A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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My take on Rollo’s livestream on Niko’s channel yesterday. – Livestream attendance was surprisingly low. Peak number of viewers looked like 67 to me. For a blog with 500k+ views per month, one would have thought there would be more. Let’s see how the views of the recorded session go. Recommendations: Promote this better here and on Twitter ahead of time. – Content: It was an informal discussion, Rollo covered basics of hypergamy and married man game and some other well trodden topics such as idealism. I’m not sure this was as effective as it might be. I think if… Read more »

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@Rollo: I didn’t know there was going to be a chat in “real time”. So I agree entirely with Scribblerg, advertise it better, particularly now that you know how it works after trying it the first time.

I’ll try to join the chat next time.

@Scribblerg: I didn’t get much out of this entry, but I think it is probably good to have the 1st entry be entry-level so that beginners that like the different (not written) format also have a entry-level.

That said I’m hoping next month they cover stuff that I can benefit from.

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@Culum S. I wanted to clarify one point I thought I was implying, i.e., enjoy the journey of the hunt. I certainly could join you, but life is a series of moments and remember, regardless of the outcome, it is a moment to savor. I get that you did, and I hope without regret. Thanks again. @All commenters There have been so many great/useful comments and I didn’t tabulate all the great responses, so let me thank by what I remember and excuse for not calling everyone out. This is a great forum with many intelligent, knowledgeable and mature men… Read more »

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@IAS – I’m was being gentle. Affiliating with Niko is “off brand” for Rollo. Niko is a lightweight in every sense of the word wrt the manosphere and his ideas and popularity etc. (as much as he seems like a very good man – being a good man has little to do with one’s ability to create compelling content or being engaging or creating a strong platform) Rollo should align with another strong brand which adds value to his and is complementary. As a man who does brands professionally, I have to wonder why Rollo would his brand with Niko’s.… Read more »

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“MGTOW . . . It’s certainly no different from the Red Pill . . .” Correct. Red Pill is the foundation of MGTOW, just as it as is the foundation of PUA. Red Pill is the theoretical model. MGTOW and PUA are two of the practices under the model. Some people find Nihilism to be oppressive and a cause for depression. Some people find it a release and a cause for joy. They’re still all nihilists despite the difference in their reaction and practice. The model is the same. The distinction is that under the influence of Red Pill knowledge… Read more »

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Just wanted to give you guys an update from my post a week or two ago about my wife wanting marriage counseling after a big fight. I told her that I simply didn’t want to go, and that I didn’t think that we would actually get divorced. I basically remained calm throughout our discussion of the matter and maintained a frame of “of course this isn’t going to happen” and most of all, I was able to let go of my butthurt. I haven’t been angry with her at all since then and things haven’t been too bad. No fights… Read more »

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@ Sun @ SJF Spinning plates is beyond my current skill level. I also feel like an LTR is beyond my current skill level. But I do get the point of having to push beyond my comfort zone. I’m also in over my head with some clients; the jobs are beyond my current skill level. I can see how it’s sink or swim. I’ve been in limbo, maintaining this relationship with this girl without committing to her, and very tentatively Gaming another girl or two. I haven’t been going hard at all, though, certainly not to the point of getting… Read more »

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“She’s asked me more than once if I’m OK with that. Like her hanging out with other guys, or what I think of that. Not sure exactly what the shit test there is. One time I said it kind of bothered me, and she reacted by getting all happy and saying that means I care about her, etc. and she was glad I said that. Not sure what to make of that.” Not exactly a shit test. She’s testing your level of commitment/care to her. A girl wants to be possessed by a high-value man. Right now she’s anxious cause… Read more »

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Ok i have an update to my prior predicament. Instead of me having to move out i was able to “convince” her that her moving out was the best chance she had for us to remain together in the long term. My true motive was to just get her out as fast as possible and then implement no contact, as far as she’s concerned this is her best chance at keeping our marriage. I know this is manipulation but honestly i feel that the rules of engagement do not apply here as the history of abuse and her unstable natures… Read more »

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@Dutchman I don’t know your situation, but I feel for you. For a man, name calling (out of anger) cannot improve the outcome. When I am in a solid frame and my wife gets over-emotional, angry with me or a kid, I sometimes tell her to keep quiet until she is ready to act like an adult (or something similar), and that tends to work well (though her initial reaction isn’t always positive). The arguments, mostly in the past now thankfully, that led to more problems for me down the road were the ones in which I also let my… Read more »

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@Camarowoes Don’t even feel guilty or even feel the need to justify your actions rsp to your deception in this situation. Protect yourself first and then choose to support those who deserve your energy. Good move!

