Kill Your Idols

The Family Alpha had a motivational post about getting over a past lover this week.

Getting Over Your Relationship PTSD Pt. II: Give Love One More Chance

I thought this was a reasonably good post. My only reservation (and this is no reflection on TFA) is I’m seeing a lot of “get back on the horse and ride” positivity attempts to replace rational understanding of intersexual dynamics when it comes to men’s bad experiences with women or break ups in the Manosphere these days. I’m not saying that “steel sharpening steel” encouragement or a sharp kick in the ass isn’t helpful for these men. Lord knows I’m apt to do just that myself with what I’ve been writing for over a decade, but it’s my view that understanding the mechanics of why that experience happened, and learning about women and oneself is vital to a man’s personal development.

It’s not enough to say ‘sack up, go lift and get over it’; a man’s got to learn from that pain, go through the process of developing insight from what Red Pill awareness shows him about it and grow from it. Yes, men can dwell on it and let it consume them or they can utilize those feelings to motivate them to understanding how they came to be in these circumstances. I don’t think I’m exaggerating here when I say that the most common way most men come to my blog (or any number of other Red Pill blogs) or the Manosphere proper is as the result of going through a traumatic breakup.

I’ve mentioned this in many prior posts that, unfortunately, the time men are most receptive to Red Pill awareness comes when they’re experiencing the loss of a lover whom they believed was a key goal of their Blue Pill idealism. Their “perfect” Blue Pill world was destroyed for them, but more importantly their ego-investments in that world reached a point that Red Pill reality would no longer sustain for him. It’s at this juncture men seek out the Red Pill community. Some of the most common search terms The Rational Male blog gets linked to are phrases like “How do I get my girlfriend back?” and “How do I get over an Ex?”

While I can empathize with men in such circumstance, I also recognize that men need to Kill the Beta before it kills them. A lot of guys reeling from having the Blue Pill rug pulled out from under them resort to either suicide, self-improvement or a long-term dwelling upon what they believe was a loss they will never be able to replace. And even after the acceptance of that loss becomes normalcy for him, his subconscious still wont allow him to move on – even when he thinks he has.

Studies have shown that while women may take a breakup the hardest (generally, only when they’re the ones being dumped) it is men who suffer more in the long term, and, because of men’s mental firmware and differing sexual strategy, may never truly get over it:

But men are more “competitive” in their approach, meaning the loss of a woman they see as a good catch could be deeply felt for months or even years.

Anyone familiar with my essay War Brides, understands the evolutionary reasoning behind why women have an ability to move on after a breakup so much quicker than men. However, much of men’s inability to let go is dependent upon his investment in his Blue Pill conditioning; that and how his subconscious believes in where he fits in a sexual marketplace founded on Blue Pill idealism:

“The man will likely feel the loss deeply and for a very long period of time as it sinks in that he must start competing all over again to replace what he has lost – or worse still, come to the realization that the loss is irreplaceable,” says Morris.

And because women have more to lose by choosing the wrong partner, they are also more likely to pull the plug on a relationship – with 70% of divorces in the US filed by women.

Kill Your Idols

This only reinforces my stance on Blue Pill men investing themselves in the fallacy of Relational Equity. One reason men have such trouble getting over a previous lover is because Blue Pill conditioning predisposes men to idolize women on whole, while their old books perspective fosters the idea that their investment in the relationship should be what sustains it – rather than accepting the cold, harsh reality of Hypergamy.

TFA writes:

Many men have given the power over their inner-self entirely to the women of their lives. They let their ex-relationships dictate their future relationships, trying to do the opposite of before or they’ll fall into the same routine ultimately leading to a love life filled with redundancy without progress.

You need to break the cycle.

Married men, divorced men, guys coming out of a shitty LTR, and even the men who had a plate cheat on them thus scarring their soul permanently are not acting in accordance with their masculine self if they’re basing decisions off how they can avoid heartache again.

This is good advice, but I think one of the mistakes Blue Pill men make when they exit (or are ejected from) a relationship is that they see a relationship as the only legitimate form of intersexual dynamics. Once a man unplugs, for better or worse, that idolization, the giving over power of self to the Feminine has to be dispelled – but not at the expense of a full understanding of the Red Pill awareness that brings him to unplugging in the first place.

Most men, the largely 80% Beta majority, are conditioned to be serial monogamists. They are taught to identify with the feminine to the point that only what he believes women’s (old books) sexual prioritization should be is correct and valid for himself. A lot of well-meaning Red Pill men think monogamy is the only rational decision to break the cycle.

One of the maxims of the Manosphere is that the best way to get over a woman is to go fuck 20 more before you consider monogamy with another one. This advice actually makes, an albeit simplistic, sense in that the best way to avoid ONEitis is to Spin Plates. Usually, that’s what a bad Blue Pill rejection amounts to; a losing of the best thing that Beta has ever had in terms of sexual access. The Blue Pill conditioned mindset predisposes men to a scarcity mentality and it does so by training men to believe that exclusive monogamy is the only meaningful condition in which a sexual, intimate relationship can take place for him.

So, stemming from this scarcity mentality, we get generations of preconditioned Betas latching on to self-induced ONEitis-prone relationships. Thus, you get pitiable Beta men just this side of suicidal over average HB 5-6 women. I would argue that the reason we see such a preponderance of men bemoaning their post-rejection state (suicide or self-pity) is directly attributable to Blue Pill conditioning and then taking it from there.

Telling this post-rejection Beta, who thought he’d had his Blue Pill dreams come true, that he ought to Spin Plates, fuck 20 women and go lift is like speaking a foreign language to him. His Blue Pill mindset can’t comprehend it, at least at first. Getting past this state of shock usually involves despair, anger, disillusionment – he’s as likely to fight you for being misogynist as he is to fall apart in tears – but as I’ve always said, unplugging guys from the Matrix is dirty work.

Now, just for sake of comparison here, it should be noted that if we go by the Pareto Principle and presume 80% of men are Betas and 20% are some shade of Alpha, we’ll see the dynamics for a breakup change accordingly. I would argue that for the 80% of Beta men, they are the ones women are breaking up with. And the logic of women’s sexual strategy would also suggest that if a woman perceives her mate to be 1-2 steps in SMV above herself she would be less (if at all) inclined to initiate a breakup with a guy she sees as Alpha. Thus, the more Alpha a man, the less prone to ONEitis and lingering post-breakup psychosis he’ll be.

Doing the Work – Pre vs. Post Unplugging

Recently there’s been a push to paint Red Pill aware men as bitter guys who get stuck in the anger phase of unplugging. No doubt this can happen, and considering the mass effect of Blue Pill conditioning in men it’s easy to see how it happens for them. For the larger part I concur with what The Family Alpha is suggesting here; for both psychological and personal reasons it can be all too easy for men to get stuck dwelling on an experience with one woman and then transferring that anger and regret to a self-limiting outlook that holds him back from interacting with women. I imagine some of my MGTOW readers see this as being pragmatic, but as with everything for men, isolation is dangerous.

On the other hand, however, I still think we need to guard against falling into the trap of thinking that a man’s holding onto his Blue Pill regrets, or transferring that pain to a real misogyny means that fundamental Red Pill awareness is the source of his self-limitations. The point of Red Pill awareness isn’t to make a man ‘hate’ women, but rather to inform him of women’s nature so he wont hate what he’d never expect from women.

I really think there are two opposing sides that evolved from Red Pill awareness. On one extreme we have hardline MGTOW men wanting to remove themselves wholesale from interacting with women – largely because of their Red Pill awareness. And on the other we’ve got the Positive Mindset brokers believing that Red Pill awareness leads to the anger and resentment that causes men to limit themselves with women.

In the middle of this we have men who’ve found a new balance in their lives because they became Red Pill aware and created a new, healthier paradigm for themselves with it. It becomes a game of exaggerated nihilism vs. exaggerated optimism, but in the middle we have to find a healthy pragmatism in how we will use this awareness to redefine ourselves. It appears to me that at either extreme there comes a limiting of just how much Red Pill awareness either set is willing to embrace.

