I apologize for interrupting the flow of this series’ posts, but I felt this question from reader Andy deserved a full stop:
I could care less who I’m talking to. IMO if you’re looking to disqualify a woman based on her sexual history you’re doing yourself a disservice because you better believe that the high quality chicks have been fucked in every way imaginable. If not you it’s somebody else… Might as well be you!
Have a look at this guy’s story in Saving the Best:
“I married a slut who fucks like a prude.”
Andy, I do agree with you in part. Too much overt concern (i.e. asking) about a woman’s sexual past is indeed demonstrating lower value. Men whom women consider Alpha, the men that women already have a mental impression of, don’t overly concern themselves with women’s sexual pasts because those men have multiple options going.
On some level of consciousness women know that if what he can glean from interacting with her about her sexual past is off-putting to an Alpha he’ll simply eject and move on to a better prospect. An Alpha mindset is often very minimalist, blunt and direct, but there are aspects of interacting with women that come as a default for a man who is his own Mental Point of Origin. One of those unspoken aspects is a self-understanding that he has options (or can generate more) and this is manifested in his indifference to a woman’s long term sexual suitability. If she doesn’t enter his Frame, to his satisfaction, he moves on to the next prospect with very little communication.
However, we weren’t discussing non-exclusive dating/fucking; we’re discussing making an investment in a woman we’re vetting for our own parental investment. When you consider the all-downside risks a man must wager on that investment it behooves him to be his most particular about that woman’s sexual past and the consequences that YOU will be burdened with if you don’t vet wisely.
Most men (myself included at the time) have very sparse prerequisites when it comes to their considering a woman for marriage or even an LTR. This lack of insight is the result of a constant battery of shame and preconditioning by the Feminine Imperative that tells men any requisites they would have of a woman for marriage are ‘passing judgement’ on her character. He should consider himself “lucky” that any woman would have him for a husband (or “put up with him”) and his concerns about her are shameful, typically male character flaws on his part.
Consequentially men rarely permit themselves the luxury of putting their own considerations above that of a potential mate.
Vetting
If you asked a woman whether she would be wary of marrying a man who was a recovering alcoholic or a cleaned up heroin addict she’d probably disqualify him as a marriage prospect from the outset. And were she to go ahead and marry him anyway with full disclosure of his past addictions, would we be sympathetic with her if he were to relapse and she to bear the brunt of his past indiscretions?
Now suppose that woman married this former addict, but due to his being offended about her prying into his past, she was ignorant of his old addictions. She has her suspicions, but society tells her it’s not her purview to hold him accountable for anything that happened in his past.
He’s moved on and so should she, right? Any lingering consequences from his addictions (such as a DUI, criminal record or his unemployability) shouldn’t be held against him, nor should she judge him, nor should she consider those consequences whatsoever when she’s assessing his suitability for marriage now.
In fact, she should feel ashamed to even consider his past with regard to her feelings about who he is. Her judgementalism only points to her own character flaws.
Now, would we praise that woman for “following her heart” and marrying him? Would we hold her accountable for the decision to marry him if he relapses?
Reverse the genders and this scenario is precisely why women become so hostile when men even hint at ‘judging’ women’s past sexual decisions. There is a very well established operative social convention that the sisterhood will all unanimously get behind; and that is the ruthless shaming of men who would ask any questions about any woman’s sexual past. This is the degree of desperation that women feel during the Epiphany Phase when they acknowledge men becoming aware of their long term sexual strategy.
They understand that, in their Epiphany Phase, the clock is ticking down to zero. That’s the cause of a lot of anxiety. They are just beginning to understand that their marriageability (Beta Bucks) now conflicts with their previous short-term mating strategy (Alpha Fucks). As I detailed in Betas in Waiting, women of this age cannot afford to have their short term sexual strategy count against them at a time when they are at their most necessitous of what that Beta can provide towards her long term security.
Again, on some level of consciousness, women understand that were the ignorant Beta she’s decided to marry (start a family with or help her raise her illegitimate children with) becomes aware of what she did in her sexual past he too might expect that same degree of sexual performance. The performance she reserved for the men she perceived as Alpha and freely gave to them.
Women must keep the details of that past secret and obscured. So grave is this anxiety that men must be punished for having the temerity to be curious about it. It is vitally important because a woman’s capacity to bond with a man is reduced with every new sexual partner. Every new sexual partner is a potential Alpha to be widowed by, but the man who marries her must be kept ignorant of those men if she is to secure his resources and his parental investment.
This social convention operates on absolving women’s past indiscretions by redefining them as a period of learning who she would become. It was her “journey of self-discovery” and she’s “not that person” any more. Cleverly enough this is exactly the same convention and same rationale of women who divorce their husbands later in life to “take the journey of self-discovery” of Eat, Prey, Love she passed up when she was younger.
Knowing this, it is also vitally important for men to keep women’s dualistic sexual strategy in mind at every age of her maturity.
