Never Take a Woman Fishing


(h/t to Zelscorpion for the image and ref for today’s post)

Hi Rollo,
On rereading Truth to Power a very inspirational post, I wanted to hear your thoughts on men with families such as my self choosing to travel on vacation alone.

In your videos above you touched on masculine qualities men being in the driver seat around decision making. I have a wife you as with many women is cultured to try assume headship of the household with decision making even vacations etc.

She doesn’t want to travel abroad as we have a 7 month old son where as I feel there is no reason why she should worry about doing so. Anyway the crux of the issue is I am only 28 years old and having sacrificed my independence early (at 25) have a desire to travel and I don’t care about rocking the boat to make that happen.

I would love to hear some advice about the benefits of and good ways of grabbing hold again of control of our own circumstances and decisions!

Never take a woman fishing.

That’s a little idiom I learned way before I was Red Pill aware from the guy who was the best man at my wedding, and my long time fishing buddy. I wouldn’t call him a philosopher, but he was a keen observer of women’s behavior and became salt-of-the-earth wise by default:

“When you take a woman fishing you’re trying to include them in something they really don’t want to be doing, but you like it a lot. So you think ‘I like fishing and I want to include her in something we can do together’, but when you do she complains about EVERYTHING. ‘It’s dirty, I’m cold, I’m hot, I didn’t bring a water bottle, where’s the sunscreen?, there’s too many bugs, why are there so many bugs?, why do we have to hike so far to fish? can’t we just find a spot by the dam? where’s the bathroom?, etc. etc.”

“So what do you do? You force yourself to make her comfortable the whole damn time. You don’t hike, you don’t scout for the sweet spots on the river or, God forbid, you try to get her in a kayak. You end up going out after breakfast and the light’s all wrong. You try to keep them clean and close to the ‘potty’, you bait their hook ’cause it’s filthy, you untangle their reel snarls,…what you don’t do is fish. Your whole trip becomes about making her ‘like’ fishing with you and not about actually fishing and doing all the things we do when we fish together or on our own. I mean, you want ’em to like it, but you’ll never teach them to like it because you’re too busy making everything right for ’em.”

“Unless they were brought up right and they dig fishing ’cause their Dad taught ’em to like it, never try to bring a woman fishing. They gotta come to liking it on their own, they gotta want to do it on their own. I mean, look at Dodge (our dog) he don’t care if it’s cold or 4am, he’s happy to be on the trail going wherever the fuck we’re headed.”

Back in May Zelscorpion tweeted a few of the pictures from this series and made an interesting point:

I had to admit, he’s got a point and it reminded me of the sage words of my Best Man. I think one of the tragedies of men’s Blue Pill conditioning is the presumption that they must find a way, sometimes forcibly, to become more compatible with a woman. I wrote about the paradox of compatibility a while back:

It’s very entertaining for me to hear guys reason as to why they got into yoga, or my all time favorite, salsa dancing as some means of meeting girls. I mean really, if that’s the goal you choose to devote the precious few hours of your leisure time to then I suppose a guy ought to take up scrap-booking or zumba.

If you’re picking up a hobby in order to meet women all you’re doing is attempting to Identify with what you expect your idealized woman to appreciate. If you get into something for this reason it’s not a hobby, it’s a Buffer.

Successful men don’t chase success – success chases them. Women are going to expect you to have your own uncontrived, interests, passions and hobbies established before meeting them.

When I first began counseling men in my SoSuave days many times I’d read guys telling me, “Well if she’s not into the same things I am she’s just not the ‘right’ girl for me”, as if common interests were some criteria that would trump his sexual interests in a girl. Blue Pill idealism convinces men that the “right girl” will necessarily love doing the same things as himself, but the all too common Red Pill truth is that men will have their peak experiences in life alone or in the company of other men who share the passions and interests their wives simply have no interest in.

Peak Experience

I don’t subscribe to Maslow’s theories in whole, but I do think his Peak Experience idea has merit. There will be times and achievements in your life that will stand out as significantly memorable. It’s easy to point to the experiences that should be the most significant; a marriage, the birth of a child, a religious experience, a first kiss, a school graduation, etc., you get the idea – experiences that should be the standard fare in a romanticized, idealistic sense.

We tend to overblow these experiences because we think they should be something to etch in our consciousness; and if we don’t, well, then there must be something wrong with us for not appreciating their popular significance. Tragically it’s our negative experiences that have the most lasting effect on us; evolution has made pain something memorable so as to help us avoid potentially life-ending future experiences. But the events that should evoke lasting good memories, the ones we are taught should be significant, are often the ones we ruin with unrealistic expectations, or we build up only to have them not quite live up to the fantasy we make of them.

The Peak Experiences I’m talking about here aren’t planned, or are just loosely planned by necessity. Some of the most memorable events you’ll ever experience wont be ones that you had a forethought about. These are often the experiences we hope to recreate long after they occur, but prove impossible to really recapture. Much of what makes up our personal preferences in life come from these spontaneous Peak Experiences. Remember the first girl you got with? Remember that time when things aligned just perfectly for you to hit that hole in one?

