Surrender

Most of my readers are aware of my stand on the myth of male vulnerability. Weakness is not strength, but the Village of the Feminine Imperative, would have us believe that the more a man displays honest signs of vulnerability the more endearing he’ll be to women. The Blue Pill conditions men to believe that crying, or being more emotionally sensitive, or really anything that makes him identify with the feminine in his personal character is a form of this endearing vulnerability that women can (by appealing to equalist reason) be expected to respect in a man. While adopting this mindset may open a man up to ridicule (and unspoken disgust on the part of women), this is not true vulnerability. The Village might try to convince a man he’s being brave by avoiding conventional masculinity, but this emasculating vulnerability is nothing compared to what a man has to lose from real vulnerability.

What I think most men, certainly all Blue Pill men, miss is that the ultimate form of vulnerability a man can engage in is ‘catching feelings’ for, or emotionally investing himself in, any particular woman. And this is especially so if that man’s Blue Pill conditioning makes him oblivious to the risks of that vulnerability.

Nothing leaves a man more vulnerable in life, love, family, career, finances and really power over the direction of his life than to invest himself in a woman. The very act, the very thought, of surrendering his life’s imperative to the trust that a woman wont exercise the unimaginable control and potential for damage she has in his life is a vulnerability no woman will ever recognize or acknowledge; nor will the sacrifices that come from this vulnerability ever be something she has a capacity to appreciate.

Even in the best case scenarios, where a man’s investment is reciprocated, or a somewhat idyllic relationship grows between a man and a woman, such is the state of our modern sexual marketplace that a potential for a man’s ruin still colors that relationship. Our feminine-primary social order has, through legislation and social pretense, made the proposition of any man navigating the sexual marketplace one of inherent vulnerability. Women rarely understand the vulnerability a man is opening himself up to because our social order makes that potential for his harm invisible to her. In fact, if he resists opening himself up to potential ruin he’s considered to be insecure, and this in turn is attributed to his maleness.

I have no doubt there will be women reading this last paragraph and think, “Well, women are putting themselves at risk too, we have to be vulnerable too.” No, you really don’t. Since the beginning of the Sexual Revolution every potential aspect of vulnerability for women in the SMP has been meticulously compensated for, or insured against the worst. Whether that’s the grossly female-weighted divorce and custody laws, or legal abortion, or arbitrary consent laws that only serve women, or the special dispensation for women academically or vocationally, any and all vulnerability risk is mitigated for you. The emotional vulnerability you believe is so costly pales in comparison to the risk and consequences that vulnerability represents to men. Men commonly have more to risk, more to lose and invest more of themselves into that risk proposition.

True vulnerability, the kind that opens you up to life-destroying consequences, is when a man’s idealism for women, despite knowing all the very likely, very destructive, consequences is something he willfully ignores. For a Blue Pill man, his vulnerability is rarely ever recognized. Thanks to his life-long preconditioning he believes in a romanticism that insulates him from ever acknowledging the risks and the all-downside potential of that vulnerability. This obliviousness – keeping a Beta-in Waiting blind – is a primary goal of Blue Pill conditioning.

Idealizing Surrender

Women would rather be objectified than idealized. The reason for this really gets back to evolved gender differences; women want a man who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. In other words, women want to be the object of desire of a worthy man. When a man surrenders himself to the primacy of the feminine, when he makes a woman his mental point of origin, when he alters the course of his life to accommodate her, that’s when he ceases to be someone for whom she’ll willingly submit to. When she becomes his center he knowingly surrenders Frame.

It is, however, the innate idealism that predisposes men to outward thinking, to the belief in what could be realized, that also predisposes them to idolizing women on whole and idolizing a woman at once. A man’s idealism makes a lot of things possible for him, but it also puts him at terrible risk with regard to being truly vulnerable. Furthermore, men’s fundamental romantic nature is also attributed to our innate what-is-possible idealism. The Feminine Imperative has used this idealism to its benefit for millennia, but the most common (seemingly sensible) utility of it results in men’s surrender of self to the feminine.

When we read through the romantic poetry of the ages – almost all of it written by men – the most common reoccurring theme is that of a helpless ‘surrender’ to the love a man bears for a woman. From Ovid to Shakespeare to Byron the dialog and sentiment is the same; that of the inherent ‘correctness’ of a man surrendering his soul to the love – requited or not – of a woman. If there is a psychological root to the disorder of ONEitis it can be found in this poetic idealism.

However, there is nothing that makes a man more vulnerable to a woman, to the feminine, than his idealist’s nature. The Feminine Imperative knows this thumbscrew of men. One hallmark of the conditioned Beta mind is an eagerness to put themselves into a state of surrender to the feminine. I go into this a bit in Pre-Whipped:

These are the men I call pre-whipped; men so thoroughly conditioned, men who’ve so internalized that conditioning, that they mentally prepare themselves for total surrender to the Feminine Imperative, that they already make the perfect Beta provider before they even meet the woman to whom they’ll make their sacrifice.

But what should predispose men to so eagerly want this surrender? Certainly there’s an element of a (false) belief in the possibility of a mutual concept of love between that man and a (potential) woman. It’s what he believes should be possible.

