Red Pill Parenting – Part II

Father-Son1

What I’m about to detail here will be a revolutionary act; I’m going to give men some prescriptive advice on how I believe they should go about raising their children from a Red Pill perspective. As most of my readers know I do my best to provide observations and connect dots, from there I expect men (and women) to form their own takes on what I’m seeing and either challenge those observations or develop some actionable practice that best suits their own circumstances.

I’ll be breaking that protocol here, but the premise still applies; what I think might be universally applicable to raising and mentoring the next generation may need to be modified for what your experience and circumstances dictate.

That said, the very idea that I would inform or instruct men (and by association women) on how I think a healthier, more durable generation of men might be developed in a Red Pill awareness is tantamount to being a hate crime today. My suggesting that boys and girls would benefit greatly from a Red Pill aware father is a frightening, seditionary act in a feminine-primary social order.

As things stand on a societal level now, just the mention of Red Pill truths in casual conversation will engender either ridicule or hostility. As Red Pill awareness spreads it will be considered subversive, particularly in a social order founded on the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primary social prioritization.

I don’t have too much positive to say about Roosh these days, but one thing I had to agree with was his recent assessment of how it’s necessary for men to meet in secret gatherings and maintain (as best as possible) a state of constant anonymity if they wish to discuss anything counter to feminine-primary social doctrine. Main stream media in feminine-primary society will characterize this need for anonymity as indicative of cowardice or a lack of conviction; bitter men just contenting themselves in their private anger and poisoning the minds of whomever will listen to them.

They need this characterization for now because men have something to lose. They fear having their bread taken away from them – the same bread that feminine-primary society expects men to provide the very women who would use it to extort a desired complacency from men. Cowardice is rooted in the fear of having something to lose. Once men become largely indifferent to that bread being forthcoming, that’s either when they snap, or that’s when they start a revolution.

ScribblerG (a.k.a. Glenn) had a good reminder for men in the last thread:

Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. At best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself.

I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later, wondering if my daughter would ever realize all I sacrificed to provide for her and her mom? I’d wonder if she’d ever get that I sacrificed being as close to her as her mother is to her for her wellbeing? That her closeness with her mom as a result of having a stay at home mom until she was 5 was a consequence of my efforts, not her Mom’s?

Guess what – nobody wants to hear it. Nobody gives a shit what sacrifices you make to be a good father and provider – it’s all about Mom. It’s all about the kids. Dad’s are at best seen as second best Moms most of the time. And even when we are “in charge”, we can be dismissed as superfluous in myriad ways.

Many men adapt by becoming second mothers and wives in the household – and the entire culture encourages this. Try being a traditional male at parent teacher night or at the pre-school or even the Boy Scout troop…Fatherhood and a family is not what it once was either. Trust me, learn from my experience. Your kids will very likely not appreciate all you’ve done for them.

Of course, I excuse all the fundo-christian-demi-god-uber-alpha-ripped-11 inch cock-men of steel™ here from this commentary. For you guys, it’s 1956 and your life is like Wally and the Beav…

Just like men subscribe to two sets of books – old and new social rule sets that contradict the other – I think our ideas of marriage fall into this same contradiction. When marriage was a social contract and not so much a legal one involving the state, the old set of books applied well to that institution. This old set of rules about marriage and what men could expect from that largely socially-enforced institution worked well and in a complementary paradigm. From the Little House on the Prairie days up to the post-war era, the first set of books worked well with regard to marriage and fatherhood.

After the sexual revolution, the second set of books took social preeminence. Optimizing Hypergamy and all of the social and legal paradigms that make it the foundation of our present social order took priority. Yet, both men and women still cling to the old order, the first set of rules when it comes to a man’s role as a husband and a father, and simultaneously expect him to adopt and promote the feminine-primary interests of the new feminine-primary order.

Fathers are expected to follow the edicts of conventional masculinity with regards to their provisioning for a family, but are also expected to adopt, embrace and internalize their popularized role of being superfluous, ridiculous or even angry and abusively resistant to the second set of rules.

In other words, the expectation is that he should  be happy in his sacrificial role of provider, happy in his lack of appreciation for it or his presence, and happy to have the ‘village’ of society raise his children into the next crop of confused, frustrated adults while he’s doing it. He should be happy in his presence being devalued, but be held responsible for his lack of presence that his sacrifices demands.

Oh, and he should also feel a sense of smug pride when he see another man being pilloried for the same lack of his superfluous presence in his family’s life.

Raising Kids

I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.

You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them. Your presence is only as superfluous as you allow it to be. While you will never be appreciated for it in any measurable sense, you will be liable for it, so my advice is to make the most of it in a Red Pill respect. Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order. If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding.

Understand now, the Feminine Imperative wants you to be despondent about your role.

Understand this, your presence, your influence, will only be as valuable or as appreciated as you are willing to make it to yourself. Your Red Pill aware influence in your kids’ lives needs to matter to you first, because it will never be appreciated in your time, and in fact will be actively, hostilely, be resisted by a world saturated in feminine-primacy.

Being a mother and birthing a child is a constantly lauded position today. By virtue of being a mother, women are rewarded and respected in society. Men must add fatherhood to their burden of performance just to avoid the societal default of being vilified.

The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.

In Preventive Medicine I detail part of our present feminine-primary conditioning and how the imperative raises boys to be Betas and girls to be caricatures of Strong Independent Women®. Part of this was based on the essay Teach Your Children Well and the early ages at which this begins. The first, most primary truth you need to accept as a father is that if you don’t teach your children Red Pill truths there is an entire western(izing) world that is already established to raise them in your absence.

‘The Village’ will raise your kids if you don’t. You will be resisted, you will be ridiculed, you will be accused of every thought-crime to the point of being dragged away to jail in your imparting Red Pill awareness (in the future I expect it to be equated with child abuse). The Village will teach your boys from the most impressionable ages (5 years old) to loath their maleness, to feel shame for being less perfect than girls and to want to remake their gender-identity more like girls.

The Village will raise your daughters to perpetuate the same cycle that devalues conventional masculinity, the same cycle that considers men’s presence as superfluous and their sacrifices as granted expectations. It will raise your daughters to over-inflate their sense of worth with unearned confidence at the expense of boys as their foils. It will teach them to openly embrace Hypergamy as their highest authority and to disrespect anything resembling masculinity as more than some silly anachronism.

The good news is that for all of these efforts in social engineering, the Feminine Imperative is still confounded by basic biology and the psychological firmware evolved into us over millennia. That basic root reality is your greatest advantage as a father.

Raising Boys

I’m often asked when I believe would be the best time to introduce a boy to the Red Pill. A lot of guys with teenage sons want to hand them a copy of The Rational Male before they hit 18, or maybe when they’re 15, some even say 12 is really a good time. While it’s flattering for me to hear men tell me how they gave their teenage sons a copy of my book, I have to think that this is too late.

I’ve been a father to a teenage daughter for a while now and in my 20’s I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.

By the time that kid is 10 they’ve already internalized the stereotypes and social conditioning of the Blue Pill and they will start parroting these memes and behaving and believing in accordance with that conditioning. By the time they are in their tweens and beginning to socially interact with the opposite sex, the Blue Pill feminine-primary conditioning will be evident to any man with a Red Pill lens to hear and see it. That Blue Pill internalized ideology will seem natural and logical to them even though they couldn’t tell you how they came to their formative beliefs.

The time to start exemplifying Red Pill awareness in a parental capacity is before you even have kids. As I detailed in the first of these posts, an internalized Game that results from strong Red Pill awareness and a positive, dominant Frame control are imperative before you even consider monogamy. That Frame becomes the foundation for your parenting when your children come along.

I realize this isn’t exactly helpful for men who came to Red Pill awareness after their kids were in their teens, but it needs to be addressed for men considering becoming a father. Ideally you want to impart that same Red Pill awareness during a boy’s formative years. Children completely lack the capacity for abstract thought until their brains fully form and they learn to develop it. The age of 5 is the time when kids are most impressionable and learn the most, but they do so by watching behavior. So it’s imperative for a Red Pill father to demonstrate positive, conventional masculinity during these years.

Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.

Within this male-space your son needs to learn about his eventual burden of performance.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked. This is important because it not only teaches him to value his masculinity, but also to accept the responsibilities of his burden of performance.

Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.

He needs to learn that men and women are different and only deserving of earned respect, not a default respect granted to the female sex. Eventually he needs to learn to accept his own dominance and mastery in a world that will tell him his sex is a scourge on society.

Your presence in his life is an absolute necessity if you are to thwart the efforts of fem-centrism. I was asked about Red Pill fathering in my last Christian McQueen interview and my first inclination was to say do things with your son. Even if that’s playing chess, being the man, his model for masculinity is vitally important and to impart this to him you need to have a mutual purpose. As I’ve written before, women talk, men do. Men get together socially with a purpose, an action, a hobby, a sport, a creative endeavor, etc. and then they communicate while working towards that purpose.

Your son must learn this from a very early age, particularly when he’s likely to be forced into feminine-primary social structures and conditioned to communicate like girls do in school as well as in popular media. One of the tragedies of our age is a generation of Blue Pill men raising their sons to adopt feminine-primary communication preferences because they themselves had no experience with conventional masculinity. They can’t teach what they don’t understand.

Demonstrate, do not explicate is true of dealing with women, but it is also an imperative of Red Pill parenting. Your son (and daughter) needs to see his mother’s deference to your dominant Frame and beneficent authority. He needs to understand on a rudimentary level that his mother responds to your positively masculine Frame. Again this is imperative since your kids will see a much different narrative being displayed in popular culture and their schooling.

Show him how a man presents himself, how a man reacts to a threat, how a man commands a dog, how a man interacts with, and helps, other men he values. Do not think that you’ll start teaching him Red Pill awareness when he’s old enough to understand it. By then it’s too late, he’s resistant to it and thinks his Beta Game is more appropriate. Your son will follow your lead, but that must start from day one, not age 12. I have a good friend now who’s 16 year old son is literally following the same path his Beta father; he’s moved in with his estranged ex wife because he was closer to his ONEitis girlfriend. Now she’s bailed on him and he’s stuck with his neurotic mother.