One of the reasons I have such a passion for snowmobiles was due to a day I blew off work so I could go out for the entire day on a beautiful Lake Tahoe morning. I went on my own which is something I rarely did. It was a Wednesday so there was nobody on the trails. The snow was only a day old and I took my sled to the top of a place called High Meadows, but even this pristine place wasn’t high enough. I took off in the back country and got to the top of a peak that was as high as I dared to go alone. Once I got there I had a view of the lake that I imagine few people had experienced. Then I fell back on the seat of my sled and stared at a sky that was so blue I never thought of it in the same way again. I laid there for a long time just staring and thinking about life and living and God and the universe.

On my way down the hill I thought how cool it would be to bring Mrs. Tomassi up there so she could appreciate it too. I mean, why wouldn’t I want to share such an incredible Peak Experience with the woman I love; the woman I want to share my life with? To this day Mrs. T has only been on my sled about 3 times. She’s very self-cautious and doesn’t like the smell and sound of the engine. That might seem trivial, but no matter how much I can try to relate that experience or try to recapture it no one but myself will ever have that unique event.

Experience & Frame

When I look at the guy with his dog in these camping shots I can now appreciate them much more because I know he’s experienced that same uniqueness. When you plan an event with a woman, when you make efforts to bring her into an appreciation of something you enjoy the experience of you must remember that you are, in essence, negotiating for her genuine desire to do so.

Now, before I’m run up the flagpole for suggesting otherwise, yes I know that many men and women do in fact find pleasure in commonly held interests. I see women on the river fishing in waders and at Trout Unlimited events all the time. My point isn’t the interest itself, but rather the desire to participate in it. A lot of guys hold the belief that including their wife, girlfriend or even a girl they’re spinning as a plate in something they think she should enjoy will have the effect of bringing them closer. The inherent problem with this is the presumption that including her in it will lead to some new shared experience that will bond them both in a genuine way.

The problem with preplanned ‘date nights’ is the same problem men experience with trying to pull a woman into his Frame by insisting she take up one of his hobbies or passions; it’s contrived and feels disingenuous to her. The point of the experience becomes about her being involved in it and not the actual doing of whatever it is you do together. The vibe becomes one of him making and controlling that experience so it becomes something pleasurable for her to participate in rather than really finding some inherent reward from it due to genuine interest.

Thus you get guys who (figuratively) take their women fishing and the event becomes more about introducing her to it than actually catching fish. Guys get so caught up in controlling unpleasant variables for her that the real experience of fishing is something entirely different. They want that woman to feel the same joy he does in doing something intrinsically rewarding to him, but the truth of it is she must come to it on her own.

Always Maintain Your Individualism

And this leads us back, once again, to establishing and maintaining a positive, dominant and individualistic Frame with a woman. She must want to enter your reality for it to be a genuine desire on her part – you cannot lead her into it, she must enter it of her own volition. Spontaneity is the key. Whether it’s an ‘insta-date’ from a PUA perspective, or an unexpected twist of plans in your marriage, that woman must want to participate in that event, in that moment of her own accord.

A good test of genuine interest with a woman is less about how open she is to trying “your things” and more about how insistent she is instigating her own participation in them. The trap most Betas fall into is converting “his things” into “our things” and he compromises those previously rewarding experiences into a sideshow he hopes will bond he and his woman together.

In Male Space I made this point:

When the influence of feminine-primacy is introduced into social settings made up mainly by men and male-interests, the dynamics and purpose of that group changes. The purpose becomes less about the endeavor itself and more about adherence to the feminine-inclusionary aspect of that endeavor. It starts to become less about being the best or most passionate at what they do, and more about being acceptable to the influence of the Feminine Imperative while attempting maintaining the former level of interest in the endeavor.

A similar dynamic plays out when men try to open the Male Space of whatever it is they find individually enjoyable to the women they hope will share in his enthusiasm. One thing I learned very early on in my marriage was the absolutely vital importance of maintaining my individual identity apart from my wife.

The biggest mistake I made when I was involved in LTRs prior to meeting my wife was allowing myself to get caught up in the equalist idea that since both men and women were functional equals we should necessarily base our compatibility estimates on how alike we were in interests. Consequently I progressively began convincing myself that I found their interests fascinating, but in doing so I slipped into their Frame. I was too scared of losing a woman and was too necessitous to experiment with doing what I should have – insisting on maintaining my individual interests and maintaining my own reality for a woman to enter.

I was fortunate in that Mrs. T expected me to control the Frame from the start of our relationship. I’ll admit, at the time it was something very unfamiliar to me to have a woman expect me to prioritize my interests above her own, but the purpose of this was establishing a Frame she wanted to enter into. Today I adamantly insist on having a life that is apart from her, but she can enter into if she has a real interest in it. This blog is just one extension of that dynamic.

If you are to maintain a dominant Frame with a woman you must necessarily set your interests apart from her own. You must still insist on your individualized identity and the experiences that set you apart from her in order to maintain a reality in which she continually wishes to genuinely be a part of.

Ted had a great comment from last week’s thread that speaks to this:

I don’t expect my wife to be like a man with male interests. I expect her to be a human with human interests. Something deeper than pop culture anyway.

