What I’m about to detail here will be a revolutionary act; I’m going to give men some prescriptive advice on how I believe they should go about raising their children from a Red Pill perspective. As most of my readers know I do my best to provide observations and connect dots, from there I expect men (and women) to form their own takes on what I’m seeing and either challenge those observations or develop some actionable practice that best suits their own circumstances.
I’ll be breaking that protocol here, but the premise still applies; what I think might be universally applicable to raising and mentoring the next generation may need to be modified for what your experience and circumstances dictate.
That said, the very idea that I would inform or instruct men (and by association women) on how I think a healthier, more durable generation of men might be developed in a Red Pill awareness is tantamount to being a hate crime today. My suggesting that boys and girls would benefit greatly from a Red Pill aware father is a frightening, seditionary act in a feminine-primary social order.
As things stand on a societal level now, just the mention of Red Pill truths in casual conversation will engender either ridicule or hostility. As Red Pill awareness spreads it will be considered subversive, particularly in a social order founded on the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primary social prioritization.
I don’t have too much positive to say about Roosh these days, but one thing I had to agree with was his recent assessment of how it’s necessary for men to meet in secret gatherings and maintain (as best as possible) a state of constant anonymity if they wish to discuss anything counter to feminine-primary social doctrine. Main stream media in feminine-primary society will characterize this need for anonymity as indicative of cowardice or a lack of conviction; bitter men just contenting themselves in their private anger and poisoning the minds of whomever will listen to them.
They need this characterization for now because men have something to lose. They fear having their bread taken away from them – the same bread that feminine-primary society expects men to provide the very women who would use it to extort a desired complacency from men. Cowardice is rooted in the fear of having something to lose. Once men become largely indifferent to that bread being forthcoming, that’s either when they snap, or that’s when they start a revolution.
ScribblerG (a.k.a. Glenn) had a good reminder for men in the last thread:
Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. At best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself.
I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later, wondering if my daughter would ever realize all I sacrificed to provide for her and her mom? I’d wonder if she’d ever get that I sacrificed being as close to her as her mother is to her for her wellbeing? That her closeness with her mom as a result of having a stay at home mom until she was 5 was a consequence of my efforts, not her Mom’s?
Guess what – nobody wants to hear it. Nobody gives a shit what sacrifices you make to be a good father and provider – it’s all about Mom. It’s all about the kids. Dad’s are at best seen as second best Moms most of the time. And even when we are “in charge”, we can be dismissed as superfluous in myriad ways.
Many men adapt by becoming second mothers and wives in the household – and the entire culture encourages this. Try being a traditional male at parent teacher night or at the pre-school or even the Boy Scout troop…Fatherhood and a family is not what it once was either. Trust me, learn from my experience. Your kids will very likely not appreciate all you’ve done for them.
Of course, I excuse all the fundo-christian-demi-god-uber-alpha-ripped-11 inch cock-men of steel™ here from this commentary. For you guys, it’s 1956 and your life is like Wally and the Beav…
Just like men subscribe to two sets of books – old and new social rule sets that contradict the other – I think our ideas of marriage fall into this same contradiction. When marriage was a social contract and not so much a legal one involving the state, the old set of books applied well to that institution. This old set of rules about marriage and what men could expect from that largely socially-enforced institution worked well and in a complementary paradigm. From the Little House on the Prairie days up to the post-war era, the first set of books worked well with regard to marriage and fatherhood.
After the sexual revolution, the second set of books took social preeminence. Optimizing Hypergamy and all of the social and legal paradigms that make it the foundation of our present social order took priority. Yet, both men and women still cling to the old order, the first set of rules when it comes to a man’s role as a husband and a father, and simultaneously expect him to adopt and promote the feminine-primary interests of the new feminine-primary order.
Fathers are expected to follow the edicts of conventional masculinity with regards to their provisioning for a family, but are also expected to adopt, embrace and internalize their popularized role of being superfluous, ridiculous or even angry and abusively resistant to the second set of rules.
In other words, the expectation is that he should be happy in his sacrificial role of provider, happy in his lack of appreciation for it or his presence, and happy to have the ‘village’ of society raise his children into the next crop of confused, frustrated adults while he’s doing it. He should be happy in his presence being devalued, but be held responsible for his lack of presence that his sacrifices demands.
Oh, and he should also feel a sense of smug pride when he see another man being pilloried for the same lack of his superfluous presence in his family’s life.
I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.
You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them. Your presence is only as superfluous as you allow it to be. While you will never be appreciated for it in any measurable sense, you will be liable for it, so my advice is to make the most of it in a Red Pill respect. Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order. If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding.
Understand now, the Feminine Imperative wants you to be despondent about your role.
Understand this, your presence, your influence, will only be as valuable or as appreciated as you are willing to make it to yourself. Your Red Pill aware influence in your kids’ lives needs to matter to you first, because it will never be appreciated in your time, and in fact will be actively, hostilely, be resisted by a world saturated in feminine-primacy.
Being a mother and birthing a child is a constantly lauded position today. By virtue of being a mother, women are rewarded and respected in society. Men must add fatherhood to their burden of performance just to avoid the societal default of being vilified.
The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.
In Preventive Medicine I detail part of our present feminine-primary conditioning and how the imperative raises boys to be Betas and girls to be caricatures of Strong Independent Women®. Part of this was based on the essay Teach Your Children Well and the early ages at which this begins. The first, most primary truth you need to accept as a father is that if you don’t teach your children Red Pill truths there is an entire western(izing) world that is already established to raise them in your absence.
