A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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The Question
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@ Rollo Tomassi “It does help to illustrate the environment’s role in molding a person by limiting or encouraging his behavioral development and ultimately his personality.” It sort of reminds me of that scene from the film “Antz” where they examine every ant larvae after it’s born and decide if it’s a worker or soldier based on their physical size. I think a filtering process like this occurs in society starting early on and later develops into an unspoken, subconscious code of conduct. The FI narrative is thrust onto young boys, or their mothers attempt to impose their will on… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Dutchman “Re: the Uber chick… I just wonder, with everything that is known about game, what was the BEST thing the dude could have done to get her to stop acting that way so he didn’t go to jail or some shit when the cops showed up and she made up some crazy story?” Jeremy makes a good point that every option is bad game long term here. But if you just want the bang, hey, you just need to throw her emotions in the right direction. Having a Bad Day pointed out how there was actually quite a bit… Read more »

having a bad day
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@digireaper “The Friday, I went to a new disco, so I was very nervous going to a new place. ” props on going OUT!…that’s the first step…congratulations!…that shits hard…and going out alone takes real balls…not kidding on that…it gets easier the more you do it… “That night was a failure. ” NOPE..HUGE success…you might not have even talked to a girl, but just taking action = HUGE success…GREAT JOB!!! “I ended up dancing awkwardly on the dance floor alone like a fool. ” i just want to point out one VERY important thing… you…are…still…ALIVE…lol… “The Saturday my brother-in-law invited me… Read more »

SJF
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If you are trying to get your N count up and brag about it, it is legit to add +3 for every seriously BPD chick that was clinically diagnosed right?

scray
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@rollo

ya a lot of that is outside my paradigm but cool stuff

@SJF

you’d be surprised about how non-BPD chicks become when you have the power to ditch them the second they cross the line.

SJF
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I personally would not be surprised. Very little surprises me. I had an education that included clinical psychology 30 years ago. I’m a good observer and analyzer and you’d be surprised at how those analytical abilities don’t fade over time. And I also am keenly aware that Frame is not power. I was shocked this last year when I realized that I have employed Law #10 with sublime expertise. I looked around at those that are close to me and affect me. I pretty have near zero unhappy and unlucky people surrounding me. I simply don’t let it happen. (And… Read more »

Dragonfly
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@Rollo, LOL I don’t think you understand his mindset. He actually surprises me with the things he says in how he would react to some of the things men go through in the manosphere. One time I related a story that BV had posted on my own blog about being with a woman on a first date that behaved awkwardly enough to warrant a reaction. His reaction was SO far off what I even expected (and nothing at all what BV did) – and no it wasn’t a fake bravado, it’s just how he would honestly react. You don’t have… Read more »

kfg
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@Scray: I don’t have to believe it, I know it. Which is how I know that that is part of what makes them so dangerous and why the men who deal with them for any length of time get their heads fucked up so badly.

Note that Camaro says his has been super duper for about 2 months now.

That scares me. That seems to be about the term of the usual “nice” cycle. If she were living with me, I’d be waiting for her to “go off” any day now.

Dragonfly
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And you know he is around BPD girls often enough. He sees them calling on their boyfriends/husbands when they’re the one that were beating him and had him locked in the bathroom. He’s arrested them instead of the men at times. So yea… he’s seen them at their worst.

SJF
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@Drangonfly “You don’t have to have so many “lays” to understand your value and behave accordingly.” You have to be a man not getting laid or getting cut off from sex to understand how little your value really is. Frame is not power. This scenario doesn’t apply to your husband or myself. But ask your husband how he would feel if he was having great sex and it was going to end for the foreseeable future. Would he think “No bid deal”? Propose that to him without telegraphing anything. Ask him and tell us his answer. Or think how your… Read more »

SJF
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“He’s arrested them instead of the men at times.”

Perhaps he has a kindred empathy for the men? And is thinking rationally within the dictates of law. Why the hell wouldn’t he arrest the woman? Your premise is showing.

SJF
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Or more precisely, your premise is telling.

