Red Pill Parenting – Part I

Red Pill Parenting

“If I’m not going to have children, she told herself, then I’m going to have lovers.” – Robin Rinaldi, The Wild Oats Project.

In last week’s essay I put an emphasis on men’s understanding women’s rudimentary doubt of their Hypergamous choices with regards to rearing children and the overall health of a family. There are a great many social factors in our westernized feminine-centric social structure that encourages women to delay both marriage and becoming a mother well past their prime fertility windows.

In the Myth of the Biological Clock I detailed the misconceptions women hold with have with regard to their own capacity of having children later in life:

Popular culture likes to teach women and, by association, unenlightened men that there is an innate biological clock inside each woman that slowly ticks down to a magical period where her maternal instincts at long last predispose her to wanting a child. Perhaps, not so surprisingly, this coincides perfectly with the Myth of Women’s Sexual Peak as well as conveniently being the age demographic just post or just prior to when most women hit the Wall.

[…]I wont argue that women actually possess maternal instincts, I will argue that their understanding of when they manifest has been deliberately distorted by a feminine-centric cultural influence. If women are “angry” about the revelation their inability or difficulty to conceive in their post-Wall biological conditions presents, their anger is misdirected. Rather than come down from the heady pedestal of ego-invested female empowerment psychology, they’ll blame men for not being suitable fathers, or lacking a will to “play-by-the rules” and satisfy the dictates of the feminine imperative by whiling away their time in porn and video game induced comas.

The “have it all” mentality popularized by feminism has led to some very bad social effects for women on whole. While a great deal of “having it all” is couched in messaging that appeals to enabling ’empowered®’ women get a similar deal from career life that men are supposedly enjoying, the subtext in this message is one of never settling for a less than Hypergamously optimal (better than, not equal) monogamous pairing with a man.

The “have it all” advertising is about life fulfillment from a distractingly equalist perspective; meaning an ostensibly equitable or better fulfillment than the Feminine Imperative would have women expect that men are getting from life. Women want to be men. Thus the push for female college enrollment that imbalances men’s enrollment, etc., but in so doing the life course women are directed to by the imperative also limits their Hypergamous optimization efforts by putting unrealistic expectations upon it.

As a result women either delay childbearing until ages that put them and any offspring at a health risk, or they simply forego marriage altogether and birth a child with the foreknowledge that the father (though maybe an adequate provisioner) will never be a contender to quell her doubts of his Hypergamous suitability.

If Momma Aint Happy, Aint Nobody Happy

I’m fleshing out this aspect of Hypergamy here because I believe, as with all thing female, that a broad understanding of Hypergamy is essential to a man’s life and has far reaching effects that go beyond just learning Game well enough to get the lay on a Saturday night when a woman is in her ovulatory peak phase.

A byproduct of the societal embrace of Open Hypergamy is the degree to which women are largely disposed to delaying commitment until what I call their Epiphany Phase and then transitioning into a need for security once their capacity to attract and arouse men decays and/or is compromised by intrasexual competition (a.k.a. The Wall). I detail this child-birth postponement process in Preventive Medicine where I outline women’s Party Years through their Epiphany Phase, however it’s important for men to understand that this phase is largely the result of women believing they should have a similar window as a man in which they can have both a career and find the “right guy” to partner in parenting with.

Equalism’s fundamental flaw is rooted in the belief that men and women are both rational and functional equals, separated only by social influence and selfish imperatives (uniquely attributed to men). The grave consequences women accept in this belief is that their sexual market value declines with age, both in terms of intrasexual competition and fertility.

As such, we entertain the bemoaning of generations of women frustrated that they were unable to consolidate on a Hypergamous ideal because they believed they had ample time to do so while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect of their Hypergamy in the years of their prime fertility window.

Furthermore, they believe that the men who are available and ready to fulfill the Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy simply don’t measure up to their socialized, overinflated, sense of Hypergamous entitlement (and particularly in comparison to the men who made them Alpha Widows in their Party Years).

So distressing is this prospect, and so keenly aware of it are women that they are beginning to mandate failsafe measures in anticipation of not being able to optimize Hypergamy – such as preemptive egg freezing and legislating that men pay for their infertility while married in alimony settlements.

It’s come to the point where the ages of 29-31 are no longer being considered a crisis point for women with regard to child bearing. With the cultural popularization of the false hope in frozen ovum extending a woman’s birthing timeframe, now, even 35-38 years old seems to magically grant women some bonus years in which to secure a man for parental investment. The question is no longer one of a woman making herself suitable for a man’s parental investment (by his late 30’s no less) – her default suitability is inherent in her femaleness according to the Feminine Imperative – but rather, she believes, a magical-thinking proposition of waiting out the Hypergamously right father for her children.

Parental Precautions

I’m stressing these points here before I move on to Red Pill parenting ideology so men who are, or want to become fathers, husbands, LTR boyfriends, understand the import that Hypergamy plays in any family arrangement they hope to create.

Just to head off all the MGTOWs reading first; don’t get married. Under contemporary western circumstances there is no advantage for men in a state of marriage and 100% advantage for women. Unfortunately, as things are structured, marriage will always be a cost-to-benefit losing proposition while women insist on making marriage a legalistic contract of male-only liabilities.

That said, also remember that an entire world steeped in feminine-primary social imperatives is arrayed against your efforts in being a positively masculine father to your kids. Those anti-father efforts start with women’s own fem-centric conditioning that leads them to both manically push for Hypergamous optimization personally and societally, but yet they will delay that optimization until all opportunities for her have been exhausted. If you are considering marriage and starting a family with a woman between the ages of 27 and 31, statistically this is the situation and mentality that woman is likely experiencing.

I’m presenting these things to you as a father or potential father, because it’s important for you to discern what women have been conditioned to believe and expect from men and for themselves. In the coming weeks I will post an essay on the complementarity both sexes have evolved for to make our species what it is today; and that conventional complementarity is something idealistic equalism would distort. However, for now it’s important to realize that women have been thrust into this zero-hour, jump-at-the-last-second, cash out of the sexual marketplace schedule of mating that their very biology rebels against.

Single Moms and “Good” Fathers

It’s also important for men to understand that, while there is a constant ‘Man Up’ beratement of fathers for their lack of willing involvement in a child’s life, men are simultaneously presented with the female ’empowerment’ meme. That meme proposes these fathers’ parental involvement is effectively superfluous to that child’s maturation because Strong Independent Women® can reportedly fulfill a fathers’ role equally as well as any man (the equalist narrative).

For all the public awareness campaigns extolling fathers to be fathers, the message is always one of being “better” fathers and placing them into a default position of being less than ‘good’ by virtue of their maleness. In fact a ‘good’ father is a rarely appreciated commodity because that ‘good’ quality is always tied to a man’s never ending and ever shifting burden of performance.

On the other side, the single mother empowerment meme is endemic. However it’s important to use our Red Pill Lens with this meme because the message is one that forgives women of their inability to make themselves appropriate prospects for men’s parental investment. At the same time this meme also foist the blame for men’s unwillingness to parentally invest squarely on men’s presumed responsibility to women optimizing their Hypergamy to their satisfaction:

I’m Stupid Picky.

In my 15 or so years of dating, I’ve been around. I don’t mean that to sound skanky, but … it’s not like I haven’t given love a chance. The problem? Out of all the men I’ve ever dated, there has only been one or two that I felt a genuine connection with. It is a rare thing indeed for me to meet someone I feel like I could picture spending forever with. Sadly, I can’t even remember the last time I met a man who gave me butterflies. It’s definitely been years.

I Want the Fairytale.

There are very few relationships I’ve witnessed in my life that I would actually want for myself. Which begs the question, what do I want? Well, I want a man who is great with kids and totally open to adopting a houseful with me. I want a man who is smart and driven, sexy and hilarious. One who gets me, and who challenges me, and who makes me weak in the knees. Basically … I want everything. And I’m not sure the image I have in my head of what love should be is something that actually exists in real life.

My Daughter Will Always Be Priority Number One.

If you think my expectations of what I want for me are implausible, we probably shouldn’t even discuss my expectations of what I want for the man who steps into that paternal role for my daughter. Truthfully, as much as I want that father figure for her, I am also absolutely terrified of choosing wrong, of messing up our dynamic by choosing a man who isn’t worthy of being her father.

This article’s entire checklist reads like a manifesto for the Strong Independent® single mother with no consideration given to how men, potential fathers or husbands might interpret it. As expected, Campbell perpetuates the ‘put your kid first’ religion of motherhood here, but after reading through her single-mom rationalizations, and then combined with men’s presumptive servitude to the beneficiaries of the Feminine Imperative, it’s easy to see why most, if not all men, might be hesitant to sign up for their expected duty.


