Red Pill Parenting – Part II

Father-Son1

What I’m about to detail here will be a revolutionary act; I’m going to give men some prescriptive advice on how I believe they should go about raising their children from a Red Pill perspective. As most of my readers know I do my best to provide observations and connect dots, from there I expect men (and women) to form their own takes on what I’m seeing and either challenge those observations or develop some actionable practice that best suits their own circumstances.

I’ll be breaking that protocol here, but the premise still applies; what I think might be universally applicable to raising and mentoring the next generation may need to be modified for what your experience and circumstances dictate.

That said, the very idea that I would inform or instruct men (and by association women) on how I think a healthier, more durable generation of men might be developed in a Red Pill awareness is tantamount to being a hate crime today. My suggesting that boys and girls would benefit greatly from a Red Pill aware father is a frightening, seditionary act in a feminine-primary social order.

As things stand on a societal level now, just the mention of Red Pill truths in casual conversation will engender either ridicule or hostility. As Red Pill awareness spreads it will be considered subversive, particularly in a social order founded on the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primary social prioritization.

I don’t have too much positive to say about Roosh these days, but one thing I had to agree with was his recent assessment of how it’s necessary for men to meet in secret gatherings and maintain (as best as possible) a state of constant anonymity if they wish to discuss anything counter to feminine-primary social doctrine. Main stream media in feminine-primary society will characterize this need for anonymity as indicative of cowardice or a lack of conviction; bitter men just contenting themselves in their private anger and poisoning the minds of whomever will listen to them.

They need this characterization for now because men have something to lose. They fear having their bread taken away from them – the same bread that feminine-primary society expects men to provide the very women who would use it to extort a desired complacency from men. Cowardice is rooted in the fear of having something to lose. Once men become largely indifferent to that bread being forthcoming, that’s either when they snap, or that’s when they start a revolution.

ScribblerG (a.k.a. Glenn) had a good reminder for men in the last thread:

Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. At best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself.

I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later, wondering if my daughter would ever realize all I sacrificed to provide for her and her mom? I’d wonder if she’d ever get that I sacrificed being as close to her as her mother is to her for her wellbeing? That her closeness with her mom as a result of having a stay at home mom until she was 5 was a consequence of my efforts, not her Mom’s?

Guess what – nobody wants to hear it. Nobody gives a shit what sacrifices you make to be a good father and provider – it’s all about Mom. It’s all about the kids. Dad’s are at best seen as second best Moms most of the time. And even when we are “in charge”, we can be dismissed as superfluous in myriad ways.

Many men adapt by becoming second mothers and wives in the household – and the entire culture encourages this. Try being a traditional male at parent teacher night or at the pre-school or even the Boy Scout troop…Fatherhood and a family is not what it once was either. Trust me, learn from my experience. Your kids will very likely not appreciate all you’ve done for them.

Of course, I excuse all the fundo-christian-demi-god-uber-alpha-ripped-11 inch cock-men of steel™ here from this commentary. For you guys, it’s 1956 and your life is like Wally and the Beav…

Just like men subscribe to two sets of books – old and new social rule sets that contradict the other – I think our ideas of marriage fall into this same contradiction. When marriage was a social contract and not so much a legal one involving the state, the old set of books applied well to that institution. This old set of rules about marriage and what men could expect from that largely socially-enforced institution worked well and in a complementary paradigm. From the Little House on the Prairie days up to the post-war era, the first set of books worked well with regard to marriage and fatherhood.

After the sexual revolution, the second set of books took social preeminence. Optimizing Hypergamy and all of the social and legal paradigms that make it the foundation of our present social order took priority. Yet, both men and women still cling to the old order, the first set of rules when it comes to a man’s role as a husband and a father, and simultaneously expect him to adopt and promote the feminine-primary interests of the new feminine-primary order.

Fathers are expected to follow the edicts of conventional masculinity with regards to their provisioning for a family, but are also expected to adopt, embrace and internalize their popularized role of being superfluous, ridiculous or even angry and abusively resistant to the second set of rules.

In other words, the expectation is that he should  be happy in his sacrificial role of provider, happy in his lack of appreciation for it or his presence, and happy to have the ‘village’ of society raise his children into the next crop of confused, frustrated adults while he’s doing it. He should be happy in his presence being devalued, but be held responsible for his lack of presence that his sacrifices demands.

Oh, and he should also feel a sense of smug pride when he see another man being pilloried for the same lack of his superfluous presence in his family’s life.

Raising Kids

I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.

You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them. Your presence is only as superfluous as you allow it to be. While you will never be appreciated for it in any measurable sense, you will be liable for it, so my advice is to make the most of it in a Red Pill respect. Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order. If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding.

Understand now, the Feminine Imperative wants you to be despondent about your role.

Understand this, your presence, your influence, will only be as valuable or as appreciated as you are willing to make it to yourself. Your Red Pill aware influence in your kids’ lives needs to matter to you first, because it will never be appreciated in your time, and in fact will be actively, hostilely, be resisted by a world saturated in feminine-primacy.

Being a mother and birthing a child is a constantly lauded position today. By virtue of being a mother, women are rewarded and respected in society. Men must add fatherhood to their burden of performance just to avoid the societal default of being vilified.

The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.

In Preventive Medicine I detail part of our present feminine-primary conditioning and how the imperative raises boys to be Betas and girls to be caricatures of Strong Independent Women®. Part of this was based on the essay Teach Your Children Well and the early ages at which this begins. The first, most primary truth you need to accept as a father is that if you don’t teach your children Red Pill truths there is an entire western(izing) world that is already established to raise them in your absence.

‘The Village’ will raise your kids if you don’t. You will be resisted, you will be ridiculed, you will be accused of every thought-crime to the point of being dragged away to jail in your imparting Red Pill awareness (in the future I expect it to be equated with child abuse). The Village will teach your boys from the most impressionable ages (5 years old) to loath their maleness, to feel shame for being less perfect than girls and to want to remake their gender-identity more like girls.

The Village will raise your daughters to perpetuate the same cycle that devalues conventional masculinity, the same cycle that considers men’s presence as superfluous and their sacrifices as granted expectations. It will raise your daughters to over-inflate their sense of worth with unearned confidence at the expense of boys as their foils. It will teach them to openly embrace Hypergamy as their highest authority and to disrespect anything resembling masculinity as more than some silly anachronism.

The good news is that for all of these efforts in social engineering, the Feminine Imperative is still confounded by basic biology and the psychological firmware evolved into us over millennia. That basic root reality is your greatest advantage as a father.

Raising Boys

I’m often asked when I believe would be the best time to introduce a boy to the Red Pill. A lot of guys with teenage sons want to hand them a copy of The Rational Male before they hit 18, or maybe when they’re 15, some even say 12 is really a good time. While it’s flattering for me to hear men tell me how they gave their teenage sons a copy of my book, I have to think that this is too late.

I’ve been a father to a teenage daughter for a while now and in my 20’s I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.

By the time that kid is 10 they’ve already internalized the stereotypes and social conditioning of the Blue Pill and they will start parroting these memes and behaving and believing in accordance with that conditioning. By the time they are in their tweens and beginning to socially interact with the opposite sex, the Blue Pill feminine-primary conditioning will be evident to any man with a Red Pill lens to hear and see it. That Blue Pill internalized ideology will seem natural and logical to them even though they couldn’t tell you how they came to their formative beliefs.

The time to start exemplifying Red Pill awareness in a parental capacity is before you even have kids. As I detailed in the first of these posts, an internalized Game that results from strong Red Pill awareness and a positive, dominant Frame control are imperative before you even consider monogamy. That Frame becomes the foundation for your parenting when your children come along.

I realize this isn’t exactly helpful for men who came to Red Pill awareness after their kids were in their teens, but it needs to be addressed for men considering becoming a father. Ideally you want to impart that same Red Pill awareness during a boy’s formative years. Children completely lack the capacity for abstract thought until their brains fully form and they learn to develop it. The age of 5 is the time when kids are most impressionable and learn the most, but they do so by watching behavior. So it’s imperative for a Red Pill father to demonstrate positive, conventional masculinity during these years.

Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.

Within this male-space your son needs to learn about his eventual burden of performance.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked. This is important because it not only teaches him to value his masculinity, but also to accept the responsibilities of his burden of performance.

Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.

He needs to learn that men and women are different and only deserving of earned respect, not a default respect granted to the female sex. Eventually he needs to learn to accept his own dominance and mastery in a world that will tell him his sex is a scourge on society.

