Red Pill Parenting – Part II

Father-Son1

What I’m about to detail here will be a revolutionary act; I’m going to give men some prescriptive advice on how I believe they should go about raising their children from a Red Pill perspective. As most of my readers know I do my best to provide observations and connect dots, from there I expect men (and women) to form their own takes on what I’m seeing and either challenge those observations or develop some actionable practice that best suits their own circumstances.

I’ll be breaking that protocol here, but the premise still applies; what I think might be universally applicable to raising and mentoring the next generation may need to be modified for what your experience and circumstances dictate.

That said, the very idea that I would inform or instruct men (and by association women) on how I think a healthier, more durable generation of men might be developed in a Red Pill awareness is tantamount to being a hate crime today. My suggesting that boys and girls would benefit greatly from a Red Pill aware father is a frightening, seditionary act in a feminine-primary social order.

As things stand on a societal level now, just the mention of Red Pill truths in casual conversation will engender either ridicule or hostility. As Red Pill awareness spreads it will be considered subversive, particularly in a social order founded on the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primary social prioritization.

I don’t have too much positive to say about Roosh these days, but one thing I had to agree with was his recent assessment of how it’s necessary for men to meet in secret gatherings and maintain (as best as possible) a state of constant anonymity if they wish to discuss anything counter to feminine-primary social doctrine. Main stream media in feminine-primary society will characterize this need for anonymity as indicative of cowardice or a lack of conviction; bitter men just contenting themselves in their private anger and poisoning the minds of whomever will listen to them.

They need this characterization for now because men have something to lose. They fear having their bread taken away from them – the same bread that feminine-primary society expects men to provide the very women who would use it to extort a desired complacency from men. Cowardice is rooted in the fear of having something to lose. Once men become largely indifferent to that bread being forthcoming, that’s either when they snap, or that’s when they start a revolution.

ScribblerG (a.k.a. Glenn) had a good reminder for men in the last thread:

Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. At best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself.

I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later, wondering if my daughter would ever realize all I sacrificed to provide for her and her mom? I’d wonder if she’d ever get that I sacrificed being as close to her as her mother is to her for her wellbeing? That her closeness with her mom as a result of having a stay at home mom until she was 5 was a consequence of my efforts, not her Mom’s?

Guess what – nobody wants to hear it. Nobody gives a shit what sacrifices you make to be a good father and provider – it’s all about Mom. It’s all about the kids. Dad’s are at best seen as second best Moms most of the time. And even when we are “in charge”, we can be dismissed as superfluous in myriad ways.

Many men adapt by becoming second mothers and wives in the household – and the entire culture encourages this. Try being a traditional male at parent teacher night or at the pre-school or even the Boy Scout troop…Fatherhood and a family is not what it once was either. Trust me, learn from my experience. Your kids will very likely not appreciate all you’ve done for them.

Of course, I excuse all the fundo-christian-demi-god-uber-alpha-ripped-11 inch cock-men of steel™ here from this commentary. For you guys, it’s 1956 and your life is like Wally and the Beav…

Just like men subscribe to two sets of books – old and new social rule sets that contradict the other – I think our ideas of marriage fall into this same contradiction. When marriage was a social contract and not so much a legal one involving the state, the old set of books applied well to that institution. This old set of rules about marriage and what men could expect from that largely socially-enforced institution worked well and in a complementary paradigm. From the Little House on the Prairie days up to the post-war era, the first set of books worked well with regard to marriage and fatherhood.

After the sexual revolution, the second set of books took social preeminence. Optimizing Hypergamy and all of the social and legal paradigms that make it the foundation of our present social order took priority. Yet, both men and women still cling to the old order, the first set of rules when it comes to a man’s role as a husband and a father, and simultaneously expect him to adopt and promote the feminine-primary interests of the new feminine-primary order.

Fathers are expected to follow the edicts of conventional masculinity with regards to their provisioning for a family, but are also expected to adopt, embrace and internalize their popularized role of being superfluous, ridiculous or even angry and abusively resistant to the second set of rules.

In other words, the expectation is that he should  be happy in his sacrificial role of provider, happy in his lack of appreciation for it or his presence, and happy to have the ‘village’ of society raise his children into the next crop of confused, frustrated adults while he’s doing it. He should be happy in his presence being devalued, but be held responsible for his lack of presence that his sacrifices demands.

Oh, and he should also feel a sense of smug pride when he see another man being pilloried for the same lack of his superfluous presence in his family’s life.

Raising Kids

I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.

You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them. Your presence is only as superfluous as you allow it to be. While you will never be appreciated for it in any measurable sense, you will be liable for it, so my advice is to make the most of it in a Red Pill respect. Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order. If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding.

Understand now, the Feminine Imperative wants you to be despondent about your role.

Understand this, your presence, your influence, will only be as valuable or as appreciated as you are willing to make it to yourself. Your Red Pill aware influence in your kids’ lives needs to matter to you first, because it will never be appreciated in your time, and in fact will be actively, hostilely, be resisted by a world saturated in feminine-primacy.

Being a mother and birthing a child is a constantly lauded position today. By virtue of being a mother, women are rewarded and respected in society. Men must add fatherhood to their burden of performance just to avoid the societal default of being vilified.

The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.

In Preventive Medicine I detail part of our present feminine-primary conditioning and how the imperative raises boys to be Betas and girls to be caricatures of Strong Independent Women®. Part of this was based on the essay Teach Your Children Well and the early ages at which this begins. The first, most primary truth you need to accept as a father is that if you don’t teach your children Red Pill truths there is an entire western(izing) world that is already established to raise them in your absence.

‘The Village’ will raise your kids if you don’t. You will be resisted, you will be ridiculed, you will be accused of every thought-crime to the point of being dragged away to jail in your imparting Red Pill awareness (in the future I expect it to be equated with child abuse). The Village will teach your boys from the most impressionable ages (5 years old) to loath their maleness, to feel shame for being less perfect than girls and to want to remake their gender-identity more like girls.

The Village will raise your daughters to perpetuate the same cycle that devalues conventional masculinity, the same cycle that considers men’s presence as superfluous and their sacrifices as granted expectations. It will raise your daughters to over-inflate their sense of worth with unearned confidence at the expense of boys as their foils. It will teach them to openly embrace Hypergamy as their highest authority and to disrespect anything resembling masculinity as more than some silly anachronism.

The good news is that for all of these efforts in social engineering, the Feminine Imperative is still confounded by basic biology and the psychological firmware evolved into us over millennia. That basic root reality is your greatest advantage as a father.

Raising Boys

I’m often asked when I believe would be the best time to introduce a boy to the Red Pill. A lot of guys with teenage sons want to hand them a copy of The Rational Male before they hit 18, or maybe when they’re 15, some even say 12 is really a good time. While it’s flattering for me to hear men tell me how they gave their teenage sons a copy of my book, I have to think that this is too late.

I’ve been a father to a teenage daughter for a while now and in my 20’s I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.

By the time that kid is 10 they’ve already internalized the stereotypes and social conditioning of the Blue Pill and they will start parroting these memes and behaving and believing in accordance with that conditioning. By the time they are in their tweens and beginning to socially interact with the opposite sex, the Blue Pill feminine-primary conditioning will be evident to any man with a Red Pill lens to hear and see it. That Blue Pill internalized ideology will seem natural and logical to them even though they couldn’t tell you how they came to their formative beliefs.

The time to start exemplifying Red Pill awareness in a parental capacity is before you even have kids. As I detailed in the first of these posts, an internalized Game that results from strong Red Pill awareness and a positive, dominant Frame control are imperative before you even consider monogamy. That Frame becomes the foundation for your parenting when your children come along.

I realize this isn’t exactly helpful for men who came to Red Pill awareness after their kids were in their teens, but it needs to be addressed for men considering becoming a father. Ideally you want to impart that same Red Pill awareness during a boy’s formative years. Children completely lack the capacity for abstract thought until their brains fully form and they learn to develop it. The age of 5 is the time when kids are most impressionable and learn the most, but they do so by watching behavior. So it’s imperative for a Red Pill father to demonstrate positive, conventional masculinity during these years.

Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.

Within this male-space your son needs to learn about his eventual burden of performance.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked. This is important because it not only teaches him to value his masculinity, but also to accept the responsibilities of his burden of performance.

Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.

He needs to learn that men and women are different and only deserving of earned respect, not a default respect granted to the female sex. Eventually he needs to learn to accept his own dominance and mastery in a world that will tell him his sex is a scourge on society.

Your presence in his life is an absolute necessity if you are to thwart the efforts of fem-centrism. I was asked about Red Pill fathering in my last Christian McQueen interview and my first inclination was to say do things with your son. Even if that’s playing chess, being the man, his model for masculinity is vitally important and to impart this to him you need to have a mutual purpose. As I’ve written before, women talk, men do. Men get together socially with a purpose, an action, a hobby, a sport, a creative endeavor, etc. and then they communicate while working towards that purpose.

Your son must learn this from a very early age, particularly when he’s likely to be forced into feminine-primary social structures and conditioned to communicate like girls do in school as well as in popular media. One of the tragedies of our age is a generation of Blue Pill men raising their sons to adopt feminine-primary communication preferences because they themselves had no experience with conventional masculinity. They can’t teach what they don’t understand.

Demonstrate, do not explicate is true of dealing with women, but it is also an imperative of Red Pill parenting. Your son (and daughter) needs to see his mother’s deference to your dominant Frame and beneficent authority. He needs to understand on a rudimentary level that his mother responds to your positively masculine Frame. Again this is imperative since your kids will see a much different narrative being displayed in popular culture and their schooling.

Show him how a man presents himself, how a man reacts to a threat, how a man commands a dog, how a man interacts with, and helps, other men he values. Do not think that you’ll start teaching him Red Pill awareness when he’s old enough to understand it. By then it’s too late, he’s resistant to it and thinks his Beta Game is more appropriate. Your son will follow your lead, but that must start from day one, not age 12. I have a good friend now who’s 16 year old son is literally following the same path his Beta father; he’s moved in with his estranged ex wife because he was closer to his ONEitis girlfriend. Now she’s bailed on him and he’s stuck with his neurotic mother.

The consequences of a Blue Pill conditioned mindset also start early. I’ve seen 10 year old boys despondent over not having a girlfriend. I’ve counseled a girl who’s former teenage boyfriend stabbed and killed her new boyfriend 32 times because she was his ONE. They get ONEitis because they are taught to be predisposed to it.

As your son moves into his teenage years that connection you began in his formative years should strengthen. You can begin to introduce him to Red Pill awareness, but in all likelihood you’ll notice him using his own Red Pill lens when it comes to dealing with girls. His grasping the fundaments of women’s dualistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy and how this will be used against him in the future is something imperative that he learns later.

This is the time to reinforce that Red Pill sensitivity and capitalize on his own awareness by introducing him to Red Pill ideas he wasn’t aware of. Bluntly, overtly declaring Red Pill truths might make sense to you, but plucking out bits of his own Red Pill observations and expanding on them in his teen years will probably be received better and more naturally.

One thing I know about teenage boys and girls is that if you try to tell them something profound they roll their eyes and blow you off, but if you wait for the right moment to let them come to that thing you want them to learn on their own then they’re receptive to it. Your demonstrating Red Pill awareness doesn’t stop when they’re teens.

Raising Girls

Much of what I’ve outlined for raising boys would cross over into raising a daughter, however there are some differences in approach. Exemplifying a Red Pill ideal, and demonstrations of positive, dominantly masculine Frame control are still the highest priority, but more so is the modeled behavior of the girl’s mother toward you and that Frame. If your wife resists, ridicules or mocks your Frame, this is the lesson your daughter will be taught about masculinity. You must model her perceptions of masculinity while your wife models the aspects of femininity – for better or worse.

A lot of how you approach raising a daughter can be based on your Red Pill understanding of how to deal with women, and based on much of the same basic gender-complementary foundations. The same Game principles you would use with women are actually founded on behavior sets that little girls learn and enjoy while they’re growing up. Amused Mastery is a prime example of this.

You will notice that root level Hypergamy manifests itself in girls at a very young age. In Warren Farrell’s book, Why Men Are The Way They Are he notes that girls as young as 7 already have a a definition of the (celebrity) “boys they’d like to kiss and the boys they’d like to marry.” No doubt girls’ acculturation influences their preferences, but the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks archetypes are part of their mental firmware.

As a father, your primary role will be one of modeling the provider security seeking aspect of the Hypergamous equation. While that comfort and control is necessary it tends to be a trap for most Betas. The challenge most Beta fathers fail at is embracing and owning the very necessary Alpha / Dominant role that makes up the other side of that equation.

The challenge is exemplifying Amused Mastery with your daughter, but in such a way that it balances Alpha dominance and control with rapport, security and comfort. In my post Myth of the Good Guy I make the case that adult women don’t really look for this balance in the same man. Alphas are for fucking, Betas are for long term security, and men who think they can embody both are neither sought after nor really believable. The root of this AF/BB mental separation of Hypergamous purpose-specific men can be traced back to the impression of masculinity that woman’s father set for her in her formative years.

Lean too far toward Alpha dominance and you become the asshole abuser who domineered poor mom while she was growing up. Lean too far to the Beta, permissive, passive and feminine side of the spectrum and the future men in her life will be colored by your deferring to the feminine as authority – thus placing her in the role of having to create the security she never expects men to have a real command of.

The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself. The challenge of raising a girl is embodying the dominant masculine man you will eventually be proud to call your son in law. Your daughter needs to be able to identify that guy by comparing him to the masculine role you set for her.

Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.

If you were uncomfortable experimenting with Red Pill concepts while you were single, you’ll be even more so in raising a daughter. The most important impression you need to leave her with is that men and women are different, but complementary to the other. She needs to know that your masculine dominance is beneficial to both her and her mother, and your personal mastery of you conditions and environment as an aid to her and the family. She needs to understand that girls and women are, sometimes, excluded from male-spaces, particularly if you also have a son. In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

505 comments on “Red Pill Parenting – Part II

  1. @redlight.

    An excellent point. Just how attractive are those Maybelline encrusted, pushup bra girls when the cosmetics come off?

  2. Not to keep flogging a deceased equine, but…

    SD- ” Bottom line, either a girl wants you or not. If she does, converse normally and bring her back to your place or hers. If not, why bother with the A1-DHV-Build Rapport,escalate crap hard shit test!, freeze out, build kino, extract to secondary location ($20 cover please) , escalate, LMR, cycle.
    All of that effort to get an uninspiring lay because she only saw you as “relationship material” .We all know what THAT means. ”

    This statement may in fact be true, initially.

    I would submit that many women do not ” know ” what they want at any given time. Their main program runs on feels and emotion. I am not advocating for pestering or stalking a dame, but it is not necessary to take an INITIAL indication of her not liking or being interested in you as the gospel truth, and you go scurrying away with tail firmly ensconced between legs.

    YaReally is the master of explaining these type of things.

    It’s good for a man to see if he can turn around an initial stance of disinterest by a girl. What’s the harm? Not saying it should cost money with cover charges or whatever, but just a friendly ” let me see if I can break you like I was Ivan Drago ” kind of exercise.

    When I used to go to clubs with the express intention of getting some Tang, if I would’ve left after approaching 10 chicks and getting disinterest, I would’ve missed out on some ass. Believe it or not, the chick with most of her ass and boobs falling out of her clothes still wants to give off an air of not being too easy or that she is ” special “. She might have left home with full intentions of getting laid herself, but she will front like that’s not the case ( at least until enough alcohol has washed down her throat anyway ).

    In public, some chicks can be downright mean spirited. They aren’t special or smart or even as tough as they may come off as.

    If a guy wants to try a few things on these broads, I’m all for it. Look, women talk about freezing out guys all the time, like it was a damn sport. It boosts their self esteem. But if you catch her off guard by making her laugh you begin breaking down her bullshit defenses. If a man has some tips and clues on how to confront these artificial hurdles, there’s no harm in giving it a go.

    They get approached so often ( even a shitload of the ugly ones ) that they have their routines down pat.

    But they are not tactical. Not in their natures.

    They are most often at a disadvantage.

  3. Deep down women want fathers for their kids.

    It’s more precise to say that the average mother prefers the involvement of the father in childrearing as long as it happens on her terms only. She wants any interaction with men in her life to be completely optional. This is the same reason I disagree with Rollo’s assessment here:

    The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.

