The Vetting Process

vetting

I apologize for interrupting the flow of this series’ posts, but I felt this question from reader Andy deserved a full stop:

I could care less who I’m talking to. IMO if you’re looking to disqualify a woman based on her sexual history you’re doing yourself a disservice because you better believe that the high quality chicks have been fucked in every way imaginable. If not you it’s somebody else… Might as well be you!

Have a look at this guy’s story in Saving the Best:

“I married a slut who fucks like a prude.”

Andy, I do agree with you in part. Too much overt concern (i.e. asking) about a woman’s sexual past is indeed demonstrating lower value. Men whom women consider Alpha, the men that women already have a mental impression of, don’t overly concern themselves with women’s sexual pasts because those men have multiple options going.

On some level of consciousness women know that if what he can glean from interacting with her about her sexual past is off-putting to an Alpha he’ll simply eject and move on to a better prospect. An Alpha mindset is often very minimalist, blunt and direct, but there are aspects of interacting with women that come as a default for a man who is his own Mental Point of Origin. One of those unspoken aspects is a self-understanding that he has options (or can generate more) and this is manifested in his indifference to a woman’s long term sexual suitability. If she doesn’t enter his Frame, to his satisfaction, he moves on to the next prospect with very little communication.

However, we weren’t discussing non-exclusive dating/fucking; we’re discussing making an investment in a woman we’re vetting for our own parental investment. When you consider the all-downside risks a man must wager on that investment it behooves him to be his most particular about that woman’s sexual past and the consequences that YOU will be burdened with if you don’t vet wisely.

Most men (myself included at the time) have very sparse prerequisites when it comes to their considering a woman for marriage or even an LTR. This lack of insight is the result of a constant battery of shame and preconditioning by the Feminine Imperative that tells men any requisites they would have of a woman for marriage are ‘passing judgement’ on her character. He should consider himself “lucky” that any woman would have him for a husband (or “put up with him”) and his concerns about her are shameful, typically male character flaws on his part.

Consequentially men rarely permit themselves the luxury of putting their own considerations above that of a potential mate.

Vetting

If you asked a woman whether she would be wary of marrying a man who was a recovering alcoholic or a cleaned up heroin addict she’d probably disqualify him as a marriage prospect from the outset. And were she to go ahead and marry him anyway with full disclosure of his past addictions, would we be sympathetic with her if he were to relapse and she to bear the brunt of his past indiscretions?

Now suppose that woman married this former addict, but due to his being offended about her prying into his past, she was ignorant of his old addictions. She has her suspicions, but society tells her it’s not her purview to hold him accountable for anything that happened in his past.

He’s moved on and so should she, right? Any lingering consequences from his addictions (such as a DUI, criminal record or his unemployability) shouldn’t be held against him, nor should she judge him, nor should she consider those consequences whatsoever when she’s assessing his suitability for marriage now.

In fact, she should feel ashamed to even consider his past with regard to her feelings about who he is. Her judgementalism only points to her own character flaws.

Now, would we praise that woman for “following her heart” and marrying him? Would we hold her accountable for the decision to marry him if he relapses?

Reverse the genders and this scenario is precisely why women become so hostile when men even hint at ‘judging’ women’s past sexual decisions. There is a very well established operative social convention that the sisterhood will all unanimously get behind; and that is the ruthless shaming of men who would ask any questions about any woman’s sexual past. This is the degree of desperation that women feel during the Epiphany Phase when they acknowledge men becoming aware of their long term sexual strategy.

They understand that, in their Epiphany Phase, the clock is ticking down to zero. That’s the cause of a lot of anxiety. They are just beginning to understand that their marriageability (Beta Bucks) now conflicts with their previous short-term mating strategy (Alpha Fucks). As I detailed in Betas in Waiting, women of this age cannot afford to have their short term sexual strategy count against them at a time when they are at their most necessitous of what that Beta can provide towards her long term security.

Again, on some level of consciousness, women understand that were the ignorant Beta she’s decided to marry (start a family with or help her raise her illegitimate children with) becomes aware of what she did in her sexual past he too might expect that same degree of sexual performance. The performance she reserved for the men she perceived as Alpha and freely gave to them.

Women must keep the details of that past secret and obscured. So grave is this anxiety that men must be punished for having the temerity to be curious about it. It is vitally important because a woman’s capacity to bond with a man is reduced with every new sexual partner. Every new sexual partner is a potential Alpha to be widowed by, but the man who marries her must be kept ignorant of those men if she is to secure his resources and his parental investment.

This social convention operates on absolving women’s past indiscretions by redefining them as a period of learning who she would become. It was her “journey of self-discovery” and she’s “not that person” any more. Cleverly enough this is exactly the same convention and same rationale of women who divorce their husbands later in life to “take the journey of self-discovery” of Eat, Prey, Love she passed up when she was younger.

Knowing this, it is also vitally important for men to keep women’s dualistic sexual strategy in mind at every age of her maturity.

Lets not forget the advice of Sheryl Sandberg here:

“When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

― Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead

Open Hypergamy is triumphantly crowed about when women are at their SMV peaks, and sometimes again once that woman has secured her long-term provider or divorced him, but when a woman is in her Epiphany Phase, when she’s anxious and frustrated in securing her own long term provisioning, that is when she will fall back on the social convention that shames men for their own awareness of the same Open Hypergamy they would otherwise flaunt for him.