I know a little bit about a whole lot of stuff. I’m willing to chat about any number of subjects other than tech and politics. It just has to he something better than what’s on TV and the weather. I keep hearing women can do anything a man can, so let’s see some intellectual debate!

More often than not truths must be brought to women by men. It’s uniquely refreshing when women have the critical insight to look for truths, but it’s refreshing because it’s rare – and it’s refreshing when they seek them from a man who’s Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. One of the best aspects of the principle of Amused Mastery is that, if you actually have the mastery that comes from individualized experience, it makes maintaining a positive, dominant and enjoyable Frame much easier with the same woman.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

776 comments on “Never Take a Woman Fishing

  1. @ NBTM

    ….And logically, because all such dancing is feminine primary. All romantic dancing is born of feminine primacy ideology.

    Lol, only in the minds of adolescent boys. Real men can lead women. Boys cannot. Reluctant as I am to say it, Insanitybytes might have a point that some men in the manosphere don’t know how to lead. I do know how to lead, so I know that some of her schtick is pure old-fashioned American bulllll-shit.

    Do you believe…yada…yada…yada?

    Oh, noes, I beleeeeeve just because Marse Rollo Jesus Fucking Christ says it. Fucking hilarious. Come up with an argument worthy of a man. Give us a ref to a research paper or something to support your position.

  2. EMILY ELLIPSIS by Seraph

    “@Liz, I got his point…”

    …finally after I was forced to actually read his post instead of simply reacting to the title and getting all indignant which was my intention anyway because it both satisfies my feminist bonafides but also gets me all hot and bothered emotionally.

    “I just don’t like the generalizations…”

    …even when they are then clarified and thus de-generalized in the body of the post I did not bother to read this first time.

    “and the way he gets his point across…

    …because he right about shit I KNOW he should be wrong about because my $200,000 gender studies degree and $300 textbooks told me how wrong he is, and I hate how well he argues his points because it makes it really difficult to argue with him which leads me to conclude I wasted $200,300 bucks on bullshit.

    “Oh, and reading the comments never fail to make me sick…”

    …which would seem odd, I know, because why would someone continually read comments which are guaranteed to make them ill? Of course, there is a chance I am generalizing about them ALWAYS making me sick but then you might accuse me of hypocrisy to which I would say FUCK YOU, sexist pigs!

    So bye, def not returning here…”

    …for at least 5 minutes.

  3. @ NBTM, whose testicles have yet to descend

    There are certain endeavors that are inherently predominately feminine. “Salsa” is one. Unless you just happen to love salsa regardless, which is highly unusual for a man, then you shouldn’t waste your time. When you sign up for salsa to “find a woman” you enter her frame and by doing so you sacrifice the frame you should be building and maintaining.

    Lol, that argument could also be used against waltz or any other lead-follow dance. Almost all lead-follow dances require a man to hold frame. Frame. Get it?

    Adolescent boy thinking: Girls have cooties and if I do stuff with girls I’m gay. Lol.

    Mature men understand that social interactions routinely involve women and that men have to lead.

  4. ” which yoga moves are dangerous in exceeding the limits of the skeleton?”

    The reverse backbends like the cobra and bridge are the ones to be particularly leery of. The spinal processes are there specifically to limit range of motion in that direction:

    Other joints are limited in their motion by ligaments a non elastic tissue. People who are “double jointed” actually have defective/damaged ligaments that cannot hold their joints together properly. Once these become stretched it requires surgery to fix it.

  5. @ NBTM

    The male dancer prances and moves her around like she is a prize. This is a form of worshiping female sexuality.

    Lol @ hamsterized bullshit. “Prances”. lol. Moves her around. Period. The man leads. The man commands the woman what to do. Period. This is the same for all lead-follow dances. Man commands. Woman obeys. Period.

    Yes, lead-follow is inherently romantic and inherently quasi-sexual. Nothing necessarily feminine about that.

  6. @ NBTM

    “Leading” on a dance floor does not = leading in life.

    Leading on a dance floor means giving (physical) commands, holding frame, planning, being observant of those around you, including floor traffic, moving yourself, protecting the woman, etc. Very similar to life. This is why people in times past found social dancing so helpful as training for life with a mate.

  7. Shaking my head a little bit at the Salsa/Yoga back and forth…


    The point was to do the shit YOU like because you LIKE it…

    Don’t do shit you DON’T like because you think chicks LIKE IT.

    Not sure how the discussion went so sideways on this with a smart crowd like we have here.

  8. Was thinking about this in a slightly different way. Things that are dear to you, you must keep some distance away from them. Anytime a woman expresses genuine interest, or even just slight interest of trying to find out something about you, they’ll never seek to learn about what’s dear to you or something you love doing without considering how to someway use it as a control mechanism, or a stick it to you mechanism.
    If it’s snowmobiles or motorcycles, you can take her riding occasionally if she actually likes it. But you need to somehow keep the idea in her mind that riding is your thing forever. And even that you enjoy riding the most when she isn’t with you.
    The more women become familiar with something or somebody, it becomes something to use. So if you introduce or involve her in your passion or hobby, the more involved she becomes with it, the less it becomes an activity and the more it becomes another angle for her to work.

