A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

733 comments on “A Teachable Moment

  1. MAP went from Male Action Plan to Marriage Action Plan to Mindful Attraction Plan… The Mindful Attraction Plan

    “Mindful” is chick crack right now. I was getting a hipster-coffee last week and chatted up a bottle blonde in line; soft fabric scarf looped around her neck, check, earth-tone blouse in contrast, check, black pants with calf-high boots, check – I tossed off a few words that included how “mindful” I have become of “clean eating” and her face lit right up.

    So no surprise that the MAP is now “Mindful”.

  2. One last comment on MMSL and the change… The original Male Action Plan and the Marriage action Plan had a series of phases to progress through, 1 through 7 I recall… with the last phases being setting your minimum requirements for a relationship and if they were not ultimately met, severing the relationship, divorce etc. and moving on with your life.

    The Mindful Attraction Plan eliminated that process…

    1. To me a huge part of the of the red pill is changing how I used to see something.

      It’s taking all my blue pill BS and dressing better and not talking as much. Listing with intent and purpose.
      It’s hard yet coming here keeps me relatively on track.

  3. @kfg

    “It seems I have no affinity for the Franco-British spelling of this word, even under the influence of the spell checker. There is no “ue” in “logos.”’

    Oddly enough, this is the part of the comment I empathize with the most.

  4. * Also raising hand *

    I was an MMSL ‘veteran’ but left on my own accord because I could no longer take the ‘pig piling’ I would get from linking and endorsing outside red pill thought, most especially Rollo.

    It’s particularly disappointing for me because I credit Athol with my initial unplugging and I tried to ‘carry it forward’ until I could stomach it no longer.

  5. “Tolkein shows a rare moment of insight into women in Fellowship of the Ring, when Galadrial briefly covets the Ring of power. “You will love and fear me”, or something like that.”

    Tolkien had a profound understanding of Medieval values, mythology, and the power that struggle has on the human spirit. But he did seriously pedestalize the pussy.

    Interestingly, he also de-emphasized it at the same time (not many chicks around when he writes lol) and shows some insight into how to properly deal with the female foible of trying to ape men’s power (Eowyn wanted desperately to gain masculine fame/power but ultimately found it empty; she ended up finding contentment in nurturing the land of a man who was demonstrably wiser than her. So I suppose Tolkien understood how hypergamy’s pull played into her wish for glory as well).

    Like a lot of men back then, I suspect he held a lot of bluepill idealism – since there were still incentives to make bluepill realities kinda sorta work out – combined with old-world patriarchalism that gave him intuitive insights foreign to the modern bluepill man.

  6. Also, don’t want to make this a nerdfest, but the Galadriel thing was actually the culmination of a long history of her struggle for power. She found redemption by refusing it when openly offered.

    You can see an interesting contrast in how men and women seek power by contrasting her with Feanor, who sought power in order to do things rather than ‘all will love me and despair.’

  7. “All will love me, and despair”, that’s the line I was recalling. Keen insight into what women will do with power.

    Not to get all GBFM, but there are things to be learned in great literature.
    Madame Bovary, Anna Karenina and so forth all contain truth about women for those who pay attention.

  8. @Sentient January 25th, 2016 at 10:40 am

    @Rollo

    OK, officially I didn’t know all that shit about revisions and different versions……. and the forum stuff.

    Umm…. Sorry…..(no question mark.)…You guys. I’ll shut up about that Athol now. And try not to bring it up again, Kay?

    No idea which version I read a couple years ago in a couple hours and took it for what it was worth for me at the time.

    And I should probably pass on mentioning Andy’s last sentence (quote from wife) sounds like indifference rather than admiration and respect because it would make me look like I was dogging him and I don’t want to be more annoying than I already am.

    1. @SJF, FWIW I used to send a lot of married guys over to MMSL when it was all about the Primer and I was welcome to bounce ideas off of AK. Not so anymore. I’m too dangerous to him.

      About 5 years ago he had a good message and his readers would find me through him and vice versa, but now MMSL is a textbook example of what I describe as being the dangers of ‘overseers in the locker room’ with regard to Male Space:

      http://therationalmale.com/2014/06/03/male-space/

      Overseers in the Locker Room

      The second purpose in the goal of female inclusion into male space is really a policing of the thought dynamics and attitudes of the men in that space. When women are allowed access to the locker room the dynamic of the locker room changes. The locker room can take many different shapes: the workplace environment, the sports team, the group of all-male coders, the primarily male scientific community, the ‘boys club’, the group of gamer nerds at the local game store, even strip clubs and the sanctuary you think your ‘man cave’ is – the context is one of women inserting themselves into male space in order to enforce the dictates of feminine social primacy.

      When the influence of feminine-primacy is introduced into social settings made up mainly by men and male-interests, the dynamics and purpose of that group changes. The purpose becomes less about the endeavor itself and more about adherence to the feminine-inclusionary aspect of that endeavor. It starts to become less about being the best or most passionate at what they do, and more about being acceptable to the influence of the Feminine Imperative while attempting maintaining the former level of interest in the endeavor.

      Men unaccustomed to having women in their midst generally react in two ways; According to their proper feminized conditioning, they embrace the opportunity to impress these ‘trailblazing’ women (hoping to be found worthy of intimacy) with their enthusiastic acceptance of, and identification with, their feminine overseer(s), or they become easy foils of an “out moded” way of thinking that the new ‘in-group’ happily labels them with.

      Once the feminine-primary in-group dynamic is established a ‘feminine correct’ social frame follows. This feminine correction restructures the priorities of goals, and validates any accomplishments, in terms of how they reflect upon the feminine as a whole. Thus any in-group success is perceived as a feminine success in male space, while in-group failures or simple mediocrity is either dismissed entirely or blamed on out-group men’s failure to comply with, or the rejection of, the Feminine Imperative’s ‘correcting’ influence on the in-group.

      MMSL has been ‘corrected’ by the feminine due to Athol’s financial necessity of including his wife’s and many other women he’s petitioned to take control of his messaging’s influence.

  9. Got it. And I’ll stop mentioning it as soon as my extinction burst settle down.

    But I hope I didn’t piss you off so much that you are now converting to Pacific Standard Time.

  10. Rollo, Sentient, thanks. That’s really interesting. So basically because of the financial pressures Rollo mentions, MMSL “shaved off” the last 20% harder edges of the original action plan in order to make it more palatable to women and not give too much power to guys.

  11. This is kinda a FR, though I wasn’t trying to ‘game’ the circumstance in particular. Just struck me bc I didn’t know how to interpret it afterwards, and I’m trying to understand group dynamics better.

    This happened at work. I work with a lot of cute 20-somethings; I use them to practice light banter/flirting but don’t usually go past that. I work in orthopedics and sometimes give friends/co-workers informal advice about say mild joint issues and shit that they don’t want to bother a doctor with.

    One of them complains to me of a sore shoulder. She’s been shit testing me a bit lately, might have been beta bait. Or else she likes my strong, clever hands 😉 Anyways I do my usual where I feel around the area a bit, do some motion tests, and another girl is suddenly there standing close to me tossing her neck back and forth, stretching, and talking about how she used to get medical massages from a guy she knows and shit. I use it as an excuse to kino a bit cause she’s cute, then the first girl tries to get me to focus on her again, then a third girl shows up who coincidentally had neck pain that day. Lol. Girl #2 started joking about it all – “No, Forge! Heal ME! ME!’ So I just kinda jumped from one to the other as they got my attention over time. It’s all kinda cash since it gives a totally plausible excuse to tease a girl about some bad posture she has or something while staring dead in her eyes, 8 inches away, with your hand around her throat.

    So far so fine. What I was struck with then, though, I’m not quite sure what to make of. I’d been somewhat directing the convo until then. Then they started having a girly banter conversation between the three of them, the sort of thing I didn’t have much to add to. They acknowledged things I said but didn’t run with them. Just kept on with stuff like about how much do you exercise, oh I can’t do this since I had this injury, I have a friend who still does though, oh how often do you see her….I just faded from the center of focus. Eventually as it was all breaking up the first girl says she wants to make an appt with me to work on her more, but she doesn’t. Could have been logistics, could have been that it was just an emotion-of-the-minute thing, whatever.

    I’m sure I’m missing some chick subcomm thing here. I’m getting pretty good at interpreting interest/disinterest subcomms but I know there’s a lot more going on than that. If forced to guess, looking back I’d say they were competing with each other – trying to one-up each other’s stories, being super empathetic towards each other to ‘out-nice’ each other, etc.