So, now that we understand the latent purpose of this social convention, let me explain to every gentleman reading – vetting a woman’s sexual past is not just your prerogative, but an absolute imperative to the health of any future relationship you hope to have with her. When you consider the dire risks you are essentially setting yourself up for – risk no woman will EVER acknowledge or appreciate – the single most important thing you can do is vet that woman’s sexual past.

That doesn’t mean you make weak, DLV, overt inquiries about her past. It means you subtly, covertly and discretely pick up on the many cues and tells she will reveal that past with. Most men would rather use a direct approach to this, and while there’s merit to that, it’s far better to do your vetting by drawing out freely offered information. It’s much more honest and reliable. Once you go the direct route the jig is up and she will play the role she thinks you expect from her, not the honest one you need to make your determinations.

Sex is the glue that holds relationships together. It’s the height of irony that a woman would place so high a priority on her own sexual experiences while in her SMV peak yet completely disqualify that importance when she gets to the phase where it becomes a liability to her. As a man it is vitally important for you to know whether you’ll be her apex Alpha lover or if your burden of performance will be measured against the ghosts of Alpha men from her sexual past – all while you endure the stresses and joys of raising children with her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Dan Horton
Guest

This is one of my favorite subjects because, due to the internet, the jig is slowly becoming up. I routinely see posts on reddit with girls simply amazed that the guy she’s with didn’t get the message that her past matters. It’s always amazing to me how girl’s have utterly no sympathy for just how important it is for a guy. Instead it’s supposed to be some sort of reward that they are the last one to ride the hoe train? Give me a break. Anyways, here’s one from just the other day: https://archive.is/7zVfJ . The justice is sweet, but… Read more »

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rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh

Women and transparency make up the best science fiction.
Rollo before you right your red pill novel please read this one for some interesting ideals.
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Library-Classics-Yevgeny-Zamyatin/dp/081297462X

Andrew Post
Guest

Interesting post. I have long since accepted how many men the girls I sleep with have been with. I do not care, but I am not looking for any long term investment either. However, I am that alpha to most of these girls. I get their sexual best. I get anal, enthusiastic blowjobs, and I get all of this investing little to no time in them. So here is my question. Depending on what level you are at, is it possible that the count really does not matter if you demonstrate high enough value? If I were to get married,… Read more »

kaizersoze71
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genius using the former addict analogy Rollo

SJF
Guest
SJF

“If I were to get married, I could imagine I would still be getting her sexual best due to the fact that a lot of guys out there are very much beneath me. I probably will not, because I think marriage is an archaic sham, but I cannot discount the possibility.” Andrew, you could even change the question to if I were to have a Long Term Relationship. There might be value in a long term relationship. And once you give up your commitment card, you don’t have it in your hand anymore. And Nexting in a long term relationship… Read more »

keyser Soze
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keyser Soze

@Rollo,
When men becomes indifferent to women’s N count (regardless of how many alphas or Betas in her N count) , don’t you think the FI / women’s sexual revolution SUCCEDED in sexual Equality?

What about the psychological / physiological impact on women ,due the their high N count(regardless of who many alphas or Betas) ?

Ps,
An alpha who is dating a high N count women, is NEVER alpha.

keyser Soze
Guest
keyser Soze

,due to their high N count(regardless of how many alphas or Betas) ?

Sorry.

Hux5599
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Hux5599

I have been lurking on this site for a while. I entirely agree with the above post. I brought up the topic of hypergamy, in a politically correct rephrasing, to two females I know well, that is mother and sister. Their answer was that women have a shorter reproductive window and they understandably obsess and speed up the search for a long-term mate. This also explains why they move on fast from one partner to the next. Then, they as human beings, enjoy the fun there is to be had. Putting myself in their shoes I understand that, what would… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh

@SJF “Develop Mastery before you need it. It is better to have mastery and not need it, than to need it and not have it.” “Think of it this way: There are two kinds of failure. The first comes from never trying out your ideas because you are afraid, or because you are waiting for the perfect time. This kind of failure you can never learn from, and such timidity will destroy you. The second kind comes from a bold and venturesome spirit. If you fail in this way, the hit that you take to your reputation is greatly outweighed… Read more »

Jack-Jack
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Jack-Jack

@Rollo

Another great post!

@Dan Horton

Great example of AF/BB and hypergamy at its best. The best part was her hamsterism regarding her teenage years when she was “pressured into things she didnt want to do and didn’t know how to say no”. (Ex post facto ASD, perhaps?) Her statement begs the question: does this include the unprotected sex that resulted in your child at 19?

Like I said, great example!

