A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

733 comments on “A Teachable Moment

  1. (this is also why I walk past crying girls on bar nights lol I have buddies who will see that crying drunk girl sitting on the curb and try to play white knight and find out what’s wrong and help them but I just walk on past like they don’t exist ’cause it’s not worth the potential hassle. If I saw that chick who froze to death I would just close my blinds and maybe call 911 to mention her but I wouldn’t engage her or invite her in to warm up…if she’s walking around in the cold wasted and wearing shorts and no jacket I’m not gonna be the guy who’s apartment she wakes up and freaks out in when she sobers up.

    Unfortunately it’s the same thing with kids these days, way too much risk to go help a crying child and risk getting accused of being a pedo trying to kidnap them. Go feminism!)

  2. @Camaro
    Another video of your future:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEPoO08IMog

    Also record EVERYTHING. Any interaction that starts to escalate, get your phone out and hit record even if all you can get is audio. And any time you plan to have a conversation that COULD escalate, like telling her you want a divorce or telling her her behavior is unacceptable (lol like she cares) etc, set up the camera to record or keep it on you and record audio at the least. The jurors are gonna wanna see that stuff when she accuses you of beating her etc

  3. “A BPD woman is a very real and present danger for certain men. ”

    Dude, they murder BABIES! lol, Jesus. I think I have a post in Mod with links, but just go to google news and search for “borderline personality murder” Every fucking day these chicks are killing their boyfriends and children. Stay The Fuck AWAY.

  4. “But like I say, I wouldn’t recommend that shit to anyone. I have enough abundance that I can peace out on this one at any time with no fucks given and no looking back. Most guys aren’t in that situation.”

    I’ll cop to being inarticulate enough to not fully express my ideas at times. I’m working on that.

    ” BPD chicks are not actually a bad thing for most men.” should have had articulated “after they exit the relationship and screw their head back on straight and then move on down the road a bit”.

    Interestingly, I even said this to my good friend and mentor of whom I spoke of yesterday @the 10:42 mark in comments.

    He’s finalizing his divorce from a Certified BPD woman (really) this next week. He’ll be OK ….third wife, only 3 years or so, no kids together, (he’s as old as KFG, and pretty much as wise and wealthy as KFG. My friend is frequently identified as on par with the most interesting man in the world type of man.)

  5. @SJF – Let me take a simple stab at this. If you are self-possessed enough a man to not get sucked into a BPD woman’s madness, the phase where she goes sexually maniacal can be fun for a man who enjoys wild monkey-sex. I’ve always run from the crazies, mostly as an adaptive response to my abuse as a kid that came out of therapy. I evaluate women and when I detect the deep crazy, I exit. But I have done short stints with a couple of women who were probably BPD and their insane sexual appetites were fun. It is probably like playing with a volatile chemical or dynamite, but then again, men do both every day without killing themselves.

    A word on “web diagnoses”. While I am all for people like Rollo in particular (due to his actual psychological training) weighing in with well thought out advice and recos for men, and descriptions of BPD etc, I do think one should always be wary of diagnosing anyone based on the internet. Camaro is married – sure, it may be a mistake, but this is not like a new pair of shoes he bought. It was a major life decision and instead of getting out impulsively, as he likely got in impulsively, I recommend he be thoughtful and analytical.

    Let’s say there is an 80% chance Rollo is right – that means over 5 guys who come here with stories like Camaro’s, he will be wrong for one of them. We are getting self-reported third party accounts of someone’s behavior. Sure, be self-protecting Camaro and also look how your own psychology is playing into this. But also “measure twice and cut once”. I’d seek the advice of a solid professional who understands BPD and is on your side.

    In my case, consulting a psychologist who understands Childress’s clinical parental alienation model based on attachment theory (very different situation from having an ex-wife badmouth you to your kid) had me see so much more clearly what was going on with my daughter. Funnily (not in the ha-ha sense), we spent a good amount of the time focusing on my exwife’s psychology. Her Mom neglected her and left her Dad when she was 10. Mom became a bar floozy – her ambition in life – and my ex was left to be raised by older sisters while her Dad was demeaned. Turns out my ex likely has her own personality disorder, “Cover Narcissistic Personality Disorder”.

    But this only came to light after careful questioning by the psychologist. You see, covert NPDs are mostly only vicious in the ‘private social’ setting but are often very charming in public (and also rarely have any close friends or much of a social life beyond family, which is always dramatic too – ding, ding, my ex to a T). The shrink asked me many questions about her behavior and how we interacted. We discussed how my ex was triangulating and enmeshing wrt my daughter before our split. We also discussed my daughter’s flat effect with me – she literally feels no love for me. It’s not like she is angry with me, she actually finds me repulsive viscerally. This is a consequence of clinical parental alienation and is a consequence of an NPD parent’s response to the marriage failure and their inability to grieve it, which is clinical shit, not just the effect of my ex calling me a dick. She actually rarely did that. It was much more subtle – all this was explained in depth to my satisfaction by a professional who was on my side and knew what was what.

    These things are more complicated than a comment section on the web can deal with. I hope sharing a bit of my story helps. For me, getting the right psychological understanding was huge for me. A big part of my angst about my daughter was that I just could not understand it. When I got with the right shrink and she began to take me through it and explained it, it was like a puzzle piece fell into place and I began to be able to let go of the shame and anger of it all. You’ll know if she’s BPD quickly, a good shrink will help you figure it out in short order. In my case, I was stunned as the theory explained everything that had happened, including the pathology at work in my marriage. And oh yeah, my ex was an HB9, former homecoming queen/prom queen, petite strawberry blonde with green eyes and an ass you would want to eat breakfast off of. For a guy with low self-esteem like me, she was catnip. She did similar things as your wife does, when I’d really pull back, she did the 180 several times, but then always reverted back.

    Last. I would be shocked if she wasn’t cheating on you and not just with the ex…

  6. I keep a BPD chick around just for the practice of learning to handle them. Some nice little <25yo at the bar who throws a little shit-test is child's play after having the BPD chick test my frame like crazy. I literally keep this chick around to keep my frame tight.

    This is like the Walking Dead’s Michonne and her pet walkers

  7. @Andy
    “Dude, they murder BABIES!”

    Also that. But don’t worry, we’ll excuse them with “it’s just postpartum depression” or a million other excuses and let them off the hook.

    Once again I put forth the notion that Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (a growing trend where babies just mysteriously stop breathing and nobody is concerned about this, no autopsy or doctor can narrow down what’s mysteriously happening where babies just stop breathing and this isn’t viewed as some kind of plague crisis or some shit) is just chicks who regret having their kid or panic about the actual long-term realities of how hard raising a kid will be, holding a pillow over their face in the middle of the night as they make an emotional decision in the moment, and doctors etc can tell but just don’t want to say it because it goes against the Women Are Wonderful narrative and if it was widespread husbands would be murdering their wives and society would crumble because men wouldn’t risk having kids with women or marrying or we’d need some kind of 24 hour watch or something and society would be fucked.

    And yet we can watch how callously women can treat a man or other woman who they don’t care about or have 180’ed their feelings on, but the Women Are Wonderful narrative says they would NEVER do that to their own baby. Cue the image of the motherly woman nursing her newborn.

    Then imagine this Uber chick or the spazzing-in-the-car chick or Camaro’s chick having a newborn baby and resenting it for fucking up her body and being an inconvenience and keeping her awake all night and costing money and not being as cute as she thought etc…

    But hey maybe I’m just a crazy conspiracy kook lol

    P.S. The drunk girl in the first vid I linked with the Uber driver is a neurology student. They’re not just dumb white trash crazy bitches off Jerry Springer that do this stuff. Even Camaro’s lawyer (or whatever) wife can be bat-shit crazy. But crazier would be staying in the relationship.

    P.P.S. Camaro’s also an example of what I meant when I was talking about how society doesn’t want men to realize their value. If he understood that he has value as a man and with a little practice at pickup he could go out and get a better girl, he would bail on her. Instead social conditioning has him convinced that he thinks he’s such a worthless piece of shit that he can’t do better than her so he’ll stay with her and pop out babies and work himself to the bone to generate income to pay for them or to pay the alimony/child support etc and society will continue to function off his back till he offs himself to escape and no one will give it a second thought because men are disposable. Society WANTS you to feel like shit, it helps everyone…except YOU lol

  8. @redlight
    “This is like the Walking Dead’s Michonne and her pet walkers”

    lol btw her (female of course) therapist has convinced her it’s HEALTHY for couples to fight and that couples who don’t fight are hiding something. Which she’s taken to mean “just make shit up to fight about all the time”. She gets off on fucking after a fight, of course. But in this day and age where there are ZERO consequences for her taking it too far, it’s too risky a gamble to get involved with.

    @SJF
    “My friend is frequently identified as on par with the most interesting man in the world type of man.”

    Your friend is an anomaly with the resources to survive a BPD chick. 99.999999% of guys will be FUCKED for life from it.

    @scribblerg
    “I do think one should always be wary of diagnosing anyone based on the internet.”

    It doesn’t matter if she’s ACTUALLY BPD, like to medical standards or whatever. The point is she is CLEARLY FUCKING CRAZY, because she’s demonstrating that she’s clearly fucking crazy. And he is CLEARLY not equipped to handle it because he’s clearly not handling it or he wouldn’t be here.

    I had a buddy who’s first GF turned out to be like that and I was just like man, I feel bad for you because you have no idea you’ve stepped on a landmine as your first GF and you’re going to learn it the hard way. And he did…spent a year under court-ordered curfew waiting for the case (him “abusing” her aka she made shit up and stood in the doorway so he couldn’t leave and told the cops he hit her when he called them etc dude is still scarred for life from spending the weekend in jail and the whole year long shitshow) to go to trial before she finally dropped the charges because she was full of shit.

    If he had a kid with her (which he will soon, ’cause she’ll try to get preggers when she senses he wants to bail), then like ok MAYBE try to figure out some way to make that shit work and fix her. But right now he can get the fuck out scott-free with minimal loss and move on to better shit. This is exactly the type of chick who will put him through the same parental alienation you went through if he has kids with her, because she WILL cheat on him (if she isn’t already, which would surprise me) and he WILL end up divorced or separated down the road but with way more on the line.

    He doesn’t NEED to fix this. He has no stakes in this. He doesn’t need to understand her. He can get the fuck out and THEN talk to a therapist and describe how she acted and understand her. But GTFO while he can.

  9. “They’re not just dumb white trash crazy bitches off Jerry Springer that do this stuff.”

    Also, they can have a VERY normal, and actually quite personable and charming facade. Which is why they can manipulate therapists, judges, juries, anyone really. Like, personally I think even @YaReally is fucking crazy for associating with one. And I’m a huge fanboi.

    You can end up DEAD.

  10. @Andy
    “Also, they can have a VERY normal, and actually quite personable and charming facade. Which is why they can manipulate therapists, judges, juries, anyone really. Like, personally I think even @YaReally is fucking crazy for associating with one. And I’m a huge fanboi.”

    Oh it’s 100% a bad idea. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. But I also very thoroughly understand the risks etc and have taken precautions so that she can’t affect my actual life. She’s in another part of the country so 99% of it is just text stuff. If we were in the same city it would be a lot riskier lol I sure as shit would never LIVE with her. That would be fucking crazy.

  11. @YaReally

    Be CAREFUL man.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Zachary_Turner

    “On 4 November 2001, Turner made a total of three phone calls to Bagby’s residence in Latrobe. At approximately 1:00 p.m. local time, Turner embarked on a sixteen hour, 1,523 kilometre (946 mile) drive to Latrobe with her gun and ammunition inside a gun box in her Toyota Rav4. In the early morning of 5 November 2001, she confronted Bagby at his residence, “

  12. “Your friend is an anomaly with the resources to survive a BPD chick. 99.999999% of guys will be FUCKED for life from it.”

    “You can end up DEAD.”

    “Oh it’s 100% a bad idea. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. But I also very thoroughly understand the risks etc….”

    “Let me take a simple stab at this. If you are self-possessed enough a man to not get sucked into a BPD woman’s madness, the phase where she goes sexually maniacal can be fun for a man who enjoys wild monkey-sex.”

    “I don’t think SJF is not very susceptible to the to the sort of emotional lifewreck a BPD can pull on some men, so from his perspective it’s just ‘well whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.’”

    I’m glad someone invented the manosphere. I cosign what you guys are saying and re- up what I said.

    (And I want to go play/ work with with my 70cc pro chainsaw tomorrow on some 20 inch DBH trees at the farm after I close on my home refi at the bank tomorrow ( which has a shit ton of equity) , then re-up my HELOC after that because it expires next year. (And thanks to the gay guy couple with a black adopted child next door that moved in for the schools, the assessed value of our homes is sky high.)

  13. @YaReally

    “Once again I put forth the notion that Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (a growing trend where babies just mysteriously stop breathing and nobody is concerned about this, no autopsy or doctor can narrow down what’s mysteriously happening where babies just stop breathing and this isn’t viewed as some kind of plague crisis or some shit) is just chicks who regret having their kid or panic about the actual long-term realities of how hard raising a kid will be, holding a pillow over their face in the middle of the night as they make an emotional decision in the moment, and doctors etc can tell but just don’t want to say it because it goes against the Women Are Wonderful narrative and if it was widespread husbands would be murdering their wives and society would crumble because men wouldn’t risk having kids with women or marrying or we’d need some kind of 24 hour watch or something and society would be fucked.”

