A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

733 comments on “A Teachable Moment

  1. My pleasure @scribblerg – I also get a lot out of it – both the comments and the act of putting my thoughts in writing.

    I’m also going to start assessing the girl’s personality type after every date, just to get in the habit of analyzing women, although I’m not very good at it yet. .

    I’ll use the categories set out in the excellent Franco/South Practical Psychology book which is often cited here: Good Girl, Materialista, Adventuress (and can High or Low Self Esteem versions of each of those). The tags are self-explanatory but we just need to remember that no one is an archetype – all women are a mix but we look for the primary driver in each case.

    (Incidentally Franco/South post on the excellent PUA-Zone.com forums, and there’s another very good poster there called The Thin Man who also has a similar set of categories but I’ll use the Franco/South version because it is more clearly explained – I don’t have time to find the link for The Thin Man’s version but he has some very good examples of each type).

    Anyway: my redhead from the FR was a High Self-Esteem Adventuress. High Self-Esteem because of how she presented and the vibe and the confidence she had in being feminine and letting me take the lead, plus strong family, close to her brother etc. Adventuress because she was an army brat and moved every two years as a kid and lived all over (and still does as an adult) and even at 29 doesn’t want to settle down and is still looking for excitement and new things. Overall good although obvious caveat that she may get bored in an LTR (not that I’m looking).

    1. @Culum S. I wanted to clarify one point I thought I was implying, i.e., enjoy the journey of the hunt. I certainly could join you, but life is a series of moments and remember, regardless of the outcome, it is a moment to savor. I get that you did, and I hope without regret. Thanks again.

      @All commenters

      There have been so many great/useful comments and I didn’t tabulate all the great responses, so let me thank by what I remember and excuse for not calling everyone out. This is a great forum with many intelligent, knowledgeable and mature men in it. I am happy to be part of it.

      Whoever gave the definitions of Frame Vs. Power, Brilliant! Best I have seen anywhere.

      Thanks for the book tips and video clips. I need to dig back into reading this stuff more again.

      Some of the best comments are the one’s that challenge our ego investment in our current position. Which leads me to my question:

      Question: I am late 40s, 14 y marriage with kids to a 7.5ish (subjectively I rate her higher, but I am trying to be objective) former virgin (only been with me). Marriage was sliding 15 months ago as she was starting to disrespect me openly and I was pissed as hell (inside) and wound up finding red pill and healing my soul. I would say I am half done, but have picked the low hanging fruit so to speak. Now I must really change my wiring to really master my own life (and thereby cement mastery elsewhere). We have had sex almost everyday and sometimes multiple times per day for about a year now. This is great and all, but since I (physically) don’t need sex this much, I think I am using sex as a buffer to avoid facing some real changes I need to make in other areas of my life, i.e., career/finances, and child rearing (which I can only explain in terms of “I want to see better behavior (for their success) from my kids” and “I want to enjoy them more on a daily basis.” Any advice is welcome, but I am an analytical/driver type and would love some kick me in the face reading material to get me out of my complacence in these areas. Thanks for any links, quotes, etc.

  2. @SJF

    Ohhhh. Power is leverage in all it’s forms as well as the jealous guarding of one’s ability to exercise options and to maneuver as one finds suitable.

    Hmmm……so I gots to blow up her frame if I wanna dominate her, no? Hmm one step closer.

  3. @Culum: that is a nice book. They are very much for vetting out Low Self-Esteem women.

    I suspect I’m married to a LSE Good Girl, which I think of the LSE types is the most likely to end up married (I think that LSE Adventuress is somewhat easy to vet out even for Blue Pill men).

    I’m not sure what to do about the LSE aspects.

  4. @Culum Struan and ScribblerG

    I’m really hoping that Scribbler can find the time to read that book, because I think it would be good for him to use the practical advice on screening women. I think he would also be very, very good at assessing the personality type, analyzing the high self esteem or low self esteem type and vetting for high sex drive or low sex drive.

    Of course the downside of vetting is that a guy’s going to end up with a lot of discards. Which means you gotta open more women and have more substrate to work with. It’s not easy.

  5. Oh and one more thing: each of these can also come in a High Sex Drive (HD) or Low Sex Drive (LD) version – so it is actually 12 combinations – 3x2x2 (and actually more combinations than that because no one is an archetype…variety of people is infinite)

  6. @Yollo

    “Hmmm……so I gots to blow up her frame if I wanna dominate her, no?”

    Not exactly. You have to enter into the relationship with good frame and your own mental point of origin. And then not surrender that in proceeding to carry that relationship forward. If you surrender your frame you are no longer alpha masculine and you are less attractive. If you compromise your ideals and your mission for her, you become less attractive.

    That is entirely different than blowing up her frame. Blowing up her frame implies destroying part of who she is and her goodness that you are attracted to her for in the first place. You bring her into your frame. She is welcome to come into your frame. Frame is not power. Blowing up her frame implies coercive power. Better to have masculine, attractive frame that she willingly submits to rather than Frame you are negotiating for with alleged power.

    You see the difference?

    I respect my wife. Been with her for 27 years. I don’t try to blow up her frame. If I would do that I’d just be asshole, dick Mr. SJF. If I don’t bring her into my frame on any one occasion, I call it what it is and I don’t force it. I can live to fight another day. Of course this is tempered by married man’s game. Nexting is not necessarily as available or desirable as it is in single man game.

    Like Van Morrison says:

    After everything I’ve worked for, not goin’ to throw everything away

    After everything I worked so hard for, I’m not goin’ to give it all away

    I just need to take a raincheck, I can live to fight another day

  7. If a guy intends to fuck a woman, he has to report to the police 24hrs before the act! Hahahahaaa….

    By the time the girls in the west pass all the laws that they want passed, there will be no fun even for them.

    Even as early as in pre-school, girls will playfully pick on a boy and then the boy will playfully chase. They want to get it to the point where if the boy chases, “CALL THE POLICE?!?” That is not really civilization. There are some aspects of human interaction you cannot legislate. Otherwise life becomes just one long grey boring drab.

  8. @SJF; Married man’s game supposedly is harder than LTR and PUA game. I keep reading that all over the place, but find it hard to believe. I am a quiet guy, so PUA game would be challenging for me, as I have been married or LTR all of my adult life. I have been studying the game videos from several of the PUAs on U-tube, because they have such a great attitude towards women, abundance mentality, being the prize, dominance, and just having fun.

  9. @SJF

    Congratulations man. 27 years. Heh. It’s bound to change something about your approach to her and her quirks. My early experience with the opposite sex, including family, has been fucking horrible. I don’t know if I want to prepare for a future where I’m not giving my women anxiety. If I shed that as a matter of course to mastering the game, they’re all fucking lucky. I got a lot of catching up to do. Lot’s of growing up to do too on my part.

    Thanks for clarifying it for me. I read the two books, but I guess I should read them again for enrichment.

  10. @ Forge

    I’ve actually been doing the alone time thing, since I figured her seeing me vulnerable is just not a good idea. I didn’t even think of that as soft dread, but I can definitely see how it is. She’s responded accordingly every time I’ve done that.

    The tough thing with the boyfriend/girlfriend thing is she explicitly stated that means not having sex with other people. I’m having a hard time taking that with a grain of salt. Should I take that with a grain of salt?

    On the other hand, months ago she asked me if I didn’t want to be her boyfriend because that would mean I couldn’t have sex with other girls. And I said yes. And yet, here we are, still seeing each other. It’s been turbulent, but from all the field reports I’ve read, ALL relationships are turbulent. That’s what keeps them going — the competition anxiety, insecurity, etc.

    Anyway, I haven’t committed to her, and am still on the fence about how to handle that, but I’ve been loving on top of being firm. For all the ambiguity and bluntness it’s not like I haven’t shown her any love.

    She HAS gotten better about not freaking out when I don’t talk to her, and has said — and shown — that she’s working really hard on this. I’ve made it clear more than once that we both have issues that we’d have whether or not we were in each other’s lives, and that she’s not responsible for my problems, and I’m also not responsible for hers. But we can keep seeing each other because we like each other and have fun together. When it stops being fun and turns into nightmare-stress levels, it’s time to pull the reins in and re-orient the situation. Relationships should complement your life, not be the focus of it — much less be a detriment or a hindrance to it.

    I think I’ve actually been handling this relationship pretty well, all things considered, but it doesn’t change the core issues I have with depression/anxiety and my ambition in life.

    You’re dead on about my perception being potentially fucked up because of that. Between that, and reading Rollo’s posts on BPD…it’s a lot to process.

    He also has that post, “Case Study: The Crazy,” where he points out that all the ‘complaints’ the girl has are her PREREQUISITES for being in a relationship with her.

    i.e., suggesting other girls are interested, treating her like a ‘call girl,’ etc.

    Girls wanting dominance in sex has been a huge lesson for me in and of itself. How well they respond to literally being told what to do, ordered around, being rough with them, etc. She went out of her way to buy lingerie and dress up like a slut for me, despite her saying that she can’t stand girls that are slutty/trashy, etc.

    If I took that LITERALLY, like a Blue Pill guy would, her wanting to act like that FOR ME wouldn’t make any sense. It seems contradictory. She said she can’t stand girls that ‘degrade themselves’ like that — but then she wants to do it for me? What?

    Of course, it isn’t contradictory at all from a more enlightened perspective. I’m only just starting to understand this ‘covert’ thing with women, and to look at their behaviors and basically ignore what they say, because it’s more an expression of feelings/emotions than actual deep-held beliefs that they have.

    I could hear her say she finds strip clubs and porn disgusting, and think that she’s really puritanical, and the best way would be to have vanilla sex with her, and not do anything too crazy or forward.

    And yet we’ve had some pretty crazy sex, and her craving for dominance and even being mildly degraded has been crystal clear. I found it exciting, and I’m sure that my being unrestrained with her, and not feeling weird about being dominant and forceful with her, is a big part of why she’s still around. We have a great time and a huge part of that is I don’t judge her for her sexuality or any of her sexual desires and am generally more than happy to indulge in them with her.

    She’s told me she wanted other guys to act the way I did with her sexually, but if you have to tell them, it ruins it, or you tell them something you want, and then they try to do it, but are scared, can’t be authentic about it, and it ruins everything.

    The only reason I was able to respond that way, too, was because of TRM. Unplugging and not being ashamed of having the kind of sex mainstream feminists would be horrified of — the men being in control, dominant, etc., which, as it turns out, is what most women really crave and want men to fulfill without having to ask for it.

    The comments here have definitely been helping a lot, on top of having read TRM and having some reference point for dealing with this stuff. Learning more every day.

    And thanks for the insights Forge — lots of wisdom in there, and a lot of things clicked. I’ll have to reread and really get this stuff into my head. I’ve accumulated a lot already though, and I’m happy that I can appreciate that I’m farther along than I was a year ago. In a much better place despite the problems I’m having at the moment.

  11. @Pinelero: Married man game is harder than LTR game and LTR game is harder.

    Whenever you make “Next” a more costly option (and the *woman knows it*), it makes it harder. And with many marriages leading to a “Next” costing half the man assets, restricted access to his children and so on…

    Furthermore, marriage and LTR frequently place the man in a provider role, which can make some things harder as well.

  12. @Softie – I’m on a work project this weekend so i have to concentrate on that but I’m reading your comments and the advice with great interest. I reflect back on how I got lost in my erstwhile wife and see so many parallels – NPD is just another kind of personality disorder. My take is not so formal, and may be off but I had a thought worth sharing.

    I was blown away by K. when I met her. I can tell you the details of the first night we met still, I was so blown away I didn’t even try and fuck her. She gave me a kiss at the elevator where I left her in the hotel she was staying and I just kind of floated out of the hotel. She was so feminine, so cutepretty/sexy and seemed very real and down to earth. I always claimed it was love at first sight. I was 20, poor fucking schmuck I was. I had been with maybe a dozen girls by then, as I’ve said I truly have lost count and it was 33 years ago. I called her as soon as i got home (pre-cell phone era) and told her, “You can’t go home tomorrow.” She replied “I know.” And I was done.