Opus
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Opus

I once had a girlfriend (who I dropped) and who in a letter to me, which I still have and that is surely why I remember this, wrote: “Sex, as you know [Did I?] was unknown to me until I was twenty-two.”: As if the fact, to which she confessed, – or boasted – that between the ages of twenty-six and twenty-eight she had had sexual intimacy with over three-hundred men somehow negatived her alleged latish adoption of rampant promiscuity. Imagine a serial killer saying: “it is true I killed a few but none before the age of thirty”. She… Read more »

StrongivenC
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StrongivenC

“When looking for a life partner, my advice to men is fuck all of them: the bad girls, the party girls, the commitment-phobic girls, the crazy girls. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad girls easy do not make them good wives. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants to be a better partner. Someone who thinks women should be loyal, not easy and trustable. Someone who values her fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do her share in the home. These women exist and, trust me, over time, nothing… Read more »

Philalethes
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Philalethes

… a woman’s capacity to bond with a man is reduced with every new sexual partner. Two-three weeks ago a comment on an Androsphere blog (might have been Heartiste) noted that recent/current research is now finding that male sperm actually modifies a woman’s DNA – that every occasion of coitus results in physical/genetic effects in the woman’s body (which is not separate from the mind) long after the seminal fluid has drained/washed out of the vagina/uterus. Essentially, if you’re copulating with a non-virgin, you are also copulating with all her previous “partners”. Certainly adds a whole lot more weight to… Read more »

Andy
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Andy

Fair enough. Not sure how realistic your expectations might be, but everything is relative I guess.

Yollo Comanche
Guest
Yollo Comanche

Didn’t you say, in your first book, that no man ever successfully vet a woman EVER???

JD
Guest
JD

It is impossible to completely know a woman’s sexual past. But it is entirely possible to know her age. If the average woman is becoming sexually active at 16, and she’s 28 now, that’s 12 years of sucky-fucky. She wants the $20K walk with the baby right after, because that’s her schedule. It is what it is, and you can’t blame them, it works. Their world is not man-world. The primary male response is self-improvement. Raise your quality, relentlessly. The lower-quality and more pathetic the Beta chump waiting at the end of the aisle, compared to the upgraded same-age guy… Read more »

JD
Guest
JD

@StrongivenC, well done.

snowdensjacket0x0x0
Guest

Hux5599,

You don’t care if you get divorce raped, have your life destroyed, turned into a child support slave for children you may not even get to see, much less have any influence on their lives, because in your mind your purpose is over once some of your sperm enter a woman’s egg?

Then why would you even bother to get married or have any relationship, beyond sexual, at all?

mdavid
Guest
mdavid

Rollo, There is a very well established operative social convention that the sisterhood will all unanimously get behind; and that is the ruthless shaming of men who would ask any questions about any woman’s sexual past. Not true. Women are quite harsh and bitter against promiscuous women (their definition). They are more likely to attack than get behind others. And it’s a gradient thing. Women w/3 partners before their epiphany mock those w/10. Virgins (yes, they still exist in certain communities) harshly mock those with just 1. This makes sense when sitting on the sideline as other women bask in… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Andy October 10th, 2015 at 2:36 pm

“Fair enough. Not sure how realistic your expectations might be, but everything is relative I guess.”

Heheh. Andy, that’s all you got to say?

Don’t take your ball and go home. We enjoy your input. And I’m not just shit testing you. I’m sincere.

Hux5599
Guest
Hux5599

@ Snowdensjackettoxoxo I never said I wanted to get married in the first place. As a sollicitor, I know all too well how money matters turn people into unrelenting fiends. I do not intend to get into this bag of problems. The trick to avoid the plight of marriage is to date liberal-romantic-dreamy women, they do not give a toss about marriage, for them it is but a means to submit the woman. Who said feminism had no bright side ? Regarding reproduction I stand by what I said. I, as a living creature, have no other purpose but disseminate… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Philalethes: Your search term for the day is “microchimerism”.

Here’s a video by a MGTOW cellular biologist going into it. It’s a bit of a rambling answering viewer questions video, so if you want to get right to it start at about 9:20 in.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@mdavid: “Not true. Women are quite harsh and bitter against promiscuous women . . .”

How women behave within the circle is not the same as how they behave toward men.

Just as members of a sports team might hate each other’s guts, yet still come together to beat the opposing team.

JSmith
Guest
JSmith

Great post as usual Rollo. As a man in my mid 20’s who was enlightened the past couple of years, I can’t thank you enough for the insight that you have given me. Back on topic, I’m guessing around 10-15% of girls in their 20’s are virgins; depending on ethnicity, religion, and other factors. ATTRACTIVE girls that are still virgins in their 20s would probably be close to 1-2%. By 25 years old I’m guessing it’s closer to 0.5%. It really depends on lots of factors. Then again this is all anecdotal and I’m sure I can dig up stats… Read more »

dontLeadTheWitness
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dontLeadTheWitness

Key in the vetting is to avoid “leading the witness.” Remain non judgemental about as much as we can to build comfort so she will relax and reveal more true colors. “So, are you a slut?” gets us the politically correct but unreliable answer: “Not me!” But: “I once had an interesting neighbor who seemed to have a new man visiting weekly. Musta been a lot of fun.” Then shut up and pay attention to all her responses – words, tone, facial/body language, etc. Yes, awalt, and never stop leading, but there are female humans who recognize the value of… Read more »

Atticus
Guest
Atticus

@Hux. “Putting myself in their shoes I understand that, what would you do if you, a man, became reproductively impotent by the age of 25-26 ? I know I would frantically search my soulmate or at least someone to carry my seed.” Not sure what species you are speaking of, but human women are not impotent at 26. The rest of your comment is even more assume. “Give a woman a nest and she’ll be happy”. Really? How many unhappy, dead bedrooms are there in nests bought and paid for by men? A lot. “Once you get a kid you… Read more »

Atticus
Guest
Atticus

The rest of your comment is even more asinine.