What else? There’s the pre-conditioned belief that this surrender is his masculine duty. Countless Blue Pill pastors make a living belaboring the narrative that men can’t be Men until they mold themselves over the course of a lifetime to be a (once convenient) a woman’s ideal. Literally, manhood is denied to him until he surrenders to the feminine.

The Family Alpha made this observation last week:

Many men have given the power over their inner self entirely to the women of their lives.

While I completely agree, what I’m wondering is why this need to surrender self is an intrinsic aspect in men? The majority of men (80% Betas) are pre-whipped to expect a need to surrender to the women in their lives. Their abdication is so matter of fact that it becomes something subconscious for them.

Is this a characteristic that separates Betas from Alphas? I’d like to think so, but then a distinction needs to be made between being a Strong Independent Alpha who lives up to a positive, pro-social, conventionally masculine role (despite a world arrayed against it) and the same who, though still respectively Alpha, surrenders his sense of self to the woman he idolizes.

SFC Ton had a great comment about this surrender:

“Women do not really have more power……The first step is to realize that this is indeed the case. Men cede power. Men are taught to cede power. Men look for opportunities to cede power. Women just take advantage of men’s largess. A man does not have to be full on Alpha to get this, or to use it to his best advantage in life.”

One thing to consider is how much power have men ceded and to what effect. The surrender is real, both individually and socially. Reclaiming the power ceded in that surrender will be fought in many different scopes. In The Family Alpha’s article, the concern is two fold: the ceding of a man’s inner self, the surrender of identity to the approval of the feminine, and what the consequences are for men once they reclaim or recreate an identity apart from what he allowed the feminine to create for him.

This a significant thing to ponder for men. One reason I believe men become so despondent, so nihilistic, after some trauma that shook them into Red Pill awareness is that their identity, their sense of self, was a result of this ceding of power to women. They literally do not know what to make of themselves once they are cut free from that paradigm, but moreover they must confront the fact that who they are now (at the time of their unplugging) is, in large part, due to that self-surrender. Prior to their unplugging this surrender may have been involuntary for them, but still perhaps not. Their vulnerability and the true potential of permanent damage from it is put out in the open for them and others to realize.

It’s easy to think of men having difficulty getting over their Exes as in some way damaged. Family Alpha’s point was to encourage men to get back on the horse and back in the game and be competitive again, and that’s what I believe is most beneficial for these men. I also believe that it does men no service to prolong feeling sorry for themselves, but again, that’s part of the process of recreating a man. The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them and caused them to believe in, and then confront the consequences of their first vulnerability and surrender to the feminine. Isolation becomes their new form of surrender.

However, it’s also important that they recognize the potential for damage that surrendering, that ceding power, to the feminine represents to them. Red Pill aware men should acknowledge that their real vulnerability will be implied in any relationship they enter into beyond a perfunctory pump & dump. That knowledge should be a source of power that prevents them from overextending themselves once again into surrender to the feminine. They are aware now and that awareness now implies a responsibility to it. It demands that they keep their heads out of the sand and make calculated risks according to that awareness.

Your new Red Pill self has no more excuses of ignorance – your life’s been handed back to you with the full knowledge of the system you’re a part of.

No surrender.

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[…] Surrender […]

ianironwood
Guest

Excellent post. I would attribute this willingness to the masculine willingness to sacrifice, something that is ingrained in our nature. We appreciate that willingness when it’s in service to a greater good (and, we hope, worthy of note by our respected peers and potential mates) to the point that there are men out there desperate to sacrifice themselves for something. As the Church is no longer a respected option for many, and military service too potentially violent for others, we see several generations of men who have attempted to sacrifice themselves and their ambitions for the the ideals we aspire… Read more »

Marmore
Guest

Unconscious programming of men to meet this expectation of surrender, although foreign and detrimental to him, is hard to eliminate. It’s like a recent computer bug written by an inexperienced coder into millions of lines of an engineer’s flawless code. But once introduced, it’s nearly impossible to correct by even the most seasoned programmers. Yet, it is fascinating how even a beta man can easily point out that another man is losing his frame, his power – himself to the whims of a woman, even as far as offering advice. However, he himself is incapable of applying any degree of… Read more »

kenzhames
Guest

It’s hard for some men not to open up and show real emotions to women. I don’t understand it myself but the societal narrative that men should open up plays a part.

I remember a recently divorced friend regretting crying to his ex-wife in the past. His conclusion: it’s cheaper to buy your buddy a drink and just vent to him. However, it’s against our instincts and nature to show vulnerability to other men. In the past that ensured an extinction. So what to do?

sundawner
Guest
sundawner

Speaking of surrender… Cuckanada is trying to beat men into submission and force womynz feelz as the law.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-bringing-sexual-assault-law-up-to-speed-with-the-courts-times/article35213485/

“proposed legislation would spell out for the first time that a complainant’s text messages, e-mails and video recordings with sexual content or a sexual purpose can be kept out of trials. A new provision would subject these messages, including those sent after an alleged assault, to the same rules as evidence of a complainant’s past sexual activity: requiring a judge’s advance approval after a closed hearing for them to be used in a trial.”