  9. I have two kids and when they were young they were my hobbies, Family is first…Sacrifice… Little League, flag football,, Irish dancing (daughter) Disneyland, etc. Any idiot taking a “me” trip with kids deserves a thorough ass kicking. When the kids are older and on their own, then you can have some time for yourself and hobbies. If you are smart bring your ltr along, tone down the trip so you know she will enjoy it and you both can have fun. She will be grateful and probably not want to ever tag along again….And if you actually have a hobby that she enjoys, get a new more “manly: one.. Rollo, the trout, if caught in CA, is probably stocked.?….Looks like the lake in the picture shows the water level down,,,so CA.?. Still a great one…In the old days fishing in the high Sierra’s a 12” was a once in a lifetime catch..Here is one of my “peak” times. In SoCal we actually have some great mountain trails for ATV’s, and once every few years we get enough snow to do some snow surfin…….

  10. Regarding the actual post, I think the issue is important on both a micro and macro level.

    On the macro first, the Bull Burr riff someone posted above has a very valid point, one which the selfie girls at the baseball reinforces.

    Women tend to invade male spaces and activities, and co-opt them for their own self interest. They will do so without any regard for the actual point or culture or concept or original intent of the male space, although they will (sometimes) pretend to pay it homage at first before they take it over.

    Did those girls LOOK like they were there to watch a baseball game? Or was it the real intent to have something else to post on their Twitter/Facebook/Instagram feed?

    I see how many women walk around now with sports jerseys, sports caps, etc, many now changed to colors more female friendly (pink?), and I say to myself, “there is NO way that many women really give a rats ass about sports. This is all a way to either meet guys or to keep tabs on the guys they are already involved with…”

    One wonders if one has fed the other, where women have invaded sports fandom looking for guys and other women have realized that because of that their guys are no longer “safe” from meeting women going to a sporting event.

    On the micro level, it’s the same deal. Women either try to shrink the male space, or they attempt to enter it NOT with the intent to partake of it’s unique rituals, but to change them. Sometimes changing them is meant to make them more “female friendly”, and other times it may be to just make them less fun for the men, who will then give them up. Come to think of it, making them more “female friendly” also make them less fun for men, so, either way, women shrink the male space.

    For example, sorry if I mentioned this already, but my groups of friends are able to get together VERY infrequently, like tragic infrequently based on how close we live to one another. Part of the reason for this I believe is scheduling, but part of it is resistance by spouses and girlfriends.

    Yet, even though we hardly meet, one of our SO suggested that instead of having a MAN’S NIGHT, we have a HU-MAN’S night out, meaning all the ladies go out as well. She actually phrased it like that, neatly co-opting the concept, while missing the whole point of the MAN’S part.

    NOTE that these ladies DO NOT organize a WOMAN’S night for themselves, partly because there was ‘drama’ amongst a few of them.

    Another example…I once spent a whole day with my brother in-law, just me and him, and my wife indignantly asked what the hell I could possibly do with another guy for that long.

    I think, at their core, women are insecure about men discovering they can have an interesting life apart from them, and do what they can to hide that from men. If the men ever realized it…well, there goes some major leverage.

  11. @theadsgamer.

    Not sure why your throwing Rollo under the bus. I get that NBTM pissed you off. Why do you care? You like dancing and your good at it. I wish I was good at it.

    My old man, God rest his soul, never talked about dancing, but every family wedding he was Fred Fucking Astair. He moved women around the dance floor like he owned the place. He learned in Germany during the Korwan war. He was really good. I told him that once, he said “Eh, dancing is like working, every man should know how to do it well.

  12. @theasdgamer

    “Men, don’t be this guy (I’ll call him ‘P’). Superficially masculine. He beds women quickly, but they dump him first.

    P is very buff and in his prime at 30 Y.O. He lifts weights and has a great body. Copy P in doing that. P wears T shirts and lifts his shirt to let women get a peek and the women just about orgasm. Gasps and squeals. Very sexual. P grabs women’s attention quickly. P tells sexual stories and amps up women’s emotions very effectively. Copy him in doing that.”

    I know your kind. You are a dancing boy. The “buff” men intimidate you as they are fucking the day lights out of the girls you want but cannot get. So you pretend to yourself that you are more superior morally and that dancing is better than fucking anyway. Your the guy that never gets the sex he really wants and tries to make yourself feel,better by pretending to,yourself that “buff” muscular guys like “P” are “insecure” because they have no problem hooking up with multiple women who want to fuck them.

    But then I’ve known that about you for a long time.

    Oh one more thing, just call me “P” from now on.

  13. Wacokid
    I kindly suggest you read RP Parenting II. Even Scrib might have words to say about “sacrificing” for your kids. Best Regards

  14. “Not sure why your throwing Rollo under the bus. I get that NBTM pissed you off. Why do you care?”

    I know why.

    It is because dancing is not fucking and he cannot stand it.