    Maybe I just need to open more big sets, but I’m not sure if I dropped the ball here and lost their interest, or if this might have been a bit of a catfight under the surface, or if they were trying to DHV in front of me, or what. Cause if I were trying for a pull here that would greatly change the way I react to it.

  12. PS – It occurs to me also that in addition to the above, “enlisting the wife’s approval in the husband’s transformation plan” could destroy the foundation of the process entirely because if he needs his wife to tell him/help him on this path, then he is no longer a guy who “Just Gets It”

  13. @Forge the Sky

    sounds like they started to have competition anxiety (you had pre-selection) and they were competing for your attention, then the girls teamed up and got you reacting to them = beta…instead of ignoring their pleas for help…

    “Girl #2 started joking about it all – “No, Forge! Heal ME! ME!’ So I just kinda jumped from one to the other as they got my attention over time. ”

    and here’s the result…

    “I just faded from the center of focus. ”

    ie you fell into their frame…how’s that shiny armor feeling right about now…lol

    girls are tricky…lol…that last girl threw out that last piece of beta bait re the appt, before they left…probably just to make sure/close out the interaction…and keep you on the hook as potential beta provider…

    good luck!

  14. Oh, also, here’s an IOI I’ve not heard mentioned before. It’s a bit situational, and therefore unusual; I’m going off an N of 3 here so grains of salt all around, though I think it’s pretty solid.

    She does it like this – she clasps her hands behind her back, then lifts them up while pushing out her chest as she breathes in. The conceit is that she’s stretching her shoulder/chest muscles and just so happens to be standing in profile about 8 feet in front of you.

    They do this when you got them attracted somehow, and then have started to ignore them a bit.

    Girls don’t do that shit by accident. Maybe very rarely lol. You can usually tell bc they’ll look self-conscious afterwards if it was by accident, whereas when they’re showing off to you they always maintain an attitude of perfect obliviousness. Also, I’ve not seen anyone stretch in that particular way in any other context.

    A great neg – once when a girl did this to me, I imitated her. I was wearing a fairly tight snap-down shirt, and the top button popped open dramatically as I did. Her jaw dropped, then she turned around and cast me a resentful look. You could practically see the thought – ‘are you saying I have small boobs?’ lol

    On a related note, I didn’t used to get this in the same way. I worked outside for a few years, with a mixed group of guys and girls. Was riding in a truck with a girl and the bouncing made her top fall lower and lower until it was quite indecent; she just stared off into space, apparently perfectly oblivious. She followed me to a bar shortly after that, started ‘helping’ me in my private projects at the job (practically panting at times) and invited me to her house by myself. And then another girl would work across a from me wearing nothing but a baggy T-shirt which displayed her entire naked torso through the neckline when she leaned forward. I remember being like, “Doesn’t she realize?” then she’s fucking me in the herb garden a week later, never mind it’s so cold the frost is forming on the grass.

    Heh.

  15. @Forge

    If you were to change the set to me and my wife instead of you and the three girls, that is precisely the same as I mentioned over the weekend as my wife “keeping frame”. It’s just what they do unconsciously. Keeping frame is their default. And lately the more I keep good frame myself these days the more she tries harder to keep hers (extinction burst).

    Yep. Frame is not power example.

    I’m stoic about it, though. Just means we need better game.

  16. “Any value MMSL had in the past is at best a means to draw men back into a feminine approved Purple Pill mindset now. Quite honestly I think it’s potentially damaging to men, but the good news is most of the guys I hear from who were forum regulars are abandoning it because it’s become a male space that’s been assimilated by the feminine and they get banned or find it useless now.”

    This^^^^^
    I started there in the first of 2013, it’s gone along way downhill since then. there used to be some RP Jedi masters on the forums but no longer. It has become fully “sanitized”, gelded, call it what you will it has the distinct wiff of estrogen all the time. There is no more locker room talk really. If I talked the way I do here overt there, I would get moderated into the dustbin.

    The Primer was a good book, everything else is shite.

  17. @habd

    Thanks, it’s all s lot more obvious typed out. Wasn’t falling into their frame as badly as I made out – made them qualify a bit for my attention – but like you say they took over.

    Crazy how you little it takes to lose frame lol. It’s all in the tiny things, things a reformed nice guy like me can hardly imagine changing at times. Which of course is the point.

    But ya, three interested girls just back down to zero (not overall they still like me, but in that moment) just cause I started reacting to them.

    This is why this stuff at work is of some value – can’t escalate anything but I can observe and learn without ego getting in the way bc I wasn’t trying to pull in the first place, I don’t care if they see me as beta or whatever that’s just another learning experience.

    Anyways girl 1 did actually make an appt I now see, so she wasn’t totally baiting me lol.

  18. @sjf

    Yeah, I’ve been writing a lot about frame lately because that’s something I’m really working on. It’s a subtle thing. Understanding it is the first step in learning how to utilize it.

  19. @Culum

    “PS – It occurs to me also that in addition to the above, “enlisting the wife’s approval in the husband’s transformation plan” could destroy the foundation of the process entirely because if he needs his wife to tell him/help him on this path, then he is no longer a guy who “Just Gets It” ”

    This is exactly why I don’t want my wife to know that I’m reading any kind of relationship improvement shit.

  20. YaReally HABD Sentient Forge GW et al

    Right, big Sunday 3 FRs coming up (yeah, Sunday was a busy day..I’m taking tonight off because another 23 year old flaked, and then I have a couple more dates scheduled tomorrow..although statistically at least one will flake).

    Sentient – yeah, point taken about subconsciously scheduling dates in a way that I know I can’t pull.

    Sunday date 1: 23 year old blonde HB7 from a sugar daddy site
    ————————————————————————-

    Don’t worry guys – I haven’t gone back to sugar sites. I was texting some 30-40 numbers in several cities when I stopped a couple months or so ago and some of them occasionally go active or are receptive to a meet up.

    She told me (online before we met) that she wanted to “take the physical side of things slow” and I told her “I’m not looking for an escort, but I don’t set time scales and negotiate intimacy either..I go by what I feel”. She was cool with that.

    Date was fine (also at upscale downtown bar but in jeans/t-shirt as was Sunday). Some genuine attraction and chemistry but not as much as the redhead from my previous FR. She is studying psychology and it was amusing to see her attempts to “read” me. She kept saying many times that I “don’t give much away” and come across as “powerful and driven and relaxed and know what I want but I may not even be aware I’m doing it”.

    The conversation was less important than the fact that once again I managed to get more practice at lasering+voice tonality. I’m still having to do it consciously, but I’ve started to do it more consistently and see results. I also made her laugh a LOT. And I stayed on the other side of the couch from her most of the time and did some push/pull. Overall I did pretty much what I did with the previous girl and had similar results, but with (say) 10-20% less attraction. Oh and I did pretty well too in sitting back with an amused smile and letting her babble on while lasering her..just enjoying her feminine energy. That was fun.

    She came across really naive early on, talking about her college major and career options and stuff with a really good girl vibe. Then I did my usual thing of sexualising the conversation and staying non-judgmental and a lot more came out about how she’s met a lot of guys off sugar sites for money (she never asked me for money – she knows I don’t pay) and exactly what principles she adheres to while meeting them (safe sex etc)..

    I kept teasing her and telling her not to use euphemisms..because while she was telling me all this stuff, she was still trying to be coy and not be explicit like saying she gets “benefits” from the men and has to take “precautions with her health” and I was just LOLling at this. It was really interesting just how coldly and analytically she’s planned everything out. I never felt I totally broke through that rational part and hit her emotions fully (although she clearly enjoyed my company, laughed a lot and had a decent amount of real attraction). Oh and I was REALLY surprised when she said I was the *youngest* guy she’d met on the sugar site and most of the men were quite a bit older (I’m 36!). I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or bad thing for me..

    She asked me lots of questions about the women I met on the site and I made it clear I just use it to meet women to date casually.

    No resistance to kino escalation. When I switched from sitting far away on the couch to pulling her in to me, she came with no resistance. She was just recovering from a cold and was still coughing a bit so she was a bit reluctant to kiss but she was perfectly willing to do so first time out. But I could tell she wasn’t totally into it either.

    (Incidentally, pulling a girl in to you to cuddle up to you is one of the STRONGEST predictors of how well the date is going that I have seen..if she comes in willingly to that level of intimacy and submission..the kiss is virtually in the bag – I used to try and do this very early but now I think it works better if I just laser/tease/sexual innuendo early on and then try to pull them in shortly before kiss – it lets attraction build and is a better compliance test)

    Easy sexualization..stroking her ass, she leaned over and I saw her thong and told her I liked her underwear..all fine.

