Never Take a Woman Fishing

never_fishing

(h/t to Zelscorpion for the image and ref for today’s post)

Hi Rollo,
On rereading Truth to Power a very inspirational post, I wanted to hear your thoughts on men with families such as my self choosing to travel on vacation alone.

In your videos above you touched on masculine qualities men being in the driver seat around decision making. I have a wife you as with many women is cultured to try assume headship of the household with decision making even vacations etc.

She doesn’t want to travel abroad as we have a 7 month old son where as I feel there is no reason why she should worry about doing so. Anyway the crux of the issue is I am only 28 years old and having sacrificed my independence early (at 25) have a desire to travel and I don’t care about rocking the boat to make that happen.

I would love to hear some advice about the benefits of and good ways of grabbing hold again of control of our own circumstances and decisions!

Never take a woman fishing.

That’s a little idiom I learned way before I was Red Pill aware from the guy who was the best man at my wedding, and my long time fishing buddy. I wouldn’t call him a philosopher, but he was a keen observer of women’s behavior and became salt-of-the-earth wise by default:

“When you take a woman fishing you’re trying to include them in something they really don’t want to be doing, but you like it a lot. So you think ‘I like fishing and I want to include her in something we can do together’, but when you do she complains about EVERYTHING. ‘It’s dirty, I’m cold, I’m hot, I didn’t bring a water bottle, where’s the sunscreen?, there’s too many bugs, why are there so many bugs?, why do we have to hike so far to fish? can’t we just find a spot by the dam? where’s the bathroom?, etc. etc.”

“So what do you do? You force yourself to make her comfortable the whole damn time. You don’t hike, you don’t scout for the sweet spots on the river or, God forbid, you try to get her in a kayak. You end up going out after breakfast and the light’s all wrong. You try to keep them clean and close to the ‘potty’, you bait their hook ’cause it’s filthy, you untangle their reel snarls,…what you don’t do is fish. Your whole trip becomes about making her ‘like’ fishing with you and not about actually fishing and doing all the things we do when we fish together or on our own. I mean, you want ’em to like it, but you’ll never teach them to like it because you’re too busy making everything right for ’em.”

“Unless they were brought up right and they dig fishing ’cause their Dad taught ’em to like it, never try to bring a woman fishing. They gotta come to liking it on their own, they gotta want to do it on their own. I mean, look at Dodge (our dog) he don’t care if it’s cold or 4am, he’s happy to be on the trail going wherever the fuck we’re headed.”

Back in May Zelscorpion tweeted a few of the pictures from this series and made an interesting point:

https://twitter.com/Zelcorpion/status/599493741573971969

I had to admit, he’s got a point and it reminded me of the sage words of my Best Man. I think one of the tragedies of men’s Blue Pill conditioning is the presumption that they must find a way, sometimes forcibly, to become more compatible with a woman. I wrote about the paradox of compatibility a while back:

It’s very entertaining for me to hear guys reason as to why they got into yoga, or my all time favorite, salsa dancing as some means of meeting girls. I mean really, if that’s the goal you choose to devote the precious few hours of your leisure time to then I suppose a guy ought to take up scrap-booking or zumba.

If you’re picking up a hobby in order to meet women all you’re doing is attempting to Identify with what you expect your idealized woman to appreciate. If you get into something for this reason it’s not a hobby, it’s a Buffer.

Successful men don’t chase success – success chases them. Women are going to expect you to have your own uncontrived, interests, passions and hobbies established before meeting them.

When I first began counseling men in my SoSuave days many times I’d read guys telling me, “Well if she’s not into the same things I am she’s just not the ‘right’ girl for me”, as if common interests were some criteria that would trump his sexual interests in a girl. Blue Pill idealism convinces men that the “right girl” will necessarily love doing the same things as himself, but the all too common Red Pill truth is that men will have their peak experiences in life alone or in the company of other men who share the passions and interests their wives simply have no interest in.

Peak Experience

I don’t subscribe to Maslow’s theories in whole, but I do think his Peak Experience idea has merit. There will be times and achievements in your life that will stand out as significantly memorable. It’s easy to point to the experiences that should be the most significant; a marriage, the birth of a child, a religious experience, a first kiss, a school graduation, etc., you get the idea – experiences that should be the standard fare in a romanticized, idealistic sense.

We tend to overblow these experiences because we think they should be something to etch in our consciousness; and if we don’t, well, then there must be something wrong with us for not appreciating their popular significance. Tragically it’s our negative experiences that have the most lasting effect on us; evolution has made pain something memorable so as to help us avoid potentially life-ending future experiences. But the events that should evoke lasting good memories, the ones we are taught should be significant, are often the ones we ruin with unrealistic expectations, or we build up only to have them not quite live up to the fantasy we make of them.

The Peak Experiences I’m talking about here aren’t planned, or are just loosely planned by necessity. Some of the most memorable events you’ll ever experience wont be ones that you had a forethought about. These are often the experiences we hope to recreate long after they occur, but prove impossible to really recapture. Much of what makes up our personal preferences in life come from these spontaneous Peak Experiences. Remember the first girl you got with? Remember that time when things aligned just perfectly for you to hit that hole in one?

One of the reasons I have such a passion for snowmobiles was due to a day I blew off work so I could go out for the entire day on a beautiful Lake Tahoe morning. I went on my own which is something I rarely did. It was a Wednesday so there was nobody on the trails. The snow was only a day old and I took my sled to the top of a place called High Meadows, but even this pristine place wasn’t high enough. I took off in the back country and got to the top of a peak that was as high as I dared to go alone. Once I got there I had a view of the lake that I imagine few people had experienced. Then I fell back on the seat of my sled and stared at a sky that was so blue I never thought of it in the same way again. I laid there for a long time just staring and thinking about life and living and God and the universe.

On my way down the hill I thought how cool it would be to bring Mrs. Tomassi up there so she could appreciate it too. I mean, why wouldn’t I want to share such an incredible Peak Experience with the woman I love; the woman I want to share my life with? To this day Mrs. T has only been on my sled about 3 times. She’s very self-cautious and doesn’t like the smell and sound of the engine. That might seem trivial, but no matter how much I can try to relate that experience or try to recapture it no one but myself will ever have that unique event.

Experience & Frame

When I look at the guy with his dog in these camping shots I can now appreciate them much more because I know he’s experienced that same uniqueness. When you plan an event with a woman, when you make efforts to bring her into an appreciation of something you enjoy the experience of you must remember that you are, in essence, negotiating for her genuine desire to do so.

Now, before I’m run up the flagpole for suggesting otherwise, yes I know that many men and women do in fact find pleasure in commonly held interests. I see women on the river fishing in waders and at Trout Unlimited events all the time. My point isn’t the interest itself, but rather the desire to participate in it. A lot of guys hold the belief that including their wife, girlfriend or even a girl they’re spinning as a plate in something they think she should enjoy will have the effect of bringing them closer. The inherent problem with this is the presumption that including her in it will lead to some new shared experience that will bond them both in a genuine way.

The problem with preplanned ‘date nights’ is the same problem men experience with trying to pull a woman into his Frame by insisting she take up one of his hobbies or passions; it’s contrived and feels disingenuous to her. The point of the experience becomes about her being involved in it and not the actual doing of whatever it is you do together. The vibe becomes one of him making and controlling that experience so it becomes something pleasurable for her to participate in rather than really finding some inherent reward from it due to genuine interest.

Thus you get guys who (figuratively) take their women fishing and the event becomes more about introducing her to it than actually catching fish. Guys get so caught up in controlling unpleasant variables for her that the real experience of fishing is something entirely different. They want that woman to feel the same joy he does in doing something intrinsically rewarding to him, but the truth of it is she must come to it on her own.

Always Maintain Your Individualism

And this leads us back, once again, to establishing and maintaining a positive, dominant and individualistic Frame with a woman. She must want to enter your reality for it to be a genuine desire on her part – you cannot lead her into it, she must enter it of her own volition. Spontaneity is the key. Whether it’s an ‘insta-date’ from a PUA perspective, or an unexpected twist of plans in your marriage, that woman must want to participate in that event, in that moment of her own accord.

A good test of genuine interest with a woman is less about how open she is to trying “your things” and more about how insistent she is instigating her own participation in them. The trap most Betas fall into is converting “his things” into “our things” and he compromises those previously rewarding experiences into a sideshow he hopes will bond he and his woman together.

In Male Space I made this point:

When the influence of feminine-primacy is introduced into social settings made up mainly by men and male-interests, the dynamics and purpose of that group changes. The purpose becomes less about the endeavor itself and more about adherence to the feminine-inclusionary aspect of that endeavor. It starts to become less about being the best or most passionate at what they do, and more about being acceptable to the influence of the Feminine Imperative while attempting maintaining the former level of interest in the endeavor.

