Red Pill Parenting – Part II

Father-Son1

What I’m about to detail here will be a revolutionary act; I’m going to give men some prescriptive advice on how I believe they should go about raising their children from a Red Pill perspective. As most of my readers know I do my best to provide observations and connect dots, from there I expect men (and women) to form their own takes on what I’m seeing and either challenge those observations or develop some actionable practice that best suits their own circumstances.

I’ll be breaking that protocol here, but the premise still applies; what I think might be universally applicable to raising and mentoring the next generation may need to be modified for what your experience and circumstances dictate.

That said, the very idea that I would inform or instruct men (and by association women) on how I think a healthier, more durable generation of men might be developed in a Red Pill awareness is tantamount to being a hate crime today. My suggesting that boys and girls would benefit greatly from a Red Pill aware father is a frightening, seditionary act in a feminine-primary social order.

As things stand on a societal level now, just the mention of Red Pill truths in casual conversation will engender either ridicule or hostility. As Red Pill awareness spreads it will be considered subversive, particularly in a social order founded on the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primary social prioritization.

I don’t have too much positive to say about Roosh these days, but one thing I had to agree with was his recent assessment of how it’s necessary for men to meet in secret gatherings and maintain (as best as possible) a state of constant anonymity if they wish to discuss anything counter to feminine-primary social doctrine. Main stream media in feminine-primary society will characterize this need for anonymity as indicative of cowardice or a lack of conviction; bitter men just contenting themselves in their private anger and poisoning the minds of whomever will listen to them.

They need this characterization for now because men have something to lose. They fear having their bread taken away from them – the same bread that feminine-primary society expects men to provide the very women who would use it to extort a desired complacency from men. Cowardice is rooted in the fear of having something to lose. Once men become largely indifferent to that bread being forthcoming, that’s either when they snap, or that’s when they start a revolution.

ScribblerG (a.k.a. Glenn) had a good reminder for men in the last thread:

Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. At best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself.

I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later, wondering if my daughter would ever realize all I sacrificed to provide for her and her mom? I’d wonder if she’d ever get that I sacrificed being as close to her as her mother is to her for her wellbeing? That her closeness with her mom as a result of having a stay at home mom until she was 5 was a consequence of my efforts, not her Mom’s?

Guess what – nobody wants to hear it. Nobody gives a shit what sacrifices you make to be a good father and provider – it’s all about Mom. It’s all about the kids. Dad’s are at best seen as second best Moms most of the time. And even when we are “in charge”, we can be dismissed as superfluous in myriad ways.

Many men adapt by becoming second mothers and wives in the household – and the entire culture encourages this. Try being a traditional male at parent teacher night or at the pre-school or even the Boy Scout troop…Fatherhood and a family is not what it once was either. Trust me, learn from my experience. Your kids will very likely not appreciate all you’ve done for them.

Of course, I excuse all the fundo-christian-demi-god-uber-alpha-ripped-11 inch cock-men of steel™ here from this commentary. For you guys, it’s 1956 and your life is like Wally and the Beav…

Just like men subscribe to two sets of books – old and new social rule sets that contradict the other – I think our ideas of marriage fall into this same contradiction. When marriage was a social contract and not so much a legal one involving the state, the old set of books applied well to that institution. This old set of rules about marriage and what men could expect from that largely socially-enforced institution worked well and in a complementary paradigm. From the Little House on the Prairie days up to the post-war era, the first set of books worked well with regard to marriage and fatherhood.

After the sexual revolution, the second set of books took social preeminence. Optimizing Hypergamy and all of the social and legal paradigms that make it the foundation of our present social order took priority. Yet, both men and women still cling to the old order, the first set of rules when it comes to a man’s role as a husband and a father, and simultaneously expect him to adopt and promote the feminine-primary interests of the new feminine-primary order.

Fathers are expected to follow the edicts of conventional masculinity with regards to their provisioning for a family, but are also expected to adopt, embrace and internalize their popularized role of being superfluous, ridiculous or even angry and abusively resistant to the second set of rules.

In other words, the expectation is that he should  be happy in his sacrificial role of provider, happy in his lack of appreciation for it or his presence, and happy to have the ‘village’ of society raise his children into the next crop of confused, frustrated adults while he’s doing it. He should be happy in his presence being devalued, but be held responsible for his lack of presence that his sacrifices demands.

Oh, and he should also feel a sense of smug pride when he see another man being pilloried for the same lack of his superfluous presence in his family’s life.

Raising Kids

I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.

You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them. Your presence is only as superfluous as you allow it to be. While you will never be appreciated for it in any measurable sense, you will be liable for it, so my advice is to make the most of it in a Red Pill respect. Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order. If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding.

Understand now, the Feminine Imperative wants you to be despondent about your role.

Understand this, your presence, your influence, will only be as valuable or as appreciated as you are willing to make it to yourself. Your Red Pill aware influence in your kids’ lives needs to matter to you first, because it will never be appreciated in your time, and in fact will be actively, hostilely, be resisted by a world saturated in feminine-primacy.

Being a mother and birthing a child is a constantly lauded position today. By virtue of being a mother, women are rewarded and respected in society. Men must add fatherhood to their burden of performance just to avoid the societal default of being vilified.

The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.

In Preventive Medicine I detail part of our present feminine-primary conditioning and how the imperative raises boys to be Betas and girls to be caricatures of Strong Independent Women®. Part of this was based on the essay Teach Your Children Well and the early ages at which this begins. The first, most primary truth you need to accept as a father is that if you don’t teach your children Red Pill truths there is an entire western(izing) world that is already established to raise them in your absence.

‘The Village’ will raise your kids if you don’t. You will be resisted, you will be ridiculed, you will be accused of every thought-crime to the point of being dragged away to jail in your imparting Red Pill awareness (in the future I expect it to be equated with child abuse). The Village will teach your boys from the most impressionable ages (5 years old) to loath their maleness, to feel shame for being less perfect than girls and to want to remake their gender-identity more like girls.

The Village will raise your daughters to perpetuate the same cycle that devalues conventional masculinity, the same cycle that considers men’s presence as superfluous and their sacrifices as granted expectations. It will raise your daughters to over-inflate their sense of worth with unearned confidence at the expense of boys as their foils. It will teach them to openly embrace Hypergamy as their highest authority and to disrespect anything resembling masculinity as more than some silly anachronism.

The good news is that for all of these efforts in social engineering, the Feminine Imperative is still confounded by basic biology and the psychological firmware evolved into us over millennia. That basic root reality is your greatest advantage as a father.

Raising Boys

I’m often asked when I believe would be the best time to introduce a boy to the Red Pill. A lot of guys with teenage sons want to hand them a copy of The Rational Male before they hit 18, or maybe when they’re 15, some even say 12 is really a good time. While it’s flattering for me to hear men tell me how they gave their teenage sons a copy of my book, I have to think that this is too late.

I’ve been a father to a teenage daughter for a while now and in my 20’s I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.

By the time that kid is 10 they’ve already internalized the stereotypes and social conditioning of the Blue Pill and they will start parroting these memes and behaving and believing in accordance with that conditioning. By the time they are in their tweens and beginning to socially interact with the opposite sex, the Blue Pill feminine-primary conditioning will be evident to any man with a Red Pill lens to hear and see it. That Blue Pill internalized ideology will seem natural and logical to them even though they couldn’t tell you how they came to their formative beliefs.

The time to start exemplifying Red Pill awareness in a parental capacity is before you even have kids. As I detailed in the first of these posts, an internalized Game that results from strong Red Pill awareness and a positive, dominant Frame control are imperative before you even consider monogamy. That Frame becomes the foundation for your parenting when your children come along.

I realize this isn’t exactly helpful for men who came to Red Pill awareness after their kids were in their teens, but it needs to be addressed for men considering becoming a father. Ideally you want to impart that same Red Pill awareness during a boy’s formative years. Children completely lack the capacity for abstract thought until their brains fully form and they learn to develop it. The age of 5 is the time when kids are most impressionable and learn the most, but they do so by watching behavior. So it’s imperative for a Red Pill father to demonstrate positive, conventional masculinity during these years.

Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.

Within this male-space your son needs to learn about his eventual burden of performance.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked. This is important because it not only teaches him to value his masculinity, but also to accept the responsibilities of his burden of performance.

Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.

He needs to learn that men and women are different and only deserving of earned respect, not a default respect granted to the female sex. Eventually he needs to learn to accept his own dominance and mastery in a world that will tell him his sex is a scourge on society.

Your presence in his life is an absolute necessity if you are to thwart the efforts of fem-centrism. I was asked about Red Pill fathering in my last Christian McQueen interview and my first inclination was to say do things with your son. Even if that’s playing chess, being the man, his model for masculinity is vitally important and to impart this to him you need to have a mutual purpose. As I’ve written before, women talk, men do. Men get together socially with a purpose, an action, a hobby, a sport, a creative endeavor, etc. and then they communicate while working towards that purpose.

Your son must learn this from a very early age, particularly when he’s likely to be forced into feminine-primary social structures and conditioned to communicate like girls do in school as well as in popular media. One of the tragedies of our age is a generation of Blue Pill men raising their sons to adopt feminine-primary communication preferences because they themselves had no experience with conventional masculinity. They can’t teach what they don’t understand.

Demonstrate, do not explicate is true of dealing with women, but it is also an imperative of Red Pill parenting. Your son (and daughter) needs to see his mother’s deference to your dominant Frame and beneficent authority. He needs to understand on a rudimentary level that his mother responds to your positively masculine Frame. Again this is imperative since your kids will see a much different narrative being displayed in popular culture and their schooling.

Show him how a man presents himself, how a man reacts to a threat, how a man commands a dog, how a man interacts with, and helps, other men he values. Do not think that you’ll start teaching him Red Pill awareness when he’s old enough to understand it. By then it’s too late, he’s resistant to it and thinks his Beta Game is more appropriate. Your son will follow your lead, but that must start from day one, not age 12. I have a good friend now who’s 16 year old son is literally following the same path his Beta father; he’s moved in with his estranged ex wife because he was closer to his ONEitis girlfriend. Now she’s bailed on him and he’s stuck with his neurotic mother.

The consequences of a Blue Pill conditioned mindset also start early. I’ve seen 10 year old boys despondent over not having a girlfriend. I’ve counseled a girl who’s former teenage boyfriend stabbed and killed her new boyfriend 32 times because she was his ONE. They get ONEitis because they are taught to be predisposed to it.

As your son moves into his teenage years that connection you began in his formative years should strengthen. You can begin to introduce him to Red Pill awareness, but in all likelihood you’ll notice him using his own Red Pill lens when it comes to dealing with girls. His grasping the fundaments of women’s dualistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy and how this will be used against him in the future is something imperative that he learns later.

This is the time to reinforce that Red Pill sensitivity and capitalize on his own awareness by introducing him to Red Pill ideas he wasn’t aware of. Bluntly, overtly declaring Red Pill truths might make sense to you, but plucking out bits of his own Red Pill observations and expanding on them in his teen years will probably be received better and more naturally.

One thing I know about teenage boys and girls is that if you try to tell them something profound they roll their eyes and blow you off, but if you wait for the right moment to let them come to that thing you want them to learn on their own then they’re receptive to it. Your demonstrating Red Pill awareness doesn’t stop when they’re teens.

Raising Girls

Much of what I’ve outlined for raising boys would cross over into raising a daughter, however there are some differences in approach. Exemplifying a Red Pill ideal, and demonstrations of positive, dominantly masculine Frame control are still the highest priority, but more so is the modeled behavior of the girl’s mother toward you and that Frame. If your wife resists, ridicules or mocks your Frame, this is the lesson your daughter will be taught about masculinity. You must model her perceptions of masculinity while your wife models the aspects of femininity – for better or worse.

A lot of how you approach raising a daughter can be based on your Red Pill understanding of how to deal with women, and based on much of the same basic gender-complementary foundations. The same Game principles you would use with women are actually founded on behavior sets that little girls learn and enjoy while they’re growing up. Amused Mastery is a prime example of this.

You will notice that root level Hypergamy manifests itself in girls at a very young age. In Warren Farrell’s book, Why Men Are The Way They Are he notes that girls as young as 7 already have a a definition of the (celebrity) “boys they’d like to kiss and the boys they’d like to marry.” No doubt girls’ acculturation influences their preferences, but the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks archetypes are part of their mental firmware.

As a father, your primary role will be one of modeling the provider security seeking aspect of the Hypergamous equation. While that comfort and control is necessary it tends to be a trap for most Betas. The challenge most Beta fathers fail at is embracing and owning the very necessary Alpha / Dominant role that makes up the other side of that equation.

The challenge is exemplifying Amused Mastery with your daughter, but in such a way that it balances Alpha dominance and control with rapport, security and comfort. In my post Myth of the Good Guy I make the case that adult women don’t really look for this balance in the same man. Alphas are for fucking, Betas are for long term security, and men who think they can embody both are neither sought after nor really believable. The root of this AF/BB mental separation of Hypergamous purpose-specific men can be traced back to the impression of masculinity that woman’s father set for her in her formative years.

Lean too far toward Alpha dominance and you become the asshole abuser who domineered poor mom while she was growing up. Lean too far to the Beta, permissive, passive and feminine side of the spectrum and the future men in her life will be colored by your deferring to the feminine as authority – thus placing her in the role of having to create the security she never expects men to have a real command of.

The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself. The challenge of raising a girl is embodying the dominant masculine man you will eventually be proud to call your son in law. Your daughter needs to be able to identify that guy by comparing him to the masculine role you set for her.

Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.

If you were uncomfortable experimenting with Red Pill concepts while you were single, you’ll be even more so in raising a daughter. The most important impression you need to leave her with is that men and women are different, but complementary to the other. She needs to know that your masculine dominance is beneficial to both her and her mother, and your personal mastery of you conditions and environment as an aid to her and the family. She needs to understand that girls and women are, sometimes, excluded from male-spaces, particularly if you also have a son. In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

505 comments on “Red Pill Parenting – Part II

  1. @Höllenhund:

    What purpose does it have to discuss who’s fault it is? If you could objectively proof, it’s women’s fault, what next? Is there some court where you could sue “all womenkind” to do better? Will the government come to help and make better women? No.
    And if they say it’s the men’s fault, who cares? Neither can women sue “all the man” to become “good men”.

    Asking for who is to blame is a game for stupids. Blame is only relevant for one’s own assessment of self-worth. It’s justifying why you are the good one, which is actually following a foreign but internalized mental point of origin.

    So the relevant question is never who is to blame, but only and always: what can I do to get what I want? And from this point of view, “being at fault” actually means nothing less than the power to change things, which is surely not bad at all.

    1. I was about to say the same. I’m less inclined to find “fault” or place blame than I am to look at what’s contributed to the conditions of men and women.

      If in that process there’s a deliberate maliciousness involved, then I may be convinced that blame is due. However, more often than not what we want to attribute to blame is often the result of ignorance.

      So, are the men of DeadBedrooms at fault for their sexless marriages? Hard to say in a subjective sense, but what almost all have been subject of is an ignorance of the conditioning and processes that led to their conditions. The vengeful Beta delegation would put the fault on women or Alpha exploiters because they believe it’s a conscious effort on their part to do so, but I’d say most of the DeadBedroomers are where they are because they made some very grave uneducated decisions based on bad information or conditioned beliefs about the social rules they and women would be mutually using.

      Fool me once, your fault. Fool me twice, my fault. And ironically most of the men in the DB forum still adamantly reject Red Pill truths.

  2. @YaReally

    Yet when a guy is good-looking or rich we all just assume he won’t have those same internal hangups that we did…as if he’s just magically born with an “I FUCK EVERYTHING RARRRR!!” gene and wasn’t subject to the same bullshit social conditioning the rest of us were.

    I think women are especially guilty of this. Their projection knows no bounds. All they know is getting sex relatively easily, so when they see a good-looking/rich dude they often presume that guy gets a lot of tail. There is no comprehension in their pretty heads of innate male sacrifice or the uniquely male condition of having to perform, so they presume sexuality comes easily to men as it does to them.

    I’ve actually never met a man to whom sexuality with women came without significant learning as a child. Actually, if sexuality with the opposite sex were so natural that sex with children could not so adversely affect it in adults, we probably wouldn’t consider pedophilia a crime. But we know, as a society, that sexual contact with minors is horribly psychologically scarring on people, we know this. So why is it so hard for society to recognize all the other forms of poor sexualization in young adults? Why is it so hard for parents in America especially, to recognize that kids don’t just “figure this (icky) stuff out on their own,” and can instead end up with significant social retardation from early experiences.

  3. On Roosh:

    RSDMax just put up his “origin story”. He started gaming in Washington DC, the city that Roosh and his crew complain about NON-STOP as being the worst and having the worst bitchy femincunt lizard bitches etc etc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQWJ7Xo1t_E

    And yet, Max didn’t run into these same problems. I wonder why. You know how many conversations about feminism I’ve had with girls in the bar in my LIFE? Literally one, and it was hilarious and I almost fucked one of the girls in the group lol Because they don’t bring that shit up if you’re not approaching them with this weird “these bitches are all ungrateful man-hating entitled feminazi cunts” energy those guys have.

    He even gives a shout out to Roosh’s article but doesn’t know his name (because the PUA community doesn’t really know or care about Roosh or the Manosphere because it’s all a bunch of negative complaining shit to us) and says “I read this article about how Washington DC is the worst city in the world to get laid and I was like wut I don’t get it I haven’t had any problems” lol

    Were they gaming in different cities? No. When RSD runs bootcamps in DC are they in some alternate universe version of it that the RVF guys aren’t in? No. If DC was a nightmare why would they even run bootcamps there, they’d get terrible results and it would reflect bad on the company. And yet they run bootcamps there and do just fine with girls that RVF’ers complain about. This just goes back to how you’re approaching social interactions and how you view women in general.

