The Vetting Process

vetting

I apologize for interrupting the flow of this series’ posts, but I felt this question from reader Andy deserved a full stop:

I could care less who I’m talking to. IMO if you’re looking to disqualify a woman based on her sexual history you’re doing yourself a disservice because you better believe that the high quality chicks have been fucked in every way imaginable. If not you it’s somebody else… Might as well be you!

Have a look at this guy’s story in Saving the Best:

“I married a slut who fucks like a prude.”

Andy, I do agree with you in part. Too much overt concern (i.e. asking) about a woman’s sexual past is indeed demonstrating lower value. Men whom women consider Alpha, the men that women already have a mental impression of, don’t overly concern themselves with women’s sexual pasts because those men have multiple options going.

On some level of consciousness women know that if what he can glean from interacting with her about her sexual past is off-putting to an Alpha he’ll simply eject and move on to a better prospect. An Alpha mindset is often very minimalist, blunt and direct, but there are aspects of interacting with women that come as a default for a man who is his own Mental Point of Origin. One of those unspoken aspects is a self-understanding that he has options (or can generate more) and this is manifested in his indifference to a woman’s long term sexual suitability. If she doesn’t enter his Frame, to his satisfaction, he moves on to the next prospect with very little communication.

However, we weren’t discussing non-exclusive dating/fucking; we’re discussing making an investment in a woman we’re vetting for our own parental investment. When you consider the all-downside risks a man must wager on that investment it behooves him to be his most particular about that woman’s sexual past and the consequences that YOU will be burdened with if you don’t vet wisely.

Most men (myself included at the time) have very sparse prerequisites when it comes to their considering a woman for marriage or even an LTR. This lack of insight is the result of a constant battery of shame and preconditioning by the Feminine Imperative that tells men any requisites they would have of a woman for marriage are ‘passing judgement’ on her character. He should consider himself “lucky” that any woman would have him for a husband (or “put up with him”) and his concerns about her are shameful, typically male character flaws on his part.

Consequentially men rarely permit themselves the luxury of putting their own considerations above that of a potential mate.

Vetting

If you asked a woman whether she would be wary of marrying a man who was a recovering alcoholic or a cleaned up heroin addict she’d probably disqualify him as a marriage prospect from the outset. And were she to go ahead and marry him anyway with full disclosure of his past addictions, would we be sympathetic with her if he were to relapse and she to bear the brunt of his past indiscretions?

Now suppose that woman married this former addict, but due to his being offended about her prying into his past, she was ignorant of his old addictions. She has her suspicions, but society tells her it’s not her purview to hold him accountable for anything that happened in his past.

He’s moved on and so should she, right? Any lingering consequences from his addictions (such as a DUI, criminal record or his unemployability) shouldn’t be held against him, nor should she judge him, nor should she consider those consequences whatsoever when she’s assessing his suitability for marriage now.

In fact, she should feel ashamed to even consider his past with regard to her feelings about who he is. Her judgementalism only points to her own character flaws.

Now, would we praise that woman for “following her heart” and marrying him? Would we hold her accountable for the decision to marry him if he relapses?

Reverse the genders and this scenario is precisely why women become so hostile when men even hint at ‘judging’ women’s past sexual decisions. There is a very well established operative social convention that the sisterhood will all unanimously get behind; and that is the ruthless shaming of men who would ask any questions about any woman’s sexual past. This is the degree of desperation that women feel during the Epiphany Phase when they acknowledge men becoming aware of their long term sexual strategy.

They understand that, in their Epiphany Phase, the clock is ticking down to zero. That’s the cause of a lot of anxiety. They are just beginning to understand that their marriageability (Beta Bucks) now conflicts with their previous short-term mating strategy (Alpha Fucks). As I detailed in Betas in Waiting, women of this age cannot afford to have their short term sexual strategy count against them at a time when they are at their most necessitous of what that Beta can provide towards her long term security.

Again, on some level of consciousness, women understand that were the ignorant Beta she’s decided to marry (start a family with or help her raise her illegitimate children with) becomes aware of what she did in her sexual past he too might expect that same degree of sexual performance. The performance she reserved for the men she perceived as Alpha and freely gave to them.

