The Political is Personal

personal

Dalrock had an interesting post this morning – Black Fathers Don’t Matter – that mends nicely with a topic I was poking at in Obesity Culture:

While HHS (Health and Human Services) says any man currently shacking up with mom counts as the father, the Census says any man currently shacking up with mom counts as the father so long as mom says so.  Either way, fathers clearly can’t matter that much to the US government if distinguishing between the actual father and the man currently banging mom isn’t important.

There are other ways we can tell that fathers don’t matter (and therefore Black fathers don’t matter).  Under our current family system fathers are a sort of deputy parent. Just like a sheriff’s deputy serves at the pleasure of the sheriff, a father in an intact family serves at the pleasure of the mother.  Our entire family court structure is designed to facilitate the removal of the father should the mother decide she no longer wants him to be part of the family unit.  How important can fathers really be, when we have a massive and brutal bureaucracy devoted to helping mothers kick them out of the house?

What Dal is pointing out here has a far broader implication than simply how various governments define fatherhood. Many critics of my defining the Feminine Imperative like to think it’s a work in conspiracy. However, as I’ve explained before, there really is no need for a conspiracy; the Feminine Imperative has no centralized power base because feminine-primacy is so ensaturated into our collective social consciousness. It needs no centralization because feminine social primacy is literally part of women’s self-understanding – and by extension men’s understanding of women and what women expect of them.

Thus, on a Hypergamous social scale we see that Protein World’s male focused ad gets no such vandalism. The message is clear – It is Men who must perform, Men who need to change themselves, optimize themselves and strive for the highest physical ideal to be granted female sexual approval. Women should be accepted, respected and expected to inspire genuine desire irrespective of men’s physical ideals.

[…]

On more than a few occasions I’ve made the connection that what we see in a feminine-primary societal order is really a reflection of the female sexual strategy writ large. When we see a culture of obesity, a culture of body fat acceptance and a culture that presumes a natural evolved order of innate differences between the sexes should be trumped by self-impressions of female personal worth, we’re viewing a society beholden to the insecurities inherent in women’s Hypergamy.

A feminized, feminist, ordered social structure is one founded on ensuring the most undeserving women, by virtue of being women, are entitled to, and assured of, the best Hypergamous options by conscripting and conditioning men to comply with Hypergamy’s dictates.

I’m quoting this again here because, in light of Dalrock’s observations, it’s important for men to really understand that the power struggle women claim to be engaged in with men has already been settled on a meta, social scale. When a father is whomever a woman says he is, that’s a very powerful tool of social power leveraging.

  • A father is anyone a woman/mother claims he is
  • A father is legally bound to children he didn’t sire
  • A father is prevented at great legal and social effort from access to DNA testing of children he suspects aren’t his own
  • A father is legally responsible for the children resulting from his wife/girlfriend cuckolding him
  • A father is financially obligated to the support of children that he didn’t sire or he had no power in deciding to sire

These aren’t just examples relating to men’s lack of power in parenting; these are examples of determining the degree of control a man can exercise over the direction of his entire life. From Truth to Power:

Real Power is the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we control the directions of our lives.

The inherent insecurity that optimizing Hypergamy poses to women is so imperative, so all-consuming, to their psychological wellbeing that establishing complex social orders to facilitate that optimization were the first things women collectively constructed when they were (nominally) emancipated from men’s provisioning around the time of the sexual revolution.

Ensuring the optimization of women’s biologically prompted Hypergamy is literally the basis of our current social order. On a socio-political scale what we’re experiencing is legislation and cultural mandates that better facilitate Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks.

Driver had a good comment from the last post that illustrates another aspect of this feminine-power consolidation (emphasis mine):

“All the “feeling good about your body” that a fat woman can muster is NEVER going to be an aphrodisiac or a substitute for having a great body that men are aroused by.”

It’s funny how women are very attracted to a guy who works out, eats rights and takes care of his body but they fully expect men to love them (or be attracted to them) for “who they are” – thin or big. You would think that these overweight women would get the memo by now but women (and more of them) keep getting bigger each year.

Feminine-Primary Social Doctrine is the Extension of Women’s Hypergamy

In a feminine-primary social order women presume, without an afterthought, that they are entitled to an attractive guy who works out and meets or exceeds women’s very stringent and static physical ideal. At the same time they expect an entitlement to absolute control of that attraction/arousal process regardless of, and to the exception of, any influence or difference in men’s control of that process. And they expect this without any thought to meriting it beyond appeals to a nebulous and inflated concept of their personal self-worth.

When we consider the present, ambiguous state of sexual consent laws we begin to understand the latent Hypergamous purpose those laws serve – absolute consolidation of women’s Hypergamous strategies as the motivator of any sexual encounter.

Furthermore, they expect an entitlement, either directly or indirectly, to the material support and provisioning of men for no other reason than they were born female.

Any deviation from this is on the part of  men is met with a cultural reprisal designed to convince or coerce men to accept their inevitable role in providing those entitlements to women. When those social contingencies fail, or become played out, the Feminine Imperative then appeals to legal legislation to mandate men’s compliance to what amounts to women’s social entitlement to optimized Hypergamy.

Legislating Hypergamy

From the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy this amounts to socially shaming men’s sexual imperatives while simultaneously empowering women’s short-term sexual strategies and fomenting men’s societal acceptance of it (i.e. the Sandberg plan for Open Hypergamy). This is further enforced from a legal perspective through consent laws and vague “anti-harassment” legislation to, ideally, optimize women’s hypergamous prospects.