    I thought I’d hit pussy lotto. I thought she was “the one” – from the get go. So when she began to become bitchy and nasty and difficult, and seemed utterly to not be able to ever negotiate or apologize or ever give up in an argument, I decided at some point that it was me – sort of. It was really more like the ongoing battle you have going on in your head right now, I’d go back and forth. I asked her to marry me, and I remember how she wasn’t really that excited about it with me, rather, she couldn’t wait to get on the phone and tell her family (mom & sisters), it was weird. As we came closer to making plans, I knew it was off so I broke up with her and moved out of the place we lived in (I’m 23 now) and for a week I was utterly unmoored. I was depressed and anxious, but it was more than that, it was like the floor had been ripped out from underneath my feet or something, I was unable to function, so I went back.

    I’ve told the stories of the various ultimatums I gave her over the years, so I won’t reprise that here. But part of what happened is that I grew up. As I got to my late 20s, I also started to have high value, beautiful women throwing themselves at me. I also started therapy about my abuse issues again and was building up boundaries and starting to understand my self-esteem issues (long way from done). But when we split up when I was 30 – my doing in some ways as I put my foot down and she began fucking another guy, and then stopped – I was done, and realized she was never going to treat me well, I again pitched into a vortex of emotions.

    I drank way too much and smoked a lot of weed and did blow, but it was funny, when I finally got some help 3 years later, it was because I was fucking around with my shotgun and really close to blowing my head off. I would fantasize about hanging myself, seeing my body swinging from the rope all day long. But I did pull out of it and began a long therapeutic journey back.

    My point? There was something about the combination of my abuse issues and the loss of my mom when I was 11 that set me up to get lost in her. And there was something about her covert NPD that had her be unable to ever truly be emotionally vulnerable and real with me, or ever see me as a real person. It was like two sick puzzle pieces fitting together. It was like my identity fused with hers (not hers with mine, fyi). Co-dpendent in the extreme – and why not, I mean I got very little positive feedback growing up. Just her being with me was so validating, and she was a prize to have on the arm. Guys who met me knew instantly I’d bagged a Dime. I’ve mentioned she was homecoming queen and prom queen, super pretty, rollo would have made her a pour girl even with her A+-cup tits, trust me, you could swim in her green eyes, she had a mane of strawberry blonde hair and a beautiful face and the best ass ever – there was literally a half page picture of her ass in her high school yearbook I shit you not.

    I also pedestalized women in the extreme. Mom dying in early adolescence didn’t help, and I was also from this super traditional Irish catholic family and world, so I was just set up to place her above me. I relate to you when you talk about your issues and I can’t help but wonder how much of this is your stuff playing in too? Sure, she may be BPD – like I”ve said, I’m not knowledgeable about that stuff – but you can’t fix her. You can only deal with you.

    And I guess that’s my suggestion. Don’t do anything drastic with her, rather, work on pulling back inside. You seem to be in a swirl right now, do you have any tools or techniques for calming down and getting centered? I use the Sedona Method to rid myself of the negative thoughts and I find by doing that, I’m in a much better place to set boundaries, make decisions, and interact with people in healthy ways. If you don’t have tools to turn yourself into a “self-cleaning oven” as I call it, your recovery from your other shit will always be temporary and rocky. When you are in a fucked up state, you can’t see any of this clearly and of course it’s impossible to hold frame.

    As for her, I cosign much of what has been said and reiterate what I’ve been advising for months. Along with everything else, you have Oneitis. The only cure for it (not the other shit) is to sink your cock into another woman. Hell, just pursuing another one and getting some play will help. For me, there is no other way to stop Oneitis. Experiences are often more powerful than self-analysis, which will drive you crazy. The Sedona Method Release Technique is experiential, not analytical and it helps me to experience the release of negativity and get calmer. Analysis does not, in fact for me, it can grind me into the dust as I get caught in spirals of anxiety and negative thinking. I think we are similar in this regard.

    Like I said, I’m working so if ya wanna ping me on Skype, I’m around. Great work, fyi, I continue to be blown way by your development. Seriously, I’m not saying that to make you feel better, I get a huge amount our of your commentary now, so thanks.

  13. Correction, where I say it was “funny” when I was suicidal what I meant to say is that I was relatively easy to stop drinking and other shit, that was not THE issue.

  14. @Pinelero

    It depends. Your premise is not entirely clear. (Could be the sentence and paragraph structure, or lack thereof….)

    Married man game does not have the power of next as readily available.
    Married men use buffers that are readily available to them to make it “easier”

    Married man game is not harder if someone told you this shit 20 years ago and you had mastery of it. And knew how to maintain that mastery.

    It is harder when you let the relationship slip into your bad habits and then you have to climb out of the hole.

    Married man game is definitely easier and good when it is easy and good, when the man “just gets it” and doesn’t fall into the Female stages of Manipulation described in the Joseph W. South book. Married man game is more comfortable when it is going good because the man has a certain level of “release from constraint” in the accomplishment that the relationship is good and he has realized his own mission statement.

    As long as their is easy pussy for the man, either PUA or single man game or married man game can be sublime.

    Game has fungible tactics for advancing his sexual strategy that are universal for PUA game, single man game, LTR game, or married man LTR game. If you use a red pill lens, PUA game is entirely adaptable to married man game.

  15. “Rollo, not sure if missed your update or where the link is for your live streaming chat today?”

    Wait five minutes? Pacific Standard time.

  16. If guys are struggling to figger out how to be anonoymous on YouTube, do the following:

    1. I do all this under incognito browsing in chrome.
    2. Great a new gmail account not linked to your other gmail/google account
    3. log into gmail in incognito mode under the new account.
    4. go up top right and click on the dots and click on youtube

    voila, semi-anonymous youtube account…still know your IP and at some level if you are using google they track everything. but it would be very hard to dox you with that set up.

  17. @all

    Thank you for the comments and encouragement, I don’t expect immediate results, and will investigate the sources you mention… Game is something I have peripherally understood but not practiced and I am starting my journey, expect more from me.

  18. @Culum

    props on the FR…getting better for sure…

    “She kept giving me compliments..how she liked my grey hair, how 36 is the perfect age etc (she also, very unusually for a 29 year old, doesn’t seem to be looking for an LTR).”

    lol…

    how’s that beta baiting feel in situ?…lol…and did you spot it in real time?…

    “Even more than the sex, my favourite moment on a date is when you feel the electric sexual chemistry as the “love bubble” forms – the moment when your eyes lock…”

    try that across the room…with a girl you’ve never met…lol… when some girl’s hindbrain has her ‘pinging’ the room for ‘alpha’…and locks eyes with you…stare her down (laser with intent…don’t forget your smirk…lol)…and feel the sexual ‘vibe’ spike…lol…it might take a couple minutes (depending on her base-level dominance ‘needs’…lol) but hold it til she looks away…it’s trippy…lol…(and, yes, it will feel like you are violating a social convention/rude…lol)

    “and even at 29 doesn’t want to settle down”

    again…lol…

    ” and is still looking for excitement and new things.”

    not necessarily mutually exclusive you know = AF/BB…lol…

    “It’s two-fold – one is actually noticing small things like that (I remember a couple of years ago in a club when I was out with a good looking Natural and I actually noticed a woman checking him out – it felt great to notice) and the second thing which is in some ways more important is to actually TRUST that flash. To believe that it means what it means. And for that you need some reference experiences of acting on it successfully. ”

    your subcomms are obviously getting better…props on putting in the work…just for the peanut gallery…how far outside your comfort zone was/is this when you started/now?…

    “And now I don’t know if she’ll come over straight to my place next week.”

    make your predictions…what does your gut say?…

    ” I’ll try, but there’s always the risk of ASD (although I was carefully not to get her too turned on for exactly this reason)”

    this pinged her beta provider circuit = she’s a ‘good girl’…so, it’s working against you…

    ” and more importantly, given her age and mine, some urge to lock me into Provider mode and slow things down.”

    do ya think?…lol…

    good luck!

  19. @Monty

    welcome!…

    i don’t have time to get into details but…

    “What I am asking is, is there a way to move back to those glimpses of Alpha and beyond them, without destroying what I’ve built for a family… While improving it overall…”

    YES!…(i did this…it’s been about 4 years for me) and more…and this is one of the best places to start…

    good luck!

  20. @Monty

    “Game is something I have peripherally understood but not practiced and I am starting my journey, expect more from me.”

    There is some danger in “purple pill” advice such as that from Athol Kay. The reason is that you can’t be half in on red pill. And it leans in to much to the feminine. And risks de-polarizing the masculine–feminine desire dynamic. The red pill does not endorse purple pill.

    And indeed red pill may not be for you. But Game is important for your masculine power and for your sexual strategy.

    That being said, the first thing in waking the marriage up after 35 years is to start reading on shit tests (referred to fitness tests by the purple pill). Understand what they are and be able to deal with shit tests. And then distinguish them differently from “comfort tests” Athol Kay has some primers on this. I can only list two links, but at the bottom of each essay are links to similar essays.

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2010/05/some-common-fitness-tests-and-what-isnt-a-fitness-test/

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/10/fitness-testing-vs-loyalty-testing/

    Another first thing also to do is to eliminate contempt in the marriage if it exists either way from the husband or wife.

  21. @soft

    I figured her seeing me vulnerable is just not a good idea

    actually since you want (need really) to turn her off completely …

  22. @Yolo

    “Ohhhh. Power is leverage in all it’s forms as well as the jealous guarding of one’s ability to exercise options and to maneuver as one finds suitable.

    Hmmm……so I gots to blow up her frame if I wanna dominate her, no? Hmm one step closer.”

    SJF got this earlier, and kfg had a great example of the distinction, but let me see if I can make it more clear with examples.

    Power is your ability to enact changes to reality. Frame is your concept about how you think reality should be. They tend to track each other but are distinct.

    If you were a king of old who had the ability to have a person beheaded on a whim, but you were petty and inconsistent and more clever people were always manipulating you, then you had tons of power but no frame.

    For the opposite, think of the figures in old westerns – lone men with little money, no home, the most power they have is a gun – but they know precisely who they are and what they want to accomplish, and what they will or will not tolerate. That’s tons of frame with little power.

    Both of the things are related. In the first case, even though the king’s frame is weak people are incentivized to enter it because of his power. But were it not for fear, they would have contempt for him and his wishes and preferences because he has no frame – people are in his frame because they have to be, not because they want to be. They probably hate his frame.

    In the second case, a woman may well fall under the lone gunman’s spell simply from the strength of his frame – he knows exactly what he wants and what he’ll tolerate, and that gives him an addicting air. He ‘smells’ like a leader. And so people may idolize him just for that – even though his lack of power makes for no practical reason to associate with him.

    Ideally, you have some of both.

    @Blaximus

    “….fucking blizzard”

    Dude, I’m jealous. I want to go snowshoeing.

  23. @Pinerelo

    “Married man’s game supposedly is harder than LTR and PUA game. I keep reading that all over the place, but find it hard to believe. I am a quiet guy, so PUA game would be challenging for me, as I have been married or LTR all of my adult life.”

    The learning curve in the very beginning might be sharper for PUA game – that approach anxiety is a bitch. But past that, it’s easier bc of the low stakes in each interaction. If you fuck up, NEXT and you just learned something. In LTR game, a fuckup can contribute to severe consequences.

    Also, men lose a lot of hand just by being in an LTR in the modern West. You’re just expected to take a subservient role, and if you don’t you get huge pushback.

  24. Men lose a lot of hand just by being in an LTR in the modern West. You’re just expected to take a subservient role, and if you don’t you get huge pushback.

    Precisely, the loss of hand is due to her having hand with the Magic Pussy Syndrome (as it it referred to by the authors of Practical Female Psychology book mentioned today) and what I refer to in a marriage as her playing the Hide the Vagina game.