‘The Village’ will raise your kids if you don’t. You will be resisted, you will be ridiculed, you will be accused of every thought-crime to the point of being dragged away to jail in your imparting Red Pill awareness (in the future I expect it to be equated with child abuse). The Village will teach your boys from the most impressionable ages (5 years old) to loath their maleness, to feel shame for being less perfect than girls and to want to remake their gender-identity more like girls.
The Village will raise your daughters to perpetuate the same cycle that devalues conventional masculinity, the same cycle that considers men’s presence as superfluous and their sacrifices as granted expectations. It will raise your daughters to over-inflate their sense of worth with unearned confidence at the expense of boys as their foils. It will teach them to openly embrace Hypergamy as their highest authority and to disrespect anything resembling masculinity as more than some silly anachronism.
The good news is that for all of these efforts in social engineering, the Feminine Imperative is still confounded by basic biology and the psychological firmware evolved into us over millennia. That basic root reality is your greatest advantage as a father.
I’m often asked when I believe would be the best time to introduce a boy to the Red Pill. A lot of guys with teenage sons want to hand them a copy of The Rational Male before they hit 18, or maybe when they’re 15, some even say 12 is really a good time. While it’s flattering for me to hear men tell me how they gave their teenage sons a copy of my book, I have to think that this is too late.
I’ve been a father to a teenage daughter for a while now and in my 20’s I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.
By the time that kid is 10 they’ve already internalized the stereotypes and social conditioning of the Blue Pill and they will start parroting these memes and behaving and believing in accordance with that conditioning. By the time they are in their tweens and beginning to socially interact with the opposite sex, the Blue Pill feminine-primary conditioning will be evident to any man with a Red Pill lens to hear and see it. That Blue Pill internalized ideology will seem natural and logical to them even though they couldn’t tell you how they came to their formative beliefs.
The time to start exemplifying Red Pill awareness in a parental capacity is before you even have kids. As I detailed in the first of these posts, an internalized Game that results from strong Red Pill awareness and a positive, dominant Frame control are imperative before you even consider monogamy. That Frame becomes the foundation for your parenting when your children come along.
I realize this isn’t exactly helpful for men who came to Red Pill awareness after their kids were in their teens, but it needs to be addressed for men considering becoming a father. Ideally you want to impart that same Red Pill awareness during a boy’s formative years. Children completely lack the capacity for abstract thought until their brains fully form and they learn to develop it. The age of 5 is the time when kids are most impressionable and learn the most, but they do so by watching behavior. So it’s imperative for a Red Pill father to demonstrate positive, conventional masculinity during these years.
Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.
Within this male-space your son needs to learn about his eventual burden of performance.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked. This is important because it not only teaches him to value his masculinity, but also to accept the responsibilities of his burden of performance.
Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.
He needs to learn that men and women are different and only deserving of earned respect, not a default respect granted to the female sex. Eventually he needs to learn to accept his own dominance and mastery in a world that will tell him his sex is a scourge on society.
Your presence in his life is an absolute necessity if you are to thwart the efforts of fem-centrism. I was asked about Red Pill fathering in my last Christian McQueen interview and my first inclination was to say do things with your son. Even if that’s playing chess, being the man, his model for masculinity is vitally important and to impart this to him you need to have a mutual purpose. As I’ve written before, women talk, men do. Men get together socially with a purpose, an action, a hobby, a sport, a creative endeavor, etc. and then they communicate while working towards that purpose.
Your son must learn this from a very early age, particularly when he’s likely to be forced into feminine-primary social structures and conditioned to communicate like girls do in school as well as in popular media. One of the tragedies of our age is a generation of Blue Pill men raising their sons to adopt feminine-primary communication preferences because they themselves had no experience with conventional masculinity. They can’t teach what they don’t understand.
Demonstrate, do not explicate is true of dealing with women, but it is also an imperative of Red Pill parenting. Your son (and daughter) needs to see his mother’s deference to your dominant Frame and beneficent authority. He needs to understand on a rudimentary level that his mother responds to your positively masculine Frame. Again this is imperative since your kids will see a much different narrative being displayed in popular culture and their schooling.
Show him how a man presents himself, how a man reacts to a threat, how a man commands a dog, how a man interacts with, and helps, other men he values. Do not think that you’ll start teaching him Red Pill awareness when he’s old enough to understand it. By then it’s too late, he’s resistant to it and thinks his Beta Game is more appropriate. Your son will follow your lead, but that must start from day one, not age 12. I have a good friend now who’s 16 year old son is literally following the same path his Beta father; he’s moved in with his estranged ex wife because he was closer to his ONEitis girlfriend. Now she’s bailed on him and he’s stuck with his neurotic mother.
The consequences of a Blue Pill conditioned mindset also start early. I’ve seen 10 year old boys despondent over not having a girlfriend. I’ve counseled a girl who’s former teenage boyfriend stabbed and killed her new boyfriend 32 times because she was his ONE. They get ONEitis because they are taught to be predisposed to it.
As your son moves into his teenage years that connection you began in his formative years should strengthen. You can begin to introduce him to Red Pill awareness, but in all likelihood you’ll notice him using his own Red Pill lens when it comes to dealing with girls. His grasping the fundaments of women’s dualistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy and how this will be used against him in the future is something imperative that he learns later.
This is the time to reinforce that Red Pill sensitivity and capitalize on his own awareness by introducing him to Red Pill ideas he wasn’t aware of. Bluntly, overtly declaring Red Pill truths might make sense to you, but plucking out bits of his own Red Pill observations and expanding on them in his teen years will probably be received better and more naturally.
One thing I know about teenage boys and girls is that if you try to tell them something profound they roll their eyes and blow you off, but if you wait for the right moment to let them come to that thing you want them to learn on their own then they’re receptive to it. Your demonstrating Red Pill awareness doesn’t stop when they’re teens.