When we read about instances of the conveniently fluid definitions of rape and harassment (not to mention the pseudo-victimhood of not being harassed), this then turns into proposed “rape-by fraud” legislation. Hypergamy wants absolute certainty, absolute veracity, that it will be secured in its optimization. And in an era when the only restraint on Hypergamy depends on an individual woman’s capacity for being self-aware of it, that Hypergamy necessitates men be held legally responsible for optimizing it.

Even the right for women to have safe and legal abortions finds its root in women’s want to mandate an insurance of their Hypergamous impulses. Nothing says “he wasn’t the right guy” like the unilateral power to abort a man’s genetic legacy in utero.

Feminist boilerplate would convince us that expanding definitions of rape is an effort to limit men’s control of women’s bodies – however, the latent purpose of expanding the definition is to consolidate on the insecurity all women experience with regard to optimizing Hypergamy.

The Beta Bucks insurance aspect of Hypergamy is evidenced by cultural expectations of male deference to wives’ authority in all decision making aspects of a marriage or relationship. And once again this expectation of deference is a grasping for assurances of control should a woman’s Hypergamous choosing of a man not meet her expectations. This is actualized covertly under the auspices of egalitarian equalism and the dubious presumptions of support and feminine identification on the part of men.

Beyond this there are of course the ubiquitous divorce, support, child support and domestic violence legalities that grossly favor women’s interests – which should be pointed out are rooted in exactly the same Hypergamous insecurity that her short-term Alpha Fucks mating strategies demand legislation for.

As Open Hypergamy becomes more institutionalized and made a societal norm by the Feminine Imperative, and as more men become Red Pill aware (by effort or consequences) because of it, the more necessary it will become for a feminine-primary social order to legislate and mandate men comply with it.

Going Mainstream

I’ve addressed this before, but I’ve never done politics on TRM. I will never do screeds on race or multi-culturalism or religion on TRM for a very good reason – it pollutes the message.

We now are seeing the results of this pollution as the manosphere is attacked from both sides of the political spectrum.

I’ve given this example before, but if you put Gretchen Carlson and Rachel Maddow on the same show and confronted them with red pill truths and Game-awareness they would eagerly close ranks, reserve their political differences and cooperatively fight for the Feminine Imperative.

This is the degree to which the Feminine Imperative has been saturated into our western social fabric. Catholic women in the Vatican may have very little in common with Mormon women in Utah, but let a Mormon woman insist the church alter its fundamental foundational articles of faith with regard to women in favor of a doctrine substituted by the Feminine Imperative and those disparate women have a common purpose.

That is the depth of the Feminine Imperative – that female primacy should rewrite articles of faith to prioritize women’s interests.

Religious doctrine, legal and political legislation, cultural norms, labor and economic issues; all are trumped by the Feminine Imperative. All have been subverted to defer to the Feminine Imperative while maintaining a default status of victimhood and oppression of women and women’s interests necessary to perpetuate that covert decentralized power base.

It doesn’t matter what world view, ideology or political stripe the opposition holds; men, masculinity and anything contrary to the feminine-primary social narrative will always be a common enemy of the Feminine Imperative, and both liberal and conservative will climb over one another to throw the first punch if it means defending women and defending the feminine social order by proxy.

This is why anything even marginally pro-masculine is vilified in mainstream society. Anything pro-masculine is always an easy, preferred target because it’s so hated, so incorrect, in a feminine-primary context that it can unite people of hostilely opposed political and ideological differences.

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

This is what scares the shit out of critics who attempt to define, contain and compartmentalize the manosphere / Red Pill awareness; it’s bigger than social, racial, political or religious strictures can contain. It crosses all of those constructs just as the Feminine Imperative has co-opted all of those cultural constructs. The feminized infrastructure of the MSM that’s just beginning to take the manosphere seriously enough to be critical are discovering this and trying to put the genie back into a bottle defined by their feminine-primary conditioning.

The idea that one of their own, whether in a liberal or conservative context, is genuinely Red Pill aware and educating others of that awareness is unnerving for the Feminine Imperative that’s already established strong footholds in either ideology.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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10x10
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@Glenn, I agree with many of your points. For me, I see it as the Left having sub-ideologies that are all outgrowths of their core philosophic premises of skepticism, relativism, out-group altruism, egalitarianism, socialism (whatever variant including American welfare-statism), and cultural nihilism. I think of it this way: Multiculturalism/Multiracialism/Civil_Rights – All of this is racial socialism premised on the alleged “white supremacy” inherent to whites. The utopian vision is a “post-race” society where incomes and opportunities are equal for all races. The Left is using a racialized version of Rawls for this; after all you didn’t chose your parents. So,… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@mdavid

Basic biology and evolution know this to be false.

A strong assertion that the rest of your does abso-fucking-lutely nothing to back it up. You break in to a bunch of ranting about the social structures, again prominently displaying exactly the myopia I’m referring to. If you’re going to assert that basic biology and evolution prove that basic biology and evolution are not responsible for psychological and social structures, then you’d damn well better back it up

As is you’re asserting that the effect is the cause. I’m gonna call unconditional bullshit until you can give me some proof.

Sun Wukong
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^ correction “A strong assertion that the rest of your post does…”

Sun Wukong
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@10×10

The Left is EVIL. And feminism is a core part of that movement.

… and this is why politics pollutes the discussion. Vilifying “them” as evil and “us” as good is a fast way to find yourself blinded by extremism. Binary thinking at its absolute bottom of the barrel worst. The extreme left casts the extreme right as “EVIL” as well. You know what the truth is? Both groups are collection of assholes that need to chill the fuck out.