Lets not forget the advice of Sheryl Sandberg here:
“When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”
― Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead
Open Hypergamy is triumphantly crowed about when women are at their SMV peaks, and sometimes again once that woman has secured her long-term provider or divorced him, but when a woman is in her Epiphany Phase, when she’s anxious and frustrated in securing her own long term provisioning, that is when she will fall back on the social convention that shames men for their own awareness of the same Open Hypergamy they would otherwise flaunt for him.
So, now that we understand the latent purpose of this social convention, let me explain to every gentleman reading – vetting a woman’s sexual past is not just your prerogative, but an absolute imperative to the health of any future relationship you hope to have with her. When you consider the dire risks you are essentially setting yourself up for – risk no woman will EVER acknowledge or appreciate – the single most important thing you can do is vet that woman’s sexual past.
That doesn’t mean you make weak, DLV, overt inquiries about her past. It means you subtly, covertly and discretely pick up on the many cues and tells she will reveal that past with. Most men would rather use a direct approach to this, and while there’s merit to that, it’s far better to do your vetting by drawing out freely offered information. It’s much more honest and reliable. Once you go the direct route the jig is up and she will play the role she thinks you expect from her, not the honest one you need to make your determinations.
Sex is the glue that holds relationships together. It’s the height of irony that a woman would place so high a priority on her own sexual experiences while in her SMV peak yet completely disqualify that importance when she gets to the phase where it becomes a liability to her. As a man it is vitally important for you to know whether you’ll be her apex Alpha lover or if your burden of performance will be measured against the ghosts of Alpha men from her sexual past – all while you endure the stresses and joys of raising children with her.
@FoolMeNoMore YaReally is about hooking up, not unhooking up, but, hey, if he wants to hit this pitch, take a swing “She’s nearing menopause though, so I’m not sure how much sex drive she would have for anybody else” As you’ve seen this is actually a danger point, and sometimes they go feral for a bit. It is as if the body knows it last chance for the eggs, and they go sperm hunting. If you wait it out (the kids, the kids) things will return to the dry almost sexless one hole marriage you have had in recent years.… Read more »
“Idiot will be posting how s/he wants to hug you.”
Enter Chester A. Riley, stage right.
@Rollo: http://therationalmale.com/2013/02/26/the-crying-game/ You should make an update on this. That essay still “sounds” to me as if women crying would be an indication of some sort of emergency one could have avoided with better understanding of her overt means. While I don’t think you believe this or want to give such a message, some man with less experience might get such an idea. We should even try a typology of female crying. A women may cry as an overt means of manipulation, which could happen to get what she wants or/and as a test. She could really cry out of… Read more »
@Ben, yeah in the heat of the moment, I said that cause I’ done. If kids weren’t in the picture, I’d be laughing at all this right now knowing I’d next her with the quickness and get serious ass on the regular. Not punishing myself, just want to post this so other dudes know two things:
1. Always Be Gaming
2. Always Be Vetting
Good. Go get some strange.
“‘A key that can open many locks is called a master key, but a lock that can be opened by many keys is a shitty lock.’”
It’s funny because if MGTOWs and PUAs would ACTUALLY study what each group is teaching instead of proclaiming judgements based on stereotypes or bad experiences, they would find that they actually have a lot of very similar goals and mindsets that overlap…both groups have an ideal outcome of “my life and my happiness is my primary focus and a woman who’s too much trouble doesn’t get to be a part of that” There’s no overlap at all. When people speak of MGTOW, they usually mean not some sort of movement but a Western phenomenon, namely that single men are, on… Read more »
@hoellenhund2
Can you show one example where PUAs are saying “put up a fight and make sacrifices for the common good”, since PUAs generally say fuck the common good
@hoellenhund2 I never looked at it like that, well, not to that extent. Food for thought. This is a trend that has begun to show itself in places outside the West too, which is why people should debate the reasons for it here due to its immensity and due to not many people looking at the issue through a red pill lens.
I view the MGTOW as a mental issue like PTSD, but in a different form. Stress factors on men like not having purpose, not setting goals and achieving them, not getting girls, or not have any “man spaces,” ect… I could go on. It could be one thing or a combination of them. Just like traumatic disorders it creates a reaction. Think about it. We are here forced to the Internet for us to talk to like minds, bullshit, and have a man space to help each other. In our modern world we can’t tell what men we can trust… Read more »
asdgamer, yeah, i’m far above average. Average face, way above in fitness, wealth, style, and charm. I’m very social, and can read people well. I have very little AA for up to HB7’s. Epic AA after that though. High IQ, but not socially retarded. “You can get your wife to want to fakk you. It’s not that hard. Keep track on the calendar and let your wife know. Turn her down for sex when she tries to instigate it. Be playful, playful, and playful with your wife. When your wife throws loyalty tests at you, make sure that she feels… Read more »
“Stress factors on men like not having purpose, not setting goals and achieving them, not getting girls, or not have any “man spaces,” ect…” I have and do all of those things, out in the real world, and yet I go my own way. Indeed, it is because I have and do those things that I go my own way. I have a life. I suspect there is something wrong with your conception of MGTOW. It has nothing to do with the hopeless dweebs who can’t even say “Hi” to the girl ringing up their Cheetos. It is simply about… Read more »
“Ever see guys that have t shirts tucked into their cargo shorts and whit tube socks under their sandals? ”
I prefer button downs and my socks are black, no offence taken.