Much of what I’ve outlined for raising boys would cross over into raising a daughter, however there are some differences in approach. Exemplifying a Red Pill ideal, and demonstrations of positive, dominantly masculine Frame control are still the highest priority, but more so is the modeled behavior of the girl’s mother toward you and that Frame. If your wife resists, ridicules or mocks your Frame, this is the lesson your daughter will be taught about masculinity. You must model her perceptions of masculinity while your wife models the aspects of femininity – for better or worse.
A lot of how you approach raising a daughter can be based on your Red Pill understanding of how to deal with women, and based on much of the same basic gender-complementary foundations. The same Game principles you would use with women are actually founded on behavior sets that little girls learn and enjoy while they’re growing up. Amused Mastery is a prime example of this.
You will notice that root level Hypergamy manifests itself in girls at a very young age. In Warren Farrell’s book, Why Men Are The Way They Are he notes that girls as young as 7 already have a a definition of the (celebrity) “boys they’d like to kiss and the boys they’d like to marry.” No doubt girls’ acculturation influences their preferences, but the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks archetypes are part of their mental firmware.
As a father, your primary role will be one of modeling the provider security seeking aspect of the Hypergamous equation. While that comfort and control is necessary it tends to be a trap for most Betas. The challenge most Beta fathers fail at is embracing and owning the very necessary Alpha / Dominant role that makes up the other side of that equation.
The challenge is exemplifying Amused Mastery with your daughter, but in such a way that it balances Alpha dominance and control with rapport, security and comfort. In my post Myth of the Good Guy I make the case that adult women don’t really look for this balance in the same man. Alphas are for fucking, Betas are for long term security, and men who think they can embody both are neither sought after nor really believable. The root of this AF/BB mental separation of Hypergamous purpose-specific men can be traced back to the impression of masculinity that woman’s father set for her in her formative years.
Lean too far toward Alpha dominance and you become the asshole abuser who domineered poor mom while she was growing up. Lean too far to the Beta, permissive, passive and feminine side of the spectrum and the future men in her life will be colored by your deferring to the feminine as authority – thus placing her in the role of having to create the security she never expects men to have a real command of.
The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself. The challenge of raising a girl is embodying the dominant masculine man you will eventually be proud to call your son in law. Your daughter needs to be able to identify that guy by comparing him to the masculine role you set for her.
Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.
If you were uncomfortable experimenting with Red Pill concepts while you were single, you’ll be even more so in raising a daughter. The most important impression you need to leave her with is that men and women are different, but complementary to the other. She needs to know that your masculine dominance is beneficial to both her and her mother, and your personal mastery of you conditions and environment as an aid to her and the family. She needs to understand that girls and women are, sometimes, excluded from male-spaces, particularly if you also have a son. In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
Maybe you should be prescriptive more often? Both YaReally and Andy were right in the last thread how an at best detailed description of “I did that and it worked”, personal experience, is in fact often better than some abstract theory with all it’s logic. It’s like demonstrate, not explicate.
Personally, I think you need both. First, personal experience may by a fluke or a minority of situations, and even if it is a majority and general truth, humans are diverse enough that general truths are rarely universal, and handling those other cases is just as important. Second, because of what I just said, exploring other ideas and concepts is needed and has many benefits, even if some, or even many of those ideas end up flopping. It is those ideas, even the dumb ones, that push us further in discovery of truth and the refining and improving of our… Read more »
And so, once again with feeling: A Dad is not a Mom. Too many Dads have been conditioned and told and lectured and even ordered by judges to just be Mom #2. At which they will suck. Acid test: when your child is old enough to disobey, do you discipline? Be firm? Bark if need be? Can you do it? Now: How does Mom react to that? If she doesn’t try to negate or neutralize you you’re not in bad shape. If she contradicts or countermands, especially in your presence, then you’d better be working on putting a proper Frame… Read more »
Rollo, what an excellent walk back you did in describing the early approach to red pill parenting (well before entering into a LTR with the mother) rather than walking on egg shells until the children “can handle it”. @ LH “It’s kinda difficult: The discussion would surely be better if it were about advancing the topics of interest and not only fights for hierarchies and ego-investments. But on the other hand it is also important we all (re-)connect to our masculine strengths and live them, for which this is also a playground.” “Maybe you should be prescriptive more often? Both… Read more »
Thanks for another great post Rollo. This one in particular hits home with me. I became RP aware when my son was 8 and daughter 12. Thankfully I’ve now had almost 2 years to demonstrate RP behaviors to them both after years of servitude to the FI. “”In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.”” This is so true. Even though I’m now not present everyday in their lives, (every 2nd weekend dad) at times I become the ‘masculine umpire’… Read more »
“Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses.” I have girls, so I’m around parents of other girls too. The men worship their daughters. Literally worship. She can do no wrong, she is going to be a successful ‘whatever’ when she grows up, and she’ll have kids and a wonderful husband that gives her everything she wants.… Read more »
Do any of you fathers have good feedback on promoting femininity and complementari-ness in their daughters?
My daughter is 23 and seems to accept my assertion that it is a valuable trait (even if a foreign concept) and will take it under advisement.
” Do any of you fathers have good feedback on promoting femininity and complementari-ness in their daughters?” @SJF I can say that raising my 2 daughters has been extremely rewarding. I’ve never encountered any problems while providing a masculine model for them, or while helping them to understand the importance of femininity. Rollo is 100% correct in that society is teaching a completely different program to boys and girls alike, but one thing I’ve been uncompromising on. is that I will never tolerate any ” outside ” influences being brought into the home I provide. So now that my oldest… Read more »
Oh, an aside- Rollo’s mentioned this before also: my 15 yo is starting to date. Her boyfriend is a straight A student and high school star soccer player. The guy is showing massive amounts of beta already. I watch the 2 of them interact and I can already see the frustration in my daughter. She wants him to LEAD. He doesn’t know how. I tell her all the time that she will run into a lot of that because ” men ” have changed. I counsel her to slow down and take her time because a man like her dad… Read more »
Blaximus, it’s cool you observing your girl and the boy she’s dating. Smart man.
