Red Pill Parenting – Part II

Father-Son1

What I’m about to detail here will be a revolutionary act; I’m going to give men some prescriptive advice on how I believe they should go about raising their children from a Red Pill perspective. As most of my readers know I do my best to provide observations and connect dots, from there I expect men (and women) to form their own takes on what I’m seeing and either challenge those observations or develop some actionable practice that best suits their own circumstances.

I’ll be breaking that protocol here, but the premise still applies; what I think might be universally applicable to raising and mentoring the next generation may need to be modified for what your experience and circumstances dictate.

That said, the very idea that I would inform or instruct men (and by association women) on how I think a healthier, more durable generation of men might be developed in a Red Pill awareness is tantamount to being a hate crime today. My suggesting that boys and girls would benefit greatly from a Red Pill aware father is a frightening, seditionary act in a feminine-primary social order.

As things stand on a societal level now, just the mention of Red Pill truths in casual conversation will engender either ridicule or hostility. As Red Pill awareness spreads it will be considered subversive, particularly in a social order founded on the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primary social prioritization.

I don’t have too much positive to say about Roosh these days, but one thing I had to agree with was his recent assessment of how it’s necessary for men to meet in secret gatherings and maintain (as best as possible) a state of constant anonymity if they wish to discuss anything counter to feminine-primary social doctrine. Main stream media in feminine-primary society will characterize this need for anonymity as indicative of cowardice or a lack of conviction; bitter men just contenting themselves in their private anger and poisoning the minds of whomever will listen to them.

They need this characterization for now because men have something to lose. They fear having their bread taken away from them – the same bread that feminine-primary society expects men to provide the very women who would use it to extort a desired complacency from men. Cowardice is rooted in the fear of having something to lose. Once men become largely indifferent to that bread being forthcoming, that’s either when they snap, or that’s when they start a revolution.

ScribblerG (a.k.a. Glenn) had a good reminder for men in the last thread:

Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. At best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself.

I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later, wondering if my daughter would ever realize all I sacrificed to provide for her and her mom? I’d wonder if she’d ever get that I sacrificed being as close to her as her mother is to her for her wellbeing? That her closeness with her mom as a result of having a stay at home mom until she was 5 was a consequence of my efforts, not her Mom’s?

Guess what – nobody wants to hear it. Nobody gives a shit what sacrifices you make to be a good father and provider – it’s all about Mom. It’s all about the kids. Dad’s are at best seen as second best Moms most of the time. And even when we are “in charge”, we can be dismissed as superfluous in myriad ways.

Many men adapt by becoming second mothers and wives in the household – and the entire culture encourages this. Try being a traditional male at parent teacher night or at the pre-school or even the Boy Scout troop…Fatherhood and a family is not what it once was either. Trust me, learn from my experience. Your kids will very likely not appreciate all you’ve done for them.

Of course, I excuse all the fundo-christian-demi-god-uber-alpha-ripped-11 inch cock-men of steel™ here from this commentary. For you guys, it’s 1956 and your life is like Wally and the Beav…

Just like men subscribe to two sets of books – old and new social rule sets that contradict the other – I think our ideas of marriage fall into this same contradiction. When marriage was a social contract and not so much a legal one involving the state, the old set of books applied well to that institution. This old set of rules about marriage and what men could expect from that largely socially-enforced institution worked well and in a complementary paradigm. From the Little House on the Prairie days up to the post-war era, the first set of books worked well with regard to marriage and fatherhood.

After the sexual revolution, the second set of books took social preeminence. Optimizing Hypergamy and all of the social and legal paradigms that make it the foundation of our present social order took priority. Yet, both men and women still cling to the old order, the first set of rules when it comes to a man’s role as a husband and a father, and simultaneously expect him to adopt and promote the feminine-primary interests of the new feminine-primary order.

Fathers are expected to follow the edicts of conventional masculinity with regards to their provisioning for a family, but are also expected to adopt, embrace and internalize their popularized role of being superfluous, ridiculous or even angry and abusively resistant to the second set of rules.

In other words, the expectation is that he should  be happy in his sacrificial role of provider, happy in his lack of appreciation for it or his presence, and happy to have the ‘village’ of society raise his children into the next crop of confused, frustrated adults while he’s doing it. He should be happy in his presence being devalued, but be held responsible for his lack of presence that his sacrifices demands.

Oh, and he should also feel a sense of smug pride when he see another man being pilloried for the same lack of his superfluous presence in his family’s life.

Raising Kids

I’m sure all of this sounds like a bridge too far for most men. Yes, the prospect of becoming a father is depressing, and I can see how these truths would make the average man despondent about becoming a new parent. However, I feel it’s incumbent upon me that I’m honest with men about what they’re up against before I advocate how to be a Red Pill aware father.

You will never be appreciated for your sacrifices, and certainly not while you’re making them. Your presence is only as superfluous as you allow it to be. While you will never be appreciated for it in any measurable sense, you will be liable for it, so my advice is to make the most of it in a Red Pill respect. Your reward, your motivation, for being a Red Pill parent and a positively masculine example in your kids’ lives needs to come from inside yourself because it will never be rewarded by a feminine-primary social order. If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding.

Understand now, the Feminine Imperative wants you to be despondent about your role.

Understand this, your presence, your influence, will only be as valuable or as appreciated as you are willing to make it to yourself. Your Red Pill aware influence in your kids’ lives needs to matter to you first, because it will never be appreciated in your time, and in fact will be actively, hostilely, be resisted by a world saturated in feminine-primacy.

Being a mother and birthing a child is a constantly lauded position today. By virtue of being a mother, women are rewarded and respected in society. Men must add fatherhood to their burden of performance just to avoid the societal default of being vilified.

The Feminine Imperative wants you to give up and allow the ‘village’ to raise your sons and daughters to perpetuate the cycle of the second set of rules. It wants you to feel superfluous; the Feminine Imperative’s maintenance relies on you feeling worthless. The reason men commit suicide at four times the rate of women is due exactly to this sense of male-worthlessness cultivated by the Feminine Imperative.

In Preventive Medicine I detail part of our present feminine-primary conditioning and how the imperative raises boys to be Betas and girls to be caricatures of Strong Independent Women®. Part of this was based on the essay Teach Your Children Well and the early ages at which this begins. The first, most primary truth you need to accept as a father is that if you don’t teach your children Red Pill truths there is an entire western(izing) world that is already established to raise them in your absence.

‘The Village’ will raise your kids if you don’t. You will be resisted, you will be ridiculed, you will be accused of every thought-crime to the point of being dragged away to jail in your imparting Red Pill awareness (in the future I expect it to be equated with child abuse). The Village will teach your boys from the most impressionable ages (5 years old) to loath their maleness, to feel shame for being less perfect than girls and to want to remake their gender-identity more like girls.

The Village will raise your daughters to perpetuate the same cycle that devalues conventional masculinity, the same cycle that considers men’s presence as superfluous and their sacrifices as granted expectations. It will raise your daughters to over-inflate their sense of worth with unearned confidence at the expense of boys as their foils. It will teach them to openly embrace Hypergamy as their highest authority and to disrespect anything resembling masculinity as more than some silly anachronism.

The good news is that for all of these efforts in social engineering, the Feminine Imperative is still confounded by basic biology and the psychological firmware evolved into us over millennia. That basic root reality is your greatest advantage as a father.

Raising Boys

I’m often asked when I believe would be the best time to introduce a boy to the Red Pill. A lot of guys with teenage sons want to hand them a copy of The Rational Male before they hit 18, or maybe when they’re 15, some even say 12 is really a good time. While it’s flattering for me to hear men tell me how they gave their teenage sons a copy of my book, I have to think that this is too late.

I’ve been a father to a teenage daughter for a while now and in my 20’s I was a mentor (big brother figure) to a young man I watched grow from a 10 year old boy to a 30’s man today. One thing I’ve learned from dealing with kids as I have is that the Feminine Imperative conditions children from the moment they can understand what’s playing on a TV or in a movie. By the time that kid is 10 they already have the ideological conditioning that came from a decade of meme’s and messaging taught to them by schools, Disney, Nickelodeon, popular music, feminine-primary parenting from their friends parents, even your own extended family members.

By the time that kid is 10 they’ve already internalized the stereotypes and social conditioning of the Blue Pill and they will start parroting these memes and behaving and believing in accordance with that conditioning. By the time they are in their tweens and beginning to socially interact with the opposite sex, the Blue Pill feminine-primary conditioning will be evident to any man with a Red Pill lens to hear and see it. That Blue Pill internalized ideology will seem natural and logical to them even though they couldn’t tell you how they came to their formative beliefs.

The time to start exemplifying Red Pill awareness in a parental capacity is before you even have kids. As I detailed in the first of these posts, an internalized Game that results from strong Red Pill awareness and a positive, dominant Frame control are imperative before you even consider monogamy. That Frame becomes the foundation for your parenting when your children come along.

I realize this isn’t exactly helpful for men who came to Red Pill awareness after their kids were in their teens, but it needs to be addressed for men considering becoming a father. Ideally you want to impart that same Red Pill awareness during a boy’s formative years. Children completely lack the capacity for abstract thought until their brains fully form and they learn to develop it. The age of 5 is the time when kids are most impressionable and learn the most, but they do so by watching behavior. So it’s imperative for a Red Pill father to demonstrate positive, conventional masculinity during these years.

Include your son in male-space, where only men are allowed to participate. Even if all he does is sit and play, it’s important for him to understand male tribalism. Eventually, as he gets older, he’ll feel more a part of that collective. In a feminine-primary world that is bent on his devaluation as a male human it’s important for him to feel valued in male-space and to institute his own male-space as he gets older.

Within this male-space your son needs to learn about his eventual burden of performance.I’d also advise you institute some kind of rite of passage for him from being a boy to being a man. There needs to be a delineation point at which his manhood is marked. This is important because it not only teaches him to value his masculinity, but also to accept the responsibilities of his burden of performance.

Most Beta men are uncomfortable even calling themselves ‘men’, so the earlier a kid understands this the better he is in accepting his manhood. The Feminine Imperative is all too ready to teach him his masculinity is a mask he wears; something he puts on and not the ‘real’ him. He needs to proudly reject this notion that his masculinity is a show.

He needs to learn that men and women are different and only deserving of earned respect, not a default respect granted to the female sex. Eventually he needs to learn to accept his own dominance and mastery in a world that will tell him his sex is a scourge on society.

Your presence in his life is an absolute necessity if you are to thwart the efforts of fem-centrism. I was asked about Red Pill fathering in my last Christian McQueen interview and my first inclination was to say do things with your son. Even if that’s playing chess, being the man, his model for masculinity is vitally important and to impart this to him you need to have a mutual purpose. As I’ve written before, women talk, men do. Men get together socially with a purpose, an action, a hobby, a sport, a creative endeavor, etc. and then they communicate while working towards that purpose.

Your son must learn this from a very early age, particularly when he’s likely to be forced into feminine-primary social structures and conditioned to communicate like girls do in school as well as in popular media. One of the tragedies of our age is a generation of Blue Pill men raising their sons to adopt feminine-primary communication preferences because they themselves had no experience with conventional masculinity. They can’t teach what they don’t understand.

Demonstrate, do not explicate is true of dealing with women, but it is also an imperative of Red Pill parenting. Your son (and daughter) needs to see his mother’s deference to your dominant Frame and beneficent authority. He needs to understand on a rudimentary level that his mother responds to your positively masculine Frame. Again this is imperative since your kids will see a much different narrative being displayed in popular culture and their schooling.

Show him how a man presents himself, how a man reacts to a threat, how a man commands a dog, how a man interacts with, and helps, other men he values. Do not think that you’ll start teaching him Red Pill awareness when he’s old enough to understand it. By then it’s too late, he’s resistant to it and thinks his Beta Game is more appropriate. Your son will follow your lead, but that must start from day one, not age 12. I have a good friend now who’s 16 year old son is literally following the same path his Beta father; he’s moved in with his estranged ex wife because he was closer to his ONEitis girlfriend. Now she’s bailed on him and he’s stuck with his neurotic mother.

The consequences of a Blue Pill conditioned mindset also start early. I’ve seen 10 year old boys despondent over not having a girlfriend. I’ve counseled a girl who’s former teenage boyfriend stabbed and killed her new boyfriend 32 times because she was his ONE. They get ONEitis because they are taught to be predisposed to it.

As your son moves into his teenage years that connection you began in his formative years should strengthen. You can begin to introduce him to Red Pill awareness, but in all likelihood you’ll notice him using his own Red Pill lens when it comes to dealing with girls. His grasping the fundaments of women’s dualistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy and how this will be used against him in the future is something imperative that he learns later.