“I am open to any suggestions guys, really.”
Go your own way, as fast as you can run.
If women aren’t screwed up we can always count on attention whoring betas. Check the link out.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/10/12/rapper-shot-head-immediately-takes-selfie-video-graphic-content/
@ YaReally FR: 1. Asked HB8 waitress to dance and she begged off, saying that she wanted to watch a playoff game. We discussed her team and the playoffs briefly. She said she’d come find me after the game was over. Didn’t happen. Background: It’s possible that I’ve ignored her in the past. I haven’t paid much attention to waitresses and I’m trying to fix that. She could have hurt feelings. I chat up and flirt with one of the bartenders and have social proof. I cold approach all the time and go out solo and have lots of friends… Read more »
Itsasecret
She, him or whatever it is…..is just another troll. And as all trolls before, is not contributing anything of substance, reason or positive influence. All of this trolls comments are centered around self aggrandizement and false claims of self acceptance. This troll is projecting its false claims here attempting to reinforce those false claims to him or herself.
In sad news, my brother-in-law posted a picture of himself wearing a dress on Facebook.
He is heterosexual and about to head into college…just…very….feminist…
@theasdgamer
What’s the objective? I know you are running dread and like dancing, and female attention, but are you trying to hook up? If not, how far do you want to take it before you bail? If you are trying to hook up, are you trying to get a set of plates?
CaveClown, What your wife said about starting the relationship with no security is eerily similar to the attitude that my ex finally revealed after years of marriage. She said that she felt like she won the lottery when I asked her to marry me. But in the back of her mind, she always thought I would leave her someday… WTF?? I was absolutely stunned when she finally revealed this information to me. When you think about it, going into a marriage with that mindset almost dooms it to fail. There were many other problems, but that insecurity on her part,… Read more »
” . . . that insecurity on her part, as much as anything, contributed to the demise of the marriage.” “When you think about it, going into a marriage with that mindset almost dooms it to fail.” Oh, I don’t know. It’s a default state of dread which can lead to positive behaviours to keep the marriage, but . . . . . . that insecurity, combined with adopting behaviours to fulfil the prophesy are the essential indicators of BPD. It’s the conflicting nature of the fear and the behaviour that makes the crazy. I love you, go away. I… Read more »
“I love you, go away. I hate you, don’t leave me.”
My wife in a nutshell.
Looking back i did see the “default state of dread” in her from the start. In my blue pill fog I took it to mean that I was important to her. That I had high value to her. I didn’t see the other crazy side of that though.
I would guess that BPD is a product of hypergamy and that it’s a system designed to keep men around that otherwise would not commit to them.
They lure you in looking like a unicorn…
…then they use that perception to manipulate and use.
@Cave – BPD is a serious mental disorder which usually has it’s onset in adolescence. It’s not a by-product of hypergamy.
Has she gotten any help? It seems the prognosis for BPD under treatment is pretty good. You seem to be very torn about leaving, perhaps an ultimatum is in order? Get treatment and see if she can stabilize? It’s also so that many BPD sufferers have other problems like anxiety and depression.
@ redlight
All kinds of options with game. Compliance tests. Short makeout sessions. Doing platonic activities together. Social flirting games like grabass. Learning to be more playful. Doing game just for the fun of it.
My book is my mission.
@ Cave Clown
Your wife is insecure and may have given up. She needs to feel like she’s special. And beautiful. You all need more rapport. Common interests like traveling, camping, dancing, etc.
@theasdgamer
your unwillingness to fully escalate will show up in your subcomms, making this pretend PUA exercise pointless, aside from whatever fun you derive from it. In other terms you are a cunt tease
Get treatment and see if she can stabilize? A little side note about BPD: most shrinks will not touch it for a couple reasons. First, the goal for the patient is not to get treatment. It’s to manipulate yet another person successfully. This makes it possible for a therapist to think they’re making progress for months, then suddenly realize they’ve been twisted in a knot by the patient. Second, you have to have two people in the room so that you’re never alone with them, making it prohibitively expensive. BPD patients will find a way to make you an abuser… Read more »
I would guess that BPD is a product of hypergamy and that it’s a system designed to keep men around that otherwise would not commit to them. I also think BPD is some kind of female “game” to attract men that would not commit otherwise. Problem is: it’s not good for you and not good for her. kfg is probably right about that dread. Her fear of not being able to lock you down was probably why she married you in the first place. If you take away that dread, you take away some foundation of the relationship. I don’t… Read more »
@Caveclown: I’m not an expert but it looks like you may need to treat most of the tests your wife is giving you as comfort tests rather than as shit tests. She apparently has low self-esteem.
