A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

733 comments on “A Teachable Moment

  1. “In the west however, women collectively are failing their burden of performance by not replacing the population at a growth or sustainable level.”

    If the current population were cut in half (US or world) it would still be greater than it was when I was born and I would still not notice a particular shortage of people.

    We were able to fight WWII with less than half the people we have now. We were able to fight WW1 with less than 1/5th the people we have now. We were able to fight the first global war (the ages of exploration and colonialism) with less 1/10th the people we have now.

    Most of us serve no greater social function at all.

    The economic model that your statement relies on is only need to feed . . . the FI.

    Your essential point, however, is one of the things I am pointing out when I say, “It’s babies, all the way down.” If women had no burden of performance, Betty Friedan wouldn’t have written The Feminine Mystique rejecting it.

  2. I actually am starting to think that women’s “option” to perform should no longer be protected by society or by law.

    I look at it like this..

    If I have an unshakable burden of performance, and my performance is how I will be judged… then why should my performance *ever* be judged against someone with an option not to perform? This is like mixing financially compelled workers (indentured servants) and volunteers in the same workforce, punishing those who are compelled to work when they don’t meet standards, ignoring the volunteers when they don’t meet standards… yet rewarding both of them equally. The system even goes so far as to punish the compelled workers if they ever point out the inequity.

    I’m not saying that you tell women, “no, you can’t have a career, ever.” But I am saying that women should be given absolutely no special treatment in the male workforce. That means if you are a young woman, working alongside men, you do not get maternity leave or any those other special consolations just for having a vagina. This means that, yes, women will be discriminated against when interviewing, because the interviewer will consider, “Is she going to become a mother and throw all of my effort training her into the trash, forcing me to hire someone new?”

    Sorry ladies, but the simple fact is that you are not, overall, as valuable to the labor force, because you always have the option of leaving or not performing as high. Demanding special consideration is just pure damage to male structures of merit, and frankly degrades mens assessment of their own value to society.

  3. @ Andy

    “As with dogs, who if they cannot identify the pack leader, willl try to lead the pack – a woman who can’t feel that a man is leading her, will try to lead. ”

    Agreed. They’re totally like dogs. lol. Hilarious and True.

    “So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission?”

    I do. I love that shit. Embrace your masculinity. ”

    Lol….very nice Andy

  4. Rollo: “Women have an option of performance, and they will literally restructure the laws and narrative of a society to maintain their prerogative for it.
    If they choose to perform, great, but they reserve the option to not perform and still be held to the same standard.”

    Divided Line: “I’m trying to let women off the hook so that I can stop feeling such overwhelming contempt for them.”

    You might want to let women off the hook collectively at the moment. Otherwise it might make you think too much instead of just doing. Or write five paragraphs (as is your style, curious I think…).

    But singularly don’t do that if you happen across a fine inter-sexual partner at the ground up on the individual level. I.e. don’t settle for just anyone to be your partner if it is to be anything more than short term. Hold a LTR partner to standards and don’t be afraid to say No! before, during and after the relationship. Short term, sure go for it, let them off the hook.

    1. One delicious irony I heard in the Roosh/Elam talk was about how Paul was giving advice to men about how to vet for “quality women” and how best to avoid divorce rape by doing so wisely.

      Coming from either one of these guys it’s hilarious, but Paul still clings to his equalist fantasy that women’s reason can be appealed to, or that it would ever override her Hypergamous firmware.

      He thinks only ‘low quality’ women are Hypergamous and it’s a personal character flaw rather than part of her wiring. Only ‘high quality’ women have the self-control to turn off their Hypergamy and behave well for men such as himself.

      To Elam Hypergamy is a bug, not a feature.

      1. You give Elam far too much credit. He actually hasn’t thought it through at all because, sadly, for all his posturing he doesn’t really care about male sexual agency. He’s never digested fully and accepted male sexual desire as legitimate and not something to be controlled and suppressed by the FI.

        Hence, it never occurs to him that a fully realized man will want to have women sexually available to him regularly and on terms he’s okay with.

        He’s an “equalist” and a very superficial one at that, topped off with a shitload of anti-feminism

        1. He doesn’t think things through, because at root he’s a Machiavellian self-promoter. His eyes tend to look whichever way the wind is blowing.

        2. Thank you for saying that Scribbler. Honestly, I think the manosphere is far to nice to Elam. The man is a non-zero level egoist, and completely blind to the base evil he is subscribing to.

  5. @DL

    “So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission? It seems as if we do, but it doesn’t seem to be as dominant a feature of male sexual desire as fetishizing admiration is for women. Am I wrong about this? Women clearly care about dominance, but it doesn’t seem like men care as much about submissiveness. The puzzle pieces don’t seem to fit together as neatly as one would like.”

    Say what? Since I have gone red pill, I have thrived on sexualizing her submission. As I said in my first comment here about 2 months ago (passive reader/student for 10 months or so), since I have gone red pill (about 1 year ago as of now), I have had sex on average more than once per day with my wife (easing down a bit now to 6-7 times per week now). I only desire this much sex because of the psychological rush I get from dominating and objectifying her often that I get physically pumped by her submissive excitement to me. It is like a drug, which is one of the challenges I am having as it leads to idealistic notions that this is a steady state and I relax, leading to the cycle I mentioned at the beginning of this post, domination, enjoyment of it, relaxing, and shit testing resistance that requires my pulling back before repeating, etc.

    1. Yeah, but it’s not as if it’s a reverse hypergamy or something. It’s not like men are blowing up their marriages, relationships, and families because women aren’t submissive enough. It doesn’t seem to have the same widespread and consistent social repercussions as women chasing dominant men does.

  6. @ Rollo Tomassi

    “Women have an option of performance, and they will literally restructure the laws and narrative of a society to maintain their prerogative for it.
    If they choose to perform, great, but they reserve the option to not perform and still be held to the same standard.”

    I realized this consciously when the whole “man up” movement was really picking up steam. It occurred to me: “Woman up” has no meaning. So what do we say to a woman who doesn’t live up to her responsibilities?

    It is like calling a woman a coward; there is no stigma to it because there is no expectation for a woman to be brave. The trouble is, people misinterpret this statement for equating “expectation” with “capacity.” Woman have the capacity to perform or be brave, but there is no expectation that they do so, and their value to men is not based on these things.

    This also explains why calling a woman a “loser” or a “failure” has no stigma either, but it is used effectively to control men.

    Feminists love to talk about double standards between men and women, but they complain only when the double standard restricts the behavior of women, and this is a prime example.

    1. For as much as I’ve detailed mens’ burden of performance, there is still a set of men who get offended by it because they think that performance is exclusively for the approval of women.

      It’s not. That burden, prerequisite or privilege if you like is about the merit and character of the man. Women’s attraction/arousal may be a byproduct of that performance, but men do not have the option to opt out of how it reflects on him.

      Even when you cop the mindset of “well, I don’t care what anyone thinks of me” that itself is an article of performance. Women have the option to opt out and still be well thought of, men do not.

  7. @LostITP:
    To answer your question about the lack of sexy sons these days,
    I refer the honorable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago (5:33 pm on 1/18):

    “What we all need to remember is that the Blue Pill is a hivemind-spread cultural idea that spread airborne like Ebola in the mid-to-late 70’s and continues now: be a sensitive new age guy (SNAG), show your feminine side, show you’re nice and not like those awful sexist MCP’s and Someday You Will Be Loved. Maybe it was a reaction to Free Love and the soulless Swinging 70’s, maybe it emerged partly from second-wave feminism, maybe it was a mental whammajammer from the Bilderberg Group. Just about everyone bought into it, and they still do. And unhappiness abounds for both men and women, who don’t get what the Blue Pill promises. We’ve all bought into the lie, As often happens in history, when we see the lie for what it is, we don’t confront it, we blame ourselves because we didn’t do the Blue Pill Dance right. And keep colliding with the floor.”

    The neutered feminized men you see going into college and coming up from high school are the triumphant final product of the Blue Pill hivemind. (There are a few Alpha-ish exceptions of course. They will continue to get laid). By and large, these enforced Betas and Omegas know not to bully or do anything to hurt anyone’s feelings (i.e., tell a rude joke). They are sensitive souls who have been raised to be super-special/everyone’s a winner and therefore can’t handle outright rejection, bad feelz or hostility. So at most they do a bit of snark.

    Though fourth wave academic feminists can’t believe it, these men have already absorbed Yes Means Yes as law and accordingly know not to approach any woman who might take umbrage at their advances and have them suspended or expelled. They just want to get their degrees without fuss and move on. They have the same 7x testosterone as all other men, and the same urges, but they have learned under gender theory those are non-intersectionalist thought crimes to be suppressed. Hence the rise of online porn, furry/fetish culture, and the Death of Dating. Boys do not ask girls out, not even to proms and dances. If the girl say no the boy has a sad and jumps off a bridge, while she reports him to the Dean of Students. (or razzes back like Amy Schumer). So social things are done in groups, and within those groups some fumbling form of fornication or its variants might occur through pairing off within the group. So-called sex-pozzie girls might get the nerve to approach alphas or simulacrums thereof, and might get the odd bang if they time it right. They LJBF other men but aren’t sure why they’re doing it though it feels right and proper.

    Otherwise – for these and other sociological/economic reasons best discussed elsewhere – the old prehistoric ratio of 10% of alpha/athlete/political mogul men sexing up 80% of all women could be restored. The frustration and possibly violent conduct this will create can be seen right now with Arab culture, where polygyny by the ruling class was the rule milennia before Islam, and the only hope of sexual congress for many such men was/is the afterlife. Keep an eye on other male-overpopulated cultures like China and India in particular for similar eruptions. It will be no picnic for women either, who already complain about the surfeit of dull needy Nice Boys and the Strong Independent Women’s inability to find sufficient alpha males worthy of their orgasms and eggs who will commit upon demand. Yes Scott Adams is working this side of the street on his website.

  8. @Rollo, You really can’t say that enough (I have read much of what you have written, here and elsewhere, and I am still trying to get the firmware fully engaged with it. There are several things at play here, including:

    1. Women can be gamed into the behavior you want (in the short run), which signals falsely to men that they can be pretenders forever. While the “fake it till you make it” can ultimately prevail, it will because one actually makes the changes to “make it” after tasting success, but because simply faking it will be sustainable.