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@Seraph
“I did not want to be presumptuous. It would be kind of like me inviting two drunks to duke it out on your front lawn.”
That Is a good point by its almost like a brawl.
I would take that invite as a gilft.
@Badpainter
Wonderful point thanks for putting that in perspective.

Lone Survivor
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@ RolloTomassi “And we should love and be aroused by women for what’s on the inside and not their appearances, right?” Hey, hey, hey. Hold it right there, hot shot! YOU said that, not me. Men are meant to be functional, that is: – hard body: intended in the past for hunting, fishing and protecting family. Now, intended for family protection. – brains: we are creators, we use our brain to create new stuff and push society for the better – character: a rock solid character is fundamental to make decisions and offer security/stablity to women and children Women are… Read more »

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“Leftism orients around equality” That’s the propaganda, not the reality. Leftism orientates around attaining power using popular movements. “Fascists were social conservatives on steroids, especially the Nazis.” If you want an in depth historical refutation of this, read Liberal Fascism. Cliff Notes version is this… Mussolini admired Communist Theory and thought. His father, I believe, was a socialist, as was Mussolini. However, Mussolini did not go in for all this “International Workers Unite” rhetoric. He had no interest in allying with Slavs, Germans, French, etc. He wanted Italians united for Italy, and rebranded his ideology to separate himself from the… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Lone
That’s a good point. Maybe you can have an Alpha mindset
As well as a grown example of reproductive success.

Just noticing my mindset this morning and it’s becoming far more assertive. Iam beginning to love pain and rejection more. Because they are balanced. You bring up some really great points.
What about alphas who have sex and spread their seed with many women but don’t stay to support them?

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“Civil Society evolves with capitalism and the formation of the modern state. As the counterpart to the power of the state, it is also an independent force. It depends first of all on a system of needs, in which private economic activity plays a primary role. Civil society supposes an individual who has many needs, and it depends on the values of these individuals, their consciences, actions, and their sense of freedom. Individuals are both selfish and citizens interested in public affairs and the community. Lubomir Sochor, a philosopher and political thinker, defines civil society as “the ensemble of suprafamilial,… Read more »

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Rugby, it’s more than that. It is not about rejection. It is about learning to push yourself further than you thought possible. It is about realizing that you can IN FACT become whatever you want to become as long as you are willing to work for it. Mt advice, watch this 7-chapter documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQFRePXMI9M The problem with feminism is that it created 6 generations of men who lost contact with their masculine core. Who learned from their mothers that “you have to be a good boy” and “don’t fight”. The true Red Pill is realizing that and regaining contact with… Read more »

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Comment on child services: This agency has too much power. You think the IRS is a nightmare? This agency should be labeled a terrorist group. They are allowed to collect funds by any means necessary (usually going after the man). They have the authority to suspend your driver’s license, pull your passport, and imprison you. They can, also, send a letter to your bank and pull all of your money out. People don’t believe it until they speak with a dad who is going through the hell. Women don’t want equality…they want more power and control. Loading...

Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Oblivious
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The Red Pill should also be non political because FRONTAL POLITICS ARE THE SEQUELAE to the Phenomenon (hardwired hypergamy, masculine and feminine hardwiring that transcends cultures, nations, continents, ages, the HitlerGruss, Lysenko-ism, genderqueer navel-gazing and Re-education seminars in Room 101). By focusing only on the politics (left right left right – hey it’s a march!), you are looking at the wreckage of the storm, not what caused it. Can social constructs affect the phenomenon? Sure. If you go from scrounging for food to a comfortable agrarian existence where no one starves, that will affect the phenomenon. Attraction based on purely… Read more »

Seraph
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“@Lone, I can’t believe I’m about to do this, but have a look at these links:”

My gut tells me he will refuse to engage. The question is why?

Hmmmm.

Excalibur
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Why are so many men in todays’ society weak feminized males, simps, betas and manginas?

Start with this book:

“The Feminized Male: Classrooms, White Collars and the Decline of Manliness” by Patricia Sexton, published in 1969.

sjfrellc
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“Are you Maypril fooling?”

Sorry Liz, I read the news wrong. Oz got canned from his radio show. “A minute with OZ.”

Rule of Wrist
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Arguing about the differences between communists, socialists and marxists is like arguing about the composition of the stain on your kitchen floor: it’s only a useful discussion insofar as it will help you fight it. Rollo’s (or kfg’s?) point is exactly correct, all of those ideologies are rooted in feminine ideals. They are the method of enforcement and promulgation, not the source, not the WHY those ideologies came into being. The FI is the why. @10×10 You are incorrect. This is a common misconception. Along the political spectrum, it goes like this: -Farthest left: Police state. No or very limited… Read more »

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@sjfrellc

g2-1fa6711f58a0fd01c3c51a0acecc12e4
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Our entire family court structure is designed to facilitate the removal of the father should the mother decide she no longer wants him to be part of the family unit.
Remove his presence, but not his money.

