Women ‘Improving’ Men

Improving_men

“I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

I had this comment offered in a recent thread. It’s a common gripe from women who believe they’re in some way Red Pill and want to divert their new acceptance of Red Pill truths to serve the same tired ends of the Feminine Imperative. The operative, of course, is always whose definition do we base the measure of ‘improvement’ on? For most women the term ‘improvement’ always aligns with whatever best serves a female sexual strategy – because from a feminine-solipsistic perspective whatever serve women should necessarily serve men.

As with most uneducated women’s concerns I’d already addressed this long ago in The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill:

A lot gets made of the Dark Triad or the Dark Side of Game where a skillful player can sadistically use his newly learned red-pill super powers for evil instead of for the greater good of mankind. Game-aware women – the ones who have been forcibly exhausted of all pretense of maintaing the illusion that Game is a lie – feel as though it’s owed to them, in their concession of Game’s reality, that Men should use Game to women’s benefit. Even to the last effort women still cling to the tools of a feminized acculturation;

“Yeah, OK, you got us, Game is really what women want, Hypergamy is the law of womankind, but now it’s your responsibility that you use it for the better benefit of society by molding a new breed of improved Betas to accommodate fem-centric monogamy. You owe us our security for having admitted to the grand illusion that’s kept you in thrall for so long.”

It’s an indictment of Game-aware women, and sympathizing men, that they should feel a need to delineate some aspects of Game into good camps (pro woman, pro feminized monogamy) and bad camps (manipulative, polygynous, male-centered). Even in the admission of the truth that Game has enlightened Men of, the feminine imperative still seeks to categorize the application of Game to its own end. That Men might have some means of access to their own sexual strategy is too terrible a Threat; Game must be colored good or bad as it concerns the imperatives of women and a fem-centric societal norm.

As the default, socially correct and virtuous concern, women have an easier time of this. As Game becomes increasingly more difficult to deny or misdirect for the feminine, the natural next step in accepting it becomes qualifying its acceptable uses. While hypergamy is an ugly truth, the characterization of it becomes “just how women are” –an unfortunate legacy of their evolution. However for Men, the characterizations of the harsher aspects of Game in its rawest form  (contingencies for hypergamy) are dubbed “the dark arts”.

In her trolling ignorance she fails to understand that she and many “Red Pill Women” before her all want a better Beta. They want a Beta with a side of Alpha – in essence a better slave; one that’s just ignorant enough of female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies their need for amused mastery, masculine dominance (when it’s convenient and affirming), and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needs to be made aware of women’s nature.

The difference in this case is that the ostensibly “Red Pill” woman now looks to the manosphere’s best and brightest to provide them with such men via some distortion of Red Pill social proof. Not only that, but, in their entitled hubris, they are all too willing to pander to exactly the male idealistic nature I described in the last post. Their appeal is to Red Pill aware men’s sense of duty, honor or integrity in mentoring other Blue Pill Beta men (the ones they hope to improve) in an acceptable Purple Pill fashion – just enough ‘self-improvement’ to serve women’s sexual strategies, but just enough watered down ignorance of women’s feral nature to serve as what they believe would be their ‘right guy’.

You’re just not a “Man” if you don’t promote a feminine reviewed and approved version of the Red Pill to other men.

Many of the wives and women that participate in formerly Red Pill married forums follow this invasion into that previously male space and then turn it to similar ends.

The worst part of this bastardization of course is that they only need to encourage the parts of Red Pill awareness that serves their ends. They feel entitled to Red Pill men educating the plugged-in in how to become the ‘improved’ men they believe they deserve. Thus it’s an easy bandwagon to get aboard so long as their redefinition of what actually is Red Pill jives with what they feel is their due in men.

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

The ideal situation for Red Pill women here is to have a group of respected Red Pill men educate the next generation of plugged-in men to provide the attractive aspects of this awareness while stifling the uncomfortable threatening aspects that might require women to actually prove their own worthiness of those men.

Sexy Psychopaths

My good friend Dagonet had a bit of a misguided hope in this tweet today:

https://twitter.com/TheQuestForever/status/686981982014668800

Once again, male idealism gets the better of one of our own. I wish it were in fact the case that women’s innate, evolved Hypergamy could be overridden so they would find men’s higher-order virtues and ideals to be arousing and attractive. This, however, is not the reality we are dealing with.

Reader Gregg brought up an interesting, and as you’ll read timely, comment about why Dag is in error:

Men think that women want “confident, strong” men. Why do we think that way? Because women told us so, or we have read it in some “wise” 500 pages psychology book. Our old provider needs to believe this, so that he has some “noble” manly goal he can pursue. Of course it is very beneficial for women to have STRONG, CONFIDENT slave that protect her. Put aside our male ego, our goals and aspirationas when we want to understand women. They know that our male ego will side with them, will help them in their game. Unhampered by ego, woman can easily enslave man like that.

Male ego tells us – we have to be strong and confident..cos it is “manly”, it’s “respectable” and women SHOULD respect that! So it is a given that they respect that! While in reality…nothing is further from the truth. She wants strong and confident men as her protecting slaves but she tingles and craves for emotionally unstable man. Like attracts the like. Is Tyler Durden a strong, confident man? He is unstable, knows weak spot of women, he can live in a moment, is more unpredictable than woman. He is emotionally intelligent, more so than typical women. He behaves more like a woman than like a man. Therefore he HAS POWER over them! Is Mystery a strong, confident man? Anyone who’s read “the Game” knows how he was driven mad by one, single chick.

