with her seemingly completely unable to process the points I attempted to get across. I had serious doubts about our future on that day. However, the following day, she explained that she had issues with jealousy due to her past trauma relating solely to what she experienced from her adulterous ex-husband(a story which I bought at the time). Afterwards, she again became her pleasant, sexually insatiable self.

    Yeah, I had a red flag. But it was brief, and seemed manageable. And I’d ask you older guys out there – have you ever known a single woman in your life really well that you didn’t see at least ONE red flag in, not one, that would give you some degree of pause as to her LTR potential? I still haven’t.

    Not knowing then what I know now, I married her. She had many good qualities, and her parents appeared excellent parental role models for a woman – they married young, had three daughters, and were still happily married into their 70’s. Her dad was ex-air force, the unchallenged head of the household, adored by his wife and daughters. Mom was pleasant, dutiful, an excellent cook, and very affectionate toward her husband. My wife was physically quite healthy, and longevity ran in her family(3 of 4 grandparents made it to 90+ and without chronic illness until near the end of their lives).
    And, for roughly the first year and a half of marriage, I couldn’t have been much happier. She was easy to get along with, and the sex remained outstanding. Scarcely a week went by when I didn’t ejaculate into her 20+ times. Honest to God. She wore hot lingerie to bed every evening, kept things fresh with some erotic role playing, and her desire was genuine and unflagging. I am not exaggerating in the slightest.

    Things went off the rails in the spring of 2014. The whole suite of the BPD portfolio. Something would set her off, and she’d do the jealous rage, the splitting. Stalking. Flyspecking my phone and computer. Gaslighting. Bizarre levels of anger. Alcohol use became alcohol abuse. Scheming to create scenarios which would create jealous situations. Zero empathy, unless it was for animals or even insects. Hundreds of vile, angry, vulgar voicemails and texts (I have quite the library of evidence). Bizarro accusations of my affairs, my purported internet dating, my pornography addiction, my correspondence with webcam girls, dalliances with girlfriends of hers, all bullshit. Life with her became intolerable unless we were fucking, the quality and frequency of which remained superb.

    I made the decision to give her chances to improve, through therapy with multiple professionals, rehab, AA, and immersing myself in reading everything I could find on the subjects of BPD, the other cluster B’s, and substance abuse. When her problems began to cascade out of control, I was 57 years old, I’d only been married to her for a year and a half, and I was hopeful that I could employ the problem-solving skillset that has served my reasonably well in business, professional, and social career. I thought it was possible that she could, with my help, improve, and if she didn’t, I could at least look back in retrospect and be at peace with the knowledge that I gave it my best shot.

    It didn’t work. It was exhausting to experience firsthand how a lifetime of wisdom and the application of reason is simply no match for crazy. She drove me out of the house with her rage on a number of evenings. The “boundaries” that we jointly established in sessions with her therapist meant absolutely nothing to her and she violated them whenever her jealousy was triggered. She got off the alcohol and onto abusing prescription drugs, both professionally prescribed and bootlegged. The final straws involved her physically assaulting me and shortly thereafter her being charged with operating a motor vehicle under the influence of drugs (atavan) and spending a night in jail.

    Is she sick, or is she truly evil? I’ve reconciled to the fact that I’ll never really know.

    I should have bailed sooner.

    You guys who haven’t studied a bit about personality disorders, especially BPD/NPD/HPD should do so. I knew shit about these things before it became my personal hell. Through my ignorance, I’ve endured a level of mental torture that I never would have imagined. Learn the characteristics of these disorders, and if you see them, GTFO. Not doing so can cost you your life. The time my wife physically assaulted me, in the state she was in, I have zero doubt that if a knife had been handy, she would have stabbed me with it.

    Unless there’s a blowup, my divorce will finally occur next week. I filed back in September, and it seems like a hundred years ago.

    Though I suspect I’ll recover from this ordeal, it will take some time. For now, I remain in a pretty dark place, and can totally identify with much of the MGTOW rhetoric. I see an attractive woman, and I see evil. Today, I think I’d get nauseous at the smell of a vagina. But I’m hopeful that this will pass as I get this painful chapter into the rearview mirror of my life.

    Thanks to many of you for your sage commentary on this site.

  5. @Dragonfly

    Your husband does rather demonstrate that he hasn’t been in a dangerously toxic relationship before with his reply. That’s not a bad thing; I mean, I would give people shit advice about how to deal with, say, a hostage circumstance because I’ve never been in one or had to deal with one. And I hope I will always give shit advice about that lol. But I bet there’s lots of counterintuitive stuff that can help you survive a circumstance like that that isn’t obvious if you haven’t lived through it.

    I know you’re just trying to help by posting what he says, since you see him being a good mentor of men. He probably is! It’s just, if he met Softek in person and said that, at the same time he’d be doing things like giving a roguish smile and clapping him on the shoulder and doing all sorts of subcommunications that he isn’t consciously aware of that basically tell the guy that he cares about him. And it also transfers that state to the other guy so he can learn by example a better, more confident, amused mindset about the whole thing.

    As with most guys who are ‘naturals’ with something, often the words are the least important part. This works in pickup too. The words only become important if you’ve consciously studied something in depth.

  6. My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity. Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.

    It’s just like with a woman who stays with an abusive man – there’s something wrong with her to keep staying. She has incredibly low self-esteem and values whatever “significance” she thinks he brings to the relationship. A man who stays with a bpd girl doesn’t understand his own value.

  7. @Niko – Right, so you weren’t actually talking about “in-group preference”, you were talking about fraternity and male bonding. Try learning more about the words you use.

  8. @Niko – Clicked post when I didn’t mean to. This statement is an absolute hash of nonsense and gets right at your confusion:

    “Whereas I agree with your premise that men should not believe that they deserve better and just wait for it to fall from the sky; I believe a man of today should believe that he is deserving and fight to get it for himself.”

    First off, stick with what I’m saying if you are going to counter my comments. I never said that men shouldn’t wait for “it to fall from the sky”. You have mangled my meaning utterly – not sure if that’s intentional or a language issue for you. I was speaking about the idea that the world is or SHOULD BE fair. This idea comes directly from the FI’s equalism, and informs the Blue Pill in every way.

    As such, no man should ever “fight to get it for himself”. Yawn, this is pretty boring. I ask again, Niko – have you actually read Rollo’s Best of Year 1 and 2 posts? Your commentary reveals over and over and over again that you have not internalized it, fyi.

  9. I don’t have much experience with bpd chicks, so this is a learning moment ( one of many here ) for me. You guys are phenomenal.


    A man that’s with a bpd chick is not the same as a woman in an abusive relationship. There are different mechanics at work for men. the expectations for men are different in the relationship because men are not expected to flee at the first ( or tenth ) sign of trouble. We are problem solvers, sometimes to our own detriment.

    And then there’s love. We love differently. I’ve witnessed women turn off their love and affection as if it were a light switch many times. I’ve yet to see a man that was truly in love have the same capacity, unless he has been made aware beforehand of the DOOM that may await him if he doesn’t cut ties.

    Simply, men love more deeply.

    IMO it’s not a lack of self esteem or a ” lack ” of anything. It’s more due to men having maybe too much love, compassion and finally, sense of duty.

  10. “My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity.”

    I agree, of course. But I can understand how a man might become embroiled by the bait and switch tactics of an unstable BPD type. Especially over a length of time when there is a real emotional investment (that would be when she’d take a turn for the worst, I’d assume).
    Mike is pretty smart about that stuff too, but he stayed with his ex girlfriend for three years and she was pretty toxic and crazy. Eventually he finally left, but she actually grab ahold of his leg and physically tried to stop him from walking away. He actually walked away while she held on and he dragged her down the hall.

  11. @Scribblerg – since you want it word for word.

    “What you struggle to describe about how feminism is inculcated in schools and society is much better and more completely described via Rollo’s concept of the “Feminine Inmperative”.”

    Yes, fair. I never disagreed with that concept – although imperative* . Who says because I will not cite every single example I do not understand how feminism has affected the school system, social norms etc? Of course I do… It is irrelevant to the point.

    “Your comment on male ingroup preferences flies in the face of the known science. In fact men display very little ingroup preference, especially when compared to that of women. Some googling will reveal this. Particularly funny was the NPR treatment of the grounbreaking study which revealed it – female ingroup preferences were okay as they were a reaction to oppression. Neglected were the horrific truths that women exercise ingroup preferences in hiring, promotion and buying whereas men do not. This is an important fact which any man working with or doing business with women should recognize.”

    In group preference can be defined as preference within a group. Perhaps I should have defined the group. There is no such thing as the male collective if you prefer to put it as follows. Whether you want to call that fraternity or gangs which was I believe the reference I used in my video (as per the use from Jack Donovan’s book) it is irrelevant to the point. Men within those groups will show in group preference for that particular group.

    “As for male suffering, while I of course agree that boys, men, fathers and masculinity itself is shamed and denigrated in the popular culture, that is only part of the story. Another aspect of the problem of “equaliism” is its implication of fairness and I think many men internalize a sense that struggling in the rough and tumble competition of life is somehow unfair when in fact all species compete and struggle for resources and reproduction etc. Competiton and struggle and barriers are the nature of life, not an exception. Men need to realize that and get that as part of their Red Pill awakening. As I advise do another TRMer recently, why not you! Why shouldn’t your life suck? Why do you think you shouldn’t face “unfair” barriers and opposition?”

    I completely agree to this point. In my videos I reflect in part the unfairness that people feel in this life. Should that feeling not exist? It is in part envy and in part pity for their situation. If used correctly it can turn to motivation to push themselves forward. The feeling of unfairness is not a necessarily something bad. Wallowing in self-pity is. Which is exactly what I am trying to say here is: fight for yourself. I was not dealt a great hand in terms of family or whatever else, I did alright and still do. There was always a feeling of damn – they have it easier and life is unfair. But the difference is I realised very young that so what, nothing I can do to change it, there’s no reason to care about something you cannot change. This was the attitude in part that I tried to push forward when it came to female nature and certain MGTOW sections that lived in self-pitty and hate.

    Also dude… I have read both books, read many of the posts here but of course not all. I do have a very busy life. Though I agree with Rollo on many things, I do not take Rollo’s word as the bible and have thoughts of my own.