Dragonfly
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SJF – My brother and my husband are at completely different ends of a spectrum in my opinion. My brother looks up to my husband like the red pill father he never had – he’s mentored him because my father failed at that. My brother is making great progress, and I’m so happy for him, but he’s nowhere near where my husband is (and I wouldn’t expect him to be at this point in his life). But he IS getting there, but if he came into contact with a BPD, I’m sure he’d have no idea what he was dealing… Read more »

Dragonfly
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LOL SJF, he does exactly what needs to be done, and it gives him great satisfaction to arrest the woman when other times officers unjustly arrest the man in those cases. bpd women play like they’re the victims when in reality they’re usually doing physical violence against their partners. But it’s the woman who calls … *lying* and when he gets there and finds the scene to be the opposite of what she says, and finds NO marks on her, or hears the man tell him that she created the marks on herself (which these women actually do) and checks… Read more »

SJF
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You change the subject. Of course the discussion upstream was about BPD. My question is in regard to the value a man holds for himself. His self-esteem. If a man is not getting sexual release is it easy for him to hold his self esteem high? Independent of all the ruinous forces in his life for him? Sure, a man that cannot keep it in his pants for a stretch is not truly disciplined. I’m not talking about discipline. I’m talking about self esteem and self value as man. Is it there as much value and esteem, pound for pound… Read more »

Dragonfly
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“particularly when you yourself have no options and believe you’ll never do any better than her.” (last line in your article, this is the crux of it)

I’ve read it before, I’ve seen women like this, and I’ve seen men with those women. I have a friend who committed suicide in (what I thought) part of his reaction to his wife’s mental disorder.

kobayashii1681
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@Rollo: “This is exactly why your husband’s programmed aphorisms are fuck-all useless to a guy in Softek’s circumstances. He has no frame of reference.”

Somehow, but not surprisingly, this is not hitting home for dragonfly….

Snoman
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The way of the Superior Man by David Deida. Offers some insight regarding the comments in this thread.

SJF
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“The way of the Superior Man by David Deida”.

Never heard of that one. What’s it about? And how does it offer insights into this thread?

Sun Wukong
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@Dragonfly You really don’t get it. You’ve never dated one of these chicks. I’ve dated two. One recently, one my first year of college that was my first lay. I didn’t intend to even have sex with her. I wasn’t thinking with my dick at all. I tried to walk away that night, but she made it clear she would kill herself if I did. Being 18 at the time I believed it would be my fault if she did and capitulated. The relationship was a fucking nightmare. The recent one managed to find a couple small holes in my… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Avid – A little close to the bone for you, eh? And in “masculine” Spartan culture, boys in training were encouraged to have homosexual relationships with their mentor/trainers, lol. Still role models for you? It was thought to create loyalty and enhance the bond between them. Red Pill is understanding that women live in a conflict wrt to their sexual urges while men don’t. You see, women are not designed to torture you, they are just following their programming. They are also programmed to not give a shit about your suffering, no evolutionary advantage in that. Men cling to their… Read more »

Softek
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@ Rollo http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/21/case-study-the-crazy/ That post seemed to bridge the gap a bit between BPD and a ‘normal’ relationship. It does seem like BPD is just an extreme version of how women normally are, although the core of it is different. That’s why BPD is a personality disorder. But I’ve never been in a relationship, so have no frame of reference for what’s normal and what’s not. @ YaReally I did tell her directly to shut the fuck up once when she was going off on me and being completely abusive. I just looked her dead in the eye and told… Read more »

hank holiday
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While we’re on the subject of BPD chicks, I’d just like to mention there is a big difference between them and regular girls that just have their bitch shield up. I had what was almost a perfect comparison study between two girls I worked with. Both were roughly the same age, average looking, tall and skinny, and thought they were more attractive than they actually were. The first one we’ll call Krissy. She was very bitchy and bossy when I first met her, but once I teased her a bit she got a lot nicer. From then on, she’d still… Read more »