This is the time to reinforce that Red Pill sensitivity and capitalize on his own awareness by introducing him to Red Pill ideas he wasn’t aware of. Bluntly, overtly declaring Red Pill truths might make sense to you, but plucking out bits of his own Red Pill observations and expanding on them in his teen years will probably be received better and more naturally.

One thing I know about teenage boys and girls is that if you try to tell them something profound they roll their eyes and blow you off, but if you wait for the right moment to let them come to that thing you want them to learn on their own then they’re receptive to it. Your demonstrating Red Pill awareness doesn’t stop when they’re teens.

Raising Girls

Much of what I’ve outlined for raising boys would cross over into raising a daughter, however there are some differences in approach. Exemplifying a Red Pill ideal, and demonstrations of positive, dominantly masculine Frame control are still the highest priority, but more so is the modeled behavior of the girl’s mother toward you and that Frame. If your wife resists, ridicules or mocks your Frame, this is the lesson your daughter will be taught about masculinity. You must model her perceptions of masculinity while your wife models the aspects of femininity – for better or worse.

A lot of how you approach raising a daughter can be based on your Red Pill understanding of how to deal with women, and based on much of the same basic gender-complementary foundations. The same Game principles you would use with women are actually founded on behavior sets that little girls learn and enjoy while they’re growing up. Amused Mastery is a prime example of this.

You will notice that root level Hypergamy manifests itself in girls at a very young age. In Warren Farrell’s book, Why Men Are The Way They Are he notes that girls as young as 7 already have a a definition of the (celebrity) “boys they’d like to kiss and the boys they’d like to marry.” No doubt girls’ acculturation influences their preferences, but the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks archetypes are part of their mental firmware.

As a father, your primary role will be one of modeling the provider security seeking aspect of the Hypergamous equation. While that comfort and control is necessary it tends to be a trap for most Betas. The challenge most Beta fathers fail at is embracing and owning the very necessary Alpha / Dominant role that makes up the other side of that equation.

The challenge is exemplifying Amused Mastery with your daughter, but in such a way that it balances Alpha dominance and control with rapport, security and comfort. In my post Myth of the Good Guy I make the case that adult women don’t really look for this balance in the same man. Alphas are for fucking, Betas are for long term security, and men who think they can embody both are neither sought after nor really believable. The root of this AF/BB mental separation of Hypergamous purpose-specific men can be traced back to the impression of masculinity that woman’s father set for her in her formative years.

Lean too far toward Alpha dominance and you become the asshole abuser who domineered poor mom while she was growing up. Lean too far to the Beta, permissive, passive and feminine side of the spectrum and the future men in her life will be colored by your deferring to the feminine as authority – thus placing her in the role of having to create the security she never expects men to have a real command of.

The challenge of raising a boy is modeling and exemplifying the positive, dominant masculine role you want him to boldly embrace in spite of the same fem-centric world arrayed against yourself. The challenge of raising a girl is embodying the dominant masculine man you will eventually be proud to call your son in law. Your daughter needs to be able to identify that guy by comparing him to the masculine role you set for her.

Most contemporary men (that is to say 80%+ Beta men) are very uncomfortable in asserting dominance with their daughters for fear of being perceived as misogynists according to their feminine-centric acculturation. The zeitgeist of this era’s approach to fathers parenting girls is one of walking on eggshells around their little princesses. The fear is one of avoiding instilling a crushing of their independence or limiting their future opportunities by being more permissive with girls. The gender-correct hope is that in doing so they’ll all go on to be the future doctors and scientists society needs, but that permissiveness and coddling does them no favors in the long run.

If you were uncomfortable experimenting with Red Pill concepts while you were single, you’ll be even more so in raising a daughter. The most important impression you need to leave her with is that men and women are different, but complementary to the other. She needs to know that your masculine dominance is beneficial to both her and her mother, and your personal mastery of you conditions and environment as an aid to her and the family. She needs to understand that girls and women are, sometimes, excluded from male-spaces, particularly if you also have a son. In fact it’s boon if you have a son to teach while you bring up a daughter as she’ll see his upbringing as a model for positive masculinity.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

505 comments on “Red Pill Parenting – Part II

  1. It is fascinating how you Rollo are teaching American Men what is actually common knowledge and a lifestyle in more traditional societies. I am originally from Albania. And everything you’re talking about is what men naturally are, over there.

    My culture embraces gender roles and the complementary nature of those roles. Men proudly state they are Men for their manly attributes, and so do women. Society has social conventions that support and strengthen both masculinity and femininity. The burden of performance is part of our identity, we know what we have to do and we do it. In return we are rewarded with respect and honor, and women look up to us. We take risks, and share the rewards with our women, they complement us by balancing our (at times) self-destructive behavior. They are there to help us recover when we need a break.

    If I’d use today’s American masculinity as a benchmark, I’d go as far as to say that at least 60% men in my home country are Alpha. That’s because the culture is an Alpha Male culture!

    Albanian men are taught how to be alpha but also how to provide security and provisioning.

    Something Rollo hasn’t covered much is that women too, have some burden of performance in a complementary type of relationship. They hold the burden of morality. Morality in regards to her man and morality towards her children. When the kids are young, during those formative years until they hit puberty they will spend most of the time with their mother. Thus, it is imperative that she holds the best values that you expect your woman to have, because those values are passed to the children, due to the extensive exposure they have with their mother during their childhood.

    A woman has to respect her man, so that her daughter knows how to treat a man. A woman who is loyal to her man teaches her daughter how to control her hypergamous impulses.

    What I would suggest men here is for them to make friends from these traditional societies, and have their kids spend a few weeks over there. I assure you that boys will be able to wash off some of the betaisation/blu pill from the culture here.

  2. @ETA

    Something Rollo hasn’t covered much is that women too, have some burden of performance in a complementary type of relationship. They hold the burden of morality…

    That is a great way to put that, and it says a lot about why traditional American values, the traditional morality of America is simply nonexistent nowadays. Western women have abandoned that burden, declaring it unfit for them.

    Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if most men suddenly decided that their bowling/golf/fishing with friends was more important than working hard to keep up civilization. That’s effectively what women in the west have done.

    1. @Jeremy
      I agree. Women have been indoctrinated to be shit. You can get one to take her panties off, but God forbid she fixes a man some fried okra. They get it from the propaganda and their family(usually there mothers).

  3. Not only have women given up any semblance of burden of performance or responsibility, but they actively take pride in having done so.

  4. Rollo, as a father (who went through the Family Law wars and remarried, luckily, a RP aware Latin American woman, kids from both sets of adventures)…all I can say is…I teared up reading this.

    Brother, you will go down in AmericanaHistoria as a nearly Cicero-like logician, orator of truth (via internet) and historian of our culture. You are a national treasure, and I mean that. You are the functional equivalent to the earliest (often quietest and sometimes unheralded), sincere Civil Rights advocates.

    In the future, men…PEOPLE, will look back upon the corpus of your work and study it, admire it and reflect upon it. It’s remarkable on so many levels.

    May God bless you with a long, prosperous life.

  5. “I think, with all things, men need to begin an endeavor with the ending in mind.”

    children born today will come of age in a centrally-planned world. in many ways it’s already here.

    raising them to be red pill aware in a time when reality will be a boot stepping on the human face is a solid goal to shoot for.

    No man, group of men or supercomputer algorithm can see the ending, but the .1% are on their way to owning all of it and they will not give up without a fight to the death.

    Where will humanity’s savior come from? A red pill home? A welfare shack? Some single mother urban ghetto that has yet to be created?

    This most alpha of the alphas, the one who will lead us all to victory against our hidden masters, he could be the product of a rigorously disciplined red pill father or just as easily, the unloved, unguided bastard son of some master pua.

    raising a red pill child seems like it comes from the old set of books. not in regards to the FI, but to the very idea of freedom as a birthright.

    virtue, honor, leaders of men… these are old book stuff. the squid has us all. it has no honor and certainly no virtue. it engages in asymmetrical warfare. it will do anything to keep its power. anything. and only the most ruthless, cunning, machaivellian man will be able to dethrone it on behalf of mankind.

    this Super Alpha, the leader of leaders, may know who he is growing up, but most likely he will not. he will be the Black Swan. no one will see him coming.

    are leaders born or made? does it take both the right genetics and the right guidance? did the greatest self made men have the advantage and privilege of guidance? or did they pull themselves out of the muck and will the world to fit their ideas despite having no honorable man to teach them the right way?

    the opposite of what Rollo recommends is to impregnate every young beautiful healthy woman you can, leave her to raise the child and let natural selection work its magic.

    the greatest man who ever lived is swimming around in some guy’s ballbag right now.

  6. @Jeremy

    Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if most men suddenly decided that their bowling/golf/fishing with friends was more important than working hard to keep up civilization. That’s effectively what women in the west have done.

    Again…excellent!

  7. Mothers shit testing?
    100% absofuckinglutely. My Dad is pretty Beta in a lot of ways would tolerate a lot of her bullshit. So she would let shit roll downhill to my brother and I. Her narcissistic tendencies would be all aflame as she would triangulate and shit test all day long. It went into overdrive when I got married, for a while there I got some soft shit testing from both mothers.

    But when baby number one came along, I put my foot down with both Mothers and set up some hard boundaries. “You respect me, you respect my marriage, you respect my decisions and you’ll get to see your brand new grandson all the time. Fuck with me, and I will ghost with the kid”.

    worked like a charm, calmed both of them down lots. Ma-in-law became a whole new woman in a lot of ways, it entirely recast her relationship with her daughter, my wife. I think ma-in-law had needed some pimp hand for the past 40 years as she came from a military family where her dad was a base commander who did not suffer fools. she responded very well to me being hard and assertive. She was not getting any Alpha vibe from her deep dyed BP husband. Nice guy but full old rules oneitis etc.

    My own ma is still however somewhat batshit crazy and now headed fully into senility so she still likes to stir things up. These days I simply swat it down briskly if only for my kids sake. I don’t like them being exposed to too much crazy time in a month.

  8. @fleezer, it’s funny you mention inseminating as many women as you can.

    I have my own squad, they are mine, they are working well, but I often wonder if it would serve my prime directive, e.g. to propagate my genes, if I were to donate sperm to a bank.

    On the one hand I can get more copies out there, on the other hand I hate to give some single lesbian mommy any agency within the FI by offering high quality baby batter for hire.

    I’m so good, why wouldn’t I want more of me?

    Thoughts?

  9. @ETA – Keep reading, start with the links at the top that take you through the best of year one etc and keep ploughing through and get back to us…

  10. I have descanted on this 1000x but I would not trust sperm banks or their promises of anonymity. Oh they mean it. They’ll defend it if sued. Their business model goes to shit if donors can’t stay hidden. But the clinics could lose. Or the laws could change and their archives could be forced open. They have in some countries and now donor info is available so you risk being hit up for however many sproglets your jizz has germinated. Your kids, your problem, hilarity ensues. See the Oprah story where a bunch of women used one dude’s Aryan-by-choice sperm and found their sons had autistic tendencies (which men transmit). There was talk of hunting him down to make him pay, and despite the best efforts of the clinic to resist, the bastard got outed anyway. Don’t know if he got sued, the article said no, but that was a couple years ago.

    I don’t trust the cloud either. Don’t need some face-fungused pimploid jacking my shit and offering it back to me for $1000 or whatever.

  11. @agent p

    If your DNA is all you want to pass on to the next generation, you’ll miss out on all the satisfaction Rollo described in seeing his daughter argue his own points for him in front of fem-centric-indoctrinated girls. And you may end up contributing to single-motherhood.

    1. @Jeremy, it’s not enough to just pass on your DNA. Any Beta can bang a girl and do that, and then according to Blue Pill Darwinians win the ‘game’.

      Your DNA might be the prime directive of Hypergamy, but your passing on information and life skills (or lack thereof) is the real test.

  12. Since discovering the manosphere, I have been absolutely fascinated by the discussions concerning ” dna ” and passing on ” genetic codes ‘ or whatever. It’s a large part of multiple discussions.

    Jeremy is more in line with my line of thought.

    I’ve never given any deep thought to ” passing on my dna ” or inseminating as many women as possible. In fact, my goal was not to inseminate large numbers of women.

    …but some of them were asking for it. Lol.

    Unless your talking about cloning yourself, there will be another set of dna and chromosomes involved. Important to be selective if that’s your goal, I guess.

    Maybe there’s something wrong with me or the people I grew up with and have associated with most of my life. Whatevs…

    It is very interesting though.

    I had a coworker once named Kevin. Kevin was Irish. He was a ” ginger ” and he was huge ( not really ” fat ” ) and barrel chested. He always had a beard during the years I’d known him.

    He asked me if I knew why he had red hair once. I shrugged and said because one or both of his parents carried the gene for red hair.

    He then regaled me with information about Vikings invading Ireland and raping and pillaging, hence his size and hair color. I could tell he took all of this very, very seriously.

