A Teachable Moment

Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“In the west however, women collectively are failing their burden of performance by not replacing the population at a growth or sustainable level.” If the current population were cut in half (US or world) it would still be greater than it was when I was born and I would still not notice a particular shortage of people. We were able to fight WWII with less than half the people we have now. We were able to fight WW1 with less than 1/5th the people we have now. We were able to fight the first global war (the ages of exploration… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago

I actually am starting to think that women’s “option” to perform should no longer be protected by society or by law. I look at it like this.. If I have an unshakable burden of performance, and my performance is how I will be judged… then why should my performance *ever* be judged against someone with an option not to perform? This is like mixing financially compelled workers (indentured servants) and volunteers in the same workforce, punishing those who are compelled to work when they don’t meet standards, ignoring the volunteers when they don’t meet standards… yet rewarding both of them… Read more »

ChocDoc
ChocDoc
5 years ago

@ Andy

“As with dogs, who if they cannot identify the pack leader, willl try to lead the pack – a woman who can’t feel that a man is leading her, will try to lead. ”

Agreed. They’re totally like dogs. lol. Hilarious and True.

“So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission?”

I do. I love that shit. Embrace your masculinity. ”

Lol….very nice Andy

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Rollo: “Women have an option of performance, and they will literally restructure the laws and narrative of a society to maintain their prerogative for it. If they choose to perform, great, but they reserve the option to not perform and still be held to the same standard.” Divided Line: “I’m trying to let women off the hook so that I can stop feeling such overwhelming contempt for them.” You might want to let women off the hook collectively at the moment. Otherwise it might make you think too much instead of just doing. Or write five paragraphs (as is your… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

You give Elam far too much credit. He actually hasn’t thought it through at all because, sadly, for all his posturing he doesn’t really care about male sexual agency. He’s never digested fully and accepted male sexual desire as legitimate and not something to be controlled and suppressed by the FI.

Hence, it never occurs to him that a fully realized man will want to have women sexually available to him regularly and on terms he’s okay with.

He’s an “equalist” and a very superficial one at that, topped off with a shitload of anti-feminism

kfg
kfg
5 years ago
Reply to  scribblerg

He doesn’t think things through, because at root he’s a Machiavellian self-promoter. His eyes tend to look whichever way the wind is blowing.

Jeremy
5 years ago
Reply to  scribblerg

Thank you for saying that Scribbler. Honestly, I think the manosphere is far to nice to Elam. The man is a non-zero level egoist, and completely blind to the base evil he is subscribing to.

GW
GW
5 years ago

@DL “So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission? It seems as if we do, but it doesn’t seem to be as dominant a feature of male sexual desire as fetishizing admiration is for women. Am I wrong about this? Women clearly care about dominance, but it doesn’t seem like men care as much about submissiveness. The puzzle pieces don’t seem to fit together as neatly as one would like.” Say what? Since I have gone red pill, I have thrived on sexualizing her submission. As I said in my first comment here about 2 months ago (passive reader/student… Read more »

Divided Line
5 years ago
Reply to  GW

Yeah, but it’s not as if it’s a reverse hypergamy or something. It’s not like men are blowing up their marriages, relationships, and families because women aren’t submissive enough. It doesn’t seem to have the same widespread and consistent social repercussions as women chasing dominant men does.

The Question
5 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi “Women have an option of performance, and they will literally restructure the laws and narrative of a society to maintain their prerogative for it. If they choose to perform, great, but they reserve the option to not perform and still be held to the same standard.” I realized this consciously when the whole “man up” movement was really picking up steam. It occurred to me: “Woman up” has no meaning. So what do we say to a woman who doesn’t live up to her responsibilities? It is like calling a woman a coward; there is no stigma… Read more »

Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
5 years ago

@LostITP: To answer your question about the lack of sexy sons these days, I refer the honorable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago (5:33 pm on 1/18): “What we all need to remember is that the Blue Pill is a hivemind-spread cultural idea that spread airborne like Ebola in the mid-to-late 70’s and continues now: be a sensitive new age guy (SNAG), show your feminine side, show you’re nice and not like those awful sexist MCP’s and Someday You Will Be Loved. Maybe it was a reaction to Free Love and the soulless Swinging 70’s, maybe it… Read more »