    That seems… disturbingly plausible.

  14. @YaReally

    re that vid with the red sweater girl…

    holy shit, that was hot!…lol…

    it looks like she’s just a bundle of sex wrapped around a hindbrain in search of an alpha stud…lol…looks likes she would have been fine with that guy dragging her out of the car and raping her on the hood…lol…(and he could have…except for social ramifications of course…like prison…lol)

    it looks just like ‘foreplay’…wrapped up in a giant shit test…lol…

    her mating “cues”:

    1:25 – preen…
    1:36 – as he ‘pushes back’ as he leans into the car… she gets a tingle…(watch her leg…lol)
    1:42 – preen
    2:55 – preen
    4:40 – “chase me”
    4:50 – preen

    no wonder the BPD sex is so intense…sexual hindbrain triggering wrapped in heighten adrenaline state cause by fight/flight enviro cues…lol…

    that’s got to ping your brain the same (or harder) than heroin…lol

  15. @SJF

    “(And thanks to the gay guy couple with a black adopted child next door that moved in for the schools, the assessed value of our homes is sky high.)”

    How does that work lol?

  16. @IAS, Re: Oxytocin

    Oxytocin proves lack of female Empathy
    http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/3/311.abstract

    The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men. These findings indicate that the oxytocinergic system differentially mediates compassion toward women and toward men, emphasizing an evolutionary perspective that views compassion as a caregiving behavior designed to help vulnerable individuals.

    There’s your female in-group bias in black & white, as well as explaining women’s lack of empathy towards men.

    Dark Side of Oxytocin
    http://theconversation.com/why-the-love-hormone-may-be-less-rosy-and-more-rose-than-we-thought-42102

  17. Re: the Uber chick… I just wonder, with everything that is known about game, what was the BEST thing the dude could have done to get her to stop acting that way so he didn’t go to jail or some shit when the cops showed up and she made up some crazy story? Should he have just acted like it was a cute tantrum she was throwing to get his attention, completely ignored the way she was acting and told her something like “If you’re a good girl and wait for me here, we’ll do X tomorrow.”

  18. Dutch,

    Two really nice gay guys have a black adopted child just short of first grade. They were in a suburban location with mediocre schools. So they choose a house right next to us. Because our school district is quite good and they were willing to pay top dollar before first grade started last fall.

    I was kind of annoyed. The neighbor wives and my wife and daughter thought that that would be “cute” to have some gay guys next door (because of MSM it is axiomatic that gay men are better than masculine hetero men). I see no benefit to that for me. I’d rather a smoking hot, hetero- BPD chick that wants to cuckold her husband move in next door. Or at least be eye candy.

    But anyway these guys are quite nice and normal to interact with and I have nothing against them being gay. They paid top dollar for their house and the comps. for my assessment to refi were spectacularly high. Instead if the house sold for a lower price. (the refinance is only 30% borrowed on the price of the home with an additional line of credit).

  19. “Men are upset that the Blue Pill is a lie because if true, it would allow lower value men to still have desire sex.”

    False statement.
    Upsetting is the realization that “being a man” has different meaning for men and women.
    And realization that to get laid you need to cultivate qualities of what would be considered qualities of a lesser man by any historical masculine measure.
    And realization that a neurotic wrack with weak impulse control has much higher chances to get laid than a man with strength and composure.

    Ultimate Blue Pill Ideal is not a society of whinny mommy’s boys begging for women intimacy because they are “nice” and deserve it.
    It is Sparta – society where male idealism and sacrificial nature was rewarded by sex and reproduction, no other questions asked.
    That’s what propelled that probably most masculine culture in the history of humankind to a society of Ubermensch – Blue Pill Idealism.
    Read Plutarch’s “Life of Lycurgus” for confirmation.

  20. SJF wrote:

    “I was kind of annoyed. The neighbor wives and my wife and daughter thought that that would be “cute” to have some gay guys next door (because of MSM it is axiomatic that gay men are better than masculine hetero men). I see no benefit to that for me. I’d rather a smoking hot, hetero- BPD chick that wants to cuckold her husband move in next door. Or at least be eye candy.”

    LMFAO!

    Sure, a hottie next door instead of gay guys could also be endless supply of soft dread material. BPD women are like crack for men. Fun for a while but that shit can literally kill you. SJF, so do you now have to prove you are more masculine than the gay guys? Are they openly flamers? Burden of performance? LOL

  21. “SJF, so do you now have to prove you are more masculine than the gay guys? Are they openly flamers? Burden of performance?”

    They are totally normal appearing and acting and seem like wonderful parents. No drama whatsoever. No competition, my wife is her normal nice self to them. I’m normal to them.

    The first time I met the one guy I called him the wrong name by accident the next time I said hi. By accident. By his reaction, I know to do that on purpose in the future. He was tense and it was an accidental neg.

    Also one time he came to the door to ask if it was OK to put up a slip-n-slide for the son on the property line during the hot summer. I was in the library in my boxer shorts and intentionally answered the door that way-in my underwear.

  22. @Avid Reader: http://therationalmale.com/tag/apex-fallacy/

    The majority of men in the Spartan empire were not even citizens and its fall has been blamed on the social power accorded to its women.

    ” . . . a man with strength and composure.”

    Is what a member of the ruling class wishes as properties of his indentured laborer.

    ” . . . a neurotic wrack with weak impulse control . . .”

    A thumbnail description of Adonis, who was also portrayed as a metro-sexual, skinny fat girly man.

  23. I think the girl I’ve been with has BPD.

    Very difficult coming out of 12-13+ whatever years incel, feeling like I finally got out and now being ensnared. I don’t feel like I can do this anymore.

    It’s a major mindfuck because I have no prior relationship experience. I have nothing to compare it to.

    What’s worse is I feel like my whole perception of sex has been distorted. I was at least somewhat optimistic about Game and being able to have sex/relationships as a normal part of my life. Now I just feel like I don’t want to have anything to do with it at all.

    Over the past several months I’ve dealt with things like being called “disgusting” for having looked at porn, then her asking if she made a video of her fucking other guys and sent it to me, would I jerk off to it, insulting me, dehumanizing me, saying “I can get sexual pleasure from other people too, fuck you,” saying I made the choice to cum to those videos and I’m disgusting, I make her sick, I’m choosing ‘fantasy girls’ over her, also getting ripped apart for having looked at other girls at parties that she called ‘sluts’ and ripped them apart for wearing low cut dresses etc., saying I’m disgusting for being attracted to dumb sluts like that, etc., making her sick, so on so forth

    I can’t even see a popup on Facebook with a half naked girl without experiencing extreme anxiety, like I shouldn’t be looking at it, and I gave up on some other girls I was gaming out of guilt, and now I don’t want to have anything to do with this girl I’ve been seeing anymore either. I don’t feel like doing anything, like, I don’t want to fuck other girls, I don’t want to fuck her, I don’t want to go on porn, etc., I just want to disappear.

    I feel like my brain has been eviscerated. The mix of crazy hot sex, which is also the only sex I’ve ever had in my life, and the extremes of idealizing me, putting me on a pedestal, wanting me to save her, saying I’m the best thing that ever happened to her, then dehumanizing me and calling me disgusting, swearing at me etc.

    I just don’t feel like I was equipped to deal with any of this. Feel like I got slammed with everything all at once.

    Potentially BPD, also, she’s older than me and going thru the Epiphany/Transition phase, so the constant ultimatums of commitment or end the relationship….

    …mixed with the anxiety/stress of having been incel for 12-13+ whatever years, and thinking of going back to that.

    No rest for the weary. I’m trying as hard as I can to come back from all this but it’s a major headfuck. Been trying to be level headed but I haven’t really been talking to anyone about all this, and it’s a part of how I think it’s abusive — the secrecy and exclusion of outside perspectives, etc.

    Thought everything was great at first, finally having sex, etc., thought this is what I wanted. Woops. Lol.

    1. @Softek, she is a carbon copy of the BPD I wasted 3 years of my life with in my 20s. I mean right down to the bipolar love/hate shit with fantasy girls and even a casual glance at another girl on the street prompted grand mal seizures of irrational jealousy followed by disgust and denigration.

      Eject now. This is confirmed BPD behavior.

  24. @Dutchman

    the Uber chick… I just wonder, with everything that is known about game, what was the BEST thing the dude could have done to get her to stop acting that way so he didn’t go to jail or some shit when the cops showed up and she made up some crazy story?

    Game can’t save women from themselves. That woman chose to be belligerent. Doing what she wanted (give her a ride) just surrenders to her. Trying to charm her after she’s physically escalated and chosen to assault you is like jumping into a pig sty. At that point it’s survival, and too bad for her that she chose to get physical with someone bigger than her.

  25. @Softek: ” I gave up on some other girls I was gaming out of guilt . . .”

    And that is why you are where you are. What advice have you universally received here?

    Don’t commit to this girl.
    Spin plates.
    Fuck other girls.

    Snap the fuck out of it and do it.

    Then next the bitch.

  26. “Also one time he came to the door to ask if it was OK to put up a slip-n-slide for the son on the property line during the hot summer. I was in the library in my boxer shorts and intentionally answered the door that way-in my underwear.”

    Another round of LMFAO. Hilarious shit.

    Need some levity with the dark BPD stuff.

  27. @Andy: Indeed. There is no safe way to ditch a psycho, but the safest way I’ve found is to go complete supplicating wuss and let her monkey swing to some other poor bastard.

    Then go complete no contact.

  28. @kfg

    Yep, I got so good at manipulating mine that I convinced her it was her idea then lathered her up about being the best gf ever, and such a good person, etc, etc… lol. She was so delusional she believed it. One month later texts me that she was raped… Two months later threatens suicide if I don’t help her move. lol.

    What SJF says is right, as long as you make it out alive. Still, not something we should be advocating or joking about IMO.

  29. Softek, I would never try to hurt you after reading your stuff off and on for maybe over a year now, but I read your comment to my husband to try to get his perspective and he said,

    “Stop thinking with your fuckin dick and get the fuck out.

    Think with the head on your shoulders, not the one between your legs.”

    You men are so hard on each other… women would never say that.

  30. I’m not trying to hog bandwidth. Well maybe I am. And I’ll joke about it for sure because these are good illustrative cases for game. They prove the points.

    I would like to point out that if you Really listen to what YaReally and everybody else is saying about game, it is mindset, mindset, mindset.

    In regards to mentors, BPD chicks (danger, danger, Will Robinson….), financial matters, chainsaws, white gay neighbors with a black child (nothing wrong with that), losing out on the hot monkey-sex, adverse golf conditions………ETC.

    It is all about your mindset. You can choose to think any way you like about these things. You see how my mindset is these days? Shit I’m laughing about borderline personality disorder. And my good friend just got fucked over by it. (and he wasn’t crying when I went out with him two nights ago). I’m above the emotional fray of what my anecdotes usually would imply someone should think. Same with game. You see how emotionally rock solid YaReally is above the fray of crazy feminine beings?

    A guy should live on his edge to maximize himself, but some of this shit is a relative risk, not an absolute risk. You can sit home and whack off. That’s safer than going out and engaging with women who are potentially crazy.It is better to be rejected (or you reject her), than have regret of not having had experiences in life and to really be alive every day with strength, courage, mastery and honor among your fellow men.

    That thing that YaReally was mentioning about slight exposure to the BPD chick is what Nassim Taleb talks about in Antifragile as hormesis. That is slightly different than what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Hormesis is an example of mild antifragility, where the stressor is a poisonous substance and the antifragile becomes better overall from a small dose of the stressor.

    Hormesis is the term for generally favorable biological responses to low exposures to toxins and other stressors. It comes from Greek hórmēsis “rapid motion, eagerness”, itself from ancient Greek hormáein “to set in motion, impel, urge on”. A pollutant or toxin showing hormesis thus has the opposite effect in small doses as in large doses. A related concept is Mithridatism, which refers to the willful exposure to toxins in an attempt to develop immunity against them.

  31. @all

    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmrfwnNGlQ1qby36ho1_400.gif

    TBP, TRP, whatever rule set you can think of really doesn’t matter that much.The power comes from whoever is making the rules, not the rules themselves.

    Naturals spout TBP shit all the time and still slay effortlessly. Why? They have such a strong inner core and frame that it doesn’t matter.

    TRP helps a lot of guys because at the very least, if they follow those rules very literally and don’t deviate, they will have more success than if they did the same with TBP. it’s like training wheels in a lot of ways. it’s like ‘ya, the world isn’t all that it appears to be.’

    but eventually, you need to figure out who YOU are….what YOU believe…and what reality YOU want to create.

    so this whole choice between ‘abandoning’ TBP or adopting the ‘bleakness’ of TRP completely MISSES THE POINT.

    it’s not that you believe TBP. that’s not even the problem. the problem is that you want TBP to be true while at the SAME TIME not wanting to put in the WORK to create a reality where TBP is true.

    if Brad Pitt wants to create the most buttgay bluepill reality around himself imaginable (and shit, the dude is super nice, has a super diverse family, talks in very feel-good terms, etc.) he CAN DO THAT. and he can SUCCEED. because he is high value and is devoted TRULY to those beliefs and is willing to SACRIFICE for them…like, if one of his buddies was like ‘nah fuck Africa’ or something, he’d probably just sort of X that dude out of his life and move on, rather than trying desperately to compromise.