Eddie Willers
Guest
Eddie Willers

I made this mistake (again) recently. I have been a reader of yours for over two years. I thought I had made progress, but I was wrong. I invested myself, in multiple ways – in an objectively extraordinary woman (but AWALT), after apparently not learning enough from the previous one. I have been so thoroughly Beta for so long, that I no longer believe it is possible to change. I am one of Illimitable Man’s “Lost Boys.” I don’t believe in love anymore – in ANY form. The anger phase has turned into the crippling, intractable, endless depression phase. I… Read more »

reading carefully
Guest
reading carefully

Insightful as always, Rollo. As an aside, the quote about power cession originated from Blax and was co-signed by Ton down thread.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Eddie I’m not an Alpha. At least not recently. “I am celibate and miserable, with zero self-esteem.” Why don’t you have self esteem? What happened to get you to not have self esteem? At this point, I want to rid myself of any desire for sex or any form of intimacy or trust, and to never think of it again. I see only one way to effectively do that. What way is that? All of you commenters and Alpha males, feel free to ridicule, call me a pussy, a crybaby, a whiner, etc – have at it. That’s not going… Read more »

daysofgame.com
Guest

>> When a man surrenders himself to the primacy of the feminine, when he makes a woman his mental point of origin, when he alters the course of his life to accommodate her, that’s when he ceases to be someone for whom she’ll willingly submit to. I read something in the intro to The Libertine Reader (terrible book, great intro) years ago, about the function of “love” in men and how it relates to civilization. Full-on cavemen don’t surrender. He wants, he takes. There was no DELAYED GRATIFICATION in that model. And that works for men. As we civilized ourselves…… Read more »

Tarl
Guest

So what are the characteristics of a man who has not surrendered / ceded power in a marriage or LTR? How does that play out in practical terms? Do you have to spin plates to refuse to surrender?

Mineter
Guest
Mineter

I can sympathise with Eddie. I’ve improved my weight and build, my appearance and wardrobe, my income, but I can’t change some things. Height being the main one. And truth be told, being tall is a real blessing for a man. The other thing I can’t easily change is my marital status without quite literally fucking up my kids’ life prospects. The stats clearly show how kids from broken families do (drinking and drugs, crime etc). I won’t do that to my kids even if I have decided that I don’t want to salvage my marriage. There is another point… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

She must surrender. He must master.

M Simon
Guest

Tarl
June 20, 2017 at 8:53 pm

You must spin plates. You must show her she has competition.

M Simon
Guest

Eddie Willers
June 20, 2017 at 7:44 pm

What works is a few years in an outlaw biker gang.

What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

theasdgamer
Guest

@Mineter

Height destroyer game:

“Take a gander at the Giganticus Awdwardus freak show”

“How does the Frankenstein Monster hide the bolts in his neck?”

There are none so small as those who let height prevent them from approaching women. If you understand about getting in a woman’s grill, you can fill her grill and she won’t see other men–even those who are much taller than you. If you believe that height is a big deal, so will she. If you don’t believe that height is a big deal, neither will women.

M Simon
Guest

theasdgamer
June 20, 2017 at 10:18 pm

Even height is no advantage if you don’t have game. At 18 I was 6′ 1 1/2″ tall. Without game I could barely get a nod let alone a kiss or more.

Attitude. Just ask Mickey Rooney.

Mineter
Guest
Mineter

@ASD @M Simon
True. Height or lack thereof is no guarantee of success or failure with women. (Same goes for having money.) But it certainly sets the game on a harder mode.

IAS
Guest
IAS

@Rollo:
women are “designed” (by evolution) to elicit this desire of surrender in men. Even RP-aware men (who are better equipped to resist the “Siren song”, but can still too easily succumb).

It has been like this for a while, it isn’t just the current FI-dominated social environment. You even mentioned Ovid (although certainly the Roman Empire at certain stages was also quite FI-dominated).

theasdgamer
Guest

@Mineter

Height really only affects the distribution of low-hanging fruit. Its impact is minimal.

To get laid with low-hanging fruit, you need:

1. Fuckup Avoidance Game

2. Enough confidence to walk up to a girl and introduce yourself

3. Confidence to escalate and isolate and instigate for sex

There’s almost always some low-hanging fruit for everybody.

anon01
Guest
anon01

@Eddie Willers “Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame)” You are trying to think your way out of betahood. This is not gonna happen. You have to lead as much an alpha life as possible to internalize what you read. If you want to learn game, I would suggest downloading rsdmax’s “The Natural,” and after watching every video, do the “mission/call to action” he suggests at the end. You can find this… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
Guest
DisgruntledEarthling

@Eddie Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame). These things take time but are not always attainable. But that’s no reason to despair. I myself will never develop effective Game – the damage is too deep in my psyche. But little victories like chatting up all girls I meet give me some satisfaction. Reasserting Frame is doable and in-progress. It surely is not all hopeless. Cling to your minor victories and whatever… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
Guest
DisgruntledEarthling

Regarding height I used to think this was one of my major shortcomings (hehe). I was 5’5.5″ in my prime, now more like 5’4″ due to age. Shoe-lifts help me get closer to 5’6″ and my current girl who’s 5’6″ doesn’t mention the change when I take off the shoes. I lift and I can lift her up, which helps during shower sex. So at 5’4″ and 150lbs, lifting and obtaining muscle mass, dressing well, and attitude (Frame) are mandatory for the short guy. The muscle mass isn’t just for the girls – other guys don’t fuck with me. I’m… Read more »