You wrote above that you think your wife is a female version of a nerdy engineer. Maybe she is autistic – it can manifest quite differently in females than in males, and is often accompanied by self-esteem issues.
BTW, if Cave’s wife was BPD, wouldn’t she be giving him porn-star quality sex occasionally?
Here’s a long one, but I want to make sure everyone who does FRs is on the right track. Not picking on you, theasdgamer but your Field Report is a good example of an FR that’s hard to really help with. So no offense but I’m going to use parts of it as a learning tool for everyone (as well as general trends I’ve seen in FRs these days). In a Field Report we care about what exactly did you DO, and how exactly did you DO it, and what was the OUTCOME and what did you do in response… Read more »
It’s clear that betting on modern women is a surefire way to lose, so why bother vetting? Gender relations are a disaster. There doesn’t seem to be any way to win if you want anything more than sex, so who cares? Just throw in the towel already and accept it for what it is. Sure, there’s no way that a society can function this way indefinitely, but I’m not particularly worried about the long term health of western societies. It’s too far gone and I’m done worrying about it or hoping for the turning point or light at the end… Read more »
“Has she gotten any help? It seems the prognosis for BPD under treatment is pretty good. You seem to be very torn about leaving, perhaps an ultimatum is in order? Get treatment and see if she can stabilize? It’s also so that many BPD sufferers have other problems like anxiety and depression.” She has gotten help. She quits it everytime. The prognosis for treating BPD is very poor actually. She is currently under an ultimatum to fix it, I have divorce paperwork in the works. She has severe anxiety and depression. “Your wife is insecure and may have given up.… Read more »
Your real problem is, you like her? That’s a tough one.
@Cave,
You need to ask yourself, are you being manipulated right now? Is she working her magic to make you feel sorry for her? Are you sorry for her? Is that a good reason to stay married?
As an outsider I just don’t see how could you possibly justify staying married to a BPD.
Reading that @yaReally post about field reports is really inspiring. Shit man, I really wish I had found game before marriage + kids. I honestly feel more thirsty to learn the art than to fuck the hotties… What to do!?!?! Can I really justify my life and death knowing I could be learning this, and consciously choosing not to…
I need to game this marriage to the point that I can game outside of marriage… Yay Backwards Game!
“You need to ask yourself, are you being manipulated right now?”
Given she is BPD, he was being manipulated, is being manipulated, and will be manipulated as long as he is with her. There is no fix (so an ultimatum for a fix is ridiculous) but therapy can reduce tendencies, though as seen they hate it. In RP terms, they can’t consistently exist in your frame.
“They can’t consistently exist in your frame”
It’s funny how some things can hit me as a huge eye opener, like this did. I knew this, but never put it in those words.
Why do I keep doubting myself and my frame than?
Fuck I hate drama.
@YaReally
“your dick could’ve been a replacement for that vibrator”
this is true except he doesn’t want to fuck any of them
Andy, don’t be a douche bag.
Here I’ll fix it for you.
“I need to game this marriage to the point that I can game inside of this marriage… Yay Game!”
Game is fungible. And there is nothing wrong with marriage as long as there is nothing wrong with it. I already spoke about this earlier. But then again you might not have been paying attention on the week-end.
http://therationalmale.com/2015/10/07/red-pill-parenting-part-i/comment-page-2/#comment-121877
Augustus CaveClown, What your wife said about starting the relationship with no security is eerily similar to the attitude that my ex finally revealed after years of marriage. She said that she felt like she won the lottery when I asked her to marry me. But in the back of her mind, she always thought I would leave her someday… WTF?? Divorced parents would be my guess. One of the ugly sides of divorce that doesn’t get much attention is how it trains the amygdala of any children; the event hurts them a lot, the amygdala is part of the… Read more »
I disagree. Marriage gives her some big security and comfort and even a lot of power. The question is: what do you get for that investment (and cannot get “cheaper” by other means)? And remember: “she stays with me” is the worst of all possible answers.
Can you show one example where PUAs are saying “put up a fight and make sacrifices for the common good”, since PUAs generally say fuck the common good Read any PUA forum, Roosh’s neomasculinist agitprop, Alpha Game, Return of Kings and so on, The overall narrative is always the same. “Our society is fucked up due to feminism, but ultimately men are to blame for it because they failed to stop it. Women are acting in horrible ways only because all those beta and omega losers let them to. Once we succeed in making them internalize Game, women will fall… Read more »
@hoellenhund2, I more or less agree with what you’re saying about MGTOWs. It’s exactly why I’ve never blown them off wholesale, I think they’re just responding the best way they know how to deal with what’s in their face every day. When I was at the MiD conference I made of point of illustrating how all Red Pill men are in one way or another ‘going their own way’ because that RP awareness always prompts a new way of dealing with intersexual dynamics. Even guys who reject TRP can’t go back to their Blue Pill way of thinking as they… Read more »
@Caveclown,
“Why do I keep doubting myself and my frame then?”