Your presence in his life is an absolute necessity if you are to thwart the efforts of fem-centrism. I was asked about Red Pill fathering in my last Christian McQueen interview and my first inclination was to say do things with your son. Even if that’s playing chess, being the man, his model for masculinity is vitally important and to impart this to him you need to have a mutual purpose. As I’ve written before, women talk, men do. Men get together socially with a purpose, an action, a hobby, a sport, a creative endeavor, etc. and then they communicate while working towards that purpose.

Your son must learn this from a very early age, particularly when he’s likely to be forced into feminine-primary social structures and conditioned to communicate like girls do in school as well as in popular media. One of the tragedies of our age is a generation of Blue Pill men raising their sons to adopt feminine-primary communication preferences because they themselves had no experience with conventional masculinity. They can’t teach what they don’t understand.

Demonstrate, do not explicate is true of dealing with women, but it is also an imperative of Red Pill parenting. Your son (and daughter) needs to see his mother’s deference to your dominant Frame and beneficent authority. He needs to understand on a rudimentary level that his mother responds to your positively masculine Frame. Again this is imperative since your kids will see a much different narrative being displayed in popular culture and their schooling.

Show him how a man presents himself, how a man reacts to a threat, how a man commands a dog, how a man interacts with, and helps, other men he values. Do not think that you’ll start teaching him Red Pill awareness when he’s old enough to understand it. By then it’s too late, he’s resistant to it and thinks his Beta Game is more appropriate. Your son will follow your lead, but that must start from day one, not age 12. I have a good friend now who’s 16 year old son is literally following the same path his Beta father; he’s moved in with his estranged ex wife because he was closer to his ONEitis girlfriend. Now she’s bailed on him and he’s stuck with his neurotic mother.

The consequences of a Blue Pill conditioned mindset also start early. I’ve seen 10 year old boys despondent over not having a girlfriend. I’ve counseled a girl who’s former teenage boyfriend stabbed and killed her new boyfriend 32 times because she was his ONE. They get ONEitis because they are taught to be predisposed to it.

As your son moves into his teenage years that connection you began in his formative years should strengthen. You can begin to introduce him to Red Pill awareness, but in all likelihood you’ll notice him using his own Red Pill lens when it comes to dealing with girls. His grasping the fundaments of women’s dualistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy and how this will be used against him in the future is something imperative that he learns later.

This is the time to reinforce that Red Pill sensitivity and capitalize on his own awareness by introducing him to Red Pill ideas he wasn’t aware of. Bluntly, overtly declaring Red Pill truths might make sense to you, but plucking out bits of his own Red Pill observations and expanding on them in his teen years will probably be received better and more naturally.

One thing I know about teenage boys and girls is that if you try to tell them something profound they roll their eyes and blow you off, but if you wait for the right moment to let them come to that thing you want them to learn on their own then they’re receptive to it. Your demonstrating Red Pill awareness doesn’t stop when they’re teens.

Raising Girls

Much of what I’ve outlined for raising boys would cross over into raising a daughter, however there are some differences in approach. Exemplifying a Red Pill ideal, and demonstrations of positive, dominantly masculine Frame control are still the highest priority, but more so is the modeled behavior of the girl’s mother toward you and that Frame. If your wife resists, ridicules or mocks your Frame, this is the lesson your daughter will be taught about masculinity. You must model her perceptions of masculinity while your wife models the aspects of femininity – for better or worse.

A lot of how you approach raising a daughter can be based on your Red Pill understanding of how to deal with women, and based on much of the same basic gender-complementary foundations. The same Game principles you would use with women are actually founded on behavior sets that little girls learn and enjoy while they’re growing up. Amused Mastery is a prime example of this.

You will notice that root level Hypergamy manifests itself in girls at a very young age. In Warren Farrell’s book, Why Men Are The Way They Are he notes that girls as young as 7 already have a a definition of the (celebrity) “boys they’d like to kiss and the boys they’d like to marry.” No doubt girls’ acculturation influences their preferences, but the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks archetypes are part of their mental firmware.

As a father, your primary role will be one of modeling the provider security seeking aspect of the Hypergamous equation. While that comfort and control is necessary it tends to be a trap for most Betas. The challenge most Beta fathers fail at is embracing and owning the very necessary Alpha / Dominant role that makes up the other side of that equation.

The challenge is exemplifying Amused Mastery with your daughter, but in such a way that it balances Alpha dominance and control with rapport, security and comfort. In my post Myth of the Good Guy I make the case that adult women don’t really look for this balance in the same man. Alphas are for fucking, Betas are for long term security, and men who think they can embody both are neither sought after nor really believable. The root of this AF/BB mental separation of Hypergamous purpose-specific men can be traced back to the impression of masculinity that woman’s father set for her in her formative years.

Lean too far toward Alpha dominance and you become the asshole abuser who domineered poor mom while she was growing up. Lean too far to the Beta, permissive, passive and feminine side of the spectrum and the future men in her life will be colored by your deferring to the feminine as authority – thus placing her in the role of having to create the security she never expects men to have a real command of.

The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself. The challenge of raising a girl is embodying the dominant masculine man you will eventually be proud to call your son in law. Your daughter needs to be able to identify that guy by comparing him to the masculine role you set for her.

Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.

If you were uncomfortable experimenting with Red Pill concepts while you were single, you’ll be even more so in raising a daughter. The most important impression you need to leave her with is that men and women are different, but complementary to the other. She needs to know that your masculine dominance is beneficial to both her and her mother, and your personal mastery of you conditions and environment as an aid to her and the family. She needs to understand that girls and women are, sometimes, excluded from male-spaces, particularly if you also have a son. In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

505 comments on “Red Pill Parenting – Part II

  1. @teddj4g
    “Oh, and you only need 1 four leaf clover to get good luck. ;)”

    That’s a cute sentiment. Tell it to these guys:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/search?q=virgin&restrict_sr=on

    And:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/comments/2xk74e/rtheredpill_was_right_im_a_beta_and_a_loser/

    “I’m very short, think bottom 10% statistically. I used to be fat and now have massive ugly scars running through my body making my skin look like patched-up fabric.”

    “The only thing going for me is a passion for art and a 6-figure career. But it doesn’t matter. I sit here alone with my paycheck and bitter memories of trying to be witty/engaging/interesting, asking out tons of girls and getting rejected each time.”

    Lemme know how the whole “guys should just have high standards and not be desperate enough to bang girls that can’t quote the encyclopaedia like my unicorn wife” advice pans out for these guys.

    PUA can help these guys get past this shit if they decide they want to put in the work and can work on letting go of the victim mindset and quit listening to people telling them that shit they’ll never have is what they need to get a girlfriend instead of shit they can develop over time from just talking to people.

    The rest of society sweeps these guys under the rug as a “small minority” and hopes they just die alone and don’t take anyone with them Elliot Rogers style.

    And this isn’t even the worst community for this out there. There are places I don’t even want to link because just giving them attention sends them spiraling.

    I got a buddy who can’t even jack off ’cause he has so many negative shameful associations with it from all his lonely years jacking off as a teenager/young adult without knowing how to interact with girls.

    No one offers these guys help except “hit the gym and make money brah”.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/comments/1n4ttm/i_fucking_hate_rtheredpill/

    This guy’s hate of the TRP forums is why the TRP is retarded. They’re bought into a lot of bullshit beliefs because they don’t go out and challenge their limiting beliefs. So you get guys like this “Another person commented that out of all men, Asian men are at the bottom. More commenters posted about how they are so thankful that Asian men are so pathetic, because they get so much Asian “pussy” because of it.”

    I’ve met asians who do pickup who get laid no problem, with hot white chicks. Same with short guys etc. You see this shit if you go out a lot and practice game and look for it and meet these guys and hang around them and see what pickup concepts they’re consciously or subconsciously executing that’s setting them apart from the stereotypes.

    But they read these shitty negative beliefs about how asians can’t get pussy and it just confirms their negative beliefs and lets them spiral further and further. These guys naturally want to hyperfocus on any excuse people will give them because the alternative is hard as fuck and scary and there’s no guidance in most places for them and no one to help them out.

    Meanwhile if they went to a PUA forum they’d find asian dudes like Kong from Simple Pickup telling them that shit doesn’t matter because it DOESN’T. If that guy could hang out with some asian dudes I’ve met for a few months their mindsets would probably rub off on him and he might get leverage to get out of his headspace.

    “I don’t give a shit who I hurt. Nobody gives a shit about how much I hurt every day. They just feed me some random bullshit in hopes that it would “reach” me and keep me alive longer. I’m completely numb to everything they say now.”

    This guy can’t even find a clover field let along find that four leafed clover for good luck winky-face.