    2. Since sex/women are so high on our priority list, and most of what is discussed in red pill forums, it is easy to lose sight of our (different, but similar in their importance to us) missions for our lives. We need to get out and (yes, the cliche is true) “Just do it”!

    Thanks, as always!

  9. Wish I could edit comments…lazy writer I guess. Missed close paren and last sentence should have “…, NOT because faking it will be sustainable.”

  10. “Arab culture, where polygyny by the ruling class was the rule milennia before Islam, and the only hope of sexual congress for many such men was/is the afterlife.”

    You don’t see a lot of men from the House of Saud strapping on suicide vests.

  11. @ Rollo Tomassi

    Yes, I think that is the hard thing for a lot of current crop of MGTOWs to get (not the Rob Fedders version). They’re not just expected to perform for the sake of women or sex. Men have expectations of each other, that they be productive and useful. Even if you’re not trying to get a girl, that doesn’t mean you are freed from all expectations and can just sit around and do nothing.

    It’s why even outside of intergender relations, a man calling another man “useless” or “worthless” is an insult and has attached social stigma. It’s why one of the tactical virtues of masculinity that Jack Donovan describes includes mastery or competence. Men admire other men who are competent, and that competence is achieved by performing. None of this innately involves women.

      1. So far not a fan of what I think will end up happening: now instead of just skipping to the last few comments to see what’s been posted, if a comment section is like 8 pages long that means scrolling through every comment for 8 pages to see if there’s a new comment attached to it. I think people will miss entire conversations they didn’t realize were happening on page 4 while they’re having one on page 6 before they also jump to page 8 to see what new comments are there only to see someone say “check what I wrote in reply back on page 2 just now”

        That’s my guess at how this’ll play out lol CH’s nested comments work because there’s no multiple pages to them and a lot of them are just little one-off drive-by comments VS the multiple paragraph discussions people leave here. Plus his blog width is wider so there’s less vertical scrolling. And a line down the left side so when you’re reading a comment you can see where it’s responding to easily by following the line up. And each new thread is a different shade that also helps link things together.

        https://memecrunch.com/meme/FS81/i-m-the-party-pooper/image.jpg

        1. The solution, to my mind, is an infinitely-wide space in which to nest. People generally have wider monitors now, no reason to restrict the width of a web page to my mind.

      2. That is my general preference, but it only works correctly if the thread scrolls. Broken up into pages it’s going to be a navigational nightmare.

  12. One delicious irony I heard in the Roosh/Elam talk was about how Paul was giving advice to men about how to vet for “quality women” and how best to avoid divorce rape by doing so wisely.

    I have said this before, frankly I expect Voice for Men to go the same way as the Good Man Project (which is more properly referred to as the Good Mangina Project). That means at some point, Elam will no longer be in charge, the women will see to that. No doubt at all he’ll be shocked and astounded when that happens.

    Perhaps that will be the shock that opens his eyes.

  13. Women these days (in these places) have two main problems. In no particular order. In no particular order…

    1) Their human desire to be high-status is in conflict with their female desire to have men who are more high-status. They are indeed like dogs: obsessed over dominance, hyper-aware of body-language indicating dominance (or lack of dominance), comfortable and happy being dominated, somewhat interested in gaining dominance, but disoriented and unhappy if they achieve it. Women and dogs are as they are because that is what evolution has made them, and there is no point in getting righteous about it.

    2) They are in denial about whether the primary male out-reproductive strategy is polygamy, hypergamy (having young, good-looking wife) being very much a secondary strategy. It is, of course. But they think that hypergamy is the sole out-reproductive strategy for both sexes, and that what satisfies the demands of hypergamy for men is so much “a social construct”) that with a campaign of finger-wagging they can make “high-status” replace “young, good-looking”, so that Hillary Clinton would be considered more attractive than Kate Upton.

    There is no way to solve the first problem, which is as inherent to the female condition as are menstruation and pregnancy. But the second problem was created by feminism, and could conceivably be solved. I seriously doubt that women who lived on farms back in the good old days had any doubt about the nature of the male animal, since they saw it all around them every time a female was in heat. And their mothers would feed them any feminist garbage about how male humans are not like that. They are.

  14. “So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarPDGPROMY

    Watch the clip all the way through if you’re still holding onto Blue Pill beliefs. Everything the girls are doing in this clip makes perfect sense when you understand women, that’s why Julien’s turned it into a routine he can explain to a crowd…because it’s that predictable when you understand chick brains and have fully swallowed the Red Pill.

    These same girls will be at the office on Monday and the guy in the cubicle beside them with a crush on them will be txting his buddy “dude I talked to Janice for 10 whole minutes at lunch!! She told me she doesn’t like bars and just stayed in to read by the fireplace this weekend. I think she might let me take her out on a date sometime, do you think this fancy restaraunt is good enough?? I better hit the gym first and wear my finest fitted suit…I hope she likes my expensive condo and lets me have sex with her.”

    Because a lot of guys (like Elam) will look at these girls and go “ok well he just found some DUMB DRUNK BAR SLUT WHORE RETARDS”, so they can hold onto their world view that the girls THEY’RE attracted to would NEVER act like this given this kind of stimulus from a guy with this kind of attitude. Madonna/whore complex and all.

    This is also why I ignore self-surveys and shit…would any girl EVER admit they would act like this? And be attracted to a guy who treats them and the people around them like this? Of course not. There will NEVER be like, Harvard data coming out of ivory towers by nerds who don’t go out, showing these kinds of things. But pushing the boundaries in the field reveals everything about human psychology.

    Also for the “looks matter” crowd note that Julien’s buddies are jacked compared to him and enter his conversations, but Julien’s the one making an EMOTIONAL IMPACT (an INCREDIBLY “negative” one in this case (and note how he gets just as much attraction as with a positive “you’re adorable, I had to come say hi” impact)) so the girls focus on him instead of ignoring him to ask the better looking guy’s questions etc (which is what a lot of TRP guys think is supposed to happen, they’re supposed to ignore the skinny manboob Julien to jump on Chad Thundercock’s jacked body). It would be hard for a lot of guys to look at Julien standing beside his buffer friends and explain why Julien is “higher value” to the girls…and if he was just STANDING there doing NOTHING beside them, or the girls saw photos of them, they would probably choose the jacked dudes. But once you take action it comes down to emotional impact…like I say that’s why girls love horror movies and every romcom has sad scenes that make them cry etc Girls want to experience the full range/rollercoaster of emotions. Go out this weekend and focus on learning to give them that, don’t worry about your 6-pack lol

    Also tons of devalidation and self-amusement concepts in action, and putting girls in competition with eachother, creating conspiracy theories etc. All of this shit is EMOTIONAL IMPACT. Compare that to the dialtone emotions most guys are feeding girls in an interaction…”so uhhh, where are you from? cool that’s cool…do uhhh do you like it here? That’s cool ya me too…so umm–” zzzzzz…

    Is this “SOLID” game? I mean, technically he has enough interest to bang these girls if he wants to lol but this is why Julien’s products (pre-worldwide-controversy especially) are so prime, because he’s out there pushing the boundaries harder than anyone else just to see what happens and to understand these little dynamics. NO ONE would think this would work if you just described it to them, or if they did they would be too chicken-shit or in scarcity to actually field-test it multiple times like this lol

    That all said, as of yesterday RSD Jeffy has joined Julien in being banned from Australia lol Just for being assosciated with Julien pretty much.

    And they’re banned because no one will actually look at their products or their teaching, they’ll just go by the soundbytes and the most controversial footage (that clip above where the girls are LOVING the interaction will be described as him berating girls and insulting them and manipulating them with his evil male privilege powers etc etc). Which is exactly what the RVF forum is doing right now as they cheer on the banning and rant about how RSD is just a scam and doesn’t teach men to better their lives and ruins men etc etc all shit that’s provably false and said by emotional retards running on assumptions or outdated snippets of information (aka not doing their homework)…which is why I jumped in with the MGTOW thing in that other thread, because I’d hate to see the TRM comment section follow the same path where we just shout rage based on possibly inaccurate assumptions instead of listening to the other side and seeing what’s really up. Just as I’d hate to see that with the MRAs, MGTOWs, TRP, etc. Us PUAs are used to people hating on us and just kind of do our own thing, but like the groups SHOULD all be working together, we have a lot more in common than the individual groups seem to realize.

    Australia seems to be a lost cause sucked into the tentacles of feminism and outrage culture in general with all their banning. RSD is handling this the same way as before, just say nothing and let the (extremely minor in comparison to the Julien one) controversy pass, like Julien explains here (this vid explains RSD’s handling of the Julien controversy, all a strategic strategy):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHOmS1B-em0

    Looking forward to Roosh trying to hold a neomasculinity seminar in Australia to show how to handle feminists, I’m certain that will go well lol

    Again would any girl on a self-survey indicate that THIS is the ride she wants to get fucked in? Of course not. Harvard data will never ever ever show you that this shit happens, let alone that it’s something you can consistently figure out how to trigger. (search for Jeffy infield footage to see girls getting banged in the van if you’re skeptical lol)

    And it’s still a few days before the weekend but these videos are long so there’s plenty of time to give them a watch, here’s a bunch of infield footage compiled together in high-res to motivate guys to go out this weekend and have some fun with girls:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2zn8Od5EmzHfDx86FBs30g/videos

    A lot of this is WAYYYYYY higher energy than you need to be, like I wouldn’t do half of this stuff ’cause it’s too goofy for me, but the point to focus on is how whether they’re being low energy or high energy (there’s a mix of footage in there, Todd is the lowest energy, Julien is the highest), the consistent principles are stuff like self-amusement and understanding how/when to escalate, isolating the girl, pro-actively dealing with obstacles/logistics, holding your frame through shit-tests, leading the interaction, etc.

    Also here’s Jeffy’s ride for anyone concerned their car isn’t nice enough to get women lol (“BUT I SAW TEH GOLDDIGGER VIDEO WHERE TEH GIRL ONLY LIKES HIM ONCE SHE KNOWS HE HAS A FERRARI”):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fqKHluYLgw

    Emotional impact, good or bad (ideally a mix of both). “The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference” and all that.

