Surrender

Most of my readers are aware of my stand on the myth of male vulnerability. Weakness is not strength, but the Village of the Feminine Imperative, would have us believe that the more a man displays honest signs of vulnerability the more endearing he’ll be to women. The Blue Pill conditions men to believe that crying, or being more emotionally sensitive, or really anything that makes him identify with the feminine in his personal character is a form of this endearing vulnerability that women can (by appealing to equalist reason) be expected to respect in a man. While adopting this mindset may open a man up to ridicule (and unspoken disgust on the part of women), this is not true vulnerability. The Village might try to convince a man he’s being brave by avoiding conventional masculinity, but this emasculating vulnerability is nothing compared to what a man has to lose from real vulnerability.

What I think most men, certainly all Blue Pill men, miss is that the ultimate form of vulnerability a man can engage in is ‘catching feelings’ for, or emotionally investing himself in, any particular woman. And this is especially so if that man’s Blue Pill conditioning makes him oblivious to the risks of that vulnerability.

Nothing leaves a man more vulnerable in life, love, family, career, finances and really power over the direction of his life than to invest himself in a woman. The very act, the very thought, of surrendering his life’s imperative to the trust that a woman wont exercise the unimaginable control and potential for damage she has in his life is a vulnerability no woman will ever recognize or acknowledge; nor will the sacrifices that come from this vulnerability ever be something she has a capacity to appreciate.

Even in the best case scenarios, where a man’s investment is reciprocated, or a somewhat idyllic relationship grows between a man and a woman, such is the state of our modern sexual marketplace that a potential for a man’s ruin still colors that relationship. Our feminine-primary social order has, through legislation and social pretense, made the proposition of any man navigating the sexual marketplace one of inherent vulnerability. Women rarely understand the vulnerability a man is opening himself up to because our social order makes that potential for his harm invisible to her. In fact, if he resists opening himself up to potential ruin he’s considered to be insecure, and this in turn is attributed to his maleness.

I have no doubt there will be women reading this last paragraph and think, “Well, women are putting themselves at risk too, we have to be vulnerable too.” No, you really don’t. Since the beginning of the Sexual Revolution every potential aspect of vulnerability for women in the SMP has been meticulously compensated for, or insured against the worst. Whether that’s the grossly female-weighted divorce and custody laws, or legal abortion, or arbitrary consent laws that only serve women, or the special dispensation for women academically or vocationally, any and all vulnerability risk is mitigated for you. The emotional vulnerability you believe is so costly pales in comparison to the risk and consequences that vulnerability represents to men. Men commonly have more to risk, more to lose and invest more of themselves into that risk proposition.

True vulnerability, the kind that opens you up to life-destroying consequences, is when a man’s idealism for women, despite knowing all the very likely, very destructive, consequences is something he willfully ignores. For a Blue Pill man, his vulnerability is rarely ever recognized. Thanks to his life-long preconditioning he believes in a romanticism that insulates him from ever acknowledging the risks and the all-downside potential of that vulnerability. This obliviousness – keeping a Beta-in Waiting blind – is a primary goal of Blue Pill conditioning.

Idealizing Surrender

Women would rather be objectified than idealized. The reason for this really gets back to evolved gender differences; women want a man who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. In other words, women want to be the object of desire of a worthy man. When a man surrenders himself to the primacy of the feminine, when he makes a woman his mental point of origin, when he alters the course of his life to accommodate her, that’s when he ceases to be someone for whom she’ll willingly submit to. When she becomes his center he knowingly surrenders Frame.

It is, however, the innate idealism that predisposes men to outward thinking, to the belief in what could be realized, that also predisposes them to idolizing women on whole and idolizing a woman at once. A man’s idealism makes a lot of things possible for him, but it also puts him at terrible risk with regard to being truly vulnerable. Furthermore, men’s fundamental romantic nature is also attributed to our innate what-is-possible idealism. The Feminine Imperative has used this idealism to its benefit for millennia, but the most common (seemingly sensible) utility of it results in men’s surrender of self to the feminine.

When we read through the romantic poetry of the ages – almost all of it written by men – the most common reoccurring theme is that of a helpless ‘surrender’ to the love a man bears for a woman. From Ovid to Shakespeare to Byron the dialog and sentiment is the same; that of the inherent ‘correctness’ of a man surrendering his soul to the love – requited or not – of a woman. If there is a psychological root to the disorder of ONEitis it can be found in this poetic idealism.

However, there is nothing that makes a man more vulnerable to a woman, to the feminine, than his idealist’s nature. The Feminine Imperative knows this thumbscrew of men. One hallmark of the conditioned Beta mind is an eagerness to put themselves into a state of surrender to the feminine. I go into this a bit in Pre-Whipped:

These are the men I call pre-whipped; men so thoroughly conditioned, men who’ve so internalized that conditioning, that they mentally prepare themselves for total surrender to the Feminine Imperative, that they already make the perfect Beta provider before they even meet the woman to whom they’ll make their sacrifice.