The consequences of a Blue Pill conditioned mindset also start early. I’ve seen 10 year old boys despondent over not having a girlfriend. I’ve counseled a girl who’s former teenage boyfriend stabbed and killed her new boyfriend 32 times because she was his ONE. They get ONEitis because they are taught to be predisposed to it.

As your son moves into his teenage years that connection you began in his formative years should strengthen. You can begin to introduce him to Red Pill awareness, but in all likelihood you’ll notice him using his own Red Pill lens when it comes to dealing with girls. His grasping the fundaments of women’s dualistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy and how this will be used against him in the future is something imperative that he learns later.

This is the time to reinforce that Red Pill sensitivity and capitalize on his own awareness by introducing him to Red Pill ideas he wasn’t aware of. Bluntly, overtly declaring Red Pill truths might make sense to you, but plucking out bits of his own Red Pill observations and expanding on them in his teen years will probably be received better and more naturally.

One thing I know about teenage boys and girls is that if you try to tell them something profound they roll their eyes and blow you off, but if you wait for the right moment to let them come to that thing you want them to learn on their own then they’re receptive to it. Your demonstrating Red Pill awareness doesn’t stop when they’re teens.

Raising Girls

Much of what I’ve outlined for raising boys would cross over into raising a daughter, however there are some differences in approach. Exemplifying a Red Pill ideal, and demonstrations of positive, dominantly masculine Frame control are still the highest priority, but more so is the modeled behavior of the girl’s mother toward you and that Frame. If your wife resists, ridicules or mocks your Frame, this is the lesson your daughter will be taught about masculinity. You must model her perceptions of masculinity while your wife models the aspects of femininity – for better or worse.

A lot of how you approach raising a daughter can be based on your Red Pill understanding of how to deal with women, and based on much of the same basic gender-complementary foundations. The same Game principles you would use with women are actually founded on behavior sets that little girls learn and enjoy while they’re growing up. Amused Mastery is a prime example of this.

You will notice that root level Hypergamy manifests itself in girls at a very young age. In Warren Farrell’s book, Why Men Are The Way They Are he notes that girls as young as 7 already have a a definition of the (celebrity) “boys they’d like to kiss and the boys they’d like to marry.” No doubt girls’ acculturation influences their preferences, but the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks archetypes are part of their mental firmware.

As a father, your primary role will be one of modeling the provider security seeking aspect of the Hypergamous equation. While that comfort and control is necessary it tends to be a trap for most Betas. The challenge most Beta fathers fail at is embracing and owning the very necessary Alpha / Dominant role that makes up the other side of that equation.

The challenge is exemplifying Amused Mastery with your daughter, but in such a way that it balances Alpha dominance and control with rapport, security and comfort. In my post Myth of the Good Guy I make the case that adult women don’t really look for this balance in the same man. Alphas are for fucking, Betas are for long term security, and men who think they can embody both are neither sought after nor really believable. The root of this AF/BB mental separation of Hypergamous purpose-specific men can be traced back to the impression of masculinity that woman’s father set for her in her formative years.

Lean too far toward Alpha dominance and you become the asshole abuser who domineered poor mom while she was growing up. Lean too far to the Beta, permissive, passive and feminine side of the spectrum and the future men in her life will be colored by your deferring to the feminine as authority – thus placing her in the role of having to create the security she never expects men to have a real command of.

The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself. The challenge of raising a girl is embodying the dominant masculine man you will eventually be proud to call your son in law. Your daughter needs to be able to identify that guy by comparing him to the masculine role you set for her.

Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.

If you were uncomfortable experimenting with Red Pill concepts while you were single, you’ll be even more so in raising a daughter. The most important impression you need to leave her with is that men and women are different, but complementary to the other. She needs to know that your masculine dominance is beneficial to both her and her mother, and your personal mastery of you conditions and environment as an aid to her and the family. She needs to understand that girls and women are, sometimes, excluded from male-spaces, particularly if you also have a son. In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.

 

504 comments

  1. Maybe you should be prescriptive more often? Both YaReally and Andy were right in the last thread how an at best detailed description of “I did that and it worked”, personal experience, is in fact often better than some abstract theory with all it’s logic. It’s like demonstrate, not explicate.

  2. And so, once again with feeling:

    A Dad is not a Mom. Too many Dads have been conditioned and told and lectured and even ordered by judges to just be Mom #2. At which they will suck. Acid test: when your child is old enough to disobey, do you discipline? Be firm? Bark if need be? Can you do it? Now: How does Mom react to that? If she doesn’t try to negate or neutralize you you’re not in bad shape. If she contradicts or countermands, especially in your presence, then you’d better be working on putting a proper Frame in place ASAP as it will never happen later.

    One thing the Village fails at is explaining to men WHY they should be Dads at all, let alone try to be good Dads if they are going to roll those dice. At best it is couched as some kind of obligation to “society” or “the nation” or “the woman who gifted you your children.”

    There is a DUTY, but it is not to those things. It is a duty to the child. Your duty. If you don’t think you can do it, or you surmise you are not going to be allowed, by your spouse, by your Village, whatever, wear the jimmy hat, get the snip, and never procreate.

    For all the talk of self-fulfillment, the one thing I never see any Modern Advice Sage acknowledge is parents’ duty to the child. Except as a false flag to shame and compel obedience.

  3. Rollo, what an excellent walk back you did in describing the early approach to red pill parenting (well before entering into a LTR with the mother) rather than walking on egg shells until the children “can handle it”.

    @ LH

    “It’s kinda difficult: The discussion would surely be better if it were about advancing the topics of interest and not only fights for hierarchies and ego-investments. But on the other hand it is also important we all (re-)connect to our masculine strengths and live them, for which this is also a playground.”

    “Maybe you should be prescriptive more often? Both YaReally and Andy were right in the last thread how an at best detailed description of “I did that and it worked”, personal experience, is in fact often better than some abstract theory with all it’s logic. It’s like demonstrate, not explicate.”

    The discussion is fine. You are merely describing dichotomies that are complementary. Don’t be so impatient that you cannot accept both. The space of TRM is 99% full and the other 1% is empty. I hate to keep sniping. I’m not being negative. Nothing I have seen here for the past year and a half on TRM has been anything other than positive and inspiring for me (a judgmental idealist). I know it’s hard. But the script you write for yourself can be a good one. The well of ideas to draw from certainly is.

  4. Thanks for another great post Rollo. This one in particular hits home with me.

    I became RP aware when my son was 8 and daughter 12. Thankfully I’ve now had almost 2 years to demonstrate RP behaviors to them both after years of servitude to the FI.

    “”In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.””

    This is so true.

    Even though I’m now not present everyday in their lives, (every 2nd weekend dad) at times I become the ‘masculine umpire’ when my kids inevitably get into arguments and squabbles.

    Now, I’m at a very good level of amused mastery with my 14 y/o daughter which is great. And I think this is partly due to the way I handle the debates she has with both me and her 10 year old brother.

    Her debate and argumentative style is typically mostly based from an solipsistic assumed feminine primacy position and based on emotions and feels as opposed to logic and rationale.

    So regardless of the nature of the debate,argument, or fight, I consistently ram home red pills truths and control the frame that my son now is starting to pick up on as an added bonus.

    My son is unfortunately still on the beta side of the equation of where I think he should be. This I put down to my own former blue pillness, a harpy bitch of a mother, a village run by domineering soccer / coffee club / yoga moms, beta as fuck dads, a school system run by the FI that mollycoddles and rewards being average, and other feminine primacy social conventions relentlessly telling him he isn’t valued as a boy.

    I’ve tried to drop in some RP nuggets of gold to him, but disturbingly he is already showing signs of rejecting those truths (maybe just to be different from dad as kids do).

    So I’m making a concerted effort lately in pumping up his self worth, self esteem (usually in front of his sister), doing guy stuff, making him feel good to be a boy, kicking the ball around with him, getting very involved in his sport, having some rough and tumble play fights and helping him tease and argue his sister better.

    He would just sink into the blue pill abyss if left to The Village.

  5. “Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses.”

    I have girls, so I’m around parents of other girls too.

    The men worship their daughters. Literally worship. She can do no wrong, she is going to be a successful ‘whatever’ when she grows up, and she’ll have kids and a wonderful husband that gives her everything she wants.

    Girl trips and falls? They come running. Girl is mad at someone? It’s that kids fault. Their girl does wrong? She’s independent and strong-willed!

    Barf.

    Great post.

    I said in the previous post about vetting that the best thing for a red pill man to do if his wife will not fall into his frame is divorce….for the kids. It does not do the kids any good to see a mother disrespect their father.

    I assume one day I will be the “asshole that left their mom” though.

  6. Do any of you fathers have good feedback on promoting femininity and complementari-ness in their daughters?

    My daughter is 23 and seems to accept my assertion that it is a valuable trait (even if a foreign concept) and will take it under advisement.

  7. ” Do any of you fathers have good feedback on promoting femininity and complementari-ness in their daughters?”

    @SJF

    I can say that raising my 2 daughters has been extremely rewarding.

    I’ve never encountered any problems while providing a masculine model for them, or while helping them to understand the importance of femininity.

    Rollo is 100% correct in that society is teaching a completely different program to boys and girls alike, but one thing I’ve been uncompromising on. is that I will never tolerate any ” outside ” influences being brought into the home I provide. So now that my oldest is 30 (…I’m old ) and my youngest is 15, I still reinforce the teachings that I’ve been giving them from birth.

    My 15 year old is very feminine and well balanced. I’ve figured out that raising her required more of my time and influence than my oldest daughter, because times have changed so drastically. She’s bombarded by the FI with all of the gayness, empowered woman , equality between the sexes bullshit, and I’ve made my positions and expectations very clear.