    TBP came from somewhere, guys. it came from high value guys creating a certain reality.

    here’s a vid with Will Smith:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmpHP_T6CqY

    zoom to around 1:00 where he talks about 2+2 = 5.
    this bullshit is how naturals think lol

  32. Whoever posted about Antifragile and Nassim Taleb – is it as good as his previous books? I read reviews saying it wasn’t great and never read it but his earlier books (Fooled By Randomness and Black Swan) made a huge impact on how I thought about the world in my twenties.

    In particular, his obsession with empiricism – just a fancy way of saying you need to observe how the world actually works and how things happen and then develop theories based off of that instead of having a theory and forcing facts to fit your theories.

    At the time I didn’t think of it in the context of the red pill or PUA, but of course – that’s how all of us came to the conclusion that this stuff is true, even though everyone was telling us it couldn’t be true – because we SAW IT WORKED (I did a Mystery Method course nearly ten years ago before getting locked into a long LTR, and I still remember the week after the course at a party, and using a standard MM neg on a HB8 and SEEING her eyes sparkle and her inviting me to go get a private drink..I was too inexperienced to close her but to this day I remember this jolt of thinking “OMG. This stuff WORKS!”).

    PS – Work downtime for me now till the end of the month. Several nights out + online/Tinder dates planned. Gonna be a whole bunch of FRs from me soon…

  33. There is no safe way to ditch a psycho, but the safest way I’ve found is to go complete supplicating wuss and let her monkey swing to some other poor bastard.

    Then go complete no contact.

    Slight change. Supplication risks becoming a beta orbiter (less sex, same drama). Instead become a self-absorbed wuss. Fail all shit tests and whine constantly about yourself.

    Her: Where should we go for dinner?
    You: I don’t know. I can’t decide anything anymore. I can’t figure out if I should buy white or brown bread. I mean one is better for you, I think, but if I cut the crusts off does it matter?

    Her: You are disgusting for looking at porn!
    You: I am. I can’t even figure out what I like anymore. I look at futa porn and the girls got big dicks, and I think maybe I’m gay. I look at MILF porn and that means I got mommy issues I guess. I’m so fucked up.
    Her: If I made a video of me fucking other guys and sent it to you would you jerk off to it?
    You: I would try to, I think. I just don’t know anymore, I’m so lost. The video might turn me on, I’m so sick. Maybe I should see a sex therapist.

  34. @Redlight: My strategy was bicameral. That sort of spineless indecision is embedded in the wuss part.

    Basically, invert normal game. Everything you aren’t supposed to do because it makes women gag and clamp their legs shut – do that.

    ” . . . risks becoming a beta orbiter . . .”

    The end game is critical. As soon she as finds her new sucker (and see Rollo’s comments about BPD’s cuckolding their marks. She will find another mark); NO contact! And “no” means NO.

    If you’re lucky, a BPD will no contact you, they don’t treat exes as other women often do. I’ve had one go from having stars in her eyes to looking right through me as if I didn’t exist (and I mean that literally, not metaphorically. It was freakiest thing I’ve ever experienced) in the space of a few seconds.

    And God help the poor bastard who has oneitis for a BPD who pulls that on him.

  35. Addendum:

    But if you’re already in too deep you may have no option but to run for it. That can utterly destroy your life, but at least it leaves you alive to regain your sanity and rebuild it.

    Have a go bag.
    Have a safe house.

    3. . .2. . .1 . . .Go! may be all the time you get to get out.

    And then NO.FUCKING.CONTACT.

  36. @Culum Struan

    Don’t call me whoever.

    Antifragile is excellent. The reviewers that gave it bad reviews couldn’t read. The author has an odd style of rambling and jumping around with thoughts. In a genius kind of way

    Definitely great on Stoicism and Game mindset. Like I mentioned, Julian from RSD and I believe Tyler mention it in their videos on mindset.

  37. “And then NO.FUCKING.CONTACT.”

    I port all my old phone numbers over to google voice when I change them. The BPD I dated still sends me a happy birthday text every year. A DECADE LATER… LOL. Fucking CREEEEPY… I still would not be surprised if she murdered my family some day. But you know. Live on the edge! Date a BPD!

  38. I was curious and started digging up research on sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). I wrote like a thousand words steelmanning the position that maybe a lot more mothers are asphyxiating their children than most people would be prepared to expect, but I deleted it because it was super boring to someone not involved in research.

    So, the Spark Notes:

    -SIDS really really looks like asphyxiation in about 80% of cases. This is non-controversial; the debate is how the asphyxiation happens.
    -Theories about babies turning facedown, getting caught in a position they can’t breath, etc. may account for some of it but in many cases doesn’t match the evidence.
    -So there’s some huge handwaving thing about how maybe some mix of factors makes it so an infant’s breathing reflexes just stop working right, but no-one has any clear evidence and specific theories about how this could happen abound. It’s not a ridiculous argument – a lot of things have to happen for a kid to develop right – but it does seem like a sort of ‘God of the Gaps’ style argument to avoid confronting an uncomfortable possibility.
    -The papers cite numbers that less than five percent of SIDS victims were deliberately suffocated, but all the numbers are based on fairly strong assumptions, small studies, or else just cite each other as ‘evidence’ ad infinitum.
    -Papers out there that directly talk about how many SIDS deaths are actually infanticide come at it from the angle of how important it is to listen and be supportive of the parents during this very trying time and to not cast unwarranted suspicion on them. Bias yo.
    -Weirdly, SIDS is 5 to 7 times (!) as common in certain ethnic groups, such as Native American, black American, Australian aborigine, and Maiori. All marginalized/disadvantaged groups.

    Not nearly enough to draw strong conclusions, but I think that suspicion is unfortunately not at all ridiculous.

  39. Given the right conditions “nurturing” mothers kill their own across the animal kingdom. Some of them even eat them.

  40. @Andy

    Live on the edge! Date a BPD!

    Been there, done that. She’s trying to send me the scarf. No really, apparently she knitted me one after I felt I could learn nothing more from bothering with her and ghosted. Wants to send me the shit. I want nothing more to do with her. They’re good Frame practice for a while, then they just become annoying, then straight up dangerous. If you value your life, you stop before dangerous.

    @Softek

    You know man, I am not a guy with abundance mentality by any stretch. I can’t find any place where I consistently meet enjoyable, cute, pre-Wall, non-psycho chicks consistently so it’s really hard to manifest an abundance mentality with them. However, when it comes to fatties, single moms, and hot BPD chicks? Dude, bro, those are fucking everywhere. Why do you think I don’t bother with them anymore? If you’re with an attractive but insane BPD, you could have another one by TONIGHT if you ditch the bitch. They are genuinely abundant as hell in the single populace.

    You’ll be out absolutely nothing if you toss the one you’ve got. You just get to hit the reset button and go early relationship with a similarly hot but crazy bitch. FUMPs (Fat/Ugly/Mom/Psycho) are plentiful. Do not even begin to Oneitis any woman in that class. Cute psycho bitches are easy to find; if a woman’s shit testing you constantly and making you crazy, you need to keep some other ass around and soft or hard next her. Give her some dread, make her get her ass in line, or show her the door. She’s incredibly replaceable.

  41. @Camaro @all

    Here comes a big one, enjoy lol:

    BTW we call them Cluster-B girls rather than just BPD because there’s a bunch of disorders or whatever involved and generally the nuances of which parts and pieces she has don’t matter much…it’s all a barrel of crazy that guys should run away from lol

    DISCLAIMER: None of the following is implying in any way that any guy, especially one IN one of these relationships, should attempt to learn how to handle these girls…you can’t learn to tame a lion when it’s already gnawing your leg off. GTFO and stay away from the lion den entirely if you can.

    That said, for the sake of the knowledge-base of how human psychology and shit works:

    If you have a REALLY rock-solid frame, you can handle a lot of this stuff. A lot of that crazy behavior is based on her just having a need for positive and negative emotions (the full rollercoaster). When you, trying to be a good boyfriend following the Blue Pill Disney script, only give her positive emotions, she gets antsy the same way you would if the only movies you were allowed to watch were happy ones where nothing goes wrong and everyone is just happy and pleasant all the time…over time you would start to crave the negative emotions of a good thriller or horror movie or just SOMETHING to make you feel alive. Like I say, we pay money to experience this when we go to the theater. Dread game and flirting with a waitress in front of your girlfriend is giving her minor drama and we accept that they need this sometimes. Cluster-B chicks are often just a really extreme version of this, like they want that rollercoaster more frequently than other girls and want it to go higher and lower than other girls need it to go to scratch that itch. That’s why they’re I LOVE YOU AND CAN’T LIVE WITHOUT YOU AND I’LL KILL MYSELF IF YOU LEAVE ME one minute and I FUCKING HATE YOU YOU RUINED MY LIFE I WISH YOU WERE DEAD the next minute…they’re craving just a really extreme rollercoaster. There’s probably faulty wiring in their brain, but like, their behavior isn’t “random” and “unpredictable” when you understand this concept.

    When you look at those videos I posted through that frame, all that Uber chick is trying to do is get SOMEONE to smack her down, ideally an alpha male who puts her in her place and then fucks the shit out of her as the climax to her emotional rollercoaster (that’s why the Uber chick’s subcomms come off as her needing to get fucked). She’s creating drama because no one will give it to her (if the driver smacks her down, 50 white knights kill him or he goes to jail etc). And because no one will stop her, she just keeps escalating it. In the second video with the crazy car ride chick, again the guy won’t give her the drama she’s craving so she just creates it. Their home life is probably a LOT like that car ride where he’s just chill and she’s flipping her shit because she wants drama but has married a guy who doesn’t provide or get sucked into it. So again her behavior escalates.

    In the olden days, guys wouldn’t take this shit. They would smack the chick down and fuck the shit out of her for acting up. See Clint Eastwood in that rapey scene in that one movie that I’m too lazy to go YouTube search for. There was a time where the chick acting up would GET that smackdown and fucking she needs and then she’s purring like a kitten in love with you because she’s on the other extreme end of the rollercoaster. And there are certain types of guys who can handle a relationship with those girls because they will just go Clint Eastwood on her ass, or enjoy the drama themselves etc.

    The problem is society in 2016 is structured in such a way that any guy who tries to give these girls the smack-down they’re demanding will face massive consequences, immediate AND long-term. So guys are kind of neutered, like that Uber driver who can’t do anything about her destroying his car. Because guys can’t do anything to stop it, the behavior escalates. And even if a guy DOES something, he would have to trust that he calibrates it perfectly and the girl doesn’t get mad at him in the future etc and doesn’t decide to say it was rape and press charges. So like that Clint Eastwood move would PROBABLY have the girl purring like a kitten happy she’s found a “real man” afterward, but that’s a MASSIVE gamble in 2016 and more likely he would be fucked himself…or even worse she would love it and he falls into a false sense of security but then one day he wants to leave her and THAT’S when she goes full crazy on him.

    Then on top of that guys have no idea about any of this shit, and are brought up on Women Are Wonderful Disney Blue Pill thinking and they get involved with these girls expecting the best of other human beings, and because the sex is great lol And the girl hides her crazy long enough to get him fully invested so that it’s harder for him to bail, and any slip-ups she makes he’ll brush off or talk himself out of thinking are legit because he’s in scarcity and believes in True Love and all…but once she knows he won’t leave (which he demonstrates by forgiving and further committing to her after she’s shown some crazy, or by not leaving when she shows some crazy signs and excusing it etc for her), she starts letting out more and more crazy, especially because the boyfriend is trying to make things work and he’s focusing on “if I just give her good emotions maybe she won’t be like this” because Blue Pill conditioning has convinced him to take the actively wrong action of “happy wife, happy life” appeasement to try to solve it. He sees a lashing out of negative emotions and thinks “Disney told me women only want good emotions so I’ll make sure she always only feels good emotions” (meanwhile we ignore the whole movie theater thing that’s staring us all right in the face).

    On top of THAT, society tells men we’re worthless so usually these girls are hot and these guys are in scarcity and think they can’t get another girl. And they’re following the Blue Pill script of “if I give her good emotions maybe she’ll settle down”, so they further commit to these girls and next thing you know they’re married to them maybe with kids and now they’re REALLY locked in and she can REALLY go full-tilt crazy mode because she instinctively knows he can’t leave so it’s safe to let the whole shitshow out. And even a guy who was holding his frame at the start, when it’s day in and day out constant crazy eventually that guy gets worn down by it.

    And then to top it off most guys never study pickup and learn anything about shit-tests or handling crazy chicks and drama, so they’re just not equipped for this. I have the reputation among my friends of “give YaReally the crazy bitch in the group” because they scare my buddies but I eat them for breakfast. They’ll see us interact and go back and forth with drama, or I’ll send screencaps of our conversations and they’re just like “holy shit that chick is going to kill you in your sleep” but because I understand the psychology of what’s going on those girls are generally purring kittens for me and I keep them at a far enough distance that I’m able to walk away with minor consequences/risk (compared to the guys who actually DATE them).