    I just searched through a hundred of Rollo’s essay’s to find one of his best on “how do you keep the marriage fresh, Rollo?”

    Must read:

    http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/

  25. Forge
    I know that when depression hits me, things I usually think are great I start going over and over in my head until I’m convinced that it’s the worst thing ever and nothing can fix it. I’ve just kinda learned to recognize the pattern and tell myself, ‘alright, I’m just not in a state where I have good perspective right now. I’ll just wait till tomorrow when I’m better and then I’ll see things more clearly.’

    This is a form of Gaming yourself. Or a form of self-knowing, for the Game-phobic. It’s important to maintain state, maintain frame, and part of that is talking & doing to put away such dark, sun-obscuring clouds.

    I’m also going to reiterate the importance of not “catastrophizing”, i.e. regarding any setback no matter how small as a major failure.

  26. @Culum – nice FR… and I’m glad the Shame clip made sense… ironic title notwithstanding…

    On your FR – why oh why oh why won’t you try and pull her? Even if you couldn’t, trying sets up the day 2 much better. Now you need to start over again – yes I know that you always need to start over but it is easier to start over from a more entitled place than a less entitled place!

    Like you go to pull her and she says she can’t – but at that point all kinds of other truth can slip out “I want to fuck you, but XXXX” Etc.

    Think about why you aren’t attempting the pull.

    Good stuff!

  27. Hey Sentient! Thanks, I haven’t seen the film. Ya, looks like it shows a lot more when the clip starts earlier. That’s good acting.

    Note for the watchers – see how she’s trying to suppress her (very strong) IOI’s. That’s a great way to screen for genuine interest. Girls who are just trying to use their sex appeal to get something from you will tend to amplify weak IOI’s instead – like grooming and smiling.

    That’s what I mean when I talk about ‘redlight vs. greenlight’ IOI’s.

    For example, these girls are just looking for attention:

    http://media.tumblr.com/09125e251ec9dcc3b582c7618ccd1a33/tumblr_inline_mmcdyxcVAj1qz4rgp.gif

    https://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2013-10/enhanced/webdr05/28/19/anigif_enhanced-buzz-22945-1383004633-1.gif

    That’s bait, not desire.

  28. Well written article. It’s important for people to have an open mind and be receptive to new ideas and paradigms. It’s the only way for true progress and growth to occur. If you want to have the successful lifestyle you see others have, then copy what they are doing and surround yourself with like-minded people. Learn through osmosis. You will see how and why women are attracted to men and you can become that man.

  29. Question – considering what the the red pill (accurately I believe) tells us about the true nature of women, why have sex with them? Why associate with them in any way at all? If you knew a man who had those reprehensible characteristics wouldn’t you avoid him? And if we don’t avoid a woman just as we would avoid such a man, isn’t the red pill perspective incomplete?

  30. @Bellator

    Denying death and having defense mechanisms against that terror was explained in epic work of non-fiction called “The Denial of Death” by Ernest Becker.

    In the forward of the book, whoever wrote that explained:

    “So long as we stay obediently within the defense mechanisms of our personality, what Wilhelm Reich called “character armor” we feel safe and are able to pretend that the world is manageable. But the price we pay is high. We repress our bodies to purchase a soul that time cannot destroy; we sacrifice pleasure to buy immortality; we encapsulate ourselves to avoid death. And life escapes us while we huddle within the defended fortress of character.”

    And Wikipedia explains:

    The basic premise of The Denial of Death is that human civilization is ultimately an elaborate, symbolic defense mechanism against the knowledge of our mortality, which in turn acts as the emotional and intellectual response to our basic survival mechanism.

    Yeah, death for you is pretty reprehensible, don’t you think? Why do it? Why not just tell yourself and build your mental schema into thinking that you don’t want that and choose not to die, so you build up mental defense mechanisms like religion and immortality and social societies to buffer the terror? You are a human. Why associate with the fact that you are going to die. Why not just avoid it in your mind? (or maybe you just have to read the book or google about it to get the next thought)

    Same for men interacting with females. Your brain, your hormones, you social development and your limbic system was designed by mother nature to interact with the feminine. Denying that is not really living free and harmonious with your spirit. It is self suppressing and denying your true masculine nature in order not to be rejected or burned by the feminine

  31. And while I’m at it, I might goad Scribbler into reading that book by also blockquoting this from that introduction to the Denial of Death, which by the way was a contemporary to Kubler-Ross’s On Death and Dying. Great parallels here to red pill and game:

    “Society provides the second line of defense against our natural impotence by creating a hero system that allows us to believe that we transcend death by participating in something of lasting worth. We achieve ersatz immortality by sacrificing ourselves to conquer an empire, to build a temple, to write a book, to establish a family, to accumulate a fortune, to further progress and prosperity, to create an information-society and global free market. Since the main task of human life is to become heroic and transcend death, every culture must provide its members with an intricate symbolic system that is covertly religious. This means that ideological conflicts between cultures are essentially battles between immortality projects, holy wars.”

  32. “Yawn. Sweet open. Then pablum.
    What else you got and how much are you charging for it?”

    Yup. At least Ivan Throne contributed a bit.

    Where’s your FR’s Will?

  33. @ Bellator

    “Reprehensible characteristics” is a judgment call. There’s nothing reprehensible about women. They simply are what they are.

    When you understand more about how women work, sex with them is more enjoyable, not less. Instead of avoiding sex, you can pursue it and enjoy it more fully and completely.

    Getting any kind of negative emotions over reading this stuff is just a sign of grief — letting go of the old ego-investments in equality between men and women.

    The real nightmares, and every guy here will attest, come from investment in Blue Pill idealism. Not from understanding how women work, but from NOT understanding how women work, and wishing and hoping that they were fundamentally different from how they actually are in reality.

    The magic bullet for me was getting laid. And applying what I’ve learned here to real-life experiences. All these articles depressed the fuck out of me at first, but I can’t even remember why anymore. I feel a lot more confident these days and women’s behavior is incredibly more clear to me. I feel like I’ve gained some proficiency, and even observing other people’s relationships around me, I can see problems coming a mile down the road. And also what the solutions could be.

    Being able to tell how some guy is fucking up in his relationship, and how he’s handling his girlfriend, or why some guy’s approach sucked and didn’t work or freaked the girl out, etc.

    It’s like, holy shit…I actually have something like a clue now about what’s going on here. I’ve still got a long way to go, but I was out in the fucking corn fields before I found this site.

    Hell, the girl I’ve been seeing has a ton of Beta orbiters, and it’s clear as day to me why they don’t have a chance with her, and why she keeps turning them down.

    They get really pissed off because she’s been seeing me, and they think she ‘deserves better’ — i.e., ‘fuck me, I’m a nice guy that will take care of you and I’m more emotional and caring and loving than that asshole you’re fucking every night…instead of me. Did I mention have sex with me? Just want to be clear on that. You should have sex with me. GOD DAMMIT WHY WON’T YOU LIKE ME!!!!!111!1!1 How many favors do I have to do for you!!! fucccckkkk”

    And guess what? Then they think she’s reprehensible. They’re appalled that they would demonstrate all these good qualities to her, while I’m the one getting rewarded, and my life is way more fucked up than theirs are as far as finances and independence and being able to function go.

    The crazy thing is I was that guy in the past. I kept a lot more inside, but I would do shit for girls I liked, get taken advantage of, etc., thinking that I was getting brownie points that would get me closer to getting with them. Beta 101. The idea of doing that now is literally beyond unthinkable to me.

    It took me 13 or something years of not getting laid, and then reading up on RM, to get more up to speed. And really, it took me quite a while after catching up here to really start changing.

    There was a lot of resistance at first. It’s normal. But it does get better. Being unplugged is a much more tolerable and enjoyable reality than being plugged in, even though it doesn’t seem like it at first. It’s just your ego holding on for dear life. When that goes out, you’ll upgrade to the new and improved operating system and things will run a lot more smoothly.

  34. @ scribblerg

    Thanks for the advice and support. Taking all that into consideration. Moved past some ego investments, now onto some deeper seated ones I haven’t tackled yet.

  35. Hey Softek,

    No offense, but I see you write that last comment and I keep thinking that someone took over your avatar after you committed suicide and decided to make you a new person with more Real power. Like someone did a Catfish persona of you. Just to punk us readers.

    You totally made progress and you have the ability to move forward.

    Don’t disappoint us now.

  36. Holy shit, though,Softek. I just realized my statement to move forward doesn’t mean anything other than be better at being a man. It does not mean anything else.Not recommending you ditch her. (And wtf? the spinning plates seems beyond your skill level. But it is a Maxim).

    Not like Camaro’s girl who might do him some harm. You know me. I’m not a fan of ditching the easy pussy, just making it easier. (you know Stoicism. low downside, high upside. Don’t buffer. Low hurdles to in your mind to perceived false high hurdles through mastery).

    Moving forward was not a literal prescription to dump the girl. It’s not easy, but your goal is easy. And that comes from mastery and being natural but also not neglecting congruency. Having it be natural for you.

  37. @SJF

    And wtf? the spinning plates seems beyond your skill level. But it is a Maxim

    Dude, I love you and all. You know this. However, spinning plates is beyond the skill level of me and any dude who shows up here. Seriously. If Softek wants to try spinning them, let him try. I wish I’d tried earlier.

    If anything, TRP is all about stepping way the fuck out of the comfort zone society establishes for you. Spinning plates is far outside of the serial monogamy society tells men is acceptable or even the marriage you yourself are in and have been in for a while. Can you honestly tell me you’ve got enough experience at plate spinning to outdo Softek who’s in his first sexual relationship? Really? And even if you do, can you discount his trying to get it?

    I’d never spun plates (or felt capable of doing so) until I “got” what’s explained here. I still suck at it. It takes practice. You had the fortune of taking a completely different route than he and I did. But telling him it’s beyond his skill level? Really? Dude, seriously that’s shitty advice. Every dude should try spinning plates even if they might fuck up. It’s essential in the modern female-centric environment. It’s the only way a man can truly reclaim power in his relationships.

    If (as Rollo says) nothing is more appealing and intimidating to a woman than a man with options, then a man MUST spin plates to create dread and control in relationship. Period. No exceptions.

  38. @Chump_No_More – yes, on some level I understand that and even know that BUT I do not seem to realize that. There is a big difference between knowing something and realizing it, I find. I cannot seem to internalize Red Pill ideals as I am constantly surrounded by the complete opposite, the only think I focus on is the sharp contrast around me.

    @redlight – I did not mean that the Game leads me to isolating myself. I meant that the Red Pill ideals. As I am perhaps trying to achieve Blue Pill ideals via Red pill ideals, I do not know. I am referring to Rollo’s other posts firstly to save others directing me to them and also because the lessons in those posts tie in with what I am trying to say.

  39. After spending some time here I have come to realize that shit tests are not for filtering alpha. They are meant to help a woman get her pussy up to it for a man she has already determined is alpha in some way. She want to pussywet. What happens is that when you don’t respond accordingly, she is frustrated and walks away cursing. She already knows you are alpha, but she is hurt that you wont play. If you get something that you realize (I hope you do) to be a shit test, what you have to do is decide is if you think it is worth it, and then respond accordingly.

    Now. Women in the west are flushing pussy all over. But they end up flashing it down the drain from frustration! (I think).

    I think some guys will “get it”. Some wont. But before anyone starts to insulting me, think about it.

  40. @ Sun Wukong

    “And wtf? the spinning plates seems beyond your skill level.”

    You know me well enough to know my speaking and writing are sometimes a bit off of perfect. I did say that last night and as I recall what I was attempting to do was goad him into spinning plates. I could be wrong about my motivations. It did come off wrong as I read it now. And it’s shitty advice on my part.

    I do understand and appreciate your check to my callousness. And apologize to Softek. It is a joy to hear of Softeks improvement as a man and I certainly would hope for more successes in advancing his mission and goals.