But what should predispose men to so eagerly want this surrender? Certainly there’s an element of a (false) belief in the possibility of a mutual concept of love between that man and a (potential) woman. It’s what he believes should be possible.

What else? There’s the pre-conditioned belief that this surrender is his masculine duty. Countless Blue Pill pastors make a living belaboring the narrative that men can’t be Men until they mold themselves over the course of a lifetime to be a (once convenient) a woman’s ideal. Literally, manhood is denied to him until he surrenders to the feminine.

The Family Alpha made this observation last week:

Many men have given the power over their inner self entirely to the women of their lives.

While I completely agree, what I’m wondering is why this need to surrender self is an intrinsic aspect in men? The majority of men (80% Betas) are pre-whipped to expect a need to surrender to the women in their lives. Their abdication is so matter of fact that it becomes something subconscious for them.

Is this a characteristic that separates Betas from Alphas? I’d like to think so, but then a distinction needs to be made between being a Strong Independent Alpha who lives up to a positive, pro-social, conventionally masculine role (despite a world arrayed against it) and the same who, though still respectively Alpha, surrenders his sense of self to the woman he idolizes.

SFC Ton had a great comment about this surrender:

“Women do not really have more power……The first step is to realize that this is indeed the case. Men cede power. Men are taught to cede power. Men look for opportunities to cede power. Women just take advantage of men’s largess. A man does not have to be full on Alpha to get this, or to use it to his best advantage in life.”

One thing to consider is how much power have men ceded and to what effect. The surrender is real, both individually and socially. Reclaiming the power ceded in that surrender will be fought in many different scopes. In The Family Alpha’s article, the concern is two fold: the ceding of a man’s inner self, the surrender of identity to the approval of the feminine, and what the consequences are for men once they reclaim or recreate an identity apart from what he allowed the feminine to create for him.

This a significant thing to ponder for men. One reason I believe men become so despondent, so nihilistic, after some trauma that shook them into Red Pill awareness is that their identity, their sense of self, was a result of this ceding of power to women. They literally do not know what to make of themselves once they are cut free from that paradigm, but moreover they must confront the fact that who they are now (at the time of their unplugging) is, in large part, due to that self-surrender. Prior to their unplugging this surrender may have been involuntary for them, but still perhaps not. Their vulnerability and the true potential of permanent damage from it is put out in the open for them and others to realize.

It’s easy to think of men having difficulty getting over their Exes as in some way damaged. Family Alpha’s point was to encourage men to get back on the horse and back in the game and be competitive again, and that’s what I believe is most beneficial for these men. I also believe that it does men no service to prolong feeling sorry for themselves, but again, that’s part of the process of recreating a man. The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them and caused them to believe in, and then confront the consequences of their first vulnerability and surrender to the feminine. Isolation becomes their new form of surrender.

However, it’s also important that they recognize the potential for damage that surrendering, that ceding power, to the feminine represents to them. Red Pill aware men should acknowledge that their real vulnerability will be implied in any relationship they enter into beyond a perfunctory pump & dump. That knowledge should be a source of power that prevents them from overextending themselves once again into surrender to the feminine. They are aware now and that awareness now implies a responsibility to it. It demands that they keep their heads out of the sand and make calculated risks according to that awareness.

Your new Red Pill self has no more excuses of ignorance – your life’s been handed back to you with the full knowledge of the system you’re a part of.

No surrender.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Blaximus
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“….She wasn’t idealizing her power over males, it was REAL..”

Her power was over some uniformed males. 300 pound landwhales also have a form of power over some males.

It’s not her, it’s them. She doesn’t actually posses any power outside of that which some men voluntarily cede to her.

Blaximus
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” There is no frame to hold agianst lucifers daughter, she is merely an agent of chaos and i understand that but ill be damned if there are not alot of her acolytes spawning everywhere. Far more than what men want to admit exist. ” Lol, women can’t foment any chaos without the help of males. Women are pretty much helpless totally on their own. Imagine what would happen if all men vanished off of earth tomorrow? In 2 decades, what would the female death toll be? Think about that. Hard. They aren’t daughters of Lucifer at all. They are… Read more »

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I attended a fight back in the 80’s, and on this particular night, this happened – [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuaFIRD7_5Y&w=854&h=480%5D At the time, Mike Tyson was called ” The Baddest Man on the Planet ” and he was eating heavyweights for breakfast, lunch and dinner. He was undisputed and undefeated. I had an occasion where I’d spent a few hours with Michael Spinks, but even though I had a dozen questions about the fight above, I didn’t ask him one. There was no explanation needed. In an interview once, Mike Tyson commented that when he knocked Spinks down the first time, Spinks… Read more »

Fact_Comment
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Wow sometimes being red pilled is too much harsh reality. I’ve got pretty good grasp on the negatives. How can we make this knowledge work for us as men?