    Most of the dudes in that forum will reject Red Pill help because it’s solution is “be Chad Thundercock brah looks and money matter just go spend years trying to get those and it’ll magically happen”. PUA is giving guys a really simple little set of steps that anyone can execute and saying “just execute these over and over and write your Field Reports and the community will try to help you and over time you can do better than you’re doing now”.

    These guys are EVERYWHERE. They hide it because they’ve learned to, but guys need help. Even a lot of the ones that turn to a hermit life of xbox and porn are still depressed and CRAVING the feeling of a girl legitimately liking them. Sometimes not even fucking them, just HOLDING HANDS and shit.

    Who’s gonna help these guys? Are these guys gonna’ tell some chick who shows interest in them “you don’t know enough about politics sorry bye” and walk away? No way lol

    1. Now that I will agree with.

      No amount of these guys getting into shape is going to offset their depressive self-images. The problem with guys like this is the Eliot Rodger effect. They ‘try’ PUA and ‘try’ to apply that headspace and get rejected, even more crushingly than they had when they had no idea of what TRP was.

      So they go Rodger and join PUA Hate and go on their crusades against PUA or whatever it was that led to that crushing rejection. It wasn’t just Eliot’s belief in physical limitations; it was also his half-hearted investment in the hope that PUA gave him.

      Either way, guys who want the quick fix, magic formula to solve their girl problems are Children with Dynamite when they expect it to happen overnight. That doesn’t happen in either the gym or at a PUA seminar, real change takes time and investment.

      Forever Alones of any stripe generally lack the social intelligence and the mental maturity to put in the kind of effort necessary to change their lives.

  2. @rollo,
    So per above, my message to my son, this is a parenting thread after all, is to put in the work if they want the good outcome.

    The lesson to my son is all the basics, get in shape, have some style, approach like there’s no tomorrow and adopt a mindset for success. The little guy is only eleven, but he’s overcome some big challenges in his life already in the educational environment, he has attained quantifiable success that is demonstrable simply through hard work and some good coaching by his school. so I am lucky because I’ll always have a lesson I can point to for him that says, “if you do the hard work, you can change the outcome”.

    It’s done miracles for his self confidence too. This of course can be the cornerstone of game, knowing that you are likely to succeed eventually and it’s not luck, it’s mostly just work.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am not teaching my son game right now explicitly, I am laying groundwork for him so when the time comes, the pieces will all be in place. Currently, he has no interest in chicks unless they can crush it in Call of Duty. But right now he does need to understand the FI and why chicks act crazy and are judged by entirely different standards than boys are.

  3. Wow! It’s like the PUA is giving out philosophical life advice! But it would actually really help many of the Christian young single men that are conditioned their whole life to be a certain way… and then to be happy they got a girl (finally) on her time table. And then they live so many years with sex issues 🙁

    Imagine the impact of a PUA like that one in that last video telling a group of single Christian men who were ready to hear the message about why they mess up so much with women. Especially that part about the leaf blowing in the wind for the first 20 years of their life! hmmm

  4. Just came across this tidbit via Twitter (tagged you in it, Rollo): https://youtu.be/PRY-6Sv9H94

    REPORT: WHY MEN ARE GIVING UP ON MARRIAGE
    Marriages in U.S. now at record low – and it’s by design!

    by KIT DANIELS | INFOWARS.COM | OCTOBER 17, 2015

    More and more men are giving up on marriage.

    A Catholic pastor recently revealed he’s only performing five marriages a year, down from 35 over 25 years ago.

  5. Y’all tearing this comment section up!!! Great conversations.

    YaReally – that reddit is horrifying.

    ” Lemme know how the whole “guys should just have high standards and not be desperate enough to bang girls that can’t quote the encyclopaedia like my unicorn wife” advice pans out for these guys.

    PUA can help these guys get past this shit if they decide they want to put in the work and can work on letting go of the victim mindset and quit listening to people telling them that shit they’ll never have is what they need to get a girlfriend instead of shit they can develop over time from just talking to people.”

    And Rollo put the period at the end of the sentence –

    ” No amount of these guys getting into shape is going to offset their depressive self-images. The problem with guys like this is the Eliot Rodger effect. They ‘try’ PUA and ‘try’ to apply that headspace and get rejected, even more crushingly than they had when they had no idea of what TRP was.”

    I have never been able to break any guy out of the ” I can’t, I can’t, I can’t..” mindset. I’m not altogether sure what is supposed to be done with all of that negativity. That shit’s dangerous.

    Is it uniquely male?

    I’ve helped chicks with negative mindsets and low assed self esteem and it was easier than with men/boys, so what drives this stuff at the root?

    Useless anecdote #4,972

    A few years ago I had to pull the graveyard shift at my company. I had a suffering beta as my coworker. We were testing a metric shitload of new in-house software and at times we had to call some programmers at home at ungodly hours.

    I knew a few of the female programmers fairly well, so on occasion when I had to make the 2:00 am ” your code is for shit ” phone call, I tried to at least make the woman on the other end of the phone laugh a little.

    So on one call I asked a programmer ” Hey…where’s your husband?’… She replied ” uhhh…asleep, right next to me..”. So I said ” Soo.. what are you wearing? ” She burst into laughter. My coworker looked at me as if I’d farted in his lunch.

    Now granted, my company would have launched me into space if they got wind of my behavior, but I knew these broads and we’ve had that type of banter before. But my coworker absolutely freaked. ” You can’t talk to women like that!!!” he barked.

    I desperately tried to explain to him that a man can say anything he’d like to any female ( within reason – I don’t advocate work related verbal tomfoolery ). The next few hours were draining as he ran through a litany of Blue Pill defeatism. I tried to lead by example- the cleaning crew had about 5 young latina chicks from 19-23 years old. 2 of them were at least 7’s, maybe soft 8’s. Coworker was admiring from a distance. I spoke to them and chatted them up. He immediately came up with a dozen reasons why he couldn’t even SPEAK to them and proceeded to grimace in pain.

    After a couple of weeks of getting to know these chicks, I singled out one with the nicest body. I told my coworker to watch and listen. I called the chick over and chatted, then I pulled up her little work smock and told her to ” spin ” for me, which she did, giggling all the time. Then I told her I had to get back to work and I gave her a hard ” body hug ” and she kissed me on the cheek.

    I told him he could do the same thing if he would just TRY. I’m older than him, I’m greyer than him, and I have a wife and kids at home. He’s single, not older and grey, and he’s smart. But he would not even try. Even watching me, he believed that he could NEVER do those things.

    Now granted, that’s much different than hitting up chicks in a club or bar or party or even at the supermarket, but the basic premise is the same ( to me anyway ). I’m always cultivating the next piece of ass, even if I never move on it. The cultivating is FUN.

    So when a guy is absolutely stuck on ” I could never do that..”, even if he’s struggling and suffering in deprivation, he is a lost cause , No?

    I guess Rollo is right – ” Forever Alones of any stripe generally lack the social intelligence and the mental maturity to put in the kind of effort necessary to change their lives.”

    Damn.

    If I believed in getting depressed, that thought would do it.

    Okay. I’m done rambling.

  6. I made the mistake of clicking on that reddit link. Fuck me.

    I was in a mindset like that for a long time. Long time.

    Short, ugly, worthless. Oh yeah, been there. Still can feel it at the edge of my brain, haunting me, teasing me. For awhile the red pill teachings made it worse. I couldn’t handle it. Sometimes it comes back. Just a few minutes at a time. Sometimes for whole days.

    Oneitis is hard with that mindset too.

    What if this is the only girl I could ever have sex with, ever? What if I get out there and can’t get any female attention at all?

    I understand those guys. I wish I could help them, I truly do.

  7. ” It’s like the PUA is giving out philosophical life advice! ”

    A good one ought to be able to. Life is game.

    “It’s amazing to me, that in realizing the problem, one can also shut out the possibility of any solutions outside of what makes them comfortable.”

    No discomfort, no gain. Pity it doesn’t rhyme.
    With practice, the discomfort becomes a pleasure.

  8. kfg

    ” With practice, the discomfort becomes a pleasure.”

    It would appear that this sentiment is becoming the new gospel.

  9. Cave

    Yeah. That reddit is some raw stuff.

    I close it, then re-open the link. I can’t grasp what I’m reading there.