195 comments

  1. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about MGTOWs within the manosphere. The core tenet of MGTOW (at least from what I gleaned from /r/mgtow) is NOT rejecting sex, it is rejecting relationships. Maybe we need a different term for men expressly choosing celibacy (Men Going the Celibate Way?) but I digress.

  2. “In the middle of this we have men who’ve found a new balance in their lives because they became Red Pill aware and created a new, healthier paradigm for themselves with it.”

    Call me middle.

    I’m a huge fan of healthy (relationships), as well as a huge fan of idealism, which the the OP of TheFamilyAlpha espouses. TheFamilyAlpha is a true idealist.

    I think there is this thing about converting AFC Blue Pill Guys, v.s. speaking to the crowd going on here. TheFamilyAlpha is speaking to the crowd of the Red Pill Advocates.

    This is not a criticism. It is just a notation, that the Red Pill resonates with Red Pill guys. Guys that have not been Blue Pill.

    Cool essay, Rollo. And cool cite by Rugby11 earlier today. I love some of TheFamilyAlpha’s prose in his original essay. Me not being a commoner. I truly understand and resonate with this stuff, and I really understand my former cites of Deida being resisted (albeit not the Purple pill in my book–red pill proto-history i show I see it), under the rubric that girls don’t even always hold up their part of the bargain for Blue Pill chumps, nor can they be expected to. Barreling through that with a Red Pill mindset and Game, gets a man further.

    Life is beautiful. It is not crappy with a good Red Pill mindset in place. Moving toward Alpha is the thing.

    I literally had three Peak Experience days in the last week, getting out in nature and being with my John Deere 83 HP tractor. I’m ready to explode from the dopamine dump. Gods help me.

  3. I’m now at the point in my own game and Red Pill development where I now recognise what’s going on and what the correct response to any number of social sexual situations with women should be.

    It used to be when I went out I was conscious of ” is this attraction or comfort”?

    It’s now at that point where if I fuck it up I know the correct response or reaction.

    I feel more natural but also do get frustrated or down by rejection.

    I’m now working hard moving past the “did anyone notice that beta move” to self correcting quickly.

    The idea of a relationship or ltr being a goal is no longer a part of my thinking.

    I can have meaningful sexual interactions as long as I am authentic In them.that is to say…I’m not pretending to be interested in more.

    This authenticity means I have better experiences with women and when it goes South my resction is something I can be proud of.

    I read and comment elsewhere as well on field roports where a guy hits a wall with the girl he’s gaming: she flakes …she’s contacting an ex…she has a lot of orbiters and male friends…and I know what it’s like and how to respond.

    I used to be literally terrified of being seen as beta by a girl I’m gaming. Now I’ve reached a point where that convergence of internal and external game have helped me live a more balanced life…

    The highs aren’t out of control and the lows are manageable.

  4. The Family Alpha writes well, and his contentions are difficult to refute. But for most men, his advice simply will not work. Yes, the Burden of Performance falls only on men. A man can improve himself to his best, and still his marriage/LTR will suck. Why? The 7th Iron Rule, of course.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/08/rooting-through-garbage/

    (See also Rollo’s epic Reconstruction series.)

    And there will come the time, I say inevitably for the unplugged man, when he will truly ponder the question “is the juice worth the squeeze?”.

    The recently hurt Blue Pill Guy needs time and subtle encouragement to get over the loss of his lemon and thinking he’ll never get another one ever again, to looking forward to and getting lots of oranges instead.

  5. >> Red Pill awareness leads to the anger and resentment that causes men to limit themselves with women

    Hmmm. This takes me a minute to take in… I know these guys. The MGTOW guys. And the “they’re all hypergamous bitches” types.

    For me… there is only awareness. If you’re aware, if you can truly see, you are probably “red pill.” But there isn’t “red pill awareness.” If you’re really aware, you’re probably not MGTOW or bitter “they’re all sluts” type of guys.

    If you can see… it’s about what you want to do with what you can see??? That might scare you (MGTOW) or make your mad (haters)… but that’s not the only response available.

    >> In the middle of this we have men who’ve found a new balance in their lives because they became Red Pill aware and created a new, healthier paradigm for themselves with it

    It was GAME that brought me into awareness of women. Game… and most definitely other men sharing what they know. Like we’re doing here.

    I won’t make big claims as to how healthy I am, but I can see women better than I ever have… and it’s no coincidence that I have more access to them than I ever have, as well. I’m getting old… but I’ve never had this much access to women… all of them 10-20 years younger than me.

    GAME has been the key to my education. I think 1/2* of the great seducers were essentially “aware” (they “got it”), and that was why they had the control and options with women that they did.

    GAME is the path to the “middle ground” where you are neither isolated nor hamstrung. It’s about the SKILL/KNOWLEDGE that brings choice and opportunity, and the “fresh air” that having choice/opportunity brings.

    Viva daygame.

    (*… the second 1/2 of seducers are what I would call “Purple Pill” types, in terms of their internal psychology… and they are the type that talk Blue Pill, but act Red Pill, and don’t realize that contradiction. They are deadly-good seducers, as they talk Disney but fuck like cads, and they believe their own bullshit, and that takes them very far indeed.)

  6. Rolo is missing that there is not only understanding how intersexual dynamics work, but it is more important to take in to account how man’s neurochemistry changes when he is introduced to responsive female with SMV high enough.
    Therefore reference should be made to addictive substances or activities like gambling, which also gives men high.
    One may enjoy gambling or alcohol and to some men in reasonable quantities gambling and alcohol does no harm. However it is common knowledge that for most men overindulging may lead to addiction very fast.
    There is solid evidence available that even red pill man will succumb to his changed neurochemistry and in retrospect will be baffled what came over him and why he did all those stupid things all over again. Man’s own body is his enemy in this regard making him to do thigs which rationally harm him and if female walks out of him, punishes him on neurochemical level. Suffering introduced on biochemistry level is responsible for “pitiable Beta men just this side of suicidal over average HB 5-6 women” not Beta’s lack of wisdom.
    Chemicals introduced in system are responsible for suffering and inability to get over “that woman” not week will or lack of red pill knowledge. Fucking 20 low SMV women will do nothing to alleviate suffering introduced, human neurochemistry does not work in this way. Replacement therapy could only work if bonding mechanism is triggered again by high SMV women showing interest, but that as well may be rinse and repeat.
    Keep in mind that one cannot battle chemistry introduced in system with willpower or understanding how things work, more successfully than one may regulate heartrate at will.
    Not all men are made equal, some will not fall a victim to nature’s cruel chemical play and some will succumb and suffer every time. Not knowing patient no treatment can be prescribed. For some MGTOW may be only way to avoid suffering. Don’t you think that getting away from women may have been as good reason for some monks to join monastery as to devote themselves to god’s service?
    There is brilliant podcast series with Dr Doughlas J. Lisle on Blog Talk Radio BeatYourGenes explaining how nature conspires to make men do things which are not objectively in their best interest http://www.blogtalkradio.com/beatyourgenes

  7. Lack of understanding makes men much more prone to making detrimental decisions. Weaker will also plays a role. There’s nothing wrong with ” feeling ” a certain way around what one perceives as a high smv woman, but understanding intersexual dynamics could/should prevent one from engaging in the rampant pedestalization that is far, far too common.

    Will and understanding can always be strengthened. That’s how a man was put on the moon.

    Ever heard the phrase ” working yourself up “? How you react to what you perceive is always going to be key. A man fools himself into oneitis over a particular broad. It is truly all in your head, even if the consequent pain is very real.

  8. “The core tenet of MGTOW (at least from what I gleaned from /r/mgtow) is NOT rejecting sex, it is rejecting relationships.”

    Nor is MGTOW necessarily about avoiding all contact with women. The definition is mainly about limiting legal and emotional ties to women. So marriage is definitely off limits. Having children probably too, and also living with women.