    So add all that up and now you’ve got a chick who’s craving an exceptional level of negative emotions and drama, legally tied to and living with a guy who’s determined to only give her good emotions and feels too worthless to leave her, and EVERYONE in society will take her side in everything (except in Red Pill forums like this) and he’ll get gas-lit into believing it’s his fault etc etc etc

    Fucking nightmare situation, a recipe for disaster and the “solutions” are part of what’s causing the “problem”.

    So what’s the solution? Aside from keeping a wide berth which is what you SHOULD do.

    But again for the sake of the knowledge-base:

    One funny way to handle them is to do exactly what she’s doing, back to her. When my crazy chick tries to pick a fight, I just bring up (or make up lol) a time SHE slipped up and turn things back around on her to switch it from me being on the defensive to HER being on the defensive as fast as possible…either one feeds her need for drama and an emotional rollercoaster. Us guys get caught up in “but she’s mad about this specific thing” or “but she says she’s going to kill herself” etc, because we’re logical…the same way we get caught up in “but what did you SAY to her when you picked that girl up??” because we aren’t looking at the subcommunication of what’s going on. Just like how in pickup it doesn’t really matter to her what the words you two are saying are, the Cluster-B isn’t ACTUALLY mad about the thing she’s coming to you upset about, and she isn’t ACTUALLY thinking of killing herself (unless you let that shit go on and escalate for so long that she knows she can prevent you leaving by an “attempt” (that somehow is timed so you save her just in the nick of time, funny how that goes) to kill herself).

    So in a WAY you could boil this down to just a massive form of shit-testing, which I know will rub guys who’ve dated these girls the wrong way because that sounds like such a belittling summary of what was a hugely traumatic period of their life. But most of the guys who’ve dated those girls were in that “unequipped to handle it, didn’t notice the signs till it was too late, following the wrong script to try to fix it, too invested to walk away” etc stage I described above. A good example is to check my archives for walawala’s adventures with his crazy bitch last year(?). I was able to help coach him through it because for him it was way over his head seemingly random shit, but for me it’s like “ok now she’s doing this, so do this in response” etc. Human behavior isn’t unpredictable, Coca Cola doesn’t just throw billions of dollars at marketing groups on a whim…but it benefits society for women to be SEEMINGLY impossible to understand because that’s how you get roped into long-term commitment with these chicks and work your job and pop out babies and keep society going even if you’re miserable (don’t worry, you can numb yourself with Netflix and drugs and booze and videogames etc).

    So she may come at me with something like “I know you were fucking that bitch on NYE”. Most guys will try to appease this and defend themselves and try to turn it into good emotions like “baby I told you I haven’t talked to her in months I was with my buddies”…but I know when I get a text like that that she needs a fix of drama so I’ll just feed it to her over the top and try to put her on the defensive because I know she doesn’t ACTUALLY think/know/care that I was with some other girl, she’s subcommunicating that she needs drama, so if I give her ANYTHING to claw at, she’ll go for it because it’s the drama she’s after more than the specific thing she’s talking about. I could respond with something like “no I’m seeing her tomorrow”, but that keeps the focus on her attacking me which escalates fast. What I want to do is turn it around so that SHE’S on the defensive (like running from a house cat that’s clawing at you VS stepping into it…running triggers it’s “this is prey” instinct and it chases you and escalates things, but stepping into it forces it to abort it’s attack and go on the defensive).

    So instead I’ll reply with something like “wtf do you care you were too busy sucking dick all night to even txt me a happy new year at midnight. thanks for not giving a fuck about me” It doesn’t even really make sense, but she doesn’t care about a logical conversation/discussion (which is why you can’t smooth over these fights (except when she’s gotten enough drama and will forgive you but then she brings it up again in another fight)). All she cares about is the emotions and the rollercoaster ride. A response/accusation like this puts her on the defensive which is still drama so generally she’ll jump on it and respond with something like “you didn’t txt ME happy new year either! you were too busy with your bar skanks”

    A lot of guys will see that and think “I have to smooth this over” and respond with like “my phone died I swear, I wasn’t even at the bar I told you I was with Bob and Joe all night, we were playing poker, I txted you as soon as I found a plug-in for my phone” But she doesn’t WANT appeasement, she doesn’t WANT the negative emotions to end because that’s WHY she’s picking this fight, to go on the rollercoaster, so that kind of response will usually just get her picking MORE of a fight like “ya right you always say that, you don’t even care about me I should just kill myself you wouldn’t even be sad if I did” etc and the guy, trying to smooth things over and only give her good emotions, will send something like “baby I love you, don’t hurt yourself okay? are you okay? do you want me to come home? I love you so much” etc

    But I would instead be responding something like “i didn’t txt cause I wanted to see if you actually gave a shit and would txt me. guess only one of us cares about this relationship. your new years resolution should be to quit whoring around with David from your office i know you two have been fucking behind my back” Again this kind of thing is flipping it around to put her on the defensive…and since what she’s after is just an emotional rollercoaster drama ride, her being on the defensive is just as good as her being on the offensive, as long as she gets her drama fix, just like when you go to a movie whether the main character wins or dies you come out of the theater satisfied with your purchase because you paid money to experience a rollercoaster of emotions. Braveheart has a fucking horrible depressing ending, but damned if that’s not a good movie.

    Because I’m turning things around on her to put her on the defensive, instead of ending up down the “her getting more and more mad at me and coming up with more and more stuff to be mad about and escalating to threatening to kill herself”, I’ll get a response like “omg i was at home drinking wine with my girlfriends I wasn’t even with another guy and I’m not fucking David he just flirts with me” to which I’ll keep things going with something like “ya and you lead him on. you’re lucky I even come home to you with the way you treat me I can’t believe I thought you loved me” and I’ll start slowly turning things toward forgiving her for a completely made up thing, which is the climax/resolution of the movie and gets her down the path of responding with stuff like “I DO love you but you don’t appreciate me enough” and from there we’re out of the danger zone and into pretty easy shit-testing. She’s got her drama fix, I’ve helped send her on an emotional rollercoaster ride of extreme negative and positive emotions, and if we’re in the same room that’s where I would just throw her down and fuck her, or via txt I’ll just handle the rest of the easy tests till we’re back to normal and she’s telling me she loves me.

    And if she needs a BIG rollercoaster I’ll often just accuse her of something and then go radio silent for a while. Like “hard to appreciate a girl who I SAW out at lunch with David on Monday and is now LYING to me about it” and then go radio silent while she sends a bunch of “that wasn’t me omg you’re delusional” and “you’re too controlling I need a man who isn’t so jealous” and “I might as well just kill myself you don’t even care about me” and “wow you don’t even care I thought so” that fills my phone but gets no response. Often she’ll end up solving her own problem once she realizes the rollercoaster ride is over and then she’ll send me cute funny stuff trying to get me to response (see “rolodex” in my archive for walawala’s adventures with that, basically she’ll try a bunch of different stuff to get my attention, and whatever I respond to is what she learns “this is how to get his attention”…so when you respond to the “I’ll kill myself” stuff that teaches her that the way to get your attention is to threaten to kill herself which most guys won’t ignore and guess how that one turns out in the long-run lol, but when you only respond to when she’s trying to be cute etc (as she goes through her rolodex of methods), she learns that calming down and being cute is the way to get your attention back once you go radio silent after a rollercoaster ride).

    Note that at no point in these fights am I ACTUALLY worked up. I’m actually lol’ing half the time when I’m in these exchanges because I know what’s going on. I know I’m just feeding her what she needs. SHE’S worked up, but I’m actually just txting in-between making a sandwich or taking a dump or whatever.

    So TECHNICALLY these girls CAN be handled…but 1) it’s not worth it (despite the sex lol), 2) it takes a LOT of work and can be very emotionally draining, I know guys who will read my text exchanges and are drained just from READING them because it’s like “holy shit how can you deal with this”, and 3) do you want to do this for the REST OF YOUR FUCKING LIFE? lol like it’s fun here and there, but imagine 40 years of having to purposely engage fights and have all this drama and if you slip up once it escalates…some guys are wired to handle that naturally but they’re a very small minority and are taking a huge risk in 2016 with all the legal shit on the girl’s side, and 99.9999% of guys would get worn down FAST, which would cause things to escalate into full “kill myself” territory. I know I sure wouldn’t want to deal with this chick living with me and us having DAILY fights at home AND in public etc like fuck that, that’s not a happy life to me lol Also this stuff is dancing on the brink of the Grand Canyon…like, when you escalate the fight on purpose, if you fuck up you’ve just made the consequences that much higher. Like getting a dog overly excited playfighting with him, if you wear him out safely he’ll chill out and calm down from exhaustion but if he DOES bite you he’s going to bite 10x as hard because you riled him up. And if you have a dog who NEEDS some playfighting and has energy to burn off (Cluster-B girl) but you keep it in a small room with no windows or room to run around or toys to fuck with etc (a guy who’s trying not to upset her), that dog is going to start biting at people because it doesn’t know what to do with all the energy it has…that’s why the Dog Whisperer guy gets people putting those dogs on a treadmill and shit so they can burn off that energy. This is a similar concept.

    Now that all said, understand that the main chick I keep around for learning purposes is in another part of the country from me and I’m not legally tied to her and she only knows minimal information about my life (in terms of being able to destroy my career or whatever with false accusations) so while I also have experience with these chicks in-person (including this one), the majority of what I’m doing with her is all via txt/phone so I’m relatively safe. I’ve got a rabid pitbull chained to a tree in my yard and I keep my distance out of the reach of it’s jaws when I go feed it lol

    But what exactly is my situation doing based on the stuff I just wrote about why guys get fucked over by these chicks? I have distance which means things can’t physically escalate. I have a bit of anonymity with her so I can let things escalate without a lot of worry about consequences. I’m using txt/phone primarily with her so I can walk away from the conversation at any point with no worries. I’m not legally tied to her in any way and mentally I’m not invested in her because I go do pickup with other girls etc so while we’ve known eachother for a few years I have no oneitis for her or anything. And I KNOW that she’s damaged and unfit to be longterm settle-down LTR material, let alone a legal wife, let ALONE a baby mama to my kids who would be just as batshit crazy as she is and would all team up with her against me as I get older and my frame gets weaker. Like I KNOW that’s a recipe for disaster.

    I also know that if we have these fights in person, there’s an almost 100% chance that they’ll escalate to her blocking the door and/or hitting me or throwing things at me, cops being called, maybe even a LEGIT fake staged suicide attempt etc and I would be in for a nightmare. So I don’t put myself in that situation…if we hang out it’s in public, or I secretly record us if it’s in private, I use game to snuff a lot of her attempts to pick fights out before they escalate, I feed her SAFE drama on my terms so she can get her fix but it’s drama about silly shit to me like I’ll let another girl’s name show up on my phone etc.

    I do this stuff partly to understand it and partly because I like girls who are a little chaotic. My day to day is pretty boring so a girl who’s a little emotional like that is fun for me, and I find they tend to be pretty feminine which I like (really this is just kind of a severe extreme end of being incredibly feminine and rolling with her emotions in the moment and needing extreme emotions, VS like a stoic masculine energy). So I figure if/when I settle down it’ll end up being with a girl who’s more drama than my buddies would want, but much less drama than this chick is lol

    But this chick, like SJF’s golf analogy, is training for handling other girls who give me drama. Because this chick is the far end of the spectrum, so when some silly 21yo at the bar gives me a little drama/shit-test that shit just bounces off like bullets off Superman’s chest because I’ve “trained” with this crazy chick (and others before her, but she’s my main one).

    That’s why I can explain all this shit lol

    Again I’m not suggesting that Camaro should stay in his relationship and try to fix it…he’s already WELL past the stage where she knows she has him by the balls and can let the full crazy out. The lion’s gnawing his leg off already, he needs to GTFO. But I wanted to document this stuff for discussion purposes and just to have the information out there because I hate brushing off sections of human behavior as just “crazy” or “random”. I think everything we do can be explained and even predicted with a pretty high degree of accuracy if we can understand all the factors involved and look for patterns.

    The stuff I just described falls completely in line with what we already know and accept and understand about shit-tests and girls’ need for emotional rollercoasters and how society ties men’s hands in dealing with them and even how children push boundaries until someone enforces them etc. So I’m not bringing anything super controversial to the table, all I’m describing is an extreme version of concepts we already understand…but to guys who’ve been through these Cluster-B situations up close and personal I understand if there’s some “it’s not that simple man, trust me” pushback (just like avoiding parental alienation can’t be that simple trust me etc, it’s our natural urge to feel like our particular situation is special and way more complicated than other people could possibly know)

    @scray
    “Naturals spout TBP shit all the time and still slay effortlessly. Why? They have such a strong inner core and frame that it doesn’t matter.”

    My only caveat to that would be that when those Naturals come out of their poon-slaying period and want to settle down, they are extremely unequipped for the realities of an LTR and a LOT of them revert to Blue Pill LTR-chode mode because they believe they should treat their girlfriend different than they treat “those bar sluts” because they picked her thinking she’s a unicorn and have the Blue Pill madonna/whore complex. So in the end a LOT of them get bitten hard or get sucked into a BPD situation trying to fix the situation in a “happy wife, happy life” way because of their Blue Pill beliefs.