Roused
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Just when I think I’m making great progress I slip and allow fear to eek into my mindset. I am doing pretty damn good mostly, but that fear shit turns into my own hampster anxiety now and then. I know a simple solution: circulate myself more around some hotties and practice game. And keep my MPO straight only goals. Yeah, I’m basically talking out loud here. The Tyson videos reminds me of action without fear. Speaking which which….nice to know another Dune head is onboard. “Hypergamy doesn’t care how many embryos it burns so that the Qwizats Haderach may be… Read more »

SFC Ton
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My frame, sense of self etc matters more to me then the women in my life, my adult children, my young children etc. Because of this o have no problems maintaining frame. And because I have no problems maintaining frame, the Girls, my kids, the dogs etc all love and respect me.

Also I always seem to bang German chicks in Spain, Polish chicks in Germany and Spanish chicks in Miami. Which I get that last bit isn’t a surprise to anyone. Bang a lot of Bosnian chicks there too

Anonymous Reader
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On travel, have not read comments.
Baby-boomer era blue pill song from the Who sums up part of Rollo’s point

SHAKA LEONIDAS
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@Blaximus Im tracking what your saying. You are correct that military men do have a propensity for hoarding high notch land whales. There’s multiple reasons for that but “Naivety” is the primary culprit and having a group identity imposed upon you is it’s accomplice. -“Lol, women can’t foment any chaos without the help of males. Women are pretty much helpless totally on their own. Imagine what would happen if all men vanished off of earth tomorrow? In 2 decades, what would the female death toll be?”- Thats the Jedi mind trick im referring to. The illusion of power does not… Read more »

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@ SHAKA ” The Buster Douglas vs Mike Tyson fight isn’t the greatest comparison. Those were 2 men fighting in a sanctioned and regulated fight with all things being constant and uniformed except for the two men. Even then they were matched by weight class. Had Buster lost he would have been another on the hit list and his “lack of fear” comments would have been irrelevant. His lack of fear didnt win that fight. His fist repeatedly and effectively hitting Mike Tyson’s skull until he was renderd unable to defend himself won that fight.” Lol, you totally missed my… Read more »

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@ Ton ” My frame, sense of self etc matters more to me then the women in my life, my adult children, my young children etc. Because of this o have no problems maintaining frame. And because I have no problems maintaining frame, the Girls, my kids, the dogs etc all love and respect me. ” Perfect. Idk, some guys find Frame like building the Great Wall of China or something. Mental Point of Origin + Frame gets shit in line. I cosign what you’ve said because I understand that without my frame, everything else becomes lessened and compromised, and… Read more »

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“The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power.… Read more »

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Ahhh I should have said they love me because they respect and fear me.

Also notice I said nothing about loving them. Tricks like to think if they give love/ respect they will get that shit in return, but pimps know better

Lost Patrol
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@Fact_Comment

How can we make this knowledge work for us as men?

Keep reading man. This thread alone will provide, and there are many like it.

rugby11
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Rollo

SHAKA LEONIDAS
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“It just can’t happen without a man’s active participation, and most times that participation comes from a lack of understanding and willpower.” I whole heartedly understand the concept of Mind over Matter. “If you don’t mind, it doesnt matter” Willpower… thats person and situation dependent. Its a good philosphy. The military taught me all to well how a fighting spirit can be used to your detriment and somebody else’s benefit but i digress. Frame is good but ego preservation instincts on Decabol is called delusion. “im going to live my life , and if a bitch act up imma check… Read more »

kfg
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“….nice to know another Dune head is onboard.”

The frame must flow.

SJF
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@Blaximus Great stuff you are writing. “Idk, some guys find Frame like building the Great Wall of China or something. Mental Point of Origin + Frame gets shit in line.” I don’t mind if you and Ton AMOG. Because it is a great role model to move toward more masculine and it is the essence of what Rollo espouses. I haven’t found a word to Truth that you and Ton and Rollo that doesn’t resonate. But let’s just suppose some one like me is actually finding Frame like starting to build the Great Wall of China. (starting 4 years ago)… Read more »

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This one time at band camp I was sitting on top of a hill providing fire support for 2 other squads bounding around a low hill to hit this bunker system. Routine training mission, ran that range dozens of times before, 2 squads moving up quickly in 2 separate Ranger files; 2 M60’s & 2 M249’s laying down a steady, rhythmic suppressing fire, 5-7 round burst, shift fire, 5-7 round burst, shift fire, working the beaten zones like pros. Our SFC com3trolling the pigs, our squad leader controlling the SAW’s, team leaders dropping 40mm rounds near the bunkers, HE at… Read more »