    He wants to be fucking, wants to have been fucking, would rather be fucking than dancing. But he is afraid. He is outraged at himself for this fear as other men’s success or his preception of their success exposes his personal difficulty to himself. He attacks these men attempting to destroy the disparity within himself as their superior sexual persona inadvertently exposes his weakness to himself.

    He resorts to hiding behind insanity bytes.

    To understand the full depth of his dilemma, click on his icon and review what comes up. It is FUBAR.

  15. I have a 100% conviction, women don’t even like their own hobbies and interests, whatever dedication they have, can be dumped according to feelz.
    I think, that is why, they don’t understand men’s dedication to hobbies and activities.

    After the kids were born, my wife continued to play competitive sports year around, a lot of dedication went into it. Teammates were a mixed of married and not, some lesbians.

    And now back to salsa dancing, already in progress

  16. Seraph,

    ” I see how many women walk around now with sports jerseys, sports caps, etc, many now changed to colors more female friendly (pink?), and I say to myself, “there is NO way that many women really give a rats ass about sports. This is all a way to either meet guys or to keep tabs on the guys they are already involved with…””

    Back n the day I used to bounce at a strip club. Wanna here something funny? On Sundays guys would show up at kick-off and I would lower the music and turn the monitors on to the game(s). I was obligated to be there ( I also transported the women to the club ) but I could only figure that guys made connections drinking and looking at strippers, then carried that into Sunday Football.

    The chicks were basically ignored and pissed. The club owner only asked that the guys buy beer or whatever they chose to drink.

    Chicks wearing sports paraphernalia. Right now the Mets are making a world series run. I can’t count the chicks wearing mets stuff. It’s like the selfie chicks in the video.

    Women invading men’s spaces will only become more of a problem as EQUALITY ( * great fanfare and trumpets * ) is pushed more and more.

    Yet girlfriends and wives are a different issue.

    My 1st wife had zero interest in sports. I watched my games with a slab of ribs and a six pack unmolested.

    Wife 2.0 grew up with 2 minor league baseball playing brothers. She played basketball and softball in school. She watched football with me and it was only slightly annoying. She understood the game, but the rules and calls that were made baffled her sometimes, so she asked me to explain it to her.

    Now it is actually enjoyable to watch select games with her. She’s a Giants fan ( we live 8 miles from Metlife Stadium..damn ) and watches every game whether I’m home or not. I’ll still dip out to the local sports bar for a bunch of games for the camaraderie and hot wings.

    You couldn’t get her in a pink jersey tho’.

    It is true that the majority of women give fuck all about sports. There are exceptions, but even the exceptions gotta know when to back off and not invade.

  17. @redlight –

    “..And now back to salsa dancing, already in progress”

    Damn. Didn’t see that coming. You owe me a cup of coffee since you caused me to spray that last gulp.

  18. NBTM –

    ” You stick to the dancing. I’ll stick to the fucking.”

    Okay. No more coffee drinking while reading the comments here.

  19. Seraph –

    ” I think, at their core, women are insecure about men discovering they can have an interesting life apart from them, and do what they can to hide that from men. If the men ever realized it…well, there goes some major leverage.”

    You are onto something here.

    I’ve been with women who were jealous over my cars, my guitars big time, even my audio equipment. ” ..If you paid as much attention to me as you do to your _________” was a cause for immediate dismissal.

    Insecurity or jealousy or some bastardized combination of the two. Highly, highly plausible.

    They want to monopolize your time in praise of themselves. ” things ” that divide your attention can be a threat.

  20. @Seraph, I didn’t post a detailed argument because I don’t think this article, or any other on the ‘manosphere’, deserves one. Neither does Rollo’s audience, apparently, since most of them just followed up his dull essay with misogynistic comments about women who were bad at fishing. But by the way, when did he ‘degeneralize?’ When did he state the fact that our hobbies are primarily a result of our upbringing and culture, not just – or primarily – our sex? I mean, that’s a fact, and it’s why girls from say, rural Texas (such as myself) will largely be interested in fishing, hunting and the like, whereas the average guy from New York likely won’t. But of course he didn’t say that.

    I’m really not a feminist. But, anyway, if speaking to women in a condescending manner makes you feel better about your miserable life, please continue.

    As for the all people insulting my intelligence, that’s pretty rich coming from the ‘red pill’ crowd, a group of men I’m willing to bet my life on rank lower in education and income than the average American.

  21. And let the record show, your Honor, that calling the essay ” dull ” exhibits a sad lack of understanding and brings into question basic reading comprehension.

    And furthermore, speaking to certain women in a condescending manner is quite necessary under particular conditions.

    I contend that the jury has no other logical recourse than to find you GUILTY of proving all of that which has been spoken of, by barging in here and polluting a man’s space by flailing about and waving your arms in a ” Look at meeeee!!! ” fashion.

    You are hereby sentenced to 90 days in an AWALT re-education camp or until such time as you regain partial use of 5 of 6 of your senses.

    Good Day Madam!!