    I did not intend to misrepresent what you said, if I did, I apologise. I simply summarised what I did understand and tried to explain what I meant. That’s all.


  12. “Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.”

    Less so when you consider who he’s defending.

    Try not to be petty. You’re capable.

  13. @Niko – Note I said that you haven’t internalized what Rollo has written, which makes me wonder if you’ve read it. As for you offering some worthy counterpoint to his, lol. Perhaps you are one of those YouTubers who views negative comments and criticism as trolling and not substantive regardless. Let me be clear – the vid you posted is not informative, well conceived or compelling. Your commentary demonstrates PurplePillishness nonstop, and doesn’t even do so in an entertaining or informative way. I actually went back and watched more of your stuff after Rollo highlighted you, hoping that I had misunderstood you are caught you on a bad day. Nope, your content is mush. Going forward, don’t post one of your droning, boring videos here as something of value if you don’t want to have it taken to task. I frankly have no idea what Rollo sees in you, but of course that’s his affair.

    Get back to your “busy life” now…You could save yourself a lot of time by taking your channel down, fyi, as I did. Your contributions to the Manosphere are not that great and you would get a big chunk of your life back. I decided 1.5 years ago to do that and to only comment and participate here as its the only site that is intellectually well grounded and not chock a block with flying monkeys. This discipline allows me to spend very little time LARPing and instead to focus on my real life. The business I own, the companies I have equity in, my original music, the political work I do, social life and fitness. It’s great to limit yourself online intentionally and I think all men dedicated to self-improvement should do so.

    Last. The intelligence bar is set much higher here than the rest of the Manosphere, and commenters like me enforce those standards ruthlessly. Be another bozo on the bus here, and try to learn instead of teach as what you are attempting to explicate isn’t worth learning for the most part. And don’t complain about my tone – you are the one setting yourself up as having some alternate views worth considering. I considered them and find them wanting. Just be another man here, for your own growth, we’ll be a-okay without your “teaching”, I promise.

  14. @Niko

    I see you’ve meet our ferocious ankle biting Chihuahua, scribblerg. You might have to shake him off your leg every once in a while.

  15. @Softek

    “Internals. The real bull work I have is facing myself and overcoming this pussy response to everything — letting everyone walk all over me. I’m dealing with a situation at the same time as all this mess….a client that doesn’t want to pay me for my work, and also expects me to take it back and redo the job for nothing. Everyone I’ve asked, including my friend who’s been in the business for 50 years, said he’s a lunatic and is being completely unreasonable and/or trying to take me for a ride. My work came out beautifully.

    That shouldn’t even be an afterthought. A proper response would’ve been to demand my payment and also refuse to give his piece back to him until he gave it to me. The situation is ridiculous.

    And yet here I am stressing out over this fuckwit and letting him take advantage of me, just the same as I’m stressing over this relationship I’m in and focusing completely on her and not at all on myself.”

    How are you communicating with this dude? Calls or text/email? My advice is to just post the exchanges here and let the forum give you specific, prescriptive advice on what you should say to him like so many guys do with text exchanges with girls. Just change some words here and there in case he googles your exact conversation (which is not likely anyway).

  16. @Dragonfly: “My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity.”

    Are you suggesting that North Korean brainwashers had “sexual experience” with their POW victims, and that the victims desired it?

    Or, alternatively, is it possible that due to a lack of relevant experience you have entirely missed the point?

    1. @kfg, Dragonfly is only defending the wisdom of her husband here because she’s invested in the choice she made to pair with. While that’s admirable, her blind faith in his simplistic judgement does her brother no favors in dealing with his BPD predicament.

      Mr. Dragonfly value signals, she amplifies that signal to reaffirm her decision to marry him, and the hamster runs from there.

  17. @All – And now you’ve witnessed Andy’s inability to articulate an actual argument. Just for the record, Andy’s admitted on these pages that he’s pathologically narcissistic and anti-social and that he’s working on it. I’m not, however, I do deal rhetorical, polemical deathblows to preening pseudo-intellectuality.

    @Andy, I don’t “anklebite” – I punch directly in the face as I did here. It’s you who’s the master of cheapshots, but I get it, you are working on that and I wish you luck with it.

  18. No one is sure if the rapey scene in High Plains drifter comes from Ernest Tidyman (Shaft, Oscar for French Connection screenplay), or Dean Riesner (Dirty Harry, famous script doctor). I suspect Tidyman since the writer/reporter loved his vices: women, drinking, gambling, stealing.

    “If you wanted to get acquainted why didn’t you just say so?” See any shit tests here?


  19. “Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.”

    It’s only funny to you because you haven’t personally experienced the damage a BPD is capable of. I have.

    If I’m angry or defensive it’s only because I want to spare men like Camaro, Softek and your brother the same experience you and hubby so casually dismiss.

    After your brother commits suicide then we can talk about how it was all about you thinking it’s all about prioritizing sex over self-esteem. It’ll make for some interesting conversation after you deliver his eulogy.

  20. @Niko – No, I don’t want to even engage you anymore, it’s not worth it. Get back to your “busy life”, please. As I am.

  21. @Softek

    Sorry to see you in this state, man. It really can look like there’s no hope sometimes, but if you keep on you eventually end up somewhere.

    Your self-evaluation is very good. I would expect that from you, you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about your life and brain and shit. Yup, the central issue isn’t really your circumstances, it’s your internal self-concept. And also, yes, you materially are much farther along now than you were even a few months ago. That’s important to remember.

    It seems like involvement with a cluster-b is just a rite of passage for guys with core esteem issues. They hunt for guys like that, and so if one is ‘on the market’ long enough he’s sure to get snagged by one. It’s a step in your growth; the next will be better. I went from batshit BPD to ‘kinda cluster b-ish’ in my second relationship. And now I spin plates and if a girl is going to be any more serious than that for me she’s gonna get vetted expertly and vigorously.

    So I pushed back against SJF’s characterization of how a borderline girl can be good for a man earlier, but in your circumstance I’d actually try to frame it like that and actualize it like that.

    Oh, and if it’s not already clear: SPIN. PLATES. Who gives a fuck if she’s mad or leaves as a result, that’s how it goes and not being OK with that completely destroys the frame of non-exclusivity you’re giving. I know, easy to say.

    Finally, it’s important to recognize your personality makeup and its foibles. You can always improve but your Achilles heel will likely always be depression and self-doubt. Naturally try to reduce frequency/severity of these hitting with internal work and external circumstance, but realize that even as you accomplish more and more that self-doubt, ennui, and anxiety will try to assert itself again. When it does, recognize it for the phantom it is. Like, ‘Hello, crippling self-doubt. Would you like a cup of tea? It’s been nearly a year since I’ve seen you! Yes, let’s wallow in self-recriminations for a few minutes, for old times’ sake. Not really relevant to my current circumstance, hah, but one must remember your roots. Alright then, time for you to be going – I’m ever so busy doing epic things.’

    I mean, I’m being silly here but you see the trick. You’re making the self-doubt an external force that doesn’t reflect ‘you’ rather than actually feeling like you really are a piece of shit. That voice doesn’t tell the truth, it’s not real, its a demon in your head and it’s just part of who you are to have to ignore it/beat it off occasionally.

  22. Forge said: “So I pushed back against SJF’s characterization of how a borderline girl can be good for a man earlier, but in your circumstance I’d actually try to frame it like that and actualize it like that.”

    “I mean, I’m being silly here but you see the trick. You’re making the self-doubt an external force that doesn’t reflect ‘you’ rather than actually feeling like you really are a piece of shit. That voice doesn’t tell the truth, it’s not real, its a demon in your head and it’s just part of who you are to have to ignore it/beat it off occasionally.”

    It is January 22.

    Think back to one year ago.

    We have the Softek that was involuntary incel. Unsure of himself or his sexual strategy. Near suicidal. Talked off the edge of that by a guy on this blog that really cares about other men here in a two hour Skype session. A guy that is not afraid to tell a man what he needs to hear. (Guess who? Hint, he changed the course of my life with one email).

    The Softek that wasn’t showering for weeks at a time and being shit on by his employer. Bewildered.

    Think to today. Softek got off his ass in the past year and got some agency. He became a man that got to experience the essence of masculine ecstacy–release from constraint. At times. You can see it in his writing. It is coherent and congruent and not too rambling.

    I sense he has options. He threw off a few of buffers and he is not afraid to live on his edge. Sure he needs more work and fewer buffers to his psyche. I’m sure he has a lot of blue pill extinction bursts that are tormenting him.
    But he has more ability to control his circumstances and change the direction of his life.

    Excellent point that the past year is a positive. How exactly are things worse that they have been for the last 27 years.

    I don’t feel the lack of agency these days, but I know the feeling. It is terrible. The feeling needs to not limit you putting one foot in front of the other and Forging on. Once again, don’t seek a completion in life. Softek, you are a better man than last year. You know how to write a script. No it’s not easy. But you have more tools now. Keep your self esteem up and keep positive.

  23. @ Rollo Tomassi

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts about BPD women, especially the erroneous way other men respond or advise them. I knew (know?) men like this and never knew what to say when I witnessed this behavior. If a man hasn’t taken the Red Pill he’s not going to understand why or how another man can be manipulated by a BPD woman beyond the sex.

    I doubt they’ll do it, but if I get the chance I’ll refer them to that post and hope it’s not all lost for them.

  24. @Dragonfly

    Rollo said:”There is much more to his circumstance than valuing sex over his sanity and your simplism is only lacking him into it.”

    “If I’m angry or defensive it’s only because I want to spare men like Camaro, Softek and your brother the same experience you and hubby so casually dismiss.”

    The problem with the statement that your husband made in the current narrative is that it was trite. Very trite. Forge was right. You can do better. (But that is not an invitation to blather on. You are in a forum and at a figurative dinner table discussing things. Please respect the narrative and the dignity of the other guests at the table)

  25. Lose the frame, lose the game !!

    When i read the BPD experiences of you all, i must be happy not to have met such a creature (yet).

    The rape scene of Clint Eastwood was very nice. That’s the only way to treat such a BPD woman…and then leave her !!