Not Born This Morning
Guest

Feminism – the quibbling over mutual respect and or reciprocal appreciation have always been part of the sexual social dynamic between the sexes. Human life follows a process as any other life form. We are born, grow and develop through childhood and adolescence, reach sexual maturity, mate reproduce, raise our progeny, live awhile longer, age out and die. This natural biological, physiological process follows its own natural timeline coinciding with natural development and decline of the human organisim. Natural hormonal flow and ebb, physical health and optimal physiological state as well as intellectual perspectives also follow a natural optimally evolved… Read more »

Jafyk
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Jafyk

I was gonna say that if you asked her. She’d probably lie and therefore a man can’t really know but you sort of addressed that.
So, my question then is what are good covert ways to getting at the truth especially for those of still struggling to get past our blue pill past? What kinds of questions should we ask or what kinds of subtle disclosures should we be on the lookout for?

Philalethes
Guest
Philalethes

@kfg: Your search term for the day is “microchimerism”.

Thanks much, very interesting. “A 2012 study at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, Seattle, has detected cells with the Y chromosome in multiple areas of the brains of deceased women.” (Wikipedia) Hmmm.

It’s all far more complex than anybody has yet imagined.

keyser Soze
Guest
keyser Soze

Vetting.
The difficult :
Her Mom and Dad.
Her brothers and sisters.
The neighborhood.
Her friends.
Her travel history.

The easy :
Her Facebook history (since 2005).
Her Twitter history.
Her selfie history.
Her texts.
Her IP addresses history (?).
Be like an insurance agent.
Ps,
Me, a cynic!

benfromtexas
Guest
benfromtexas

@Dan Horton

That link is hilarious.

Rollo’s right about the past of the female matters. For good looking women this is critical. The better looking the girl, then the more opportunities she has for short term guys. A fattie SJW ain’t gonna be a guest at the local orgy party.

Travis
Guest
Travis

Rollo has gotten a lot of mileage out of that Sandberg quote.

Andrew Spooner
Guest

Larry Correia and Brad Torgersen started the “Sad Puppies” movement. Vox Day along with his compatriots started the “Rabid Puppies.” I am am starting a new movement. The “Hungry Wolves” movement. Don’t play by their rules, don’t try and beat them at their own game. Don’t play checkers with somebody who can’t play chess just so you can make them look stupid in order to get more views for your webpage or customers for your books. Fuck ’em. Strategically edit them out of the equation completely. That is how we win. Don’t just “beat them at their own game.” CHANGE… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky

Man, fuck AA. Day gaming today and had like 5 warm sets within an hour, some of them solo. Cute girl with a camera isolated herself from her party and kept ending up wherever I was, stood right next to me a few times w/ no-one around. Not. A. Single. Approach. I walk around with ten thousand kilos of swagger, have deadly eye contact, throw me in a set and I’m golden. WTF. Need a good wing with balls to kick me in the ass a few times to get used to it, or something. Dunno what my deal is.… Read more »

Robert James Griffith
Guest

You hit the nail on the head with this piece. To be fair, I have always been good with women. I have had a better than average understanding about women due to my Red Pill upbringing. I thank my father for that. I don’t say that to brag or boast. Nor do I say that to try and proclaim my self some sort of ladies man. In fact I say it only to illustrate just how much knowledge your articles contain. The fact I find myself learning more and more from your website is a admission of just how in-depth… Read more »

Antonio Cienfuegos
Guest

I remember you saying Rollo that your wife had some ‘previous sexual experience’. I’m also pretty damn sure that you said that a woman having had previous sexual experience wasn’t necessarily a bad thing. So – how did you vet her, then? What did you look into – and what did you ultimately decide to marry her?

keyser Soze
Guest
keyser Soze

Travis, “Rollo has gotten a lot of mileage out of that Sandberg quote.”

That Sandberg quote, is the MANIFESTO of alpha fux/beta bucks.
Rollo is quite right to use it for another 50 years.

teddj4g
Guest
teddj4g

Posted this in the last thread by mistake. You know what I tell my boys? All women are crazy, the trick is to find the brand of crazy you can deal with. In RP terms, AWALT but to varying degrees. When it comes to LTR/Marriage, there are valid reasons to pursue them. Maybe not for you, and probably not for me in the future, but the most obvious is children. There are no unicorns or “quality women”. There are women. Of course AWALT, but as I said to different degrees individually. So vetting a LTR prospect isn’t about finding a… Read more »

Philomathean
Guest
Philomathean

You can tease out an approximation of a girl’s knob count. A couple weeks ago I got this 27 year old to offer her number, which was 12. I was immediately turned off and contemplated the possibility of a hard Next for a few minutes, before I actually detonated the whole thing. I told her I can never be with a girl with such a sordid past, and she countered with the notion that her sexual past made her the best she can be….For me! I was genuinely disgusted. My buddy gave me a hard time for this because I… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

Wasn’t the point of the original comment esentially:

Good luck finding a girl of legal age and decent attractiveness that doesn’t already have at least 5 sexual partners?