A similar dynamic plays out when men try to open the Male Space of whatever it is they find individually enjoyable to the women they hope will share in his enthusiasm. One thing I learned very early on in my marriage was the absolutely vital importance of maintaining my individual identity apart from my wife.

The biggest mistake I made when I was involved in LTRs prior to meeting my wife was allowing myself to get caught up in the equalist idea that since both men and women were functional equals we should necessarily base our compatibility estimates on how alike we were in interests. Consequently I progressively began convincing myself that I found their interests fascinating, but in doing so I slipped into their Frame. I was too scared of losing a woman and was too necessitous to experiment with doing what I should have – insisting on maintaining my individual interests and maintaining my own reality for a woman to enter.

I was fortunate in that Mrs. T expected me to control the Frame from the start of our relationship. I’ll admit, at the time it was something very unfamiliar to me to have a woman expect me to prioritize my interests above her own, but the purpose of this was establishing a Frame she wanted to enter into. Today I adamantly insist on having a life that is apart from her, but she can enter into if she has a real interest in it. This blog is just one extension of that dynamic.

If you are to maintain a dominant Frame with a woman you must necessarily set your interests apart from her own. You must still insist on your individualized identity and the experiences that set you apart from her in order to maintain a reality in which she continually wishes to genuinely be a part of.

Ted had a great comment from last week’s thread that speaks to this:

I don’t expect my wife to be like a man with male interests. I expect her to be a human with human interests. Something deeper than pop culture anyway.

I know a little bit about a whole lot of stuff. I’m willing to chat about any number of subjects other than tech and politics. It just has to he something better than what’s on TV and the weather. I keep hearing women can do anything a man can, so let’s see some intellectual debate!

More often than not truths must be brought to women by men. It’s uniquely refreshing when women have the critical insight to look for truths, but it’s refreshing because it’s rare – and it’s refreshing when they seek them from a man who’s Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. One of the best aspects of the principle of Amused Mastery is that, if you actually have the mastery that comes from individualized experience, it makes maintaining a positive, dominant and enjoyable Frame much easier with the same woman.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

776 comments on “Never Take a Woman Fishing

  1. We should make a compilation of Insanitybyte’s comments here for these cases. Emily wouldn’t be the first woman to be shocked at how she acts to us (and, even more so, other women) on this forum. She goes from reasonable-sounding on her own blog to bipolar, often vicious, and downright weird on here.

  2. @Emily – Hi sweetie, welcome. So, you have been straightened out by Rollo on who InsanityBytes is. She came here and only was attacked after she began insulting us. The “smell in the attic” comment was only one of many attacks and denigrating things she said to us. Note that Liz and others here are treated well enough. But a few points for you, regardless;

    Male vs. female intelligence – Did you take my commentary on female intelligence to be “misogynist”? Lol, child, listen up. Whatever college you are going to isn’t giving you much of an education. Do some googling – I won’t do it for you. You will quickly find that the shape of the distribution of intelligence is very different in males than it is in females. While men and women have close to equal “average intelligence”, women cluster far more tightly around the mean whereas the distribution of male intelligence is much fatter. The result is that at the high end, the genius and above range, there are 8 times as many male geniuses and truly brilliant people than there are female. This is a scientific fact.

    You also seem to not know that our brains are not the same. The male brain is 10% larger than the female brain and we do have larger forebrains, where higher cognitive function resides. Our neurology also is different in how we connect parts of our brains and time and time again it’s been shown that women process emotions and social information better than men, but that men are better at logic and mechanics due to this wiring.

    This is all hardwired in our DNA, my little lamb. This is not a result of social conditioning (it’s actually more complex than that but I don’t think you are ready to digest epigenetics etc.).

    You claim several times that hobbies and other interests are a result solely of social conditioning, but how then do you explain studies of infants and their preferences for dolls vs. mechanical objects in terms of what draws their attention and how females and males show different preferences as infants, preferences that modern feminists would call “traditional”? In fact, what the past 20 years of evolutionary biology has shown is that many male-female differences are not socially constructed, but rather have a strong biological basis.

    Do you get that your view of men and women as “equal” with just different fleshy bits in places is completely wrong?

    Here’s some homework for you, my little lambchop. I’d like you to contemplate the following:

    – What does equal mean? Answer: It means two things are the same.
    – Are men and women equal (the same)? Answer: Absolutely not, we are different all the way down to our chromosomes.
    – Why are we a sexually dimorphic species? What advantages does that give us as a species?
    – Why does sexual reproduction help us as a species?
    – Why do females do the selection of sexual mates and men compete for that selection in all human societies throughout all of human history? Fyi, small aberrations do not prove that this isn’t so – the way biology works is that there will always be small aberrations, it’s to be expected, but it never obviates the norm.

    For some actual science on all this, check out this academic’s site – http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/ You’ll get a whiff of what’s now known about how different men and woman are, and how so much of our sexual behavior is not discussed accurately in today’s world, to the disservice of men and woman.

    I know why you are here. It’s because at an inchoate level in your own mind, you know all the equalist, female superiority-victimhood (ain’t it interesting how our society tells us that women are superior and oppressed at the same time) nonsense feminists have been jamming down your throat for your entire life is wrong somehow. You notice how men, boys and fathers are denigrated nonstop in the popular culture. You notice how the family has become so dysfunctional, and how women are running amok politically and socially in our society and realize something is wrong. You just don’t quite know what it is yet.

    One other point. This isn’t Heartiste – many men here, including me, concluded long ago Roosh V was a racist, homo-phobic fucktard. This isn’t another PUA site. We do embrace “game” – meaning we are socially intelligent, embrace our sexual desires without shame and go about optimizing our chances at having sex with the women we want, it’s also true that this this is the top end of the intellectual pool here. Many men here are lawyers and MDs and very successful businessmen. The dialog here is often quite intellectual and intelligent. You lump us in with Roosh to your detriment – because you will miss the gold here if you do.

    Challenge yourself: Go to the top of this page and click on Rollo’s Best of Year One link and start reading the articles. Forget the comments, they will trigger you too much. Just keep on reading and tell us, truly, is he not revealing and explicating some truths? Really? Be honest with yourself – we really don’t give a shit whether you get it or not. Do so for yourself, you will be a better human and person for having done so.

  3. A women doesn’t understand the core of a man’s life – never! It’s pure arrogance of them to think they would have the smallest understanding of the glorious nature of god’s crown of creation. But you as a man have to protect your core and make sure that no women ever get access to something she is not worthy of.

    From http://freedompowerandwealth.com

  4. Scrib you are too funny! When you have led men in combat come back and talk to me. Ad hominem attacks show the weakness of your position. You, Sir, are just a big talker and Internet tough guy. But even then you may have valuable information so I read what you write and dismiss that which is based on poor logic or faulty information. Ad hominem attacks show you are in my Frame and are fighting it. Best Regards

  5. ” . . . how then do you explain studies of infants and their preferences for dolls vs. mechanical objects in terms of what draws their attention . . .”

    And not just in infant humans, but in infant monkeys.

  6. All y’all like your drama (with exceptions), keep it up, it’s fun to watch.

    “Note that Liz and others here are treated well enough.”

    This is because liz is sweet, dragonfly is more rational than most, and leelee has big tits.

  7. No worries, Andy, I like Glenn and I can take it. But I really disagree with him here.

    Yesterday was “back to the future” day as you might know. Maybe you should watch that movie again? Biff is the alpha bully. His future in part II was btw designed with Donald Trump in mind.

    We don’t need to discuss what is alpha or beta, that’s pointless. All that matters is what effects on other people and especially women some behavior has. And the bullies aren’t loners nor losers. Women especially dig unpredictable assholes, really. It’s not about punishing some behavior you don’t like. Betas can do this. It’s about the unpredictability of being asshole.

  8. @lh

    Yeah I agree with both you and @scrib. The definition of an “asshole” is subjective. It depends on the tone you use, who’s saying it, context, etc.

  9. @ scribblerg : Thank you for trying to get your nephew not to be a bully. There are different manifestations of Alpha, as Rollo describes in his post:
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/
    The Alpha buddah he refers there is certainly a “piss poor example of a human being”. I wouldn’t be surprised if as a kid he bullied others.

    1. Alpha is a state of mind, not a demographic.

      There are Alpha bullies and there are thoughtful, concerned Alpha leaders-of-men. There are Beta bullies and there are Beta business successes who are pillars of the community.

      FWIW, I’m half convinced Emily is just another sock-puppet of IB. She uses the same language, sometimes verbatim, as IB and it fits her multiple personality disorder.

      She was recently called out as the fraud she is at Dalrock’s, so my guess is she’s creating imaginary friends to make her case on blogs she’s banned from.