    But this site seems to be saying most men ultimately can and should become “Alpha”. Is this even possible? Surely throughout history most men have been Beta? Albeit the average Beta man, even in the recent past, would have been more masculine/Alpha than what is typical now in the West.

  9. The first step in accomplishing anything in life is first understanding that it is possible.

  10. Rhetorical question: was Briseis Achilles’ ONEITIS?

    The idealization of a specific woman is, at root, an idealization of self. Remove the specific woman and the self crumbles–tragically.

    Not all idols are as obvious as a soapstone figurine.

  11. @ AD

    Good article. Instagram is in many ways the new porn. Average chicks can garner attention well outside of what their true smv dictates, and highly beta/thirsty males can express their desires in ” real time “.

    This is an absolutely horrible development in society, turbocharging the pedestalization of everything female and making the pseudo masculine subservient.

  12. I think Family Alpha’s post shows we are still in a transitional phase where women can operate under the new set of books while still getting men to act under the old set of books when it conveniences them.

    Even a redpiller like FA advices for men to hold out for ‘love’, I wonder how much love she’ll have for you when your the 40th or 100th cab off the ranks.

    Rollo’s advice is more apt, kill the beta, knock off the idol and have sex on your terms.

    Given the nature of social inertia I wonder how long it will take for men to fully immerse themselves under the new set of books that women are playing by.

    With all the post wall women (>35) I’m surrounded by struggling to lock down a husband I think the chain of whispers is starting to reach the Betas’ ears.

  13. “Keep in mind that one cannot battle chemistry introduced in system with willpower or understanding how things work, more successfully than one may regulate heartrate at will.”

    Epigenetics is a wonderful thing, I’m thinking all it will take is two generations of enough men to see women fucking around like Banshees to start correcting dopamine fluctuations. Heck, getting it shoved in your face a couple of times by a cheating loved one will usually suffice.

  14. Regulate heart rate…. Meditation.

    Lol.

    Of course this requires practice and understanding. There’s that damn word again.

  15. @CSI

    “But this site seems to be saying most men ultimately can and should become “Alpha”. Is this even possible? Surely throughout history most men have been Beta?”

    “The first step in accomplishing anything in life is first understanding that it is possible.”–Blaximus

    It doesn’t hurt to have goals. Some of which should include for men: be more Alpha, be more masculine and be more attractive to a woman. A common saying on MRP reddit is: “Be attractive, don’t be unattractive.”

    Yep MGTOW holds limiting beliefs of both men’s and women’s capacities.

    I like TFA’s and Rollo’s and Blaximus’ Limitlessness

    The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it. –Rollo in The Isolationists

    Bear this truth in mind, you do not buy into a good marriage or LTR, you create one, you build one. Your sweet little Good Girl who grew up in the Amish Dutch Country is just as hypergamous as the club slut you nailed last night. Different girls, different contexts, same hypergamy. You may have enough experience to know a woman who’d make a good foundation, but you ultimately build your own marriage/monogamy based on your own strengths or dissolve it based on inherent flaws – there are no pre-fab marriages. –Rollo in Relational Equity

    Supplemental reading for @CSI:

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/11/02/alpha-tells/

    .

    “What critics of an Alpha/Beta dichotomy conveniently sweep under the conversational carpet is that the dichotomy they want to debate only exists in their convenient, personal interpretations of Alpha or Beta mean to them.

    From a male perspective we can endlessly debate (from our own personal biases) what we believe constitutes an Alpha state (remember, an abstract term, stay with me here) and the expectations of which we think women should respond to according to those expectation. But it’s women’s instinctive behaviors around Alpha men (or men they contextually perceive so) that provide us with the tells as to how she perceives a man’s Alpha or Beta status.

    For as much as we believe women should respond to our definition of Alpha – and despite how women will explain they agree with those self-prescribed definitions – as always, it is their behaviors when in the presence of, or in a relationship with men they perceive as being Alpha (or of higher sexual market value than themselves if you prefer) that they bely their true, instinctual recognitions of Alpha.”

  16. @Limitless, I did try to account for the biological intricacies of ONEitis in the Independent link in this essay. I do agree that it plays an intrinsic role in men’s struggle to “get over” a high value ex, but the real twist here is how men are conditioned to believe that any woman, even the most mediocre, is always higer SMV than himself.

    That’s Blue Pill conditioning intended to maximally limit men’s sexual selection (i.e. ONEitis preconditioning) while maximally un-restricting women’s sexual selection potential. In a way the Feminine Imperative uses men’s biological response to loss and rejection by attaching it to lower value women via conditioning him to pedestalize (idolize) women as always being above his own value.

    Essentially Beta men get a double whammy; they have to struggle with their biological/Psychological response AND their Blue Pill preconditioning response to that rejection.

  17. “Essentially Beta men get a double whammy; they have to struggle with their biological/Psychological response AND their Blue Pill preconditioning response to that rejection.”

  18. @Days of Game: “… I know these guys. The MGTOW guys.”

    No, you don’t. You know a subset of them.

    @SJB: “Rhetorical question: was Briseis Achilles’ ONEITIS?”

    Briseis was a rhetorical device. The mirror of Helen. There they were fighting at Troy over an issue of property and respect, and Agamemnon did to Achilles what Paris had done to Menelaus.

    It’s part of the morality play.

  19. This post resonates with me as did TFA’s article you are referencing. Been reading both of your blogs along with TRP for about a year now. I am a classic example of being turned on to the Manoshpere after being cheated on by my wife and divorcing her. I lost my house, my kids half the time and shit ton of money in the process.

    I find myself still stuck in the anger phase of swallowing the RP at times. I go through stretches of time where I think I am out of that phase, but it still is lurking inside. RP and Rational male have helped me in terms of learning how to be more bold and assertive with women. In fact, after swallowing the pill last year, I had a great run where I banged 8 different women over a 6 month period.

    That felt good to get back out there and game women. I had totally lost touch of how to do that because while being a married blue pill type guy, I never really flirted with other women out of respect for my wife and my marriage. I realize now what a mistake that was.

    Now though, I am at a crossroads on how I want to proceed in this journey. TFA’s post hit home because I still won’t allow myself to feel anything for the women I am dating/fucking. I’ve been seeing one regularly for the last 4 months and while I haven’t committed to her, I may as well have since it has become a de facto monogamous relationship. I have been very aware not to communicate with her on her terms, but I lose frame at times. That seems to be the hardest thing for me to master……….FRAME! i suppose it will just take time and experience to get to a level where I am always coming from a masculine frame when dealing with women.

  20. @Limitless

    Interesting point about the chemicals in a man’s brain causing him to act in a manner that’s against his own self-interest. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately since Dalrock posted this video on his site: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO1WccH2_YM
    (If the link doesn’t work, go to youtube and search for “common cuckoo ejects”)

    The video shows a cuckoo egg deposited in a reed warbler’s nest. The cuckoo chick hatches and then proceeds to eject the reed warbler eggs out of the nest. (I think it is well worth the watch btw because it will piss you off). The adult reed warblers then care for the cuckoo chick. Here’s the part that relates to hacking of the brain – the adult reed warblers love the cuckoo chick. Despite the fact that it killed the reed warbler’s offspring, if you were to mess with the cuckoo chick, the reed warblers would rush to its defense because they love the murderer of their own children. In fact, there are videos of adult reed warblers watching a cuckoo chick throw out eggs from the nest and they do nothing about it because their brains have been “hacked” to love the cuckoo.

    Reed warblers do not have sufficient realization of the actual facts or intelligence to overcome the hard wiring of their brains. I believe, however, that human beings do and that they can overcome it once they learn of and reflect upon the actual facts.

  21. @kfg: Briseis was a rhetorical device.

    Truth. I think that’s what pisses women (feminists) off the most–when they realize (dimly) what they represent is not what they are . . . and then get ticked off further when realizing dissociation from what they represent leaves them as nothing.