Roy Hobbs
Guest
Roy Hobbs

@ Mineter re: divorce Do some more reading. I had the same initial reaction a few years back (stay in the marriage… Bad for the kids…etc) while considering my divorce- which I eventually went through with. Afraid I was really gonna fuck EM up, I googled a dozen articles or so, but you have to look at the bias (e.g. Funded or promoted by the XYZ Organization for Family Values) and take that into account. Some, as I recall, parrot and/or intentionally use each other’s stats. I didn’t read TRM at the time, so wasn’t looking for the FI in… Read more »

Colby
Guest
Colby

@ Eddie Willars; don’t be that guy:

I.H.
Guest
I.H.

Mineter, I’ve been where you’re at. My youngest was 10 when I wanted to GTFO. I stuck it out until she went to college. I’ve never regretted it because my ex was such an insane bitch when the divorce went down, if the kids were still home it would have torn them apart. Another reason is I absolutely could not handle a new “boyfriend” living with my daughters. Fuck that. And you may already be doing this, but if not, just start doing what you know is right. Take back the frame. Live your life and follow your interests, then… Read more »

Mineter
Guest
Mineter

My marriage isn’t a shitshow, fortunately. But it ain’t rosey. I think kids can pick up on that. Still, being civil in a dead marriage beats risking her having the kids over with a new partner. The “long” game, ie her best case scenario is that I’ll hang around until the youngest finishes high school. There is absolutely no point whatsoever for me to hang around. The “medium” game is for me to see the youngest get good primary school grades to get into our high school of choice. The “short” game is that I’ll leave as soon as I… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest
Novaseeker

Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame). At this point, I want to rid myself of any desire for sex or any form of intimacy or trust, and to never think of it again. I see only one way to effectively do that. Eddie — Well, you won’t be able to do that, so you need a different plan. Men need sex like we need water — it’s something you can’t just… Read more »

Oscar C.
Guest

@Mineter About height, I am 6 feet tall, which here in Spain is well above average, and at 27 still haven’t gotten laid without opening my wallet. I think it helps you but in and of itself it won’t be the key element. In fact, in my case it might have been even detrimental because I subconsciously assumed that thanks to it I did not have to worry too much about my overall appearance. I have a far shorter buddy who is on his 4th LTR. He has always been a better dresser than myself. His girlfriends are not 9s… Read more »

BuenaVista
Guest
BuenaVista

I suppose it’s been 6-7 years of red pill for me (red pill in my personal life, for some reason I had no problem leading in my professional life). My latest observation is that I know exactly one guy, out of 50 friends and acquaintances, who might be described as red pill. (And he doesn’t even know what the term refers to.) Maybe there are a couple more back east, but I’m not in touch. I think I know a lot of fairly studly men, but THEY ALL serve the feminine imperative. For example, my lawyer is the county attorney… Read more »

BuenaVista
Guest
BuenaVista

Put another way, Norton’s character suggests the red pill (from a social reality perspective) renders us insane. When I interact with my children or close, lifelong friends, the thought has occurred to me.

Xwarper
Guest
Xwarper

Stephen King, in his great book Pet Semetery, has a scene where the husband hero Louis Creed is considering neutering the cat. He doesn’t want to because he likes the pet’s fierce nature and masculine hunting spirit. When, in the end, he succumbs to necessity and does what the females in the house want (his wife and daughter, who supposedly love the tomcat but only love its cuteness), their reaction for his sacrifice on their behalf is this: they have zero appreciation for the loss of the spirit of the cat or what it represents to him. The daughter and… Read more »

I.H.
Guest
I.H.

Buenavista,

Agreed on the scarcity of RP men. The FI so thoroughly permeates our culture, hell it is our culture, that the average guy has absolutely no clue that there’s a better way of life. He has no idea that he’s been raised from birth to feed, facilitate and support the FI. Like a fattened calf being raised to slaughter.

And even when he gets any insight that he’s been duped, that there might be another way, it’s so daunting, or it’s so difficult to kill the beta, that he slides right back into the matrix.

Oscar C.
Guest

@BuenaVista The problem out there is that too many men still follow an “honor code” that no longer applies in our society. If like me you have been raised in an intact and functional family of married mom & dad, chances are you were brought up in values such as integrity, honesty, politeness, discipline, work. I was for sure. Great values, no doubt, but meant for a healthier society which could put them to good use. In the current mess, they more often than not will lead to AFCdom. We are still civilized in the West for sure, but not… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Buena. iH

Great post Buena. Post moar.

And yet even in the context of a RP guy splaining RP the FI creeps in:

“and letting me feel them up”

Hit it HABD! Pervasive…

Girls don’t “let you” feel them up… They are felt up. Because they want it.

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

“What really blew my mind RP-wise was realizing that contrary to conventional wisdom, it was the traditional Western society”

Our society is steeped in the male zombifying Golden Rule… Beta kool aid.