My point here isn’t to dissuade men from wanting to be fathers, but rather that they enter into being a parent with their eyes open to how Hypergamy, and a cultural imperative that’s built around it, influences women’s life choices today. I mentioned earlier in this essay about women between the ages of 27 and 31 experiencing the first harsh realities of the consequences their choices have predisposed them to. Understand, as a man, your desire, your potential, for parental investment puts you into a position of being very sexually selective. So much in fact that the Feminine Imperative has long-held social conventions to pre-established with the purpose of convincing men they are not only obligated to fulfilling women’s Hypergamous strategy, but should feel lucky to do so.

The truth is that it is women who are at their most necessitous of men during this phase of their lives – thus placing men with the means and desire to become a parent into a prime selector’s position. Feminine social conditioning has done all it can to predispose Beta men to wait out and forgive women their short-term Alpha Fucks indiscretions during their Party Years, but as Red Pill awareness becomes unignorable the pressures of maintaining the image of being the prime selector will wear on women.

That said, I’ve had many men ask me how best to go about becoming a Red Pill parent. I’ve had many men express that the only advantage to marriage is in creating a healthy, hopefully complementary, environment in which to raise children. However, I’m not sure even women would concur with this assessment in the face of a social narrative that tells them they can raise a child as well as any father can. Yet, by the definition of the Feminine Imperative, a ‘good’ father is one who will sublimate his masculinity and assume a feminine, subservient gender role, thus making his superfluous whether he’s available or not.

In the last essay I emphasized establishing a strong, dominant, yet positive masculine Frame. This is the vital starting point for any long term relationship a man might hope to raise children in. The next imperative a man must confront is the Herculean obstacles he faces in a western culture that devalues him as a father, but obligates him to be an involved ‘good’ father who can only ever qualify himself to the mother of his children (who should place them above his interests) and qualify himself to a society that’s been conditioned to hold him to her standards.

Finally, a potential father needs to understand the circumstance in which women’s never ending quest to satisfy their Hypergamous doubt places them in at various phases of their maturity. For Red Pill men, a lot gets made of ‘vetting’ women for personal attributes and character to make them contenders for being the mother of their children. While this is important, I can’t stress enough how important it is to account for the Hypergamous choices women make prior to his consideration, as well as the consequences she should be held accountable for, yet attempts to avoid by his obligated graces.

In Part II I will expand on what to expect when raising sons and daughters from a Red Pill perspective.


Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

261 comments on “Red Pill Parenting – Part I

  1. Trp and posts like these could not have happened at a more critical stage in my life. This is essential to long term strategy.

  2. Maybe you are going to cover this in the following parts, but I have a question that I posted elsewhere.

    How does the Red Pill lens explain marriages where the husband wants kids but the wife doesn’t, even though the wife is around 35 or more (I think this isn’t so uncommon)?

    It could be because the wife is just postponing, as detailed in this part (particularly if she is still uner 35). Beyond that I could think of 3 possible reasons:
    1. wife is worried about hereditary genetic issues. If this is the case, it makes me assume the guy is a Beta Bucks and the wife for some reason doesn’t want to outsource the Alpha genes.
    2. the wife being worried the guy won’t be around to help with the raising of the kid (this could even be the case with an Alpha guy), maybe even because of a risky job – i.e. the guy is insufficiently Beta Bucks.
    3. self-esteem issue (fear of childbirth, fear of not being a good enough mother, would come here).

  3. I’m interested in what you have to say about lower income families where the government plays most of the role of father/provider/Alpha AND Beta.

  4. “I want a man who is great with kids and totally open to adopting a houseful with me. I want a man who is smart and driven, sexy and hilarious.”
    “Adopting”? Some mistake surely?
    Any man rating that highly in her estimation would almost by definition require those kids to be his & her own, or if he was sterile for some reason, at least her own.

    I’ve got some dismal news for her. Kids are more often than not a monumental pain in the ass, on a day-to-day basis.

    Not for their own sweet selves, but just for all the doing and getting they involve. Over the piece they’re the greatest, but …
    .. if my kids weren’t mine, and an awful lot like me, I reckon they wouldn’t have made it past their third christmas, under my care. (Couldn’t have stuck it, it would have been hit the road Jack, for me. Or murder.)
    “Why you little .. !!” (/homer simpson)

  5. At the risk of oversimplification, I don’t believe women want to be men at all.

    Hypergamy , like any other biological process, has winners and losers. For every woman who “has it all” -and make no mistake men, these women do exist- there more who are destined to try and fail. Sophilism ensures every female wishes to be the star of her own life show, and the FI provides the script:bang hot guys until your looks sour, then lock down $$$ and live like the queen of a sultan.

    Every woman I’ve met, from big cities to rural podunkvilles, has this ideal on her mind to an extent. She’s also frustrated constantly because of it- the podunk girls know full and well they’re marrying the local IHOP manager if they’re lucky, or living on welfare in a trailer if theyre not. The city girls are frustrated over the cutthroat competition for hot/wealthy guys.

    Contentment for a woman means being told to be happy with what she has.No one in modern FI run society is going to do that ; not when every voice and authority between Washington DC and the Santa Monica Pier says she not only can have it all, but is entitled to it by birthright. The mirror image would be a society which says every man deserves a harem of twenty SMV 10 women. It’s just not gonna work out that way for everyone or even most people.

    Faced with losing (no big wealthy Beta bux) or losing big (no big wealthy Beta bux and no kids) women pick Option two and spend the rest of their days living through their kids and being pissed she’s not shopping on Rodeo Drive every day .

  6. I am wondering what you think house-husbands should do. For me it is largely a moot point, since of my two kids one is off to college and the other is in high school, which is to say I am done. (And my children have both “come out” (so far) very well: top of the class and all that, whether that is nature or nurture.) But the whole matter raises interesting questions, such as what it means when the “primary care-giver” is also the disciplinarian, which fathers tend to be regardless, etc..

  7. Outstanding post, Rollo.

    A few points, from an OMG perspective. Firstly, in the process of vetting it is vitally important for the RP man to establish as part of his frame that this is as much the union of two families, as it is two people. Further, this union is YOUR responsibility, and you guard it jealously. By establishing that frame to the in-laws on both sides even before a commitment is offered, honoring the previous generations while refusing to be ruled by them, you avoid a LOT of drama. It means some tense times with your in-laws at the time, but it also allows you to keep the amount of filial pressure lower later on. Don’t be RP to your fiance/wife and then go all BP in front of Mom. Bad form.

    While I’m far from a #nohymendodiamond dude, understanding your future wife’s past is essential before a commitment is offered. And that commitment becomes conditional on her being truthful to you. If she’s a secret Alpha Widow, you need to know before you put a ring on it. If she conveniently forgot to mention being serially spitroasted at a concert by four hot dudes she met, then revelation of that later needs to be understood as a violation of the commitment. Vetting is, as you say, very important.

    But so is hypergamy. And in appreciation of that, I encourage ANY man considering matrimony to also consider the potential of hypergamous behavior on the part of his wife. That is, if in doubt, next her out. There is too much of a wealth of women desperate for a ring in this world to waste time on a proposition that promises to lose on the surface. Either being your wife (not a bride) is the most important thing in the world to her, or its not. Your sperm is viable until you are 70. You have far more time to be choosy.

    And . . . you don’t have to be “reasonable”. That is, you don’t have to accept “everybody does that!” when you learn about summer camp hook-ups, beach orgies, and Spring Break trips that ended in medical treatment. Having high standards for the mother of your children is one thing that makes you RP. Not bowing to social pressure to “give the girl a chance” and moving on, despite what your mother says about grandchildren, is vital. Your commitment is your metaphorical virginity. You must value it and prize it above all else, and extend it only to one who has proven herself worthy.

    And finally, communicating your sexual expectations to your future wife and securing her agreement in principal may not totally insulate yourself against her hypergamy, but it’s worth a shot.

    Marriage is a deadly gamble, even under the best of circumstances. Rollo is correct, the only reason it should be considered is in the furtherance of your reproductive goals. As it is also the thing a woman prizes, after tingles and social status, you should have a real appreciation of its value, and demand full price.

    If you don’t want to get married, fine – but try to support those RP men who do. Yes, we all understand why MGTOW makes sense. But for many of us who have pursued that course we consider it as valid a direction as yours.

    Great post, again, Rollo. Really looking forward to your next ones.

  8. @IAS

    In your heredity part you brought up the man being a Beta Bucks. I think those are 2 different things that should be separated.

    I know a couple in both situations. One dude is Alpha, but family has a lot of retards and heart disease. They are IVF and doing genetic screening for diseases. She doesn’t want it to be a “natural” insemination because they can screen for a lot of diseases now. They got 4 eggs fertilized, and 3 were diseased. They are implanting the healthy one.