What are the traits of men, women are madly enslaved to? Is it confidence, is it strenght? NOPE. It is unpredictability, unstability, emotional COLDNESS, psychopathy! In this case he is more unstable than her, so SHE is trying to fix the relationship, she is trying to give them some rules, some stability, some “security”. She must do all the work, otherwise there is nothing. She fills the void. He who cares less…..

We still do not want to confess hard, dark truth about women and about ourselves. We still talk about this burden of performance, confidence, strenght, emh..POSITIVE masculinity. We still discuss with women, try to persuade them with logic, try to impress them with our “performance”, knowledge, experience. So can our man with innate need to perform rule/care less about, the realtionship? How? He is enslaved by his very need to perform which performance will be judged by women!

Ultimate lotharios are neither strong, nor confident. They behave more like women than like men. They do not feel the need to perform, to protect, to build, to be confident, to answer, to be responsible. Take Charlie Sheen as an example. This man is emotionally damaged, unstable, irresponsible, weak. Majority of women are much more stable than him. Yet he has fucked more then 5000 of them. You think it is due to his fame? I am sure each of us know weak men, psychopatic men with no fame, yet with harems of women.

It is still the same…discussion of slaves how to be worthy of women. Maybe mentality, maybe genetics, do not know which one more. And new generations of lambs arises…primed for slaughter as the last. We are loosing my friends, big time.

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’ll drop a two of the responding comments before I do. YaReally provides some counterbalance here:

YaReally:

And here we come to two different results because Gregg isn’t entirely inaccurate that a lot of fucked up damaged dudes are catnip for girls (and not just damaged fucked up girls, hi madonna/whore complex). Whenever we get two different results we have to drill deeper to find the commonality.

It comes down to the guy having an emotional impact on the girl. It doesn’t matter whether you make her feel good or bad emotions (ideally you make her feel both at various times), all that matters is that you have emotional impact on her. The damaged basketcase hot & cold guy who treats her like a princess one minute then tells her to fuck off because his life is falling apart the next is giving her a full range of emotions. So is the super confident guy with his shit together who’s running push/pull on her.

The biggest thing no one will talk about because it sets guys on a bad path is how fucked up and falling apart your life can really BE and you can still attract and keep hot poon around. Ideally we want men to go the TRP route where they build their careers and hit the gym and don’t booze it up etc. But the reality is you can be a fucking MESS and still get hot girls, as long as you have emotional impact on them. It’s why chicks will whore themselves out for ugly pimps and go back to abusive relationships, and on the flip side it’s why they’ll leave dependable boring guys who give them an emotional flatline day to day.

Personally I think that in the old days a chick had a baby at an early enough age to fulfill her need for crazy emotional impact drama to keep her happy and not craving it, but these days since they don’t want kids till they’re 30+ they fill that voice with the cock carousel, cats, Eat Pray Love adventures, hundreds of hours of Netflix (shows/movies full of emotional ups and downs), fucking guys like me, etc.

And finally I’m going to paraphrase SJF’s comment here for another perspective:

What makes you think “lothario” is the kind of man some of us want to be? (although I’m not sure if you are advocating being one or not.) A lothario is an unscrupulous seducer of woman. Unscrupulous means having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair.

Just because a man has an innate desire (not need) to perform, doesn’t mean he is enslaved. The Rational Male certainly confesses/explicates/describes truths about women and ourselves. Some of us aren’t shackled by knowledge of the burden of performance and having confidence, strength and positive masculinity. Some of us have found that not to be a burden. To be a low hurdle to real power. With low downside and potentially huge upside.

As an aside here I would also point out that Gregg’s focus on men’s Burden of Performance is entirely on serving women’s interests rather than a natural order of male idealism. This is a common mindset among Blue Pill, plugged-in men, they can’t imagine an existence where their finding of an idealistically male purpose or passion in life is set in a context that doesn’t relate to how women perceive it. It’s a logical trap that most MGTOWs find themselves in – they want a world where their performance burden is removed with regard to women, but still refuse to accept that this burden exists independent from women’s perceptions.

In other words they can’t exit the Game, the fundamental rules persist; whether they choose to play or not the Game proceeds in spite of their involvement.

That being what it is, I’ve set these two concepts together here for a reason. First we have a set of Red Pill women seemingly desirous of Red Pill aware men that serve their imperatives within their acceptable frame of what “Red Pill” ought to be for them. Second we have a parallel between Gregg’s take and YaReally’s take on what women are honestly seeking in an ‘improved’ man – a more perfected slave; one who can embody the worst contradiction to positive masculinity (from Gregg’s perspective), and one who despite his performance burden is really only required to provide emotional polarity to generate tingles and genuine desire.

Toxic Masculinity

Liz’s comment from the last thread (emphasis mine):

Masculinity is not bad, it is good.

The poster responded that toxic masculinity refers to behaviors that cause distress (telling a son not to cry and so forth). I didn’t go further into the argument with her, we didn’t see eye to eye enough to really engage anyway […]

Juxtapose this with the feminine way of going things. He is told everyone has his or her own unique specialness and he just needs some encouragement.

Sometimes I think our idea of “bad” and “good” are skewed, and that’s just feminist poisoning.

Toxic masculinity is yet another narrative buzz word the Feminine Imperative has made endemic in the same way it repeats the “rape culture’ meme. By adding the term ‘culture’ to any article you find offensive you make that article an endemic phenomenon – Rape ‘culture’, Bro ‘culture’, a ‘Culture’ of Corruption, etc.

‘Toxic’ Masculinity is another such exercise. It presumes a universally agreed upon definition of what exactly is toxic – very similar again to the good and bad uses of Game in the Dark Art / Dark Triad associations I made at the beginning of this article. And in Liz’s exchange that definition is whatever male-specific behaviors women find “distressing”.