  15. “I realized this consciously when the whole “man up” movement was really picking up steam. It occurred to me: “Woman up” has no meaning. So what do we say to a woman who doesn’t live up to her responsibilities?”

    You don’t say anything to her.

    Law #9 Win through your Actions, Never through Argument

    Any momentary triumph you think gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory: The resentment and ill will you stir up is stronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion. It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions, withoutsaying a word. Demonstrate, do not explicate.

    If you insist on wanting to say something, you could always say: Next!.

    And note that some of us creative, adaptable types with resources can manage Next! to be either literal or figurative.

    Ref. see Plate Theory.

  16. @Rollo: Thanks for taking Divided Line’s question into an expanded explanation. The first part of his comment and your answer, in turn, answered my question about self as the mental point of origin.
    .
    I’m thinking BP idealism is protean and must be bound by RP ropes. When the beast is stayed it vanishes as there was nothing there to begin with — there is nothing but self. That is the origin.

  17. What the Fuck Rollo?

    A masculine forum with a like button and not a dislike button is the beginning of the end of masculine discourse. Where’s the dislike button?

    Oh, let me guess that wouldn’t be Politically Femininely Zuckerbergie Correct?

  18. @Culum

    “now we just need Sentient here ”

    i think he’ll be along (eventually), but i think he hates the non-nested format as much as i do…lol…

    “Not sure why the stack is so hard on you…”

    N…S…A…

    lol…

    do i sound like CO, yet?…lol

    re scott adams…i’ll take a look…thanks…(i think i went there once from a Vox post, but never stayed to digest it…)

    “He had a post a while back about how to beat ISIS etc (it had to do with reframing their fight away from being a heroic struggle to convincing the grunt footsoldiers that their commanders were running a con job on them). ”

    great minds think alike…Ow! [hurts shoulder trying to pat self on back…lol]

    that’s basically where my analysis led me…and the way to do it is through the power of the FI through social media…lol…like social jujitsu…

    i had the whole analysis laid out for comments and critique (based on 4GW theory, as well as FI/game theory) (i spent ALOT of time on that comment…)

    in 4GW theory, ‘martial action’ (revolution, invasion, open warfare, etc.) can’t exist without the support/consent of the native population…(that’s one reason for the invasion/reason it’s dangerous…to provide indigenous ‘support’ for future actions in situ…)

    basically, the idea was to use memes (which are virtually free for anyone to create and distribute = force multiplier…) to portray the muslim invaders as omega/gamma dudes (OVERLY excited about ‘girls’…lol…classic reframe/bf destroyer idea)…thereby taking away the ‘alpha stud’ appeal…and using the FI’s hypergamy mech (getting girls’ hindbrains on board…) as a force for good…lol…

    and feminist ‘spinsters’ as so desperate that ‘advocating’ for the muslim males was just like having a cat = desperately pathetic…lol…and young, hot girls = ‘sure, those ‘muslim’ males are fine for women who HAVE to settle (and can’t even get a beta…), but not for ME…ewww! CREEPY…’…lol…

    then, beta males will fall in behind that idea = only thing left is loading the cattle cars…

    hypergamy/shame used to save western civ…lol…

    “And he just had a recent post on how the United States is basically a matriarchy in some aspects (his version of writing about the FI). I’m convinced he’s just decided to write about the red pill using his own terminology to make it more palatable. ,”

    you say potato…i say delicious tuber fried in grease…lol…reality just IS…by any name…glad to see him working to save western civ…(first step to solving problems is correctly identifying them…)

    good luck!

  19. “DELICIOUS VALIDATION!!!”

    Maybe I’ve been hanging out virtually with Scribbler too much off-line, but I fancy being the devils advocate and being de-validated in a Socratic way (inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas).

  20. @kfg

    “Right. War Brides. Women whose chief misfortune was that the invading alphas they hooked up with were displaced by a second wave of invading alphas while they were still alive.”

    yep, that’s what i thought (thanks for the photo)…but those invading ‘alphas’ weren’t really…bc they would have just taken those war brides for themselves (and not allowed the shaming to occur)…these girls are being shamed by the ‘non-war brides’/butthurt betas…

    shaming is shaming = FI in play (resource protection)…i get the same thing (on a different level) when i hit on some college girl in front of an ‘age appropriate’ (lol) ‘strong, independent, woman’…

    good luck!

        1. @Rollo YaReally

          [dancing around, raises hands in the air Rocky style…]

          Whoo Hooo!…

          lol…

          ya know, i was just starting to get used to the non-nested format…lol…

          (just kidding…lol)

          seriously though, i appreciate the change, but i really would have adjusted…lol…

          good luck!

    1. “…these girls are being shamed by the ‘non-war brides’/butthurt betas…”

      I almost added that to my last comment, but considered it too self-evident to bother. Usually when I do that I’m wrong. This time I appear to have been at least close enough.

    2. Addendum: “…i get the same thing (on a different level) when i hit on some college girl in front of an ‘age appropriate’ (lol) ‘strong, independent, woman’…”

      When I was in my mid thirties I was walking down the street with my teenage fiancé and some upper middle class old bat in clown make up driving by slowed down, rolled down her window and hurled shame . . . at her.

  21. These same girls will be at the office on Monday and the guy in the cubicle beside them with a crush on them will be txting his buddy “dude I talked to Janice for 10 whole minutes at lunch!! She told me she doesn’t like bars and just stayed in to read by the fireplace this weekend. I think she might let me take her out on a date sometime, do you think this fancy restaraunt is good enough?? I better hit the gym first and wear my finest fitted suit…I hope she likes my expensive condo and lets me have sex with her.”

    LOL, yep, God I wish I could video some of my girls on my promos like this.

    There’s nothing like a cold bucket of reality when you see this.

  22. @Rollo

    “He thinks only ‘low quality’ women are Hypergamous and it’s a personal character flaw rather than part of her wiring. Only ‘high quality’ women have the self-control to turn off their Hypergamy and behave well for men such as himself.”

    = NAWALT…lol…

    you know, it’s really nice being able to have my comments pop out as soon as i post…thanks!

    good luck!

  23. “These same girls will be at the office on Monday and the guy in the cubicle beside them with a crush on them will be txting his buddy “dude I talked to Janice for 10 whole minutes at lunch!! She told me she doesn’t like bars and just stayed in to read by the fireplace this weekend. I think she might let me take her out on a date sometime, do you think this fancy restaraunt is good enough?? I better hit the gym first and wear my finest fitted suit…I hope she likes my expensive condo and lets me have sex with her.”

    LOL, yep, God I wish I could video some of my girls on my promos like this.”

    Tyler explaining this kind of thing in detail for the guys still trying to swallow the hard reality of seeing this kind of stuff:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqX3u12wTqw

    It was always around us, guys in the “secret society” knew about it, it’s just that we didn’t have it on video to shove in guys’ faces before lol The field will shove reality in your face until you accept it and adapt.

  24. @Jeremy: That’s powerful. Especially the parallel between nagging/manipulative women and a man who takes all of a woman’s fertile years and never impregnates her.

    @Scribblerg: You always give me the warm fuzzies. Thank you! Part of it is that outside of my contact with the world via the internet, I live my life entirely within a Christian context that emphasizes self-knowledge, growth, and personal responsibility. Undoubtedly it has a lot to do with who my husband is though and the fact that I look up to him so much.

    Submitting to a man of integrity IS delicious. Also, I do think that most female misbehavior has to do with either resisting that deliciousness because of some kind of wound to the woman’s sexual identity, trying to convince herself she doesn’t really crave it, or trying to get to it through inappropriate and ineffective means.

    But actually being there? Being shaped and led by a strong man? It’s like you’re a guitar that’s been in the closet and somebody took you out and tuned you and is playing your strings just right and it’s beautiful and it’s exactly what you were always meant to be and you just want more.

  25. Watching those videos… am I correct in my interpretation of the “girl brain” that the reason these women accept all of that and keep coming back for more is that what is said (by him) matters far less than the fact that they’re getting attention from someone they’ve already decided is high enough value?

    1. Jeremy – it’s worth watching Julien’s PIMP on this (plus some of YaReally’s explanations in his archive). Basically, the girls actively ENJOY the fact that he’s giving them emotions even if they are negative emotions. It’s not something they “put up” with because they like him – they like him BECAUSE he gives them emotions.

      That said you need to have *some* value and attraction to them to be able to say stuff like that without coming across as insulting – it depends on the frame and subcomms with which you say it.

  26. Wait I had a Like button just now! And nested comments! Where did they go??

    Rollo – if you’re playing around with the site right now one big thing that would be useful is the option to see ALL comments at once instead of paging through 8 pages of comments to get to the latest ones..

  27. Nice to see more real PUAs coming on the site. I’m loving all the detailed discussions of how men can actually get what they want versus the tedious pseudo-science and intellectual preening. Perhaps CH’s downfall is our benefit?

    @Ya – I will cease-fire on MGTOW for the time being in the interest of comity. If we don’t devolve into endless parsing and BroScience analysis that all end up in women being useless and evil, and how awful it is for men in this world, I’ll keep it up.

    But if not…

    Fyi, love the Julien vid up top. As I focus on actually using what I’m learning via Pimp and actually approaching without my soft-sugardaddy bullshit, I’m learning a ton. As a 53 yr old, aging natural guy trying to develop “Old Man Game” and approaching <25yo hotties, it's no mean thing (can approach late 30s with no prob as I'm clear I'm the prize there). I had no idea what an ego buffer the soft-sugardaddy stuff was for me, whew. Now I'm face to face with how I don't see myself as the prize for young hotties and it's actually funny now. I've had a few sets where I've been doing well, but the second it gets weird and i need to recalibrate or get pushback, I fold. 3 times in a row the other night. But now I can at least see it. More to come.

    I like the nested comments.

  28. damn!…that was fun!…nothing like being in the middle of an admin crisis…lol…

    i still need that validation button…lol…

  29. @kfg

    When I was in my mid thirties I was walking down the street with my teenage fiancé and some upper middle class old bat in clown make up driving by slowed down, rolled down her window and hurled shame . . . at her.