    The FI very much wants you as a father to feel hugely important and worthy as long as that’s what the mother of your children wants. You’re supposed to internalize from boyhood the tenet that whatever status and rights you have in society are completely dependent on female approval. Female social primacy couldn’t function otherwise. So yes, you should be very involved in your children’s lives, as long as their mother wants it, and as long as you’re doing it in the way she wants.

    It’s not that the FI wants to see fathers die. Dead pack mules cannot carry packs anymore after all, dead betas cannot pay for that new pair of shoes or that summer vacation. What it wants are working, talking corpses.

  4. @hoellenhund2

    What it wants are working, talking corpses.

    Robots. The same ones men are expecting to give them sex and employers are expecting to replace all the employees.

    Everybody wants them, but nobody’s gonna like what everyone else uses them for.

  5. I gave the toast at my father’s retirement party last night. It went well. Everyone laughed at the expected moments. My father loved it. My mother was a bit embarrassed, but didn’t make a scene or anything. I think the red pill shit just went completely unnoticed by everyone except my dad. Just for context he has been talking about getting a camper and driving to Alaska for a few years. My mother doesn’t want to go for some asinine reason.

    Alright, I’ll did my best to keep this from sounding like an eulogy.
    Your journey began as you graduated from high school and rode off into the sunset on your motorcycle to study business at the University of xxx.. After a stellar college career filled with pranks, partying and crew you graduated and set out to fulfill your lifelong dream of becoming a retail manager. Battling into the headwinds of a global recession you were able to find a job with xxx. Where they left you high and dry and after 10 dedicated years to be unemployed with a SAHM and three children. With more hard work and dedication you were able to fight through that situation to land a job with xxx. You worked your way into being a specialist at opening new stores, and eventually store manager. An icon. A leader of men.
    It took becoming a father for me to fully appreciate the sacrifices you made. It’s just something a child and at times even a wife cannot appreciate. And you never once complained. I can only imagine what it’s like being unemployed as a father. Not to mention moving your family across the country or dealing with the “people of xxx ” for 35 years. But you played the cards you were dealt.
    It was a thankless job. I am here to tell you that as you already know, your sacrifices have paid off. You did an amazing job. Thanks to your sacrifices Mom was able to stay home with us. We were able to attend great schools, and we ended up in a beautiful part of the country. We have all graduated from college. We have good jobs. Amazing husbands, wives and children.
    And now I’m going to be audacious enough to give advice to a man 30 years older than me. You’ve been the leader at work and now it’s time to be the leader of your home. It is time to put yourself first. I am serious when I say this. You owe it to yourself. Put yourself before your kids, before the grandkids. And put yourself before Mom. You deserve it. Find a mission that will give you self fulfillment. Spiritually, socially, physically. Whatever you want. If you want to get a camper and drive to Alaska, get a camper and say “*mothers name*, get in the car.” and drive to Alaska. If you want to hike the Appalachian Trail, hike the Appalachian Trail. Also make some friends. Find a group of men to socialize with. Try and look past politics, or class. Men cannot be happy without other men. Maybe we can start with a yearly camping trip, just us guys. Finally, make sure you take your grandkids over the weekends. As much as humanly possible.
    Regardless of what you choose to do you have some fun, and enjoy life. We all love you and thanks for working so hard.
    Cheers.

  6. hoellenhund2:

    I think the FI is fully capable of killing off the pack mules. FI is ultimately a feral thing, about feels. Women don’t know how to lead men. Men need to self discover, learn how to lead themselves, or learn how to work with and follow other men.

  7. “I think the FI is fully capable of killing off the pack mules.”

    Always a bigger fish though. ISIS and islam come to mind. Hard to defend against men like that without the pack mules.

  8. Maybe fathers are intended only to be obedient pack mules and wallets summoned at will. But everybody is forgetting again what the children say about it. The question always comes: where’s my dad? Why no dad?

    For which no mommy blog or feminist trumpeting single moms has any answer. That’s where they kick the dirt and stammer. Or on Fathers Day say the kid can make the teddy bear male and call him Dad or something. Or petition to have the school call it Parenting Day.

    Though it does suggest a new rule: Hypergamy doesn’t care what the children think.

  9. @ Striver:

    ” Women don’t know how to lead men….”

    Men have to lead women, not vice versa !!
    The misery we have today is a result that a big part of men don’t lead any longer.

    @ Rollo:

    Thank you for this Post. It’s really time, that start to act appropriately.
    And the first and most important part of that is to raise our sons right.

  10. If I could emphasize one lesson to the younger me…if I was parenting me…it would be “pre-selection”.

    When I was a kid and right up to until learning game 5 years back, I was afraid of having other girls talk to me because i feared losing my girl or my target girl.

    Not anymore. I see now the power of having other girls talking to you. Sure it can backfire and turn a girl off. But usually it’s a trigger for action of some kind: either walking away or chasing you.

    I’ve have some married but very hot female friends. I’m friends with them because there is no pressure. But they are always very cool and flirty. So to the outside world they appear to be girls who are interested in a very genuine way. Other girls pick this up.

    I had a few girls say “are you two together?” when i was having drinks with my married friend. It’s because we’re so comfortable around each other, i can practice game on her, she’ll erupt into laughter which to girls watching is a trigger for envy. All girls like a guy who can be cool but cause a girl to erupt into laughter WITHOUT being a clown doing it.

    They sense those giggles are “tingles”…

  11. It goes without saying, but I’m going to say it anyways, what rollo said about a man needing to find intrinsic value from being a father, and not expecting others to respect or reward that behavior, goes doubly true for the opposite. Meaning, for those like me who don’t plan to become fathers, don’t expect others to see that as a wise, rational, and respectable choice. And don’t try to explain yourself to them either, trying the rouse such a recognition of your rationality. Don’t expect your boss to promote you over the family man because, as you would try to reason, you have more time and energy to devote to the job. Though fathers don’t get much respect, at least they aren’t met with the suspicion and sometimes contempt that older unmarried, childless men are met with at times. Find value for yourself by possessing the power living a life unencumbered provides, savor that freedom, bask in that joy, and make moves to become even more independent via having your own business, etc., so you don’t have to depend on bosses to move up the ladder.

  12. @Pyar Aly

    You bring up an interesting point. I realized in the military that with the FI being the mission statement of modern society, a man -insofar as open society is concerned-is judged by his usefulness to women.

    If he is young and going to college, its celebrated socially . Why? Because he’s now able to earn more money for a woman.

    If a man joins the military, he’s also socially celebrated. Why?Because he is Guarding The Female Nest, albeit on very macro scale .

    Next we come to marriage. Men are held up in high public esteem for getting married- as he is finally committing all he is and financially ever will be to a female. While this may not be a universal attitude, every woman I’ve interacted with -including my own family- believes innately a man’s ultimate purpose in life is to be the best appliance he can be for a Singular Female. The notion a man can decide if it’s right for him or not to marry is thus patently offensive to women.
    It’s the Hal 9000 “I’m Afraid I Can’t Do That, Dana ” message for them.

    Thus a single man who openly admits it in business, politics, or other socially prominent activities risks being targeted ruthlessly by women for coupling (not necessarily a good thing ) , and also being marginalized. How dare this mere male decree himself above his Sacred Duty to sacrifice himself for a female?

  13. @SD
    Thanks for sharing your experiences and views, this is one area of masculine development that really interests me, but also presents some issues.

    Imagining the possibilities for a childless, unmarried Man who can pour all the time, money, and resources He would otherwise spend on the children, wife, house, etc. into self-fulfillment and finding His own joy seems outstandingly amazing to me.

    OTH, I’ve heard it cited that the two times that a man’s income and productivity shoot up is after he’s married and after he has children. It has also been shown that, on the average, married men overall do better financially than men who remain single.

    I have wondered about the causes for this and what I can do to sidestep the productivity pitfalls of remaining unmarried and childless. Do single men choose not to make as much money simply because they don’t need to, and would rather avoid the hassle of long hours? Is the FI sabotaging the financial prospects unmarried and childless Men in favor of family men? Likely it’s both, but the real issue for me is, what can a Man do to make sure His productivity does not dwindle simply because He does not have a family to support?

  14. @Pyar Aly
    Numbers can be deceptive. Yes married men earn more money then unmarried bachelors. The context missing from the stats is why.

    If the married men surveyed are earning more as a matter of personal motivation to improve as employees/entrepreneurs, that’s one thing. While I’d like to believe this is the case and the family/kids are simply externalities, it is my observed reality that the married men aren’t offered a practical choice.

    Whatever the heady emotions were going into the marriage ceremony, eventually the wife makes it clear under modern FI rules that his continued participation in the family unit depends on his income potential, full stop. If he turns down a promotion, changes careers, or exits his high paying job wifey craps a brick and hits the road, with the kids in tow and Backup Husband #2 on speed dial. You didn’t think women stopped plating guys just because she got married, no?

    Next-and this is simply my observations- women tend to go stratospherically off the wall with silly expenses post marriage. Overpriced throw pillows, repeated remodels of the home, furniture and decor changes almost monthly, switching leased SUVs every two years, overpaying for basic necessities with designer labels (look hubby VERSACHE VEGAN IMPORTED SOAP TRAYS! $999.99 on discount !!!) mean a modern husband without Stalin-level control of the family finances will be quickly ruined. Put simply , a husband who lets his wife run amok as mandated by the FI will HAVE to work harder just to keep the entire financial ship from sinking. He can try making a budget and forcing her to stick to it, but its a joke in modern times. He may as well command her to poop golden eggs .Shell say “yeah, sure baby lets pay off our debt” and then run up another shopping bill . She frankly has no reason to listen at all-in some places the law means he’s obligated to pay her debt even if they divorce ,so ‘I’m out’ isn’t even an effective deterrent.

    It’s a tragic situation; no matter how much hubby earns its never enough. There’s always more Pier One bric a brac then there are senior level jobs.
    Additionally companies have more leverage over married male employees because of this ;some bosses can be jerks to married staff and know the males don’t have a choice .Its work, or get Frivorced and pay anyways minus your family.

    A single male employee may not make as much numerically, but they dont have to -as they have total control of every penny spent. This autonomy , in my estimation, is worth more then any physical currency in existence.

    TL:DR, I’d rather be single making 40K and keeping it then married making 100K and sinking into six figure debt.

  15. @ SD
    I fully agree.
    That is one of the many reason i will not marry.
    If you look at that kind of contract ( Marriage = Contract) with business knowledge, people would call you insane, crazy or worse than if you sign up such a contract.

    I want haaaaaalf…that’s what they always saying, LOL.

    IMO these topic is one of the most important topics Rollo has written about.

    We, as men, need to start acting right. Yes, a father has to start very early to raise his son(s) in a Red Pill way.

    The women have started the war…..

  16. Married men vs single men income…

    I’m an employer.

    My ideal employees are married confident betas. I usually end up with married delta’s though. (Using vox days terms)

    I won’t hire unmarried alphas as they are usually exceptionally lazy. I won’t hire less than a delta either, because they are usually incompetent. Less than delta’s are typically unmarried too.

    (My right hand guy is a married alpha though)

    So from what I see apply with me, never married men are usually a poor bet as employees.

    Divorced men are different though. Same categories as married men.

    I wonder if single guys making less are a result of what I just said. They are either alpha free spirits or they are incompetent losers. Both would make less.

  17. @ CaveClown

    The biggest enemy of a man is not a woman…it’s another man…..lol

    My father used to say this. He was damn right.

  18. @SD
    “This is a classic example of why I state game in the PUA form is very flawed.”

    You don’t really even know what game in the PUA from IS. And I see you still haven’t educated yourself so here I am again so people know not to take you seriously lol

    “You entertained a woman for a brief period of time, but didn’t get a damn thing back from her in return besides a basic social interaction.”

    1) He didn’t lead it anywhere, he probably could have but that was his decision not to attempt it.

    2) Guys who view social interaction as work, like “that was pointless, you didn’t get a damn thing in return” are like, that’s WHY you have your shitty headspaces and want to bring other guys into your negative shit where you think “how can I get laid without all this annoying “talking to people” shit, I just want to play Warcraft all day and sneak out of the shadows and get a girl and take her back to my lair! This pickup stuff sucks, you have to TALK to human beings, UGHHHH!! How am I supposed to take value from people if I have to actually ENGAGE them and treat them like human beings?? Wahhh!!”

    Here you go man, here’s Tyler’s vid on “How to minimize annoying socializing and just get laid (100% fool-proof method)”, he made it just for you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wcEJVzQzOk

    Like I get that you probably don’t understand that socializing is supposed to be fun in and of itself. A lot of introverts have that mindset esp when they start out in the game. But you’ll find that guys further along with better mindsets read what you wrote and raise an eyebrow because like Blaximus says “Men should talk to women because it’s fun”. Like, you don’t get how fucked up your wiring is.

    “She’ll be nice, she’ll humor you, but at the end of the day you and the paint contractor are in the same place where she’s concerned -square uno.”

    That was his choice (conscious or subconscious). There’s no reason he couldn’t have pushed that interaction further but he stayed in his comfort zone and rationalized why not to close her. Props for taking some action but like, he could have taken it further lol We all do that kind of thing so it’s not a big deal…like “oh it would be too weird to get her number now so I just won’t do it”. Part of PUA is about breaking those limiting beliefs. There are a lot of silly social norms that can be stomped on by a guy with value and that stomping is attractive to women. But it’s scary, especially in the daytime, so I won’t beat him up for not closing.

    “Neither of you banged her.Unless somethings missing from the story, neither of you will be either.”

    All that’s missing is a close attempt. Which is what “game in the PUA form” stresses. Always Be Closing that shit. The first thing ANY PUA would have told dwellerman is “why didn’t you go for the number? No that reasoning is dumb, go for the number next time, make shit happen” lol

    Paul Janka’s way of putting it is my favorite: “Look past immediate circumstances. Would holding up the line for a second be awkard? Ya, sure. But if you get that number and you two meet up and fuck and you spend the next 6 months in a relationship are either of you going to even REMEMBER the huffy painter chode who was upset that you held the line up for a minute? No. Look past immediate circumstances and think long-term.”

    Last half of this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebAmniBXB4I

    Don’t let other people’s social conditioning dictate your actions, and don’t let the environment hypnotize you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JncoKblu0Wc

    “Meanwhile she’s filtering thousands of muscular dudes off of Tinder and a few from her social circle for Alpha lays.The nature of the FI driven society means even middling attractive women have absurdly high options”

    This part is true. It’s just not relevant if you make an emotional impact on the girl. She’ll date the senior geneticist guys but fuck you. If you’re looking to be her Provider it’s tough going but if you’ve been paying any attention to the Red Pill you aren’t looking to be a Provider in the first place lol

    “My breaking point for realizing PUA was garbage is when I gamed a two set last month and the fat girl was dating a senior geneticist.”

    Yes, it’s PUA that’s garbage and not that you see yourself as garbage compared to some nerdy senior geneticist because you’re still subscribing to a socially conditioned value system. Guess that what geneticist is scared that she’s going to fuck a celebrity. And the celebrity is scared she’s going to fuck a sports star. It’s all retarded and your buying into it perpetuates it and your insecurity comes through in your subcomms which chicks are hardwired to pick up on so they can weed guys with shitty internals out.

    “Why the heck should a woman give a guy off the street the time of day when low SMV women punch that far above their paygrade? And in most cases they don’t.”

    They won’t give you the time of day because why would they. Read your post, do you sound like a guy even YOU would want to hang around? You’re this walking ball of negativity lol Like, I’m sure you think you’re hiding it when you’re out talking to girls but you can’t have mindsets like this and not have it come through.

    That girl will be sweet as sugar to a guy who knows he has more value than some science nerd. You can tell where a guy is in the game by his view on “those ungrateful bitches at the bar” lol If you’re still viewing them that way, like, all the pickup in the world isn’t going to help you, you have to work on your internal mindsets and stop being a value-taking negative little troll.

    “If a woman wants you primally, she’ll go 9/10s the way to make it happen. No game required besides not epically screwing up.”