    1. Now now, you better “man up” and marry those Crow’s feet sluts. After all, it’s for the greater good. LOL

  10. “Even a lot of the ones that turn to a hermit life of xbox and porn are still depressed and CRAVING the feeling of a girl legitimately liking them. Sometimes not even fucking them, just HOLDING HANDS and shit.”

    guys will have a tough time with pua if they can’t swallow trp. you’re talking about totally rewiring guys. that is a tall order.

    first they need to understand that girls won’t ever really like them because girls don’t really like anyone but themselves. they like the traits the guy has.

    wanting to be liked/loved for the person you are is a big problem and that dries up pussies faster than anything. that is major thirst that goes beyond the desperation to get laid. changing insecurity like that could take a lifetime.

    second they need to understand that girls don’t want to hold hands. they want to grab your hand and have you pull it away from them and make fun of them. this is the kind of shit you learn in junior high. again, major rewire needed for them to understand women don’t provide support. they provide holes to fuck. and food.

    even economists have a hard time understanding that market imbalances are often caused on the supply side. take soy for example. it’s everywhere. why? because it’s easy to grow and the soy industry/lobby found every possible place to stick it.

    in 2015 girls are dtf. why? too much supply on the market. we are drowning in easy pussy. yareally is giving away the keys to the kingdom and all people can do is whine and complain. he’ll fucking go through FRs with dudes for free and they still complain. what the fuck?

    in the matrix, freeing minds beyond a certain age is dangerous. the mind has trouble letting go. these guys are not ready to be unplugged. it hurts too much.

    maybe they need fight club before the red pill. how much can you know about yourself if you’ve never been in a fight? it never happened in school because of these insane parents outlawing tag and shit. maybe they need to get the shit kicked out of them to understand pain.

    once they know pain won’t kill them they can move on to trp, where shit really starts to hurt.

    this shit is sad. bless rollo and heartiste and yareally and everyone who spends their time trying to help the seemingly unhelpable.

    and don’t eat soy. the chinese used it to fix nitrogen in the soil for the next crop. then they would plow it under untouched. it only became “food” when they realized they could feed it to the slaves.

  11. @Blaximus
    “I told him he could do the same thing if he would just TRY. I’m older than him, I’m greyer than him, and I have a wife and kids at home. He’s single, not older and grey, and he’s smart. But he would not even try. Even watching me, he believed that he could NEVER do those things.”

    Welcome to knowing me circa my pre-PUA days, and most guys who get into pickup, before they get into it and baby step their way into success. Most of us don’t think we can do it. It’s fucking magical. You believe the social conditioning of “either you’re born with it or you aren’t”. Me 10+ years ago could never even IMAGINE doing what I’m doing now. I didn’t even know how to say hi to girls let alone touch them, good lord, or SWEAR in front of them or talk about SEX?? Not on your LIFE!! That’s for those other guys to do, they deserve the girls and some of them are just assholes, I’m not like that, bla bla bla

    That’s why I know these mindsets, because most of us started from them. But we hit rock bottom so hard and got so desperate that we said “ok, I’ll try this weird PUA shit, these guys SOUND like they know what they’re talking about and the newbie mission is to just ask 10 people for the time today. Shit, I walked around for 4 hours and couldn’t ask a single person for the time, not even a little old man…ok this is harder than I thought, but these guys say to set my standard of success lower and just ask ONE person for the time today…I’ll try it…oh god, I stopped them and then forgot what I was supposed to say, ahh this is too embarrassing fuck I’m going to hide in my room for a week…but I’m so lonely…ok fuck, I’m going to try it again…just ask ONE PERSON for the time today. HOLY SHIT I DID IT!!! I ASKED A LITTLE OLD LADY FOR THE TIME!!!!! THIS IS AMAZING!!!!”

    That’s basically how most PUAs start out. A lot of guys who’ve had success or been Naturals can’t even wrap their heads around someone going through that process but that’s how a TON of guys live.

    But most people won’t change until they hit absolute rock bottom and are given some guidance on what to do from there. It’s like Fight Club said “it’s only after we’ve lost everything that we’re free to do anything”. As long as a guy isn’t at rock bottom he’ll have a hard time taking up PUA. Because he gets his rejections and then bails. The only time you stick through those rejections starting out is when you have NO OTHER OPTIONS.

    That’s why I reject the whole “coddle them with victim mentality” shit. It just gives guys an excuse to not hit rock bottom. “It’s not MY fault, it’s society that’s UNFAIR”. Ya, it IS unfair, now what? Here are the steps to help you get out of where you are, you might not fuck an HB10 this weekend, hell you might spend a YEAR just trying to learn how to have a conversation with people…but if you WANT it, it’s there for you and there’s a community of guys who want you to succeed and tons of literature to help you.

    If I had had a negative community to wrap myself in a victim identity way back then, I might not have taken up pickup because I’d go “whatever, it’s not my fault look at all these other guys having problems too, it’s society’s fault and now I have friends in this community who tell me not to bother with that PUA scam bullshit, and ignore those TRP assholes and fuck that “Rollo” guy’s blog what does he know, women are just bitches and sluts”.

    But like I say, people will stumble across that subreddit and then just avoid it and avoid thinking about it and just hope everything goes away. And then we’re all surprised when some kid shoots up his school and we find out he was a lonely virgin who was angry he couldn’t get girls. That frustrated kid will go on to live 40-60 years walking the same sidewalks as you, driving the same roads as you, and at any point in that 40-60 years he may decide “fuck this”. If he gets therapy it’ll be some Blue Pill chick therapist who just fucks him up more. If he complains to his friends they’ll coddle him and tell him he’s a special snowflake. Society will tell him it’s his fault but not tell him how to fix it and spit on him for not just inherently KNOWING how to fix it. TRP will tell him to do shit that gets him attention but doesn’t fix his loneliness. A negative community will tell him it’s not his fault and fuck everyone and just stay down in the mud with us because you aren’t one of the ones who can do that stuff and neither are we and let’s all accept that.

    But a positive community will say “Look man, you got dealt some shitty cards and this is gonna be hard, but if you want help we’ll help you and here are some really simple step by step things you can do to slowly start coming out of your shell and taking control of your life and working towards a better future. It won’t be a magic pill (despite the marketing) but it can help make a difference in your life. If you don’t want that, that’s cool we hope you find a way to take care of yourself and be happy, but if you want to go down this path it’s right here waiting for you, we all came from a similar place a long time ago so we understand it’s a struggle but guys have been chained by society to not realize how much potential they actually have.”

    That’s what we try to do (though now that PUA has gone super mainstream the forums aren’t as good as back in the day lol)

    “Oneitis is hard with that mindset too. What if this is the only girl I could ever have sex with, ever? What if I get out there and can’t get any female attention at all?”

    Ya, this is why most guys are in shitty relationships. Fear of not being able to find another one. Even guys who do pickup and Naturals run into this if they let their social skills slack off in an LTR. People generally play to “not lose” instead of playing “to win”.

    “I close it, then re-open the link. I can’t grasp what I’m reading there.”

    Welcome to how a SIGNIFICANT percent of men live. Those are just the ones that verbalize it in a forum. We deal with these guys and they need a lot more help than “hit the gym and don’t hook up with girls who don’t have motherly qualities” lol

    This is why when I’m out and I see a dude who’s clearly uncomfortable and feeling out of place at the bar I’ll cheers him and just shoot the shit. That one conversation where he just feels for 2 minutes like another human being could view him as an actual human being who matters, could make a huge difference in the path his life takes. Some dude did it for me and I’m just paying it forward.

  12. @Blaximus & Caveclown:

    Yeah man….I’ve just gone through some of the reddit stuff…Wow! Fuck, fuck, fuck!!!!

    Rollo, I think this is especially why your series on red pill parenting is NECESSARY, IMPERATIVE, INEXORABLE & DE RIGEUR especially for boys…for us and our sons, & brothers!!!

    Over the last half century, the FI, through strong propaganda, education, etc has broken the structures that aid in raising men who at the very least do not doubt their masculinity. Now, due to raising men in an egalitarian way, to see things through the FI myopic dystopia, we have many soldiers out there who define their value by the same yardsticks that are used by the FI & women…

    I was almost one of these guys…In fact, I have talked a friend out of that predicament that those reddit guys are in….He’d taken the oneitis pill and was hot for this chic who basically gave him the run around….came back from studying abroad, with a ring, and found she’d been on the CC hard…
    She had him hanging on her fingertips…One day he calls me and basically says he doesn’t want to live, and “Why can’t women be like cars?”
    I basically told him there was too much to live for, and that he should focus on himself and his dreams…this was before I (& he eventually) became aware of TRP…

    Now he is awakened and fully embraces his masculinity, being a man and being red pill…

    It’s a shame what half a decade of FI conditioning and feminism has done to men…and in the end women….

    Continue your work Rollo…you are truly a saviour brother…and we’re in the trenches with you.

  13. @Blaximus: “It would appear that this sentiment is becoming the new gospel.”

    Is it? It’s simply my experience, as well as that of many others.