    If (as Rollo says) nothing is more appealing and intimidating to a woman than a man with options, then a man MUST spin plates to create dread and control in relationship. Period. No exceptions.

    Hah, or maybe its psychological projection on my part. Criticizing what I can’t do myself. Still shitty and no excuse.

    I do take issue with what I hear you Sun, and Scribbler mentioned in the past is that a longtime married man has no other options than “really” spinning plates, rather than “virtually” spinning plates. I do believe that Rollo would endorse the “could but doesn’t” version of soft dread. Not that it matters in what you addressed, but separately in my case.

    Any way. TL;DR ver. from me: “Umm, Sorry?” Softek

  41. Yeah, I forgot to close the blockquote format after the first indented paragraph. Maybe I shouldn’t post so many comments.

  42. My take on Rollo’s livestream on Niko’s channel yesterday.

    – Livestream attendance was surprisingly low. Peak number of viewers looked like 67 to me. For a blog with 500k+ views per month, one would have thought there would be more. Let’s see how the views of the recorded session go. Recommendations: Promote this better here and on Twitter ahead of time.

    – Content: It was an informal discussion, Rollo covered basics of hypergamy and married man game and some other well trodden topics such as idealism. I’m not sure this was as effective as it might be. I think if you guys are going to do this, you should agree to a topic. I also thought the idea was to have disagreement, and see if discussion could resolve that. I think you should pick a topic and actually have a bit of a debate about it. This may not be possible though, given my next point…

    – Niko: Huge eye opener for me. He’s no MGTOW and never was. He games women, spins plates and buys into Game no problem. He also revealed he’s a bit of a natural with women in the way he soft-nexts and sees himself as high value to them (I think part of this may come from being an MD). As is common for a natural he also made several statements about how he didn’t really understand men who had difficulty approaching women etc., in other words, he’s the epitome of a natural. He’s also in his prime SMV years – it may be that naturals (like me) only can really understand the plight of men who aren’t high value or are bad with women once their internals change (as happened to me).

    – The chatting: Interesting chat in the sidebar. Usual arguments about whether women are worth dealing with at all. Some guys recommending total withdrawal from women, others arguing strongly for only using escorts. I don’t think any ground was taken in that regard but it was civil and a good back and forth.

    My view: Not sure what purpose this serves as I didn’t hear much disagreement from Niko on what Rollo has to say. However, I did again hear the watered down definition of MGTOW, that MGTOW means a man can go whatever he wants to with his life. This means MGTOW means nothing. It’s certainly no different from the Red Pill if this is how MGTOW is defined. And of course, most serious MGTOW will tell you that this is not what they believe. While I’m familiar with the “4 levels of MGTOW’, the essence of MGTOW is eschewing social interactions with women due to the suffering it causes men and a purposeful diminishing of the role one’s sex drive has in his life. Without this distinction, MGTOW means nothing. I men, PUAs would qualify as MGTOW under the loose definition.

    Niko, you are still putting my feet to sleep. I have no idea what your actual POV or value add is in the manosphere. You seem to me basically to be repeating Red Pill platitudes for the most part and not even in a compelling way. You do seem like a great guy though and one who would make it into my “gang” of positively masculine men. Also, what I don’t hear from you is any of your own struggle. Your approach seems almost didactic, telling guys what’s what. I come away not knowing much about your Red Pill journey. Not trying to be cruel or inflammatory but when I listen to you, I come away no more informed, inspired or enlightened.

    @Rollo – If you are going to invest time in a once a month chat, why not do so on a channel with a bigger following and with someone who actually disagrees with you? Why not approach say a Stardusk who is actually in disagreement but also a fan? Or even a clown like Sandman? Or SexyMGTOW or RagingGoldenEagle or Goodfella? No doubt, having you live is great, I think you doing so is a huge plus for the Manosphere. I just think the platform is wrong.

  43. @Rollo: I didn’t know there was going to be a chat in “real time”. So I agree entirely with Scribblerg, advertise it better, particularly now that you know how it works after trying it the first time.

    I’ll try to join the chat next time.

    @Scribblerg: I didn’t get much out of this entry, but I think it is probably good to have the 1st entry be entry-level so that beginners that like the different (not written) format also have a entry-level.

    That said I’m hoping next month they cover stuff that I can benefit from.

  44. @IAS – I’m was being gentle. Affiliating with Niko is “off brand” for Rollo. Niko is a lightweight in every sense of the word wrt the manosphere and his ideas and popularity etc. (as much as he seems like a very good man – being a good man has little to do with one’s ability to create compelling content or being engaging or creating a strong platform) Rollo should align with another strong brand which adds value to his and is complementary. As a man who does brands professionally, I have to wonder why Rollo would his brand with Niko’s. Perhaps he has a personal connection with Niko or just likes the guy – the intangibles are always subjective. But if Rollo is trying to actually spur debate and dialog and to reach more men with his ideas, Niko is as close a waste of his time as he could get.

  45. “MGTOW . . . It’s certainly no different from the Red Pill . . .”

    Correct. Red Pill is the foundation of MGTOW, just as it as is the foundation of PUA.

    Red Pill is the theoretical model. MGTOW and PUA are two of the practices under the model.

    Some people find Nihilism to be oppressive and a cause for depression. Some people find it a release and a cause for joy. They’re still all nihilists despite the difference in their reaction and practice. The model is the same.

    The distinction is that under the influence of Red Pill knowledge MGTOW withdraw and PUAs advance. Their reactions are different, but the model is the same.

    A discussion between Rollo and Stardusk might well be interesting, but I don’t think they’d have any fundamental difference of opinion beyond how they approach life based on the model. Stardusk has said that he likes Rollo’s material.

    6oodfella has MGTOW in his keywords, but he has MRA as well. I’ve always thought of him as more of an anti-feminist, father’s rights advocate.

  46. Just wanted to give you guys an update from my post a week or two ago about my wife wanting marriage counseling after a big fight. I told her that I simply didn’t want to go, and that I didn’t think that we would actually get divorced. I basically remained calm throughout our discussion of the matter and maintained a frame of “of course this isn’t going to happen” and most of all, I was able to let go of my butthurt. I haven’t been angry with her at all since then and things haven’t been too bad. No fights at all. I know that I’m not where I want to be. I’m still in a beta frame, and not getting enough sex but I followed SJF’s advice to stop calling her names and yelling at her and I can tell she’s certainly less miserable, and I am happier too.

  47. @ Sun

    @ SJF

    Spinning plates is beyond my current skill level. I also feel like an LTR is beyond my current skill level. But I do get the point of having to push beyond my comfort zone. I’m also in over my head with some clients; the jobs are beyond my current skill level. I can see how it’s sink or swim.

    I’ve been in limbo, maintaining this relationship with this girl without committing to her, and very tentatively Gaming another girl or two. I haven’t been going hard at all, though, certainly not to the point of getting laid with any other girls.

    Much less taking it far enough to feel like I have options. With me not being used to female attention, much less being catered to and treated with respect and sexual desire, it’s impossible at the moment for me to imagine having this in abundance with multiple women.

    The ‘fear of catastrophic loss,’ as Rollo put it in his BPD post — whether the girl has BPD or not — is definitely ‘very real and ever-present.’

    Also, the guilt/shame and feeling of not deserving to have attention from more than one woman is very real.

    I actually had a horrible nightmare last night that the girl I’m seeing found out that I’m here on RM. That she found a post I made here about wanting to Game other girls, etc., and then got really pissed off, broke things off with me, and then told all her friends, everyone else I know, including another girl I’ve had going in the background, and then they all hated me and everything was completely fucked up.

    At one point I was standing in a circle of people I know as she was on her phone showing them everything I wrote, and it was like I was the worst person in the world and everyone I knew thought I was a scumbag. It ended with me feeling horrible and leaving without saying anything while everyone around me was shaming me.

    The social pressure to just commit and go for serial monogamy is tremendous. That’s what I got out of that nightmare. It was horrible.

    Sun’s dead on the money that spinning plates is WAY outside of what’s normal in modern, serial monogamy society.

    The options are, basically, go the path of serial monogamy, and be prepared to lose some ground when committing — be prepared to use Dread more heavily, because things won’t be the same as they were when there was no commitment.

    Or be prepared to cheat, and deal with the repercussions of that, whatever those are.

    Or stay single and risk losing her, while being unsure about how and when I could find another girl.

    Or stay single and do my best to keep her, and deal with the drama and constant pushing for commitment, and the constant anxiety about whether it could end or not — while working on *trying* to spin other plates, and hopefully if that goes well, the anxiety will lessen when I realize that I have other options and I don’t to feel this ‘ever-present fear of catastrophic loss.’

    I’m thinking that last option is the best, and that’s what I’ve been doing, but the guilt is very real, maybe a result of Blue Pill / FI conditioning, that makes me feel like I’m an asshole for not committing to her.

    And trust me, it’s very tempting to just commit, thinking that “Well, the sex has been great, we get along pretty well, and I’m used to her and she’s used to me, so why not lock it down?”

    I know better. The hardest part of all of this is realizing how true this is:

    “You’ll never be satisfied living in a Blue Pill context with Red Pill awareness.” Or whatever the quote is, lol.

    One thing that helps me get rid of the guilt is realizing that SHE HERSELF is spinning plates. This is natural for women. She has a ton of Beta orbiters. Guys that will go over her house regularly and do things for her or just hang out with her.

    She claims that she has no interest in them at all. And yet she lets them do favors for her and also hangs out with them.

    That’s a form of plate spinning, even if she isn’t fucking any of them. The point is that she COULD be fucking any of them. If things didn’t work out with me, she’d have any number of guys throwing themselves at her.

    But if I just focus on her, and don’t spin plates (doesn’t necessarily mean I’m having sex with any of the other girls on the side that I build up some rapport with), where will I be if things end up not working out, or she decides she can’t do the non-commitment thing anymore?

    So what I’ve been doing is plate spinning to a very small extent. Maybe it WOULD help to have sex with another girl. But for the time being, it does help a little to think that I COULD do that, even if I’m not at the moment. Sexual escalating to the point of feeling some sexual tension, and that something COULD happen, does make a difference, and makes me feel a lot less hopeless. Even though it’s not actualizing. Having the feeling that it *could* does make me feel like I have some options. At least more than none.

    Anyway, as far as guilt goes…she’s letting guys come over her house and do favors for her that she KNOWS EXPLICITLY are sexually interested in her. She claims that she has no desire for them at all, and probably doesn’t, but that doesn’t mean that as she gets farther into the Transition phase, she won’t consider them as options.

    She’s asked me more than once if I’m OK with that. Like her hanging out with other guys, or what I think of that. Not sure exactly what the shit test there is. One time I said it kind of bothered me, and she reacted by getting all happy and saying that means I care about her, etc. and she was glad I said that. Not sure what to make of that.

    And onward we go. The “second unplugging” is very real. Paying attention and doing my best though, and being more cautious than anything else. Giving myself time to think things through.

  48. “She’s asked me more than once if I’m OK with that. Like her hanging out with other guys, or what I think of that. Not sure exactly what the shit test there is. One time I said it kind of bothered me, and she reacted by getting all happy and saying that means I care about her, etc. and she was glad I said that. Not sure what to make of that.”

    Not exactly a shit test. She’s testing your level of commitment/care to her.

    A girl wants to be possessed by a high-value man. Right now she’s anxious cause she’s not getting that. She’s wondering if she can’t get you and needs to try for a plan B.

    If you were to react by getting pissed, look her dead in the eye, grab her and say “They can’t have you. You’re mine.” She would absolutely melt. You’re not ever gonna make a girl much happier than that. Not advising it naturally lol that implies committing to her. Just an example of what she’s looking for.

    As an aside, you can use this to great effect in a sexual context. When she’s in a lather just grab part of her – maybe her hips – and pull it into you and say MINE and see how she reacts. In my experience, by submitting utterly. You objectify and possess while paradoxically implying a strong connection to her, it’s powerful stuff.