    Yup. And this is a perfect way to fuck a lot of 5s, some decent 6s and the occasional 7-8, with, if you stick at this shotgun blast passive numbers game approach long enough MAYBE a 9 in your lifetime at some point if you haven’t settled down with a nice fat chick (guess how that senior geneticist ended up with that fat chick, he took your strategy of “no game required”, what a lucky guy lol).

    “I’ve laid women wearing PJs, so that’s not just some skimmed off BS.”

    That’s weird, you just said women have all these opportunities and have no reason to fuck normal guys in PJs when they have all these senior geneticists lined up. It’s almost like you’re just making shit up to inconsistently rationalize your experiences on the fly.

    “If she’s not interested….why bother with the A1-A2-A3-DHV LMR bullpucky?”

    Because some of us want to fuck hotter girls, and hot girls who have a lot of options won’t be throwing their vag at every dude who says hello and hasn’t demonstrated any value yet. But if you understand how to demonstrate your value and work a set and create enough emotional impact on her, that’s where she goes “actually this guy IS pretty attractive” and now you’re sticking your dick in a girl that most guys would be scared to approach and would tell themselves “that senior genetecist guy deserves her more than me, this PUA shit is STOOOPID” lol

  19. Meaning, for those like me who don’t plan to become fathers, don’t expect others to see that as a wise, rational, and respectable choice. And don’t try to explain yourself to them either, trying the rouse such a recognition of your rationality. Don’t expect your boss to promote you over the family man because, as you would try to reason, you have more time and energy to devote to the job.

    Well, duh. The reasoning is flawed to begin with. Married men have to work like oxes. Unlike single men, they have no choice in that matter. Their bosses know that, and squeeze them accordingly. They know they can get away with it. Single men have choices, and normally nothing ties them to one specific place or company. Not your idea of an ideal pack mule.

    Having said all that, I agree with you, but none of that is exactly news. Women are told they can have it all, and we’re right to call that a lie. But men can’t have it all either. It’s a simple fact, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Being a bachelor has its advantages and disadvantages. We as men all have choices to make, and should consider all possible consequences.

  20. @SD
    “You cannot negotiate attraction, not even using game. Either she finds you hawt, or she doesn’t.”

    lol this isn’t how it works at all. Women are attracted to high-value, high-value is demonstrated. This is biological wiring. If all they responded to were “hawt lookz” then nobody who isn’t in the top 1% of looks would be getting laid and shit like the Forever Alone club on the MISC bodybuilding forums wouldn’t exist.

    You’re just spouting social conditioned nonsense. The reason it actually DOES play out this way for you is because girls can pick up on how shitty your mindsets are.

    “PUA is about selling the lie that you can speak magic incantations and every woman will want you”

    lol

    “He could have sorted out how much she liled him by just saying hello and making lively small talk. DHVing , qualifying, etc….overcomplicates the plot.”

    …wait, so you want him to make an effort, but just don’t make a certain TYPE of effort. That’s like saying “look, if this person wanted to buy a car you shouldn’t have to show it to them, THAT’S not cool, you should just say you have a good car and if she wants to buy a car she’ll buy whatever shitty car you’re handing her. Why would you bother polishing it or tuning it up or parking it out on the lot where she can see it, QUIT TRYING SO HARD BRO YOU’RE OVERCOMPLICATING IT”

    “If she likes you and youre behaving like a masculine man”

    Oh, you mean like demonstrating high value and qualifying her which are things high-value masculine men do?

    “If not, why bother with the A1-DHV-Build Rapport,escalate crap hard shit test!, freeze out, build kino, extract to secondary location ($20 cover please) , escalate, LMR, cycle.”

    lol again if you just want to fuck fatties like that genetic scientist dude you’re popping wood over (and like that other guy said that’s not even an alpha job, I’ve partied with doctors and lawyers and shit most of them are chodes, the super alpha doctor badass you saw in Nip Tuck is a cartoon stereotype that’s unbelievably rare in real life).

    Also the secondary location can just be another area of the bar you’re in, or a convenience store, late night McDonalds, a fucking library lol, it doesn’t matter, you don’t have to spend any money if you don’t want to. LMR is a natural thing that happens, any guy who gets laid regularly knows it. You have to escalate because girls generally don’t escalate unless they’re severely under your SMV and you’re fucking an uggo.

    You want guys to do all that stuff but just not do it consciously. Same as feminists and anti-game chicks. “Just be a masculine man and do all these things that every Natural who gets laid does, but don’t THINK about it! It’s impure if you think about it!!!” Like, you probably don’t even get how silly what you’re saying is.

    “All of that effort to get an uninspiring lay because she only saw you as “relationship material” .We all know what THAT means.”

    lol is that where this bitter angst comes from? Is that what you kept running into?

    I don’t care if you hate life, but I’ll speak up so other guys know to ignore your shit. Unless they want to be like you, I mean, in that case go for it lol

    “Meanwhile the guy she actually does like literally just says hello and drags her upstairs with barely token resistance.”

    Totally how it happens. I watched a bunch of this real-life footage in those highly accurate American Pie documentaries.

    “Game should be used in my view to filter attracted women from unattracted ones”

    You don’t need “Game” for that. You just walk up to every girl and ask “hey, want to fuck me?” Anything else is pointless social interaction and “overcomplicating the plot” according to your own logic, which isn’t consistent, because it’s based on emotional bitter feels instead of detached real-world observation.

    “marriage is an economically permanent condition for most guys and they have to make do with where they are. This is where game should focus, IMO; there’s gonna be a lot of dudes who get burned after getting married, and we shouldn’t ignore them for it. Wed be just as married -yes I’m talking to you fellow bachelors-had we met the wrong woman with a slick enough bait and switch game.”

    Or we could teach them not to get married and give them the skills to play the field competently and qualify girls to screen them for long-term quality attributes so that if they DO decide to marry they aren’t a lead geneticist marrying some fat 2/10 that made moves on them because he listened to your advice.

    “Using game in the PUA context however is like a fat girl wearing yoga pants to a red carpet premiere hoping Brad Pitt is gonna tap that.”

    lol as long as you’re happy with your sex life, keep doing your thing. For the guys who aren’t happy with theirs, they should probably skip over your advice and check out some better resources. I recommend starting here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j72PZY_rzU4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_dKkLkox2Y

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR8LTd-SfBs

  21. @CaveClown
    “Now you would think that any sensible woman (especially a potential mother to your children) would excuse herself and run away. But her boring pedestrian life has now become exciting. She’s in a movie.”

    Oh man, all you guys are freakin’ awesome. Seriously.

    And then I speak and I think too much and get too rational and logical.

    Like I’m talking to a man and not a chick.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo0d10Tl_Go

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tmu_R2xeGo

    Hope those help. It’s a common sticking point, most of us guys are logical and used to communicating with other logical men. So when we go interact with women we worry about “but it doesn’t make sense if I say this after I said that!” Girls don’t care. Listen to girls yapping to eachother and they just bounce around subject to subject chasing emotions and feels.

    If you and I were talking and in the middle of talking about our careers I just blurted out “I wonder if I should get a puppy, do you think I should get one?” You’d be like “uhh wtf? Where did that come from? Why are we talking about puppies now?” But girls will just feel the emotions and go “omg TOTALLY!! I saw this one that was so cute!!” They live in the present, moment to moment, while guys live more in the past (how was the interaction going a minute ago) and future (how will the interaction go?) and we have trouble getting into the moment and just enjoying the interaction in the moment.

    Like take bars. Bars are designed to help get people into the present. You shut off your brain with alcohol so you stop dwelling on work problems from the week or future problems you have to think about, they blast loud music so girls can scream “EEEEEEE!!!!!” and run out to the dancefloor to shake their ass and forget they can’t pay their rent. Hot girls run around and keep your mind off your problems. Lights, smoke, shots, music, it’s all designed to help get you outside of your head because that’s when you’re going to have fun escaping from real life and you’ll come back next week for more of that.

    Most guys’ problem with pickup is that their logical brain can’t get out of its own way lol And they’re socially conditioned to believe that women are just “men with tits” lol So don’t feel bad, you’ll get used to it with more field experience.

  22. Likely it’s both, but the real issue for me is, what can a Man do to make sure His productivity does not dwindle simply because He does not have a family to support?

    Why does productivity concern you so much?

  23. @hoellenhund2
    “Are you saying it should be interesting, or that it is, by nature, always fun and interesting?”

    If it’s not fun and interesting, usually that means the guy isn’t pushing himself and is spending the interaction trying to think of stuff to talk about that’s interesting to the girl or looking to just leech value from their interactions.

    Like Julien says “half the time I don’t even NEED the girl to be there for me to be having fun, she can just silently stand there and I’m having a blast because I’m making myself laugh by expressing myself and saying shit that *I* think is funny, I don’t care if SHE thinks it’s funny. I could be talking to a wall and be having a blast because I’m not seeking value from other people…I generate my own fun. Every night out I have a great night because I’m entertaining myself.”

    When a guy finds everyone around him boring and uninteresting, it’s usually a sign that he himself is boring and uninteresting, because other people are mirroring what he’s bringing to the table. But it’s a LOT easier for guys to piss and moan about how stupid and boring and dumb girls are instead of lightening up and learning to have fun lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag0b0-AFQAA&t=1m

    Another way to look at it is that when you’re out interacting, if you WEREN’T ALLOWED to fuck the girl, like for whatever reason you can’t leave, you’re stuck in that room like it’s detention, and you’re not allowed to fuck the girls or even get their phone numbers, you CANNOT get laid from the interactions you’re going to have over the next 2 hours until the door to the room is unlocked and you can leave…AND, all the girls are fat lol you should STILL be able to have fun in that environment. If you CAN’T have fun in that environment, you’re seeking to take value from other people and not finding joy in the process itself, you’re outcome dependent and probably get frustrated viewing pickup and socializing as “work” instead of “fun”.

    Most of us started out that way, so it’s not a big deal. But ideally the goal should be to be able to have fun in that room full of fatties. That’s when you’re truly outcome independent and the girls and sex becomes a bonus instead of a “WELL I PUT IN 38.7% EFFORT AND SHE’S ONLY CONTRIBUTED 21.2% EFFORT THIS ISN’T WORTH IT!!! PUA SUCKS!!! I’M GOING TO SPEND 20 MIN WRITING A POST COMPLAINING ON A MESSAGE BOARD BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE AREN’T AS FUN AS I THINK I AM!!” lol

  24. YaReally,

    Thanks for the response to SD. I feel sorry for him with that attitude.

    You are an inspiration. Not a FR, but to confirm the fact that one can have fun w/o outcome dependence…Went to my homecoming yesterday and made a point of practicing daygame approach with undergrad and recent grad coeds….relaxed – no amogging to distract me, really had fun and learned to listen to them more. Opened my first two-set, tried engaging the fatty primarily to build the interest of her 6+ friend, (it works) concentrated on just conversing and remembering their names, what they were up to 3 years after graduation, etc. Later ran into them during the game, pretended to only remember the chubby’s name and expanded upon what they’d told me about themselves….kept my personal stuff to a minimum, with my goal being to learn about them. Didn’t push for a number or anything, just enjoyed their company and the fact that it was 100% easier for me to approach and hold their interest than it was a year ago before hanging out here. Goal will be to remember their names and stories for a year – in my FR ( and live that long lol), open with them again and see what happens. Moved on to the reunion reception and rather than dwell on how depressing the dried up old ladies from my class were (my “date” kept nodding off at the table!), proceeded to open with soon-to-graduate blonde-grey-blue-dyed butch senior coed (7-8), serving the drinks. Had a ball looking through the (our) yearbook with her, teasing out almost her whole life story, (she’s bi, says fuck alot to try to shock I guess, thinks she’s a SJW radical lol), held her attention without dwelling on myself, letting her tell her story endlessly haha. Her boss had to drag her back to work. Brought my AWOL (3 weeks) grocery store girl back into orbit with one text….A good day…..

    Andy,
    Great story; your father’s a lucky man. (My contacts are bothering me or something…)

  25. @yareally
    ‘You don’t really even know what game in the PUA from IS. And I see you still haven’t educated yourself so here I am again so people know not to take you seriously lol”

    You don’t know my headspace, or my game experience. Do not presume you do.

    You’ve written a small dissertation complete with video content on how I must be some uneducated , desperate rube . But what I havent seen-and point it out if you have posted it-are verifiable figures.I’ve seen boasts, ad hominems and videos.

    Where’s the stats?Where’s the approaches vs lays comparison? Heck, where’s the women? All I see are videos of guys blathering about social dynamics. Where’s the payoff?

    It reminds me of Ponzi schemers. Slick video, marginalization of anyone who dares question The Master’s Secret Formula for wealth building, and a facade covering empty BS.

    Is the Venusian Arts stuff entirely baloney? No.
    Yet the notion any out of shape scrub dudes with routines can just close an HB10 in the modern, FI society IS bull. Lots of so called instructors in the PUA space have been caught hiring models and faking FRs.

    If you look hawt, you don’t need hokey games , props, or peacocking. This of course means a man has to get his act together. Update his wardrobe , get a good haircut, pick out fashionable clothes that fit and look good, hit the gym. Don’t just do the latter to look buff- do it also for your health.

    Execute those steps and you can ditch the hokey PUA cult BS. Before the inevitable Ad Hominem about my being a cave dwelling fat neckbeard comes, note that I’ve been using PUA since 2004 or so. When I started it was an uphill battle. I was 20 years old, broke, and socially inept. I studied game and approached women all the time back when Facebook was an overgrown email client. My notch count didn’t improve much, although I got real good at making girls give me phone numbers . It might have to do with my hideous haircut, starving Ethiopian build and minus zero sense of style.

    Now I’m 31 and only slightly richer. Yet I’m actually** turning down pussy*** frequently -im not much of a fan of committing adultery with friends’ wives and girlfriends anymore. I had a soft harem going , but it was with women behind my engaged and married friends’ backs. Somehow the PUA gurus neglected to mention why it was women did that with utter contempt for their husbands, or how military men could come home from war to an empty house and an emptier bank account.I couldn’t figure out how real life Alpha males willingly surrendered their player ways to specific women, only to be shafted horribly via divorce or branch swinging. PUA held no answers, and it took me getting in shape mentally and physically to develop success with women. When I dropped the routines and picked up honest Masculinity and some weights, that’s when the notch metric went hockey stick for me.

    Seeking honest answers to the moral dilemmas and motivations behind women , I discovered the manosphere and this blog.

    BTW-this is Rollo Tomassis blog.Remember that before saying things like “so people know not to listen to you.” For all I and anyone else knows your personal N count could be <10.

  26. “Where’s the stats?”

    In the field.

    “Where’s the approaches vs lays comparison?”

    In the heads of guys who view social interactions as work.

    “Heck, where’s the women? All I see are videos of guys blathering about social dynamics. Where’s the payoff?”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR8LTd-SfBs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXYABu7KFls&t=10s

    “Yet the notion any out of shape scrub dudes with routines can just close an HB10 in the modern, FI society IS bull.”

    Well you certainly seem like the expert lol

    “If you look hawt, you don’t need hokey games , props, or peacocking.”

    Ok, explain the Forever Alone crew on the MISC bodybuilding forums. Or the ripped guys going home alone at the clubs every weekend. You won’t explain that stuff of course, because it doesn’t fit your socially conditioned narrative lol

    “My notch count didn’t improve much, although I got real good at making girls give me phone numbers . It might have to do with my hideous haircut, starving Ethiopian build and minus zero sense of style.”

    Probably, you should get jacked tall and ripped and white and wear a suit like these guys:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7PAYhmoKkA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PamWnKC5ueY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_4EUvnURs&t=50s

    “I had a soft harem going , but it was with women behind my engaged and married friends’ backs.”

    You sound like a stellar example to follow lol

    “Somehow the PUA gurus neglected to mention why it was women did that with utter contempt for their husbands, or how military men could come home from war to an empty house and an emptier bank account”

    They were busy explaining why you shouldn’t shit where you eat and should have enough abundance to not have to fuck your friends’ wives and fiances. Now we have Rollo to explain the rest. 🙂

    “I couldn’t figure out how real life Alpha males willingly surrendered their player ways to specific women, only to be shafted horribly via divorce or branch swinging.”