However as we see in Gregg’s example of ideal masculinity, those distressing attributes are in fact the most arousing attributes of men. I’ve used this example before, but the most pussy I’ve ever enjoyed, the most freely given and most genuinely sought after of myself by women was when I was virtually penniless. I didn’t need to signal parental investment and provisioning cues to get women’s sexual interest, I just need to fit the bill for what YaReally defines as the “fun guy” – or as Sheryl Sandberg agrees, “the bad boy, the crazy boy, the cool boy, and the commitment-phobic boy in order to prompt a woman’s genuinely inspired sexual best.

Women & Altruism:

Altruism plays a role in mate choice, particularly in women’s preferences and in long-term (LT) relationships. The current study analyzed how these preferences interacted with another important mate choice variable, physical attractiveness. Here, female participants were presented with photographs of men of varying levels of physical attractiveness, alongside descriptions of them behaving either altruistically or not in different scenarios. The results showed women preferred altruistic men, particularly in LT relationships and that this interacted with physical attractiveness such that being both attractive and altruistic made a man more desirable than just the sum of the two desirable parts. Also, being altruistic made low attractive men more desirable but only for LT relationships. Finally, men who were just altruistic were rated more desirable than men who were just attractive, especially for LT relationships. Overall, these findings are discussed in terms of the role of altruism in mate choice, particularly in LT relationships and directions of future research.

There’s subsection of Red Pill thought (Athol Kay in particular) that believes that Beta attributes align with the effects oxytocin has on men and women. I’m adding this here to provide a balance to that misguided idea:

It has been suggested that the degree of compassion—the feeling of warmth, understanding and kindness that motivates the desire to help others, is modulated by observers’ views regarding the target’s vulnerability and suffering. This study tested the hypothesis that as compassion developed to protect vulnerable kinships, hormones such as oxytocin, which have been suggested as playing a key role in ‘tend-and-befriend’ behaviors among women, will enhance compassion toward women but not toward men. Thirty subjects participated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, within-subject study. Following administration of oxytocin/placebo, participants listened to recordings of different female/male protagonists describing distressful emotional conflicts and were then asked to provide compassionate advice to the protagonist. The participants’ responses were coded according to various components of compassion by two clinical psychologists who were blind to the treatment. The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men. These findings indicate that the oxytocinergic system differentially mediates compassion toward women and toward men, emphasizing an evolutionary perspective that views compassion as a caregiving behavior designed to help vulnerable individuals.

Those example might seem a bit abstract, but I’m putting them up here to make the point that women’s sexual selection filtering is a two-fold prospect rooted in the dual nature of women’s Hypergamy. What best serves Alpha Fucks is contradicted by Beta Bucks.

Thus we have notions like the attributes that make up “Toxic Masculinity” being arbitrarily whatever aspects of the male nature women find themselves most lacking in men. And by way of that we get a definition that fluctuates according to the Feminine Imperative’s needs. Because of this women, Red Pill or otherwise will never be honest arbiter of ‘improving’ men’s states of masculinity.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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peregrinejohn
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How bizarre. It’s a small slice of the manosphere that isn’t about self-improvement, and the majority of the thing is specifically in the context of relationships. What the heck does she think she’s been seeing?

LeeLee
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You know what I’ve been thinking about lately? Neoteny and how women have basically been engineered through evolution to look and maybe interally be child-like, and just looking at how child-like I really am and trying to understand myself and other women that way. And if I try to think through this with that focus, I think women are like children in that consciously we think we want to be in control and we have really great ideas for what we’d do and change if we were in control, but just like little kids we’d hate our reality and be… Read more »

The Question
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@peregrinejohn “Self-improvement” is code for how they want men to improve in ways that will make them better (beta) men according to the FI, not in a way that will empower a man to operate outside the control of the FI to his own personal benefit and jeopardize a woman’s sexual strategy, especially when they are entering their epiphany phase. Any “self-improvement” has to benefit women, then the man. Lifting weights and dressing more attractively is fine; learning how to abandon Blue Pill concepts about love without rejecting one’s idealism, and killing the inner beta outright, is not what they’re… Read more »

rugby11
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“The worst part of this bastardization of course is that they only need to encourage the parts of Red Pill awareness that serves their ends. They feel entitled to Red Pill men educating the plugged-in in how to become the ‘improved’ men they believe they deserve. Thus it’s an easy bandwagon to get aboard so long as their redefinition of what actually is Red Pill jives with what they feel is their due in men.”
Rollo work up this morning and realized how much I’ve grown and regressed.
I appreciate this place reverently.

nastynate
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Rollo, you have been hitting nothing but grand-slams on these articles since Preventative Medicine came out. If 2016 continues like this, I can’t help but think Rational Male Vol.3 is inevitable sooner than later.

Big-Al
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I think fried ice is “toxic”

The Question
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“Because of this women, Red Pill or otherwise will never be honest arbiter of ‘improving’ men’s states of masculinity.”

This will become more and more important for men to grasp as the “Red Pill” picks up momentum or gains traction. Some will cling to the FI narrative, open hypergamy/cuckoldry, come hell or high water. However, many will jump onto the “Red Pill” bandwagon as a strategic move to convince men they are the “quality girl” he’s been looking for.

kfg
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” . . . the ostensibly “Red Pill” woman now looks to the manosphere’s best and brightest to provide them with such men . . . ”

No.

PartyTimeMentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
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Yep. Not going to bother with women. If I’m going to be miserable, I’m going to be miserable without a branch swinger.

bnon
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This post seems to imply a contradiction between being „strong and confident“ and the traits women find attractive. The quote cites „unpredictability, unstability, emotional COLDNESS, psychopathy“. A cold and/or psychopatic person can sure be strong and confident. The negative aspect of „strong and confident“ seem to be an implied stability that is boring, but a guy can keep mysterious (interesting) while being that as well. I can be secure about myself, being strong doesn’t mean I must be a provider. Let me frase this as a question, one I need an answer to: -What do we speak about here if… Read more »

quixotic
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“Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.” So succinct, well said Rollo! Its crazy watching how they treat guys they smell “beta” on vs. guys that smell “alpha”, going from a bossy bitch to a cooing girly girl. Thank you for helping men like myself realize my value, find avenues to improve it (and not judging the morality, just pointing out the different roads like dark triad vs. alpha family man provider like yourself). I wish there was a way to keep broads out of… Read more »

Jeremy
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Re: Women & Altruism: Altruism plays a role in mate choice, particularly in women’s preferences and in long-term (LT) relationships….Also, being altruistic made low attractive men more desirable but only for LT relationships. Finally, men who were just altruistic were rated more desirable than men who were just attractive, especially for LT relationships. But altruism is an arguably bad thing for humanity. It is entirely contrary to the natural animal order of the world in which evolution operates. Individuals who do not care for themselves just don’t live as long as individual who do. Since society depends on the survival… Read more »

Yollo "Detritus" Comanche
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Welp. I think I’ll just learn game, so I’ll be an asshole when convenient, and a “has his shit together” guy when convenient.

Let a woman try and dominate my perspective.

I already got rid of my own sister. What chance do any of these other broads have?

Bob
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Bob
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Hey Rollo, could you add a tab on the top for the fourth year volume?

scribblerg
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Fuck. Now I know why I got the most and best and wildest ass ever during the three years where I was drinking and working and crazy like a madman, after my divorce. Men’s room sex was not rare, ass sex was regular, as were multiple orgasms and swallowing etc. I could never really understand it at some level because I knew I was a “mess”. I remember this hot, 28 yr old, Ivy grad, Miss Stable just throwing herself at me in frustration after hanging out with her in a group all day long. We were in Barcelona at… Read more »

Jeremy
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@bnon This post seems to imply a contradiction between being „strong and confident“ and the traits women find attractive. Not so much a contradiction, not really. What Rollo is saying is that the presumption of what women find attractive is many times a female-influenced meme, and as such is often a half-truth at best, outright manipulation at worst. Since women have the power of choice (when it comes to sex with men), allowing them to control the narrative on what it is they want is just asking to be deceived. Further, extrapolating from historically comfortable memes of what attracts women… Read more »

Jeremy
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@LeeLee

The male world is so different from the female world, and so inscrutable even to a woman who is trying so hard to understand.

That’s because female-world is dualistic in nature (it has to be, biology dictates this), whereas men are relatively uncomplicated and their world is uncomplicated.

It’s very much like trying to explain Newton-Einstein mechanics in the quantum world, it only really meets well at a black hole.

ShanksNes (@ShanksNes)
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As an aside here I would also point out that Gregg’s focus on men’s Burden of Performance is entirely on serving women’s interests rather than a natural order of male idealism. Can someone explain me what this male idealism is? This is something i don’t understand. When you are unplugged, there is no social contract which you uphold anymore with regards to women, which doesn’t benefit you. There is no moral obligation, no sense of duty, no honor, nothing that is real and makes you feel good about yourself. It’s just predator prey. The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies: For… Read more »

Blaximus
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Guys are still listening to women concerning what they want? In 2016? We never see dogs asking cats how to be a better canine. ” Not so much a contradiction, not really. What Rollo is saying is that the presumption of what women find attractive is many times a female-influenced meme, and as such is often a half-truth at best, outright manipulation at worst. Since women have the power of choice (when it comes to sex with men), allowing them to control the narrative on what it is they want is just asking to be deceived. Further, extrapolating from historically… Read more »

Blaximus
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Oh, yeah….Great post Rollo!

Blaximus
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” In short it resembles zero sum. Now if we look closely at any aspect of male idealism, most of them are feminine conditions or social conditions to get them laid. Want to marry me? Open doors for me (chivalry -> beta bucks ->hypergamy P2). Want to date that hot model? You better buy your tesla fast (expensive car -> beta bucks -> society + hypergamy P2).”

You have a funny description of ” Idealism “. True Male idealism is not femcentric in a pure form. You are more accurately describing Blue Pill Idealism.

PartyTimeMentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
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“It’s all a game. Know the rules and play, especially since you can’t exit.”

Sure I can. I don’t have to do shit.

kfg
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“. . . do you seriously as a man want to keep doing the same things that you aspired to do, only with your alpha glasses on? Still aspire to the same idealism, which you you thought were the prerequisites for genuine desire?” In the long run my ideals are shaped by my biology and my biology is babies all the way down. But in the short run my aspirations have had fuck all to do with generating genuine desire in women. I genuinely aspire lead by my own ideals, and I am able to do so because they have… Read more »

kfg
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“I don’t have to do shit.”

Indeed. And in that case it’s just a question of whether it’s exposure or starvation that gets you.

walawala
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One thing I’m now doing for self-improvement is stopping myself whenever I start to feel like I’m pandering, pedestalizing, over-compensating and let the feeling pass. Is this a ‘reaction’ to some ‘need’? If it is, I stop. If the behavior is a genuine proactive gesture then I proceed. The mental discipline required for this exercise is at times exhausting. It’s like being in a car accident and learning how to walk again. Also, the one side-effect of the manosphere is the over-compensation for past beta behaviours which leads to uncalibrated responses which can be plain off-putting. So it’s a process… Read more »

PartyTimeMentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
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I don’t see the point in gaming women. Not worth any effort, no matter how small. Bragging about having sex with women is like bragging about beating a five year in a foot race. So what?