  22. So Emily, if you’re not a feminist, why do you get so butt hurt about the articles or comments? What’s it to ya?

  23. @kfg
    Hey look who didn’t get the point!
    The hobbies people have is a result of their upbringing and the society they live in. That was my point. And if NY was a bad example, take San Fran or London or some other city. Although, I do doubt that the average NY guy has ever used a rifle, but I could just be generalizing. Hah

  24. @Emily

    “I’m willing to bet my life on rank lower in education and income than the average American.”

    Assume nothing. This knowledge and the anger or disappointment that comes with it spares no economic strata, race, ethnic background, religion, age, etc., These attitudes, insights, realizations, angers, and such are completely nondiscriminating just as bigotry itself infects all. Not to imply that we are bigots. There is much truth revealed here. I earn well into six figures annually and I’m well educated. Probably a significant portion of participants here are also.

    It is good that you are young and can read all this without being too personally offended. Read Rollos books and the books he recommends. You will not find the same educational opportunity anywhere else. It is essential free and very well worth the time.

    You will undoubtedly be offended now and then. Just remain objective keeping in mind that emotions get in the way of understanding.

  25. “Hey look who didn’t get the point!”

    The point is that you’re a proven liar.

    And here is what most of NY looks like:

    And what average rural New Yorkers look like:

  26. @The Lawyer with a Visceral Time Problem:

    Which is obviously going about things the wrong way; it takes force to make a tree be a dining room set.

  27. Kfg lol point taken and yes there is a chance that the tree may become a table. But it is more likely that even faced with reality the tree will remain a tree. The problem with my analogy is unlike a tree, our tree can resist becoming something useful. So it may never become a table unless it wants to become a table.

  28. @Not Born This Morning
    Thanks, but I’ve been raised too well to be influenced by this red pill bs.
    The woman who support you guys here have some severe self esteem issues, I don’t. You guys can say what you want to me, stupid, ugly, feminazi, etc etc, doesn’t matter to me cause none of it’s true.

    Well, obviously no stats exist for average education and income level of ‘manosphere’ readers (though it would be an interesting study!) My reasoning is that the insane misogyny here must have some source, and I feel that this comes from lack of attention from us. And we don’t really give unsuccessful men much attention.
    I could be wrong though. Sociopaths are generally more wealthy than the average person.
    Either way I highly doubt real men like my bf or brother hold the opinions you guys do.

    Meanwhile manosphere bloggers like Roosh and Rollo sell a product. They sell to you the idea that you can change your life and ‘get girls’ while at the same time reinforcing your preconceived notions that most of us females are worthless.

  29. See the tree is resisting becoming something useful. And doesn’t even realize it is confirming Rollo’s essays by its very resistance.

  30. @Emily

    It is not what you fear, now you reveal you are limited by your own bigotry. You are denying yourself an opportunity that your current BF and brother cannot offer.

    You must first ask yourself why you are here on this blog and sincerely try to answer that question as honestly for yourself as possible.

  31. @Emily: “They sell to you the idea that you can change your life and ‘get girls’ while at the same time reinforcing your preconceived notions that most of us females are worthless.”

    No….they don’t sell that ‘product’. Women are not worthless…We love them, but if anything what we come here to do is learn to love you AS YOU ARE, and, most importantly, to love ourselves first!

    Furthermore, though you are not worthless, you, however, ARE predictable. As Kfg & many here pointed out, and, as we all expected, you are back…
    You are also solipsistic and completely unaware of it…but don’t let us stop you…emote to your hearts content.

    As Kfg has posited many a time, “Q, E…..”

  32. @Not Born This Morning
    The opportunity to be surrounded by angry misogynists? No thanks.

    Why am I here? It’s cause you guys were insulting a Christian blogger I started following recently and the people there mentioned Rollo.
    Thats it.

    @Is This Thing On?
    Well, Rollo posted a video of back when him and I went fishing so I had to reply again 🙂

  33. NBTM, Thank you for introducing me to AGH! That was too funny!! Especially the part about another man in his hole!! Good stuff! I shall be watching/listening to more of his stuff.

  34. @Emily

    You are new to Rollo’s writting, so bare with those of us who have been her a while.

    Here is what is really amazing. You are not the first woman to come in here, invading male space, as it where. What you don’t yet see, if you ever do, is how totally predictable your behavior is. Every woman that comes in here follows the same patterns. What is really interesting is that you will follow these paterns regardless of how many of us point them out to you beforehand. It truly is remarkable.

    As kobayashi says above, we don’t hate women, but you are totally predictable. This site is about disabusing men from the lies we have all been tought from birth regarding the nature of gender. Nothing here is about hating women. It’s about being true to ourselves.

    So go ahead and throw your accusations of misogony around. Completely miss, in the most solypsistic of ways, what this place is about. Show us your complete lack of empathy. And by all means keep coming back, time after time, telling us you are gone for good this time. Trust me. It never gets old.

  35. You guys are too nice to the tree. But who am I to deny you if you dream that knotty young tree is a beautiful dining room table worth possessing.

  36. Peruse the comments here gentlemen:

    Anything about the commenters follow a pattern for you?

    @Emily, your “Christian” friend is a proven fraud, but I have a feeling that wont matter to you. Just so you know she’s clinically bipolar and suffering from post-menopausal depression (and likely neurosis). Be careful who you take into your confidence online. Sooner or later she’ll snap her teeth at you for stealing her virtual male attention like she did with Dragonfly.