    But like Yareally said it before…the risks nowadays are way too hight. Thus, keeping distance is the only way in my opinion

  26. Rollo, I agree that getting snared into a relationship with a BPD woman isn’t necessarily about self esteem or sex (although, from what I’ve seen secondhand I would think she would have to bring something pretty special to the table for a guy to put up with that). There are about as many guys with BPD girlfriend/ex wife/wife stories in the fighter pilot community as there are heavy drinkers. They definitely didn’t lack for either self esteem or sex (at least until they got entangled, THEN they had depression and self esteem issues).
    That said, I don’t why any version of “run away from that! She’s a trainwreck!” would be actively harmful.

  27. @All

    What scribblerg wrote January 22nd, 2016 at 8:31 am bears elaborating on.

    Recently an incident came up in a group of my IRL guy friends where one of the guys had an insolent moment and told one of the more prominent acquaintances to fuck off.

    He reasons that a guy has to stand up for himself and defend himself (even if physically like in a bar fight) because that is what being a real man. In reality, he is burning bridges and it has had a pin-ball effect on some tremendously high value friendships in the quality group. He’s OK with that saying that the bridge has already been burnt and that he’s not going to be reconstructing it. IMHO–big mistake. Big downside to limit upside. If he were to recant, he faces little downside in the group and tremendous upside. He will be dealing with this group on multiple occaisions in the future and it is a group in which he has a high investment in the pursuit and passions of that venue (it’s a sportsman’s group).

    Keep in mind that there are groups of men on a small scale, medium scale and large scale. Just like Choski and Scribbler were talking about upstream here.

    Adolescent men in high school and in a college frat environment have a skill-set that is one dimensional. But as a man grows more mature he needs a full complement of other tactical masculine virtues.

    Strength (physical strength)
    Honor (among other men)

    That’s three other dimensions in a like minded masculine group.

    A mature man can have a dust-up. But not be afraid to shake hands and have a beer with his recent adversary in a group. And move on to continue the cohesiveness and high upside that that group can accomplish.

    My friend in real life said, in reply, “Oh yeah, there’s only one time in a hundred where that can happen”. That two guys can make up and move on after a dust-up.

    “Precisely!”, I said and you should strive to be in the 1%. It is worth it.

    Andy, this is a masculine forum of mostly like-minded guys. Were on the same team. Move beyond the frat boy skill set. If you disagree with my assessment, then you haven’t passed my test. Good luck with that. That’s not a threat, it’s an invitation.

    (And of course this has no bearing on how feminine individuals interact with the masculine or vice-versa here.)

  28. @Forge “Less so when you consider who he’s defending.
    Try not to be petty. You’re capable.”

    Considering the way some of the commenters humiliate and degrade each other’s choices and experiences here all the time, and Rollo doesn’t bat an eyelash, my husband’s words are light in comparison.

    Last year when I had barely given birth to our second son, Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways – attacking everything about me, calling my life shit, calling me all sorts of names, all while I was trying to merely comment (agreeing no less) and take care of a few weeks old baby in our family. I had all kinds of postpartum hormones going on at that time as well, very little sleep, etc. so apparently just having a different opinion is pettiness, but resorting to personal insults, cussing, and attacks was completely fine with him.

    Rollo resorting to cussing at me, telling me to “fuck off” just for having a different viewpoint a couple of months ago about some of his commenters than he has, is the definition of pettiness. It’s no different from Roosh’s knee-jerk reaction to Rollo when Rollo disagreed with him. But of course, feel free to disagree. I’m definitely out.

    1. Oh I’m sorry pumpkin did I not mention the heat in the kitchen?

      I’ve also backed you up on many occasions, particularly when you first arrived here. But what you deliberately ignore is the context of both my agreeing with you in one instance and disagreeing with you in another – and that primarily out of concern for your brother.

      Your cow-eyed evangelical simplisms and casual dismissals of very real, potentially life damaging issues for men only highlight your lack of understanding.

      Your first impulse to post here in God knows how long was to amplify your husband’s value signaling ignorance with “use your big head instead of your little one.”

      I told you to fuck off for much the same reason on your last comment; you are so far removed from understanding men’s experience in your daily life that your simple jingoisms seem like sage advice.

      As far as Roosh goes, you’re still not banned and neither do I ban commenters for responding to you. Your comments and anyone else’s are always welcome, just don’t expect postpartum hormones to excuse them. No man on this forum would.

  29. @ Liz

    “That said, I don’t why any version of “run away from that! She’s a trainwreck!” would be actively harmful.”

    No one at all wouldn’t say, and indeed no one didn’t say run away from that. It is how it is said. The subcomms are are there and they are very clear to see. Salt in wounds. Dragonfly’s comment from her husband was very, very insensitive (and terribly second hand). And her explanations for it were nonsensical.

    Hence, the push-back.

  30. Woman as victim. Men shamed for doing nothing.

    Maybe we could decorate this site in pink and make it safe for everyone.

    Or stay out of the locker room if you can’t handle the talk.

  31. @Dragonfly January 22nd, 2016 at 10:12 am

    You entered a masculine space in which TRM has a certain Frame. It is this blogs frame. And you proceeded to keep your own Frame in your comments. Frame is not power. And you did not bring the group into your Frame. It happens.

  32. “when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she wasn’t making a sound it was like she was frozen. Scared the hell out of me. After asking her what she was doing she replied, “were you talking to a girl in there? Because if you were I was going to go upstairs and…” she stopped herself there.”


  33. Niko
    In group preference can be defined as preference within a group. Perhaps I should have defined the group. There is no such thing as the male collective if you prefer to put it as follows. Whether you want to call that fraternity or gangs which was I believe the reference I used in my video (as per the use from Jack Donovan’s book) it is irrelevant to the point. Men within those groups will show in group preference for that particular group.

    There’s your problem, in your definition of “ingroup preference”. What you are describing is “SUBgroup preference”. It’s real and valid – men in combat fight “for” their comrades, for their SUBgroup, not for abstractions like “liberty” or “motherhood & apple pie” – but it is not at all what the term “ingroup preference” means in the literature.

    It’s not “preference within a group”, it’s “preference for my group over others”, and yes it is related to tribalism, but in this context it’s “preference for my sex vs. the other sex”. Men do not have any ingroup preference the way women do in this sense.

    The research literature defines “group” in the broadest terms; women have a preference for other women in many situations, irrespective of other factors. So a woman in Human Resources will be likely to support any random woman at MegaCorp in a disagreement with any man, for example. This is true irrespective of color, religion, tribal affiliation, etc.
    I could spin a nice EvoPsych “just so story” explaining this, but not right now.

    Your premise is wrong. Therefore you can’t build on top of it with any logic.

  34. @Dragonfly

    You and your husband don’t know shit about what we’re talking about. Don’t comment on the subject of dealing with a Cluster-B female ever again. I’ve experienced it personally. I’ve spoken with multiple psychological professionals about the subject. For the record, BPD is something professionals usually won’t touch due to the level of manipulation they will drag you through. It’s like when a chemist tells you there’s chemicals they won’t touch… that’s shit you, as the 100% completely and totally uneducated layman need to just keep your mouth shut about and listen.

    It is a situation you clearly lack any remote grasp on. There’s plenty of times you have useful input here, however your input on this subject is at best worthless and at worst counterproductive.

  35. @Rollo: “Dragonfly is only defending the wisdom of her husband here because she’s invested in the choice she made to pair with.”

    She is relating it because she’s also doing her own virtue signalling here.

  36. @sun Wukong
    ” For the record, BPD is something professionals usually won’t touch due to the level of manipulation they will drag you through.”

    Agree. Even if the patient hits on 20 out of 21 markers for BPD, many professionals are reluctant to make that diagnosis. Perhaps owing to the dire track record of treatment for this disorder.

    Speaking of the term “disorder”, Dr. Tara Palmatier (AVFM’s resident expert) has remarked that she doesn’t like the term “personality disorders”, preferring “character disorders”, as she believes those with PD’s truly have defective character.
    She has further opined that BPD, in particular, could well be described as the female expression of Antisocial Personality Disorder. That I can buy.

  37. “….Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways…”


    Yeah, Glenn can be like that sometimes.

    Too bad they don’t make band-aids for feelings.

  38. @ SJF

    ” A mature man can have a dust-up. But not be afraid to shake hands and have a beer with his recent adversary in a group. And move on to continue the cohesiveness and high upside that that group can accomplish.”

    This absolutely.

    One of the hallmarks of a true friend is that he will be one of the first ones to pull your coattails and/or tell you when you’re full of shit. Friends like that, ones you can ” dust up ” with and remain close as ever, that’s a treasure.

  39. Rollo,

    I honestly do not believe women are able to grasp the concept of Life and Death circumstances when it comes to men. It will usually be distilled down to some level of triteness.

    Can we really expect a female to objectively look at something she has no true concept of? And it doesn’t help that she chooses to parrot her hubby’s insensitivity and lack of knowledge on the subject.

    Par for the course.

    What we discuss here is always proven and amplified when women ” try ” to help.

  40. Dr. T and Paul Elam did several video hangouts about their book “Say Goodbye to Crazy” that I found very helpful. I haven’t read the book, but I imagine it is similar to the conversations.

    Whatever you do in dealing with these creatures, keep people who love and understand you close, show no mercy, and do not despair. Be prepared to be labelled a psychopathic abuser because you do not yield to manipulation. Stay strong! The only way you win with these people is to not have them in your life, not have them know where you live, and not have anything or anyone they can manipulate you with (i.e. children). #21MoreMonths

  41. @Blaximus

    ScribblerG is a friend of mine and he’s not full of shit.

    And I think Rollo would have his back in a second as it relates to comments on The Rational Male.

    Scribbler has show the four tactical virtues of the masculine here many times. Strength, courage, mastery and honor among men (no matter what anyone thinks on the last one).

    Us 52-54 year-olds have a wise perspective on why that is. We’ve been through some trying and experience-building times. And we perhaps don’t suffer fools gladly.

  42. @SJF

    To be clear, I love me some scribblerG.

    You know, honestly? I didn’t think I’d live this long – half a century plus. Men in my family, some had a tendency to burn out quick.

    But I definitely cosign the ” trying and experience-building times “.