    Here’s infield footage (near the start) of Tyler and a dentist buddy both talking to the same girl…the girl bitches out the dentist buddy for saying something sexual but then LOVES Tyler for the exact same thing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGEO6ig8WsM

    Is it because Tyler is a SUPER SEXY RICH MALE MODEL? lol no, Tyler is just approaching with a better energy and better understanding of women than his buddy is.

    At 2:16 in that video Tyler’s talking to a girl from Washington DC who LOVES him and all the sexual shit he’s saying and him making fun of her feminist career attitude, but then immediately after when his chode buddy has tried the same thing she bitches him out hardcore scolding him and Tyler even calls her out on the double-standard.

    You can LITERALLY SEE how the energy you approach an interaction with changes the EXACT SAME GIRL’s behavior in these infield clips.

    And yet guys like SD and hollenhund will continue to believe that women are all just stupid bitch cunt whorez and will never understand that yes, a lot of the time they run into that it IS the guy’s fault lol

    Max’s origin is also a good story about how much guys who REALLY want this shit put into it. Everyone wants it nice and easy these days, but if you want to get good it could take actual effort and discomfort for a period of time.

    But hey, it got him here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXYABu7KFls&t=10s

    And here’s Julien’s origin story:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUzZxPZep-g

    And here’s part of Tyler’s origin story:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHqTT_uCal8

    This is why I can’t remember who (Forge?), where he was like “my city sucks”, it’s like, so fucking MOVE lol Find a way to make it happen. If you aren’t happy and this is an important thing for you then figure out how to save up the money and manage your career in a way that you can put yourself in a better location (I know you’re working on it so I’m not bugging you right now or anything, I’m just using you as a relevant example ’cause you shared your story). Tyler slept on a mattress in a closet, RSDTodd slept in a tent in the Project Hollywood back yard. I used to micromanage my time so that I was able to work a 9-5 and sarge most nights (that’s why I can post like this but then vanish for weeks at a time, ’cause I have sick time management skills now lol).

    It’s harder to make sacrifices if you’re like, a 40+ dude with an ex-wife and kids or a career locked down into one city. But like, if that’s NOT you? Then you can find a solution to your situation, and if you go out and sarge and get this shit handled the way you want to, it’s worth the sacrifice. You’re gonna be on your deathbed alone with your thoughts and memories and possible regrets.

  4. @Jeremy
    “I think women are especially guilty of this. Their projection knows no bounds. All they know is getting sex relatively easily, so when they see a good-looking/rich dude they often presume that guy gets a lot of tail.”

    Solipsism in action. Solipsism and Hypergamy are the two major things that I’m grateful to Rollo for explaining. HUGE missing puzzle pieces that clear up so much shit.

    “There is no comprehension in their pretty heads of innate male sacrifice or the uniquely male condition of having to perform, so they presume sexuality comes easily to men as it does to them.”

    Thing is to paraphrase Tyler: “When you ask a girl how do you want a guy to approach you to get you into bed, she’s not picturing how does the 5’7″ balding ginger nasally voiced troll approach you, what would you want HIM to do to get you into bed? What would you want the socially awkward introverted World of Warcraft 300lbs nerd to do to get you into bed? She’s picturing someone WAY above her in value like her personal Brad Pitt ideal who makes her nervous and is some rich alpha male CEO she knows she doesn’t deserve (aka Twilight and 50 Shades and every other hollywood movie where the badass amazing lead guy goes for the plain jane mousey average girl)…so she says I just want him to be NICE, and tell me he really thinks I’m special and he likes me and ask me politely to dinner and be really nice to me. And then when some normal guy tries that she’s repulsed by him”

    Below a certain SMV level, guys are invisible to women. They literally don’t register they exist. That’s why women are always talking about the rich white CEO patriarchy, they only see the rich CEO guys, they don’t register the plumber or the garbage man in their world view.

    @Rollo
    “However, more often than not what we want to attribute to blame is often the result of ignorance.”

    Agree completely. Which is why I’m here ruining your blog comment section with 400 pages of stupid Tyler vids, because every post by a hollenhund or SD that goes unchallenged just builds momentum from like-minded guys and the lurkers reading want SO BAD to believe in those guys’ world view because it’s the view they already believe in that alleviates responsibility from them and lets them embrace a victim identity, that I HAVE to post PUA shit in hopes that those guys who are following this discussion stumble across that stuff and start learning and become less ignorant so that even if they don’t go the full PUA route, they at least learn enough to stop making retarded mistakes that land them in Deadbedrooms or as ForeverAloners.

  5. I mean, the REASON some guy is a 30yo virgin is because he’s been allowed to blame everything else in the world for his problems and avoid taking action and personal responsibility and doing what he can to improve in that area of his life. He doesn’t need me to offer him that too, everyone else will.

    Yeah. 30-year-old male virgins routinely blame the entire world for their condition, and the reason is that everyone, society in general, allows them to blame everyone beside themselves. Seems legit. I’m sure it happens all the time! That must be the case, right? It’s not like men are routinely told in public discourse in no uncertain terms that whatever problems they have are solely their own fault, or that those aren’t actually real problems at all. Right?

  6. The blame is on the “be yourself”.
    The “Be yourself” scheme ,stripped men from the game.
    Game for men was power, and it had to be taken by FI.

  7. “When she came out, I politely excused myself and walked out.”

    been reading about this lately as I have a similar issue

    from j ronson interviewing j lehrer (on carelessness)

    jl: “I wasn’t turning anything down”

    jr: “What would have been wrong with turning things down?”

    jl: “It was some toxic mixture of insecurity and ambition” “I always felt like a fad.” “So I had to act while I could”

    the opposite of abundance mentality

    and from s dubner on the best advice he got

    (while fishing at 14)

    dubner: “and lo and behold, I finally caught a fish”. “It couldn’t have been more than six inches long, but at least it was a fish”. “and then I caught another and another” “They were too small to keep but it was fun catching them”

    then the guy he’s fishing with pulls up the anchor

    dubner: “where are we going? this is a great spot”

    guy: “We don’t want to keep catching these little ones. they’re not worth the time. Let’s go catch a real fish.”

    dubner: “my feelings were a little bit hurt. the fish I was catching were real fish and a lot more fun than catching nothing at all. and we had some bad luck when we got out to the deeper spots in the lake; no fish at all.”

    “Even though we returned home empty-handed, we went for the big fish. In the short run this kind of thinking might not be as much fun. But it’s the long run you should be thinking about – the big goals.”

    “if you spend all your time catching little fish, you won’t have time, or develop the technique, or the patience, to ever catch the big ones.”

    I will always go for the biggest fish

  8. And now with the html code fixed:

    I mean, the REASON some guy is a 30yo virgin is because he’s been allowed to blame everything else in the world for his problems and avoid taking action and personal responsibility and doing what he can to improve in that area of his life. He doesn’t need me to offer him that too, everyone else will.

    Yeah. 30-year-old male virgins routinely blame the entire world for their condition, and the reason is that everyone, society in general, allows them to blame everyone beside themselves. Seems legit. I’m sure it happens all the time! That must be the case, right? It’s not like men are routinely told in public discourse in no uncertain terms that whatever problems they have are solely their own fault, or that those aren’t actually real problems at all. Right?

    1. It’s not like men are routinely told in public discourse in no uncertain terms that whatever problems they have are solely their own fault, or that those aren’t actually real problems at all. Right?

      Yep.

      What’re you gonna do about it?

  9. @hollenhund
    “It’s not like men are routinely told in public discourse in no uncertain terms that whatever problems they have are solely their own fault, or that those aren’t actually real problems at all. Right?”

    I mean he’s allowed to by the people he seeks refuge/help from ie – shitty negative communities of like-minded guys like yourself who encourage his victim-complex instead of helping him actually get out of the negativity spiral.

  10. @Hollen, you are at the stage of understanding YaReally’s comments like Neo was when he learned that he was just a battery for the Matrix. I was the same when I found Heartiste, and YaReally. I thought I was just reading a bunch of “asshole tactics used by pick-up artists to bang unworthy sluts.” So I ejected for about a month, but something inside me willed me back to read more, and I’m glad I did because game helps with troubled marriages, pickup, and social interactions at work. I see things so clearly now, and I see a lifetime of mistakes I made with many social/sexual interactions.

    The denial is strong, but you will eventually come to agree.

  11. @hoellenhund2

    It’s not like men are routinely told in public discourse in no uncertain terms that whatever problems they have are solely their own fault, or that those aren’t actually real problems at all. Right?

    That’s just a cheap fallacy there. You can’t just shift the blame and claim rational victory. My point to YaReally and you was that blaming everyone/everything else rather than taking an honest and hard-look at the self is a standard condition among human beings, not just men, but women too. Introverts, or socially retarded guys generally experience social embarrassment trying to learn the things they did not learn as a kid. It is usually easy for them to blame others when they meet this kind of failure rather than looking at themselves in the mirror, getting in shape, and trying to f-ing smile and make eye contact. These social retardation conditions are only contradicted by forcing such people to actually examine their own behavior and the contribution they make to their interactions. You can’t simply avoid the issue by claiming some other social issue exists which causes this, so my point is “moot”. And please try not to do it sardonically.

    Trust me, I’m really not trying to be an ass. You are trying to avoid rather than address points made in this instance.

  12. @Rollo

    “…but I’d say most of the DeadBedroomers are where they are because they made some very grave uneducated decisions based on bad information or conditioned beliefs about the social rules they and women would be mutually using.”

    So much this.

    I’ve never experienced the deadbed phenomenon, even when I slipped into Blue Pilled hell in my first marriage. Sex was never allowed to become stagnant and routine and I always telegraphed sex constantly outside of the bedroom so that it would remain hot inside the bedroom.

    But I’ve watched untold numbers of friends and family slip into morgue-like bedrooms over decades of marriage, and it’s been my experience that there is a very small window in which to correct course in this situation.

    About a year ago I heard some close female friends discussing in horror that their 66 year old father had Viagra in his bedroom. Lol… they were mortified. I reminded them that their mom looked happy and was always singing around the house. The women felt that their dad was ” too old ” to be using medication so that he could have ( ewww..) sex.

    I confessed to them that I’ll stop fucking when I stop breathing, even if I had to tie popsicle sticks to my dick. My wife made some comment about splinters or something.

    If a man learns the nature of a woman concerning sexual attraction, this does not change because you married a particular woman imo. There is familiarity and stress to contend with, especially after kids ( notorious bedroom killers ), but 9 times out of 10 with the correct ” tools ” a man can keep interest alive. He just has to decide how important it is to him to do so. You can’t let the bedroom die for 6 months at a time.

  13. “That’s why women are always talking about the rich white CEO patriarchy, they only see the rich CEO guys, they don’t register the plumber or the garbage man in their world view.”

    bullshit.

    game has nothing to do with income level or status and the vast majority of your stuff confirms this.

    a plumber or garbage can pull super hot babes with the right frame. and lots of times the blue collar guys have way higher T than the beta follow the rules their whole lives ceos who end up beta providers while their wives fuck the plumber during the day.

    women don’t give a shit what your job is… when they’re looking for a good fuck. they only ask when they’ve already pegged you as provider.

    it’s only fuck, marry or kill. there is no fourth option.

    if your job comes up… next.

  14. Because guys like you who are looking to create a victim narrative will irrationally blow it out of proportion and miss the point instead of intelligently discussing it

    “Victim narrative”, lol. Gotta love that word. It needs to have its place next to “wrong headspace”, “negative mindset”, “false consciousness” and other jewels of sophistry inspired by idiotic New Age tenets and junk science. Yeah, pointing out the easily identifiable fact that false rape accusations do happen, result in real victimhood, and are caused by no one but the people who decide to file them, is “creating a victim narrative”. After all, it’s not like it’s even possible for men to become victims.

    It is, of course, another easily identifiable fact that there are three distinct groups of people promoting the idea that FRAs are men’s fault. Social conservatives, who argue that sleazy, dipshit men just need to stop making shameless attempts at engaging in immoral extramarital sex acts and then FRAs will disappear; feminists, who argue that real FRAs are the rarest occurence in the universe, and the rest are products of a white male sense of sexual entitlement spawned by patriarchal structures of privilege; and finally people like you, who argue that FRAs are caused by insufficient male knowledge of Game.

    But yes, to actually point out the simple fact that all of you believe in the idea of “fixing” men being the only way to tackle this problem is to “irrationally blow something out of all proportion”.

  15. one of the most negative guys who teaches pick-up with the most bleak depressing negative view of interacting with women

    You mean that guy who has now declared with absolute certainty that his ideology of “Neomasculinity” is the one correct path to take, the only hope left for the revival of Western civilization, and that anyone in the ‘sphere who rejects him is just, you know, a negative shithead with the wrong mindset?

  16. @hoellenhund2

    …other jewels of sophistry inspired by idiotic New Age tenets and junk science. … After all, it’s not like it’s even possible for men to become victims.

    It behooves you when you accuse others of sophistry to avoid using irony as a method of arguing.

  17. @fleezer
    “women don’t give a shit what your job is… ”

    lol I know. I’m talking about when women are picturing the world, like when they’re writing their retarded feminist blog posts or you ask them about what kind of men they’re attracted to or they compare themselves to men, they’re comparing themselves to the rich CEO dude not the plumber.

    @hollenhund
    “pointing out the easily identifiable fact that false rape accusations do happen, result in real victimhood, and are caused by no one but the people who decide to file them, is “creating a victim narrative””

    Again these can be prevented with proper understanding of chick psychology and how to prevent Buyer’s Remorse. Technically, if you own a dog and it poops on your couch, it’s the dog’s fault because he pooped…but it’s also kind of your fault for not house-training it to poop outside. Being angry at dogs and painting them all with the same brush and rejecting learning how to train dogs not to poop on your couch isn’t a real productive approach to life.

    Roosh knows that guys who think like you will buy into his negative outlook…that’s his market niche. That’s why his RVF forum is such a heavily moderated hugbox while Rollo lets idiots like us argue all day lol Rollo is reaching out to help men in general.

    @Rollo
    “Yep. What’re you gonna do about it?”

    Yup. Like ok, it’s unfair. Now what? Roll over and die? Run away from society? Spend your life bitching online about how unfair life is? Or learn, apply, and succeed. It’s up to you. We’ll offer tools to help if you want them. If you don’t, which you don’t, then best of luck.

  18. @Rollo

    If in that process there’s a deliberate maliciousness involved, then I may be convinced that blame is due. However, more often than not what we want to attribute to blame is often the result of ignorance.

    Never attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidity.

    1. @Yareally
      “shitty negative communities of like-minded guys like yourself who encourage his victim-complex instead of helping him actually get out of the negativity spiral.”

      It’s coming here where actuall people I’ve mostly never meant call me out of my bullshit and lame excuses and allow me to learn about my ignorance and self rigthious habits and old white knighting beliefs.

      I’ve never had that in person as a human growing up in suburban society.

  19. @Rollo : about that Telegraph article on “sexist” language at schools – I wasn’t particularly bullied at school but I was a bit, and maybe that colours my perspective but I think I disagree a bit with you on this topic.

    I don’t think you are against anti-bullying measures in general, so can you perhaps clarify more which types of measure you think are repressing freedom and which ones are positive?

    Some (male) kids will be physically or mentally vulnerable compared to others. I think they should be protected by school / teachers and that won’t necessarily mean they will grow up to be spoiled or lesser men for it.
    Even with all the Political Correctness around today, I think we are still at a point where there is a lot of crap that bullies can do to other kids that gets passed on as “boys will be boys”, that if adults were to do to one another would lead to the police getting involved.

    I should also note girls can be absolutely horrible bullies (to each other and to boys).

    1. @IAS

      School students are no longer allowed to use sexist language to bait each other in the playground, such as “man up” and “go make me a sandwich”, and head teachers are being urged to ensure that sexist language is taken as seriously as racist language.
      […]
      In response, some schools are creating volunteer squads of girls to police sexist attitudes and report back to teachers.

      Schools are also being asked by the report to appoint senior teachers as ‘gender champions’, appointing them with the task of encouraging more girls to take traditionally ‘male’ subjects such as economics, computer science and physics at GCSE and A-level and more boys to take ‘female’ subjects such as English literature, foreign languages and psychology.

      Trust me, the gendering is evidence of a ‘feminine correct’ agenda.

  20. sorry man, hate to do this to you, but I have found some infield video of why you’re not entirely correct about the importance of looks

    here we go again, asking women instead of watching what they do

    hey fish, what hooks should I use to catch you?

  21. @hoellenhund:

    It doesn’t matter why you have grown so weak that you can only curl 5 lbs. for 10. Maybe somebody strapped you to the bed, or maybe you were just too damned lazy to move. It’s irrelevant. What matters is that you can tape a one ounce tire weight or washer to the dumbbell and do something about it.

    And for goodness sake, stop with the “always” and “solely” fallacy. 99 44/100% purity is good enough even for Ivory.

  22. @Rollo
    I was wondering when someone would post the video where the super unstifled confident self-amused guy peacocking hardcore gets more positive attention than the normal guy in a scenario where girls are recorded on camera giving a self-survey as proof that looks matter lol

    Better tell the girl at the start of this vid that she shouldn’t be into Tyler:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeZ_Gu2Olwc

    Or the chick at 7:05 in this video that she should go with the tall much better looking buff dudes that try to take Tyler’s girl:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8k430ufLA&t=7m5s

    Or any of the infield footage I can post of any of the guys who aren’t built like Hulk and who are pulling girls.