GW
GW
5 years ago

@Rollo, You really can’t say that enough (I have read much of what you have written, here and elsewhere, and I am still trying to get the firmware fully engaged with it. There are several things at play here, including: 1. Women can be gamed into the behavior you want (in the short run), which signals falsely to men that they can be pretenders forever. While the “fake it till you make it” can ultimately prevail, it will because one actually makes the changes to “make it” after tasting success, but because simply faking it will be sustainable. 2. Since… Read more »

GW
GW
5 years ago

Wish I could edit comments…lazy writer I guess. Missed close paren and last sentence should have “…, NOT because faking it will be sustainable.”

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Arab culture, where polygyny by the ruling class was the rule milennia before Islam, and the only hope of sexual congress for many such men was/is the afterlife.”

You don’t see a lot of men from the House of Saud strapping on suicide vests.

Jeremy
5 years ago

GW, here you are not sheltered from your burden of comment quality.

The Question
5 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi Yes, I think that is the hard thing for a lot of current crop of MGTOWs to get (not the Rob Fedders version). They’re not just expected to perform for the sake of women or sex. Men have expectations of each other, that they be productive and useful. Even if you’re not trying to get a girl, that doesn’t mean you are freed from all expectations and can just sit around and do nothing. It’s why even outside of intergender relations, a man calling another man “useless” or “worthless” is an insult and has attached social stigma.… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

So far not a fan of what I think will end up happening: now instead of just skipping to the last few comments to see what’s been posted, if a comment section is like 8 pages long that means scrolling through every comment for 8 pages to see if there’s a new comment attached to it. I think people will miss entire conversations they didn’t realize were happening on page 4 while they’re having one on page 6 before they also jump to page 8 to see what new comments are there only to see someone say “check what I… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

The solution, to my mind, is an infinitely-wide space in which to nest. People generally have wider monitors now, no reason to restrict the width of a web page to my mind.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

That is my general preference, but it only works correctly if the thread scrolls. Broken up into pages it’s going to be a navigational nightmare.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

One delicious irony I heard in the Roosh/Elam talk was about how Paul was giving advice to men about how to vet for “quality women” and how best to avoid divorce rape by doing so wisely. I have said this before, frankly I expect Voice for Men to go the same way as the Good Man Project (which is more properly referred to as the Good Mangina Project). That means at some point, Elam will no longer be in charge, the women will see to that. No doubt at all he’ll be shocked and astounded when that happens. Perhaps that… Read more »

J1J2
J1J2
5 years ago

Women these days (in these places) have two main problems. In no particular order. In no particular order… 1) Their human desire to be high-status is in conflict with their female desire to have men who are more high-status. They are indeed like dogs: obsessed over dominance, hyper-aware of body-language indicating dominance (or lack of dominance), comfortable and happy being dominated, somewhat interested in gaining dominance, but disoriented and unhappy if they achieve it. Women and dogs are as they are because that is what evolution has made them, and there is no point in getting righteous about it. 2)… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

“So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarPDGPROMY Watch the clip all the way through if you’re still holding onto Blue Pill beliefs. Everything the girls are doing in this clip makes perfect sense when you understand women, that’s why Julien’s turned it into a routine he can explain to a crowd…because it’s that predictable when you understand chick brains and have fully swallowed the Red Pill. These same girls will be at the office on Monday and the guy in the cubicle beside them… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

@Rollo Tommassi
“Women have an option of performance, and they will literally restructure the laws and narrative of a society to maintain their prerogative for it.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hNMZGSzB7EI

Casanova know better
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/pdf/4363.pdf

“but men do not have the option to opt out of how it reflects on him.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-mcUPY0RMdU

kfg
kfg
5 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

“I ignore self-surveys . . .”

Self-surveys measure what people will admit to in self-surveys.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“I realized this consciously when the whole “man up” movement was really picking up steam. It occurred to me: “Woman up” has no meaning. So what do we say to a woman who doesn’t live up to her responsibilities?” You don’t say anything to her. Law #9 Win through your Actions, Never through Argument Any momentary triumph you think gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory: The resentment and ill will you stir up is stronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion. It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

Holy shit a Like button lol I can’t even process this…DELICIOUS VALIDATION!!!