Embrace the Platinum Rule [do whatever YOU want to do whenever YOU want to do it] and watch how easy RP’ing becomes…

Flip the switch. Act.

https://youtu.be/oG-nnDlnWrA

Reep the rewards…

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ Eddie Novaseeker beat me to the punch with great insight. Realise that what you’ve attempted is a monumental task my friend. Hard work. Hard work automatically excludes one from not being ” worthy “. Remember, you are becoming an expert in *you*, and just like becoming an expert at anything, you will run into pitfalls and frustration. At times like these I’ve always found it helpful to slow down. Way down if necessary. Most often gaining understanding is easier than the application of the new found knowledge. We tend to doubt if we can really be ” different “.… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ Oscar I have an Honor Code that I make the choice to live by. My sense of ” honor ” is a personal choice that I’ve made solely for myself. It is now, and always has been independent of society at large. Society benefits indirectly from my personal choice, but society is never a consideration. MPO. Men must grasp that they always have the independent power to make choices. As an extreme example, look at terror attacks carried out by men who decide not to give any fucks about social norms. Then look at the reactions by broader, rule… Read more »

dr zipper
Guest
dr zipper

Eddie W – I once knew a guy who — by some strange twist — came into possession of one of those large Beretta type birds (cockatoo?). Living in an apartment, the guy would let the bird out on his small 10×10 patio with the privacy fence (lol). One day when the bird was out on the patio and the guy wasn’t watching, a neighbor’s cat pounced and bye-bye birdie. I thought it was funny buy he was mad a hell, wanting to track that cat down or its owner blah blah blah I said, “Dude, it’s a cat, that’s… Read more »

thedeti
Guest

Great to see you quoting The Family Alpha. He is writing some top notch content.

TuffLuv
Guest
TuffLuv

point was to encourage men to get back on the horse and back in the game and be competitive again, and that’s what I believe is most beneficial for these men. goddamn right it is. The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them this is a necessary evil. how’s he going to become his own center if he immerses himself in the game ceaselessly.. in that way, chasing new chicks can be a crutch, or a drug even. The burnt man has to regroup, has… Read more »

anon
Guest
anon
Eddie Willers
Guest
Eddie Willers

@ SJF: “Why don’t you have self esteem? What happened to get you to not have self esteem?” It’s been a problem for my entire life. I even believe in a philosophy heavily based on rational self-interest, self-esteem, etc. I’ve always sucked at implementing it (poor frame). Oneitis for, and swift discard by, someone likely high on the narcissistic scale, certainly made it worse. “What way is that?” Not being alive anymore. But, nobody needs to be alarmed or call the authorities – this is not a statement of suicidal intent. “What can we help you with?” I don’t think… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

It is an intuitive fact that there are very few red pill aware and game skilled men out there to be mentors, mentees or colleagues. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there scattered around. It does not mean you shouldn’t pursue having relationships (in a fight club manner) with them. I have a handful of red pill guy friends in real life (and quite a few more non blue pill friends). I pursued and established a relationship with them when the opportunity presented itself. Those relationships are invaluable. You can have desire to this. You can have inner intention… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

Funny as Hell Field Report Daughter Gamer got an eyeful recently when Mrs. Gamer was grabbing for my package in front of daughter. Daughter Gamer had believed Mrs. Gamer’s nonsense when Mrs. Gamer talked about her bad feelz caused by yours truly to Daughter Gamer. Daughter Gamer now knows that Mrs. Gamer is in love with me because daughter saw the evidence herself. Of course, Daughter Gamer will still sympathize with Mrs. Gamer’s bad feelz the next time Mrs. Gamer calls Daughter Gamer to complain. Mrs. Gamer deliberately showed off in front of daughter…funny as hell at the time…of course,… Read more »

rugby11
Guest

“The very act, the very thought, of surrendering his life’s imperative to the trust that a woman wont exercise the unimaginable control and potential for damage she has in his life is a vulnerability no woman will ever recognize or acknowledge; nor will the sacrifices that come from this vulnerability ever be something she has a capacity to appreciate.”
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMpe39JD8eA/
Life
https://www.instagram.com/p/n3tRb5pFDY/
Goes
https://www.instagram.com/p/BOF17zyjJi1/
On

Cycling Cowboy
Guest

Eddie, where do you live? I am willing to bet that there are men in your town or city that would be willing to serve as a sounding board and a mentor. Id where you live and I bet that there are guy who you can exchange contact info and start from there. Don’t give up. Reach out.

Oscar C.
Guest

@Blaximus Good to hear that you stick to your own rules but I fear that’s too much introspection for the average man. Herd instincts are not only the province of women, even if they are more prone to them. Ideally we should all carve our own path in life, but that won’t happen for many dudes out there. That’s why a healthy society which prioritizes virtue is so important. @Eddie Thanks for the reply and the link. So yeah, even after the chemical castration he still likes women, even if not as intensely as before; not for me, then. I… Read more »

palmasailor
Guest
palmasailor

@Eddie I’ve been there myself, there are lots of phases of unplugging, and even stages of self inspection within the phases. At one point I took a year off sex, stopped approaching, stopped pursuing and declined all offers that I got. Watching a woman’s face when you politely decline her approach / attempt to engage you is educational, and I think this is the MGTOW fantasy. If you stick with it eventually, you’ll get what you want from women on your own terms for the bulk of the time. It does get easier but full acceptance of TRP is lonely… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Norton’s character suggests the red pill (from a social reality perspective) renders us insane.”