    There was a time in my life when I found myself on the Garden State Parkway down by Seaside Heights. I was driving my baby blue 1976 Caddy coupe deville at a nice 120+ mph clip, when ” problems ” I was having in life made me aim the car at a toll booth. Thankfully I relented at the very last second.

    Surviving to middle age should come with wisdom that is usually hard won.

    Now I’m pretty damn glad to be 54.

  43. @Sun Wukong

    Imagine if every single time you saw a chance to control someone, even if it meant psychologically destroying them, you were cool with it so long as you got what you wanted. That’s what these women are. Sex is just one tool in the massive arsenal they utilize. Gross over simplifications like “Stop thinking with your dick.” demonstrate a complete and total misunderstanding of the nature of the beast.

    Dragonfly is demonstrating the female default to pretend as if the female tool of psychological manipulation does not exist. She’s using quotes from her husband to signal that it’s o.k. for her to ignore the power women have over men, as her husband is all too glad to shift the blame onto the man being manipulated.

    Dragonfly, your FI is showing.

  44. @Farmlegend

    After all is said and done (which won’t happen, and us masculine types don’t seek a completion in life) the glass may be less full but you still have your support groups to go to. After your short stint with MGTOW, I hear there are some decent women that show up to the meetings.

  45. @kfg

    ya, i mean…i ought to know, i dealt with an insane bpd hot chick not long after getting a little success in the game.

    just crazy shit hot-cold.

    i didn’t even realize it was bpd drama until after everything had flamed out and i managed to spent a little bit of time away from her and recover my sanity. pretty sure i wrote about it a bit at the time — and it’s pathetic!

    i was a mess….punching walls and shit during fights….leave work middle of the day to go have sex even tho we had just fucked in the morning….sex and fights intermingled to where your emotions are completely fried.

    it was just crazy. and she could just shrug all this shit off like nothing…’oh come on, you know im a little devil/savage/whatever.’

    but it was a learning experience. she actually said something that, at the time, was her just taunting me ‘in a few years you’re just going to look back and wonder why you let some girl run you like this, — so true.

    really just exposed my inner bitch and my weakpoints. and after that, they were just easier to see.

    my solution is to just walk away as soon as someone tries to push a reality that isn’t mine. there are other people, other women, others. why spend time around bad feelings?

    sorry if that’s rambling but im also trying to set up the ultimate friday night….gonna be fucken legendary, im so goddamned stoked.

  46. I see what the feminine is doing here. Trying to turn a complete dyad into an incomplete (or no) dyad. BPD and men as victims is a complete and utter dyad that begs for “completion”. Yes, men are victims here.

    Women use dyadic completion when claiming that men are immoral in certain attitudes,acts and sexual strategies because there has to be a victim. (Via the FI and social conventions they use moral condemnation of the masculine to imply victims in red pill and game.)

    They also try to imply as totally incomplete the diad when men are harmed by women.

    Dragonfly was attempting to make the BPD (and the harm it does to individual men) dyad indeniably incomplete. She tried to slot no victim in the dyad. Even worse she blamed men’s dicks if men were harmed.That’s called changing the subject of the narrative.


    The technical name for this psychological link between judgments of immorality and perceptions of harm is “dyadic completion.” Whether liberal or conservative, people understand immorality though a universal template — a dyad of perpetrator and victim. Most immoral acts have a “complete” dyad, such as murder (murderer and murdered), theft (thief and thieved) and abuse (abuser and abused). But with many morally controversial acts, such as those involving adult pornography, prostitution, drugs or homosexuality, the victims seem less obvious or absent altogether.

    When we encounter such an “incomplete” dyad, we tend to slot in a victim. Such victims can be friends, family, future generations or the soul of the perpetrator. Very often they are children, because of their vulnerability and sensitivity to suffering. It is no accident that moralists of all kinds beseech others to “think of the children.”

    Of course, the phenomenon of dyadic completion does not mean that homosexuality (or anything else that is morally controversial) causes actual harm. What it does mean is that the notion of “harmless wrongs” or “victimless crimes” is more complicated that you might think. Although logically possible, victimless crimes are psychologically rare. Perceptually speaking, if you see something as wrong, you almost certainly see it as harmful. The absence of victims occurs only in the absence of immorality.

    In the 19th century, for example, masturbation was widely considered immoral — and harmful. According to Dr. Adam Clarke, a medical authority of the day, “neither the plague, nor war, nor small-pox, nor similar diseases, have produced results so disastrous to humanity as the pernicious habit of Onanism.” But now that masturbation has lost its moral stigma, it no longer is seen to victimize anyone.

    Liberals and conservatives may disagree on specific issues, but fundamentally they have the same moral mind. Both demonstrate dyadic completion. Conservatives may see immorality and harm in homosexuality and gun control, and liberals may see immorality and harm in religion in schools and genetically modified foods.

    The key message of our research, and an important step in improving moral dialogue, is to realize that perceptions of harm are psychologically real to the perceiver of immorality. They are not merely concocted to antagonize those with opposing views or to further inflame the passions of sympathizers.

    Emily and Insanitybytes tried that attempt at dyadic completion shit all the time here.

    “Red pill and Game are immoral in the eyes of the beholder so the FI, women and the Church therefore must be the victims of harm by men and masculinity.”

  47. lol… yet more follow-up from the uber chick.


    Her neighbor Ruby Ferro told CBS4’s Natalia Zea the behavior she saw in the video is nothing like the young lady she has known since she was a child.

    “I just got surprised because they’re a beautiful family,” said Ferro. “Anjali and her sister, they’re good girls. They’re quiet people. They never have a problem.”

    Ferro is urging those who are basing their opinions of her from the one video to have a heart.

    “You could be a beautiful person but one day you have a problem, the job or the family or the boyfriend and you change that day. But that doesn’t mean you’re a bad person,” said Ferro.

    “I just don’t understand how the woman I know could act like that, don’t judge her!”… meanwhile the Taco Bell guy from Newport Beach who assaulted his uber driver was fired without a second thought. *sigh*, we live in a time of pandemic of white knighting.

  48. @Blax

    “To be clear, I love me some ScribblerG.”

    I didn’t mean to imply you, which I inadvertently did. I meant to refer to some certain others.

  49. “But that doesn’t mean you’re a bad person”

    But it does mean someone is trying to un-complete the dyad. Trash the hell out of an Uber driver and you are a bad person is a complete dyad.

  50. I think that Dragonflys comment shows in this instance she is the one letting her dick do her thinking for her,and then she spouts it off.Don’t realy know her but maybe she is better off letting his little head think for her big one and then just be quiet about it.Just sayin.

  51. YaReally and gang – Quick FR – first night last night from January Going Out Week.

    Had a long day – date with an online girl (29, HB7-7.5, petite redhead). Said she wanted an “alpha male in and out of the bedroom” in her profile.

    Won’t bother with details except to say I had to go out later so only planned it as a quick drink, not to take her home. I wanted to focus mainly on lasering, voice tonality and sexualizing and leading the interaction (as opposed to trying for the kiss etc) and it worked really well. She was good fun to hang with and I really started to see the benefits of lasering for the first time ever (she kept saying she was blushing whenever I lasered her for more than a few seconds).

    As YaReally has pointed out – I hardly touched her (right towards the end I pulled her in to me to cuddle up on the couch – zero resistance, shortly before kissing her, but for like 90 min of a two hour date, we were opposite ends of the couch).

    Then I went to kiss her on the neck but she actually turned in for the kiss herself.

    Sexual talk went well too – we were talking about threesomes..I was stroking her tits a bit and making comments like how they were distracting me from what she said and she loved it. Didn’t overdo the kissing cos don’t want to trigger ASD for next time.

    I think setting the frame early was useful. Usually when I meet a girl for a date I go and give her a hug..now I’m going to start pulling them in for a hug (she didn’t automatically come in so I literally opened my arms when we met and said “give me a hug” and looked her in the eye till she did). Then as we walked to the bar, I did my usual thing of stopping the girl, checking her out and saying “sexy legs” – but this time I locked eyes, lasered her and said it in a soft voice and she replied with “thank you” the same way..again, big diff to how I normally say it.

    Basically a good first date and hopefully I’ll get her straight to mine for Netflix and chill next week. I’m not saying much about the conversation because it was my standard script – it was the surrounding stuff that was really different. Plus I teased her mercilessly and did more push pull than I usually do (eg when she said she couldn’t cook, I physically pushed her away – while laughing – and went “Noo! We’re done!”. She kept giving me compliments..how she liked my grey hair, how 36 is the perfect age etc (she also, very unusually for a 29 year old, doesn’t seem to be looking for an LTR).

    I’m mainly happy that I am starting to see results with lasering and voice tonality (slower and softer than normal – sometimes I was wondering if she could actually hear me, but she did) even without much kino. Also was good to see the eye-dilation as a sign of attraction (it happened VERY early – first 10 min) and then later on all the touching my thighs stuff, plus the much more subtle biting her lip, and stroking her hand with her own thumb in a kind of sensual way..around this point I knew I was going in for the kiss. As we walked back to the car I was stroking her ass and rating it and she loved it again..

    Good makeout to say good bye..I ended first of course. I pulled her in sharply to me on the street and you could SEE her eyes sparkle as she felt the dominance – I think for chicks that feeling in that moment is like the flash we get when looking at a set of fantastic tits or something. Then kissed her, holding her face and then briefly her neck – again, she liked it. I accused her of turning me on by pressing her body against me – again, that soft, sensual voice with EC..and you could almost see a kind of mischievous but turned on look in her face…

    I did go out with my wings after that but I had a red-eye flight the previous night and was so exhausted I was slurring my words and losing my train of thought even without booze. So I left in half an hour even though it was a good venue and good wings (I got through the date on coffee, but it faded before I went out next)

  52. @ Culum,
    If that is a “quick” FR, then a long one would be a men’s novel. You wrote it pretty well. My proof is that even though I am having sex almost every day with my pretty good looking wife, I am getting cabin fever just reading it. 🙂

    Separately, Re: BPD women,
    I have either been lucky, or somehow wired with defensive alarms. I dated a hot blonde who was a high paid sales rep at a high tech firm about 18 years ago (I was about 30) and after letting me feel her up on an all day date, she teased me (though she thought, but my little head has never controlled my big head) both verbally and with touching, e.g., “I look great in a thong!”. So I was in no hurry and plating (though I didn’t know what plating was and I didn’t do it well for sure). I sort of let my guard down and just went to talk to her at her work lobby and she tried this mental mind game crap that just led me to snap. I said, “We’re done!” and walked off. She literally didn’t believe me and it took her 3-4 weeks and many rejections, during which time I am sure I could have had her any way I wanted, and probably should have at least once, but I simply nexted her and that was that. FF 8 years and I am married to my current wife and we meet in a business setting with 3 on her side and 4 on mine for 3 hours in a room. She would not make eye contact with me once and was obviously ashamed that I could resist her or something like that.