I think the question is one of practicality, not of idealistic standards. We all know that the fewer partners the better, but do those girls even exist anymore?

JazzHands
Guest
JazzHands

Try her ‘diary’ or any personal momentos – if they’re young enough, which they should be, they will have.

Came across my ex’s – had 19 guy names…I’m reading the names (hey, there’s me!). There was one titled “one night stand”.

She’s 22. Par for the course these days.

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

Alright, I’m better now. Got a gameplan. Let y’all know how it goes tomorrow.

JazzHands
Guest
JazzHands

@ Philomathean – 12 kills for 27 is pretty fucking decent these days. Round up to 15, even still..

JazzHands
Guest
JazzHands

My bad triple posting, though as McQueen states, if you truly wish to wife up a broad – pay a P.I. to follow her around for at least a week. Get a player buddy she doesn’t know have hit on her..

dexteranddeedee
Guest

If in 2015 you still want to marry,even after reading a blog that puts the secret right to your fucking eyes,…….

If she’s not my past and only,I won’t marry her,all this
crap is red pill rationalisation. There’s no such thing as a low notch count.One ass-fuck is still one ass-fuck.
If you’re that desperate to marry,you could horde money and book one Muslim’s daughter in some middle-eastern country.I personally think Rollo is trying to save face coz he married a woman with a “low notch count”.

xabi
Guest
xabi

A woman (who was 29 at that time) that I used to see years ago had the +300 men names she had sex with written in a diary, with anotations and numerical marks on looks, clothes, penis size, general performance, etc. While I was browsing in that recently discovered diary with my eyes wide open, I saw noticed my name written on it. Despite the review she gave me was in fact quite good I realize I was not the best lol. I must say I didn’t feel really attracted to that woman, and I know that not being the… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@dexteranddeedee

I personally think Rollo is trying to save face coz he married a woman with a “low notch count”

Which is why he goes to great pains to make it clear that if he suddenly found himself not married tomorrow, he wouldn’t do it again. Clearly you’re on to something here.

SD
Guest
SD

It seems we have a catch 22 at work here. On one hand, the rational response would be to never commit to a woman ever and perpetually plate spin given the high N count of most women .If we are honest, this philosophy is only going to work for a limited number of men . Reality of things are that we live in a matriarchy, which means even average fat women have more options then any of us will ever. Saying the deck is stacked against us in the SMV marketplace is a major understatement. As such , if you’re… Read more »

lh
Guest
lh

Of course it makes sense to listen to your women telling you about herself and they like to do as Rollo says. The more she trusts you (because you give a shit), the more she’ll tell you. And if you get close or past her past alpha-experiences, her emotional treasures, she will remember those, compare and tell you about it, at least if you passed. I’m tempted to believe if she doesn’t tell you something about it, it’s the worse sign, because then you lost to her past but she doesn’t want to tell you of course. I lost any… Read more »

benfromtexas
Guest
benfromtexas

I remember in college a girl I was hooking up with joked with me one night that I was #69. Naturally the number of the sexual position was funny to her. That was my 1sr experience with knowing a woman with a high number. I didn’t want to date her then. It was a weird experience. I knew a girl who once got an abortion and she hit on me. I didn’t do anything with her because I wasn’t attracted after knowing that. I think we are hard wired not to pair bond with high volume women. She can’t be… Read more »

redlight
Guest
redlight

Today’s Dear Abby has the modern FI marriage in betaville: DEAR ABBY: I have been with my husband, “Elliot,” for six years, married for two. We’re financially stable and have great, supportive families. One of our biggest issues is that Elliot needs to be emotionally coddled, and I give in to it. It’s taxing to be the strong one all the time, and the result is I don’t feel as attracted to him. He complains that I’m “not fun” anymore or that I’m a “prude.” Now that I’m pregnant, things have gotten worse. I expected to be treated like a… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

I wonder if we are tredding close to developeing superstitions with regard to vetting. I’m using the definition from psychology, in that people have a tendancy to formulate beliefs to explain things when there isn’t enough data to form a real patern. With todays high N count women, I don’t know that the sample size of low N count women is statistically significant anymore. I feel bad for todays young man that wants to have a family. You might get lucky and find a low N woman. Or you might find a deceptive little psychopath that is amazingly good at… Read more »

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bnon
Guest
bnon

@SD: Flipping the script wouldn’t amount to a Patriarchy at all.

In any case, Gedankenexperiment: What do you guys think would the world be like if men stopped being capable of producing sperm at 42? How would ‘Alpha’ be different?

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

@bnon

All of our biological urges are geared toward reproduction. If became infernal at 42, we would likely loose attractiveness as well.

But in the end, that isn’t how it works. All of this stuff should be viewed amorally. I think all judgements being made are simply being made from the standpoint of what is going to work best for us as individuals.

Women with high N counts should be avoided. Not because of some moral judgement, but because they are likely to take the piss out of us, given the current fem-centric legal and social environment.

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

Got the typos. Is there a way to edit our posts?