    I admit that I was braced for the ” teen rebellion ” that I’ve always been warned about, but it’s failed to materialize.

    I’ve been braced for a battle against hostile feminist forces, but ( so far at least ) those forces hold little to no sway in my girl’s lives.

    They clean, wash and *gasp* cook because that’s what I expect and it’s the model that’s been provided for them by their mothers.

    Re: The Princess Syndrome – ( lmao ) I told both my girls that they were MY princesses. I also told them that when they were out in the world, they weren’t princesses to anyone else, ever. In the world they weren’t ” special ” or automatically deserving of anything just because they were female. I was the ONLY man that was RESPONSIBLE for automatic provision.

    I think that because I made it a strong point to be very active in their lives from birth, it’s made a huge difference. I have acquaintances that automatically acquiesce most duties in rearing girls to the mother. I’ve never been agreeable with that method because it’s my duty to set the standard for what a man is supposed to be in her mind. So I’ve stayed an active participant.

    I’ve been accused of being too blunt and a little harsh at times. I’ll accept that label. I’ve never had a problem talking to, or explaining my take on life’s issues with my kids or god-kids.

    It has been great.

    It also keeps me sharp and serves to turbocharge the RP within.

  8. Oh, an aside- Rollo’s mentioned this before also: my 15 yo is starting to date. Her boyfriend is a straight A student and high school star soccer player. The guy is showing massive amounts of beta already.

    I watch the 2 of them interact and I can already see the frustration in my daughter. She wants him to LEAD. He doesn’t know how.

    I tell her all the time that she will run into a lot of that because ” men ” have changed.

    I counsel her to slow down and take her time because a man like her dad will be harder to find. I also tell her to not be a bitch to guys that don’t exhibit what she’s looking for. : )

    When she’s a little older, that talk will change and get more detailed. I believe in a father’s input into dating and the like.

  9. That sounds great Blaximus.

    I couldn’t help but think about your good previously reported experiences (in having extended family men influences in your upbringing) as I read through Rollo’s essay. And look you you turned out as a man. (Pretty damn good in my assessment.)

  10. Hey thanks SJF,

    Man, I cannot tell you how thankful I am that I had so many male influences growing up. I firmly believe it kept me out of serious trouble and made coping with the hard realities of living much easier.

    The voices and teachings ( along with the dirty jokes ) of the men in my formative years still ring in my ears even now.

    I always thought my dad was a great man, but not until years later did I really appreciate just how great he is.

    Okay, I must have gotten something in my eye talking about this…..

  11. You should pull him aside and give him some tips. We all know they probably won’t last, but you could give him some tips. If he’s beta, he might listen to you out of fear, and you could coach him some.

    On down the road. Your daughter will have someone else, and you’ll have a Daniel-son to a Miagi. You never know, you might be an old man one day and need help and Daniel-son might be there because he would view you as a superior man and give a helping hand to the old man who stepped in when no one else would & helped him be masculine.

    I’ve stepped in and helped a boy with my niece. It helped some, but he went back into a submissive frame. They broke up and 2 years later, which was about two months ago, and we talked. It was a mentor thing. I talked to him about learning perspective. I should him this blog, Chateau’s, and Dalrock’s blog. He messaged me on Facebook and he told me he bought Rollo’s book and I suggested he get Jack Donovan’s too. He’s saving up for a RSD weekend boot camp. He wants me to come into town when I’m available and go approaching. Over the past 2 years he’s seen 2 girls I dated(Jennifer Connelly clone & a gorgeous ginger) and I have a “rep” back home. He wants to learn more of pick up skills. He’s seen how it helps him not only with women but men in his personal and college/career life. It’s kinda weird. I’m like the “de-facto” male voice in his life now. His dad is such a bitch. He has 3 sisters, and he’s the youngest. A reforming momma’ boy, but he’s trying. It’s his freshman year in college and he has a killer job repairing hard drives for a local computer company in town. He will be something in the future for sure.

  12. benfromtexas

    ” You should pull him aside and give him some tips. We all know they probably won’t last, but you could give him some tips. If he’s beta, he might listen to you out of fear, and you could coach him some.”

    Lol, I’ve not gotten to the point where I’m willing to tell a young man how to date my daughter. I get your drift though.

    Right now dude is a bit intimidated by me. I don’t think I’m intimidating… when he comes to the house, my wife and stepdaughter fawn over him and joke and kid around with him. Let’s just say my demeanor is markedly different.

    At this point I’m too old to take on a guy as far as becoming a man and RP awareness. I have a 4 year old little boy, the son of one of my goddaughters around all of the time, his dad is hopelessly BP. I wish I had the energy and time to help guide the child, but at 4 it’s too long term of a commitment. We’ll see how it shakes out.

    Mentoring is crucially important. I heavily mentored 2 of my nephews because their dads seemed to be lacking in attention and time. After helping raise ( for the most part ) my half dozen goddaughters I’m kinda spent. They are 19-27 years old now and I came into their lives while they all were toddlers.

    ….so I’m taking a break.

  13. ” Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.”

    I once heard this exchange between my daughters ( oldest now lives in L.A. ) Daughter 1- Lol, yeah living with Dad is like living with a lion in the house…
    Daughter 2 – It’s more like a Bear. Sometimes it’s a teddy bear, most times it’s a Grizzly.
    Daughter 1- Yeah, true. But it’s a nice Grizzly.

    Because I have seen the darker side of human existence I had a sense of urgency with regards to raising my daughters to ensure I didn’t raise strippers or crackwhores because I’ve seen girls I was familiar with become both.

    I’ve never had a problem with dominance and my daughters. I wasn’t abusive or overbearing, but clearly dominant. Like the cliché says ” it’s for your own good”.

  14. @Rollo – Wow, what a great set of recommendations and insights. I’m also humbled you used one of my comments, I’m not sure why, but it makes me want to take it even more seriously. A few thoughts:

    – You are so right that the only appreciation you will get as a father is internal, from your own sense of yourself. My question for everyone here? Is that enough? I finally cracked when my daughter was 24. At some point I needed a payback, some respect, some appreciation. We are not machines and we are social. While I think your observation is spot on, it’s a very painful, close at hand topic for me. Of course I was dealing with parental alienation so it’s very different than what men still in marriages deal with.

    – Male time and some kind of rituals, so spot on. I intentionally spend time with my 6 year old nephew as often as I can, one on one or with him and his Dad. I want him to get what it means to be a man. So far he’s doing well but I can see the entire world conspiring to crush his incredibly lively, defiant spirit. I particularly like the idea of “right of passage” into manhood. Many cultures have had this in the past but today we’ve got nothing. How sad for us.

    I’m left in tears thinking about all this, it’s just so fucking sad. I have little hope for our once great society.

  15. @scribblerg

    “.. You are so right that the only appreciation you will get as a father is internal, from your own sense of yourself. My question for everyone here? Is that enough?”

    I don’t think I ever heard my father use the word ” appreciation ” referring to himself or his expectations.

    Yes, my appreciation is internal. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by expressions of appreciation from my girls ( even goddaughters ), but by the time I was 30 ( became a dad at 24 ) I figured out that it wasn’t about my family being outwardly appreciative so I stopped looking for it, except during my vicious BP phase. Once I regained my correct senses, I just don’t think about it anymore.

  16. @Blax – Dude, I love your commentary. It’s so rich and real, thanks. You’ve mentioned numerous times about male role models and I think so much of how you become a man has to do with your early experiences. Mine were very different.

    My Dad was a terrifying maniac who I literally thought might kill me and did life threatening things to me at least twice. I grew up watching him beat my two older brothers, one particularly mercilessly and I knew that was what was coming for me. I remember the night he stabbed my brother with a fork in the arm at the dinner table, it was like, “He did it, he finally did it. He’s going to fucking kill us” in my mind.

    My Mom was my refuge. But she died when I was 11. I remember coming out of a blackout of hysterical grief sometime after first learning of her death with the first clear thought in my head, “Oh my God, who is going to protect me now?” My older brothers were no picnic either. They routinely tortured me and did things like grab me by my hands and feet and try to “stretch” me to get me to grow faster. They were also kind in turns, but still, the whole goal was to survive the prison camp that was our household. Nobody got out intact or was any kind of role model for anything. We had survival skills, not living skills.

    I had a couple of uncles who were okay, but one was a huge drunk. The other was quite a man, I’ve spoken about him before here. But we were distant and he hated my father, as much as he tried not to show it. My point? I had few, if any, strong men in my life who were kind to me. There were two male teachers in high school who tried to take me under their wing and I latched onto them, but still.

    As a result, women became everything to me. My mom died giving birth to my younger sister and I cared for her as an infant and became a surrogate father to her as she grew up. I saw my role as service towards her, and my other sisters as well (two step sisters, ex now, and one whole and a half sister). Serving and protecting and being there for women is what I learned from all that.

    I used to hear guys say, “treat ’em like shit and they stay around” and get outraged. I thought guys who cheated on their girlfriends or wives were scum and felt my own sexual desires were low and dirty and wrong. Irish Catholic upbringing and all that…

    I only began to wake up after my divorce at age 30. My SMV had skyrocketed and I was also naturally dominant as a reaction to all my early abuse turned into a huge defiance as I grew up. My motto? You fuck with me and I rip your throat out, no matter what. I decided that I would take no shit from those I didn’t have to and once done with my Dad at 17 after telling him to never touch me again or I’d kill him – which he knew I meant – this dominance and feistiness came to be my way of being.

    But I really knew nothing of how to be a man consciously until 2 or so years ago. I never embraced my masculinity, I fought it. I thought my impulses were wrong and to be leashed and changed and shamed. It was existential hell. Today I embrace my masculinity unabashedly. My sexual desires are primary and there is no shame. My aggression – this is the funny part – has lessened. I use it more wisely and strategically. I still take no shit but now am not ashamed of it. I feel like a unified person.