    The other one is a woman married to a Beta. She got him, and I quote,”I want to get out of the market.” I overheard her tell my woman at a company bar-bq. I was thinking,”Wow. The woman flat out admitted it!” He wants a child & she doesn’t. If she was attracted to him, just like the example I mentioned with the first couple, then she would jump thriough hoops to reproduce him.
    The Beta dude is screwed and it’s sad watching them interact. She dominates him and tells him how lucky he is to have her. She’s such a bitch to him, but he’s earned it by his behavior.

    One might be Beta via genetics, but his behavior is very Alpha. He can’t help it that his family has those bad birth defects. He’s the Rottweiler in a family of poodles. The other is Beta by behavior so he’s a big turn off on the reproductive end.

    1. Regarding the bitch-dominated Beta–contrast with proper Alpha behavior. He tells the woman, “Not tonight, Peg.” The woman has children on the alpha’s timetable, not on hers. All of the alpha’s plates do this.

  9. Fantastic article. The acuity of your logic is an inspiration. I’m very thankful that you are on, “our side.” Either way though, the truth stands alone and I thank you for it.

  10. It seems to me that there should be an emphasis on having children in RP doctrine. Without higher rates of reproduction than the competition, we die out.

    1. @Yhufir, I’m not sure parenting should be a Red Pill “doctrine”, but certainly mentorship and exemplifying Red Pill awareness would be one. Issues of reproduction aside, being an example and directing the next generation is vital.

  11. I love your work Rollo, I really do. But I have to ask. Only having a single child, and a daughter of that. With a woman close to your same age. Your wife was nearing the ehiphany phase, when you met, was she not? And i believe you at 28 were having the phsycological need to start a family kick in. Did you get played by your wife?

    Also, much more important. Do you think, women should be allowed to vote?

    1. @Anders, “played”? No, because she knew what she needed in a man. Mrs. T’s father set a very strong Alpha impression for her so, I was expected to drive the car from our first date.

      That said, yes, she was most definitely in her Epiphany Phase and certainly subject to everything I’ve delved into about it.

      Did I realize it then? Not at all, but I was fortunate enough to find a woman who had an appreciation for conventional masculinity, even at a time when I had a very rudimentary understanding of it. I should also point out that we’d been married for 2 years before we agreed it was time to get her pregnant, so there was no subterfuge of getting pregnant to lock me down.

  12. If we consider a woman’s primary value is child-bearing, then her reproductive market value pro-ratedly declines every nine months until she can no longer bear healthy children.

  13. @Rollo

    Thanks for the response.
    However, I didn’t say “parenting” lol.
    I’m not necessarily gonna outright support the idea of dropping buns in the oven and leaving. That might actually end up providing cannon fodder for the next generation of women. But, still, any culture that promotes having less children is a culture that fails.

  14. Another great one, Rollo. How ironic it arrived in my inbox as I walked in the door holding my pouch of mail with the Preventive Medicine book inside. Kudos.

  15. “I can’t stress enough how important it is to account for the Hypergamous choices women make prior to his consideration, as well as the consequences she should be held accountable for, yet attempts to avoid by his obligated graces.”

    Great point. Every man needs to find the truth of what exactly his potential fiancee was doing during her early twenties. If she was riding the CC, then she needs to be held accountable for her choices. In other words, you need to next her like no tomorrow. She won’t be faithful, and she will end up divorcing you sooner rather then later. That’s the only way to stop this madness of female empowerment to sleep with 50+ men without ANY consequences. She’ll become a spinster, and then slowly start to warn her younger sisters to consider the consequences that their actions have made. Take commitment off the table, and stop this crazy train, one man at a time. This is one step to return the next generation back to normalcy. Your future (maybe) children and grandchildren need it.

  16. “But, still, any culture that promotes having less children is a culture that fails.”

    And yet the obverse is not true. Any culture that promotes having more children is not necessarily going to “win”. Depends on the content of that culture’s character. The red pill culture can only do so much without compromising itself.


    And that is why a bottoms up approach is needed by a red pill man. Not a top down approach to saving society. I know I’m changing the subject of your point Yhufir, but just wanted to make that point.

  17. In that article you used as a reference. She is talking about no drinking anymore.

    The last line “And honestly, I just have very little interest in parenting my toddler while hungover these days.”

    Not that it is a bad idea to get drunk as a single parent. Not that endangering herself by getting wasted is bad. Not that she is worried about being a bad hing over parent…. She does not want to deal with being hung over.

    What a patch. Oh the hamster wheel on this one is spinning but the hamster is off to the side napping and the wheel is magically spinning of its own accord.

    What does she bring to a relationship? Train wreck comes to mind. It is never her fault for not having a man. It is her prerogative because all men are bad. Have you done an article about the narcissism of these women? I am new to the site and a little lazy.

  18. With the cultural popularization of the false hope in frozen ovum extending a woman’s birthing timeframe, now, even 35-38 years old seems to magically grant women some bonus years in which to secure a man for parental investment.

    There’s one thing I instinctively grasped, even in my Beta days: If I can’t have your prime years, you can’t have mine.

    If we consider a woman’s primary value is child-bearing, then her reproductive market value pro-ratedly declines every nine months until she can no longer bear healthy children.

    If I can’t have your prime years, you can’t have mine.

    Your sperm is viable until you are 70. You have far more time to be choosy.

    If I can’t have your prime years, you damn sure can’t have mine.

    It’s exactly what I’m telling myself every time I run in to a single mom, a chick past her best years, or a chick who’s just whored herself out so hard she’ll always be about a dude that came before me no matter what I do. She’s just a fuck ‘n’ chuck if I’m not getting her prime. Period. No exceptions.

  19. @The Mad A-rab

    To be fair, I’d say anyone swallowing the Red Pill, male or female, really thinks hard about what they bring to the relationship. Granted, it’s more pronounced among women in some ways, but take a look at a Blue Pill Beta spouting JBY as his advice and try not to hear the same lack of concern about what he’s bringing to the table.

    It’s tantamount to telling a man to do exactly what that hamster is doing: make it about what you want, not about what you need to do to make that person want you.

  20. Rollo, I was wondering – what are your thoughts on what a RP man’s mental point of origin should be once he’s had kids?

    Obviously many guys who have kids are stuck in BP mode, thinking with their wife as their mental point of origin, at least until they get divorced and wind up with only the kid.

    But would it be correct to move your mental point of origin towards your kids?

    My first impression is that no, it wouldn’t be, because it will set a bad example and ultimately be worse for the kids than if you’d been a good role model. Which is, of course, completely not what the normal societal rules tell us – which is that your kids are supposed to become the most important thing in both parents lives, immediately.

    I totally get that kids should be important to you, but I guess what I’m saying is, they should be important to you like your wife is important to you. You’d miss them if they weren’t in your life anymore, but they should be a complement to your life, not your reason for being.

  21. Thanks very much for the comments last night fellas – very helpful ! sorry I didn’t reply

  22. The little girls expression in the top pic is pretty hilarious & adorable.What a “wonderful” mom that is setting such a great example for her young daughter by demonstrating the perfect pose for a slutty selfie. Single moms / hypergamy / feminism knows best,…..ya BULLSHIT!

  23. “Any culture that promotes having more children is not necessarily going to “win”. Depends on the content of that culture’s character. “

    Agreed SJF, this “demographics is destiny” stuff really grips my shite.
    Strikes me as demoralizing propaganda promulgated by hopelessly peasanty places (Chindia) trying to overawe more competent societies by sheer bulk, Xerxes-fashion. Making the best of a bad job.

    Top ten

    Niger 7.6
    Mali 6.8
    Somalia 6.6
    Chad 6.3
    Nigeria 6.0
    Burundi 6.0
    Angola 5.9
    Uganda 5.9
    DR Congo 5.9
    Gambia 3.8

    Wooden spoon

    S Korea 1.2
    Bosnia/Hungary/Poland/Portugal/Slovakia/Spain 1.3
    Germany/Austria/Italy/Japan/Cuba/Latvia/Thailand/Macedonia 1.4
    Bulgaria/Ukraine/Switzerland/Serbia/Moldova/Croatia/Czech R 1.5
    Canada 1.6
    Netherlands 1.7
    (includes A8 states and fucked-up ex-Soviet satellites where anyone of childbearing age has, like the youth of the PIIGS, decamped for the core EU. Most of them are in England, I suspect. They’re gonna hafta put another floor in on the Island soon. Or dig out the basement. It’s beyond ridiculous now).

    bored now ..

    of tiny city-states and ‘tax-efficient’ islands

    [Macao 1.1]
    [Singapore 1.3]
    [Hongkong 1.3]
    [Mauritius 1.4]
    [Malta 1.4]
    [Montenegro 1.7]
    [Liechtenstein 1.5]
    [Cyprus 1.5]
    [Bermuda 1.6]

    OK there’s the runners and riders, who’ll take 14-1 on say, Chad outperforming/conquering .. er, Czecho, and indeed Slovakia?
    Burundi to take on Switzerland?