    Walking back to cars..did the thing where I point to a lamp post or shopfront ahead and say “When we get there I’m going to kiss you properly” – worked fine, but again she wasn’t quite as much into it as the previous date girl. Didn’t hold hands or take my arm walking back like what happens usually.

    Reached her car – normally I’d give the girl a good bye kiss or occasionally she will come in for one, but I wanted to try not doing it..and she didn’t come in for it or even make a movement in that direction. So that’s not good.

    Was an interesting experience and just for fun I will try to see if she’ll come straight over to my place next time, but I doubt it.

    CHARACTER: High Self Esteem Materialista – possibly some Adventuress blended in as well. Reasons for Materialista obvious..HSE because she’s had a strong family (despite losing mother early) and has clear strong views and plans about her plans in life and where she’s going.

    Sunday Date 2: 31 year old HB5-5.5 Fat Chick From Tinder

    I know, I know, I shouldn’t dumpster dive. But even though I’m Thrill of the Hunt, I haven’t had sex for a while and need the release. The fat chick from Tinder was chasing me for several days so when I realised I clearly couldn’t pull the 23 year old from above, I decided to go meet her on a whim, and she was (no surprise) available to meet at my convenience the same evening.

    But…DISASTER. The only thing worse than meeting a fat HB5 with perfect logistics: meeting a fat HB5 with perfect logistics and NOT banging her.

    Except for like the first 5-10 minutes where there was a bit of a vibe, there was simply no energy or vibe the rest of the time. I did everything I did in the previous two dates (and again..good practice with lasering and sexual topics etc). Not a lot of feminine energy coming off her. I never got through to her emotionally – even my best stories

    She wasn’t particularly interesting to talk to either, purely as a conversationalist (not that there were long silences..just not very interesting conversationally) and I must admit I spent a lot of time looking at her sideburns thinking that she had more facial hair than me FFS, and thinking “Am I really reduced to this?”. I guess my subcomms probably betrayed that on some level.

    She spoke quite openly to me about how she broke up with serious BF two months ago and is just doing a lot of dating and having fun and how (she didn’t use the phrase) she has several beta orbiters and they want to take her out on holidays and stuff and how she has a couple of friend zoned guys she’d LIKE to date but she just has no “spark” and also she mentioned how she disqualified a couple of guys off Tinder because they were out of her league (career, status, good looks..varied reasons). She also talked about how she was totally up for casual sex but on her terms and with the guys she wanted..

    Seriously guys – I don’t really do the manosphere “resentment of women” thing (I love women and appreciate how different they are to us), but if a boring, fat, unemployed HB5 with no personality or charm can have beta orbiters and be friend zoning guys..it’s like I can see where some guys resentment comes from.

    Unsurprisingly, she didn’t come in to cuddle to me about an hour in (when I tried to pull her to me) saying “I don’t like to be touched by people I don’t know” (obvious shit test)..and a bit later, she said she needed to go (which wasn’t a surprise to me by that point).

    I was left feeling bemused and somehow a bit embarrassed..not because I failed to pull her but because I’d gone down to that level. When I’ve slept with way hotter girls and consistently get IOIs from real hotties.

    She’s already unmatched me on Tinder and deleted me from WhatsApp – that was fast work!

    I’m not entirely sure what happened on this date. Did she disqualify me even from casual sex (despite her total willingness to indulge) because I wasn’t alpha *enough*? Or did she pre-emptively disqualify me, because I was out of her league and I didn’t do enough to qualify her and she sensed my subcomms disappointment with her? But if it was the latter why did she pursue me so hard before we met?

    CHARACTER ASSESS: Low Self Esteem (not only was she fat, she also told me some stories about how she’d been asked about her weight by Tinder guys etc)..but not clear to me where she falls on the rest. Don’t think she’s a Materialista. Maybe a Good Girl with some Adventuress?

    PS – Speaking of Tinder, I’ve only been experimenting with it in the last couple of months but I turned 36 recently and I’ve found that I’ve suddenly started getting quite a few more matches (1-3 per day instead of *maybe* 1 before). But they mostly tend to be less attractive post-Wall chicks..something about the algorithm has obviously changed when I turned 36..showing me to older chicks I think.

    Sunday FR 3: Latin dance club
    —————-

    So, because Tinder Fat Chick Date ended so early, I decided to swing over to the Latin dance club where I like to go when I’m alone, because it’s a good environment to be solo and it’s busy even on off-days because they have dance classes. I only stayed for one beer and did a couple of approaches. Nothing much to report except I never fully got into state, but it’s getting easier to go in to that particular bar solo and feel “comfortable”. I need to start getting to know the staff and get the bar on lockdown…and go more regularly.

  21. I fully expect this to get buried in the hundreds of comments but one thing that may help our friend is a perspective I try to foster – Love them enough to act like you don’t. Understand that what they need is not what you need. Make what you provide what they need and not what you want to give them.

    I recently got in an argument with my LTR gf. She wanted me to apologize for hurting her feelings, I refused. It caused the whole thing to drag out longer but she came back. She saw that I was an unyielding mountain in the face of her storm and when the storm dissipates the mountain remains. I gave her just what she wanted, just what she needed.

  22. @Forge – just saw your mini FR.

    Was going to post exactly what HABD said but he beat me to it.

    What if you had done the same thing but gone a bit slower, at your pace instead of “rushing” between them? What if you had directed the action and the conversation and remained the center of focus?

    By teasing them, qualifying them and amping up the competition angle jokingly? Preferably with some sexual innuendo and strong EC/sexual voice tonality..

    I am thinking of stuff like:

    “Now, now girls..form an orderly line..there’s only one of me and I only have two hands..although some have told me I have a third leg..” [with a cheeky grin]

    “A threesome’s one thing..but now you girls want me to be the only man in a foursome?? You’re insatiable..” [cheeky grin..]

    How about tossing in some compliance tests/dominance in the mix?

    [While massaging Girl 1]: “Girl 2..go and make me a cup of coffee while you wait your turn..these magic hands don’t fuel themselves you know..Girl 3..come here and hold Girl 1’s neck like this while I work….[30 secs later]..I bet you girls didn’t expect to be holding each other so up close and personal when you came to work today..” [all about the sexual innuendo in your tonality..]

    Now some of this stuff may not work in the practicalities of you workplace or you may not want to push things so sexual in that environment..but you get the idea of the kind of direction you want to go?

    (Thanks to Sentient btw – reading the dialog in your FRs has really helped me in starting to come up sexual innuendo and jokes on the fly)

    PS – how old are you Forge? It’s just useful to calibrate your FRs..

    PPS – Shit testing you and liking your strong hands isn’t mutually exclusive – enjoying your hands LEADS to the shit testing.

    1. Love the FRs guys, even the desperation attempt with the fat chick. This is a fantastic thread. Someone could provide tremendous value by simply gathering the cream from this thread into some Cliff Notes.

  23. Tiberius: Not lost – I read it 🙂

    I agree, but one question: do you see or apply a distinction between *refusing* to apologize and simply not apologizing?

    Like was it your gf saying “I’m hurt..you should apologize” and you saying “No. I did nothing wrong”. Or was it more like her being hurt and crying and trying to beta bait you into an apology?

    Personally I’m a fan of sincere apologies in an LTR if you genuinely have messed up. Rarely given, only if YOU believe you messed up (not because she’s hurt or crying), and given sincerely with no defensiveness or attempt to rationalize your actions..but given ONCE and ONCE only. No grovelling. She needs to know your apologies are like diamonds..rare and valuable.

  24. @Culum

    “PS – I think you were going to do a writeup a while ago about turning your marriage around..I think that would be really interesting to read.”

    lol…ya, maybe when my life gets less busy…i feel stressed enough for time just reminding you that CH had a whole post on beta baiting…

    good luck!

  25. @Dutch

    “This is exactly why I don’t want my wife to know that I’m reading any kind of relationship improvement shit.”

    Imagine I was a guy friend of yours in real life. One that you trusted to be looking out for your interests. And I was red pill. I would push you to not walk on eggshells and say something like that. To own your shit and be self confident that as a man you are working on being better at being a masculine male. Not afraid of her knowing that you are reading any kind of improvement shit–no matter what it is. What? does she have you in a box? You’re not allowed to improve yourself?

    My wife knows I’ve been working on relationship improvement stuff for the last 2 1/2 years. And yes she shit tests me. “I don’t think you’ve improved at all”. I smirk and say “Oh, Really?”. Truth be told the subcom. is that she is pissed I foiled her plans to ditch me two years ago. I’m 10 times the guy I was back then in terms of red pill awareness and game and agency. I’m proud of my frame and my “hand”. She still doesn’t want to give up her dominance and is still not pulled into my frame. I’m working on it with low downside and high upside. It is working for me. And she’s “stuck with me”.