    The Naturals who keep their Red Pill attitudes despite having a Blue Pill belief system about LTRs/marriage/kids/etc are VERY rare, ESPECIALLY if they get hooked by a BPD.

    @Forge
    “but no-one has any clear evidence and specific theories about how this could happen abound”

    This is the biggest red flag to me. That there aren’t teams of people working on solving this 24/7…no one seems to really give a shit. Because I think they already KNOW the answer. But it’s too fucked up to publicize, just like false rape accusations and divorce-rape etc TOTES NEVER HAPPEN GUISE when everyone knows a few guys who’ve had them happen to them. Blue Pill guys have a hard time accepting that girls can act like the ones in that Julien vid I posted where he’s making fun of other girls for being fat, or like the Uber girl etc…imagine telling them “btw you’re working your whole life to save up for that wedding to your unicorn, but she might just snuff your kids out while you’re asleep, and actually for a lot of you she actually DID all those tears she shed were crocodile tears just like when the Uber girl apologizes, women are capable of this fucked up behavior (and the Red Pill can explain a lot of it)”

    “Not nearly enough to draw strong conclusions, but I think that suspicion is unfortunately not at all ridiculous.”

    I would love for it NOT to be true. And I haven’t really looked into any of the research…I’m just going by what I know about human behavior and chick psychology. It’s not really THAT big a leap when you’ve seen women do super fucked up shit and hamster rationalize accountability etc away and how effortless it is for them. But I would be burned at the stake for suggesting any of this at like a dinner party with Blue Pill people lol

  42. @Dragonfly, not for nothing, but your husband’s is exactly the same trite dismissal I’ve come to expect from men with zero understanding of how BPDs work.

    It’s easy for guys with very limited experience with women, to say nothing of BPD women, to value signal by parroting the same tired “stop thinkin’ with yur dick” trope that’s been around forever. There’s zero insight as to why a guy is literally trapped in that negative emotional feedback loop.

    They want to come off as being above their sex drives by laying claim to being too smart to “let the little head do the thinking for the big head” but they only feed into the same ‘not like other guys‘ schema they believe will actually make them uniquely attractive to women.

    Until your hubby’s N-count gets into the high 20’s he’s got no claim to thinking with anything but his dick because it’s all his own value signaling.

    Now, go read this before you make a fool of yourself again:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/

    A BPD’s control is not just about weak men wanting sex.

  43. @SJF – haha. Thank you – I’m downloading it now. I didn’t mind his writing style in his previous books so it should be fine. Incidentally I have seen him speak live and he comes across exactly as self-important and pompous as you’d expect with that writing style, but the content is great.

  44. Reading Rollo’s post and most of the comments here, has made me think in how I unplugged. I really never had a traumatic moment in my life like most commenters here that had horrible marriages, dead bedrooms, divorce raped, BPD girlfriends, etc. I never had a girlfriend with little to no interaction with women, I was mostly a social recluse who barely went out and spent most of his time jacking off everyday to porn. I just saw how fucked up the brony community was when I was into that shit, after that I gravitated to MRA stuff, then I went to MGTOW, TRP subreddit until I ended up here. My unplugging is as boring as is gets.

    I have read a lot theory here and other manosphere sites, but this is just theory. due to my lack of interactions with women, I don’t how I will behave once I start having more relationships with them.

    Small FR: I went out a couple of days last week. The Friday, I went to a new disco, so I was very nervous going to a new place. I arrived way too early so the disco was virtually empty. just some couples and the workers of the place. I only talked to bartenders, I sat down on a couch, I saw some mixed sets but couldn’t open them, I didn’t how approach them and what to say to them also the more I looked around I realized I was the only guy alone in the place so I got more anxious and nervous. After a while the place was getting a little more crowded with people dancing on the dance floor, near a group of people dancing there was a fat girl sitting down alone on a couch, I looked at her and thought how to approach her and what to say, and again nothing. I ended up dancing awkwardly on the dance floor alone like a fool. That night was a failure.

    The Saturday my brother-in-law invited me to his best buddies’ bachelor party. I talked to the guys that went to the party, all of them friendly, I talked to a pole dancing girl that was with our group. The only downside I think, is that I drank too much booze. But in the end, I had a blast there.

    So first night: crap, second night: ok, didn’t do much, but it really lifted my hopes.

    @YaReally
    Oh man that Loverboy video is very inspirational. Also, thanks for the reply in the “The red pill balance” thread. I going to check Julien’s SHIFT and PIMP, also regarding the Mystery Method seminars, where I can find those videos? Thanks.
    .

  45. “So in the end a LOT of them get bitten hard or get sucked into a BPD situation trying to fix the situation in a “happy wife, happy life” way because of their Blue Pill beliefs.”

    ya they lose their frame. happens all the time. Brad PItt has the strength to just say ‘fuck off’ to whoever steps outside his reality. naturals can do this…like, if their girlfriend is a BPD slore they can summon up some TBP ‘i guess the devil has her now’ shit as an excuse to X her out of their life….but ya, many of them don’t…for whatever reason, after a marriage or LTR.

    and it’s like you said — they’re ill-equipped for an LTR and the long-term headspace you need to be in.

    lose the frame lose the game.

    but TRP dudes lose frame all the fucking time too. i ought to know, having made this mistake many times.

    but i just trace it back to a simple question:

    can you SAY NO WHEN THEY PUSH THE BOUNDARIES? can you just walk away?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MImNGJNcvIc

    if you can’t, you’re fucked.

    there’s some video where Julien or someone is like just do whatever, but do it 100% no compromise.

  46. @Scray:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/29/the-origin-of-alpha/

    The Learned Alpha

    Roosh has an excellent breakdown of The Myth of the Natural that perfectly encapsulates the learning theory of Alpha. The premise behind this is that Alpha behavior, and consequently facility with women, comes as a set of modeled behaviors based upon trial and error.

    If I were forced to agree on what a natural is, it would be a man who’s a prodigy of sex—someone who gets laid way above other men with no formal instruction in game. This means he was not exposed to any 12 DVD “Cocky Humor” sets or seminars in a hotel room with three dozen other guys. You look at him and think, “Wow, he gets laid automatically. He was born to get laid!”

    But he wasn’t. Just because he didn’t read a book doesn’t mean he didn’t learn through trial and error like you did, practicing his game on a large number of women. It doesn’t mean that he wasn’t conscious and deliberate with his behavior, incrementally improving his moves and tactics over a long period of time. He has experimented like you have experimented, and he has also connected his attempts with results to figure out what works and what doesn’t.

    He may not be obsessive about it enough to log his data into a spreadsheet, but he’s mindful and aware of what he’s doing. He understands the mechanism behind charm and can often turn it on or off depending on what he wants. He has learned the type of humor and story-telling that gets a positive response in women. The last thing you can say about him was that he was born into the world with the “automatic” ability to fuck a lot of girls.

    Essentially what Roosh explores here is a very basic behavioral psychology premise – macro-psychological dynamics to micro-psychological schema are developed, deliberately or unconsciously, through a process of deductive trial and error management. Whether you’re aware of it or not, everyone has Game to varying degrees. Every man you know has some concept of behaviors and mental attitudes he believes will best help him arrive at sexual intimacy with a woman. Even the worst Blue Pill Beta believes he has some idea of how best to get with a girl.

    All of this proto-Game has been in a constant state of trial and error management since you were five years old and had your first interaction with the opposite sex on the kindergarten playground, right up to the point when you discovered the Red Pill. And you will continue to modify your old behavior and mental sets based upon the new information available to you after you adopt formalized Game. In fact, in its rawest sense, the PUA community, the manosphere and all its permutations are really a meta-effort in behavioral modification by way of experimentation and information feedback.

    For some this learning process comes easier than it does for others. Again Roosh:

    The reason he blows you away isn’t because of his genetics, but because of how early he started. A unique set of circumstances threw him into the sex game years before you, during a time he was lucky enough to be surrounded by giggly schoolgirls. By the time you did your first approach, he had already practiced his game on hundreds of women.

    While I do agree with this from a behavioral standpoint, this is where I have to depart from accepting Roosh’s theory entirely. There are far too many biological and environmental determinants involved in developing an Alpha male to ascribe an Alpha status based solely on learned behavior. The simple, observable, fact is that a genetically better looking, more physically arousing male is going to statistically have more opportunities to experiment and develop his Alpha Game prowess than a less physically impressive male. In theory, a man with a more advantageous physical presence will “start earlier” in his process of deductively evaluating behaviors since his efforts will be more frequently encouraged by the women who are naturally attracted to his physique.

    Unfortunately all of that assumes developing a behavioral set in a vacuum. There’s literally a world of environmental conditions and variables that would predispose a man towards behavioral development of Alpha status or (more often) limit him from it. Roosh touches on this:

    At this point you may be thinking, “Well, there have to be guys who were born with it. Look at Mozart!”

    Nobody questions that Mozart’s achievements were extraordinary compared with those of his contemporaries. What’s often forgotten, however, is that his development was equally exceptional for his time. His musical tutelage started before he was four years old, and his father, also a skilled composer, was a famous music teacher and had written one of the first books on violin instruction. Like other world-class performers, Mozart was not born an expert—he became one.

    I don’t think this example excludes for a natural, innate talent, but it does help to illustrate the environment’s role in molding a person by limiting or encouraging his behavioral development and ultimately his personality. In the Mozart example we see the success story (the story of a master artist) of a natural talent encouraged and developed to potential by favorable external conditions. Mozart was the perfect storm of natural talent and an ideal environment for nurturing it, thus giving him the advantage of an “early start” in his behavioral trial and error efforts.

  47. YaReally et al. The SIDS business is very interesting. Just for the psychology of it. I don’t think anyone will dispute that SOME percentage of it mothers killing their babies in a moment of craziness. And no one will dispute that there are probably some babies who do just naturally die of unknown causes.

    But we don’t know the breakdown and the “5% are killed by mothers” thing seems like it isn’t a solid figure (like how do you identify them anyway? From what I can tell there’s no medical way to tell the difference).

    But what really interests me is that if there’s a bunch of wildly different reasons given for a specific phenomenon, in psychology that is a strong tell for cognitive dissonance (Scott Adams talks about this a lot on his blog). Basically the brain doesn’t want to accept the truth that it knows (in this case that a LOT of women *may* be killing their babies) because it challenges their identity and ego-investment, so they come up with all kinds of different and wildly contradictory explanations for it.

  48. Digireaper – good work for going out and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Nights like that happen to all of us, especially at the start (and even later on – just that it becomes less frequent). The main thing is that you keep going out and pushing your comfort zone.

    Having a wingman (if you can get one) will really help your state. As will having a specific ritual to put you into a good social mood before going out (some music you like or whatever). And especially if you’re solo try to get out of your shell and start talking to ANYONE as soon as possible so that you don’t get stuck in your head (YaReally has a lot on this in his archive and Julien talks about it in PIMP too).

    PIMP/SHIFT – you can buy them obviously, or I believe they are available on torrent. Mystery Method: I think it is quite easy to download the “classic” MM on lots of sites or torrents – don’t think the current company Love Systems sell it. And I think a lot of it is actually on Youtube too..

  49. @Culum

    Yeah, I scanned a bunch of research and it all does sound suspiciously like a bunch of minds desperately trying to not come to an unthinkable conclusion. I doubt SIDS deaths are all murders. But the 5% figure, like I said above, was very poorly thought through and backed up, and yet that’s the number they cite unquestioningly.

    The one account that tried to account for methodology in finding that number basically assumed that you could measure it by looking at families wherein multiple children died from SIDS. They thought that meant that the parents were more likely to be killing the children since it’d be a huge coincidence otherwise (but brought no attention to the literally half dozen confounds I thought of in like a minute). Oh, and had an n=57.

    Dunno if you know much about study design, but that’s just a nightmare. The researcher may have well just said he was going off a gut feeling here.

  50. “I don’t think anyone will dispute that SOME percentage of it mothers killing their babies in a moment of craziness.”

    I would dispute that it’s craziness, never mind a “moment” of it. I think most of them are quite sane and know exactly what they are doing. Any apparently crazy behaviour isn’t related to the act itself, but to the legal ramifications of it.

  51. “That said, for the sake of the knowledge-base of how human psychology and shit works:”

    @YaReally

    You should get some sort of lifetime achievement award. lol.

    How would you break up with her? Make it her fault? or feed her ego?

  52. @Forge the Sky – not professionally, but I have an amateur’s interest to the extent that I read about stuff like how big pharma companies rig drug trials and drug studies and how they manipulate doctors to prescribe and stuff like that. So I know a bit about it and I agree.

  53. @ Rollo Tomassi “It does help to illustrate the environment’s role in molding a person by limiting or encouraging his behavioral development and ultimately his personality.”

    It sort of reminds me of that scene from the film “Antz” where they examine every ant larvae after it’s born and decide if it’s a worker or soldier based on their physical size.