Because she doesn’t “just get it”.
Why does Rollo say that frame is not power? Same reason you are doubting yourself.
I think you are doing remarkably well under the circumstances. The fact that you are here talking about it is great.
Indeed the problem is that BPD is as you say well know for not responding to “treatment” or therapy. It is an extreme behavioral tendency, not a psychological “disease” like bipolar or schizophrenia that can be medicated.
@CaveClown Why do I keep doubting myself and my frame than? Because that’s exactly how the disorder works. She constantly works to disrupt the frame of everyone around her through guilt, self-doubt (gas lighting), and other forms of manipulation. It’s why I say your only hope is to put as much distance between you two is possible. You need it to recalibrate your own view of yourself, otherwise she’ll continue to undermine it. Never mind bringing her in to your frame while you can’t even get yourself in your frame. Between that and the fact that the first person to… Read more »
Meh, the HTML code got fucked up, Whatever. The first sentence was not from me.
@lh
I’m saying if Andy has a good marriage, why look elsewhere? If the marriage or other woman sucks, then look elsewhere. Of course, I’m biased toward marriage with a good woman.
Her parents are still together. Every woman in her family is nuts though. Bi polar, BPD, attempted suicides, full hospital commital type stuff.
Dad is weak weak weak
@Clown From experience.. it’s an extremely tough row to hoe. Those suggesting that therapy will help are incorrect if BPD is actually the problem. BPD women are masters of facade, manipulation, and charm. They are also ‘always’ looking for the causes.. outside of themselves. They will work very hard to have the therapist bless them as “ok”, so they can return to their world and continue to blame their surroundings and you.. anything but themselves. The doc may tell them they are BPD, which then becomes a crutch and an excuse. There is seldom a BPD who is cured, if… Read more »
@CaveClown And while you’re stuck dealing with her, I’ve found the best way to deal with any manipulator is simple: deny them information. Make all interactions involve your poker face and the barest minimum of words. Try to keep communications remote (text, email, maybe phone calls) to reduce the number of reads they can get on you. Enter each interaction with a specific goal in mind, and if denied your goal, end the interaction. Never make threats. They leak information by revealing your weak position. Instead simply take actions you have planned to force things forward and retreat if things… Read more »
Hey TuffLuv, how ya doing?
I understand your bias. But my point is: in a marriage it may even be more necessary to cheat or abuse her if you want her affectionate and wet. And then you got to ask: why?
Cave has the skinny on treating BPD. Along with ASD (psycopathy) and NPD it is generally considered untreatable and too dangerous for the therapist in any case. They view therapy as a game, that they don’t intend to lose. They will often become expert psychologists themselves in order to better game the therapist. If they can’t game a particular therapist they will quit. They may go shopping for a therapist they can game. They have no interest in “getting better, ” no matter how they may plead that they do. That pleading is just a matter of talking softly while… Read more »
That’s good stuff on BPD, thank you.
@SJF
doing great… almost got the bitch completely off my back.. broke for the moment, but happy and on the way back up.
I don’t intend to stop until I am far higher than I was when I fell.
kids are fine.
thanks for asking.
“My advice is, if you eject.. eject hard.. leave no trace of a relationship between you and her.”
This is the advice my divorce lawyer gave me, with the addition that it should done fast as well. “You need to get out of the house now and we’ll worry about the legal aspects after.” *
The second biggest mistake I ever made was waiting two more years, “for the children,” to take the advice.
No contact – none at all, as fast as you unreasonably can.
“But my point is: in a marriage it may even be more necessary to cheat or abuse her if you want her affectionate and wet. ” I call BullShit on that. Marriage and any LTR is certainly much harder than STR’s. Better to be good at something than have to cheat and abuse the other because you can’t keep up. Sorry, hard work to be better never discouraged me. It is pretty apparent by what YaReally and Tyler are saying is that they see a lot of pussies asking for help on Game, but wanting it to be easy and… Read more »
Game is fungible. And there is nothing wrong with marriage as long as there is nothing wrong with it. @SJF I don’t know what I said that was douchy. Anyway, yes, I have a good marriage. Maybe I’m just having a mini mid-life crisis… But I’m not just saying this shit without prior thought. Here’s a breakdown of my current thinking. 2 Sides. First, the sex side. I don’t know how old you are, and I don’t know how old your wife is, but I’m looking down the road. What happens @ 50? 50 years old. I don’t care how… Read more »
You obviously haven’t read nearly enough of my fundamentals. Start here:
http://therationalmale.com/the-best-of-rational-male-year-one/
@Andy, also read these:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/09/relationship-game-a-primer/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/23/relationship-game-wife-sex/
@SJF:
The essential problem for the professional PUA coach is that most of your clients are not those who can pass triage, but you can’t send them away because you need their money.