    Ready to hear your explanations of how Tyler’s girl chooses Tyler over those guys. Like, let’s hear it, what do ya got? I’m legitimately open to explanations. But no one seems to ever offer explanations, just sarcasm. 😉

    If the statement is “looks are important”, then if there’s even ONE VIDEO, let alone literally hundreds of videos, of guys without great looks getting girls, the statement “looks are important” is proven wrong. IT’s that simple. You can post 50 videos of guys with good looks getting girls, but as long as there are vids of guys without looks getting girls, especially getting them OVER guys with looks, there’s a flaw in your belief system that you aren’t offering explanations for.

    You can’t just brush all the other examples that prove your statement wrong under the rug. It fascinates me that you’d be adamantly against that kind of “science” in any other area but when it comes to looks you embrace the blindspot and still have never offered up an explanation for how guys like Cupid Shmupid can exist if looks matter as much as you stress.

    Like if you at least had an explanation that congruently aligned with what we see in all these videos and what I see in the field every night out, and that simultaneously reinforces your “looks matter” belief, I could go “oh that’s an interesting theory, let’s see how we can test that infield”. But you don’t. You just ignore all the stuff I can post that contradicts that belief.

    So let’s hear it. How are the Simple Pickup guys doing it when they’re a bunch of skinny nerds when looks matter? And how are the Forever Alone guys at the MISC not getting laid?

    1. @YaReally, I was razzing you, but…

      You can post 50 videos of guys with good looks getting girls, but as long as there are vids of guys without looks getting girls, especially getting them OVER guys with looks, there’s a flaw in your belief system that you aren’t offering explanations for.

      If that’s so then the reverse would also be true, yes? Therefore I would suggest that both Looks and Game are of at least some importance in arousal and attraction.

      And not for nothing, but you keep going back to the Forever Alone Misc’ers on Body Building.com well. Do they exist? Yes, but they are in the minority even on BB.com.

      I’ve never disagreed with your assertion that Game can trump looks, I’m just saying looks are a factor. I can point to two decades of Ovulatory Shift studies from the likes of Hasselton, Gangstad and Chivers that would prove that looks are a factor in arousal and attraction. I can dig up videos that show the same.

      But, that said I’ve always said Game Works:
      http://therationalmale.com/2014/10/09/game-works/

      Hell, I put that in the second book for fuck’s sake. I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, and I understand your stress on guys learning Game before the overly concern themselves about looks, but looks are a factor.

      Alpha Tell

      This guy didn’t say a word to her, but by her subcommunication do you think she’s DTF?

  23. @Jeremy

    “Heh, I just remembered this one time, I swear this is probably the most in-the-moment confusing and humiliating beta experience of my life. Though I laugh at it now for the inhumanly bizarre thinking in my head at the time… if I had any PUA friends back then they would have never let me live it down.”

    Oh, and you think I’m gonna let you live it down? 😉

    (yes I will cause I’ve been in a similar circumstance. Twice, as it happens. Third time was the charm)

    1. @Yareally
      What Forge just posted to Jeremy is the man conversations I enjoy learning from I can’t or didn’t notice that in person in my environment growing up.
      It’s a tribal way to keep people who change and grow in check with each other.
      It’s heathy masculinity to me.

  24. heh, well, you can watch what they do in the video

    I think you mean you can’t watch what they don’t do in the video.

    In the video they ask the woman what they want in a few ways, where’s the part where they attempt to hook up?

  25. @redlight
    “here we go again, asking women instead of watching what they do. hey fish, what hooks should I use to catch you?”

    lol that’s the part that’s funny to me.

    Hey Rollo, I just found evidence that your whole Red Pill theory is wrong:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woI_UsUasY4

    According to this highly scientifically accurate interview with women, since that’s the standard of evidence for some reason now, men should buy women drinks, not use cheesy pickup lines, “ask me hey how ya doing and ask how I am”, and just be yourself instead of trying to pick someone up and bring them home.

    Now we just need some women in here to tell us that game doesn’t work so we can save everyone all this reading and teach guys to just compliment girls.

    #ROLLOSCIENCE lol c’mon man.

  26. @rollo @redlight
    “In the video they ask the woman what they want in a few ways, where’s the part where they attempt to hook up?”

    This is kind of what I meant by like, I get that you see a LOT Rollo. But you don’t see the whole thing. You’ve seen the whole thing from the perspective of a Natural earlier in your life, and you get some field reports and stuff and I’m sure you know guys who go out and fill you in on stuff. But my buddies and I and all these guys in the PUA community who don’t have looks going for us, we’re all out there and we’re all competing with these guys multiple nights a week and we’re all gathering more realistic evidence than interview montages.

    I could tell you a lot about your job, I’ve met a lot of dudes who work in promotional/marketing industries and I’ve hung with bottle models and stuff and I get the general jist of your job, I could try to guess the cost and overall process of arranging an event like that.

    But I wouldn’t in a million years claim authority over you on how bottle promotion stuff actually plays out if you said “no, that’s not how it works, it’s actually like this” because you’re the guy who’s doing it on the regular and I’m just a guy who’s seeing a lot of the picture.

    If you aren’t in clubs pulling <25yo's home to suck your dick, competing against better-looking AMOGs and stuff, you've only got part of the picture. That doesn't mean your opinion isn't useful but the guys who are going out regularly know what happens infield when shit is hitting the fan in the moment, sorry lol

  27. @rugby
    “It’s coming here where actuall people I’ve mostly never meant call me out of my bullshit and lame excuses and allow me to learn about my ignorance and self rigthious habits and old white knighting beliefs. ”

    Yup, Rollo’s comment section is excellent. This is literally the only place in the Manosphere I would send guys I want to help to. Everything else is too negative and hostile.

    The problem with how general society handles it is they’ll tell men “it’s your fault and you should’ve somehow known better” but won’t say how to fix it and just expect you to figure it out if you’re inherently born a badass alpha and if you don’t figure it out that’s okay you’re some beta chode who should be weeded out of evolution anyway.

    And a negative community will say “it’s not your fault, it’s those bitches fault, it’s everything else’s fault, it’s society’s fault too, it’s everyone’s fault but yours”

    Whereas a positive community will say “look it’s techincally your fault, but you didn’t know better and now that you do here’s how you can fix it”.

    1. @Yareally
      I got a lot of trauma from people I thought could care about my evolutionary well being.
      https://www.psychotherapy.net/interview/bessel-van-der-kolk-trauma
      Being here is a reminder of how much terror and buffers I’ve belt in a ill conceived way to protect something that I didn’t even learn how to love first which would be myself my body and my mind and my heart.

      I learned how to live vicariously though porn stars to get my sexual needs meet. I wasn’t allowing museum to accept real positive rejection as a way to
      Improve on my approach and experience in my life.

      Thank you by the way for all your post’s.

  28. @Yareally,
    What makes you think that good looking guys have no game !!?
    You make it sound like ALL good looking men got no game! !
    Or a rich guy got no game!
    Or a muscular guy got no game!
    A good looking guy with game is better than fat unattractive guy with game.
    You come across as if only ugly fat poor men got game!
    I can’t believe I have to point the obvious.
    Yes, a fat guy’s wish( with a good game) is to LOSE weight.

  29. “If that’s so then the reverse would also be true, yes?”

    No, that doesn’t make sense lol

    If you have a box of blue balls and say “these balls are all blue” and I dig through that box and find a bunch of yellow balls under there, that doesn’t mean I’m saying “these balls are all yellow” it just means that your statement “these balls are all blue” is no longer accurate. Showing me more blue balls doesn’t make those yellow balls not exist, your statement will always be inaccurate.

    “Therefore I would suggest that both Looks and Game are of at least some importance in arousal and attraction.”

    Looks are about as important as any other tool in the Game toolbox. Remove looks and you can make up for it with preselection, social proof, dominance, tonality, DHV, teasing, negs, dread game, etc etc

    Game is the toolbox, looks are simply another miscellaneous tool that adds a couple points but makes no real significant difference just like you don’t NEED to use negs or NEED to have social proof.

    “And not for nothing, but you keep going back to the Forever Alone Misc’ers on Body Building.com well. Do they exist? Yes, but they are in the minority even on BB.com.”

    It doesn’t matter if they’re the minority. Them existing means that looking like Hulk doesn’t mean you’re getting attraction. Whereas Game always gets attraction. Game and looks are not on the same level.

    “I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, and I understand your stress on guys learning Game before the overly concern themselves about looks, but looks are a factor.”

    They’re a very minor factor that shouldn’t be elevated to an equivalent status as Game. I don’t know how many non-jacked newbies you’ve helped learn to pick up women but the majority of them will very happily jump on the bandwagon of “I’ll just hit the gym tonight and get more jacked instead of going out, because looks matter” because guys give looks too much credit when those guys would be getting laid if they just went out and worked on their game.

    And I don’t know how many good-looking jacked newbies you’ve watched chode out from approaching a girl or gave up a girl because another guy in the room was slighlty better looking or more built than them, but you’d be surprised how often it happens because that guy thinks “well looks are as good as game and that guy has better looks so oh well”.

    And I don’t know how many newbies you’ve seen smiling ear to ear the first time they take a hot girl off a better looking AMOG or keep their girl when a better looking AMOG tries to take her, but it’s a pretty awesome sight that changes their entire perspective lol

    Trust the guys who are going out regularly and facing this stuff head-on. Looks are pretty much nothing unless, as I’ve said, you’re all just standing there or they’re looking at photos. Express your personality and run proper game and looks fly out the window. A guy is infinitely better off sharpening his game over hitting the gym.

    “This guy didn’t say a word to her, but by her subcommunication do you think she’s DTF?”

    If any of those other guys was talking to her and spiking her emotions she wouldn’t notice that guy. And if that guy executes a bunch of weak anti-game shit to her (weak tonality, indecisiveness, no dominance, asexuality, insecurity, seeking rapport, failing tests, etc) she won’t fuck him.

    Tons of Keys to the VIP eps have good looking dudes who have massive attraction off the open and the guys drop the ball with their weak game and turn the girls off. You can see this any night out infield lol Throw hot girls at random good-looking guys and a lot of them will fuck it up just like that vid I linked before.

    1. When you get IOIs (eye contact, body language, etc.) from a woman you haven’t spoken to when you first enter a room there is something about your looks that means they are important to women.

      Just like this girl in the GIF, no words, just eye contact and body language that indicates sexual cues. I agree that if the guy opens his mouth and fucks it up that interest will be killed, but looks DO trigger interest in a way that places them above just being a tool in a tool box. You don’t get to put your physique away like some technique you experiment with in Game. You wear it all the time, so either it is a benefit to your overall Game or it is a deficit you must overcome with Game.

      The first thing men report when they get into even marginally better shape, to say nothing of really great shape, is the amount of expressed sexual attraction they get from women. You will get attention when you are in better shape; what you do with that when it comes time to capitalize on it is a question of Game. So yes, that likely where a lot of Misc’ers screw themselves up, but they do get more IOI and attraction behaviors directed towards them as a result of getting themselves in better shape.

      So yes, Game is the most important aspect in attraction, but Looks are far more important than to be relegated to being a Game tool.

  30. @Yareally,
    I have a credibility issue with all field videos, a short fat guy showing his success only with the one he picked up, what about the clips of him being ignored by 10 other women!

  31. @keyser Soze
    “What makes you think that good looking guys have no game !!?”

    I’ve never said that. But it’s very common for good looking guys to not have game because they’re bought into the idea that their looks will make up for it. And they will, as long as there’s no obstacles, no interference, no other guys with game coming into their set, and the girl makes the moves. But in practice a lot of those guys will fuck it up hardcore lol

    “You make it sound like ALL good looking men got no game!”

    I’ve never said that.

    “Or a rich guy got no game!”

    Again, a guy with money will often try to rely on the money instead of bother to learn game. Not to mention the hours he had to work to earn that money. It doesn’t mean no rich guys have game, but a significant majority of them don’t.

    “Or a muscular guy got no game!”

    Same deal, they CAN have game, but those 2 hours in the gym followed by a good night’s sleep is a night they’re not out talking to girls.

    “A good looking guy with game is better than fat unattractive guy with game.”

    My point is that a good looking guy with game is a lot more rare than most people think or than Hollywood and social conditioning would have you believe.

    “You come across as if only ugly fat poor men got game!”

    I’ve never said that. But ugly fat poor men have more incentive to learn tight game. That’s why Tyler rapes everyone, because he’s an ugly little troll and he knows if he wants to take girls off those good looking guys (who as I’ve said will get laid if nobody interferes and there’s no obstacles etc), having tight game will do it.

    “Yes, a fat guy’s wish( with a good game) is to LOSE weight.”

    You’d be surprised lol A lot of guys getting laid don’t care about their weight because they’re getting laid so their brain goes “whatever I’m clearly doing fine fuck the gym I’ll call Vanessa over and get my horizontal cardio”

    “I have a credibility issue with all field videos, a short fat guy showing his success only with the one he picked up, what about the clips of him being ignored by 10 other women!”

    So go out and watch it happen yourself. I only link the videos because I can’t just push you all into nightclubs every night for a year and point out all the dynamics in action. I think the videos are all silly in general, like I think it’s silly that we even have to rely on videos because guys aren’t going out and trying to pull <25yo's to suck their dick and are just projecting theories and ideas and trying to discredit the thousands of hours of infield pickup footage on the net from hundreds of different individuals and companies some with no financial incentive at all.

    But here we are on the internet comparing interviews asking fish how to catch them lol

    @rugby
    Happy to have helped! Society tells us that it's selfish to put yourself and your needs and your well being first, but it's OKAY to be selfish. It's GOOD to be selfish sometimes. No one else is going to fix you, but we can all help you fix yourself. 🙂

  32. looks are a factor

    agreed, but it is the comprehensive look, that is does he lift, how he holds himself, is he handsome. Look at his intensity, he could be dressed in all pink instead of white, and it would still say “I’m a man”. Imagine the same face, same body, and he’s picking his nose.

    on r/TheRedPill we had a couple of days ago, “Looks Are Everything” (only 76% upvoted). The poster then backtracked that into

    Men need to realize that “looks are everything” is shorthand for “looks are extremely damn important”, and not “looks are literally the only thing that matters in the world and you cannot succeed without them”.

    However the highest rated comment says, in part:

    “Looks” is a huge ass category. Height is one component, as is facial symmetry and musculature. But, don’t fall into the trap of thinking “BIG MUSCLES YAY!” because her subconscious can’t tell the difference between a gym bro and someone who does modest exercise and is healthy. “Jacked / Ripped / ect..” is all for impressing other guys or feeding your own self confidence, it has very little effect on the female. Muscles are nice, but there is a point you arrive at where the effect just stops, that point is usually immediately after the “noob gains”.

    The #1 biggest factor in attraction is status. Status is absolute king in the mating market, everything comes from it. Physical appearance is just a form of status. “Seduction Game” is just bullshiting a females subconscious into perceiving you as higher status then you were otherwise. Clothing and grooming is just a way to show off status. How other people talk to you is status, if you walk into a room do people notice you? Do people in your social group defer to you when deciding what to do? This type of leadership status is really important. Another source of status is ability. The ability to “do shit”. Being a “man of action” so to speak, where you are capable of getting what you want, and she can see it.

    I like the word play of “Looks is a huge ass”. Now status is another thing, you can’t go “status is everything” either. The guy in the video, what is he, just a male cheerleader?

    1. I have seen guys overcome a looks deficit with Game often enough to know that it’s the most important element of attraction.

      I’ve seen a fat, somewhat hairy, fry cook get with a woman so sexy most guys would jerk off to her online through nothing but his very commanding personality. I know that this chick gave up anal to the guy too.

      My best friend Ray is a 5′ 6″ Filipino who regularly got with a 5′ 11″ blonde he turned into a fuck friend.

      I know Game and mental state is vital to men’s success with women, I’ve seen it so many times on promos it became part of the reason I started writing back in 2011. However, looks are the paradigm in which Game must operate. Those two examples are only extraordinary because the operative environment is one in which Looks set the baseline. As I said in the prior thread, women don’t masturbate to the fantasy of a guy who’s funny and a great conversationalist, they get off on the image of Chris Hemsworth.

      Looks are either a boon or a handicap. Game can absolutely emphasize that boon or overcome that handicap.

      Just like you were saying, Tyler is this ginger schlub who by all accounts shouldn’t be getting laid with the caliber of women he reportedly does; why is that incredible?

      It’s remarkable because looks ARE an important factor in attraction. If they weren’t no one would blink an eye over Tyler getting with an HB9 using good Game.

  33. Yareally,

    “Or a muscular guy got no game!”

    Same deal, they CAN have game, but those 2 hours in the gym followed by a good night’s sleep is a night they’re not out talking to girls.

    Lol, what kind of logic was that?!

  34. Oh shit…. I have a ” Dad Bod “….fuck….

    Okay, my dad bod is just around my waist, but still ( *weepy face* ).

    Lmao.

    At least I’m a handsome fucker. : )

    At 20-40 I wouldn’t have a problem whipping off my shirt in front of strange women. That was never my M.O., but it wasn’t on my ” to do ” list either.

    I worked out back then to stay strong. I had kind of a big mouth, so I needed to be strong enough to get myself out of trouble.