Camaro
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I’ve decided to go ahead with the divorce. What I’m going to do is on Monday I’m going to go down and get the paperwork and then sign up for a free class at the family law facilitator to help me fill out the forms. It should go pretty easily considering the length of time we’ve been married and the fact that we have no kids and no real property between us. And as far as my red pill awakening I’ve decided that instead of coming off of it slowly in order to minimize the shock of transitioning from blue… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Womankind is programmed by nature with hypergamy. Hypergamy operates mostly automatically via hindbrain and its intents are covertly disguised so mankind will be non the wiser until womankind is able to capitalize upon mankinds provisions and carnal seed. Womankind is assisted by natural programming of mankind’s romantic idealistic idiocy. Enter Rollo Tomassi. The messiah of sexual gender dynamics is born unto us! Behold the revelation of ubiquitous enlightenment for all men. All can now rejoice where only few could before! The dots have been connected! Eureka! Blue pill idealism can now be realized within an alpha frame. The correct context… Read more »

scribblerg
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On being a natural. I have to concur with Rollo’s view on how we all develop our own game, for better or worse. I never thought of myself as a natural until someone on this board suggested I was one. Fyi, I never thought of myself as alpha until I brought up the Red Pill to 3 different male friends and they all told me, “Yeah, your definitely alpha.” I literally had no idea – and now I realize this is part of being a natural. I had an N of about 100 before I got here (stopped counting at… Read more »

bob bitchin
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@Camaro. Dude, if I were in your shoes I couldnt sleep. What you described-her waiting oitside the bathroom- is chilling. As in ‘Psycho’. If you were my friend I’d be very worried for you.
Call a friend. Have a witness. Do whatever it takes to execute your plan. Get The Fuck Out.
Best of luck. Hang in. Be strong. Take care of number #1. Down the road you’ll be balls deep in some.hot broad.and this will be.a bad memory.

@NBTM: what’s your problem dude?

Not Born This Morning
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Here is my advice. I know you didn’t ask for it, so don’t tell me, I don’t give a shit. 1. Don’t get fat. 2. If you are at all fat, get unfat. 3. Get some strenuous exercise at least once a week. 4. Stay active. The older you get, the more difference it makes. 5. Drink a gallon of water a day. 6. Eat lots of vegetables and plenty of protein. 7. Jack off or fuck regularly but not compulsively. 8. Get 7 hours of sleep a night. 9. Laugh at yourself at least as much as you laugh… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Camaro – You’ve said the magic words – you don’t feel safe. These kinds of instincts are rarely wrong. Also know that you probably are already telegraphing a different vibe to her right now as you make these decisions and given her previous violence and what you describe, I’m like, “Why wait?” Get the fuck out tonight. Go sleep on a friend’s couch – whatever. Who knows what she’ll do if she thinks you are leaving? Talking about knives, creepy staring at the bathroom door while you are in it? She’s batshit dude, run – NOW!

AnnoyingGorilla
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@Rollo
Considered adding full archive links, maybe on sidebar, rather than just “Best of Year x?”
There’s hidden gems for both old and new readers.

Roused
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@Camaro You keep recognizing warning signals, that’s good. It also means it’s time to get out. You would not have mentioned the creepy situation with her standing outside while you were on the crapper unless you knew it was messed up, as well as dangerous. I’ve seen some creepy and fucked up shit in my life. A previous incarnation of my career was working in the media. You hang at the cop shop, courthouse and run out to breaking news enough and you witness first hand raw crazy. I kinda got a bit creeped by what you wrote. It’s one… Read more »

Softek
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@ scribblerg Thanks for the support. This is basically the only place I have left to go for advice/clarity on any of this stuff. tl;dr = I’m a doormat. I have the Doormat Operating System installed in my head. That’s the main problem in my life. I don’t know where I learned it or where I picked it up. But that’s what’s in there. I can remember a million examples of this programming all the way back from childhood. Self-sacrificing, self-defeating, ultimately self-destructing. And until I address that and CHANGE, well….I could climb to the highest mountain in the entire… Read more »

Roused
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Hey Not Born This Morning, What the fuck dude, who shit in your Wheaties this morning? Why the dickhead attitude? It’s one thing to have a reasonable argument with Rollo or anybody on this site. But you’re being a complete disrespectful moronic asswipe. Why do I say that? Because I respect the totality of what this place is and why it exists. I challenge you to have a tenth of one percent of the insight into gender dynamics as well as the fucking patience it takes to repeat yourself over and over for years to the men that arrive here… Read more »

GW
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Here here!! Nicely put Roused!