As far as he’s concerned, I’m Omnipresent.
You should pull him aside and give him some tips. We all know they probably won’t last, but you could give him some tips. If he’s beta, he might listen to you out of fear, and you could coach him some. On down the road. Your daughter will have someone else, and you’ll have a Daniel-son to a Miagi. You never know, you might be an old man one day and need help and Daniel-son might be there because he would view you as a superior man and give a helping hand to the old man who stepped in when… Read more »
That sounds great Blaximus.
I couldn’t help but think about your good previously reported experiences (in having extended family men influences in your upbringing) as I read through Rollo’s essay. And look you you turned out as a man. (Pretty damn good in my assessment.)
Hey thanks SJF, Man, I cannot tell you how thankful I am that I had so many male influences growing up. I firmly believe it kept me out of serious trouble and made coping with the hard realities of living much easier. The voices and teachings ( along with the dirty jokes ) of the men in my formative years still ring in my ears even now. I always thought my dad was a great man, but not until years later did I really appreciate just how great he is. Okay, I must have gotten something in my eye talking… Read more »
benfromtexas ” You should pull him aside and give him some tips. We all know they probably won’t last, but you could give him some tips. If he’s beta, he might listen to you out of fear, and you could coach him some.” Lol, I’ve not gotten to the point where I’m willing to tell a young man how to date my daughter. I get your drift though. Right now dude is a bit intimidated by me. I don’t think I’m intimidating… when he comes to the house, my wife and stepdaughter fawn over him and joke and kid around… Read more »
Can’t blame you for that.
” Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and… Read more »
@Rollo – Wow, what a great set of recommendations and insights. I’m also humbled you used one of my comments, I’m not sure why, but it makes me want to take it even more seriously. A few thoughts: – You are so right that the only appreciation you will get as a father is internal, from your own sense of yourself. My question for everyone here? Is that enough? I finally cracked when my daughter was 24. At some point I needed a payback, some respect, some appreciation. We are not machines and we are social. While I think your… Read more »
I laugh about all this. Pussy is just pussy. The FI is 5h1t. I’m ethanol-enhanced and in the zone.
Daughters get to date after they are no longer dependent on Dad. Otherwise, they should be corralled.
@scribblerg “.. You are so right that the only appreciation you will get as a father is internal, from your own sense of yourself. My question for everyone here? Is that enough?” I don’t think I ever heard my father use the word ” appreciation ” referring to himself or his expectations. Yes, my appreciation is internal. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by expressions of appreciation from my girls ( even goddaughters ), but by the time I was 30 ( became a dad at 24 ) I figured out that it wasn’t about my family being outwardly appreciative so I… Read more »
Damn Rollo!!! Don’t get me talking about kids and parenting. I get diarrhea of the fingers.
@Blax – Dude, I love your commentary. It’s so rich and real, thanks. You’ve mentioned numerous times about male role models and I think so much of how you become a man has to do with your early experiences. Mine were very different. My Dad was a terrifying maniac who I literally thought might kill me and did life threatening things to me at least twice. I grew up watching him beat my two older brothers, one particularly mercilessly and I knew that was what was coming for me. I remember the night he stabbed my brother with a fork… Read more »
My son is 6. The FI indoctrination is already full swing. Today he was reading a story. In it, Merlin is now the bad guy and Morgan Le Fay is the hero. Another had Goldie Locks break into the bears house and she becomes best friends with baby bear, who naturally does what ever she tells him to. It’s really horific. I’ve started teaching my son about frame maintenance. Since he is pre-sexual, I simply teach him that nobody should disturb his frame. I’m keeping it very generic for the moment. I’m trying to teach him to be a rock.… Read more »
Wow. I wish I had something prophetic to say to all that you’ve typed.
… makes me ” get something in my eye ” yet again.
Some men have to go through absolute hell in life, but fire tempers steel. To survive and eventually thrive makes one more alive in many respects.
Thank you –
Relevant to child rearing, the single greatest resource I’ve ever seen is a small (very small and short) book called “To Train Up A Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl. It’s so good that it will cause problems for you and I say that because it caused problems for me. The central theme of the book (there are several others, “No Greater Joy” volumes I, II, and III that are the gist of question and answer correspondence) is the process of raising a child involves three things: training, discipline and tying heart-strings. It’s a three-legged stool that requires all three… Read more »
“Daughters get to date after they are no longer dependent on Dad. Otherwise, they should be corralled.”
Judging from the evidence dragged home, guys are “dating” themselves with new pairs of trainers. Not even the money for one movie date.
“.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked.” I cannot stress how vital this is for a boy to successfully transition into manhood. Many young men wander aimlessly and confused for years because they’re left utterly uncertainty as to when they become men, i.e. when they break off from their parents and assume full responsibility and authority for themselves. Initiation rituals are a fundamental aspect of the male experience, and if a boy’s father… Read more »
Does the book really advocate punishing 6 month olds with corporal punishment like the reviews indicate?
@ITTO NO. It doesn’t. You can read reviews by people who hate the Pearls and they aren’t pretty, but there are some good reviews as well. The Pearls have actually been dragged into court to testify as to what they teach and they’ve never been discredited. Debi Pearl wrote a book called “Created To Be His Helpmeet” that is the patriarchal wife’s guide to being a good wife and mother, a book that explains exactly what the Bible says about being a wife. It’s radically anti-feminist. So, read the reviews with a grain of salt because these people are hated… Read more »
“’I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.”