    Not sure why I had to share all of this, I’m just feeling very emotional from this post. Something about how important our upbringing/ecology is to being a man I guess, and seeing every more clearly how i got where I am. Wow.

    Thank you Rollo for what you do here, it’s made my life worth living again.

  17. My son is 6. The FI indoctrination is already full swing. Today he was reading a story. In it, Merlin is now the bad guy and Morgan Le Fay is the hero. Another had Goldie Locks break into the bears house and she becomes best friends with baby bear, who naturally does what ever she tells him to. It’s really horific.

    I’ve started teaching my son about frame maintenance. Since he is pre-sexual, I simply teach him that nobody should disturb his frame. I’m keeping it very generic for the moment. I’m trying to teach him to be a rock. I’ll work the gender stuff in at a later date.

  18. @scribblerg

    Wow. I wish I had something prophetic to say to all that you’ve typed.

    … makes me ” get something in my eye ” yet again.

    Some men have to go through absolute hell in life, but fire tempers steel. To survive and eventually thrive makes one more alive in many respects.

    Thank you –

  19. Relevant to child rearing, the single greatest resource I’ve ever seen is a small (very small and short) book called “To Train Up A Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl. It’s so good that it will cause problems for you and I say that because it caused problems for me.

    The central theme of the book (there are several others, “No Greater Joy” volumes I, II, and III that are the gist of question and answer correspondence) is the process of raising a child involves three things: training, discipline and tying heart-strings. It’s a three-legged stool that requires all three supports. Most people only think of discipline, but there is a tremendous difference between training and discipline. The tying heart-strings brings it all together. The book is written by Christians, but the techniques are not religious.

    (If it means anything, these people are hated, and I mean truly hated by feminists. Yes, they’re fundamentalist Christians, but the books are about child rearing, not religious indoctrination.)

    What Rollo has discussed in this post is a specific form of training for later in the child’s life, while the techniques taught in “To Train Up A Child” are for the child from age 1-3. I’ve raised more than six and we had happy, well-behaved, obedient children who were content to play by themselves for hours without the input of parents or electronic devices. This requires the complete buy-in by your wife or she’ll be extremely frustrated that the children cheerfully obey dad but won’t obey her. If she won’t get with the program, they’ll develop contempt for her as they grow older.

    I come from a large family and we used to have family reunions when my parents were alive and the grandchildren were small(ish). The children of my siblings ranged from OK to disobedient brats in terms of behavior. The difference in behavior between my children and theirs caused more than a little embarrassment and sometimes hostility. At one reunion my parents pulled me and my wife aside to explain what the problem was. It wasn’t that our children were well behaved and obedient, which emphasized the disobedience of my siblings children, it was that after watching my children respond to me immediately, their cousins began to do the same. They’d ignore their parents but if I told them to do something they did it, immediately.

    The key to obedience in children is 100% consistency. My wife wasn’t always consistent in some things (she had a very permissive upbringing) but there were a couple of areas in which she was 100% committed to consistency. One example: we lived in the country and I have a lot of guns. Downstairs there was literally a gun (at least one) in almost every room. The rule in my house is every gun is always loaded (usually with an empty chamber, but a full magazine). My wife would levitate off a sickbed if the children even looked too long at one of the weapons. It didn’t take long before the children disciplined themselves on that issue and they wouldn’t even get close to a weapon. Later, when I taught them to shoot, they still wouldn’t touch the weapons without permission.

    Children learn by observation, but you’d be surprised at how much they listen as well. The odd comments and the things you do as the children grow up will be remembered long after you’ve forgotten making them, but you don’t get to choose what strikes them as important or what they’ll remember.

    Here’s an experiment for you: Think back on your childhood and remember a time you were with your dad and he did something for you or with you and you felt really special and loved. Or maybe he said something really profound that had a significant effect on you later in life. If you’re dad is still alive, pick up the phone and call him. Tell him about it and ask him if he remembers. Over 99 times out of a hundred he won’t.

    This is part of the feminist lie of “quality time” that guides the idea of visitation after divorce. Quality time is a function of quantity time and it is impossible to schedule “quality time” because quality time is the confluence of a lot of factors, most of which have to do with the father and child both being in the right place at the right time under the right conditions (mental, emotional, etc.). The child, be it boy or girl, is like a baby bird in the nest. When they have a specific need the head comes up and they’re looking for dad. If dad isn’t there, the head goes back down. Over time, the head stops coming up. In a sense, all a woman has to do to alienate the children from their father is separate him from his children.

  20. “Daughters get to date after they are no longer dependent on Dad. Otherwise, they should be corralled.”

    Date?
    Judging from the evidence dragged home, guys are “dating” themselves with new pairs of trainers. Not even the money for one movie date.

  21. “.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked.”

    I cannot stress how vital this is for a boy to successfully transition into manhood. Many young men wander aimlessly and confused for years because they’re left utterly uncertainty as to when they become men, i.e. when they break off from their parents and assume full responsibility and authority for themselves.

    Initiation rituals are a fundamental aspect of the male experience, and if a boy’s father or other adult men in their life won’t provide it, boys will try to create them on their own. But they cannot initiate themselves into manhood. Only a man can “officiate” a boy’s passage into manhood.

  22. @Toad

    Does the book really advocate punishing 6 month olds with corporal punishment like the reviews indicate?

  23. @ITTO

    NO. It doesn’t. You can read reviews by people who hate the Pearls and they aren’t pretty, but there are some good reviews as well. The Pearls have actually been dragged into court to testify as to what they teach and they’ve never been discredited. Debi Pearl wrote a book called “Created To Be His Helpmeet” that is the patriarchal wife’s guide to being a good wife and mother, a book that explains exactly what the Bible says about being a wife. It’s radically anti-feminist. So, read the reviews with a grain of salt because these people are hated by feminists and SJW’s.

    However, I’m not sure what you mean by corporal punishment. What the Pearls advocate is using something like a toilet supply line (plastic) that is really light and all it does is sting. They specifically tell parents not to use their hand (way too much mass) because of the danger of causing spinal problems. For young ones, a few light swats stings and gets their attention, which is all that’s needed. But, some don’t comprehend what a young child could do to deserve punishment.

    When they’re about a year old (can walk) the training starts, or perhaps before, when they’re crawling well. Let the child get playing or doing something, then call them to you. They should obey. If they don’t, give them a couple of strokes where they are and go back where you were and repeat the process until the child obeys. This starts when they’re really young, around a year old. You want the child to be in the habit of obedience from a very young age. Keep in mind, this is exactly what you do with a puppy. As the children get older you give them more complex commands and again, they have the choice to obey or disobey. This is what I mean by the difference between training and discipline- most parents wait until the child misbehaves then want to discipline the child, but they don’t train their children to obey.

    I had a neighbor (9 kids) who wore a piece of plastic toilet supply line about 6 inches long on a thong on her wrist. If the child willfully disobeys then they get a couple of swats with that. It stings, that’s it. Most people think of corporal punishment as pulling off the belt, putting them over your knee and raising welts on their rear end. No. Discipline is for willful disobedience, not childish foolishness.

    Child wants a cookie. You say no. Child reaches for the cookie anyway, a quick pop on the hand and a smile at the child. Walk away and watch to see if the child goes for the cookie again. If so, repeat the procedure with no warnings or threats because the child already knows they are being disobedient.

    Most parents are all hot air (“Johnnie, do I have to go get my switch?” “Johnnie, I’m warning you!” Johnnie has heard it before and already knows how far he can push it), but children want hard and consistent boundaries. They’ll push against the boundaries from time to time in the same way that women will at least occasionally shit test their men, and for the same reason. The want the reassurance of structure and evidence that you’re fit to rule them.

    Training is intentionally creating a situation in which the child has the choice between obedience or disobedience. If they disobey, they’re punished, and if the parents are 100% consistent, the children very quickly get with the program. This pays dividends as the child continues to grow. The problem with not being consistent is this:

    What is the difference between a rebellious child and an obedient child? Is the child that obeys 90% of the time an obedient child? No. It’s a child that’s 100% rebellious that is compliant 90% of the time. This is kind of like a discussion of AWALT, and I’m sure everyone has an opinion, especially those who haven’t raised lots of kids. Different children have different temperaments but parents who only have one or two kids often don’t appreciate just how much difference there can be.

    Some children are very compliant and obedient, others (some call the “strong willed children) are naturally rebellious. If the parent is about 80% consistent in disciplining the child, that’s good enough for the compliant child, but that rebellious child is weighing the odds. Is it worth it to do the deed with an 80% chance of being punished? For some of them, it’s the fact that 20% of the time they WIN, and that’s enough. Even the rebellious child will get with the program with a 100% consistent disciplinary policy on the part of the parents.

    It’s exhausting, mentally and emotionally, but it’s for the child’s own well-being. I’ve talked to parents who related stories about a particular child who was a “handfull” when it came to behavior. A common comment is something along the lines of “that child kept me on my knees praying for 15 years when I wasn’t chasing him.”

    Here’s the problem: With some children, if the effort isn’t made before 2 years old, 3 years old at the outside, then the opportunity is lost. Once a strong-willed child is set in their ways (5-6) then it’s an uphill battle for the next 12-14 years and the parents better be 100% consistent. By that, I mean a command is given once and once only. No warnings. No threats.

    Some parents have had experience only with a compliant child and cannot fathom what it’s like to parent a strong-willed child. I’m lucky, I only had one and I was fortunate that he was #4, I knew what to do and had some good friends who had been through the same thing with children of their own. I was also fortunate that I’d made the decision some years before to work from home because I had to take over with him completely. My wife wasn’t up to the task.

    Given the price of the books, it’s worth buying/reading them all (seriously, all 4 is about like reading a novel-sized book) if for no other reason that to see if the advice meets with common sense. I’m willing to bet you’d find that the techniques make perfect sense. Training accustoms the child to obedience. Discipline is reserved for willful disobedience, not childish foolishness. Tying heartstrings is the process of developing loving and emotional bonds with the child, creating an emotional desire on the part of the child to please, honor and obey their parents.