  22. A link that is somewhat OT – a way to help you find the mental force to kill your one-itis idol. Remember that women can often be mercurial to the max, and regret something almost as soon as they do it – in this case, cutting their hair short on a stupid whim:

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/beauty/why-cutting-off-all-my-hair-was-the-worst-decision-i-ever-made/ar-BBCzVtg?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

    And then, if it’s you who’s dating them, it’s YOUR fault for letting them do it, even if they never spoke of it to you.

    Especially when they find out the hard way the hair doesn’t grow back as fast or as thick the second time, as authoress is now learning to her ginned-up writer-ly chagrin.

    Yes in my Blue Period Word Salad days I would be dealt blame for such impulse decisions by a main squeeze du jour, along the lines of “you should have known and tried to stop me”.

    I didn’t think I was all that unique when, upon learning of the existence of TRP, my anger vanished rather than intensified. Prior to that I was really angry and frustrated because the BP social programming didn’t make sense, everything I tried in obedience to it made things worse.
    Once immersed in TRP it all began to make sense. There were reasons I had been seeing what I saw. Then it was up to me to sort it all out, and move on, now having a firmer grasp on WHAT IS.

  23. @SJB – interesting statement but having trouble understanding its full implications… can you expound?

  24. “And then, if it’s you who’s dating them, it’s YOUR fault for letting them do it . . .”

    Since the Trojan war has come up again, I’ll bring this up again:

    The war happened because three women were having a cat fight over which one of them was the prettiest, and found a man to blame for the consequences. Same as it ever was.

    My hair falls below my shoulder blades and I’ve had women come up to me and run their fingers through it and go, “Oooooooooo” (do you think that’s an IOI?). I’ve been thinking of getting a butch bristle cut for pragmatic reasons, and I think the chief thing stopping me is knowing what I’ll have to go through while it’s growing back out again. Short is fine, long is fine, but moderation in hair length is a 24/7 annoyance.

  25. ” . . . interesting statement but having trouble understanding its full implications… ”

    It was in my comment. The Trojan war wasn’t the Gamma raging of a jilted husband. It was about the disrespect of a Beta prince guest stealing a valuable piece of property from his Alpha Warrior King host.

    Helen was just an object, a McGuffin really, to set up the morality play. It wasn’t all about her. She could have been replaced by any object that was a symbol of power, and in some versions of the play, she is.

  26. sjb/kfg – this is what I’m trying to understand:

    “… when they realize (dimly) what they represent is not what they are . . . and then get ticked off further when realizing dissociation from what they represent leaves them as nothing…”

    trying to get what you meant by “not being what they represent” but is that from their own POV or the man’s?

    I could fill in the blanks all kinds of ways but my assumptions may be wrong, trying to grasp your meaning as you intended

  27. @Dr. Zipper:

    A woman does not want to see a man’s idealization of her because she does not understand it. There is no empathy for it, because she does not possess it. She’s Not Like That.

    Seeing it creeps her out.

  28. @Rollo Tomassi

    >> the real twist here is how men are conditioned to believe that any woman, even the most mediocre, is always higher SMV than himself.

    Hmmm.

    I’m high on the word “Patriarch” right now… it’s most beautiful meaning.

    I think it is a occupational hazard of an aspiring Patriarch that could cause him think like this… maybe he ebbs/flows on this topic of his relative SMV, but it’s his BEHAVIORS that make it so.

    If our Proud Patriarch is trying to lead, to provide order, to protect, etc., that sense of love for those in his charge, could lead him to BEHAVIORS that corrupt his own position, his psychology, his sense of power and place in the SMP.

    If the Patriarch takes the pleas of his charges too seriously, he can end up being a servant, not a leader. Once he is a servant… his SMV plummets.

    And the difference is BOUNDARIES. Boundaries about what types of needs he’s interested in entertaining. And psychological boundaries about what it means to him when a noisy plea goes unmet.

    If she cries because she doesn’t get what he wants… what does he do with that? Does he smile, tell her it’ll be okay, and to “get in the car, we’re going to dinner now.” Or does he listen, stroke her hair, and then “fuck her open to god.”

    Or… does he yell, and then cave in later, and then worry the whole time if he did the right thing.

    And she sees all this and knows he has been played. And he knows he got played. But… he does the same thing next week. Why? Because he has proven, to himself and to the girl, that he is low SMV. He is low SMV because he keeps doing things he doesn’t want to do… unhelpful things for his tribe and for his own mission. And he is low SMV because he capitulates to those pleas… instead of enforcing his boundaries and/or… moving on to a situation that is more worth his time/resources/effort.

  29. ” A woman does not want to see a man’s idealization of her because she does not understand it. There is no empathy for it, because she does not possess it. She’s Not Like That.

    Seeing it creeps her out.”

    This right here is the Gospel Truth.

  30. @ dr. zipper

    Look at it like this, aside from all of the ” Strong Independent Woman ” b.s., and the ” Women are Equal to Men ” nonsense, a majority of women are naturally filled with self doubt. They aren’t truly capable of figuring themselves out. Introspection is never their strong suit.

    So they become master façade builders.

    And because most males will voluntarily play along, it works out well ( for them ). But when men ” Go off script ” ( in this case idealizing ), it rattles the shit out of them and makes them uncomfortable. They know they aren’t all that. Pressure.

    Like, if I kept saying that I KNOW you are better at shooting 3 pointers than Steph Curry, and I praised you for it consistently.

    …. and you don’t even like basketball, and have no idea who the hell Curry is.

    It’s that self doubt that can work in a man’s favor if he plays it correctly. You can also use it to bring a woman back in line, mentally.

  31. There is no female equivalent of men’s idealization of women. Women of course idealize men, but they do so on an individualized scope. Men idealize the gestalt idea of women. Remember, women’s concept of love is based on opportunism – it is all inward focused. Men’s concept of love is idealistic – love for the sake of love and ideally free from the Burden of Performance to achieve it or maintain it – it is outward facing.

  32. Hey people what do you wanna bet that stupid fucking statue is 60000 year old body positivism?

    I didn’t like that fucking thing when I first saw it at 10 years of age, and I don’t like it NOW.

    Notice how it doesn’t have a face either?

  33. “Women would rather be objectified than idealized.”

    And yet, strip away the idealization and . . . “wait a minute, I’m being objectified.

    What? You thought that by saying “OK honey, if it will make you happy, I’ll play by your rules,” you could win?

    Silly boy. The point of women’s rules is for women to win. As soon as a man tries to play by them he just looks like a dumbass killing himself because he’s to stupid to know that guns have bullets in them. Now there’s an image for a woman to respect, eh?

    ” . . . a majority of women are naturally filled with self doubt. They aren’t truly capable of figuring themselves out. Introspection is never their strong suit.”

    The Iliad does something that’s pretty interesting, at a couple of points it cuts away from the action to give Helen an inner voice, quite realistically:

    And she’s a fucking mess.

    She’s come to realize that the whole thing was a consequence of her behavior (she went with Paris willingly), and she deeply regrets it, but, ya know, it “just happened.” And she can’t understand why. Doesn’t make any sense to her. She had a good life, a good husband and wishes she could have them back. On the other hand, as she watches from the wall as Hector and Menelaus duel for her, she also understands that she isn’t an actor. She’s just a trophy. An object.

    And so the wheel of hamster spins and lands on – suicidal ideation.

  34. “Hey people what do you wanna bet that stupid fucking statue is 60000 year old body positivism?”

    You’re blowing it a bit out proportion. It’s only 30,000 years old.

    “Notice how it doesn’t have a face either?”

    First thing that popped into my head the first time I ran across a woman saying, “See, men have really always liked fat women” was:

    Yeah, with her feet cut off and a bag over her head.

  35. thanks fellas, makes sense to me now

    and Blax, your “self doubt that can work in a man’s favor” sounds like Dread would be an example of that, no?

    if anyone has any anecdotes or specific other ways to make that self doubt work, please post them up

  36. “if anyone has any anecdotes or specific other ways to make that self doubt work, please post them up”

    I’ll second that. Not sure how to play it.