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I had to rebuild my frame after 8 years of marriage and electing to follow married advice from church boys, but I did it rather quickly post divorce. The power of harnessed rage I reckon

SFC Ton
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Also when i attempt to help men these days it’s almost always centered on building their frame via masculine challenges. I try to steer clear of straight up game advice because I don’t really have game or decent advice on the topic…. caveat being helping them steer clear of obvious mistakes

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IOW. The goal for a man is to have inter-sexual relationships be No Big Deal. Doesn’t mean that isn’t the state for most men. The goal for men is to have release from constraint after struggling through. Doesn’t mean most men aren’t in a state of constraint. Saying: make life for a man be No Big Deal and just Hold Frame is not the same as realizing that most men trying to hold their Frame is actually a big deal. Saying “just do it” is sometimes just preaching to the frustrated. (Not that I’m frustrated. But I suspect others in… Read more »

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@June 24, 2017 at 9:16 pm

Google translate wasn’t able to translate.

What was the moral of the story?

SFC Ton
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You are a smart guy
Figure it out

SJF
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I can’t claim drinking too much at the UMC Graduation Party. Cause I didn’t (…said in my best Jim Leahy, Trailer Park Boys tone of voice). But I can claim low blood sugar when I wrote that. 48 mg/dl in fact. So disregard anything I said recently. And I’ll carry on tomorrow.

SHAKA LEONIDAS
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@SFC TON “Everyone in the platoon know who and why, no one said shit. I am 100% certain Joddie thought banging one of his subordinates old lady was tottaly worth bleeding out on some live fire range in Georgia.” Lol. Blue Falcons catch hot ones pew pew. OPP(Other peoples pussy) is cool in concept but problematic in real life. “The goal for a man is to have inter-sexual relationships be No Big Deal. Doesn’t mean that isn’t the state for most men. The goal for men is to have release from constraint after struggling through. Doesn’t mean most men aren’t… Read more »

SFC Ton
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Contingency plan for what?

For guys who are still working on their frame I suggest boundaries. Simple in theory, much less so in practice becuase the thirst is real. It is difficult to get some men to value themselves, their pride, self respect, their standing among men etc above pussy but I generally find it easier to get men to set up boundaries involving their time and money, much less so around not taking shit off bitches but I don’t have any magic suggestions

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@ Eddie Willers: Late to the party, but do read and reread this link that someone posted above. https://blacklabellogic.com/2017/06/22/red-pill-logic-internal-messaging/ To me, this and Rollo’s maxim “don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better” best define the key to a successful, happy life. When I feel best about myself and take the greatest pride in my accomplishments is when I own my shit — whether it’s a success or a failure. Radical responsibility is truly the key to happiness. By contrast, when I blame others and feel like a victim is when I inevitably start feeling like shit. Worthless, hopeless,… Read more »

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@SJF Are you lording over the guys that have to start from a deficit? Rather than had it all along? That’s not criticism. I love you guys. And I love the tough love. I dig where this comes from. If a man is new to the scene he could get the idea some commenters are just telling him he isn’t cutting it, and should be like them. Right, I already know that so thanks for the salt in the wound. But if he sticks with the storylines for a few weeks he’ll see that’s not what’s happening. Just like I… Read more »

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Shaka — It isn’t about the “big picture”. Sure, the big picture is fucked, if it wasn’t there wouldn’t be a manosphere. The big picture also can’t be fixed — it is what it is. The only questions are what do YOU do as one guy — what do YOU do in the context we live in, knowing what we do about it. Yes, it’s fem-centric, yes it’s based on there being an endless supply of BP men, yes women have the upper hand in the “big picture” in terms of relations with this endless sea of BP guys. Can’t… Read more »

kfg
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“The vibe I get from commentary like Blax’s or Ton’s over time is not AMOGing, more like encouragement or leadership for men to achieve the above.” Roger Bannister was considered an A- runner. There were at least three men who beat him consistently and several more who could beat him on a given day. Each of these men had tried to break the four minute mile, and failed. Bannister did it. He will forever be the first, but his record did not stand for very long. The others went out and in short order had beaten Bannisters mark. They had… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“You just learn to play the game under the current rules and win…” Yesterday, saw an administrator involved with my sacking. I walked over, cheerfully greeted him, his wife. Talked about the weather, small stuff. He was uncomfortable, avoided me initially, soon realized I meant no harm. His first question: He immediately asked where my wife was…she was nearby in her motorcycle gear and heels. As I’ve said before, he and others were convinced my marriage, life were crumbling, still do apparently. It’s incomprehensible to BP guys what RP men can do, experience. RP: Winning = Exercising freewill. Playing to… Read more »

kfg
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“The product “cements the idea that women can and should do whatever they want” . . . ”