This is an issue that was probably recognized before the actual invention of money. There are spiritual schools, particularly in the east, where the prime directive is that the teacher must earn his living from a “regular job” and never charge a cent for his teachings, in order to keep the teaching independent of commercial interest.
On the other hand there is this:
http://www.counter-currents.com/2014/09/the-question-of-female-masochism/
If I stay with her much longer, I’ll be the crazy one.
I am not living up to my potential.
Cave Clown Her parents are still together. Every woman in her family is nuts though. Bi polar, BPD, attempted suicides, full hospital commital type stuff. I do not wish this to seem like piling on, but part of the vetting process surely involves finding out what other women in her gene line are like. Whether BPD tendencies are inherited or not, this should have been a red flag. Years ago I was chatting up a cashier on a college campus who was reasonably cute, and happened to notice under her copper bracelet a scab on her wrist. Sideways cut, in… Read more »
@Rollo: I suggest that you put those 2 links you replied to Andy with (and any other specific to LTR / marriage) in a compilation, like you’ve done with your best ofs.
They are very relevant but I didn’t know about them so far (I started with the Best ofs, then 1st book, and been trying to keep up with new posts).
“If I stay with her much longer, I’ll be the crazy one. I am not living up to my potential.” Your lawyer is giving you advice to protect your assets, because that’s his job. I am giving you advice to protect your sanity. Somewhere in there there is a line where the assets are simply not worth protecting, because your ability to acquire new assets outside of the relationship will exceed the value of the assets you are protecting. There is also the old joke that the reason divorce costs so much is because it’s worth it. Coming out on… Read more »
Anon reader,
I should of vetted better. You can pile on, it’s all good man, I need to hear it.
Blue pill love is blind…
Andy, I’m in my fifties. My wife is 50. She’s been +3 SMV to me (+2 since I worked on it this past year. I’ve always pegged her at no worse than HB8. So that makes me work harder (where have I heard that before?). She is worth it. She’s peri-menopausal but she is not wrinkly (at least not on the body. The face ones I do Botox on her myself–heheh she’s smooth there). At this point in time there is not another woman that I would prefer to have. I want her. “Second, Game. I’m not an expert on… Read more »
I can vouch for this.
Kfg,
I have a true abundance mentality with money. It comes, it goes. Whatever, it’s all good. Assets can be replaced.
Apparntly I don’t have that mindset with women.
Its easier to have that mindset when you have experienced abundance, like I have with money. I’ve never had that with women. I’ve never put in the work to have abundance with women though either.
Rollo, I have to disagree with game-wife-sex. I’ve done take away on plenty of things. My wife really really craves physical affection and to some degree attention when talking. There are times when sex is lacking and I’ve taken away those things and she has definitely noticed. It didn’t backfire on me, but she would comment at some point, “is there someone else?”. I would respond, “Should there be?” etc with come backs… … she never fucked me or gave me a blow job…. she just got super insecure. Did we have sex? Yes, but it wasn’t quality. On any… Read more »
I’m guessing I’m a good deal older than most of the readers here (late 50s). So I’m wondering how the vetting process works as women (and men) age? She: early 50s. Nice kids from an amicable divorce. Seems emotionally stable. Very low N-count, sweet but no pushover. Struggles a little to pay the bills. Never asks for money or favors but accepts them when offered. Any suggestions as to how the vetting process is adjusted at my age?
My wife just texted me. One of her five cats was just discovered to have gotten run over by a car. (I was going to remind her this morning that I love her in spite of the cats not because of them. Although I didn’t because I don’t actually know when I have ever told her I love her)
And she just had back surgery and PIV has been off the table for two weeks.
It’s always something. I learned that from farming. Adapt and make your hurdles seem small by your mastery over multiple things.
Andy – you will never love your wife or ANY woman the same again. It will take time, but that feeling of lovelessness passes. And it is replaced with a love based on reality, not some Disney fairytale crap. To me love isn’t a feeling, its how I act towards my wife that demonstrates love. The feeling “love” is useless without proper action, so I place very little value in the feeling at all.
Rollo saying “I can vouch for this.” means I have showed him photo’s of her via Email.
Also my buddy Scribblerg has seen what she looks like.
I qualified myself to them like George Costanza with the wife picture, rather than go on and on here with my abilities to dominate and throttle her.
@Robert What?: Despite the preponderance of relative youth here, there are a number of us older men. At least a couple are pushing 80. How I would vet that woman is easy: I wouldn’t even see her. She would be invisible to me as a woman. She would be something that I needed to maneuver around or check out my groceries. So I will answer your question with a question: why are you even considering a post menopausal, divorced woman with kids as “relationship material”? I can see perfectly well what’s in it for her, but what the hell is… Read more »
You should think about why I triggered you, SJF.
” . . . the more militant MGTOWs go so far as to entirely disqualify the Alpha / Beta paradigm for men, yet they’ll completely get behind women’s Hypergamy and the AF/BB sexual strategy dynamic.”