    I reminded him that he wasn’t a Viking, but a dude from Redbank New Jersey. He was insulted. Geeezzzz, so I apologized.

    Folks take this stuff seriously, so I’m of the mind that if that’s important enough to remain in your head so securely then I am good with it.

    It’s still fascinating though.

  13. should I expect appreciation for my performance?

    because I don’t.

    rather, what I expect is that she’ll have the humility to know when she has a good thing going and the intelligence to stay out of the way. To not interfere.

    I wouldn’t expect appreciation from my kids either.

    what I expect from my kids is them accepting the burden of their own performance.

    if they accept that then my job as a father is done.

    expecting appreciation seems like a cop out and an attempt to get out of the burden of performance.

  14. expecting appreciation seems like search for validation.

    seems like that validation should come internally.

    raising a child to be better than the mother or the father just as I am better than my father.

    leaving the next generation better than the generation before it is a Legacy I can be proud of, no appreciation required

  15. I’m not trying to say that any individual DNA is meaningless, Blaximus. Obviously, getting cuckolded sucks. But I think it sucks because your time & body sacrifice in raising something that wasn’t your own cannot be undone. Realistically a man is fertile long into his old age, so if a woman cuckolds you, she has not excluded you from reproducing your own DNA. You still have a shot at passing on DNA. The injustice in cuckoldry is that you were sacrificing for a lie, a deception.

    I’m just wondering, I think like you are, if there isn’t much more satisfaction in passing on your ideas and ways of seeing things to your kids. Ideas and viewpoints are actually more indestructable than people in many ways. Instilling these things into a child into their adulthood must feel as close to reproduction a man can feel.

  16. Blaximus:

    Dominating the mother is a key experience? Please elaborate. I’m trying to understand your pov, even if I disagree.

    The difference is: do you do what pleases your mother to get what you want or does your mother please you to get something from you. The usual question of dominance.

  17. Jeremy,

    ” I’m just wondering, I think like you are, if there isn’t much more satisfaction in passing on your ideas and ways of seeing things to your kids. Ideas and viewpoints are actually more indestructable than people in many ways. Instilling these things into a child into their adulthood must feel as close to reproduction a man can feel.”

    My thoughts precisely.

  18. Heh, coincidentally, I’m listening to Cat Stevens sing “Father and Son” on Youtube as I read this post..making notes for future children and keeping all this in mind.

  19. The purpose of patriarchy was to not to just pass on DNA, but to pass on a legacy, to have not just descendants, but a dynasty.

    If all you do is pass on your DNA, yes, you are indeed a Darwinian winner, but you are a cultural loser. You have children, but you have no “house.”

  20. @ Caveclown

    I agree entirely on your assessment of appreciation. All I expect now is admiration and respect. If appreciation comes it is a secondary consideration from the wife and children.

    And in regards to passing on DNA I always felt it came secondary to the primary goal of having a primary female partner. And after the children come then the responsibility for raising them commences.

  21. This article really speaks to me. Unfortunately I came to the Red Pill when my son was in his early 20s. Up til then both of us were fully steeped in the FI. I was an expendable second class citizen from the day he was born, and I accepted it as the natural order of things. My question is, now that he is in his mid twenties, how do I reach him? He simply does not believe me when I try to drop red pill hints to him. Fortunately he is a good, hardworking kid, but I can easily see him following the same blue pill path that I did for so long.

  22. Respect vs appreciation.

    I understand where you guys are coming from concerning appreciation. I assume you consider appreciation as a form of respect combined with a sense of thankfulness. I intended to draw a strong distinction between this concept of appreciation and a definition of appreciation involving some sort of celebration….to help clarify the freedom of autonomy and personal reliance for anyone needing that clarification.

    Sincere appreciation is manifested by actions not words. Words are empty and meaningless unless their meaning is substantially confirmed by action. Otherwise they are nothing more than lies, scams, or superficial imposters of reciprocation. Sincere appreciation cannot exist without a healthy respect for reality, understanding and respect for who and what we really are.

    Humans are animals constituted with gender differentiated innate characteristics. Those differing characteristics define the very fundamental sexual aspect of our existence. Our existence is best enjoyed without attempts to distort the realities of what we are. I know you guys all know what I’m saying and I’m preaching to the choir. However, a lot of what I’ve read here keeps me on a realistic track. I hope some of what I’ve written helps others in the same way. I guess this is a process of different guys seeing things from slightly different angles, understanding different details, sharing different experiences or communicating the same things with different styles. Anyway it is all great. It is one hell of a very much “appreciated” and needed brotherhood.

  23. @CaveClown – Horseshit. All social relationships have a give and take to them – this is the nature of any relationship. You will and do expect respect from your children and don’t kid yourself or me about it.

    What the fuck is wrong with you people? Is this a LARPING festival where you all think you are ubermen in some fantasy game where you pretend you are above normal human emotions and need? Of course you want to at a minimum be treated with respect and some level of appreciation for being a good father. Why is this even arguable?

    I’m out, this is getting stupid.

  24. @scribblerg

    I didn’t get it? Did I come across as BP, or just new to community?
    In that case,
    I have both Rollo’s Books, done reading the second one. Still have to finish the first one.
    I use RTM for high level knowledge, while for hands-on game I’m mostly on goodlookingloser.
    I have gone through almost all 4 years best essays and have been following RTM for almost a year.

  25. I made it to the first clause of the first post in this thread:

    Maybe you should be prescriptive more often!!!

    We would love more prescriptive analysis on marriage from you to use over at Married Red Pill.

  26. “If you don’t think you will ever find being a parent intrinsically rewarding, get a vasectomy now because it will never be extrinsically rewarding”

    Being a man and being a great father is like being an artist or a musician. The best perform for the fulfillment of the performance itself, not for any external reward or recognition. This is why the best art and music is the result of personal commitment rather than personal concern. The artist ‘looses himself’ by initiating and focusing all energy into the creative process. Enjoyment is experienced in doing. This is why great performance is never a burden. The results of great works are commodified but commodification is never the origin or impetus of any great work. The creative process including the struggle involved is the fulfillment. It is a form of self fulfillment equal to no other. The greatest creators are their own most thorough critics. In this sense each man is potentially his own best judge. No other judge has the authority to provide ultimate approval.

    What use is the approval of others if you don’t approve of yourself?

  27. It is true that social relationships should have a give and take component to them. Undeniable.

    What’s also true is that all men have emotions.

    Okay, I’ll climb on the psychiatrist couch for a few minutes….

    My mother was not affectionate with me as a child. As far as ” affection ” from women goes, I was fortunate enough to have sisters, aunts, cousins and female friends who gave and showed me affection. Still, it made me look at my mom always and think, well wtf???

    When I was younger, I just buried any feelings about the lack of affection from the woman who birthed me. Buried it so deep, that I thought the feelings vanished. Good riddance.

    But my relationship with my mom affected the way I processed ” relationships ” totally. I became quick to sever any relationship I had ( social mostly ) that made me feel unappreciated or disrespected. I became overly sensitive to actions of other people. But I never showed emotion about situations.

    A man holds certain people in his life in high esteem and love. This is part of our programming. We also rationally expect reciprocation because this is what we would do. We would reciprocate.

    When reciprocation doesn’t come, men will have an emotional reaction INSIDE. We all will experience this. It’s human nature unless there is some psychological damage somehow.

    Yet we react in varying degrees.

    I learned the hard lesson of adjusting expectations. It’s almost a defense mechanism.

    In the quest to be a good father, most men will do whatever it takes to provide for offspring. To expect reciprocation, whether you call it appreciation or respect, can be a risky and emotional proposition. Many of us will have to come to a realization via an emotional response, even if we keep it inside.

    Now, the good news.

    Children can be taught what ” respect ” is. It behooves fathers to take on this responsibility because a woman’s idea of respect can be unstable and shifty. From birth your child(ren) are highly susceptible to your influence. Use that to your ultimate advantage always. You get to do the steering if you will take the wheel.

    Now back to my ” Mommy doesn’t love me ” story…

    I dug deep inside in an effort to understand and resolve my feelings of lovelessness from my mom. It was painful and ugly because it affected me for some 30 years, even though I ignored it fully, or so I thought. If not for my father I might have become a serial killer or something. I looked at my mom as a ” woman ” rather than as ” mom “. She had issues with expressing love courtesy of her upbringing. Also, she seems to have been not at all thrilled with becoming a mother at 22, and lacked guidance in how to care for a child.

    So I understand my mom better now. She has changed with age ( they all do..) so my choice was to grasp what happened, feel the emotion, and move the fuck on. I’m better for it. Can’t go back 50 years and change anything, sooooo….

    Appreciation. damn. I expect my boss to show appreciation. I expect the bum I gave money to, to show appreciation. I expect the 400 pound bitch I held the door open for at the mall to show appreciation. My family? I don’t COUNT on it. I don’t have feelings about it. I do what I do because I am a man. I appreciate myself. : ) Also, 400 pound bitches never show appreciation for holding doors open for their behemoth asses.

    Respect. I expect respect to be given upon my earning it. I keep my word to you. I protect you. I show you respect. I reasonably look for some reciprocation. I don’t necessarily EXPECT reciprocation, but I will deal with disrespect swiftly.

  28. I believe women’s appreciation towards her man, depends on the burden of performance.
    Whether it is the tingle appreciation, or the ATM appreciation factors.
    When I’m appreciated in a woman’s eyes -due to Tingles- she shows it by unlimited amount of BJs (no contract signed ).
    Daughters appreciation for Dads, comes in two forms ,1, how she saw her Mother treats her Dad .2, how much money dad gave her. After all, they are both little girls and they both love conditionally.
    My suggestion is, fathers should take over raising the boy when he is 12, why? It’s because when he is old and not performing, he’s fucked (thanks to Mom,and she will be the first to dump him).
    The girl! Should be left to Mother , it’s not worth it to waste any time on a girl.
    Mother/ daughter are the same, they will love you conditionally .
    Ps,
    Try cut off funding to your daughters and see what happens.
    Ps2,
    I’m so happy I never had kids /wife. My DNA or legacy ? Isn’t that another way for women to make you perform. (shaming old single man AND no kids too).

  29. great read and those who read all of it would agree i love your takebon red pill parenting however what would one do in the case of the love at first sight bitchy at last sight girlfriend/wife since she seems to be receptive at first only to realize it’s all deceptive in its entirety creating a huge thick wall against this red pill parenting

  30. OK, I need some help here. Probably a common area where a lot of guys like me get tripped up.

    Got my first post-divorce lay last weekend. It was time. Less than two months since the divorce. Turned down some other opportunities. This one was good enough.

    Got a phone number at an out of town event a couple of weeks ago. Was a fairly easy get. Apparently she had been eyeing me up. Texted her, asked her if she wanted to talk or anything. She invites me to a festival in her neck of the woods.

    I have kind of figured out at this point if she wants to get together without talking she is DTF. So I go to the festival, she’s fine, it’s fun, she invites me over to her place. So I look for my opening, we escalate and do it. Hooray for me! She didn’t even know my last name until after we’d done it.

    Now my ex was my first, so I really have limited other experience. So I had some focusing issues with the actual sex, since I’m doing it with this different woman instead of the ex who I had a comfort level with and 10 years of experience with. For a guy like me, still going through divorce stuff, understandable, but I need to keep my focus there.

    She was not perfect in bed herself, gave me instruction on something I really can’t change and wound up being very distracting. Kind of changed personality after as well, got a little clingy. Not full on, but a little. So I spend the night and I’m out in the morning. Neither of us has contacted each other since.

    Now she has kids (I didn’t know until I got there), I have kids, we live two hours apart, neither of us is moving within the next 5 years. So I have a gentlemen’s out if she calls back and I’m done. But I would want to be careful here with anything more than occasional sex. She’s interesting, but I’m not sure how I’d fit in, and she’s similar to the ex in some ways that make me leery. Still, she was a fine first.

    My statement and question would be that this is where a lot of guys like me get tripped up. Finally get the game to get some, then we stop or get overwhelmed, don’t have a good frame, and get the same crappy outcome. Because we start getting laid and then we quit working or don’t have game to go further.

    So I’ve started doing better, but I’m starting to get into faster water here and I need better game, start stepping it up. Where to go?

  31. While, all this being true, what should young red pill men, who haven’t tied the knot do? This is great for people who already have children, but personally, i can’t ignore the elephant in the room – That marriage and long term commitment are simply a loosing proposition for a guy in the current circumstances. Most people who are doing so are doing so from a frame of desperation and neediness.

    Why would you want to marry her if you know, that her desire towards you depends on your capacity to emulate being a credit card? I’m not a father so i don’t know how it feels, but right now, i just don’t feel the need of being one at all. I can see the evolutionary need to protect your own seed, but why do i have to provide for a woman in order to provide for our children?