Kyfho Myoba
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@Lone Survivor – I would suggest that your lack of success with women even while jacked and ripped is due to how you present yourself as a sexual partner. Even though you are jacked and ripped if you present yourself as a potential LTR to any degree, you thereby place yourself in the BB category, and, obviously, near the bottom if you don’t have any resources. If, however, you present yourself as an exciting, once-in-a-lifetime, hedonistic, I-know-I’ll-regret-it-later-but-it’s-SO-much-fun-NOW, superfun fucktoy, you’ll get VERY different results. Congruence plays a huge role. If you ask a bunch of women what qualities make a… Read more »

ianironwood
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Firstly, Red Pill is a praxeology, not an ideology. Entangling it with ideologies will only, as Rollo says, dilute the message. Secondly, I would say that the tendency toward collective action/consensus building is endemic to the feminine condition. Women are aggressively social creatures, whereas men are performance-oriented in their natural hierarchies, and resort to collectivism only at need. Women first welcome fellow women formally with openess and a sense of egalitarianism, but the newcomer is soon sorted into the appropriate consensus group and subjected to the same controls as the rest of the consensus. She has a voice, but very… Read more »

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@Rollo “Alpha isn’t about who’s doing the breeding, it’s about who’s doing the fucking”. oH, I forgot that we breed without fucking You are only seeing one part of the picture. Why is fucking important from an evolutionary point of view? Because it allows perpetuation of the species (altrusitic behavior) and perpetuation of individual’s genes (selfish behavior). 120000 years ago, the higher the success or the attractiveness to females = the higher the number of offspring that such male produced. Now, having countraceptives, the higher the attractiveness = the higher the number of fucking. Take a guy who has the… Read more »

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rugby11ljh
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@ianironwood First off I’ve noticed that about myself. Thanks for bringing that up secondly about to read your books. @Lone survivor Would love to meet up sometime for a training session and get my ass handed to me. Out of shape @kyf (Very good point) (Women fuck men other women wanna fuck) would suggest that your lack of success with women even while jacked and ripped is due to how you present yourself as a sexual partner. Even though you are jacked and ripped if you present yourself as a potential LTR to any degree, you thereby place yourself in… Read more »

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@ianironwood

women work idealistically and men work opportunistically.

Very true point. I get the oddest looks from women when we discuss work and I flatly state “I’m a mercenary, not a charity. Employers have to give me a reason to be there, and by ‘a reason’ I mean ‘a stack of cash’.”

Lone Survivor
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@ Kyfho Myoba Agree with you on that. It is to be noted that you can do all that without having a hard-body. Now, one question: why should a man like me (who has a good body and is starting a career in one major Pharma Companies in the world and who could be doing 8000 euro per month in 4 years) should spend energy presenting himself as an hedonistic once-in-a-lifetime guy to women when I can simply pay a prostitute? What is the difference between a hooker and an everyday girl? Please note that I am being pragmatic, result-oriented… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Lone Survivor
“you don’t need to behave, you simply ARE.”
Does that not count as a mindset?

Badpainter
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Lone Survivor – “What is the difference between a hooker and an everyday girl?”

200 hours of community service?

kfg
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“Take a guy who has the body of Charles Atlas (ye olde Charles Atlas for a change), and a Average Muscleless Joe who makes 15000 USD a month. Who is the “alpha”?”

Me.

Lone Survivor
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@Rugby

Rugby, it is a mindset, indeed. But it is not a mindset oriented towards getting pussy, it is one intended for self-improvement and fulfillment. Pussy follows.

Get yourself together and go for a run… it is the first step towards getting back to shape.

Glenn
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@10×10 – You’ll note I’ve not once said the left is evil. They do have a very different moral compass, and one that permits great leeway in the use of political power to pursue justice. I am close to some really hard core leftists and I can tell you that in their personal lives they are good people. I’m not hear to demonize anyone. I’m not even here to talk politics – Rollo doesn’t want to and normally doesn’t and I keep away from it in the main. But if it’s going to be dealt with in such a slapdash… Read more »

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@ Glenn re: Marxism I haven’t read Marx, although Richard Wurmbrand, who survived the Bolshevik invasion of Romania and 14 years of imprisonment and torture and several years of solitary confinement, had some opinions about it. He wrote a book called “Marx and Satan” if that’s any indication of his thoughts about him and his ideas, lol. He was at some guy’s speech somewhere who was promoting communism, and walked up and took the mic out of the guy’s hand. He said “I have a PhD in communism” and proceeded to take his shirt off, showing the massive amount of… Read more »

Rule of Wrist
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@ Kyfho I am uninterested in the consensus opinion of political scientists. Also, it seems the Nolan Chart, while good, is a useful tool to describe the political views of an individual. I was trying to describe where a political system would fall on a spectrum. If you look at it in terms of the Nolan Chart, the 2 extremes would be Police State in the bottom left corner, and Total Anarchy in the top right corner. Both of these are undesirable conditions, and my point still stands that fascism/nazism/statism is not a far right ideology, it is a far… Read more »

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@ Glenn My forte is the personal side of all this. Like I said, I don’t know about politics, but I do know a hell of a lot through firsthand experience about: -mental illness -addiction -social isolation -sexual frustration I’m a cog in the wheel as much as anyone else is. It’s not like I exist outside of my environment. Whatever about me that is genetically unique, okay — but a lot of times I think of myself as a social experiment. How much of use did I really learn in school? If I was running things I’d try to… Read more »

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@Rollo @Lone Survivor, I can rent Lamborghini, doesn’t mean I own it. Yes, it is right. As long as women don’t realize that you do not own it, it will be fine. Now, the uncomfortable question: say you have 500 USD to rent a Lamborghini Gallardo for one day. You can choose to do it for the amusement of driving it and/or picking up girls. If you are going to use the car for the sole purpose picking up and fucking, then pay yourself an escort. If you are going to rent it to enjoy the ride, then your investment… Read more »