    Why is the world of available video cameras failing us on this? How am I supposed to cheat myself out of self-improvement by enjoying the righteous vengeance that other men are getting by doing this?

  30. @Jeremy @Culum
    “That said you need to have *some* value and attraction to them to be able to say stuff like that without coming across as insulting – it depends on the frame and subcomms with which you say it.”

    Right. Julien raises his value/attraction with standard PUA DHV stuff (that doesn’t involve “be jacked and rich”) but the main key to note is watch Julien and look at his subcomms…he’s not being “malicious”, he’s self-amusing with zero outcome dependence. Everything is said with an air of joking around and even when he gets serious at points like when he does his “look at you…you REALLY think you could get ME?” stuff where he goes super serious, he puts that pressure on her, then relieves it, with excellent calibration. He’s doing the equivalent of a horror movie making you terrified then giving you a happy ending.

    This is why guys fuck up in LTRs…they believe giving a girl bad emotions is “wrong” and they should only give her good emotions. But that completely ignores pure COMMON SENSE OBSERVATION that girls LOVE bad emotions…they don’t necessarily want ONLY bad emotions, but they want a mix of them. It’s GOOD to make your girl cry now and then, and yet if I posted that in a mainstream forum people would call me a monster because of how deep the social conditioning runs.

    Here’s Julien from PIMP explaining the concept more in-depth:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txDfzsPbNRo

    Notice how in both infield footages he’s giving them a rollercoaster of emotions, good and bad and ending on a good note (just like how a horror movie or romcom with sad or scary parts ends on a happy ending). The first infield footage he’s acting a lot more serious about telling the girl to fuck off and look how hard she chases when he does it (in the compilations I linked in my last post you can see more of this interaction, he makes the chick get on her knees in the club and beg him for his number (and then when she finally does it he says something like “you’re disgusting, I can’t believe you did that, if you DIDN’T do it I would’ve wanted you but I can’t believe you would do that I’m so unattracted now” AGAIN sending her on a rollercoaster)

    …but then notice that he switches gears suddenly into “tell me I look like a greek god” and he’s back to being playful, giving her the relief of good emotions after the dramatic scene he was playing out.

    And with the second infield footage he’s almost flat out cruel to this older chick, literally calling her old and just letting the silence hang. And again notice that once she’s qualifying herself enough he just cuts her off and rewards her with good emotions and look at her smile she’s happy as a kitten that’s caught the string.

    Again this is stuff that no one would go “this will TOTALLY work” and no self-survey would EVER admit would work and every chick would say “oh maybe some low self-esteem bar slut skank whores would fall for that but my friends I would tell him to fuck off”, and most guys would never experiment with, but Julien pushes the boundaries which is why his products are the ones I recommend for gaming in this huge validation culture where chicks have too many options to bother chasing and flake all the time…these girls have to EARN Julien. Even though he’s just some skinny man-boob’ed schlub in a hoodie and there are way better looking guys around, Julien knows how to make girls chase his validation because he understands attraction and chick-brains.

    This stuff works even better on the hotter girls because everyone walks on eggshells around them, everyone is terrified to give a really hot girl “bad emotions”…not just guys, even girls will often walk on eggshells around them. Imagine what that kind of reality is like, where you can tell everyone is being fake around you and holding back what they really think and no one will tell you the truth about yourself or how they feel or your behavior etc.

    Then some asshole like Julien comes along, gets up in your face, and makes you feel shit that no one else has ever made you feel except maybe your dad or you’ve seen it in a movie or some badboy you had a fling with or some shit. And on top of it he’s calibrated and leads things forward…why WOULDN’T you fuck him and become obsessed with him? He’s giving you the thing other guys won’t: the rollercoaster of emotional impact that you pay MONEY to experience when you go to the theater.

  31. @KFG – Had the same experience with my 23 yr old waif GF when I was 38-39. She looked even younger, could have passed for 17. I took her away (mistakenly) to an old but high end spa/resort in the Shawagunks in lower New York state, the Mohonk Mountain House for a long weekend. Great place that I’d never stayed at before but had hung out in after hiking or climbing for a snack or chilling.

    Turns out it was a fave hangout of a white shoe, country club type, middle aged crowd – should have known, you can drop 500 a night easily so of course it was that crowd. All weekend long, she would get glares from the middle aged broads. None of the anger was aimed at me – the guys would secretly give me approving nods when their wives weren’t looking. It was so overt and since we were kind of stuck there (no refunds, typical resort shit – we would have left as it was so annoying and constant) the GF decided to have fun with it. She slutted it up a bit and when she got a look would kiss me or rub up against me – these women would lose their minds and som would actually grunt or yelp and few even had their eyes bulging and faces turning red. We discussed it and came to the conclusion that they felt they were entitled to me and that it was unfair for her to steal a guy who they thought was appropriate for them. Fit, good looking, dominant, successful – what on earth made these harridans think they were entitled to me?

    She could barely walk by the time I took her home, he he…It was a great weekend.

  32. Another great article, thank you Rollo! As to Divided Lines comments, and the article that accompanied it, well done. I appreciate DL saying what he did, he was honest/open to what he was going through, and that is how you find answers. You want someone to understand you, what you are feeling, and we do. I don’t know which commenter mentioned it, but they were spot on, that without a traumatic event, a low point, a rock bottom, I don’t think you can truly understand/accept RP. You need to have that life experience, that moment where you think you did everything right, and yet you failed, then felt like you got a “raw deal”. I’m sure some younger guys swallow it, and they have a huge advantage, but to sincerely accept this, to truly embrace it, you have to have had that “shock”, that trauma, that “gutting” that makes you question everything you were every told/sold all your life. I’ve unplugged many a blue pill man, that I’m most proud, but my successes were using their real world experience with women, their upbringing, and linked it to what I went through,so they could relate. I “got it” in terms of what they felt, what they went through, and in many instances predicted their outcomes. It’s like you open their eyes a little more each time, and slowly that “Red Pill” hits home. Divided Line’s comments resonated with me, because that was me when I first discovered RP. It’s a journey, its a process, but once you swallow it, you cannot throw it back up. In essence, take solace in the fact it gets better, you come to terms with it (happily I might add), you become awakened to things few do. Soon you won’t see a movie, commercial, a couple on the street, or friends that doesn’t validate the FI is everywhere, and you have an advantage with RP thinking and learning Game over other men. And for those who aren’t ready, just be there when they are, know too you were once them, and that emotional investment runs deep to their blue pill brain washing.

    And I appreciate that fact nobody jumped on him, as we are all here to relate our experiences, “connect the dots” as we realize we all go through it. I don’t know one person who didn’t go through this phase of swallowing the red pill. I went through this exact feelings, and literally the Red Pill is bitter, and it follows the 5 stages of grief. Thank you everyone, and DL we have your back my friend, we’ve all been there. It gets better, much better.

  33. @Rollo YaReally

    “That’s my guess at how this’ll play out lol CH’s nested comments work because there’s no multiple pages to them and a lot of them are just little one-off drive-by comments VS the multiple paragraph discussions people leave here. ”

    i think that’s actually right…don’t worry about it, i’ll adjust…lol…but thanks…

  34. @scribblerg
    “I had no idea what an ego buffer the soft-sugardaddy stuff was for me, whew.”

    That’s the first thing I try to shit on with older dudes. They think they’ve found the secret, just gotta be a sugardaddy to these girls, and it works enough and fits into their already established world view that they solidify it as “this is how you have to game as an old man, this is old man game”…but it’s not because it’s how attraction works, it’s because they picked the path of least resistance and didn’t want to go through the pain period to experiment with other approaches that actually reveal how attraction works. Again it comes down to “guys getting laid VS guys rewiring themselves properly internally”.

    Great vid from Julien on being the badass older man CEO if you haven’t seen this one yet, might give you some ideas on frame etc especially his infield experiments at 4 minutes in:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgPRfkvR5KA

    Again he goes out and experiments with it. But most guys won’t, they live in scarcity and when they get a hot girl talking to them they don’t want to risk fucking it up so they won’t push their comfort zones and try stuff that a guy like Julien will do. His story in this clip of experimenting with “badass old fat CEO” frame is what guys should be doing just to see what happens. That’s why we push guys to go out infield regularly, because when you have a lot of options to practice out there you can fuck around and risk losing girls here and there for the sake of building a stronger inner frame…Julien even describes losing girls in his experiment.

    “Now I’m face to face with how I don’t see myself as the prize for young hotties and it’s actually funny now.”

    The field will shove it in your face till you fix it lol It’s like I say, like you’ve lived a badass life in general, lots of manly shit and all, and if you just LARP’ed in comment sections you could be a super badass like half of the RVF…but at the end of the day none of it matters infield, all that matters is how internally confident you are and how does that reflect in your subcomms? These silly little girls can take a guy who’s climbed mount everest and killed people in a war and reduce him to a self-doubting mess that scurries away with his tail between his legs…that’s why I focus so much on building guys up properly with strong internals instead of just “get ’em laid as fast as possible”, because long-term it’s going to be better for them, especially as they get older. I haven’t done anything manly with my life in comparison to half you guys, but if I get old, fat, disfigured, lose my money, go bald, etc none of it is going to really affect my confidence because it’s internally based.

    “I’ve had a few sets where I’ve been doing well, but the second it gets weird and i need to recalibrate or get pushback, I fold. 3 times in a row the other night. But now I can at least see it.”

    That’s the first step (well, second technically): Conscious Incompetence. You know you’re fucking up. That alone puts you light years ahead of most guys who will spend their entire life in Unconscious Incompetence. Slow & steady, fix it piece by piece and do your Field Reports and analyses to narrow down sticking points. If you’re watching PIMP now, give SHIFT a look afterward, SHIFT has a lot of good inner game stuff that might help. For an older guy inner game is probably more important than external game because girls don’t expect a lot of inner game from a 21yo guy…that’s WHY they hit on guys a decade older than them like myself, ’cause they EXPECT a guy like me to have a solid internal frame, and they’ll expect that frame to be even MORE solid when I’m 50. Gene Simmons was (till the FI gutted him and he sold out to it lol) a good example of solid older man internals, tho I don’t personally relate to his vibe (I’m a lot more light-hearted).