Blaximus
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I hear you PartyTimeMantits.

I don’t see the point in working and earning a living. Not worth any effort.

Oh, and this eating and breathing thing is highly overrated.

Yes, I will strive to be a man that does nothing that men do. I will become quasi-man!!!

jorxster
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Rollo, excellent writing as always.

Though, threw me off when Sheryl Sandberg’s quote didn’t end, I think you missed a ” here.

…commitment-phobic boy” in…

keep up the insightful writing, I read every post.

PartyTimeMentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
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What does any of that have to do with gaming women, Blaximus?

periklees
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just pay for quality pussy, variety is the spice of life. if they are not sucking your dick, you are wasting your time cuz all they are dong is gaming your services and resources.

“I normally don’t talk to women unless I fornicate with them” –Mike Tyson

Softek
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@ scribblerg Had some mindblowing sex a couple days after a big falling out, in which I yelled really loudly and swore a lot (going back and forth with her), threw a chair across the room and punched a hole in a door. (I made it clear that I wasn’t going to do anything to her, and never intended to, after I realized how terrified she was after I exploded, but I was still pissed off) It was fucking horrible. Huge upheaval, huge argument, and I thought everything was over at that point. It was a wreck. But here we… Read more »

kfg
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@PTM: It has to do with the Burden of Performance. If you stop, you die. You may not do it directly for women, but you will do it.

And you will be watched and judged on how well you do it.

kfg
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kfg
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@Softek: “She actually said she feels closer to me after going through that together. Go figure.”

Go watch Speed, then see if it makes any more sense to you.

PartyTimeMentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
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So? I still don’t have to bother with women. What difference does it make?

kfg
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kfg
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Just because you are not interested in war does not mean that war is not interested in you.

The very air of the culture you breath has the scent of women bothering with you.

Softek
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@ kfg Makes perfect sense to me why she would feel that way. But it does throw me having spent so much time invested in the idea that I had to “fix” myself. I thought if I worked through my issues and stopped having reactions like that, my life would get better. What’s more, I thought all those unresolved emotions and my extreme inner conflicts and instabilities were the main thing keeping me from being able to have women in my life. Now they seem like a glue that’s holding my associations with women together. I can get that too,… Read more »

kfg
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@Softek: Mama always said, “Life is like a scrolling game. You can’t win, you can only keep it going as long as you can.”

LeeLee
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@Softek — you already know. It’s not that complicated when you already know that she is going to cheat on you if you give her what she says she wants. You’re not wrong.

She’s addicted to drama and demanding commitment is probably a game more than a desire. But it’s not necessarily a women’s issue. It’s a cluster B issue.

Pinelero
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Wow! Mind expanded… it’s not the burden of performance anymore but the gift of performance. No longer the caged lion, but now the ring-master of the circus.

kfg
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kfg
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“No longer the caged lion, but now the ring-master of the circus.”

Now yer gettin’ it. The problem for some, however, is that they are lions who were captured as cubs and have spent most of their lives in a cage, and now someone has carelessly left the door open – and they don’t know what to do.

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy
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@ Lee Lee Women like to be in control, but they hate the toil it takes to build something up and be in control of it. Like has been said in Rollo’s post of women wanting ready made men. Or the man in the garage. Women love to come in after something has been built, be in a position to control or manipulate, and claim look what I can do. Sheryl Sanderberg, she didn’t build facebook, yet she’s the poster icon for women running something. In Rollo’s post “the man in the garage” women love to have the beta either… Read more »

stuffinbox
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Women ‘Improving’ men We see the results of this in young men every day,thanks but no thankyou! Haven’t you done enough already? Just another dose of do as I say not as I do.Shit go teach girls how to be women and leave the boys to the men.Women invented game not men we just learn it to improve our chances to be her next fixer upper.Then he’s fixed, boom of to the next one.Women like this need to fix their own expectations into line with reality and let the man grow at his pace in his own reality.Every head is… Read more »

Always Discerning
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“They want a Beta with a side of Alpha – in essence a better slave; one that’s just ignorant enough of female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies their need for amused mastery, masculine dominance (when it’s convenient and affirming), and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needs to be made aware of women’s nature.” In turn, consider one submissive wife’s comment: “I know for me, when I spent all those years nagging my husband, telling him what to do, criticizing him often, being negative to him, and had… Read more »

Softek
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They have the hot, exciting sex with the Alpha, but he won’t commit, so forget him. They have the love and devotion and commitment from the Beta, but he can’t excite her sexually, so forget him too. The love and affection and comfort are all great until the tingles come into the picture and she starts getting horny. The ridiculously hot, satisfying primal sex is all great until the nagging desire for providership and stability comes into the picture and she starts feeling insecure, and wants commitment. If you commit, you become less sexually exciting and end up getting cucked.… Read more »

Softek
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2nd Unplugging status: confirmed

Forge the Sky
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From the OP: “What are the traits of men, women are madly enslaved to? Is it confidence, is it strenght? NOPE. It is unpredictability, unstability, emotional COLDNESS, psychopathy! In this case he is more unstable than her, so SHE is trying to fix the relationship, she is trying to give them some rules, some stability, some “security”. She must do all the work, otherwise there is nothing. She fills the void. He who cares less…..” I’ve seen this happen. Hell, in a slightly less dark example – one of the strongest attractions I’ve seen a wife hold for a long-term… Read more »

bookooball
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bookooball
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Just another layer of make-up.