  24. @Rollo Tommassi
    “’I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.”

    Fatherhood From a Man and not a tormented soul of reckless rage and emotional neglect.

    Thank you

  25. What Rugby said.

    This was an exceptional and important post for me, Rollo, and it was generous of you to stretch your usual ‘non-prescriptive’ boundaries to discuss and direct some very important aspects of the importance of RP parenting in an overwhelmingly fem-centric cultural environment. Thank you for that.

    As I’ve noted in previous comment threads, I’m a single father of two sons—both under the age of 10. Reading TRM for almost 3 years has made me a better man and more positively masculine father to my children, already.

    You rock.

  26. “Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU1vL3TsIis

    “The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself.”

    “In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.”

  27. A rich topic indeed. I have one of each, 11 then 9 years old, bro and sis.

    For both of them, and the wife for that matter, frame is the origin of success for all that’s for sure. The further you go down the tracks the easier it is to be unflappable and that makes the whole show easier to run.

    Perhaps I am lucky or perhaps it is born of skill and determination but I essentially never get blow back from my wife on child rearing issues at this point. An exception was the other day, a heat of the moment parent on the spot kind of thing, I cannot recall the specifics. She very specifically went against what I had to say on something parental. Later that night going to sleep I laid out my dissatisfaction with the situation and it took a day, but she came back fully recanting her position after having sobered up and considered my view of the world.

    With both parents on the same team, it’s waaaaaaay easier to manage the kids in general and far easier to go fully RP. Against my wife’s impulses she has learned if I am around and something comes up with the kids that she is better off biting her tongue and slowing down her response. Normally she is flightly and ill reasoned and she is finally understanding and acknowledging this. Too often her response is emotionally driven and lacks any future time orientation or any place within a larger context or set of goals for the children. She has come to understand that waiting for me to intervene in anything serious offers layers of perspective that she has not considered.

    If I see one consistent failure in BP marriages and parenting I would say its that. Mom’s emotional response to situations becomes the lead in the situation and it is predictably solipsistic. Emotions can play a positive role in rearing the kid but they should not lead the way the whole time. Too often an emotional response undercuts a logical set of rules that had been laid out ahead of time with good reason. Undercutting those rules often simply advertises they don’t matter in reality.

    As for RP for the kids. With my son I make a point of just guy time, I make a point of helping him understand the glaring double standards he must endure in the world between boys and girls, men and women. It’s a learning opportunity for him. Every time he has to bear and unreasonable burden that a girl may not, I remind him it can make him stronger and that it’s also because the girls are weak and cannot hack it. When he gets frustrated with his sisters emotional rollercoasters I remind him that many women are built this way, their behaviour is not acceptable and he is allowed to push back on it and that her emotional modulations are a sign of weakness. He can show pity on such behaviour but he does not have to accept it. In general I encourage him to kind of feel a little bit superior and look down his nose at such antics.

    One great thing I do with my son is father son time driving him to school. I make him listen to the CBC (NPR North of the border). The news is good as it gives all manner of real world events for us to discuss. We only have 15 minutes but its just the two of us and its a good chance for him to delve into complex topics. In doing so we can hash through a lot of interesting concepts about how the world works, a lot of RP gets sewn into those conversations. I add unvarnished commentary that he knows is likely not acceptable in “mixed company”. He likes having our little secret club in the car where anything can be discussed and nothing leaves the car.

    For other RP stuff I simply try to teach him and his buddies some explicit basics but wrap it up like a bit of a secret society thing that they CANNOT SHARE WITH GIRLS!!! The easiest one to lay down on little boys is “watch what they do not what they say”, Try that with a squad of ten year olds then send them on a mission for a day and ask how many times they see a divergence coming out of a female mouth relative to what was done, it’s a very funny exercise to get field reports from ten year olds on that kind of thing. they love when they really see it in action. Plus its automatic bonding when you make it exclusive to just boys and you tell them that. Oh and you come off as the counter cultural cool guy dad because you’re the only one who says its OK for boys to just play with boys in some circumstances. Likewise for girls to just play with girls some times.

    As for my daughter, well I just stay the course and don’t put up with any of her bullshit. If she’s upset I make an effort to understand her issue but I never simply roll over and accept histrionics. It works really well. If the shit hits the fan, she always comes to me not her mother to work it out. After any kind of blowout between me and daughter, it may take an hour or a day, but she will come to me without any prompting, tell me she loves me, and just curl up on me for a hug as her way of saying, “sorry, I know you were right”.

  28. As a new father I’ve very much enjoyed this series on Red Pill parenting. I am struggling a bit though on the best way to “train” and discipline.

    My father was very physically abusive and did not “spare the rod”. While some things he did I think were necessary, some other things were definitely not and excessive. I’ve read much literature since about spanking and the psychological effects, etc. I’m all for strict discipline, especially since I have a son, but is there a better method that anyone has experience with besides spanking or corporal punishment? I don’t want my son growing up to be afraid that I would hurt him like I was of my dad. I think that’s a sick Stockholm Syndrome type of relationship, where you’re supposed to love the one who abuses and hits you with a belt because it’s your dad. I am not 100% against it mind you, and yes I do realize the difference as well between light swats to get compliance and full out POW type whipping, but are there any other Red Pill parents out there who have success with methods other than spanking? I don’t want to be one of those dads who just does the same things that were done to me because “well I turned out alright”…pisses me off so much when people say that.

    Thanks guys.

  29. @seaman, re discipline.
    I learned even before I was RP a few methods that so far have been pretty good.
    for toddlers quiet time was the best. It is separate and distinct from “time out”.
    Say daughter goes off with some giant hissy fit etc, the behaviour is simply not acceptable. The first time it happens she gets a warning and a reminder of what is acceptable. If it happens again, there is not debate, there is no negotiation there is simply “quiet time”. The child would be sent to sit on the steps leading upstairs in our house in the front hall. All I would have to say is “Sit down, collect yourself and we’ll talk when it’s over”.

    Each child knew the standard quiet time was the same as their age in minutes. The expectation is that they sit on the stair, the same one, no climbing to other stairs etc. They had to sit quietly and just be chill for the entire time. If they start crying, screaming, debating, whatever, its dead simple, you just restart the clock.

    At the end of the time you have a very simple conversation. “do you know what you did wrong?” let them answer, “Will it happen again?” let them answer. Done. after that, act as if nothing happened at all. With one exception, if they owe someone a legitimate apology they must address that, but after that the event is not to be brought up again. No flaming, no shaming, no badgering.

    One of the most important aspects of this I learned is to use that time to actually defuse the mother. She always wants to give some twenty minute rambling lecture to the kid. a kid who is likely tired hungry and upset has not time for shit like that, they more often then not simply need to regulate their emotions, like their mother. So even for me, I use the quiet time to cool off so I don’t go off all hot headed on the kid for whatever happened. It was a good part of helping me establish and maintain frame with the kids and the wife. I was still very blue pill when I started that but it just seemed so right. Remove emotion, give everyone time to find their feet after some kind of incident, learn to keep things compact and to the point.

    For my son I think I used it maybe three times a year. For my daughter it was closer to three times a day. The funny thing is, she actually got so good at self regulation I didn’t even need to tell her to go to quiet time. If she had a blow out and could not regulate her own emotions, she would automatically check out and go sit on the stairs to calm herself down.

    I haven’t used this on either of them in a few years now as they are generally really pretty good kids.

    Biggest problem now is video games and over running the allotted time for it. So now I lay down the rules. They know when they are supposed to be off the system or the computer. They get a five minute warning a one minute warning and they have an opportunity to petition for a bit more time if they are finishing a specific task. If they run over and fail to communicate why however, the system is gone for 24 hours automatically, no words, no admonishment, just unplugged and taken away. I then just go back to what I was doing. It has trained them quite well. They used to protest and cry and make excuses for why but sure enough they learn to deliver the desired response and they don’t piss and moan about the consequences of a mistake on their part.

    The over riding way to succeed is simply to be consistent with what the rules are and how they are applied. Take away all emotion if possible when disciplining. The worst time to discipline a kid is when the parent is worked up, too tired, worn out etc. Then you are just taking shit out on a kid you are not helping them understand a system of behaviour that you want them to get on board with.

  30. Post script:
    Time out as opposed to quiet time was for when they went way over the top and could not be calmed down. Time out was being sent to their / her room until she could calm down enough to even have a quiet time. sometimes they would be so far gone that to have them on the stairs causing a huge fuss was just plain disruptive to the rest of the squad.

    An important part of quiet time is that it is not a total shunning, the kid needs to be close enough to be heard but not seen. They need to know that the connection to the parent is still there but is different.

    In a decade I think I have only spanked my son once and my daughter two or three times. It’s the nuclear option when they have gone way past anything reasonable and they are downright digging in the heels to test the limits of my resolve. I use it sparingly , very sparingly. To me if I resort to that I have effectively failed in parenting somehow.

    these days my big issue is the blowback I get for some things. They are now old enough that I can simply say, “Look, sometimes I have to parent and that means doing and saying things that you’re not going to like but as a parent I have to do it. So do me a favour and don’t shit all over me for doing my job, you can disagree, you can voice your opposition but don’t make me out to be a bad guy for doing what needs to be done.”

    Depersonalizing it makes a big difference. It’s that same as “I love you, but I don’t love what you’re doing”.

  31. Found the red pill a few years ago and ever since have been trying to use it on my kids.

    Son: Sometimes his mom won’t let him do or have things,and honestly, her response as to the reasoning says it all, “Because I said so.” So, for example, when she won’t let my son have a cookie, I’ll sneak him one and say, “Us guys have to stick together. Don’t tattle on me.” I’m giving him a small example of man code.