  35. I don’t mind threaded comments, so long as they’re:

    1) All on one page (actually, this is my preference regardless of the format
    2) Either restricted in tree-depth, or allow for infinite character-width so that the top-down scroll is not completely broken by arguments.

    Failing those two, at the very least comments should allow the choice between threaded and flat-sorted-by-newest.

  36. @scribblerg – yeah I quit the sugar daddy stuff a couple months or so ago so in a kind of similar position to you. Some of the old CH posters have seen me post this before (lol) but since you were also in the sugar daddy thing:

    I spent two years actively on sugar daddy websites. I never paid any of the girls – no cash, cash equivalents or gifts. All I did was pay for their drinks (not dinner unless it was post-bang) and I paid gas/travel costs a couple of times.

    First year – lots of dates but less experience and calibration so only a few lucky bangs. Second year I tightened up online and offline game considerably and slept with about 15 girls (and this was in a 4 month period of active dating because my work schedule means I can’t go out for a big chunk of the year). I hardly did any cold approaching etc – just focussed on online stuff. And the girls were (unlike normal online dating) genuinely attractive (one of the last girls I slept with was a hot 19 year old redhead and that is my current “top” reference memory).

    It was a great experience to bypass the approach anxiety stuff and learn a lot about conversation and sexualization and escalation and lays under my belt. But I got sick of fending off the gold diggers and starting to dig myself out of a self-inflicted “provider” hole on every single date and interaction to work my way up to “lover”. It’s just easier to start without a self-inflicted disadvantage you know? And even some of those 15-20 lays – I could TELL it wasn’t genuine desire – even though I didn’t pay it was simply them offering a “free taste” to try and get me to pay (implicitly).

    Also some fantastic experience on several occasions of genuinely blowing through a girl’s provider hunting and turning into her AF which was insanely, insanely satisfying. It happened a few times but the most memorable was probably when this chick spent the first hour of the date very cold and telling me how she needed support and stuff and when I flat out refused, she literally flipped on a dime and started talking about how she wants to be treated like Maggie Gyllenhaal in Secretary and how good she is at giving BJs etc. She ended up giving me a BJ in the bar restroom – talk about the definition of genuine non-negotiated desire (it’s like her hindbrain basically figured out that I was NOT going to be her BB, so she may as well give in to her desire for me because she didn’t need to “impress” me anymore).

    (the biggest challenge is losing the regular sex – I’m very much a Thrill of the Hunt guy but still need *some* baseline sex).

    So yeah – I’m back to the cold approach stuff now (plus I’m playing around a little bit with Tinder because I’ve never used it and want to experiment..). Welcome to the light side..it’s more rewarding here, even if it’s a bit harder to get the initial contact going..

  37. Nested comments are better, but if you decide not to, perhaps adjust your “recent comments” plugin to show more comments than four. I usually use those recent comments links to jump to the newest comments. I’ll scroll up to where I last stopped reading and then read the rest of the comments on that current page. Kind of clunky, but it works.

    Yeah, good to see HABD here too. Get Sentient and we have a party.

  38. “Women: If silent, angelic and catalysts to mens’ personal growth. If speaking, cause of all problems, personal and global.”

    Yeah. And?

  39. @skribblerg, @nikochoski

    I probably should’ve been clearer that I was using the “I get pretty for you” argument as a straw man / example / hypothetical rather than as an aggravating situation from my actual life. In reality, what I do (probably because I’m a shitty listener) is just ignore and discount such an argument, and I also don’t make the opposite argument that when I put in a hard day’s work I’ve sacrificed for her.

    But I think there are good takeaways for me from what you’ve said: (1) if that happens, turn it into a moment of sexual play, and (2) the idea of “sacrifice” in relationships is probably not one that stands up to scrutiny, and (3) on a base, sub-intellectual level, women want to be passionately sexually objectified at least some of the time. Regarding (2), most things we do in life, even the things that subjectively seem like selfless sacrifices, we do for ourselves – even the things we do out of a sense of duty give us the moral “good” of having fulfilled our duty. Possibly women are either better at seeing through this construct, or just don’t care.

    My situation is that I was married for 11 years to a hot woman (she’s 41 and still very attractive) that I met in graduate school, where at the beginning, without knowing it I played it completely Red Pill. Every time she tried to pull some drama on me, I gave her the cold shoulder and it brought her back hotter and heavier every time. But then I got settled into married social life, focused my energy on my job and preparing for the future, and over the years, without really thinking about it ended up in a purely Beta situation, a henpecked, undersexed husband married to a harpy with bottomless needs and unending criticism and underappreciation.

    So also without knowing Red Pill, and after many many dissatisfying attempts to negotiate a better situation, I left her 2 years ago (we have a 6-year-old son whom I feel for and who lives with her, but he’s provided for and I see him often) and filed for divorce. Which drove her crazy, with hot and cold hatred and wanting to reconcile. In the meantime I did discover Red Pill and started screwing girls in their 20s, youngest 21 oldest 29. Not a shit-ton of them, 5 in 2 years, but I was constantly getting laid by women 10-20 years younger. Which is fraught with its own issues as you know, but at least it’s hot sex and a lot of fun. So while there was some point I would have happily reconciled with my wife, now that idea sounds absurd.

    My latest relationship was one that lasted a year, with a 6’1″ (I’m 5’8″) model-looking, long legs small-but-round-and-there tits, hot pert ass, beautiful face, 27-year-old career girl who was engaged (long-distance relationship) when I met her. We met at a bar, had a nice meet-cute and fun repartee, and she gave me her number (actually chased me out of the bar to give it to me as I was leaving with my friends). We went on a first date that I had to cut short because of a work thing. We were supposed to go to dinner on the second date, and just before the date she warned me by text that she’s actually engaged so I shouldn’t expect anything but friendship. Without missing a beat, I said “in that case, since it’s a friends-only thing let’s make it a lunch date and then for dinner I’ll go out with this other girl that I’ve been blowing off.” She agreed and of course throughout the date this later date got under her skin, even though the ground rules were friends-only. We had lunch, talked and had fun, and at around 5pm I said “well I better take you home.” We got in the car, drove a few blocks and then she said “why don’t we go to a wine bar I know – I’m buying. Can you cancel your dinner date?” Of course I could, and we ended up fucking that night. We started seeing each other constantly, and within a month she’d canceled her engagement just 2 days before the wedding, when both groom’s and bride’s families were in town and put up in hotels and all the venues etc. were booked and paid for. I got a lot of props from my friends (and even their wives and girlfriends) for that feat. We saw each other as boyfriend-girlfriend for a year, took fun trips to Europe and Mexico, and again, I must admit I started to get distracted by work and we slipped into a routine. Sex-wise she was spending the night at my place 3-4 nights a week and was extremely adventurous so I was satiated in that respect. BUT (dramatic music) I also started to like her and think of her as a friend. In fact, I even started to value her as a friend even more than I valued her as a hot fuck (especially since my eyes were now opened to the fact that finding an attractive young woman to fuck isn’t that hard if you know how to go about it – THANKS RED PILL – plus if you’re short and your woman is tall there are some geometry issues that keep the sex from being too great). Long story short, she broke up with me and went back to her ex-fiancee who is pure Beta. And I realized – I’d developed “relationship oneitis.” I missed having her around even though I consoled myself by consulting my black book of 20-something bimbos with whom I could fuck but had no hope of the nice friendship that I had with her. I still miss having her around but have to tough it out! After about a week of pathetically trying to convince her to come back, I decided I needed to cut bait and called her a cheap slut, and since then no calls or e-mails even when I’ve had a few drinks (very proud of myself).

    I started to have another thought (famous last words) – could it be that men who have some Beta tendencies (I’ve made some right moves to pull hot women over the years but I don’t consider myself natural Alpha at all) end up falling into a friendship with their woman, and start to apply friendship rules, while the woman, friendly as she might seem, doesn’t think of you as a friend at all and is perfectly happy to betray you (according to friend rules) once she senses you’re not properly objectifying her as a hot piece of ass?

  40. YaReally
    This is also why I ignore self-surveys and shit…would any girl EVER admit they would act like this?

    Of course they wouldn’t. Covert estrus plus sexual dimorphism at work.

    I can’t find the URL, but a study done in Canada 15 or more years ago is illuminating. Simple task: ask college women how many men they’ve had sex with, on a form.

    Group 1: Filling out a form with their name on it.
    Group 2: FIlling out a form that is promised to be anonymized.
    Group 3: Filling out a form while hooked up to a bogus “lie detector” machine.

    Anyone care to guess how that turned out?

    Women are like George Costanza, “It’s not a lie if you really believe it’s true!”.

  41. This is my first post here so first of all thank you Rollo for everything you are doing here. This blog features one of the most important pieces of writing I have ever read.

    (I am not a native English speaker so possibly … Mistakes have been made.)

    “To have thrilling art, you need to have boring life.” I was told by one of my professors at university. He was trying to tell me how routine and order are important so you can focus on your creative work.
    I thought that was my path, to be amazing artist focused on my work, having THE ONE woman etc. However after my redpill transformation, after I became popular and “cool”, I can no longer excuse the boring life I used to live. I have found my masculinity, started to travel again, returned to sports and so on.

    Now, the social results of my choices are awesome, however I don`t know if I can continue in my career path. The lives of my competition or mentors I used to learn from are exactly what woman hate (boring). They spend most of their time working, are not in very social environment and as far from cool and social kids as you can imagine. I was fine being one of them until I figured out that I can change, and I would dare to say – improve. The problem is I was one of the best , had ideals in my mind and bigger than life goals. Now I have became more practical and I am thinking “status trumps art” kind of thing.

    How do you decide if you should go into art career you could be great at, or the one that will give you status and money while looking through a red pill lens?
    All the advice’s I got so far has been to become great but poor artist, and now I feel like I learned to value practical status more than idealized achievement.

    To be more specific on the art thing. To be great in many crafts, you need to spend most of your time perfecting it. The results, however are understood by only the small circle and not by the mass audience. That creates quality but lacks quantity and you wont get much popularity and status. I wander if there are more artists/scientists that have this crossroad in front of them. I know that “hypergamy wise” I should get on the business side of things.