    Anyways, just recognize that a girl wants to feel like you’re committed to her if she’s gonna stay around long term. You can demand her exclusivity while still fucking other girls and at a subconscious (but probably not conscious) level she’ll be okay with it if she’s still ‘yours’ in some special sense. Usually it means that you provide for her and never show a sign of providing for another girl. And those other girls will be really on-and-off in this arrangement – they call you when they aren’t trying to rope some other guy and when they need a really hot fuck, which isn’t terribly common so you’d best have a bunch in rotation if you want that sort of side action to be a regular thing.

    And with the girl you’re seeing now, eventually the relationship would migrate to that – occasional hot ‘ex sex’ when the stars align – if you don’t show some signs of provisioning.

    Reading Xsplat’s stuff or YaReally’s stuff on PLTR’s would probably help you understand the dynamics better.

    But let’s not get too sidetracked – this is all theory for general practice, the first thing you need to do is determine if this girl is cluster B or otherwise toxic for you. And some guys I really trust here feel that she is based on your descriptions. If so, your priority is to GET OUT.

  49. Ok i have an update to my prior predicament. Instead of me having to move out i was able to “convince” her that her moving out was the best chance she had for us to remain together in the long term. My true motive was to just get her out as fast as possible and then implement no contact, as far as she’s concerned this is her best chance at keeping our marriage. I know this is manipulation but honestly i feel that the rules of engagement do not apply here as the history of abuse and her unstable natures dictate extreme measures. It was very difficult to convince her that she wanted to move out, she changed her mind multiple times and i think on a subconscious level she knew this was a rouse. I had to maintain i very strong unflinching level of frame as she was extremely observant of my behaviors. So yesterday she left, i helped move all her things into a storage unit and now i have my house to myself. At this point i am going to focus only on my self. For now it is best that i stay away from females and what i mean by that is not actively seeking them out, but instead continue to build my already good credit up and finish my degree. The blue pill fear still lingers..there tugging at my pyschy..It tells me your a loser, your not going to get another girl like that, you fucked up…All bs i refuse to allocate energy or power to those inferior emotions. I simply recognize them as they are and then file them away to nothing. I now begin my cynical asshole journey of self discovery…Thank you all!

  50. @Dutchman I don’t know your situation, but I feel for you. For a man, name calling (out of anger) cannot improve the outcome. When I am in a solid frame and my wife gets over-emotional, angry with me or a kid, I sometimes tell her to keep quiet until she is ready to act like an adult (or something similar), and that tends to work well (though her initial reaction isn’t always positive). The arguments, mostly in the past now thankfully, that led to more problems for me down the road were the ones in which I also let my emotions get the best of me and manifested them to her somehow. While still recovering from blue pill indoctrination It is very hard to “man up” when you feel hurt/angry/let down, etc., but to the degree I succeed in doing so, especially when I can keep myself upbeat (though not necessarily engaged with her during her spell) it always (100%) pays off with her respecting me more. Just fight your habitual tendency to get emotional…this is not masculine, but feminine (or immaturity). You will master her when you can master yourself.

    Good luck!!

  51. @Camarowoes Don’t even feel guilty or even feel the need to justify your actions rsp to your deception in this situation. Protect yourself first and then choose to support those who deserve your energy. Good move!

  52. @camarowoes: sweet play. checkmate doesnt equal manipulation; in this case it was survival. When you maintain no contact it will be over. If.you just keep reading here it will sink in even more over time.

    I know I’m subject to criticism from others. I step oitside myself.and see.it.from others perspective. Still doesnt stop me from following the number one rule of biology: survival. I refuse to criticize myself in a way that will demoralize myself. This from a guyy who has suffered through an abusive childhood and has had a large share of adult suffering as well.
    I come.here and get to see guys further down the road-for me scrib is really helpful as I relate to his experiences and upbringing. I hope you do something similiar and continue to grow as a man.
    Best of luck camaro

  53. @Camaro: I know this is manipulation but . . .”

    . . . you appear to be very good at it. Good man.

    Now batten down the hatches and take care of yourself.

  54. @Softek

    Spinning plates is beyond my current skill level. I also feel like an LTR is beyond my current skill level.

    With the dynamics at play between plate spinning and LTR, work on spinning plates first. Don’t bother with an LTR till you’ve got that down. Without the ability to spin plates, you’ll get into an LTR with a scarcity mentality and wind up… well, exactly where you are right now, ya know?

    They’re both difficult, but having a decent LTR requires a bunch of time spinning plates both for purposes of searching through women and building the mentality required to make it work.

  55. @Sentient

    “On your FR – why oh why oh why won’t you try and pull her”

    he still has ‘good girl/bad girl’ = NAWALT lenses on…lol…that’s why he could escalate fast on those ‘sugar babys’…bc they were bad girls…lol…

    and the non-nesting format really isn’t THAT bad…lol…search my name on this post and i explained to Culum why i’m here…and then there was an admin crisis…lol…and trying to comment ‘across pages’ is tricky…(just had that happen…lol)

    i’m actually surprized at what kind of epiphany level insights i’m having on this shit…lol…real ground breaking stuff…and not just PUA either = real life blue pill/red pill FI insights…when i get a solid handle on it, i’ll right it up if i get time…lol…

    @Culum

    given your FR…MY prediction is that she’s going to want to meet again soon, but you are going to get push back on coming straight to your apartment…bc you pinged her beta provider circuits…or more accurately, you tickled her alpha stud circuit hard while in that beta provider frame…lol…that’s where all that beta baiting was coming from…lol…

    i think Rollo has a post around about women wanting an ‘alpha’ they can control = purple pill = YOUR interaction on the FR…lol

    @Dutchman – jan 24 at 9:17am

    great job on avoiding that shit test…lol…and improving your situ…and getting some frame back.

    try this…the next time she does something even close to something you like…compliment her for that thing…now, here’s the weird part…she’ll probably try to shit on it (the compliment)… how she does this/what she says is part of her Rolodex (and it might pay for you to start keeping a log of these…and i’m not kidding…lol)…

    there are a bunch of reasons she’ll try, just be ready for it…the best way to approach it is to think like it’s a frame battle (bc that’s kind of what it is…lol). she’s going to be trying to get back to HER comfort zone (where you DON”T compliment her…) and so will shit test you by ‘trying’ to minimize it…or pick a fight, etc.

    DON”T react…LET her blow it off/shit on it (just expect NO return appreciation…this IS part of the FI after all…lol)…when she’s ‘done’ (and you might have to repeat the next step)…you calmly say ‘i appreciate it.’ (nothing else…NO explanation/arguing/etc…) then [back turn] her…(for her BAD behavior of arguing/not accepting your compliment). i’m not kidding, just remove your attention (leave the house for a while if you have to…DON”T run…lol…it WILL seem ‘rude’)…you do this to let her hamster reset…

    the idea is that you are reframing yourself into ‘alpha’.

    in society who gives compliments? someone equal or higher on the social dominance scale…(AMOG works on this process too btw…that’s why she shits on it…) by remaining non-reactive AFTER the compliment, you show that you didn’t retract/explain/excuse/etc your STATUS wrt GIVING that compliment AND you didn’t let her reject it either…that’s why you get it the last word…lol…

    expect a shit test of some type/kind when you get back (whether from the next room or being gone…)…handle it…then give her an easy compliance test…

    observe the results, adjust, rinse and repeat…

    good luck!

  56. @Dutchman January 24th, 2016 at 9:17 am

    Good advice by Having a bad day. I don’t quite understand it (might be due to the sentence and paragraph structure) but it sounds legit and practical.

    Some larger issues. I sense you would rather keep the marriage than blow it up and start again. Once again, I think the benefit the the children is a big one.

    I still subscribe to red pill and married man game here, but some benefit can be gained by the purple pill, when there are currently some critical defects in the marriage. I would once again recommend Athol Kay’s “Mindful Attraction plan” (It is not all purple-pill like his other stuff). As a starting point, not an ending point. There is no completion goal here, just keep working. For $4.99 Kindle and a couple hours of reading, it won’t kill you. His Red, Yellow and Green framework on things to work on is helpful to keep as a frame of reference to start some of the work you need to do. Half of what you need to do is improve your mindset and tactics. This guide helps improve positive things, work on intermediate things, and avoid the bad things (which suck out both of yous’ positive energies).

    And read this (but keep a red pill lens and don’t lean in too much or compromise your self and your goals. Purple pill is leaning in too much to the women when you don’t have top hand).

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/10/kill-relationships/

    “69% of a couple’s problems are perpetual. These problems don’t go away yet many couples keep arguing about them year after year:

    Most marital arguments cannot be resolved. Couples spend year after year trying to change each other’s mind – but it can’t be done. This is because most of their disagreements are rooted in fundamental differences of lifestyle, personality, or values. By fighting over these differences, all they succeed in doing is wasting their time and harming their marriage.

    How do good marriages deal with issues that can’t be resolved? They accept one another as-is:

    These couples intuitively understand that problems are inevitably part of a relationship, much the way chronic physical ailments are inevitable as you get older. They are like a trick knee, a bad back, an irritable bowel, or tennis elbow. We may not love these problems, but we are able to cope with them, to avoid situations that worsen them, and to develop strategies and routines that help us deal with them. Psychologist Dan Wile said it best in his book After the Honeymoon: “When choosing a long-term partner… you will inevitably be choosing a particular set of unsolvable problems that you’ll be grappling with for the next ten, twenty or fifty years.”

    And what you can do practically and what you have in your control is to avoid The Four Horsemen of a doomed marriage.

    The Four Horsemen

    How can he tell who will split up? There are a number of indicators but at the core of Gottman’s research are ” The Four Horsemen.” These are the four things that indicate a marriage apocalypse is on its way:

    Criticism – Complaints are fine. Criticism is more global — it attacks the person, not their behavior. They didn’t take out the garbage because they forgot, but because they’re a bad person.

    Contempt – “…name-calling, eye-rolling, sneering, mockery, and hostile humor. In whatever form, contempt – the worst of the four horsemen – is poisonous to a relationship because it conveys disgust. It’s virtually impossible to resolve a problem when your partner is getting the message that you’re disgusted with him or her.”

    Defensiveness – “…defensiveness is really a way of blaming your partner. You’re saying, in effect, ‘The problem isn’t me, it’s you.’ Defensiveness just escalates the conflict, which is why it’s so deadly.”

    Stonewalling – Tuning out. Disengaging. This doesn’t just remove the person from the conflict, it ends up removing them, emotionally, from the relationship.

    Work on not doing “Red Light” things as Athol Kay describes. Don’t do the Four Horsemen things. You do have some control over these things on your part and you can recognize and defuse when your wife does these. When she is showing or demonstrating contempt, you can defuse that just like when defusing a shit test.

    And Stonewalling is not the same as Law #16. You can still employ Law #16.

    Law 16 Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor

    Too much circulation makes the price go down: The more you are seen and heard from, the more common you appear. If you are already established in a group, temporary withdrawal from it will make you more talked about, even more admired. You must learn when to leave. Create
    value through scarcity.

    Sure some of that article in the link I provided does sound like typical marriage advice. It is only a start to recognize some of the things you want to avoid. Even if the marriage doesn’t work, that doesn’t mean you can’t become better yourself at engaging now or in the future. Don’t wish it were easier, become better for you own sake.

    And, changing the subject, start that journey of getting other guy friends to hang out with. And engage in with other guys in social situations, don’t just flirt with the women (or be best friends with the girls because it is easier than engaging with the men). Reread Rollo’s The Art of AMOG and suck up to some of the AMOG men your wife knows (you know, the one’s she would rather fuck).

  57. @HABD

    “try this…the next time she does something even close to something you like…compliment her for that thing…now, here’s the weird part…she’ll probably try to shit on it (the compliment)… how she does this/what she says is part of her Rolodex (and it might pay for you to start keeping a log of these…and i’m not kidding…lol)…

    there are a bunch of reasons she’ll try, just be ready for it…the best way to approach it is to think like it’s a frame battle (bc that’s kind of what it is…lol). she’s going to be trying to get back to HER comfort zone (where you DON”T compliment her…) and so will shit test you by ‘trying’ to minimize it…or pick a fight, etc.