  37. lol, Ton, I’m sure your answer would work anywhere, anytime, especially if *you* delivered it

    if Dread works because of the doubt created in a woman about her ability to keep the man, what about other self doubts that Blax mentioned?

    negs can viewed this way but those tend to be tailored to suit a particular woman (mention her makeup or large ass to agitate her anxieties) in that moment

    what I’m thinking is that Dread is more universal… are there any other self doubts in the general nature of women that can be leveraged to the MI’s advantage?

  38. @DZ, applicable self doubts

    That she is fungible
    That she is past her prime and not ever going to get any better than she is when she woke up this morning
    That anything that comprises her self identity may not be all that important to anyone
    That you even notice her

  39. ” negs can viewed this way but those tend to be tailored to suit a particular woman (mention her makeup or large ass to agitate her anxieties) in that moment ”

    Lol, ” large ass ” is a compliment in my circles.

    The makeup thing is a sure bet. Just the fact that a woman wears noticeable makeup gives a man an ” in “. They agonize over shades and color and application. Lol. ” hey, that shade of lipstick isn’t flattering on you ” will have them contemplating the rest of the day ( if they don’t downright change the lipstick ).

    They doubt quite a bit. They will not share this with you though. You have to watch for the signs.

    Calling them names – ” Jealous, meanspririted, heartless ” and the like, have an effect on them as long as they aren’t in IDGAF mode. You can’t hit them with these in the heat of an argument. It has to be matter-of-fact and out of the blue. Something personal…. the tone of her voice. One eye/tit obviously larger than the other. Resting Bitch Face ( lol, I hit all of my goddaughters with that one ).

    Withdrawing from them will have them thinking hard. The doubts will flow automatically, but they will be self doubts. Place another woman on the periphery, and hold on tight.

    Façade.

    Women are indeed self delusional, but that delusion is built on a foundation of sand.

  40. excellent, Agent P (did you get your handle from Phineas & Ferb?)

    the doubt a woman has about her ability to keep the man is exploited by getting her to think she is easily replaced if she’s a bad girl (true or false doesn’t matter, it still induces Dread); a specific example might be dressing differently, hanging with friends more, openly flirting with other women, etc.; then her doubts will fill in the blanks to the man’s advantage

    what might be the tactic to take advantage of a woman’s fear of being past her prime? or any other of those self doubts listed?

    not wanting to beat it to death here, just hoping for some field experience perspectives

  41. “what might be the tactic to take advantage of a woman’s fear of being past her prime?”

    Don’t pretend you don’t notice that younger, hotter woman.

  42. fuck yeah, Blax, now that’s what I’m talking about!! (and I did have second thoughts on the large ass bit lol); I’ve used the makeup angle before but only to keep a bitch in her place, not to secure the lay, though they are closely related

    @kfg, you hacked my phone pix! she was asking me which to use as a cum rag

  43. “They doubt quite a bit.”

    If you look around you’ll find many webpages where attractive young women will post pictures of themselves and lament how ugly they are, hugely magnifying all their flaws. Every tiny fold of fat, their small breasts – of course most men don’t care all that much about the breast size, provided they are firm. I guess this insecurity is commonplace among women.

    And then you’ll see posts from older ladies who say how they look at old pictures of themselves and wonder what they hell they were thinking when they thought they were ugly at the time.

  44. @Dr. Zipper: “she was asking me which to use as a cum rag”

    Well what else is the one in your left good for? Please tell me your mother gave that to you.
    The one in your right is too good looking for that, at least on a woman who actually has tits. Maybe you should just give it to your hot friend.

  45. @ dr. zipper

    I’ll share with you some unintended doubt/dread that I witnessed in my wife recently.

    I recently lost some weight. I did it because I was experiencing joint/shoulder issues, primarily from being unbalanced in muscularity. So I changed my diet and stopped lifting extremely heavy, laid off of pounding the heavy bag so much, and I’m slimming down greatly.

    Shoulder feels great.

    One of the side effects is that I actually look younger. Every female that comes into my home comments on the weight loss and looking younger. Right in front of the wife.

    Wifey took up lifting, running and yoga. She’s looking younger also. I figured ” good for us “. But a pattern is developing. We have a very active sex life, but we aren’t 20 somethings, so there’s not a whole lot of making out like young folks. We just get down to business. Lol.

    Recently, within the past 3 or 4 months, she wants to kiss more, make out ,more, always slapping me on the ass and running her hands all over. I have been converted into a ” yoga pants ” fan. He he heee….

    She’s more physical. She stays closer. She’s always laughing and smiling.

    The only thing that changed is the weight loss ( new clothes too as the old ones were falling off of me ) and women commenting. Young women.

    She says that she feels really good, and then volunteered that the yoga seems to arouse her to a great degree ( that shit arouses me also ).

    But…

    After one early morning marathon sex session, she got up to shower and said as she left the room ” Pfftttt… young bitches ain’t got nothing on me “.

    That window into her thoughts popped open for just a minute. And that’s all I needed.

  46. good lord, kfg, now you’re just fuckin with me

    re: your cum rag suggestions…

    first one yes, just my style
    second one no, unless I get some alcohol first

    again, thanks Blax for the insights, good stuff

  47. …and said as she left the room ” Pfftttt… young bitches ain’t got nothing on me “.
    That window into her thoughts popped open for just a minute. And that’s all I needed.

    Dr. Zipper and Roused were asking for concrete examples of dread, but soft dread is a little more capricious and needs to come up less forced than a neg or backhanded complement. It has to be more organic. As in Blaximus’ report as well as in Rollo’s essay Soft Dread. What Mrs. Blaximus “experienced that morning was sort of de facto association of social proof ….in the form of soft dread….A dread that needs no emphasis or prompting from a Man, simply the occasion for it to come to the surface to be actualized.” (Rollo’s words in the Soft Dread essay. Read that again. Rollo had an organic report of Soft Dread similar to Blax’s.)

    I know Roused was telling me offline that he had a minor fail when trying to generate this when his girlfriend was choosing wardrobe options, with comments from him. And it failed. I think he was probably trying to actually Neg, rather than let her own insecurities be generated by her, via a man’s demonstrating “Maintaining his Frame, the foundations of which are rooted in limiting or removing his sexual agency and demonstrating higher value as a part of that process”. By covertly letting her find out her sexual agency is at risk. In other words Mrs. Blaximus was in slight dread of losing her sexual appeal because of Blax having Good Frame and having made himself more attractive with more social proof, and the tableau played out in Soft Dread. Without him voicing it or forcing it, just letting it play out. (With all two principle players knowing what game is being played here.)

  48. @Dr. Zipper: “good lord, kfg, now you’re just fuckin with me”

    And it’s more fun when you help, but at least you get it. I don’t know which is worse, the person who takes it straight and literally, or the person who just gives me the blank stare of a pithed frog.

  49. Blax

    Recently, within the past 3 or 4 months, she wants to kiss more, make out ,more, always slapping me on the ass and running her hands all over.

    The margin for “error” is slight when your girl is used to The Full Package ™. It doesn’t even register on you, because she is mostly going along with the flow… there is enough Alpha and attraction built up. Buuuuuut that little bit, that 2-5% that was off… It hits her hindbrain. it hits it. That was part of the old discussion we were having with Deep Conversion… the decay period. How long is it? How long do you have? So here you have some realtime feedback.. you shed not a lot of weight, but Mama is way more happy…. It’s not just dread.

    I had a similar experience. Went from what I thought was an acceptable “thicker” frame, an athletic 195… still good upper body definition, strong, playing an athletic sport weekly at a high level… Looked fine in a suit. But there was some soft flab around the middle. Not a gut, but not clear abs… Well I dropped to a fairly ripped 175…

    Now one post session spooning (big spoon please…) one of those insights pops out from her… something to the effect of she didn’t like when the soft stomach touched her back… now it was all hard ripply… I was like holy shit… she never ever mention anything over a period of like 8 years…

    She was used to me at our meeting proportions (175) and epxected that to continue, at least from the hindbrain… Was interesting.

    This was on top of abundant dread from her friends, waitresses I knew, going out etc…

    What was your physique when you met her?