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is a paranoid schizophrenic.

” . . . red pill aware and game skilled men out there to be mentors, mentees or colleagues.”

@Eddie:

SJF beat me to it. This is what you need. Ideally to be immersed in them.

@Oscar: “. . . chances are you were brought up in values such as integrity, honesty, politeness, discipline, work.”

Which are good values, among groups of men.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Rugby:

OK, I’ll pile on. I think Samurai Champloo is interesting to watch through a red pill lens, but could you explain why you thought it was worth posting here?

dr zipper
Guest
dr zipper

Oscar – taking Novaseeker’s statement “If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that” as a lie is disingenuous. Nova was referring to “change your life for yourself ” which, in that context, is absolutely true. To take it further, he’s suggesting you make yourself your MPO, not women, not society, not anybody nor anything else. And the term materialize isn’t being used in a magical, no-effort required way. It means that your new, internalized aura of being an RP man will give you the power to control your… Read more »

SJB
Guest
SJB

Somewhere in that story is a parable about man’s vulnerability to his own idealism. The world doesn’t care about your ideals. They can and will be used against you.

Absolutely goddamn right. Greene’s law 38 applies. Even (especially) to yourself.

Nathan Briscoe (@nathanbrisk)
Guest

bravo

rugby11
Guest

kfg
last episode
Vulrenability
15min mark

Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising

@Eddie: Many have been down the same path. I won’t lie; it is a tough, lonely path. If you can’t find a mentor, then find a young person you can coach. You have invested a lot of time and effort in learning the RP tenants and truths. Don’t let it go waste. Even if you find it hard to implement GAME and hold Frame, when you see your protégé benefit from applying the knowledge he learnt form you, it will be very rewarding.

anon01
Guest
anon01

@Eddie Willers “I have taken various forms of action for over two years. They don’t stick, integrate, or become lifelong habits” “I just don’t see how it’s going to build frame – inside.” I don’t understand this. Let’s say I want Calum von Moger’s internal frame on lifting. He probably usually likes going to the gym and pumping iron, and sometimes might feel like not doing it but he goes anyway and does it. Integrating his frame would mean I am thinking and acting like that. However, if I just GO to the gym like he does even if I… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

@Oscar C You quoted somebody else saying: ““If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that”” This is easily the lie of the century. Girls never “materialize” out of thin air. You have to chase them. If your status is high enough (AlphaRockbandDrummer, Frank Fratman, Harley McThug), there will be lots of low-hanging fruit. If you do the self-improvement work, and achieve unconscious competence, then it will seem like girls just materialize out of thin air. Have you heard of Indirect Game? Indirect Game aims to get the girl… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Oscar

“This is easily the lie of the century. Girls never “materialize” out of thin air. You have to chase them”

depends… If you are sitting in your room alone, probably not. If you are out though you increase the probabilities dramatically. She might just turn the corner in a hotel hallway, or an elevator door opens, or she takes the stool next to you at a bar… 🍸

The more you fish in stocked ponds the more dish you can catch 🐟.

TuffLuv
Guest
TuffLuv

@Eddie I have a type. You don’t know your type at all due to lack of experience. You need two things in combination to get you out of your funk, and PUA style girl chasing is not one of them. 1. You need a 5, maybe if you’re lucky a 6, who is a sweet girl, who has a good family, and who you will recognize instantly as knowing how to treat a man she is attracted to. This girl is somewhat simple, and easy to love back. This girl is 2 SMV points below you. 2. An abundance of… Read more »

Oscar C.
Guest

@dr zipper

Point taken. I just wanted to make clear that waking up motivated every day and having an array of personal or professional interests you pursue is NOT enough to get laid. Ditto for having an “interesting” life. It is a blue pill idea that for some reason still gets a lot of traction in the manosphere.

dr zipper
Guest
dr zipper

Okay, Oscar, you’re right: being good at a specific interest/endeavor isn’t always enough for success with women. But I can’t seem to find anyone here making those assertions, maybe you’re seeing it on another manosphere site.

Regardless, lack of success with women is not the problem, it’s a symptom. It’s not about the fucking women or the world, it’s about you.

Oscar C.
Guest

@theasdgamer Yes, of course, rockstars and celebrities don’t need to worry. Very attractive men will also get tons of IOIs. I think that in a weird way confidence was counter-productive for me when I was younger; being tall and relatively handsome, and not socially awkward, I thought girls would not be a problem. I of course did not know much about hypergamy. Indirect Game sounds like fun, I recall reading that it is great to friendzone girls… About Spain, well, CH has an old post worth reading “Is Spain the worst country in the world for players?”: https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/is-spain-the-worst-country-in-the-world-for-players/ Of course… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Rugby: Thank you. @Oscar: Once upon a time, as a demonstration to his students of the possibilities of technique, Lee Wulff (the inventor of the fishing vest) tied a fly to ordinary sewing thread, cast it without a rod or reel, hooked and landed a 6 kilogram salmon. I emphasized the landed because that was the real tricky bit that only an expert at playing fish could accomplish. I assure you that it is not some blue pill fantasy that women will materialize and even “hook” themselves to you, but you still have to know that they’ve done so and… Read more »

CSI
Guest
CSI

The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them and caused them to believe in, and then confront the consequences of their first vulnerability and surrender to the feminine. Isolation becomes their new form of surrender.