Divided Line
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This post is on point. Ask yourself how the current family court system could have developed into the dystopian nightmare that it has become. The answer isn’t to be found in ideological differences that pit the left against the right, but on those things which both sides of the debate agree and which consequently are never brought out into the open to be discussed at all. The whole system is designed to shame, cajole and coerce men into taking care of women. You get two different rationales for one policy and since there is nobody there to provide criticism or… Read more »

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There is a substantial qualitative difference between (1) sex with a woman who is totally turned on by you viscerally, without regard to your car/money/job and (2) sex with a woman who is being paid by you for sex, or a woman who is having sex with you to get a piece of your money spent on her. Those are just very different things, and the difference in quality is not small (the quality of the sex itself). Nothing can compare to monkey sex with a woman who can’t help herself because she’s unbearably turned on by you *viscerally* and… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Softek
That was such a great thing to learn from.
@Lone survivor
Going an a run later just ran into a women however and learning about letting go of my white knight.

Novaseeker
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Indeed

Water Cannon Boy
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“I also think this plays into the hysteria about rape culture. The fear is not so much about rape but about 2nd tier and lower men behaving as though they were top tier. Even if the average men lack polished game just having the same expectations and recognizing/accepting only the same burdens as the best AF men places greater burdens on women to accept responsibility for their choices.”I saw it as trying to control top tier, make them more compliant on demand. And banishing lower tier from even coming to the starting line. Or at least removing them after the… Read more »

Kyfho Myoba
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@Lone Survivor – What is the difference between a hooker and an everyday girl? It’s the difference between Beta Bux and Alpha Fucks. The hooker fucks you because you gave her money. She likes the money, not you. The everyday girl fucks you because you give her the tingles. You’re hawwwt. She doesn’t care if you have money or not (if you present yourself as I described earlier). It’s the difference between transactional sex and validational sex, and as all of us here on The Rational Male know so well, desire cannot be negotiated. I saw a comment somewhere on… Read more »

Divided Line
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It’s actually a shame that more of you haven’t read Marx because, weirdly enough, Marx’s theoretical framework actually provides a pretty elegant and compelling explanation for what the blue and red pills are. As Althusser explained, “ideology is your imagined relationship to your actual conditions of existence.” I can’t think of a better description of the blue pill. An argument could be made that the blue pill was Marx’s “superstructure of belief” which once explained your experience of biological and material reality, or what he called “the material base.” The blue pill was simply yesterday’s superstructure which explained your experience… Read more »

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“The constant strategy if Communist repression, whose central aim was always the establishment of absolute power and the elimination of political rivals and anyone else who had any sort of real power in society, was to attack systematically all the organisms of civil society. Because the aim was a monopoly on power and truth, the necessary targets were all other forces with political or spiritual power.”

Sorry, meant to point out in my original post that this and the text above it was from The Black Book of Communism.

Tom
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This is a complete digression, but I thought I would share it. Sometimes I watch Karen’s older videos and I wonder what she would look like if she grew her hair out. I think…she would be kinda cute. Not a knockout but…kinda cute.

Tom
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@Lone Survivor
SMV is not binary. A musclehead may not always be impoverished and having an MD doesn’t preclude being “yoked.” The goal of maximizing SMV (as I understand it) is about optimizing health, wealth and confidence.
Georges St. Pierre, Dr. Travis Stork and Wladimir Klitschko are paragons of optimized SMV. Your common yoked guido from Jersey will never pull the kind of tail that GSP, Stork and Klitschko can.

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@Glenn Very often political discussions turn into either echo chambers or some high-falutin’ version of, ‘the Left is evil!’ ‘Nuh-uh! The Right is evil!’ This hasn’t happened (much) here, so I’m glad to see that. I’m no scholar of political though or ideology. I plan to read the essay you referenced above simply as a point of pride, and we’ll see if anything takes off from there, but my default position is generally to view political ideas and movements as emergent characteristics of society underpinned by biological incentives and drives. If Marx hadn’t written what he did to spark such… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Oh, and also:

Hope things go well with that girl this weekend!

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Silly of me, I used more than one link.

Glenn, wrote a comment about political stuff to ya above that’s in moderation. Rollo tends to be quick so I imagine it’ll appear soon.

Fredrick Welfare
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The point at issue is not necessarily who fucks more often since it is a moot (undecidable and unprovable) point whether alphas or betas fuck more often in their lifetime. (The quality of a fuck or orgasm is hardly ever addressed since penetration is all that “counts.”) The real issue is the reasons why females select certain males to fuck regardless of whether those males actually inseminate her and regardless of whether she carries to term. Her decision today, given the context of contraception and prophylaxis, is now controlling male behaviors. Thus, males compete with diverse strategies against each other… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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@Frederick welfare
Hugely appropriate
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/05/01/hey-thats-our-trick/

Softek
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I just started reading “The Globalization of Addiction” by Bruce Alexander, the guy who’s responsible for the Rat Park study on addiction that was done back in the late ’70s. “The history of Vancouver suggests, and a broader survey of history seems to confirm, that today’s rising tide of addiction to drug use and a thousand other habits is the consequence of people, rich and poor alike, being torn from the close ties to family, culture, and traditional spirituality that constituted the normal fabric of life in pre-modern times. This worldwide rending of the social fabric ultimately results from the… Read more »