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/meet-the-official-fake-nipples-of-the-resistance/

theasdgamer
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went to a dinner party last night…Mrs. Gamer was a relative knockout among the girls and won the girl competition with a stunning dress…all the other girls wore pants, lol…Mrs. Gamer was off chatting with the host and I was paying a slight amount of attention to the two of them…the hostess is a girl who likes to touch and she touching everybody, including me…a boob graze…I moved out of her way, lol, but I was still warm to her all night

Oscar C.
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@Shaka Thanks for your comment. I concur regarding tighter social circles in Spain. Prostitution has been always more popular here compared with other countries, and I think it is fine as long as there is no coercion on the girls. I do really need to break the feedback loop, yes. My problem is being very logical and rational, and a certain impatience with simple leisures such as going out, bars, sports events… I generally don’t like those sorts of interactions where nothing is really being done, simply “hanging out”. Unfortunately women just happen to love them. @SJF Thanks for the… Read more »

SHAKA LEONIDAS
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@novaseeker “It isn’t about the “big picture”. Sure, the big picture is fucked, if it wasn’t there wouldn’t be a manosphere. The big picture also can’t be fixed — it is what it is. The only questions are what do YOU do as one guy — what do YOU do in the context we live in, knowing what we do about it.” I believe your right. Its not an easy pill to swallow knowing you have to roll with one tide or another. I have this grandiose scheme concocted up that if Men as a whole went back to strong… Read more »

SFC Ton
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When your frame is right women need you sexually a lot more then you need them

SHAKA LEONIDAS
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@SFC TON “Contingency plan for what? For guys who are still working on their frame I suggest boundaries. Simple in theory, much less so in practice becuase the thirst is real. It is difficult to get some men to value themselves, their pride, self respect, their standing among men etc above pussy but I generally find it easier to get men to set up boundaries involving their time and money, much less so around not taking shit off bitches but I don’t have any magic suggestions” This exactly what im talking about. Dudes thinking they chicks are unflappable but when… Read more »

SFC Ton
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My operating principle is if you loose positive visual contact for more then 5 mins some other dude has parked his mule in your barn which is why I don’t kiss them on the lips or go down on them. That shit is for chumps. The default setting should be to assume she is a hardcore cock hound until proven otherwise but once again, when your frame is right it’s easy to next a bitch then go out and bang 10 more. Preferably her younger and hotter sister too Frame is everything which is why I try to support men… Read more »

kfg
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” . . . I don’t kiss them on the lips or go down on them. That shit is for chumps.”

Even the Red Pill choir is reticent to learn the tune that those are prizes that she must win. And not just any old prizes either, but world champion and lifetime achievement award.

Mike
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@Anon1

I’m familiar with some of RSDTyler’s material.
Don’t think this guy is ugly. He is interesting to watch talking. Captvating at times.
So why do you think if we guys enjoy listening to this dude, women wouldn’t listen as well?

Novaseeker
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I believe it but were in an enviroment where you dont know who’s pussy is OPP. Well, it never is OPP. That’s a fiction in some other guy’s mind, and it’s a big problem for him. What that other guy needs to understand is that pussy belongs to you in the following situation only: when your dick is in that pussy. Otherwise, it belongs to the woman with the pussy, period, and she will do with what she wants, when she wants, regardless of what she may be mouthing at any point in time, particularly to some guy whom she… Read more »

SFC Ton
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For those who can’t well … they are the ones who get played.
……………..
Red Pill basics is all about not getting played

Then a man can move on to better things

SFC Ton
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If she wants someone to go down on her the bitch better bring a girlfriend becuase it ain’t ever going to be me

Anon01
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@Mike I never said he doesn’t have game. I said both he and max say ~ the same things, so saying max is handsome is stupid, because you can get the same advise from the fat guy. (I was responding to the “rsdmax is a good looking dude, so his advise is not gonna help a hard case guy.”) I agree Tyler “is interesting to watch talking. Captvating at times.” That’s why I suggested max’s program, because it explains how to do it. Tyler focuses much more on this in his hotseat@home. Too much for what I needed tbh, but… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“they sexually need you too, but much less” False. Women would rather die than live without their alpha. “When the ship foundered, the soldiers’ commander told his men to ‘stand fast!’ and allow women and children to make use of the few lifeboats on the vessel. “Some women did not want to go on their own — they had to be torn away from their husbands, carried over to the bulwark and dropped over the ship’s side.” “Mrs. Hoyt gave a concise account of the tragedy to her father. She did not leave her husband’s side until the last boat… Read more »

Blaximus
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… If Tyler was ever able to ” take a chick off me “, I’d jump off of a fucking cliff.