  10. @scriblerg,

    I’m passing this on because I know your experience is similar. I have a buddy who was just bragging about how he is finally done paying child support. He’s looking forward to getting a better home now that he can afford it. Out of morbid curiosity I looked at his daughters facebook page. She recently posted. “I just can’t stand my dad anymore.” His son on the other hand seems very happy for him. Hypergamy, Briffault’s law, etc… This stuff isn’t restricted to women you are trying to sleep with. They apply to your own kids. There is a reason having a son was so important to men of days gone by.

  11. @Emily

    Any man running around attempting to reduce women to nothing more than easily discarded sexual receptacles is inferior. He is morally, intellectually, and mentally inferior. He deserves to be tossed out, thrown aside, relegated to the rubbish heap, and his very DNA to be evicted from the gene pool forever. If it were my choice, he’d be nothing more than compost for my rose bushes or perhaps a bad smell coming from my attic.
    https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/07/21/mentally-fragile/

    …what insanity wrote is a) not a threat and b) only directed towards men who are ‘attempting to reduce women to nothing more than easily discarded sexual receptacles.’
    And I agree that these men should be sent on a one way trip to Mars.

    Tell me, Emily, are you an activist currently demanding that women be forcibly drafted and thrown into front line combat in times of war? War seems to be on the horizon when I watch what’s happening, why wont you women join in the meat-grinder sacrifice you demand of your men?

    You see, in the society we have, which is still largely flavored by, if not founded on a now outdated set of social rules.. men are still expected to be drafted and die for their country. Women are allowed to vote. So in effect, women have power to send men to die with no reciprocal sacrifice demanded of the women. This is particularly true when you consider voting turnout by demographics and you recognize that often more women cast ballots than men.

    So, in effect, all developed-world women are currently reducing men to nothing more than meat shields while demanding more rights and more social power from men. Your indignation at men attempting to game women for as much sex as they can get is pure hypocrisy.

    You can’t and won’t see this, however, because male sacrifice is the air you breathe. You can’t conceive of a world without the atmosphere of male performance that you exist in so the nature of men that allows them to be such performers is entirely lost on you.

    The only reason viewpoints like yours are even tolerated is because society has such a hardon for appeasing the outrageously meaningless indignation your emotional instincts force you to seek out.

  12. Any man running around attempting to reduce women to nothing more than easily discarded sexual receptacles is inferior.

    Heh, yeah guys, don’t get in the way of women turning themselves into solely sexual commodities. Only women get to control that market.

  13. ” . . . my guess is she’s creating imaginary friends to make her case on blogs she’s banned from.”

    I lost track of the aliases she’s used for that ages ago. The Insanitybites is actually one of them.

  14. @Emily, you’ve left a dozen or so comments on this “dreadful” red-pill site. How many minutes of your ever-decreasing biologically-sound reproductive life have you wasted here trying to fix the internet? We reply to you because it makes us laugh. You reply because you’re angry, a puppet that Rollo makes dance like a fool -that, and the red pill excites you enough to take action to become part of it. Oh, the irony.

  15. This post hit home very hard. I was always struggling to explain to myself the situation with my GF. One of my main passions is traveling. I love the feeling of freedom and finding new things and meeting different cultures. She obviously wants in on the fun, but when I take her to any place that requires some physical effort she complains about food, water, tiredness, her shoes, etc. This used to annoy me to no end.

    My solution was to take her to “easy” places such as Hawaii, or other places in which you basically are comfortable 99% of the time, and go on my own or with friends to more rough places. This works although there is friction when I decide to go on my own to a “rougher” place.

    She wants to go as well, but if I take her, after a while I feel like I´m babysitting her and focusing on how to alleviate her discomfort and not enjoying the moment and myself.

    I guess I have to clearly mark the line in the sand and claim my travel space. This year I´m traveling with a friend to central asia, I don´t think she would have been able to cope.

  16. @WaistedLawyer – Just have to point something out. I never knew you existed before yesterday, but apparently you have been following me for a while and are only now making your presence known via adolescent poo-flinging that adds zero value to this dialog. It would seem I am in your head – you certainly are not in mine.

    But hey, keep it up, you are letting us all know exactly who you are.

  17. Scribbler: “Being a good leader means you are holding onto the “big picture” and frame all interactions with you as responsible for that. If you do a good job at that, people will trust your leadership and frame and relax into it, and enjoy being there. It’s a big responsibility leading a family and while I’m not the one saying “self-sacrifice” is the way, I am saying wisdom and thoughtfulness and consideration are.”

    I agree with this very much, that’s how to lead. But the point is, you don’t try to get the trust by being nice so they follow you (they wont). You follow the “big picture” ruthlessly and in this pursuit you can even bully the slackers to make them do better.

    And in such a scenario you don’t have to be afraid they’ll run away. You needn’t even mind if they think you are an unjust asshole and hate you. You run for the “big picture” and if they want their share of the loot, they’ll have to stick to you. And out of this they will try to qualify to you, try to get you to being nice to them because they don’t have a choice. And if you give them the chance to qualify to you, get you to being nice, they will even like you then.

    But coming back to your nephew: Little kids are of course not mindful leaders. And who knows how many great leaders were bullies as kids? They all have to start somewhere, get a step into “social dominance”.

    And when we come to “alpha mindset”, it is surely not about apologizing and trying to qualify to people by being nice.

    Of course this isn’t Heartiste here and I’m glad about it. But some time back someone here gave the advice to newcomers to also read there, to “harden yourself more”.

    And of course it depends on what you want. If you just need to keep the pussy of some post-wall wife wet you also pay for, you don’t have to be an asshole. But if you want to make that 23 year old HB9 stripper addicted to you, you can hardly be too much of an unpredictable asshole. Leader of men and holding your frame is not gonna do it there.

  18. Scrib What you know or do not know isn’t my issue. I have posted infrequently before and unless something interests me will post little until that time. I do not bloviate as you do Good Sir. But I do hope you enjoy your life. Best Regards

  19. I remember reading somewhere on this blog a car reviewer writing something about being paid to take cool car out for a week, somewhere in the Europe (out in the alps or something…) and then come back and write the review. And at some point on his “test ride” he realized how lucky he was that his wife was not coming with him, he suddenly realized how happy he was. Alone. The wind in his face, him. Alone. Just the car, and the road, his life, the places, the freedom. Without someone complaining that he was driving too fast, or that the road was too windy, or that it was wet, or cold, or dry, or hot or this or the other…

    Ya.

    Ya.

    Oh yeah.

    Yeah.

  20. I have to wonder about the classification of men who use women as wet holes being “inferior” when I see rock stars and famous athletes whose entire lives amount to essentially that, and yet still the women come to them. If that’s being inferior, then let me load up on inferiority.

  21. Back when I was a poor student my then girlfriend worked for a company transferring test-cars for German automakers. One day she got an Audi RS4 and brought it to me because she knew how much I love fast cars. I took it up the serpentines sideways, all it got. Breaking crazy late into corners I couldn’t see into and all that. Of course she was complaining, trying to get me to be careful – we weren’t even insured with me driving actually. Boy did she love me.

  22. Rollo, if I sound like Insanity I consider that a compliment. She’s a terrific writer.
    But writing isn’t my strong point, so I doubt that that my writing resembles hers.
    She’s just someone I respect.
    Oh and btw, all the red pill lingo I know I learnt by reading a dozen articles on here and on Roosh’s website.

  23. @Rollo Tomassi

    She was recently called out as the fraud she is at Dalrock’s, so my guess is she’s creating imaginary friends to make her case on blogs she’s banned from.

    Have we eliminated the idea of a paid troll? I’m certain that there are plenty of hormonal spinsters with time on their hands to troll. Yet, I wasn’t kidding when I said it was a distinct possibility that there are people who are being paid to troll in the manosphere.

  24. @Emily

    Rollo, if I sound like Insanity I consider that a compliment. She’s a terrific writer.
    But writing isn’t my strong point, so I doubt that that my writing resembles hers.
    She’s just someone I respect.
    Oh and btw, all the red pill lingo I know I learnt by reading a dozen articles on here and on Roosh’s website.

    Jesus, wasn’t that just cut-and-paste from the last time IB changed her name and posted in response?

  25. You know, earlier up there when Emily said she was not going to come back, and someone else immediately said she was definitely coming back…I thought to myself that she was going to be the one NAWALT. Hahahahaaaaaaaaaa…

    Someone please get me one freaking woman who will do what she says! Even just one.

    Well. I guess its true. NAWALT. Some have a pussy. Majority don’t.

  26. @IAS – The Alpha buddha he talks about in that article is never described as a bully, nor are any other examples of alpha Rollo has discussed.

    Let me break it down for you guys one more time – it seems it’s remedial time on The Rational Male.