    DON”T react…LET her blow it off/shit on it (just expect NO return appreciation…this IS part of the FI after all…lol)…when she’s ‘done’ (and you might have to repeat the next step)…you calmly say ‘i appreciate it.’ (nothing else…NO explanation/arguing/etc…) then [back turn] her…(for her BAD behavior of arguing/not accepting your compliment). i’m not kidding, just remove your attention (leave the house for a while if you have to…DON”T run…lol…it WILL seem ‘rude’)…you do this to let her hamster reset…”

    I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often. I’m trying to seem more aloof, non-plused lately. She typically doesn’t react to my compliments lol.

    @SJF

    “Some larger issues. I sense you would rather keep the marriage than blow it up and start again. Once again, I think the benefit the the children is a big one.”

    For sure. I want to see my kids every day, and I want to give them whatever benefit I can.

    “I still subscribe to red pill and married man game here, but some benefit can be gained by the purple pill, when there are currently some critical defects in the marriage. I would once again recommend Athol Kay’s “Mindful Attraction plan” (It is not all purple-pill like his other stuff). ”

    I’ve been reading Athol’s stuff on his website. I’m actually trying to avoid buying the book if I can (because we share an amazon account and you don’t talk about fight club). Is the book just a compendium of the articles on the site?

    I agree about the Purple Pill stuff. I’m not so much reading Athol to get theory and STRATEGIC understanding of what’s really going on, but to get prescriptive advice for “if she does this, do this” and TACTICS.

    “The Four Horsemen

    Criticism – Complaints are fine. Criticism is more global — it attacks the person, not their behavior. They didn’t take out the garbage because they forgot, but because they’re a bad person.”

    I think we’re pretty good on this front. We both COMPLAIN but there isn’t really any “You’re a horrible husband/wife!!!” shit.

    “Contempt – “…name-calling, eye-rolling, sneering, mockery, and hostile humor. In whatever form, contempt – the worst of the four horsemen – is poisonous to a relationship because it conveys disgust. It’s virtually impossible to resolve a problem when your partner is getting the message that you’re disgusted with him or her.” ”

    I was doing this to her for a while, she’s never done it to me. I was mainly doing it because I was butthurt and also because I thought it would help me establish a more dominant frame. Not doing it anymore lol.

    “Defensiveness – “…defensiveness is really a way of blaming your partner. You’re saying, in effect, ‘The problem isn’t me, it’s you.’ Defensiveness just escalates the conflict, which is why it’s so deadly.” ”

    I was pretty defensive for a while, getting better with that.

    “Stonewalling – Tuning out. Disengaging. This doesn’t just remove the person from the conflict, it ends up removing them, emotionally, from the relationship.”

    Hmm, this one I’m not too sure about. We both spend a lot of time in our heads/disengaged from the WORLD. I’m not sure if we’re disengaging from each other, or just being ourselves. We’re both pretty introverted though (me more than her).

    “And, changing the subject, start that journey of getting other guy friends to hang out with. And engage in with other guys in social situations, don’t just flirt with the women (or be best friends with the girls because it is easier than engaging with the men). Reread Rollo’s The Art of AMOG and suck up to some of the AMOG men your wife knows (you know, the one’s she would rather fuck).”

    Yeah, I know I need to work on this. A big problem is that we are almost never in social situations. I basically go to work and come home, and she leaves the house to go to the store or drop the kids off at school. That’s about it right now.

    I’m actually pretty good at AMOGing other dudes, I just feel like I come across as a dick and that they hate me for it lol. I haven’t figured out how to AMOG them and then build them up/be their buddy like YaReally talks about.

  58. @ Dutchman

    You don’t want to AMOG other dudes. You want to be guy friends with high quality men and be able to suck up to and be friends with douche-bag AMOGs. Otherwise your will be just a dick and get others to hate you–not what you want.

    Did you even read this?:

    http://therationalmale.com/2015/02/02/the-art-of-amog/

    “Women love a man who Just Gets It, and the best, playful way of expressing that is with Amused Mastery; but it’s even more sexy when that Mastery extends to men who she perceives are your intersexual rivals. This then, by association, compliments her ego for your Amused Mastery of her.”

    You guys not socializing is a big detriment for your relationship. Admittedly it is asking a lot to get out and socialize. But it is a big part of not being isolated. Isolation is dangerous and promotes lack of perspective for your wife and how she relates to you. (Law #18)

    I can imagine you get shit tested a lot. From the Joseph W. South book Practical Female Psychology:

    Since testing is so closely related to the mechanisms controlling
    sexual attraction, it is important to remember that testing never ends. Maintaining an appropriate level of attraction within the relationship is important. Some of the ways in which the authors of this book maintain attraction with our mates are:

    • Regular, social interaction with men who are attractive to women. Uncalibrated and unattractive men induce the risk of socially awkward situations and won’t help you to mature into a more attractive man.

    • Clear demonstration of physical leadership in our daily lives. We are each living our lives in a manner congruent with our beliefs, with gusto and without apology.

    • Regular, social interaction with other attractive females. Women are social creatures, and will derive emotional satisfaction from being with a man capable of being with a variety of women.

    Normal, social interactions with attractive women are critical for several reasons. Within the hothouse of a relationship, interactions between men and women can assume bizarre and ultimately unhealthy forms without socially calibrating experiences with normal, healthy women outside the relationship. Direct, personal feedback from women allows us to calibrate our behavior within the relationship. When we are passing tests thrown by women outside the relationship, we have a baseline for our own behavior inside the relationship. For those of you who enjoy jealous women (we do not), this could inspire a certain amount of jealously, which also increases attraction, so calibrate accordingly.

    Men, note well: encourage your woman to maintain normal, regular social interaction with males of her acquaintance. If you are the man of her dreams, her Prince, you have nothing to fear.

    Athols blog is a purple pill mess. And it will mess with your head–it is too positive. A lot of the good stuff and articles were written a long time ago before he was trying to appeal to women and get more subscribers. The Mindful Attraction plan is stripped down and not any repetition from his articles. There is absolutely no reason why you can’t get a version and let your wife have access to it. I doubt she would want to (after all she already is inventing ways to ditch you and doesn’t want to improve your marriage because that would spoil her plans) (And A. Kay wrote it in a fashion that there is no harm from a spouse reading it). I don’t believe there are any torrent versions of it. I actually read it on Kindle Unlimited a while ago and don’t subscribe to it anymore, so I don’t have an electronic copy. It really helped me a lot. But is just a beginning and it doesn’t have easy answers to your solution. It just provides a framework on how to work on the problem. $4.99 and your wife seeing you bought it is worth it. Your children will appreciate it down the road when you interact better with your wife.

    Book Description
    Publication Date: July 4, 2013
    The Mindful Attraction Plan is a seven-phase process to change you for the better, in order to leverage your critical issue to resolve the way you want it to.

    “This is the pure, original meaning of the Law of Attraction, far away from fad books like “The Secret”. The Mindful Attraction Plan is a very neat packaging of wisdom from a number of different sources, and that’s exactly what makes it stand out. It’s simple, easy-to-use and more importantly, it just plain works. ” -Brian C Rideout “The Wild Man Project”

    Most threats of ending relationships in hope of change, fail because of extremely poor timing. The MAP covers the pacing of the escalation toward the Resolution Point. Most serious attempts to change things happen in the heat of the moment, which is typically a negative emotion blowout and ineffective. The MAP keeps things calm and steady in the hope that your partner starts acting like a reasonable person and the relationship can start turning positive.

    The first part of the book is a very clear description of exactly how you become more attractive as fast as possible. Covering six areas of development you need to focus on:

    (1) Physical Fitness and Health
    (2) Money and Material Possessions
    (3) Displays of High Value
    (4) Building Relationship Comfort
    (5) Personality and Preferences
    (6) High-Energy Sex

    Within each area there’s a traffic light color coded system for things you need to do.

    Red = Draining Energy = Stop It
    Yellow = Stagnant Energy = Fix It
    Green = Flowing Energy = Do It.

    There’s no confusion about what you should be doing to improve your attractiveness and I even cover the exact order of importance your addressing things needs to follow. The (1) to (6) order is very important for example.

    The second part of the book covers the seven phase approach to taking your new attraction and leveraging that into getting what you want from your relationships.

    And by the way, you are pretty defensive here in your comments on TRM (not saying there is anything wrong with that, keep it in mind).

  59. (note – i debated on posting this bc i generally don’t engage ‘trolly’ types (that’s why it’s late) but i spent the time getting my thoughts sorted and thought somebody else might get some benefit out of it…)

    @Not Born This Morning

    Welcome!…

    you know, i just started commenting here a little while ago, so i don’t know how long you’ve been here, but i just wanted to welcome you anyway…you seem to be having a bad day…and i know how that is…lol

    “Here is my advice…”

    1. Don’t get fat.

    2. If you are at all fat, get unfat.

    3. Get some strenuous exercise at least once a week.

    4. Stay active. The older you get, the more difference it makes.

    5. Drink a gallon of water a day.

    6. Eat lots of vegetables and plenty of protein.

    7. Jack off or fuck regularly but not compulsively.

    8. Get 7 hours of sleep a night.

    9. Laugh at yourself at least as much as you laugh at others.

    10. Know it is easy to avoid worry as long as you remember that the world may as well go fuck itself.”

    this is actually great advice…it’s what i tell everybody, too…except that i usually push ‘a couple times a week’ on number 3…and add in ‘approach/open a couple of random girls every week’ to number 7…lol…

    the hardest thing to deal with, though, is number 10…bc most guys can’t ever seem to get this one right…bc they always care too much…usually about what other people think…that’s the nice thing about this site…it helps you try to understand ‘why’ (usually some form of FI indoctrination…or push-back against the FI…lol…it’s hard to get the right balance, for sure…) and, more importantly, how to work to change that situ…

    “I know you didn’t ask for it, so don’t tell me, I don’t give a shit.”

    sure, you do (like i stated, number 10 is hard to get right…)… that’s why you’re commenting HERE…instead of some other place…and this is actually (especially) even true if you think you are trolling…

    do you really think that you are going to change anybody’s mind about anything?…especially Rollo’s?…i mean REALLY?…lol…of course not…(that man wrote the book…lol)…you’re just trying to reaffirm your ‘outgroup’ status v. this group… which is more or less based in reality (at least that’s the goal = red pill acceptance…)

    that feeling that you have (and that brought you here) is called ‘cognitive dissonance’ and it’s telling you there is something about your view of the world that doesn’t line up with your reality…that’s ok, and i think i know what it is…

    “Enter Rollo Tomassi. The messiah of sexual gender dynamics is born unto us! Behold the revelation of ubiquitous enlightenment for all men. All can now rejoice where only few could before! The dots have been connected! Eureka! Blue pill idealism can now be realized within an alpha frame. The correct context has been discovered. The sexual holy grail is recovered. Man is at last allowed to be an idiot!”