Women must keep the details of that past secret and obscured. So grave is this anxiety that men must be punished for having the temerity to be curious about it. It is vitally important because a woman’s capacity to bond with a man is reduced with every new sexual partner. Every new sexual partner is a potential Alpha to be widowed by, but the man who marries her must be kept ignorant of those men if she is to secure his resources and his parental investment.

This social convention operates on absolving women’s past indiscretions by redefining them as a period of learning who she would become. It was her “journey of self-discovery” and she’s “not that person” any more. Cleverly enough this is exactly the same convention and same rationale of women who divorce their husbands later in life to “take the journey of self-discovery” of Eat, Prey, Love she passed up when she was younger.

Knowing this, it is also vitally important for men to keep women’s dualistic sexual strategy in mind at every age of her maturity.

Lets not forget the advice of Sheryl Sandberg here:

“When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

― Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead

Open Hypergamy is triumphantly crowed about when women are at their SMV peaks, and sometimes again once that woman has secured her long-term provider or divorced him, but when a woman is in her Epiphany Phase, when she’s anxious and frustrated in securing her own long term provisioning, that is when she will fall back on the social convention that shames men for their own awareness of the same Open Hypergamy they would otherwise flaunt for him.

So, now that we understand the latent purpose of this social convention, let me explain to every gentleman reading – vetting a woman’s sexual past is not just your prerogative, but an absolute imperative to the health of any future relationship you hope to have with her. When you consider the dire risks you are essentially setting yourself up for – risk no woman will EVER acknowledge or appreciate – the single most important thing you can do is vet that woman’s sexual past.

That doesn’t mean you make weak, DLV, overt inquiries about her past. It means you subtly, covertly and discretely pick up on the many cues and tells she will reveal that past with. Most men would rather use a direct approach to this, and while there’s merit to that, it’s far better to do your vetting by drawing out freely offered information. It’s much more honest and reliable. Once you go the direct route the jig is up and she will play the role she thinks you expect from her, not the honest one you need to make your determinations.

Sex is the glue that holds relationships together. It’s the height of irony that a woman would place so high a priority on her own sexual experiences while in her SMV peak yet completely disqualify that importance when she gets to the phase where it becomes a liability to her. As a man it is vitally important for you to know whether you’ll be her apex Alpha lover or if your burden of performance will be measured against the ghosts of Alpha men from her sexual past – all while you endure the stresses and joys of raising children with her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

577 comments on “The Vetting Process

  1. @Andy – More assholeishness, what a dick. No comparison. You are clearly wrong in your factual assertions about the sexual behavior of college students in the U.S. – I gave you some facts to show you that. Do some googling, you’ll see what I cited was correct.

    But that doesn’t seem to matter to you. As for my comments about being alpha – that’s something other people told me, I never thought I was. Part of being a “natural” is not realizing it. I went through all this, but you need to take offense because it makes you insecure or some shit. Whatevs…

    Funniest, you know you are an asshole – why not trying to fix that, bunky?

  2. @DocG – Go suck a pile of dicks, fucktard. Making diagnoses over the web is a big no-no for actual practitioners. But hey, don’t let that slow your roll.

    Me doth think you are projecting, dipshit. Move along now child, men are talking.

    @Keyser – Andy makes me miss InsanityBytes too.

    @Rollo – ROFLMAO on the Tucker Max photo. I listened to him in my early TRM days, post MGTOW and I found him to be an inconsistent, pseudo-intellectual and insufferable douche.

    He did write a great piece on angel investing though – won’t link it here as I don’t want to promote a douche like him…

  3. I have to admit when I was younger (early 20s) and read Tucker’s story about first time anal sex, I was crying laughing. I wish he would go back to those days. His new shit is just lame. It’s not even funny, just lame and sad.

  4. @ docg

    Congrats on the fleeting moment of lucidity and decency; even though narcissists calling out psychopaths on their psychopathy is a kind of the pot – kettle deal.

    Apprehend an aeronautical fornication vectored towards an oscillating pastry.