    If you’re single, don’t get married. Prevention is better than cure – always.

  32. Rollo: “…there will always be a desire in men and women to characterize Alpha in terms of what best suits themselves, or in terms of what they think should best serve their concept of what a pro-social role for an Alpha should look like.”

    I’ll happily take take that hint and it surely is right and it should be considered by everyone here, especially when it comes to fighting for hierarchies in the comments. Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic.

    But I don’t think the tendency to define alpha as what suits oneself constitutes an intellectual fallacy. The therapeutic task we do here is about identifying what elements of alpha are already there in our personalities, to connect to your “inner alpha” and build on it. The way to success is more about building on your strengths than eliminating your weaknesses.

    So everyone here should identify his “natural alphaness” and I think almost every man will have such aspects. What needs fixing and that’s why we are here is why these things didn’t prevail so far or to bring them to good use out of understanding them and their value.

    In when it comes to alpha masculinity we all know how this get’s shamed in society and many fall for perceiving these traits as weaknesses and not strengths.

    In case of the anti-social “useless badboy” I think the anti-social aspects have a lot to do with the badboy not even knowing what his strengths can be good for, how to bring them to some use society can appreciate. It doesn’t have to be this way.

  33. “In case of the anti-social “useless badboy” I think the anti-social aspects have a lot to do with the badboy not even knowing what his strengths can be good for”

    @lh

    Hah, never thought of it that way. Brilliant. I think the other side of the coin is that “bad boy” has also come to mean any guy that puts himself first. Unfortunately.

  34. I was late to the game on this new post and it’s importance to my day yesterday, commented on the Vetting thread about a current parenting situation.
    http://therationalmale.com/2015/10/10/the-vetting-process/comment-page-6/#comment-123011

    Rollo is right, you have to start early. Once the kids are older you’re pretty much fucked and it’s a never ending battle. I’m never one to give up, but the situation with my 20-year-old son is almost a no-win scenario. Rather than hear him parrot his mother’s shit I had to lay down the law. It sucks, really hurts but I cannot tolerate any further shit from him complaining about his poor mother (my ex) and what an asshole I was to divorce her.

    In a moment of self-pity I was about to tears last night reading this latest post and how I wish I could go back in time and fix so much fucked up shit. If you’ve got little ones read this post again and learn from my fuckups that that if you don’t start early, or figure out how to halt a mother’s manipulations you’re in for a awful lot of grief.

    All I have is my own self-respect. This morning my eyes fucking hurt, really bad, but only because I used them.

  35. It is essential that the mother does not undermine the father when raising boys as well. My father, despite his flaws, did well raising me. But as I came into my teens, my mother began the “do not be like your father” thing. And even before then would undermine his authority, in punishment for example.

    He was of course the designated enforcer. And she made sure I knew spankings were his idea, and when I would be grounded she would tell me she’d talk to him and shorten my sentence. And because he hated punishing me, he gave in to this. All the while unaware of her manipulation of both of us.

    I developed a hatred for my father because of this. And of course wanted to be a better man than he was, as I think rollo has discussed in one of his articles.

    Many things contributed to my escaping the hopelessly blue pill mindset I’d picked up from her, but the moment of epiphany for me was shortly after my parents divorce, when I told my father of the things she would say and do behind his back.

    The look of genuine shock on his face confused me. And then he said he didn’t understand, he never said or discussed anything about her or their relationship with me and my brother. And I realized, he was right. He hadn’t. And it was clear then who the manipulator was.

    There are of course many other factors, but that and discovering many other even more deceitful behaviors she engages in is what set me on the right path.

  36. Insofar as fatherhood goes ,I’m thinking it’ll be another dead social tradition. Right up there with cassette mixtapes , public payphones and disco clubs. In openly matriarcial cultures such as the Chinese Mosuo male ancestry is literally irrelevant after conception. Girl likes boy, girl bangs boy, and she only sticks around when the feelings are good. Afterwards the association is dissolved. The women raise the kids communally, and who fathered whom becomes irrelevant. Since the Mosuo women control the tribal resources and internal political power , there’s no reason to interact with men for family purposes beyond sex and pregnancy.

    Anyone noticing a pattern in Western society compared to the Mosuo? I don’t believe we’ll quite go down that far in our lifetimes, but once women have a total economic superiority in Western society it’ll be the death knell for mainstream fatherhood. Where’s the incentive for a woman to even deal with male frame and the compromises involved if she makes more money and gets more benefits then said father can hope to acquire?

    Understand; the biggest motivation women had for keeping a man around was money. Man + Woman > resources for baby then Woman alone. What happens when the 60% + of women emerge from modern university with anti male indoctrination and multiple degrees? What happens when most males get winnowed out of college due to the one-two filter of either getting nailed with FI related harassment charges like YMY, or end up financially drained by a high school /freshman year child support order ?

    Yes there are trades ,but most high paying middle class jobs still require college degrees. With college costing more and males being marginalized out of the university graduation path, companies will be forced to hire women for lack of qualified male alternatives. These women wont indulge dating a man who makes less or equal to what they do, so they’ll get plowed and knocked up by some stud with no intention of permitting male influence in their lives from the jump. Fatherhood will become a strictly upper class phenomenon (man makes enough money to be worth keeping) or a rare case where the woman needs a man for assistance and she’s totally alone (she’s disabled or deprived of a family support network ).For the mainstream, it’ll be women raising kids in groups as the fathers look on from afar. It is already like this in black America, and for the tribal Mosuo. I believe it is also the future for us all.

    It isnt the present, yet, but in 18 years kids with dad’s at all-to say nothing of masculine ones-will be very uncommon. When they have kids it’ll be an extinct practice, barring some major external social upheval.

  37. @SD

    I think you’re wrong man. Deep down women want fathers for their kids. And kids want dads. Fighting human nature is always a losing proposition.

  38. Before you crucify me,I know,I may be off topic.Just came across an article that further cements the series preventative medicine. Neely Steinberg (Last name sounds familiar.) wrote an article in defense of “nice guys” and justifying why she would like to “END UP” with a nice guy.Sure she’s had her fair share of jerks but that was just a twenties fling.

    For those who still have a shred of hope here’s the link. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/neely-steinberg/women-dont-like-nice-guys_b_3267249.html

    Let the bitter taste of the red pill swell in your mouth. Thats it……

  39. @SD

    Maybe not “fathers” but serious masculine influences will always be needed no matter what society looks like. I feel bad for kids of single mothers like this because these days they most likely go through life with very little masculine influence.

    1. I feel bad for kids of single mothers like this because these days they most likely go through life with very little masculine influence.

      They’re raised by the Village, and the Village can only tolerate so many Alphas.

  40. @roused
    Don’t give up, what I suspect you need to do is the hard thing and that is to let your son fail big time.
    Perhaps you have noticed that 9/10 men find the manosphere, RP etc after a massive relationship failure. Until there is a serious disruption in the Matrix for your son, e.g. he does everything the matrix told him he should to succeed with a girl, and then he still gets his heart ripped out. Until that happens he will be drip fed enough “success” to not be inclined to change his view of the world, his paradigm if you will.
    Only after men “do all the right things” then get fucked anyhow, sometimes in a serial fashion, only then when the cognitive dissonance is too much to bear, might they be ready to open their eyes. It takes a lot to break the ego investment in what someone believes they are to their core.
    Tough love but it works.

    @Jeremy.
    For the sake of clarity, I have two lovely kids already. They are well adjusted so far and a pleasure to have around most of the time. I do take great pleasure in “programming” them even when it’s a lot of work. My question was really to provoke debate. The root code is to propagate the genes. The next level above that, is to propagate your genes but then to program the offspring to succeed to the next step of propagation. Subsequent layers of program sophistication would be what everyone has spoken to such as legacy, ensuring genetic success down many layers of the system, even going so far as to have historic and cultural influence. All those things can flow from being Alpha etc and demonstrating a lot of agency and forethought. What @Rollo said, begin with the end in mind. How far off is your “end”?

    @scribbleberg,
    As I don’t have a 10″ cock, I don’t do Jesus, and I do actually enjoy external validation from time to time, I hear ya. Personally I do find fatherhood to be, for the most part, intrinsically rewarding. I feel plenty of emotion around parenting, both good and bad. Hurt is hurt, I am not totally stoic.If I had to sum it up, as I do some times when I am with my wife and we are watching our kids from a distance as they enjoy life and perhaps accomplish something great, I am proud to say “We made that”. I am proud of my role in it, despite my own failures and shortcomings and I am proud of my wife’s role in it despite her short comings. We can both do better, but we also know we’ve done pretty well so far and it does indeed warm the heart.

    As a designer I make stuff all the time, it’s my job. But I can say that my proudest production so far is my kids. Being able to shape them as they grow is an interesting task and set of problems, always a challenge but a happy challenge so far.

    As for appreciation and respect. I totally believe respect must be taught to children constantly. Fundamental respect is primal, e.g. “That guy is huge, he can kill me if he wants, I respect that”. Further levels of respect are built upon understanding perhaps how much someone has done to get to a certain position. Back when I was full BP, I frankly resented a lot of people, particularly good looking fit people who worked out and shit like that. I had outright contempt for them. I was wrong. I made a decision to turn my life around and all of a sudden I had much more respect for them. Mostly because I came to understand how hard they worked to get to where they were. It frankly shone a light on my own self loathing up to that point. It made me humble, which was important in some ways.

    As for respect for parents I think it is tied to appreciation. I think kids learn it, there are many teachable moments for that. I find lots of times we as a family find ourselves in situations where social standing differences really come out. We have some friends who are absolutely in the 0.01% in our country, they are fabulously wealthy. We have other friends who are really stretched all the time. Sometimes we have to counsel our daughter in particular about the differences that those people face in their lives. It would be easy to show contempt for either situation but its a chance to teach them to respect different peoples circumstances. It’s a chance to show them that what is important is often how much someone works rather than what they have in the moment. From that they carry it away and bring it back to their own environment. They begin to understand the “value” of hard work for example. Then unprompted they observe, “Shit, dad works really hard doesn’t he”. They express it themselves, I don’t need to tell them to express it. OK, I still have to remind them of pleases and thank yous, but generally they are thankful kids, and wife.

    I feel bad for the young guys here, the guys trying to understand marriage etc, this comes off as a dark place in that regard. For my part I don’t find it quite so daunting. Perhaps I am lucky and managed to pick a wife who is not subject to so much FI programming. Perhaps I am in just enough debt she see’s no upside to jumping from my program. Perhaps I am lucky because I vetted well. Perhaps I did all those things and also managed to negotiate some kind of balance to the whole show that allows me to stumble with my team towards some ephemeral goal of what family can be. Regardless as a study N=1, I feel like its working, it’s not all doom and gloom. Sure I came to the RP because of a relationship crisis but I managed to work it out so far and its rewarding to have a family that I can call my own.

    With all this talk of respect it also reminds me that I do try to respect other men’s marriages more and I try to express that. Sometimes its just that knowing glance at a guy as he is acting as the family mule, a nod and a smile. Other times it’s reaching down and giving a younger guy a pep talk, not full RP, just “They are young, don’t worry, it’s going to get easier” kind of thing. A little encouragement from another guy can go a long way towards building a man’s confidence. We owe it to each other to be team players and back each other up. You don’t win the war by being negative all the time. Positive masculinity must mean the ability to at least see some kind of potential positive outcome as well otherwise fuck it, go sit pool side right?

    1. Unplugging guys from the Matrix is like triage; save the ones you can, read last rites to the dying. But it’s a hard lesson for both father and son when that son is the one in triage.

  41. @SD
    I see where you are coming from but respectfully disagree. Sure 90% of marriages or child bearing relationships may end up that way. But we all know here, are quite certain, that a “traditional” patriarchal relationship / family model works. It may end up being counter cultural, it may end up being rare but it works for everyone involved in it. That alone signals a competitive advantage for that family, for that son, for that daughter.

    I know @Rollo always kicks me and says, demonstrate, don’t explicate but I have to disagree with him in one regard. I did at one point spell out the RP to my wife, I have all but spelled out to my kids. It made a huge difference. Before I spelled it out for my wife I did the 18 months of work to clean up my shit and make it better, but only after I actually spelled it out to her did she finally say, “OK, I see how that works, I see the intrinsic benefits and so on”. To be sure it was a big risk me explaining it to her, but I was also kind of at a nothing left to lose point in my life.