Enter John the Other, stage progressive left.
“Reverse the genders and this scenario is precisely why women become so hostile when men even hint at ‘judging’ women’s past sexual decisions.” Decoding the Matrix often involves the mere rearranging of the genders and gender-specific issues in a statement. With your hypothetical situation, if there was an blatant effort by men across the entire spectrum of society to shame any woman who questioned a man’s past concerning alcohol/drug abuse, the logical conclusion would be that an alarming amount of the men, regardless of their background, have had alcohol/drug abuse problems in their past and are terrified of how this… Read more »
I thought about it and I know why you triggered me, LH.
you said: “in a marriage it may even be more necessary to cheat or abuse her if you want her affectionate and wet.”
That triggered the emotion that I would rather command admiration and respect as well as desire than demand it by “cheating and abusing” as a married man game tactic.
I think if you keep hammering the marry a slut meme you will have men looking only for that. I know in my case my wife had only been with one other man before me. What you aren’t warning them about is something far worse than the slut – the frigid woman. I’ve experience both. Sluts are alot easier to air out. Frigid women can fake some sexual things until they feel they have what they want (two kids in my case) and then the ice age hits. I don’t see any real discussion here or elsewhere about that.
Isn’t commanding demanding it while giving her a hard push-pull rollercoaster is what sparks genuine desire, urgency to feel close?
@dvdivx: “I don’t see any real discussion here or elsewhere about that.”
Dude, that’s the central theme of this entire website, as well as a subreddit.
@Rollo I have read those. Very useful of course. The thing is, when I watch those RSD guys. There is something that is going on there that goes way beyond body language and saying the right thing at the right time. I don’t want to say telepathy, but that’s basically what it looks like. I want that. @SJF I want to push the boundaries. If I can successfully pull off a pLTR from a previous LTR frame while keeping the wife happy, why the fuck wouldn’t I? I mean how many people in this world have successfully pulled that off?… Read more »
@dvdivx : after reading more of the articles, I think a great deal of the perspective here is that only a tiny minority of women really are “frigid” regardless of circumstances, and that in most cases frigidity is mostly due to the specific circumstances (namely, it is a response to their husband not being sufficiently alpha). I think there actually are some asexual people out there (both genders), but I think RP is correct that this is fairly rare. If you haven’t, go read “Saving the best” (linked at the start of this blog post). Also, even low N women… Read more »
“The thing is, when I watch those RSD guys. There is something that is going on there that goes way beyond body language and saying the right thing at the right time.”
Yes, doing so without thought, because it is simply part of your nature.
“I don’t want to say telepathy, but that’s basically what it looks like. I want that.”
Step One: Empty your damn teacup.
Step Two: Listen and watch.
Step Three: Practice.
Andy – “If I can successfully pull off a pLTR from a previous LTR frame while keeping the wife happy, why the fuck wouldn’t I? I mean how many people in this world have successfully pulled that off?” If you can do it, balls out! Do keep in mind that the deal you made up front probably didn’t include extra women for you on the side. Nothing says the wife has to accept your terms for a contract renegotiation, and if so it leaves you in the position of divorce or having her completely shut you down. Personally if I’m… Read more »
It’s one thing if she “saved her best” for you it’s another if there was no best. It’s a different thing when she never rode anything or anyone and there was no carousel. That she faked her best until done popping out kids and then the arctic blast commences. You can unfreeze the arctic so to speak at the cost of having any feelings towards her at all. When your wife looks at you and knows you have about as much sympathy towards her as a shark the thawing starts but by then you just want nothing to do with… Read more »
@dvdivx, my first question would be how sexual was she with the only other guy she was with? As I said it may be a question of dealing with an Alpha Widow and you were the Plan B guy.
“You can unfreeze the arctic so to speak at the cost of having any feelings towards her at all. When your wife looks at you and knows you have about as much sympathy towards her as a shark the thawing starts . . .”
You can see and describe the truth accurately. Why are you blind to its explanation when it’s lying right in front of you?
“Dude, that’s the central theme of this entire website, as well as a subreddit”
I discussed it above and got nonsense about all woman are sexual with “the right guy”. This unicorn, the right guy, will produce sexual desire in lesbians, sexual abuse victims, asexuals, and frigid women. If you aren’t right guy, it’s your fault according this theory, since women can never be defective. Ignoring this we have a good discussion on how BPD women are defective.
@redlight, you’re turning ‘right guy’ into an absolute and a liability. Don’t think of it as a character you have to live up to and if you don’t you bear the fault. Yes, if you’re the ‘right guy’ your sexual abuse girl will be sexual for you. I’m not sure you’d actually want to be that right guy, but there you go. Frigid woman, same story. If you represent that woman’s ideal of optimized Hypergamy, in the right place at the right time, you’re the right guy. Lesbians, read Sexual Fluidity: http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/01/sexual-fluidity/ Lesbians are either looking for the right guy,… Read more »
I’d say the only real warning signs – no initializing sex. Complains about pain during sex afterwards. At one point she suggested I should just go get a hooker if I wanted sex. At the time I was dealing with a rather serious heart problem (my heart would stop beating for extended periods of time 15-45 seconds) and her only other advice was that I not see a doctor but get life insurance instead. After I had lost weight and gained about 20-30 pounds of muscle over a few years of training (helps if in the past you were chemically… Read more »
She doesn’t consider you Alpha. Simple as that.