  14. YaReally,

    Men deal with “imaginary rules” all the time. Are you familiar at all with a little something called “History”? You might find a great deal of men preoccupied with imaginary rules, and even imaginary debates such as the number of angels dancing on a pinhead.

    The male mind concerns itself greatly with “what ought” in addition to “what is.” These two are intertwined in human evolution and are not divorceable, particularly for a social species, particularly when “what ought” so greatly affects “what is.”

    You are pathologizing this mindset along with a great deal else of rational male behavior: “you DON’T want to sleep in a broom closest while trying to learn Game for 10 years? LOSER!”

    You are making a great deal of normative and moral statements that are fundamentally no different from any third wave feminist.

    Fundamentally, the only difference is that while women consider themselves morally superior, you simply think they have no agency and thus cannot be assigned moral culpability: women aren’t failing, society is failing! But if women can definitionally not fail, that means MEN are automatically failing.

    And then you actually suggest “no, no, this is not what I am actually saying,” when, yes, yes, it is what you are actually saying. It’s just a simple logical proof, not even more than 10 steps.

    Again, this is why you are getting push back from HH.

    You will only continue to get increasing push-back the more you describe all alternative mindsets as “negative” and attempt to psychoanalyze as them engaging in some sort of masochistic self-punishment cycle. Why wouldn’t you? It comes off as crying “oh, those meany-pants won’t let me call them socially crippled, they are so lame and such whiners!”

    Then you confuse rationally or consciously determined ethical codes with socially conditioned behavior. These are not the same. Even primates have socially conditioned behavior, but they do not have Kant.

    To us this is simply amusing because you imagine you will gain some tremendous following when you clearly have no idea what moves men souls, and you imagine you somehow have a solution for men when you clearly do not understand the character of the standard male mind. “Why don’t all these guys spend 10 years learning game? Must be lazy!”

  15. ADBG-

    I’ve never considered myself a PUA proponent, but I can see no argument against most of what YaReally’s been saying here.

    It seems you are exaggerating what his position actually is.

    If a man has a mindset that is giving him negative results ( consistently ), then what would you call that if not a ” negative mindset “?

    ” The male mind concerns itself greatly with “what ought” in addition to “what is.” These two are intertwined in human evolution and are not divorceable, particularly for a social species, particularly when “what ought” so greatly affects “what is.””

    Okay, but is it more constructive to try to accomplish a goal by first fully understanding ” what is ” before considering ” what ought “?

    Men’s character and morals are personal things. In a social interaction these things are only part of the equation. I’m getting robbed at gunpoint, but thievery goes against my moral principles. This ” ought ” not be happening. Too bad I can’t divorce myself from the facts on the ground so that I can understand what’s happening to me in real time, and how I can deal with the active situation.

    I don’t think the subjects broached here are about moving men’s souls. It’s more about thought : conditioned thought.

  16. … that are fundamentally no different from any third wave feminist.
    Fundamentally, the only difference …

    that failed, the pretend quotes from him were weak, and total silly was:

    Are you familiar at all with a little something called “History”

    continue with the “push-back”

  17. Aw FUCK Kevin Powell. He’s a washed up has-been looking for attention. IDGAF about him or his opinions, and neither should anyone else.

    Selling out, he likes that shit.

    At least he’ll get some interviews and face time on CNN now.

    Any man who directs other men to be more vulnerable can eat a steaming hot bowl of dicks.

  18. @yareally

    Looks vs Game.

    WE can see what results can be achieved by both – for example Paul Janka. His whole “GAME” consists of walking in the street and askng pretty chicks in clear terms if they want to fuck him. Short, clear, to the point. Without any preselection, social proof, anything. His only value is his looks.

    He fucked how many of them? 200, 300…I do not know.

    We are talkinh about different leagues here when you compare guys with looks with guys with game and without looks.

    When you HAVE looks, good loooks, WOMEN pursue you. You are like this HB 10 standing in the corner…watching the performance of poor loosers for her pleasure. Only in this situation women DANCE for you. THIS is the difference. You do not need hard work, social proof, anything. As a young guy I was good looking and stupid. Didn´t need anything just the willingness to go out, be near girls and TAKE/FUCK those that pursued me.

    Now I am in my late thirties, I have social status, experience, many employees..I am known. AS far as game is concerned .. I am open and positive, with good timing. That´s all you really need in this shit.

    I have some success event with hot chicks…but it is NOTHING near I had with no money, no status, NO FUCKING GAME, NO SOCIAL proof….but good looks. I am invisible, unless I present myself in some way, open mouth, give a look to woman. I have to DO something, I have to perform.

    So the difference is – I have to dance now, I have to perform. Guys with reall good looks DOES NOT NEED TO.

    It is very beneficial to teach game. Game is basically truth about social interraction and women. Each guy shall know it. So keep to it also in this “looks” cathegory. I have been on both sides of the fence, so you will not fool me.

  19. @gregg

    everyone seems to misunderstand YaReally on this point. He’s not saying looks don’t work; in fact, he stresses that they can work just fine practically every other comment. He’s stressing that it’s not a good plan to bank on them; as you experienced, they can fade with time, and then without game you’re left high and dry.

    Didn´t need anything just the willingness to go out, be near girls and TAKE/FUCK those that pursued me.

    Surely you see how much game that all includes? A lot of guys don’t have a fucking clue what to do even if a girl throws herself at him. Closing is an essential game skill. And the circumstance you describe has abundance mentality, aloofness, confidence, entitlement, and so on just built into it. All are essential game tenants – which are a bitch to develop if your circumstance doesn’t organically produce them.

  20. “I’m in love.
    This is the one, I just know it.
    I confess…it’s me.”

    @Cave

    Welcome to Team Awesome brother.

    “You will only continue to get increasing push-back the more you describe all alternative mindsets as “negative” and attempt to psychoanalyze as them engaging in some sort of masochistic self-punishment cycle.”

    This dude has his own blog and people are calling me a n00b?

    “To us this is simply amusing because you imagine you will gain some tremendous following when you clearly have no idea what moves men souls”

    @ADBG

    Speak for yourself man. @yaReally has single-handedly helped me to boost my social game. We need him here. And you’re wrong. A positive attitude is absolutely necessary.

  21. fleezer,

    “yareally is giving away the keys to the kingdom and all people can do is whine and complain. he’ll fucking go through FRs with dudes for free and they still complain. what the fuck?”

    Amazing. And then they want to argue about some silly detail….

  22. they’re saying “I need to get fucked, my hubby just doesn’t do it” “I know babe don’t worry about it getting a sugar daddy on the side was the best thing I ever did for my marriage you go grrrl”. Like, they’ll often drop the whole “lying about it” thing with their super close girlfriends.

    So how is their covert lying men’s fault? Well if we accept that to their BFFs they’ll be blatantly red pill honest, then we have to accept that they’re not INCAPABLE of being honest, it’s just that with their BFF cirumstances are such that they’re more likely to be honest than they are with other people or men. So what’s the difference between their BFF and a guy they’re on a date with or their co-worker? They *KNOW* their BFF won’t judge them for what they say/do. They know their BFF will accept them and even if she disagrees with them she won’t think less of her as a human being for it. Her NON-close GFs might but her BFF won’t.

    So the reason women lie about this shit is because they know the guy they’re on a date with or their co-workers etc etc will judge them if they’re honest. Because 99% of people WILL judge them. But if you can remove that judgement, they’ll open up to you like they do with their BFFs. That’s a big part of why they tell me all sorts of fucked up shit that they won’t tell their general friends or family, because they know I won’t judge them. It’s survival for her to be covert because if she gets judged she’ll miss out on or sabotage opportunities to achieve her biological goals.

    So in THEORY, if men could just be non-judgemental (or at least hold a poker face and give the illusion of it, like I often do lol), women would be more honest.

    Right now it’s mostly just theory, but social trends are pointing in a direction where it can easily become reality. Women have traditionally been dishonest about their sexual strategy and impulses due to the overriding need to secure male investment. She’s honest with her BFF because the BFF isn’t a man she wants to marry her and help her raise the kids she says are his, he isn’t a man she wants to recruit as a beta orbiter and so on. As Western women’s need for beta bucks keep disappearing, you’ll see more blatant expressions of oper hypergamy. If the current hegemonic forces in politics succeed in building a pure matriarchy, which they’ll probably do, all that horrific judgmentalism will fade away, because women will stop caring about men’s opinions altogether.

    We’re already in a situation where a growing segment of young men no longer view their female peers are capable of empathy, future time orientation, moral behavior, rational thought and social responsibility. Such men won’t grow up to be judgmental because, well, you don’t judge a dog if it urinates on your car’s wheel, right?