    I found many guys on game forums discussing career goals and I feel like most of them follows business/ money focused paths.

    Now there is this old dilemma of writer/publisher, director/producer, scientist/seller. At least where I live, the side dealing with money lives much better than one making it. I am at the beginning of my journey and have been successful in both roles. My red pill side is advising me to get status and money while my old blue pill idealism just wants me to do what I like.

    From my experience the girls are more interested if I say I am heading towards higher status career than towards intellectual achievement so I have a hard time optimizing my choices.

  42. Since suddenly comments aren’t nested anymore (my preference fwiw),

    Last comment was @elitelami

    “When men discovered that the earth was round not flat navigators didn’t bitch and moan about revising maps and having to design tools to accommodate the nature of the earths geography.”

  43. ” There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.”

    https://d5w4uv416ie49.cloudfront.net/quip_images/a9/28/ae282de73c3867cebb17802152e816ce3b7e.jpg

    I have many different incarnations of this saying all over my office.

    Hell, I would tattoo it on my back if I were into tats. That’s how essential I believe it is for men to recognize this in life.

  44. @Blaximus: Just because you aren’t interested in war doesn’t mean that war isn’t interested in you.

    I keep bringing that one up because we are at war, yet so many people seem to be disinterested in it.

  45. I honestly think this is the greatest online forum for men. Very addictive place too. I have learned a lot.

    I like the straight threaded comments format (or whatever it is called; one without nesting).

  46. “I keep bringing that one up because we are at war, yet so many people seem to be disinterested in it.”

    Paul Elam certainly seems very disinterested in “our” war, that being the one of the global Masculine Imperative (whatever that is), rather than his own small provincial battle. And he seems to mock the other battles going on in the theater of inter-sexual warfare.

  47. Oh, I think Paul Elam does think he’s at war. The problem is he simply accepts the battlefield and rules of the war as dictated to him by his enemy. He’s like early Rome attempting to understand Hannibal’s genius. Yet unlike Rome Paul is failing to understand that he’s losing, let alone why he’s losing.

  48. @Distortion

    …..

    ” From my experience the girls are more interested if I say I am heading towards higher status career than towards intellectual achievement so I have a hard time optimizing my choices. ”

    Sorry Distortion, but this sounds way too Blue Pill for me.
    1) Nobody can give you an answer what you should do in professional life.
    It’s your life and your decisions!

    2) Never do things just because you assume that women might like it.
    That’s BP..and not RP !!

    Welcome and have fun, Distortion

  49. @ Rollo Tomassi

    I don’t understand for the life of me why Roosh banned you from his sites but is talking to Paul Elam. In his video on the Red Pill schism Roosh says that in the future there will be two groups: neomasculinity and men’s rights activists, because the latter will be full of men who can’t wait to be “divorced raped.”

    What exactly does he disagree with you so much that he blocks you but it’s something that either doesn’t bother Elam or he’s willing to look passed (for the time being)?

  50. @The Question:

    AVfM has turned into A Voice for Housewives trying to Build a Better Beta, and Roosh V/RoK has turned into PUA’s trying to Find a Housewife.

    They’ve become natural frenemies.

  51. @kfg

    I definitely can see women trying to take advantage of this push for traditional housewives if it gains momentum. They could even have a bumper sticker slogan to signal their “quality girl” status: “I’m on the Red Pill.”

  52. @The Question

    I don’t understand for the life of me why Roosh banned you from his sites but is talking to Paul Elam.

    Paul and Roosh are “idealogues” whose income at this point depends on an idea. Facts are often very inconvenient to income streams.

  53. @Culum – While the circumstances were a little different – I only tried a real sugarbaby once – the seduction was always the same, I was mentor/provider – they were the prize, always.. I did learn some interesting things that I want to echo:

    I could flip the script sometimes and get them into a desirous state.

    When having sex, real dominance could be worked up to if I got them aroused enough. It could get pretty wild if the stars aligned just right and I think I needed to experience that againg, so I don’t regret it.

    It broke me in to how younger women see things and their sexual vibe – totally different from our generation. I find I have a hard time explaining this to guys my age who haven’t fucked some 20 somethings, they are just more upfront with their sexuality and less wrecked by feminism. It’s just not as big a deal to them.

    But in the end, they were the prize. Most of the time it wasn’t hot, desire sex. And it was all on their terms. Interestingly, the experience here is what made me see that wasn’t good enough for me.

    @Ya – Thanks for the vid. More approaches coming soon and will do detailed field report on sticking points. What is interesting is when my head is right, it just flows like butter in the initial open and convo. I can talk to women and am naturally high energy (more like Julien than I’d like to admit). In fact, I need to let more of that out – but I need to calibrate and be more dynamic. Like I said, more to come and I’ll do shift once i”m done with
    Pimp. It’s easy to just blow through the vids and not really listen.

  54. @Distortion

    ” To be more specific on the art thing. To be great in many crafts, you need to spend most of your time perfecting it. The results, however are understood by only the small circle and not by the mass audience. That creates quality but lacks quantity and you wont get much popularity and status. I wander if there are more artists/scientists that have this crossroad in front of them. I know that “hypergamy wise” I should get on the business side of things.

    I found many guys on game forums discussing career goals and I feel like most of them follows business/ money focused paths.”

    So, are you trying to..subdue hypergamy with earnings?

    Piece of advice for you, try to find a happy medium between doing what you like/love to do, and doing that which earns the most cash. I’m speaking long term. I consider myself an ” artist ” of sorts, yet I do not do it for earning potential at all. I do it for myself because I love/enjoy it. I have a job for earnings. I do not have my job for ” status ” because I don’t look to others to validate me or assign worth. Some people are impressed with what I do for a living, but that means NOTHING to me. I work to earn dough to do what I need to do. I create and express myself in art for me.

    ” Now there is this old dilemma of writer/publisher, director/producer, scientist/seller. At least where I live, the side dealing with money lives much better than one making it. I am at the beginning of my journey and have been successful in both roles. My red pill side is advising me to get status and money while my old blue pill idealism just wants me to do what I like. ”

    Keep money and status in perspective at all times. That way you won’t be ruined or destroyed by lack of either, mentally. Strive for as much balance as you can attain. Yin and Yang. Do things in life for yourself without concentrating on what others have. Money doesn’t solve all problems in life. I’ve known a few wealthy people that have killed themselves and were absolutely miserable. I know, I know, everyone thanks that they’d be different, and there is validity to that up to a point, but if your mindset is off, money can’t always fix that and may just expand the problems of life or create more, horrible new problems.

    ” From my experience the girls are more interested if I say I am heading towards higher status career than towards intellectual achievement so I have a hard time optimizing my choices.”

    Ahhhhh. Yes. Let’s avert a huge fuck up before it happens. It is not important what girls are interested in. Not at all. Feel better? Lol. Don’t strive to impress women, EVER. This is a loosing trip down tragedy road my friend. Study Red Pill concepts/truths and you will come to an ultimate conclusion that ” status ” is subjective and fluid in the eyes of females for a huge chunk of their lives. Imo it is better to concentrate on and build masculinity instead, if you’d like help in attracting women.

    Never explicate…etc.

    You’re exhibiting a level of Blue Pill Idealism. It’s okay, we’re here to try and help.

    http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/01/the-myth-of-the-good-guy/

    http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/14/mental-point-of-origin/

  55. @Blaximus

    …Money doesn’t solve all problems in life. I’ve known a few wealthy people that have killed themselves and were absolutely miserable. I know, I know, everyone thanks that they’d be different, and there is validity to that up to a point, but if your mindset is off, money can’t always fix that and may just expand the problems of life or create more, horrible new problems.

    Speaking of this, the recent powerball lotto jackpot in the U.S. brought to mind a realization for myself. The realization was that winning such a lottery would probably be the most unhealthful thing that could possibly happen to me at this point in my life. In thinking about this, it also dawned on me that a man who has proper balance would never be destroyed by sudden wealth such as lottery winnings, but would also *never* chase such things.

  56. “no battle plan survives contact with the enemy”

    this is true in all cases save one. the battle of the sexes.

    if a young man reads old CH, Rollo and Ya, he will know every move his female opponent will ever make and will preempt her with confident ease.

    driving men to the red pill with open hypergamy was a major tactical error. one from which women will never recover.

    if you must fall in love, fall in love with game.

    game and lifting are the same. in both places we push to failure in order to grow. lift as heavy as you can and run game on the absolute hottest girls you can.

    negging a gorgeous hottie is the same as putting weight on the bar you’re a little scared to lift without a spot. there’s only one way to find out what will happen and that’s to try.

  57. @Jeremy,

    Lol… I pondered this also. A billion dollars. I have a love/hate relationship with fiat currency.

    I told the wife that I wouldn’t alert the lottery folks, if I won, for 2 or 3 weeks. She was puzzled, but I understand that a giant target would be placed on you, especially in the immediate aftermath.

    I played in the hopes that I had a chance at one of the lesser prizes, like a million or so. That’s much more manageable and reasonable.

    But in reality, would I ” want ” a billion dollars? I think not. Even giving a large portion away would come with giant problems and risk.

    I’m naturally weary of excess and overkill. Cocaine taught me that ( another story….or dozen stories..).

    … did I just say ” cocaine ” on TRM????

  58. @Distortion: The only thing I can add to the advice you’ve already been given is that . . . I have nothing to add to the advice you’ve been given. It’s good, solid stuff.

    @Jeremy: Once every year or four I’ll scoop up a buck’s worth of change from under the sofa cushions and by a lottery ticket. If I lose, I’ve only lost change I’ve already given up as lost. If I win; holy fuck would that fuck up my life.

    My lawyer and accountant would have to put in a good deal of work before I even thought of turning it in.

  59. @Rollo

    “For as much as I’ve detailed mens’ burden of performance, there is still a set of men who get offended by it because they think that performance is exclusively for the approval of women.

    It’s not. That burden, prerequisite or privilege if you like is about the merit and character of the man. Women’s attraction/arousal may be a byproduct of that performance, but men do not have the option to opt out of how it reflects on him.