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

I get all of this and don’t disagree for those of you looking to get married. Unicorn hunting is indeed your lot in this life. But do the rest of us a favor, please: Stop whining that there are so few unicorns, okay? You are the one’s headed off on a unicorn hunt – it’s not the only path available to you. Have you all forgotten that the unicorn of fables doesn’t exist, that by definition the unicorn is chimerical? One could also look at marriage objectively and decide whether that makes sense at all for you. One could carefully… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Forge – That is the spirit, buddy. I bet you had a lot more fun at that festival demonstrating high value and evaluating interest than spending a day unicorn hunting, yes? A high value male in his prime, being who he is naturally is like catnip in today’s world. Also worth noting that you are not in a bar. Many guys reduce pick up to bars – I cannot do bar pickup for the most part at my age. I do sarge at bars every week or two with a wingman to sharpen my claws as I still approach and… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

Article from a top VC at Andreesen Horowitz and tech zillionaire who sold off his company. https://medium.com/working-parents-in-america/success-at-work-failure-at-home-f1d6f5d8d92f Read it and see if it jumps out at you the way it did me. My observations: 1. He never once takes credit for providing an excellent material life and financial security for his family. This is very common in today’s world – if you are successful financially, it just becomes a given. You aren’t to be thanked or acknowledged. And certainly there will be no allowances made for all the time spent working to create a lotto-winner lifestyle for his family. OMG… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

@scribblerg,

It would be great if these dudes could just give up the unicorn hunt, but another unfortunate truth is some of these guys feel a strong pull toward wanting a family. There is simply no good answer for these guys in these times. They either have to suppress the urge for a family, or role the dice and try to bias the results the best they can. Let them lament their circumstances. They have much to figure out.

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Isthisthingon – Or not. I can also try to shock them out of their hypnosis. NEWSFLASH: Being a dad isn’t all that great in many ways these days. It’s best it’s mostly thankless, but for most men they are fathering into a culture that denigrates them, laughs at them and is hagiographic of motherhood. If you think this won’t effect how your children see you as a father, you are fucking kidding yourself. I used to ride the train back and forth to the city – leaving my home at 6:30 in the morning and returning at 7:30 or later,… Read more »

Roused
Guest
Roused

Thank you Scribbler, some good Sunday morning inspiration and multiple reminders about so many key things I’m learning. Filling my mental “space” on these concepts and practices DAILY keeps me motivated to march forward into the challenges, shit tests and whatever is thrown my way. Each day I feel more confident and strong knowing what I read here makes damn good logical sense. It’s like what Rollo has for his site tagline: Why do my eyes hurt? You’ve never used them. Once your sore gooy eyes are fully opened you can’t close them. If you do it’s suicide or cognitive… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

and no, i don’t care about typos here. i produce error-free, grammatically sound prose for work and it’s tedious. here i’m just having a conversation. some feel differently, cest la vie…me, can’t spend the time to get it all perfect just for blog commenting. hope that doesn’t piss you guys off too much.

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

re: typos – I should also reveal that i have a degenerative condition in one eye that makes visual processing of information more difficult for me so editing is very tedious and hard for me. I edit very carefully for my “work” and it feels like a burden when i’m just chilling, commenting here with you guys. so, a little mercy on this count would be appreciated. i do a quick edit of course but i can only catch everything by doing three line edits, which is boring as shit.

SJF
Guest
SJF

Some of your best comments ever ScribblerG. And that is saying a lot because of your previous excellent commentary. I’m not just trying to suck up, either. It’s rational, practical, solid advice and advances the conversation tremendously and is terribly engaging. I for one don’t see your comments this morning as being negative either. A man’s capacity to receive another man’s criticism (here the criticism being to “stop searching for unicorns”–which is spot on practical criticism and mainline red pill advice in contrast with society’s blue pill advice to the contrary) reflects on his capacity to be better at being… Read more »

teddj4g
Guest
teddj4g

Scribblerg – A man doesn’t necessarily have to want to be a modern “dad” to want children. Its a basic biological drive and the only way to “win” the evolution game. No children means no passing on of lineage/DNA. Its easy for me to shrug my shoulders because I already have children. But, one of them is a 16 year old boy that wants to have a family. Today that means either rolling the dice on a LTR with a modern woman, or a small gaggle of baby mammas. The search for a decent woman to father your children with… Read more »

dragnet
Guest
dragnet

I addressed this exact issue here: https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-30876-post-598034.html#pid598034 “It’s definitely true that women will lie about their sexual history—their ability to secure long-term provisioning is a stake so there much incentive for them to be dishonest. But in my experience, if you come across non-judgmental and you win a girl’s trust she’ll tell you what you want to know about her history. In obtaining this information, your biggest ally is time. Yes a woman will lie—but no one can lie forever and keep all their lies, backstories and details straight. Like most worthwhile information, the truth about a girl’s sexual history… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Knowing that its NOT likely to be a lifetime commitment up front allows them to use it for their purposes (to have children) and then remove himself from it as cleanly and efficiently as possible if . . . ”

. . .he keeps his priorities straight and vets legal jurisdictions and lawyers before he even begins vetting women.