    There is tons of information on that out there these days. You may have been looking for answers from pickup that pickup wasn’t looking to explain. It’s not a math book’s fault that it doesn’t explain Shakespeare. And again now we have Rollo for that.

    “and it took me getting in shape mentally and physically to develop success with women.”

    That’s why I stress approaching it INTELLIGENTLY and writing Field Reports and analyzing. You can “just go out” every night for a year and still not get laid if you’re just banging your head against a wall and not trying to fix your sticking points lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oIoEgpfnaA

    “When I dropped the routines and picked up honest Masculinity and some weights, that’s when the notch metric went hockey stick for me.”

    The funny part is if I told you to describe “Masculinity”, you would just describe the stuff PUA teaches. But because you’ve got such bitter angst about PUA, you view it as different.

    “Seeking honest answers to the moral dilemmas and motivations behind women , I discovered the manosphere and this blog.”

    I think everyone learning PUA should read Rollo’s blog personally. It’s an amazing resource.

    “BTW – this is Rollo Tomassis blog. Remember that before saying things like “so people know not to listen to you.””

    I don’t see what this being Rollo’s blog has to do with you spouting shit that’s wrong and retarded. Guys should listen to Rollo, he’s smart as balls. I’m telling them not to listen to your shit lol

    “For all I and anyone else knows your personal N count could be <10."

    My N-count of my friends wives and fiances is 0.

    But hey, I encourage everyone to NOT trust me. Don't give me ANY credibility. Go out and try it yourself, all the stats and evidence you want is out there in-field. If you're struggling solo, work with others or get someone with more experience to help you out.

    I'd way rather guys don't read ANY of this and just go out and work on their game instead lol It's Sunday night, there's an Industry Night venue somewhere, hit it up and open some hot nightlife industry chicks for an hour and try to pull and if you don't then go home and get a good night's sleep for work. Either way write a Field Report and analyze it and/or get guys with more experience to analyze it. Don't listen to me, I'm just some neckbeard virgin lol

  27. @SD

    Before the inevitable Ad Hominem about my being a cave dwelling fat neckbeard comes …

    actually it was that you are a “walking ball of negativity”, or, to update that after your latest wall of negativity text, a well-dressed and fit walking ball of negativity

  28. @SD

    Put it this way: If you’ve been doing this stuff since 2004, and after *10 YEARS* of going out and talking to girls you still have fucked up negative mindsets like this and still view social interactions as “well what do *I* get out of interacting with other human beings?? You TALKED to that girl?? What a WASTE OF TIME if she didn’t SUCK YOUR DICK!! Why would you even TALK TO HER!! UGH!!!”, then it’s you that fucked up, not what PUA teaches, because there are guys on this very blog who’ve been learning game for a lot less than 10 years who can attribute improvements in their lives from the work they’ve put in learning game.

  29. @yareally

    “Here you go man, here’s Tyler’s vid on “How to minimize annoying socializing and just get laid (100% fool-proof method)”, he made it just for you:”

    100% fool proof you say?

    Sheeeeeit(Clay Davis Voice), I’m resigning my gym membership. Who needs proper style, a haircut, or a good masculine mindset and frame when you have a 100% foolproof method?

    Pay attention folks: dare question PUA and claims of 100% foolproof success, and youll be labeled a misanthrope with mental frame issues.Reminds me of how a certain church treated Galileo back in day.

    Forgive me if I don’t lend credence to orgs and people who claim wild success with women and have no independent proof of success beyond a one night number close.

  30. @SD
    Thank-you for proving you aren’t actually watching any of the videos I’m linking because you don’t actually want your world view shattered. You’re like a rabid dog I can just dangle a stick in front of and you’ll bite at it lol If you actually watched the video it’s Tyler making fun of the idea that there’s a 100% foolproof method.

    This’ll be my last reply to you for today because you’re clearly trolling, but thanks for the opportunity to link some useful vids for the lurkers and regulars who’ll get value out of them! 🙂 <3

  31. @ Cave

    I felt like I was overwhelming her. She was really really shy. So she didn’t say much, even her car story was only a few words and I thought she was going to have a panic attack.

    @ Forge

    One good tactic from Mystery is to, after she qualifies to you, be like “Holy crap you’re into X?! I LOVE X…this is crazy, I can’t even talk to you right now…” then turn your back. She’ll chase you, you let her pull your attention back.

    After that, you start with compliance tests.

    Excellent analysis! YaReally couldn’t have done better. I ran into a very similar situation. Maybe my discussion will give you some ideas?

    I asked a broad to dance late in the evening. (She was part of our group of 20+ people at the bar. Lots of us were new to each other, like this girl and me.) She hemmed and hawed about not liking the song that was being played but said she would dance with me when a song came on that she wanted to dance to. Really has to be into the song imagery and melody, apparently. (I run into this some but haven’t thought much about how to deal with it and dealing with it doesn’t fit my plan.) We discussed music some. She could have been blowing me off–a married girl–but I tried leaving several times and she kept trying to draw me back and I let myself get drawn back. I don’t consciously run away as part of gaming–I’m just generally in a quick-break-rapport mode when I’m dancing. I don’t like to get into convos generally and will Next a girl very quickly if she refuses a request to dance.

    This girl wanted attention. We attempted to chat (more about this near the comment’s end). A song finally was played that she wanted to dance to and we went and danced. She can freestyle and I experimented with turning her by the shoulders and she complied, so she wasn’t touch-avoidant and was compliant. She wasn’t a lead-follow dancer though–she was a freestyler. We danced several dances and she liked attention (see my maxim at the bottom of the comment). Dancing is inherently quasi-sexual, so no explicit sexualization was needed. She was Very Tipsy ™, it was GNO ™, she was In The Moment ™, and it could have Just Happened ™. Bing, bing, bing, bing.

    When I said good night, it seemed like she was expecting something more, like maybe for me to ask for her contact info. I’m sure now that the hook had been set, but I wasn’t aware at the time. Autism, go figure. The hook was probably set when I kept trying to leave and she kept trying to draw me back–maybe four cycles in thirty seconds. Her energy level seemed low to me, like your waitress, but it might have been shyness or maybe she’s just a quiet girl, or maybe she didn’t want to fight the decibel level in the room to make convo. I know that I didn’t. Live band, high volume. Our chat. [garbled speech], “what”, [more garbled speech], “what”, rinse and repeat. Guess I should have gone into close convo mode: cheek to cheek, mouth to ear, hand on waist. I usually prefer some distance from women–married man syndrome.

    Also, there was another broad chasing me heavily–was always near me, asked me to dance several times, big smiles continually. During the evening, several other uninteresting opportunities came and went. Preselection. I was dancing a lot in various places in the bar and our very cute waitress kept coming by frequently to check on me and kino me incidentally.

    Gamer Maxim: “Women want to be liked and admired by everybody, to obtain men’s attention, and to be desired by attractive men.”

  32. [genuflects] to @YaReally: you at least have one other neckbeard virginal reader out here. (keeping that fucker in tune is a beeyotch)

    Now then: methought this was to be a post/thread about the care and feeding of sprogsters and sproglets?

  33. YaReally wrote:

    If it’s not fun and interesting, usually that means the guy isn’t pushing himself and is spending the interaction trying to think of stuff to talk about that’s interesting to the girl or looking to just leech value from their interactions.

    Like Julien says “half the time I don’t even NEED the girl to be there for me to be having fun, she can just silently stand there and I’m having a blast because I’m making myself laugh by expressing myself and saying shit that *I* think is funny, I don’t care if SHE thinks it’s funny. I could be talking to a wall and be having a blast because I’m not seeking value from other people…I generate my own fun. Every night out I have a great night because I’m entertaining myself.”

    Interesting from an autistic perspective. I’m obsessed with dancing, understanding women, and understanding the mating process. Giving field reports is indulging in talking about my obsessions. Very pleasurable for me. Among autists, this is called “stimming”. When I give FRs online here or at the Chateau, I enjoy telling the story. I also enjoy telling my life stories to either men or women. I told a man one story at a club last night and got pleasure out of telling it. I think that autists may have an advantage here 1. if we are careful to include our feelings and other rich detail in the story and 2. if we are careful to use an interesting style, such as conversational style. We can get bitten if we don’t tell the story in an interesting way and be seen as obsessive and spergy.

  34. SD

    Using game in the PUA context however is like a fat girl wearing yoga pants to a red carpet premiere hoping Brad Pitt is gonna tap that.

    This is just so wrong in so many ways. If a man weren’t to use Game, then he would be like a fat girl wearing yoga pants who has bathed in weeks and doesn’t wear makeup or act feminine. SD has it totally bass-ackwards.

  35. Yeah, social time is not fun time if you’re looking for something the social scene can’t give you. Women aren’t there to fulfill all your emotional and social needs: that’s Disney-produced excrement. That’s why you need to put your mission first, that’s why you need good guy friends, that’s why you need some sense of spiritual fulfillment, you know all the normal crap a whole community provides.

    Seems that men coming to the Mansophere come from two angles: the first is the stereotypical post-divorced man served papers. The second is the guy with virtually no experience and no success with women.

    The first guys probably have an idea of what women can and cannot give, but the second set of guys have no freakin’ clue. They simply have no experience with women, know they are missing something, and are demand a whole host of shit that cannot possibly be finished. Sort of like the computer illiterate person staring at the computer and wondering why it cannot understand that goddammit I want that stupid Header aligned with the Birthday Announcement WHY DOESN’T THIS JUST WORK I HATE COMPUTERS.

    Then you have your more experienced programmers with good understanding of what computers can and cannot do. A lot of those guys just love programming. The whole Open Source Software movement comes from that.

    Guys with no women success are like the old curmedgons yelling at their computers for not understanding verbal commands.

    But that’s not entirely their fault, society fed them bad information for years and does not provide for any of their social or emotional needs, because screw them. Hell, emotionally fulfilled men aren’t even objective: you want marginal men with lots of fear and slight glimmers of hope totally dependent on capricious women that they revere. You want Men to view Women as the angry Greek gods, unknowable, subject to temper, and powerful enough to give you everything and take it all away.

  36. Seems that men coming to the Mansophere come from two angles: the first is the stereotypical post-divorced man served papers. The second is the guy with virtually no experience and no success with women.

    neither of these types are me

  37. It’s true, nobody will every by grateful fort he sacrifices you make for others. It’s a passive-aggressive postion, after all, if you remind others of what you did for them and that they owe you something therefore. Humans hate it if they “owe” something to others out of gratefulness. If you want something from others offer something in return – that’s the only way for a good deal.

    From http://freedompowerandwealth.com

  38. RE: yaReally, SD

    Taking enjoyment in socializing with women has been one of the greatest realizations of game for me. Making them giggle a bit is strangely satisfying. Simply having the mindset that you enjoy talking with them really opens them up. The neighborhood moms all light up and wave at me and smile and shit when they see me now. (I live in an oasis of sanity with lots of little kids and SAHM’s) Another strange thing is that women have started to approach me and start conversations. Which very rarely happened before.

    On the LTR game front, I’m getting really good at changing my wife’s mood. It’s a great skill because I can ruthlessly dismiss her shit tests to the point where she wants to slam the door on me, and then 10 minutes later have her sparkly eye’d telling me how lucky she is. They love that roller coaster. Fucking crazy shit. Quite honestly it’s hard not to lose a little bit of respect for them. They’re so fricking malleable. lol.

  39. Imagine the following chat between two women:

    – You should talk to men because it’s fun and interesting.
    – Really? Always?
    – It should always be.
    – But what if it isn’t?
    – Then it’s your fault.

    Seriously, who would take that smartass woman seriously?

    I have to say it has been fun to read YaReally’s comments. The way he puts all blame on men for all social interactions they find unfulfilling is hilarious and predictable at the same time. It’s comical how promoters of pick-up, run-of-the-mill social conservatives and feminists share the same mentality of gynocentrism and male disposability.

    You interacted with a woman and it wasn’t fun and interesting for you? It’s your fault, you shithead, never hers. She’s perfect. Ageing women are complaining that they aren’t getting proposed by attractive men? It’s men’s fault, of course, because they aren’t displaying proper masculinity. The economy is stagnating, the population is imploding, all sorts of deviant behaviors are spreading everywhere? Men’s fault. Porn addiction is supposedly a big social problem? Men’s fault. Female college students regret the sex acts they took part in? Men’s fault. Dead bedrooms? Men’s fault. Megachurches excusing female immorality? Men’s fault.

    It’s so predictable it’s really not even funny anymore, just boring.

  40. Yareally, as always thanks for the advice. And for schooling the haters.

    Field Report

    At a family-friendly function. The only approachable chick without a ring is an HB6-7, 25 yr old.

    She is making herself busy helping the hostess, along with about 6 other chicks.

    I walk over to the group, “You gals need any help? [long pause] ’cause I’m sure I could find someone”

    All giggles.

    Then I worked the room so to speak. I talked to men, women, played with the kids. Lots of laughs, lots of jokes. Still, no chance to open the helper chick.

    I see helper chick’s friend (HB4?) standing by herself. So I opened her instead. Sure enough, helper chick came over in a couple of minutes. I addressed both of them for a bit, and then slowly and subtly turned my body towards helper chick. Helper chick did the same. Friend excused herself within moments.

    Helper chick immediately closed the gap between us.

    Highlights from a 15 minutes conversation:

    I asked lots of questions. But it flowed well, and she liked the attention. She asked me about myself a lot, and I either gave a short answer or I joked around, then it was back to her. She liked to talk.

    Her, “I think I’m the only one here without kids” (beta bait?)

    Me, “I’ve got the midget over there surrounded by boys”

    Her, “She’s pretty…is her mom pretty?”

    Me, “Of course, do I look like the type to knock up an ugly chick?”

    Her giggling and bumping her shoulder into me, “No! That’s not what I meant!”

    Me, “Sure, I believe that”

    More giggles.

    Her, “I want kids one day, just haven’t found the right guy I guess” (holy beta baiting baby rabies!)

    Me, “I thought I wanted kids…but then I found out it’s illegal to abort them after a certain age”

    Her, “That’s horrible! You’re not nice at all!” (all giggles and an arm slap)

    Me, “You know me so well already”

    Her, “At least I know someone now. I don’t know anybody else here, so I haven’t really gone out much. I’m in bed by like 8 o’clock every night!” (for context she just moved to town)

    Me, “Oh no that’s no good. You gotta get out. If you only hang with people like this [motioning to all the fat moms and beta dads] you’ll get old fast”

    Her, “I know! I’m so boring!”

    Me, “Shit, you and I have been laughing this whole time!” (said with a tone that conveyed I disagreed with her being boring)

    Another shoulder to shoulder bump. No laughing this time. Comfort?

    And that’s when her fucking cock-blocking beta ass boss came up to us. Fuck you sir, fuck you.

    Besides being helper chick’s boss, he knows my wife well. I could literally see the slut shields come up on helper chick. She very quickly excused herself, and then left the party early.

    Fuck.

    But, I will see her again.

  41. Yeah, social time is not fun time if you’re looking for something the social scene can’t give you.

    What can it give you then?

    Women aren’t there to fulfill all your emotional and social needs: that’s Disney-produced excrement.

    What are they there for then?

    People get involved in the social scene because it’s mutually beneficial, an emotional and social benefit to all participants. That’s the whole point. That’s why it’s voluntary. If the women you’re interacting with don’t add to your emotional and social well-being, what’s in it for you, really?

  42. “You interacted with a woman and it wasn’t fun and interesting for you? It’s your fault, you shithead, never hers.”

    I think you’re missing the point. It’s not that every woman is necessarily interesting or fun. It’s that you create your own fun by saying/doing crazy shit. Self amusement. There absolutely are boring women out there though. Watch the videos.

  43. It’s great that you pointed that obvious fact out, Andy, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t miss the point. Again, YaReally’s exact words:

    If it’s not fun and interesting, usually that means the guy isn’t pushing himself and is spending the interaction trying to think of stuff to talk about that’s interesting to the girl or looking to just leech value from their interactions.

    In other words, it’s his fault. I’m sorry, but that’s pretty straight talk. The possibility that women can be boring isn’t even mentioned,

    By the way, you just have to love the kind of language he’s using. Yeah, that fucking beta bitchboy wanted to “leech value” from it! The horror! How dare he?! He wanted to get something out of that interaction! What a fucking creep!