    Even when you cop the mindset of “well, I don’t care what anyone thinks of me” that itself is an article of performance. Women have the option to opt out and still be well thought of, men do not.”

    if this was pointed at me, i appreciate the consideration…but having thought about this, i think my issues are different (or at least the quality seems different…)…or maybe i’m just full of shit…and deluding myself…lol…but it seems less about rejecting the idea of burden of performance bc of the ‘approval of women’ (although my wife will be REALLY happy when i get this sorted…lol)… it seems more like not wanting to ‘revert’, if that makes any sense…but, i do know i need to get a handle on this…just for my own sanity…lol…and bc i can see the hole it’s leaving in my life…

    i think what is hard for me is that when i flipped into red pill reality (and i was in panic mode to save my marriage…so, i flipped hard…lol) everything about ‘girls’ made sense (my in-field experiences were validating…and accurate…) and was the opposite of blue pill world, so i basically just inverted the whole blue pill reality set…lol…it was like going from bizarro world into ‘the opposite of bizarro world’…lol…(but not quite ‘reality’ bc of the rest of society being the way it is…) and seeing behind the veil is still like that…

    so, it’s hard to let go of that red pill ‘reality’/expectations and adopt what essentially feels like blue pill ideology…and intellectually i can accept that a burden of performance (even if from a blue pill beta perspective) can be countered with some alpha asshole…lol…or maybe i can’t and that’s where i’m stuck…

    it’s almost like the inverse of Divided Line…not wanting to let go of that comforting blue pill…but from the other side…

    i think it has something to do with this:

    “That burden, prerequisite or privilege if you like is about the merit and character of the man.”

    maybe i’m still plugged in on some of this stuff…the FI is a cunning foe…lol…

    it almost feels like some kind of shaming component is in play (like meeting my burden of performance but doing so NOT for the purpose of getting the approval of women, but for the purpose of ‘proving up on my character as a man’ is just ‘wrong’)…

    and maybe i’m just too close to the issue to see it…i’m not really sure right now…

    but i’ll work through it… it’ll just take some time and effort…

    good luck to me!…lol…

  60. “it almost feels like some kind of shaming component is in play (like meeting my burden of performance but doing so NOT for the purpose of getting the approval of women, but for the purpose of ‘proving up on my character as a man’ is just ‘wrong’)…”

    Open up your eyes, and your ears, and your nose, and you will find that the sight, noise and smell of that shaming is pervasive in your environment.

  61. @Question, Roosh also made it very clear that no homosexuals would be part of Neomasculinity and less than 2 months later he’s having dinner with Milo Yianoppoulos in London on his first World Tour stop because he knows Milo will give him a write up in Brietbart.

    I called him out on his bullshit with Dr. Oz and his crying foul about being “ambushed” by Dr, Oz when he’d written a post titled “Dr. Oz is a Pussy” only a year before. He knew his image would be marred by that appearance so his first video after it was one of “I didn’t know I would be ambushed like this”. He knew damn well he’d be pilloried, but the opportunity to turn a buck and some insta-fame on a B-grade TV show was a fair exchange for playing the foil.

    Then he systematically disavowed the entirety of the manosphere by going sphere by sphere and coming up with any bullshit he could to discredit PUAs, MRAs, TRP, MGTOW and anyone else who wouldn’t get behind him and Quintius Curtius (the dungeon master) in Neomasculinity.

    Again I called his bullshit for what it was, a rebranding of himself because his old PUA persona was running out of material. That and his wholesale nonsense about rejecting not just evo-psych, but any evolutionary theory. So I called his bluff on that and he blocked me on Twitter and banned me on RVF, RoK and his own blog, within 10 minutes of my just questioning him.

    His whole battle for Toronto was a staged publicity stunt. He actively agitated femosphere communities to get the whole fervor up because he knew Toronto was a bed of SJW feminists who’d hate him. So his story was how he was crusading for ‘free speech’ yet the guy has always blocked or banned anyone who will take him to task on his ideas.

    Now he’s coming to terms with MRAs by doing interviews with Karen Straughn and Paul Elam. His marketeering isn’t going quite as planned so he needs allies.

  62. ” In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women.”

    And here is crux of it. Men being idealistic is not the problem; however, an imperative has pervaded our idealism for it’s utility.
    Thing is, the urge to take advantage of our utility I not some mistake, but, stems from a certain mechanism, a mechanism which, under current conditions is experiencing a positive feedback, it’s out of control.
    Our brother, like most of us before RP, wants a place for his noble idealism…what he doesn’t seem to want accept is that this idealism must subsist within a reality and should be applied appropriately.
    Women are a certain way, this what the RP has reminded us…we should not to change them…but as men we have to seek our own path, our own fulfillment, our goals, in such a way that makes them fit into our reality, while still remembering that she has a program hardwired into her OS that will make her seek certain things under certain conditions, conditions that sometimes arise due to us being complacent, forgetting that being a man comes with “responsibility”…with great power, the saying goes….

    As an aside I remember thinking to myself, in my late teens, that – men are the same, but are different….Women are different but they’re the same….

    Hmmm…

  63. @Distortion – A few thoughts come to mind, in no particular order.

    The art vs. money thing is a cliche and an ego buffer. As a writer and singer/songwriter I’ve had to find the right place for these things in my life. One can balance these tradeoffs many ways, but the key is to understand these decisions are tradeoffs and you shouldn’t be thinking in absolutes.

    I have friends who pursue art as a hobby – singing in a choir, painting and displaying at local galleries. doing photography projects. Me – I won’t do paying musical gigs, I either play for non-profits or for fun/friends/family.

    I know other people who are content to be working musicians and artists who have to find a way to make it pay. They work in recording studios, gig, do weddings and also try to build a web following etc. This is more doable than ever. I have a friend who is a very talented painter – to pay the bills she does super high end “decorative painting” for the rich and famous on Park ave and out in the Hamptons. She can paint a wall to look like it’s rough hewn logs or tapestry from 6 ft away. Others go into graphic design or other aspects of commercial endeavors that blend both. I believe Rollo has done just this, blending his creative talents and business. My point? These are all practical people who do their art but also figure out how to pay the bills or even become financially successful. Fyi, don’t listen to people who tell you “money doesn’t matter’ – they are usually poor or broke. Financial success and security are very good things and not to be scoffed at.

    Then there are the suffering/under appreciated, wannabe renaissance men or women. Fyi, these artists are no more talented than the other folks I’ve mentioned, rather they are the impractical ones who don’t know how to make tradeoffs. Usually they are lazy, and are the kind of people who get “writers block” etc. Or take a year on a project that could be done in 4 months. They whine about how “the system” and about the corporate types control things (you know, the people who actually put up the money to pay for their art). They complain about bad luck etc. These people use their “talent” as an excuse to be irresponsible and to bolster their fragile egos. They are not nice people to be around either.

    Of course, then there are the truly super talented and committed artists for whom the question of whether to pursue their art is not a choice. They either do well or become heroine addicts, and if they escape that, they end up as bitter bartenders in New York city.

    In any case, this is about owning your ambitions and life. Any one of the guys I’ve described can get laid using proper game. My advice? I have none – only you can answer this question for yourself. However, I do suggest that you engage here to take the journey towards making yourself your own point of mental origin. Only then can you see your own path.

  64. I actually have far more respect for Karen Straughan than I do for Paul or Roosh. As hilarious as it is to say, I think Karen understands masculinity and the burdens inherent to it better than Paul by far, and likely better than Roosh.

  65. @kfg

    “Open up your eyes, and your ears, and your nose, and you will find that the sight, noise and smell of that shaming is pervasive in your environment.”

    but…but…she’s not LIKE that…she’s different!…lol…

    i get it…i’m just having trouble applying it to my own life…it’s my cultural scotoma…but i’ll work through it…it just takes effort and time…

    and getting outside my comfort zone…

    1. In the interests of full disclosure then lets also point out that Roosh:

      1. Eagerly jumped at the chance to be pilloried on the Dr. Oz SHow after having written a post entitled “Dr. Oz is a Pussy” on RoK just a year prior. After which his play was to excuse his ridiculed performance as having been “ambushed” by Oz.

      2. Welcomed a BBC documentary team to his London stop of his tour knowing full well they were doing a hit piece on MRAs and the manosphere proper. Furthermore, he allowed them to interview the attendees at risk to their privacy and potentially their livelihoods without prior warning.

      3. Hired a ‘hostess’ for that event who it turns out was a well known feminist blogger working for the HuffPo among many other news sites. It took all of 3 minutes to source her name and background, but apparently this hadn’t occurred to Roosh.

      4. Claimed the meeting site in Montreal had been leaked by “only 2 people” who could’ve known – excluding the possibility that Roosh himself ‘leaked’ the location to the protesters he knew would challenge him there.

      5. Professed a willingness to go to jail well before he even entered Canada.

      6. Has concerned himself more with the fervor and protests that he stoked than the content of a speech intended for 40 men, ostensibly to inform them about the State of Men.

      7. Has concerned himself with his own notoriety at the expense of his attendee’s identity, privacy and potentially their employment at any opportunity.

  66. @ Rollo Tomassi

    I thought it was strange that he allowed the BBC to attend one of his speeches. What if someone at BBC leaks the unedited footage out to the Internet and destroys these men’s lives?

    Just to clarify, I report at a local level, not national. My interest in this rift is solely in finding out what’s what when it comes to the manosphere. My experience reporting has just taught me to be suspicious of everything I read, ironically enough.

  67. I don’t even disagree with 90% of the Neomasculine articles of faith. What I disagree with is Roosh’s reasons for creating his own little AOL in the manosphere while shitting on everyone else.

    His take on evolution is ludicrous and borders on evangelical. And then there’s this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK2UMK9ohpo

    Here we are almost a year later and it’s become glaringly evident he made all this ruckus in order to rebrand himself as some kind of anti-SJW pundit. Neomasculinity is just a vehicle for him to generate revenue. He admitted to Karen he can’t get a job anywhere now, so what’s he going to do? He has no choice but to go all in on his own version of the Red Pill.