Forge the Sky
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Reading comments now and LeeLee hit what I was talking about quite well, in a different way. Also her bit about neoteny reminded me of a thought I had. A realization I had lately was how much I was still being manipulated by woman, even now. However, I don’t feel too bad about it. Women are designed to manipulate men. It’s just the biology acting as intended. Everything from the big eyes and high voice to the predisposition to Machiavellianism. That’s what a lot of women’s biology is designed to DO. Boobs? For manipulation. Trying to tell them not to… Read more »

benfromtexas
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I’ll never forget the first girl I pulled from a boyfriend in a business social circle. After we had a good time, she would tell me she liked being with me because I didn’t have a conscious effort of thinking & I was immoral. She said she loved the depravity she would experience with me. I remember secretly being severely offended by it. The girl, at that time, didn’t know me enough to say that. If she did know me, then she would know of my volunteer charity work & how I’m a well established mentor in my field. I… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Jeremy

“This seems to say that women have their own form of in-bred idealism that is just as destructive to society as male idealism.”

Men are altruistic as well. Just not so much to other men. So it’s not female-unique.

Also, your assertion that altruism opposes evolutionary process assumes a non-cooperative species. Cooperative species benefit, in aggregate, from altruistic behavior and even self-sacrificial behavior – if done on behalf of genetic relatives.

Evolution gets complicated once you realize species evolve en masse.

SJF
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@Softek Is it really this bleak? No it is not. Softek, you are in the fog of war and you are hoping for a “completion in life”. Stop doing that. Women are not going to stop wanting commitment anymore than you want to stop having sex. It is who they are and how they will behave. So you better stop hoping for a completion and invest in the here and now . Love her for who she is and how she behaves. Or don’t Assume she is going to be how she is forever. If your woman’s mood is truly… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Softek It gets better. You learn how to create better frames. You’ve done fucking baller for a first relationship though. Hard to tell from over here whether your frame has flaws or whether she’s just not suited for the frame you’re trying to create. I kinda put this to you last thread, but it’s important: you’ll have a much easier time establishing a non-exclusive frame if you have more girls going, and she can enter your reality with that going on. From that continued circumstance of having multiple women, you can upgrade your favorite(s) as being a ‘girlfriend’ if it… Read more »

SJF
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Hey Forge,

I just realized what I just commented on parallels what you said @ 10:50 without me having read yours. How’d that happen?

Forge the Sky
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Incidentally, how the hell does one fuck a girl in the bathroom at a bar/nightclub? YaReally and Glenn have both mentioned doing so recently and I still don’t see it. Bathrooms are crowded in all the clubs I’ve been, you’d get busted before you walked thru the door. The only exception is really fancy restaurants where the bathrooms are individual lockable rooms, but even then there’s often a line to stand in awkwardly for 5 minutes. Hardly conducive to a reckless crazy impulse like fucking her in the bathroom. I’d like to have this in the repertoire tho. Info appreciated.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@SJF

I was gonna say something like ’cause it’s true; we tend to converge on truth here!’

But then I realized the obvious answer.

Aliens.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/cryptidz/images/6/6b/Aliens-meme.jpg

zip
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zip
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Gravitational Law #3

Womem always bring the WORST out of men.

ShanksNes (@ShanksNes)
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@SJF

Assume she is going to be how she is forever. If your woman’s mood is truly intolerable to you, then you should leave her and don’t look back. If you find her current mood is merely a hassle, realize that she will always seem that way to you. She is not going to all of the sudden not be emotionally chaotic and complicated.

Reminds me of the way of the superior man. A lot of word seem familiar. But yeah, trying to control women is useless.

SJF
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Well I did plagiarize paraphrase.

I try, but I’m less than an authentic writer. And I’m getting remedial help.

Good catch and props for reading his book.

ShanksNes (@ShanksNes)
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@SJF hehe.. no worries dude. We can only look far if we stand on the shoulders of giants.

scribblerg
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@Forge: Here’s the “repertoire” lol. – Get really drunk. – Start mawling some chick and get really horny. – Drag her into the bathroom, telling her you want to fuck her. – Fuck her Seriously though, it’s all about escalation. In one case, the chick was taking my dick out of my pants while we were sitting at a table with another couple across from us. Another time, I took the girl downstairs to near the bathrooms and began making out intensely and kind of dragged her into the bathroom. Yet another we went in to do some lines, several… Read more »

Striver
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The women choosing Charlie Sheen, the fuckup, over a John Wayne type is a tough thing for most men to grasp. Nature wants men to be idealistic. Nothing wrong with that. Nature spits out men, they all go off in their own directions. Whatever’s needed at that particular time wins. Could be strong guys, tough guys, social guys, conniving guys, smart guys. Now what’s confounding is that women are so ruthless in choosing the best men, then will actually choose the fuckup over the best man. I’m not really sure why nature has women do this, there must be a… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Striver – The idealist versus the cad – I feel like they are both within me and are at war with each other. Ever since I pulled myself back from the brink, 20 years ago with the crazy drinking and downward spiral emotionally, it’s like I’ve been running from the cad. A guy I worked with during those years told me there were “two Glenns”, Good Glenn and Evil Glenn. I wasn’t a Simpsons fan back then but this guy was and he would do a little dance in the office, singing, “I am evil Gle ehn.” On the Simpsons… Read more »

Edelweiss
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@ “always discerning” Your comments remind me of some videos I’ve seen on youtube, articles, and numerous comments on the two over the past year. They consisted of arguments and counter arguments between feminists, and anti-feminists. Example? The “why i’m not a feminist” responses. All of them women, or feminized men commenting. The debates never centered on whether men should provide resources, advantage, emotional support, etc. to women, but how it should be extracted from them. Feminists prefer legislative action, coercion, “re-educating” the masses, shaming, et. al, whereas “anti-feminists” prefer the softer approach of reinforcing traditional provider/white knight roles. With… Read more »

tickletik
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tickletik
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Too mich theorizing. Real science is needed.