    If she catches you reading and posting on TRM or reading self improvement books and why you are spending so much time on your phone or wants to monitor your conversations with other guys. When she asks what you are doing so much while ignoring her, the correct answer is “Porn!” delivered with an amused mastery smirk.

    See my wife spends a lot of time with other socialite girls talks, texts and phones and has drinks with them, she watches her shows. She does her things. Her socializing out (as an extrovert) is “better than” my doing my things in (as an introvert). Do you think for a second I would tell her how and when to do these things.

    What, next is she going to monitor my farming, my flail mowing, my chainsawing, my hanging out with rural neighbors at the fire pit, how I harvest and process venison, my reading, my typing, my hanging out with my red pill buddy at the cigar lounge, my exercise routine?

    See what I’m saying?

    Back to me being your imaginary IRL friend. I’m not trying to push you. I just aim to challenge your mediocrity.:

    Your close men friends should be willing to challenge your mediocrity by suggesting a concrete action you can perform that will pop you out of your rut, one way or the other. And you must be willing to offer them your brutal honesty, in the same way, if you are all to grow. Good friends should not tolerate mediocrity in one another. If you are at your edge, your men friends should respect that, but not let you off the hook. They should honor your fears, and, in love guy talk, continue to goad you beyond them, without pushing you.

  26. My take on “marriage game” is that it would not have worked for me. The ex was going to divorce whoever she married, then leave them for the guy she is now with. I was just the chump that got stuck, it never mattered who I was or what I did. Believe it or not, but I was there.

    So I am pushing back here on LTR game. My experience.

    There does seem to be a lot of emphasis here on AWALT, no quality women. I won’t disagree that the market is not that great right now, I have seen it. Based on my marriage experience I am not a big believer that my “game” is going to influence the women I am with. I do what I can, make my best moves. I’m screwing one now, she has been kind of easy to handle so far which I like. Basically let another fall by the wayside because she just seemed like too much trouble. And she was one of the better ones! But I have one decent one right now, though it likely won’t last because of distance.

    Another thing on particulars of individual women. I have a couple of daughters by my ex. One of them has the same personality as my ex. Very similar in many ways. This is a five year old. So I don’t think she’s being influenced by me or the ex or anyone else. It’s her inherited personality traits. Have another daughter that doesn’t have those traits at all.

    Some guys here seem to favor set routines or look for set behaviors. Not something I’ve been able to use so far.

    I just think in 2016 it’s hard for me to feel I’m going to game these women long term. Easier to just kind of work around them, do what works with each individual one. Why I don’t like to rely on set routines or assumptions. Some things have worked with my current screw, others have not. But they are all so caught up in their own emotions and “journey” I don’t want to raise my own expectations too much. I think it’s the fate of men today. Long term the women have so much control of society and commitment the default male strategy will to be on the fringes and get what he can when he can. Not patriarchy or male dominance in this society.

  27. Fyi: As you guys have heard from me in past, or not, my journey has taken me to a place where I don’t watch much television these days. (And my wife is pretty much addicted to it, you know the FI laden stuff). But there is nothing like a good drama that shows anti-hero masculine stuff. You know like Sons of Anarchy in the first three years before it jumped IDK what shark it jumped. And I was privy to watching Breaking Bad from it’s inception. A great story arc there, although it was painful not to see red pill and game redemption for W.W. He didn’t really win, but he tried.

    So anyway, there is a new series on Showtime called Billions. (I’m a paid subscriber, but also available you know how).

    Great acting and writing. Masculine–feminine polarity. Alpha demonstrations galore. Inter-sexual dynamics. Laws of Power in action. Game being played. Guys pushing to there edge. Mindset scenarios (Heh, with Maggie Siff too). Malin Akerman, bad tattoo and all. Two episodes so far. So far, it’s good.

  28. Dutchman

    This is exactly why I don’t want my wife to know that I’m reading any kind of relationship improvement shit.

    Yes. Because to explain the Red Pill is just pointless – demonstrate, don’t explicate. Show, don’t tell.

    Follow Tuco’s rule…

  29. @Culum

    Date 1 – ?????? where did you try to pull her? Did I miss that?

    “I… come across as powerful and driven and relaxed and know what I want ”

    Remember the young girl from your apartment – dominance? Remember most of what comes out of their mouth is projection? So here you had a girl, compliant and willing who is looking for a powerful, driven (older to boot) guy who knows what he wants and you lead her to what?

    She wants the fantasy, play into the fantasy Strong dominant alpha older guy…

    “She asked me lots of questions about the women I met on the site and I made it clear I just use it to meet women to date casually.”

    why would she ask so many questions? Because she wants to know a) who she is competing with and b) how she stacks up (Thin Man Pretty Princess)… You:Yeah I meet some amazing sexy young women.
    And later on throw in some compliment as a reward after she’s done some chasing…

    “Reached her car” – and? You: Nice car, come here (get in back seat) or have her take you somewhere. Remember she was looking for a driven guy who knows what he wants and she wants it to be her – the prettiest of the princesses…

    Good stuff here, you had this it seems but not sure why you didn’t try and pull?

    Date 3 – Tinderbeast

    ” I haven’t had sex for a while and need the release. The fat chick from Tinder was chasing me for several days so when I realized I clearly couldn’t pull the 23 year old from above, I decided to go meet her on a whim, and she was (no surprise) available to meet at my convenience the same evening.”

    Hmmmm… haven’t had sex for a while but isn’t pulling when he can. Bad feedback loop here Culum.

    Question – what’s as valuable to a girl as fucking a high status guy? Answer – rejecting a high status guy.

    Sinatra is to have said there where two kinds of women in the world – those who would tell their friends “I slept with Sinatra” and those that would tell their friends “I turned down Sinatra”… So lesson learned dumpster diving is a double edged sword, the shame of success leaves a residue… the rejection a mindfuck…

    Good stuff… keep grinding…

  30. @Forge the Sky

    “She does it like this – she clasps her hands behind her back, then lifts them up while pushing out her chest as she breathes in.”

    that’s straight up beta baiting…lol…can you think of a better way for a girl to get you ‘reacting’ to her?…lol

    “They do this when you got them attracted somehow, and then have started to ignore them a bit.”

    no, this is a standard shit test/beta baiting…your ignoring them is the trigger, but it’s bc you stopped ‘reacting’ to them (before they ‘let you go’…ie not on her schedule…), not that they are ‘attracted.’ (although that’s part of you passing shit tests…lol)

    “Girls don’t do that shit by accident.”

    no, but it’s most unconscious…lol

    “You can usually tell bc they’ll look self-conscious afterwards if it was by accident,”

    this is where they realize what they are doing on a conscious level…lol

    “A great neg – once when a girl did this to me, I imitated her. I was wearing a fairly tight snap-down shirt, and the top button popped open dramatically as I did. Her jaw dropped, then she turned around and cast me a resentful look. You could practically see the thought – ‘are you saying I have small boobs?’ lol”

    no, not a ‘neg’…negs are proactive…this girl was shit testing/beta baiting you…your ‘response’ was not ‘reactive’ (even if it was unconscious on your part…lol) it was a form of ‘agree and amplify’ = you passed that shit test…lol…

    then, she ‘cast a resentful look’ = the next shit test in her rolodex…lol…her thought wasn’t about her small boobs…and chances were good that if you passed THAT shit test, she would have escalated to a verbal shit test…lol

    good luck!

  31. @Andy
    January 26th, 2016 at 5:25 am

    Hey, thanks for those comments from YaReally.

    “if after you’ve done that, you still hate interacting with people, then you can tell me you’re an introvert.”

    An INTJ pushing himself outside of his comfort zone and learning not to take himself seriously? lol”

    YaReally is a smart mother-fucker. Those are words of wisdom. I believe them now and I live them.

    Truth is five years ago, I couldn’t see it that way from ego-investments. I would get angry at having to socialize. Pretty much now after better mastery of Game I do enjoy socializing. It’s fun, its a game, its sport. Still doesn’t mean that I would be reckless with my nature and be 100% all in with socializing. 70/30 maybe.

    Thanks Andy, you boosted my INTJ ego.