Fatherhood From a Man and not a tormented soul of reckless rage and emotional neglect.
What Rugby said.
This was an exceptional and important post for me, Rollo, and it was generous of you to stretch your usual ‘non-prescriptive’ boundaries to discuss and direct some very important aspects of the importance of RP parenting in an overwhelmingly fem-centric cultural environment. Thank you for that.
As I’ve noted in previous comment threads, I’m a single father of two sons—both under the age of 10. Reading TRM for almost 3 years has made me a better man and more positively masculine father to my children, already.
“Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU1vL3TsIis “The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvcpFTLZwrU “In fact it’s boon… Read more »
[…] Red Pill Parenting – Part II | […]
A rich topic indeed. I have one of each, 11 then 9 years old, bro and sis. For both of them, and the wife for that matter, frame is the origin of success for all that’s for sure. The further you go down the tracks the easier it is to be unflappable and that makes the whole show easier to run. Perhaps I am lucky or perhaps it is born of skill and determination but I essentially never get blow back from my wife on child rearing issues at this point. An exception was the other day, a heat of… Read more »
As a new father I’ve very much enjoyed this series on Red Pill parenting. I am struggling a bit though on the best way to “train” and discipline. My father was very physically abusive and did not “spare the rod”. While some things he did I think were necessary, some other things were definitely not and excessive. I’ve read much literature since about spanking and the psychological effects, etc. I’m all for strict discipline, especially since I have a son, but is there a better method that anyone has experience with besides spanking or corporal punishment? I don’t want my… Read more »
@seaman, re discipline. I learned even before I was RP a few methods that so far have been pretty good. for toddlers quiet time was the best. It is separate and distinct from “time out”. Say daughter goes off with some giant hissy fit etc, the behaviour is simply not acceptable. The first time it happens she gets a warning and a reminder of what is acceptable. If it happens again, there is not debate, there is no negotiation there is simply “quiet time”. The child would be sent to sit on the steps leading upstairs in our house in… Read more »
Post script: Time out as opposed to quiet time was for when they went way over the top and could not be calmed down. Time out was being sent to their / her room until she could calm down enough to even have a quiet time. sometimes they would be so far gone that to have them on the stairs causing a huge fuss was just plain disruptive to the rest of the squad. An important part of quiet time is that it is not a total shunning, the kid needs to be close enough to be heard but not… Read more »
Found the red pill a few years ago and ever since have been trying to use it on my kids. Son: Sometimes his mom won’t let him do or have things,and honestly, her response as to the reasoning says it all, “Because I said so.” So, for example, when she won’t let my son have a cookie, I’ll sneak him one and say, “Us guys have to stick together. Don’t tattle on me.” I’m giving him a small example of man code. I also teach him about how to win the teasing game. His sister knew how to tease when… Read more »
Men are the true romantics.
I try to create a healthy fear/respect of daddy for my daughters. For example, “Do I need to tell daddy about this when he gets home?”. I try to let him be the primary/more dreaded disciplinarian and emphasize that we need to ask him about plans and decisions we want to make. In my family growing up, when my dad deferred to my mom on a decision, it was clear that it wasn’t because he was abdicating authority, but delegating it because he was honoring her wisdom on the issue at hand. And it was never overtly spoken but it… Read more »
+1 for digging the prescriptive post.
I really worry about the affect school will have on my boys. I can’t find an all boys school anywhere. The zero tolerance to fighting thing is just way overboard IMO. I think it is another reflection of women’s solipsism not understanding that two boys can come to blows and still have a functional relationship afterwards. It might even exacerbate the bullying problem.
All the anti bullying campaigns have done is teach boys to bully like girls.
Emotional and manipulative.
We should ENCOURAGE our boys to fight.
I remember in elementary school we had a kid bullying us and other kids. So me and my buddies beat the shit out of him. Caught major flack from the school, but also got my first kiss. (From my first oneitis lol)
He never bullied us again.
Did you guys here about Playboy will no longer publish nude photos? What a joke.
Agent P…..nice work capturing the family dynamic. I especially liked the part about the wife needing to cool down, not just the kid. Watching women discipline children is like watching a train wreck.
Artisan Toad…….that’s an amazing metaphor for dads being present, the baby bird in the nest. I couldn’t articulate this when I was “negotiating” with my ex about why we should stay married (I know, it was ugly), but you have completely nailed it.
Catering to the wives of betas. If it’s a “lifestyle” mag and not a nude mag, then it can sit on the coffee table next to menshealth and not catch any flack from the wife.
Beta’s wife stamp of approval!
“He never bullied us again.”
Yeah exactly. Even if you don’t beat the shit out of the kid at least you get some respect. You need to let the other kids know you aren’t going to be walked on without a fight.
Still boobs though right?
They want it to be like an FHM. Bikinis and lingerie only.
My understanding is that playboy will directly compete with maxim.
So bikinis and such, but no nudes.
And lifestyle advice…”Help! My wife doesn’t want sex, what can I do to win her back?”
“When was the last time you had a date night? How often do you compliment her?”
@Ben, cool about the mentoring. Show him this link:
Wish I would have known about this prior to going to college.
Maxim is shit because it was run by women from the outset, it’s mission to be an alternative to Playboy for men too embarrassed to buy Playboy.
Playboy started to go to shit as soon as it was handed over to women. It was only a matter of time before it went full Maxim.
Do people actually read Maxim and Playboy anymore? I hear they come in these paper-like books that are called “magazines.” Huh, kind of interesting how our ancestors “read” porn.