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@camarowoes: sweet play. checkmate doesnt equal manipulation; in this case it was survival. When you maintain no contact it will be over. If.you just keep reading here it will sink in even more over time. I know I’m subject to criticism from others. I step oitside myself.and see.it.from others perspective. Still doesnt stop me from following the number one rule of biology: survival. I refuse to criticize myself in a way that will demoralize myself. This from a guyy who has suffered through an abusive childhood and has had a large share of adult suffering as well. I come.here and… Read more »

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@Camaro: I know this is manipulation but . . .”

. . . you appear to be very good at it. Good man.

Now batten down the hatches and take care of yourself.

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@Softek Spinning plates is beyond my current skill level. I also feel like an LTR is beyond my current skill level. With the dynamics at play between plate spinning and LTR, work on spinning plates first. Don’t bother with an LTR till you’ve got that down. Without the ability to spin plates, you’ll get into an LTR with a scarcity mentality and wind up… well, exactly where you are right now, ya know? They’re both difficult, but having a decent LTR requires a bunch of time spinning plates both for purposes of searching through women and building the mentality required… Read more »

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@Camaro,

Congrats! Good to know you’re making progress.

Now change all the locks to YOUR house.

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@Sentient “On your FR – why oh why oh why won’t you try and pull her” he still has ‘good girl/bad girl’ = NAWALT lenses on…lol…that’s why he could escalate fast on those ‘sugar babys’…bc they were bad girls…lol… and the non-nesting format really isn’t THAT bad…lol…search my name on this post and i explained to Culum why i’m here…and then there was an admin crisis…lol…and trying to comment ‘across pages’ is tricky…(just had that happen…lol) i’m actually surprized at what kind of epiphany level insights i’m having on this shit…lol…real ground breaking stuff…and not just PUA either = real… Read more »

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@Dutchman January 24th, 2016 at 9:17 am Good advice by Having a bad day. I don’t quite understand it (might be due to the sentence and paragraph structure) but it sounds legit and practical. Some larger issues. I sense you would rather keep the marriage than blow it up and start again. Once again, I think the benefit the the children is a big one. I still subscribe to red pill and married man game here, but some benefit can be gained by the purple pill, when there are currently some critical defects in the marriage. I would once again… Read more »

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Damn. I spelled ones wrong.

Liz
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kfg: “@Camaro: I know this is manipulation but . . .”
. . . you appear to be very good at it. Good man

Jedi master level.

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@HABD “try this…the next time she does something even close to something you like…compliment her for that thing…now, here’s the weird part…she’ll probably try to shit on it (the compliment)… how she does this/what she says is part of her Rolodex (and it might pay for you to start keeping a log of these…and i’m not kidding…lol)… there are a bunch of reasons she’ll try, just be ready for it…the best way to approach it is to think like it’s a frame battle (bc that’s kind of what it is…lol). she’s going to be trying to get back to HER… Read more »

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@ Dutchman You don’t want to AMOG other dudes. You want to be guy friends with high quality men and be able to suck up to and be friends with douche-bag AMOGs. Otherwise your will be just a dick and get others to hate you–not what you want. Did you even read this?: http://therationalmale.com/2015/02/02/the-art-of-amog/ “Women love a man who Just Gets It, and the best, playful way of expressing that is with Amused Mastery; but it’s even more sexy when that Mastery extends to men who she perceives are your intersexual rivals. This then, by association, compliments her ego for… Read more »

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(note – i debated on posting this bc i generally don’t engage ‘trolly’ types (that’s why it’s late) but i spent the time getting my thoughts sorted and thought somebody else might get some benefit out of it…) @Not Born This Morning Welcome!… you know, i just started commenting here a little while ago, so i don’t know how long you’ve been here, but i just wanted to welcome you anyway…you seem to be having a bad day…and i know how that is…lol “Here is my advice…” 1. Don’t get fat. 2. If you are at all fat, get unfat.… Read more »