  24. While I’m far from a #nohymendodiamond dude, understanding your future wife’s past is essential before a commitment is offered. If she’s a secret Alpha Widow, you need to know before you put a ring on it.


    I don’t really disagree with your thought here, but in all practicality how are you ever going to understand your future wife’s past? I would say assume the worst. Especially if she’s hot. Why do you even want to know? Honestly I’d rather not think about it. My goal would be to replace that Alpha in the back of her head with yourself.

  25. If you find a woman who is in love with her femininity and in love with masculinity, you won’t have an issue.

    I’m a suburban stay at home mother who spends a lot of time with other stay at home moms. The women who “put their kids first”, let themselves go, and belittle their husbands should have been easily identifiable as such (by their controlling tendencies, loud opinionated personalities, daily ponytail tendencies) long before they got pregnant.

    On the other hand, it’s very common for feminine girls to get excited fantasizing about their boyfriends/fiances/new husbands becoming strong masculine fathers someday.

  26. “I’m a suburban stay at home mother who spends a lot of time with other stay at home moms.”

    Well somebody must be leaving their homes a lot then.

  27. @Andy Yes, you do want to know. If she isn’t willing to be forthcoming about her past, then she won’t be forthcoming in the future. You don’t have to dump her if you don’t like the answer, but you should really know what you are up against.

  28. Rollo, it might just be me but I think your blog would be a lot better with a bigger font. I find it hard sometimes to keep my focus on the content by having to put most of that focus on trying to read such a small font size. It doesn’t help that this particular typeface is also fairly packed together with the spacing between letters and lines. I enjoy your valuable content, but not so much the experience of having to read it, specially since you pack in a lot of information in one blog post. Just my 2 cents.

  29. Yes, you do want to know. If she isn’t willing to be forthcoming about her past, then she won’t be forthcoming in the future.

    I disagree. It’s one thing if you’re asking from a completely non-judgmental place just to talk about sex. If you’re asking from a worried, judgmental place it’s a complete DLV act. She’s going to feel like she’s being judged and basically you’re sending the message that you are insecure about your ability to be the best sex she’s ever had. Honestly, it shouldn’t be an issue because if you’re on your game you ARE the best sex she’s ever had in the first place. She’ll open up about her past from a place of complete hypergamous security knowing that you won’t judge because you are the best fuck.

  30. @toseeandtohear

    Rollo, I was wondering – what are your thoughts on what a RP man’s mental point of origin should be once he’s had kids?

    I’ll take a swing at that. The answer is simple.

    Hardcore, unapologetic Patriarchy.

    When a man makes the investment in a wife and a family, the temptation to slide back into BP thinking is alluring. But that’s the decidedly wrong MPO. Once a commitment has been made and forged, and the period of readjustment begins, your MPO MUST remain that of the Captain of your boat. The fact that you are now officially and legally responsible for another person is scary, hence the temptation to go BP. But establishing a clear frame of “I am the one responsible, I am the one in charge” is of supreme importance.

    Then comes RP Man with a baby carriage. Early fatherhood is a particular challenge to RP men, and the temptation here is to cede all childcare decisions and responsibilities to your wife, because that just seems easier. However, in this modern age I think it is equally important to establish a close bond with your children at an early age and invest in your parenting as deeply as your wife. Apart from lactation, there isn’t anything she can do for the baby that you can’t.

    While that might seem an indulgence in an overly feminine area, i see it as a necessary adaptation to the times and culture that ultimately adds to your masculine power. Why? Because by deferring to our wives in early childhood, we undermine our credibility and authority in their minds when we try to assert ourselves later on.

    That might seem a subtle point, but by jealously guarding your paternal prerogative to intensely parent early on, you keep your wife from becoming the authority on parenting in general. There isn’t a right way and a wrong way, then, there’s Daddy’s Way and Mommy’s Way. Also be understanding of the differences between mothering, fathering, and parenting.

    When we take the BP “Mommy Knows Best” approach, we end up alienated from our kids and powerless if she chooses to use them as leverage in the relationship. If we adopt a strong, unapologetically patriarchal approach from the beginning, we resist the culturally-derived ideals of the Tender Years doctrine and feminine primacy as part of our family culture.

    There’s more discussion of this over at the OMG forum on reddit, r/marriedredpill. It’s called RP Hard Mode for a reason. But that’s where the guys hang out who look at this stuff.

    1. Rollo, I was wondering – what are your thoughts on what a RP man’s mental point of origin should be once he’s had kids?

      Coming in the next post. I’m trying to pace these, there’s a lot to consider.

  31. @Andy, I appreciate where you are coming from, but you are making a Single RP man’s mistake in approaching marriage.

    This isn’t just your permanent girlfriend you are dealing with here, this is the future mother of your children. The woman who will have the legal power in most places to pull the plug on your life support. This woman will share your name, credit rating, and social status. Statistically speaking, she will be more likely to murder you than anyone else.

    It’s not about DLV at this point – you should have clearly met all those challenges if you are considering a commitment. You need to look past impressing her pussy and take a rock-hard look at her soul. Any less, and you don’t give fair value to your own commitment. And if she’s squeamish about disclosure, you can bet that there are other issues with her character.

    It’s not an easy thing to bring up, but you owe it to your future kids to determine how much of a flight risk their mom is.

  32. You need to look past impressing her pussy and take a rock-hard look at her soul.

    Dude, snow white is not going to turn down an Alpha fuck just because she’s snow white. IMO snow white being fucked into oblivion by some dude doesn’t make her less of a snow white. In fact if she is snow white in all likely hood she’s attracting the best of the best anyway. Like I said… If she has some experience and you’re on your game and regularly turning her into a puddle of mush she’s going to realize how valuable you are and that frame is yours to exploit.

  33. Easy Andy. I’m not sure you are aware who you are speaking to. Ian has considerable credibility and congruence in red pill praxeology.

  34. @SJF

    I could care less who I’m talking to. IMO if you’re looking to disqualify a woman based on her sexual history you’re doing yourself a disservice because you better believe that the high quality chicks have been fucked in every way imaginable. If not you it’s somebody else… Might as well be you!

  35. Don’t sweat it. You still have an idealistic view of marriage. That will change.

    There Is No Snow White. Even marrying a virgin doesn’t protect you. The goal isn’t to find one, but to have a realistic understanding of the challenges you are signing up for and making an decision about your commitment as fully-informed as possible.

  36. @Andy,

    I think you have a point, but I think it is a new situation that has not yet been completely digested by the redpill community. I think even 5 years ago it was still possible to screen women by their sexual history. These days though… I can’t think of a single 20 something girl that doesn’t have a sexual history as long as the tats on her arm.

    The old redpill screening rules are likely to turn up zero hits with today’s crop. Perhaps that’s just the way it is. It kind of defaults you to MGTOW if you can’t find a single high quality girl without a track record.

  37. Kids are not easy, but like anything else,what you put in is what you get back. My kids respect and love me, I was very hard on them and never budged on the important issues. My wife always deferred to me on this and the kids never “ran to mommy”. $ very expensive, we sent our kids to private HS and Colleges, but it paid off, they both are independent and living on their own. I am an outdoor guy but never pushed the kids into my hobbies. In college my daughter took a scuba diving class on her own, got her divers certification and asked if her and I could take a “spring break” together. Nothing like diving off the coast of the Cayman’s with your daughter 100 feet down..

  38. I think it is possible to put your kids first in a patriarchy. The disconnect is today, that seems to mean yielding to the wants of your children as apposed to telling them what they need.

    They are children. They have no idea what is good for them. Enforcing patriarchal rules is putting them first.

  39. There Is No Snow White. Even marrying a virgin doesn’t protect you.

    I totally agree. I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman. If you’re getting married to a high quality chick you’re going to have to be on your game constantly anyway.

  40. Co-sign everything Ian says. Think I echoed his speech over on the Red Pill Parent thread.

    Intense fatherly involvement: hell to the yeah. You are there to provide your presence, and to provide comfort and relief. Relief from pain and discomfort in particular. So that includes changing the diapers and giving baths, providing vigilance and comfort during illness. First aid responders do that. Boy scouts do that. Men do that. You can do that. Your kid wants you to do that. Everybody forgets that last factoid. They’re all caught up in what other men or women or pundits think, none of whom are the Boss of You.

    Don’t let any matriarch or “helpful” mommy-type neighbor tell you otherwise: “oh you men! You’ll just mess that up. We’ll do it right.” You may literally have to bat them away. As 1000+ parenting books will tell you, Some wives will battle you over being hands-on, and many husbands just give up the argument: OK you’re right I’m no good at this, I don’t have to do shit. Then she’s mad at you for not doing shit, even though she told you not to do shit. Hilarity ensues.

  41. Heheh, Andy. I’m chuckling to myself. Just yesterday we were green-lighting you to be irrationally self-confident.

    So you got that memo.