  53. @Culum

    Good FR. By my standards, FANTASTIC date. I have to step up my game a lot before I can really dissect/critique that sort of thing. Sounds like the bang was basically in the bag, barring logistics.

    Your descriptions brought to mind two memories/corroborations.

    First, I remember kinda stroking a girl I was seeing a bit, then I pulled her in for a hug just as she was about to pull away. The result was that I jerked her toward me with sudden force. She immediately went red and her voice got husky as she cuddled in and said ‘Woah.’

    To her it felt like a spontaneous thing, a ‘taking’ of her. I’ve noticed when in turned on and a girl pushes herself against me my hips just kinda spasm forward if I don’t stop them. Girls really desire that kind of unfakable spontaneous lust for them.

    Second, I actually learned laser eyes from girls. They do it spontaneously when they’re very attracted – like when you glance at them they just get wide-eyed and lock on. I was in a marriage party and one of the bridesmaids did that from across the room every time I looked over. Was kinda creepy almost (which demonstrates a good game point – don’t over escalate. She was over escalating on me) and of course tried desperately to bang me later.

    And I find one of the most unfakable IOI’s to this day to be that – that lock-on. Whether she or you instigated it. Once you’ve seen it, it’s unmistakable.

    I don’t know if that helps you at all. It might help someone who doesn’t get it as well as you clearly do. Suppose I’m talking about the pieces of ‘natural game’ I have; currently that still outweighs my concious game.

  54. Thank you for the blog post and the comments. I am new to this forum and The Ratonal Male, and am mostly through it. I see the points, the value and how I have played or been the AFC all of my life. Through recent therapy and separation I see the points, but now that I am trying to keep my relationship together (yes, an AFC move) because I remember how it was, and still suffer from white knight syndrome, is there a method or mindset that will allow an AFC to move towards more assertive, more Alpha behavior without souring the whole thing immediately… What I am asking is, is there a way to move back to those glimpses of Alpha and beyond them, without destroying what I’ve built for a family… While improving it overall…

    Probably in many other posts that I haven’t read yet, but there is both risk and reward in moving away from AFC land and it is scary to one who has been there for over 35 years… And finding a way to not lose what you have, while gaining insight and shifting, that is what I think I am seeking…

    1. @Monty, I am about 1 year ahead of you and also in a 14 y marriage with 3 kids. I don’t know if I would describe myself as a former afc because I was also a go my own way type of guy, but I certainly was not kicking ass and enjoying all life has to offer.
      Yes, I believe you can, and most of the same concepts apply, plus some others. Since Rollo’s is also married with kid, he can and does relate often. However, for those of us who have to repair and re-establish dominance and our own mental point of origin again, there is a lot of work to do. I suggest reading Rollo, Heartiste, Return of Kings, whatever you need to so that you find pearls use can use as mantras repeatedly to change your mindset (wiring) for yourself. I am nowhere near “arrived”, and it is still hard for me to unlearn all that beta conditioning (society, plus single mom who faked victimhood and trained us to not be like our alpha-ish dad), but I can tell you that facing a hard road ahead with a real view of the world is living compared to the world where I fooled myself and subverted my real desires.
      Hope to see more of you here!

  55. Sorry for typos; working from phone.

    This routine was inspired by SJF’s story about his gay neighbors.

    2-set. Cute blondes, both 7.5 or so. Got some basic background on both; one of them has been married for a year to ‘Jeff,’ has two big dogs; the other is single.

    Me: [grabs married girl’s left hand] ‘Give me your ring.’
    Married girl (MG): No! [slaps my hand]
    Me (I’m standing close enough to hit her w my shoulder if I sway side to side): I’m married to Jeff now. We’re going to adopt an African baby, just like in the TV shows. You can keep the dogs.
    MG (after some thought to catch up): ‘no, you can’t! Besides, I don’t think Jeff would go along with that.’
    Me (smirk): ‘Clearly you didn’t watch him much during that afterparty.’ [immediately turn to other girl -turning back on MG- and start convo about something I forget. Then I start poking her in the ribs ‘to see if you’re ticklish’ then when she gets in mah grill about it I start pulling on her hair a bit.]
    Other girl: ‘you’re not being very nice. You’re giving me shit…and now you’re pulling my hair….’
    Don’t remember how I replied. A better way than I did would have been ‘too bad you love it.’ Fucking love that line lol. Just use with caution, they actually do have to be protesting against something they actually love but can’t admit to loving.

    Anyways logistics were terrible so I let them go soon after. The single girl was pretending to be all aloof and not into it, so when she was turning away I threw some trite farewell at her sarcastically – I think it was just ‘cya!’ – and she flipped her hair around, looked at me, and gave one of those giggles that almost just sounds like a squeak.

    Basically I don’t know how I’m not getting laid already lol. Maybe I just choke at logistics or something.

  56. Actually, I’m definitely choking on logistics. It’s obvious in hindsight.

    I’ve been watching Julien’s PIMP, and one of the videos is called ‘the rhythm of the night’ or something like that and the basic point is that you can get girls as attracted as you like and you still won’t bang them if you don’t isolate/escalate at a point in the night where they’re looking to get fucked. Unless you’re really good/lucky.

    I’ve been trying to pull girls when they don’t want to be pulled, or when they would be judged for it. Ain’t gonna work.

    I have some girls in the ‘cute if she lost 20lbs or ten years’ category chase me aggressively when out and I always shut that shit down. Maybe I should just bang some for the experience frankly; these aren’t the actually ugly girls at least. I just have a lot of pride about my pickiness or something. I need to shift my perspective to be more like Blaximus – just fuck any girl that stays still long enough while you’re young and learning. Hah.

  57. Iron Rule of Tomassi #5
    NEVER allow a woman to be in control of the birth.



    He did it! Louis Tomlinson made to to Los Angeles in time for the birth of his first child, a son born on the evening of Jan. 21. He’s been spotted out for the first time since his baby’s arrival and he looks positively beaming as a new papa!

    Congrats are in store for Louis Tomlinson, 24, and Briana Jungwirth, as she delivered a healthy baby boy. While the two aren’t a couple and barely even dated, they still plan on being doting parents to their little one. The One Direction singer was hanging out in Los Angeles the day after the baby’s birth and photographers caught up with him to get the news on his new son’s name. Read on for what he told them!

    It’s clear Louis is planning on spending some quality time with his newborn as he went sunglasses shopping, proving he’s going to be staying in the sunny city for a while to come. When asked by a TMZ shutterbug about the baby’s name, he played it coy and breezed past awaiting paparazzi as they asked him bout the topic, as well as if One Direction plans to stay together. And while he made a very low-key entrance to the shop with just a pal in tow – no bodyguards – his exit was super glamorous as he hopped into a giant black stretch SUV to make his escape.

    He looked super fine with a new longer hairstyle that was swept off to the side, which we hate to say reminds us of Justin Bieber‘s early hair days, only Louis pulled it off way better! He paired a plain white tee with a faded jean jacket with his favorite pair of black skinny jeans. We just can’t believe he’s a dad now, he still looks so young himself

    ?Who would have thought? That he needed new sunglasses.

  58. This BPD narrative here fits in better for the western setup. Where I live a girl just cant trash a guy’s car like that. She will end up with a hot iron rod up her ass. Are you guys telling me I have to stop screwing feisty girls? When a girl gets feisty she is asking for a hard fucking. And she doesn’t want a relationship with you either. Why I know this is because she will cut out only to reach out to you later when the pussy itch strikes again.

  59. @ Forge, SJF

    Thanks. Lots of information there to process.

    The suicidal thing Rollo wrote about in the BPD post is taking a toll on me. I’ve dealt with that almost my whole life, so hearing her say she’s suicidal is too much. I don’t have the resources to deal with this.

    And she’s making it out like I’m responsible for it. Like I was supposed to be her savior and now that I’m pulling away she has nothing to live for. Then saying she loves me and doesn’t want anything but to be with me and if that doesn’t work out she has nothing left.

    My own history with having been hospitalized multiple times on account of my being suicidal just compounds the whole thing. And then she tells me she doesn’t get why I can’t be more clear with her, and that she’s low maintenance and isn’t even asking for much.

    I mean, that’s kind of funny. I don’t feel like laughing tonight, but that’s about as close as I got. I actually understand what she means by ‘low maintenance,’ but like…..I’m just picturing a girl strangling and shaking a scarecrow, that used to be a living, breathing human, screaming “WHY WON’T YOU LOVE ME BACK”

    I don’t know why I thought of a scarecrow. Feels like I am one and the straw that makes up my body is being ripped out and scattered everywhere. Like I literally just gave you everything I am made of and am being told I’m giving you nothing — holy Blue Pill headfuck.

    If I still had two brain cells to rub together at this moment in time I would wonder what is even going on.

    Then she asks me if I want to be with her or if this is just temporary. Transition/Epiphany phase. Ah. Yes.

    But I don’t know how to respond. Too tired. Probably for the best.

    It’s way past midnight, I’m tired as fuck, and this is like the billionth time I’ve been asked this question in the wee hours of the morning. All that accomplishes is me wasting my energy on nothing and nothing changes.

    Re-inventing myself is the key. I can already feel myself changing. Probably forced by my body breaking down from all the stress and sleep deprivation. Sustaining my responsiveness/excessive involvement in this emotional drama is just becoming progressively more and more impossible.

    I physically can’t do it. I know that my withdrawal from her is a direct, healthy, symptom of the dynamics of what’s been going on.