  32. @ Sentient

    i think he still has issues wrt that FRA…that’s why he’s not pulling…(but i could be wrong about that..)(that and the good girl/bad girl thing…lol) i don’t know if he’s pulled a girl since that episode… but i think that’s actually a normal reaction to that kind of shit…

    @Culum

    props on putting in the work…and posting those FRs…i can tell you are actually getting better (even if it doesn’t seem like it right now)…lol

    ok, dude…now that that’s out of the way [rolls up sleeves…]…lol

    besides that residual FRA stuff as a potential issue, i still see that good girl/bad girl split on your interactions. but not in the way that it seems on the surface (ie M/W issues…)…but instead straight up FI…

    good girl = ‘worthy’ of resource investment = potential LTR = wife material = get to know her = no push for SDL/SNL
    bad girl = pump and dump (for whatever reason, including fatty…) = not worthy of investment = push? for SNL…

    = self-limiting belief = NAWALT…

    the only way to handle this is to push for snl on a good girl…lol…

    i will just point out that hb5 was 31yo = looking to settle…

    AND you could have probably still gotten her interested, but you didn’t seem to calibrate down to her level. so, you could be ‘attainable’…(although those ‘i’m slumming’ subcomms didn’t help you any…lol) also, if you passed her shit tests, she wouldn’t consider you for even casual sex bc then she might get hooked (alpha widow) and that would interfere with her provider search (that casual sex idea was the beta bait she was using to get a provider interested…lol)

    advice – find the goodest good girl you can. then push for SNL…(with great logistics)…you know, pretend that you actually DO want to bang her…lol…get back on that horse…

    good luck!

  33. @HABD, Culum et al

    Mini FR follow up to a short one a few posts ago on CH. So I was with a client and we met these 2 late 30’s women and another dude in my hotel and we bounced to another bar. I was gaming a hot young 8 nightlife girl (bartender or waitress off duty). It was very late. She was at the juke box looking at selections. I came up behind her and said “oh no….” she turned around looking at me with ??? on her face. I said “you’re not going to put on some shit music now are you?”… she starts laughing and promises it will be good. I tell her I’ll hold her accountable. She goes and sits at bar, I put my selection in and come sit with her. We have a good chat, but my client is there talking with the 2 older girls, so I don’t push things. She eventually has some friends show up and moves over by them, after like 15 minutes…

    So I turn back to my group and client has left. So I sit next to one of the women, just a 6 while the other one (6.5 former 7
    5) talks with the dude we bounced over with. Continue with a little banter and then make out with her (the bit on CH). And then I get thrown out by the female bartender who apparently has some kind of crush on me or something LOL. So I end up leaving alone.

    BTW Culum – good line I used on the prettier of the two, she says “you look familiar” I said “Probably… you watch a lot of porn?” She starts laughing and arm punching “hahaha Noooo!!!” and I say “well I thought I saw you as well is what I meant, that whole MILFY thing…” will use this again.

    The next night I come back from a night out and swing by the lobby, as is always my practice. They are closing up, last call made. But the two women are sitting there… LOL. So they see me and I go over and am just neutral with the 6. she is saying my name over and over, making kind of a big deal that she remembers it. She asks me if I remember her name (no lol) and I say “Sure… Penelope” and move on with the conversation. So the bar is closing up I say let’s move out to lobby. We go and sit on lobby couch. After a few more minutes of chit chat I take her hand and some come here… we walk back by the elevator, secluded alcove and push her against the wall and make out some more. Hit the button to go up. she freezes… Says nooo I left my bag and everything with my friend. I Say so what leave it. She says hold on and goes around the corner back to her friend.

    They both come back together and she says “we will walk you to your room so you get back safe”… hahaha and I think of HABD “Threesome” and so say OK. We get in go up to the room. Outside the door, I take the 6.5 hand and pull her in to kiss her “and she goes nonono and wriggles free… I’m not here for that. So I open the door and 6 comes in with me, while 6.5 says she is waiting in the hall… so massive cockblock lol. I take 6 and lift her against the wall and we make out some more a bit and she is grinding on me and then she’s like “i just think you’re horny” and “You’re married aren’t you” and that stuff so I just smile and disengage, give a good night peck and they both walk off down the hall…

  34. @Sentient

    nice FR…props on going out and practicing…

    ” So they see me and I go over and am just neutral with the 6.”

    so, was she your target?…(not that it really matters for milfy girls…lol)

    “They both come back together and she says “we will walk you to your room so you get back safe”… hahaha and I think of HABD “Threesome” and so say OK.”

    lol…if you were really going to go for this, NOW is the time to set it up…(assume the sale and acknowledge their hindbrains’s interest/intent (which actually IS a threesome, even if you didn’t see it in real time)…lol…and it’s also the time to starting ramping pre-selection/competition anxiety…) (although, at this point, the girls were all in, and all you had to do was not f’k it up…lol)

    you: ok, but it’s been a month or so, so you’ll have to flip a coin… (ya, i know, doesn’t make sense…but how’s that for some ambiguity…lol)

    them: (ignore whatever they say, but watch the attraction spike…lol)

    you: lol

    “We get in go up to the room. Outside the door, I take the 6.5 hand and pull her in to kiss her “and she goes nonono and wriggles free… I’m not here for that.”

    you SHOULD have started with hb6 = competition anxiety…and it was a shit test…

    ” So I open the door and 6 comes in with me, while 6.5 says she is waiting in the hall… so massive cockblock lol.”

    nope…shit test (likely bc you ‘started’ with her, so of the two, you are ‘chasing’ her more)…THEY were isolated with you…in a sexually charged interaction…do the math = 1 + 2 = threesome…lol

    ” I take 6 and lift her against the wall and we make out some more a bit and she is grinding on me and then she’s like “i just think you’re horny” and “You’re married aren’t you” and that stuff so I just smile and disengage, give a good night peck and they both walk off down the hall…”

    and you know those were just shit tests, right?…lol

    then, you dig a coin out of your pocket and call hb6.5 in to flip it…lol…

    good luck!

  35. “you SHOULD have started with hb6 = competition anxiety…and it was a shit test…”

    So money, as always HABD

  36. @SJF

    I get what you’re saying dude. I mean, obviously Rollo’s wife knows he writes this blog and I’m sure he faced some shit tests about it and handled them like a pro. I just don’t necessarily want to face those same shit tests until I’m sure I can bat them aside.

  37. I had occasion to compliment the wife yesterday after she spent the day cleaning the fuck out of the kids’ rooms.

    Me: Good job on their rooms, they look great.

    Her: Yeah, I never want them to go back in there again.

  38. @Dutchman

    “I had occasion to compliment the wife yesterday after she spent the day cleaning the fuck out of the kids’ rooms.

    Me: Good job on their rooms, they look great.

    Her: Yeah, I never want them to go back in there again.”

    do you see how she didn’t ‘accept’ your compliment?…

  39. HABD, no, I really wasn’t sure how to interpret it. If she accepted it, would she just have said “Thank you! I put a lot of effort into it and I’m glad it’s finally done!” or something?

    1. @Dutchman, How about calmly saying your version of, “Good start on getting the house in order today. Keep it up.”, followed by walking away and maintaining calmness no matter how she reacts.
      This sets your expectations high while rewarding with partial approval.

  40. @Dutchman

    “If she accepted it, would she just have said “Thank you! I put a lot of effort into it and I’m glad it’s finally done!” or something?”

    yes, she would have just said ‘thank you.’ (with no qualifying language…) bc then she’s agreeing to accept the compliment, which is in YOUR frame…meaning the compliment was important to her (and by extension, she values your approval).

    her response was totally in her frame = me…me…me…lol…

    “Yeah, I never want them to go back in there again.”

    bc then SHE would have to be put out cleaning again…lol…

    i just wanted to point out that you sort of ‘drew the foul’ on that one…

    “Me: Good job on their rooms, they look great.”

    this is sort of a non-ownership statement…

    now, I know what you meant…and by the basic rules of language construction the “I” is sort of implied bc you are the one talking…BUT, given the hole you are in, you are going to have to get much more precise in your statements…

    Me: (((I))) think you did a good job on their rooms. (((I))) think they look great.

    (not sure how to emphasis that “I” as much as it should be over the interwebs…

    Her: Yeah, I never want them to go back in there again.

    Me: (((I))) appreciate it whenever you keep the house looking nice for me.

    (if you can stare her down, now would be a good time to do it (don’t forget to smirk…lol)…otherwise, just walk away…(bc YOU are done interacting with her…))

    (you’ll get a shit test on this…lol…bc you are setting the frame that any time she cleans the house it’s “for you”…lol…but such is the nature of reframing…)

    take ownership of that frame and see what happens…

    good luck!

  41. Sentient – that’s a good FR. It’s interesting just how close and yet so far these threesome scenarios can be (I haven’t had one yet, but it’ll happen one day).