    What is the difference between coercing someone to do something and them submitting to your dominance? Answer: Coercion is involuntary at some level, it’s done under the threat of force/abuse/consequences in a capricious, unfair and arbitrary way. One has not won submission to one’s frame by telling a person “Do this or I’ll punch you in the face”. All you’ve got is compliance.

    Submission is voluntary. Social dominance exists only because other’s acknowledge it, it’s not achieved unless other’s willingly submit. Consider the example of a boss/mgr who actually is teaching you and molding you and developing you in the work you do. They demonstrate mastery and wisdom and you willingly comply with his/her instructions and direction and actively see that person as a leader who you want to follow – that’s submission in a work context. Contrast this with the incompetent, bureaucratic hack kind of boss who gives you lots of things to do that don’t really make sense to you. Since he has authority over you, you comply to some degree with his/her instructions but you never “submit” to his/her dominance.

    Compliance doesn’t equal submission. This is a lesson many leaders never learn, and such people often find leadership to be unsatisfying as “people just don’t do what they are told”. I have had substantial leadership training in my life and the first step to leading anyone is understanding what matters to them. Leadership requires one to be bigger than themselves in their awareness. It requires social intelligence. Being a bully requires threatening people.

    I wish YaReally was here, he did such a great job of destroying the “girls love to sleep with assholes” horseshit. Any of you guys who are stuck thinking this way need to get this: It’s not that they like sleeping with assholes, it’s that they don’t want to sleep with you that pisses you off. It’s your own mindset that causes you to be angry, as at some level you see a woman’s lack of attention to you as confirming your deepest fears about yourself. You see their attention to another man as a personal insult.

    In a way, this means most of you guys still have women on a pedestal. You see, to me now, a woman’s attraction/interest is merely data. I watch how it works with other guys and myself, and what I see is that women react to demonstrations of value and social skill/intelligence and dominance. Their interest or lack is merely feedback and I use it to calibrate and focus my efforts. When I see a woman interested in another guy, it never looks to me like “she loves assholes” – what I see is a guy who projects his own perception of his own value. He’s not pussy-begging like many of you, he’s creating a frame that a woman wants to be in. Sure, sometimes I see people in dysfunctional abusive relationships, where the woman is working out some Daddy stuff and keeps going back to the abuser, but that has more to do with pathology, it’s not typical.

    And of course women respond to dominance that is rough and not necessarily very verbal or polite. There is a huge difference between this and being a bully and an asshole. Get that your inability to see the simple distinctions I’m making here is indicative of your Blue Pill mindset and lack of understanding of everything that is discussed here.

    The answer, for any of you interested in growing instead of flinging dung around? Focus inward on your mindset. Focus on your life as a project that you love working on. Focus on developing yourself and being selfish about your life and getting what you want first and last.

    Here’s a real world example from my life with the 26 yr old plate I’ve discussed here before, N, the pro-domme who I see non-professionally on occasion and isn’t domme with me.

    Our relationship was totally on her terms. I got laid by her initially due to sympathy, as she felt like she was giving an old guy a gift. Of the 4-5 times we had sex over 15 months, only twice was it wild – but even then, she retained the upper hand. Still, she’s quite wild and it was fun but I always felt something was amiss. Over the past 6 months, I’ve had a huge RP growth spurt and have truly become my own point of of mental origin and even though we had good sex one time a bout 6 weeks ago, still, it was not what I wanted.

    I realized at last that our relationship was on her terms, not mine. She did seem to submit to me as i did some personal life coaching with her, but still, she was uncompliant. My daily motivations went unresponded to often and still I was chasing her around. Many here would be high-fiving me for fucking a 26 yr old hottie at all, but in fact, it always left me feeling less great afterwards, even when the sex was wild.

    So I told her last week that I’m done giving and not getting with her – but that I wasn’t angry and that she didn’t do anything wrong. It was that I volunteered to chase her around and hope for crumbs from her, it was that I didn’t value myself enough with her. I made clear that I was stopping it all, but that if she wanted to be friends and see me from time to time for whatever reason, that would be great.

    I also use email tracking software, and had said this to her in a note. Contrary to our previous communications which she would barely look at, my little email-open dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree. She’s gone back and looked at a dozen previous emails I sent her, sometimes several times and several times a day. She keeps re-opening them and I keep seeing the opens. She just opened one while I was typing this – I’m in her head finally. You see, I’ve legitimately changed. The idea of chasing her around, running my weak game just looks stupid to me. The only way she’ll be in my life is if she submits to me. She probably won’t – I truly don’t care. Now also get that I could have probably wrangled a fuck or two more out of her over the next 6 months by being her emotional tampon and someone she leans on when she’s feeling down, but I’m done with that. It’s not what I want.

    I turned the tables similarly with two other women and one has responded beautifully. We had porn quality sex the other night, and she was blown away by me. She’s not LTR material so she’s plated, but she’s submissive as shit. And I barely said anything to her, I just behaved and framed it differently. She was like, “You are different, and I love it.” I left her with the taste of my cum in her mouth, falling asleep on her bed with that cock-dazed look a woman has after a raucous fucking without a second thought. She did things sexually with me she hadn’t done before and is now completely submissive to me.

    My mindset is this: I will only be with these women in a way that works for me and if they aren’t up for that, NEXT. Period. I’m okay with them saying no – I don’t give a shit. There are many, many women in this world and I only focus on those who submit to me. The rest can carry on as they were without any further thought from me…

  27. @scribble, on the surface, one might think the distinction between alpha and bully would be small, or nonexistent, but you laid it out well. I’m saving that in my head for future son talks. Thanks.

  28. @scribblerg
    Wow such a long post! And all for me? tybb.
    Anyway, the ‘smell in the attic comment was specifically against men who treat us as sexual commodities. Stop acting like its an insult to all of you – unless you are confessing to something here? Hmm
    As for Liz, dragonfly and the other women supporting you here, no offense to them but it seems like they have masochistic tendencies.

    “The result is that at the high end, the genius and above range, there are 8 times as many male geniuses and truly brilliant people than there are female. This is a scientific fact.”
    I don’t know if thats true… but are you insinuating that the commentators here are likely to be of genius level IQ? Unlikely. Most genius males are those socially awkward eggheads and mathematicians in my university. Not you guys. Nice try though.

    “The male brain is 10% larger than the female brain and we do have larger forebrains, where higher cognitive function resides. … This is not a result of social conditioning (it’s actually more complex than that but I don’t think you are ready to digest epigenetics etc.).”
    Pseudoscience

    “– What does equal mean? Answer: It means two things are the same.”

    Incorrect. Equal means equivalent. I don’t think we are the same, but I do think we are equal in many respects.

    I know why you are here. It’s because at an inchoate level in your own mind, you know all the equalist,”
    I’m here mainly cause you guys insulted a blogger I follow. But now I’ve been dragged into an argument. Oh and stop making assumptions. Since Rollo posted BGR’s website, you can see my posts there, I am v much a supporter of gender roles within marriage.

    “You notice how the family has become so dysfunctional, and how women are running amok politically and socially in our society and realize something is wrong. You just don’t quite know what it is yet.”
    And you do? luckily the Islamic world and Africa exist to remind us what life was like for women before feminism.

    Lastly, I agree that Rollo is basically misogyny ‘lite’ as opposed to Roosh’s more blatant vulgar misogyny. I have read the articles, and there is some truth there. Unfortunately it’s buried under a large amount of filth.

  29. @Emily “I’m here mainly cause you guys insulted a blogger I follow. But now I’ve been dragged into an argument.”

    So, you’re admitting that you like men to drag you? Or are you admitting that nobody but yourself can drag you into typing all on your own and hitting reply all on your own?

    See how silly you look? You allowed yourself to drag yourself into this place. That’s called Red-Pill Pull. You can’t fight it, but you sure do squeal a lot trying to. lol.

  30. As already told I’m rather distant friend with a former HB10 who only didn’t pursue a career as professional model because her father is already so filthy rich she never had to do anything but follow her heart.

    I’m gonna tell you where she went: For some heroine addict wannabe artist who let out all the moods of his addiction on her up to her attempting suicide. And he used her fine body to learn tattooing instead of using half a pig like the others.
    When it was over, she didn’t say “boy was I stupid, I’m glad it’s over”, no. Precious emotional treasures where those memories.

  31. Emily
    “Africa exists to remind us what life was like for women before feminism”.

    Yes. In Africa, we men drink our beer from out of mother’s skulls.

  32. @scribblerg

    I also use email tracking software, and had said this to her in a note. Contrary to our previous communications which she would barely look at, my little email-open dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree. She’s gone back and looked at a dozen previous emails I sent her, sometimes several times and several times a day. She keeps re-opening them and I keep seeing the opens.