    Despite her telling me the opposite. I’ve been needing space, and taking it, because this is eating me alive. It sucks because when she’s nice, she’s everything I ever wanted in a girl, but I’m not an outlet with endless energy that everyone can just plug into.

    Anyway, thanks for the support guys. I guess this is something like a field report. I don’t know what the hell field I’m on or where the rest of the team is though, lol. Somebody needs to call a ref.

  60. @Softek:

    My Dr. Borderline is probably a rather mild case, but then I never let her do any shit. So far on any occasion where I was somewhat weak (stress from work etc) or when I did give her any more comfort (like giving her a date for a follow up meeting) she tried some power-struggle. I picked up all of them and won and each time she fell more in love with me and showed less issues afterwards. At several points I was ready to let her go. It’s true, you probably have to leave such a women regularly. And you need a rock solid frame.

    If you don’t feel good and strong, it means you lost frame. Stop thinking about her or worrying about her. Focus on something else, different women maybe, and give a fuck about her until you feel good again. There is no solution from within her frame, the solution is to get out of that.

    Generally never take anything she says about her feelings or issues seriously. It’s her way of winning frame. Of course you should care for her and her feelings, you want her in the state you like. But never do it upon demand from her, verbally or by actions, do it only from your view. Force her to be like you like her or abandon her. That’s what she needs.

    And expect her to try literally everything to break your frame. Especially where she senses your weaknesses. You can’t let her win, ever.

    Since I’m more interested in fun and learning than in building a family, I like “toxic women”. It’s like Sigurd bathing in the blood of the dragon. A man can grow stronger from the challenge. And while Rollo’s advice regarding BPD women is right and good, Rollo became the man he is today by making these experiences.

  61. Rollo, I hear what you are saying but what if accepting Red Pill ideals are not rewarded by women? Learning Red Pill ideals might be in my best interest but if it goes unrewarded by women then there is crisis of motive, in accepting the ideals which is what I am struggling with at the moment. For me the whole reason I got into Game and now Red Pill – although I am still trying to fit Red Pill ideals into the Blue pill ideals – was to get laid more. But the opposite seems to be happening – I am isolating myself more.

    I think what has happened is that men have been conditioned into displacing themselves as their mental point of origin and as such without the reward from women it become very difficult to create “A New Hope”. In the end it all boils down to a man’s relationship with his desire and I find that desire for getting laid more overrides everything as you say it we are all doing our bidding for biology.

  62. Softek,

    I apologize in advance that I don’t know anything (have no expertise) about depression or suicide stuff. Nor do I or any other commenters have good or bad advice. It is just advice with neutral value. You place the value how you see fit.

    You saying you need to re-invent yourself is a buffer to kick your can down the road. The fact is you already did re-invent yourself with red pill awareness and game. You know that. You know you are better now than you were a year ago. You need more experienced tools on how to operate and have power and agency. Unfortunately these tools won’t fall into your lap like manna from the skies. They come from hard knocks, intuition and experience–and the process of acquiring Mastery.

    You know all about the red pill being bitter and not having blue pill agency with red pill awareness.

    Unfortunately you have met your Peter Principle. Accept that you are at your level of competence or incompetence. You are in grief and the stages before acceptance are of course denial, anger, bargaining and depression. (and you need help in those stages. Get it.)

    It is her that is your problem right now. And you are being manipulated by her. There is a concept of people in your close circle (and not too close circle of friends) and family regarding the draining of energy. Your relationship is now at a point that she is sucking the energy out of you. The masculine is ideally to be strong and have infinite energy. There is only so much that can be sucked out until you are deemed a weak man. And then the feminine will not see that as attractive. It is the process of Betatization (for those following along at home, there is a lecturer named Toru Sato that gives a rubric on how to mentally handle “stealing of energy” in your everyday life. How to employ Law #10) He wrote a book on it called The Ever-Transcending Spirit. It is very good, but simple in concept–description, not prescription).

    Right now it is probably best to not be your own tutor at how to proceed. Get some help even if it is in this space.

    She is in the midphase of the Female Stages of Manipulation described well in Joseph South’s “Practical Female Psychology” book. Her asking for more communication is a female tactic of manipulation. Do you really think that things will improve by more communication with her? Men falling into that trap will only be digging a deeper hole. And any female that tells you that “that is wrong” and that communication will help in a situation like yours is merely trying to conceal one of the FI’s greatest manipulative ploy.

    From the South book:

    Seeking Communication “Open up to me, please.”

    Once a woman has tested the male, and is relatively sure that he is strong enough to serve her purposes, her concern begins to revolve around making the man serve her exclusively. Many men who are relatively strong and pass the tests of the first stage, fail to understand the meaning of this second stage. This stage is extremely difficult for the average man to detect. It is instinctually and often unconsciously masked by the woman as a purely innocent attempt to “communicate” with the male.

    It is a feature of the feminine psyche to appreciate communication above all else, but from an evolutionary point of view what the female of our species is really doing at this stage is using language to befuddle her partner, which will hopefully cause him to serve her and her purposes.

    This stage is extremely important to the success or failure of couple relationships. Couple therapy fails so frequently because it tends to disregard the real, evolutionary meaning of this stage. A very common pitfall for couples is when the woman starts to feel that the man is displaying an inability or unwillingness to “communicate properly” with the woman. Modem couples therapy almost invariably places the blame for this supposed lack of communication squarely on the man’s shoulders.

    In the first stage (ed. the prior, first stage shit testing), the woman has screened out the weaker males; the man was specifically chosen by the woman for a relationship. In this second stage, the woman acts as if she is seeking deeper communication with the man. A strong man will start to sense that an attempt is being made to weaken him, and he will then usually react with certain predictable behavior patterns. He may get angry or he may withdraw. Arguments that seem to the man to be based on nothing logical at all will often occur at this stage.

    Read or reread “How Women Argue” at Illimitable Men (it will come up first if you Google the last six words). And don’t let her drag you into you “showing emotions” and then club you over the head with that.

    Once again, this is non-professional advice. Some of it may be of value to others reading along.

  63. @kite, you have a gross misconception of the “reward” of the red pill. The reward is living to your highest potential, on your terms. The reward is prioritizing and provisioning for yourself, understanding your self worth, and allowing only the people into your life who add value.

    Are women are reward? Nope, more akin to a perk.

  64. @Chump_No_More

    It’s funny, @kite refers to a bunch of titles of Rollo’s posts, almost as if the comment was assembled by cut n’ paste.. In “A New Hope”, Rollo repeats:

    Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it

    If you can’t accept that you are not Red Pill

    As well, there is no version of Game that results in “isolating myself more”

  65. @Monty
    Also in a 35 year mirage found this site 5months ago still working through it Don’t know if it will help but here goes.First thing after reading year one all the new posts and all related items underlined just click and read.At 55 years old wife is 58 we have seen our world change drasticaly and it seems to be escalating. I had to stop telling her my worry’s concerns troubles and pain and just be the rock.Also have changed body language, better posture, more self confidence,I will decide if we go to war and what the strategy is and she can decide how to best feed the troops.At 55 I need to hoard testosterone like it is gold, be the prize still make the sexual advances but let her initiate the sex.

    We have lived of the grid now for 21 years the social life is limited she gets hers with the kids all moved out but still in contact.And she tends bar for a casino,very unrealistic environment but the news is on at her work the cocktails are running it gives her a life.I have a small buisness that keeps me going.

    The main thing is move slow don’t try to sell the red pill just live it.As your value goes up and you become the prize things will change.In my case for the better.Rollos iron rules can help especialy in frame as my frame improves the feminine follows suite.
    I have socialized with many women and found most of them to be messed in the head more so than my wife,so while things aren’t perfect by any means we have a mutual interest and neither are looking to trade in. Especialy a trade down.It is okay to man up and be the rock no matter the shit the matrix is selling the gender biology hasn’t changed nor is it likely to,just do it you are the man she is the woman, what have you to lose?What good is all my property if I loose my sanity? The rest of it was already a mess or I wouldn’t be here,it is a natural move to embrace positive masculinity and the respect of my family grows as I do.

    So this man went to the doctor complaining of headaches.the doctor says if I castrate you it will go away.
    The man says no but the headaches get worse so he goes back and gets the operation. Now his headache is gone but he feels incomplete.The doctor says go get a new suit it will make you feel better.
    At the Tailors the tailor says what size briefs do you wear the man says a 32 the tailor replied after 30 tears in this business I can tell that you need a larger size something that tight will give you a headache.

  66. @Monty: “And finding a way to not lose what you have, while gaining . . . ”

    You may find that in order to afford the Porsche you have to trade in the Toyota.

    Or, alternatively, that when you buy the Porsche, the Toyota, which you were perfectly delighted with when you first bought it, is now assigned the role of “beater.”

  67. “Last year when I had barely given birth to our second son, Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways – attacking everything about me, calling my life shit, calling me all sorts of names, all while I was trying to merely comment (agreeing no less) and take care of a few weeks old baby in our family. I had all kinds of postpartum hormones going on at that time as well, very little sleep, etc. so apparently just having a different opinion is pettiness, but resorting to personal insults, cussing, and attacks was completely fine with him.”

    Why the hell does it matter if Rollo just stood by! Is Rollo her husband? Rollo to her is a stranger online and you can’t expect much. The way women come in and expect and even demand men to cater to them, to act as a de facto husband, to create a cozy safe space for them in amazing.
    If a woman’s hormones are so out of whack what the hell is she doing online, why is she coming here, why not go to a ladies blog and figure out how to get a handle on the situation.Why are you on a male oriented blog when you have a newborn???? How on earth did she not get her hormones in check after few weeks of birth anyway? I think she did so for weight.

  68. @Monty

    “…..is there a method or mindset that will allow an AFC to move towards more assertive, more Alpha behavior without souring the whole thing immediately… What I am asking is, is there a way to move back to those glimpses of Alpha and beyond them, without destroying what I’ve built for a family… While improving it overall…”

    Yes there is a way. It is by no means easy nor quick. So don’t rush it if you don’t know what you are doing.

    There is a maxim, perhaps coined on reddit married red pill, that it takes a month for every year you’ve been married to turn the battleship around.