Jimmy B
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Jimmy B
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As those truly in the know, know…”if it flies, floats or fucks, rent it!” wink

bo jangles
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Im a bit of a 1 percenter in that I’ve always been able to have sex for a 3-4 hours per session, and enough skill to make those hours unique. This seems to have an interesting effect on women. I almost never have to deal with jealousy, women dont even seem to see any infidelity. And women are generally about 85% happy(it was interesting when I learned game and started pushing my luck hard). Im wondering if sex quality is a strong alpha characteristic because it shows preselection(had to have lots of sex to get the skills), health and possibly… Read more »

zip
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zip
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Only slightly offtopic.

http://www.people.com/article/ashley-olsen-artist-man-charged-murder-florence

“Olsen’s boyfriend found her naked body …”

Divided Line
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@Jeremy “But altruism is an arguably bad thing for humanity. It is entirely contrary to the natural animal order of the world in which evolution operates. Individuals who do not care for themselves just don’t live as long as individual who do. Since society depends on the survival of many individuals, altruism really has no place in a voluntarily cooperative society.”

A voluntarily cooperative society is already an altruistic one. Why not just enslave people and force them to give over their resources and labor if you’re the stronger one?

Garnet
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@bo jangles

‘Im wondering if sex quality is a strong alpha characteristic because it shows preselection(had to have lots of sex to get the skills), health and possibly fidelity (if hes fucking you that much he couldnt be fucking someone else).’

It could be the other way round i.e. an alpha mindset leading to great sex. Are you familiar with ‘The Sex God Method’? It places more emphasis on creating strong emotions through dominance etc. and considers technique only as an afterthought.

So you probably experience a positive feedback loop in which dominance breeds success and success breeds dominance ad infinitum.

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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Speaking from personal experience here to what the article seems to quote. I mean I am relatively younger so I don’t know how much this will apply. However, in my early 20s till about ages of 25 I was emotionally unstable as fuck. The sex was easy, it would come easy and it was dirty and weird as fuck. Back then I had a concept of game and I would game my targets and women would respond to it positively, though it seemed to be that my emotional instability would provide for excitement for women. When I was happy the… Read more »

Divided Line
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Could women have possibly made sex, relationships, and dating more incoherent and miserable? Sometimes I’ll be reading blogs and thinking about this shit and I’m struck with how needlessly difficult all this is. Think about it. All women would have to do is actually want the shit they say they want, and we could all fuck, have kids and successful marriages, and think about something else, like fixing problems, building things, and generally making the world a less shitty place to live in. It’s like a black comedy, a dystopian satire. Our entire existence is predicated upon and subservient to… Read more »

zip
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zip
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@Jeremy

“But altruism is an arguably bad thing for humanity. It is entirely contrary to the natural animal order of the world in which evolution operates.”

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chimpanzees+altruism

Garnet
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@ Rollo Great article outlining the parallels between positive masculinity and emotional polarity but it raises some questions for me. I accept ‘alpha’ is a state of mind and not a demographic (even though it does form a small percentage of men), but are there degrees of alpha? Or are all alphas situational/contextual on a fundamental level and they have to continually expand their frames to avoid becoming domain dependent? I ask because true positive masculinity seems to imply a stronger frame than the ‘lothario’ approach of generating emotional polarity. Have you observed these two approaches clashing and if so… Read more »

Divided Line
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It’s a shame that embittered omega game isn’t possible. Or is it?

zip
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zip
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@ divided

not at this planet.

c1hvh
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“They want a Beta with a side of Alpha – in essence a better slave; one that’s just ignorant enough of female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies their need for amused mastery, masculine dominance (when it’s convenient and affirming), and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needs to be made aware of women’s nature.”

Can’t you do that WITHOUT being a slave? Can’t you give comfort and security in your own terms, and also “Just Get It and satisfy her need for amused mastery and dominance”?

c1hvh
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“Toxic” is a trigger word for me. Fuck this noise. Masculinity (and anything receiving that label recently) is not “toxic”, i.e. it’s not chemically poisoning your body. In their point of view, it is “bothersome”, at most.

fleezer
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“She said she loved the depravity she would experience with me.” so it’s not just indifference that’s attractive, but depraved indifference. see state crimimal statutes for further info on making pussies wet. this post made me think of the sexy sons hypothesis. when a woman gives birth to a girl she knows what that girl will be like. awalt. but when it comes to her son it could go lots of different ways. it makes sense that she would want her son to be an unstable depraved sex maniac because that kind of son gives her genes the best chance… Read more »

YaReally
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Andy
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Andy
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“One thing I’m now doing for self-improvement is stopping myself whenever I start to feel like I’m pandering, pedestalizing, over-compensating and let the feeling pass. Is this a ‘reaction’ to some ‘need’? If it is, I stop. If the behavior is a genuine proactive gesture then I proceed. ” “Also, the one side-effect of the manosphere is the over-compensation for past beta behaviours which leads to uncalibrated responses which can be plain off-putting.” @walawala Working on that myself. I think we all should. “This seems to say that women have their own form of in-bred idealism that is just as… Read more »

Robert What?
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Robert What?
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Looking through the lense of Evolutionary Psychology, what is/was the evolutionary benefit to women to be turned on by (ie, want to mate with) emotionally unstable men?