Agent p
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Holy fuck watching Uber girl brought back some memories for me. Back in Uni I was buying into the Bluepill lie big time and had tried to be captain save-a-ho by trying to domesticate one of those. Really bad idea. she was fucking damaged, sure enough a demon in bed, night one went down starting at the uni-bar and I pulled her in a matter of minutes, had her home and fucking my doors off in literally minutes. In a few weeks she was living with me. Sure enough over time she tried to jam a wedge between me and… Read more »

Agent p
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@Camaro, I just went back and read all your posts. RUN!!! is all I can say. Ok, actually have your jump bag packed and ready at the office or something, not at home. Stay cool, try to not to show too much behaviour that is different then how things have been for the past number of months so you don’t tip your hand. Prep your escape and GTFO in one single shot for your sake. Absolutely like the movie HEAT, you gotta be ready to drop everything and walk hard with no “easing out”. Chicks like this will “hoover” you.… Read more »

Agent p
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PS Camero. When I split with my number one crazy I had to deal with the hard truth that she was probably fucking one of my best friends and a bunch of people knew it. I realized that obviously he was no friend and likely a bunch of people around me knew it too and for whatever reason said nothing, so not friends either. Part of going into monk mode was to deal with that sad reality as well. It was kind of lonely but it felt good to be just me on my own in many ways. She destroyed… Read more »

stuttie
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Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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@Scribblerg It does not fight in the face of evidence. The in group preference that you are referring to is the idea of the female collective whereas I am talking specifically about gangs (not gangsta gangs – but groups of men with a common identity). The idea that men associate themselves in groups large or small groups with a certain identity (think of groups of male friends all the way to political parties) and they have within them rules that people obey by. While woman would relate to a group of women because of pussy. Men need common ‘ideals’ to… Read more »

OneKenobi
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Been there for about a year. Then somehow, after a lot of reading and analyzing stuff from my previous years, it finally hit me. Hypergamy is the best thing that can happen to women from their point of view (guess I’m in the Accepting phase of this shit). 10.000 years before, now, and 10.000 years from now on. It’s what they want, what they desire, what fulfills them on the deepest existential level. It’s the equivalent of us desiring unrestrained, unlimited sex with many HB10 way into old age. From their point of view our wish is despicable, from our… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@stuttie We should be entering the ridicule/shaming phase from the MSM in the next few years. Brace. It comes after the ‘ignore’ phase and before the ‘violent opposition’ phase. Which is followed by the ‘co-opt’ phase, if the movement survives the culling. Each has its difficulties In the ignore phase, the difficulty is getting the word out. Ridicule/shaming – doubt and radicalization Violent opposition – keeping your identity, or self, safe Co-opt – not getting co-opted and absorbed into the broader culture. And in all stages, we are helped by passion for truth and compassion – however expressed – for… Read more »

Liz
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” She makes little comments about how she’s never going to let me go, she casually talks about her obsession with knives and how that is one aspect she enjoys about the medical field. She’s only 5’4 and 105 lbs yet has the uncanny ability to move silently throughout the house. I was in the downstairs bathroom one night about 11pm taking a crap and when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she… Read more »

kfg
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@Camaro:

3. . . 2. . . 1 . . . Go!

farmlegend
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Re BPD – As a good personal friend of SJF in real life, in fact, the “most interesting” guy he generously referred to me as, please bear with me as I share the longest comment I’ve made in the manosphere, a universe where I’ve lurked since 2007 and only infrequently commented short and occasionally pithy remarks. If it causes one guy out there somewhere to avoid getting involved with one of these crazy bitches, it will be worth the hours I spent composing it (INTJ’s have a hard time writing fast). Before steering into the cosmic mindfuck that has been… Read more »

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@Dragonfly Your husband does rather demonstrate that he hasn’t been in a dangerously toxic relationship before with his reply. That’s not a bad thing; I mean, I would give people shit advice about how to deal with, say, a hostage circumstance because I’ve never been in one or had to deal with one. And I hope I will always give shit advice about that lol. But I bet there’s lots of counterintuitive stuff that can help you survive a circumstance like that that isn’t obvious if you haven’t lived through it. I know you’re just trying to help by posting… Read more »

Dragonfly
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My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity. Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.