  50. @ Sentient

    ” The margin for “error” is slight when your girl is used to The Full Package ™. It doesn’t even register on you, because she is mostly going along with the flow… there is enough Alpha and attraction built up. Buuuuuut that little bit, that 2-5% that was off… It hits her hindbrain. it hits it.

    Hmmm… that makes a lot of sense.

    When I met wifey, years before we were dating, I was going full throttle at the gym. I think I weighed in at about 185 give or take, and I never measured my bodyfat %, but it had to be crazy low as I had a damn 8 pack, lol, and I looked like a roadmap of vascularity.

    When we married I had grown to 200 exactly. I was moving into Monster territory. About 5 years into our union, I was pushing 240 and stayed there for a decade. But, lol, my super low bodyfat thing changed and the 8 pack turned into a 6 pack, and then just a vague, shadowy memory that was only visible under certain lighting conditions.

    She never had anything negative to say. I was strong as FUCK!! Then I fucked up my back. She was cleaning one day, and being the raging bull that I was, I lifted a bookcase full of books… a 5 foot tall, 4 foot wide oak bookcase, and carried it across the room. The next day and most of the next week I couldn’t get out of bed. It was all I could do to walk, so I didn’t lift anything for 9 months. I stayed at 240, but I was round and smooth and had a smallish belly.

    I recovered eventually, but I never got cut up again. Most of the belly was gone and I had just enough definition, but nothing at all like before I hurt myself.

    This morning ( I weigh every day, even though I know you’re not supposed to do that ) I came in at 201.5. Wifey started getting super handsy at 210.

    ” She was used to me at our meeting proportions (175) and epxected that to continue, at least from the hindbrain… Was interesting.”

    I’d never looked at it from this perspective before. See, this right here illustrates just how easily we can slip up. My attitude was ” In due time I’ll accomplish what I want physically “, but because she didn’t appear to find anything negative I gave no fucks..lol.

    She hasn’t said too much though, except for that ” Young Bitches ” comment. She’s been demonstrating like a motherfucker, instead of explicating. She’s up @ 5 am every morning, and off to the gym ( she finds my home gym boring, no tv, and cold ). But man, it’s that yoga shit… I walk into a room and she’d doing some kind of inverted spit thing, just holding it…forever…

    What were we talking about?

    So yeah, evidently I’d lost a couple of imperceptible steps over the years. I mean, you can get fooled somewhat by the random hottie on the streets telling you that you’re ” hawt “, but the one that’s been there all along sees all.

    That 2-5%.

    Burden.

    Lol.

  51. Great post. As usual the picture is apt and rather funny. Those idols ultimately typically manifest themselves to be as grotesque as the statue. Boy, haven’t we made such statues in or minds in times past, but no more as long a we remember it is a slippery slope, a rabbit hole easily slipped down if discernment isn’t consistently practiced. “Alpha” is fragile as it must be regularly honed. We are each like a sharp edge that must be maintained if used. And lack of use will dull our edge just as surely as corrosion of a fine blade. And these inward thoughts on Alpha bring to mind the true nature of our relationship with women because we must manage women and manage our thoughts of them as well as our thoughts of ourselves. Each is born to be his own master, not the servant of women, one or all.

  52. @Sentient @Blax – very interesting discussion on the 2-5%. Interesting to read about the effect of such minor changes to the baseline, *even if* things are otherwise going well.

    Now you guys were AF when you met your wives but presumably if some guy in a BP marriage goes up the scale and improves himself in a similar way that’s when strong Dread kicks off (like with the married guys who post here about turning their marriages around)?

    I’m speculating here but presumably that kind of 2-5% improvement/decay won’t be noticeable to the same extent in a BP marriage, because a guy likes that needs to make more of an important for it to be registered properly by his wife..?

  53. @CS
    a small percentage move like that may well be noticed in a BP marriage but it won’t carry the same effect as it does for Blax. An AFC may be improving himself but if’s he’s been a softy Beta for along while there’s no way he’ll sail into Alpha territory just by dropping a few pounds. It has to be the whole show, dominance, muscle mass, fun attitude, DPA and all of that before he will start to get any kind of traction. Otherwise it’s not congruent to a her that he is an Alpha.

    Thus it’s always easier for an AFC to become an Alpha chad by going monk mode, breaking off contact from his previous contacts if possible, entirely recalibrating, then jumping back into social circles. With his own wife, an AFC always carries a legacy cost, good or bad and there’s is some shit she’ll never let go of that can pollute a man’s potential in her eye’s.

    Plus, when an AFC BP guy starts making a transformation to something else, something better, Mrs Wifey may well at first simply not believe he has the stones to go the distance. At first it can almost be a self imposed shit test where a guy focuses on improvement but stumbles along the way, which becomes proof positive that he IS a loser to the wife.Which in turn means he has no options other than her which cements her “power” in the dynamic of the relationship. AFC must overcome repeated obstacles for a while to begin to achieve any kind of credibility.

    Athol’s notion of one month of “fixing” for every year of prior relationship is not a bad rule of thumb for overcoming AFC status. It takes a long while to move the needle on being a congruent Alpha. Even then, crab bucket mentality tends to keep the wife from believing until she see’s shit with her own eye’s, unprompted, namely full in field dread where other women are responding to her man positively. Only then will the bell ring for her and even then it simply means she’ll start dialling up the shit tests to check for congruency of Alpha. Which is of course a good sign.

    The flak is always heaviest over the target as they say.

  54. The core tenet of MGTOW (at least from what I gleaned from /r/mgtow) is NOT rejecting sex, it is rejecting relationships.

    If we discount prostitution, the majority of men are unable to get sex outside relationships. That’s the reality of the sexual marketplace. This isn’t meant as an argument against MGTOW.

  55. @kfg

    “Since the Trojan war has come up again, I’ll bring this up again:

    The war happened because three women were having a cat fight over which one of them was the prettiest, and found a man to blame for the consequences. Same as it ever was.”

    The story is so good every one can find in it what he likes. Women=”let you and him fight for me,” betas=”muh lady! I’m gonna save you and muh honor,” alphas=helen means torching ships in greek, getting dangerous sea territory and war spoils etc.

    @dr zipper

    “if anyone has any anecdotes or specific other ways to make that self doubt work, please post them up”

    have you read the “The 12 Levels of Dread” at TRP?

    The core idea is to increase your SMV as much as possible.

    From a game perspective I think the most important is to learn how to be good at the first stages of pick up(ie, attraction). Cold reading, merging sets, ect, are things that can be done without showing a lot sexual intent(= no big risk of rejection), but still giving you preselection when you are being seen doing them.

    A very good example is Tyler’s video in Hotseat at home “Full Infield New”(?). The first “warm up” sets he does on the street are great for showing this. You should definitevely torrent this.
    (please don’t become fat like him though lol, that’s a no)

    ps: I don’t know your age, if you are using social media they can be a massive tool if used correctly. If you want me I could write my experience with this.

  56. See, this right here illustrates just how easily we can slip up. My attitude was ” In due time I’ll accomplish what I want physically “

    This is why middle aged men particularly need to get a move on it as soon as they learn red pill truths. Waiting for a sunny day can drag on until nothing happens.

    Definition of a middle aged man: He’s always thinking that in two weeks he will feel just as good as ever.

  57. “Feminists are tearing each other apart, right before our very eyes. This time it’s Skinnies v Fatties.”

    Is it, really?

    Shit gets complicated when the intersectionalists step into the arena of the Oppression Olympics. It has been claimed that the War on Obesity(tm) is just a hidden method of Institutional Racism(tm) by skinny, upper class white bitches against lower class Blacks and Hispanics.

  58. @anon01: The story is so good every one can find in it what he likes.

    Indeed. I find the idealization of excellence very helpful. Rollo was clever to juxtapose idolization and idealization; the latter can be helpful while the former rarely so.

  59. I think women, particularly the older crowd on an intuitive level are starting to get afraid of men waking up to the realities of their true nature. So much so that their only solution now is to resort to ‘spirituality’ so as to try to get blue pill guys to give up on the ‘natural’ perspective and to instead, ‘look at the heart’ so as to better explain and rationalise the whole process and as a catch all to every screwed up situation.