    Us old guys cringe, though, when you think a partner in inter-sexual relationships behaves like a mechanical clock and is always reliable in a linear fashion. You can be on top of your game and you still have to be aware of her potential variability. Invincibility to a man is wonderful. Until it’s not.

  42. Some very good stuff here.

    Young men need to realize that it’s all connected. I advise all young men, today, against getting married. There is too much too lose (for the man). Until things change in our society and our laws then I would say no to marriage. Unfortunately, that lives little room for being a dad and wanting kids. Feminists and SJWs have done a good at job at getting what they wanted…and now the results (they’ll find) are not really what they wanted after all. It’s going to take some time for all of this to get sorted out.

    But for the time being, it’s not in a man’s best interest to get married.

  43. I’ve been irrationally self confident for a large chunk of my life. Probably because I’m really really really ridiculously good looking. And I’m smart.

    If you’re worried about a girl leaving you when life hits you in the face you’re probably better off marrying a 7 or 8. But I don’t see how sexual history is going to matter much.

  44. I think it is possible to put your kids first in a patriarchy.

    In the modern world, “putting kids first” creates a de facto matriarchy, except in cases where the man has sole custody. A man who is essentially a widower – say, for example, the mother is in prison – can put his child(ren) first, before himself. Those are the exceptions. In any LTR, married or not, “putting kids first” gives a huge veto to Mom, and creates a donut-hole marriage where “the kids” are the focus, the main topic of conversation, the determiners of where holidays are taken, etc.

    It’s no secret that a lot of divorces are filed after the youngest child is out of the house, and “putting kids first” is a big part of the reason.

    As to patriarchy…

    In ancient Rome the paterfamilias had the legal authority to kill anyone in his family for certain causes. Think about that for a while.

    In a patriarchy, what comes first is “the name”. The family reputation. “Death before dishonor” can have a real meaning, in such a culture. We really can’t understand that kind of society, not in our matrifocal and increasingly matriarchal world.

  45. Well, it is my first time posting here, but I have been reading for at least one year, and I want to thank Rollo for his essays.

    I used to live in the States, but I recently left. I was once married and saw that I had stopped living and going after my dreams , so the frustration started to open my eyes. I kept a journal and seek more information about male-female commerce. I separated from my wife. She went back to her country and I went back to my country.

    One book which I found important and read prior to Rollo’s excellent essays is: The Anatomy of Female Power.

    And I hope Rollo will one day day add to the reading list. Well, the book was banned at one point.

    Now, regarding the state of male/female warfare in the United States, it is a battle most males can’t win. It became clear to me that the best thing was to leave the entire country because it is the structure that determines behaviors.

    Most American and Americanized women are very aware of the tremendous legal and social powers they have over men in the States. It is not a matter of “If”. It is a matter of “when”.

    I’ve seen submissive Haitian women turn into fire-breathing dragons once they set foot in the States. Why? Because they know that no matter what the man will lose. It is a game where you, as a man, can be financially, psychologically wiped out at any moment.

    If you’re going to drink from a poisoned well, then you are not careful. There is no screening for American women/gladiators whom the law wants to win no matter what.

    I found America to be a great place to see the mechanisms of male-female commerce because the women are so brazen about their game. Now, after learning the true nature of the game in the States, it becomes easier to navigate the battlefield in countries such as Brazil, the Dominican Republic, or Haiti.

    I also think most American guys don’t travel outside of the States enough, to sample and compare. There is more to the world than the United States. You got to go out. Go to Europe if you prefer European-looking women. Go to South American if we want mixed women. Go to Asia. Go to Africa or Haiti or Jamaica and see the world. Go outside and feel what is like to be sought-after.

    Even if you start out as a “beta bucks” foreigner, in those countries, when you see the amount of girls that want to be with you, when the local guys start telling you about the deal in their country, you will learn to say no to women, you will stop being a doormat because you got options and the girls know you are the prize.

    The thing is: the American woman wants your bucks and gives nothing in return, the second and third-world country women need your bucks and will have competition anxiety because in those countries a 30-year old woman is clearly past her prime , there is no IVF and an army of 18 year old girls who want a better life and some have been trained to obey the man. So the second and third-world country women will have to perform better in order to keep you from the hands of other hungry women.

    There is a big difference between Chateau Heartiste talking about tapping a tight 18-year old poon and when you actually go to a country where 18-year old girls throw themselves at you and you know you have your pick.

    You have to stop drinking from the poisoned well, cross the desert of the unknown and experience pure, fresh water.

    There is no need to fight the American women and expect them to change. No, we, as men, have to act, go abroad, stay abroad as much as possible, so that when you return to the States, you know your true SMV in a more natural marketplace like Brazil.

  46. Andy – “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman. If you’re getting married to a high quality chick you’re going to have to be on your game constantly anyway”

    If she has a blemished past, she isnt high qualtiy.

    For instance: if she ever cheated in the past, she is likely to do it again. I would take that into serious consideration before any real commitment is made.

    If she is easily “led” into random sex, it won’t change because of a ring. You don’t want to be the “settle down guy” for a former hard core party girl. Certainly not if you want her to bear you children.

    This stuff isn’t just about Red Pill, its about character. While I agree past sexual escapades don’t matter much for a GF/plate, I would never commit to and have children with a woman that has TOO much prior baggage. Maybe there truly aren’t any left in the 20’s bracket without it. If so then my advice to my boys will be never under any circumstances get married. As it stands now my advice is don’t even think about it until they reach 30. I guess the alternative if you want kids is to get a baby mama or two. Sad state that is.

  47. Knowing red pill truths; awareness of female cynicism is a good thing. Knowing the principals of game is a good thing. But that knowledge does not automatically resolve personal insecurity and paranoia.

  48. Looking back at the fact that I have a 17 year old daughter, now divorced almost 10 years and have been and continue to be subjected to the FI and all the negative consequences as Rollo so explicitly explains, I can assuredly say that I would have not gotten married.

    Having my daughter was the only consolation.

    I am fortunate that choosing divorce has afforded me to reclaim my identity as a man and allowed me to reassert a masculine frame for mine an my daughters benefit.

    I intentionally chose visitation with limited cohabitation with my daughter to avoid the conventions and expectations of the ‘modern father’.

    This insight for me personally has greatly benefitted my lifestyle and how I relate to my daughter.

    At the time I honestly didn’t know the full extent of how good this idea actually was. Looking back now I know for sure. I consider myself lucky.

    Frame is paramount to masculinity.

    Full disclosure, My daughter is 5′-8 1/2″ tall, junior in high school, cheerleader for 2 years, varsity tennis 3 years and counting, studies hard, has a job, has a 6′-4″ boyfriend that plays on the football team, loves and listens to her father.

    Yes, I do give most credit to her mother for her development and maturation. I guess it would be remiss to fail to mention my divorce has also allowed me to better control how I relate to my ex. I truly believe that this would not be possible if I stayed married.

    I’m not entirely sure wether or not she is having sex. Not really sure to the extent of my influence. However, she and boyfriend, do know that I don’t think its a good idea and that under know uncertain terms the day she get’s pregnant is the day she looses the privilege of being a child.

    It’s is my intention to slowly advise her of RP truths now and over time throughout her young adulthood.

    Rollo you reveal your lofty perch once again!

    My advice to anyone considering being a parent, is to know the RP truths and take heed to this wise mans words.

  49. If she is easily “led” into random sex, it won’t change because of a ring.

    haha, what advantage exactly does a high quality woman gain in declining Alpha fucks? Do you really think that absence of previous sex is going to change her proclivity to cheat? She’s going to rationalize it away no matter what. There is literally nothing you can do to prevent cheating other than make sure you are optimizing her hypergamy. Even then… She could still cheat on you. It is what it is.

  50. No snark here, just an honest question.

    How can a man vet a modern woman for commitment?

    I ask because in my previous line of work, it was a government job which required a throurough security clearance. You’d think an official investigation into someone’s past would filter out the criminals and jerks. Sometimes it doesn’t and The Government gets it wrong. That’s an official , US Government background check.

    Atop the fact no individual man will have unlimited access to a woman’s background like that, we face another challenge. Women lie.

    I don’t just mean lie verbally; their very personalities can be altered to impress a man she likes. Case in point-in my Blue days I dated a girl who swore she liked cars, car shows, etc. I thought I struck gold .

    Then after we became an item: ” you work on that car ALL THE TIME “..” You spend too much money on parts”….I was totally confused. Who was this selfish harpie , and what did she do to my V8 loving girlfriend?

    I’m not the only one who’s seen the Post Commitment Personality Reversal. It feel like test driving and singing the binding loan paperwork for a BMW, only to see it morph into a Yugo as soon as you leave the lot.

    Then there’s the extensive sexual history of a modern woman. Unless she lives in a town so small there aren’t even stoplights, fugediboutit. Even then, Cancun’s – err,the “Mexican Religious Retreat” is only two connecting flights away.