    HABD nailed it of course but a couple of thoughts I had

    -You don’t say much about how your vibe was with the 6.5? Like obviously the 6 was into you, but I assume you must have had enough attraction with the 6.5 to think kissing her (much less a threesome) was a serious possibility?

    -Why didn’t you try to manage the logistics? For eg, invite both into your room for a night cap? Or do a “conspiracy theory” thing with the 6 and tell her to go and ditch her friend and come back in ten mins etc (that would have probably been a hail mary but at least worth trying surely?).

    -One interpretation of both of them walking you back is the threesome desire..the other is that the 6.5 was literally coming to be the chaperone to prevent the 6 from losing control and jumping you (but if that was the case why did they offer to come to your room AT ALL? Surely safer to say goodbye in the lobby?). And if that was the case why did the 6.5 let you take the 6 into your room, even if she stood in the hallway as a partial cockblock?

    -In fact why not just proceed to bang the 6 with the 6.5 outside? I mean she can leave if she wants to but why did YOU disengage after you had her isolated?

  42. Sounds like pulling a threesome in that situ would take serious frame and bustamove – HABD is just like ‘just pull her into the room too dude’ and I see how this goes, you need to create a reality so firm that they just follow along and then wonder how the fuck they did and enjoyed something so far out of what they expected to happen.

    But I think you really need to build up reference experiences gradually before such things become possible. If you’re not on cocaine or something at least lol.

    See, until relatively recently I was at a stage where just grabbing a girl on the dance floor and dancing with her was unimaginable, now I can do that no issue once I warm up. But I’d still balk at pulling a girl into my room in front of her friend and just going at her. Just like Sentient still balks at just pulling her protesting friend in and seeing if it’s just a shit test.

    Build up, build up, the only way is to do.

    @Culum re: the 3 FR’s – I don’t have much technical advice to add, I’m way behind these other dudes lol. But I just notice that your success seems to be really linked to your enthusiasm for the date. Your bad dates come across as blasé and your good ones as ‘she was pretty cool’ and your excellent ones as passionate. Of course part of that is just a natural outpouring of a positive memory, but I think part of it is ego investments about what the girl ‘should’ be like so that you sometimes have difficulty really appreciating her for what she’s offering. That comes across in subcomms of course, and she pulls back if she thinks you don’t like her.

  43. HABD, Sentient, thanks for the comments.

    HABD – I was just about to post indignantly that I don’t have an M/W complex (and I don’t) but I take your point about the subtler issue. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, but you’re essentially saying that if I view a girl as “girlfriend worthy” then I slow down on the escalation *even though I don’t want a relationship*.

    And you’re spot on there I think. Need to be very alert to it.

    I don’t think the FRA issue has left any residue though – I’m over it and she’s faded into the background and I’ve had 2-3 pulls (and a few more near pulls) since then.

    For the other readers – long story but I went out with a HB6 31 year old virgin and almost banged her on 1st date (I chose not to take her virginity) and then second time I saw her there were some confusion and mixed messages on her part which led to her leaving my place (completely untouched FAOD) upset and confused, and having said some stuff which was scarily reminescent of the kind of regret language FRA accusers often use. I turned it around with some help from HABD and YaReally (in the CH comments) but it was a scary episode. I basically had to platonically date her to push that night into the background and get her into a better emotional state wrt me.

    Also Sentient – point taken about the subconscious sabotage by deliberately scheduling dates where I can’t pull. Sometimes (like the new FR I just posted) I can’t control the logistics, but henceforth when I do control them, no more scheduling it where I KNOW I can’t pull.

    The reason I didn’t pull the 23 year old (aside from the self-sabotage of bad logistics) is that I knew I didn’t have enough attraction – she pulled away from the kisses first (and I’m usually careful about that) and she didn’t come in for a good bye kiss etc. I know she liked me but I’m not at all sure I had that one locked..maybe, *maybe* if I’d put in another hour or two and a venue change.

  44. Thanks Forge – yes you’re right of course, although I had never thought of it like that. What you’re saying is basically a combination of what HABD is saying about me not escalating with good girls and Sentient’s thought about state and getting into state.

    There’s a powerful feedback loop in a good date – when the girl is hot (or even better hot+smart/funny) my interest goes up sharply and my state improves and we just bounce off each other and the chemistry goes through the roof..

    When it’s not there..well, for me I’m just practicing laser eyes or whatever (and that practice is valuable) but yeah they can feel the subcomms.

    It’s like when I was doing a lot of stripper game in 2014, I got to be good enough to spot fake stripper IOIs a mile off and learned to distinguish the ones who genuinely had (some) real attraction – and I remember YaReally pointing out back then that that feeling of fakeness I got from stripper IOIs is the same feeling a woman gets when she “feels” a guy isn’t really into her and just wants her for sex (but isn’t particularly attracted to her – nothing wrong with the “just sex” part if the passion really is there).

  45. PS – I remember the first time I did something similar to the dance floor grab thing – it’s an amazing feeling when it works and you realize this is possible. I still don’t get into state strongly enough to do it most of the time when I go out but it feels great (the night I got it to work properly for the first – and only – time – I had spoken to a two set earlier briefly without my wing, then later on they walked past the bar where my wing and I were standing and I grabbed the arm of the HB7 and she *resisted* – like properly resisted and tried to pull away. I didn’t yank her in, but I just held on firmly and she was very obviously pulling back enough that my wing (who is no AFC) was whispering urgently in my ear: “[Culum], What are you doing???”

    And then..about 5 seconds in, she submits and came right into me perfectly happily and willingly and my wing and I spoke to them for 20 mins (I’d have had the makeout too, but I had actually stopped them going to the restroom and they were desperate and left and then they vanished).

  46. Thanks for the replies all.

    @Culum Struan

    “What if you had done the same thing but gone a bit slower, at your pace instead of “rushing” between them? What if you had directed the action and the conversation and remained the center of focus?
    By teasing them, qualifying them and amping up the competition angle jokingly? Preferably with some sexual innuendo and strong EC/sexual voice tonality..”

    Yeah, actually got a chance to do something like that today. Worked good. A fourth girl had neck issues (I don’t know if it’s catching or if they’re pretending to get my attention now lol) and so I just walked up to her and started working on her, not a word said, when I saw her pawing at a sore spot. A girl from the convo yesterday appeared and said she was next. I told her she’d have to catch me first. She cocked her head, raised her eyebrows and stared me down; I just held eye contact and then she grinned. “Challenge accepted!”

    We’ll see how it goes.

    “Now some of this stuff may not work in the practicalities of you workplace or you may not want to push things so sexual in that environment..but you get the idea of the kind of direction you want to go?”

    Ya, it would likely not go over too well. Not in front of multiple girls at first, I’ve pulled some crazy shit verbally when I have one girl by herself and I’m in state….good mindset for other contexts though! Lol, one of my sticking points is sexualizing the interaction early.

    Also today (it was a long day) I was hanging with a girl, cute, very feminine, married. She asks me to tell a joke to take her mind off things….I say the joke I thought of was inappropriate and she says to tell it anyways. So I do, she laughs, hard, and then asks for another. I tell another dirty joke and she laughs again, then I launch into kino and light innuendo. That was great; I actually noticed it made me a bit nervous to do it (hence my hesitation to tell the joke at first). This is a really ‘good girl’ type, just need more experience to learn AWALT.

    PS – how old are you Forge? It’s just useful to calibrate your FRs..

    I’m 29. If you want an image – good looking enough to turn heads, a bit awkward/thought-laden, but have a strong charismatic streak suppressed by years of beta conditioning.

    “PPS – Shit testing you and liking your strong hands isn’t mutually exclusive – enjoying your hands LEADS to the shit testing.

    Lol yeah I think at this point girls get pretty confused/ambivalent around me sometimes because I have a dash of natural game, a dash of learned game, and a dash of hardcore beta that won’t die. So I’m always doing things like showing strong alpha mentality followed by failing a simple shit test. Poor things.

  47. @having a bad day

    “that’s straight up beta baiting…lol…can you think of a better way for a girl to get you ‘reacting’ to her?…lol”

    Good call. I suppose I wasn’t considering the difference between baiting (which she does to capture attention) and an IOI (which generally exits her in spite of her best efforts to suppress it).

    Agree with most of what you wrote in the comment, the rest I plan on testing lol.

    Just this:

    “no, not a ‘neg’…negs are proactive…this girl was shit testing/beta baiting you…your ‘response’ was not ‘reactive’ (even if it was unconscious on your part…lol) it was a form of ‘agree and amplify’ = you passed that shit test…lol…
    then, she ‘cast a resentful look’ = the next shit test in her rolodex…lol…her thought wasn’t about her small boobs…and chances were good that if you passed THAT shit test, she would have escalated to a verbal shit test…lol
    good luck!