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

how come I don’t have a like button?…i have validation issues, too, you know…lol

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

@Rollo: Thanks for taking Divided Line’s question into an expanded explanation. The first part of his comment and your answer, in turn, answered my question about self as the mental point of origin.
.
I’m thinking BP idealism is protean and must be bound by RP ropes. When the beast is stayed it vanishes as there was nothing there to begin with — there is nothing but self. That is the origin.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

What the Fuck Rollo?

A masculine forum with a like button and not a dislike button is the beginning of the end of masculine discourse. Where’s the dislike button?

Oh, let me guess that wouldn’t be Politically Femininely Zuckerbergie Correct?

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Culum “now we just need Sentient here ” i think he’ll be along (eventually), but i think he hates the non-nested format as much as i do…lol… “Not sure why the stack is so hard on you…” N…S…A… lol… do i sound like CO, yet?…lol re scott adams…i’ll take a look…thanks…(i think i went there once from a Vox post, but never stayed to digest it…) “He had a post a while back about how to beat ISIS etc (it had to do with reframing their fight away from being a heroic struggle to convincing the grunt footsoldiers that their… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“DELICIOUS VALIDATION!!!”

Maybe I’ve been hanging out virtually with Scribbler too much off-line, but I fancy being the devils advocate and being de-validated in a Socratic way (inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas).

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@kfg “Right. War Brides. Women whose chief misfortune was that the invading alphas they hooked up with were displaced by a second wave of invading alphas while they were still alive.” yep, that’s what i thought (thanks for the photo)…but those invading ‘alphas’ weren’t really…bc they would have just taken those war brides for themselves (and not allowed the shaming to occur)…these girls are being shamed by the ‘non-war brides’/butthurt betas… shaming is shaming = FI in play (resource protection)…i get the same thing (on a different level) when i hit on some college girl in front of an ‘age… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

But now how will I determine my self-worth??

Jeremy
5 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

Through your Star Trek trivia knowledge, duh.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago
Reply to  YaReally

@Rollo YaReally

[dancing around, raises hands in the air Rocky style…]

Whoo Hooo!…

lol…

ya know, i was just starting to get used to the non-nested format…lol…

(just kidding…lol)

seriously though, i appreciate the change, but i really would have adjusted…lol…

good luck!

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“…these girls are being shamed by the ‘non-war brides’/butthurt betas…”

I almost added that to my last comment, but considered it too self-evident to bother. Usually when I do that I’m wrong. This time I appear to have been at least close enough.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Addendum: “…i get the same thing (on a different level) when i hit on some college girl in front of an ‘age appropriate’ (lol) ‘strong, independent, woman’…”

When I was in my mid thirties I was walking down the street with my teenage fiancé and some upper middle class old bat in clown make up driving by slowed down, rolled down her window and hurled shame . . . at her.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Rollo

“He thinks only ‘low quality’ women are Hypergamous and it’s a personal character flaw rather than part of her wiring. Only ‘high quality’ women have the self-control to turn off their Hypergamy and behave well for men such as himself.”

= NAWALT…lol…

you know, it’s really nice being able to have my comments pop out as soon as i post…thanks!

good luck!

Jeremy
5 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Probably a good idea. The top links are getting crowded in my browsers.

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

“These same girls will be at the office on Monday and the guy in the cubicle beside them with a crush on them will be txting his buddy “dude I talked to Janice for 10 whole minutes at lunch!! She told me she doesn’t like bars and just stayed in to read by the fireplace this weekend. I think she might let me take her out on a date sometime, do you think this fancy restaraunt is good enough?? I better hit the gym first and wear my finest fitted suit…I hope she likes my expensive condo and lets me… Read more »

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

@Rollo: the reply feature will help. I like it. Thanks.