    From 45-54 I work out to stay alive and to hold on to some of the strength that is rapidly trying to flee my presence.

    I had a cousin growing up, that was a bodybuilding freak. Steroided to the max. He used to walk down the main avenue in our city constantly without a shirt. Women reacted much like the chicks in the Hulk video. In my experience all of that ” Oooooo’s ” and ” Ahhhhh’s ” are a very temporary reaction. Those muscles evoke an emotional reaction. If ” hulk ” can’t manage much more than ” Uhhh, hello…me…hulk “, his potential will go to waste for the most part.

    Chicks fantasize about giant muscles. You aren’t her fantasy, your muscles are. Don’t get it twisted.

    They like pecs that aren’t bigger than the average breast, and they LOVE abs.

    I could pull some chicks with my ” Dad Bod “, but my shirt stays on until it’s time for sex. Haha ha haaaa. Not that I’m a slob, but girls used to gasp when I was 20 ish and the shirt came off. I just don’t want to hear the silence at 54.

    Lol…

    Good thing I have zero interest in 20 something chicks or it could be rough out in the pussy world….or not.

    And not to come off as butt-hurt, but the chicks in that video demonstrate the fucked up lopsidedness created by the FI. Average and below average chicks turning their noses up at average guys. That shit is hilarious. IRL ole Dad-Bod could game these hoes.

    So the lesson is, do not be ” average “.

    … Oh, and fuck these average hoes whenever humanly possible. Just ” because “.

  35. “Okay, my dad bod is just around my waist . . .”

    Well, in terms of mortality risk that’s the absolutely worst situation, so you’ve got that going for you.

  36. @Rollo
    “When you get IOIs (eye contact, body language, etc.) from a woman you haven’t spoken to when you first enter a room there is something about your looks that means they are important to women.”

    This is what I’m talking about. That’s where you end your conclusions. “He got an ioi so that’s basically sex.” There are a ton of ways he can fuck that ioi up without understanding game and there are a ton of ways you can get iois without looks. End result is that looks are irrelevant.

    “but looks DO trigger interest in a way that places them above just being a tool in a tool box”

    Like I’ve said, if you’re running passive game where no one interferes and the girl makes the moves and there’s no obstacles, ya, looks will get you laid.

    As soon as you bring in ANY factors besides “look at this guy, would you fuck him based on his looks yes or no?” they become irrelevant.

    Having a BMW will get you looks. Is having a BMW as important as hitting the gym to you? If not, why not? Why not promote that every man should buy a BMW? It doesn’t matter if a ferrari will also get him looks or if a guy on a moped can get laid, a BMW gives you iois so men should get BMWs. That’s the logic being promoted lol

    “The first thing men report when they get into even marginally better shape, to say nothing of really great shape, is the amount of expressed sexual attraction they get from women.”

    The first thing men report when they get a new shirt or new haircut or a new car is the amount of expressed sexual attraction they get from women. Is it that those things are inherently sexy? Or that getting those things boosts the guy’s opinion of himself (since he’s subscribed to society’s value system that tells him those things increase his value) and his subcommunications are more solid?

    “You will get attention when you are in better shape;”

    Attention is great, as long as no one interferes, there’s no obstacles, you don’t say or do anything to fuck it up, etc etc. They shouldn’t be a focus or a worry and don’t carry anywhere near the weight that having solid game carries.

    “what you do with that when it comes time to capitalize on it is a question of Game.”

    Then you agree that in the goal of “actually having sex with women”, not “having positive attention from women”, it comes down to game not looks. Getting positive attention is not getting laid.

    Getting a guy to focus on his looks will get him lots of positive attention. And when he still can’t get his dick wet and joins the Forever Aloners or the rich good-looking guys who take RSD bootcamps or stand on death row at the bar every night, he’ll say “I don’t get it, I hit the gym and got jacked” and then you’ll have to tell him “oh well, it kind of comes down to game…so uhh sorry to throw you off like that and waste all that time whoops, now that you’re jacked you’re going to have to go learn game so you can turn that positive attention into actually sticking your dick inside something.”

    I’m just trying to save guys that time and frustration that sending them down the looks path can lead to.

    “So yes, that likely where a lot of Misc’ers screw themselves up, but they do get more IOI and attraction behaviors directed towards them as a result of getting themselves in better shape.”

    Is the goal of pickup to get “positive attention and iois”, or “get your dick inside vaginas”? I suspect we both have different goals for men and that might be where the disconnect is lol

    I have a buddy who’s super happy if he has a lot of positive attention from girls in a night. Because he has an LTR and has LTR sex lined up the next night. But for a single guy that positive attention doesn’t mean jack shit if it doesn’t translate into pussy. In fact it can make shit even worse because it’s like “I don’t get it, I had all this positive attention and I STILL can’t get laid!!! I must be a total fuck up :(”

    Getting positive attention does not equal getting pussy. Converting positive attention to pussy takes game. So focus on learning game because you can generate positive attention through a dozen other faster easier ways like social proof, preselection, DHV’ing, leadership of men, etc etc etc

    “So yes, Game is the most important aspect in attraction, but Looks are far more important than to be relegated to being a Game tool.”

    Looks are far more important for getting positive attention, but for getting laid they don’t really matter.

    @keyser Soze
    “Lol, what kind of logic was that?!”

    Math.

    If you have 24 hours in a day, sleep for 8 that leaves 16. If you spend 10 of those working a very intense job because you want to be a rich CEO (looks, money, game!), you’ve got 6 left. If you spend 2 of those hitting the gym, you’ve got 4 left. You could go talk to girls for 4 hours but odds are after 10 hours of work and 2 hours at the gym you’re going to be too exhausted so you’re going to surf the net and go to sleep.

    Some other guy has 24 hours in his day, sleeps for 8 so that leaves 16. He works a normal job for 8 hours because he doesn’t care about being a rich CEO and has 8 hours left. He doesn’t care about the gym and hasn’t worn himself out so he goes out with buddies and socializes for 6 hours, chatting up girls and sharpening his social skills.

    In a week that rich jacked CEO has talked to a handful of girls at best, probably some chick at the office and maybe the front-desk girl at the gym (remember the gym is his sanctuary where he doesn’t hit on girls, MONK MODE BRAH!!) and he doesn’t try to fuck those girls because it would make his work/gym life awkward. He turns down a night out with his buddies because hey drinking is carbs. If he goes out for a cheat night, he leaves early ’cause he needs his sleep. But lets say he DOES chat up some girls on his night out, why not. He’s getting positive attention right? Maybe he gets into a few conversations. Gets a shit-test or two and fails and goes home alone.

    In that same week that lazy bum learning game has gone out 5 or 6 nights, x6 hours a night, and easily been in dozens of interactions with different girls, guys, strangers, social situations, broken out of his comfort zone, etc etc.

    When those two guys are 35 the rich jacked CEO can retire and have all the free time in the world…except he finds out “shit, I gotta learn game now” The other guy has to work and focus on his career but he’s had like 15 years of experience seducing women and sharpening his social skills.

    Personally I’d rather men become the latter instead of the former. ’cause I see the former out at the bars all the time, wondering why buying rounds of shots for girls isn’t magically getting them and their weak game laid (unless they get the girl wasted enough lol it’s not a big coincidence a lot of the rich dudes offer booze/drug bribes to get girls to come to their afterparty).

  37. BUT, there are two guys that make posts like hollenhund: guys who are just frustrated and confused and are looking for answers/help. Those guys can be taken under your wing and helped. But the other guys are the type who have already decided they know how the world works and shut their mind off to everything and that’s why they reject infield footage as a global conspiracy of paid models in every video and make excuses for stuff they can’t explain and brush over points when I say “ok explain how the MISC Forever Aloners exist” etc, because it doesn’t fit their narrative they’ve constructed (or picked up from a negative community) and they reject it all. You can see that happening in this very thread.

    They ENJOY the negative world-view they have, that’s why they don’t try to fix it. They love it, the same way a group of goth kids will all feed off eachother’s negativity about how shitty life is. Their brain wants more of what it’s used to.

    This is an inaccurate representation. I, and presumably HH, don’t doubt the validity of your experiences or the in-field videos: that’s besides the point. I don’t enjoy a negative viewpoint: I actually hold a generally positive viewpoint and that’s also besides the point.

    My social circle consists mostly of relatively Beta guys that do not have the capacity or wherewithal to invest their weekday nights in sarging and do not have an interest sleeping on blow-up mattresses in people’s closets. If that’s the price of Good Game, the price is too high, and if Good Game has become a requirement for decent treatment from women, then women have too much social, economic, and political power.

    That’s a normative statement, but I hold that truth to be self-evident. We created this society in order to banish the days of sleeping in broom-closets: it’s why Harry Potter’s aunt and uncle are seen as negligent parents, despite providing an objectively superior lifestyle to that of your sacrificing RSD fellows.

    You are suggesting to my Beta comrades that they simply have negative mindsets that women treat them like disposable shit. This is entirely inaccurate. Men like my Beta friends and Hollenhund are objectively the most educated, most tolerant, most behaved, most productive men in the history of the planet.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care.

    This is why I say there is a lot of Missing Fanfare. I don’t really want to link to my blog, but here’s a thought: http://adefinitebetaguy.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-missing-fanfare.html Men of our generation should be lionized as paragons of virtue. Humanity has been striving for exactly this point for freakin’ MILLENIA.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care.

    These men handicap themselves willingly in order to create “safe spaces” for women, they subject themselves to competition, they don’t complain when the schools essentially screw them over.

    Hypergamy still doesn’t care.

    My point isn’t that men can improve their lives via Game and Red Pill principles. Hell I just learned a bit of it and jumped up to my desired goal really damn quick. I also agree that a lot of introverted guys are screwing themselves over in conversation. Hell, I actually call myself out on this with my wife here: http://adefinitebetaguy.blogspot.com/2015/05/no-i-dont-want-to-hear-about-your-day.html

    So I get where you are coming from, I really do.

    But Jesus Freaking Christ, I can look at the women and see the objectively poor social skills and the plain inability to talk about anything that doesn’t bore the shit out of most men (UNLESS HE’S HAWWWWTTTTT!) and that’s not on Men, and yes Men can improve and should improve, but that’s not Men’s “fucked up brain” that’s fucked up women.

    Hell, you mentioned some guy who can just talk about himself endlessly. As a good thing! He can talk to himself in a mirror! Literally! Do I honestly have to point out why it’s insane that’s become a VIRTUE?

  38. kfg

    ” Well, in terms of mortality risk that’s the absolutely worst situation, so you’ve got that going for you.”

    I’m not as ” flubbery ” as the dude in the video, it’s just that my abs are only visible in certain light at certain angles…during full moons.

    I’ve lost enough family members and read enough studies to understand the risks.

  39. “Men of our generation should be lionized as paragons of virtue. Humanity has been striving for exactly this point for freakin’ MILLENIA.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care.”

    Humanity isn’t simply men.

  40. @Rollo
    “Those two examples are only extraordinary because the operative environment is one in which Looks set the baseline.”

    My argument is that those two examples are NOT extraordinary if you’re going out multiple nights a week and paying attention. Hollywood and social conditioning and guys who don’t go out regularly will convince people that those examples are extraordinary but they’re not. That’s why I say your sampling is limited.

    “As I said in the prior thread, women don’t masturbate to the fantasy of a guy who’s funny and a great conversationalist, they get off on the image of Chris Hemsworth.”

    Ya, I fantasize about sticking my dick in Angelina Jolie in her prime but I’ll happily fuck a girl who doesn’t look like her. Who cares what they get off to? This is fluff. Do you seriously think every girl is only fucking her dream guy and if she isn’t fucking Brad Pitt she isn’t enjoying the sex and isn’t actually into the guy because he’s not what she pictured in her fantasies? What even is this logic lol

    I’m sure no one dreams of eating at McDonald’s but if you wave some delicious McD’s fries in front of someone they’ll scarf them down with a smile on their face.

    “Just like you were saying, Tyler is this ginger schlub who by all accounts shouldn’t be getting laid with the caliber of women he reportedly does; why is that incredible?”

    It’s NOT incredible. To guys like myself who go out. But I know it’s incredible to guys who believe in the looks matter paradigm you’re promoting so I use it as an example of “holy shit look at this” because I know they can’t explain it and it fucks with what they thought when they see a girl turn down tall jacked jocks for ugly Tyler.

    I, and guys who go out and do pickup regularly, look at a guy like Tyler and see his subcomms and think “obviously this guy would get laid, that’s no surprise at all”. That’s almost the in-joke of the whole infield footage thing, is that as PUAs we know this is nothing special or extraordinary if you go out regularly and learn game and compete with better looking dudes to get your dick in pussy instead of for passive “positive attention”. But we all know it blows the “normal people”s minds and gets them to sign up for bootcamps etc.

    Tyler would be the first to tell you he isn’t even doing anything special, it’s just normal that guys with good game get attraction.

    The socially conditioned belief that looks matter is what makes these clips “extraordinary” even though I can link hundreds of them…if enough guys went out and recorded infield footage and I could link you 3 billion examples of it you’d still go “nope those are just outliers sorry”.

    “It’s remarkable because looks ARE an important factor in attraction. If they weren’t no one would blink an eye over Tyler getting with an HB9 using good Game.”

    My argument is that the only people who blink an eye are the people who aren’t going out and competing with better-looking guys for sticking their dick inside girls lol

    That’s why I keep saying go out go out go out. Because all of this stuff is out there. If you go out regularly you’ll see ugly/average guys with game pull all the time, it’s not a big deal at all. It’s only a big deal if you aren’t going out and subscribe to the idea that looks matter. And Tyler knows that, that’s why he promotes his company with the footage lol

  41. @A Definite Beta Guy
    “I can look at the women and see the objectively poor social skills”

    Why do you expect women to have good social skills?

    Seriously. That’s not a sarcastic question.

    What incentive in society is there for women to have good social skills, and in a society where men chase women based primarily on their looks, in what way does having good social skills increase their chance of landing a baby from an alpha?

    There’s no incentive and no benefit. As men we have incentive and benefit to have good social skills, but why would women have them anymore than a dog would learn to do your taxes?

    SO again: why do you expect them to have good social skills? They aren’t living up to your expectation, but your expectation is based on the same misguided notion that expecting a dog to do your taxes is based on. Are you disappointed in a dog when he can’t do your taxes? No, because it’s silly to expect that of him.

    Your expectation of them to have good social skills is based in the idea that women are basically men with tits and should bring the same value to the table in terms of social skills that a man is required to bring.

    “and the plain inability to talk about anything that doesn’t bore the shit out of most men””

    Why do you expect them to be able to talk about stuff that doesn’t bore the shit out of most men? Will not being able to talk about interesting shit make the horny alpha dude NOT want to fuck an HB10? So why WOULD she be able to talk about shit that isn’t boring?

    Your expectation of her to talk about shit that isn’t boring is based in the idea that women are basically men with tits and should bring the same value to the table in terms of being able to talk about interesting shit that a man is required to bring.

    Understand what I’m saying? Women are not failing, you are setting standards for them that they were never capable of or incentivized to achieve.

    It’s not your fault, this was socially conditioned into you. It’s the same mechanic behind why feminists are surprised women aren’t all CEOs and STEM classes aren’t overflowing with women…they were brought up to believe that women wanted something they don’t actually want or have reason to want and now they’re surprised that women aren’t achieving that thing they never had the interest or ability to achieve in the first place.

  42. Yareally,

    “Math.

    If you have 24 hours in a day, sleep for 8 that leaves 16. If you spend 10 of those working a very intense job because you want to be a rich CEO (looks, money, game!), you’ve got 6 left. If you spend 2 of those hitting the gym, you’ve got 4 left. You could go talk to girls for 4 hours but odds are after 10 hours of work and 2 hours at the gym you’re going to be too exhausted so you’re going to surf the net and go to sleep.”

    That CEO is fucking his secretary (and other sluts at work ,he doesn’t need to go clubbing) .

    Don’t get me wrong Yareally, I still think you do a great service to guys by teaching game, but, looks with game does a much better results with HB9/10s.

  43. “I’m not as ” flubbery ” as the dude in the video, it’s just that my abs are only visible in certain light at certain angles…during full moons.”

    So on the lean side of ideal then, actually. Mortality risk doesn’t follow fashion.

    Bearing in mind that the medical field counts dying in a motorcyle race at 90 as a “loss,” but dying at 100 having spent the last 15 years hooked up to tubes as a “win.”

  44. @keyser Soze
    “That CEO is fucking his secretary (and other sluts at work ,he doesn’t need to go clubbing) .”

    Yes. In the movies and on Mad Men he is. In reality he’s getting a lot of positive attention from those chicks but fucking them is a lawsuit that will tank his company.

    “looks with game does a much better results with HB9/10s.”

    Looks with game is super. But guys with both are incredibly rare. I’ve met ONE guy with looks AND crazy solid game. Dude had iois everywhere he went and slaughtered pussy left and right (but if I was 0.0001% more on than him on a night out, I could take girls off him lol ’cause as a Natural he had great game but still had blindspots that Naturals have with state management and relying on approach invites and not really consciously understanding social proof etc).

    And I’m LOOKING for guys with looks and game when I’m out because they are a blast to go sarge with. But they’re rare. There are a whole lot of good-looking guys who TALK a big game though lol You can go out or you can watch Keys to the VIP and compare how the guys talk in their profile about their game and how they actually do once they hit the club and have to deal with any kind of obstacles.

  45. Whoops that last paragraph should read “There are a whole lot of good-looking guys who TALK a big game and get positive attention when they go out though lol”

  46. As a CEO let me tell you,

    Don’t ever fuck someone on the payroll. Holy shit that is a bad idea.