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@Dutchman “I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often.” why do you say that?…seriously… do you do it bc you want to make her feel good or try to ‘manipulate’ her or bc she might get mad if you don’t (ie suck up = her frame)… OR bc YOU actually appreciate what she did? compliment her bc of that last reason as much as you want…as long as it’s YOUR frame, it’s fine…and bc of the social dynamic in play, she’ll do what she has to to get you to stop…lol…(i know, it doesn’t make sense…lol…) it’s… Read more »

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@having a bad day Hey, I think you said you were married… Just wanted to bounce some things off of ya. Do you have an open relationship type of thing or monogamous? Reason I say that is because you know objectively marriage is great, but I have that “I’m going to break your heart.” feeling. The catch is that I’ve got young kids. Obviously I’m going to wait till they’re older, but I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day. I’m going to try and go the pLTR or open route first.… Read more »

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@sjf @dutchman “Athols blog is a purple pill mess. And it will mess with your head–it is too positive. A lot of the good stuff and articles were written a long time ago before he was trying to appeal to women and get more subscribers.” Yup… he went downhill after he started paid coaching and female moderation of the forum. I’d avoid the Mindful Attraction Plan and only read the 2011 Primer. Still a great pithy intro to female attraction, shit tests and evo psych/bio. Just get a separate account. The forum had some great posters… fredless, davebowman, picard, sf64,… Read more »

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@andy “I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day” You will only break her heart if you are low value or the women you choose are lower value than her. Otherwise she might not be happy with your choices, but if she still has the title – and the respect – as a high value man’s wife, inside she will be happy despite herself… what you have to do is not rub her face in it, and not set up situations where female social pressure requires her to do something to preserve… Read more »

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@ Sentient “I’d avoid the Mindful Attraction Plan and only read the 2011 Primer.” Care to elaborate on why? MAP is a stripped down version of the Primer without the geeky Star Trek shit. And @All and @married guys that abdicated frame because no-told them this shit: Keep in mind that early Athol Kay stuff was a distillation of red pill awareness and married man game–distilled from exhaustive research (probably from over a decade and thousands of articles) from various sources so he could get in his wife’s pants (and it worked fine to that end). So the Primer and… Read more »

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http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACK7uu07L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

@sjf well the cover kind of covers it IMO, but your comment that it is a stripped down version of the Primer does as well… why get a stripped down purple version? And yes his early stuff was distilled – from Rollo, CH, Vox etc… LOL

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“why get a stripped down purple version?” Because it strips out the geek. I actually read it for free (Kindle Unlimited) and I figure it saved me about $500K and a lot of time (an old man’s most valuable asset) and grief. I actually read it, did you? Dutch needs all the help he can get. (Heh, it’s for the children, you know). Or did you just judge the book by its cover? Athol Kay is intellectually incapable of coming up with a decent title to his books, a true Geek at it (try parading around the house with a… Read more »

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Re: Mindful Action Plan I had already read Rollo’s books and spent a hundred plus hours reading his (50% of my reading then, 75% now) and other Red Pill author’s blog posts before getting the MAP book. I found some of the basic framework and guidelines very useful, but scant novel useful information beyond what a cursory read provides. I only read it once and here is the main points that still stick out: 1. The overall MAP can be used as a plan to either obtain her submission or prepare yourself to live a better life without her. This… Read more »

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@KFG – I have no time for this today, and can’t address the other comments, but want to reply to your comments about MGTOW in response to mine. We seem to be talking past each other, so please tell me what you disagree with. MGTOW without socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing one’s sex drive is meaningless and no distinction from Red Pill ideas. MGTOW starts with socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing sex. Some have taken it further, claiming that detaching from society in other ways, adopting “alt right” race realism, anarchic ideas and living an off-grid subsistence is part of… Read more »

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I agree and cosign that entirely GW. Excellent four points. I read it several years ago when I didn’t have “hand” and did have One-Itis for my high quality wife (this all has changed for the better). And then I moved on from that simple framework as it was presented. And it took a good 18 months to get to a point where I had actualized my own mission from a script that I adapted from MAP. It worked. It is by no means easy and by no means quick. The best time start these things is a long time… Read more »

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@HABD ” “I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often.” why do you say that?…seriously…” When I compliment her, it usually feels like supplication. “do you do it bc you want to make her feel good or try to ‘manipulate’ her or bc she might get mad if you don’t (ie suck up = her frame)… OR bc YOU actually appreciate what she did? compliment her bc of that last reason as much as you want…as long as it’s YOUR frame, it’s fine…and bc of the social dynamic in play, she’ll do what she has to to… Read more »

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The unwillingness of MGTOW to see the benefits of game are just so stunning. Check out this video from a MGTOW claiming that the responses of women to his questions PROVE that you should go MGTOW. No, they prove that women respond to game…
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiBMzdU9i2I&w=560&h=315%5D

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I know the score on Athol, Rollo.