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“here the criticism being to “stop searching for unicorns”” I disagree. a man should always go after what he wants. rare commodities command a high cost. some are worth the cost, some not. do the math and REALISTICALLY hunt for unicorns. narrow your search to the range most likely to produce results. accept the fact that outliers don’t exist. she will be very young. she will have a very low count. she will make everything easy. she will smile a lot. laugh a lot. suck your cock a lot. it will be obvious that you are the most important person… Read more »

teddj4g
Guest
teddj4g

KFG – “. . .he keeps his priorities straight and vets legal jurisdictions and lawyers before he even begins vetting women.” Yep. Ideally a man should be looking into that in late college so they can plan to relocate to a less man-hating legal jurisdiction after graduation and get to work. This also means its great practice to start hunting in college, but completely unrealistic to believe you’ll find the future mother of your children before the age of 25. (unless you are in a small college in a more traditional town, and find a woman willing to move anywhere… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

I don’t think the debate about whether to get married or not or the debate about waiting for a unicorn is practical. (That is different than pointing out that a unicorn is chimeric. A unicorn is chimeric). The topic of marriage being a goal was well expressed in http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/29/as-good-as-it-gets/ Rollo: ‘As I stated in Fidelity, I’m not anti-marriage, I’m anti- uninformed, pollyanna, shoulda’-saw-it-coming, ONEitis fueled, shame induced, bound for bankruptcy, scarred my children for life, hypergamy’s a bitch, marriage. So, what is important is not having pre-conceived notions about what your completion in life is going to be. There isn’t… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Fleezer “here the criticism being to “stop searching for unicorns”” I disagree. a man should always go after what he wants. rare commodities command a high cost. some are worth the cost, some not. do the math and REALISTICALLY hunt for unicorns. narrow your search to the range most likely to produce results. accept the fact that outliers don’t exist. she will be very young. she will have a very low count. she will make everything easy. she will smile a lot. laugh a lot. suck your cock a lot. it will be obvious that you are the most important… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@Fleezer – Good for you. One question for you. How many unicorns do you think there are? How many men here are capable of locking one down? As for you, how long do you think she’ll be impervious to a culture that is telling her your relationship is sick and abusive? Or what if you get sick? What if you get in an accident and are injured? Have a downturn in your fortunes? Or what if an even more alpha guy moves in next door and smacks that ass while you are at work? You don’t think she’ll respond? Do… Read more »

teddj4g
Guest
teddj4g

“I only understand what I make” Its been said here many times that you have to train a woman to be a good wife. THIS is the meaning. The purpose of vetting is to find a woman you can train WITHOUT ridiculous amounts of effort on your part AND is likely to be trainable. If you need an apple for your dinner plans, you pick the least rotten one out of the barrel you have to choose from, and integrate it into your recipe. We talk here about how women use men for provisioning as part of their plan. So,… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

re: Having kids I think black men have broken the code on this culturally. Bang as many out as you can and move on, pay the bill but don’t sign up for the bullshit of marriage. Have a harem of baby mommas who compete for your attention and affections. I’ve not yet seen a monogamous white man who’s approach to marriage impresses me. Mostly what I see are entitled bitches making hell of many excellent men’s lives – and more than a few alpha dog kind of guys are part of that group. We white men have to start really… Read more »

teddj4g
Guest
teddj4g

Problem with the baby mama approach is it leads to thuggery. No father means boys with no guidance of any kind. RP can’t be top down, it just won’t work. Individuals can affect change in their realm of influence. If the goal is to simply pass on DNA, baby mama is probably the most efficient route. You may even get to be involved with the kid if you play your cards right. If you want the chance to actually shape your children, you can’t do it if you aren’t there. There’s no doubt its a thankless burden. You may find… Read more »

SD
Guest
SD

@Teddij4g “Problem with the baby mama approach is it leads to thuggery. No father means boys with no guidance of any kind. RP can’t be top down, it just won’t work. Individuals can affect change in their realm of influence..” Disagree. The realm of influence of most Dads today is zero. Whether you’re in the relationship or not. A lot of guys think sticking around for the kids is proper and that they can make a difference . As the product of a single mom-turned traditional family , I’ll just dispel that notion right now. Moms-everywhere-are in concept single parents… Read more »

kobayashii1681
Guest

” If she doesn’t enter his Frame, to his satisfaction, he moves on to the next prospect with very little communication.”

Words every man, esp RP men, should internalise and live by….

lh
Guest
lh

I think one should make the women cry from time to time. On as many different ways as possible probably. It’s a game: to what extremes can you push her feelz? I like it when they cry.

Not Born This Morning
Guest

@Travis “Rollo has gotten a lot of mileage out of that Sandberg quote.” True and rightly so. However, Sandbergs urge to women is overreaching and indicative of a failing imperative. Why else would she make such statements unless in reality women aren’t actually capatilizing upon that imperititive to the extent Sandberb and others like her prefer? No such call to action is ever made without a present lack of that action or at least the perception of lack. Sandberg calls women to exercise open hypergamy precisely because Sandberg perceives a lack of it, or at least not enough of it… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