    You know how much fucking money I spend every year in anti sexual harassment training? Lawyers?

    Guys fucking their secretary’s only happens in the movies.

    A chick that fucks her boss is after something, and it ain’t sex.

    Sales girls that aren’t on the payroll however, are free game.

  47. @CaveClown
    “Don’t ever fuck someone on the payroll. Holy shit that is a bad idea.”

    lol like I say, it looks AWESOME on Mad Men. But I deal with reality, not socially conditioned fantasy. And in reality Mad Men is a fantasy lol

    The non-payroll girls these days are risky too, with how social media witch-hunting has gone wild. Just look at any of the celebs getting their “asleep after fucking her” selfies posted or text/Tinder/etc convos posted by chicks seeking attention.

    I use a fake name and career at the bar, and I’m not even an important guy lol

    1. @Yareally
      “I use a fake name and career at the bar, and I’m not even an important guy lol”

      How has it come to this…

      Your important here man.

  48. l am such an utter social fucking retard. My only choice right now is to lower my standards or not get laid. My frustration and bitterness is making it impossible to progress, but I have got to get laid. The tension between those two forces is absolutely shredding me psychologically.

    The problem with Game is that a lot of us that aren’t Greek Gods are also social spergtards unable to get over the thirst, unable to get past the old failures and frustration, and unable to make any progress socially. It’s fucking soul-draining to know “Hey you’re going to have to go out there hundreds or thousands more times and keep failing” when you just want to get fucking laid tonight.

    This shit is such a beat down. I’m truly psychologically and physically exhausted from pushing myself lately, and I’m no closer to any of my goals. It’s disheartening.

  49. @keyser Soze
    “Oh yeah, there are lots of CEO like Bill Clinton who didn’t care.”

    And how’d that work out lol And how would it work for any guy with less status than the POTUS?

    @Sun Wukong
    “The problem with Game is that a lot of us that aren’t Greek Gods are also social spergtards unable to get over the thirst, unable to get past the old failures and frustration, and unable to make any progress socially.”

    All good man, we all hit that spot. Even guys good at pickup go through spells of that shit.

    But remember we can’t help you without Field Reports. Field Reports are where we can spot patterns and sticking points that you can’t see because you’re too close to the source or don’t have the reference experiences to see them yet. When we can see patterns in your Field Reports we can say “hey man, it looks like you’re doing this when you should be doing this other thing instead and try adding a bit of this new thing in there too, let us know how that goes!” and help shorten your progress.

    Check Scray’s FR’s on my archive, he posted Field Reports every couple months (I recommend as often as possible especially if you’re in the middle of a plateau or frustrating situation…if things are going well there’s not much need to throw up FRs unless you’re just looking for an edge lol) and I helped break them down:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/scray/2012/11/

    His first post (he’s a shorty too btw, can’t remember how tall like 5’6″ or something?):

    “I’m getting into a space where it’s starting to feel hopeless. I recently started sarging, and my approach count is still low—a solid 30….but, as anyone can guess, the success rate thus far is zero. Rejection now feels like I have zero value to these people as a man, and while I’m thankful for the red pill…it still hits hard.

    Reading stories like the above just makes me more depressed. The impression is that unless you are alpha, either you will get completely shut out of the sexual marketplace or marry a lying slut. It’s also difficult to remain a non-misogynist, as more and more topics discussed on this blog are confirmed by experience—-mainly the zero-accountability, value-sucking existence women are allowed to live, even undesirable women.”

    A year later:

    “And the fact that I’m saying this from a perspective of ‘ you -have- to be better than, do this’ is obvious that I haven’t really internalized this level yet. I’m just working toward it. I’ve gotten to a place where I’m a cool guy who seems well-liked — that’s new. I like it. I feel like I’m a part of the world. The next jump is to learn how to conquer the world. /w3rd”

    And a year after that:

    ” never thought it would happen to me but it’s happening. Just the natural slow slide into not giving a shit. I guess you just start noticing patterns after doing this for awhile.

    Now I’m just naturally chill and aloof with my fbs— mainly because I’m like “what, are we going to embark on some attempt at disneyland relationship time? the same shit ends up happening eventually and there’s no reason for me to do that unless I literally think she’s such a great and unique person worth tying myself down to.” Never thought I’d say it, but it’s true.

    I hadn’t talked to one of them for like 3 weeks. She’s been texting me but I haven’t texted back. The last time I talked to her, she was just kind of irrational and annoying. Nothing that really pissed me off. But when you’re in a place of abundance, you just think ‘oh yeah the last time I talked to them, they were annoying, not worth the time tonight.’ Enough time passes to where ‘okay I don’t have anything to do tonight and that was a long time ago, I guess I can give this a whirl.’ And then, without even realizing it, you have executed the soft Next.

    Fucking blew my mind.

    Also….
    sometimes I believe that criticisms can be compliments. For example, at a recent gathering someone told me that I wasn’t fun anymore or that I used to be more fun and that I looked nice.

    I just interpreted that to mean that they thought I was more attractive than before and not a dancing monkey and that they were adjusting.

    I was right. They tried to make out with me at the end of the night (I didn’t go for it…she was like a 5.5).”

    Even from his writing style you can tell his life/results changed. If I remember right his first Field Report he was like just standing awkwardly in front of girls on the dance floor trying to say words and they turned their backs on him with a sneer lol

    But to help we need to know what you’re doing out there, and to know what you’re doing out there we need play by play Field Reports of your interactions. You got a big community of dudes here who all want you to succeed yo, take advantage of ’em 🙂

    Just remember to keep it anonymous and follow my FR tips here:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/2015/10/#comment-rationalmale-122435

  50. @YaReally

    No FRs because there were no approaches this weekend. No approaches because I still can’t find a place enough enough cute, young chicks to be worth trying. Just find myself out with friends who want to hang around mid 30s married chicks or sausagefests.

    Guess it really doesn’t matter though. Right now I’m just so incredibly negative it’s dripping off every interaction so I just stay clammed up. Keeps me from bringing more violence my direction at least. Tempted to just goad somebody in to a fight just to beat the frustration in to someone else’s face. Not a good mentality, not going to do anything good for me.

    I’m really not quite sure how to get out of this funk, but approaching while I’m in it is just going to be a negative feedback loop.

  51. @yareally,
    I think it is dangerous selling “You can have it all with good game” to short/fat/unattractive guys, by telling them game is better than improving their looks.
    Or Tony Robins videos, everybody can get rich!.

    Don’t you think, it is like, “fat acceptance” ?

  52. Why do you expect women to have good social skills?

    Seriously. That’s not a sarcastic question.

    What incentive in society is there for women to have good social skills

    These are not pertinent questions. They are besides the point.

    You are misunderstanding what I am saying. These statement are innacurate:

    As men we have incentive and benefit to have good social skills

    This is inaccurate. We wouldn’t be having this conversation otherwise.

    Your expectation of her to talk about shit that isn’t boring is based in the idea that women are basically men with tits

    This is inaccurate.

    should bring the same value to the table in terms of social skills that a man is required to bring.

    This is inaccurate.

    It’s not your fault, this was socially conditioned into you

    This is inaccurate.

    This is how far off you are:

    It’s the same mechanic behind why feminists are surprised women aren’t all CEOs and STEM classes aren’t overflowing with women…they were brought up to believe that women wanted something they don’t actually want or have reason to want and now they’re surprised that women aren’t achieving that thing they never had the interest or ability to achieve in the first place.

    Yesterday, my 2 year old niece told me she wants to be Belle, because she has the prettiest shoes out of all the Disney Princesses.
    Do I really sound like the guy buying into the equalitarian fantasies?

    Women are not failing, you are setting standards for them that they were never capable of or incentivized to achieve.

    Speaking of bad attitudes, this statement is incorrect on its own merits, it is not pertinent to the point of this post, and it’s not pertinent to my point anyways.
    The fact that women are not incentivized correctly does not mean they are not failing. See: Teacher’s Unions. I don’t give a damn they are not “incentivized,” they are failing to teach my kids. FAIL. It means, NOT DOING THE JOB.
    Women have a social JOB to do. This is that “complementing” we’re talking about: women have a JOB. This is SELF-EVIDENT. I feel no need to argue on this blog that women have a job to do, and I feel no need to argue that, yes, women can fail that job, especially if they are not incentivized to do it.

    This isn’t asking my dog to do taxes, this are basic social skills that are synergistic with women’s biological make-up and have been the expectation of women in all functioning societies.

    I know, you’re going to ask “what’s the point?” Or “What are you going to do?” Or something about LARP’ing.

    That’s still besides the point. The point is:

    I was about to say the same. I’m less inclined to find “fault” or place blame than I am to look at what’s contributed to the conditions of men and women.

    You are simply glossing over the agency of women and the character change in the last few decades. If you don’t care about that, fine, but that doesn’t make it irrelevant.

    It certainly isn’t irrelevant to the discussion of how to parent effectively as a Red Pill aware man.

    BTW, what are you going to do if Bad Game gets criminalized? Just tell men not to do Bad Game? Because that contradicts experimenting and learning and failing in order to develop Good Game.

  53. @Sun Wukong
    “No FRs because there were no approaches this weekend. No approaches because I still can’t find a place enough enough cute, young chicks to be worth trying.”

    If you want to try to hack the bar scene a bit:

    Something to give a try would be googling your city’s industry night venue (there’s always one) and hitting that up and just focusing on just chatting and shooting the shit with the dudes there. If you want to get social proof in a city fast, being social with guys on industry night is one of the fastest ways. Don’t even focus on the waitress chicks that’ll be there (’cause the guys will probably be protecting them if you don’t have group approval first and once you have group approval the chicks will likely be curious about you lol). Expect a cliquish but friendly crowd (they’re service industry so it’s their job to be social) but just focus on being outgoing with the guys and they should accept you.

    Do that 2 or 3 weeks in a row and you should have a handful of friendly faces around the bars there. Then at least when you’re going to these shitty venues you’ve got some social proof with the high-value people there. Could make things easier and make girls give you less shit and might get you a shot with some waitresses.

    Any luck looking into daygame? Bookstores, campuses, libraries, parks, malls, there’s gotta be something around there with some decent chicks.

    “I’m really not quite sure how to get out of this funk, but approaching while I’m in it is just going to be a negative feedback loop.”

    Masturbate furiously for a week? lol kiddingnotkidding

  54. @Sun: “Tempted to just goad somebody in to a fight just to beat the frustration in to someone else’s face.”

    A heavy bag would do ya good. It’s OK to just scream and pound on the thing until you fall to the floor.

  55. @A Definite Beta Guy
    “As men we have incentive and benefit to have good social skills

    This is inaccurate. We wouldn’t be having this conversation otherwise.”

    Our social skills allow us to display leadership of men, dominance, social proof and preselection, value in general, etc. so it benefits us to have them.

    “Yesterday, my 2 year old niece told me she wants to be Belle, because she has the prettiest shoes out of all the Disney Princesses. Do I really sound like the guy buying into the equalitarian fantasies?”

    Yes, when it comes to older women who you expect to not have like a Disney pillow in their room that their uncle bought them when they were 2 lol You’re expecting them to be like men and improve themselves and bring something more to the table than what your 2 year old niece brings.

    “The fact that women are not incentivized correctly does not mean they are not failing.”

    I mean, that’s technically true. But then you’re failing at flying to the moon right now. You’re also failing and building me a yatch. And you’re failing at riding a dinosaur.

    They’re technically true, but it’s silly and unrealistic of me to expect you to do those things in the first place.

    “See: Teacher’s Unions. I don’t give a damn they are not “incentivized,” they are failing to teach my kids. FAIL. It means, NOT DOING THE JOB.”

    Their job is to teach kids. A woman’s “job” is not to “be interesting and have good social skills”. She doesn’t owe you anything. She could just sit and stare at a wall all day silently if she wants.

    “Women have a social JOB to do.”

    No, you or the programming you’ve received has decided they do. Just like I might decide your job is to fly to the moon and then get mad at you because you’re failing at it.

    How many guys wouldn’t fuck an HB10 who’s begging for your dick because she doesn’t have a big social circle or because she committed some social faux pas in public or wasn’t very interesting to talk to? Pretty much none lol If a smokin hot girl has good social skills she might be able to work her way up to having access to higher-value men but even then it’s going to come down to her looks most of the time.

    You want her to do a job she has no reason to do because it benefits YOU for her to do it, just like I might want you to fly to the moon because it benefits me, but that’s not how life works.

    “I feel no need to argue on this blog that women have a job to do, and I feel no need to argue that, yes, women can fail that job”

    Dunno what to tell you then. There are things that a lot of men would like women to do, but at the end of the day there are enough thirsty men to fuck that impolite boring HB10 if she lets them. That’s just reality.

    “This isn’t asking my dog to do taxes, this are basic social skills that are synergistic with women’s biological make-up and have been the expectation of women in all functioning societies.”

    In previous societies where women were shamed for fucking everything they swipe right on on Tinder, yes, it benefitted them to have social skills and be interesting conversationalists. That’s not the world we live in in 2015. In 2015 she can be the shittiest most unpleasant fuck, she can even be 300lbs, and she’ll still find thirsty guys who will fuck her. And the sad part is that a lot of those guys will be good looking high-value dudes who just don’t have game and don’t know how to meet girls. Hi, Mark Zuckerberg!

    You have an outdated mentality based on old ideas that social media and technology has destroyed. Adapt to the current reality.

    “You are simply glossing over the agency of women”

    I’m not glossing over it. Women will do what benefits achieving their biological Survival and Replication goals based on the data their brains are fed. Right now society is feeding them shitty data so they’re choosing careers over children and trying to provide their own Survival, and men are thirsty enough and technology has connected those thirsty men to them easily enough that they will literally NEVER not have access to Providers or Lovers for Replication.

    “and the character change in the last few decades. If you don’t care about that, fine, but that doesn’t make it irrelevant.”

    I’m not saying it’s irrelevant. I’m saying the source of your frustrations comes from holding onto ideals that haven’t been updated to reflect current reality.

    The only way women will decide they need to develop social skills and be interesting conversationalists is when they can’t land high enough Lovers and Providers without those things. In the past, they had a selection of men in their city and their social skills and interesting conversation could help them work their way up to higher-value men.

    But right now AAA celebrities will message them on Instagram, with no fucks given about their social skills or conversation skills. Welcome to 2015, there’s no going back.

    “BTW, what are you going to do if Bad Game gets criminalized? Just tell men not to do Bad Game? Because that contradicts experimenting and learning and failing in order to develop Good Game.”

    They’ll have a tougher time learning game if something like that happens, that’s for sure. I don’t envy ’em lol But men will figure out a solution like we always do.

  56. YaReally: “Looks are about as important as any other tool in the Game toolbox. Remove looks and you can make up for it with preselection, social proof, dominance, tonality, DHV, teasing, negs, dread game, etc etc”

    Rollo: “So yes, Game is the most important aspect in attraction, but Looks are far more important than to be relegated to being a Game tool.”

    Interesting. This seems to be mostly a matter of differing frames – a frame wherein one’s ‘game’ is the operative function wherein all things happen even your physical presentation, and another where your social and physical presentation is the frame wherein things like game (or anti-game) can happen.

    I like this presentation better. There are a broad range of ways we can interact with people. We interact with our appearance, with our subcomms, with our words, with our smell, etc. The more we take control over these things – ‘agency’ – the more our behaviors can become a ‘game,’ a way of accomplishing what we want to accomplish with other people. (Remember, of course, that this ‘game’ isn’t usually or ideally a conscious effort, except at first).

    So negs, social proof, AMOG, looks, clothes, money, social status, DHV, disqualifying – all sorts of things – become ways of thinking about various ways to navigate social circumstances. Most of them take some sort of effort to attain effectiveness in. They’re abstractions, sure, but they are quite useful patterns to be aware of.

    All that to say, the clear reality is that different attractive attributes each have their own pros and cons.

    Appearance
    Pros: can work without any social proof on your part. Can work across a room, without saying a word. Is passive. Works quickly. Is undeniable. Helps overall health/vitality.
    Cons: Difficult to fully display in most settings. Is susceptible to acclimation – at least temporarily. Doesn’t help at all with determining logistics. Takes quite a bit of work, at the upper levels.

    Negs
    Pros: relatively easy to learn by rote. Good tool to use against high-esteem girls, who tend to be hot. Good way to level social inequalities. Can spike emotions in a predictable fashion. Good for rekindling dying interest. Use it to give a girl a rationalization to keep talking to you where none otherwise exists.
    Cons: requires ongoing conversation. Not useful against unsure/unconfident girls. Miscalibration tends to really misfire. Tends to emotionally escalate, which can backfire against guys unable to handle that. Takes wit when things aren’t going by rote.

    And so on. You could do this for all sorts of things.

    You need to know what each tool is good for. Is a hammer better than a screwdriver? What do we mean by better?

  57. “You need to know what each tool is good for. Is a hammer better than a screwdriver? What do we mean by better?”

    We haaaaaaaave a winner!

    I usually use Ferrari instead of hammer.

  58. As far as looks go…

    I was at an event Sunday. People are sitting at tables, not circulating too much, watching a football game. Despite ostensibly being a singles event, there are several obvious couples there. Moreover, I wind up sitting next to a HB0 loudmouth. So I’m considering ditching.

    So I get up and wander a bit, and I notice the best looking one of the remainder giving me the eye. There’s an open chair there, so I sit down and mingle with her. After the event we split off and had dinner.