    I also teach him about how to win the teasing game. His sister knew how to tease when she was 18 months old. Unbelievable, but clear as day, so I’ve had to teach him how to win the teasing game. Daughter teases, son says, “I don’t care.” Get’s my daughter pissed. He still loses, but he now knows that daddy is looking out for him and is on his side.

    Daughter: I am consistent is setting and keeping boundaries, unlike mommy. She knows that when I say something I mean it, and I rarely have to go past one reminder before she gets in line. She has been my #1 training tool in understanding women. She can have drastic mood swings at the drop of a hat. She honestly needs someone solid to NOT REACT to her craziness. I show her true love too though, so I’ve been lucky to balance it out thus far.

    Both Kids: I remind them to be thankful for what they have. At dinner I always say a little thank you for the food we have and the family we have. I remind them that some kids won’t eat today and some people don’t have any family to talk to. On occasion, they will try to take mommy’s side on something and I’ll kindly remind them of my input. EX: other day, daughter was trying to tease me that “Mommy’s” car was better than mine. I reminded my daughter that it’s MY car, I bought it, and I’m just letting mommy drive it. You should have seen the look on her face. She knew it was true, but FI kicked in and she soon discounted it and was happy with her sense of her reality about the situation. Amazing!

  32. I try to create a healthy fear/respect of daddy for my daughters. For example, “Do I need to tell daddy about this when he gets home?”. I try to let him be the primary/more dreaded disciplinarian and emphasize that we need to ask him about plans and decisions we want to make.

    In my family growing up, when my dad deferred to my mom on a decision, it was clear that it wasn’t because he was abdicating authority, but delegating it because he was honoring her wisdom on the issue at hand. And it was never overtly spoken but it was clear. I’d like to emulate that.

  33. +1 for digging the prescriptive post.

    I really worry about the affect school will have on my boys. I can’t find an all boys school anywhere. The zero tolerance to fighting thing is just way overboard IMO. I think it is another reflection of women’s solipsism not understanding that two boys can come to blows and still have a functional relationship afterwards. It might even exacerbate the bullying problem.

  34. All the anti bullying campaigns have done is teach boys to bully like girls.

    Emotional and manipulative.

    We should ENCOURAGE our boys to fight.

    I remember in elementary school we had a kid bullying us and other kids. So me and my buddies beat the shit out of him. Caught major flack from the school, but also got my first kiss. (From my first oneitis lol)

    He never bullied us again.

  35. Agent P…..nice work capturing the family dynamic. I especially liked the part about the wife needing to cool down, not just the kid. Watching women discipline children is like watching a train wreck.

    Artisan Toad…….that’s an amazing metaphor for dads being present, the baby bird in the nest. I couldn’t articulate this when I was “negotiating” with my ex about why we should stay married (I know, it was ugly), but you have completely nailed it.

  36. Playboy:

    Catering to the wives of betas. If it’s a “lifestyle” mag and not a nude mag, then it can sit on the coffee table next to menshealth and not catch any flack from the wife.

    Beta’s wife stamp of approval!

  37. “He never bullied us again.”

    Yeah exactly. Even if you don’t beat the shit out of the kid at least you get some respect. You need to let the other kids know you aren’t going to be walked on without a fight.

  38. My understanding is that playboy will directly compete with maxim.

    So bikinis and such, but no nudes.

    And lifestyle advice…”Help! My wife doesn’t want sex, what can I do to win her back?”

    “When was the last time you had a date night? How often do you compliment her?”

    Barf.

  39. Maxim is shit because it was run by women from the outset, it’s mission to be an alternative to Playboy for men too embarrassed to buy Playboy.

    Playboy started to go to shit as soon as it was handed over to women. It was only a matter of time before it went full Maxim.

  40. Do people actually read Maxim and Playboy anymore? I hear they come in these paper-like books that are called “magazines.” Huh, kind of interesting how our ancestors “read” porn.

  41. “You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them.”

    Funny how timely this is for me. I’m actually writing a toast for my father as he’s retiring tomorrow. I am definitely going to stress the appreciation. I kind of resented him for a long time because he was never around and working all the time. The toast is going to be red pill as fuck. Going to tell him to put himself first. Find a mission. Self fulfillment. Don’t let Mom run his life. Poor guy is so beta, but he’s got Alpha in there. He just needs to nurture it.

  42. Playboy went wrong a long time ago already when they went with an interesting American social norm a good friend once explained to me:

    There is a difference between “sexy” and “arousing” and “sexy” is ok in US mainstream culture while “arousing” is strictly forbidden.
    Where Playboy went and were also things like Victoria’s Secret shows are is “sexy”, which is all about aesthetics but not really arousing (at least if you have seen tits before). There are way stronger visual attractions going right into the dick, but they are carefully avoided in this culture.

  43. Lh, good point.

    If playboy were smart they would of found the sweet spot between “sexy” and outright porn.

    Increase the arousal, not make it PC.

    Maybe “erotic” is the word I’m looking for.

  44. @Rollo
    I’m in party mode right now (gathering poon for the winter) so I haven’t read this parenting article or Part 1 of it but just wanted to drop a thanks in advance for writing them ’cause I was one of the ones bugging you to, and I think your perspective on this is important because you’re a Red Pill guy pulling off what sounds like a normal family household (VS like Adam Lyons with his weird situation, or Style who has an agenda to sell out and give blue pill advice, or Tyler who I get the impression doesn’t see his kids a ton cause he’s off flying around running his business, etc)

    Bookmarked these articles to read later in the year when I have more downtime to get into the right headspace to fully absorb the wisdom in ’em.

    Realistically down the road there’s going to come a point where most guys have unplugged from the Matrix and know marriage is a bust, but they’re still going to have that biological urge to have kids and a 2-parent household is best for that (I think the ideal is probably get together with a chick for 10-15 years to raise a kid to the point where he’s old enough to not get all fucked up by his parents splitting), so we’re all going to need as many data reference points as possible of success/failure at trying different shit and raising kids from an RP frame to try to provide answers for those guys.

    @Playboy
    Cheersing girls to the tragic death of Playboy tonight lol Leads into discussing classy/raunchy porn, then transition into “would you ever pose for Playboy?” which transitions into “how many naked pics of yourself are on your phone right NOW?” etc etc Thanks for the help, Hef! R.I.P. titties.

    P.S. watch The Girls Next Door, Hef’s reality series, for a lot of insights into running a pLTR (pay attention to how Holly has special privileges and each girl knows her order in the hierarchy etc)

  45. @Andy
    ” I’m actually writing a toast for my father as he’s retiring tomorrow. I am definitely going to stress the appreciation. I kind of resented him for a long time because he was never around and working all the time.”

    ALL ABOARD THE GODDAMN FEELS TRAIN:

    man I gotta go e-mail my dad

  46. Indeed. Though I think they would still have hit the problem of the death of print.

    But the issue with “sexy” and “arousing” goes way deeper maybe: The “sexy” ideal is the “inaccessible goddess”, creating attraction off scarcity, distance and status. Maybe this paves the way towards the dead bedroom and wifey playing games with “no sex” already for the betas?

  47. While I really appreciate the parenting advice given on this thread, remember that you and your family always exist in a social context. In my case, early on, my now ex-wife would overtly overrule my attempts to set boundaries and be disciplined with my daughter when we were still together, even though it worked.

    It became ridiculous at a certain point. We split when the kid was just about to turn 5 but I lived in the same town and was a constant force in her life until the ex moved her 40 miles way to stop this due to her new husband’s pressure in large part. My ex could not discipline my daughter but when she was with me she behaved well. I attribute this to being consistent. My approach was to have few rules but to enforce them 100%. You could jump up and down on the couch or the bed, but when I said it was bedtime, arguing didn’t work – but it did with my wife so the kid got very confused.

    It came to a head when she was like 6 and threw an epic tantrum at my place one night and I simply put her in her room and let her scream and cry. She tried to leave the room (the door had no lock) so I used a belt to ensure the door couldn’t be opened. She stayed there for three hours, alternately crying and then screaming at me. I remained calm and told her that once she calmed down she could come out and talk to me about what she was concerned about, but as long as she was behaving the way she was, she would remain in the room.

    3 hours later she’d calmed down. I did not get invested in her upset, I went around my business my apt, confident I was doing the right thing. When she came out, it was evening and she just curled up on the couch under my arm and snuggled with me while we had a quiet talk. My daughter never once threw a tantrum on me again – until she was a teen that is, but I’d already been cut out of her life in large ways.

    My daughter listened to me from then on and my ex knew it. By age 7, my ex would call me to discipline my daughter over the phone – she could be throwing a fit with the wife that she couldn’t deal with but I could get her to calm down and comply over the phone by simply telling her what to do and telling her the consequences of her behavior if she didn’t comply. She knew I meant it – which made all the difference.

    But when she wasn’t with me, she ran amok. She also saw how other parents and kids behaved. She also learned from the pop culture that strict parents are bad and even possibly abusive – I can’t control any of that. The most bizarre thing was how my ex-wife learned nothing from any of it. Imagine the cognitive dissonance of my ex – she knew her approach didn’t work and that mine did to the point that she would call me to discipline my daughter over the phone. But it never occurred to her to change her own behavior. Instead she would counter-escalate and become as hysterical as my daughter, and then never stick to her word. Imagine how stupid such a woman is.

    My daughter today behaves much like her Mom. Society permits her to be so. She’s a “strong, independent woman™” and Dad’s an asshole. Now I was divorced and alienated throughout my daughter’s teen years, so it’s different from married guys. But my ex undermined my authority when I was in the home utterly, non-stop. I think this happens to lots of men.

    How well can you fight gravity? Just sayin’…

  48. “Now I was divorced and alienated throughout my daughter’s teen years, so it’s different from married guys. But my ex undermined my authority when I was in the home utterly, non-stop.”

    @scribbleberg

    I watch my friends wives do this and it just enrages me. So fucking disrespectful. One of these days I’m totally going to snap and tell them off.