    I think a filtering process like this occurs in society starting early on and later develops into an unspoken, subconscious code of conduct. The FI narrative is thrust onto young boys, or their mothers attempt to impose their will on their sons, and the boys are designated alpha or beta depending on how they respond to this shit test writ large, and raised in such a way that what is considered acceptable and unacceptable for them depends on their alpha/beta designation.

    If this is the case, it explains observations I’ve made of parents who insist one son be humble even with great accomplishments, while giggling like a school girl when their other son openly and unapologetically boasts about some trivial achievement. Or, there will be pressures on one son to “man up” and marry right away, while the other can spin plates all he wants into his mid-thirties without drawing a single word of criticism.

  54. @Dutchman

    “Re: the Uber chick… I just wonder, with everything that is known about game, what was the BEST thing the dude could have done to get her to stop acting that way so he didn’t go to jail or some shit when the cops showed up and she made up some crazy story?”

    Jeremy makes a good point that every option is bad game long term here. But if you just want the bang, hey, you just need to throw her emotions in the right direction. Having a Bad Day pointed out how there was actually quite a bit of sexual activation already taking place.

    See, she’s not consciously like ‘oh I want to get banged, I’m gonna act like X.’ But that’s the instinctive origin of a lot of her behavior, amped up by alcohol and validation and who knows what the fuck else.

    See how she reacts when she’s yelling at the driver to get in the car, and how she reacts when he leans in like he’s gonna? Just get in the car. Keep her yelling, yell back at her, match her energy. Laser as you do when you can. Push/pull a bit by saying things like how feisty she is. Drive her to a secluded but not creepy spot. Pull her out of the car, bang her very assertively.

    The thing is, that might be fucking dynamite, but try dealing with the buyer’s remorse on that one. What she instinctively wants here is so at odds with social acceptability that there’s probably no way to give it to her without a backlash rape charge, just so she can feel ‘ok’ about it. Oh, I didn’t want that, I was raped.

  55. @digireaper

    “The Friday, I went to a new disco, so I was very nervous going to a new place. ”

    props on going OUT!…that’s the first step…congratulations!…that shits hard…and going out alone takes real balls…not kidding on that…it gets easier the more you do it…

    “That night was a failure. ”

    NOPE..HUGE success…you might not have even talked to a girl, but just taking action = HUGE success…GREAT JOB!!!

    “I ended up dancing awkwardly on the dance floor alone like a fool. ”

    i just want to point out one VERY important thing… you…are…still…ALIVE…lol…

    “The Saturday my brother-in-law invited me to his best buddies’ bachelor party. I talked to the guys that went to the party, all of them friendly, I talked to a pole dancing girl that was with our group. The only downside I think, is that I drank too much booze. But in the end, I had a blast there.”

    see how fast this shit can turn around for you…lol…props on that…just one point that you’ve probably figured out…don’t drink too much…lol…did you get her number?…lol…

    fify:

    “So first night: SUCCESS!!!, second night: EVEN BETTER, and it really lifted my hopes.”

    good luck!

  56. If you are trying to get your N count up and brag about it, it is legit to add +3 for every seriously BPD chick that was clinically diagnosed right?

  57. @rollo

    ya a lot of that is outside my paradigm but cool stuff

    @SJF

    you’d be surprised about how non-BPD chicks become when you have the power to ditch them the second they cross the line.

  58. I personally would not be surprised. Very little surprises me. I had an education that included clinical psychology 30 years ago. I’m a good observer and analyzer and you’d be surprised at how those analytical abilities don’t fade over time. And I also am keenly aware that Frame is not power.

    I was shocked this last year when I realized that I have employed Law #10 with sublime expertise. I looked around at those that are close to me and affect me. I pretty have near zero unhappy and unlucky people surrounding me. I simply don’t let it happen. (And no doubt if some of you met me in real life I might simply bore you to tears. But I enthuse myself infinitely well.)

  59. @Rollo, LOL I don’t think you understand his mindset. He actually surprises me with the things he says in how he would react to some of the things men go through in the manosphere.

    One time I related a story that BV had posted on my own blog about being with a woman on a first date that behaved awkwardly enough to warrant a reaction. His reaction was SO far off what I even expected (and nothing at all what BV did) – and no it wasn’t a fake bravado, it’s just how he would honestly react. You don’t have to have so many “lays” to understand your value and behave accordingly. Sure I’m certain that helps, but there are always outliers.

  60. @Scray: I don’t have to believe it, I know it. Which is how I know that that is part of what makes them so dangerous and why the men who deal with them for any length of time get their heads fucked up so badly.

    Note that Camaro says his has been super duper for about 2 months now.

    That scares me. That seems to be about the term of the usual “nice” cycle. If she were living with me, I’d be waiting for her to “go off” any day now.

  61. And you know he is around BPD girls often enough. He sees them calling on their boyfriends/husbands when they’re the one that were beating him and had him locked in the bathroom. He’s arrested them instead of the men at times. So yea… he’s seen them at their worst.

  62. @Drangonfly

    “You don’t have to have so many “lays” to understand your value and behave accordingly.”

    You have to be a man not getting laid or getting cut off from sex to understand how little your value really is. Frame is not power.

    This scenario doesn’t apply to your husband or myself. But ask your husband how he would feel if he was having great sex and it was going to end for the foreseeable future. Would he think “No bid deal”? Propose that to him without telegraphing anything. Ask him and tell us his answer.

    Or think how your brother would feel in that situation. Would he feel as valuable as if he had easy access to sex?

  63. “He’s arrested them instead of the men at times.”

    Perhaps he has a kindred empathy for the men? And is thinking rationally within the dictates of law. Why the hell wouldn’t he arrest the woman? Your premise is showing.

  64. SJF – My brother and my husband are at completely different ends of a spectrum in my opinion. My brother looks up to my husband like the red pill father he never had – he’s mentored him because my father failed at that. My brother is making great progress, and I’m so happy for him, but he’s nowhere near where my husband is (and I wouldn’t expect him to be at this point in his life). But he IS getting there, but if he came into contact with a BPD, I’m sure he’d have no idea what he was dealing with and get sucked into it. My husband would probably be the one to point it out and pull him out of it, even intervene if need be (like he’s done countless times before when he counsels grown men way past his own age).

    His response: “Is it really worth it? Eventually that great sex won’t be so great when it’s ruining the rest of your life.”

  65. LOL SJF, he does exactly what needs to be done, and it gives him great satisfaction to arrest the woman when other times officers unjustly arrest the man in those cases. bpd women play like they’re the victims when in reality they’re usually doing physical violence against their partners.

    But it’s the woman who calls … *lying* and when he gets there and finds the scene to be the opposite of what she says, and finds NO marks on her, or hears the man tell him that she created the marks on herself (which these women actually do) and checks to see, he arrests her for assault.

      1. “particularly when you yourself have no options and believe you’ll never do any better than her.” (last line in your article, this is the crux of it)

        I’ve read it before, I’ve seen women like this, and I’ve seen men with those women. I have a friend who committed suicide in (what I thought) part of his reaction to his wife’s mental disorder.

  66. …it’s just how he would honestly react.

    Indeed.

    “Stop thinking with your fuckin dick and get the fuck out.
    Think with the head on your shoulders, not the one between your legs.”

    He has no first hand experience, and therefore no clue what he’s repeating. The problem is that guys in this situation are thinking with their big heads, that’s the point – everything is a reward to risk equation.

    Again, your husband is only value signaling that he’s above being influenced by his sexual nature. Which is of course is a form of sexual qualifying.

  67. You change the subject.

    Of course the discussion upstream was about BPD.

    My question is in regard to the value a man holds for himself. His self-esteem. If a man is not getting sexual release is it easy for him to hold his self esteem high? Independent of all the ruinous forces in his life for him?

    Sure, a man that cannot keep it in his pants for a stretch is not truly disciplined. I’m not talking about discipline. I’m talking about self esteem and self value as man. Is it there as much value and esteem, pound for pound when a man is not getting laid?

  68. One more and I’m done with you:

    His response: “Is it really worth it? Eventually that great sex won’t be so great when it’s ruining the rest of your life.”

    Read that post. Hot crazy porn star sex is only the intermittent behavioral reinforcer. If it were only about sex then every woman would be a BPD. It’s not just about the sex, it is about the mental schema of both the BPD and the man she convinces to play her role and re-identify himself in it.

    This is exactly why your husband’s programmed aphorisms are fuck-all useless to a guy in Softek’s circumstances. He has no frame of reference.

  69. @Rollo: “This is exactly why your husband’s programmed aphorisms are fuck-all useless to a guy in Softek’s circumstances. He has no frame of reference.”

    Somehow, but not surprisingly, this is not hitting home for dragonfly….

  70. “The way of the Superior Man by David Deida”.

    Never heard of that one. What’s it about? And how does it offer insights into this thread?

  71. @Dragonfly

    You really don’t get it. You’ve never dated one of these chicks. I’ve dated two. One recently, one my first year of college that was my first lay. I didn’t intend to even have sex with her. I wasn’t thinking with my dick at all. I tried to walk away that night, but she made it clear she would kill herself if I did. Being 18 at the time I believed it would be my fault if she did and capitulated. The relationship was a fucking nightmare.

    The recent one managed to find a couple small holes in my armor and tried to exploit them, but fortunately I managed to get a handle on it due only to experience and introspection I wasn’t capable of in my younger years. It still isn’t easy though;they have no shame in digging for then exploiting the hell out of your emotional and psychological weaknesses. They are the female analogue to a Ted Bundy.

    Imagine if every single time you saw a chance to control someone, even if it meant psychologically destroying them, you were cool with it so long as you got what you wanted. That’s what these women are. Sex is just one tool in the massive arsenal they utilize. Gross over simplifications like “Stop thinking with your dick.” demonstrate a complete and total misunderstanding of the nature of the beast.

    I know it’s hard to really grasp if you’ve not been through it, but trust me when I say it’s emotional abuse on a scale most healthy humans can’t ever imagine inflicting on another human being.

  72. @Avid – A little close to the bone for you, eh? And in “masculine” Spartan culture, boys in training were encouraged to have homosexual relationships with their mentor/trainers, lol. Still role models for you? It was thought to create loyalty and enhance the bond between them.

    Red Pill is understanding that women live in a conflict wrt to their sexual urges while men don’t. You see, women are not designed to torture you, they are just following their programming. They are also programmed to not give a shit about your suffering, no evolutionary advantage in that. Men cling to their blue pill ideal so they don’t have to deal with reality and still believe they “should” be worthy of desire sex in a “fair” world. It’s also worth noting that when female sexual agency was more restrained pre-pill/abortion/divorce on demand, they had to fuck guys they didn’t have the hots for so lower value men had a better chance at getting laid. Blue Pill men are essentially mad that their low value is scoffed at now and women don’t have to pretend to like them while they are chasing AF. Sadly, Blue Pill men are still suckers for post-wall types looking to consolidate on a provider as the mere whiff of a little pussy lets them believe they were right the whole time, those alpha dogs who were getting laid left, right and center really were assholes. Until they get married of course…

    But hey, keep on preening your fantasyworld about as though you are heroically clearer and more enlightened than the rest of us. Just know that to me, it looks like a LARPathon…

  73. @ Rollo

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/21/case-study-the-crazy/

    That post seemed to bridge the gap a bit between BPD and a ‘normal’ relationship. It does seem like BPD is just an extreme version of how women normally are, although the core of it is different. That’s why BPD is a personality disorder.

    But I’ve never been in a relationship, so have no frame of reference for what’s normal and what’s not.

    @ YaReally

    I did tell her directly to shut the fuck up once when she was going off on me and being completely abusive. I just looked her dead in the eye and told her to shut the fuck up and listen to what I’m saying. And she did.

    Still, the episodes continue. We had a long talk tonight where I basically told her she was being abusive to me, I’m living in fear, I’m emotionally drained, and I can’t do this anymore. She acknowledged that she was being abusive to me and apologized. Said I should never have to feel like I’m walking on eggshells. I told her about the issues I’ve been having and she says she had no idea she was doing this to me, etc. and apologized and said she felt horrible, like she was the bad guy.

    She keeps saying she wants to change. That she doesn’t want to be like this. But the alternating between the passive-aggressiveness, the outright aggressiveness, and the alleged claims of love, support, wanting the best for me, being in love with me, etc., is kind of a mindfuck.

    I’m admittedly feeling a little better tonight after talking with her. That’s the headfuck part. Not realizing the reality of the situation or the inherent toxicity of it. I feel like things are better now but I know that nothing has fundamentally changed tonight. This has happened before and the cycle just keeps repeating.

    From Rollo’s BPD post:

    ….

    “For a guy so accustomed to her neurotic behavior, his first impression is that she’s making some real change for him in order to “improve the relationship.” It’s not, but so radical a shift in her behavior will convince you otherwise, and cause you to doubt her deception, particularly when you yourself have no options and believe you’ll never do any better than her.”

    ….

    This is the first girl in my entire life I ever spent the holidays with, had sex with (had a few one night stands before this, but all were just blowjobs), had any kind of contact with at ALL on a regular basis. Best looking girl I’ve been with.