    So why do I think it’s important to have spelled it out to both her and the kids? Because it makes us different, vastly different than a lot of families and relationships around us. I needed my wife to buy into that difference and not to fight it on any level. It has to stand on its own merits but it also has to stand up to the Matrix itself, every single day. Once she understood it, once she understood explicitly why things had been getting better in our relationship, holy fuck did things ever improve, mostly for her. Depression, gone in the 4 months thereafter. Sexual uptightness, gone in the next 6 months, Antipathy towards the world, gone. Ambiguity about what it means to be a feminine woman, gone. Fuck she totally embraced her femininity after that in a way I had never seen before, it was awesome.

    Was she doing it for show? Maybe, perhaps fake it till ya make it, but who cares, the outcome is what I like.

    Either way, my point is that she has bought into the “difference” between us and the Matrix and she likes it, it works well for her, demonstrably well. I explicated once, after that its all demonstration. Her buying into that difference is important because she is now fully invested in it. That investment builds the momentum in our relationship. That momentum is a bulwark against the influence of the matrix. I believe that as long as some people can make traditional family building work and work well, that it will always flourish, even if it is not the predominant cultural model of family building. You have to invest it and manage it but it can work. If it’s working it’ll work for your sons and daughters. If we believe all this RP stuff then we should believe that the advantages conferred on them by an RP upbringing will indeed pass on down the line to gift them with competitive advantages in the future that allow them to build proper families.

    All is not lost, it’s just fucking harder than it was.

    PS, I have one friend in Chicago who is a single dad. Mom was some kind of basket case and he convinced her to check out of the relationship and just walk away (I know the unicorn of divorcees) but he ended up with sole custody etc. He really makes it work. He does well financially so he has resources but he totally makes his relationship with his son work well. He bangs lots of chicks but has no plans to keep any of them around for long. to me its a perfectly good model of what single parenthood can be by a man. It exists, its out there, its not impossible.

  42. @Andy

    Remove the financial incentives, and most women would happily eject fathers from the household. In minority America women are economically incentivized to be single parents, and that’s exactly what we see in reality.

    Fatherhood is a construct built on a basic economic transaction . If a woman wants money/resources to raise her kids, she needs a father who will write the checks for the next 18 years because he is the exclusive resource available . He won’t sign for someone else’s kids, nor will he open his checkbook without a say in how the kids are raised. Some women didn’t like these “Patriarchal” terms-ugh, she has to have some 5’6″ dudes kids instead of the biker stud around the corner- but that’s what the deal was. No loyalty, no exclusivity, no money.Women tolerated this dynamic and thus the masculine household the same folks tolerate road tolls ; a necessary contract to get a needed resource.

    Now, she can get the paper without a man. Just like some men reject living with women because of their annoyances (OMG you apartment needs some beige accessories and throw pillows !) so it goes for women . They don’t want to live with us either ; why bother dealing with a male when they can get the same money or more then he can give them without needing to accomodate one full time?

    A mirror image of this would be a society where high end prostitution is not only legal, but you as a man could fire up an Amazon app and order a guranteed sexual experience to your doorstep for $120 without social shaming or legal problems. In that alternate reality cohabitation would be VERY uncommon.

    This also explains to a degree why women can be antisocial. Why would a woman need to treat men kindly if she can gestate and raise a high genetic quality child whilst earning more money then they can? In returning to the Inverse Reality above, how many men in that society would bother being Beta orbiters to average women?

    Incentives. It’s what makes the world go ’round.

  43. “@CaveClown – Horseshit. All social relationships have a give and take to them – this is the nature of any relationship. You will and do expect respect from your children and don’t kid yourself or me about it.”

    I had “overt” appreciation in mind with my comments. Of course I expect respect. I’m divorcing my wife because of lack of respect.

    “What the fuck is wrong with you people?Is this a LARPING festival where you all think you are ubermen in some fantasy game where you pretend you are above normal human emotions and need? Of course you want to at a minimum be treated with respect and some level of appreciation for being a good father. Why is this even arguable?”

    Had to google LARPING. Funny analogy. There is actually quite a bit of “fake it till you make it” for me. Of course there is, why the fuck would there not be? Why the fuck do you think men like myself are here? Not everyone is as far along in all of this as you. Remember that.

    “I’m out, this is getting stupid.”

    When you write here, I read it. I respect your opinions. I learn from your opinions.

    But fuck you if you think I’m stupid.

  44. @lh
    “So everyone here should identify his “natural alphaness” and I think almost every man will have such aspects. What needs fixing and that’s why we are here is why these things didn’t prevail so far or to bring them to good use out of understanding them and their value.

    In when it comes to alpha masculinity we all know how this get’s shamed in society and many fall for perceiving these traits as weaknesses and not strengths.

    In case of the anti-social “useless badboy” I think the anti-social aspects have a lot to do with the badboy not even knowing what his strengths can be good for, how to bring them to some use society can appreciate. It doesn’t have to be this way.”

    We spend way too much time here discussing what’s ‘alpha’ and what’s not.

    I subscribe to the KISS method, so boil it down to the base component, go with that and move on.

    Being in your frame is alpha… period.

    This is why Rollo says alpha is a mindset. From solidly being in your frame and your MPO, all ‘alpha behaviors’ flow.

    We’re all born as natural alphas, it’s in our DNA. Then we get labelled as broken (by a fem-centered school system), drugged (for ADHD, wtf?!?), beat down, brainwashed, plugged in, and thrown on the treadmill. Very few of us are ‘Zion born’ and escape this fate. It often takes a traumatic event (infidelity, divorce rape, parental alienation, etc) to lodge the splinter in our mind’s eye. We search and eventually unplug, only to ‘wake up’ and find our frame atrophied from non-use. It was always there, we just never used it.

    Instead of obsessing on what is or is-not alpha, put your effort into exercising your frame and MPO… the rest will come naturally.

  45. @ Roused

    Hang in there man. Some things you cannot change. But have the courage to change the things you can.

    Most boys go through the phase your son is going through. He’s frustrated and lashing out.

    The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is now.

    Stick to your principles and your mission. But don’t resent your son for his current actions. He just doesn’t have the resources to break out of his rut. He will respect you in the future to not compromising your principles for excellence. Be as excellent as you can be.

    Don’t give up in investing in your son or everyone including you will suffer. Don’t resign.

    Paraphrasing (sorry I’m on a kick):

    “This self-resignation will communicate itself to your son. He will feel your weakness. Your son will begin to take charge more than he really wants, since he will sense you are clearly not capable of taking charge yourself, and someone has to do it. Your children will challenge your capacity to discipline them, since they can feel your own lack of authentic self-discipline. Try as you might, once you have negated your own deep purpose, your family will become a place where everybody tests your capacity to stand your ground, and you will lose.

    Obviously, as a father, you will want to give your love, skill, energy, and time to your son. It will be your joy, and it will also be a necessity. However, the motive to dedicate time to your children may or may not be symmetrical between members, and this should be an ongoing discovery for each person. This motive may change over time for him and you as their lives grow through different stages. ”

    I feel your sorrow. It’s hard. Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better. Keep the faith and stick to the script.

  46. @Rollo: “I got into this in the Male Space essay, but one reason there is such a determined push to get women into those male spaces is because the FI can’t afford to have men talk amongst themselves uninfluenced by the feminine. That influence pits men against each other and limits a solidarity that would threaten the control of feminine primacy.”

    Apart from the hegemonic, war-profiteering, megalomaniac aspects, I can see why secret societies are necessary, for men! At whatever level….

  47. “We’re all born as natural alphas, it’s in our DNA. Then we get labelled as broken (by a fem-centered school system), drugged (for ADHD, wtf?!?), beat down, brainwashed, plugged in, and thrown on the treadmill. Very few of us are ‘Zion born’ and escape this fate. It often takes a traumatic event (infidelity, divorce rape, parental alienation, etc) to lodge the splinter in our mind’s eye. We search and eventually unplug, only to ‘wake up’ and find our frame atrophied from non-use. It was always there, we just never used it.”

    Hah, naturals are ‘Zion-born.’ Love it. It’s crazy how far we can take the Matrix metaphors.

    “In case of the anti-social “useless badboy” I think the anti-social aspects have a lot to do with the badboy not even knowing what his strengths can be good for, how to bring them to some use society can appreciate. It doesn’t have to be this way.”

    No, it doesn’t. We likely couldn’t be quite so efficient a society if we were more free, but I’ll not take chains for gold. Men are alpha in different ways. Some of them brutal. Me? I’m more bard than guard, so I can do fine nowadays. It’s the men whose gift is violence that are left lost. Even our military is trammeled by bureaucratic paper trails. What do you do with so many bored heroes? Jail ’em.

  48. @Striver

    “Got my first post-divorce lay last weekend. It was time. Less than two months since the divorce. Turned down some other opportunities. This one was good enough.

    [….]

    “My statement and question would be that this is where a lot of guys like me get tripped up. Finally get the game to get some, then we stop or get overwhelmed, don’t have a good frame, and get the same crappy outcome. Because we start getting laid and then we quit working or don’t have game to go further.

    “So I’ve started doing better, but I’m starting to get into faster water here and I need better game, start stepping it up. Where to go?”

    Good going, man.

    There’s a lot of resources out there, of course. But fundamentally what you need to do is spin plates. You need to build experience with game without risking one-itis, and that’s the only way.

    You can get theory down, and that’s important, but practice is the only way to make it really work.

    Go out tonight and try to get a few approaches under your belt. Just to keep up the mindset that you’re not buckling down on one person. The danger at this stage is that sure thing sex will seem like less of a hassle than hitting the hunting grounds.

    And

    That’s how the beta begins to wake.

    So far as material goes, I like watching Owen Cook these days. His videos do a good job of pumping my state/mindset and showing me how PUA is possible. This one’s pretty great if you’ve got an hour or two to kill:

    https://youtu.be/XpC-X5sMMCM

  49. Field Report if anyone wants to chime in.

    In line at a fast food restaurant in a town I’m only somewhat familiar with. HB6, 22yr old gets in line behind me. I make eye contact and smile at her, she returns the smile, says “hi” and then breaks eye contact and blushes.

    Timing was such that I had to order my food, and let her order, before I could say anything.

    Then I stood off to the side and waited for my order. She ordered, and I immediately waved her over to me. She stood to my side, not quite facing me, and had pretty open body language. She stood very close to me. She was smiling, but seemed very nervous/shy.

    My AA was virtually zero.

    As she was walking up to me I said, “Are you local or passing through?”

    Her, “Umm…uhh…local”

    I think she was nervous or shy. Her body language was open, but she would not look me in the eye, however, everything I said to her was hilarious as she laughed a lot. So interested, but weird and shy.

    Me (motioning at the entire restaurant) “this is the extent of what I’ve seen in your town”

    Her, “It gets a bit more exciting than this”

    Me, “a girl that knows where the fun is….cool. So what is there to do around here?” (rubbing my hands together like a mad man with a plan)

    All giggles.

    Her, “Uhh…um…I mostly stay home…I guess”

    Before I could say anything else she tells me a story about almost getting into a car wreck last week, and how that was exciting but not the right kind of excitement. I felt like this was her trying to come up with a story to prove she is exciting? But maybe she was just weird?

    She then told me that she grew up in this town.

    She used as few words as possible.

    And that’s where I choked. I was worried about getting into “interview mode” like I have done in the past with girls that clam up but are interested.

    I talked a bit about traveling, and then told her it was a pleasure talking to her and ended the conversation.

    My thoughts:

    I probably seemed very high energy to her. I am very animated.

    I should of insta-dated her at the restaurant as she was alone, but I let the awkwardness of her clamming up dictate my actions.

    How could I have pushed it forward?

  50. ‘The Village’… now there’s a movie metaphor! The town elders (the FI) brainwash & scare the bejeezus out of the young (boys) with the boogie-men (alpha / masculinity) to prevent them from finding the truth (the RP).

    It’s everywhere, but only if open your eyes… “Can you see?!?”

  51. “Hah, naturals are ‘Zion-born.’ Love it. It’s crazy how far we can take the Matrix metaphors. ”

    A lot of things have been attributed to me lately that I’m not at all sure I deserve credit for, but I believe that one might actually be mine, although I was talking about the difference between the naturally born MGHOW vs. MGTOW.

    “We’re all born as natural alphas, it’s in our DNA.”

    I’m not sure this is true at all. See the dweebs with “just punch me” face; they’re born that way. I think there’s a lot of epigenetic control over that, so the alpha DNA might well be there as well, but it isn’t expressed, the environment leaning toward giving deltas, and even gammas, more of an edge than in other times.

  52. ‘The Village’… now there’s a movie metaphor! . . . It’s everywhere, but only if open your eyes… “Can you see?!?””

    I saw the “surprise” ending from the trailer. I was hoping he’d end up surprising me by not doing the obvious, but nope.

  53. @Cave

    “She used as few words as possible.

    And that’s where I choked. I was worried about getting into “interview mode” like I have done in the past with girls that clam up but are interested.
    I talked a bit about traveling, and then told her it was a pleasure talking to her and ended the conversation.”