Divided Line
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@ Seraph “If, as you suggest, traditional masculinity is such a threat to the order of those three (thus their hostility to it), then perhaps pushing back through promoting masculinity, under the Red Pill flag, will be enough to undermine all three’s power structures. It will also have the added benefit of creating “social warriors” of our own, but true ones, not faux ones.” What is traditional masculinity though? Because it also entailed being a provider draft horse. The only socially acceptable aspect of traditional masculinity that remains is the beta bux provider. It’s not as if it is an… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Re: Politics…. One thing that is helpful to discussion when politics is forced to enter the discussion is to remember that no single group’s ideas can possibly define your thoughts in perfect detail. And more importantly, that because they cannot do this, any offense felt by someone blasting your “favorite” side is little different than getting upset that someone blasted your favorite baseball team. If those parties can actually describe your feelings, if you absolutely completely agree with everything the Democrats or the Republicans say, then frankly you shouldn’t be allowed to voice an opinion because your opinion is not… Read more »

Divided Line
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@ Forge the Sky “I’m no scholar of political though or ideology. I plan to read the essay you referenced above simply as a point of pride, and we’ll see if anything takes off from there, but my default position is generally to view political ideas and movements as emergent characteristics of society underpinned by biological incentives and drives. If Marx hadn’t written what he did to spark such idealogical fervor, someone else would have written something similar that did.” Don’t be silly. Marx was an evil man who appeared ahistorically and wrote a magic book which billions of people… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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@Jeremy
It’s so great to be wrong
“that there is merit to be found in a multitude of perspectives.”
@Divide Line
“Their is no way back to traditional marriage”
Freaking sad that is. Gonna miss never being in the 50’s
Self surgery
Being out in nature is a gift
Was thinking of this today
Nature=red Society=Blue
http://www.jacklondons.net/Media/to_build_a_fire_print_ver.html

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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The death of traditional marriage is not the worst thing that could happen to masculinity. But it is actually quite bad for civilization, because you only have civilization when most men have reasonable access to sexual success. Without that, you get chaos and war.

Mr T
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@Rollo
I fucking envy your brain and tolerance.
I can see Mrs Tomassi’s love to you.

95% of politics and power are WOMEN(that is beautiful women).

@Glenn
I’m sure when Carl Marks wrote Das Kapital, in the back of his head what he really meant : Das Kapital to fuck beautiful women.

Badpainter
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Divided Line – “This is the whole problem with assuming that the ascendancy of the FI is due entirely to the left and feminism. In reality, a right wing traditionalist conception of masculinity is just as gynocentric as the left and it is equally at fault for the current state of family courts and misandric law generally. They’re just two sides of the same worthless coin.” Not quite. The old order traditional restrictions on men were a method of ensuring consequences for irresponsible behavior. Reckless fucking and generating bastards is unquestionably bad/immoral/wrong when the two people responsible have no capacity… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy

Without that, you get chaos and war.

Which begets a decrease in male population, which reasserts patriarchy due to favorable male:female ratios, which rebuilds society.

Kind of amazing how it works once you step back and look at it.

70'sAntiHero
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The Law of Unintended Consequence (of an overreaching government) has been born out and proven over and over to no avail. Not an inkling or a suspicion. A fucking Law! Milton Friedman won the Noble Prize for this discovery. It is largely ignored with politicians and policy makers. It is the nature of government to become more intrusive and move left. In Coming Apart, Charles Murray intentional left out black america to make clear that the decline in morality and economic opportunity is not only being experienced by minorities but on us all. Our environment is a direct result of… Read more »

sjfrellc
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@ Glenn “Western civilization is in its twilight years. And don’t kid yourself folks, the Dark Ages can come again. We do not have to “progress”. I tell myself this. Why shouldln’t I live in a society in decline? Why not me? And I can’t do a thing about it. I’m a speck of sand on a beach and all this is far more powerful than me.” You do realize that Schadenfreude is your best friend in a declining civilization? You already know that and exhibit it well. At the risk of exhorting your to read one more fricking book,(… Read more »

Divided Line
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@Sun Wukong

It’s like a deer population die-off. The problem though is that in a modern context, war increasingly becomes suicidal World War II killed 60 million people with 1940s technology. Imagine what a 21st century world war would be like.

Sun Wukong
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@Divided Line

Aye, Jeremy noted during our roundtable the other night that the nuclear bomb pretty much eliminated world war as a regulator of male population. Once he plopped that in front of me, the idea that a lack of war is what lead to the insane levels of hypergamic privilege suddenly becomes a product of the nuclear age.

It’s absolutely fascinating in a gruesome way.

Divided Line
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@ 70’sAntiHero “To understand how we got here you need to look no further than that of the momentous swing of the philosophical pendulum. Away from logic, reason and patriarchy, (Aristotle) and towards mysticism, relativism and tribalism (Plato).” You haven’t spent much time with Plato, I see. Aristotle considered himself a Platonist, even if he disagreed with Plato on key points, the two biggest being Plato’s critique of democracy and the theory of the forms. What’s funny about this is that Aristotle’s critique of the theory is actually just the same one that Plato himself offered up in the Parmenides.… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
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Two schools of western philosophical thought. Plato v Aristotle. You have a distorted notion of philosophical history. Aristotle was a student of and his ideas were in contrast. St. Augustine based much of his ideas on Plato. You ramble on in non-essentials like Emanuel Kant.

Divided Line
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Also it’s worth mentioning that Plato’s lack of belief in the possibility of public rationality and the efficacy of democracy was shared by the founding fathers in the United States with the possible exception of Jefferson at various points. Democracy was thought to lead to the “spirit of faction” and was essentially a dirty word. Their lack of faith in it wasn’t based on Plato, however, but Hobbes. Read Richard Hofstadter’s histories, he explains it at length. That is the whole idea behind checks and balances in a tripartite system and choosing representative government over direct democracy. Take a look… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Sun wukong
“It’s absolutely fascinating in a gruesome way.”
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
The guy got two medals of honor not one two!
His approach to society is very close to Rollo’s… Give it a read
Going to get some rest. Thanks for existing on earth in any capacity.