  5. @ IAS

    Did you happen to notice if
    a) that woman had a face similar in some respect with someone else you already knew (and possibly liked)

    It had nothing to do with that. Rather, I danced with her a 5h1t-ton. She asked me a lot and I asked her a lot. We both developed that addiction. In addition, she had a major crush on me. She was getting loads of love-drugs. Furthermore, she was a very experienced dancer–much more than me–and had encountered this situation before several times, most probably, and it was part of her seduction game. Older HB6 aiming to nail a HG8+.

  6. @lh

    “It’s kinda difficult: The discussion would surely be better if it were about advancing the topics of interest and not only fights for hierarchies and ego-investments. But on the other hand it is also important we all (re-)connect to our masculine strengths and live them, for which this is also a playground.”

    I was thinking a similar thing. Andy’s clearly pushing buttons here to test mettle and get more powerful responses. It slows discussion, but is also kinda how men work. Both aspects are important.

    I think that, though nothing is perfect, the general lucidity and helpfulness, and the holding of strong frame, that distinguished men’s replies to him did great credit to this place. Try that shit anywhere else on the internet.

  7. “one thing this and other similar blogs have opened my eyes to is the reality of a woman’s sexual power after a certain age”

    Some derive a certain amount of comfort from the concept of “The Wall”.
    But thirsty fellows are not in short supply. Couple of 70 year old ladies of my acquaintance have been propositioned by younger men recently.
    Mindboggling.

  8. Hi Rollo and everyone else

    thanks for the responses, especially Rollo for responding on the same day
    yeah I kinda guessed that Strauss was cashing in and selling out.

    I’m an Asian from Asia so we don’t really keep tabs on the American Game scene that much, only when we happen across an article here or there or when someone spots an interesting thread in a manosphere forum and puts up link in a local forum

    local game here in my part of Asia is also tough cos it’s basically premised on beta provider game but with the added expectation of being alpha in some way like looks, social status or being uber rich.

    rising number of singles in my city and plummeting TFR because the men find women too obnoxious/demanding and would rather stick to computer/console games, jacking off and hookers. or they get a mail order bride. and the women either become 40plus spinsters who engage in hamster rationalisation and complaining about men or they try to snag a Caucasian guy the same age or older who doesn’t mind that they’re past their expiry date.

    (*__*)”

  9. Couple of 70 year old ladies of my acquaintance have been propositioned by younger men recently

    they don’t want sex, they want casseroles, most younger women never learn to cook well

  10. @SD
    “What’s your close rate in terms of approaches vs F-closes?”

    Zero. I’m a neckbeard virgin living in his mother’s basement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LckdmM-9RE

    @scribblerg @Andy
    “No comparison. You are clearly wrong in your factual assertions about the sexual behavior of college students in the U.S.”

    I don’t really get why everyone is shitting on Andy lol From what I’ve seen being around the college crowd they are all sucking dick left and right. Not even just the bar girls (we meet girls outside of bars or girls who don’t go to bars, and hanging with these girls they show you their texts and shit from their friends and tell you all about their sexual escapades their friends are having). Sex is no big deal to the <25yo crowd anymore. I think it's optimistic at best, delusional at worst to think that girls are coming out of college with anything less than a 10+ n-count of sexual experiences probably closer to 20+ if you include the stuff like drunken BJs and fingering and shit.

    I know older guys kind of want to hope that that's just "the slutty party girls" but the culture has shifted so dramatically in the last 10 years. Like it wasn't even like this when I started out in pickup. Social media and the hardcore tripling-down of eat pray love cock-carousel encouragement CHANGED things. These girls don't even have to fuck guys in their social circles, they can fuck randoms off the Internet, the hotter ones are getting flown to places to fuck sugardaddies etc. A lot of these girls don't even view it as "slutting it up", it's just "ya we fooled around a bit" like of COURSE we did, it's not this big special "I have to wait for The One to share the magical souls intertwining experience that is sex" like a "wait till marriage" educational video they show in Sex Ed class anymore.