    this is just basically you trying to resolve that dissonance…

    btwn hard-ass red pill ideology and some of the ideas that Rollo has put forth, there does seem to be a disconnect. i mean having a wife/kids/job that supports them…i mean WTF!…ammirite?… everybody knows that’s blue pill…and only suckers/slaves do that…

    and that’s a valid observation, bc on the surface (looking in from outside the value set) is does really seem to be advocating a blue pill simulacrum, where Rollo is trying to shoe-horn red-pillish ideas into blue pill ideology (or the reverse…)

    but i think it goes to mental point of origin ideas in that the value set that is ‘informing’ that ‘action’ (whatever that is) comes from a legit red-pill value as opposed to blue pill value, with the corresponding meaning inhered within that action – even though the actual action looks the same to an outside observer (or at least one that isn’t able to see the subtle differences)…the consequences that result from that action will be different, based on the inhered value…

    the thing is, your lack of understanding (or mine for that matter) doesn’t change whatever the reality that we live in actually IS…

    so far, everything that i’ve read (and understood properly) of Rollo’s has proven to be accurate wrt that reality – i know this bc it works when i see it/try it in the real world = i can make predictions and then those predictions happen…

    so, if something he’s written doesn’t make sense to me or isn’t working for me, i’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and try to figure it out…bc my experience is that it will work once i do figure it out and/or apply it properly…then, once i understand, i can make a conscious choice regarding that idea’s place in my world…and that’s the true red pill teaching right there…

    as an aside, this is exactly the same reason i respect YaReally and his advice (and why i am willing to believe that i’m the one that’s doing something wrong, if something’s not working for me). it’s bc the advice in the past has worked when i try it in-field…and if it didn’t work right away, it has ALWAYS been bc it was a failure on my end…but regardless, that trust is still hard to give BC that stuff is ALWAYS outside my comfort zone (well, not any more, really…lol…but you get my point…) and using a buffer to ‘not take action’ is much easier…

    so that’s likely true for you too wrt to Rollo’s advice…it was for me before i had some success with the advice…

    your hostility tells me that you also see the merit in Rollo’s observations…that’s where that cognitive dissonance comes from (and why your hamster brought you HERE, instead of some MGTOW site…where you could complain about how Rollo’s ideas are really stupid)…but to even consider his ideas requires you to push outside your comfort zone… and, if you’re red pill, it probably seems that the risk to you is that you will convert back into a blue piller/beta (it’s not…you can’t un-ring that bell…and there’s no way back into the matrix)…or give you some false hope that a blue pill world is real (it’s not…)

    so, rather than try to pretend that you are above actually living in your life, try this…pick one post here at random – say… best of year one at the top of the site – pick a number btwn 1-9…go read that post, digest it over the next couple days…then try to apply it to your life and see if it works…rinse and repeat…

    that’s the ONLY way you are going to be able to scratch that itch…

    good luck!

  60. @Dutchman

    “I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often.”

    why do you say that?…seriously…

    do you do it bc you want to make her feel good or try to ‘manipulate’ her or bc she might get mad if you don’t (ie suck up = her frame)… OR bc YOU actually appreciate what she did? compliment her bc of that last reason as much as you want…as long as it’s YOUR frame, it’s fine…and bc of the social dynamic in play, she’ll do what she has to to get you to stop…lol…(i know, it doesn’t make sense…lol…) it’s a frame battle…

    ” I’m trying to seem more aloof, non-plused lately.”

    non-reactive is good/dominant…see the following…lol

    ” She typically doesn’t react to my compliments lol.”

    this is a shit test…and she wins if she can control your behavior = get you to STOP giving her (authentic) compliments = stop being dominant…lol…

    bc she is not reacting, you are not getting a reward/positive reinforcement from YOUR behavior, so the behavior is likely to extinguish…basic operant conditioning…lol…but IF your compliments come from YOUR frame (as opposed to being conditioned responses), that won’t matter (alpha). see how that’s the test?…

    this stuff is really subtle…and it works just like a wedge/incline does = small incremental force over time to make big changes in position…

    have you ever just ‘back turned’ her (remove your attention) when she does something you don’t like? it will seem very rude…and you WILL get a shit test (pushback)…that’s bc it’s effective…lol…

    good luck!

  61. @having a bad day

    Hey, I think you said you were married… Just wanted to bounce some things off of ya.

    Do you have an open relationship type of thing or monogamous? Reason I say that is because you know objectively marriage is great, but I have that “I’m going to break your heart.” feeling. The catch is that I’ve got young kids. Obviously I’m going to wait till they’re older, but I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day. I’m going to try and go the pLTR or open route first. Wondering if you’ve succeeded in doing that.

  62. @sjf @dutchman

    “Athols blog is a purple pill mess. And it will mess with your head–it is too positive. A lot of the good stuff and articles were written a long time ago before he was trying to appeal to women and get more subscribers.”

    Yup… he went downhill after he started paid coaching and female moderation of the forum. I’d avoid the Mindful Attraction Plan and only read the 2011 Primer. Still a great pithy intro to female attraction, shit tests and evo psych/bio. Just get a separate account.

    The forum had some great posters… fredless, davebowman, picard, sf64, neaderthal2000, mook_z but the trouble with the whole MMSL site is 50% of the guys will go half way in, 30% will go 80% in, 10% will go 90% in and only 10% will go 100% in. That last 10% are either happy now or single (or both!). If you won’t swallow the red pill all the way down, you will always end up getting bit in the ass… You can never take just a little bit.

  63. @andy “I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day”

    You will only break her heart if you are low value or the women you choose are lower value than her. Otherwise she might not be happy with your choices, but if she still has the title – and the respect – as a high value man’s wife, inside she will be happy despite herself…

    what you have to do is not rub her face in it, and not set up situations where female social pressure requires her to do something to preserve her female in-group status, i.e. her friends, sisters, etc shouldn’t know.

  64. @ Sentient

    “I’d avoid the Mindful Attraction Plan and only read the 2011 Primer.”

    Care to elaborate on why? MAP is a stripped down version of the Primer without the geeky Star Trek shit.

    And @All and @married guys that abdicated frame because no-told them this shit: Keep in mind that early Athol Kay stuff was a distillation of red pill awareness and married man game–distilled from exhaustive research (probably from over a decade and thousands of articles) from various sources so he could get in his wife’s pants (and it worked fine to that end). So the Primer and MAP do have some value in his distillation of ideas. And I do endorse the Primer and/or if it is called MMSL. The early stuff can do you not much harm in your learning curve.

    “Yup… he went downhill after he started paid coaching and female moderation of the forum.” Sentient and Rollo are 100% correct on this. Red pill trumps purple pill. Purple pill has a wider audience (females) and sells better.

    1. Re: Mindful Action Plan

      I had already read Rollo’s books and spent a hundred plus hours reading his (50% of my reading then, 75% now) and other Red Pill author’s blog posts before getting the MAP book. I found some of the basic framework and guidelines very useful, but scant novel useful information beyond what a cursory read provides. I only read it once and here is the main points that still stick out:

      1. The overall MAP can be used as a plan to either obtain her submission or prepare yourself to live a better life without her. This was very helpful given the state I was still in when I read this.

      2. The Red/Yellow/Green advise was good for focusing on what you need to (I found it moderately useful as you don’t need to fix everything, at least at once)

      3. The advice on how to interact depending on what degree of “hand” (or dominance level you are at) was helpful.

      4. The discussion about knowing your state can affect your reasoning (oneitis for example) was good reinforcement.

      I suggest reading it once at some point, but make sure that point is after you have a good grasp (at least mentally) of what red pill is. He definitely is purple pill and believes women can run the MAP in a very similar way men can, which I found simply ignorant (though perhaps intentionally so for marketing appeal).

      My $.02

        1. @ Rollo Re: Kay Athol’s mission vs. yours

          Agreed. As someone above already said, it is available free/cheap via Kindle Unlimited. Re $20/ month (Cough!) I love the free market.

          And this highlights what a contribution you are making to Mankind!

  65. “why get a stripped down purple version?”

    Because it strips out the geek. I actually read it for free (Kindle Unlimited) and I figure it saved me about $500K and a lot of time (an old man’s most valuable asset) and grief.

    I actually read it, did you? Dutch needs all the help he can get. (Heh, it’s for the children, you know).

    Or did you just judge the book by its cover? Athol Kay is intellectually incapable of coming up with a decent title to his books, a true Geek at it (try parading around the house with a physical copy of Married Man Sex Life) or a decent cover (is that a Yin/Yang symbol with a disguised question mark shedding tears?).

  66. @KFG – I have no time for this today, and can’t address the other comments, but want to reply to your comments about MGTOW in response to mine. We seem to be talking past each other, so please tell me what you disagree with.

    MGTOW without socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing one’s sex drive is meaningless and no distinction from Red Pill ideas.

    MGTOW starts with socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing sex. Some have taken it further, claiming that detaching from society in other ways, adopting “alt right” race realism, anarchic ideas and living an off-grid subsistence is part of it too. While I think that’s an absurd conflagration of idiotic social/political ideas peddled by sophists who don’t understand intersexual dynamics, politics, political philosophy, sociology, evolution or economics, that’s how the various “levels” of MGTOW beyond just dealing with women work out. Aside from my criticism of those ideas, am I correct in identifying the ideas that make up MGTOW?

    My point is that if you don’t socially eschew women and de-emphasize sex, you are just Red Pill. I also disagree that adopting the premises of “Game” makes one a PUA. Any proper digestion of the Red Pill means that you understand Game is about just being socially intelligent. Using that knowledge with the goal of picking up lots of women and fucking them is what makes one a PUA. Ignoring Game makes one a PurplePiller.

    My take. What say you?

  67. I agree and cosign that entirely GW. Excellent four points. I read it several years ago when I didn’t have “hand” and did have One-Itis for my high quality wife (this all has changed for the better). And then I moved on from that simple framework as it was presented. And it took a good 18 months to get to a point where I had actualized my own mission from a script that I adapted from MAP.

    It worked.

    It is by no means easy and by no means quick. The best time start these things is a long time ago. The next best time is now.

  68. @HABD

    ” “I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often.”

    why do you say that?…seriously…”

    When I compliment her, it usually feels like supplication.

    “do you do it bc you want to make her feel good or try to ‘manipulate’ her or bc she might get mad if you don’t (ie suck up = her frame)… OR bc YOU actually appreciate what she did? compliment her bc of that last reason as much as you want…as long as it’s YOUR frame, it’s fine…and bc of the social dynamic in play, she’ll do what she has to to get you to stop…lol…(i know, it doesn’t make sense…lol…) it’s a frame battle…”

    I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does.

    “this is a shit test…and she wins if she can control your behavior = get you to STOP giving her (authentic) compliments = stop being dominant…lol…”

    I’m going to try to observe this more closely to figure out exactly what is going on. I’ll post it here. If she cooks a good dinner or something I’ll compliment her on it and describe her reaction as precisely as I can.

    “have you ever just ‘back turned’ her (remove your attention) when she does something you don’t like? it will seem very rude…and you WILL get a shit test (pushback)…that’s bc it’s effective…lol…”

    Yeah I do that often actually. Usually results in a shit test that I’m able to brush aside.

  69. I know the score on Athol, Rollo.

    Just trying to help another commenter out. And it is clear I’m not endorsing anything other than MAP for Dutch. I think it will help him in the way GW summarizes.

    1. @SJF, the only value Athol has ever really had was the Primer, however he compromises and disqualifies whatever value it had with his ‘Mindful’ plans and watered down Purple Pill marketeering he’s had to do from financial necessity.

      His is the template for guys like Mark Manson, Evan Mark Katz, and soon AVfM. I can’t in good conscience endorse anything from Kay anymore. For any good the Primer did it only serves to plug men back into the Matrix, with their wives’ approval, and at a cost of $149 per hour.

      Fuck him.

  70. Dutchman on compliments
    I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does.

    Need to separate out those motives, IMO. Doing things for women, even in LTR / married life, “to make her feel good” is poor frame. It tends to lead to “reciprocity thinking”, i.e. “I did this and made her feel good, so now…” which essentially is negotiating desire. It doesn’t work.

    Oh, and if she comes to expect compliments for just about anything she does, that’s only digging the hole deeper.

    Compliment her when she deserves it. Not to make her feel good.

  71. @Anon Reader

    “Need to separate out those motives, IMO. Doing things for women, even in LTR / married life, “to make her feel good” is poor frame. It tends to lead to “reciprocity thinking”, i.e. “I did this and made her feel good, so now…” which essentially is negotiating desire. It doesn’t work. ”

    Agreed and working on it.

  72. @Scribbler:

    “MGTOW starts with socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing sex.”

    I agree. I do not agree that it necessarily means not going through a checkout line because the cashier is a woman.

    “My point is that if you don’t socially eschew women and de-emphasize sex, you are just Red Pill.”