Although “Saving the Best” still beats this one, this post and particularly the comments are somewhat depressing 🙂 I don’t think it is quite that bad (but I’m not in the U.S.). Or I’m still in denial! @Rollo and others, serious question: a few of us got into LTR / marriage as a virgin, with a virgin. Assuming that she hasn’t been unfaithful, how much of a premium should these circumstances commend? On one hand I see all the doom and gloom in this post and comments; on the other hand, Rollo had a valid comment to a recent post… Read more »

scribblerg
Guest
scribblerg

@SD – Adapt and thrive. Too many guys here are hanging on to an illusion of fatherhood and family that is rare today. Not undoable of course, clearly there are masters of the universe-19 inch cocked-fundo christian alpha-nubile virginal christian waif attracting machines™ here who believe they can create a counterculture because they are better men. For the rest of us slobs though, perhaps signing up to have your guts ripped out, your money confiscated and nobody giving a flying shit is not the best approach. There is something worse than not having kids – that’s having your kids shit… Read more »

kobayashii1681
Guest

This post was necessary…. It’s important for men not to rush into any commitment, and to have options, especially these guys who meet a chic and within a few months its moved from a few bangs, to official, to moving in together, to rings, and/or being trapped with children (which may not be yours)… Enjoy playing with them and playing WITH them; For me, if I find chics who I deem are suitable for my seed and to share in my life, then I would carry on with them for a year or 2….if you fall for those tests and… Read more »

cheupez
Guest

What Scribblerg said. By the way @Scribblerg thanks for not mincing words. Even when you are tearing someone a new one, you leave little doubt to the contrary. Heheheeee… Anyway, just to reiterate: A unicorn is a mythical creature. myth·i·cal [miTHək(ə)] adj occurring in or characteristic of myths or folk tales. “one of Denmark’s greatest mythical heroes” synonyms: legendary, mythological, fabled, fabulous, folkloric, fairy-tale, storybook; More fantastical, imaginary, imagined, fictitious, storied “mythical beasts” •idealized, especially with reference to the past. “a mythical age of contentment and social order” •fictitious. “a mythical customer whose name appears in brochures” synonyms: imaginary, fictitious,… Read more »

bnon
Guest
bnon

Female psychology student reporting in. Due to current events, I’m gonna skip Rollos timeline and go straight for the Bux

http://i.imgur.com/v2riquX.png

cheupez
Guest

I think Rollo’s timeline is unskippable. She did not skip anything, she just rode the CC too furiously and was finished with it earlier than most.

benfromtexas
Guest
benfromtexas

That’s awesome if it’s real.

theasdgamer
Guest

Rollo, had an eye-opening experience where a woman was exposing the incredible sexuality of women. The group was definitely Blue Pill–mixture of men and women. I was out with a group–some old friends and new acquaintances I had just met through our meetup hiking event. After 3.5 hours of hiking, we went to a vineyard to drink wine and eat cheese, sausage, and carbs. We stayed there about 4 hours. A MILF in our group got pretty loaded. She started talking about how she told her pre-teen daughters about sexuality. Like about how they need to make sure condoms are… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@bnon If I had a dollar for every time I saw one of those… @scribblerg What truly astounds me is guys that need the Red Pill to come to the point of realizing marriage is a bum deal. Long before learning all this shit I looked at marriage and said “Why would I flip a coin with half of my shit to have a woman in the house that won’t have sex with me after the experiences I’ve had with women?” I was 25 thinking that. It eventually solidified a few years ago in to the thought that I would… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

@ dragnet Got a FR on this topic. A broad flaked (1.5 hours late) to a platonic dance date on a Fri. night. She gave BS excuses about why she was late. The next evening, a buddy told me that another guy had flaked on a woman he had seen on Friday who had told him about her being flaked on Fri. night. And the woman who had flaked on me had been giving major IOIs to the other guy. She even denied that she had set up a date, lol. Of course, because I got intel, I can see… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

Taming of the Shrew is needed for all women.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong
Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

” I have been lurking on this site for a while. I entirely agree with the above post. I brought up the topic of hypergamy, in a politically correct rephrasing, to two females I know well, that is mother and sister. Their answer was that women have a shorter reproductive window and they understandably obsess and speed up the search for a long-term mate. This also explains why they move on fast from one partner to the next. Then, they as human beings, enjoy the fun there is to be had. Putting myself in their shoes I understand that, what… Read more »

myreality's sockpuppet
Guest

I’m a happily married woman. I had lot’s of sex before marriage with probably something like 30 men. Not sure of the exact number, but I had a great time. Up until I met my husband, none of the important factors lined up to make those relationships viable as long term partnerships. Either the timing was very wrong (pre 24 or so on my end) or the men were not what I wanted in a future husband other than being very sexy. When I met my husband, who I have lots of fabulous sex with to this day, all of… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Hux5599

ಠ_ಠ

Lurk moar.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Itsasecret

Either the timing was very wrong (pre 24 or so on my end) or the men were not what I wanted in a future husband other than being very sexy.

Textbook hypergamy confirmed.

If he ever stumbles, you’re gonna bail on him without hesitation.

myreality's sockpuppet
Guest

@ Sun Wukong – I’m not so sure… one thing this and other similar blogs have opened my eyes to is the reality of a woman’s sexual power after a certain age. I had a lot of fun in my late teens and early 20’s as a very attractive woman. I’m not sure I’d enjoy trying that again as an aging woman. Plus, contrary to the idea that a woman who has slept with a lot of men can no longer bond, I feel very bonded to my husband. In fact, I related to Rollo’s story about his early criteria… Read more »

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