What’s really comical about anti-MGTOW asshats is that they give really sharp explanations for the MGTOW phenomenon. PUAs are actually rather candid about the diminishing returns on the kind of beta male investment they call for. They discuss how average female quality is dropping even in supposed paradises like Poland and the Ukraine, how the Western legal environment is becoming even more hostile to men, how feminist political-cultural hegemony is so absolute that its cultural commissars even have free time and excess energy to have ideological catfights with each other about things like transgenderism. They correctly observe that the average… Read more »
It is completely possible that a woman is not into her man, and would not be into any man ever. But not likely. The simplest explanation us usually right. Dvdirx the freeze thaw cycle you describe sounds like my wife. I know though that if a man came along that pushed the right buttons for her, she would be gone. Even being BPD. She would fall into his frame I’m sure. What that man looks like though I have no idea, I just know it is not the guy in the mirror. It has taken me a long time to… Read more »
@dvdivx : I may be in a similar situation to yours. The very real danger in such a situation is that you or I convince ourselves that we just got unlucky and got the ice-unicorn. It saves your self-esteem to think that, but it also kills the drive to improve yourself. I haven’t found the “sex videos” of Saving the Best, and I am very confident they don’t exist in my case. “Saving the Best” was still the most chilling post I read since learning about RP, because while I was reading, it evoked the possibility that my wife doesn’t… Read more »
Cosign kfg and Tedd,
“I mean how many people in this world have successfully pulled that off? ”
Certainly not as many as the millions that thought they could get away with it and didn’t have the experience to handle one woman rather than two or a handful of women and went down in flames trying.
I’m not saying your prescription is wrong for you. But many men here are implying that their way is right for others. .We are questioning you guys based on old guy wisdom after watching things for three decades past our 20’s.
The more DVD guy talks, the more I am reminded of my wife. Holy crap.
The likelihood that my ego is trying to protect itself is better than the likelihood that my wife is asexual.
” . . . BPD women are defective.”
They are not, however, frigid. dvdivx has described how his wife is shut down by certain behaviour, but responds to another. His wife is not frigid, he is interpreting her behaviour by undesirable consequences.
He knows what turns her on, but doesn’t want to do it.
If game and other time wasting strategies result in me having sex with someone I have nothing but contempt for then why bother. At this point I just can’t afford to leave financially. Having sex is more than just a physical act you have to at least want to be with that person to some degree. Even hookers and strippers act nice if they want repeat customers. Banging cold bitches is just not something I’m into at my age.
It gets to a point where that branch of MGTOW isolate themselves because “you can’t out Alpha the state” and any interaction with a woman holds the potential of sexual harassment or a false rape accusation.
Doesn’t it, really? Other than that, point taken.
My guess is not much the guy actually begged on his knees to come back, was out of shape and always bought her flowers. On my first date with her I grabbed her breasts and suggested a three way with her friend. When she wanted to move in I told her I don’t do laundry or dishes so she would have to do it. So I don’t think the last guy was very alpha.
“If game and other time wasting strategies result in me having sex with someone I have nothing but contempt for then why bother.”
I have no idea. I wouldn’t. Time is short and women many.
Ironically I forgot the first date she just reminded me later about it. At the time I don’t think I was really giving a crap but since she brought an attractive friend to the first date I thought I’d be nice enough to ask.
“We are questioning you guys based on old guy wisdom after watching things for three decades past our 20’s.”
What am I missing man? Why one woman? Because divorce?
@dvd
“At this point I just can’t afford to leave financially.”
This sounds like she wears the *financial* pants.. if so, you’re probably already in her frame, which is why she disrespects you. The good news, if that’s the case, is you should fare better in the divorce than you would if you were the breadwinner.
If that’s not the case, then bro, you can’t afford to *not* leave. It isn’t gonna get any cheaper than now.
“She doesn’t consider you Alpha. Simple as that.” I don’t think that paradime always works. In some cases the woman just has a low sex drive. Only person who ever guessed my wife’s national origin was European man who had also married and divorced a Japanese woman. Never even said my wife wasn’t American yet he guessed it. There are just some women that don’t like sex or just want it at a very very low rate. Identifing women like that is important because your marriage will die if you don’t. There are men also with low sex drives but… Read more »
No she doesn’t have a job so I’d take it in the shorts in a divorce. Child care alone would kill me. In my state if you are the only breadwinner your hosed. I already did the math. She also doesn’t want to work and unless the kids are old enough not to need daycare I just can’t see how I could even pay for rent, medical coverage or other things.