EhIntellect
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From the OP: Women would rather be objectified than idealized. The reason for this really gets back to evolved gender differences; women want a man who other men want to be and other women want to fuck.

Be that man.

SFC Ton
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LOL consigned Blax.

SFC Ton
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This dude will make some husband a lucky man one day

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/grown-man-flower-girl_us_594c0216e4b01cdedf01b741

SJF
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@ “At the position I am now, realizing the rest of my life is about running those neverending mindgames is really disheartening.” It’s time to start running your life on a micro level. What actual masculine role models do you have in your life? Are you taking advantage of them? You should take some time to listen to the Mark Baxter podcasts. There you have some rational masculine role models interviewed, and there commentary is a surrogate for having a father, uncle or a grsnfather masculine advice. I wouold recommend the podcasts with The Illimitable Man and The Family Alpha.… Read more »

SJF
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That was of course @ Oscar

Sentient
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Nova

“she’s yours if and when she wants to be, and only until she doesn’t want to be, and that’s that.”

precise. But that also does not exclude a duration of “forever”… And the mystery of the ride or die girl continues…

SJF
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I mentioned Mark Baxter Podcasts. Rather than Illimitable Man, I meant BlackLabelLogic. I listened to that one at my farm today and it was exceptional.

Yollo Comanche
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@Oscar I’m glad you found this website. The men on here are some of the most understanding people I’ve ever had any semblance of a conversation with. If you’re discouraged, let me be one more to tell you that ultimately you’ll be encouraged to keep what’s good, and throw out what’s bad. You’ll have to have the balls to do that. Even in the thoughts you think. It will be sad, but liberating. The truth is people wont take to you having a change in your way of thinking too fast. But you are just trying to change your thinking… Read more »

SJF
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“The men on here are some of the most understanding people I’ve ever had any semblance of a conversation with.” It’s almost as if the way of men is the way of way of the gang that protects its perimeter and operates in a small group that promotes a meritocracy, and subscribes to its members having tactical virtues. “When someone tells a man to be a man, they mean that there is a way to be a man. A man is not just a thing to be—it is also a way to be, a path to follow and a way… Read more »

Novaseeker
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precise. But that also does not exclude a duration of “forever” Yep, provided forever is seen as an endless series of points in time which are strung together by the woman feeling it, which is the point. She can feel it for as long as she lives if you know what you are doing, but it’s never a stasis — that’s the point for other guys to understand. Guys tend to view “my pussy” as being a state of static ownership, which it isn’t. Everything is dynamic in life, and the sooner guys understand that, and embrace it (because it’s… Read more »

Anon01
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@Blaximus, SFC Ton

“There’s no such thing as anybody who can’t be AMOGed; everybody can be AMOGed.”
~A paraphrased American(?)

But I kinda agree. This works because most people don’t have ANY game at all. Most infield I’ve seen is dudes either doing nothing or getting mad.

SFC Ton
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SFC Ton
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The vast majority of challenges, if dealt with correctly will elevate both men. It is right, good and natural to be checked, to respond to the attempted check and both men walk away a better and more healthy understand of themselves and the world around them. Most men aren’t willing to take AMOG games very fair. Which means most men will loose when they play, or back off after the 1st few challenges are rebuffed. If someone is pushing those limits odds are good you didn’t deal with the initial challenge very well or he is new to the game.… Read more »

SFC Ton
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SFC Ton
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Tldr
Everyone has a plan until I punch them in the face

Mike Tyson

theasdgamer
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@Ton

The vast majority of challenges, if dealt with correctly will elevate both men.

It took me a few decades, but I finally got that. Man tests strengthen both men if handled properly.

theasdgamer
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@Oscar

At the position I am now, realizing the rest of my life is about running those neverending mindgames is really disheartening.

Once you get some skill, those mindgames can be fun and require very little effort. Right now they look like they require a lot of effort with lots of risk because you haven’t developed the skill yet.

EhIntellect
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EhIntellect
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“Above all things, masculinity is about what men want from each other.”

What would I want from my peers?

1. Competence.
2. Honesty
3. Esprit de corps

Lost Patrol
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Lost Patrol
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If someone is pushing those limits odds are good you didn’t deal with the initial challenge very well or he is new to the game. @Ton Your challenge comment is great stuff. serious men ie serious threats know shit can escalate and are also easy to deal with if you understand what’s going on Paradox: The men that are serious threats are also easy to deal with. Men like this tend to stay chill most places most of the time, but they have no real “medium” setting when provoked. They recognize each other so testing and posturing is kept to… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“If a more dangerous man challenges you odds are good you created the situation.”