    From what I'm seeing out in the field, Andy's assessment of college girls' n-counts isn't anything crazy. Most chicks start being sexually active around 15 with like a boyfriend, and step it up in high-school, and once they hit college they ramp it up hardcore. So you have like, 5-6 years where they're dating for parts of that and eat pray loving for other parts of that so like half the year they're in an LTR but then they break up and go on a dick sucking rampage (encouraged by their GFs and media) to revalidate themselves and rack up like 10-15 parteners over the next 6 months (that's like 2 partners a month, that's LOW if we're talking about BJs and shit counting too). Multiply that by 5-6 years and by the time a chick is coming out of college she's probably got a solid n-count of 20 BARE MINIMUM probably 50+ is more common.

    It's theoretically POSSIBLE for a girl to come out of college with a 0 n-count, but she would have to resist a SHITLOAD of social conditioning and social pressure from EVERY FUCKING DIRECTION…and like, chicks don't NEED to resist social conditioning, these girls don't have anyone (strong fathers, religion, social shaming, wise mothers, media messages, etc) to tell them they shouldn't be fucking around so much and according to the FI media there will be NO CONSEQUENCES to riding the carousel, they'll still land a doctor in their 30s who doesn't judge their past just like Amy Shumer's latest movie tells them.

    So why WOULD they come out of there with a 0 n-count?? Everyone else is doing this shit so they follow along like lemmings. And just like a group of fat chicks will inevitably pressure their skinny friend into getting fat like them to feel better about themselves, the chicks with 20+ n-counts want their 0 n-count friend to get laid and help facilitate and pressure it to happen.

    I think the only way chicks are coming out of college with anything under like a 10 n-count lifetime total is if they're weirdly sexually repressed like they had a near rape experience and are damaged from that and scared of sex, which isn't probably a chick you want to deal with, or if they're not having P-in-V sex and are just not counting anything that isn't P-in-V (so the BJ she gave that guy while she was drunk at a party before he didn't call her back doesn't count because she didn't get to date him, the guy she let go down on her doesn't count because he couldn't get her to orgasm, the guy she blew on vacation doesn't count because he doesn't live near her, she was in a month long relationship and they just did oral for a few months so it doesn't count as n-count).

    It's like Tyler says: "Ask a girl if she's a slut who hooks up a lot and she'll say no way. Then ask her if she has any FRIENDS that are like that and she'll be like "OH YA TOTALLY THOSE BITCHES ARE ALL CRAZY NOT ME THOUGH"" lol

    I can see shitting on Andy's views on bailing on his marriage to chase young poon around, but his claim about chicks having high n-counts these days is nothing crazy.

    The conclusion here might be "well multiple n-counts mean a girl has trouble committing". I don't entirely disagree so I would say simply don't commit in 2015. Stick to harems and shit, or run a pLTR if you want anything LTR related, and fully understand Hypergamy to increase your odds, but avoid any legal long-term commitment, no moving in together or anything, and if you want kids vet like a motherfucker and accept that she may bail on you and try to take them one day when she gets bored and follows what society has brainwashed her to follow (bail and take what she can get from you because she "deserves" it because you were "abusive and controlling").

    If you're 45+ and you just want to roll the dice because you want kids and are willing to take the chance and you've vetted a quality chick and you don't care if you lose some $ in a split-up etc., I mean, give it a go. But if you're <35yo you should NOT be settling down in 2015. If you want any kind of LTR save it for 35+ or make it a pLTR.

  11. benfromtexas,

    “Just remember going in empty handed. You are there for one item. The staff could also help you find stuff. I’ve hit on women stocking stuff on shelves by having them show me where something is.”

    Sounds like the staff at your store(s) and the customers are mostly hotter than in my locale. (If I remember correctly you’re in a university town?) The woman staffer I was playing with last month has disappeared (quit?) and so far nobody to take her place. The shoppers are another matter and although engaging them might be a bit beyond my comfort level for approach, I’m up for the challenge. I may try at a distant, more target -rich and upscale supermarket, so as to not poop where I eat…..thanks.

    1. Target Whole Food type stores, and yeah I live in a college town. My environment is very target rich. All college girls work in the stores. The only thing that sucks here is the summers when all the coeds leave.

    2. If you have major approach anxiety I got a way of getting rid of it that works. I always have to warm up to “get in the zone” to approach my desired target.