    On a different note, let’s see a piece of Julian’s wisdom, as quoted by YaReally:

    half the time I don’t even NEED the girl to be there for me to be having fun, she can just silently stand there and I’m having a blast because I’m making myself laugh by expressing myself and saying shit that *I* think is funny, I don’t care if SHE thinks it’s funny. I could be talking to a wall and be having a blast because I’m not seeking value from other people…I generate my own fun. Every night out I have a great night because I’m entertaining myself.

    Hell, you may as well do all that in your own bedroom, don’t you? You won’t even have to get dressed and leave your flat. Right? Who needs an audience, after all? It’s all about self-amusement. Hell, you might as well become a part-time circus clown! You’ll even get paid to do that shit, man! Or become a stand-up comedian! You’ll be a minor celebrity in no time!

    It’s comical how PUAs always insist that if you decide to take their advice and do what they promote, you should always do it for yourself and nobody else, but interestingly enough, they always promote the kind of behaviors that women supposedly just happen to find arousing, desirable or beneficial to their own social life. Yeah, it must be a pure coincidence.

  44. “Hell, you may as well do all that in your own bedroom, don’t you? You won’t even have to get dressed and leave your flat. Right? Who needs an audience, after all? It’s all about self-amusement.”

    haha. Sometimes though when they are interested in your story or laughing at your jokes and they are hanging off every word it’s a good feeling. You must know what I mean. The look in their eyes. I think this happens to everyone once in a while. Even if it’s an accident.

  45. “…you should always do it for yourself and nobody else…”

    Great advice right here.

    “In other words, it’s his fault. I’m sorry, but that’s pretty straight talk. The possibility that women can be boring isn’t even mentioned,”

    Well, last i checked women were free agents that can react to a man however they want, which only gives me 50% control of the conversation. You know…my half.

    Should I shove my hand up her ass and work her mouth like a puppet?

    (I save that for the second meet usually)

  46. “– You should talk to men because it’s fun and interesting.
    – Really? Always?”

    You do not see where you moved the goalpost?

  47. HH: “Imagine the following chat between two women:
    – You should talk to men because it’s fun and interesting.
    – Really? Always?
    – It should always be.
    – But what if it isn’t?
    – Then it’s your fault.
    Seriously, who would take that smartass woman seriously?”

    Lol HH.
    Thanks for that. Now I know why I have so few female friends.
    😛

  48. It’s comical how PUAs always insist that if you decide to take their advice and do what they promote, you should always do it for yourself and nobody else, but interestingly enough, they always promote the kind of behaviors that women supposedly just happen to find arousing, desirable or beneficial to their own social life. Yeah, it must be a pure coincidence.

    It’s method actually. If it were about the women, you would put her on a pedestal and try to qualify to her. But if you do it all for yourself and don’t care for her, it’s about you, your frame, and she can join if she wants. She can’t though if you do it alone in your bedroom.

    If you want to criticize PUA, ok. But at least understand how it works first.

  49. @SD @hoellenhund2

    Put it this way: If you met me in person, you would come on here saying “YaReally is boring and uninteresting.” I’m not, but you would think I am, because when you come at me in a social interaction with the vibe you give off here I wouldn’t be bringing anything to the table for you because I would be looking for a way out of the conversation ASAP.

    This is why I say you can’t even tell how fucked up your mindsets are. Like you don’t realize how little you ACTUALLY bring to the table to people who aren’t in that same weird negative headspace as you.

    It’s not that every girl is a fascinating genius. It’s that you shouldn’t be looking for women to provide you with deep intellectual conversations anymore than I look for a dog to do my taxes. Women are good for fun feminine energy, bubbly happy emotions, and sex. If you want intellectual conversations, hang out with your male friends. Society conditioned you to expect women to bring to the table what men bring to the table in a 50/50 “women are the same as men, but with tits” equation but that’s not reality. Like do you understand that your expectation of women to provide the equivalent of what a man provides is a result of that whole feminist notion?

    You’ve been conditioned to believe that a dog can do your taxes, so when you walk around a kennel handing your tax papers to dogs and they bite the papers and pee on them, you’re like “STOOPID DOGS U NO LIVE UP 2 MY EXPECTATIONS WUT GUD R U???” Well, they’re fantastic at doing things dogs are capable of doing…you’ve just got the wrong impression of what you can expect from them.

    When you interact with your 5yo neice, do you think “THIS STOOPID CUNT ISNT PROVIDING THE SAME VALUE I AM!!! INTERACTING WITH HER IS A WASTE OF MY TIME!! PLAY HOUSE? YA RIGHT BITCH NICE TRY SUCKING ME INTO YOUR FEMININE IMPERITIVE AS YOUR SLAVEBOY DANCING MONKEY FUCK THIS TEA TIME BULLSHIT!!!”? No (I mean, you MIGHT lol), because you have a realistic expectation of what your 5yo neice can bring to the table and you don’t EXPECT her to bring much more than being a silly little girl. Do you view playing with your 5yo neice as an unbalanced value exchange and resent her and feel like a dancing monkey when you tickle-fight her? Not unless you’re fucked in the head.

    “You interacted with a woman and it wasn’t fun and interesting for you? It’s your fault, you shithead, never hers. She’s perfect. Ageing women are complaining that they aren’t getting proposed by attractive men? It’s men’s fault, of course, because they aren’t displaying proper masculinity. The economy is stagnating, the population is imploding, all sorts of deviant behaviors are spreading everywhere? Men’s fault. Porn addiction is supposedly a big social problem? Men’s fault. Female college students regret the sex acts they took part in? Men’s fault. Dead bedrooms? Men’s fault. Megachurches excusing female immorality? Men’s fault.”

    https://images.rapgenius.com/91fd1692f61dc246f35d92d64f056a8b.550x280x1.jpg

    Problems aren’t all men’s fault, but a lot of them can be fixed or prevented by men’s actions and by men having a realstic understanding of female psychology.

    Deadbedrooms are generally the result of the guy letting himself go or not understanding Hypergamy. That’s why stuff like MMSL or dread game Red Pill shit can often start fixing up those Deadbedrooms…the woman hasn’t changed, the man has changed his understanding of his wife/GF and has changed his actions as a result. If you want to interpret that in a negative “YAREALLY SAYS DEADBEDROOMS ARE MENS FAULT” way, you can, but it’s just logic.

    Regret rape is generally the result of the guy not understanding game and learning to avoid, prevent or diffuse Buyer’s Remorse. If you understand how a girl’s ASD and Buyer’s Remorse works, and read the PUA literature on how to avoid/diffuse them and make her feel like a special snowflake, she doesn’t feel slutty about what happened and doesn’t regret the night and pull out the “I have bad feels about that night so he raped me” card. Again you can interpret that as “YAREALLY SAYS REGRET RAPE IS MEN’S FAULT HE’S ANTI-MEN HE MUST BE SOME FEMINIST PUAS ARE ALL FEMINIST WHITE KNIGHTS!!!!”, but the reality is show me a guy who gets a regret rape accusation and I’ll show you a guy who didn’t properly diffuse Buyer’s Remorse.

    No idea on the other shit lol you threw a lot of wild strawman around there.

  50. The problem is that men let the values of FI to be the norm. If men stood togehther, women would have no options but to embrace male values and live with it. Women as ultimate survivors will do anything which helps them survive. It is ultimately up to us to decide the fate of civilisation. This is our responsibility – to define and bring values to society.

    Masculine dominance etc…….is just one part of the equation. It can be found in animal kingdom, the biggest lion takes it all. FI to the core.

    We should keep also to our values of truth, justice, meaning. WE shall introduce and REWARD them! Theese are the values that will ultimately keep women in check when insisted upon with perservance and strenght. Theese are the values that will improve society. We do not need only “dominant” males…we need scientifists, IT specialists, artists, men that are willing to sacrify for the greater good. Yes we desperately need even those men, without them, the civilisation will fall. They might be not the most dominant males in their marriages but we do need them to be respected for the values they bring to the society. I think that Plato, Socrates and Aristotle will be ridiculed in today´s society.

    Religion performed this role very well. Now we need something else to unite the men and give them bigger meaning then just – well performing, dominant sex robot and warrior.

    We need men to respect each other, to refuse fucking the wife, girlfriend of other fellow, to shame sluts, to have INTEGRITY together with dominance. We are not just animals. When we start behave like animals, women have the upper hand, my friends. FI wants us to behave like animals – well trained robots serving the FI set of values. We shall introduce our values, respect them, reward them and keep to them! It is meta shit test here…whose values will be dominant. And we are loosing my friends.

  51. “I think that Plato, Socrates and Aristotle will be ridiculed in today´s society.”

    They have been ridiculed for a century. It’s the foundation of post-modern philosophy. We have “progressed” to ridiculing maths and physics.

    The speed of light was accorded privileged status by a dead, white cisgendered shitlord.

  52. @gregg

    Good. Inter-male competition hurts society in the long run. As you point out, men who are productive and important – but not apex-dominant – will only continue helping society if they receive some degree of respect and honor from apex-dominant men. That includes the mutual enforcement of their rights, whatever they may be, with women.

    Women are setting the frame currently. That means the dynamics at work are covert – put of a facade of (relative) chastity, claim to be aroused by BB, screw the hot guy who ‘just gets it’ on the side, lie with a poker face about it. I don’t even really have a problem with that in a way – if it were just not lied about.

    If you let women set the frame, you’ll get a covert strategy every time.

    Of course, there’s massive coordination problems to re-setting the paradigm. I’m not holding my breath lol. If you keep your own eyes open, the current circumstance can actually be pretty good in some ways. So I’ll live in the now, and open as many other eyes as I can. That’s the best we can do for now.

    1. @Forge the sky
      “Women are setting the frame currently. That means the dynamics at work are covert – put of a facade of (relative) chastity, claim to be aroused by BB, screw the hot guy who ‘just gets it’ on the side, lie with a poker face about it. I don’t even really have a problem with that in a way – if it were just not lied about.”

      Man if I grew up with that being open I would have not of. Experienced much expressed but useless violence.
      Wanna send you a beverage over your screen for pointing that out.

  53. @SJF

    “Hoellenhund2: “I’m drowning here, and you’re describing the water!””

    Hah, I was gonna try and explicate the dynamic here, and you nail it in under ten words.

    I dont’ disagree with Hollenhund that male-blaming is an issue. But he has a serious stick up his ass about it. At some point action has to supplant complaint.

    YaReally is describing the water. Hollenhund is drowning in it. I’m drinking it. It’s just water, it can do either.

  54. @CaveClown

    Good set, man. You and dwellerman both seem to have run into the same issue – when you get a cute girl talking, laughing, being feminine, maybe throwing off a few IOI’s – it looks like an oasis in a desert to any beta schlub that’s not used to seeing that. They’re drawn like moths to the flame. “Finally, a girl that acts attractive and flirty! This is my chance!” Like, they don’t get that it’s not the girl, it’s the guy that brings it out in her. Heck, in my BP days I did that shit myself a few times :/

    Might be good to brainstorm ways to deal with that kinda circumstance.

  55. Forge,

    Thanks. I did well I think. I was in a good flow state. No AA at all.

    Problem with the schlub that came over is that I know him well too. Such a friendly guy he is! I wanted to punch him in the face.

  56. Now that I think about it, since he knows my wife it might have been on purpose.

    He’s assumed a low orbit around her.

    Now I really am gonna punch him in his stupid face.

  57. Honestly I understand where Hoellenhund is coming from. It’s very galling to have men place fault a guy for things he knows are out of his control. I fully understand the angst and frustration that leads to things like Beta Uprising and AFCs taking it out on the whole of society before they swallow a bullet themselves.

    It essentially amounts to victim blaming; Betas are hapless and hopeless mules brainwashed and indentured to serve not just the Feminine Imperative (which would be galling enough), but also to have their pains and strivings that society demands be rewarded with women’s genuine interests focusing on Alpha men.

    That sucks. PUAs telling a guy it’s on him as to why women are boring or uninterested in him sexually only reinforces that angst. It’s like a pastor telling you that if you’d only pray harder or more honestly God would have cured your Mom of cancer. So they hate the Alpha, they hate the PUA, they hate the hotchickswithdouchebags guy, but they also hate women and the social/biological mechanics of the position they’re placed in.

    But these guys are Red Pill aware. They see the truth and that leads to their awakening to the cruel reality that they’re in. So when these guys are put into that place they have a few choices: Snap and take out themselves and as many others as they can, go isolationist MGTOW and retreat to minimal societal investment, go MRA and impotently try to enact legislation that they think will even the social playing filed, or they can take a realistic look at themselves and reinvent themselves to better play the Game.

    Whether it’s fair or not, by virtue of being a man, you’re going to have to accept your burden of performance. That burden includes your liability of accepting fault even for things that aren’t your fault per se.

    Is that fucked up? Yes. So with that in mind it is up to you as a Red Pill aware Man to decide for yourself what is worth your investment. Yes my friend, women can be fucked up and stupid and absolutely not worth your time, money and effort. It isn’t your fault they are the way they are, but it is your fault for investing yourself in something you’re not enjoying or profiting by.

    With all of the railing against women not being worthwhile one would think that would prompt these men to being indifferent to women – but they aren’t. Even the most ardent MGTOW still wants women, he simply wants her in his context and his frame on his terms – and to genuinely want to be a part of all that. There’s nothing wrong wit this desire, but the disconnect comes in how men go about establishing a Frame women want to be a part of.

    I may debate with YaReally’s take on how the importance of looks plays in to a man’s overall Game and appeal, but one thing I won’t argue with is his take on the importance of men putting themselves out there and into situations that will most certainly take them out of their comfort zones.

    For almost 20 years I have made a living on doing exactly this. I have worked in gaming, liquor and brand development ventures that have put me into venues that range from Goth/Alternative/Hipster sets to LGBT events, to mixing with men and women who have the type of wealth that most people don’t even know exists. My career, family and personal life has been my Red Pill classroom for all this, and in all of these contexts I have found a way to enjoy myself and/or learn from these interactions.

    One reason I will never look to writing Red Pill books as a career option is because it would remove me from the very source of my observations. Living it is the only way keep learning from it. On my own time, I would very likely prefer to lock myself in my studio and paint or sculpt, to the exclusion of my wife and family and the many friends I have. I’m a very social guy, but I would probably not head off to a night club or any of the events I involve myself in professionally.

    When I’m doing a promo, I know I’m not going to hook up, so I find enjoyment in watching and learning from what I see going on around me. I can’t drink when I’m on a promo or doing a trade show, so even that can’t be a source enjoyment. So why fucking do it right? I make money at it, and it beats living in a cubicle, but I’d much rather be creating new things, new brands, new ideas than interacting with half-buzzed hipsters who think they’re too cool to be there or obnoxious 40 something divorcés ‘sampling’ vodka and hoping to drink their spinsterhood away.

    I enjoy what I do and it helps me help other guys. I put myself out in the wild because it’s part of my job(s), but I honestly enjoy interacting with even the dullards and the drunks. It’s what I invest myself in. That may sound like torture to you, but it’s really contextual. I have friends I’ve made at underground Goth events who would blanch at the thought of what I do at a golf tournament. I’m not saying you need to be a social chameleon, but understand that your social education will always be domain dependent if you stay in the settings that make you the most comfortable.

  58. @hoellenhund2

    Imagine the following chat between two women:
    – You should talk to men because it’s fun and interesting.
    – Really? Always?
    – It should always be.
    – But what if it isn’t?
    – Then it’s your fault.
    Seriously, who would take that smartass woman seriously?
    I have to say it has been fun to read YaReally’s comments. The way he puts all blame on men for all social interactions they find unfulfilling is hilarious and predictable at the same time…

    While I give you credit for an amusing internet comment, you’re committing a logical fallacy in attacking YaReally’s comments on this. Most of the time, on this board, YaReally is speaking to introverts. In fact, the biggest demographic that makes use of PUA material online are male introverts. These are men who stick to themselves, burned and/or conditioned to keep to themselves to the point that they now self-condition themselves into isolation. Most of the time, introverts disqualify a conversation with someone before it has ever begun. Worse, when they make attempts to be social, and find failure, they’ll often blame everything but themselves. YaReally’s comments (and other PUA writing), while they certainly fit the contradiction you’re pointing out, are not so simple as to excuse women for being boring. Rather, they’re directed at a male population so beaten down by a fem-centric world with no sympathy for less-socially-developed males that root canals are easier than simple eye-contact and interaction-leading. Worse, these same men have self-convinced that every tiny failure is worth quitting over.