Divided Line
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@70santihero “Two schools of western philosophical thought. Plato v Aristotle. You have a distorted notion of philosophical history. Aristotle was a student of and his ideas were in contrast. St. Augustine based much of his ideas on Plato. You ramble on in non-essentials like Emanuel Kant.” They are different schools, but nothing you’ve said here indicates that you understand either. I’m not going to continue to argue with you about this, since it’s pretty far off topic, but which side of right wing thinking did you get this idea from, I wonder? The Ayn Rand side or the Karl Popper… Read more »

Divided Line
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@70santihero

Actually scratch that, I was thinking of Thomas Aquinas.

70'sAntiHero
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Plato a student of Socrates, both believed that reality was unavailable. And that objects and events are shadows. Another words, eyes to be blind and reality is subjective.

Sounds like mysticism and relativism to me. . . . “Who’s to say?”. . . “Who to know?”

An infinite regression in relativism. . . . . . Are you sure that you can’t be sure? Certainty is achievable.

Two camps. Knowledge if provable. To wallow in grayness is the absence of hierarchy and principle.

Divided Line
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@70’sAntiHero “Plato a student of Socrates, both believed that reality was unavailable. And that objects and events are shadows. Another words, eyes to be blind and reality is subjective. ” This is literally the opposite of what Plato was arguing. Plato’s entire system of thought is based on the idea that reality is singular, objective, and can only be known through reason. That is how he defines philosophy. Socrates is said to have been martyred for this very idea. You would understand nothing about what Plato was arguing if you thought this. His chief disagreement with the sophists was on… Read more »

Divided Line
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@70’sAntiHero Let me try to make this relevant to the topic. What do women and relationships look like to a blue piller? He experiences them directly, a la Aristotelian epistemology, so he must know women and relationships for what they truly are, yeah? Or could we say that the blue piller experiences, not women and relationships, but their shadows, a la Platonic epistemology? See the difference? Plato is arguing that the red pill exists and can be taken, the actual woman can be known once the woman he experiences is recognized as an abstract shadow which he mistook for the… Read more »

Divided Line
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@ 70santihero

“Make woman man’s equal and she becomes his superior.” -Socrates

70'sAntiHero
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It is a mis-characterization that Plato was objective. More like non-sensory or extra sensory.

Aristotle held concepts as intrinsic a derivative of reality.

I disagree with your ramblings.

Lone Survivor
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@Kyfho Thank you for your response. Let’s elaborate on this: “It’s the difference between Beta Bux and Alpha Fucks. The hooker fucks you because you gave her money. She likes the money, not you. The everyday girl fucks you because you give her the tingles.” Do you think that when you meet a girl at a bar you are not paying? Quoting Bill Burr, the greatest trap women make you fall into is believing they won’t get their pound of flesh from you. Say you go tonight to a bar to practice all TRP stuff. You will be spending: 1.… Read more »

Divided Line
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@70santihero In the example I’ve given you, is the red pill sensory or non-sensory? The point here is that you never experience reality directly, you only get an image of it, reality’s recreation by your senses which appears on the stage of your mind. It is partially seen and partially understood. Outside of the cave we find the forms, or abstract patterns which explain the seen, inside the cave we find the shadows, which are what is seen but not understood. Look at an optical illusion like an the image of the old woman that is simultaneously the young woman.… Read more »

Lone Survivor
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@TOM SMV is not binary. A musclehead may not always be impoverished and having an MD doesn’t preclude being “yoked.” The goal of maximizing SMV (as I understand it) is about optimizing health, wealth and confidence. Agreed. Good point. It is a combination of factors: pursuing a career/goal in life + developing assertiveness + regaining masculinity And when you get to that point you simply ask yourself: “wait, I have achieved all this, why the fuck am I chasing after women who’s SMV will decay after hitting 25 while my SMV will continue to rise as I get promotions and… Read more »

Macbeth
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@Glenn

What I wasn’t too sure about was what I take to be an unnecessarily churlish attitude to @rollo who is the whole reason most of us are here.

70'sAntiHero
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@ Divided Line

If you get hit by a bus you experience reality directly.

Your are a child of post-modernism regurgitating your professor’s half truths and maligned suppositions. Such zeal!

Thomas Jefferson champion of freedom or slave owner?

You should understand the broader implications of Aristotle’s and Plato’s ideas. And use brevity.

I ascribe Occam’s razor and to the principle of Aristotle’s ides. Father of logic champion of reason.

Women subjective men logical. Theres your tie in.

Okay?

Goodnight.

Divided Line
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@70santihero “If you get hit by a bus you experience reality directly.” Uh huh, but if you never knew it, what difference does it make? If no consciousness exists to perceive the universe, the bus isn’t a bus. It’s just sub atomic particles in various configurations, no different than the air surrounding it. There is no bus, or air, for that matter. Matter exists, as does the energy which pulls it apart or holds it together, but it ceases to have *meaning.* “Your are a child of post-modernism regurgitating your professor’s half truths and maligned suppositions. Such zeal!” Do you… Read more »

Macbeth
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@Divided Line

Sorry to weigh in here, but I have a PhD in Semiotics and have to acknowledge French poststructuralism has a lot to answer for giving zealous young academics overblown ideas about how something has to be meaningful to be real.