“You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them.” Funny how timely this is for me. I’m actually writing a toast for my father as he’s retiring tomorrow. I am definitely going to stress the appreciation. I kind of resented him for a long time because he was never around and working all the time. The toast is going to be red pill as fuck. Going to tell him to put himself first. Find a mission. Self fulfillment. Don’t let Mom run his life. Poor guy is so beta, but he’s got Alpha in… Read more »
@Andy, I’d be interested to hear how that toast is received.
Playboy went wrong a long time ago already when they went with an interesting American social norm a good friend once explained to me:
There is a difference between “sexy” and “arousing” and “sexy” is ok in US mainstream culture while “arousing” is strictly forbidden.
Where Playboy went and were also things like Victoria’s Secret shows are is “sexy”, which is all about aesthetics but not really arousing (at least if you have seen tits before). There are way stronger visual attractions going right into the dick, but they are carefully avoided in this culture.
Lh, good point.
If playboy were smart they would of found the sweet spot between “sexy” and outright porn.
Increase the arousal, not make it PC.
Maybe “erotic” is the word I’m looking for.
@Rollo I’m in party mode right now (gathering poon for the winter) so I haven’t read this parenting article or Part 1 of it but just wanted to drop a thanks in advance for writing them ’cause I was one of the ones bugging you to, and I think your perspective on this is important because you’re a Red Pill guy pulling off what sounds like a normal family household (VS like Adam Lyons with his weird situation, or Style who has an agenda to sell out and give blue pill advice, or Tyler who I get the impression doesn’t… Read more »
@YaReally, honestly I’m hoping guys such as yourself or Christian McQueen will take this series to heart and pass on what you’ve learned from the moment your son or daughter exits the womb. This series, and this post in particular, was a lot of work for me, and I could honestly write a book based on Red Pill parenting (no plans yet, sorry). There’s so much to consider and while I was writing this post I kept coming up with different men’s circumstances and where they find themselves in life as a parent. I think, with all things, men need… Read more »
” I’m actually writing a toast for my father as he’s retiring tomorrow. I am definitely going to stress the appreciation. I kind of resented him for a long time because he was never around and working all the time.”
ALL ABOARD THE GODDAMN FEELS TRAIN:
man I gotta go e-mail my dad
Indeed. Though I think they would still have hit the problem of the death of print.
But the issue with “sexy” and “arousing” goes way deeper maybe: The “sexy” ideal is the “inaccessible goddess”, creating attraction off scarcity, distance and status. Maybe this paves the way towards the dead bedroom and wifey playing games with “no sex” already for the betas?
While I really appreciate the parenting advice given on this thread, remember that you and your family always exist in a social context. In my case, early on, my now ex-wife would overtly overrule my attempts to set boundaries and be disciplined with my daughter when we were still together, even though it worked. It became ridiculous at a certain point. We split when the kid was just about to turn 5 but I lived in the same town and was a constant force in her life until the ex moved her 40 miles way to stop this due to… Read more »
lol never seen that before. I hope I don’t make the poor guy cry.
Yareally using playboy’s cutting nudes to game with.
I’ve got a lot to learn.
“Now I was divorced and alienated throughout my daughter’s teen years, so it’s different from married guys. But my ex undermined my authority when I was in the home utterly, non-stop.” @scribbleberg I watch my friends wives do this and it just enrages me. So fucking disrespectful. One of these days I’m totally going to snap and tell them off. When I get home my wife defers most of the discipline to me. Sometimes she can’t stop herself and she freaks out, but for the most part I think she appreciates having the break from being a hard ass. She… Read more »
@scribblerg, I can definitely relate to that. My wife has less control over my kids than I do because she isn’t consistent. I tell her she knows what works because she’s watched Super Nanny many times, but the “nurture gene” gets in the way. Plus, most women don’t know how to control their tone, so although to women they think they are dishing out discipline, their tone is revealing desperation, frustration, and a lack of resolve. Kids can sense the difference in tone and act accordingly.
@YaReally, that vid is awesome. One man’s song reaching thousands of audience members and raining down red pill awareness of the plight of men. Couple of the women in the audience seems to be holding back tears to the realizations revealed.
@Rollo, Ok, I agree with the reviews, this is one of your top posts Rollo. I have to say, this post seems to be answering a question you asked (I think) in a comment section 4-5 posts ago. The question revolved around whether or not the FI would ever “go away” or if men/fathers would have to essentially beat it back. …I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the… Read more »
@Jeremy, Andy, Glenn, as I stated in this essay you will never be appreciated for your role as a father in a social order that’s saturated in the FI. Thus you need to find your parenting intrinsically rewarding; sometimes it’ll just be you and God who appreciate some evidence of your influence on your kids. While Mrs. Tomassi is fully aware of my books and writing and my involvement in TRP, my daughter is not. I’ll probably explain most of it to her and introduce her to my books when she’s in college, but I’ve always kept her ignorant and… Read more »
@Ben, thanks for those grocery store tips too. Chatted up a nice looking girl a few weeks back. Spotted her enter a different check out line, I switched mine to right behind her. She puts her stuff down and puts the little divider stick down. I put my one item on her side. She looks at me. I smirk, then put it back on the correct side and open. Just another method for you.
“This FI influence starts soooo early, earlier than anyone can possibly grasp.”
In its original form, the Tender Years Doctrine only covered the the first four years. At the age of five default custody returned to the father.
Those first four years were all it took for women to start instilling the FI as the dominant paradigm into the general culture.
I will definitely send an update. My guess is my Mom might have a sour face. haha.