  37. Emily
    “”and I feel that this comes from lack of attention from us(due to AF / BB ) And we don’t really give unsuccessful men much attention(much pussy, unless, he’s got tingle).
    I could be wrong though(but I’m not). Sociopaths are generally more(tingle generating) wealthy than the average(beta boring) person( like my bf).
    Either way I highly doubt real (boring) men like my( no tingles) bf or(white night) brother hold the opinions you(sexy)guys do.

    Hey,Emily, why the hell. You’re not with your boyfriend and giving him some “ATTENTION” ( if you know what I mean ;-).

  38. @Is This Thing On?
    What? Our responses to misogyny are predictable? No way?! Well, Black people would have very predictable responses for the KKK.

    Oh please. If that WAS the case I’d leave you alone. I like traditional men too. But I’ve read about a dozen articles around here and Roosh’s website and they are all full of objectification of women, hatred of older women, encouragement of pedophilia, justification of rape, nostalgia for hypergamy, laments about times you could control your wife, discouragement of commitment, double standards towards promiscuity, hatred for american women, among other things.

    Unlikely. I don’t frequent blogs often. This is like.. the fourth I’ve ever read in my life. I’m an argumentative person by nature but I can tell there is no way to drive some sense into anyone here so I won’t be staying long.

  39. @Rollo
    What a nice person you are! If she really is bipolar and suffers from depression (doubt it), then maybe you should shut up about it? Stop bullying her.

    Kind of creepy that you know about that site.

  40. Emily is evidence of why I need to dial in my asshole game.

    Comes back for another dose of indignation right on schedule. Seriously, Rollo, she flicks the bean every time she sees the banner at the top of your site. Bet she reads your book to at least get angry masturbation out of you since she can’t get angry sex.

    Women aren’t dumb. They’re just predictable as shit.

  41. @Emily

    Stop bullying her.

    She comes here of her own free will, threatens to kill men and let them rot in her attic, then cries victim when dudes call her out on her bullshit. PROTIP: it’s not bullying when the dumb bitch brings it on herself. She likes it, otherwise she wouldn’t keep coming back for it. But you obviously know exactly what I’m talking about, otherwise you wouldn’t be back here again would you, sweetheart?

  42. Emily dear, you’re fast running out of male shaming tactics that simply do not work here. You are completely out of your depth and just embarrassing yourself; but it is entertaining.

  43. ^^
    God, you guys are delusional af. It’s remarkable.
    “Asshole game?” Good luck with that. lmao

    I came back cause I didn’t want you guys to get away w the crap you said about me. That’s it.
    And I highly doubt Insanity said anything like that.

  44. @emily

    It was on here, as part of the cut n’ paste from her blog:

    Any man running around attempting to reduce women to nothing more than easily discarded sexual receptacles is inferior. He is morally, intellectually, and mentally inferior. He deserves to be tossed out, thrown aside, relegated to the rubbish heap, and his very DNA to be evicted from the gene pool forever. If it were my choice, he’d be nothing more than compost for my rose bushes or perhaps a bad smell coming from my attic.

  45. ^ Thanks redlight.
    Buuut with regards to what the above poster said, what insanity wrote is a) not a threat and b) only directed towards men who are ‘attempting to reduce women to nothing more than easily discarded sexual receptacles.’
    And I agree that these men should be sent on a one way trip to Mars.

  46. One last comment!

    One of Emily’s comment on the other blog, was about her boyfriend was watching porn!.
    Why? , I think, he should be sent to Mars.

  47. The “buff” men intimidate you as they are fucking the day lights out of the girls you want but cannot get. So you pretend to yourself that you are more superior morally and that dancing is better than fucking anyway.

    IDGAS about buff boys like you. I don’t play on the all boys’ team.

  48. Hey theasdgamer,

    I have a resolution for us.

    You stick to the dancing. I’ll stick to the fucking.

    Fair enough?

    I was busy dancing and fucking.

    Lol at feeling threatened by boys who play on the all boys’ team.

  49. Common manosphere wisdom, for both sexes: Don’t marry a fitness instructor, a yoga instructor, or a dance instructor.

    From what I’ve seen, men who are dance instructors get laid a lot. Dancing is no guarantee of getting laid; you still need game and a strong frame.

  50. So….
    the adsgamer gets drunk and does the keyboard a-hole routine and Emily gets her daily fill of righteous indignation…
    I luv this place. Thanks Rollo. You guys r great!

  51. I like that you emphasize “positive” alongside “dominant”. This is often overlooked. The same holds true in raising children and training horses or dogs.

  52. @ Everyone engaging Emily: I don’t understand why you guys keep giving her attention (same goes for other analogous female commenters, they are more or less interchangeable apparently).

    There are scientific studies backing stuff like AF / BB up, and frankly in these days of open hypergamy it isn’t difficult to see confirmation of it – as long as you have the courage and intelligence to confront the cognitive dissonance.

    For me, more powerful than current manifestations of hypergamy, there was a stream of past memories that started making sense.