    Now these are game basics, but I’m still better at them than before my marriage. Granted these are older chicks, likely easier pickups, but still. I am a good looking guy for my age.

    YaReally has overextended himself here. I don’t know how he has time to write all of these posts, it takes away from sarging time lol. I am not going to make up a fake identity, sorry.

    A lot of the hardcore game business only makes any sense in giant markets with massive anonymity and an endless supply of new women. Many of us don’t live in London or DC or LA. You can go out and you are not going to see other guys doing hardcore game. A lot of guys can be helped by having tight basics, and looks are part of that. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

  59. YaReally,

    Ethics do not get updated so as to make your life easier in the short-term. They are codes to make society function.

    Your ethics are fundamentally identical to third-wave feminism: this is why Hollenhund is pushing back on you. You literally told me “women don’t owe you anything.”
    This is the first result when I google that:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPFVfxAv31w

    The only substantive difference between you and third-wave feminism is your devotion to PUA, which admittedly offers a chance to men to make a decent living, but in roughly the same sense as any Horatio Alger story.

    That’s not a viable ethical code, it is a demonstrably unfair ethical code, and, yes, men are adapting. They are not adapting by learning PUA, they are adapting by playing Xbox and watching internet porn. This is why I say men are not incentivized to learn social skills, because the rewards aren’t there, and your attitude towards this is “men are lazy,” which is, as Hollenhund states, identical to third-wave feminism and trad-con morality.

    That’s leaving aside your attitude towards False Rape accusations, which is “Good Game,” which is not feasible for a college-age male.

    This is the logical end-state of your ethics.

    I see no particular reason to update my ethics.

    FWIW, my ethics are NOT socially conditioned: people try to socially condition them OUT of me. The socially conditioned ethics are YOUR ethics, which is that women owe you nothing, and if a woman did something bad to you, you probably did something to deserve it (Bad Game).

  60. I love this shit. Great comments @yaReally & everybody.

    I think that the looks thing has been played to death, but I attribute pretty much all of my pre-red pill success to looks. I think it just helps with first impressions and kind of greases the wheels of attraction. I’ve said it before, but sometimes 5’s and 6’s blush and kind of avoid making eye contact with me like if they did they’d melt or something. 7’s sometimes smile and wave for no other reason than I’m walking by. I’m guessing it’s just because of my looks, body language, tonality. I definitely enjoy it.

    Anyway, thanks everyone for posting here.

  61. @Rollo
    “The first thing men report when they get into even marginally better shape, to say nothing of really great shape, is the amount of expressed sexual attraction they get from women. You will get attention when you are in better shape; what you do with that when it comes time to capitalize on it is a question of Game.”

    could it be said that Game is a force multiplier? Seems like a reasonable term to me

  62. @agent p

    I came up with this in that Man in demand conference post. Yeah, it’s nerdy but I think it works.

    Attraction = (looks + style + assets + 1) * game^2

  63. Yareally – “Understand what I’m saying? Women are not failing, you are setting standards for them that they were never capable of or incentivized to achieve.”

    I disagree. We men are allowing women a free pass to be boring dipshits because we want to get laid.

    I won’t spend more than 15 minutes in the company of a boring person, man or woman, unless I’m getting paid for it. I fully expect my wife to be able to have intellectual conversations with me as well as my friends, about any number of subjects from politics to tech.

    If all we expect from women is a pretty face and a pussy, its all we will ever get and all they will ever be worth.

    Maybe my standards are unrealistic, but my wife is managing to meet them. And as you said, one yellow ball in the box proves they all aren’t blue.

  64. “The first thing men report when they get into even marginally better shape, to say nothing of really great shape, is the amount of expressed sexual attraction they get from women. You will get attention when you are in better shape; what you do with that when it comes time to capitalize on it is a question of Game.”

    Interesting conversation y’all.

    Here’s my take (admittedly limited experience)

    My V shape torso gets me lots of attention. None of which went anywhere without some game.

    The double comma’s in my bank account gets me lots of attention. None of which went anywhere without some sort of game.

    My style of dress gets me some attention. None of which went anywhere without some sort of game.

    My dominant IDGAF attitude gets me lots of attention. None of which went anywhere without some sort of game.

    My social proof and contacts gets me lots of attention. None of which went anywhere without some sort of game.

    My charismatic social skills get me lots of attention. None of which went anywhere without some sort of game.

    I was around a guy the other day that could of benched a small car. He had a dominant attitude and an HB9 girl on his arm. With this guy around I was fucking invisible. So what?

    I can only do the best with what I got.

    Put me in a room with 100 average guys from the area of the country I live in? I’m in the top 10 easy.

    Seems to me that it’s a total package deal, the context of the situation, and the particular woman as well.

    Women fantasize over Chad Thundercock. I fantasize over Victoria Secret angels…

    Does it matter? ’cause I don’t see either me or them fucking their fantasy.

  65. “Yareally – Women are not failing, you are setting standards for them that they were never capable of or incentivized to achieve.”

    “Teddi – We men are allowing women a free pass to be boring dipshits because we want to get laid.”

    teddi,

    didn’t you literally just agree with yareally?

  66. CC – nope. I dont tolerate boring dipshits in my life. I expect and get more from the women I allow into my frame. No free rides, and pussy isn’t payment.

    I mean yeah, I agree many women are boring. I disagree that they arent capable of being interesting. They are capable, its just that no one expects it. So, expect it and don’t settle for less.

    If all you want is a pretty faced vagina? Well plenty to choose from!

  67. ” I disagree that they arent capable of being interesting. They are capable, its just that no one expects it. So, expect it and don’t settle for less.”

    Anecdotal here:

    My wife is very smart. She can have “intelligent” conversations, but she’s more apt to just agree with what I’m saying than to actually debate me. Also, she will very quickly change the subject to nail polish, or kids, or silly story of the day. I tend to be passionate about what’s wrong with the world, society, etc. She’ll agree with me, but she just doesn’t care that much if it doesn’t directly affect her. I can’t think of a single female friend that was any different. This is why I have guy friends.

  68. @teddj4g

    I mean yeah, I agree many women are boring. I disagree that they arent capable of being interesting. They are capable, its just that no one expects it. So, expect it and don’t settle for less.

    The argument is being tossed around by so many people the original point is getting distorted. The original point was that you cannot expect women to lead the interaction, and if the interaction fails it should fall on the leader to examine what he could have done differently. Only a bad leader blames his troops for failure. The argument *was never* that boring women do not exist, nor that you will never encounter them in your travels, nor that women are “incapable” of being interesting. These are distortions of the original argument. The PUA argument here (to arrogantly speak for others) is that if you expect the woman to be putting herself out there and leading the evening to fun (by “being interesting” in the male sense of the word), you’re having a blue pill evening and good luck holding frame after that. Given this situation, it should be expected of men to simply deal with the occasional boring woman by removing attention rather than conceding responsibility for an interesting evening.

    Interesting woman = You’re expected to hold frame.
    Boring woman = You’re still expected to hold frame, but you don’t have to give her attention.

  69. @Forge
    “You need to know what each tool is good for. Is a hammer better than a screwdriver? What do we mean by better?”

    Game is the overencompassing toolbox carrying the tools. There are guys who will tell you social proof is way more important than looks or teasing or vocal tonality and the other tools in the box, just like here you’ll hear looks are more important than other tools in the box. End of the day they’re all about the same: they’re ways to help get yourself some Approach Invites and iois to make things easier. But a guy focusing his looks will gain about as much benefit as a guy focusing on his vocal tonality: he’ll get some free gimme ioi’s and AIs here and there, and that’s super, but he’ll need overall game to convert those into actually getting his dick inside vaginas.

    The catch is that it takes hours in the gym to get in the top 10% of looks and even if you DO achieve getting jacked you’re limited by your genetics/height/facial-symmetry/whatever lol You will NEVER be the best looking guy wherever you go. But with a fraction of the time investment you could be in the top 10% of being socially proofed when you walk around your city, or have insanely solid vocal tonality, preselection, skills at running group dynamics etc which will pay off way more in the end.

    Game overall also gives you choice. If you’re relying on AIs and iois you’re stuck going for girls who choose you. When you have game you can go open whatever you want and have a solid chance at making it work.

    This is all WHY the Forever Alone guys exist, instead of brushing them off as an insignificant minority because it doesn’t fit the pushed belief system and leave those guys out to rot (hey sorry you’re going to be virgin losers for life but you’re the minority so whatevs, good luck Elliot! lol) I can fully explain them: they have looks, and they get some free gimme iois and AIs but they don’t have game and don’t know how to convert those to lays. All their hours in the gym did fuck all to ACTUALLY get their dick wet, they just get some free validation from women which feels super great but still has them up depressed and lonely because there isn’t a warm body in their bed sucking their dick.

    But most guys will see them getting those iois and think “well if *I* got those iois I would know how to turn that into a lay no problem (like say, a guy who was a Natural in a band for part of his life and learned game naturally and sometimes doesn’t relate to how inept the majority of normal guys can be with women), so that guy MUST be getting laid”, or thinking that that guy can just “say two words” and the chick will jump on his dick saying “THANKYOU CHAD THUNDERCOCK!!!!” not realizing or accepting that a TON of those guys, the majority probably, will very likely drop the ball at some point between the meet and lay because they spent their time focusing on looks instead of learning game.

    @Striver
    “So I get up and wander a bit, and I notice the best looking one of the remainder giving me the eye. There’s an open chair there, so I sit down and mingle with her. After the event we split off and had dinner.”

    Like I’ve said countless times: looks will get you free gimme iois and AIs and positive attention. And as long as there’s no interference by other guys with game or cockblocking/obstacles and the girl helps things along guys with looks can get laid just based off their looks. But newbies who are learning to socialize and pick up girls should be focusing on their game and being infield approaching. If they can squeeze in a workout, cool, but elevating looks above other tools in the game toolbox is just feeding them what they want to hear ie – “I can do this solo thing that doesn’t involve putting myself in social situations because those are scary, and it’ll get me laid because it’s almost as good as having game and that game stuff is scary and involves getting too far out of my comfort zone, now lemme put my headphones on cause I’m not gonna talk to these girls in my gym this is my sanctuary brah when I get down to 11.235% bodyfat THEN I’ll start talking to girls cuz they’ll all wanna fuck me according to what I read on the internet about looks!”

    “YaReally has overextended himself here. I don’t know how he has time to write all of these posts, it takes away from sarging time lol.”

    lol I have sick time management skills. The 21yo from the kiddie club the other night is coming over to fuck tommorrow night. 😛

    “I am not going to make up a fake identity, sorry.”

    lol I don’t care if you do. I just recommend it to avoid shit like this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2596113/James-Franco-35-hits-schoolgirl-17-Instagram-series-texts.html

    “A lot of the hardcore game business only makes any sense in giant markets with massive anonymity and an endless supply of new women. Many of us don’t live in London or DC or LA.”

    Any city with a college/university has an endless supply of new women. London, DC and LA aren’t the only cities with colleges/universities. This is the “well if it can’t be perfect then fuck it” mentality. When I was starting out I was going to shitty mostly-empty venues on weeknights just to find some girls to chat up.

    @A Definite Beta Guy
    “You literally told me “women don’t owe you anything.””

    They don’t. Why would they owe you anything? For the good of society? Do you think women care about the good of society? Do you think they’ve EVER cared about society?

    http://therationalmale.com/tag/solipsism/

    Women do what’s in their best personal interest (and maybe what’s in the best interest of their child but even that’s debatable). Always have, always will. Society kept that in check with punishments and judgement and isolation for a while, but those chains have come off and now chicks are running wild. They’re doing what they’ve always been hardwired to do, there just aren’t any checks in place to keep it from getting out of hand now.

    They are not “failing”, they’re doing what they’ve always done. Society is failing in laying the smack down and reigning their behavior in (and is generally ENCOURAGING it lol). This will have consequences but at the end of the day women are just being women. Anyone expecting them NOT to be acting on emotional whims based in their own self interest, and expecting them to have some sense of ethical honor for the greater good of society doesn’t fully grasp solipsism and hypergamy.

    “They are not adapting by learning PUA, they are adapting by playing Xbox and watching internet porn.”

    Pretty sure the PUA industry would disagree lol There’s two camps, the ones adapting and the ones bailing. Ideally more guys will adapt, especially if they realize they can just go out and talk to people and get better at it instead of thinking they have to grow another 5 inches in height and become Chad Thundercock to get pussy.

    “This is why I say men are not incentivized to learn social skills, because the rewards aren’t there, and your attitude towards this is “men are lazy,””

    They’re incentivized, they just either don’t view the reward as worth the effort or yes, are lazy. No one will fix a guy’s problems but himself. That’s not fair, I get it, but if that guy does someday decide to change his life the toolbox is there for him to do it with.

    “That’s leaving aside your attitude towards False Rape accusations, which is “Good Game,” which is not feasible for a college-age male.”

    lol sure it is. He can read up and learn exactly what Buyer’s Remorse is and why it happens and how to prevent it so that by the 2nd or 3rd time he gets laid he’s already properly managing it. It’s not some skill that takes years and dozens of angry former-lays to learn. THIS shit is why guys go run away and play x-box, because they’re like “oh that’s not feasable for me, that guy on the internet said it’s impossible so I’ll just play more Halo”.

    “I see no particular reason to update my ethics.”

    lol you can do whatever you want man, I don’t care. You can have whatever ethical code you like. I’m just reporting what the current societal “ethical situation” is for women in 2015. I deal with reality not imaginary rules and codes that half of society isn’t following and the other half is encouraging them NOT to follow lol

    “which is that women owe you nothing, and if a woman did something bad to you, you probably did something to deserve it (Bad Game).”

    That’s not social conditioning, that’s logic. You don’t owe me anything, women don’t owe me anything, society doesn’t owe me anything. Just like Rollo’s article we’re posting in says: “Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order.”

    Does Rollo have socially conditioned ethics? No, he’s just warning men of the uncomfortable truth of how shit works lol

  70. “I disagree that they arent capable of being interesting”

    She’s only interesting ’till I nut.

    Andy,

    you remind me of me. I talk about the problems of the world a lot. Very passionate about it. Most women can’t or won’t keep up with the subjects I care about, wife included.

    One of my closest guy friends has the exact opposite views on political subjects, we are close because he and I both enjoy having someone around that will go “toe to toe” with each other.

    I find I have to dumb myself down for chicks.

  71. Jeremy – I got lost as to why any man would continue talking to a boring woman, which led to all women are boring. I simply disagree. I wouldn’t consider it a fail to open a woman and find out all she knows about is reality TV. That isn’t my fault, and I have no interest in what she has to say.

    Andy – I certainly don’t wax philosophical with the wife 24×7. But sometimes we get into some good conversations alone or with friends. Generally if she changes subjects during a chat, that’s simply an indicator that she isn’t in the mood for it and we move on to whatever. But I fully reject the idea that women aren’t capable.

  72. Attraction = (looks + style + assets + 1) * game^2

    Could work as long as all variables are positive values. Negative game would simply be very low value like 0.1 vs 0.9 for Ya Really. If you plug a negative game number into that equation you get an ascending number. That math, she got no flow.

    Personally I think you need to account for negative game as piss poor game, or anti-game, e.g. getting suckered by Beta bait thrown out by chicks throws you out of her pool of considered candidates entirely. So a negative game attribute, say being a suck up beta, should get you a negative or null score if we consider attraction as the final outcome number.

    Either way, reducing it to a formula is kind of spergy and would lead some to pursue some variables to illogical extents to get a certain kind of end number of attraction. The forever alone muscle thing is a perfect example of that, they have some great scores on some qualities which should bring up the value, they have low or middling game and they end up having piss poor attraction they can capitalize on. Perhaps they should buy cats and learn how to play with them. (I have always owned cats for my whole life, they have remarkable parallels to women in their behaviour, if you can get a cat to warm up to you, you can use the same approach to women. Ignore them, they come to you, love them too much, they leave. Once you get them warmed up, they’ll go for rough cuddles, if you just met them and they are not sure of you, they’ll be cold and cagey. They both have a great Lordosis response. The list goes on, if you can game a cat, you can game women)

    I brought up force multiplier because it assumes you have some of or all of the things even marginally taken care of and it allows you to leverage those things against the opponents weakness’.

    Game reduces, accounts for and helps to control for seemingly random variables that could knock you out of the hunt.
    Game allows you to press buttons that open doors
    Game works on the basis of generalizations so there will always be exceptions, but not so many as to undermine the validity of the generalization in the first place.
    RP can keep you from getting blown out because you stepped on a landmine
    Game lets you leverage positive attributes

    Game is art, but it is built upon a solid foundation of skills and understanding a set of principals. Like the artist no good art comes of piss poor brush skills or a lack of insight and understanding except by dumb luck. It resists math.

  73. CaveClown – “She’s only interesting ’till I nut.”

    Lol. Never had one of those, hope I never will. I guess looking back I’ve never been so thirsty that tolerating a dumbass was my best option. I’d find porn and some hand lotion more enticing than the average female TV junky. And at least the small talk wouldn’t be painful…

  74. In fact, the biggest demographic that makes use of PUA material online are male introverts. These are men who stick to themselves, burned and/or conditioned to keep to themselves to the point that they now self-condition themselves into isolation. Most of the time, introverts disqualify a conversation with someone before it has ever begun. Worse, when they make attempts to be social, and find failure, they’ll often blame everything but themselves.[…]. Worse, these same men have self-convinced that every tiny failure is worth quitting over.