      What I do is approach 2 or 3 fatties. Women I will have NO interest in. I do a false time constraint. I’ll say I’m going to the frozen section, but before I leave I want your opinion,”Do you know what’s better for you? Soy milk or almond milk? I’m thinking about trying one out. It’s a good grocery store opinion opener. Women usually have a friend or family member that is lactose intolerant or are on a strict paleo diet with no dairy.

      I get my answer and approach another fattie in another section. I still sometimes get approach anxiety, but I’ve found AA is more of a state of mind not, & not being scared of rejection. Talk to people and learn to be social. Comfort comes from being very social. That’s why when I get rejected, I just don’t care because I’m in a social state.

  12. @Sun

    Have you considered Houston? It doesnt have as much of the fake pretentiousness and snobby posturing that DFW has. Girls seem to be sweeter here too in general.

  13. Following on YaReally’s video, I have been at a bar and seen a mother-in-law/daughter-in-law pair making out with a man at their table. MIL is NB4 and DIL is HB8. 2 a.m. Grabbing his crotch. His hand down DIL’s top and grabbing her ass.

    DIL wants me to do this 5h1t and I told her no. Ugh, PDA doesn’t appeal to me. Subtle stuff, sure, like playing “Don’t let the kids catch us flirting”.

    DIL does this if men buy her drinks. DIL hinted that I should buy her drinks. Never did. Every now and then she will want to dance with me and wants “attention”. C cups, it’s tempting. In the middle of a dance, she’ll jump to make them jiggle. But without a payoff, makeouts only benefit women. Dancing with DIL gives me some preselection and her some attention.

  14. What a thread, didn’t want to weigh in on this until just now.

    From @Andy

    “I’m not implying that I’m omnipotent. If I’m making decisions that affect my life, I think I’ll choose my intuition over some avatar on a keyboard. 🙂 I don’t see why that’s laughable. I take everything I read here seriously except for scribbleberg. j/k. All of our experience taken together means something.”

    Why I keep returning to this site everyday to fill my mental space with this is because it’s easy for me to know many people on here DO KNOW what the fuck they are talking about. I know this because after I digest what I read I relate it to my own personal experiences and it rings true. So often sometimes it hurts and forces me to confront shit I was either fearful of or wanted to wish away. Facts are facts and when information is presented and it turns out to be real and gets results or helps me connect the dots to the beta life I lead for many years it’s damn helpful.

    Are these men prophets, saints, gurus or cultists? Fuck no. The smartest men on this site are careful to make sure they are exactly not those kind of people. Some stuff I find interesting as amusement because I’m not ready to be pickup artist (PUA) but it’s fascinating to read. I’m not a pump and dump guy, not married or whatever. But when Rollo talks about FRAME I know damn well he is SPOT ON. When others discuss vetting I read, think back to relationships I’ve had and realize how absolutely blind and naive I was for the past 35 years of adult dating, marriage etc.

    I’m digging references from SJF to read as I jive with much of what he posts lately, doesn’t mean it’s for everybody. A shit ton of this site is very very situational depending on your age, life experience and what your goals are. Some stuff doesn’t apply to others, take what good there is and be grateful for how incredibly important and powerful this community Rollo has created really is. I’ve had a two good counselors my entire life, neither of them explained from personal experience or book knowledge the depth of what I read on the Rational Male (RM).

    It is good not to just trust any ol’ brand of shrill posted on the Interwebs. VERIFY, VETT and experience your own life actions. Find what works for yourself to be real and true. There is so much garbage out there it’s gross. The RM is a rock, a jewel really. It’s solid and through my own validation by far is the best thing for me at this point in my life. It fits with helping learn frame and focus on my goals. Living with self-respect, demanding respect from those in my life when it’s appropriate and not taking shit from women OR men any longer that try to walk all over me.