    All the Blue Pill fantasies of “ideal love” came true, for a while. We did everything I ever dreamed of doing with a girl when I was an incel — from sleeping together in bed, to her buying lingerie and dressing up for me and then having crazy hot sex, including her talking dirty and acting slutty for me (huge turn on), to going out and having fun and doing things together, to spending the holidays together, etc.

    The whole thing. It all seems manageable until I realize that thinking about going on PornHub or looking at a cute girl at a supermarket gives me intense bouts of anxiety these days because of how severely she’s reacted to me doing that over the months.

    The worst mindfuck about the whole thing is really, truly being led to believe that this person is in love with you, that they care about you and your well-being.

    Then thinking “Maybe she’s right. Maybe those girls are all sluts, maybe porn really is bad and I should stop going on it, maybe I am being a pig for checking random girls out….”

    It’s a MAJOR headfuck. The mix of positive and negative feedback is insane. In one sense, she’s been there at my every beck and call.

    But in the other sense, I’m panicking about seeing porn popups/jokes/girls being ‘sexy’ in FB videos, and feel different in general than I used to, and I feel like my sense of identity has shifted.

    I already had plugged-in issues with my sexuality. Feeling shame for wanting to be with multiple women. Feeling guilt for fantasizing about it. Feeling bad about my sexuality — about being a man — about wanting to spread my seed or sow my wild oats as I’ve heard people from my parents’ generation say.

    To top the headfuck off, this relationship happened before I was completely unplugged. I’m still plugged in. So I ALREADY have pre-existing shame and denial regarding my sexuality (i.e., wanting to have a lot of fun with a lot of different women)….

    …and that shame and guilt have been magnified and reinforced. I feel like I’ve transformed a lot since finding RM, but this relationship has been holding up a magnifying glass to my remaining BP thought processes and hopelessness.

    IOW, it doesn’t help that I didn’t have a very solid identity before getting ensnared in this. I was just trying to immerse myself in some RP concepts, embrace my sexual imperative as a man, and start recovering and improving my general trainwreck of a life.

    Fatal attraction.

    But yes, as Rollo said, far more complicated than just ‘thinking with the little head instead of the big head.’

    This is all about the big head. If I was just thinking with the ‘little head’ I’d be balls deep in a young hottie right now and not giving a fuck about all the arguments we’ve had or worrying about the emotional connections we’ve forged, or that I’ve been led to believe that we’ve forged, and then feeling GUILTY for even writing this comment here on RM because I feel like I’m bad-mouthing her, feeling like my personal agency has been slowly slipping away, so slowly and gradually that it’s hard to notice how much has really gone —

    — yeah.

  74. While we’re on the subject of BPD chicks, I’d just like to mention there is a big difference between them and regular girls that just have their bitch shield up.

    I had what was almost a perfect comparison study between two girls I worked with. Both were roughly the same age, average looking, tall and skinny, and thought they were more attractive than they actually were.

    The first one we’ll call Krissy. She was very bitchy and bossy when I first met her, but once I teased her a bit she got a lot nicer. From then on, she’d still be a bit bitchy whenever I came into work, but you could always tell she wasn’t really being serious about it. I just had to get through her bitch shield first, and then just hit the softball toss she’d lob my way each day and I was good.

    The more recent, BDP girl was completely different. She’d be bitchy, then I would tease her a bit, and then she would calm down. Each day she would go right back to being just as bitchy as before, but there was never any of that underlying warmth I got from Krissy.

    Basically, Krissy was a tootsie pop. Once you got past the hard exterior, she was all soft and sweet on the inside. But the BDP was like a jawbreaker. She was just hard through and through.

    So the other day I worked with the BDP chick and we were busy. Then the girl that just got hired showed up. And the BDP immediately went off on me. Telling me what a horrible job I was doing, all but yelling at me in front of customers. It was the most disrespected I have ever been in my life. I know that exact Clint Eastwood movie yareally was talking about. I always thought his character was an enourmous piece of shit. Now I understand a lot better lol.

    Given I was surprised (though I knew what was happening as it was happening) and had almost no sleep the night before, I didn’t handle it the best but did okay. I did the second worst thing that yareally mentioned, where you defend yourself rather then deflecting it back on her. She had the gall to claim everyone was complaining about me — which was bullshit because everyone else, including the manager, likes me and hates her. I called her out on her bullshit. Still, I should have turned things on her, but at least I didn’t try to appease her. So I am still pretty happy with how I handled that ambush.

    So then the crazy part is she goes and complains to a manager (30yr old female) in a completely different part of the store (our manager was out for the day). Who, rather than smacking the BDP girl down for being unprofessional and creating a scene, get on her side and is slightly irritated with me. The end result of having a conversation — in the middle of the work day — is that I should have called for more help when things got busy. Nevermind we could have had this discussion after hours, out of sight and hearing of customers. Nevermind that I was the one rushing back and forth getting taking care of everything while the BDP was standing around and could have called for help at anytime, no, it was MY fault.

    Fortunately, I am on really good terms with my manager (45yr old female) who was livid with the BDP girl for how unprofessional she was being. So I am good.

    Now, all of this shit happened for this exact reason:

    “I’m booooreed. Hank used to tease me a bit and make work more interesting, but today he’s all tired. I’m upset its so busy today. So I am going to create a bunch of drama to show off to the new girl what a strong independent woman ™ I am, and create a bunch of drama so I won’t be bored.”

    And all that happens because nobody stops her. Even my manager, who did a decent job, still ended up ultimately rewarding her for little temper tantrum by making sure the two of us don’t work together again. So all that really teaches the BDP chick is that if she doesn’t like someone, or is just bored, she can create a scene and she won’t get fired.

    And its not even that she doesn’t like me. She was perfectly pleasant after her tantrum. She just needs to get on that emotional roller coaster. But because she’s never really been punished for acting up, she has no comprehension how her actions affect others.

    Its like a little kid who swings his arms around, until he acidentally hits Sally in the face. Sally cries, and the boy is punished. So the boy learns to be careful when he swings his arms because hitting someone in the face hurts JUST LIKE when he gets hit in the face. So he can empathize with others.

    But this chick is REWARDED for acting up. No, men DESERVE that. Don’t feel bad at all. You go girl.

    So you’ve got all these girls out there who have absolutely zero ability to see that, yes, when you do something bad it affects people other than you. What a trainwreck.

    And I just now got a text from her asking if I could plz plz plz cover her shift tomorrow

    lolololol

    tl:dr
    My recent observation has been that spotting BDP girls is a lot like spotting hookers. You should only get ioi’s from girls when you past shit tests or DHV. If you get unearned ioi’s that’s a red flag. Likewise, girls with bitch shields up will warm up to you as you pass their tests and prove you are a high value guy, and if you run into her later she’ll still test you, but it will be an easier test. BDP girls may at first warm up to you, but they will randomly swing through emotions regardless of what you do.

    So how does that compare to what you guys have seen?

  75. I’ve decided to go ahead with the divorce. What I’m going to do is on Monday I’m going to go down and get the paperwork and then sign up for a free class at the family law facilitator to help me fill out the forms. It should go pretty easily considering the length of time we’ve been married and the fact that we have no kids and no real property between us. And as far as my red pill awakening I’ve decided that instead of coming off of it slowly in order to minimize the shock of transitioning from blue pill – red pill I’m going to go and blow the whole thing out of the water. It’s going to kill me filing for that divorce and it’s going to hurt to move out because there’s a huge part of me that’s pulling me back in, that wants me to be plugged right back into the matrix. In my mind my precondition fears tell me that the sex will end, that there will be no other women for me, that I’m not a man by giving up on my marriage. But the cold truth is is that I could never go back after swallowing the red pill. Everything in my life is different, every relationship i encounter wether its my friends with their girlfriends, my mom and her spouse, my sisters and their spouses i see hypergamy everywhere. What I thought I had with my wife was a delusion, was a mirage fabricated by something I knew not of, something that from birth was instilled in me, an ideal that if followed basically makes me a miserable depressed stressed-out human being. FDR famously quoted in his speech “there is nothing to fear but fear itself.” I would rather face the fear of the unknown world in which I am A single man, and have my life in my hands with only myself to be happy with. With no internal external push- pull tearing me apart, making me choose between myself and what society has conditioned me to believe I should be. I feel panicky. Like the closer I get to finally letting this go the greater the fear. What a hold it has on me! It’s sooo real. I’m also afraid of my wife. She makes little comments about how she’s never going to let me go, she casually talks about her obsession with knives and how that is one aspect she enjoys about the medical field. She’s only 5’4 and 105 lbs yet has the uncanny ability to move silently throughout the house. I was in the downstairs bathroom one night about 11pm taking a crap and when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she wasn’t making a sound it was like she was frozen. Scared the hell out of me. After asking her what she was doing she replied, “were you talking to a girl in there? Because if you were I was going to go upstairs and…” she stopped herself there. I’m going to have to be careful.

  76. Womankind is programmed by nature with hypergamy. Hypergamy operates mostly automatically via hindbrain and its intents are covertly disguised so mankind will be non the wiser until womankind is able to capitalize upon mankinds provisions and carnal seed. Womankind is assisted by natural programming of mankind’s romantic idealistic idiocy.

    Enter Rollo Tomassi. The messiah of sexual gender dynamics is born unto us! Behold the revelation of ubiquitous enlightenment for all men. All can now rejoice where only few could before! The dots have been connected! Eureka! Blue pill idealism can now be realized within an alpha frame. The correct context has been discovered. The sexual holy grail is recovered. Man is at last allowed to be an idiot!

  77. On being a natural. I have to concur with Rollo’s view on how we all develop our own game, for better or worse. I never thought of myself as a natural until someone on this board suggested I was one. Fyi, I never thought of myself as alpha until I brought up the Red Pill to 3 different male friends and they all told me, “Yeah, your definitely alpha.” I literally had no idea – and now I realize this is part of being a natural. I had an N of about 100 before I got here (stopped counting at 70…This was why I always had a hard time with game, I thought guys who couldn’t talk to women were ridiculous and could not understand their problems. I could always talk to women.

    My point? I was still clueless about women. I got destroyed in my marriage. I had a few views that worked and some adaptations I made after my divorce, like deciding I would never take any shit from a woman. I remember my GF going off on me about taking a wrong time on a romantic weekend. She got really out of hand and I simply turned to her and said something like. “Shut the fuck up now. I have no idea where you got the idea that you can speak to me like that but I simply won’t put up with it.” As I did this I was pulling the Landcruiser over and continued cuz she was still bitching. “And if you don’t. I will drop you off on the side of the road right now and you can fucking call a car service to take you back to NYC.” She still didn’t comply and I then said, “Shut up or get the fuck out – or I’ll shove you out.” She just shut up and calmed down. It was like watching a child get over a tantrum. She later told me, “No man has ever talked to me like that, it actually turned me on.” Fucking head case. I shut her up another time by simply grinning and saying, “Simmer down, princess.”

    But I had no idea what I was doing. I also think my “alphaness” was situational. I was good looking, in my prime, making a shit ton of money and successful and confident. I believed I was hot shit and also nexted girls ruthlessly. Now that I’m older, I don’t have any of that stuff going on for me, I’m also not nearly as successful as I was back then (working on it) so there is no more ‘natural’. My game doesn’t work. My frame was conditional on my situation and how I assessed my value based on externals, and as long as they were in line, I was good to go. But even then, my game was shit. While I had an N of about 100 before taking the Red Pill, the truth is that I literally could have fucked 1000 women. I was in NYC, traveling on expense accounts, constantly around hot ass but I was incompetent at pick up. I had a few tricks that worked sometimes, but even then, I often fucked it up.

    It’s so weird for me to talk about this. Each of us here is on our own path – whether it’s the reformed Brony guy upthread getting the courage to just go out, or me finding out that my frame is shit because I think I’m shit now and being driven to ego gratification by fantasy because I can’t handle my “faded glory”, we are all on some kind of trajectory.

    @Softek – Holy shit dude, the hits just don’t stop coming for you, do they? FWIW, I hear you internalizing way too much of this woman’s shit and you are in a very self-destructive place I think. There is more going on than oneitis so listen to the guys here who understand BPD. But I know you can work through this too – you have worked through harder shit than this, I’ve watched you do it right here.

  78. @Camaro. Dude, if I were in your shoes I couldnt sleep. What you described-her waiting oitside the bathroom- is chilling. As in ‘Psycho’. If you were my friend I’d be very worried for you.
    Call a friend. Have a witness. Do whatever it takes to execute your plan. Get The Fuck Out.
    Best of luck. Hang in. Be strong. Take care of number #1. Down the road you’ll be balls deep in some.hot broad.and this will be.a bad memory.

    @NBTM: what’s your problem dude?

  79. Here is my advice. I know you didn’t ask for it, so don’t tell me, I don’t give a shit.

    1. Don’t get fat.

    2. If you are at all fat, get unfat.

    3. Get some strenuous exercise at least once a week.

    4. Stay active. The older you get, the more difference it makes.

    5. Drink a gallon of water a day.

    6. Eat lots of vegetables and plenty of protein.

    7. Jack off or fuck regularly but not compulsively.

    8. Get 7 hours of sleep a night.

    9. Laugh at yourself at least as much as you laugh at others.

    10. Know it is easy to avoid worry as long as you remember that the world may as well go fuck itself.

  80. @Camaro – You’ve said the magic words – you don’t feel safe. These kinds of instincts are rarely wrong. Also know that you probably are already telegraphing a different vibe to her right now as you make these decisions and given her previous violence and what you describe, I’m like, “Why wait?” Get the fuck out tonight. Go sleep on a friend’s couch – whatever. Who knows what she’ll do if she thinks you are leaving? Talking about knives, creepy staring at the bathroom door while you are in it? She’s batshit dude, run – NOW!