Suggestion: Let’s draw a circle around the “corporal punishment” thing. It’s a distraction, let the mommy-parent websites bloviate about it. And believe me they do. Fall into that trap here and it’s concern troll city. The thread will be forever hijacked and branded as the “Dads beat your kids” site. So let’s not got there anymore. We are talking about discipline, not the same thing at all. FWIW if you have sufficient Frame no swatting will ever be needed. The key is acting like you MIGHT do something awful. Which in my case was what I call barking: let a… Read more »
If you have sufficient frame, all you need is a look of disappointment. I’ve watched dads quiet down 3 year olds with a simple look.
The real nature of the human male cannot be changed. No amount of drugs, shame, or contrived social convention has or will change our innate constitution. Not even propaganda that implores men to wonder if they should be more like women will change men. Medical disfigurements and mutations cannot supersede the power of nature. Feminism seeks to mutilate masculinity while feigning masculine characteristics. The feminist attempt to usurp male strength and initiative is pathetic as she cannot alter the nature of the X – Y chromosome dynamic and its effects. Her failure to do so is made more blatant by… Read more »
… Not to mention a very awkward parental introduction.
While the way of raising boys Rollo described seems right to me, I’m not so sure you’ll really create alphas. Being alpha isn’t about obeying or doing what someone else thinks is good for you. Being alpha is about breaking rules and not let anyone tell you what to do. Of course you can question if you want an alpha son, because it may well be some lazy bastard, unable to conform or submit to anything, not school and all that especially. So the question might be, if you want your son to be easy to handle for you and… Read more »
@lh, don’t confuse Red Pill parenting with raising an Alpha son. Ideally that’d be great, but think more of exemplifying Red Pill awareness. Also, you must break the preconception that Alpha is a demographic. Alpha is a mindset. My brother is what you’d likely call a self-important Alpha. Egotistical? At times, but his egotism ends with his son. Why? Because his son is an extension of himself and his ego. You can be caring, supportive, nurturing, etc. in an Alpha context. I forget who it was, but there was a comment on one of the previous posts about a father… Read more »
@Rollo “@YaReally, honestly I’m hoping guys such as yourself or Christian McQueen will take this series to heart and pass on what you’ve learned from the moment your son or daughter exits the womb.” Not just our own kids, because who knows when/if I’ll reproduce, I could get hit by a train tomorrow. But as a guy with social circles where my friends are hitting the age of having kids, I’m going to be the “cool uncle YaReally” to a number of kids and their fathers respect my opinion on this shit (since some of them MET their girls because… Read more »
A lot of the frustration here seems to stem from a lack of “appreciation”. Who is entitled to appreciation? Who is obligated to show appreciation? Does “appreciation” really accomplish anything? Being perfectly honest with myself, I have come to the realization that I really do not give a shit about appreciation. This is not a reaction, it is a realization. I am aware that I really do not give a rats ass if anyone “appreciates” me and my efforts or not. I am also aware that I never did. So what do I give a damn about? I give a… Read more »
@NBTM, ‘appreciation’ is a loose term in this sense. It’s not appreciation in the “warm fuzzy, you’re great Dad, pat on the back” respect so much as it’s “your very presence is entirely superfluous, but if you’re not present you’re an asshole” respect.
As I stated in the last post, it is the height of gender supremacism for the FI to be so arrogant to promote the idea that women make equally good fathers (masculine role modelers) as men. Thus your influence as a man isn’t really need so it isn’t appreciated.
Yes Rollo, but from my own experience overpowering the mother, dominating her, is a key experience. If you can deal with your mothers manipulations etc., you’ll be able do deal with almost every shit women do.
To YaReally’s point (and I’ll get to this in the Mentoring post) the reason I stressed exclusively male-space as being imperative to a son’s development is because it’s needed to escape the overbearing influence of feminine primacy.
I got into this in the Male Space essay, but one reason there is such a determined push to get women into those male spaces is because the FI can’t afford to have men talk amongst themselves uninfluenced by the feminine. That influence pits men against each other and limits a solidarity that would threaten the control of feminine primacy.
Do mothers shit-test their sons?
A mothers shit-tests are different. But it’s mothers who make betas or try to.
@Rollo I think part of the reason Alpha is seen as a demographic does have some merit. Here you mention that RP awareness should be taught from day one to a child, and I agree. It’s been well known by developmental psychologists for a while that your values and system of morality are well established by 7 years old. It is almost impossible to change those things after they’ve been written; they’re almost carved in stone. If you were raised extremely Beta the way I was, despite having a few small Alpha tendencies here and there, then the psychological changes… Read more »
Do mothers shit-test their sons?
Yes. My mother still does to this day whenever I talk to her.
@Sun, there will always be a desire in men and women to characterize Alpha in terms of what best suits themselves, or in terms of what they think should best serve their concept of what a pro-social role for an Alpha should look like. The first inclination is to associate Alpha with attributes of virtue, honor, leader-of-men, and all of the qualities that seem to make him superior in a pro-social respect. The other impulse is to characterize Alpha as anti-social, egotistical and associate it with Dark Triad aspects. Thus the definition of Alpha becomes negative so can those individualistic… Read more »
“As a result she’s already getting into heated debates with her girlfriends about complementarity vs. egalitarianism in gender issues.”
That has to be immensely satisfying. I wish I had a daughter. I just didn’t want to end up with 3 boys. haha.
“Anti-social, criminal gang leaders . . .”
Criminal gangs are social organizations.
I think you and Sun are talking past each other. He was trying to make the point that early childhood experiences make it difficult to adopt the self as the MPO, and affect other necessary base aspects of alpha behaviors. Hence, he’s trying to say that there is a demographic that is more easily capable of Alpha, and one that is not.
I don’t think he was trying to speak to the definition of Alpha.
“A mothers shit-tests are different. But it’s mothers who make betas or try to.”
Here’s a classic quote from my Mom:
“I don’t know why you can’t find girlfriends. You are such nice boys!”