    But, go ahead, continue finding fault with PUAs without first considering their very human, and hence flawed audience.

    1. @Rollo Tommasi
      “but they also hate women and the social/biological mechanics of the position they’re placed in.”
      https://public.rcas.org/hs/rchs/calendars/homework/Lists/Andrea%20BartonWarren/Attachments/357/columbine-studyguide.pdf

      “Whether it’s fair or not, by virtue of being a man, you’re going to have to accept your burden of performance.”
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C1PYRNXiywE
      “but it is your fault for investing yourself in something you’re not enjoying or profiting by.”

      “Even the most ardent MGTOW still wants women, he simply wants her in his context and his frame on his terms – and to genuinely want to be a part of all that.”

      Holy hell that’s the blue pill me. Now I see what I must do to grow for the better.

      “putting themselves out there and into situations that will most certainly take them out of their comfort zones.”

      Growth

      “One reason I will never look to writing Red Pill books as a career option is because it would remove me from the very source of my observations.”

      It’s was calmed me down while reading you explaining all the things I couldn’t speak about in public.

      “but understand that your social education will always be domain dependent if you stay in the settings that make you the most comfortable.”

      Well than I’m socially retarded.

      @Jeremy
      Improv and going places I haven’t been before help me get over that stuff.
      I know a guy who is 40 who can connect and relate to ever human demographic imaginable. He can be with feminist and manly men dancers to raging hipsters and anarchist. He’s interesting to observe but he’s got a few more experiences in the real world than I do and he knows that’s beyond advantages and comparison but what is interesting to talk with him about is how tiring the burden of performance can be without play.

  59. “I enjoy what I do and it helps me help other guys. I put myself out in the wild because it’s part of my job(s), but I honestly enjoy interacting with even the dullards and the drunks.”

    @Rollo
    Do you have any posts that cover that? Not that you are/were an awkward introvert, but is there anyone outside of the pickup community saying “Hey guys social interactions can be rewarding even for awkward introverts.”

  60. To continue this subject…

    Think of modern male introverts like you would a fat girl who has never in her life lifted weights. If you’ve never seen a fat girl in a gym on her first day, trying to reclaim her looks, you’ve missed out on a key viewpoint in the human experience. Fat girls are fat because they choose to be. Society tries to convince them it’s not their fault, but society is a great hot tub of lies. They may not realize they’re choosing to be fat, but they are. When you see these women finally “decide” to lose the weight, they show up at a gym and they have absolutely no clue what they’re doing. They’re actually in danger of injuring themselves without help because the people in the gym who really know what they’re doing (often the more muscled men in the crowd), have options and won’t give them the time of day. This often leads to rather amusing misuse of equipment, loud complaints over the slightest of exertions, and humorous tantrums over how hard it is to be active. Usually, within a week, the fat girl finds some way to claim an internal moral victory for having followed through for a whole week, and never shows up again. She remains overweight and not as attractive as she could be.

    This is not at all unlike the average introverted internet beta. He knows he’s socially underdeveloped, he knows at some level he should be out interacting with people, but he self-convinces that his life isn’t terrifically boring and stale. Ironically, society actually does try to convince these guys that they’re outcasts, but this has little effect save to push these guys into further isolation. When you see these guys at the clubs, they’re standing at the bar by themselves, admiring some detail on the alcohol shelves that they manage to find worth spinning their brain cycles on. They have no clue how to make eye-contact and introduce themselves. They’re actually in danger of embarrassing themselves terribly without help in many cases, and the people in the bar to whom all of this comes easy… avoid them like the plague because it just makes their interaction harder. This often leads to drinks in faces, all-caps tweets about how shitty women are, and humorous tantrums over how unfair life is. Usually, within a few attempts to go out, a new console game will come out that will keep their attention firmly fixed on what adventures their digitized apartment can bring them. This beta remains underdeveloped socially and suffers from a lack of life options as a result.

    Now… What exactly is the cure for both of these poor souls? Do these people really need to continue blaming the world for their troubles? Do they need anyone to be telling them that it’s their body’s fault for getting fat, or the worlds fault for not fawning over his boring beta self? I would argue exactly the opposite. While it’s true that that fat girl probably doesn’t have the muscle mass to burn off enough calories per day to get skinny, and the beta dude will run into egotistical boring cunts in his experiences… this says nothing of the value of their respective exercises to them as people. In fact, these people need to have their exact failures reinforced clearly in their heads so they do not default to blaming the world for their condition.

    1. @Jeremy
      “blaming the world for their condition.”

      Men take responsibility for are Actions.

      I wouldn’t blame anyone for anything I’ve done or have experienced. But overall without the guidance of someone at Rollo Tommassi’s caliber I would have given up on myself awhile ago.

      Being uncomfortable is what makes life interesting in engaging new ways of handling what it Is as opposed to what you Want it to be.

      At 27 I’m heavily socially retarded.

      Going to a new dance this evening

  61. The fat girl = beta man comparison looks good at first glance. But the fat girl is encouraged to blame society for her condition, where as an introverted socially unskilled man is not.

    The fat girl will be encouraged if she decides to lose weight. The fat girl will be told that we should all accept her for “who she is” if she decides to not lose weight.

    Her sexual options are lesser than a hotter chick, but she still has options.

    The socially unskilled beta does not really have sexual options. A few “right place right time” circumstances, or prostitution.

    So I agree with what you said, but I’ve got to point out that women do NOT have the same level of burden as men, even in that example.

  62. Ever hear the “fat chicks give good head” trope?

    Ever hear anything like that attempting to boost the sex appeal of introverted men?

  63. @Rugby

    I know a guy who is 40 who can connect and relate to ever human demographic imaginable.

    That’s cool. I’ve had friends like that, and yep, they’re worth simply watching up close. Most of them are married/moved at this point.

    I’ve also had “moments” where I forced myself to make lots of eye-contact and lead interactions for hours at a time at a gathering. Unfortunately since I was also conditioned to self-restrict-sexually a lot of the positive social success that I had in that area when I was younger was simply stopped cold by implanted dogma. In effect, I was trained not to “close”, and this led me to train myself to simply avoid those situations.

    1. @Jeremy
      “Unfortunately since I was also conditioned to self-restrict-sexually a lot of the positive social success that I had in that area when I was younger was simply stopped cold by implanted dogma. In effect, I was trained not to “close”, and this led me to train myself to simply avoid those situations.”

      Me to I’ve found myself changing slowly. Very slowly and it’s amazing to see yet it’s also dangerous.

      Slipping bam into a bluepill mindset isn’t that difficult. Playing rugby is what I use as my checks and balances. It’s what I use to express brute violence and connect with other men with.

      Sex to me is a part of an equation that involves getting to know others. I still do a piss poor job at being ok with that part of myself.

  64. @CaveClown

    So I agree with what you said, but I’ve got to point out that women do NOT have the same level of burden as men, even in that example.

    I wasn’t trying to say that. I was actually just trying to illustrate that you can’t cure a fat girl by letting her tell herself that she’s fat because of “other people”. Rather, you have to reinforce in her head that she’s actually fat because she fails to show an ounce of drive when working to get what she wants becomes difficult. The same works for introverted beta males. You can’t let them keep telling themselves that, “That woman is just a cunt, that’s why she won’t go home with me,” because frankly it’s just not true. The interaction is two-way, and YaReally and other PUAs are (imho) correct to continue to focus on the interaction failures of the beta rather than the nature of women in helping men get what they want out of life.

  65. @jeremy

    I knew what you meant, that’s why I agreed with you. Just pointing out that the fat chick receives external validation no matter what route she chooses. Beta does not.

    Men have to find that self mental point of origin and internal validation. Seeking external validation of anything just leads to a life of misery.

    Female friend of mine is a good 350lbs. She has 3 fuck buddies.

  66. “Me to I’ve found myself changing slowly. Very slowly and it’s amazing to see yet it’s also dangerous.”

    Socially I’m changing really fast. It’s kind of crazy. For me it was just coming from a place where there’s a chance I might have an interesting conversation with this person. I have spent most of my life feeling like I’m surrounded by idiots. I still get that feeling a lot. But there are interesting people out there and you can’t tell by looking at them.

  67. “Hey, you’re a really big, fat chick. I’ll bet you give great head!”
    Is that really validating?

    Seems kind of along the lines of, “Hey, you must not get sex very often, dude. Since you’re so pent up you must have a really manly sized load in that scrotum.”

  68. @Liz

    Is that really validating?

    Dirty water often looks like the worst you could possibly get to someone who has never been stuck in the desert with no water.

  69. @CaveClown

    the fat chick receives external validation no matter what route she chooses. Beta does not.

    Right, and it’s actually destructive to both men and women that modern-life works this way.

    Female friend of mine is a good 350lbs. She has 3 fuck buddies.

    Gross.. looks like I’m saving money on lunch today.

  70. In their defense, the only fat chick I’ve ever been with (damn you budweiser!) gave really good head. lol

  71. The only fat chick, she wasn’t even so much fat as she was thick, that I ever fucked, her line to me once in bed was, “You can do anything you want to me!”. For good measure she was my boss and I heard that if I banged her, she would stop sexually harassing me.

    So I fucked the shit out of her as dirty as I could and sure enough she left me alone after that. Also, true to her word, there was no ASD or dirty threshold to be broken. Had I not been so drunk I would have pushed it further, I could have called some buddies into the room to help and she would have gone for it.

    She didn’t give great head so much as she gave what she probably thought was good head as she was wildly enthusiastic about it. So I’ll give her credit for trying hard.

  72. @rugby,

    Heh, I just remembered this one time, I swear this is probably the most in-the-moment confusing and humiliating beta experience of my life. Though I laugh at it now for the inhumanly bizarre thinking in my head at the time… if I had any PUA friends back then they would have never let me live it down.

    I was in college. A group of casual dance friends of mine wanted to go out to dinner. We also went dancing afterwards. This turned out to be a fairly pleasant evening, and this HB 5-6 blonde girl and I split off at one point and ended up back at her apartment. She was nice, and we had had very friendly conversation to that point. I don’t recall being especially flirty, but I was, for better or worse, trying to act the man during the evening. Anyway, she brought me into her apartment and bedroom without any real prompting from me. It was a clear invitation. I mean, I had green lights flashing all around me. She even excused herself to the bathroom while I was sitting on her bed. When she came out, I politely excused myself and walked out. She didn’t come out of the bathroom naked, but she was clearly expecting me to do something. We never even kissed. I don’t remember how old I was at the time, but I was so well trained not to lead the interaction, so conditioned not to try to push things, that I literally walked out of a girls apartment from her bed without so much as kissing her goodnight.

    I’m sure that girl was just as baffled as I was mentally confused. In retrospect I hope I didn’t make her feel too badly about herself, but I was just acting on programming that was non-human and all FI influenced.

    I wish I had a video of the entire evening, right up until I got in my truck. I’d use it whenever some feminist tried to convince me that men must be trained not to rape.

  73. @SD @hoellenhund2

    I feel bad for making that comment earlier. As far as I’m concerned we’re on the same team talking guy to guy here. I care about your frustrations. ….And I have other forums I can be a judgmental asshole on. So I will offer a personal take on game and PUA to help you see a small point of why you should listen to other guys takes on the matter.

    Rollo: “……or they can take a realistic look at themselves and reinvent themselves to better play the Game.”

    A couple years ago I embarked on a pursuit/passion to have better control over my own circumstances and control the direction of my life in regards to my intersexual relationship (s) (primarily marriage, but IMHO game concepts are fungible for ONS’s, STR’s, and LTR’s) . It came out of my sudden inspiration after seeing a couple friends and good acquaintences have some unfortunate experiences (wives walking/running away from them).

    So I found red pill awareness and honed my Game. I got better. It worked. I changed a bunch in my own head.

    And guess what? Nothing changed in my world outside of me. My wife is still the same, my social circle and friends are still the same, my employees and my so called (clients) are the same. I changed. I became better with fewer weaknesses/deficits and vices. I’m more effective. I feel better. I can control my outcomes better, much better.

    Pua’s employ game for inter-sexual relationships. But Game is a whole big world of of influencing others beyond that ( Game also affects my job, my employees, my platonic relationships, relationships with other men). And pickup artistry is but a small part of that.

    Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better.

  74. If you want to criticize PUA, ok. But at least understand how it works first.

    You know, I’m not exactly a fan of Roosh, but at least he gives a clear assessment of pick-up. He observed that Western women typically view their (potential) male companions as circus clowns, optional life accessories for amusement. In another article, he called Game an “obligatory pursuit” for men. Those were his exact words. Again, that’s straight talk, no bullshit.

  75. It’s not that every girl is a fascinating genius. It’s that you shouldn’t be looking for women to provide you with deep intellectual conversations

    If that’s what you took away from my comments, you clearly weren’t paying any attention.

    Women are good for fun feminine energy, bubbly happy emotions, and sex.

    Many women can be good for them, for certain men.

  76. @hoellenhund2

    He observed that Western women typically view their (potential) male companions as circus clowns, optional life accessories for amusement. In another article, he called Game an “obligatory pursuit” for men. Those were his exact words. Again, that’s straight talk, no bullshit.

    Actually, I directly challenge that assessment of Roosh’s words. The words I’ve ready from Roosh to that end were his assessment of *himself*… he felt that he was the clown, and felt forced into that role in order to game western women. He was not, to any of my recollection, referring to the women’s assessment of him. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever read Roosh attempt to speak for the female assessment of anything. Unless you’ve got a direct quote, I call BS.

  77. He observed that Western women typically view their (potential) male companions as circus clowns, optional life accessories for amusement

    yet 50 Shades had no circus clown, they wanted the ring leader. In the trillion of romance “novels” the male is never a circus clown type or even an accountant. It’s like evopsych is right

  78. If you want to interpret that in a negative “YAREALLY SAYS DEADBEDROOMS ARE MENS FAULT” way, you can, but it’s just logic.

    The reason I’m interpreting it that way isn’t that I’m predisposed to interpreting that in a negative way, I’m interpreting it that way because that’s exactly what you said. Again, your words:

    Deadbedrooms are generally the result of the guy letting himself go or not understanding Hypergamy. That’s why stuff like MMSL or dread game Red Pill shit can often start fixing up those Deadbedrooms…the woman hasn’t changed, the man has changed his understanding of his wife/GF and has changed his actions as a result.

    Really, why can’t you simply bring yourself to say “dead bedrooms are men’s fault”? That’s exactly what you meant, and it even takes much fewer words to say it.

    Regret rape is generally the result of the guy not understanding game and learning to avoid, prevent or diffuse Buyer’s Remorse. If you understand how a girl’s ASD and Buyer’s Remorse works, and read the PUA literature on how to avoid/diffuse them and make her feel like a special snowflake, she doesn’t feel slutty about what happened and doesn’t regret the night and pull out the “I have bad feels about that night so he raped me” card.

    In other words, it’s men’s fault. Simple as that. That’s what you meant. Again, why not simply say it? At least it’d make it obvious to everyone that you’re on the same side as feminists and tradcons,

    the reality is show me a guy who gets a regret rape accusation and I’ll show you a guy who didn’t properly diffuse Buyer’s Remorse.

    And I’ll show you a fucking cunt who should be thrown in jail, whose company no man should’ve sought in the first place.

    If you’re attempting here to promote PUA here, I can tell you for sure that you’re doing a very crappy job.

    1. @Jeremy
      “I wish I had a video of the entire evening, right up until I got in my truck. I’d use it whenever some feminist tried to convince me that men must be trained not to rape.”


      It’s not bit we both know that now. Making sure she says she’s into it before you start helps avoid being called rape. (If she ever moans NO even once it counts as rape after that)

      Here’s a funny story. Inspired by your read. When I was a lifeguard I would accommodate the needs of the patrons coming to the pool. One time a men wanted music so I brought in the gym speaker to play Mozart and Beethoven because that’s what I rock to at times to keep me awake and alert. May be weird to some but Mozart has a many great jams to swim. 2 miles with especially when working with pool neuropathology this client had a phd and was always noticing me read when I was done setting up the pool and no one was their I would read and blast Mozart to 12 decimals on heavy speakers.