Just trying to help another commenter out. And it is clear I’m not endorsing anything other than MAP for Dutch. I think it will help him in the way GW summarizes.

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Dutchman on compliments I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does. Need to separate out those motives, IMO. Doing things for women, even in LTR / married life, “to make her feel good” is poor frame. It tends to lead to “reciprocity thinking”, i.e. “I did this and made her feel good, so now…” which essentially is negotiating desire. It doesn’t work. Oh, and if she comes to expect compliments for just about anything she does, that’s only digging the hole deeper. Compliment her when she deserves it.… Read more »

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@SJF
https://archive.org/details/b20442580
Wonder what your take is?

GW
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@ Rollo Re: Kay Athol’s mission vs. yours

Agreed. As someone above already said, it is available free/cheap via Kindle Unlimited. Re $20/ month (Cough!) I love the free market.

And this highlights what a contribution you are making to Mankind!

Dutchman
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Re: MMSL

All of the stuff I’ve been reading that actually makes sense has been from about 2012 or before.

Dutchman
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@Anon Reader

“Need to separate out those motives, IMO. Doing things for women, even in LTR / married life, “to make her feel good” is poor frame. It tends to lead to “reciprocity thinking”, i.e. “I did this and made her feel good, so now…” which essentially is negotiating desire. It doesn’t work. ”

Agreed and working on it.

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@Scribbler: “MGTOW starts with socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing sex.” I agree. I do not agree that it necessarily means not going through a checkout line because the cashier is a woman. “My point is that if you don’t socially eschew women and de-emphasize sex, you are just Red Pill.” I thought I was pretty clear here. Red Pill is the model. Accepting the model is what makes you Red Pill. How you use the model in your life is a different issue. There are a number of approaches to life that are Red Pill, even though they may be… Read more »

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@Dutchman: “I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does. ”

Which do you think she would appreciate more, a small diamond, or a hopper full of grass clippings?

GW
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Since I agree with both you and Scribbler on the MGTOW topic, I think you both agree (or mostly) on it as well.

Boolean (not digital since a digital scalar signal is discrete, but not necessarily boolean) is what you meant to say. “It is a gradient, not boolean.”

Dutchman
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@kfg

The diamond.

having a bad day
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@Andy +1 on Sentient’s advice…(although i don’t really know enough about the changes at MMSL to agree/disagree, but he’s generally solid on the other stuff, and it matches Rollo’s opinion, so there you go…lol) my spectrum of goodness = [hard-ass red pill….>>>….clueless blue pill] = the more actual red pill you can get into your diet the better off you will be (regardless of comfort zone issues)…’purple pill’ is somewhere on that spectrum…and on the ‘right’ side of the blue pill…(pun intended…lol) ————- “@having a bad day Hey, I think you said you were married… Just wanted to bounce some… Read more »

Culum Struan
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Sentient! Welcome to TRM! And yes, the Shame video clip was most useful..reminded to look for the lip biting as well (Sentient was the guy who initially showed me that clip). I didn’t try to pull her because the logistics didn’t work – I had to go meet someone else and she had a long trip to get back home. I was also conscious of not overdoing the turning her on thing and trigger ASD for next time. I COULD have tried to pull her to the bar toilet for a BJ, but she wasn’t turned on enough for that… Read more »

kfg
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@GW: Our disagreement is based on his previous definition of MGTOW, which is boolean.

The Levels of MGTOW model is a digital scalar.