It’s just like with a woman who stays with an abusive man – there’s something wrong with her to keep staying. She has incredibly low self-esteem and values whatever “significance” she thinks he brings to the relationship. A man who stays with a bpd girl doesn’t understand his own value.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Niko – Right, so you weren’t actually talking about “in-group preference”, you were talking about fraternity and male bonding. Try learning more about the words you use.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Niko – Clicked post when I didn’t mean to. This statement is an absolute hash of nonsense and gets right at your confusion: “Whereas I agree with your premise that men should not believe that they deserve better and just wait for it to fall from the sky; I believe a man of today should believe that he is deserving and fight to get it for himself.” First off, stick with what I’m saying if you are going to counter my comments. I never said that men shouldn’t wait for “it to fall from the sky”. You have mangled my… Read more »

Blaximus
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I don’t have much experience with bpd chicks, so this is a learning moment ( one of many here ) for me. You guys are phenomenal. @Dragonfly A man that’s with a bpd chick is not the same as a woman in an abusive relationship. There are different mechanics at work for men. the expectations for men are different in the relationship because men are not expected to flee at the first ( or tenth ) sign of trouble. We are problem solvers, sometimes to our own detriment. And then there’s love. We love differently. I’ve witnessed women turn off… Read more »

Liz
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Liz
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“My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity.” I agree, of course. But I can understand how a man might become embroiled by the bait and switch tactics of an unstable BPD type. Especially over a length of time when there is a real emotional investment (that would be when she’d take a turn for the worst, I’d assume). Mike is pretty smart about that stuff too, but he stayed with his ex girlfriend for three years and she was pretty toxic and crazy. Eventually… Read more »

Liz
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Liz
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Then of course there was the subsequent stalking….

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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@Scribblerg – since you want it word for word. “What you struggle to describe about how feminism is inculcated in schools and society is much better and more completely described via Rollo’s concept of the “Feminine Inmperative”.” Yes, fair. I never disagreed with that concept – although imperative* . Who says because I will not cite every single example I do not understand how feminism has affected the school system, social norms etc? Of course I do… It is irrelevant to the point. “Your comment on male ingroup preferences flies in the face of the known science. In fact men… Read more »

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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*agree with this point. There is a distinct need for an edit button here.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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“Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.”

Less so when you consider who he’s defending.

Try not to be petty. You’re capable.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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….Petty Crocker.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Niko – Note I said that you haven’t internalized what Rollo has written, which makes me wonder if you’ve read it. As for you offering some worthy counterpoint to his, lol. Perhaps you are one of those YouTubers who views negative comments and criticism as trolling and not substantive regardless. Let me be clear – the vid you posted is not informative, well conceived or compelling. Your commentary demonstrates PurplePillishness nonstop, and doesn’t even do so in an entertaining or informative way. I actually went back and watched more of your stuff after Rollo highlighted you, hoping that I had… Read more »

Andy
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Andy
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@Niko

I see you’ve meet our ferocious ankle biting Chihuahua, scribblerg. You might have to shake him off your leg every once in a while.

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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@Softek “Internals. The real bull work I have is facing myself and overcoming this pussy response to everything — letting everyone walk all over me. I’m dealing with a situation at the same time as all this mess….a client that doesn’t want to pay me for my work, and also expects me to take it back and redo the job for nothing. Everyone I’ve asked, including my friend who’s been in the business for 50 years, said he’s a lunatic and is being completely unreasonable and/or trying to take me for a ride. My work came out beautifully. That shouldn’t… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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@Dragonfly: “My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity.”

Are you suggesting that North Korean brainwashers had “sexual experience” with their POW victims, and that the victims desired it?

Or, alternatively, is it possible that due to a lack of relevant experience you have entirely missed the point?