    You’ve broken up? – “Your soul contract has expired”

    Your partner no longer loves you? – “You heart knows what the heart knows.”

    You partner wasn’t right for you? – “Learn to love yourself first and read more Eckhart Tolle”

    Your partner has put on weight?” – “Inner beauty is what matters”

    Seeing it all over Facebook as memes and reading pointless articles on it and often posted by women approaching the wall, makes it all the more sad to see.

  60. @Limitless

    I agree that there is a biological/evolutionary drive towards oneitis (which Rollo disagrees with), even with average women. But men also have an innate desire to hold frame. It is just that modern society encourages the first set of behaviors, while discouraging the second. And of course the biological purpose of frame control (steady leadership in a dangerous wilderness envirinment) is largely gone. So men need to consciously choose to cultivate frame and other alpha traits. Past generations of men understood this, but feminists have ensured that the mainstream culture only encourage beta traits. And so we end up with men trying to figure stuff out in places like this, just to be whole.

    A lot of men would probably be happy giving up on frame altogether, but you can not have healthy relationships with women without it.

  61. @Rollo, Limitless and Boxcar:
    I would say that the bio-evo drive for one-itis is not at all from the men side. At a species level it makes more sense that women evolved to be good at eliciting this kind of reaction. I don’t see bio-evo advantages from the male side to be susceptible to one-itis, there are plenty from the female side to eliciting it from men they aren’t even mating with.

  62. I do not disagree with everything stated in the following current post at The New Modern Man:

    https://relampagofurioso.com

    However, there is a very fundamental misperception manifested by the commentary below the opening picture “Why play a game in which the house always wins?”

    That misperception, a most fundamental error is believing that the “house” is somthing it is not. This belief is a gross misconception because the “house” referred to is not the real house. It is an illusion. Women, the FI, etc. do not exclusively define the overarching universal reality, not even the universal reality about women. Men’s perceptions of women, what men expect of women and what men allow of women define the overarching realities of themselves and women at least as much. I am inclined to think men at least potentially exert an even greater influence.

    A more productive question would be: “Who is defining what the house is and how the game will be played?”

  63. “However, there is a very fundamental misperception manifested by the commentary below the opening picture “Why play a game in which the house always wins?”…”

    You’ve lost me there a bit. I think the objective reality is that, in the field of sex and relationships, the average woman has more power than the average man. More power because she can enter new relationships and get sex easier. True, an alpha man would have more power here, but most men can’t be alphas. And woman have more power due to gynocentric laws.

  64. @ CSI

    Women do not really have more power.

    That’s like believing in fiat currency. Most people really do believe in something that doesn’t exist, and build entire economies upon a fairy tale…lol ( I will never get over that ).

    If anyone reading Rollo’s stuff has an epiphany, that should be the one to have. Women are exercising the false power afforded to them by men. Full Stop.

    Men can also enter into ” new relationships and get sex easier “. The first step is to realize that this is indeed the case. Men cede power. Men are taught to cede power. Men look for opportunities to cede power. Women just take advantage of men’s largess.

    A man does not have to be full on Alpha to get this, or to use it to his best advantage in life.

    The article sighted by NBTM is correct about the general theme, which in a way is that there is more than one variant of The Red Pill. Our society is comprised of a string of illusions for the most part. Look behind the curtains. All of the curtains. If men follow dutifully the designs laid out by society, they will struggle and surely lose in the end. The design incorporates your subjugation and failure. It’s a built in feature.

    Women only have the power you give them.

  65. @Rollo, we argued about that in the past, but perhaps I misunderstood where you were coming from.

    @IAS, think about how vulnerable a pregnant woman or a young child would be in a wilderness setting. In the environment we evolved to live in, there would have been a much greater advantage to commitment (for both the man and the woman) than there is today.

  66. @Blaximus

    We often tend to describe frame and other alpha traits as being a burden. But even feminists see them for what they really are — liberation.

  67. @Rollo
    “Most men, the largely 80% Beta majority, are conditioned to be serial monogamists. They are taught to identify with the feminine to the point that only what he believes women’s (old books) sexual prioritization should be is correct and valid for himself.”

    I feel like I’ve been conditioned to be a pawn in the game of serial monogamy
    Its definitely effective brainwashing by the FemImp to execute the AF/BB sexual strategy. I can say I’m on the AF side of the seesaw for what its worth but it feels like the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. WE(men) always end up playing the game to females benefit.
    Your SMV can be leagues above hers but SHE can pump and dump you when she feels like it, then leave you with the bill to foot. You can be the perfect Alpha man and still get cuckolded physically, emotionally or financially.
    There are numerous studies conducted in monkeys that show females in the troops cheat all the time despite their being an Alpha.
    1. To ensure all males remain productive and extract resources and protection from all.
    2. To confuse males to the point that no one knows or cares who’s the father. Therefore ensuring the survival of all offspring vs infanticide committed by competing Alpha males.
    3. Genetic Diversity.
    We see all the same tactics used in the dating market today.

    Just giving women attention period comes as a benefit to them. Once sexual relations start thats just icing on the cake because they know they will get that somewhere from somebody. When does nexting and plate spinning become counter productive?
    I know the burden of performance is on us but when do these things become sunken cost? It seems like all off this equates to a “Edge of Tomorrow” repeated process.
    Even with top notch game. There’s a lot of mentally disturbed females out here.
    Bi-polar disorder, narcissistic personality disorders, Borderline Personality Disorders. Oppositional defiant/conduct disorders. Psychopathic disorder, PTSD, Sociopaths, Drug Abusers etc. The vast majority of them are 6s and up. Send like the best thing going for any sort of peace is a comatose 4. A 5 or better and she’s getting pimped out like The Bride in Kill Bill
    ALPHA is domain dependent and unless she’s isolated and or under heavy surveillance what’s the point of even dealing with women? The Unicorn from Smallville USA doesn’t exist. Not in the age of the internet. Submissiveness and pleasantness are just disguises for a disarming form of manipulation. Hell even nature shows that the quietest and most cooperative female Langur monkeys were the ones sneaking around doing the most fucking

    Plate spinning is cool until it isn’t. Hell I’ve been burned(chlamydia) 2x from the least likely of culprits. 1 being from a married Japanese Woman.
    Then there’s the risk of HPV or other STI in general, there are fatal attraction stalkers, jilted lovers and spouses etc.

    Its literally a wasteland out here. We can kill the idol but it simply resurrects like Doomsday. Human beings have free will and holding Frame cant changes that. I want to a enjoy the decline since I cant stop it but its so toxic out here now that men cant do that without risking self destruction.

  68. “Killing your idols” is coming to terms with what society is right now, and not what it might have been in the past. To me, this has been the easy part, making the Red Pill a logical continuation of my own thoughts.

    I have always been a bookish person, and very rational. At age 15 I knew:

    >I do not want to have children, ever.
    >Love does not exist.
    >Marriage is boring.

    Looking back, I marvel at how prescient I was. I read a lot of history and I guess that on a basic level I understood that monogamy was a social convention, even if I could not put it in those terms. Also puberty had hit and the thought of self-limiting myself to just one woman looked silly to me, being turned on by pretty much every young chick I saw.

    Sadly, I could never capitalize on that mindset because of a lingering, even if subconcious, physical insecurity (skinny-fat type, tall but with love handles and manboobs) and my own framing as wannabe intellectual, who does not come across as ‘sexual’ to women.

    I have always been a proud person and even if I realized I was not attractive, I saw changing my physique as a form of slavery to the whims of society. This mindset is good when it comes to foregoing unnecessary material possessions (status car, McMansion, etc) or rites of passage such as marriage itself, but regarding sexual dynamics turns out to be self-defeating.

    I reckoned that as long as I was not unhealthily fat, my relatively good looks and 6 feet should be more than enough. I of course had not taken hypergamy into account, and the amazing power young women have in their prime years. A couple of much lower SMV women showed interest, but I felt I deserved better. Maybe it would have been wiser to engage with them just to gain experience, who knows.