Tim
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“It’s a logical trap that most MGTOWs find themselves in – they want a world where their performance burden is removed with regard to women, but still refuse to accept that this burden exists independent from women’s perceptions.” I’m a MGTOW and suffer no such performance burden. As far as women go, I can take them or leave them – and I mostly leave them. As a result of internalizing and practicing the MGTOW mindset, I no longer suffer any performance burden – other than what’s stolen from me by women and their white knight boot lickers through taxes to… Read more »

SJF
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What?

That is a leading the witness question.

“…..emotionally unstable men?”

Women aren’t turned on because a man is emotionally unstable. They can be turned on despite a man being emotionally unstable. I’m sure you grasp the concept of AF/BB and the desire woman have is contextual depending on timing in her life, her environment (primitive vs.socialized, provisioning for her and children, etc.) Women are turned on by perceived alpha contextual clues as part of their evolutionary firmware.

scribblerg
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@Jeremy & Zip – With respect to altruism, this idea is well covered in evolutionary theory, referred to as “eusociality”. I’m a complete neophyte on this stuff, and my knowledge of it has come mainly from reading E. O. Wilson’s The Social Conquest of Earth. But it is a fascinating topic. Worker ants engage in eusociality, in ant colonies. One could say, at a meta level, that since 50% or so of men will not get to pass on their genetic material, that they are usocial. Another surprising angle on “altruism” comes from Adam Smith in his Theory of Moral… Read more »

kfg
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“If women just chose the best men, if strong or tall or smart or whatever was dominant in that generation wins, there wouldn’t be enough variety in the gene pool for when conditions change.” Right. Although actually there will be a dominant trait, other traits cannot fall below a certain percentage without risk of damaging group survival ability. 5% seems to be the magic number for maintaining a useful trait in useful numbers. Why are there “night people?” Because having some people around who will see the goblins coming over the hill while the majority are sleeping can save the… Read more »

lh
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Looking through the lense of Evolutionary Psychology, what is/was the evolutionary benefit to women to be turned on by (ie, want to mate with) emotionally unstable men? You can understand that from a machiavellian perspective: If someone is totally predictable, you can go right to his limits and be save. If someone isn’t predictable you have to keep some distance to the limits out of caution. Therefor being unpredictable will give you more “space” without having to defend your actual limits. This is strength and women love strength. Ronald Reagan btw. used such tactics to defeat the USSR. He intentionally… Read more »

mersonia
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@SJF @Scribbleberg @kfg

I still can’t fathom how you interact with actual humans in society.

“Fuck what you know. You need to forget about what you know, that’s your problem. Forget about what you think you know about life”

^ that would probably save you.

lh
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I’m a MGTOW and suffer no such performance burden. As far as women go, I can take them or leave them

This is a typical misconception of “performance”. A man doesn’t perform by doing what women like. A man does perform by doing what he likes and what is good for him – living and thinking from his own mental point of origin.
And therefor you actually perform. MGTOW’s are people still learning & practicing this performance. It is more difficult if you let women come closer for longer time, but the principle is the same.

Tim
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“This is a typical misconception of “performance”. A man doesn’t perform by doing what women like. A man does perform by doing what he likes and what is good for him – living and thinking from his own mental point of origin. And therefor you actually perform. MGTOW’s are people still learning & practicing this performance. It is more difficult if you let women come closer for longer time, but the principle is the same.” Good Lord I can’t take it. By not performing – I’m performing. I’m playing right into the enemies hands by not giving them what they… Read more »

SJF
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@Mersonia

Your comment is inscrutable and I fail to understand the context.

Please elaborate.

kfg
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@mersonia: “I still can’t fathom how you interact with actual humans in society.” Quite sociably. I smile and say hi to people, often complete strangers, as I pass them on the sidewalk. I remove other people’s garbage cans from the road, because it helps make a pleasant neighborhood environment for everybody. A convenient store manager took me aside a while ago to tell me that the employees had all agreed that I was their favorite customer to deal with and I am in demand as a dinner guest, because if I am there the odds of the evening being pleasant… Read more »

OrlanT2
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Obviously, a man needs to set his boundaries with a woman. Harder to achieve, but still achievable. And he definitely need to screen a woman for traits that are more compatible to his character and preferences. Women are unreliable, thus this talk from women about what is good for them has a tinge of “if I can’t have it, I’ll look elsewhere”, which is a threat in itself. What can a man do? Aside from his obligations to his relationship that may still fail, he should plan for the breakup.

Andy
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@sjf

He just doesn’t understand you like I do. wink

Completely off topic, but it gets hard to watch the guys in the anger phase once you’re past it. And I’m barely past it. lol. To anyone I blew up on… Sorry.

SJF
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@Andy

What can you tell me about myself?

As in: Critique me. And no, this is not a trick question, nor am I waiting to pounce.

Water Cannon Boy
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I’d describe Charlie Sheen as reckless more than a screw up. A persona of do everything in a blaze of glory. A screw up doesn’t appeal to women. At least somebody that I would describe as a screw up.
Reckless, even if you go down in a blaze of glory, you had to soar at some point before the crash. That high point of excitement is what women love. Well actually, the whole rise and fall together. Fun when you’re soaring, her life becomes dramatic when you’re not.
An actual screw up doesn’t get up in the air.

newlyaloof
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@Dutch, then tell her that if she decides to walk that:

Andy
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@sjf

haha hmmm… Like, I see pure intention behind the facade. But IMO, it seems kind of like you protect your ego. And maybe you take yourself a little too seriously. And sometimes your tone is unnecessarily condescending which can hurt your points despite their validity.

Of course I could be reading you completely wrong.

newlyaloof
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@Dutch, opps. Meant that to be in the previous post’s comment thread.

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