    What software is this that you use? Being an engineer I like to keep myself abreast of stuff like that. It might be nice to see when people open old e-mails I’ve sent them.

  33. @emily, P.S. “But now I’ve been dragged into an argument.” You say you are equal, but see how your language plays the part of a victim?

    Emily: “You mean men dragged me into this argument. I’m just a helpless defender of another defenseless blogger you put down.” #GirlPower!

  34. Great post as usual Rollo.

    This article isn’t related to this current post, but you should check out the gems here:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3283704/The-women-haven-t-sex-decade-s-like-celibate-s-men-s-fault.html

    “Shirley Yanez (right), 59, has been celibate for 15years after falling ill with a 8lb fibroid in her uterus which was due to her promiscuous youth.”

    “She has been divorced 3 times.”

    She now offers life-coaching lessons to poor people.
    “Rejecting advances is not something that, at my age, I have to contend with very often but part of my work is teaching young girls that sex should be a reward for men who put them on a pedestal and treat them well.”

    It’s still “men’s fault”. Seriously. I wish I was making this shit up. Just handing you more ammunition for you to work with.

  35. Lol. Here’s what the commentators here do, for those who have given us some idea:

    CEO – CaveClown
    Specialist physician- SJF
    Rocket science – Jeremy
    Electrical engineering/theoretical physics – MSimon
    Lawyer – waistedlawer (I presume)
    Aviation (I think) – BuenaVista
    Economic consulting – Scribblerg
    large brand design/promotion – Rollo
    orthopedics – me
    Ne’er-do-well (hey, y’all need one) – fleezer
    Professional sports (back in the day) – AgentP

    Clearly a bunch of dumbasses.

    Emily has a cartoon understanding of what high intelligence looks like. It’s interesting to see the dynamic in action. – basically a reverse halo effect. People tend generalize attributes in others. If you like something about them (say their appearance), you tend to think that everything about them is good. If you dislike something about them (say their RP views), you tend to view everything about them in a negative light.

    Of course, a lot of it is just ad hominem. Ah well.

  36. For the record I am an Architect, I own a practice. I took a sabbatical to indulge in pro sports activities for a few years. I only design towers that look like big dicks though, you know, patriarchy

  37. We have finance guys, IT guys, engineers, architects, advertising and promotion guys, scientists, teachers, etc. But Emily thinks we are dumb asses because we don’t agree with her. So guys, I guess all those degrees and paychecks count for absolutely nothing!

    I hope my boss doesn’t friend out…

  38. 38.
    (p. 72)
    George believes that women have difficulty coping with the stress of executive decisions. Sally is
    promoted into a senior management position and George soon complains that Sally won’t be able to
    cope with this job. George is exhibiting which of the following perceptual errors?
    A. Attribution error
    B. Stereotyping
    C. Projection bias
    D. Halo effect
    E. Recency effect

    good ol’ uni classes…

  39. Degrees in Chem. and Phys. Published in Byte and DDJ. My once-upon-a-time-leading-edge identify-organic-compounds-by-optical-reflectance research is used by NASA for space exploration and by the med. community for diagnosis.

    theasdgamer, Dumas #59

  40. @Scribblerg, lh: Regarding dominance, bullying, and coercion – I actually ran across something quite recently that I think works as a better model to understand these dynamics than the single-faceted dominance and submission model. If you understand status as having two separate forms – dominance and prestige – and lower status responding to them with submission and admiration, respectively – things begin to clarify.

    This is gonna be a bit long, but I think it’s worthwhile.

    From Kevin Simler’s ‘Social Status – Down the Rabbit Hole’

    Dominance alone, however, doesn’t even begin to explain the full range of human status-related behavior. Among humans, it turns out that “social status” isn’t a single phenomenon, but rather two.

    Dominance vs. Prestige

    The beginning of wisdom about social status is learning to distinguish its two (and only two) primary forms: dominance and prestige. These are, as one research paper puts it, the “two ways to the top.”

    If dominance is the kind of status we get from intimidating others, prestige is the kind of status we get from doing impressive things or having impressive traits or skills.

    A schoolyard bully is an example of pure dominance. He’s not impressive, only aggressive. Stephen Hawking and Malala Yousafzai (winner of the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize), on the other hand, are examples of pure prestige. You’re likely to treat them with deference and respect, though neither is threatening to stuff you in a locker. Both forms of status can, of course, exist simultaneously in the same person — e.g., Steve Jobs, who was brilliant, charismatic, and a notorious tyrant to his employees. The point is that dominance and prestige can be separated, and that they’re analytically distinct. They’re the two Platonic forms of social status.

    [….]

    The Arabian babbler is a small brown bird found in the arid brush of the Sinai Desert and (you guessed it) the Arabian Peninsula. It spends most of its life in small groups of three to 20 members. These groups lay their eggs in a communal nest and defend a small territory of trees and shrubs that provide much-needed safety from predators.

    When it’s living as part of a group, a babbler does fairly well for itself. But babblers who get kicked out of a group have much bleaker prospects. These “non-territorials” are typically badgered away from other territories and forced out into the open, where they often fall prey to hawks, falcons, and other raptors. So it really pays to be part of a group. (Keep this in mind; it’ll be crucial in a moment.)

    Within a group, babblers assort themselves into a linear and fairly rigid dominance hierarchy, i.e., a pecking order. When push comes to shove, adult males always dominate adult females — but mostly males compete with males and females with females. Very occasionally, an intense “all-out” fight will erupt between two babblers of adjacent rank, typically the two highest-ranked males or the two highest-ranked females. This is the babblers’ version of a Wild West showdown, as if one babbler suddenly turns to the other and says, “This town ain’t big enough for the both of us.” A showdown always results in death or permanent exile for one of the combatants.

    Most of the time, however, babblers get along pretty well with each other. In fact, they spend a lot of effort actively helping one another and taking risks for the benefit of the group. They’ll often donate food to other group members, for example, or to the communal nestlings. They’ll also attack foreign babblers and predators who have intruded on the group’s territory, assuming personal risk in an effort to keep others safe. One particularly helpful activity is “guard duty,” in which one babbler stands sentinel at the top of a tree, watching for predators while the rest of the group scrounges for food. The babbler on guard duty not only foregoes food, but also assumes a greater risk of being preyed upon, e.g., by a hawk or falcon.

    Helpfulness, bravery, heroism: these birds seem like regular Boy Scouts. At least on the surface.

    But here’s where things take a turn for the weird. Babblers don’t just passively or occasionally offer to help each other. Instead they compete intensely for the privilege of doing so.

    Unlike chickens, who compete to secure more food and better roosting sites for themselves, babblers compete to give food away and to take the worst roosting sites. Each tries to be more helpful than the next. And because it’s a competition, higher-ranked (more dominant) babblers typically win, i.e., by using their dominance to interfere with the helpful activities of lower-ranked babblers. This competition is fiercest between babblers of adjacent rank. So the alpha male, for example, is especially eager to be more helpful than the beta male, but doesn’t compete nearly as much with the gamma male. Similar dynamics occur within the female ranks.

    [….]

    Now: what in Darwin’s name is going on here? Why are babblers so eager to help each other?

    The naive answer is that they’re simply doing what’s best for the group — because when the group succeeds, everyone ends up better off. But this kind of straightforward altruism simply isn’t found in nature.[1] It’s not game-theoretically stable, thanks to the free-rider problem. Also note that babblers actively interfere with the helpful behavior of their rivals. If their ultimate goal were the success of the group, interfering with others would be entirely counter-productive.

    So the logic of natural selection compels us to ask, “What selfish motive does an individual babbler have to help others?”

    The answer, in a word, is prestige. A second form of social status that lives alongside the babblers’ dominance hierarchy — a kind of “credit” reflecting the amount of good each individual has done for others. So when two babblers compete to stand guard duty, for example, they’re actually jockeying, selfishly, for prestige within the group.

    And suddenly the intense competition makes sense.

    But as in our species, so too in babblers: prestige means nothing without admiration. If other babblers weren’t willing to defer and pay respect to prestigious individuals, there’d be no incentive to compete for prestige.

    But other babblers are willing to pay respect to prestigious individuals, in two main ways. The first is mating opportunities.[2] Babblers are constantly trying to interfere with their rivals’ mating attempts — but when a babbler has high prestige, his or her rivals interfere less. Among males, this translates to more mating opportunities; among females, it translates to earlier mating opportunities (giving one’s offspring a head start in the communal nest)

    The other perk of high prestige is a reduced risk of being challenged to an all-out showdown. The higher a babbler’s prestige, the less likely its rivals are to pick a fight — even if they stand a good chance of winning.

    All of which brings us, finally, to the point. Why do other babblers voluntarily defer to prestigious ones? The answer is simply(!) that babblers with lots of prestige are useful to the group, and therefore useful to keep around.[3] This is how it ends up being in the selfish interest of other babblers to defer to those with high prestige.