Culum Struan
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Sentient, Rollo and others – I am interested in why you think Athol/MMSL has gone downhill. I’m not married or anything but I did read the original MMSL Primer 2011 for fun (I think Sentient mentioned it on CH) and it was a light easy read and seemed to be a good prescriptive primer on taking action in a marriage to improve it in a red pill context, but without too much underlying theory/reasons to confuse people. I’ve also had a quick read through of the blog just now and I’m a bit confused – there seems to be talk… Read more »

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“technically, it’s YOU expecting relational equity in your marriage to inhere to your benefit ” Good point. “girls don’t like to be ‘downgraded’…but the more you increase your value, the easier it will be to get what you want…” “but if she still has the title – and the respect – as a high value man’s wife, inside she will be happy despite herself…” I get this part. I actually think I’m as good as she’s going to get as it is. Provider or Sex… lol. But I tend to have a high opinion of myself. I actually joked about… Read more »

Sentient
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@Rollo “Athol jumped the shark ” MAP went from Male Action Plan to Marriage Action Plan to Mindful Attraction Plan… The Mindful Attraction Plan book (yes I read it SJW ) was a seismic shift to the purple… this book was originally supposed to be an update of the Primer for 2013 but as I recall AK was also in discussions with a partner to bring MMSL very mainstream in a series of paid live forums so he scrapped all the Primer level truth and wrapped things in love guru ribbons and bows, both in an appeal to more women… Read more »

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MMSL has become another “Build – A – Beta” site. Wouldn’t surprise me if $usan Wal$h now approves. That’s how bad it’s gotten. In time it will decay to a hot tub full of estrogen with a few Gamma’s floating around in it, but I’m sure it will continue to bank some coin. Nobody ever went broke stroking women’s egos and telling men what to do. Frankly, Athol had his weaknesses even years ago. I remember him stating that men should avoid any site or writer that used the term “Marriage 2.0”, for example. That was a red flag, because… Read more »

Sentient
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@culum “increasing the female alpha” (which seems to be a euphemism for women trying to lose weight/get fit/make more of a sexual effort” I was an original forum member and stayed through 2014. What you find on the forum, and on sites like TRM and CH, is that the women that come here (not trolls) are generally high sex drive women who are stuck with formerly alpha but now low T men… On MMSL in almost every case the woman’s husband would be diagnosed low T. So all her being prettier and being sexier and kinkier did nothing to increase… Read more »

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Sentient Then he started to ban a lot of forum commenters (raises hand)… Huh. You, too? Is the purge now complete? If you read the older forum posts you will see a bunch of banned commenters, who are worth reading. Wonder how long that will last, now that moderation is all female. Any really useful comments should probably be copied out to somewhere else… One of the interesting things about women who intersect with the androsphere is how often they wind up deleting things. Giggles became notorious for ripping out entire comment strings. Various “red pill” women have gone through… Read more »

Sentient
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@Anonymous Reader

“Huh. You, too? Is the purge now complete?”

Hehehe… I would get into more and more scrapes with Serenity and the other ladies there when I would tell guys to push it, use dread, etc. and the ladies would freak out and hamster on with pure projection…

After a couple of guys posted they were going to PM me that they wanted me to coach them… well then I was banned to my surprise…

Anonymous Reader
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MAP went from Male Action Plan to Marriage Action Plan to Mindful Attraction Plan… The Mindful Attraction Plan

“Mindful” is chick crack right now. I was getting a hipster-coffee last week and chatted up a bottle blonde in line; soft fabric scarf looped around her neck, check, earth-tone blouse in contrast, check, black pants with calf-high boots, check – I tossed off a few words that included how “mindful” I have become of “clean eating” and her face lit right up.

So no surprise that the MAP is now “Mindful”.

Sentient
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One last comment on MMSL and the change… The original Male Action Plan and the Marriage action Plan had a series of phases to progress through, 1 through 7 I recall… with the last phases being setting your minimum requirements for a relationship and if they were not ultimately met, severing the relationship, divorce etc. and moving on with your life.

The Mindful Attraction Plan eliminated that process…

Forge the Sky
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@kfg

“It seems I have no affinity for the Franco-British spelling of this word, even under the influence of the spell checker. There is no “ue” in “logos.”’

Oddly enough, this is the part of the comment I empathize with the most.

rugby11
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To me a huge part of the of the red pill is changing how I used to see something.

It’s taking all my blue pill BS and dressing better and not talking as much. Listing with intent and purpose.
It’s hard yet coming here keeps me relatively on track.

Chump No More
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* Also raising hand *

I was an MMSL ‘veteran’ but left on my own accord because I could no longer take the ‘pig piling’ I would get from linking and endorsing outside red pill thought, most especially Rollo.

It’s particularly disappointing for me because I credit Athol with my initial unplugging and I tried to ‘carry it forward’ until I could stomach it no longer.