    I had to tell my son today he had to find another place to live because he told me to fuck off and railed on me about how I was so awful for divorcing his mother and that I was a loser and asshole. It sucked big time and hurts as I just starting making progress with him. If I had not come upon this site and understood how important it was to maintain frame I would have caved and walked away. If I were Buddha I would have told him I loved him when he told me to fuck off. I’m not Buddha, but If I had no self-respect I would have done nothing but but ignore him. I’m no longer allowing beta mentality and my ex’s manipulations of my kids to have any power in my life. This site isn’t just for dealing with women it’s about discovering what men have as potential and learning how to lead a life that brings integrity back into my life. It fucking hurts like hell today, but it’s what I need. A cold hard plate of truth.

    Amen bruthas and peace out.

  15. @ benfromtexas

    All college girls work in the stores. The only thing that sucks here is the summers when all the coeds leave.

    I was first laid during summer school in college. Not a lot of college men to choose from for a woman. Frat boys/athletes go home during summer school. Smart nerds take summer school classes. Women tend to be less choosy during summer school. Smart girls do summer school. And there’s not a lot of college activities going on during summer school to interest them, so they start thinking about sex more.

    With a lower student population during summer school, there are more opportunities for discrete hookups with engaged/married women.

  16. @ YaReally

    I actually like the broad I’ve been discussing because she tells the truth about women. Yeah, I’ve been vetting her, really. Lots of reasons to like her for the wingwoman job.

  17. I see no issue in having standards in regards to the past of a potential life partner, so long as those standards are fair. Which would obviously mean a person cannot expect a woman to have been with very few men while the man himself has been with dozens or hundreds of female partners. I see all too many times men who will state their number of past sexual partners while at the same time shaming the women they are with for even being with half as many partners. In this day and age, it’s not realistic to expect anyone to be relatively inexperienced, whether male or female. Everyone has a past.

  18. The movie “Train wreck” illustrates this perfectly. When I told my wife that the doctor would be a fool if he married and/or had kids with Amy Schumer’s character, her first respond was, “Don’t you think people can change?” I laughed. I told her not overnight. I didn’t mention that the girl was changing because of hypergamy and passing her peak SMV. My wife, being the feminist Amazonian Alpha she is, said I don’t have much faith in people. I replied that I have faith in reality and real world experience, and that at the first sign of relationship trouble or discontent that girl will be hitting the bottle and getting secret cocks on the side. My wife asked if I believe in redemption. Uh, not with a wealthy, famous surgeon who is recognized for his accomplishments and charitable contributions. I asked why a guy like him should pass his DNA on through a woman like that? Like most women, my wife believes slutbag alcoholics at the end of their prime deserve a doctor if they realize the error of their ways. I wish I’d flipped it around and asked if a wealthy, famous woman should overlook a similar life of behavior like this in a lower status man. Her brain probably would’ve fried.

    And am I concerned that my wife took this position and said all that shit? Yep.

  19. Dude

    Am I concerned that you attempted to explain logically to your wife the absurd notion of the doctor in the movie getting with the Trainwreck at the end of the movie? That you talked to your wife about “Fight Club”? Yep.

    Don’t talk about fight club. Don’t try to fry her brain. Try to moisten her loins.

  20. It has never, ever been more important in human history to vet and filter than it is now – especially with the rise of internet anonymity and the way women are today.

    If you looked back a few generations ago, and go to countries that still go by some of the old ways, you directly approached the girl’s family or vice versa and you got to know people through other known people in the community.

    This itself acted as a background check for a huge number of issues that are commonplace today, since you were visible and accountable.

    The problem now is way too different. There’s no damn way to know if anyone you meet is who you really think they are.

  21. > My hunch is that if most men understood what women actually find sexually attractive, virtually all of them would at least do better with women than they are presently doing.

    Except that society (that is, women and their children) doesn’t want this to happen even one bit. In fact, they want the opposite. What does the average woman say about the male companion she wants to have? “Why can’t he just get it?” That say it all. Betas are needed as pack mules, and are thus to live in ignorance. This has always been the unwritten rule in every society. <

    Politics needs it's voters to be ignorant….

    This is actually something you need to get from other men. A man's attraction is covert and cultivated, not so overtly physical and passive like a woman's.

    There's also one more problem – a lot of people doing this just for the girls – if that's the case, than someone else is still your mental point of origin. This needs to be done for YOUR evolution first. A man's like the sun, not like the moon.

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