    You use as few words as possible unless you have some really good material and get her to open up with open ended questions. Or a few questions to ask her about what she thinks about something. An example not at all fitting in your context when I proposed the question to a what I knew was a Caltholic girl. Totally random: “don’t you think that the White House staff should have had the short Pope on a riser when he was standing next to the 6’2” President Obama. Obama just looked too imperial and the Pope just looked to short and non-imperial”. Once again totally out of context and random, but designed to open up the girl I was talking to. No woman would refuse to give her decided opinion.

    It is one thing to fight the urge to “interview” but you have to fight the urge to talk about yourself or your travel as a DHV. Let her decide you are DHV instead of explain it to her.

    Continue to get her to qualify herself to you. Don’t qualify yourself to her.

    Good thing is, without approach anxiety you are free to enlist her anxiety and feelings about herself and her town. She brought up the car accident and there could be a lot of avenues to pursue there and then switch to other lines of thought about safety, what did your boyfriend think about that?, what would she do without a car?, what would her parents think, did she get to work on time, etc.

    Keep in mind that “it is about her”. Not about you.

  54. @kfg… “I’m not sure this is true at all. See the dweebs with “just punch me” face; they’re born that way. I think there’s a lot of epigenetic control over that, so the alpha DNA might well be there as well, but it isn’t expressed, the environment leaning toward giving deltas, and even gammas, more of an edge than in other times.”

    I hear ya, but it’s there. All boys are born to be their MPO as much as girls are born to be solipsistic… it’s in our DNA. What varies is its strength, resistance and resilience. My guess it’s a ‘high-Q’ bell curve.

  55. Sjf,

    I do tend to talk about myself a bit, being a narcissist, it’s my favorite topic. (Only partially joking)

    I asked a few questions about the almost car wreck. So I was on the right track, just got myself worked up over nothing. I fall into interview mode easily…boring.

    Based off what she said and your advice I can now see about a million different ways I could of took that conversation.

    Thanks man.

  56. Thanks Rollo for this.

    Just an additional word of encouragement for boy fathers:

    We already have the boys on our team. They are not blank. The boys have it in them too. The way the girl knows who to kiss and who to marry when she is 7, so does the boy know when he is being handed the short end.

    Let us not forget the kids have something in them too. They have an inbuilt schema too. They have a responsibility, and God (or whatever) has equipped them with counter measures.

    The other day, my daughter was watching a cartoon and my son seemed less interested and busy playing video games. So I asked him why he does not want to watch TV. Know what he said? He said TV is for girls. I asked him why is that? He said something to the effect that “on TV, only girls and women win. The men and boys on TV are losers, somehow.”

    And sure enough just that moment, some man character in the cartoon goofed and so a granny character took over the show. So I asked my son if he had figured this all on his own. He did not answer directly but he insisted that what he had said it was true. I had to agree with him. He is 9.

    I am so proud of that little fucker heheheeee…

  57. @ Cave

    Before I could say anything else she tells me a story about almost getting into a car wreck last week, and how that was exciting but not the right kind of excitement. I felt like this was her trying to come up with a story to prove she is exciting? But maybe she was just weird?

    She’s just another girl. Wants emotional thrills. Reliving that was an emotional thrill for her. Just amp up her thrills.

  58. Asd,

    I choked when I decided to turn down the energy and avoid interview mode…

    I felt like I was overwhelming her. She was really really shy. So she didn’t say much, even her car story was only a few words and I thought she was going to have a panic attack.

    I’ve had plenty of chicks that didn’t say much because they didn’t like me, this was not that. No fidgety moves to get away or acting distracted.

    I’ve never had a girl that into me right off the bat. So her lack of talking but her high body language interest confused me.

    My high energy made me feel thirsty too.

  59. “Keep in mind that “it is about her”. Not about you.”

    Yep – agreed. I’ll throw a Field Report out here.

    Call it DMV Day Game.

    The CA Department of Motor Vehicles… every year: fees and registration, tests, fines, tickets, photos, ownership transfers, license renewals, fluorescent lights, stuffy air, long lines, slow process, boredom, nervousness, irritation…

    I drive into the parking lot of the local DMV and take a spot right next to another driver who’d pulled in at the same time. A cute blonde gets out, [I like blondes – heck I am one – if I still had hair] – adjusts herself, pulls her panties out of her ass and gets her things. I check her out, like I always do… She’s curvy; 5’6”, big tits, round ass, skinny waist, [I like big butts and I cannot lie] in her late twenties… oh ya – inspiration.

    [BTW I don’t care about age – under 55 and over 18 – I’m 53 – yes I’d fuck a twenty-something in a heart beat. Vasectomy completed a decade ago. No pregnancies. No DUI, No STDs, felonies, wife, debt or drama. I don’t care about the number of her previous partners. So long as her and I are a good fit physically, isn’t crazy, did I mention no STDs? – then I’m good to go. I’ll find out about her intellectual and emotional IQ later. Can’t be any worse than what I’ve already been through – unless I have to dodge bullets or endure another suicide].

    All this criteria just to talk to a girl in the DMV…?!
    Ya – this could be an opportunity to close on a phone number, then more conversation later on and then going to her place or her to mine, with wine and weed, incense and oil, leading to a shoulders and neck massage, kissing her neck and nibbling her ears and giving her boobs a couple of firm squeezes before laying her down for a full, hot oil body massage – candles – hypnotic chill-out yoga dub – All That.

    Yes ~ typical Northern CA native.

    So anyway – I’m checking out the curvy blonde in the parking lot, walking fast to get in ahead of her at the DMV. One less person in front of me. Well, I zigged and she zagged and she got through the door first. She took her number and sat down – took a seat right next to the door where I was standing. I’m looking down at her thick, blonde hair, then tits and cleavage and I’m thinking… how to approach… how to approach. I want to get my hands on her.

    I took my number which was the one after hers and looked for a vacant seat. My choices were 1. right next to the curvy cute blonde, or 2. next to a painting contractor, about my age and wearing paint stained clothes, or 3. two crazy, meth addled old hippy-women who looked like lost scarecrows with frizzy, grey hair, or 4. a row of seats completely vacant on the adjacent wall… What to do… what to do.

    I sit down next to the cute curvy blonde and in that moment I know my approach; when a chance for playful conversation comes up I’ll make it all about her – appeal to her self interest and simply talk to her about her… there – simple.

    I sit. No words. No acknowledgement. No fidgeting. No nervousness or anxiety – this is going to be fun. Not going to make a move immediately and seem thirsty. Just sitting next to her feelin’ her ‘feel’ me while I’m feelin’ her… feel me. Her personal space has just been shared and she’s deciding if she likes that or not… [we might even be exchanging pheromones?]

    Looking around me and… we are waiting for an old guy in his 70s processing a prolonged license renewal… it was a slow day in small town DMV.

    Then the old guy is up and positioning himself, toes on the line, getting his picture taken for his license renewal. Surprise – he passed! and there’s my approach.

    I lean over to her and say ~ “aren’t you glad you don’t have to do THAT today…”!? implying that she could have improved her looks anticipating a picture for her license. Or – what a long process/hassle it is just getting a license renewal to drive these days…

    She responds with:

    “Well – I just might have to do that if this paperwork isn’t completed” – !

    “Oh really ? – and what did you do to require a license renewal? “ I ask, implying she might be a ‘bad girl’ in need of renewal for a suspended license.

    “ha ha nothing like that…” giggling and qualifying herself. Giggles are good.

    She tells me about the ‘online’ forms she’d filled out but had not received renewal email or mail confirmation or anything. Then – She goes on and tells me she has a long drive from the Sierras down to Sacramento that afternoon and needs to know her license is renewed – just in case – and what ever…. she’s interested in conversation.

    To reply and simplify these details staying focused on her and not caught up in the technicalities – or as Cave puts it – “Interview mode” – I ask:

    “Are your stickers the right color” ?

    “yes they are” –

    “well then – unless you are driving 95 on I-80 mid afternoon past a CHP then I doubt you’ll have any problem”… back to the bad girl thing.

    oh, no of course she won’t be driving 95… again qualifying herself and enjoying the attention.

    It’s all about her. And each time she replies with more conversation she gets more attention. I know it’s not necessarily MY attention she’s into – but I’m doing it for her so she’s liking me.

    Considering the Indications Of Interest [IOI] she was giving I’d usually propose ‘give me your number – let’s talk some more later’. Then, later, as we talk on the phone and she continues to be the center of attention, we’ll be meeting at her place or mine for wine, weed and song…

    Didn’t happen that way this time. The timing didn’t work. Maybe next time. Besides closing on a phone number at the sterile offices of the DMV was too ‘weird’ for me. Too many bored, impatient people gawking and listening in. Like the Painting Contractor sitting next to me, who I’ll get to in a moment.

    But at the same time – the DMV turned out to be a good approach location because it’s boring, tedious and ripe for any sort of distraction and attention to divert from the drudgery of registration, renewal, fees, tests…

    Anyway – One thing to avoid – while pandering to the girl’s self interests, be mindful when considering talking about yourself. Wait until your asked. And then keep it brief and get back to her. She’ll appreciate that.

    At one point in her story, I thought about relating a similar story about myself, but my second mind told me to hesitate – in that moment of hesitation the guy in the paint stained clothes proclaims: “I’m a painting contractor”… with no tie in to what had just been said – awkward right from the start.

    But he’s using his professional status as Painting Contractor as reason to talk about himself and his reasons for being at the DMV – none of it fun or interesting. Compounding his self important awkwardness, he’s boring and he’s taking the attention away from the special snowflake – and apparently expecting THAT to be impressive. Felt like an “O’ Brother Where Art Thou” moment.

    The cute blonde did not respond nor even look his way… crickets… Pregnant pause. I would have bailed him out with some lame question or comment about painting, but before I could think of something, he doubled down by attempting humor and then – the final nail in the coffin – he laughed at his own joke!

    Beta male disqualification 101A: talk about yourself, be boring and laugh at your own jokes.

    I commented on something he’d said [yellow tape is better than blue] and then I turned to the blonde and said:

    “the things you learn at the DMV” – ! Beta’s are lame.

    “ya – right” – now she’s looking right at me – Beta Boy made me look much better by comparison.

    At this time – the door opens and a tall 5’10” beauty, fit, tight, tan 20 something, long legs, with red/brown hair straight down to her ass. Round ass tightly hugged in short / shorts – ! She walked in and sat in one of the chairs along the adjacent wall. She’s the only person sitting there and wow! Crossed her long legs, sat back, flung her hair across her shoulder and posed.

    If I weren’t already in the middle of something I might have thrown a piece of wadded up paper at her and asked “why are you way over there when you could be sitting next to me and this painting contractor…”? ha! As if the answer weren’t obvious, it would be funny to see her reaction… and his – ! But no – I’m focusing on one babe at a time here under the glaring fluorescent lights of the DMV were it’s always 78º, tense but boring, ripe with pick up opportunity.

    The contractor was called to the desk and his body language was heavy, self conscious, overly concerned and basically tortured. ‘No fun for little Harpo’. When he finished he got up to leave and he shot the blonde a look that was chronic Oneitis – or Stink Eye – it was hard to tell. He looked at her like she was the only woman on the planet who he might ever have a chance with [considering she’s flirting with me maybe she’d like him too] and now that he was finished at the DMV and walking out the door, he was losing that one and only chance forever… painful.

    After painter-dood leaves the blonde babe is called… she gets up and walks over to the desk and check out her ass, like I always do. She has on those jeans with the sparkly patterns on her ass… country girl: Ropes, horses, barns, hay ~ She sits, pleads her case, gets her information, stamped and approved and is up and on her way out the door.

    “Drive well” I say.

    “I will” – “nice to meet you”, she smiled and that was that.

    I might see her again sometime as it’s a small town. Or not. It was all good. I’ll quit while I’m ahead not risking anything to make the situation awkward. And besides, playing the game was fun, exciting and informative.

    What? you were expecting a quick ‘get-me-hard blow-job and a hot bend-over’ in the bathroom? a phone number at least – right? not in this case. Once a person is done in the DMV they just want to get the hell out. Holding the girl up for her number while she’s bolting for the door would have been awkward and needy. And considering I was next in line, I’d be rudely holding up the process for a phone number! That would be desperate and awkward – chicks hate desperate and awkward – So maybe next time.

    Anyway – I got my pink slip transfer situation squared away, stood up and turned to exit when the next person in line, long-legs-red-head appeared right in front of me in my exit path – wow – what a beauty – she locked eyes with me – I know she’s 5’10” as she looked me right in the eye – sizing me up – and then in a moment stepped out of my way and I exited. I got the feeling she wanted to get a look at the guy who was ‘making time’ in the DMV… makes me sort of want to go back to the DMV ~ “So many women – so little time”.