    I find it interesting – well, OK, somewhat interesting; it’s actually rather predictable – that so many in the ‘sphere are apparently deeply invested in this narrative about average beta males being pathological, anti-social, solipsistic shitheads with a sense of entitlement. I’m not surprised when I come across this nonsense on Jezebel or any other shitty mainstream website, but to see it repeated by supposedly Red Pill men is mildly amusing. I remember reading this shit on J4G as well.

    First of all, we have this totally baseless statement that introverted betas are the biggest consumers of PUA material. Nevermind that simple logic tells us that it’s precisely extroverted men that are most likely to be attracted to, and also attempt, PUA tactics. I’m pretty sure this needs no explanation. Introverted men will rather be tempted by activities that are comfortable for introverts, like playing computer games.

    Second of all, we are always reminded that average betas, introverted or not, are just plainly sick. They’re creeps, slimeballs. It’s not like they’re simply responding to incentives when they avoid making attempts to socialize with strangers in nightclubs, because they’ve learned that there’s no justifiable reward for them in it in a world of diminishing and disappearing returns for betas. Noooo! These sick fuckers are self-conditioning themselves into isolation! The horror! They think they’re simply to awesome to interact with mere mortals! They blame all their problems on others! And they instantly quit when experiencing the first tiny failure!

    All this nonsense is nothing but an attempt to signal status in the male social hierarchy that this matriarchy has built. “Look at me, I’m not one of those icky betas! See?” It’s designed to suck up to any woman and any self-convinced alpha who may be listening.

  75. “Either way, reducing it to a formula is kind of spergy and would lead some to pursue some variables to illogical extents to get a certain kind of end number of attraction.”

    I know. lol. it doesn’t really work.

  76. “Lol. Never had one of those, hope I never will. I guess looking back I’ve never been so thirsty that tolerating a dumbass was my best option. I’d find porn and some hand lotion more enticing than the average female TV junky. And at least the small talk wouldn’t be painful…”

    Are you calling me thirsty Tedd??? lol

  77. Further, since we are in a parenting thread: do you want the mother of your children to be a dipshit? What kind of daily interactions can you have with a live in woman if the depth of her personality is decorating and makeup?

    All this bubbly energy stuff is great for casual sex. In the context of having children though, there are far more important traits that aren’t so fun but are essential for any chance of success. I think part of the disconnect is there are different reasons to open a woman. Some of those purposes have a low threshold of requirements, others have a very high bar to meet. Since this thread is about parenting, I’m not really talking about those low threshold purposes.

  78. @Andy @agent p

    I don’t have a problem with that formula, but in those brackets would be a shitload more things (social proof, preselection, leadership of men, dominance, etc). But ya that’s my point, game is the overall encompassing toolbox holding those things. You can work on any of those tools if you want, but they’re just going to get you “positive attention” iois and AIs.

    This schlub in a windbreaker is getting INFINITELY more IOIs, AIs, etc. than any of the buff dudes or guys in suits in that mall:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Ko6Xfa84w

    2:35 on his way out a girl hands him a paper with her number on it and he calls it and it’s real.

    So do we conclude that social proof is more important than looks? Is the formula now “Social proof, Money, Game, pick two”? No of course not. Because social proof is a tool in the game toolbox just like looks. It gets you positive attention and iois just like social proof does. Just like any DHV does.

    The difference is you can learn to build social proof in a night. Getting jacked and growing a few inches will take you years. Which is the better time investment for guys who want to get their dick wet and don’t have a band or Natural skills or jacked bodies?

    @teddj4g
    “If all we expect from women is a pretty face and a pussy, its all we will ever get and all they will ever be worth.”

    And do you think it’s realistic that men will, en masse, stop putting out for women and demand they be more than a pretty face and pussy? I just deal with reality lol I love all these ideas of what women should offer, but reality is women are getting more and more access to men (now from the entire world, Skype is apparently going to start translating langauges in conversations live for people so guess what now your chick who hasn’t bothered to learn a second language can get hit on by all those foreign Euro alpha dudes who don’t speak English and want to fuck her…is she going to try to better herself when thousands of new men were just unlocked for her? lol of course not she has more selection than she knows what to do with…she’ll even SCREEN those guys and disqualify half of the good looking ones lol look at any average to hot girl’s Tinder and it’s FULL of Chad Thundercock lookin’ motherfuckers who will BEG to take her out to dinner no matter how unpleasant she is. THAT’S reality in 2015, that’s what Average Joe is dealing with when he wants to learn to get laid…he might get more jacked than all the dudes in his city or even his country but now he’s also competing with Chad Thundercock in Europe. Better get the roids out!).

    “Maybe my standards are unrealistic, but my wife is managing to meet them”

    I’m not trying to be a dick but I’d imagine your wife is not what the average mid-20s guy is trying to get laid by. Like, maybe they SHOULD, but the reality is they aren’t. They’re trying to stick their dick in girls they think are sexy bitches lol

    @CaveClown
    “Seems to me that it’s a total package deal, the context of the situation, and the particular woman as well.”

    Exactly. This is my point lol Your dominant IDGAF attitude will get you attention, just like your looks, just like social proof, etc. but to say that your IDGAF is more improtant than looks and social proof or that looks are more important than social proof etc is just the residue of a socially conditioned belief…”ok I get this whole “game” thing, but like, let’s be serious, looks are MORE important than those other things…I know I know, they don’t matter but like, they DO matter, c’mon.” Just like guys who think money matters will say the exact same thing about money. Game is what matters and guys should understand that looks are just a normal tool in the toolbox like any of the other tools so they don’t go down a socially isolated path that stunts their results/growth.

    “Women fantasize over Chad Thundercock. I fantasize over Victoria Secret angels…Does it matter? ’cause I don’t see either me or them fucking their fantasy.”

    lol exactly. Women fantasize over skinny gross rockstars (were all those guys jacked like Arnold? No), the sparkling weiner emo kid from Twilight, and hell there are teenage girls fantasizing over fucking Final Fantasy characters lol PRETEND CHARACTERS. None of that shit matters.

    @Andy
    “My wife is very smart. She can have “intelligent” conversations, but she’s more apt to just agree with what I’m saying than to actually debate me. Also, she will very quickly change the subject to nail polish, or kids, or silly story of the day. I tend to be passionate about what’s wrong with the world, society, etc. She’ll agree with me, but she just doesn’t care that much if it doesn’t directly affect her. I can’t think of a single female friend that was any different. This is why I have guy friends.”

    Same. A buddy viewed his GF as logical and smarter than other girls until I asked him what exactly she’s taught him about life or anything lol And he started trying to have “bad feels” conversations about her finances and shit and she’d just cry and change the subject. I don’t expect a girl to provide that shit…if she does, that’s cool, but I have guy friends who I’ll have infintely more interesting conversations with.

    Hell I can come HERE and have a more interesting discussion than I’ll ever have with some hot 21yo even if she’s really really smart compared to other hot 21yos. That 21yo isn’t failing lol, she just doesn’t have a reason to be more interesting. I could just NOT fuck her and say “no you have to be able to discuss tank strategies in world war 2 before I’ll fuck you” but 50 other dudes are lined up to fuck her if I won’t.

    …actually that would be funny to try. “Sorry, I can’t do this tonight…I’m really turned on by obscure trivia about the food industry’s promotion of the standard american diet…maybe if you could whisper something in my ear about the dangers of corn syrup mmm baby that’s so sexy” lol

    @Jeremy
    “The argument is being tossed around by so many people the original point is getting distorted.”

    Fucking, THANK YOU. lol What I said was not an illogical point. It’s just really really uncomfortable to hear so guys are warping it into whatever strawman they want to get pissed about and painting their “WELL IT SHOULDN’T BE THAT WAY” feels onto it lol I doubt many people actually calmly rationally reading what I wrote would disagree with the pure logic of what I’m saying is happening out there.

    “The original point was that you cannot expect women to lead the interaction, and if the interaction fails it should fall on the leader to examine what he could have done differently.”

    <3 I wanna have your babies for actually reading what I'm saying instead of taking this into weird "UR A FEMINAZI" zones lol

    "The argument *was never* that boring women do not exist, nor that you will never encounter them in your travels, nor that women are “incapable” of being interesting. These are distortions of the original argument."

    EXACTLY. All I'm saying is that they aren't incentivized in 2015 to BE interesting, so why would anyone EXPECT them to be? It's entirely possible that they MIGHT be, but it's very unlikely when it doesn't serve their interests like it did in the old days where it would gain them access to higher-value males. That chick James Franco tried to fuck on Instagram was about to land a AAA CELEBRITY, just for being young and decently fuckable lol Does anyone think that chick is going to go "you know, to land a high-value male I really need to be more interesting?" No, of course not, why would she?? lol

    "The PUA argument here (to arrogantly speak for others) is that if you expect the woman to be putting herself out there and leading the evening to fun (by “being interesting” in the male sense of the word), you’re having a blue pill evening and good luck holding frame after that."

    It's not even about holding the frame…it's just like, you're going to be disappointed. What do you expect? You're expecting your dog to do your taxes. You could probably train a dog to do your taxes, or there might be one of those smart math dogs that can bark out your tax percent when you throw the right colored balls at it, but like, you're expecting a being who's solipsistic by nature which means that in their mind the world revolves around them, and expecting them to do something they get no personal benefit out of.

    You can expect that if you want, but you're going to be very disappointed very regularly and you'd probably be better off objectively looking at WHY women in 2015 aren't bringing that stuff to the table instead of just going "they're stupid bitches women suck wahhhh" as if it's their fault that society doesn't expect more from them like it used to and rewards them with James Franco for just having a pussy.

    "Given this situation, it should be expected of men to simply deal with the occasional boring woman by removing attention rather than conceding responsibility for an interesting evening."

    Exactly. Like, ditch a boring woman. That's fine, you do what you want it's your dick not mine. OR, accept that she has no reason to be more interesting, and appreciate her for the stuff she DOES bring to the table, like feminine energy, some fun laughs, some sexy scenery, a good fuck, and just lighten up and have fun and enjoy women. And if a girl DOESN'T provide feminine energy or fun laughs or a good fuck, or is a bitch or TOO dumb etc then I ditch her. But I'm qualifying her based on reasonable expectations instead of fantasies that were never true in the first place (women weren't going to charm school back in the day to just self-improve they were doing it to land a higher quality man, aka personal incentive).

    Personally, I don't see women being super fucking interesting so I keep them as fuckbuddies at best. If I meet one who's amazing and blows my mind, hey, maybe I'll pLTR her. But I'm not expecting that and women don't owe me it. They just do what benefits them and right now being interesting and having sick social skills doesn't benefit them because they can still fuck James Franco and Chris Hemsworth just Liked their Tweet and is totes practically their new boyfriend in their mind.

    Do I think this is the best state for society? No. But it's not going to change anytime soon. These guys aren't going to all just stop being thirsty and start holding women to higher standards. Society isn't going to start judging women for fucking around and tell them to lock their vaginas up. So we adapt and give men tools to survive and thrive in the reality that is "trying to stick your dick in hot <25yo's in 2015".

  79. CC -rofl I think I kinda did!

    I don’t like “people” and generally I find most average folks just aren’t very interesting. I don’t have friends to have them, I have friends whom are like minded and have similar values. Call them my tribe, my people, whatever you call it they are the only ones I care about. I will never want to chat up random folks for the adventure, because I know beyond all doubt that most of them probably don’t even know who’s running for President next election, let alone anything interesting to discuss. The only people I dumb down for are the ones I’m paid to explain myself to, and although I’m good at it I find it annoying as hell.

    Put another way: I’ve never wanted to get laid so badly I would set aside that the woman in front of me is only going to stay interesting to me until I’m finished. *shrug* I want something more out of the deal. Maybe a little mentally stimulating pillow talk? Do the TV junkies make sammiches? Might change my mind if so.

  80. @hoellenhund2

    …that so many in the ‘sphere are apparently deeply invested in this narrative about average beta males being pathological, anti-social, solipsistic shitheads with a sense of entitlement.

    Exactly what are you talking about? Who said this? I was talking about introverts, I made no mention of anything pathological.

    First of all, we have this totally baseless statement that introverted betas are the biggest consumers of PUA material. Nevermind that simple logic tells us that it’s precisely extroverted men that are most likely to be attracted to, and also attempt, PUA tactics. I’m pretty sure this needs no explanation. Introverted men will rather be tempted by activities that are comfortable for introverts, like playing computer games.

    So you accuse me of a baseless statement, and immediately follow it up with “simple logic tells us…,” and “needs no explanation.” You’ve got a long way to go to learn how to argue if you’re going to accuse someone of doing the very thing you do in the exact same paragraph.

    Second of all, we are always reminded that average betas, introverted or not, are just plainly sick. They’re creeps, slimeballs. It’s not like they’re simply responding to incentives when they avoid making attempts to socialize with strangers in nightclubs, because they’ve learned that there’s no justifiable reward for them in it in a world of diminishing and disappearing returns for betas.

    So, you tell me that introverted betas are not the ones looking to PUAs, and then you describe the exact conditions that might push introverts towards PUA material? Did it dawn on you when writing that that such social pressures might be exactly what causes introverts to look for help in a social world that punishes them for not being socially developed?

    All this nonsense is nothing but an attempt to signal status in the male social hierarchy that this matriarchy has built. “Look at me, I’m not one of those icky betas! See?” It’s designed to suck up to any woman and any self-convinced alpha who may be listening.

    That reads like a concession that you have no argument, you just want others to think that what I’m talking about here is somehow part of the FI.

  81. Yareally – brother men en masse aren’t doing shit. But you, as an individual man, can expect and get better behavior from individual women. Hell, in a way it works in your favor. If she’s into you, and wants to please you, she’ll learn to keep up with your conversation, or NEXT.

    My wife is in medical. She knew shit about tech before we met. She can now not only discuss tech without issue, she has actually learned a lot about how it works. Why? Because its how I make my living and important to me. She’ll never be an expert, but she took the time to learn enough to communicate with me on something I found important.

    Its a form of her qualifying for me: she is proving she is smart enough to understand the things that are important to me. Even if they aren’t important to her.

  82. @YaReally

    But I’m not expecting that and women don’t owe me it. They just do what benefits them and right now being interesting and having sick social skills doesn’t benefit them because they can still fuck James Franco and Chris Hemsworth just Liked their Tweet and is totes practically their new boyfriend in their mind.
    Do I think this is the best state for society? No. But it’s not going to change anytime soon….

    It won’t change until men stop being thirsty and raise their standards for commitment. That’s the final, fatal flaw of MGTOW, imo. MGTOW offers nothing to the ladies as a new standard of behavior, it simply says, “No, I won’t interact with you.”

    No matter how angry you might be with someone, anyone, groups, families, cultures, countries… if you simply say, “No, I won’t interact with you under any circumstances,” then you are the one being unreasonable. If instead you change your expected standard of behavior, and communicate this clearly, you’re giving other people a chance to impress you.

  83. @CaveClown
    “you remind me of me. I talk about the problems of the world a lot. Very passionate about it. Most women can’t or won’t keep up with the subjects I care about, wife included.”

    Yup. This is super common. And some of your wives probably ARE interesting, because it benefitted them to learn to be. And I’m sure Rollo’s daughter is interesting because as a Red Pill guy he probably helped encourage her to develop an interesting personality and taught her ways it can benefit her (solipsism).

    But in 2015 most of the <25yo's that guys are meeting just DON'T have incentive or punsihment to bring more than pussy and feminine energy to the table. If you want more from them, you're asking them to do something they're doing just fine NOT doing. That chick James Franco tried to fuck will never have reason to better herself because she's already able to bang the top 1% of men in society…why would she bother opening a book instead of just taking another selfie for Instagram? lol

    @agent p
    "Personally I think you need to account for negative game as piss poor game, or anti-game, e.g. getting suckered by Beta bait thrown out by chicks throws you out of her pool of considered candidates entirely."

    Yup. A lot of the guys who think "he got iois so that's basically a lay" don't stick around to watch the set tank when the guy says something retarded and somehow with all his good-looks and money and BMW, the girl who's an AVERAGE girl who was checking him out like the blonde with that athlete a minute ago, is repulsed by him because he spit anti-game and dried her vagina up and she can go on Tinder and find 500 other guys who all look just as good if not better than that guy and who haven't repulsed her with anti-game YET so they might be better than him.

    Then that guy goes and hits the gym worrying that it's his bodyfat instead of focusing on his game and learning where he went wrong in that sarge. I can't even count how many times girls have shown me their orbiters' texts and profiles and instagram pics etc These guys are WAY better looking than me and driving sick cars and offering them crazy expensive shit I could never offer, but they look at them with disgust and laugh about how lame they are because they don't have game and their texts are like "hey are u mad at me?" "hey want to get dinner?" "if ur mad u can just tell me babe" "hey" "hey" "hey" "hey party tonight u should come out" "ok i get it ur mad at me. Just wish I knew what I did wrong." "hey want to get dinner?"

    It's the funniest/saddest shit in the world. If you're currently fucking girls, tell them to show you their texts from other guys and their Tinder and shit. It's an eye-opener.

    @agent p
    "The forever alone muscle thing is a perfect example of that, they have some great scores on some qualities which should bring up the value, they have low or middling game and they end up having piss poor attraction they can capitalize on."