God anytime I brought a girlfriend over she would shit test me so bad. Ugh, it was unbearable. Like “I can control your man better than you can” type shit… I finally got the balls to put a stop to that 10 years ago or so.
I guess I never experienced a lot of that because I emotionally distanced myself from my mom at such an early age. I’d still get her saying things like that quote you made though, but I’d just roll my eyes at that.
Jeremy is correct. I think you missed my point. It wasn’t about defining it but about men who are actually capable of internalizing the attitudes commonly associated with it and what their upbringing will have to do with the capacity to manifest the thinking and behaviors required. That aspect does create a demographic that is more readily capable of it and a demographic that is not.
My mother shit tests. Especially when I first took the red pill. She’s backed way off now and basically falls in line with my frame. Hell, she even apologizes to me when she knows she pushed to hard, all I do is give her a disappointed look. She’s like a hurricane of emotions, still she’s easy to handle. I just game her really. Tease her like I do any other girl, hold her accountable to a certain level of sanity. After the red pill I almost immediately took the alpha of the family spot from my dad. Now they all… Read more »
@Rollo, another thing I’ve done with my son is to sit down with him and watch television with him (I restrict television viewing time) and point out all the times where men are made to look like fools in the commercials. He’s only eight, so he doesn’t fully grasp the nuances, but at least the basics of blue pill programming are revealed to him.
Can you tell me if this is where I can ask a question or reply? Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:56:36 +0000 To: firstname.lastname@example.org
How might I get in contact with you?
Hmmmm…. I need clarification. Rollo said- You can be caring, supportive, nurturing, etc. in an Alpha context. I forget who it was, but there was a comment on one of the previous posts about a father who forced his young son to climb over some rocks on a jetty to get to him so they could fish. He seemed like an uncaring asshole, but the boy learned he could do something he didn’t think he could do because that Alpha (?) father insisted he do it. I agree. lh said- Yes Rollo, but from my own experience overpowering the mother,… Read more »
@NBTM – Don’t be obtuse – I mean respect as well. Appreciation is perhaps the wrong word but that is what I mean. I don’t expect to be thrown a parade, just don’t shit down my throat, yeah? My daughter became incredibly denigrating and vicious to me, despite always having been there for her and spending approx 400k providing for her. When I asked her if the fact that I did my best to be there and spent all that money on her meant she owed me some respect she said, “No, it doesn’t.”. Let’s not get stuck down a… Read more »
You need to address if or how you let the woman in to your parenting mindset.
Let’s assume your frame is as tight as it can be.
Do you speak with the women about setting examples (play along with your idea of parenting, if you will) or do your fully rely on your capabilities to play both the woman and the child covertly?
@Scribblerg, that’s sad about your daughter doing that. She’ll probably have an unsatisfying marriage.
I’ve noticed in my strong-willed, stubborn 6-year-old daughter that she doesn’t accept/want as much affection/hugs from me as my son does, even though we’re real close and have a great relationship. Reminds me of her mother, minus the great relationship.
I alluded to “duty” as what one owes to the being you have sired. That’s it. As opposed to whatever-the-fuck concepts of “duty” Society, or the FI, or Churchians, or the Chairman Mao Anarcho-syndicalist commune demand of us. Fuck that shite. That said, the duty only goes so far. When they turn on you, your duty is discharged, and from that point they are on their own. Easy to say, hard to accept or comprehend. Can take years, maybe never, it’s a real thing, no snark or sarc. I’ve been front row and center, seen it, thus far avoided it… Read more »
I thought I didn’t have much to contribute to the comments this time as I don’t have (nor want) kids. But the topic of moms shit testing came up. Yes, yes they do. I have this one stuck in my mind from around 15 years ago – my mom shit test my (older) brother with something along the lines of “you should study more, your brother [me] has better grades than you”. I was in the room doing something else and found it pretty offensive, so I intervened “I’m not a weapon to be thrown at my own brother”. I’m… Read more »
This past Monday I took the family pumpkin picking at a farm/general store about 30 miles from home. It’s kind of a routine thing that starts this time of year. Wife and daughters pick their pumpkins and I get fresh apples from the orchard. In clearings within the pumpkin patches, there are old tractors and an early 60’s pickup truck staged for pictures and for kids to play on. Well, there was a group of boys playing in the bed of the pickup with about 8 or 9 moms standing nearby mostly gazing into their cell phones. Oddly, there were… Read more »
@IAS, mom’s number one shit test:
“You’re SO much like your father, do you know that!”
P.S. Anybody wanted to give their son a Cliff’s Notes shortcut on how men are made to look the fool in a FI society, just do a YouTube search for “male bashing commercials” and check out the first one listed with 21 commercial examples compiled into one play list.
@Fred – Amen, brother. The Red Pill helped me be okay with it. I am not even angry at my daughter anymore. She was alienated from me by her mom and stepdad (now ex-stepdad) and this is the consequence. But I won’t be shit on. Not after all I did. It took a long time to get there…And a lot of pain and suffering.
“Perhaps all you “uber alpha 10 inch cocked ripped fundo christian men of steel™” can give without getting forever, but this mere mortal cannot.”
I don’t fault anyone for demanding respect from someone you sacrificed for. I can see that appreciation might come later or not at all, but there’s no way you should settle for being disrespected. IMO
I could honestly write a book based on Red Pill parenting (no plans yet, sorry)
You (best) or somebody needs to write the book on RP LTR/marriage/parenting which would include recent topics here such as vetting and parenting. On r/asktrp a father with a 3 year old was asking for advice on his relationship with his wife. He was told that he needed to practice “bitch management”, which he took to mean to have shouting matches before storming out of the house.