    Till he comes to the Manosphere. (the parts of the Manosphere that aren’t Rollo’s blog at least lol) NOW he can blame “those stupid ungrateful bitches” and high-five SD and hollenhund.

    The Manopshere is what, 0.0001% of the Internet? And most of the ‘sphere itself is populated by guys who’ll happily tell them that yes, it’s all their fault instead of high-fiving them.

  23. As that is the only paragraph in that link that refers to men as clowns, I repeat my claim that that is Roosh’s assessment of himself and game-practiced men. That is not what he thinks women feel of the men who do these things.

    Read the two paragraphs preceding that. He says it specifically that game-practiced men act like that because they’s the behavior that women positively respond to, which they do because they only view men as life accessories, completely optional sources of entertainment, amusement and distraction, akin to glittery skirts, soap opera writers and clowns.

  24. As that is the only paragraph in that link that refers to men as clowns, I repeat my claim that that is Roosh’s assessment of himself and game-practiced men. That is not what he thinks women feel of the men who do these things.

    Read the two paragraphs preceding that. He says it specifically that game-practiced men act like that because they’s the behavior that women positively respond to, which they do because they only view men as life accessories, completely optional sources of entertainment, amusement and distraction, akin to glittery skirts, soap opera writers and clowns.

  25. I was the same when I found Heartiste, and YaReally. I thought I was just reading a bunch of “asshole tactics used by pick-up artists to bang unworthy sluts.”

    Cool story, except that’s not what I’m reading. What I’m reading are increasingly shrill exhortations directed at average betas by PUA promoters, encouragements to pretty much re-order their lives and invest their energy to play a game that has constantly diminishing returns due to the drop in average female quality, a game that is becoming increasingly harder due to various social factors like the popularity of smartphones among women, devices that basically function as digital cockblocks.

    These guys are invested in this notion that social trends will prove the efficacy of Game, which, of course, results in them joining the chorus complaining about all those lazy, entitled, faggy young men when they realize that their target audience is apparently more likely to opt out of this game altogether instead of accepting their creed of male fault and the need for complete transformation.

  26. I was the same when I found Heartiste, and YaReally. I thought I was just reading a bunch of “asshole tactics used by pick-up artists to bang unworthy sluts.”

    Cool story, except that’s not what I’m reading. What I’m reading are increasingly shrill exhortations directed at average betas by PUA promoters, encouragements to pretty much re-order their lives and invest their energy to play a game that has constantly diminishing returns due to the drop in average female quality, a game that is becoming increasingly harder due to various social factors like the popularity of smartphones among women, devices that basically function as digital cockblocks.

    These guys are invested in this notion that social trends will prove the efficacy of Game, which, of course, results in them joining the chorus complaining about all those lazy, entitled, faggy young men when they realize that their target audience is apparently more likely to opt out of this game altogether instead of accepting their creed of male fault and the need for complete transformation.

  27. Yep.

    What’re you gonna do about it?

    I’m pretty sure the minimum we can do is not lending further legitimacy to the overarching idea that got society in the current mess in the first place, namely that men, especially young men, cause all problems on a social and individual level as well. Opposing this ideology while accepting its central tenet is pure nonsense.

    Roosh is a marketeer, not a visionary.

    Marketeers can’t afford to be depressing and negative, can they?

  28. My social circle consists mostly of relatively Beta guys that do not have the capacity or wherewithal to invest their weekday nights in sarging and do not have an interest sleeping on blow-up mattresses in people’s closets. If that’s the price of Good Game, the price is too high, and if Good Game has become a requirement for decent treatment from women, then women have too much social, economic, and political power. You are suggesting to my Beta comrades that they simply have negative mindsets that women treat them like disposable shit.

    The price is actually even higher, at least according to one prominent Game blogger: he has established that an average guy has to establish “a solid foundation of confidence and social skills” before he even begins to learn Game.

    https://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/its-not-fear-of-rejection-its-fear-of-punishment/#comment-24039

    1. YaReally may disagree with this, but good Game isn’t about numbers, it’s about consistency.

      Any guy can make 100 approaches in a weekend and get blown out 98% of it, but for most men it takes persistence to make just 1 approach per week.

      52 approaches in a year is more than most men will make in a lifetime.

  29. I highly doubt PUA can help those poor guys from YaReally’s post. I mean, you have to have hope and the will to improve before anything can start to work. And as HH pointed out above, those guys need to learn basic social skills before they have any hope of improving. They are probably going to try, fail spectacularly, and be worse off in the long run. Their issue isn’t a lack of knowledge about women, its a lack of knowledge about life in general.

    I honestly don’t have much advice for them. If PUA can help they should fucking jump at it. However I doubt learning some routines will help, and if they can’t get a few early wins in to boost their ego I suspect they’ll give up sooner than later. But these guys are also extreme cases while the vast majority of beta plow horses are simply lacking a Red Pill perspective to better manage their own lives. Most BP guys don’t need to be taught how to talk to people, they simply need an attitude adjustment. (To be sure that adjustment is huge, but not as bad as having to start from “how do I say hello to a stranger?” Kind of adjustment.).

    My only advice to these extreme cases? Seek professional help pronto. I wouldn’t suggest anything about PUA, or dating, or relationships. I think they’d be better served by getting their mental shit straight first and THEN look for ways to improve. Otherwise at best they are trying to use a bandaid on an amputation, and they will bleed out.

  30. Exactly what are you talking about? Who said this? I was talking about introverts, I made no mention of anything pathological.

    Your words:

    These are men who stick to themselves, burned and/or conditioned to keep to themselves to the point that they now self-condition themselves into isolation. Most of the time, introverts disqualify a conversation with someone before it has ever begun. Worse, when they make attempts to be social, and find failure, they’ll often blame everything but themselves. Worse, these same men have self-convinced that every tiny failure is worth quitting over.

    These are antisocial pathologies that you accuse beta introverts of having: deliberate isolation driven by baseless hatred and contempt towards other humans in general. Whenever the problems of average betas, introverted or not, in the dating market are discussed, it’s a standard tactic in both the mainstream and the Manosphere to simply dismiss the issue by making the overall assumption that such men are pathological in a number of ways: they have a sense of entitlement, they set women impossible standards, their sexual expectations are completely screwed up, their social skills are blunted by their own warped sexist mindset etc. This way we can comfortably categorize them as sick creeps, and this conclude that the whole problem is their fault only, or that it only exists in their sick minds anyway.

    So you accuse me of a baseless statement, and immediately follow it up with “simple logic tells us…,” and “needs no explanation.” You’ve got a long way to go to learn how to argue if you’re going to accuse someone of doing the very thing you do in the exact same paragraph.

    Your assumption is that beta male introverts are the most likely to become the audience of a creed that specifically emphasises and demands extroverted behavior. This idea is completely divorced from logic, kind of similar to saying that art galleries are normally visited by blind people. My belief is that the men most likely to learn and practice PUA are extroverts who enjoy social interactions in the first place, but their Blue Pill indoctrination sabotaged their attempts to reach success in the dating market, so they got fed up and developed and interest in other approaches.

    So, you tell me that introverted betas are not the ones looking to PUAs, and then you describe the exact conditions that might push introverts towards PUA material?

    They’d have to be masochists for those conditions to push them in that direction. A socieal environment that penalizes, ridicules and excommunicates introverted betas, which is what we have today, will normally push them in the opposite direction, to stop involvement in social interactions that bring no value to them, and take up other hobbies instead, like computer games etc.

    Did it dawn on you when writing that that such social pressures might be exactly what causes introverts to look for help in a social world that punishes them for not being socially developed?

    Society isn’t pressuring them to socially develop. After all, they are getting the overall message, in no uncertain terms, that they aren’t wanted and aren’t needed. It’s incentivizing them to opt out of the game altogether, which is exactly what’s happening. Otherwise we wouldn’t have people even in the mainstream media complaining about this trend.

  31. That’s the final, fatal flaw of MGTOW, imo. MGTOW offers nothing to the ladies as a new standard of behavior, it simply says, “No, I won’t interact with you.”

    So MGTOW is flawed because it doesn’t benefit women?

  32. @Forge the Sky
    “He’s not saying looks don’t work; in fact, he stresses that they can work just fine practically every other comment. He’s stressing that it’s not a good plan to bank on them”

    The reason I stress it in practically every other comment is because I know even DOING THAT, nobody will read it and will still blindly miss my point because it’s such a personal hot-button issue to guys that they’re so emotionally invested in that the SECOND they read “looks don’t matter” they go haywire like a bull surrounded by red flags and it’s like “WELL U HATE MEN U FEMINAZI AND PUAS SAY MEN R LAZY AND UR SAYING GUYS SHULD JUST NOT BATHE AND DRESS LIKE HOMELESS PPL AND GOOD LOOKING GUYS ARE ALL VIRGINS IM SO ANGRY FOR NO REASON AHHHHHHH” lol

    @Rollo
    “YaReally may disagree with this, but good Game isn’t about numbers, it’s about consistency.”