    When I get home my wife defers most of the discipline to me. Sometimes she can’t stop herself and she freaks out, but for the most part I think she appreciates having the break from being a hard ass. She always thinks I’m too harsh, but I think that’s just human nature.

  49. @scribblerg, I can definitely relate to that. My wife has less control over my kids than I do because she isn’t consistent. I tell her she knows what works because she’s watched Super Nanny many times, but the “nurture gene” gets in the way. Plus, most women don’t know how to control their tone, so although to women they think they are dishing out discipline, their tone is revealing desperation, frustration, and a lack of resolve. Kids can sense the difference in tone and act accordingly.

  50. @YaReally, that vid is awesome. One man’s song reaching thousands of audience members and raining down red pill awareness of the plight of men. Couple of the women in the audience seems to be holding back tears to the realizations revealed.

  51. @Rollo,

    Ok, I agree with the reviews, this is one of your top posts Rollo.

    I have to say, this post seems to be answering a question you asked (I think) in a comment section 4-5 posts ago. The question revolved around whether or not the FI would ever “go away” or if men/fathers would have to essentially beat it back.

    …I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.

    Abso-fucking-lutely. This gets missed by sooo many people. This FI influence starts soooo early, earlier than anyone can possibly grasp. Kids are just information sponges, they want to be adult so badly that they will emulate everything they experience. If all they experience, even from Day 1, is daddy sacrificing and being walked all over… that entirely shapes their lives. If they’re male, it shapes their self-perception to self-destructive degrees. I’d go even one step further and say that most suicides are actually decided between years 0-8 when the child is given such a base example of their worthlessness that it is incontrovertible in later years.

    Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.

    This explains a bit why you mentioned you preferred having a daughter. I never understood why at the time. Now it’s clear, you would have had to work that much harder to contradict the FI.

  52. @Ben, thanks for those grocery store tips too. Chatted up a nice looking girl a few weeks back. Spotted her enter a different check out line, I switched mine to right behind her. She puts her stuff down and puts the little divider stick down. I put my one item on her side. She looks at me. I smirk, then put it back on the correct side and open. Just another method for you.

  53. “This FI influence starts soooo early, earlier than anyone can possibly grasp.”

    In its original form, the Tender Years Doctrine only covered the the first four years. At the age of five default custody returned to the father.

    Those first four years were all it took for women to start instilling the FI as the dominant paradigm into the general culture.

  54. @YaReally, honestly I’m hoping guys such as yourself or Christian McQueen will take this series to heart and pass on what you’ve learned from the moment your son or daughter exits the womb.

    This series, and this post in particular, was a lot of work for me, and I could honestly write a book based on Red Pill parenting (no plans yet, sorry). There’s so much to consider and while I was writing this post I kept coming up with different men’s circumstances and where they find themselves in life as a parent.

    I think, with all things, men need to begin an endeavor with the ending in mind. It’s actually a law of power to plan all the way through to the end and I think this definitely applies to your most important task of raising a child into Red Pill awareness, should you choose to make it your own.

    That said, it’s kind of a different order to tell men who’ve become Red Pill aware after having been a Beta, Blue Pill father for a number of years. If you think convincing your wife that you’re more Alpha than you were is tough, it’s an order of magnitude tougher to convince your kids that your transformation is genuine.

    So I had to consider a lot of variables and compress it into a post that still weighed in at over 3800 words. I still feel like I could address more considerations too.

    I do have one more related post that’ll be forthcoming about mentoring young men in Red Pill awareness.

  55. Suggestion: Let’s draw a circle around the “corporal punishment” thing. It’s a distraction, let the mommy-parent websites bloviate about it. And believe me they do. Fall into that trap here and it’s concern troll city. The thread will be forever hijacked and branded as the “Dads beat your kids” site. So let’s not got there anymore. We are talking about discipline, not the same thing at all.

    FWIW if you have sufficient Frame no swatting will ever be needed. The key is acting like you MIGHT do something awful. Which in my case was what I call barking: let a few seconds of red-eyed bellowing rage out at the bad behavior. (Quieter alternative: glare and finger snap to summon kid over, and you hiss like Clint Eastwood). Followed by unshakeable, unflappable calm in the follow up. Acting like a commissar. The message is: nothing you can scream or shout will change your fate. Yes you are trying to make the kid a bit fearful. If you sell it right, so the kid believes you, obedience follows. Gets easier as they get older; the need for it gets a lot less frequent. They won’t WANT to see that side of your anger so they will avoid provoking it.

    In extreme cases you can back up the “something awful” threat by doing, well, something awful, like their favorite video game or toy or computer vanishes for a while, or the TV/media router is blocked. No appeal, no recanting. Bad behavior begets bad consequences which your young’un just has to ride out, as in adult life. This is what “be a Dad, not another Mom” is all about.

    And then of course, when punishment is over, reassurance, so they see the anger is for the bad behavior only, not for the child’s existence or character.

    What also turned out well over time was to acknowledge but not apologize for my anger, and also give the reasons for it – so she would never think the barking was just arbitrary or unfounded. You have to do that with an intelligent kid, I think. “Because I said so” can be reason #1, but the real reason should be given too.

    And if you make a mistake? Apologize. ONCE. No more. Then the subject is dropped. No supplicating or “so so sorry x1000 daddy still loves you smooch smooch”.

    You might well have to maintain this Frame in the face of disapproving blue pill “friend-parenting”sorts who will say all this is supposedly “child abuse” according to the “be the kids’ friend” mommy blogs. Though funnily enough I never had an issue. I had steeled myself to have playground arguments about it someday, but they never happened. I think I got a sharp look or two but nothing more. Maybe I seemed too scary. (Which is really funny because I’m not IRL). Possibly my Frame was so good, and the good results so clear, there was nothing to argue. Or it was because we didn’t live somewhere trendy like Park Slope, where you get ticketed for ordering a latte improperly.

    Now of course none of this guarantees any good outcome. ScribblerG’s story makes this painfully clear, and I know other men who faced similar betrayals and abandonments, so I know he speaks true. But you do what you do anyway. The reward is that you did what you did, you’ll never see a prize for it, but you have that little peace of mind.

  56. @Fred Flange

    FWIW if you have sufficient Frame no swatting will ever be needed.

    If you have sufficient frame, all you need is a look of disappointment. I’ve watched dads quiet down 3 year olds with a simple look.

  57. The real nature of the human male cannot be changed. No amount of drugs, shame, or contrived social convention has or will change our innate constitution. Not even propaganda that implores men to wonder if they should be more like women will change men. Medical disfigurements and mutations cannot supersede the power of nature. Feminism seeks to mutilate masculinity while feigning masculine characteristics. The feminist attempt to usurp male strength and initiative is pathetic as she cannot alter the nature of the X – Y chromosome dynamic and its effects. Her failure to do so is made more blatant by her increasingly distorted aberrations and scamming convolutions. Her insanity is superceded by its exponential increase as she fails to destroy masculinity for men and embrace it for herself. Each gender is not merely a vessel of characteristics that can be arbitrarily shared between the genders or robbed from one by the other.

  58. @Jeremy, Andy, Glenn, as I stated in this essay you will never be appreciated for your role as a father in a social order that’s saturated in the FI. Thus you need to find your parenting intrinsically rewarding; sometimes it’ll just be you and God who appreciate some evidence of your influence on your kids.

    While Mrs. Tomassi is fully aware of my books and writing and my involvement in TRP, my daughter is not. I’ll probably explain most of it to her and introduce her to my books when she’s in college, but I’ve always kept her ignorant and anonymous of it all because I want to protect her identity.

    The unexpected joy I get from that is seeing how my influence has sunk in to her thinking and attitudes towards boys and girls she interacts with. She constantly relates stories about how she detests the feminist influences her girlfriends are so wrapped up in, and she’s only attracted to more masculine, assertive boys.

    As a result she’s already getting into heated debates with her girlfriends about complementarity vs. egalitarianism in gender issues. She makes very pro Red Pill arguments without knowing what Red Pill as an abstract really means. She’s had one boyfriend, but she dumped him before the summer because he “doesn’t do shit” and she tired of his lack of life motivation.

    I made a joke at the MiD conference about this, but imagine you’re dating the daughter of Rollo Tomassi? You’ve got a pretty high bar to reach.

    That said, as a Red Pill parent or mentor it’s vitally important to use your Red Pill lens to point out the glitches in the Matrix when you see them with a kid. It should become an intrinsic reward to you when that kid starts using his/her own Red Pill lens to see the social machinations of the FI. It’s evidence of your positive influence.

  59. I made a joke at the MiD conference about this, but imagine you’re dating the daughter of Rollo Tomassi? You’ve got a pretty high bar to reach.

    … Not to mention a very awkward parental introduction.

  60. While the way of raising boys Rollo described seems right to me, I’m not so sure you’ll really create alphas. Being alpha isn’t about obeying or doing what someone else thinks is good for you. Being alpha is about breaking rules and not let anyone tell you what to do.

    Of course you can question if you want an alpha son, because it may well be some lazy bastard, unable to conform or submit to anything, not school and all that especially.

    So the question might be, if you want your son to be easy to handle for you and to find an easy way to become a useful member of society or do you want your son to have the best chances with the ladies without any need for some PUA training?

    Rollo spoke for toning down the alpha as a father and actually caring for the kid (real alphas are too egoistic for that). And on first sight this seems reasonable, the alphas I know that didn’t care for their kids but let the women do it get beta sons as far as I can tell. But I tried to help 2 of them and realized, if you only explain to them how their fathers aren’t evil bastards but actually practicing a very efficient way of dealing with their mothers, they understood and could connect to the father, solving many of the problems of their lives.

    So, to finish the circle, I’m wondering if it might be better to let the mother do the children stuff alone to give the son the opportunity to overpower the mother (which is doable and comes naturally during puberty, while overpowering a dominant father is not). Being able to dominate the mother will go a long way with any other women after. As an alpha-father you’d have to do very little in this and especially you wouldn’t help the mother reigning the son in but in case of necessity would stop the mother from going too far and maybe tell the son enough to understand your ways and how you are fine with him going alpha.