Forge the Sky
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“Tolkein shows a rare moment of insight into women in Fellowship of the Ring, when Galadrial briefly covets the Ring of power. “You will love and fear me”, or something like that.” Tolkien had a profound understanding of Medieval values, mythology, and the power that struggle has on the human spirit. But he did seriously pedestalize the pussy. Interestingly, he also de-emphasized it at the same time (not many chicks around when he writes lol) and shows some insight into how to properly deal with the female foible of trying to ape men’s power (Eowyn wanted desperately to gain masculine… Read more »

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Also, don’t want to make this a nerdfest, but the Galadriel thing was actually the culmination of a long history of her struggle for power. She found redemption by refusing it when openly offered.

You can see an interesting contrast in how men and women seek power by contrasting her with Feanor, who sought power in order to do things rather than ‘all will love me and despair.’

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“All will love me, and despair”, that’s the line I was recalling. Keen insight into what women will do with power.

Not to get all GBFM, but there are things to be learned in great literature.
Madame Bovary, Anna Karenina and so forth all contain truth about women for those who pay attention.

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@Sentient January 25th, 2016 at 10:40 am @Rollo OK, officially I didn’t know all that shit about revisions and different versions……. and the forum stuff. Umm…. Sorry…..(no question mark.)…You guys. I’ll shut up about that Athol now. And try not to bring it up again, Kay? No idea which version I read a couple years ago in a couple hours and took it for what it was worth for me at the time. And I should probably pass on mentioning Andy’s last sentence (quote from wife) sounds like indifference rather than admiration and respect because it would make me look… Read more »

SJF
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Got it. And I’ll stop mentioning it as soon as my extinction burst settle down.

But I hope I didn’t piss you off so much that you are now converting to Pacific Standard Time.

Culum Struan
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Rollo, Sentient, thanks. That’s really interesting. So basically because of the financial pressures Rollo mentions, MMSL “shaved off” the last 20% harder edges of the original action plan in order to make it more palatable to women and not give too much power to guys.

Forge the Sky
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This is kinda a FR, though I wasn’t trying to ‘game’ the circumstance in particular. Just struck me bc I didn’t know how to interpret it afterwards, and I’m trying to understand group dynamics better. This happened at work. I work with a lot of cute 20-somethings; I use them to practice light banter/flirting but don’t usually go past that. I work in orthopedics and sometimes give friends/co-workers informal advice about say mild joint issues and shit that they don’t want to bother a doctor with. One of them complains to me of a sore shoulder. She’s been shit testing… Read more »

Culum Struan
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PS – It occurs to me also that in addition to the above, “enlisting the wife’s approval in the husband’s transformation plan” could destroy the foundation of the process entirely because if he needs his wife to tell him/help him on this path, then he is no longer a guy who “Just Gets It”

having a bad day
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@Forge the Sky sounds like they started to have competition anxiety (you had pre-selection) and they were competing for your attention, then the girls teamed up and got you reacting to them = beta…instead of ignoring their pleas for help… “Girl #2 started joking about it all – “No, Forge! Heal ME! ME!’ So I just kinda jumped from one to the other as they got my attention over time. ” and here’s the result… “I just faded from the center of focus. ” ie you fell into their frame…how’s that shiny armor feeling right about now…lol girls are tricky…lol…that… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Oh, also, here’s an IOI I’ve not heard mentioned before. It’s a bit situational, and therefore unusual; I’m going off an N of 3 here so grains of salt all around, though I think it’s pretty solid. She does it like this – she clasps her hands behind her back, then lifts them up while pushing out her chest as she breathes in. The conceit is that she’s stretching her shoulder/chest muscles and just so happens to be standing in profile about 8 feet in front of you. They do this when you got them attracted somehow, and then have… Read more »

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@Forge

If you were to change the set to me and my wife instead of you and the three girls, that is precisely the same as I mentioned over the weekend as my wife “keeping frame”. It’s just what they do unconsciously. Keeping frame is their default. And lately the more I keep good frame myself these days the more she tries harder to keep hers (extinction burst).

Yep. Frame is not power example.