    Bottom line: Prestige-seeking and admiration (deference) are complementary teaming instincts. They help babblers stay attached to a group, keep groupmates happy, and secure a larger share of the group’s reproductive “spoils.”

  41. Emily,
    “Anyway, the ‘smell in the attic comment was specifically against men who treat us as sexual commodities.”

    Who treat us ! , you mean you Emily, or Insanitybytes?

    ” Lastly, I agree that Tomassi is basically misogyny ‘lite’ as opposed to Roosh’s more blatant vulgar misogyny.”

    The use is the word “vulgar” was last used by Insanitybytes.

    Oh Insanitybytes , I’m so happy you’re back and reincarnated in a young 20 y.o Emily.

  42. Emily is highly suspect. Could be IrritableBowel. lots of similarities.

    I knew an Emily a long time ago. Pretty good anal if memory serves.

    “…luckily the Islamic world and Africa exist to remind us what life was like for women before feminism.”

    Who says shit like this?

    ” Lastly, I agree that Rollo is basically misogyny ‘lite’ as opposed to Roosh’s more blatant vulgar misogyny. I have read the articles, and there is some truth there. Unfortunately it’s buried under a large amount of filth.”

    There’s a large amount of filth over at Roosh’s? Maybe I’d better hightail it over there for a look-see. My doctor says I’ve not been getting the RDA of filth lately and I hate running at a deficit.

    ” I don’t know if thats true… but are you insinuating that the commentators here are likely to be of genius level IQ? Unlikely. Most genius males are those socially awkward eggheads and mathematicians in my university. Not you guys. Nice try though.”

    You’re a moron. … okay wait, I don’t mean that you’re a moron. I take it back. I don’t know much about you so I’m making snap judgments based on your appearance here. For all I know, you really do like anal a lot.

    So you think ” geniuses ” are all eggheads ( very derogatory term coming from an equalist ) and socially awkward? You talk a lot of shit, just like IB. I’m offended by the dispersions you cast amongst us here. Now I don’t even care if you like anal missy!

    You claim to come here because InsanityBitch was insulted by…somebody…whatever-the-fuck, so now you’re gonna put us all in our places. How novel. There’s never been some crazy ho that’s shown up in the comments section to whine and cry and make lame assed attempts at insults. You’re the first, and we are all having second thoughts due to your abject brilliance.

    I commend you for standing up for yourself/your ” friend ” the blogger. I only wish my IQ was substantial enough for me to truly comprehend the magnitude of your feminine superiority.

    We are all wrong. You’ve shown me the light and the way.

    ….and then the drugs wore off.

    Much like IB, you add zero to the discourse here. Yet, here you are again and again. Yap, yap, yap.

    But this is an open forum. It’s one of the things we men here all enjoy. Your normal haunts can’t claim the same. So as long as you behave, you can pipe up anytime you want to, and I can enquire about your anal sex status.

    Because I’m filthy like that and my IQ is lacking.

  43. CC – I didn’t finish my degree until In was 38, because I got hired at a place that paid for it, and they wouldn’t give me a promotion without it. I managed to put a solid decade of IT time in without the paper, but moving into management required it.

  44. Senior Network/Systems Engineer. I plug shit in.

    Job gave me additional title 5 years ago – Systems Architect. I put racks together, fill them with expensive equipment with hundreds of flashing lights and miles and miles of cables, then I plug all of that shit in.

    I used to have to plug shit in, in London, Hong Kong, Dubai, Singapore and Mexico, but now I send other dudes to plug that shit in.

    Lately when I’m not plugging shit in, I’m a code debugger. I’m not a master of coding, but evidently the shit’s not that hard if I can find fuck ups.

    My degree is in Commercial Art. Lol.

  45. Forge: “If dominance is the kind of status we get from intimidating others, prestige is the kind of status we get from doing impressive things or having impressive traits or skills.”

    That’s a good distinction and as with Steve Jobs good leadership needs both. I think prestige with humans has more to it, but the equivalent to prestige of the Arabian babbler is in my opinion wealth, success in business. And for much the same reasons, because the economy is our way to protect from an otherwise hostile environment.

    But wealth is beta bucks. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be important or not helpful. It may even be necessary if you want to marry and make her the mother of your children.

    But as was stated above for the purpose of qualifying to insanity (why the hell?), the commenters here aren’t a bunch of loser-assholes who cannot get there lives together. I got the impression people are here because they found out they were lacking unpredictable, sexy alphaness.

    Finding out in what ways you always were alpha is good. But there are reasons it wasn’t sufficient for us all so far. I just don’t want us to become too comfortable in “being myself because I’m great already”.

  46. Tedd,

    Yeah, working on my degree now, just to fill the hole in the resume. Couple years left, more I if I continue to not apply myself.lol

  47. Blaximus – you’re a systems architet? LOL I’m a systems integrator. I work with architects to determine what’s needed, then I order the equipment you’re guys eventually rack and stack! I miss having my hands in hardware, but this pays much better, with great hours and zero travel. And no more 3AM emergency support calls! But yeah, I do less actual work now but needed a degree to get the job. Go figure…

  48. CaveClown – all it does is prove you can jump thru hoops. I want full lazy mode and got my degree online from Phoenix U ROFL. I just needed the paper, so instead of IT I got a business management degree, and the funny part is management saw that as a good thing! I just wanted into a higher pay grade. So I’m an IT guy with 20 years experience, and a degree in business. :-p

  49. Looks like I hit a nerve! No need to get all defensive about your jobs and education. It’s just the opinion I got from reading the posts on here and Roosh’s blog. Oh, and the fact that, in general, misogyny is most prevalent among the low income/low education class. My daddy is a successful man. I can’t imagine him, or any other successful, busy man, coming on here. Just sayin’

    Or maybe y’all are successful, and are just having ur midlife crisis and this blog serves as catharsis.

    The theories that I am InsanityBytes are ridiculous. I found BGR through facebook and insanity through BGR’s blog.
    You can verify all that if you’re feeling reallly paranoid.

  50. @All – My treatise to Emily was a feint to get her to demonstrate her irrationality. In no particular order:

    – I stated that the “smell in the attic” comment was only one of many insults she made to men here. She also made many comments accusing all of us of objectifying women so one could easily assume she directed that comment at all of us. Emily thinks by hanging on that tiny “fact” of Insanity’s comment, she’s won – she’s a fucking dingbat.

    – My comment about the scientific facts of intelligence were not in any way claiming that all here are geniuses – she just made that up. It’s a straw man and a red herring, and not an actual argument at all – she’s a fucking dingbat. She completely ignored the central fact of my statement – there are 8x as many brilliant men as there are women. Which is why smart men like me feel so many women are dumber them – it’s reality. Which is inconvenient for an upcoming “strong, independent woman™” in training…But she’s already learned to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of her FI induced state of delusion.

    Hint for Emily – Take a good look around you at the world you live in. All the technology and infrastructure you use was invented and built and paid for largely. and in some aspects exclusively, by men. Not women. Consider the creative genius of men and how it has been the engine of human civilization, honey. Wake the fuck up and stop presuming your superiority based on nothing other than agitprop and moxie. It doesn’t work here. You are a fucking dingbat, Emily.

    – The difference in size between male and female brains is an unassailable fact, yet she thinks calling it “pseudo-science” makes it not true – she’s a fucking dingbat.

    – She casts aspersions about intelligence here without knowing us. Me? I have a genius IQ, and am in the top .3% of the human population in abstract reasoning and verbal skills (discovered this when i was promoted to Director at the company where i sold AIG their derivatives risk system, they believed in psychology and had a full battery of tests run on every person who was to be promoted as a way of understanding our strengths and weaknesses). Many men here are as bright or brighter than me – I love being around men who are smarter than me, which is one reason I love this site. In my opinion, the quality of intelligence here is quite high but I don’t have data to support that, it’s just my impression. What is funny is that she claims we shouldn’t be that bright because we are in the manosphere in the first place. She has no data either, and much less experience here so what is she forming her opinion on? A few comments on one thread – she’s a fucking dingbat.

    @Emily – Fair warning, little girl. You are acting like a dingbat and will be treated and dismissed as such until you demonstrate otherwise. You are also bordering on cuntery, and if you become a full-blown cunt, you will be treated as a cunt – denigration and depredation. Your choice, you half-smart, loudmouthed, barely out of your teens fuckwit.

    Why do I say that? You don’t know how to argue. Your responses are not well formed, actual arguments. They are mere hyperbole, and as such, you reveal you weak critical thinking faculties.

    Correction on my occupation – I consult to tech startups (cloud and mobile), and help them launch and win their first clients. Currently work with 6, get paid a fuckton of money to do so and get equity on the back end so I also have a personal venture fund that will monetize at 7-8 figures.