If I punch you in the head it is real regardless of your ability to comprehend or relate the story later. End of story. It’s called corporeal semantics, FWIW.

Divided Line
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@ Macbeth I guess I don’t know enough about French poststructualism to understand what you mean by “meaningful.” If you refer to the blue pill and red pill analogy, it isn’t the end of the story. The flip side to your argument about being punched in the head is that if we all spent our entire lives as a draft horses and died that way believing we were otherwise and that women were something other than what they are, then we were never draft horses. It’s a Gettier problem. So I guess the red pill is bullshit and we can… Read more »

Divided Line
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If it is real yet can have no possible knowable meaning, then it’s noumena. There’s no attempt to argue otherwise, at least not by me. I can’t speak for French poststructuralists.

Macbeth
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Macbeth
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@Divided Line I’m not sure if that’s a deliberate misunderstanding about what I was saying (this is a red pill forum after all, so it might be safe to presume that’s mostly why most of us are here)? What I think you’re arguing is an ongoing position based on the idea that reality needs some sort of consent from us to be real, and it doesn’t. (Apologies if I am also misunderstanding you). One of the difficulties poststructuralist inquiry always faces is that almost any model for analysis we can offer is metaphoric. All we can ever do is hope… Read more »

447
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I see with great pleasure, that Gramsci and other, finer points of “really” (from an EU-perspective) left politics are discussed. The essential essay of Engels about the family was mentioned, too – good job. Of course these views are the “new normal” that no one is allowed to digress from without social punsihment in every social situation above a sport bar or behind closed doors of fraternities. Rollo’s defence of his anti-politics-stand is valid though, I think. The reason is this: Introducing politics into rationalo discussions about female behaviour quickly leads to one conclusion (even if those reaching the conclusion… Read more »

447
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MacBeth: “Sorry to weigh in here, but I have a PhD in Semiotics and have to acknowledge French poststructuralism has a lot to answer for giving zealous young academics overblown ideas about how something has to be meaningful to be real. If I punch you in the head it is real regardless of your ability to comprehend or relate the story later. End of story. It’s called corporeal semantics, FWIW.” Yes, of course the main guys there were socialists and sickos/gays. What those being lured into this thinking don’t realize (because their profs never told them) is: Viability. Viability –… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Macbeth
“I am only here because of a traumatic moment that opened my eyes to many of the things I’d always felt in my gut,”
Would you mind saying what that was? Curious to see if it’s familiar?

Novaseeker
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Novaseeker
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She does care, the thing is that you do not realize that. Women have learned to assess men with resources unconsciously the way we have learned to assess beauty unconsciously. If you go through life trying to find out a woman who will fuck you for the sake of it, you will die a virgin. Actually, no. Again, leaving aside issues where there are countries where more women select for resources than in other countries, in the US and in large West Europe cities like London, women are “riding the cock carousel” between 15 and at least 26, often 28-30.… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Novaseeker
Side note Tinder is across the street from Apple.
@All
Was just looking into this
http://aimhs.com.au/cms/documents/Men,_Unemployment_and_Suicide.pdf
Employment suicide and age.

Lone Survivor
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@Novaseeker I cannot give my opinion about what happens in the US as it has been 8 years since I was there for the last time. Now: 1. the AF-BB option you present is a false dilemma. Actually, money makes you “alpha” gets you laid. Why? Money = hookers and money = exciting life. Furthermore, a man who has money, is aware of his SMV and is aware of the Red Pill can get laid without turning into a provider. A guy with money can afford to do skydiving, climbing and all these cool things that make you interesting to… Read more »

Lone Survivor
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And I will state this again: MONEY GETS YOU LAID AND PUTS YOU IN THE HIGHEST NEGOTIATING POSITION. A woman who does not want to fuck you is discarded and replaced with a hooker.

Macbeth
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@rugby11ljh

The trauma is the garden variety unexpected marriage collapse. Nothing unusual here. I am one of @rollo’s guys in his early 40s for whom the only thing worse than this collapse in my marriage and rough road to red pill redemption would be to have remained married to such a woman.

rugby11ljh
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@Lone survivor
“Otherwise, you jack off to porn.”
Do alphas ever do that?
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/publications/ki-pubs.html
Or is the value of semen at a higher level?
What’s your version of Alpha fux and beta bux?

Novaseeker
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@Lone — Well, if you are not speaking about the US, then that’s probably where the disconnect lies. Rollo is in the US, as are Roissy, Roosh (both of those two are in the city where I live) and most of the “red pill” writers. AF/BB describes very well how women in the US are behaving, which is what is relevant for people who live here. Again, Tinder. As for “money = hookers”, again, as I wrote above, there is a huge qualitative difference in the sex with a woman who just wants you to bang her for the fun… Read more »

Glenn
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@MacBeth – Re: My Churlish tone – I’m sick and fucking tired of Rollo dismissing how politics gets us here. And in this post he does so while opening up the dialog on politics, and so inviting political commentary. I won’t comment on politics here if he doesn’t make silly, fact-free and incorrect comments about it. Have you read the Engels essay? Care to discuss Rawls’ Veil of ignorance, the “the difference principle” or his lexical hierarchy of justice? Do you actually have any idea what I’m even talking about? Churlish indeed. You see one of the things that pisses… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Novaseeker
What city is that? Curious
@Macbeth
Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee;
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
I see thee yet, in form as palpable
As this which now I draw.
–Macbeth, Act II, scene i
The truth will set you free…
@Lone survivor
What do you define as attractive in a women?

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