    I thought I was pretty clear here. Red Pill is the model. Accepting the model is what makes you Red Pill. How you use the model in your life is a different issue. There are a number of approaches to life that are Red Pill, even though they may be mutually exclusive.

    So, ummm, yeah.

    ” I also disagree that adopting the premises of “Game” makes one a PUA.”

    As do I. What makes one PUA is the degree to which one emphasizes the pursuit of sex.

    Which, like many things in life, occurs on a spectrum. The signal is analog*, not digital.

    *It seems I have no affinity for the Franco-British spelling of this word, even under the influence of the spell checker. There is no “ue” in “logos.”

    1. Since I agree with both you and Scribbler on the MGTOW topic, I think you both agree (or mostly) on it as well.

      Boolean (not digital since a digital scalar signal is discrete, but not necessarily boolean) is what you meant to say. “It is a gradient, not boolean.”

  73. @Dutchman: “I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does. ”

    Which do you think she would appreciate more, a small diamond, or a hopper full of grass clippings?

  74. @Andy

    +1 on Sentient’s advice…(although i don’t really know enough about the changes at MMSL to agree/disagree, but he’s generally solid on the other stuff, and it matches Rollo’s opinion, so there you go…lol)

    my spectrum of goodness = [hard-ass red pill….>>>….clueless blue pill] = the more actual red pill you can get into your diet the better off you will be (regardless of comfort zone issues)…’purple pill’ is somewhere on that spectrum…and on the ‘right’ side of the blue pill…(pun intended…lol)
    ————-

    “@having a bad day

    Hey, I think you said you were married… Just wanted to bounce some things off of ya.

    Do you have an open relationship type of thing or monogamous?”

    emotionally or physically?…lol…and which one do you think girls care about more?…

    “Reason I say that is because you know objectively marriage is great, but I have that “I’m going to break your heart.” feeling.”

    how’s that FI treating you?…lol…that feeling is the FI’s ‘hand on your shoulder’ (= blue pill) as you go about your day… ‘breaking a girl’s heart’ is just a negative emotional spike…and reinforces the ‘beta provider’ resource security part of the FI…technically, it’s YOU expecting relational equity in your marriage to inhere to your benefit (ie your ‘loyalty’ means something to her…). Rollo has some posts about that… (keep in mind it’s a bell curve distribution…but still…AWALT)

    “The catch is that I’ve got young kids. Obviously I’m going to wait till they’re older,”

    nope, you need to be working on your whole package right now…doesn’t mean you have to actually ‘cheat’ right now, but you need to be working on your shit…which is prepping the outcome you want…it doesn’t just happen over night.

    ” but I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day.”

    see above…girls don’t like to be ‘downgraded’…but the more you increase your value, the easier it will be to get what you want…

    ” I’m going to try and go the pLTR or open route first. Wondering if you’ve succeeded in doing that.”

    IF you are going to do this, you need to have that red pill just about ready to poop out…lol…(ie thoroughly digested and incorporated into your life…). when you get to that point, YaReally has the game plan at his archives…when you’re ready, you will be able to modify it as necessary…ALL on your own…lol…no actual input from the peanut gallery will be needed…although more sets of eyes on the problem, the higher your confidence will be…lol

    in my case, [<<<<>>>>]…so there you go…easy, peasy…lol…

    seriously, i’ve got open IOI invites from [opsec override] MILFy friends, etc (married or not…)…just toooo much potential drama there…lol…at least for now…lol…

    if you are asking if i have already worked out a plan to have a couple of hot college girls move in…surprisingly, it’s not a high priority for me right now…lol…i have other shit i’m working out right now… mostly burden of performance issues…but once i get that worked out…

    good luck!

  75. Sentient! Welcome to TRM! And yes, the Shame video clip was most useful..reminded to look for the lip biting as well (Sentient was the guy who initially showed me that clip).

    I didn’t try to pull her because the logistics didn’t work – I had to go meet someone else and she had a long trip to get back home. I was also conscious of not overdoing the turning her on thing and trigger ASD for next time. I COULD have tried to pull her to the bar toilet for a BJ, but she wasn’t turned on enough for that – I would have needed at least another hour to get to that point.

    That said, HABD is right to some extent. Not so much that I have a M/W good girl/bad girl complex..more of a frame issue..like for e.g. if a girl says on her profile (not this girl) that she wants to take things slowly or she tells me that in person..I know it’s a shit test, but my frame isn’t quite strong enough to completely disregard it, you know?

    HABD – I agree with your assessment. I’d say 50-55% chance of getting her home directly next time. Normally I’d say even lower but the fact that she was so open about not wanting a relationship (she nodded enthusiastically when I said I didn’t want to settle down) gives me hope. No doubt she was attracted to me and I could sleep with her eventually..just not sure she will come straight home later in the week.

    I’m not sure what you mean about it being beta bait when she complimented my grey hair and my age? Especially with the age, I had a vague sense of unease like “Umm..not sure this is right” but I can’t articulate it. In both cases I kind of nodded and ignored it I think. At best I may have given her a perfunctory “thanks”.

    Also not sure what you mean about doing alpha stuff in a beta provider frame..why was it a beta provider frame? That said, because I wasn’t planning to get her home anyway, I didn’t meet her at the quiet pub near my house..I met her downtown after work in an upscale bar, wearing my suit. But surely, just dressing well can’t trigger her beta provider circuits??

    PS – I think you were going to do a writeup a while ago about turning your marriage around..I think that would be really interesting to read.

    PPS – I have a couple more FRs to write up of dates from over the weekend and more are scheduled (I’m really hitting this hard for this week because I have a lot of free time) – will post soon – either this thread or the Red Pill Monthly thread.

  76. @GW: Our disagreement is based on his previous definition of MGTOW, which is boolean.

    The Levels of MGTOW model is a digital scalar.

  77. Sentient, Rollo and others – I am interested in why you think Athol/MMSL has gone downhill. I’m not married or anything but I did read the original MMSL Primer 2011 for fun (I think Sentient mentioned it on CH) and it was a light easy read and seemed to be a good prescriptive primer on taking action in a marriage to improve it in a red pill context, but without too much underlying theory/reasons to confuse people.

    I’ve also had a quick read through of the blog just now and I’m a bit confused – there seems to be talk of “increasing the female alpha” (which seems to be a euphemism for women trying to lose weight/get fit/make more of a sexual effort – but the terminology is confusing) and some stuff about how men and women take *turns* being Captain and First Officer?

    Let me put this another way – what has changed in the advice coming from Athol that you think is a bad idea?

    1. @Culum, Athol jumped the shark when he and his wife were essentially doxxed and both lost (or quit?) their jobs to do MMSL as a full time job. In doing so they found that the only way to be profitable was to enlist women’s approval in their husbands’ transformation process.

      Thus, you get all these paid tiers of forum participation, almost exclusively female moderated forums, the term ‘Mindful’ is coined to placate women’s worries that their husbands might find more control in their marriages than they’re comfortable with, etc.

      Any value MMSL had in the past is at best a means to draw men back into a feminine approved Purple Pill mindset now. Quite honestly I think it’s potentially damaging to men, but the good news is most of the guys I hear from who were forum regulars are abandoning it because it’s become a male space that’s been assimilated by the feminine and they get banned or find it useless now.

  78. “technically, it’s YOU expecting relational equity in your marriage to inhere to your benefit ”

    Good point.

    “girls don’t like to be ‘downgraded’…but the more you increase your value, the easier it will be to get what you want…”

    “but if she still has the title – and the respect – as a high value man’s wife, inside she will be happy despite herself…”

    I get this part. I actually think I’m as good as she’s going to get as it is. Provider or Sex… lol. But I tend to have a high opinion of myself. I actually joked about screwing college girls or something and she said “do whatever makes you happy”

  79. @Rollo “Athol jumped the shark ”

    MAP went from Male Action Plan to Marriage Action Plan to Mindful Attraction Plan… The Mindful Attraction Plan book (yes I read it SJW 😉 ) was a seismic shift to the purple… this book was originally supposed to be an update of the Primer for 2013 but as I recall AK was also in discussions with a partner to bring MMSL very mainstream in a series of paid live forums so he scrapped all the Primer level truth and wrapped things in love guru ribbons and bows, both in an appeal to more women AND to comfort lot’s of beta guys who were finding the hard work of TRP just tooooo hard…

    Then he started to ban a lot of forum commenters (raises hand)… If you read the older forum posts you will see a bunch of banned commenters, who are worth reading.

  80. MMSL has become another “Build – A – Beta” site. Wouldn’t surprise me if $usan Wal$h now approves. That’s how bad it’s gotten. In time it will decay to a hot tub full of estrogen with a few Gamma’s floating around in it, but I’m sure it will continue to bank some coin. Nobody ever went broke stroking women’s egos and telling men what to do.

    Frankly, Athol had his weaknesses even years ago. I remember him stating that men should avoid any site or writer that used the term “Marriage 2.0”, for example. That was a red flag, because denying reality is no way to go about fixing anything. I wouldn’t send any man there now.

    I’m not sure that there’s anything in the original MAP that can’t be found elsewhere. Maybe even in books by some misogynistic bastard named “Tomassi”?

  81. @culum

    “increasing the female alpha” (which seems to be a euphemism for women trying to lose weight/get fit/make more of a sexual effort”

    I was an original forum member and stayed through 2014. What you find on the forum, and on sites like TRM and CH, is that the women that come here (not trolls) are generally high sex drive women who are stuck with formerly alpha but now low T men… On MMSL in almost every case the woman’s husband would be diagnosed low T. So all her being prettier and being sexier and kinkier did nothing to increase his desire for her… then there was another smaller group of women who really loved dominance and being submissive but their husband was so BP he couldn’t act on it or she was terrified that she could never tell him what she really wanted in bed, just endlessly hint…

    So they come play footsie on the forums under the guise of getting advice… It’s quite obvious once they start posting… Game is game after all right?

    on your FR

    “I didn’t try to pull her because the logistics didn’t work – I had to go meet someone else and she had a long trip to get back home”

    How can logistics YOU set up not work? LOL Unless, unless perhaps – think about this – you subconsciously set them up so you did not have to pull… Like you aren’t watching PIMP and SHIFT and learning game like a job to not pull right? And you know great game will be defeated by poor logistics. So how can you set up a meet that you can’t execute on?

    Just think about it.

    And this “I met her downtown after work in an upscale bar, wearing my suit.” triggering beta provider frame… LOL at that… read the sentence before you get to the suit. Right? Downtown – work – upscale bar = catch!

    You can totally rock out all of that no problem, just smash any provider vibe up front hard. Have fun!

  82. Sentient
    Then he started to ban a lot of forum commenters (raises hand)…

    Huh. You, too? Is the purge now complete?

    If you read the older forum posts you will see a bunch of banned commenters, who are worth reading.

    Wonder how long that will last, now that moderation is all female. Any really useful comments should probably be copied out to somewhere else…

    One of the interesting things about women who intersect with the androsphere is how often they wind up deleting things. Giggles became notorious for ripping out entire comment strings. Various “red pill” women have gone through multiple blogs, shutting them down and deleting them then reviving them, getting into catfights, deleting stuff, then shutting down that blog. It’s only been recently, reading comments by YaReally about the emotional roller coaster, that I’ve come to have some understanding why that is.

    Tolkein shows a rare moment of insight into women in Fellowship of the Ring, when Galadrial briefly covets the Ring of power. “You will love and fear me”, or something like that.

    Women can be great executive assistants. They tend to make very poor executives. There are reasons for that, starting with “effects of estrogen on the human brain”.

  83. @Anonymous Reader

    “Huh. You, too? Is the purge now complete?”

    Hehehe… I would get into more and more scrapes with Serenity and the other ladies there when I would tell guys to push it, use dread, etc. and the ladies would freak out and hamster on with pure projection…

    After a couple of guys posted they were going to PM me that they wanted me to coach them… well then I was banned to my surprise…

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