    How does a man avoid getting “Yugo’d” into marrying a painted over cum slut?

  51. What Ironwood said, times many…

    I made that child birth slide into BP world when the first one came along and it was a mistake, I caught it pretty early and spoke up and said fuck this, I am a parent too, give me my kid. My wife was monopolizing the whole parenthood thing and it sucked.

    I’m glad I grabbed the wheel and took some control over the whole thing, I felt fine dealing with kids right from the minute it was handed to me in the operating room. It’s not hard. If cavemen and monkeys can do it, so can you!

    It makes me sick to see the number of guys around here who simply presume that the domus and chattel therein will be handed over to a wife upon marriage to control and direct. That’s bullshit of the highest order.

    Do you have balls? did you pay for at least half of the fucking house? then you should bloody well choose what the fucking colour of paint is going to be in any room but for a room specifically dedicated to her needs and activities. (I do believe that each member of a family should have one room unto themselves as their own domain) but that the entire house is the man’s domain and everyone else is there because of his grace and generosity. The minute you start thinking that “she gets to decide that colour and how it will be used” well, you’re proper fucked.

    The defeatist attitude around here is occasionally tiring, assuming that marriages can only be traps, can only be steered by the FI, fuck that. I veered way to far into BP world, thankfully one day I woke up and realized it, discovered RP and turned the bus around. A few years later I wouldn’t dream of entertaining these ideas like women know best and get the default decision making authority on all things child. No, from day one you simply say, this is how it’s going to be. You deal with your wife as you would a child, you give them the illusion of choice in big decisions. This validates their feelings, but by defining what those two choices are, you have of course already made the meaningful choices.

    As for vetting women. Why has nobody pointed out the obvious? The apple does not fall far from the tree. What is her familial history? Is there divorce prevalent on both sides of the equation amongst previous generations? Well if so obviously there is not a family culture of succeeding at marriage. I would not hire a company to build me a rocket if all they have done is crash a lot of rockets, I would want to see proof of successful marriage exploits in the wider family history. It would assure me that the in-laws are pulling for marriage as an institution and not just pulling for their daughter’s interests of the day.

    To that extent, shop for chicks who are simply put, daughter’s of patriarchy. If you know her father in particular is a strong leader of his household and not likely to suffer any bullshit well that is a very good start there. You befriend him as a man, you ensure that you are dealing with the right kind of man, you deal with each other knowing that you are formulating a merger of families and that the line extension to be developed known as children is a serious enterprise. You rely on that father to help temper some of their more flighty tendencies. Does the daughter just roll over the father and collude with the mother? Then she’s a poor choice for an RP wife.

    Kid’s first, no way man. wife first, haaa, never. Your family first? Yes for sure, and as the leader of the family you get to decide how to execute on that set of priorities. Is it a burden making all the hard choices? sure is. Does anyone thank you for taking the responsibility? Not likely.

    It’s not easy, it’s not entirely supported by our culture, but a man can easily lead a household under a traditional patriarchal model and succeed at it. stand up straight, take the wheel, and set the course. It’ll happen.

  52. @anonymous,

    We are talking apples and oranges. What you say is true from an external point. If it is observable that you are putting the kids first, then everything else follows as you say.

    I’m saying that internally, you can put the kids first, but the outside observer would never be able to tell. Today’s modern observer would see an old school tyrant who needs to get with the times.

  53. Andy – oh I agree, if a woman wants to cheat she will. But when it comes to marriage, always hedge your bets.

    Of course, we may have totally different ideas of what constitutes a quality woman here. For a wife, high SMV does not equal quality. In fact, I don’t place it in the top 5 needed traits. She only has to pass my boner test, and the hotter she is the more likely it is she will require a lot of gaming. Its one thing to test your skills on the open market, but when you put half the shit you’ll ever own on the line, pushing your skill set may not be the best course of action.

    Just my take obviously. But quality for me does not directly relate to HB status.

  54. Just my take obviously. But quality for me does not directly relate to HB status.

    Yeah, you and everybody else man. Do you think that Alpha’s don’t like the sweethearts? Everybody loves the sweethearts. It’s more fun to fuck the sweethearts. I wouldn’t be fooled into believing that the sweethearts cheat much less than the bitches though.

  55. It takes a village, yet fathers are unnecessary. I struggle w/the contradiction.

    Recently I’m experiencing women telling me shit such as “when are you gonna settle down, women in your demo (44) aren’t looking to play the field, oh you’ll find the one someday”, etc. I suppose I’ve become suitable “marriage stock” having been RP over a year now. It’s fascinating watching women’s facial contortions when I tell them “I’m enjoying the first adult sexual realationships of my life, and why should I marry when statistically I have a better than 50% chance of losing more than half my shit at a later date?”

    So last night I had this very conversation with 2 female coworkers and I witnessed with my own eyes & ears how women feal ENTITLED to all of the post-divorce financial goodies. It was if they were attempting to make me feal OBLIGATED to fulfill a woman’s hypergamy. I cringe at the thought of being in this crosshair pre RP. I remain ever grateful Rollo RM & CH.

  56. “The man with nothing to lose is the most dangerous man in the room.”

    I know that my wife could, through the power of law, destroy our marriage in a heart beat but she also has come to learn it would not mean that much to me. She knows that I view living alone, like a monk as a very viable if not favourable option. She knows I could walk on my family, my life, my investments and everything and simply go walkabout and I’d actually be pretty happy with that.

    This gives me great power because she also knows that if she chose to blow up our marriage it would not work well for her or the kids. “Sure, you want a divorce, OK, here ya go, don’t take half, take EVERYTHING, good luck with that”. She knows to divorce or have an affair would hurt the family, and that means hurting her and what I have trained her to be ego-invested in which is the family unit, as operated under patriarchy. So she does understand that to act in such away would be personally counter productive to her own aims and goals. (Yes I know a hamster can turn that around but that’s why a good husband is also a master hamster trainer with a whip in his hand).

    Likewise, simply create a social circle that puts a high premium on successful marriages (No I am not taking church either). My / our social circle is exactly that, extremely low divorce rate and actual effective social chastening of divorcee’s. I make it challenging for her to hang out with the one divorcee in our social circle and ensure that she sees the downside of that woman’s decisions.

  57. Andy -Do you think that Alpha’s don’t like the sweethearts?

    Of course! I hope you know I’m not preaching “find your unicorn” here. There are matters of degree. Just about any woman alive in the US has a history, but they dont all include a bouncy house and 4 guys on spring break.

    Look, for all that we talk basic biology here, women DO have personality and character differences. My point is: past sex is a given. But not all women were total carousel riders. Some take a ride and get off quickly, and others buy a season pass. The ones riding on a pass to me are a far bigger gamble if marriage is the goal.

  58. There is no such thing as a “quality woman” anymore than there is any such thing as a “soul mate”. Both are contrived fairy tale characters. There are only real people who are always more dynamic than anything we contrive for ourselves. And… is the hardest part for many to accept…like it or not every person has a mind of their own and the ability to make their own decisions. Those who cannot accept this fact risk self inflected disappointment and misery. Yes, unfortunately for me I write from experience, but fortunately those who comprehend can avoid the same.

  59. “how are you ever going to understand your future wife’s past?”

    she should only be your future WIFE if you ARE her past.

    we have 60+ years to screw but only a few years to find a prime wife.

    young guys need to understand this. the clock is ticking. finding a good wife is our version of the wall. as a young man living under your parents’ roof you are limited by geography and time.

    the crop of chicks you start to notice in fourth grade is your pool of potential wives (hopefully your parents made good choices and you live in a good area with lots of hot moms and therefore hot young daughters). by 15 they’ll all be taking cock. make sure it’s yours.

    10% of women care more about a fictional man than their actual partner/spouse. what chance do you think you stand against her very real badass fatcock first bf who taught her how to fuck?

    hunting for wives in a crop of women at and beyond bar age is insane. have fun fucking them but don’t for a second think that you can own them.

    “Unfortunately, as things are structured, marriage will always be a cost-to-benefit losing proposition while women insist on making marriage a legalistic contract of male-only liabilities.”

    always is a strong word. if your wife (pre marriage) has seen you do nasty things, break laws, hurt people, plan and execute cold revenge, not only will this make her wet, it will make her think more than twice about acting against your best interests.

    sure, the state may be on her side, but in the back of her mind she’ll be weighing that against your proven potential to ruin her at the time of your choosing. she’s seen what you’ve done to people you don’t like and once she becomes a person you don’t like she’ll know all bets are off. women are very good at abstract calculation when it suits them.