  53. @scribblerg – I agree re. there’s a problem with your frame if you have to keep being an asshole. One reason I got tired of the MMSL forum was all the schlubs who thought alpha equaled being an asshole. Alpha does require you to bring out the asshole at the appropriate time and place, but it should never be your default mode.

    @rollo – that was one helluva fish.

  54. “One reason I got tired of the MMSL forum was all the schlubs who thought alpha equaled being an asshole.”

    Or all the guys who thought that “being alpha” was something you did occasionally and not a state of mindset. A state of being.

    “Was it more alpha for me to buy a truck or an SUV?”

    “Was it more alpha for me to take the wifey to a steak house or italian?”

    Which is fine, we all start somewhere. At least these guys were looking for help. Plus, lord knows I’m no alpha.

    But try to help? Moderators got on my ass about it. Had to fit his narrative, which was NOT “improve the man” it was “save the marriage”

    You can’t save marriages. You save individuals and the marriage saves itself. (or doesn’t, since quite often what is best for the individuals is to split. But unless there was physical abuse, that would never be suggested there. banned if you did)

  55. In my admittedly limited experience…

    Quite often the women at gyms for lifting or yoga are women married to betas and are looking to improve their bodies as a confidence boost while they step out on their husbands.

    Just sayin’

  56. @ my bitch bob

    the adsgamer gets drunk and does the keyboard a-hole routine

    Boys’ Night Out ™, I Was Tipsy ™, I was In the Moment ™, and It Just Happened ™. Not my fault.

  57. @LH – Yeah, we disagree utterly. Being a bully isn’t a beta construction – what the fuck are you talking about? My nephew is big and strong for his age and physically pushes other kids around and hits them when he shouldn’t. I don’t encourage this, I punish this kind of behavior. Alphas aren’t bullies, assholes are bullies. Bullies are also generally pussies who fall apart when pushed back at.

    But this is why I took the angle in this convo that I did. I know some of you believe being a bully and an asshole is alpha and you are absolutely incorrect. Forget me, just consider Blaximus. He may be the most natural alpha I’ve encountered in the manosophere to date, tell us, Blax, are you a bully? Do you hit smaller, less aggressive guys just because you can? Of course not.

    Social dominance is not “taken”, it’s “given”. People grant you dominance, you can’t impose it. You can coerce people to be compliant and fearful but they will also hate you for it. This is the difference between the bully and the alpha – people are happy to slip into the alpha’s frame and he does so without drama or lots of effort. He may be intolerant of BS, he may be strict in certain respects, but he is not a bully.

    Bullies are assholes. Much of my social dominance and confidence came from standing up to bullies when I was young. I didn’t care – I’d rather get beat up than stand there and take it. I became known as someone you didn’t fuck with casually as it was certain I wouldn’t take it. But I never bullied anyone, nor did I have friends who were bullies.

    Even worse, you guys who think being a bully is being alpha really are only revealing you are still in a Blue Pill mindset. As YaReally went to great lengths to explain, you are likely the same guys who whine – “Why do the girls sleep with all the assholes? Why are they attracted to superficial alphas and jerks?” The fact that you are asking this question reveals a deep conditioning in your mindset you have not rid yourself of yet.

    Apologizing when you transgress is being socially intelligent and responsible – it’s not beta. This is exactly why I’ve taken this line in this thread, to take on this horseshit.

    Last. Consider Rollo. Another natural for sure – and for a long time a consciously alpha guy. Do you think he bullies people? Do you think he doesn’t apologize if he’s fucked up or acted badly in a given situation? Do you guys really want to hold on to this childish worldview of what alpha is?

  58. @lawyer

    I was saying about travel is that everyone had valid points. I travelled with mine extensively and often starting at 4 months of age for pleasure, for business, and out of obligation.

    You are absolutely right it’s not a binary choice. If one is going to do it, one needs to modulate their expectations.
    about the trip.

  59. @Andy – You are certainly an asshole, and you’ve been quite clear about embracing that in your life. Good luck with that – now fuck off. I don’t deal with you for a reason, you have little of value to share here that makes a difference to me.

    @WaistedLawyer – Still hanging on to your delusions I see. Thinking I’m telling this guy to submit to his wife or be beta or blue pill. One wonders if you have a reading comprehension issue? Shocking disclosure: Being a father and husband and head of a family is different from being a PUA and getting laid. One actually has responsibilities beyond oneself and has to consider his family and their wellbeing when making decisions for the family.

    One wonders what you and many others on this thread actually believe social dominance and leadership is? My guess is most of you haven’t held real leadership roles or if you have, you suck at them. Being a good leader means you are holding onto the “big picture” and frame all interactions with you as responsible for that. If you do a good job at that, people will trust your leadership and frame and relax into it, and enjoy being there. It’s a big responsibility leading a family and while I’m not the one saying “self-sacrifice” is the way, I am saying wisdom and thoughtfulness and consideration are.

    It’s quite telling that so many men on this thread cannot tell the difference between being a selfish, immature prick – like the guy in the comment Rollo cited – and being a dominant, powerful alpha male.

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