    Thanks, polishes my terminology. This stuff is important when really trying to grasp how to use these dynamics.

    I did kinda pass the next shit test, I laughed at her. Genuinely thought her being pissed off was funny. But I had push/pulled that girl hardcore earlier that day so I think she was trying hard not to engage so as to ‘not encourage me.’

  48. Dutchman, HABD was spot on. It’s YOUR frame; what’s important is what YOU think of her performance. And her not thanking you in a musical girly voice for your compliment is her avoiding the compliment. But don’t worry, it takes time to build that kinda frame, she won’t do it overnight even if you started being perfect alpha instantaneously.

    I’d avoid GW’s thing for now though. You need to establish frame first. See this: ‘“Good start on getting the house in order today. Keep it up.”, followed by walking away and maintaining calmness no matter how she reacts.’

    is a huge compliance test. You’re basically renegotiating how much you can expect from her wrt housework, it flips the current frame on its head. All at your casual say-so. She’s not ready for that yet.

  49. @Culum

    You can get away with a lot on the dance floor if you know how to calibrate. It’s really hard to take the interactions anywhere unless you run into fool’s gold, but it’s a good way to break your expectations/get into state.

    Watch for the girls that seem to be ignoring you but their hair keeps flying in your direction or their hips keep lining up with yours (albeit a foot or two away). You sometimes need to disarm a friend or white knight or two, but that’s usually easy if you seem to just be HAVING SO MUCH FUN and that’s why you’re doing it, you’re not ‘stealing’ her no, it’s just soon she’ll be having SO MUCH FUN with you that you can just maneuver her away….

    Probably harder if you don’t fit in age-wise of course. Also, peacocking and good looks are more than averagely important since that’s what can grab attention in the high-stimulus environment of the dance floor.

  50. @Culum

    On the 6.5 – I spent maybe 15 minutes total with her and her friend, not isolated. So didn’t really work up the attraction, I just assumed if she was willing to up to my room at all there was some shot. So pushed it and pfffft… But so what right?

    Same with the 6. I spent at most an hour over the two nights with her (30 and 30)… if she was hotter or younger or both, I would have definitely pushed more in my room, but at 2am or so, honestly, rather go to bed than work on a late 30’s 6. If it wasn’t for the voice of HABD saying “threesome” I would have gone up alone and left them both.

    So this speaks to two things for you… first as we have discussed in the past is real desire. There is no substitute in your subcoms for that… and that is a positive feedback loop. 1+1=2

    The second is this stuff here :

    “The reason I didn’t pull the 23 year old (aside from the self-sabotage of bad logistics) is that I knew I didn’t have enough attraction – she pulled away from the kisses first (and I’m usually careful about that) and she didn’t come in for a good bye kiss etc. I know she liked me but I’m not at all sure I had that one locked..maybe, *maybe* if I’d put in another hour or two and a venue change.”

    I have to challenge you on this as two limiting beliefs… First – you were kissing her and isolated with her to her car, so you HAD enough attraction, you just didn’t push it and LEAD. She is not going to jump on your dick in public right? Play back everything she said and then see if your pinging her responses to you was a lack of attraction or just permission/validation seeking by you.

    Second – Two hours or more!!!! Man I don’t think I could muster that unless it was a super super hot fun girl, like the Chinese model from the fall… As it is, it is counterproductive to spend more time pre-bang if you DON’T have to… You diffuse attraction at an alarming rate. My model is amp amp amp attraction and then layer in just enough comfort and move, either to make out and pull or pull. Then you have the attraction overload working in your favor. This is why, other than logistics, I like SNL game… You are forced to act and move… you can”t sit back and wait. Attraction – Logistics – Comfort – Pull (or move on)… Starting from online is already like a day 2 without the massive attraction overload… cold approach is a better tactic here because it amplifies the overload…. whoah what happened?!!!!!

  51. @forge

    (on my phone )

    “But I think you really need to build up reference experiences gradually before such things become possible. If you’re not on cocaine or something at least lol.”

    this is straight up FI…lol

    now tell me why…

    good luck!

  52. @habd

    “this is straight up FI…lol

    now tell me why…”

    Because it’s making you work for sexual access rather than simply knowing it’s available to you.

    And I get that, I just took stuff a few times back before I had any concious game. In the right situ my mindset would just fall into place. With a very LSE girl once I was just like ‘fuck this bitch, she’s been bothering me all day’ and just gab her buy the hair and push her over so her face was in the dirt and she’d cum in seconds. This was right in the open lol I didn’t care. Foreplay? Fuck that shit. She tried to provoke me into doing that again for months after and I just ignored her except for once or twice.

    So the right mindset doesn’t NEED practice, just being. But I maintain that these mindsets are a muscle you can strengthen, just like your ability to create favorable logistics. What changes with practice, unlike with muscles, isn’t what you’re capable of but how consistently you’re capable of it. ‘Naturals’ are that way not bc of magic but bc they’ve grown up experiencing a string of positive reference experiences interacting w women.

  53. @Culum Sentient Forge

    “-You don’t say much about how your vibe was with the 6.5? ”

    was their interaction sexualized at all? (meaning would she think he’s attractive? = her hindbrain is on board) (note – there was a part of the newest post that covers some of this idea of attraction being necessary precursor)…AND did she ‘isolate’ with him or not? (that means no other males…and sometimes even then…lol)…that should tell you everything you need to know about the vibe…

    “-One interpretation of both of them walking you back is the threesome desire..the other is that the 6.5 was literally coming to be the chaperone to prevent the 6 from losing control and jumping you (but if that was the case why did they offer to come to your room AT ALL? Surely safer to say goodbye in the lobby?). And if that was the case why did the 6.5 let you take the 6 into your room, even if she stood in the hallway as a partial cockblock?”

    EXACTLY…lol…the ONLY reason is 3some…now you’re getting it…just let that FI induced filter you’re looking through dissolve with red pill goodness…lol…

    her HAMSTER was telling her that it was a great idea to ‘save’ her friend by going with them to that charming (attractive) man’s hotel room…you know, the one with that BIG bed…lol…but she had to at least throw out a soft-ball shit test to confirm his ‘attractiveness’…i bet both those girls were REALLY disappointed when Sentient didn’t convert.

    talk about teasing…lol…i mean how many times do you think late-30’s milfy girls are going to get a chance to experience that kind of EMOTIONAL roller coaster/experience? with the intensity provided by an attractive man?… (stop thinking like a man…lol…ie logically about your dick/sex/physical experience…lol…that shit does NOT matter to girls. have you learned NOTHING from YaReally?…lol)

    “See, until relatively recently I was at a stage where just grabbing a girl on the dance floor and dancing with her was unimaginable, now I can do that no issue once I warm up.”

    extrapolate that out to 100% red pill…you see behind the FI mirage…and you get…

    “Sounds like pulling a threesome in that situ would take serious frame and bustamove ”

    “But I’d still balk at pulling a girl into my room in front of her friend and just going at her. Just like Sentient still balks at just pulling her protesting friend in and seeing if it’s just a shit test.”

    = FI mirage = girls couldn’t POSSIBLY do that with YOU (bc you’re just a normal guy…) note – if THEY are isolated with you, AND it’s a sexualized interaction, they are BOTH telling you it’s on…lol

    WHY do girls react to game?…think about that evo-psych stuff… about the alpha caveman with his 6 girl harem… would those girls even LET another girl have some ‘isolation’ with him?…of course not…lol (remember, there is NO nanny state to help them if they get ‘displaced’ by another girl…) they would all just be like ‘if you’re going to f’k him, WE are going to watch!…”

    (bc then they could learn any ‘tricks’ (cough ‘bj’ cough…lol) that that one girl had bc it would neutralize any advantage she had over them… and then pre-selection and competition anxiety would kick in…and THEN what happens?…lol… that shit doesn’t just stop when the clothes come off…in fact it just ramps up…bc at that point it’s ‘go time’… and that situ will just generate a big positive sexual feedback loop…lol

    remember, the WHOLE goal of hindbrain/hamster is to get that girl preggo with ‘superior’ alpha genetics…and ANY man with the balls to KNOW he can get 2 girls into bed at the same time = alpha stud to a girl’s hindbrain…

    Forge

    just think about what would have happened with those THREE girls, if you had been in your apartment with them and you hadn’t started reacting to them…think about the vibe when all 3 first showed up together and then extrapolate…lol …don’t you think it COULD have gone 4some pretty fast?…lol