LeeLee
5 years ago

@Jeremy: That’s powerful. Especially the parallel between nagging/manipulative women and a man who takes all of a woman’s fertile years and never impregnates her. @Scribblerg: You always give me the warm fuzzies. Thank you! Part of it is that outside of my contact with the world via the internet, I live my life entirely within a Christian context that emphasizes self-knowledge, growth, and personal responsibility. Undoubtedly it has a lot to do with who my husband is though and the fact that I look up to him so much. Submitting to a man of integrity IS delicious. Also, I do… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago

Watching those videos… am I correct in my interpretation of the “girl brain” that the reason these women accept all of that and keep coming back for more is that what is said (by him) matters far less than the fact that they’re getting attention from someone they’ve already decided is high enough value?

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

Jeremy – it’s worth watching Julien’s PIMP on this (plus some of YaReally’s explanations in his archive). Basically, the girls actively ENJOY the fact that he’s giving them emotions even if they are negative emotions. It’s not something they “put up” with because they like him – they like him BECAUSE he gives them emotions.

That said you need to have *some* value and attraction to them to be able to say stuff like that without coming across as insulting – it depends on the frame and subcomms with which you say it.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

Wait I had a Like button just now! And nested comments! Where did they go??

Rollo – if you’re playing around with the site right now one big thing that would be useful is the option to see ALL comments at once instead of paging through 8 pages of comments to get to the latest ones..

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Nice to see more real PUAs coming on the site. I’m loving all the detailed discussions of how men can actually get what they want versus the tedious pseudo-science and intellectual preening. Perhaps CH’s downfall is our benefit? @Ya – I will cease-fire on MGTOW for the time being in the interest of comity. If we don’t devolve into endless parsing and BroScience analysis that all end up in women being useless and evil, and how awful it is for men in this world, I’ll keep it up. But if not… Fyi, love the Julien vid up top. As I… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

damn!…that was fun!…nothing like being in the middle of an admin crisis…lol…

i still need that validation button…lol…

Jeremy
5 years ago

@kfg

When I was in my mid thirties I was walking down the street with my teenage fiancé and some upper middle class old bat in clown make up driving by slowed down, rolled down her window and hurled shame . . . at her.

Why is the world of available video cameras failing us on this? How am I supposed to cheat myself out of self-improvement by enjoying the righteous vengeance that other men are getting by doing this?

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

@Jeremy @Culum “That said you need to have *some* value and attraction to them to be able to say stuff like that without coming across as insulting – it depends on the frame and subcomms with which you say it.” Right. Julien raises his value/attraction with standard PUA DHV stuff (that doesn’t involve “be jacked and rich”) but the main key to note is watch Julien and look at his subcomms…he’s not being “malicious”, he’s self-amusing with zero outcome dependence. Everything is said with an air of joking around and even when he gets serious at points like when he… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@KFG – Had the same experience with my 23 yr old waif GF when I was 38-39. She looked even younger, could have passed for 17. I took her away (mistakenly) to an old but high end spa/resort in the Shawagunks in lower New York state, the Mohonk Mountain House for a long weekend. Great place that I’d never stayed at before but had hung out in after hiking or climbing for a snack or chilling. Turns out it was a fave hangout of a white shoe, country club type, middle aged crowd – should have known, you can drop… Read more »

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

@Rollo demonstrating push pull 😛

Craiger247
Craiger247
5 years ago

Another great article, thank you Rollo! As to Divided Lines comments, and the article that accompanied it, well done. I appreciate DL saying what he did, he was honest/open to what he was going through, and that is how you find answers. You want someone to understand you, what you are feeling, and we do. I don’t know which commenter mentioned it, but they were spot on, that without a traumatic event, a low point, a rock bottom, I don’t think you can truly understand/accept RP. You need to have that life experience, that moment where you think you did… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Rollo YaReally

“That’s my guess at how this’ll play out lol CH’s nested comments work because there’s no multiple pages to them and a lot of them are just little one-off drive-by comments VS the multiple paragraph discussions people leave here. ”

i think that’s actually right…don’t worry about it, i’ll adjust…lol…but thanks…

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

@scribblerg “I had no idea what an ego buffer the soft-sugardaddy stuff was for me, whew.” That’s the first thing I try to shit on with older dudes. They think they’ve found the secret, just gotta be a sugardaddy to these girls, and it works enough and fits into their already established world view that they solidify it as “this is how you have to game as an old man, this is old man game”…but it’s not because it’s how attraction works, it’s because they picked the path of least resistance and didn’t want to go through the pain period… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago

I don’t mind threaded comments, so long as they’re:

1) All on one page (actually, this is my preference regardless of the format
2) Either restricted in tree-depth, or allow for infinite character-width so that the top-down scroll is not completely broken by arguments.