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@All – And now you’ve witnessed Andy’s inability to articulate an actual argument. Just for the record, Andy’s admitted on these pages that he’s pathologically narcissistic and anti-social and that he’s working on it. I’m not, however, I do deal rhetorical, polemical deathblows to preening pseudo-intellectuality.

@Andy, I don’t “anklebite” – I punch directly in the face as I did here. It’s you who’s the master of cheapshots, but I get it, you are working on that and I wish you luck with it.

redlight
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redlight
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No one is sure if the rapey scene in High Plains drifter comes from Ernest Tidyman (Shaft, Oscar for French Connection screenplay), or Dean Riesner (Dirty Harry, famous script doctor). I suspect Tidyman since the writer/reporter loved his vices: women, drinking, gambling, stealing.

“If you wanted to get acquainted why didn’t you just say so?” See any shit tests here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xK-oyqDBEJ8

redlight
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redlight
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and the scene to completion:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZD0JRoKSq4

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Niko – No, I don’t want to even engage you anymore, it’s not worth it. Get back to your “busy life”, please. As I am.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Softek Sorry to see you in this state, man. It really can look like there’s no hope sometimes, but if you keep on you eventually end up somewhere. Your self-evaluation is very good. I would expect that from you, you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about your life and brain and shit. Yup, the central issue isn’t really your circumstances, it’s your internal self-concept. And also, yes, you materially are much farther along now than you were even a few months ago. That’s important to remember. It seems like involvement with a cluster-b is just a rite of passage… Read more »

SJF
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Forge said: “So I pushed back against SJF’s characterization of how a borderline girl can be good for a man earlier, but in your circumstance I’d actually try to frame it like that and actualize it like that.” “I mean, I’m being silly here but you see the trick. You’re making the self-doubt an external force that doesn’t reflect ‘you’ rather than actually feeling like you really are a piece of shit. That voice doesn’t tell the truth, it’s not real, its a demon in your head and it’s just part of who you are to have to ignore it/beat… Read more »

The Question
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@ Rollo Tomassi

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about BPD women, especially the erroneous way other men respond or advise them. I knew (know?) men like this and never knew what to say when I witnessed this behavior. If a man hasn’t taken the Red Pill he’s not going to understand why or how another man can be manipulated by a BPD woman beyond the sex.

I doubt they’ll do it, but if I get the chance I’ll refer them to that post and hope it’s not all lost for them.

SJF
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@Dragonfly Rollo said:”There is much more to his circumstance than valuing sex over his sanity and your simplism is only lacking him into it.” “If I’m angry or defensive it’s only because I want to spare men like Camaro, Softek and your brother the same experience you and hubby so casually dismiss.” The problem with the statement that your husband made in the current narrative is that it was trite. Very trite. Forge was right. You can do better. (But that is not an invitation to blather on. You are in a forum and at a figurative dinner table discussing… Read more »

ChocDoc
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ChocDoc
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Lose the frame, lose the game !!

When i read the BPD experiences of you all, i must be happy not to have met such a creature (yet).

The rape scene of Clint Eastwood was very nice. That’s the only way to treat such a BPD woman…and then leave her !!

But like Yareally said it before…the risks nowadays are way too hight. Thus, keeping distance is the only way in my opinion

Liz
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Liz
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Rollo, I agree that getting snared into a relationship with a BPD woman isn’t necessarily about self esteem or sex (although, from what I’ve seen secondhand I would think she would have to bring something pretty special to the table for a guy to put up with that). There are about as many guys with BPD girlfriend/ex wife/wife stories in the fighter pilot community as there are heavy drinkers. They definitely didn’t lack for either self esteem or sex (at least until they got entangled, THEN they had depression and self esteem issues). That said, I don’t why any version… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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@All What scribblerg wrote January 22nd, 2016 at 8:31 am bears elaborating on. Recently an incident came up in a group of my IRL guy friends where one of the guys had an insolent moment and told one of the more prominent acquaintances to fuck off. He reasons that a guy has to stand up for himself and defend himself (even if physically like in a bar fight) because that is what being a real man. In reality, he is burning bridges and it has had a pin-ball effect on some tremendously high value friendships in the quality group. He’s… Read more »

Dragonfly
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@Forge “Less so when you consider who he’s defending. Try not to be petty. You’re capable.” Considering the way some of the commenters humiliate and degrade each other’s choices and experiences here all the time, and Rollo doesn’t bat an eyelash, my husband’s words are light in comparison. Last year when I had barely given birth to our second son, Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways – attacking everything about me, calling my life shit, calling me all sorts of names, all while I was trying to merely comment… Read more »

SJF
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@ Liz

“That said, I don’t why any version of “run away from that! She’s a trainwreck!” would be actively harmful.”