I’m stoic about it, though. Just means we need better game.

agent p
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“Any value MMSL had in the past is at best a means to draw men back into a feminine approved Purple Pill mindset now. Quite honestly I think it’s potentially damaging to men, but the good news is most of the guys I hear from who were forum regulars are abandoning it because it’s become a male space that’s been assimilated by the feminine and they get banned or find it useless now.” This^^^^^ I started there in the first of 2013, it’s gone along way downhill since then. there used to be some RP Jedi masters on the forums… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@habd Thanks, it’s all s lot more obvious typed out. Wasn’t falling into their frame as badly as I made out – made them qualify a bit for my attention – but like you say they took over. Crazy how you little it takes to lose frame lol. It’s all in the tiny things, things a reformed nice guy like me can hardly imagine changing at times. Which of course is the point. But ya, three interested girls just back down to zero (not overall they still like me, but in that moment) just cause I started reacting to them.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@sjf

Yeah, I’ve been writing a lot about frame lately because that’s something I’m really working on. It’s a subtle thing. Understanding it is the first step in learning how to utilize it.

Dutchman
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@Culum

“PS – It occurs to me also that in addition to the above, “enlisting the wife’s approval in the husband’s transformation plan” could destroy the foundation of the process entirely because if he needs his wife to tell him/help him on this path, then he is no longer a guy who “Just Gets It” ”

This is exactly why I don’t want my wife to know that I’m reading any kind of relationship improvement shit.

Culum Struan
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YaReally HABD Sentient Forge GW et al Right, big Sunday 3 FRs coming up (yeah, Sunday was a busy day..I’m taking tonight off because another 23 year old flaked, and then I have a couple more dates scheduled tomorrow..although statistically at least one will flake). Sentient – yeah, point taken about subconsciously scheduling dates in a way that I know I can’t pull. Sunday date 1: 23 year old blonde HB7 from a sugar daddy site ————————————————————————- Don’t worry guys – I haven’t gone back to sugar sites. I was texting some 30-40 numbers in several cities when I stopped… Read more »

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I fully expect this to get buried in the hundreds of comments but one thing that may help our friend is a perspective I try to foster – Love them enough to act like you don’t. Understand that what they need is not what you need. Make what you provide what they need and not what you want to give them. I recently got in an argument with my LTR gf. She wanted me to apologize for hurting her feelings, I refused. It caused the whole thing to drag out longer but she came back. She saw that I was… Read more »

Culum Struan
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@Forge – just saw your mini FR. Was going to post exactly what HABD said but he beat me to it. What if you had done the same thing but gone a bit slower, at your pace instead of “rushing” between them? What if you had directed the action and the conversation and remained the center of focus? By teasing them, qualifying them and amping up the competition angle jokingly? Preferably with some sexual innuendo and strong EC/sexual voice tonality.. I am thinking of stuff like: “Now, now girls..form an orderly line..there’s only one of me and I only have… Read more »

Culum Struan
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Tiberius: Not lost – I read it I agree, but one question: do you see or apply a distinction between *refusing* to apologize and simply not apologizing? Like was it your gf saying “I’m hurt..you should apologize” and you saying “No. I did nothing wrong”. Or was it more like her being hurt and crying and trying to beta bait you into an apology? Personally I’m a fan of sincere apologies in an LTR if you genuinely have messed up. Rarely given, only if YOU believe you messed up (not because she’s hurt or crying), and given sincerely with no… Read more »

GW
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Love the FRs guys, even the desperation attempt with the fat chick. This is a fantastic thread. Someone could provide tremendous value by simply gathering the cream from this thread into some Cliff Notes.

having a bad day
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@Culum

“PS – I think you were going to do a writeup a while ago about turning your marriage around..I think that would be really interesting to read.”

lol…ya, maybe when my life gets less busy…i feel stressed enough for time just reminding you that CH had a whole post on beta baiting…

good luck!

Culum Struan
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Haha thanks GW, I aim to please. And thanks HABD – I’m googling it now.