    That's why I say like, you can't just DISMISS those guys as some "oh that's a small minority". They prove that looks don't really matter, half of those guys have better bodies than most of us will ever have in our LIVES lol

    When we find a guy who can't get laid we say "how would we get this guy laid, what can this 300lbs Warcraft nerd do to get laid?" We don't say "oh well, who cares about the riff-raff we just want to help the guys who are already pretty well-off". PUA was designed for the spergiest retardest bottom of the barrel of men in society to be able to get laid lol

    Everyone else wants to just dismiss the hardcases or tell them to hit the gym and cross their fingers those iois and AIs they get magically translate into lays (when there have been anecdotes in this thread and EVERYONE has their own anecdotes where a girl threw themselves at them and they fumbled it with their anti-game retardedness).

    "Game reduces, accounts for and helps to control for seemingly random variables that could knock you out of the hunt.
    Game allows you to press buttons that open doors
    Game works on the basis of generalizations so there will always be exceptions, but not so many as to undermine the validity of the generalization in the first place.
    RP can keep you from getting blown out because you stepped on a landmine
    Game lets you leverage positive attributes

    Game is art, but it is built upon a solid foundation of skills and understanding a set of principals. Like the artist no good art comes of piss poor brush skills or a lack of insight and understanding except by dumb luck. It resists math."

    This. Like I say: newbies should get their basic grooming and style handled so you don't look totally socially retarded and then let go of the looks thing and focus on learning to build social proof, dominance, tease, push/pull, escalate, etc.

  84. Yareally – “But in 2015 most of the <25yo's that guys are meeting just DON'T have incentive or punsihment to bring more than pussy and feminine energy to the table. If you want more from them, you're asking them to do something they're doing just fine NOT doing"

    Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant reason to avoid sub-25 yo women in my life. If this really is how things are, never marry is the right advice. These "women" are worse than kids, because kids aren't legally considered adults.

  85. “hey are u mad at me?” “hey want to get dinner?” “if ur mad u can just tell me babe” “hey” “hey” “hey” “hey party tonight u should come out” “ok i get it ur mad at me. Just wish I knew what I did wrong.” “hey want to get dinner?”

    Is this real? No exaggeration? This is how men talk to girls?

    I’ve never been that bad. wow.

    No wonder negging works so well.

  86. YaReally: “A buddy viewed his GF as logical and smarter than other girls until I asked him what exactly she’s taught him about life or anything”

    Conversations have several layers. Besides the pure exchange of information or arguments there is an emotional layer, a kind of dance. Women are very good on this layer, so men like YaReally’s friend get hypnotized or sedated by this layer to actually believe the women would say interesting stuff. This get’s especially dramatic in case of Oneitis, up to “my wife is my best friend”.

    What PUA’s do is focus on that layer directly and not care about the overt topic. And if you ask me they are right to do so because that is the only layer where conversation with women is interesting. And yes, that layer can be interesting and fun even if the actual topics are meh.

    I’m coming from a very highly educated background and most women in my social circles have at least a master in something if not a doctors degree. My mother is a Dr. phil. And I never met a women really capable of spitting out these life-changing thoughts and ideas or only some brilliant logic proving some unlikely point. That’s simply not what they are good at, no matter what.

    But that doesn’t mean you couldn’t or shouldn’t demand some level of conversation from women if you want to keep them around. It’s best to get them to qualify to you by trying to prove they aren’t as stupid as you say/think.

    What I think is dangerous though is expecting or believing women would be on the same intellectual level as men. Especially in a Oneitis scenario or some equalist fantasy. Because if you get that, you will fulfill that fantasy by becoming dumber than you are – it’s the only way to met her level.

  87. ” I’ve never wanted to get laid so badly I would set aside that the woman in front of me is only going to stay interesting to me until I’m finished.”

    Stop lying.

    “I could just NOT fuck her and say “no you have to be able to discuss tank strategies in world war 2 before I’ll fuck you””

    bwhaha.

    ” “hey are u mad at me?” “hey want to get dinner?” “if ur mad u can just tell me babe” “hey” “hey” “hey” “hey party tonight u should come out” “ok i get it ur mad at me. Just wish I knew what I did wrong.” “hey want to get dinner?””

    Yeah, this was me. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

  88. Andy – it was me in my first marriage as well. Awful to see in print.

    And lol not lying. I once walked away from a 22yo girl with her hand on my thigh after I installed a car radio for her. She was hot enough, but the more she talked the more she annoyed me. I’d almost say she was running anti-girl game, but thats giving her too much credit. If I’d known she was that stupid up front, I wouldn’t have offered to swap her radio. In mixed company she seemed OK, but I realized that’s because I really wasn’t paying attention to what she was saying when she opened her mouth. With others around it was fine. But alone? I just wanted out. :-p

  89. @hollenhund
    “that so many in the ‘sphere are apparently deeply invested in this narrative about average beta males being pathological, anti-social, solipsistic shitheads with a sense of entitlement.”

    The idea that life owes you rewards for not stepping up and earning them is having a delusional sense of entitlement.

    The idea that you should be able to get a girlfriend without learning to socialize and interacting with people is anti-social entitlement.

    Like what do you want us to say? Oh, poor guys, life is hard so just die alone now you’re justified because it’s hard. If they want to change, the tools are there and they can change. It’s in their ability and it’s their choice to take it on or not.

    “Nevermind that simple logic tells us that it’s precisely extroverted men that are most likely to be attracted to, and also attempt, PUA tactics.”

    …lol I can’t even. I just. lol

    “Look at me, I’m not one of those icky betas! See?” It’s designed to suck up to any woman and any self-convinced alpha who may be listening.

    lol ya that’s my goal. I get so much mad poon from this comment section, you wouldn’t believe it, oh baby come to me damaged manosphere groupies!! lol

    This is why I say you don’t actually WANT to fix your views. You LOVE them, you thrive off the negative victim shit.

    @teddj4g
    “Further, since we are in a parenting thread: do you want the mother of your children to be a dipshit?”

    Do you want your BMW to be red or black? What’s that? You don’t HAVE a BMW? Well c’mon man, when you get your BMW tomorrow, what color do you want it to be? You’re NOT getting a BMW tomorrow? So it’s almost as if it doesn’t really matter WHAT color you want your BMW to be if there aren’t BMWs sitting in your driveway.

    You can want girls to be whatever you want. I want a girl who can just fly to the moon, that would be super when we have kids. Except that’s not out there or is so rare that I should take it as a wonderful blessing if I DO stumble into it, but not expect it from every woman and build up negative mindsets about how all these bitches can’t fly to the moon lol

    “What kind of daily interactions can you have with a live in woman if the depth of her personality is decorating and makeup?”

    Ask the guys in Deadbedrooms.

    “In the context of having children though, there are far more important traits that aren’t so fun but are essential for any chance of success.”

    Ya, they’re super. And you should screen for them while understanding that 1) society incentivies women to have the OPPOSITE of those traits in 2015, and 2) maybe you SHOULDN’T be looking to have kids as soon as possible because most of the women you’re going to meet aren’t going to be quality mother material and maybe you need to put that “married with 2.5 kids by age 35” vision on hold and work on your game so you can meet a LOT of women and try to find girls with some of those quality motherly traits out there in 2015.

    “Put another way: I’ve never wanted to get laid so badly I would set aside that the woman in front of me is only going to stay interesting to me until I’m finished. *shrug*”

    Then you’re a super cool badass and I’m legitimately happy that you had a blessed life where you didn’t have the problem of being as thirsty as like 90% of average dudes are. So let guys like me help those guys because you admit that you can’t even relate to their problems or desperation lol You can’t get them laid, let alone get them a quality girlfriend or wife…PUA can at least get them laid so they can start looking for a quality GF or wife.

    MOST guys don’t get into PUA to just slay tons of poon, they’re nice dudes who get into PUA because they’re hoping to get a girlfriend/wife as soon as possible and not have to go sarge. Then a lot of them find out the whole monogamy LTR thing isn’t what society told them it was and they end up enjoying being single and screening harder for quality LTR material before they settle down again.

    @Jeremy
    “That reads like a concession that you have no argument, you just want others to think that what I’m talking about here is somehow part of the FI.”

    I love you lol

    @teddj4g
    “But you, as an individual man, can expect and get better behavior from individual women. Hell, in a way it works in your favor. If she’s into you, and wants to please you, she’ll learn to keep up with your conversation, or NEXT.”

    Yes, and that’s EXACTLY what PUA teaches men TO do. But we also teach men to have realistic expectations of women and that ya, maybe you want the mother of your kids to have read the Encylopaedia for fun, and that’s super, you should screen for that before you have kids with a chick. But expecting that from some <25yo in a sexy dress that gives you a boner and getting pissed when she hasn't read the Encylopaedia for fun is just silly and negative and going to just make you be disappointed in all women because it's an unreasonable expectation lol

    "Its a form of her qualifying for me: she is proving she is smart enough to understand the things that are important to me. Even if they aren’t important to her."

    Yup. That's why we teach guys to do this. But guys starting out learning pickup are starting from a place of thirsty scarcity, not abundance and IDGAF attitude.

    "Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant reason to avoid sub-25 yo women in my life. If this really is how things are, never marry is the right advice. These "women" are worse than kids, because kids aren't legally considered adults."

    This is what I'm saying. I get that you old married dudes don't know what it's like out there 'cause you aren't in the young hookup/dating scene and you probably don't know guys who are 20+ and still virgins and see how frustrated and depressed and thirsty and on the verge of Elliot rampages, suicide, etc. those guys are and it's awesome that you didn't have to experience that and don't have to help people get through that, but shit is rough for guys in their 20s right now and we're trying to help them navigate REALITY in 2015, not some fantasy you old guys remember about a world that doesn't exist anymore.

    Social media changed everything, even 10 years ago when I started learning PUA this shit was different. I remember when girls didn't even have cell phones or texting and I had to get home phone numbers and if you isolated a girl her friends would just assume she went home and give up after one lap of looking for her etc Change happens FAST and if you aren't out there every week, you're falling behind in what's happening out there.

    @Jeremy
    "It won’t change until men stop being thirsty and raise their standards for commitment. That’s the final, fatal flaw of MGTOW, imo. MGTOW offers nothing to the ladies as a new standard of behavior, it simply says, “No, I won’t interact with you.” "

    I agree. It's like punishing a kid but not telling him how he can avoid the punishment or what better behavior you expect from him in the future. MGTOWs generally seem to just want women to "figure it out" (or to watch their videos and figure it out lol) and seem to prefer to just walk away instead of train them. Which is totally fine, they can do what they want, but I think it would help them to learn a bit of game so that they can have women in their lives on their terms and still be able to walk away and still only have women who get with their program on-board, but just have more access to hotter girls for their dick's sake.

    @CaveClown
    "Is this real? No exaggeration? This is how men talk to girls?"

    I wish it wasn't, because I feel bad for those guys, but I've seen SO many of those exchanges. ANY hot girl has a ton of those conversations in her phone, just ask her to show you what your competition is like or go on Tinder together and watch her swiping guys and look at her messages etc. Girls send me screencaps and shit all the time as we lol at those guys. And these guys are GOOD LOOKING rich dudes with nice cars and shit and these girls are just lol'ing at them because they're so fucking chode. And part of why they're chode is they don't why that girl isn't interested in them because they have looks and money and they thought that would get them girls so they go on these retarded desperate spirals like that because it's supposed to be working and isn't and they have no idea what's going on.

    And they'll keep these guys orbiting because why not? These guys are DYING to orbit them, they consider it a priviledge to get to buy her dinner. These girls will chat with them just to get a free lunch and to drive their nice car etc and not put out. And the guys think they're making progress.

    And these aren't even bitchy cunty girls, they're sweet as sugar to me because I don't act like a chode and they know I won't put up with that shit and I give them the value that they need (emotional rollercoasters, dominance, good sex, teasing, etc). But the way those guys are trying to get with them is so repulsive that those guys reduce themselves to garbage in the girl's eyes the exact same way you read that and probably cringed in repulsion.

    And like that My Humps song says "I say no but they keep giving, so I keep on takin and no we ain't datin" How many guys would turn down a free steak dinner if it were offered to them every single day no strings attached by someone who's saying they want to buy it for you and it makes them happy to be able to buy it for you, day in and day out for years, multiple people offering? Like fine ok I'll eat this delicious free steak, but it doesn't make me "into" you and you're telling me you're okay with that so I guess I'll eat this steak and not feel bad.

    @lh
    "Women are very good on this layer, so men like YaReally’s friend get hypnotized or sedated by this layer to actually believe the women would say interesting stuff. This get’s especially dramatic in case of Oneitis, up to “my wife is my best friend”."

    Yup exactly. He feels GOOD FEELS around her when they talk, and that's great. But realistically, objectively, the amount of things a woman can teach a man about life or anything practical is pretty limited compared to reversing the genders.

    "What PUA’s do is focus on that layer directly and not care about the overt topic."

    Yup. It's all subcomms. You can literally pick women up just making incomprehensible noises or speaking another language they don't understand or just SILENTLY with eye-contact and physicality etc. That's what women respond to and it's how they communicate with eachother.

    "And if you ask me they are right to do so because that is the only layer where conversation with women is interesting. And yes, that layer can be interesting and fun even if the actual topics are meh."

    Yup. The thing is when you get your subcomms handled you can talk about more interesting subjects to you, but understand that it's you teaching a 5yo child about that topic, she's not going to be able to throw brilliant wisdom back at you. Why WOULD she unless she happens to have very specifically studied that topic? She can fuck James Franco because she has a pussy the average woman has no reason to learn about deep topics to have a conversation with you on it lol

    "And I never met a women really capable of spitting out these life-changing thoughts and ideas or only some brilliant logic proving some unlikely point. That’s simply not what they are good at, no matter what."

    Yup. I've hung in highly educated circles and women are awesome at memorizing and regurgitating shit, but forming their own ideas and opinions? Even their own opinions, if they don't have group backing (like a mob of feminists) they'll usually cave and defer to your opinion ESPECIALLY if they like you, because not getting along is bad feels. (whereas we can all argue all day long and get pissed at eachother during the discussion but still grab a beer after and give no fucks)

    "But that doesn’t mean you couldn’t or shouldn’t demand some level of conversation from women if you want to keep them around. It’s best to get them to qualify to you by trying to prove they aren’t as stupid as you say/think."

    Yup. That's what we teach. Screen girls that you want to have in your life longer-term harder than you screen fuckbuddies or one night stands. And screen your future baby mama like a mothafucka.

    But to screen ANY girls you have to be coming from a place of abundance with women instead of scarcity/thirst. And to get to that place of abundance you need to know how to GET girls. And to know how to get girls you need to learn game. And to learn game you need to go out and talk to some hotties and do Field Reports so other guys can help you lol

    Which is why we focus so much on pushing guys to go out.

    "What I think is dangerous though is expecting or believing women would be on the same intellectual level as men."

    It would be GREAT if they are. If you meet a girl that IS, awesome, lock her down. But EXPECTING it by default is just an exercise in frustration.

    "Especially in a Oneitis scenario or some equalist fantasy. Because if you get that, you will fulfill that fantasy by becoming dumber than you are – it’s the only way to met her level."

    lol pretty much this. Oneitis will convince you that everything she says and does is magic and brilliant. How many of you are actually jealous of your buddy's oneitis? Like, it's rare. Usually it's "she's ALRIGHT but I mean, I don't really get why he thinks she's so amazing".

  90. I have a new oneitis.

    I’m in love.

    This is the one, I just know it.

    I confess…it’s me.

    Numero uno till death do us part.

  91. Yareally – not a badass at all. I’ve simply always had standards for my personal realtionships, and I prefer self inflicted restraint over lowering those standards. I spent years in a dead bedrooms marriage, so I was far from a bad ass. I can’t say I had an abundance mentality at all, I simply realized I would only willingly and happily lower my standards so far, and past that point wanking it was the only solution.

  92. @YaReally & @CaveClown

    “you remind me of me. I talk about the problems of the world a lot. Very passionate about it. Most women can’t or won’t keep up with the subjects I care about, wife included.”

    Yup. This is super common. And some of your wives probably ARE interesting, because it benefitted them to learn to be. And I’m sure Rollo’s daughter is interesting because as a Red Pill guy he probably helped encourage her to develop an interesting personality and taught her ways it can benefit her (solipsism).

    And… I have to wonder how much of this is from conditioning men to expect women to be more like men. Sure, you will always find some women who like politics, like male-dominated fields, etc…, but the expectation that women in general will like those things inherently sounds like something only a feminist would dream up.

    In all the stories I’ve read about men getting married, especially later-age marriages, it is the women who more-often-than-not took up something that they do not hold a lifelong interest in to lock down a man. Then, once the commitment is secured, they confess that that subject doesn’t really interest them at all. In some cases I’ve seen the wives start insisting that their husband is doing XX too much, when it was XX activity that led them to meet in the first place.

    Women as a group have a singular biological focus that entails gestation at some point in their lives. Whatever gets them too that goal in the most optimized situation is all they care about. It is only men who have the biological freedom to love activities for the sake of them. So expecting women to have deep interests and world-politics philosophical-level thought purely for the sake of it is expecting every clover to have 4 leaves.

  93. Feminine energy and genuine attraction and interest (for both) is all I expect at this point.

    Maybe that will change in the future, I dunno.

  94. Jeremy – I wonder the same thing. I don’t expect my wife to be like a man with male interests. I expect her to be a human with human interests. Something deeper than pop culture anyway.

    I know a little bit about a whole lot of stuff. (Funny thing about reading the encyclopedia. I did it as a child, A through Z, although I skimmed a lot) I’m willing to chat about any number of subjects other than tech and politics. It just has to he something better than what’s on TV and the weather. I keep hearing women can do anything a man can, so let’s see some intellectual debate!

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