No one at all wouldn’t say, and indeed no one didn’t say run away from that. It is how it is said. The subcomms are are there and they are very clear to see. Salt in wounds. Dragonfly’s comment from her husband was very, very insensitive (and terribly second hand). And her explanations for it were nonsensical.

Hence, the push-back.

redlight
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redlight
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Woman as victim. Men shamed for doing nothing.

Maybe we could decorate this site in pink and make it safe for everyone.

Or stay out of the locker room if you can’t handle the talk.

SJF
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@Dragonfly January 22nd, 2016 at 10:12 am

You entered a masculine space in which TRM has a certain Frame. It is this blogs frame. And you proceeded to keep your own Frame in your comments. Frame is not power. And you did not bring the group into your Frame. It happens.

kobayashii1681
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“when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she wasn’t making a sound it was like she was frozen. Scared the hell out of me. After asking her what she was doing she replied, “were you talking to a girl in there? Because if you were I was going to go upstairs and…” she stopped herself there.”

Wow…..wow!

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader
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Niko In group preference can be defined as preference within a group. Perhaps I should have defined the group. There is no such thing as the male collective if you prefer to put it as follows. Whether you want to call that fraternity or gangs which was I believe the reference I used in my video (as per the use from Jack Donovan’s book) it is irrelevant to the point. Men within those groups will show in group preference for that particular group. There’s your problem, in your definition of “ingroup preference”. What you are describing is “SUBgroup preference”. It’s… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Dragonfly You and your husband don’t know shit about what we’re talking about. Don’t comment on the subject of dealing with a Cluster-B female ever again. I’ve experienced it personally. I’ve spoken with multiple psychological professionals about the subject. For the record, BPD is something professionals usually won’t touch due to the level of manipulation they will drag you through. It’s like when a chemist tells you there’s chemicals they won’t touch… that’s shit you, as the 100% completely and totally uneducated layman need to just keep your mouth shut about and listen. It is a situation you clearly lack… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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@Rollo: “Dragonfly is only defending the wisdom of her husband here because she’s invested in the choice she made to pair with.”

She is relating it because she’s also doing her own virtue signalling here.

farmlegend
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@sun Wukong ” For the record, BPD is something professionals usually won’t touch due to the level of manipulation they will drag you through.” Agree. Even if the patient hits on 20 out of 21 markers for BPD, many professionals are reluctant to make that diagnosis. Perhaps owing to the dire track record of treatment for this disorder. Speaking of the term “disorder”, Dr. Tara Palmatier (AVFM’s resident expert) has remarked that she doesn’t like the term “personality disorders”, preferring “character disorders”, as she believes those with PD’s truly have defective character. She has further opined that BPD, in particular,… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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“….Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways…”

ROFLMAO.

Yeah, Glenn can be like that sometimes.

Too bad they don’t make band-aids for feelings.

Blaximus
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@ SJF

” A mature man can have a dust-up. But not be afraid to shake hands and have a beer with his recent adversary in a group. And move on to continue the cohesiveness and high upside that that group can accomplish.”

This absolutely.

One of the hallmarks of a true friend is that he will be one of the first ones to pull your coattails and/or tell you when you’re full of shit. Friends like that, ones you can ” dust up ” with and remain close as ever, that’s a treasure.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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Rollo,

I honestly do not believe women are able to grasp the concept of Life and Death circumstances when it comes to men. It will usually be distilled down to some level of triteness.

Can we really expect a female to objectively look at something she has no true concept of? And it doesn’t help that she chooses to parrot her hubby’s insensitivity and lack of knowledge on the subject.