Failing those two, at the very least comments should allow the choice between threaded and flat-sorted-by-newest.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

@scribblerg – yeah I quit the sugar daddy stuff a couple months or so ago so in a kind of similar position to you. Some of the old CH posters have seen me post this before (lol) but since you were also in the sugar daddy thing: I spent two years actively on sugar daddy websites. I never paid any of the girls – no cash, cash equivalents or gifts. All I did was pay for their drinks (not dinner unless it was post-bang) and I paid gas/travel costs a couple of times. First year – lots of dates but… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

Nested comments are better, but if you decide not to, perhaps adjust your “recent comments” plugin to show more comments than four. I usually use those recent comments links to jump to the newest comments. I’ll scroll up to where I last stopped reading and then read the rest of the comments on that current page. Kind of clunky, but it works.

Yeah, good to see HABD here too. Get Sentient and we have a party.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I agree with ScribblerG and Jeremy about Paul Elam.

You can see the low-T in his eyes and hear it in his his words.

DFG
DFG
5 years ago

On men being the romantic sex, here’s a woman mocking men believing in love first sight:

https://dizzybuzzkill.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/your-prettiness-has-changed-me-now-love-me-back-but-please-dont-speak-ever/

Jeremy
5 years ago

Meh, low-t is no excuse for poor reasoning. Oh wait…

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Women: If silent, angelic and catalysts to mens’ personal growth. If speaking, cause of all problems, personal and global.”

Yeah. And?

Duderick Budrick
Duderick Budrick
5 years ago

@skribblerg, @nikochoski I probably should’ve been clearer that I was using the “I get pretty for you” argument as a straw man / example / hypothetical rather than as an aggravating situation from my actual life. In reality, what I do (probably because I’m a shitty listener) is just ignore and discount such an argument, and I also don’t make the opposite argument that when I put in a hard day’s work I’ve sacrificed for her. But I think there are good takeaways for me from what you’ve said: (1) if that happens, turn it into a moment of sexual… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago
Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

YaReally This is also why I ignore self-surveys and shit…would any girl EVER admit they would act like this? Of course they wouldn’t. Covert estrus plus sexual dimorphism at work. I can’t find the URL, but a study done in Canada 15 or more years ago is illuminating. Simple task: ask college women how many men they’ve had sex with, on a form. Group 1: Filling out a form with their name on it. Group 2: FIlling out a form that is promised to be anonymized. Group 3: Filling out a form while hooked up to a bogus “lie detector”… Read more »

Distortion
Distortion
5 years ago

This is my first post here so first of all thank you Rollo for everything you are doing here. This blog features one of the most important pieces of writing I have ever read. (I am not a native English speaker so possibly … Mistakes have been made.) “To have thrilling art, you need to have boring life.” I was told by one of my professors at university. He was trying to tell me how routine and order are important so you can focus on your creative work. I thought that was my path, to be amazing artist focused on… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Since suddenly comments aren’t nested anymore (my preference fwiw),

Last comment was @elitelami

“When men discovered that the earth was round not flat navigators didn’t bitch and moan about revising maps and having to design tools to accommodate the nature of the earths geography.”

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“When John Harrison invented a method for navigating east-west accurately . . .”

The approximate diameter of the Earth had already been known for 1500 years. Harrison didn’t invent the method, he invented the tool to fit the method.

Good book: http://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Time-Revised-Enlarged-Edition/dp/0674002822

Cartographers love revising maps, It puts their name on the.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

” There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.” I have many different incarnations of this saying all over my office. Hell, I would tattoo it on my back if I were into tats. That’s how essential… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Errata: Actually, he didn’t even invent the tool, he refined its precision to the level necessary to the task.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Meh, low-t is no excuse for poor reasoning. Oh wait…”

hahaha.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Blaximus: Just because you aren’t interested in war doesn’t mean that war isn’t interested in you.