    Culum

    “HABD – I was just about to post indignantly that I don’t have an M/W complex (and I don’t) but I take your point about the subtler issue. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, but you’re essentially saying that if I view a girl as “girlfriend worthy” then I slow down on the escalation *even though I don’t want a relationship*. ”

    this is partly the FI in play. (given your age, you are SUPPOSED to be thinking about ‘settling down’ with a girl and forming a family…so, you could be unconsciously doing just that…) but given what you just said it looks like there is also something else in play – having fun with a cool girl/fun companion…

    and that’s a legit focus (i think having fun is vastly underated…lol…and i actually happen to like some girls as people…i know – shocking!…lol), but its working against getting bangs…blah, blah, you know why…so, a game plan (how’s that for a convenient pun…lol) is when you find a fun girl, push for a snl…then, take her out for breakfast/brunch and just hang out…this is actually the best of both worlds…and totally possible (and what YaReally talks about in his pLTR plan = think about having 3 girls just like this in your harem)…but you have to do it in the right order…

    (i just want to point out that your overall situ is a good example of what YaReally talks about when he says that if something doesn’t seem to be working/making sense, you have to drill down deeper to figure it out, so you can have confidence in your actions/have predictable results…)

    Sentient

    “If it wasn’t for the voice of HABD saying “threesome” I would have gone up alone and left them both.”

    props on giving that a try…when we deconstruct the situ in hindsight, can you see the path to daylight that was there?

    good luck!

  54. @HABD –

    “props on giving that a try…when we deconstruct the situ in hindsight, can you see the path to daylight that was there?”

    Indeed, indeed… i shuffle away in failure and shame. And curse you for now saying “foursome”! You bastard…!!!

    1. Pour Girl: “I’ll bet you’d just love a threesome wouldn’t you?”

      Rollo: *rolls eyes* “Pffft, threesome? Foursome. Two girls would only finish before me.”

      Agree & Amplify, always Agree & Amplify.

  55. @Sentient

    “Indeed, indeed… i shuffle away in failure and shame. And curse you for now saying “foursome”! You bastard…!!!”

    lol…all i see is upside potential…

    @Rollo

    dude, you should write a book or something…lol

    good luck!

  56. I don’t even know how I passed shit tests before A&A. ‘Inconsistently’ would be one answer. ‘By not giving a shit’ would be another.

  57. Forge the Sky

    January 27th, 2016 at 10:03 am
    I don’t even know how I passed shit tests before A&A. ‘Inconsistently’ would be one answer. ‘By not giving a shit’ would be another.

    By accident as well…. LOL

  58. I should probably be posting on the new thread by now but HABD keeps bringing cool shit up.

    “just think about what would have happened with those THREE girls, if you had been in your apartment with them and you hadn’t started reacting to them…think about the vibe when all 3 first showed up together and then extrapolate…lol …don’t you think it COULD have gone 4some pretty fast?…lol”

    Heh, I remember Steve Jabba (a natural who got into PUA) saying that if a girl stands near him for more than a few seconds he knows she wants to fuck him – it’s just a matter of his taking action and not fucking up the seduction process.

    There are two things I’ve really zeroed in on as being crucial to the well-laid man’s mindset. I get flashes of them myself and it’s crazy what can happen then lol.

    First, it is crucial that you have a strong emotional pull towards the girl. You need to really like her and get drawn into the process, then she’ll follow suit. Or at least hate her if she’s LSE lol that can work fine too.

    Second, girls are generally very receptive to sex if you know how to look for the ones signalling it – and the signalling is deliberately obfuscated by society and conditioning so only a few men see ‘through the matrix.’ See through that and you see opportunities left and right, the only thing left to do is 1. logistics 2. don’t fuck up the seduction process and 3. take action.

    Example – secretary at my work (one of the cute-but-not-stunning girls) will often let me know when I’ve got a client. Sometimes she’ll pop her head in the door and pipe up, “Hey, John’s here for you” or whatever. Just practical. Then other times she walks into my office, stands right next to me at my desk, and hands me their paperwork while looking me in the eyes, stand there a second as I look it over, then leave. Aside – she did that yesterday and I didn’t say anything, just patted her on the low back but except I ‘missed’ and basically clapped her in the ass as I smirked at her. She didn’t miss a beat, just stood there a second longer and then left, looking a bit flushed.

    So most guys wouldn’t think that her walking in means much. “Oh, sometimes she just comes in to give me the paperwork, maybe it’s just that she has an extra second and when she doesn’t she’s busy” if they think about it at all.

    But

    Think about if you were married to the girl, and instead of calling you when dinner is ready or popping her head in to you study she walked in, stood next to you, and just said “I’ve got dinner ready” and then just stood there a second.

    At that point it would just be me deciding whether I was in the mood to take her there to be fun and spontaneous or if I wanted to tease her across the table a bit then escalate to heavy petting during dishes and then take her on the cleared table after.

    But because I haven’t served the FI by committing to her, I’m not supposed to think that, if we were just in a different location, I could be banging her inside 15 minutes just cause she came and stood next to me for a second.

  59. Forge the Sky – yeah exactly. This is the Secret Society concept – theres a classic RSD Tyler post on it from the old days which YaReally often links to. I am not (yet) as into it as I want to be but I’ve had a few flashes – one of my favourite pulls was a sugar daddy date where I flat out refused to pay anything and then fried a chick’s circuits with enough attraction that she gave me a BJ in the toilet and thanked me for it – and on the way home she told me how one of her friends would love to bang me.

    This stuff happens..

  60. HABD/Sentient – okay point taken on all fronts. Esp about the attraction diffusing over time so it being better to pump up the attraction and just add in enough comfort.

    Now that I think about it, I don’t think I’ve EVER had a 4 hour pull (unless it was the second date and even then it was about 2 hours in the second date). ALL my successful first date pulls (if they happened at all) happened in about 2 hours by following exactly the model (unconsciously) Sentient mentions – insane off the charts attraction quickly, heavy makeout and girl obviously turned on and then pull, with the preceding two hours having established just enough comfort. Of course logistics is the other big factor here..

    1. @Culum,
      Awesome FR and good job. I love your details and candidness with us here. Forget about the fact she was an easy fish (probably 9 days into her cycle for that matter), you certainly played it well, which is all that matters.

      Re: Physical force, you are right. Just let your gut tell you what to do without mental masturbation. If you feel like moving her physically, do it. Just don’t run a script and force it when there is no vibe. Watch Julien videos to get a feel….he constantly tests that boundary.

      Re: takeaway. (Thanks and to @Sentient) This works great (and you are confirming what I am discovering on my own with my wife). In Marriage/LTR game you use separation as punishment to mold the behavior you want longer term, but what I am finding is that tactically this works as well.

      Mini wife/LTR FR:
      Last night she got pissed off that I was fondling her whenever I wanted and spanking her ass, which she claims often she hates. This blowup happened in the evening when we normally (but not always, have to be unpredictable) sex takes place so she probably was complaining to some degree fairly that I was ruining the experience for her. So she stormed into the room and I simply didn’t respond, had no change of attitude at all, and proceeded to ignore her. I got my computer and simply did some work in bed for a while and then, when she finally came to bed, simply shut it down and set it aside preparing and ready to sleep without touching at all.

      She was laying, facing me and doing nothing. I didn’t respond at all, but was totally calm and even good humored when our 13 yo son came in and gave mommy his ritualized hug and “I love you mom”. She slightly grazed my foot with hers, etc. After a while, I simply turned to her and (sparing details) re-framed what happened as her being in a bad mood because of other circumstances (diet and wanting to eat more). She at first resisted, claiming she had said this before, but eventually gave in to my frame and started justifying that “Women also get angry when they are hungry, not just men.”, etc. I laughed it off as her silly temper tantrum, etc. and told her to start behaving, pulled her on me and …escalation, etc. sex was good! 🙂

      Overall, after more than a year since first discovering red-pill, the bitter taste is slowly fading, but not gone and I am getting a bit more comfortable, though I have a ton yet to learn. In addition to mastering game fundamentals and internalizing frame and Point of Origin, I have to work on my own improvement (too comfortable), flirting & gaming girls for practice & to later use for dread, and reducing my legal/married man risk long term.

  61. Exactly. So women should have no or little voice in the direction of society because unlike men, they’ll never think of how their hardware and firmware impacts everyone but themselves. When I see a hottie, my hardware and firmware says I should ravish her in the first dark alley, but I don’t because I’m a man. Of course, if one accepts hedonism as the point of society, pursuit of happiness and all the other nonsense, why should she care for the future or whatnot? In my country the hedonistic social democratic way of thinking hasn’t infested everyone, but the distinction is obvious. Hedonism is particularly poisonous for women due to their solipsism.

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