That’s leaning out. Better to act than be reacting.

SJF
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@EhIntellect You forgot courage. You won’t want your peers to be reckless, you want them to be courageous when it matters. Throw in courage and you have the elements of men’s evolved firmware (when competent). Firmware designed to fight and cooperate. For context, there is this from Jack Donovan’s Way of Men: The Tactical Virtues Quote: Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor. These are the practical virtues of men who must rely on one another in a worst-case scenario. Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor are simple, functional virtues. They are the virtues of men who must answer to their brothers first,… Read more »

SJF
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Hey, you did add it. Courage=’leaning out’…

Oscar C.
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Oscar C.
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@Eh Intellect I intend to do just that. I went out this Saturday and stroke up some conversations. I have been looking into the whole daygame thing, particularly Krauser. A bit daunting but I think it is possible to start small and make progress. @SJF Thanks again for your thoughtful answer. About the podcasts, I am already subscribed to Baxter’s on SoundCloud. Sorry if this is a major rant but I think it is necessary to explain things well. I grew up in a traditional intact family. Regarding masculine models, the more I read here the more convinced I am… Read more »

Oscar C.
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@ SJF answer is above, failed to respond directly from e-mail.

SJF
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@ Oscar That was quite a good narrative exposition of how you got to “here”. Good job in writing that out and good job on insight. The trouble with insight is that sometimes we take credit for our strengths and outsource our weaknesses. I say the following not as criticism, but in order to give you more insight on routes to take to minimize your weaknesses, and/or work your way out of not being competent in your weak areas. In addition to working on (masculine) self improvement, are you open to the idea that you will be more able to… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient
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comment image

Sports and games…. Get your boy into sport before it is too late.

EhIntellect
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“developed taste for more challenging things intellectually”

“being naturally talkative I can make friends with ease”

A couple items:

You’ve figured out being smart is helpful…but smart guys are prone to Rube-Goldberg-machine justifications which superficially cover all the necessary weaknesses. The splinter remains…

Making friends is helpful…but being the nice guy isn’t masculine.

https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339

EhIntellect
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@ Sentient

My boys started Lacrosse last year. Awesome.

kfg
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kfg
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@Sentient:

They ruined the game when they replaced the rock with a rubber ball. Years can go by without a single fatality these days.

Sentient
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The thing with most boys and sport… Depending on their physical development you probably have to push them through a phase where they are inferior, lighter slower less aggresive. And they are scared even if they aren’t saying it. But persevere, keep encouraging and then they have those breakthroughs… Nothing can take away that kind of confidence then.

Well some chick if you don’t get his head right early…

Do The Hard Work ™

Sentient
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Eh

Awesome. There are no cockier kids around except maybe hockey players…

The Lax Bro thing really exists.

Oscar C.
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@SJF Yes, I like the Männerbund concept. However I am having a bit of trouble looking for an example I can relate to. I have always kept good friendships with other men, but the activities I do with them are things such as eating out, a trip, some casual sport, going out on Saturdays… not serious hobbies or work of any sort. Frankly, I can not think right now of any of those male-only groups aside sports (hunting? car tuning?). My parents have never been very social outside of family, to the point that I can not really say they… Read more »

Oscar C.
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@Eh

Certainly, being the “nice guy” is not an option. Well put with the “Rube-Goldberg” metaphor.

Blaximus
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I’ll just leave this here.

I’ve been amateurly tracking the studies on testosterone for a decade, and there’s something awful going on.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mduUbJTdXag&w=854&h=480%5D

EhIntellect
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EhIntellect
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Steve Stifler…Lax insensitive ass icon

Scroll to 1:00-1:40. That’s ’bout right.

SFC Ton
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Regarding sports….

To develop masculine frame the sport needs to pose a legit threat to life and limb. So no gay shit like soccer, tennis, baseball etc and double down on shit like boxing, mma etc. And by that I mean, don’t just show up to the gym but get in the fucking ring. I promise you getting your ass beat in the ring hurts a less then not getting the shit kicked out of you and standing back up.

Remember the goal is to have game dog game or better yet dead game.

SFC Ton
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SFC Ton
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Testosterone levels are dropping becuase men live soft lives. The curse of civilization and technology

Blaximus
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@ Oscar ” At the position I am now, realizing the rest of my life is about running those neverending mindgames is really disheartening. I think that while most people are Beta at a micro level (wanting to get married with soulmate, kids, normal job…), I am Beta at a macro level (higher values, patriotism, sense of history, honor, etc), and I am seeing all that identity destroyed before my very eyes right now. Very distressing. I wonder what RP Americans think of patriotism and all that stuff. Do you fly the American flag on your porch? Do you really… Read more »

SJF
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@SFC Ton Even if a sport doesn’t pose a legit threat to life and limb, there is still some value in the gay shit sports like soccer. Like learning how to be a leader of men. Some team sports are better than no team sports. Like I played soccer, but I was also co-captain of the team my junior year of high-school. (I also wrestled and that was highly regarded in my community. Believe it or not it was a team sport and the camaraderie of the team was important in masculine socializing). I didn’t actually like soccer after being… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . testosterone . . . there’s something awful going on.”