I keep bringing that one up because we are at war, yet so many people seem to be disinterested in it.

cheupez
5 years ago

I honestly think this is the greatest online forum for men. Very addictive place too. I have learned a lot.

I like the straight threaded comments format (or whatever it is called; one without nesting).

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“I keep bringing that one up because we are at war, yet so many people seem to be disinterested in it.”

Paul Elam certainly seems very disinterested in “our” war, that being the one of the global Masculine Imperative (whatever that is), rather than his own small provincial battle. And he seems to mock the other battles going on in the theater of inter-sexual warfare.

Jeremy
5 years ago

Oh, I think Paul Elam does think he’s at war. The problem is he simply accepts the battlefield and rules of the war as dictated to him by his enemy. He’s like early Rome attempting to understand Hannibal’s genius. Yet unlike Rome Paul is failing to understand that he’s losing, let alone why he’s losing.

ChocDoc
ChocDoc
5 years ago

@Distortion

…..

” From my experience the girls are more interested if I say I am heading towards higher status career than towards intellectual achievement so I have a hard time optimizing my choices. ”

Sorry Distortion, but this sounds way too Blue Pill for me.
1) Nobody can give you an answer what you should do in professional life.
It’s your life and your decisions!

2) Never do things just because you assume that women might like it.
That’s BP..and not RP !!

Welcome and have fun, Distortion

The Question
5 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

I don’t understand for the life of me why Roosh banned you from his sites but is talking to Paul Elam. In his video on the Red Pill schism Roosh says that in the future there will be two groups: neomasculinity and men’s rights activists, because the latter will be full of men who can’t wait to be “divorced raped.”

What exactly does he disagree with you so much that he blocks you but it’s something that either doesn’t bother Elam or he’s willing to look passed (for the time being)?

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@The Question:

AVfM has turned into A Voice for Housewives trying to Build a Better Beta, and Roosh V/RoK has turned into PUA’s trying to Find a Housewife.

They’ve become natural frenemies.

The Lone Planet
The Lone Planet
5 years ago

Women hate being bored, so what?

That’s their problem, not mine.

The Question
5 years ago

@kfg

I definitely can see women trying to take advantage of this push for traditional housewives if it gains momentum. They could even have a bumper sticker slogan to signal their “quality girl” status: “I’m on the Red Pill.”

Jeremy
5 years ago

@The Question

I don’t understand for the life of me why Roosh banned you from his sites but is talking to Paul Elam.

Paul and Roosh are “idealogues” whose income at this point depends on an idea. Facts are often very inconvenient to income streams.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Culum – While the circumstances were a little different – I only tried a real sugarbaby once – the seduction was always the same, I was mentor/provider – they were the prize, always.. I did learn some interesting things that I want to echo: I could flip the script sometimes and get them into a desirous state. When having sex, real dominance could be worked up to if I got them aroused enough. It could get pretty wild if the stars aligned just right and I think I needed to experience that againg, so I don’t regret it. It broke… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@Distortion ” To be more specific on the art thing. To be great in many crafts, you need to spend most of your time perfecting it. The results, however are understood by only the small circle and not by the mass audience. That creates quality but lacks quantity and you wont get much popularity and status. I wander if there are more artists/scientists that have this crossroad in front of them. I know that “hypergamy wise” I should get on the business side of things. I found many guys on game forums discussing career goals and I feel like most… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago

@Blaximus …Money doesn’t solve all problems in life. I’ve known a few wealthy people that have killed themselves and were absolutely miserable. I know, I know, everyone thanks that they’d be different, and there is validity to that up to a point, but if your mindset is off, money can’t always fix that and may just expand the problems of life or create more, horrible new problems. Speaking of this, the recent powerball lotto jackpot in the U.S. brought to mind a realization for myself. The realization was that winning such a lottery would probably be the most unhealthful thing… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
5 years ago