    I love being married. For me the benefits far outweigh the costs.

    and since this post is about parenting:

    my dad was the final say. in everything. I grew up terrified of him. raising his voice was more than enough to keep me in line.

    and by in line I mean not getting caught breaking the rules. he watched me like a hawk, which made me better at lying and deception. this was a gift he gave me that I did not understand until many years later.

    he never once sat me down and said “this is how this works”. he didn’t teach me to shave. I taught myself. he didn’t teach me one thing about girls. I figured it out myself. he never once gave me adivce about anything.

    what he did was let me figure things out on my own while providing examples through his behavior. he used to sit on the porch with a beer and watch me mow his lawn, or paint his house or wash his cars. At the time I thought he was a dick, but I now look back on those days fondly.

    there were times I hated his guts. this turned out to be essential for our relationship today. he was strong enough to let me hate his guts. he didn’t give a shit about being my “friend” or what I thought about anything. only about keeping me out of trouble.

    today I have an excellent relationship with my father and credit him beyond all others with helping to shape me into a free-thinking individual living the life that I choose.

    he raised a red pill son without saying a word about it.

  60. Just about any woman alive in the US has a history, but they dont all include a bouncy house and 4 guys on spring break.

    Cocaine is a hell of a drug. haha, but seriously I think you can gather more from a woman’s character by dating her for a while than by judging her sexual history. It just seems like such a beta move IMO. Also, the whole sexual expectations that ianironwood is talking about… Why would you talk about that? Just do it and don’t ask for permission. Sheesh. It seems like basic red pill theory to me.

  61. Andy, “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman.”

    On behalf of every prostitute in the world, who’s working her ass/ mouth off , I’d like to thank you.

    You are now the Robin prostitute hood.

  62. More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by.

    I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.

  63. @SD

    How can a man vet a modern woman for commitment?

    Realistically it’s impossible to ever truly completely know any person in your life. Used to be that social shaming of sluts + lower mobility due to lower technology (no escaping your past if moving away is hard) + a marriage system that wasn’t a game of Russian Roulette more or less took care of it for you if your Frame was solid. Not so much anymore.

    The trick then is to get good at reading people and to use dread. I’m fortunate to have a pretty good natural read of women’s base personality. I’m still pretty much shit at pick up, but I can tell you within a few minutes if a woman has a past or not, has psychological issues or not, and is in to you or not. Friends actually bring me their chicks and have me meet them just so I’ll give them the heads up. Often they initially get angry (I don’t sugar coat it), but later they thank me as I’m almost always right.

    Here’s the secret to reading people though: it’s about trusting your gut before you trust them. If your gut says “That bitch can measure the amount of cock she’s had in miles,” you can’t let your innate desire for her to be a unicorn talk you out of it. You listen to your gut, switch on your objectivity, and just poke at it by seeming like you’re cool with whatever she says. “Awwww, c’mon you can tell me. No judgement. I promise!” and mean it.

    You don’t love her, hate her, respect her, or disrespect her for it. You simply decide: ONS, plate, or (in the event she’s been a good plate for a while) LTR. In all cases you keep the dread up to keep her fearing losing you. Fear of losing you can keep her with you no matter her past. It’s just a matter of a woman being worth the effort coupled with your ability to keep her in line and shape her in to the best she can be.

    Plates are just women you’re vetting continually and using to put other plates in dread. Trust your gut when you spot an inconsistency and she seems to be making up stories around it. Learn to pay attention to what she says as well as what she doesn’t say. And as Rollo has made the point before: throw out LTR as goal. That’s the best way to assess women honestly. If you’re not thirsty for an LTR, you put yourself under far less pressure. Makes it a lot easier to trust your gut and be objective instead of letting a woman guilt you in to accepting her piss poor stories.

  64. @Andy

    More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by.

    I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.

    Nah, it’s just being realistic.

    First, there have been studies that show women who have had more partners lose their ability to pair bond. They get bored more easily and are more likely to bail on you or hate you behind your back because you’re not the previous partner she thinks about when you’re fucking her.

    Second, it’s simple statistics. More dudes means more chance she’s slept with Chad before you and couldn’t lock him down, hence the reason she’s still searching. She might be worth plating but not worth committing to if there’s a guy from her past you’re going to be force in to competing with.

    This is why sluts were shamed in the past. People instinctively realize the problems a high N count in a woman creates, and it makes her a piss poor choice as a partner and mother of your children.

  65. Red pill parenting, is telling you sons and daughters , “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman.”

  66. ” I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.”

    Argument from Undesired Consequences. Implicitly an Appeal to Emotion, which in this case you have actually made explicit.

  67. Andy – this isn’t about self defeat, its about protecting your future and finances. Its also a cost analysis: how much work to keep this woman around versus what I get out of it for the effort. For me, high effort women aren’t worth it, full stop. Sure, I need to be on my game for myself, but I don’t see a reason to make the task harder than necessary. And willingly wifing up a woman with a track record of highly hypergamous behavior IS making it difficult and exposing you to financial ruin. And for what? A HB9-10 trophy wife?

    Do what you feel confident in doing, but don’t go into it blind and with your hands tied behind your back.

  68. US marriage and divorce laws came up a few times now. I’m getting the impression they are especially fucked up compared to other countries. I’ll give you an example:

    Here in Germany she will get only half the increase in the families wealth during the marriage. What you had before or got by inheritance is yours and stays yours. If for some reason she got the bigger increase in her books, she will have to give half. And if you didn’t get more wealthy during the marriage, she doesn’t get anything. If you know what you’re doing there are plenty of ways to be creative in between her telling you she wants divorce and you getting the papers from court, which is the day to count.

    Of course there is alimony too. But after some change of laws in ’98 the default is now she doesn’t get anything after divorce and has to work herself. But there are a lot of exceptions, like if she has little children to care for, so she cannot work. Or if you organized the family in a way she couldn’t pursue a career. But even then she would only get something to compensate for that loss, which isn’t enough to live off it, and which is derived from the difference of the incomes both do actually achieve.

    Child support is of course mandatory and not being able to pay the minimum can bring you in jail if you don’t try everything reasonable to get there. But child support will always depend only on what you actually earn. In case of alimony for the ex-wife limited on top by what was your standard of living during marriage. So if you lose your job, enterprise or whatever, the payments get lower and on top there is a limit (about 30% above social security) which can’t be taken from you.

    On top of it you can manage a lot of additional things in a marriage contract, which will be respected as long as you don’t contract something unfairly penalizing the other.

    So while marriage still has economic risks, they aren’t actually high over here. (I still wouldn’t do it because I see no reason to give her unnecessary security & comfort. For what?)

    So while I like the bottom-up approach of the RedPill very much (it doesn’t depend on others but gives you real power), you US-Boys should think about necessary political change? These laws will only change if either: 1. nobody marries anymore under these conditions or 2. there is a political movement seeking change that gets big enough.

  69. I consider myself a red pill parent. I am married (mistake #1 I know) and have a 1 year old child. We are planning to have at least 3 children. I became red pill aware gradually by the time of the wedding with my current wife. Before that I did not know TRP but I had some minimal PUA knowledge. I wanted to raise children in a family so I have consciously searched for good mother material using my instincts and previous knowledge from what I have seen in the world. Up to now I am happy with the results.

    In the last few years I have have thought much about the topic and also have some experience:

    The first point is that you have to be absolutely conscious about your goals. This is the time when you must hold your frame for all cost. Whatever sexy a girl can be. If she is not mother material you have to dump her (after plating for a while).

    Most of young woman are not raised to be mothers. If you want to have a proper family you either have to find the unicorn or you have to finish the education of your woman. There are some issues that may be changed for good. In my example:
    * I had an expectation that my later wife must not have any self destructig habit. Actually it was almost impossible to find any woman who was not smoking. At the end I have found a woman (my later wife) who seemed to be wife/mother material but she was smoking. I have told her that she can only be my girlfriend (from a fuck buddy status) if she stops smoking. Luckily she did that and she is absent of self destruction now.
    * Young woman don’t plan to give birth before 30. I had to persuade my later wife that we don’t have time to waste but have to have a baby as soon as possible after we made the decision that we want to have a family. It was part of the marriage deal that after the marriage we stop all contraception and try to make a baby as soon as possible.

    (Important to note that you have to do some things that are traditionally the task of the woman: you have to persuade your woman to have children early and to live a reasonable life. This is the result of feminism and I don’t see the chance to avoid this flip of gender roles. You are the awakened red pill you have to be responsible to direct your woman to the sane path. Or find a unicorn. Good luck with that!)

    A very important point of my frame is that we went to a healty life style together. We have found this lifestyle together – with my lead.
    * We are eating a paleo diet (the paleo diet is the red pill of human nutrition). I almost never cheat on it. Besides the improved health it also helps strengthening my frame every day. As we do it together it also improves the bonding.
    * It is her task to do the household and cook fresh food almost every day. It is considered her natural task not something to make fuss about.
    * I am doing high intensity resistance training regularly.