  61. @Rollo
    “@YaReally, honestly I’m hoping guys such as yourself or Christian McQueen will take this series to heart and pass on what you’ve learned from the moment your son or daughter exits the womb.”

    Not just our own kids, because who knows when/if I’ll reproduce, I could get hit by a train tomorrow. But as a guy with social circles where my friends are hitting the age of having kids, I’m going to be the “cool uncle YaReally” to a number of kids and their fathers respect my opinion on this shit (since some of them MET their girls because of it lol). So pondering the experiences of guys like yourself (and even the guys sharing stories of failed child-rearing from a Red Pill perspective, there’s a lot to learn from the mistakes and failures just as there are from the successes) isn’t just for my own benefit, but ideally I’ll be in a position where I can influence friends kids and my friends themselves, nudging them in the direction of “maybe you shouldn’t let your kid watch that show because it teaches him not to respect you” or “you need to stand up to your wife, your kid needs one of you to take the lead and you knew when we met her that your wife was overly emotional, that’s not a bad thing but your kid needs you to enforce boundaries” etc etc.

    They’ll probably give my advice limited credence because I don’t have kids myself, but ANYTHING I can do to help guide them (even linking them to your articles etc if they’re deep enough into Red Pill territory) will help the next generation hopefully not come out all fucked up lol And when I drop by for visits I can ideally take the kid for a walk and drop some red pill truths here and there that’ll be taken more seriously coming from their “cool uncle YaReally” than their “lame parents”.

    “I kept coming up with different men’s circumstances and where they find themselves in life as a parent.”

    Ideally your articles spark discussion (which they seem to be), which is where we start collecting data points from men who understand the Red Pill perspective of what worked and didn’t work and what obstacles they faced and what results they got as their kids got older, and that’s where the real work comes in. Same way PUAs did it back in the day…the problem is no one is sharing this information or having this dialogue until someone sets a good precedent to open that conversation up. Hopefully your articles do that.

    “If you think convincing your wife that you’re more Alpha than you were is tough, it’s an order of magnitude tougher to convince your kids that your transformation is genuine.”

    All the more reason we need this discussion started now. Ideally down the road there’s a solid “how to raise a kid properly” Red Pill handbook for guys, whether they’re RP guys who want to settle down or RP guys who had bad luck with a broken condom and have no idea what they’re doing and find the FI-based child-rearing info inadequete.

    “So I had to consider a lot of variables and compress it into a post that still weighed in at over 3800 words. I still feel like I could address more considerations too.”

    I would view it as something you’ll have to come back to every few years, as the community gathers more and more reference experiences to compare notes. There’s no way you’re going to fully encapsulate it all in these 3 articles, as good as they are, because the topic is just so huge and men are in so many different circumstances.

    But hey, it’s the first step to not raising another generation of Michael Ceras. Rome wasn’t built in a day and all that.

    “I made a joke at the MiD conference about this, but imagine you’re dating the daughter of Rollo Tomassi? You’ve got a pretty high bar to reach.”

  62. A lot of the frustration here seems to stem from a lack of “appreciation”.

    Who is entitled to appreciation? Who is obligated to show appreciation? Does “appreciation” really accomplish anything?

    Being perfectly honest with myself, I have come to the realization that I really do not give a shit about appreciation. This is not a reaction, it is a realization. I am aware that I really do not give a rats ass if anyone “appreciates” me and my efforts or not. I am also aware that I never did.

    So what do I give a damn about?

    I give a damn about respect and those who choose to disrespect me should expect to pay the consequences. A man dishonors himself when he places appreciation from others above his self respect. A man who does not respect himself first before all others can expect the same from all others.

  63. @lh, don’t confuse Red Pill parenting with raising an Alpha son. Ideally that’d be great, but think more of exemplifying Red Pill awareness.

    Also, you must break the preconception that Alpha is a demographic. Alpha is a mindset.

    My brother is what you’d likely call a self-important Alpha. Egotistical? At times, but his egotism ends with his son. Why? Because his son is an extension of himself and his ego.

    You can be caring, supportive, nurturing, etc. in an Alpha context. I forget who it was, but there was a comment on one of the previous posts about a father who forced his young son to climb over some rocks on a jetty to get to him so they could fish. He seemed like an uncaring asshole, but the boy learned he could do something he didn’t think he could do because that Alpha (?) father insisted he do it.

  64. Yes Rollo, but from my own experience overpowering the mother, dominating her, is a key experience. If you can deal with your mothers manipulations etc., you’ll be able do deal with almost every shit women do.

  65. @NBTM, ‘appreciation’ is a loose term in this sense. It’s not appreciation in the “warm fuzzy, you’re great Dad, pat on the back” respect so much as it’s “your very presence is entirely superfluous, but if you’re not present you’re an asshole” respect.

    As I stated in the last post, it is the height of gender supremacism for the FI to be so arrogant to promote the idea that women make equally good fathers (masculine role modelers) as men. Thus your influence as a man isn’t really need so it isn’t appreciated.

  66. @lh

    If you can deal with your mothers manipulations etc., you’ll be able do deal with almost every shit women do.

    Do mothers shit-test their sons?

  67. To YaReally’s point (and I’ll get to this in the Mentoring post) the reason I stressed exclusively male-space as being imperative to a son’s development is because it’s needed to escape the overbearing influence of feminine primacy.

    I got into this in the Male Space essay, but one reason there is such a determined push to get women into those male spaces is because the FI can’t afford to have men talk amongst themselves uninfluenced by the feminine. That influence pits men against each other and limits a solidarity that would threaten the control of feminine primacy.

  68. @Rollo

    I think part of the reason Alpha is seen as a demographic does have some merit. Here you mention that RP awareness should be taught from day one to a child, and I agree. It’s been well known by developmental psychologists for a while that your values and system of morality are well established by 7 years old. It is almost impossible to change those things after they’ve been written; they’re almost carved in stone.

    If you were raised extremely Beta the way I was, despite having a few small Alpha tendencies here and there, then the psychological changes required to manifest a truly Alpha personality can be so large that it would require a complete “rewrite” of the person underneath. Consider that ideas like an internal point of origin and the unashamed selfishness that comes out of it are beaten out of kids with heavily feminine messages to always share, always be nice, never fight under any circumstances even if another kid is beating the shit out of you. Basically it becomes almost impossible to completely transition from a 100% Beta upbringing to being a strong Alpha.

    In that way, it does come to look like there’s a demographic capable of it, and much larger demographic that is not. Not to say that the capable demographic IS always Alpha, but that they’re the only part of the population capable of it.

  69. @Jeremy

    Do mothers shit-test their sons?

    Yes. My mother still does to this day whenever I talk to her.

  70. “As a result she’s already getting into heated debates with her girlfriends about complementarity vs. egalitarianism in gender issues.”

    That has to be immensely satisfying. I wish I had a daughter. I just didn’t want to end up with 3 boys. haha.

  71. @Sun, there will always be a desire in men and women to characterize Alpha in terms of what best suits themselves, or in terms of what they think should best serve their concept of what a pro-social role for an Alpha should look like.

    The first inclination is to associate Alpha with attributes of virtue, honor, leader-of-men, and all of the qualities that seem to make him superior in a pro-social respect.

    The other impulse is to characterize Alpha as anti-social, egotistical and associate it with Dark Triad aspects. Thus the definition of Alpha becomes negative so can those individualistic men really be superior? Are not pro-social cooperative and accommodating Beta not the ‘real’ Alphas then?

    What I’m saying is that Alpha is inherent to both those characterizations, and thus not a demographic. Anti-social, criminal gang leaders can teach their sons to be dominant Alphas as well as well respected business men and pastors.

  72. @Rollo,

    I think you and Sun are talking past each other. He was trying to make the point that early childhood experiences make it difficult to adopt the self as the MPO, and affect other necessary base aspects of alpha behaviors. Hence, he’s trying to say that there is a demographic that is more easily capable of Alpha, and one that is not.

    I don’t think he was trying to speak to the definition of Alpha.

  73. “A mothers shit-tests are different. But it’s mothers who make betas or try to.”

    Here’s a classic quote from my Mom:

    “I don’t know why you can’t find girlfriends. You are such nice boys!”

    God anytime I brought a girlfriend over she would shit test me so bad. Ugh, it was unbearable. Like “I can control your man better than you can” type shit… I finally got the balls to put a stop to that 10 years ago or so.

  74. @Andy

    I guess I never experienced a lot of that because I emotionally distanced myself from my mom at such an early age. I’d still get her saying things like that quote you made though, but I’d just roll my eyes at that.

  75. @Rollo

    Jeremy is correct. I think you missed my point. It wasn’t about defining it but about men who are actually capable of internalizing the attitudes commonly associated with it and what their upbringing will have to do with the capacity to manifest the thinking and behaviors required. That aspect does create a demographic that is more readily capable of it and a demographic that is not.

  76. My mother shit tests. Especially when I first took the red pill. She’s backed way off now and basically falls in line with my frame. Hell, she even apologizes to me when she knows she pushed to hard, all I do is give her a disappointed look.

    She’s like a hurricane of emotions, still she’s easy to handle. I just game her really. Tease her like I do any other girl, hold her accountable to a certain level of sanity.

    After the red pill I almost immediately took the alpha of the family spot from my dad. Now they all come to me for advice and what not. Even dad. He’s weak.

    One of my sisters wouldn’t fall into frame and caused the family major grief, so I chucked her out of my life. Everyone else followed my lead and did the same.

  77. @Rollo, another thing I’ve done with my son is to sit down with him and watch television with him (I restrict television viewing time) and point out all the times where men are made to look like fools in the commercials. He’s only eight, so he doesn’t fully grasp the nuances, but at least the basics of blue pill programming are revealed to him.

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