SJF
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@Dutch “This is exactly why I don’t want my wife to know that I’m reading any kind of relationship improvement shit.” Imagine I was a guy friend of yours in real life. One that you trusted to be looking out for your interests. And I was red pill. I would push you to not walk on eggshells and say something like that. To own your shit and be self confident that as a man you are working on being better at being a masculine male. Not afraid of her knowing that you are reading any kind of improvement shit–no matter… Read more »

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My take on “marriage game” is that it would not have worked for me. The ex was going to divorce whoever she married, then leave them for the guy she is now with. I was just the chump that got stuck, it never mattered who I was or what I did. Believe it or not, but I was there. So I am pushing back here on LTR game. My experience. There does seem to be a lot of emphasis here on AWALT, no quality women. I won’t disagree that the market is not that great right now, I have seen… Read more »

kfg
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Walking Marriage

SJF
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Fyi: As you guys have heard from me in past, or not, my journey has taken me to a place where I don’t watch much television these days. (And my wife is pretty much addicted to it, you know the FI laden stuff). But there is nothing like a good drama that shows anti-hero masculine stuff. You know like Sons of Anarchy in the first three years before it jumped IDK what shark it jumped. And I was privy to watching Breaking Bad from it’s inception. A great story arc there, although it was painful not to see red pill… Read more »

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Dutchman

This is exactly why I don’t want my wife to know that I’m reading any kind of relationship improvement shit.

Yes. Because to explain the Red Pill is just pointless – demonstrate, don’t explicate. Show, don’t tell.

Follow Tuco’s rule…

Andy
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“Her socializing out (as an extrovert) is “better than” my doing my things in (as an introvert).”

http://yareallyarchive.com/2013/10/#comment-heartiste-487880
http://yareallyarchive.com/2013/9/#comment-heartiste-477816

Sentient
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@Culum Date 1 – ?????? where did you try to pull her? Did I miss that? “I… come across as powerful and driven and relaxed and know what I want ” Remember the young girl from your apartment – dominance? Remember most of what comes out of their mouth is projection? So here you had a girl, compliant and willing who is looking for a powerful, driven (older to boot) guy who knows what he wants and you lead her to what? She wants the fantasy, play into the fantasy Strong dominant alpha older guy… “She asked me lots of… Read more »

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@Forge the Sky “She does it like this – she clasps her hands behind her back, then lifts them up while pushing out her chest as she breathes in.” that’s straight up beta baiting…lol…can you think of a better way for a girl to get you ‘reacting’ to her?…lol “They do this when you got them attracted somehow, and then have started to ignore them a bit.” no, this is a standard shit test/beta baiting…your ignoring them is the trigger, but it’s bc you stopped ‘reacting’ to them (before they ‘let you go’…ie not on her schedule…), not that they… Read more »

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@Tiberius

“Understand that what they need is not what you need. Make what you provide what they need and not what you want to give them.

Nice… this is the start of everything with understanding women. Cats are not dogs!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4623646/meow-o.gif

SJF
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@Andy January 26th, 2016 at 5:25 am Hey, thanks for those comments from YaReally. “if after you’ve done that, you still hate interacting with people, then you can tell me you’re an introvert.” An INTJ pushing himself outside of his comfort zone and learning not to take himself seriously? lol” YaReally is a smart mother-fucker. Those are words of wisdom. I believe them now and I live them. Truth is five years ago, I couldn’t see it that way from ego-investments. I would get angry at having to socialize. Pretty much now after better mastery of Game I do enjoy… Read more »

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@ Sentient i think he still has issues wrt that FRA…that’s why he’s not pulling…(but i could be wrong about that..)(that and the good girl/bad girl thing…lol) i don’t know if he’s pulled a girl since that episode… but i think that’s actually a normal reaction to that kind of shit… @Culum props on putting in the work…and posting those FRs…i can tell you are actually getting better (even if it doesn’t seem like it right now)…lol ok, dude…now that that’s out of the way [rolls up sleeves…]…lol besides that residual FRA stuff as a potential issue, i still see… Read more »

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@HABD, Culum et al Mini FR follow up to a short one a few posts ago on CH. So I was with a client and we met these 2 late 30’s women and another dude in my hotel and we bounced to another bar. I was gaming a hot young 8 nightlife girl (bartender or waitress off duty). It was very late. She was at the juke box looking at selections. I came up behind her and said “oh no….” she turned around looking at me with ??? on her face. I said “you’re not going to put on some… Read more »

having a bad day
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@Sentient nice FR…props on going out and practicing… ” So they see me and I go over and am just neutral with the 6.” so, was she your target?…(not that it really matters for milfy girls…lol) “They both come back together and she says “we will walk you to your room so you get back safe”… hahaha and I think of HABD “Threesome” and so say OK.” lol…if you were really going to go for this, NOW is the time to set it up…(assume the sale and acknowledge their hindbrains’s interest/intent (which actually IS a threesome, even if you didn’t… Read more »

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