    It is much harder to turn around after abdicating alpha dominance a long time ago than it is to never have let it happen in the first place. Much harder.

    I perhaps had more resources at my disposal in order to accomplish that feat. And the process is never complete. I guarantee you will find it nearly impossible. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try. Or get frustrated.

    Be Positive.
    What you find in your mind is what you put there
    Put good things in there.

    Just know what you are getting into. I’m a little unique here commenting because I’m more invested in what you are asking to do. (maintain LTR). (Why else would I ramble on TL;DR here?)

    You can work on it. There is no guarantee of success. Your wife took up a void you abdicated and she will not want to give up her dominance and control. She has too much to lose, so keep that in mind.

    The goal for you is to re-establish desire for her to have sex with you. (The goal of all game, which is fungible, is easy pussy.) She loves you but she is not in love with you. So the goal is to turn that around.

    You need to read a lot and understand a lot before you change your tactics or try to re-establish bringing your wife into your Frame. Right now it is all you in her Frame and once again, she does not want to give into your Frame. If you don’t understand Game principles you will be playing with dynamite. Even if you do understand how things work (red pill awareness) and know how to proceed properly with Game, you will be walking through a minefield.

    Some resources to consider in married man game are Ian Ironwood’s blog The Red Pill Room, and his books from Amazon regarding Manosphere, Book of Alpha and Ivory Tower.

    Another resource is Athol Kay’s Mindful Attraction Plan. In it he lays a framework on how to turn things around in a relationship such as yours. (All of Athol Kay’s other resources fall short of Red Pill.) This book I recommend is stripped down and avoids the false trap of Purple Pill. Purple pill is a way to appease the feminine and leans a little too much into the feminine and makes you prone to veer into your old Blue Pill ways.

    Another good source is the archives of Illimitable men including The Red Pill Constitution (at the top, hover mouse over Archives, then New to Red Pill, then click on the red pill constitution) and The Principles of Game . Also his essay Fifty Shades of Red in the archives.

    Before you employ game it is best to read Rollo’s essays. And then read some more of them. Go first to the “best of” at the top of this page. Read each link in the essays as you are reading them (Rollo doesn’t digress to keep the flow going, but the links are important to digest.) For very good reasons Rollo doesn’t give prescriptive advice. (Heheh, hence his advice to you: Welcome Here) Everyone’s situation is different. And you can’t be one foot in and one foot out of red pill. And it may or may not be for you. (Ref. the character Cypher in the Matrix movie).

    So it is tough. You need to proceed with grace and carefulness. If you don’t you will up your alpha asshole and fuck things up in the next six months. You want to win the war, not just a few battles. The best time to work on this is 35 years ago. The next best time is now.

  69. “I like the metaphor and am assuming the Porsche vs. Toyota is a reference to lifestyle not partners.”

    I assume it means get a new partner. And I don’t disagree with that advice on women or cars. Me personally, I started with a Porsche, and don’t want to downgrade to a Toyota or a fat ugly Yugo.

  70. @SJF

    “Frame isn’t Power”

    This keeps standing out to me in what you say. Would you be willing to tell me what you mean by this? Obviously how you feel and how you see yourself as well as how you communicate your impression of yourself isn’t equivalent to your capacity to inspire confidence in others, though they are conflated, usually by gurus giving bad advice.

    What do you specifically mean with that statement? Or should I be able to find it in year one and two?

  71. @SJF:

    In his case I think that likely, as he is trying to recover something that was already discarded, but if I had to nail down what I was referring to to a single concept, rather than the generic, it would be elements of his mental paradigm.

    At which point his assessment of the value of his current “partnership” will change and he will be able to move on without angst. Right now he is in distress because he is trying to blue pill the red pill.

    @Monty: Google “Sunk-Cost Fallacy”.

  72. I had a Yugo kept it running w/ duck tape and baling wire strictly a to b car you can’t trade those things just crush them.Started out with the sexy 40s antique truck and still totaly into them.
    I don’t equate Alpha with asshole but more a calm sense of presence and right direction that people are willing to follow voluntarily.I consider SJF and many others on this site as Alpha by these standards.
    Don’t mismisunderstand me.

  73. @monty

    It’s good that you’re here. Learning new game skills and redpill mindsets can make you a bit uncalibrated at first, and when you try to get frame back there’s usually a lot of pushback. So I would generally recommend not starting by trying to game the wife or get frame back directly. That part is tricky, best practiced by advanced practitioners rather than a novice.

    So start by working on your frame/value with new masculine pursuits. Lift, do martial arts, get into black smithing, start a side business, homestead, BASE jump, start a folk band, whatever you would lbe passionate about. Basically, expand your personality apart from her and your relationship. That starts to give you a stronger MPO.

    At the same time, just practice treating women as women. Tease, flirt lightly, engage them emotionally. You don’t need to take it anywhere, you just want to be the kind of guy that tends to treat girls like they’re your bratty little sister you tease.

    Once you learn to calibrate this you’ve learned a lot how to interact man-to-woman rather than just platonically. They tend to love it, it’s just fun for both of you. Give yourself a few months of fucking up a few times if you’re not used to this, like I said before this is why you practice on like cashiers and stuff before you try it on more important relationships. I learned mostly on co-workers before I started cold approach and also with actual sisters.

    Society tends to not give us much guidance or permission to just be a fun, solid, masculine guy. Find that first. Once you do, you’ll be surprised how well people can react to it. Alpha tends to follow.

  74. Hell, I don’t know I just regurgitate stuff I read in the manosphere.


    The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it. The forces that influence that lack or boost of will is irrelevant – just know that the conditions of an operative framework will shift because of them.

    But more seriously, I’ll give you an example.

    After I developed my married man game, I now have my own mental point of origin and I go about keeping my frame. Let’s just say I know what I’m doing up to my limitations. My wife keeps her frame. Often when we go out to dinner, or a bar, or to the country club (which is her established social milieu. she’s got a shit-load of social proof and like-ability there. I have little because I don’t care to develop it. I go to all the social parties and golf about 5 times a year). So she keeps frame well. And I don’t begrudge that.
    She rambles on about so and so, shares stories. At a bar, she’ll point out that a woman looks just like a friend of hers like she is in her frame. One in which I don’t care to enter into (the discussion about how the woman looks like her friend).

    If I was out with my buddies, with her along, or I’m cutting the grass and doing yardwork, or other household things like clearing the water hammer arresters in the plumbing system. Or reading books and typing here. Or out at my farm running a tractor, or sitting around a fire pit, or using the chainsaw. In these situations, it is my social (or non-social frame).

    Now it is my own damn fault for abdicating frame in social situations a long time ago. And I can keep frame at and these days am quite good at socializing with the country club set–there are some really genuinely good people there–but just because I am at my best does not guarantee I can pull her into my frame. She has good frame cultivated over the last 25 years. She tries to pull me into that frame.

    Mind you it is not an entirely uncomfortable relationship I am running with my wife. It is quite good. It could be better for me and I’m working on it. I’m generally calm about it, but not always.

    And this is all subtle, covert and in the sub-communication.But it is there for the observing.

    You see how that works? Frame is not power. Keeping Frame and pulling her into your frame is a goal. That goal may or may not be accomplished.

    If you pull her in to your frame, yes you have power. If she pulls you into her frame she has power. If you are stale-mated you do not have power.

    Emily, Insanitybytes and recently Dragonfly enter into comments here. The say something and act as if we will come into their Frame. That we will occasionally agree with them. But they do it–try to keep Frame–like a bull in a china shop. And non of the china breaks. The masculine commenters analyze what they say, keep Frame and don’t get pulled into their Frame, the feminine Frame.

    Obviously how you feel and how you see yourself as well as how you communicate your impression of yourself isn’t equivalent to your capacity to inspire confidence in others pull them into your frame and have power,…

  75. @Monty

    “So start by working on your frame/value with new masculine pursuits. Lift, do martial arts, get into black smithing, start a side business, homestead, BASE jump, start a folk band, whatever you would lbe passionate about. Basically, expand your personality apart from her and your relationship. That starts to give you a stronger MPO.”

    That is excellent, fantastic advice by Forge the Sky and it is a cornerstone of the “Mindful Attraction Plan”. You have to go your own way in the relationship with your wife.

    Law #16 Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor

    Too much circulation makes the price go down: The more you are seen and heard from, the more common you appear. If you are already established in a group, temporary withdrawal from it will make you more talked about, even more admired. You must learn when to leave. Create
    value through scarcity.

  76. @Forge the Sky and @GW – thanks.

    @GW – Yeah, I have the curse of verbosity but at least I am in good company here!

    It is an amazing rush – if you’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy like me. Even more than the sex, my favourite moment on a date is when you feel the electric sexual chemistry as the “love bubble” forms – the moment when your eyes lock and you go in for the kiss for the first time..

    @Forge – it’s just practice and I am slowly getting better but I have a long way to go. It’s two-fold – one is actually noticing small things like that (I remember a couple of years ago in a club when I was out with a good looking Natural and I actually noticed a woman checking him out – it felt great to notice) and the second thing which is in some ways more important is to actually TRUST that flash. To believe that it means what it means. And for that you need some reference experiences of acting on it successfully.

    Second thing is – the lay wasn’t quite in the bag. There was no doubt she was attracted to me and the date was (within the goals I’d set for it), successful. But she wasn’t turned on enough to push for the lay. That was clear. She was *just* starting to get turned on by the end. That was partly deliberate because I knew logistics weren’t right (although I’ve got BJs in the toilet at that bar several times on first dates) but if I’d wanted to push for the lay I’d have had to venue change her and get her horny before the pull.

    And now I don’t know if she’ll come over straight to my place next week. I’ll try, but there’s always the risk of ASD (although I was carefully not to get her too turned on for exactly this reason) and more importantly, given her age and mine, some urge to lock me into Provider mode and slow things down.

    But neither of those things takes away from the validity of what happened *on the date*.

    And I agree with you about the laser eyes thing – YaReally has been talking about it for a while but this date was the first time I actually felt it working – I’ve tried it a few times before without much success. I don’t want to post the clip here and send the post into mod, but there’s a good Youtube clip from the movie “Shame” I think – shows a man/woman lasering each other on the Subway. It’s acted, but very realistic in terms of what actually happens, right down to the woman licking her lips etc..