    Long story short, on my 24th birthday I was still a virgin and tired of it, and I visited a escort. Fortunately I had kept my adolescent mentality regarding women, so I enjoyed it tremendously. It also felt very natural, as if I had been doing it for a while. Around a year later I found out the Red Pill, and have been reading ever since. As I said, it dovetails perfectly with my previous assumptions and some older intellectual interests of mine as well.

    I regret failing to fully take advantage of those early 20s, but I consider myself lucky to have found this community at a young age. Also with the benefit of hindsight, virginity might have been better than crappy LTRs and having now that ‘relationship PTSD’ TFA talks about.

    It is my view that virgin soreness, so to speak, is so utterly devastating that no RP truth becomes too bitter to swallow. Idols are indeed fragile in Incelworld.

  69. I’ve been MGTOW for years and even produced some content on youtube. Generally, the guys who are the angriest and the most hardline get the most views and get the most attention. This is, I think where the perception that the majority of MGTOW want nothing to do with women and are advocating for isolation comes from. Certainly there are men who feel that way in the throes of red pill rage but I don’t think that this attitude is realistic, helpful or healthy. I’d like the readers here to consider that the manosphere, including MGTOW, may be the first time that a lot of men have been able to voice their issues and actually feel like they are not only being heard, but are coming to realize that they are not alone in what they have gone through.

    It’s frustrating as hell to hear something like, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”, when she breaks up with you and you spend months or years trying to figure out what that meant. It’s another to hear the same thing after listening to the manosphere in general, realize that you make less than she does, she’s 29, she’s about to hit the wall, her hypergamy is screaming at her and she she’s going through her epiphany phase. For me, I think that MGTOW are contributing to the overall conversation in the manosphere as are the other sectors of it and, overall are changing the way that men are viewing themselves. To me, even if it’s a messy discussion, it’s absolutely worth it.

    I can only speak for me personally but I used to drink heavily, work as little as possible, not take care of myself and, unsurprisingly, suffer from depression. The big driver for all of this behaviour was that I simply didn’t want to go through the pain of working hard, beginning to build a life, attracting some girls attention, dating and her leaving when she got bored/I wasn’t enough/her eggs started drying up/believed whatever The View or her girlfriends or Cosmo was telling her about how she didn’t need me. What MGTOW gave me was the space to start unravelling some of the bullshit that I had been told about women my whole life. Eventually, and this was the hard bit, I began to do what was really, really necessary if I was going to change my life – I made myself the centre of my frame and I put myself first. I started to not only take care of myself but to actually care about myself.

    It’s about four years since I committed to it and since then I’ve been sober for years, the depression is gone, I added 30 pounds of much needed weight and travelled to two different countries. I paid off all of my debts and I am more than half way to my goal of saving 100K that I set in January 2015.

    Do I still have sex with women as a MGTOW? Yes. Is it as much as before? No. That’s because for me, the goals I have now are more important than women. With the majority of women that I interact with the juice simply isn’t worth the squeeze. They aren’t going anywhere – there is no shortage. Besides, I’ve got a lot of stuff to do.

    Today, I got on the elevator with a neighbour and some friend of hers that I had never seen before. She hit the button for the ground floor and as she did it she looked at me and said, ‘Number one?’ I looked at her and smiled and said, ‘Yes. Yes I am’.

    Sorry about the TL;DR post, I’ve been meaning to speak up for a while now.

  70. @PaulProteus: “I’ve been MGTOW for years and even produced some content on youtube.”

    I was never a commenter, but I have been a watcher. Good to see you ’round these parts.

    “Generally, the guys who are the angriest and the most hardline get the most views and get the most attention. This is, I think where the perception that the majority of MGTOW want nothing to do with women and are advocating for isolation comes from.”

    Whereas most MGTOW are pretty much invisible as such. They’re hunting, fishing, riding bikes and such, and participate in the those online communities.

  71. Blaximus
    The makeup thing is a sure bet. Just the fact that a woman wears noticeable makeup gives a man an ” in “. They agonize over shades and color and application. Lol. ” hey, that shade of lipstick isn’t flattering on you ” will have them contemplating the rest of the day ( if they don’t downright change the lipstick ).

    They doubt quite a bit. They will not share this with you though. You have to watch for the signs.

    For the last few years I’ve been able to see this in the professional world all the time. More than one pushy, or brassy, girl with a string of letters after her name “BA / MA / M.O.U.S.E” wearing serious full face warpaint and a major pro-bitch shield — who obviously has 50 shades of tan on her bathroom makeup counter. “Take me seriously, dammit” all over the place. Treat them like a man and they will get up in your face in some way to prove they are a woman. Treat them like a bratty little sister and they melt around the edges at least.

    Or you could just take the Joisy approach and say, “Hey! Nice mask!” then see where that goes.

  72. Now it’s trannies vs. the UMC women, up in Canada. UMC women losing their “women only spa” in Toronto. Basically some UMC women want to bring their “gay friend in a dress” to their spa, but since T’s have become the latest special snowflake group it can’t just end there.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate

    Is there a correlation between the under-30’s being more accepting of homosexuality AND the under 30 women being more hungry for masculinity? Yeah, I think that could be true.

  73. Lost Patrol
    Definition of a middle aged man: He’s always thinking that in two weeks he will feel just as good as ever.

    Too true.

    “I can get back into field condition any time, work’s just real hectic right now, but next month…”

    “Someday” never comes around.

  74. “Your soul contract has expired”

    Gah.

    Any woman starts talking about “soulmates”, get out. That goes double if she’s married.

  75. Women do not really have more power.

    That’s like believing in fiat currency. Most people really do believe in something that doesn’t exist, and build entire economies upon a fairy tale…lol ( I will never get over that ).

    If anyone reading Rollo’s stuff has an epiphany, that should be the one to have. Women are exercising the false power afforded to them by men. Full Stop.

    Men can also enter into ” new relationships and get sex easier “. The first step is to realize that this is indeed the case. Men cede power. Men are taught to cede power. Men look for opportunities to cede power. Women just take advantage of men’s largess.

    A man does not have to be full on Alpha to get this, or to use it to his best advantage in life.

    The article sighted by NBTM is correct about the general theme, which in a way is that there is more than one variant of The Red Pill. Our society is comprised of a string of illusions for the most part. Look behind the curtains. All of the curtains. If men follow dutifully the designs laid out by society, they will struggle and surely lose in the end. The design incorporates your subjugation and failure. It’s a built in feature.

    Women only have the power you give them.

    Blax
    …………………………

    That shit ain’t legit.

    It’s gospel

  76. “It has been claimed that the War on Obesity(tm) is just a hidden method of Institutional Racism(tm) by skinny, upper class white bitches against lower class Blacks and Hispanics.”

    Well, hmm…Could be true. But it makes me wonder where the 119,000,000 fat white women in America fit into that equation. And the ‘skinny, upper class white bitches’ demographic is dwindling damned quickly anyway.

  77. Most things are tribal clashes so it is possible the war on obesity is just that but upper class folks despise middle class and lower class Whites while they make excuses for non-Whites so I ain’t tracking the anti obesity stuff like that

  78. “That’s like believing in fiat currency. Most people really do believe in something that doesn’t exist, and build entire economies upon a fairy tale…lol ( I will never get over that ).”

    In the world of bread and circuses, sand for the arena can be more valuable than bread.

  79. “But it makes me wonder where the 119,000,000 fat white women in America fit into that equation.”

    You answer your own question:

    “”the ‘skinny, upper class white bitches’ demographic is dwindling damned quickly anyway.”

    Remember that the chief goal of feminism is to make the SMV rejects into the hot girls.

  80. “…sand for the arena can be more valuable than bread.”

    Ask Teddy Roosevelt why a Man (in the Sand) In The Arena actually can be more valuable than actually eating bread (or pussy).

    A cultural touchstone of a speech. A call for doing, rather than merely desiring:

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

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