      One day a hb10 walked in and handed me her keys. She swam and got up and looked at me while I was mopping and cleaning the pool. She slowly pulled her body out of the pool in an evil bond movie I’m a sexy villain sort of way. She wasn’t mean and she was waiting for me to….

      So yeah I blanked and she smiled in intense disappointment and confusion.
      I hand her the keys and she walks away disappointed grin an her face and I never see her again.

      Blue pill and ignorant of the fact that it’s ok to have sex. There a funny thing I should add. The alpha bad boy who I worked with came in one day an asked if I would do sown thing. Two to three men took it upon the selfs to have sex in the nude in the gym sauna. He wanted me to go in and stop it. I looked at him and said something along the lines of “Brother I am working here would you mind doing it for me?” Don’t wanna leave my post until my time ends.

      So off alpha bad boy goes. 10 20 mins pass and when he comes back he’s Ref in the face deep red funny red embarrassed red. “Damn it dude it took me three try’s to get then to get off of each other and outta their.”

      (I smile politely and ask if theirs anything else I can do.)

      He shrugs and says no.

      I realize at some point I am the only one who can feel the moment aid my life I froze from the in progress of my humanity. The pool story could be my version to you an in anti rape PDA campaign.

      I have never meant another human who grow up hating himself more than I have. Steven golds book Jumper goes over a lot of that self hating and in part the social damage you grow up dealing with.

  79. @hoellenhund2

    “You know, I’m not exactly a fan of Roosh, but at least he gives a clear assessment of pick-up. He observed that Western women typically view their (potential) male companions as circus clowns, optional life accessories for amusement. In another article, he called Game an “obligatory pursuit” for men. Those were his exact words. Again, that’s straight talk, no bullshit.”

    I read the post by Roosh that you refer to. At first I agreed with his point, but then I remembered that it doesn’t truly matter how someone views you initially. You have the means to shape that viewpoint either positively of negatively.

    I’m no one’s dancing monkey or circus clown, but if I start speaking to a woman and get that vibe, like I’m being taken as something I’m not, I am confident that a few paragraphs into conversation, she will not see anything clownish or monkey-like about me. Unless of course, she is some kind of crazy asshole, in which case there’s no harm, no foul.

    I also disagree that game is an “obligatory pursuit” for men. At least this is not the case once ” game ” has been internalized. If a guy has trouble even approaching a woman, whether she is a 5 or a 10, then any mechanism he can use to get past his inhibition will serve him well once internalized. That internalization is no longer ” game ” per se, but it’s become a part of who he is now, without that particular defeating inhibition.

    From my experience what Rollo was saying is unvarnished truth as far as interacting with many different types of people socially. It is good for you and unless you wander into a Pagan MC club meeting, or a Blood’s initiation ceremony, no harm can come of it.

    It is never THAT important what anyone thinks of you at first blush. Burden of performance man… If you don’t care, that’s cool. If you think a person has you all wrong ( dancing clown..) , then you are capable of modifying that dynamic. If nothing else it makes life fuller and more interesting.

    And it is also true, as much as you might disagree, that it is a man’s fault if he just wishes that conditions were different without even making a small attempt to change even his own conditions by any means necessary.

  80. @hollenhund2
    if you replace “fault” with “ignorance” in the above paragraph you just wrote, it might make a lot more sense.

    It might me a man’s “fault” if he knows something will work, but then chooses a course of action that is other that the one known to work.

    Ignorance is not a defence in law, but it’s a reasonable moral defence in a situation where someone genuinely does not know what the right thing is to do.

  81. Holehound,
    Everybody here’s been more than understanding of yours and SD’s negativity, but it’s really just getting boring so piss up a rope. Your parsing and quibbling with YaReally’s efforts on our (meaning yours too) behalf isn’t winning you any respect. Yah everybody knows you’re a sophisticated nihilist, but how far will that take you? Take a break, walk outside, fart there and come back when you get it out of your system.

  82. @Forge the Sky
    “men who are productive and important – but not apex-dominant – will only continue helping society if they receive some degree of respect and honor from apex-dominant men”

    FWIW I make an effort to let those guys know I appreciate the shit they do (I’ve hung in blue collar, nerd, etc social circles). And I’ve hung in crowds who look down on blue-collar guys or nerds etc and it’s like do you guys even understand how much you sitting in this bar with your overpriced drink checking your texts on your smartphone is only happening because of the work those guys thanklessly do that no one gives a shit about?

    The day those guys all go MGTOW or swallow enough Red Pill to just work to support themselves and reject society’s requests for their skills is the day society starts a downward spiral into a nightmare lol

    “put of a facade of (relative) chastity, claim to be aroused by BB, screw the hot guy who ‘just gets it’ on the side, lie with a poker face about it. I don’t even really have a problem with that in a way – if it were just not lied about.”

    Here’s the thing. And this is hard for guys to grasp especially with the hostile “YAREALLY SAYS EVERYTHING IS MEN’S FAULT” thing going on in this thread. Them lying actually…IS men’s fault. lol Drop in on a pre/post bar conversation between super close girlfriends and you’ll often hear the most blatantly sexual red pill honest shit in your life. With their BFFs they don’t say “oh I’m just going to dinner with this guy I met, I’m sure nothing will happen”, they’re saying “I need to get fucked, my hubby just doesn’t do it” “I know babe don’t worry about it getting a sugar daddy on the side was the best thing I ever did for my marriage you go grrrl”. Like, they’ll often drop the whole “lying about it” thing with their super close girlfriends.

    So how is their covert lying men’s fault? Well if we accept that to their BFFs they’ll be blatantly red pill honest, then we have to accept that they’re not INCAPABLE of being honest, it’s just that with their BFF cirumstances are such that they’re more likely to be honest than they are with other people or men. So what’s the difference between their BFF and a guy they’re on a date with or their co-worker? They *KNOW* their BFF won’t judge them for what they say/do. They know their BFF will accept them and even if she disagrees with them she won’t think less of her as a human being for it. Her NON-close GFs might but her BFF won’t. That’s why you’ll often find 2-sets of married chicks out on the prowl, they both want to get fucked and both will keep eachother’s secrets that night…but if you add a female co-worker in there or replace one of the married women with her, suddenly they won’t go home with a guy because now there’s someone who may or may not (and they have to err on the side of caution and assume they WILL) judge them.

    So the reason women lie about this shit is because they know the guy they’re on a date with or their co-workers etc etc will judge them if they’re honest. Because 99% of people WILL judge them. But if you can remove that judgement, they’ll open up to you like they do with their BFFs. That’s a big part of why they tell me all sorts of fucked up shit that they won’t tell their general friends or family, because they know I won’t judge them. It’s survival for her to be covert because if she gets judged she’ll miss out on or sabotage opportunities to achieve her biological goals.

    So in THEORY, if men could just be non-judgemental (or at least hold a poker face and give the illusion of it, like I often do lol), women would be more honest.

    Note how society/media is promoting the whole AF/BB and Hypergamy and Cuckold thing more and more…it’s because the FI has enough control over society that women in general don’t feel as judged and can start being more open and blatant about that stuff. Women still cheated in the “good ol’ days” but society had severely harsh judgemental punishments for it so they were way more covert about it when it happened. Now all punishments have been removed, and men have been feminized and neutered enough that women are flaunting it in everyone’s face more.

    “I dont’ disagree with Hollenhund that male-blaming is an issue.”

    Me neither. I’m actually big into MRA shit and have been for years. I know exactly what he’s saying, I see it all the time not just in MRA circles but in guys learning pickup.

    But the reality is if your dog is out biting people it’s because you are a shitty trainer. I’m sorry if that’s hard to hear, and yes your dog might just be an asshole, but there’s a very clear observable pattern dogs with informed owners who train them properly are biting the faces off less children at the park than dogs with owners who have no idea wtf they’re doing.

    The error is believing the dog should train itself. Why WOULD it? Nothing in society incentivizes it to.

    “when you get a cute girl talking, laughing, being feminine, maybe throwing off a few IOI’s – it looks like an oasis in a desert to any beta schlub that’s not used to seeing that”

    Ya, this is usually why AMOGs come in on me. They think “well I’m better than HIM, and if she’s that receptive to HIM then she’ll LOVE ME! Plus she’s probably a slut if she’s that friendly that quickly so that’ll be easy to get her!” It’s retarded lol

    Tyler makes a funny point: “People say learning game is creepy. No, you know what’s creepy? NOT learning game. Why? Because guys who say “don’t learn game, it’s creepy” aren’t going to just NOT talk to girls…they’re still going to go try to talk to girls, but they’re going to do it in this fucked up creepy uncalibrated lame way.”

    @Rollo
    “It essentially amounts to victim blaming; Betas are hapless and hopeless mules brainwashed and indentured”

    I agree completely, that’s why I try to always stress that it’s not their FAULT they have the wrong expectations of women. It’s socially conditioned into them from birth. They’re just a leaf blowing in the wind and end up caught in a spiderweb before they find the Red Pill.

    BUT, there are two guys that make posts like hollenhund: guys who are just frustrated and confused and are looking for answers/help. Those guys can be taken under your wing and helped. But the other guys are the type who have already decided they know how the world works and shut their mind off to everything and that’s why they reject infield footage as a global conspiracy of paid models in every video and make excuses for stuff they can’t explain and brush over points when I say “ok explain how the MISC Forever Aloners exist” etc, because it doesn’t fit their narrative they’ve constructed (or picked up from a negative community) and they reject it all. You can see that happening in this very thread.

    They ENJOY the negative world-view they have, that’s why they don’t try to fix it. They love it, the same way a group of goth kids will all feed off eachother’s negativity about how shitty life is. Their brain wants more of what it’s used to.

    “That sucks. PUAs telling a guy it’s on him as to why women are boring or uninterested in him sexually only reinforces that angst.”

    I agree entirely, and we KNOW that…BUT, we put it that way for two reasons:

    1) guys need to hear it. Tough love. Sorry it sucks to hear, I get it, but if you want someone to just lie to you and tell you the special unicorn girl is out there for you you can talk to your mom lol If you want solutions, here they are. Regret rape is from not managing Buyer’s Remorse. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can prevent it. It doesn’t matter how much you piss & moan about how unfair it is that you should have to understand how to manage Buyer’s Remorse, I feel for ya, it sucks that the world can’t just be wonderful and perfect and special, but welcome to reality. Learn this shit and you’ll be fine, reject it and take your chances. After you finish with all your crying and whining and blaming the world around you it’s all going to come down to a binary: accept this and learn to handle it, or reject it and go MGTOW (or killing spree lol)

    2) in an ideal situation where you have someone actually mentoring you (VS me shouting at people on a public forum), they can help that guy understand that the fact that his actions can alter chick’s behavior is actually a GOOD THING. Because it means he’s not a piece of shit, he was just taking the wrong actions. And it means he can take control and fix his results, by changing and fixing his actions. He can start GETTING good receptions from girls or having fun with girls, because it’s his actions that help create that outcome.

    “With all of the railing against women not being worthwhile one would think that would prompt these men to being indifferent to women – but they aren’t”

    Exactly.

    That’s why the Manosphere has some of the shittiest attitudes toward women of all the communities. Because the Manosphere is the only part of the community that chases women while simultaneously hating and loathing them, and a lot of people in the community PROMOTE and ENCOURAGE that mindset. PUAs probably “love” women the most of all the TRP groups, we know they’re flawed just like we know a dog can bite you, but we enjoy them for what they are. MGTOWs just kind of keep a nice healthy distance. MRAs tend to know it’s mainly hardcore feminist women and the legal system that’s the real problem and try to avoid ending up in situations involving those things. TRP varies because it’s a big community but seems to focus more on themselves than the women. But the Manosphere is the main community that’s like “Let’s go fuck these stupid worthless cunts, because we can’t be without them but we also can’t enjoy them” and that’s where you get a lot of this negative bullshit.

    That’s why a lot of these guys, if they ARE successful with women, even HOT women, often fucking HATE the women they get and have in their lives. And they get women they hate because they aren’t in the right headspace to get women that they enjoy having in their life and DO find value in having around them. It’s warped as fuck and they don’t get that it’s warped because like goth kids having a negativity circlejerk they all back eachother up “ya fuck these stupid ungrateful bitches”

    I NEVER see this kind of negative shit on PUA forums, and if people post it they get LAUGHED AT for it. Like Tyler at the start of this video making fun of some newbie crying on his forum:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j72PZY_rzU4

    “Whether it’s fair or not, by virtue of being a man, you’re going to have to accept your burden of performance.”

    This is what it comes down to and why I don’t sugarcoat it. The reality is if you want to post a negative rant about how ungrateful women are there are DOZENS of guys reading this who will HAPPILY jump in and high-five you and add their own rant about how stupid bitches are. And it’s pretty much guaranteed that the guys participating in that negative circlejerk aren’t fucking quality women they enjoy having in their lives or aren’t getting the results they’d ideally like.

    Someone has to say “look, your circlejerk is cute, but if you ever want to ACTUALLY fix your shit, here’s a dose of reality for you. Take it or don’t, it’s your dick I’m not going to take a horse to water and force him to drink. But there are newbies lurking who are influenced by these discussions and the difference between them going the Elliot Rogers route or the self-improvement route I took can be one post explaining why those negative rants are silly keyboard jockey bullshit and a couple good RSD vids that make them go “huh, this isn’t what that negative guy was talking about at all, this kind of resonates with my experiences…maybe I’ll check out a few more vids” and they end up on a decent path.

    “Living it is the only way keep learning from it.”

    This is why I go out. Why does my advice hold up and why can I keep consistently nailing guy’s sticking points and mindsets and problems off some vague anonymous forum blurb about their general night out? Because I go out and I see this shit regularly. Anyone else who does the same would see it too.

    It’s also probably part of why we have disconnect. You get to observe a LOT, but myself, Tyler, my good-looking buddies, etc. are in the middle of it. We’re battling other guys for girls at the hotdog stand outside the bar after last call while you’re probably closing up shop or on your way home, and we’re dealing with getting girls out for day2s or over for sex when you don’t have to interact with your bottle model after the event and get her to come over and suck your dick. So it’s natural that we would have some disconnect on some aspects of pickup despite agreeing on like 99.999% of Red Pill stuff in general. I only offer the PUA side of the subject because everyone discovering the Red Pill WANTS to buy into what you’re saying because it’s exactly what they already believe and lets them off the hook and lets them make excuses for why they haven’t succeeded yet…I’d rather get those guys out there questioning it and seeing for themselves where the grey areas are and what differences running game makes is all.

    “One reason I will never look to writing Red Pill books as a career option is because it would remove me from the very source of my observations.”

    pfft, don’t think that’ll stop the haters lol:

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-47693-post-1132891.html#pid1132891

    “but I honestly enjoy interacting with even the dullards and the drunks.”

    Last night a buddy my age and I hit a kiddie nightclub venue. Way too high-energy for us, like full of kids partying for the first time now that they’re legally allowed to drink. We both have a solid 10-15 years on everyone there lol When we walked in, my buddy felt out of place and nervous and like an outsider who didn’t belong there. But I felt psyched and was grininng from ear to ear. Was I like Stifler running around with high-energy like the kids? No, him and I are both low-energy guys. But while he focuses on himself and all the negative aspects of being there and how retarded and drunk and dumb everyone is, what *I* see is a bunch of young silly people having fun, girls learning how to be sexy and wrap guys around their fingers, guys wide-eyed staring at girls trying to work up the nerve to say hello while their buddies try to feed them shots to get their confidence up, even the stupid shit like guys getting into fights and girls crying about drama, it’s all hilarious to me. I don’t EXPECT to walk into a kiddie nightclub and see a bunch of people calmly sitting around sipping martinis and discussing politics like my buddy is expecting/hoping for. It’s like when I go to a stripclub I WANT it to be some dirty shithole stripclub full of broken dreams and daddy issues lol That’s what I EXPECT from a stripclub. Throw in loud music and flashing lights and smoke and shit and that nightclub is providing exactly what I expect it to provide.