    What have you got, girlie? Just who in the fuck do you think you are breezing in here, trying to sort us out when you likely don’t even pay your own fucking bills? Get a grip on yourself, you entitled, arrogant brat.

  51. Lol. The point isn’t defense. It’s to demonstrate how shaming, ad hominem, and (negative) halo effects operate, and the plain-to-see distortions that result.

    Re: IB. Good spot Rollo! I’m like 80% sure you’re right at this point. Not sure how you keep beating me to the punch with that kinda stuff, I’m usually a dead ringer for tone/style 🙂

  52. teddj4g,

    We don’t have a systems integrator anymore. That falls under my duties now. Our SI had a slight problem… he was often passed out drunk in his office, so he was invited to attend company paid rehab, of which he declined. Miss him, he was a great guy…besides the whole Jameson’s thing.

    I took over temporarily as SI and they never hired a replacement. Just folded the position under me.

    I like working with hardware but I despise long assed runs of cable and fiber optics. So I have the youngsters and telcom companies do it. At this point there are no more 3 am calls but there is a semi massive equipment/software upgrade looming, so I’ve ordered some temps and a shitload of espresso.

    27 years in. 20 with my current company, dragging them into the 21st century.

    No more travel for me.

    Fun and rewarding stuff, even when federal regs ( I’m looking at you, Dodd/Frank ) makes things more expensive and complicated than they have to be.

    Funny, I came from a blue collar environment as an auto body repair guy that restored cars for fun and profit. Took a job in IT because I thought I’d have more time off and fewer headaches.

    Live and learn.

  53. So discussing what we do for work is us getting defensive?

    That’s the best shaming tactic she’s got?

    It’s like she isn’t even trying anymore.

    *Sigh*

    I was hoping for something new and exciting in the world of shaming men. Same old same old

  54. @lh

    ‘But as was stated above for the purpose of qualifying to insanity (why the hell?), the commenters here aren’t a bunch of loser-assholes who cannot get there lives together. I got the impression people are here because they found out they were lacking unpredictable, sexy alphaness.

    ‘Finding out in what ways you always were alpha is good. But there are reasons it wasn’t sufficient for us all so far. I just don’t want us to become too comfortable in “being myself because I’m great already”’

    Definitely. I’m not saying we should use prestige instead of dominance, or that it’s better, or that dominance inevitably manifests in bullying. I just think the distinction makes discussions like the one you were having with Glenn a lot more fluid and comprehensible than trying to put both effects under the same ‘dominance’ term.

    I also don’t think there’s a clear tracking of the terms into AF/BB. Both dominance and prestige are kinda inflected with AF more than BB, frankly. They both make the person high-status – even if only to the people that find their contributions valuable (can be very subjective), or who find their dominance intimidating. BB is more of a practical measure of how many fiscal resources you’ve gathered. It doesn’t take status (though it helps), merely efficiency.

    As an aside, the article I quoted is a lot longer than that. And it begins in a way that’s kinda startling for a redpill man:

    ‘”After this,” says Morpheus to Neo in The Matrix, “there is no turning back.”

    ‘You take the blue pill — the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill — you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.’

    Today I’m offering a red pill (of sorts): an eye-opening account of social status. I won’t say there’s “no turning back” after reading this — but I’ve seen down the rabbit hole, and it’s indeed as deep as advertised….”

  55. Emily’s ovaries: “EMILY! Get off that damn internet and start having some babies before we dry up.”
    Emily: “I can’t have kids until I’ve fixed the internet and slayed the patriarchy. Daddy! Can I borrow the car tonight.”

  56. @Forge – Great stuff on prestige and dominance, it enriches the discussion. But I think that what’s missing from that analysis is submission – this is something that being dominant or having high prestige does not guarantee. Someone can dominate a social environment but not gain submission.

    Example: I was at a party about 6 months ago with family and their friends and this one guy drinks too much, and acts like an ass. He talked about ass-sex in front of my then 8 yr old niece, for example, to his brood-sow wife. I was asked to play guitar but he was one of those guys who kept making requests like I was a juke box and then started talking music with me – he’s one of those half-smart music junkies who has tons of details about bands that I simply don’t give a shit about. He was continuously rude and dominated the scene for about two hours.

    He was tolerated but nobody entered into his frame. Nobody submitted to him. I eventually shut him up by bowing up at one particularly rude comment and telling him, “You know I’m normally not this polite – you really need to get a grip on yourself.” But the point is, yes, he was dominant but nobody was submitting. The definition of dominance offered in your excerpt would surely put him in the socially dominant category. My point is so what? He’s a fucking asshole and nobody is buying what he’s selling.

    The reason submission is so sublime is because it’s voluntary. When my little fucktoy from the other night took the whole dick and mashed her nose into my belly doing so, without me grabbing her head, that’s submission. When they relax and enjoy being around you while you talk or do shit and just seem content, that’s submission. When they cede control of certain domains that I carve out – like money and legal issues and travel plans or mechanical stuff etc – that’s submission. Perfect example is driving. Does your woman sit back and just act like a passenger or does she tell you how to drive, where to park and how to get there non-stop? The latter category gets an immediate “talk” from me. I inform them that I’ve never had a serious wreck or hit another car (2 collisions with telephone polls when I was 17 and learning) and find my way around all the time without you. Tell me, why on earth do you think your role here is to ‘co-drive’? Sit back and be a passenger unless I ask for your advice.” One woman told me such talk made her wet…That’s submission.

    My point? Not all forms of social dominance are desirable to emulate or enact for a high value man who wants to behave intelligently in social situations.

  57. @Newly – Giggling like a school girl over here. Also, let me head off the “qualifying to Emily” that I will be accused of. No, I’m schooling her. We aren’t live – we are on a blog. There is no other way to do so other than straight talk. She hasn’t demonstrated abject cuntery yet, so I’ll give her a shot at either showing herself as a person who’s legit curious or a cunt. And she may be IB – I don’t care. Like I’ve said in the past. This is the only site on which I participate in the manosphere – I don’t spend much time in this world and will take someone apart if I feel like it. The second I’m done I rarely think about it again. But it’s fun to see the hamster run, right? The dialog on this thread is lively and interesting and Emily is fun to bat around a bit. I just enjoy hanging here and reading what Rollo says and yakking with you boys.

  58. I’m not a masochist.
    But if I played one online I’d probably first write a post telling the site owner to shut the fuck up, then proceed to insult everyone, then announce I was leaving forever, and come back immediately.

  59. @Scribblerg,

    Little Emi Foo Foo hoping through the Red Pill
    Spewing up illogic and bopping herself on the head.

    Down came the ovary fair and said, “Little Emi Foo Foo, I’ll give you just one more change to have kids, then I’m turning you into a cat lady.”

  60. “My point? Not all forms of social dominance are desirable to emulate or enact for a high value man who wants to behave intelligently in social situations.”

    I fully agree with this.

    But regarding insanity: In my opinion we tried schooling her already. But she doesn’t learn anything from it. All she does is playing asshole provocative game with us here. And she get’s people again and again.

  61. Blaximus – sounds like you work for a small shop. I really miss those days. I’m on a team of 6 other SI’s, and there are four teams. I work for a rather large, very corporate company so everything is by the book, with miles and miles of red tape. Shame about your SI buddy and the booze. The job doesn’t stress me out at all, but dealing with corporate BS may push me over the edge. I’d love to get back into IT security. My last gig was client/mobile security, but they moved my role to an overseas chair. Not outsourced as usual, but a full-time guy in our UK data center. After a few rounds of playing musical chairs with off-shoring, I got the damn paper and went into IT management. I don’t even see a data center floor anymore. 🙁

    I’m sure everyone else is tired of the nerdy crap. Just cool to run into someone here that gets what I do. I shouldn’t be surprised by the variety of talent here, but there it is!

  62. teddj4g,

    I get it. Btw, ( trying not to blow all anonymity ) I actually work for a fairly large multinational.

    It’s great that you feel no stress. This is important beyond words in this field. I dunno, I’ve always seen IT related pressure as longer lasting and more intense or unrelenting when that is the operational paradigm.

    I’m pretty stress free now. The company’s growing at a break neck pace right now but so far IT/Security is on top or it’s game.

    My last job was stress filled and in the end, I hated it. I worked for Big Pharma and I will NEVER do that again.

    Funny, the trend in IT was to make the jump to India a few years ago. It was all the rage. From a non-monetary standpoint, outsourcing is BULLSHIT. Sorry but you get what you pay for. My company toyed with the idea a decade ago, but it wouldn’t have been a smart intellectual move. An EVP floated the idea past me of going lights out in the datacenter and I told him it was doable but not advisable. Hey, if he wanted to trust 100 years of sensitive, confidential data to Mijab in Delhi and he was willing to stake his reputation and the company’s existence on such a move, I’d just write it off as a personal loss and go lay on the beach for 25 years.