If you mean MGTOW, then I wouldn’t describe that as weakness. However just as most men can’t be Alpha, most men aren’t going to be MGTOW. The biological imperative is too strong.

kfg
Guest
kfg

” . . . “bangs” don’t materialize, only opportunities . . .”

Well, yeah. Even money found on the sidewalk is nothing more than an opportunity. You still have to take the trouble to pick it up.

“Very few girls will ask you out.”

But they will ask you to ask them out. Of course, if you don’t understand what they’re saying you might just walk right by and not pick them up.

Glengarry
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Glengarry

Oscar, first of all, can you identify female IOIs?

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Oscar chased. Chased not from a position of neediness, for sure, but men always have to escalate. Very few girls will ask you out. escalating is not chasing. And as kfg says, do you understand what they are saying??? Lastly girls will ask you out… with persistence. Not all girls sure. Once a girl asked me to dance. I said no thanks. She asked if I wanted a drink. No thanks. She finally asked if I wanted breakfast. I said Ok to that. Ate, banged her twice at my place. Then she said she loved me… which was terrifying because… Read more »

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

Oscar

I just wanted to make clear that waking up motivated every day and having an array of personal or professional interests you pursue is NOT enough to get laid. Ditto for having an “interesting” life.

It is enough for generating female attraction though… The dynamic, passionate and authentic traits on display – the Alpha Triad.

How much of this do you display? With what regularity?

Sentient
Guest
Sentient

kfg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufmOwB79Mf8

Or sturgeon… those can kill.

Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books for Cucks)
Guest
Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books for Cucks)

Echoing @tuffluv: what he says is what is truly meant by the catch phrase “fake it till you make it.” As in: You force yourself to maintain the external frame. By doing so, and sticking with it, you become more comfortable doing it, and you begin to internalize it. The more you do it the easier it gets. Put another way, it’s the “technical” form of stage acting instead of the “method” form where you try to generate the internal emotions of the character and then express them outwardly. It’s more like Laurence Olivier’s famous quip: once he put on… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient
Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising

@ Rollo
From “Saving the Best”: “Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place”. Ouch Ouch Ouch. I had read this a number of times before, but reading it again after a few months still sends shivers down the spine. Good work Sir, need to be reminded of this (more like a slap on the face) on a regular basis. That one line alone is enough for me never to look at a women as someone I need to surrender to.
NO SURRENDER !!!!

Sentient
Guest
Sentient
kfg
Guest
kfg

@Sentient:

Oh, sure. Trigger me why don’t you? One of those 200 pounders damn near took me out.

kfg
Guest
kfg

Malvolio:

Close, in the name of jesting! Lie thou there,
for here comes the trout that must be caught with tickling.*

–Twelfth Night

*Trout tickling is the art of rubbing the underbelly of a trout using fingers. If done properly, the trout will go into a trance-like state after a minute or so

anon
Guest
anon

“For now I won’t bring up flying fish which will simply leap into your boat. One step at a time.”

Watch out for the needlefish!
http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/10/21/one-more-thing-to-be-frightened-of-horrific-back-stabbing-needlefish/

GDeeJay
Guest
GDeeJay

@Eddie Willers

“It’s been a problem for my entire life. I even believe in a philosophy heavily based on rational self-interest, self-esteem, etc. I’ve always sucked at implementing it (poor frame).”

I’ll say. Look, I am not ‘Alpha’ yet … just as I am not a captain of industry or a motor of the world … yet. The first step is to not adopt the name of a Milquetoast character from the author you admire. Your internal dialogue sets the tone for your life, and you are self deprecating all over the place!

Oscar C.
Guest

@Glenngarry Yes, I do. A girl from college went as far as to invite me to lunch with her parents upon graduation without even having had a single proper date before. She was marginalized in class and being a kind person I have always made a point to engage with those deemed “unpopular”. I did not fancy her sexually, so I stopped it at that (my dad called me a fool for it lol). I can’t really fault women’s reaction to “nice guys” because it was my own. Truth is, I have never been uncomfortable around women. I suspect my… Read more »

Culum Struan
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Culum Struan

@Oscar C – I posted a detailed post for you in the last thread. About online dating and what to do on a date.

Try following that for a few online dates and see how it works out.

SFC Ton
Guest

Once again that was me quoting Blax

Oscar C.
Guest

@Culum

Thanks a lot, but where did you post it exactly? I went back to “Killing your idols” (the Rollo post that preceded this one) and did not see anything there.