    Did my buddy and I walk into two different venues? No. We’ve just built different mindsets for viewing the situation we’re entering. My buddy spent the night standing around looking uncomfortable, opened a girl awkwardly who ran off after a minute, and went home early and I spent the night sober making out with a sober 21yo (she bought me drinks and initiated exchanging numbers and I extracted after 2 hours before last call and got her to walk me to my building but hit LMR, 90% sure she just wasn’t expecting to pick up and wasn’t groomed down below or had her period, she’s txting today and I’ll ask her why she didn’t come up when I bang her lol also I told her my age early, it’s actually funny to me to bring up age, if you do it after you have some Attraction they feel embarrassed about being too young lol). “BUT YAREALLY Y U DINT GET LAID I THOT U WERE PUA??” Shit, you’re right, that whole night was a waste of my time. It cost me $5 cover and $0 in drinks and I had to have a fun flirty 2 hour conversation with a cute chick 10+ years younger than me that I had good chemistry with in-between making out with her and will probably bang her this week. Worst night ever!!! lol

    Do I just happen to meet the one friendly receptive girl in the venue who’s a huge super-slut whore and my buddy just happened to run into bitchy chicks? Or is it that I’m going in with a much better positive comfortable value-giving headspace (I was joking about how I’m going to give the kids there life advice and call them “son” and make 80s references they won’t understand because that’s funny to me) which changes everything about how I act in the venue compared to him, from obvious external actions to internal mindsets to subcommunications girls pick up on. All I was expecting from anyone in that venue was being silly kids and providing me with entertainment when I’m making myself laugh.

    @Jeremy

    “In fact, the biggest demographic that makes use of PUA material online are male introverts.”

    I’m an introvert btw. Even though people don’t believe it lol Social interaction is actually draining to me and I prefer my alone time by default. But I make an effort to let whatever extroversion I have out when I go out because I’ve learned to view that as fun. Playing a sport is draining too, but it’s fun and worth it. That’s how I view sarging. I’m also low energy in-field, I don’t high-five or spin-hug chicks or anything, I just talk and laser.

    “Worse, when they make attempts to be social, and find failure, they’ll often blame everything but themselves.”

    This. That’s why we make fun of them and give them tough love. Because EVERYONE will coddle them and tell them it’s those stupid bitches or it’s stupid feminists or it’s the Feminist Imperitive bla bla bla and help foster those guys’ shitty mindsets which is alright to an extent, they’ll have a great understanding of the world around them…but they’re still going to be alone and miserable or hate the girls they’re fucking and be a different kind of miserable. The only thing worse than not getting the thing you want is getting a shitty version of it.

    “Worse, these same men have self-convinced that every tiny failure is worth quitting over.”

    When The Game first came out we were all scared SHITLESS that PUA was going to go mainstream and EVERY guy was going to run game and every girl would know all our routines and tactics and shit. Turns out 99.99999% of guys don’t have the desire to stick with it lol Most guys haven’t hit rock bottom. Guys like Tyler and myself hit rock bottom, that’s why we took this whole adventure on. ’cause anything was better than where we were at.

    I’m not some super charismatic alpha broski born and raised who’s laughing at introverted nerds. We were just as fucked up, if not fucked up MORE because we didn’t even have Rollo’s blog or TRP shit to read and understand the world, but we took action and handled our shit. It wasn’t easy, we went through the same bullshit anyone else is. Any of the Field Reports you guys write where you run into some bullshit cockblock or sticking point or mental hurdle, we ran into the same bullshit. We just didn’t give up and we didn’t have a community that would SUPPORT us giving up and ENCOURAGE us to give up.

    @Jeremy
    “Think of modern male introverts like you would a fat girl who has never in her life lifted weights”

    Fucking lol, this is a great analogy. PUAs are the guys who say “look, you’re fat and it’s technically your fault, but that means you can change your actions and work toward fixing that if you want to” But that fatty has to hit rock bottom before she’ll finally accept that she has ANY fault in the situation and will start changing her actions and stick to it. As long as we allow her to blame everything else in the world for her problems, she’ll just keep falling back into old habits and victim complexes. She can piss & moan all she wants about how unfair it is and I can even AGREE with her that it’s unfair and understand how she feels it’s victim-blaming because she wasn’t taught good diet habits by society and her parents bought her shitty food growing up, but end of the day if she wants to lose that fat she’s gotta fix her diet and exercise. No way around it, sorry.

    “Ironically, society actually does try to convince these guys that they’re outcasts, but this has little effect save to push these guys into further isolation”

    The catch there is that with the internet those guys find like-minded guys and create their own communities based around that commonality of being isolated outsiders. Same as fat chicks gravitating and guys in the Manosphere with negative mindsets congregating on RVF to complain.

    “When you see these guys at the clubs, they’re standing at the bar by themselves, admiring some detail on the alcohol shelves that they manage to find worth spinning their brain cycles on. They have no clue how to make eye-contact and introduce themselves. They’re actually in danger of embarrassing themselves terribly without help in many cases, and the people in the bar to whom all of this comes easy… avoid them like the plague because it just makes their interaction harder.”

    I actually often befriend these guys ’cause I remember what that was like. I’ll just chat them up and joke around and try to get them to feel comfortable and if I can get them to loosen up a bit I’ll try to stop girls randomly to introduce them to him lol For me it’s just fucking around so it’s no big deal for me, but for him it can be like “wow this is the best night of my LIFE!! I talked to a girl!!!” (when he has no idea she wasn’t even into him). I actually ran into a guy who did that to me back before I found PUA (I suspect he WAS a PUA, looking back on it). I had no idea what he was trying to show me and was terrified by the whole thing but that night is burned into my brain.

    “Do these people really need to continue blaming the world for their troubles?”

    That’s my view. I mean, the REASON some guy is a 30yo virgin is because he’s been allowed to blame everything else in the world for his problems and avoid taking action and personal responsibility and doing what he can to improve in that area of his life. He doesn’t need me to offer him that too, everyone else will. If he want answers, hey, here you go buddy I’m rooting for you and props for being humble enough to admit you need help.

    “In fact, these people need to have their exact failures reinforced clearly in their heads so they do not default to blaming the world for their condition.”

    Like Tyler says part of why we force guys to go out is because the field will rub their sticking points in their face. I can LOOK at you and guess where you may have social issues, but if you go out every day for a month the field is going to let you know exactly where you’re fucking up socially, especially if you’re doing Field Reports and getting guys with more or similar experience to look at them and try to help you figure out what you’re doing wrong.

    But that involves leaving your comfort zone and guys are terrified to do that these days.

    @CaveClown
    “But the fat girl is encouraged to blame society for her condition, where as an introverted socially unskilled man is not.”

    Till he comes to the Manosphere. (the parts of the Manosphere that aren’t Rollo’s blog at least lol) NOW he can blame “those stupid ungrateful bitches” and high-five SD and hollenhund. But like Jeremy says that wasn’t his point, his point was about how we treat the person with the problem. Like it’s UNFAIR that men have the burden of performance, but hey, that’s reality, suck it up, here’s how to handle that in the most optimal way when you finally give in and accept that life isn’t fair sometimes, ya know? (not you, but these guys in general)

    @Jeremy
    “Unfortunately since I was also conditioned to self-restrict-sexually a lot of the positive social success that I had in that area when I was younger was simply stopped cold by implanted dogma. In effect, I was trained not to “close””

    This is why a lot of good-looking rich etc dudes DON’T get laid as much as people think. Even if the girl makes moves they panic and don’t know what to do because their internals are still socially conditioned all fucked up.

    “Anyway, she brought me into her apartment and bedroom without any real prompting from me. It was a clear invitation. I mean, I had green lights flashing all around me. She even excused herself to the bathroom while I was sitting on her bed. When she came out, I politely excused myself and walked out.”

    lol yup, I had a few of those experiences before PUA too. Fucking hilarious looking back on them how oblivious/retarded I was.

    Yet when a guy is good-looking or rich we all just assume he won’t have those same internal hangups that we did…as if he’s just magically born with an “I FUCK EVERYTHING RARRRR!!” gene and wasn’t subject to the same bullshit social conditioning the rest of us were.

    Like look at these fuckin guys. 1:25 the profiles start:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_OTg06kF2Q&t=1m25s

    Roofer is a good-lookin dude, alpha blue-collar job backyard BBQ type guy, dresses up in a nice blazer. And his competition is a decent lookin dude, good sense of humor, confidence, extroverted. These guys should do just fine.

    I won’t spoil the episode because it’s a good watch, but the part I wanted to focus on that’s related to “not closing” is 11:23 in that vid. He has to use a girl to make his pretend ex jealous. This girl is DYING to make out with him, practically from “hello”. She’s even making the moves on him. Offering to buy her drinks, asking for her number. Even the judges are like “the only thing he should be paying for is cab fare home”.

    But anyone who looked at a picture of that dude esp compared to a pic of me they would be like “this guy on the show is a good looking guy, he’s a roofer, he should be getting laid ’cause guys like that just have to say two words and get laid. Except they often don’t SAY those two words or say two of the WRONG words lol And I’ll take girls off that guy blindfolded.

    Highly recommend watching this show, it’ll blow a lot of limiting beliefs guys have. I see this shit play out in-field all the time lol

    “You can’t let them keep telling themselves that, “That woman is just a cunt, that’s why she won’t go home with me,” because frankly it’s just not true.”

    Reality is that girl who was a “cunt” is sweet as sugar for guys who aren’t all fucked up internally. That chick isn’t like, at home with her family on Christmas going “THIS PRESENT SUCKS, UGH, I HATE YOU ALL” She’s a sweet little dork who’s brother makes fun of her and her daddy scolds. That’s the same girl at the bar. The side of her you see is often based on the energy you’re bringing to the interaction.

    You can’t control the outcome, but you can control your actions. PUA teaches you to control what you can and let go of (but understand) what you can’t.

    @Andy
    “I have spent most of my life feeling like I’m surrounded by idiots. I still get that feeling a lot. But there are interesting people out there and you can’t tell by looking at them.”

    I find a lot of people have SOMETHING to offer if you give them the opportunity to share it. It might not be anything relevant to your life, it might be one little snippet they share, but like, people are inherently pretty good. A big part of rapport is helping other people express themselves and what makes them special. Like the chick I was talking to last night was going on about how she doesn’t give a fuck about anything (trying to be a bad girl type, it was cute lol), but I just cut through that and told her I don’t believe that and I know she’s passionate about SOMETHING and asked her what’s the one thing she can’t shut up about when someone brings it up and she confessed what it was and we had a fun chat about it. Is she going to teach me anything about that subject? Probably not, she’s just a girl. But like, I’m not expecting her to teach me anything just like I’m not expecting to learn anything if my 5yo niece is excitedly telling me about the tea party she had with her stuffed animals today. It’s not a waste of my time and I’m not doing it “just to get laid”, I know the sex will probably happen and if it doesn’t with her it will with a different girl at some point. I’m just having fun interacting with other human beings.

    And that was consciously developed. I was a full out negative hermit recluse living in my computer room for years when I was younger…but part of WHY I was that was because I didn’t have any guidance for how to socialize with people or enjoy social environments or how to flirt with girls.

    @agent p
    “The only fat chick, she wasn’t even so much fat as she was thick, that I ever fucked, her line to me once in bed was, “You can do anything you want to me!”.”

    I’ve found that normal/hot chicks often feel the same way, but a guy will do fucked up dirty shit to a fat chick that a hotter girl WISHES a guy would do to her, but every guy treats her like a fragile porcelein doll in bed. If you like kinky rough shit, push that on normal/hot girls, they love it as much as the fatties if you can get past the mental barrier of slapping around a hot girl lol

    @hollenhund
    “You know, I’m not exactly a fan of Roosh, but at least he gives a clear assessment of pick-up.”

    Funny how literally one of the most negative guys who teaches pick-up with the most bleak depressing negative view of interacting with women, is the one you resonate with and see as the accurate version lol I’m sure that’s a coincidence and not at all your brain focusing on enforcing and justfying your shitty world view.

    “He observed that Western women typically view their (potential) male companions as circus clowns, optional life accessories for amusement. In another article, he called Game an “obligatory pursuit” for men. Those were his exact words. Again, that’s straight talk, no bullshit.”

    Now let’s go find the goth kids who know that all those bleak emo songs about how the world sucks are telling the straight talk no bullshit. Like I say, you can’t see the negative headspaces you’ve built up, and you don’t want to because you LOVE them. You’ve made an identity out of it and you just want to keep reinforcing it. That’s why I’m not really trying to help or coddle you. You don’t want my help, or anyone’s help, you just want reinforcement of your shitty views, that’s why Roosh’s views resonate with you lol

    “If that’s what you took away from my comments, you clearly weren’t paying any attention.”

    So explain better. The onus is on you to be clear, not on me to guess at what you’re trying to say.

    @Jeremy
    “The words I’ve ready from Roosh to that end were his assessment of *himself*… he felt that he was the clown, and felt forced into that role in order to game western women.”

    Whether these were his words or not, it IS an assessment of himself and his view of himself and pickup. It’s entirely possible to be a dancing clown for women, but a lot of the guys who find women viewing them that way are setting that frame themselves. Roosh’s style of game is based around selling himself, so he falls into a dancing clown frame. What PUA teaches, especially these days, is to make the girl sell herself to YOU. SHE should be YOUR dancing clown. That’s why that girl was buying our drinks last night, because I made her sell herself to me instead of the other way around. And I do that with hardcore qualifying and making her invest, while Roosh’s crew talk a big game but end up supplicative and acting like dancing monkeys infield (from the vids I’ve seen and meetup reports I’ve read).

    @hoellenhund
    “Really, why can’t you simply bring yourself to say “dead bedrooms are men’s fault”? That’s exactly what you meant, and it even takes much fewer words to say it. ”

    Because it’s not true in 100% of cases. But it’s often true, and preventable/fixable.

    “Again, why not simply say it? At least it’d make it obvious to everyone that you’re on the same side as feminists and tradcons,”

    That’s why I don’t say it. Because guys like you who are looking to create a victim narrative will irrationally blow it out of proportion and miss the point instead of intelligently discussing it. You’re doing exactly what feminists do. “WUT NOT BEING DRUNK IN A MINISKIRT IN AN ALLEYWAY WITH 5 GUYS WOULDVE HELPED PREVENT HER RAPE? SO UR SAYING ITS HER FAULT AND ALL WOMEN WHO GET RAPED ARE SLUTS WHO DESERVED IT!!!!” You are irrational and emotional and I’m attempting to keep the discussion somewhere in productive territory while you try to derail it with your feelz.

    “And I’ll show you a fucking cunt who should be thrown in jail, whose company no man should’ve sought in the first place.”

    lol

    “If you’re attempting here to promote PUA here, I can tell you for sure that you’re doing a very crappy job.”

    I’m not attempting to promote it to you. I know you don’t actually want help. But you’re doing an excellent job of promoting it for me even if you don’t realize it. 🙂

    @agent p
    “Ignorance is not a defence in law, but it’s a reasonable moral defence in a situation where someone genuinely does not know what the right thing is to do.”

    The catch is a lot of men, like hollenhund, will be given the answers or have complete free access TO learning, but choose to stay ignorant because it feels so much better to just stew in anger.

  83. @hoellenhund,
    You know who is the master of game ?
    WOMEN.
    Ugly women, beautiful women, fat women, they all game you, 95% of words that comes out of their mouths are games, shit tests, and manipulation.

    Men need to learn game to combat women’s natural game ability .
    Nothing makes me laugh but when hearing women saying ; men play games.

  84. @hoellenhund2

    We are not men in the traditional sense—we are clowns. With our tight game we have to be entertainers who create drama and excitement in a girl’s life, just long enough so that she spreads her legs and makes sexy noises, and even though she did commit such an intimate act with us, she will soon lose interest or simply get bored, and then move on to the next shiny cock that catches her eye.

    As that is the only paragraph in that link that refers to men as clowns, I repeat my claim that that is Roosh’s assessment of himself and game-practiced men. That is not what he thinks women feel of the men who do these things. You were taking his words out of context above. Roosh speaking to what he feels he is when gaming western women is a far cry different from implying that all western women regard men as useless clowns for their amusement.

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