    I agree completely. It’s why we stress going out and why we say like, open a girl on your lunch break or go out for 20 minutes each night and open a set, that’s going to help you a lot more than just getting drunk with your buddies and spam approaching on the weekends. You might even get laid more with the weekend drunk spamming but you won’t really be developing “game”. Opening a girl in the daytime and closing a girl off an instadate sober will teach you a lot more about game than the weekend partying stuff.

    “Any guy can make 100 approaches in a weekend and get blown out 98% of it”

    Really I’m not a big fan of the whole spam approach thing in general. It’s important for newbies at first because like, they need to just get out of the house and realize talking to people and getting rejected by girls isn’t the end of the world so it’s not so scary and they can start to learn.

    But ideally after they get used to going out I think they should start focusing on something like Mystery Method that’ll give them an actual skillset. They probably won’t even get laid as much at first, but down the road they’ll have a much better structure and much higher consistency so they don’t HAVE to approach 100 sets to pull a girl. This weekend I pulled the first girl I opened in a venue we hit up and she’s coming over to bang tonight. Does that happen every night? No, but because I have a really solid understanding of how this stuff works I can do a lot less approaches than a lot of the partying guys with no calibration or structure are doing out there. Ideally with proper MM you should be able to walk into a chill lounge on a weeknight with just a few girls in it and be able to pull one of those girls (or at least get a solid #-close and set up a Day2) because you know how to DHV your way into being the most interesting man in the room to them.

    Mystery’s “5 for 5” concept was that running proper game you should be able to open 5 girls and convert them to 5 long-term girlfriends because that’s the skillset he was teaching. That’s WHY there was all this information on diffusing cockblocks and LMR and AMOGs and boyfriend destroyers and bitch-shields, because the original purpose of MM was to allow guys to navigate and overcome that stuff to get the specific girl they’re interested in. You see that dream girl in a mixed set across the room and you go over KNOWING that you have the skills to very likely end up getting her because you understand all the dynamics and have a bunch of tools to make it happen.

    That’s why Mystery’s thing was “it takes about 7 hours from meet to lay”. We all know we can fuck girls faster than that. But Mystery wasn’t trying to just fuck them, he was trying to blow their fucking minds and make the girl think “holy shit I’ve never met anyone like this before in my life I’m in love with this guy” because he’s flipping all their switches as both a Lover AND a Provider (because he actually LIKES women and enjoys going on dates and taking them out to hang out with his friends etc, I actively take myself out of the Provider frame because I just want sex lol).

    Like that girl incomprehensibly fawning over Tyler and his “perfect teeth and perfect lips” and saying “I feel like I’m not up to par to be with you” is the goal of Mystery Method, where the girl is like, demanding your number and is worried she doesn’t even deserve you and is crying if you won’t take her number because it’s like you’re taking away her lottery winnings.

    Unfortunately RSD/TRP/Manosphere etc have taken things toward “spam approach that shit and if you get ANY resistance whatsoever, Next that ungrateful bitch and hit up the next” which to me isn’t really “game”, it’s just spamming for receptive girls. It’s why they get a lot more flakes and bang a lot more girls they aren’t into and they get wildly inconsistent results. They hit the gym and flash some more externals and get some more positive attention and then still end up dropping the ball halfway through or towards the end because they refuse to learn actual game.

    The catch with RSD is that the instructors all KNOW and USE Mystery Method under the surface, it’s blatantly obvious when you know what to look for. It’s just really well hidden because they’ve been doing it so long that it’s second nature to them now.

    And the big problem is you fill a lot more bootcamps if you can state-boost a newbie and get him spam approaching and taking a girl home that weekend. I don’t really agree with this method because while it’s great that that guy gets some experience pulling which could be the first time he’s ever had sex, I don’t think it teaches him very much long-term and generally those guys end up just using the spam approach and Next method.

    That’s why I link a shitload of RSD videos that teach concepts and tactics and techniques because it’s rock solid information, but I don’t tell people “go sign up for a bootcamp”. Theoretically all a guy needs is to really understand Mystery Method and watch a few RSD vids and laser vids (check my archive where I’ve linked newbie stuff) and just hit the field practicing it piece by piece.

    “5 for 5” might be an insane goal, BUT if you’re running proper Mystery Method game it’s not that unrealistic, because you know how to navigate through lukewarm reception or resistance or obstacles to eventually spark attraction. It really is an “art form”, but everybody just brushes it off as “fuzzy hat shit” and focuses on hitting the gym or Next’ing girls they haven’t fucked lol

    That’s why a lot of my views contradict what TRP/Manosphere/etc. say. Because I’m not just trying to get guys laid, I’m trying to get guys to build a solid structure and deep understanding of this stuff that’s going to pay off huge for them in the end.

    One of the most depressed guys in the world is the guy who can get a ton of pussy but fucking HATES all the girls he’s fucking, because he took what was offered to him (passive game relying on externals etc, instead of being able to choose and get the girls he wants) and he doesn’t know how to screen/qualify or train girls or Soft Next them properly etc so that the girls he has in his life are high-quality to him and he actually ENJOYS his harem.

    I’d rather make guys into the latter instead of the former even if the former comes a lot faster and easier (once you don’t mind getting rejected a bunch playing the numbers game). If we want guys to be able to screen for motherly qualities and shit, you’re not really doing that when you’re out there spam-approaching girls you aren’t even into and taking the ones that make it easy for you. “I GO GET WASTED AND SPAM A BUNCH OF BAR CHICKS AND THEN TAKE HOME THE ONE THAT MAKES IT THE EASIEST TO FUCK ME, WHY CAN’T I FIND A GOOD GIRL WITH MOTHERLY QUALITIES THAT DOESN’T SUCK A BUNCH OF DICKS IN THE BATHROOM I DONT GET IT BITCHES R STOOPID!!!”

    That girl with the motherly qualities is probably the sober social one out with a group of friends or is in the grocery store buying kale instead of at the bar…oldschool pickup gave you the tools to open and probably spark that girl’s interest whether you were her physical type and she was shooting you ai’s and ioi’s in the cereal aisle or not.

  33. This thread is getting old, so this may not be seen, but just in case it does…

    Words simply fail me.
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/19/living/mens-movement-kevin-powell-feat/index.html?sr=fbCNN102015mens-movement-kevin-powell-feat1031PMStoryLink&linkId=18107556

    Lol, what a fucking shithead. On the other hand, completely predictable nonsense. Stuff like this is why the only reason I occiasionally watch mainstream TV and read mainstream news sites is to amuse myself by taking another look at the pile of shit this culture has become.

    1. @Rollo Tommasi
      “real change takes time and investment.

      Forever Alones of any stripe generally lack the social intelligence and the mental maturity to put in the kind of effort necessary to change their lives.”
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6pe2GFFsc
      Working on change learning new tactics to change others.
      http://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00G3L1C2K/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1445447094&sr=8-1
      Men holding each other accountable is priceless.

      “but good Game isn’t about numbers, it’s about consistency.”

      I’m consistent in being uncomfortable. Growing in the darkness… Breaking through with light.

      @DragonFly
      “It’s amazing to me, that in realizing the problem, one can also shut out the possibility of any solutions outside of what makes them comfortable.”

      If you experience Trauma your right brain takes over more than your left. Rollos work is left brain rational logic I went through a lot of disturbing event that I try to change while understanding why I repeat the same. Mistakes to help me change my actions. Look up the Brodmanns area in the brain.

      @kfg
      “With practice, the discomfort becomes a pleasure.”

      It’s my experience as well.

      @Forge the sky
      “A lot of guys don’t have a fucking clue what to do even if a girl throws herself at him. Closing is an essential game skill. And the circumstance you describe has abundance mentality, aloofness, confidence, entitlement, and so on just built into it. All are essential game tenants – which are a bitch to develop if your circumstance doesn’t organically produce them.”

      I concur
      Makes me think of this
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3EJuGAke5E
      One take one chance you miss up move on and learn.

  34. @Rugby… I was reflecting on IB’s ability to see there’s a problem, but her inability to entertain any solution that would be uncomfortable for her to admit would work. But I get what you’re saying…

  35. @ Cave Clown

    http://therationalmale.com/2015/10/14/red-pill-parenting-part-ii/comment-page-5/#comment-123589

    Those are all elements of Game, except looks. You can change your clothing, so that’s Game. I go to non-country places wearing boots and jeans, because it works for me. Boots are great for dancing and jeans always work. It’s also peacocking and that is Game, too.