Blaximus
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Blaximus

“Also, I have always been bookish and I guess that I use a high brow vocabulary, even subsconsciously. In my view, chicks enjoy a certain intellectual prowess because they are often very insecure when it comes to politics, history… but there is a thin red line between interesting to intimidating conversation. I recall that once in highschool, the teacher asked a very tough question and I answered almost effortlessly. A girl ahead of me turned around and a bewildered look said “how the hell can you possibly know that?” It felt great, I was a nerd, but proud of that… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus

@ Ton

Great minds think alike.

dr zipper
Guest
dr zipper

How do you know your introspection is correct? Where is your feedback from your beliefs about yourself? How about trying something new and see what happens. You write with certainty about self-knowledge and women’s tendencies but it’s only academic rote unsupported by actual field experience. It’s like the college professor teaching business courses but he’s never actually run a business…. there’s limit to what you can learn in the classroom and much of the practical details are learned by doing, not studying. You’ve been heard and given precise, prescriptive advice. Over-thinking, incessantly re-hashing details, giving excuses, etc., are only buffers… Read more »

dr zipper
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dr zipper

^^^ meant for Oscar

Oscar C.
Guest

I guessed so @dr zipper

Oscar C.
Guest

I have met several girls I got to know through dating apps. I would set the dates around 12:00 AM so that we would have coffee and after an hour or so I would invite them to have lunch. If they accepted, considering it was a $10 menu, that meant they must be interested, right? So yeah, all accepted. We have what looks like a good conversation, we finish the meal (only one insisted in going Dutch) and we part ways. 2 or 3 hours later I get a text saying how much fun they had. All of them texted,… Read more »

Oscar C.
Guest

@Blaximus

I agree. The guy you link to looks certainly interesting.

However I don’t think that I have a super high IQ (the entire school was tested once and we were told nobody was extraordinary): steady reading habits from childhood on can boost your academic performance enormously.

IMO the main advantage of intellectual interests is that they can be used as a buffer against ONEitis and the fear of loneliness.

dr zipper
Guest
dr zipper

Oscar -this statement is a good indicator of your state of mind: “IMO the main advantage of intellectual interests is that they can be used as a buffer against ONEitis and the fear of loneliness.” Your interests’ main advantage is to make yourself the man you want to be without regard to anything about sexual dynamics. How does this sound to you: “I’m going to get really good at xx because it’ll keep me from getting lonely when my ONEitis dumps me.” I hope it sounds as stupid to you as it does me. If you preemptively hold anything you… Read more »

Culum Struan
Guest
Culum Struan

@Oscar C – my mistake, it was in the Field Reports thread, page 26

Go to this link:

https://therationalmale.com/field-reports/comment-page-26/

And search for “oscar” or “culum” and it will come up. Two separate posts with detailed advice about optimizing your online dates.

anon01
Guest
anon01

@Oscar Download a pick up program. Any. The “problems” you describe are obviously common. “Running out of things to say” [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LZCvrRx7q8&w=640&h=360%5D “[…]We have what looks like a good conversation[…]But soon thereafter, they ghosted me haha” What is a good conversation? I used to have good conversations with the results you describe, but if you learn game you might realize it wasn’t a good conversation. Was there a man-to-woman vibe? Did you sexualize the conversation? Did you escalate in any way? I recommend what I’ve used: “nAtural” by rsdmax(torrent it for free). Watch it and DO THE MISSIONS. This is… Read more »

constrainedlocus
Guest

After reading this it occurred to me just what happens to a person upon surrender in war, whether conventional or intersexual. They typically disarm you, isolate you from the others, remove any belongings of danger or value, take you prisoner and confine you. They may even beat you, or have you killed sooner or later, at the discretion of the unknown. The difference between war conventional and war intersexual seems…not so great anymore. I guess it should not surprise us then to witness so many male prisoners (dead men) walking in the very light of day? What are the white… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
Guest
DisgruntledEarthling

@Eddie
I have taken various forms of action for over two years. They don’t stick, integrate, or become lifelong habits

It’s been 3 years for me and I’m just just starting to hold Frame consistently. These things take time

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

” Placing her priorities above his own and all others.
– Getting fat and complacent
– Distancing himself from family
– Disconnecting from his friends
– Failing to set boundaries and say “no”.
– Selling off boyhood hobbies and interests – the motorcycle, the truck, the electric guitar and amp, the drum set, the college football helmet and jersey that he wore
– Accepted sexlessness
– Assuming the role of her adult child ”

Ohhhh sweet Jesus this sounds horrible.

anon01
Guest
anon01

@Oscar

There is a dude @alpharivelino(twitter) who blogs about his daygame among others. I think he is in Spain. You could read his stuff(maybe meet him?). It will make it easier to see gaming in your country as something natural. I also live in a Med country; game works here, too. The only difference with the States is hypergamy being a little less open.

good luck!

Oscar C.
Guest

@dr. zipper Trust me, I get what you are saying. I used to act without thinking about the female reaction at all. Furthermore, I have always had the right mindset: I have never believed in “love”. At age 15 I already knew I did not want to have children. I come from an intact family and I have always seen marriage as sheer boredom. I plainly told my parents more than once that they did not love themselves, that they were mainly engaging in a social convention (I know now that they do really have a great relationship, btw). I… Read more »

dr zipper
Guest
dr zipper

“Or better yet, this only works when ‘the man you want to be’ does overlap with female desire.” Another assertion unsupported by field work nor by anyone else here. Blaming external forces for a lack of success with “oh woe is me, the world doesn’t understand and appreciate me, left to a life of genius solitude” same shit I did and many others…. it’s just squirming for an easy out because accepting your own responsibility for your own life’s success is difficult unless you’re at rock bottom; you’ll know when you’re there because you will be willing to chew off… Read more »

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