“no battle plan survives contact with the enemy” this is true in all cases save one. the battle of the sexes. if a young man reads old CH, Rollo and Ya, he will know every move his female opponent will ever make and will preempt her with confident ease. driving men to the red pill with open hypergamy was a major tactical error. one from which women will never recover. if you must fall in love, fall in love with game. game and lifting are the same. in both places we push to failure in order to grow. lift as… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@Jeremy, Lol… I pondered this also. A billion dollars. I have a love/hate relationship with fiat currency. I told the wife that I wouldn’t alert the lottery folks, if I won, for 2 or 3 weeks. She was puzzled, but I understand that a giant target would be placed on you, especially in the immediate aftermath. I played in the hopes that I had a chance at one of the lesser prizes, like a million or so. That’s much more manageable and reasonable. But in reality, would I ” want ” a billion dollars? I think not. Even giving a… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Distortion: The only thing I can add to the advice you’ve already been given is that . . . I have nothing to add to the advice you’ve been given. It’s good, solid stuff. @Jeremy: Once every year or four I’ll scoop up a buck’s worth of change from under the sofa cushions and by a lottery ticket. If I lose, I’ve only lost change I’ve already given up as lost. If I win; holy fuck would that fuck up my life. My lawyer and accountant would have to put in a good deal of work before I even thought… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Rollo “For as much as I’ve detailed mens’ burden of performance, there is still a set of men who get offended by it because they think that performance is exclusively for the approval of women. It’s not. That burden, prerequisite or privilege if you like is about the merit and character of the man. Women’s attraction/arousal may be a byproduct of that performance, but men do not have the option to opt out of how it reflects on him. Even when you cop the mindset of “well, I don’t care what anyone thinks of me” that itself is an article… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“it almost feels like some kind of shaming component is in play (like meeting my burden of performance but doing so NOT for the purpose of getting the approval of women, but for the purpose of ‘proving up on my character as a man’ is just ‘wrong’)…”

Open up your eyes, and your ears, and your nose, and you will find that the sight, noise and smell of that shaming is pervasive in your environment.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

AVfM is basically turning into Vice now.

“Women ruin everything…”

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Blax

… did I just say ” cocaine ” on TRM????

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

” In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women.” And here is crux of it. Men being idealistic is not the problem; however, an imperative has pervaded our idealism for it’s utility. Thing is, the urge to take advantage of our utility I not some mistake, but, stems from a certain mechanism, a mechanism which, under current conditions is experiencing a positive feedback, it’s out of control. Our brother, like most of us before… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Distortion – A few thoughts come to mind, in no particular order. The art vs. money thing is a cliche and an ego buffer. As a writer and singer/songwriter I’ve had to find the right place for these things in my life. One can balance these tradeoffs many ways, but the key is to understand these decisions are tradeoffs and you shouldn’t be thinking in absolutes. I have friends who pursue art as a hobby – singing in a choir, painting and displaying at local galleries. doing photography projects. Me – I won’t do paying musical gigs, I either play… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Blaximus, did you just say…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJyQpAiMXkg

…on TRM?

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi
Jeremy
5 years ago

I actually have far more respect for Karen Straughan than I do for Paul or Roosh. As hilarious as it is to say, I think Karen understands masculinity and the burdens inherent to it better than Paul by far, and likely better than Roosh.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Summing up Rollo on Roosh – watch what he does, not what he says.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@kfg

“Open up your eyes, and your ears, and your nose, and you will find that the sight, noise and smell of that shaming is pervasive in your environment.”

but…but…she’s not LIKE that…she’s different!…lol…

i get it…i’m just having trouble applying it to my own life…it’s my cultural scotoma…but i’ll work through it…it just takes effort and time…

and getting outside my comfort zone…

The Question
5 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

Thank you for sharing that. I work in media so when things like this happen I assume there’s more to the story than what’s getting out.

The Question
5 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

I thought it was strange that he allowed the BBC to attend one of his speeches. What if someone at BBC leaks the unedited footage out to the Internet and destroys these men’s lives?

Just to clarify, I report at a local level, not national. My interest in this rift is solely in finding out what’s what when it comes to the manosphere. My experience reporting has just taught me to be suspicious of everything I read, ironically enough.