    You can AMOG anybody, even ripped body builders.

    Me: “Awesome body, but you have to wonder…”
    She: “What?”
    Me: “Is he compensating for insecurity?”
    Me: “Is he compensating for a lack of confidence?”
    Me: “Does he play on an all boys’ team?”
    Me: “Is he a switch hitter?”

    You can AMOG younger men. Subtle negs are best.

    “He’s a nice guy and has a great future.”
    “He has a lot of style for someone who hasn’t traveled much.”
    “He does very well on a limited budget.”
    “He seems nice. I should take him under my wing and teach him about women.”
    “I wish I had his innocence. I’m far too jaded.”

  36. Rollo on DeadBedrooms
    Fool me once, your fault. Fool me twice, my fault. And ironically most of the men in the DB forum still adamantly reject Red Pill truths.

    Yeah, it’s the old “is” vs. “ought”. She “ought” to be willing to give enthused pornstar quality action to a man who has been seriously betaized, because he’s still willing to try to sex her up even if she’s put on the pounds. Because equalitarian / sameness, most likely.

    A lot of men don’t want to give up the equalitarian myth, maybe because it has been drilled into them from a very early age. Also it’s comfortable, in some ways, and it can work for a while, too, early on when attraction is high. But after a while that myth fails to work. It just does not work. Doubling down on the choreplay and provider game does not work.

    Men ought to be about stuff that works, discarding stuff that does not work no matter who taught it to you, or how you got it. Who keeps a broken toaster around? Who sticks that busted fridge in the garage because of sentiment? Once you learn how to drive on ice, who would want to go back to doing it wrong, steering out of the skid instead of into it?

    The thing about Game that’s worth repeating is this: Game can work even when you don’t believe it will. Agree & amplify feels stupid at first, but it works. Cocky / funny may be a stretch, but it works. But heck, stony ZFG silence properly deployed can work, even when a man is worried sick inside that he’s only making things worse.

    That proves the validity of Game – you don’t have to believe in it to see it affect a woman. You just have to fake on it a bit until it becomes more like 2nd nature, more like conscious competence. Yeah, ok, 2 steps forward and one step back, or 3 forward 2 back, so?

    Women aren’t men with boobs. Getting that fact fully internalized, fully programmed, is the first step out of a dead bedroom.

  37. @Blaximus I say fvck Kevin Powell, too, based on knowing him from Queens College days up until now. He’s always been a pen hustler and whatever gets him the most notice he’ll write about. Might explain his failed political run: not enough true face time to pull that one off.

  38. Halfway through reading this I was thinking about my kids, and how they will (and already do) view their stay at home mother, in contrast to how they’ll view me. I was angry, kind of sad, but mostly angry. Then I felt guilt. I felt guilty for never acknowledging my own father’s sacrifice for me and my brothers and Mom. In fact until I had kids, I always did almost the opposite. So I texted him and thanked him and let him know I understand now.
    So thank you.. I needed to acknowledge his hard work and sacrifice, but I just didn’t realize it yet. In a way it is validating for my own situation.

  39. @Rollo

    I really appreciate this post its opened my eyes to a lot. I have an odd situation. I’m a 26 year old father to a 7 year old boy, a college student majoring in audiology with a minor in music theory. I’ve maintained the same full time job for 7 years and I’d like to think I have a pretty good head on my shoulders. My sons mother is the same age, a stay at home mom, hasn’t been officially “employed” since our son was a year old, no college education (no diploma but a GED) & still lives at home with mom and dad. (I also moved home with my parent but only because I no longer want to do the roommate thing, planning on purchasing a house early next year) but she’s on some high horse because I’m so busy to where I only get to have him every other weekend. (Which was her agreement 2 years ago) For example she told me I’m pretty much useless and should just sign over my rights. which hurt a bit because I feel I do the best I can in my situation. When I have him we play chess, I teach him martial arts, when the weather allows we play baseball etc… I receive constant threats of her going for full custody because I got caught with pot once. She tells me she needs nothing from me but complains about my contribution when I already pay child support. I try to explain there’s no way I can take care of a child if I can’t take care of myself but that went nowhere. Any advice on how to not be affected by her actions? I’m pretty stern but when it comes to my child there’s a vulnerability that surfaces. Not to mention before I got her pregnant she had a number of 18 guys by the time she was 19 and now all of a sudden is a sophisticated woman. I was just the unlucky sucker 7 years ago.

    1. @Brian Jinks
      “Any advice on how to not be affected by her actions? I’m pretty stern but when it comes to my child there’s a vulnerability that surfaces.”

      How often do you see your child Brian anyway you could spend time with him and create a sense of dread for your wife? Or create a male place for you and some buddies? Have you heard of The way of men by Jack Donavan?
      I play rugby to expose all the worst parts of myself an attempt to mold new better ways on dealing with uncomfortable situations.
      I don’t know yet how women handle control of their offspring. It appears in your case having a physical buddy ship may help you out a lot. renderer to be your own mental point of origin.
      I would also think that you buying both Rollos books and journaling in them.
      Start with book one than book two.
      May your week be filled with wonder of the male spirit.

  40. @rugby11ljh we aren’t married. We were two young sex driven kids that slipped up at the age of 18. I have my son every other weekend so twice a month. Summer and holidays I have him more because he’s in school. I have him every other weekend because her new boyfriend has kids of his own and my son spends time with them when I don’t have him. But for some reason it’s a problem & I don’t do enough? It’s confusing & frustrating. I have a copy of rational male just started reading.

  41. @Brian,

    Yo are lucky your kids are young. The older they get the less positive influence you can exert with children. It’s VERY difficult once they hit their teens.

    @SJF and others suggested to me reading The Way of Men by Jack Donovan. I am halfway through it, highly suggested and good reading.

    @SJF has sent me some nuggets that I copied into my journal notes which I refer to now and then when it’s needed. I’ve also gone back to some Rollo’s early blog posts to get more foundational info. DAMN GOOD STUFF!

    Find Rollo’s post from two weeks ago on Never Take a Woman Fishing. Find time to do male only things with your boy. Good luck, don’t ever give up, even when you fel down and out. This site is a powerful inspiration and by FAR the best resource available for men who seek self-improvement.

  42. @Roused thanks I’ll be sure to search the book & read more post. I’ve just recently discovered the red pill a few months back I suppose now is the digesting process

  43. A whole lot of whinging and are you on the drugs? There is no feminine conspiracy and if my father had been more around and kinder/beta when I was younger I would be better adjusted and more sane! I’d probably date more/better. You are so divorced from reality and enjoy your self pity.

  44. I am a mother to 4 boys, soon to be 5. This was very informative, thank you. I have always encouraged “guy time” between my husband and boys. Your writing only affirms my position.

  45. Rollo, good posts.

    Like many Beta males, late to the party and deciding what to do next. Could default to Game – will have to learn Game; yet, at my age Amused Mastery might be a good, safe place to begin. Could join men going their own way.

    Having gone through fatherhood, divorce and the workplace, I’m leery of women and children.

    It seems like women and children have been “weaponized” like potential mines waiting to go off. Just an accusation from a woman or child can make a man’s life miserable. You seem to deal with the threat with Game. Could you write something about Game and the weaponization of women and children?

    In regards to Red Pill parenting, I agree with your approach. Yet, I think it has about as much a chance as any parent does today of passing on the parents’ values to the child. Many parents have lost their children to the “culture” and the child’s free will.

  46. This is some cult-like shit. You men who define yourselves by your perceived “masculinity” are just as bad as those crazy women who “embrace femininity” and paint with period blood and shit. Two sides, same exact damn coin.
    Instead of indoctrinating your kid to be stereotypically masculine or feminine, how about you just, I don’t know, allow them to grow into a personality themselves? If you don’t want “the village” raising your kid, fine, make it clear from an early age how important it is to be an individual rather than following the trends of the culture. But you don’t need to raise them to be a 1950s jock asshat just for the sake of being “manly.” Instead of having a males-only space like some kind of 3rd grade “Boyz Rool Girlz Drool” dumbass club, how about just giving your child their own personal space, just for them, so they can develop themselves without the invasion of a bro-dad trying to indoctrinate them to alpha-hood.

    By the way, teaching your daughter to be dependent on a dude is the most garbage idea. I was raised by a single mom, if she didn’t have her shit together and wasn’t capable of creating her own security without relying on a man, we would’ve been stuck with one of her cunty boyfriends and totally fucked.

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