  81. @Camaro

    You keep recognizing warning signals, that’s good. It also means it’s time to get out. You would not have mentioned the creepy situation with her standing outside while you were on the crapper unless you knew it was messed up, as well as dangerous. I’ve seen some creepy and fucked up shit in my life. A previous incarnation of my career was working in the media. You hang at the cop shop, courthouse and run out to breaking news enough and you witness first hand raw crazy. I kinda got a bit creeped by what you wrote.

    It’s one thing to read YaReally’s discourse on his version of guy crack for guys that hold power as well as have game, frame and deep insight over these type of women, but that is not you. You need to get out ASAP. Your wife is not something to experiment with for kicks and monkey fuck. She is insidiously toxic and potentially mortally dangerous for YOU.

    Congrats on making the decision about the divorce. Be subtle and careful with your emotions and body language until your bag is packed and you are out the door. Avoid eye contact.

    Simply backing up what the others wrote cuz it’s obvious stuff, but easy to let your guard down once you feel confident about your choice.

  82. @ scribblerg

    Thanks for the support. This is basically the only place I have left to go for advice/clarity on any of this stuff.

    tl;dr = I’m a doormat. I have the Doormat Operating System installed in my head. That’s the main problem in my life. I don’t know where I learned it or where I picked it up. But that’s what’s in there. I can remember a million examples of this programming all the way back from childhood. Self-sacrificing, self-defeating, ultimately self-destructing.

    And until I address that and CHANGE, well….I could climb to the highest mountain in the entire world, and I’ll still be a doormat. Go to the depths of the deepest ocean and I’ll still be a doormat.

    Internals. The real bull work I have is facing myself and overcoming this pussy response to everything — letting everyone walk all over me. I’m dealing with a situation at the same time as all this mess….a client that doesn’t want to pay me for my work, and also expects me to take it back and redo the job for nothing. Everyone I’ve asked, including my friend who’s been in the business for 50 years, said he’s a lunatic and is being completely unreasonable and/or trying to take me for a ride. My work came out beautifully.

    That shouldn’t even be an afterthought. A proper response would’ve been to demand my payment and also refuse to give his piece back to him until he gave it to me. The situation is ridiculous.

    And yet here I am stressing out over this fuckwit and letting him take advantage of me, just the same as I’m stressing over this relationship I’m in and focusing completely on her and not at all on myself.

    I seem to always have the same problems in life, probably because I haven’t changed the common denominator: me being a doormat.

    Thanks for the encouragement. You’re right. I’ve made it through harder things in my life. What I have now is a chance to further self-destruct, or turn the ship around and reinvent myself.

    It hasn’t been easy, but I do feel farther along than I was a year ago. I wasn’t getting any work and also wasn’t getting laid. At least now my problems are a step higher than that, lol. Dealing with asshole clients and relationship drama and confusion. I might have to eject myself from the current situations. We’ll see.

    At least I’m on the field now. Getting my ass kicked, but I’m learning. Thanks again scribblerg and everyone else for the encouragement/advice. Been a huge help.

  83. Hey Not Born This Morning,

    What the fuck dude, who shit in your Wheaties this morning? Why the dickhead attitude?

    It’s one thing to have a reasonable argument with Rollo or anybody on this site. But you’re being a complete disrespectful moronic asswipe.

    Why do I say that? Because I respect the totality of what this place is and why it exists. I challenge you to have a tenth of one percent of the insight into gender dynamics as well as the fucking patience it takes to repeat yourself over and over for years to the men that arrive here looking for help. You come here shitting on the ground? Fuck you. I view this as a semi-hallowed virtual place for men to better their lives, create intelligent discourse and learn about masculinity and insight to myself. And write run-on sentences occasionally.

  84. Holy fuck watching Uber girl brought back some memories for me. Back in Uni I was buying into the Bluepill lie big time and had tried to be captain save-a-ho by trying to domesticate one of those. Really bad idea. she was fucking damaged, sure enough a demon in bed, night one went down starting at the uni-bar and I pulled her in a matter of minutes, had her home and fucking my doors off in literally minutes. In a few weeks she was living with me. Sure enough over time she tried to jam a wedge between me and the rest of my life, friends etc but I hung strong on a lot of that. As a result it always became a source of friction.
    At one point she amped up the crazy to level 9 and started pulling uber girl shit throwing all my belongings off the third floor balcony all over the street and the lawn.
    Another time she went fucking bananas and we ended up with the cops coming over. I called them, I remained steely eyed calm on the phone the whole time while she was going off her nut, the cops eventually arrived, I wouldn’t hang up the phone until they arrived in person, I stayed sitting in a chair the whole time working as hard as I could to not smack her up given that she was destroying the house, hitting me, threatening me all the same shit as the video. It happened at one of those political correctness peaks at uni and the height of no means no so I was being really careful to not incite the wrath of the FI and she knew it 100%, so she was doing everything she could to make me go off.
    I put the cat outside and locked him out so he wouldn’t become a pawn in her histrionics and end up getting chucked off the balcony like most of my possessions.
    Cops finally did arrive and she went into complete fabrication mode. It was a male and a female cop. I just stayed calm and reasonable like the uber driver in the video. I explained everything calmly and it was clear that the cops believed me but they still ended up with me having to leave the house for 24 hours because you know, pussy pass for everything.
    After that I kicked her out but kept seeing her hoping I could fix it, but it was a mistake, of course she ended up fucking one of my best friends and probably had been for some time.
    She needed a constant supply of drama in her life and high octane drama at that.
    In bed it was off the hook much of the time, both a combination of flat out crazy and total slut, the drama peaks were massive like the Himalayas.
    It took me a while to recover from that chick but it was a learning experience for sure, it hardened me quite a bit. I actually didn’t touch another girl for something like nine months after her I just went monk mode to finish my thesis and find myself and my own center again.
    She was my number one most crazy bitch, but I had two others that came close.
    One I dated in HS. Later on I found out she dated a friend of mine in uni. She would pull all the usual “lets you and him fight” kind of stuff. At one point she literally tried to burn down my friend’s frat house, set his room on fire and stormed out of the house.
    My number three most crazy chick was also at uni, she started out not so crazy but she started fucking me in studio at school which was hot for me but kind of sucked for her fiancé particularly given that it was a small faculty and everyone knew about it. She had mad baby rabies too, she kept a pretty good lid on her crazy but we had one emotional peak experience just after the school year and she revealed her true colours. I literally got her up from the dinner table, took a ferry to the parking lot, got in her in the car, drove her home, dropped her off at her place, locked her in her own apartment and threw her keys back in her own window and drove back to the party we’d been at. Next morning she called trying to figure out what happened and I cut her off forever, never to look back. (Still had three more years of school with her after that all the time her trying to loop me back in but I just gave her total cold shoulder)
    The worst uber-hot BPD chick I dealt with was my brother’s GF / crazy slut etc. She was a walking talking breathing ad for hypergamy. Smoking hot, petite firecracker. Every time he looked left or right she would fuck some other guy. He never kidded himself that it was exclusive but it was just insane what a slut she was. We all knew her as Hooker Barbie. I must of had 100 times when she made it clear she wanted to fuck me, but mostly it was about yanking my brother’s chain and trying to stir up shit with my fiancé. That “relationship” was a total shit show every single fucking day. Never ending stupid antics constantly red lining my brother.
    Eventually my brother tried to kill himself, literally due to her antics. I was the one he called, so I had to go over to his place, drag him to the hospital, get his stomach pumped and all that. I wound up making him come to live with me and my then fiancé just to straighten him out for a year. Suffice to say, even he as a natural Alpha needed almost a decade to get his bearings again after dealing with that bitch.
    Best indication of crazy is how it makes normal people around them crazy.

    @Camaro, you have my sympathies and unequivocal support, GTFO as fast as you reasonably can if you are dealing with that shit. Try not to question your own sanity and integrity, chicks like that are a disease and distort all reality around them like a gravity well. I hope you make it out in one piece and I hope you can find yourself again once you recover because chicks like that really do steal part of you to feed off of.

  85. @Camaro, I just went back and read all your posts.
    RUN!!! is all I can say. Ok, actually have your jump bag packed and ready at the office or something, not at home. Stay cool, try to not to show too much behaviour that is different then how things have been for the past number of months so you don’t tip your hand. Prep your escape and GTFO in one single shot for your sake. Absolutely like the movie HEAT, you gotta be ready to drop everything and walk hard with no “easing out”.
    Chicks like this will “hoover” you. She senses you backing away so she is turning up the sex etc to keep you in her vortex. If she senses you really are going to jump ship she will do a 180 and go full psyhco. That explains the bathroom incident, she was probably trying to catch you on your phone texting a buddy or a side piece etc. PS, part of hovering with all the sex is to try and get pregnant to keep you in the guilt hook. DO NOT STICK YOUR DICK IN THAT!
    She will come back and try to invade “your spaces” like work etc. Be ready for the shit storm. When you finally do walk you have to prepare your work mates and immediate family, friends etc. Keep it simple. “She is insane, likely BDP, I made a huge mistake but for my own safety I am out. This is not recoverable, do me a favour and do not try to convince me that it is, do not try to “help her” make this all better. This is my relationship, my problem and it’s over, respect my choice or you will suffer too by being sucked into the vortex of her sickness, I just want to be healthy and sane, help me by respecting my choice”.

    After I got off the crazy train and went into monk mode it really helped me a lot. A mental fog lifts and you find clarity. My first chick after monk mode was a smoking 19 year old ten years my junior with an n count of 1 who was sweet and kind and gentle and genuine. She was like an RP unicorn and was a complete and total contrast to insanity chick. It was like my reward for going monk mode.
    Monk mode also helps you disentangle yourself from the web of lies and manipulation that your wife will have spun. It sucks all the drama oxygen out of the room when you disengage hard and you go quiet because she is unable to get a rise out of your immediate circle of friends and family. She will try to provoke, guilt trip, cry, wail, flail about, accuse you of the worst of things, make amends, all of it. But it’s all bullshit just trying to get that last gasp of drama out of the relationship. Only way to deal with it is to cut off all contact for your sake.

    Good luck, we’re here for you.

  86. PS Camero.
    When I split with my number one crazy I had to deal with the hard truth that she was probably fucking one of my best friends and a bunch of people knew it. I realized that obviously he was no friend and likely a bunch of people around me knew it too and for whatever reason said nothing, so not friends either. Part of going into monk mode was to deal with that sad reality as well. It was kind of lonely but it felt good to be just me on my own in many ways. She destroyed the trust I had in everyone around me in my university environment and that follows me to this day, her actions and my blue pill denial destroyed some of my best friendships. That was probably the hardest part for me to deal with in the long run, it really rattled my trust in people in general. In many ways it was my first real step towards red pill understanding but a decade before I swallowed the pill.
    I was lucky that I had an entirely separate life back home that she never wanted to engage in so it was generally unsoiled by her poison. It became a source of strength for me to still have those friendships in a world that was entirely mine and my values etc. To this day those people are still my close friends and we trust each other with out lives when we share dangerous activities together. I am thankful she never fucked that up for me.
    You’ve always been able to pull chicks, so don’t let the fear of losing a hottie bend your thinking. That sweet 19 year old I started dating was what I needed. It helped that she was really pretty and in her prime but what was more important was how “normal” she was. She restored some of my faith in humanity. That having been said, it was really good that I took that break and didn’t just run into the arms of some other chick or I never would have taken the time to reconcile the shit that had happened and taken the time to accept my own culpability in what went down. You’ re about to walk out of a war zone, give yourself the time, space and permission to process your emotions once you get out. It takes time to get back to a reasonable psychological base setting after shit like this. It’s a time for growth and learning, don’t let it get pushed aside by more pussy.

  87. @Scribblerg

    It does not fight in the face of evidence. The in group preference that you are referring to is the idea of the female collective whereas I am talking specifically about gangs (not gangsta gangs – but groups of men with a common identity). The idea that men associate themselves in groups large or small groups with a certain identity (think of groups of male friends all the way to political parties) and they have within them rules that people obey by.

    While woman would relate to a group of women because of pussy. Men need common ‘ideals’ to relate to each other.

    I see men as wolves – a wolf may hunt alone or may hunt in a pack. He is safer in a pack – but he needs to obey the hierarchy within it. Men do conform to these unspoken rules. Women conform to gender identity and social standing and jump between groups.

    Check this video where I cite evidence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ELBoZmXZaM

    As for the rest of your points. The idea that we deserve better is an idea that existed from the very beginning and lead to whole movements that changed already placed preconceptions within the human psyche. Whereas I agree with your premise that men should not believe that they deserve better and just wait for it to fall from the sky; I believe a man of today should believe that he is deserving and fight to get it for himself.

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