  60. and how that was exciting but not the right kind of excitement.

    She invited you to excite her basically. And it should you give food for though she did this while you feel you aren’t exciting enough. They say building on your strengths is better than to eliminate your weaknesses. It may all be easier than you think.

  61. “I felt like I was overwhelming her. She was really really shy.”

    “For such a cute girl in/on your own home turf, you really are delightfully shy. I’m the one that should be nervous. But I’m not”

  62. How to triage someone into RP thinking? Dr. Fred’s Prescription: use . Don’t say Game, don’t say PUA. It’s evolutionary psychology. It’s evolutionary biology. There are biologically-driven and innate qualities that ALL men have and different ones ALL women have. They are hird-wired default natural traits which transcend cultures, continents, nations, religions. And oh yeah it transcends politics. Culture can influence those base default impulses, try to channel them, and can succeed somewhat. (It’s symbiotic). But it’s like trying to dam or redirect a stream: it will flow around, work around, go under, go over. Takes way way lots of work to dam them up, many societies have tried and still try, and then even the best-built dams eventually give way.

    It’s not a matter of man good, women better, vice versa or bad. It’s what the entire species does, and the basic instincts are NO ONE’S FAULT.
    Hypergamy is natural; alpha peacocking is natural; beta provisioning is natural; AF/BB is just the modern manifestation.

    And the hardwiring transcends gay/straight. Hypergamy or if you like Hypergyny will be found in the LGBT sectors as well, it cannot be avoided.

    Yes what a particular woman or man may do is an individual decision, and their responsibility, but they may well do and not know WHY they do. Or hamsterlate WHY they do: the girl on spring break who fucks the DJ but won’t put out for you until you marry her. The King Alpha Tech pioneer who can’t get laid and has to hire a dating service. Or the King Alpha cop or soldier who, once out of the field, becomes pitiably Blue Pill Nice Guy.

    Your son/friend will be resistant. Say, OK, but “Hear me now, believe me later.” They will have to learn for themselves that all “relationship” counseling they were given is bullshit. Don’t listen to what men or women say to do; look at what they actually do. See who marries, who divorces, who breeds, who fucks, who doesn’t. That will be your proof.

    TRIGGER WARNING FOR THE SUPER-RELIGIOUS OR POLITICALLY STRIDENT: while I am being neutral here and not derailing, this next tactic is best suited for those who are neither. It neutralizes political criticism from the Left and Right. If the following hits too close to you, don’t use it. The point is to neutralize any nonsense “it’s right wing thinking by the patriamalarkey”.

    Feminists like to say “sex and gender are all a social construct and different gender paradigms can be built with DoublePlusGoodThink, political revolution and re-education.” And by rewriting school textbooks to say so. That’s like the Stalinists who thought they could breed better workers for the State by treating them like dirt to make them stronger, like they were breeding for pest-resistant corn. And who thought they could change biology by imposing untested crackpot political concepts and calling them science. Or the Maoists and Khmer Rouge who thought they could reorder people’s brains by forcing them to Return to the Soil and be part of happy collectives. Or ISIS preachers being so sex-obsessed by their forced sublimations that they’ve outlawed pigeon breeding because when they fly away you might see the birds’ private parts and get aroused. (That story is absolutely true). How’s all that working out?

    Or the creationists who like to say the world is only 6000 years old because Jesus, and try to deny all of geology, anthropology, biology, and astronomy by doing different rewriting of school textbooks and curricula, legislative proclamations, and building a theme park.

    Or the Churchians who tell you to be Obedient Nice Guys, marry single moms because it’s man’s Dooty, and disgust women by putting them on pedestals, because, uh, something something bible.

    Both the Left and the Right have political reasons to paper over inconvenient science. But the science will out anyway, fuck politics. and Life Will Find a Way.

    No one will let you say all this at one go of course. Nor would you want to I’d expect. But it’s an outline. I’ve had some success with it, feeding it in drips and drabs.

  63. “She invited you to excite her basically. And it should you give food for though she did this while you feel you aren’t exciting enough. They say building on your strengths is better than to eliminate your weaknesses. It may all be easier than you think.”

    Yeah, I completely missed her invite. Damn. Seems obvious now.

    I bet if i had kept it going by asking open ended questions, stayed a little crazy with my energy level, and not let an awkward lull in the conversation affect me…I could of insta-dated her for lunch and then got her number.

    And that would of been exciting as hell for her, I’m sure. Loads of fun for me too.

    Hmmm…why am I second guessing myself in the moment?

    Thanks LH.

  64. @Fred Flange

    How to triage someone into RP thinking? Dr. Fred’s Prescription: use . Don’t say Game, don’t say PUA. It’s evolutionary psychology. It’s evolutionary biology. There are biologically-driven and innate qualities that ALL men have and different ones ALL women have…

    I find the best is to make other people come up with questions of their own that they haven’t asked before. That’s not easy to do.

    Last weekend I was with two friends of mine since before finding the manosphere. They’re two metal-heads, a man and a woman, both married to different people. The guy comes from a broken family, his father beat his mother and treated him like shit too. Eventually the cops got involved and he was temporarily in state custody. Basically catastrophic as far as family is concerned. The girl was an first child of two engineer alcoholics who managed to sober up about the time she was becoming a teenager. They both have significant unresolved childhood issues. They’re both heavily blue-pill oriented, even though I wouldn’t call the guy a “beta” by default. We were in a car having a discussion. I mentioned a girl the previous weekend who I was flirting with, and I said something like this:

    “Yeah, she was fun to flirt with, but she traveled the world extensively by herself when she was just coming of age, so….”

    The guy comes back with: “Wait… what? you sound whore-a-phobic.”

    I replied with: “I didn’t say I wouldn’t fuck her, I simply implied she’s probably had sex with a lot of guys, and that is a problem for an LTR.”

    He says, “Yep, it sounds like you’re whore-a-phobic.”

    This turned into a discussion about judging women for their number of sex partners. The guy openly tells me that his N count is very high (no number given). I stopped them cold with:

    “Look, it is relatively easy for women to have lots of sex. It is also relatively hard for a guy to have lots of sex. Since the level of difficulties are different, how can I judge the woman the same way for doing something a lot that is easy for her… as I judge a man for doing something a lot that is difficult for him? The difficulty is inherently unequal, so how can I judge them the same way? If I were to judge them the same, that is like being just as impressed that Manute Bol slam-dunked a basketball as a 5’3″ kid, it doesn’t work.”

    Mind you, that wasn’t the same as getting them to ask the question themselves. It was me asking the question. But they still had no answer. The conversation stopped.

  65. “For such a cute girl in/on your own home turf, you really are delightfully shy. I’m the one that should be nervous. But I’m not””

    @sjf,

    I like this! I felt like I stepped into her frame with the shyness thing. I reacted too much to it. She likely would of relaxed a bit with this, and I would still of been in frame.

    Awesome.

    @dwellerman, good stuff man, great mindset.

  66. “I choked when I decided to turn down the energy and avoid interview mode…

    I felt like I was overwhelming her. She was really really shy. So she didn’t say much, even her car story was only a few words and I thought she was going to have a panic attack.

    I’ve had plenty of chicks that didn’t say much because they didn’t like me, this was not that. No fidgety moves to get away or acting distracted.

    I’ve never had a girl that into me right off the bat. So her lack of talking but her high body language interest confused me.

    My high energy made me feel thirsty too.”

    Ok, here’s where we start. You had attraction. You had frame. Where did this fall apart?

    “As she was walking up to me I said, “Are you local or passing through?”

    Her, “Umm…uhh…local”

    I think she was nervous or shy. Her body language was open, but she would not look me in the eye, however, everything I said to her was hilarious as she laughed a lot. So interested, but weird and shy.”

    Good. You DHV’d, got her interest. In MM this is A1.

    “Me (motioning at the entire restaurant) “this is the extent of what I’ve seen in your town”

    Her, “It gets a bit more exciting than this”

    Me, “a girl that knows where the fun is….cool. So what is there to do around here?” (rubbing my hands together like a mad man with a plan)

    All giggles.”

    Doin’ well. You tested her. Let’s see if she tries to pass. That would be A2.

    “Her, “Uhh…um…I mostly stay home…I guess”

    Before I could say anything else she tells me a story about almost getting into a car wreck last week, and how that was exciting but not the right kind of excitement. I felt like this was her trying to come up with a story to prove she is exciting? But maybe she was just weird?”

    You got A2, she’s trying to qualify yourself to you. Then you flubbed the passback; from here you need to reward her attempt to qualify to you. That’s A3.

    She’s not gonna warm up to you if she doesn’t think she’s worthy of you. You’re blowing her out, basically. “Oh, this really cool guy is talking to me, I need to seem cool to him oh no what do I say maybe I’ll tell him something interesting that happened to me….oh no, he thinks I’m boring, I’m ruining this chance….” so she never gets comfortable and keeps being shy and nervous. You even tell us you think she was ‘weird.’

    HB6’s act differently than 9’s in general. You gotta disqualify hot girls hard. Average girls need to know they have a chance.

    One good tactic from Mystery is to, after she qualifies to you, be like “Holy crap you’re into X?! I LOVE X…this is crazy, I can’t even talk to you right now…” then turn your back. She’ll chase you, you let her pull your attention back.

    After that, you start with compliance tests. A good one would be an insta-date. If she doesn’t jump for it, cycle back to A1.

    “She then told me that she grew up in this town.

    She used as few words as possible.

    And that’s where I choked. I was worried about getting into “interview mode” like I have done in the past with girls that clam up but are interested.

    I talked a bit about traveling, and then told her it was a pleasure talking to her and ended the conversation.”

    Would probably have been better to interview than start reciting random facts about yourself. But you seem to have the right concept, you saw that your initial thread had fallen cold so you were trying to DHV again to get a new one going. Better ways to DHV might be to say something funny to someone else around you, or try doing a cold read on her or some other customer.

    Your first mistake was actually not being interested in her story. Your second mistake was not trying to qualify her again and telling your own stories trying to DHV instead of qualifying her again. Hopefully the second try she says something you can be more interested in lol.

    “My thoughts:

    I probably seemed very high energy to her. I am very animated.

    I should of insta-dated her at the restaurant as she was alone, but I let the awkwardness of her clamming up dictate my actions.

    How could I have pushed it forward?”

    toning down the energy at first might help. You need to mirror a bit as you draw someone into your frame, then gradually amp their state to where you’d like it to be. Some people are more skittish than others, so you need to calibrate how quickly you can do this.

    How could you have pushed it forward? A1-A3, then compliance (insta-date), followed by comfort-building. Then having logistics planned for whatever might happen next. Number close? Easy. Get laid? You’re gonna have to have mad logistics planned in this situ. Make-out? You’ll have to at least have isolation or a venue change figured out.

  67. In Cave’s and Dweller’s FR I don’t see a lot of A2, which, by the magic of cut n’ paste, is:

    A2: Female-to-Male Interest

    In A2 phase, you should create attraction. Some pickup routine in this stage like:

    1. DHV (not DMV form filling)

    2. Storytelling (not listing places you’ve traveled)

    3. AMOGing

    4. Cocky & Funny

    5. Push-and-Pull

    On the FRs, while entertaining to describe the complete scene (such as “two crazy, meth addled old hippy-women who looked like lost scarecrows with frizzy, grey hair”) loses focus, but maybe that is part of the problem. The what-could-have-I-done-differently can be added too.

  68. Sorry about the messed-up italics. You’ll be able to figure out what’s me and what’s Caveclown from the quotation marks at least 😛

  69. @Dwellerman

    you got a good frame there. Good field report too. But ya, I don’t see much qualifying going on there. Maybe it was in there, you just didn’t write about it.

    Also, keeping the attention on her isn’t crucial. You CAN do things that way, but you can also focus on yourself or go back and forth. Like redlight notes, telling a story (one that’s interesting and stimulates emotions) can work well.

    The key is to get them feeling. They can feel about their life, your life, or random facts about no-one, but they need to be feeling.

  70. Forge,

    Alright, I see where I went wrong. She qualified herself to me and I failed to reward. Makes sense.

    I’ve yet to study any of this, just shooting from the hip. I’ll have to read up on mystery method. Yareally sent me to rsd todd and owen too.

    I wasn’t interested in her story, you’re right. But I could of been if I slowed down to pay more attention to her. And yes she was weird. But I’m starting to realize that I might just be an actual asshole too. Not good. I really don’t hold any ill will towards women though, just on the defensive I guess. (product of being with a BPD chick so long I think)

    “HB6’s act differently than 9’s in general. You gotta disqualify hot girls hard. Average girls need to know they have a chance.”