    Okay, I agree with boring commenters with this stuff. I’m done.

    But it was cool, I agree.

  63. @Liz
    No, thats what someone who is argumentative by nature would do.

    Masochist:
    “a person who is gratified by degradation that is self-imposed or imposed by others.
    a person who finds pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc.”
    I would guess that red pill women, who hang around in support of men that constantly degrade, generalize and belittle their gender as a whole, possibly have masochistic tendencies.

    I could be wrong, though. After all, the hatred here is not directed towards you, but other women. As long as you agree with this crowd that most women are (insert degrading comment here here), they will insist that you are a special snowflake, unlike other women.

    So, basically, a masochist or an attention whore. Lemme know which one

  64. @scribble
    Yeah, well you do objectify women, and you should all take a spacecraft to mars, preferably one that malfunctions halfway.

    If you weren’t insinuating that the people here were all ‘male geniuses’ why comment about it at all? Yes, if thats true, that means there are more male geniuses, but there are also more male idiots. I see no reason to assume that you are one of the former. I was taught that those who brag about their wealth and intelligence (as you did for literally half your post) usually don’t have either.

    All the tech I use was invented by males who spent their time in labs, not males who spend their time online writing heinous things about women.

    Spare me your warnings.

    @Rollo
    I’m not IB, you can ask Larry from BGR since you clearly know each other. He knows me on social media.

    1. Compare…

      I would guess that red pill women, who hang around in support of men that constantly degrade, generalize and belittle their gender as a whole, possibly have masochistic tendencies.

      and contrast…

      I never said a word to you until the third time you attacked me, Dragonfly, You operate from a scarcity mentality, constantly trying to compete with other women for what you perceive to be limited male approval. I call it the pretty princess syndrome and there can only be one. I’ve never given a crap for such little girls games, nor am I the least bit concerned about what people think of me. However, there are other women you have hurt deeply and I don’t think that is right. Some are no longer blogging because of your actions and I think that is incredibly cruel on your part.

      Hmmmm,…

  65. I’d be surprised if Emanal isn’t IB. The resemblance is just too strong. What are the odds 2 people would write/think in the same silly assed way?

  66. Blaximus – I shouldn’t say I feel no stress, I’ve learned to embrace it rather than struggle against it. Red Pill helped a great deal, as did landing on a team with a few grizzled warriors that came up the ropes like I did.

    I probably should be far more stressed, but I don’t see the point. I certainly can’t do the job better if I’m mentally tapped out. Be the rock doesn’t just come in handy with the wife. 😉

  67. Lmfao..

    ” If you weren’t insinuating that the people here were all ‘male geniuses’ why comment about it at all? Yes, if thats true, that means there are more male geniuses, but there are also more male idiots. I see no reason to assume that you are one of the former. I was taught that those who brag about their wealth and intelligence (as you did for literally half your post) usually don’t have either.”

    I object!!

    I’m well off, I’m smart ( or at least I’ve become well off by fooling people into thinking I’m smart ) and I have a giant dick.

    That’s bragging Emily/IB.

    IB has a certain way of attacking. It’s bitchy and childlike.

    C’mon Emily, fess up. In the words of the philosopher Rodger Daltrey, ” Who the fuck are you? “.

  68. October 22nd, 2015 at 7:20 pm

    Ahahaha! Oh man, this IS gon be gud!

    http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/22/reverencing-ravishing-and-rollo/

    That was interesting. Good to see some sense being displayed. So if Emily was on BGR, will she now set the comment section aflame complaining about the treatment of women and the stupidity of men?

    And what about anal?

    Glad to see that, even from a biblical standpoint, the RP and what it teaches and proposes is pretty much accepted with only the smallest disagreement.

  69. Funny, if Scribbler (or any of us, and I’m not saying I wouldn’t) did take a one-way spaceship to Mars, he’d become a more famous man than IB could ever dream to have in her bed. Ah, the female-goal duality, it hurts!

    All the tech I use was invented by males who spent their time in labs, not males who spend their time online writing heinous things about women.

    You know, they do have general-use internet-connected computers in labs. It’s standard equipment. Hell, many electrical instruments now come with some standard version of windows on it. I could post to Rollo’s site from an old Agilent E8362C Network Analyzer sitting behind me while the data was coming in if I really wanted to… oh, did I say too much?

  70. “The “there’s the door” method of invoking fear in one’s wife” – My personal favorite. Interesting read.

  71. ” The FI is so ensconced in churchianity that TRP is a shock to the system that they have a real hard time with it.”

    And I find that amazing in it’s ignorance.

    Too bad that the FI has been so successful at bending even the ” church ” to it’s asinine will. In the end though, The Alpha and Omega is Red Pill all the way.

    Old school RP – Genesis

    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children,
    ** yet your desire shall be for your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.**”

    17 And to Adam he said,

    “**Because you have listened to the voice of your wife**,
    and have eaten of the tree
    of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
    cursed is the ground because of you;
    in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

  72. @Jeremy

    What software is this that you use? Being an engineer I like to keep myself abreast of stuff like that. It might be nice to see when people open old e-mails I’ve sent them.

    Not sure exactly what software G was using there, but I’m betting it’s something that inserts HTML and/or attaches a read receipt then watches for hits on the site the HTML points to. Every viewing would result in a pull from the site unless your email software is blocking external content. (Thunderbird blocks it by default. Most other clients including web mail systems do not, which is how advertisers can track if you’re reading their spam mails)

    I’m betting it’s not 100% reliable, but definitely “good enough” for large sample sizes (i.e. when trying to judge eyeballs on a large marketing campaign) and can work in the majority of cases you want to monitor interactions with just one person.

  73. “@Liz
    No, thats what someone who is argumentative by nature would do.”

    Fair enough, Ms Naturally Argumentative.

    “I could be wrong, though. After all, the hatred here is not directed towards you, but other women. As long as you agree with this crowd that most women are (insert degrading comment here here), they will insist that you are a special snowflake, unlike other women.
    So, basically, a masochist or an attention whore. Lemme know which one”

    I’m a very rare poster here, Emily. Women shouldn’t post here regularly, IMO….it’s a guy place.
    I peruse the sphere because I find the topics interesting. I must assume you do as well. There really aren’t a lot of places online for an honest and open discussion of these issues, so for that this can be a good forum.
    Most of the blogs I frequent are ipso facto “male” sites (military/politics/debate) because the subjects that interest me usually don’t interest many women. Gender politics is the one exception.
    What are you hoping to accomplish here? Perhaps you are working on your skill with imaginative pejoratives? If so, “attention whore” is mundane and overused.

  74. Yes Rollo, Insanity and I hold the same opinion about women who support misogyny. What a surprise.

    I must say I find your paranoia very amusing. But you can read on BGR that Dragonfly and I are, were, on good terms.

    Anyway, I disagree with BGR all the time, as in this case. I respect him, but he’s a protestant. I’m Catholic. I’m not a big fan of reinterpretation and revisionism of the Scripture.

    @Liz
    “…interesting. I must assume you do as well.”
    Yep. a group of sociopaths that aim to reverse 100 years of advancement in women’s rights is certainly ‘interesting.’
    “What are you hoping to accomplish here?”
    Blowing off steam.

  75. ” Anyway, I disagree with BGR all the time, as in this case. I respect him, but he’s a protestant. I’m Catholic. I’m not a big fan of reinterpretation and revisionism of the Scripture.”

    Translation: ” Anyway, I disagree with BGR all the time, as in this case and just about any other. I reject anything that tries to hold any woman accountable for anything. I respect him, but he’s a protestant. I’m Catholic, and in my mind my being from a different sect of the same faith gives me an easy out when I want to disagree with scripture that’s clear and right in front of my face. I’m not a big fan of reinterpretation and revisionism of the Scripture when it reinforces the message given by God for the roles between men and women. I like picking and choosing to suit my views.”

  76. ” Yep. a group of sociopaths that aim to reverse 100 years of advancement in women’s rights is certainly ‘interesting.’”

    fem·i·nist

    /ˈfemənəst/
    noun
    noun: feminist; plural noun: feminists
    1. a person who supports feminism.

    adjective
    adjective: feminist

    1. of, relating to, or supporting feminism.
    “feminist literature”

  77. “I’m Catholic. I’m not a big fan of reinterpretation and revisionism of the Scripture.”

    Oooooooh, the irony.

  78. The irony?
    We believe in Tradition. Most of our Church’s teachings have not changed for centuries because it is grounded in the Sacred Tradition taught to us by the apostles. Protestants are the ones who read what they want in the scripture.

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