  77. @Blax & SJF – I can definitely be full of shit sometimes, lol, whether that was aimed at me or not. I hope people noticed that I was trying to correct Niko and he reverted to tedious parsing and semantics, and then I checked out. I don’t dislike him or think he’s in any way not sincere or even uncivil here. To my thinking, his ideas are pedestrian and i react because he poses himself as some kind of seer in his vids and comments. I don’t get a thing out of it, have mentioned it several times and will continue to do so if he posts another of his treacly vids or comments. But I bet he’s a good man IRL, no doubt. Perhaps he’s not often challenged on his intellect, boo fucking hoo. Anonymous seconded me on his misuse of the concept of “in-group preferences” fyi…

    @Dragon – Reading your commentary here, well, all I can say is that you have no idea how you’ve lowered your standing by saying what you did. Rollo is correct, you are bolstering your man and sitting in his frame, and I respect that. But to say what you’ve said also reveals that you simply are not intellectually engaged in the ideas we discuss here – for whatever reason. Another commenter pointed out that you are virtue signalling and I think that’s probably right. But we are discussing a very serious, complex situation that is physically dangerous to Camaro – get it, I bet many of us here would not be suprised to find out that Camaro was killed by his wife this weekend, yeah? Also note I backed off as many others here have direct experience with BPD and have investigated all this much more deeply – you seem incapable of taking those cues, which tells me that you are ego invested in your position, not really seeking to contribute.

    Also, for the benefit of those men who don’t remember or were not around when we had our dustup, let me reprise the context which you neatly left out to create a victim meme for yourself. Even more surprising is that you now also add that you were suffering from some kind of postpartum issues – none of which you mentioned at the time. As an aside, I think you would have been surprised to find that I would have had great sympathy for that and may have relented as I have lots of compassion for mental illness. That said…

    Our conflict arose regarding commentary I offered regarding women who wore yoga pants. I saw them as innately highly sexualizing of women’s bodies and suggestive and the kind of behavior a modest women would never engage in. I asked you if you wore Yoga pants out of the house and you maintained that while you did, it was different for you. That somehow wearing skintight yoga pants that highlight the curves of your thighs, ass and vaginal area were not sexually suggestive because YOU were the one wearing them. That you’d even asked your husband to approve of them, again borrowing his authority.

    You began insulting me for pressing you on this bullshit and I called you a cunt and some other things. You act like “cussing” is some kind of violation of you, when you walk into a male space where we are overtly not dedicated to preserving female privileges or FI imposed restraints on male behavior that seek to shame us from expressing ourselves.

    You also neglect to mention another important context. I was also on a big campaign to try and convince women who comment here not to, especially those who claim to be “Red Pill” as I just wanted one male space in my life. One place where I didn’t have to deal with what women think and say. But no, you couldn’t comply. I got intentionally harsh to try and shut you up and encourage you to go away.

    But you chose to leave all that out in your damseling comment. You also revealed that you expected Rollo to White Knight for you, again, telegraphing that you aren’t any kind of Red Pill woman at all. You are just seeking to use the Red Pill to advance your situation in life. I also recall telling you and any other woman here that if they were actually moved by the stories of incel guys and the 30 yr old virgins and the desolate men who report in here at times, and really got how intersexual dynamics works, and how deprived some men are sexually, that an actual Red Pill woman would fess up some pussy for the lonely guys in their world. You immediately responded that you didn’t “owe” any man sex – again, not even listening.

    And then we come full circle back to Camaro. And Softek. What you utterly miss is how this BPD thing plays deeply into their psyche after a lifetime of suppressing and shaming their own energy and masculinity. I can see that clearly because I’ve never taken that kind of shit from a woman for more than 5 seconds – but my awareness of this comes from years of therapy which focued on rebuilding boundaries and not allowing myself to be abused by anyone (I do overdo it sometimes, lol). Yet you miss all that and in your fervor to virtue signal to us what a good submissive, Christian wife you are, you parrot your husband’s weak shit here. Rollo sees it through the lens of your brother and his perception of a very real threat to his wellbeing and seeks to correct you, yet you still resist and persist in your superficial preening.

    What have you actually learned? Maybe that submitting to your hubby is a good thing. Perhaps you’ve affirmed that more traditional sex roles work better. But you are no “Red Pill Chick” – in fact, you have made it crystal clear that you don’t really get most of what’s being explicated here. Go back to being the child that you most surely are, men are speaking, sweetie.

    And oh yeah, are you still prancing around in yoga pants, exciting male sexual interest where ever you go?

  78. “They may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom.”

    The ability to take life is power. The willingness to lose life rather than capitulate is frame.

  79. @Cheupez

    “This BPD narrative here fits in better for the western setup. Where I live a girl just cant trash a guy’s car like that. She will end up with a hot iron rod up her ass. Are you guys telling me I have to stop screwing feisty girls? When a girl gets feisty she is asking for a hard fucking. And she doesn’t want a relationship with you either. Why I know this is because she will cut out only to reach out to you later when the pussy itch strikes again.”

    Good perspective on this. I think that, in other cultural contexts, what we’re calling ‘BPD’ would be less pathologized and better managed.

    I think what the uber girl is doing is actually well within the spectrum of normal female functioning – they’re mostly forced to suppress it in our society however (this girl could well lose her medical residency over this incident, as an example) so it’s only the women with full-on personality disorders who regularly display it. And it’s well within the spectrum of normal male behavior to be able to deal with this sort of behavior, via violence/dominance. Which is ultimately what she subconsciously ‘wants’ to happen. But men are very strongly incentivized to suppress that capacity as well, with the prospect of hard jail time and its sequelae.

    In modern America, not abiding by ‘yes means yes’ practices is quite perilous. Unless you know the girl in question fairly well, then you might have a bit of leeway, a bit of an ‘understanding’ with her if you will. You might also have a bit of leeway in sub-middle class environments where a bit more of the ‘law of the jungle’ prevails. But in all cases women hold a sword of Damocles over the heads of men – they can level a false rape charges when there wasn’t even any sexual contact. They might not have a very high success rate, but there are rarely repercussions for trying.

    It’s increasingly bearing on me how very unnatural all of this is. ‘Tis the price of civilization I suppose. Some compromise is necessary. Maybe not this much.

  80. @ lh

    @ SJF

    Sage advice from both of you. Pretty unbelievable. Now that I’m getting actual experience, the dots Rollo’s connected and the advice guys like you offer here is nothing short of amazing.

    You both hit the nail on the head.

    Definitely getting a lot of experience and feel like I’m learning more quickly.

  81. Incidentally, the Uber minicab girl (she’s actually 30 and is an actual doctor in Miami- looks remarkably young) was arrested by the police after walking away and has been placed on “administrative leave” by her hospital and banned by Uber.

    And she may yet lose her medical licence. So there’s some justice after all, although of course all that only happened because she was caught bang to rights on video…

  82. Good luck Softek.


    Now here is the point at which a guy can tell a man to think with his logical brain rather than with his dick.

    See how that works, girls?

    Same words. Different context.

    In one context, serious and caring. In the other context, trite.

  83. @Softek

    “And she’s making it out like I’m responsible for it. Like I was supposed to be her savior and now that I’m pulling away she has nothing to live for. Then saying she loves me and doesn’t want anything but to be with me and if that doesn’t work out she has nothing left.

    Co-dependancy. She shouldn’t be relying on you to make her feel complete. In a relationship both people should contribute to the other’s life while still maintaining a solid identity aside from the other.

    In this case, it could also just be words to manipulate you in a certain direction. See SJF above.

    “Despite her telling me the opposite. I’ve been needing space, and taking it, because this is eating me alive. It sucks because when she’s nice, she’s everything I ever wanted in a girl, but I’m not an outlet with endless energy that everyone can just plug into.”

    Dude, I’ll level with you. I don’t think that, in your current state, you can really make a good judgement about what’s all going on. You’re very distressed right now and it could be because of this girl or it could just be that your brain is just in freakout mode and so you’re just interpreting everything negatively. I know that when depression hits me, things I usually think are great I start going over and over in my head until I’m convinced that it’s the worst thing ever and nothing can fix it. I’ve just kinda learned to recognize the pattern and tell myself, ‘alright, I’m just not in a state where I have good perspective right now. I’ll just wait till tomorrow when I’m better and then I’ll see things more clearly.’ I’ll even avoid talking to girls bc I’m much more likely to screw shit up since my mindset is off.

    Do two things if you can: sleep lots (lack of sleep is hugely related to depression), and get a day – or a few if you can manage – where you’re just by yourself hiking or fishing or something of that nature. You need to back up and catch your breath. Maybe things won’t seem so impossible then. Maybe you’ll have a better idea about how you can handle, or can’t handle, this girl in your life. And what sorts of boundaries you need. For example, do you really care if she gets to call you her boyfriend so things aren’t just awkward for her around people? So long as she doesn’t assume exclusivity?

    I’m not exactly convinced that this girl for sure has BPD or something similar, and your only option is to get out. Girls test you for weakness, and if they find one – for example, if she were to discover that you have massive guilt about looking at porn or other girls – they tend to poke it over and over and it becomes a huge issue for them not because they really care but because YOU care.

    The girl you’re with is often a reflection of yourself. I mean, yes, there are girls who are easier or harder in certain ways, and legit crazy girls are best left to expert management, but how is it do you think that the first girl you’re with just so happen to have hangups about this one thing you feel guilty about? That’s no coincidence.

    Here’s something else that can help – when you just feel down and shitty and mopey, just avoid her and deal with it by yourself. She can’t really help you anyways and will at some level resent having to deal with your weaknesses. And you won’t be able to fake confidence and ZFG when you’re really down. She’ll pull it out of you and amplify it.

    You can actually pull this off to your advantage if you’re sufficiently vague about what you’re doing. “I just need time to think about some things today. Nothing to do with you.” Soft dread.

    “Somebody needs to call a ref.”

    That’s you, buddy. Congrats.

  84. Clarification re: “I’m not exactly convinced that this girl for sure has BPD or something similar, and your only option is to get out.”

    Dangling modifier. I’m not convinced about either one of those things, not just the first one.

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