Ya think?

“Testosterone levels are dropping becuase men live soft lives.”

Hitting something, anything, raises testosterone. So does simply handling weapons.

What percentage of men these days do you suppose ever hit something with a weapon?

Mike
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Mike
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@anon01 My point was a different one: Why is Tyler successful with people (not just girls)? Because he is intriguing, charismatic, even a tad enigmatic.. quite a character while still being pretty likable. All things that would potentially attract women. This other dude Max… He is just handsome and confident. This would also attract women. Imo this Max dude is a big wuss though and Tyler smokes him any time of day in terms of personality and character. I’ve watched the brief video of M. and it was creepy. Like an ingenuine sales man trying hard to sell his new… Read more »

Blaximus
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@ SJF ” My point is that no one told us this stuff 25 years ago, and I hope the young guys that are 25 years younger listen with an open ear. To you guys. There are a lot of guys out there that don’t have that frame. Frame is not power. Competence is power. Without that: Frame is still being built brick by brick as if it is the Great Wall of China. It works. Don’t diminish the job of building and keep preaching. Will some of us have yours or Ton’s Power? No. Do we work toward it?… Read more »

Lost Patrol
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Lost Patrol
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The Hanson Brothers

Anon01
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@Mike

Can you tell me what’s your point?

Do you think game doesn’t work?

Do you think tyler and max say different things?

I’m not so sure what we are arguing about

SJF
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@Oscar C. June 26, 2017 at 11:25 am You said: “I have always kept good friendships with other men, but the activities I do with them are things such as eating out, a trip, some casual sport, going out on Saturdays… not serious hobbies or work of any sort. Frankly, I can not think right now of any of those male-only groups aside sports (hunting? car tuning?).” Do you understand that you learned this from your mom and this is a feminine way of having friendships? Do you understand that with guys, the object is not to “keep good friendships”,… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@Ton

So no gay shit like soccer

Lol, I saw a Brazilian bjj instructor deliberately kick an opponent in the head as the Brazilian scored a goal with an overhead kick. After being kicked, the opponent had an open scalp wound and a cut above one of his eyes. The ref stopped the game until the opponent got cleaned up. Gay.

rugby11
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rugby11
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Oscar C.
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Oscar C.
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@Blaximus Your answer regarding patriotism is exactly what I was expecting. A positive reaction towards nation & people as a defense of your own way of life, but a certain disdain for the political philosophy around them. As you said “I don’t believe in putting too much stock in things that are way outside yourself. I am priority #1” When I said I was Beta at a macro level, I meant for instance that even if I myself did not want to have kids, I would still contemplate begetting them to do my part in the demographic crisis a country… Read more »

dr zipper
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dr zipper
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lol at the pre-defined list of acceptable activities a man can do to develop his masculinity I’ve broken more bones, had more stitches and bruises and cuts and scrapes by age 12 than most ever will…. yeah, I was that kid; let’s just stop there and not even count all the shit I’ve fucked up since then, too got this shit from motorcycles, bicycles, bucking horses, climbing shit and falling off, running barefoot where I shouldn’t, woodshop idiocy, boxing/rasslin with my friends, minor criminal activities, bb gun fights (don’t ask), just about everything I do is full tilt until I… Read more »

SFC Ton
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I broke my thumb coming down a ladder. Doesn’t mean ladders are a serious risk.

Never pass up a chance to smash someone with a set of brass knuckles. Man is that old school fun.

SFC Ton
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but I feel STRONGLY that MPO and Frame are concepts that are CRUCIAL for a man to grasp and put into practice asap.
Blax

Yeah man. I don’t have game, I don’t have style, class, high iq, a college degree, height, good looks or a 6 pack. What I do have is frame, an overtly masculine life and 3 other dudes share of zero fucks given.

theasdgamer
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@Rollo

SFC Ton had a great comment about this surrender:

Actually that was Blax. Ton just quoted it.

dr zipper
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yeah, Ton, that’s why I like your posts

when people say shit like “I’m not tall, handsome, rich, ripped, degreed, pedigreed, filligreed, etc.” then we can say that’s just bullshit, all you need is MPO + frame = GAME

guys with less than ideal game can look to guys like you and know the only thing in our way is ourselves; some may not like that truth because they can’t deflect blame, but personally I like that the solution is fully in my own control

anything else are just excuses

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