    Modern people don’t have the right example how to do parenting. We have to learn it from books and use our instincts. Due to this fact we also have to help our woman to find the right path. It is similar to the education. It is not teached how to be a parent and the little that is taught is mostly rubbish. It is your job to find the right path and show it to your woman. These topics are considered not to be masculine. But we have to get knowledge in them to have a chance to avoid the traps that can make a marriage/LTR a nightmare. Knowledge in feminine areas don’t make you less masculine. Instead it gives you a chance to take the lead in areas that are inaccessible for most other men.
    * I have studied all knowledge how to decrease the risk of giving birth to minimum. Then I helped her to get the proper knowledge. In the beginning she was afraid of giving birth. After the studies she has became confident and gave birth at home with no problem at all (homebirth is the red pill of child birth – you also minimize the chance of trauma that may destroy your sexual life).
    * We are raising our child based on evolutionary methods. Co-sleeping, carrying, bonding etc. It is very important so that he/she will be a confident grown up. Parenting this way is also less tiring than anything else because the child is calm by nature. So we sleep enough and have time for sex and all from the first moment the child was born.

    This is where we are now. I feel that we are on the right track. I hope I will be strong enough to keep my family together. Things that will become important later as our child grows:

    * You have to protect your child from the mind-destroying influence of pop culture and feminism as long as possible. No TV, no Facebook, no nonsense bullshit.
    * You have to show your ideology to your offsprings early. You are leading by example from the first minute of life! It is best to avoid disney and tell tales that teach truth instead of blue pill stuff.
    * You have to show your child how brain washing works. Show how ridiculous advertisments, feminists, SJWs etc are.
    * The Red Pill must be taught to the child gradually from infancy. Most has to be taught at latest when he/she becomes a teenager.
    * It may be clever to avoid kindergarten and school. Or at least try to prevent it from ruining his/her self-confidence and doing too much cultural influence (pop culture and feminism).
    * You have to help your child to orient to useful knowledge in school and avoid rubbish that don’t pay out (instead of gender studies study STEM)

  70. @JSmith: the data speaks for itself. Well done. Alpha widowing is possibly (probably) the “how” or “why” it happens, but regardless the data shows it does happen.

  71. @Sun Wukong

    Okay, say you ask some chick about her sexual past. What exactly is she going to say that is going to make you feel better??? Why do you want to feel better in the first place? You’re just screaming “I’m an insecure Beta!”

    Just make sure that you’re her Chad. If you don’t believe you are deep down you’ve already lost.


    Same thing. There’s only so many of us around. Of course there’s going to be Alpha widows, but there are lucky girls that end up with us.

    1. It’s not about making you feel better about her past, it’s about collecting information from which to make an informed decision.

      I agree, overtly asking her smacks of Beta insecurities and forces her into a position of playing a role she thinks you expect, or she doubles down and shames you for ‘judging’ her.

      Either way the data you hoped to glean is corrupted. Far better to be subtle and covert about it. Most men don’t have the patience or mastery for it, but women LOVE to talk about themselves and with the right art she’ll volunteer every honest detail of her past if you never tip your hand.

  72. Andy “More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by.

    I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.”

    On behalf of every cuckold, every pimp, every slut, every feminist, would like to thank you for an outstanding mindset.

    Special thanks from the porn industry too.
    Sheryl Sandberg loves you too.

  73. @Andy

    Okay, say you ask some chick about her sexual past. What exactly is she going to say that is going to make you feel better??? Why do you want to feel better in the first place? You’re just screaming “I’m an insecure Beta!”

    You missed my point.

    Do I care about how it makes me feel? No. I’m just vetting for what they should be to me without feelings getting involved. Since that’s the frame I come from, do I phrase it like a Beta or make it a priority? Nope. If it comes up (i.e. she says “You sound like such a player”) I turn it around on her as a natural, playful part of conversation. Then I tell her nothing about my past. It’s just another game to play, but I get useful information out of it.”

    As for the last bit, you’re just telling me shit I already know.

  74. Andy – “Just make sure that you’re her Chad. If you don’t believe you are deep down you’ve already lost.”

    Good luck! While I don’t disagree with you, and in fact act in accordance with your statement daily, I simply don’t operate on a “jump and pray” model. Risk assessments are how I hedge my bets, and at a certain level some women are simply too much risk. You’re right there are no garaunties, but past track record seems a decent heuristic to measure hypergamous tendencies in a prospective wife. It isn’t necessarily her N that matters, but how she got it.

  75. Great, for I’m leaning towards Andy’s side. Trying to find the sweet spot between “quality women” and the risk of her “making up for missing out” doesn’t sound like a good idea. If your wife/LTR is so busy making sure you don’t cheat on her and you don’t upgrade her for something hotter, she wont have time to cheat on you or think about divorce.

      1. Mrs. Gamer was corralled by her father until she moved out of her house after finishing college. No bf’s. N = 0 before we married. Maybe 0.1 if you consider kissing on the lips to cause a little risk.

        Mrs. Gamer also used to chase her older brother out of her family’s house. Kate in “Taming of the Shrew” fits Mrs. Gamer very accurately.

        Quality in some ways, not in others. The shrewishness is tameable and trainable (out). Sluttishness not so much.

        Our marriage has been sweet lo these last three months. I keep getting loyalty tests from Mrs. Gamer and others about why I go out solo. “I wear the pants.” is my std. reply.

        A friend related something another friend had told him. “I’ve been happily married for 14 years. 14 out of 24 isn’t bad.”

  76. I’ve got a post warming up for you. I’ll publish tomorrow.


    Anyway, I feel like you can tell when a chick is super into you sexually. If she gets bored fast, then ditch her. If she fucked 30 losers and the fucking man, then you’re the fucking man.

  77. “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men ((((ANDY)))exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

  78. “If she fucked 30 losers”

    if she fucked 30 then she’s way too old. 30 losers? then your standards are way too low.

    there are young ones turning legal every day. why bother with the used up old ones?

    oh yeah, because even the most seasoned puas shit their pants at cold approaching 17 year olds without the help of alcohol and the bar/club environment.

    why settle for some other dudes’ leftovers when you can pick them fresh?

    oh yeah, because it’s way fucking harder.

    there are few things that feel better than rising to a challenge. if you’re not uncomfortable then you’re not pushing yourself far enough.

    a lot of this drama over sexual histories would be erased if guys stopped considering old bags as options.

    they peak before 18. plan accordingly.

  79. “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman.”

    Yes this was posted in The Rational Male/the manosphere.

  80. To me saying a woman’s past sexual history means nothing smacks of “sex positive” thinking from the FI. Of course women don’t want to be judged on their past “mistakes”, but that isn’t a mans problem to solve.

  81. I have found a woman with wife potential. Ive found that my extensive vetting has actually been a DHV and form of dread. Even pretty open, direct, and formal vetting (i.e. talking about parenting style, the failure of divorce, gender differences/expectations) has proven to make her qualify to me.

    Its an interesting balance when your woman approaches unicorn status while still being aware of AWALT. Im testing the waters thoroughly and evaluating everything through an RP lens.

    How do men/fathers quell the drive and desire for new mating opportunities even with an amazing woman? Seems like tough human nature to just sweep under the rug. Thats the only thing I cant really wrap my head around. Thanks y’all, great discussion as always.

    1. Lay off Andy for a minute. He’s still learning.

      I wrote this in the Slut Paradox post, but I’m less concerned with a woman’s N-count than I am about the strength of the impression left by the most impressive Alpha she’s ever been with.

      Granted, more frequency means more potential for that, but if a woman has only ever been with one guy and that dude was an apex Alpha to her, then one is all it takes.

      If she’s been with a dozen guys and they were all Beta losers, or went Beta after the fact, and I’m the apex Alpha of her sexual experience, then I’m less concerned with N-count.

      In either case, determining the history of her past performance is a fundamental necessity of EVER considering basic monogamy, much less marriage or family plans.

  82. Either way the data you hoped to glean is corrupted. Far better to be subtle and covert about it.

    Yeah, but what exactly are you trying to find out? You want a number? I feel like you can tell if you’re “the guy.” I feel like you’re taking my side with that slut paradox. Say you find the (hypothetical) snow white, and you ass fuck her and cum on her face on day one. Is she no longer snow white? I mean say she worships the ground you walk on for months. Why does her sexual history matter other than for reasons of ego?

  83. For the record. My ideal would probably be a 23yr old 8 that grew up middle class, fucked around for a few years and was intensely obsessed with me.

  84. “Say you find the (hypothetical) snow white, and you ass fuck her and cum on her face on day one. Is she no longer snow white?”

    First of all, she was never snow white. Second, if you filled her ass and came on her face day 1, are you gonna buy it when she tells you she “usually doesn’t do this kind of thing” while you bust your nut?

  85. Rollo
    “but I’m less concerned with a woman’s N-count than I am about the strength of the impression left by the most impressive Alpha she’s ever been with.”

    Rollo, what is the cock carousel ?
    Is it okay when a woman tells me she fucked 45 guy but only one of them was “special”?

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