  68. @Jeremy – Finally, something we can agree on economically/politically. Indeed, our financialized economy has so distorted the system, and dejected people are looking for heroes. It’s not just the internet which makes personal brands so attractive to people, it’s also the desperation of the populace. I launch my own brand on a larger scale late this year (working on the book etc. now). It’s in my domain of tech/startups/sales and the cult of personality thing is just so big in business now. Social signaling too, as after all, how does one succeed in a financialized economy? By who you know, not what you know. Fame and celebrity has leeched into the corporate culture in profound ways and today, tech is more like Hollywood gas always been, or Wall St. 20 years ago.

    I used to get very angry about this, now I’m going to use my mind to extract cash from the fucking sheep.

  69. “The main key to note is watch Julien and look at his subcomms…he’s not being “malicious”, he’s self-amusing with zero outcome dependence.”

    “All that matters is how internally confident you are and how does that reflect in your subcomms.”

    This is my failure, my internal state of mind is that I’m a fraud, by projecting a IDGF attitude I hide my inadequacies. The more I delved into my past the more I realised the presence of heavy shaming in my past.

    Interestingly my research into sports psychology inadvertently lead to something known as Affect Theory and the role ‘shame/humiliation’ has on altering behaviour. This is particularly prevalent in boys as shaming is the primary method of control used to ‘correct’ boys behaviours.

    Essentially Affects Theory stipulates that cognitive function is preceded by emotive affects (different from feelings which are subsequently derived from old schemas).

    Positive affects like enjoyment/joy and interest/excitement can be driven away by negative affects, with shame/humiliation being the primary negative of positive states. Once in a shame/humiliation state (Affect) it is very difficult to switch back to a positive state.

    The more I look at YaReally’s posts the more I realise it works on a deeper psychological level, game is effectively creating positive Affects in others and switching states to enhance the Affect (behaviourslists demonstrate that random rewards illicit more addictive responses).

    It seems like the key to an abundance world view is overcoming old conditioned responses grounded in shame/humiliation.

    It’s interesting just to observe the level of shame men are exposed to on a daily basis, Religion, News, media, education, family, women etc.

  70. @Culum Struan @jorxster

    Oh I can move and already plan on it. My plan was continue working where I am at now for another year or so. I am trying to get a job in a field that is universal — you can work literally anywhere in the world with that kind of job. Thing is its tricky to get the job as most employers want you to be certified (which I am not), however I do have experience in my current job, which is VERY similar to the one I want to get. After 6mo-1yr working at a new job, I can pretty easily up and move to the state I want to.

    Problem is I have been stuck in this same area for something like 15 years, and a lot of that I was pretty much alone and I never dated anyone. So the years are really wearing away at me.

    That’s why I was asking if anyone knew of something like a program where, say, you work abroad for 3 months. You don’t get paid much, or anything at all, but your food and board is taken care of. It’d just be a way to get a breath of fresh air, and if I really liked it there I’m sure I could find a way to stay. I just don’t know of anything remotely like that so that’s why I was asking.

    @Culum Struan

    No buffer here. I talk to 30%-50% of people I come across. I use jester method to get on great terms with people all the time. I talk to 100% of girls I am attracted to since they are so rare, even if I don’t have anything good to say or am out of state.

    Last night I talked to a waitress about when was a good time to get free leftover food at the end of the day since I got some the last time I was there. It was a boring conversation that went nowhere. And I KNEW it would be, since I wasn’t yet in state. But I did it anyway.

    I’ll put it this way. My type is asians and latinas. I sometimes like blacks and whites, but usualy only when they are mixed. The only kind of girl I have never been attracted to is this one specific type of white girl (its a regional thing, so I am not going to say online). That specific type of white girl is something like 80%-90% of the girls where I live.

    So that japanese/indian girl is very much a rarity. First one I have seen here in 15 years. So its not like the area is crawling with them. They are as rare here as they are where you live.

    When I move to the house right next to the downtown university, it will make things a bit easier. But there still won’t be many girls I like there — hence why I had that epiphany about just up and moving right away, rather than wait a year or more.

    @kfg

    Imagine you are stuck in prision. Pretty much any place would be better than being stuck in prison. But that doesn’t mean that anyplace that’s not a prison is automatically paradise.

    I want to leave not because I think there is some magical candy mountain out there somewhere, but because I know that the area I am in now is sorely lacking in the things that make me happy. A new place will have the same bullshit that I deal with here, but more of the things I do like. If you love the beach, living in a shitty house at the beach is much better than living in a shitty house in the desert. If you love white girls, living in a place that’s 80% white girls is much better than living in a place that’s 80% black girls.

  71. @Hank: “A new place will have the same bullshit that I deal with here, but more of the things I do like.”

    And more of the things you don’t like. The inland desert doesn’t get hit by a lot of hurricanes and tidal waves.

    But now that you’ve clarified, your head seems screwed on at least reasonably straight.

  72. Positive affects like enjoyment/joy and interest/excitement can be driven away by negative affects, with shame/humiliation being the primary negative of positive states. Once in a shame/humiliation state (Affect) it is very difficult to switch back to a positive state.

    This says something very interesting about blue pill men who have run into the wall of a dead bedroom. Given the way the amygdala seems to work, I daresay that it would not take too many humiliating nuclear rejections by a “trustworthy” woman in an LTR / marriage to create that affect. Such men would find themselves asking for Cialis or VIagra because getting it up with their LTR / wives was more difficult – yet likely if presented with a different woman even of equal hotness, or porn, they’d be “all systems go”!

    Garsh, how could that be? Sure, New Relationship Energy, and
    yeah, Coolidge effect, sure, but also neuroplasticity at work. Because the humiliation state wouldn’t be so likely to fire with a different woman.

    Therefore there’s a good, science based reason for dealing with nuclear rejection via a hard “NEXT”, although some men won’t have that option in their marriages to be sure. I’d speculate those men would have to do visualization and mental role playing to redirect that humiliation state, not to mention developing a serious red-pill mindset.

    And by the way, I just plugged Biology of Desire to another person face to face today. Neuroplasticity is real, and it’s being used in a lot of ways to help people overcome problems.

  73. @Jeremy

    Maybe I’m fucked in the head, but more and more lately when I’m pissed somebody’s making money off something, part of it’s that I’m just jealous they’re making easy cash. The result is less anger and more willingness to look for similarly stupid/easy revenue streams for myself.

  74. I have no issue with people making money. IDGAF if they make millions, if that’s what’s important to them. It’s like people masturbating 24/7, it’s none of my business.

    What I do have an issue with, is an economy that is so shitty, that people are forced to adapt a thief’s mentality. Get mine however. I have a lot of experience with people with that particular mindset.

    I also have a problem when people become money hungry. If they are thinking money will fill some kinda hole in their existence, well, that’s their problem. When their money crazed lust starts to effect me personally, then I get pissed too. When greedy, stupid motherfuckers steal people’s life savings under the guise of ” business “, they need to have a ballectomy performed on them a.s.a.p. When a bunch of retarded bankers and hedge fund assholes wreck the economy, and they don’t get their just punishment, then I have a problem. When hordes of people just accept their long term ass reaming with nary a peep, then I get pissed.

    I work with a lot of ” entrepreneurs “. They’re all gonna be the next fucking millionaire selling t-shirts out of their garage, or the tired ass real estate cash cow meme. I call one of the Neptune because all 8 of his rental properties are 20,000 leagues under the sea, they are so far under water.

    Sore spot for me. Vented.

    Carry on.

  75. Roosh should call his stuff “Reactionary Red Pill”. Anti-homosexual, anti-evolution, pro “race-realism” = racist, pro-theism and incredibly misogynist – yes, his sites are filled with raging hatred against women. He’s bitten off far more than he can chew.

    He also doesn’t seem to understand how movements and ideas grow and evolve. First off, he did not invent the idea of Alpha males or Beta Males. But perhaps he was the first PUA to begin talking about it more globally. He also wasn’t the first PUA. He may have coined the term “Red Pill” but even then, that’s an idea ripped off from The Matrix and it was being used widely in the culture before he appropriated it. I heard it used in a self-help program I was involved in that the writers of The Matrix attended which inspired them to make the film. It was Landmark Education’s Advanced Course, fyi.

    Give him credit for whatever he started, fair enough – but he never “owned” it. He wasn’t a “father”, he’s just some guy who shared ideas and thoughts and promoted them. He also clearly got a big head and thought he could weigh in on politics and economics and history – an he’s truly vapid on these things. When I first encountered him, I liked some of what he has to say, but when I encountered the racist crap and his other silly political and economic ideas I laughed. Truly, he’s a dingbat on these topics.

    His reach exceeds his grasp. And then I go to Return of Kings and I see his flying monkey brigade slobbering over a story of a drunk 21 year old girl who ran out of a party in shorts and a tank top, angry and out of control, in -6 degree weather and due to being so drunk apparently fell down or passed out, and then died of exposure. The feral peasants there are tearing her to shreds claiming they are glad she died and calling her a cunt. Because she was troubled. She somehow represents all women and their issues.

    That’s who his audience is. Another article is about an American woman killed by a Senagalese immigrant in Italy after having sex with him, cheating on her boyfriend. Same flying monkey brigade talking about what a slut she was etc and the article goes on and on about how she had it coming because she took drugs and was out and about at night. They never mention which drugs,, interestingly. But the focus is because she fucked a black guy for sure.

    Bottom feeding scum. Racists. Hate-filled madmen who relish in the deaths of women. Those are the men for whom he’s a father. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

    And oh yeah, don’t think I don’t realize there are a lot of “alt right race realists” here, but at least you know to keep your inane ideas to yourselves.

  76. Roosh also promotes “Kratom” on his sites, a naturally occurring stimulant and mood enhancer. Here’s a little snipped on Kratom

    “Long-term use of kratom produced anorexia, weight loss, insomnia, skin darkening, dry mouth, frequent urination, and constipation. A withdrawal syndrome was observed, consisting of symptoms of hostility, aggression, emotional lability, wet nose, achy muscles and bones, and jerky movement of the limbs. Furthermore, several cases of kratom psychosis were observed, where kratom addicts exhibited psychotic symptoms that included hallucinations, delusion and confusion.”

    No, he’s not a crank…here’s the link where ROK raves about Kratom, of course with an affiliate link at the bottom of the page.
    http://www.returnofkings.com/77684/how-kratom-can-make-2016-your-best-year-yet

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