Par for the course.

What we discuss here is always proven and amplified when women ” try ” to help.

Kate Minter
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Dr. T and Paul Elam did several video hangouts about their book “Say Goodbye to Crazy” that I found very helpful. I haven’t read the book, but I imagine it is similar to the conversations. Whatever you do in dealing with these creatures, keep people who love and understand you close, show no mercy, and do not despair. Be prepared to be labelled a psychopathic abuser because you do not yield to manipulation. Stay strong! The only way you win with these people is to not have them in your life, not have them know where you live, and not… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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@Blaximus

ScribblerG is a friend of mine and he’s not full of shit.

And I think Rollo would have his back in a second as it relates to comments on The Rational Male.

Scribbler has show the four tactical virtues of the masculine here many times. Strength, courage, mastery and honor among men (no matter what anyone thinks on the last one).

Us 52-54 year-olds have a wise perspective on why that is. We’ve been through some trying and experience-building times. And we perhaps don’t suffer fools gladly.

Blaximus
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@SJF To be clear, I love me some scribblerG. You know, honestly? I didn’t think I’d live this long – half a century plus. Men in my family, some had a tendency to burn out quick. But I definitely cosign the ” trying and experience-building times “. There was a time in my life when I found myself on the Garden State Parkway down by Seaside Heights. I was driving my baby blue 1976 Caddy coupe deville at a nice 120+ mph clip, when ” problems ” I was having in life made me aim the car at a toll… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong Imagine if every single time you saw a chance to control someone, even if it meant psychologically destroying them, you were cool with it so long as you got what you wanted. That’s what these women are. Sex is just one tool in the massive arsenal they utilize. Gross over simplifications like “Stop thinking with your dick.” demonstrate a complete and total misunderstanding of the nature of the beast. Dragonfly is demonstrating the female default to pretend as if the female tool of psychological manipulation does not exist. She’s using quotes from her husband to signal that it’s… Read more »

SJF
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@Farmlegend

After all is said and done (which won’t happen, and us masculine types don’t seek a completion in life) the glass may be less full but you still have your support groups to go to. After your short stint with MGTOW, I hear there are some decent women that show up to the meetings.

scray
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scray
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@kfg ya, i mean…i ought to know, i dealt with an insane bpd hot chick not long after getting a little success in the game. just crazy shit hot-cold. i didn’t even realize it was bpd drama until after everything had flamed out and i managed to spent a little bit of time away from her and recover my sanity. pretty sure i wrote about it a bit at the time — and it’s pathetic! i was a mess….punching walls and shit during fights….leave work middle of the day to go have sex even tho we had just fucked in… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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I see what the feminine is doing here. Trying to turn a complete dyad into an incomplete (or no) dyad. BPD and men as victims is a complete and utter dyad that begs for “completion”. Yes, men are victims here. Women use dyadic completion when claiming that men are immoral in certain attitudes,acts and sexual strategies because there has to be a victim. (Via the FI and social conventions they use moral condemnation of the masculine to imply victims in red pill and game.) They also try to imply as totally incomplete the diad when men are harmed by women.… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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lol… yet more follow-up from the uber chick. http://miami.cbslocal.com/2016/01/21/miami-doctor-placed-on-leave-suspended-from-uber-after-attacking-driver/ Her neighbor Ruby Ferro told CBS4’s Natalia Zea the behavior she saw in the video is nothing like the young lady she has known since she was a child. “I just got surprised because they’re a beautiful family,” said Ferro. “Anjali and her sister, they’re good girls. They’re quiet people. They never have a problem.” Ferro is urging those who are basing their opinions of her from the one video to have a heart. “You could be a beautiful person but one day you have a problem, the job or the… Read more »

SJF
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@Blax

“To be clear, I love me some ScribblerG.”

I didn’t mean to imply you, which I inadvertently did. I meant to refer to some certain others.

SJF
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SJF
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“But that doesn’t mean you’re a bad person”

But it does mean someone is trying to un-complete the dyad. Trash the hell out of an Uber driver and you are a bad person is a complete dyad.

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