Jeremy
5 years ago

Personality cult income is the new side-job in a facebook-upvote-enabled culture and financialized economy.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Jeremy – Finally, something we can agree on economically/politically. Indeed, our financialized economy has so distorted the system, and dejected people are looking for heroes. It’s not just the internet which makes personal brands so attractive to people, it’s also the desperation of the populace. I launch my own brand on a larger scale late this year (working on the book etc. now). It’s in my domain of tech/startups/sales and the cult of personality thing is just so big in business now. Social signaling too, as after all, how does one succeed in a financialized economy? By who you know,… Read more »

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
5 years ago

“The main key to note is watch Julien and look at his subcomms…he’s not being “malicious”, he’s self-amusing with zero outcome dependence.” “All that matters is how internally confident you are and how does that reflect in your subcomms.” This is my failure, my internal state of mind is that I’m a fraud, by projecting a IDGF attitude I hide my inadequacies. The more I delved into my past the more I realised the presence of heavy shaming in my past. Interestingly my research into sports psychology inadvertently lead to something known as Affect Theory and the role ‘shame/humiliation’ has… Read more »

Jeremy
5 years ago

@scribbler

Looks like you’ve thought about this a lot more than I have. I’m still angry about it.

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@Culum Struan @jorxster Oh I can move and already plan on it. My plan was continue working where I am at now for another year or so. I am trying to get a job in a field that is universal — you can work literally anywhere in the world with that kind of job. Thing is its tricky to get the job as most employers want you to be certified (which I am not), however I do have experience in my current job, which is VERY similar to the one I want to get. After 6mo-1yr working at a new… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Hank: “A new place will have the same bullshit that I deal with here, but more of the things I do like.”

And more of the things you don’t like. The inland desert doesn’t get hit by a lot of hurricanes and tidal waves.

But now that you’ve clarified, your head seems screwed on at least reasonably straight.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Positive affects like enjoyment/joy and interest/excitement can be driven away by negative affects, with shame/humiliation being the primary negative of positive states. Once in a shame/humiliation state (Affect) it is very difficult to switch back to a positive state. This says something very interesting about blue pill men who have run into the wall of a dead bedroom. Given the way the amygdala seems to work, I daresay that it would not take too many humiliating nuclear rejections by a “trustworthy” woman in an LTR / marriage to create that affect. Such men would find themselves asking for Cialis or… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Jeremy

Maybe I’m fucked in the head, but more and more lately when I’m pissed somebody’s making money off something, part of it’s that I’m just jealous they’re making easy cash. The result is less anger and more willingness to look for similarly stupid/easy revenue streams for myself.

Jeremy
5 years ago

Wait, did Roosh actually take credit for making Rollo’s sex life better?

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

I have no issue with people making money. IDGAF if they make millions, if that’s what’s important to them. It’s like people masturbating 24/7, it’s none of my business. What I do have an issue with, is an economy that is so shitty, that people are forced to adapt a thief’s mentality. Get mine however. I have a lot of experience with people with that particular mindset. I also have a problem when people become money hungry. If they are thinking money will fill some kinda hole in their existence, well, that’s their problem. When their money crazed lust starts… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Roosh should call his stuff “Reactionary Red Pill”. Anti-homosexual, anti-evolution, pro “race-realism” = racist, pro-theism and incredibly misogynist – yes, his sites are filled with raging hatred against women. He’s bitten off far more than he can chew. He also doesn’t seem to understand how movements and ideas grow and evolve. First off, he did not invent the idea of Alpha males or Beta Males. But perhaps he was the first PUA to begin talking about it more globally. He also wasn’t the first PUA. He may have coined the term “Red Pill” but even then, that’s an idea ripped… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Roosh also promotes “Kratom” on his sites, a naturally occurring stimulant and mood enhancer. Here’s a little snipped on Kratom “Long-term use of kratom produced anorexia, weight loss, insomnia, skin darkening, dry mouth, frequent urination, and constipation. A withdrawal syndrome was observed, consisting of symptoms of hostility, aggression, emotional lability, wet nose, achy muscles and bones, and jerky movement of the limbs. Furthermore, several cases of kratom psychosis were observed, where kratom addicts exhibited psychotic symptoms that included hallucinations, delusion and confusion.” No, he’s not a crank…here’s the link where ROK raves about Kratom, of course with an affiliate link… Read more »

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