    I’ve never approached a 9. Been with one 9 in my life and she approached me. (I knew her from years ago)

    I didn’t recognize that she qualified herself to me.

    Thanks dude! This shit is exciting!

  71. The fun thing about storytelling is it doesn’t have to be real. Cave glances at phone, looks concerned, and says “looks like the FBI is going to surround this place to arrest me, let’s get out of here”.

    “ARREST YOU?”

    “It’s just a clusterfuck of a misunderstanding, my lawyers will sort it all out tomorrow, I just prefer not to spend the night in jail”

    Now you would think that any sensible woman (especially a potential mother to your children) would excuse herself and run away. But her boring pedestrian life has now become exciting. She’s in a movie.

  72. “On the FRs, while entertaining to describe the complete scene (such as “two crazy, meth addled old hippy-women who looked like lost scarecrows with frizzy, grey hair”) loses focus, but maybe that is part of the problem.”

    I attempted to keep my details low. I gave details that explained the flow of the interaction and the reason for my opener.

    And yeah, I gotta work on the steps. I’ve never heard of A1-A3 until just now, lol

  73. You know, maybe it’s a product of my horrendously abusive upbringing, but I’ve never been of the illusion that parents (either one) automatically deserve or should receive appreciation or even respect. From my perspective, that kid is stuck with you by no choice of their own. Their existence, never mind who they start it with or the station in life that entails, the experiences they will have that shape the person they become, all of these things are completely out of their control.

    Does a child automatically owe a “thank you” to a parent that births them in to poverty? Does a child owe them appreciation for keeping them alive to adulthood but abusing them all the way? Should a kid thank a parent for being born in to an existence with genetics and family conditioning that doom them to a life of facing constant crushing depression that makes merely existing painful?

    Having the kid was YOUR choice, not the kid’s. You knew and accepted the responsibilities and they had no choice in the matter. Period. End of story. The law and society make it clear that you owe them the money and effort to attempt to bring them up as a good citizen regardless of if they ever thank you. There’s no “Well it’s cool to abuse the shit out of your kids if they don’t appreciate you,” and there shouldn’t be, because you had a choice in the matter. The kid didn’t. A kid that didn’t appreciate you was always a possibility and somewhere in there you knew it. You still chose to have a kid.

    My father and mother, for all their abuse, always used berate me for not thanking them for the 18 year abusive trainwreck they referred to as “good parenting”. Thank them? Fuck them.

    The fact is the vast majority of parents just kind of muddle through the job and do a mediocre job of it. A few do a tremendously horrible job. And a few do a job worthy of appreciation, and in my experience the kids of those parents recognize it. If kids don’t recognize your good parenting due to a shitty woman, who failed to vet her well? You didn’t fail the kid directly, but indirectly you did by providing them with a shitty mom that made dad out to be something awful when he wasn’t.

    I suppose then I’ve always been cognizant of the idea that if I ever decided to have kids, it would have to be because I wanted to have them, not because I wanted them to appreciate what I’d done. I’m the only one that I could expect to appreciate the work I’d done in having and raising them. Any other appreciation after the fact is just gravy.

  74. “But I’m starting to realize that I might just be an actual asshole too. Not good.”

    I tend to get along well with assholes for some reason.

  75. “The fun thing about storytelling is it doesn’t have to be real. Cave glances at phone, looks concerned, and says “looks like the FBI is going to surround this place to arrest me, let’s get out of here”.
    “ARREST YOU?”
    “It’s just a clusterfuck of a misunderstanding, my lawyers will sort it all out tomorrow, I just prefer not to spend the night in jail”
    Now you would think that any sensible woman (especially a potential mother to your children) would excuse herself and run away. But her boring pedestrian life has now become exciting. She’s in a movie.”

    Oh man, all you guys are freakin’ awesome. Seriously.

    This is the kind of shit that runs through my head AFTER the fact. “Oh! I should of said this!”

    I always tell myself, “Just open your mouth! The words are there! Just speak!”

    And then I speak and I think too much and get too rational and logical.

    Like I’m talking to a man and not a chick.

    I just need to lighten up.

  76. “I tend to get along well with assholes for some reason.”

    Birds of a feather and all that.

    (just playing)

  77. @CaveClown

    “I tend to get along well with assholes for some reason.”

    Birds of a feather and all that.

    Suddenly found myself picturing a turd with a bunch of feathers poked in to it.

    …don’t look at me like that. This is just where my brain goes.

  78. “(just playing)”

    Nah you’re not an asshole. 😛

    haha, I think scribbleberg hates me but he’s like my favorite commenter here. He seems like a huge asshole.

    BTW jealous of your pickup practice guys. I wish I could wing with you guys for a night. Someone tried to pickup my wife at a playground yesterday. So if it’s one of you let me know. haha.

  79. @dwellerman.

    This is a classic example of why I state game in the PUA form is very flawed. You entertained a woman for a brief period of time, but didn’t get a damn thing back from her in return besides a basic social interaction.
    I don’t suggest every time we open our mouths to women that we should force them to have sex, but let’s look at the FR dispassionately. An attractive woman in an urban area big enough to have a DMV has enough options to never need to talk to a strange man again. Ever.

    She’ll be nice, she’ll humor you, but at the end of the day you and the paint contractor are in the same place where she’s concerned -square uno. Neither of you banged her.Unless somethings missing from the story, neither of you will be either.

    Meanwhile she’s filtering thousands of muscular dudes off of Tinder and a few from her social circle for Alpha lays.The nature of the FI driven society means even middling attractive women have absurdly high options. My breaking point for realizing PUA was garbage is when I gamed a two set last month and the fat girl was dating a senior geneticist. Why the heck should a woman give a guy off the street the time of day when low SMV women punch that far above their paygrade? And in most cases they don’t. Even if your game is rock solid, she’s got options.

    If a woman wants you primally, she’ll go 9/10s the way to make it happen. No game required besides not epically screwing up. I’ve laid women wearing PJs, so that’s not just some skimmed off BS. If she’s not interested….why bother with the A1-A2-A3-DHV LMR bullpucky?

  80. Men should talk to women because it’s fun and interesting and there is a calculated chance that you might…just…get…laid, if that’s your angle.

    Women do have options, a lot of them don’t exercise their options though. You don’t know who you’re dealing with until you try to find out.

    Just because a fat chick is dating a geneticist, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything in particular. He could be fatter and uglier than she is, or she could be an amazing fuck.

    If you chat up a chick and nothing comes of it, that means zero in and of itself. You are right where you were initially, before you tried talking to her. She will not have you beheaded for striking up a conversation.

    I’m not a ” game ” guy, or a ” pua ” , but it’s pretty irrefutable that game increases a man’s success ratio. If a guy needs a plan then game works. It works better than ” Ummm Hi..”.

    I enjoyed dwellerman’s story. Real world stuff. I’ve chatted with thousands of broads and it ended up just being a conversation. No blood was shed. And sometimes you chat up a broad and you wind up taking her back to your room at the Essex House and bang her silly all night without knowing her last name. Sometimes you can’t have one scenario without the other.

  81. My breaking point for realizing PUA was garbage is when I gamed a two set last month and the fat girl was dating a senior geneticist. Why the heck should a woman give a guy off the street the time of day when low SMV women punch that far above their paygrade? And in most cases they don’t. Even if your game is rock solid, she’s got options.
    When you discuss “paygrade” you are comparing betabucks. The “senior geneticist” job title is about the fat girl dating more bucks. PUA is about fucks.

  82. redlight

    ” Paygrade ” is for shit.

    Of course sometimes he-who-has-the-most-bucks-wins, but generally idgaf about a guy’s pay with respect to getting women/laid.

    Rollo has stated it here, and I concur – a woman will fuck you without a high paygrade.

    Do not fear her ” options “. Fuck her options. LMFAO… Be her option.

    And if it doesn’t pan out, go have a really good burger.

  83. ” . . . an urban area big enough to have a DMV . . . ”

    795 population in the town down the road a piece from me. The main office is in a city under 100,000. My experience is that you have to be careful about even random encounters until you’re rather over 100,000.

    On the other hand, at 100,000 or less it can pay to simply chat up a lot of women. It come can come back to you later down the road. Make every woman some sort of plate or orbiter and you can pull one in to the inner circle any time you need one.

    Plus, why wouldn’t you simply chat up women because it’s enjoyable, even if it doesn’t lead to a lay? Another woman will be along shortly anyway if you’re in the mood.

  84. @SD

    My breaking point for realizing PUA was garbage is when I gamed a two set last month and the fat girl was dating a senior geneticist. Why the heck should a woman give a guy off the street the time of day when low SMV women punch that far above their paygrade? And in most cases they don’t. Even if your game is rock solid, she’s got options.

    Uh, I’m not trying to convince you that PUA is pure gold. But… geneticists might be smart, but they don’t make lots of money, neither is it a particularly exciting field (take samples, sequence DNA, attempt to link to evidence or disease, go home). Your career options with that degree are crime-lab, or university research, neither of which is particularly lucrative. It’s a low 6-figures path with minimal advancement at best, unless they work into management. I’d expect more alpha from engineers working at lockheed skunkworks by far.

    That fat chick was probably dating a classic beta male.

  85. “When you discuss “paygrade” you are comparing betabucks. The “senior geneticist” job title is about the fat girl dating more bucks. PUA is about fucks.”

    @blacklight.

    Therein lies the problem. You cannot negotiate attraction, not even using game. Either she finds you hawt, or she doesn’t.PUA is about selling the lie that you can speak magic incantations and every woman will want you. Not so. Either she wants you, in which case what you say won’t matter, or she wants your money. In the latter what you say definitely matters.

    In the quoted FR, she didn’t like the poster enough to continue the interaction past the DMV. That simple.

    He could have sorted out how much she liled him by just saying hello and making lively small talk. DHVing , qualifying, etc….overcomplicates the plot. If she likes you and youre behaving like a masculine man versus an indoctrinated drone shell WANT to jump into your frame.

    My paygrade analogy referred to SMV rank, not Beta Bucks financial specifics, but I can see the understanding oversight.

    Bottom line, either a girl wants you or not. If she does, converse normally and bring her back to your place or hers. If not, why bother with the A1-DHV-Build Rapport,escalate crap hard shit test!, freeze out, build kino, extract to secondary location ($20 cover please) , escalate, LMR, cycle.
    All of that effort to get an uninspiring lay because she only saw you as “relationship material” .We all know what THAT means.

    Meanwhile the guy she actually does like literally just says hello and drags her upstairs with barely token resistance. Game should be used in my view to filter attracted women from unattracted ones, and enhancing relationships when a man finds Feminine Enlightenment via the redpill after he’s married. Ive got empathy for those guys- they were doing what society said honorable men did, which is settle down with a good woman to have a family. While the FI has some blame for this, a lot of guys had dads who grew up before The Big Reversion and only passed on what worked for them. If your pops grew up in the 50s and 60s and married young, he could have lived his whole life totally clueless to the FI and only passed on to his son what worked for him.
    With the cost of divorce ensuring a man pays for his wife whether he’s with her or not , marriage is an economically permanent condition for most guys and they have to make do with where they are. This is where game should focus, IMO; there’s gonna be a lot of dudes who get burned after getting married , and we shouldn’t ignore them for it. Wed be just as married -yes I’m talking to you fellow bachelors-had we met the wrong woman with a slick enough bait and switch game.

    Using game in the PUA context however is like a fat girl wearing yoga pants to a red carpet premiere hoping Brad Pitt is gonna tap that.

  86. Using game in the PUA context however is like a fat girl wearing yoga pants to a red carpet premiere hoping Brad Pitt is gonna tap that.

    No, in the girl context, your advice would be to not wear makeup, don’t dye your hair, don’t wear heels, don’t whiten the teeth, don’t shave the underarm and leg hair, have a full bush, don’t wear a supporting bra, and “bottom line, either a guy wants you or not”

    Just Be Yourself(tm)

  87. @agent p

    The root code is to propagate the genes. The next level above that, is to propagate your genes but then to program the offspring to succeed to the next step of propagation.

    It did provoke that very discussion, apologies for any presumptions on my part.

    What @Rollo said, begin with the end in mind. How far off is your “end”?

    More practically, and shifting topics, my question would be, at what point do you consider an “end” for a plate that isn’t “next!” ? The commenters (myself included, and I’ve never married) and material here effectively discourages marriage. It does not discourage fatherhood. However, realistically we all know that the legal system in the developed world treats them as the same thing. So regardless of whether or not you ever marry.. if you find yourself reproducing, you’ll have to have already counted the cost of doing so with that woman. This begs the question, when is a plate someone you should start considering a drastically different “endgame” with? Isn’t it unrealistic to consider the end with every single plate? Perhaps that’s demanding too much explicit practicality from a situation so diverse in it’s reality.

Speak your mind

%d bloggers like this: