Surrender

Most of my readers are aware of my stand on the myth of male vulnerability. Weakness is not strength, but the Village of the Feminine Imperative, would have us believe that the more a man displays honest signs of vulnerability the more endearing he’ll be to women. The Blue Pill conditions men to believe that crying, or being more emotionally sensitive, or really anything that makes him identify with the feminine in his personal character is a form of this endearing vulnerability that women can (by appealing to equalist reason) be expected to respect in a man. While adopting this mindset may open a man up to ridicule (and unspoken disgust on the part of women), this is not true vulnerability. The Village might try to convince a man he’s being brave by avoiding conventional masculinity, but this emasculating vulnerability is nothing compared to what a man has to lose from real vulnerability.

What I think most men, certainly all Blue Pill men, miss is that the ultimate form of vulnerability a man can engage in is ‘catching feelings’ for, or emotionally investing himself in, any particular woman. And this is especially so if that man’s Blue Pill conditioning makes him oblivious to the risks of that vulnerability.

Nothing leaves a man more vulnerable in life, love, family, career, finances and really power over the direction of his life than to invest himself in a woman. The very act, the very thought, of surrendering his life’s imperative to the trust that a woman wont exercise the unimaginable control and potential for damage she has in his life is a vulnerability no woman will ever recognize or acknowledge; nor will the sacrifices that come from this vulnerability ever be something she has a capacity to appreciate.

Even in the best case scenarios, where a man’s investment is reciprocated, or a somewhat idyllic relationship grows between a man and a woman, such is the state of our modern sexual marketplace that a potential for a man’s ruin still colors that relationship. Our feminine-primary social order has, through legislation and social pretense, made the proposition of any man navigating the sexual marketplace one of inherent vulnerability. Women rarely understand the vulnerability a man is opening himself up to because our social order makes that potential for his harm invisible to her. In fact, if he resists opening himself up to potential ruin he’s considered to be insecure, and this in turn is attributed to his maleness.

I have no doubt there will be women reading this last paragraph and think, “Well, women are putting themselves at risk too, we have to be vulnerable too.” No, you really don’t. Since the beginning of the Sexual Revolution every potential aspect of vulnerability for women in the SMP has been meticulously compensated for, or insured against the worst. Whether that’s the grossly female-weighted divorce and custody laws, or legal abortion, or arbitrary consent laws that only serve women, or the special dispensation for women academically or vocationally, any and all vulnerability risk is mitigated for you. The emotional vulnerability you believe is so costly pales in comparison to the risk and consequences that vulnerability represents to men. Men commonly have more to risk, more to lose and invest more of themselves into that risk proposition.

True vulnerability, the kind that opens you up to life-destroying consequences, is when a man’s idealism for women, despite knowing all the very likely, very destructive, consequences is something he willfully ignores. For a Blue Pill man, his vulnerability is rarely ever recognized. Thanks to his life-long preconditioning he believes in a romanticism that insulates him from ever acknowledging the risks and the all-downside potential of that vulnerability. This obliviousness – keeping a Beta-in Waiting blind – is a primary goal of Blue Pill conditioning.

Idealizing Surrender

Women would rather be objectified than idealized. The reason for this really gets back to evolved gender differences; women want a man who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. In other words, women want to be the object of desire of a worthy man. When a man surrenders himself to the primacy of the feminine, when he makes a woman his mental point of origin, when he alters the course of his life to accommodate her, that’s when he ceases to be someone for whom she’ll willingly submit to. When she becomes his center he knowingly surrenders Frame.

It is, however, the innate idealism that predisposes men to outward thinking, to the belief in what could be realized, that also predisposes them to idolizing women on whole and idolizing a woman at once. A man’s idealism makes a lot of things possible for him, but it also puts him at terrible risk with regard to being truly vulnerable. Furthermore, men’s fundamental romantic nature is also attributed to our innate what-is-possible idealism. The Feminine Imperative has used this idealism to its benefit for millennia, but the most common (seemingly sensible) utility of it results in men’s surrender of self to the feminine.

When we read through the romantic poetry of the ages – almost all of it written by men – the most common reoccurring theme is that of a helpless ‘surrender’ to the love a man bears for a woman. From Ovid to Shakespeare to Byron the dialog and sentiment is the same; that of the inherent ‘correctness’ of a man surrendering his soul to the love – requited or not – of a woman. If there is a psychological root to the disorder of ONEitis it can be found in this poetic idealism.

However, there is nothing that makes a man more vulnerable to a woman, to the feminine, than his idealist’s nature. The Feminine Imperative knows this thumbscrew of men. One hallmark of the conditioned Beta mind is an eagerness to put themselves into a state of surrender to the feminine. I go into this a bit in Pre-Whipped:

These are the men I call pre-whipped; men so thoroughly conditioned, men who’ve so internalized that conditioning, that they mentally prepare themselves for total surrender to the Feminine Imperative, that they already make the perfect Beta provider before they even meet the woman to whom they’ll make their sacrifice.

But what should predispose men to so eagerly want this surrender? Certainly there’s an element of a (false) belief in the possibility of a mutual concept of love between that man and a (potential) woman. It’s what he believes should be possible.

What else? There’s the pre-conditioned belief that this surrender is his masculine duty. Countless Blue Pill pastors make a living belaboring the narrative that men can’t be Men until they mold themselves over the course of a lifetime to be a (once convenient) a woman’s ideal. Literally, manhood is denied to him until he surrenders to the feminine.

The Family Alpha made this observation last week:

Many men have given the power over their inner self entirely to the women of their lives.

While I completely agree, what I’m wondering is why this need to surrender self is an intrinsic aspect in men? The majority of men (80% Betas) are pre-whipped to expect a need to surrender to the women in their lives. Their abdication is so matter of fact that it becomes something subconscious for them.

Is this a characteristic that separates Betas from Alphas? I’d like to think so, but then a distinction needs to be made between being a Strong Independent Alpha who lives up to a positive, pro-social, conventionally masculine role (despite a world arrayed against it) and the same who, though still respectively Alpha, surrenders his sense of self to the woman he idolizes.

SFC Ton had a great comment about this surrender:

“Women do not really have more power……The first step is to realize that this is indeed the case. Men cede power. Men are taught to cede power. Men look for opportunities to cede power. Women just take advantage of men’s largess. A man does not have to be full on Alpha to get this, or to use it to his best advantage in life.”

One thing to consider is how much power have men ceded and to what effect. The surrender is real, both individually and socially. Reclaiming the power ceded in that surrender will be fought in many different scopes. In The Family Alpha’s article, the concern is two fold: the ceding of a man’s inner self, the surrender of identity to the approval of the feminine, and what the consequences are for men once they reclaim or recreate an identity apart from what he allowed the feminine to create for him.

This a significant thing to ponder for men. One reason I believe men become so despondent, so nihilistic, after some trauma that shook them into Red Pill awareness is that their identity, their sense of self, was a result of this ceding of power to women. They literally do not know what to make of themselves once they are cut free from that paradigm, but moreover they must confront the fact that who they are now (at the time of their unplugging) is, in large part, due to that self-surrender. Prior to their unplugging this surrender may have been involuntary for them, but still perhaps not. Their vulnerability and the true potential of permanent damage from it is put out in the open for them and others to realize.

It’s easy to think of men having difficulty getting over their Exes as in some way damaged. Family Alpha’s point was to encourage men to get back on the horse and back in the game and be competitive again, and that’s what I believe is most beneficial for these men. I also believe that it does men no service to prolong feeling sorry for themselves, but again, that’s part of the process of recreating a man. The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them and caused them to believe in, and then confront the consequences of their first vulnerability and surrender to the feminine. Isolation becomes their new form of surrender.

However, it’s also important that they recognize the potential for damage that surrendering, that ceding power, to the feminine represents to them. Red Pill aware men should acknowledge that their real vulnerability will be implied in any relationship they enter into beyond a perfunctory pump & dump. That knowledge should be a source of power that prevents them from overextending themselves once again into surrender to the feminine. They are aware now and that awareness now implies a responsibility to it. It demands that they keep their heads out of the sand and make calculated risks according to that awareness.

Your new Red Pill self has no more excuses of ignorance – your life’s been handed back to you with the full knowledge of the system you’re a part of.

No surrender.

647 comments

  1. Excellent post.

    I would attribute this willingness to the masculine willingness to sacrifice, something that is ingrained in our nature. We appreciate that willingness when it’s in service to a greater good (and, we hope, worthy of note by our respected peers and potential mates) to the point that there are men out there desperate to sacrifice themselves for something. As the Church is no longer a respected option for many, and military service too potentially violent for others, we see several generations of men who have attempted to sacrifice themselves and their ambitions for the the ideals we aspire to.

    It’s tragic that women in our society learn, early on, how to exploit this desire in men, in conjunction with their manipulation of our ideals. That surrender you speak of is born of a legitimate desire, one we have been taught is noble and admirable while our pockets get picked and our families are destroyed around us. Understanding early on the desire to sacrifice, and placing it in proper context, is a good way to help insulate yourself against the excess of the women in your life. If you must sacrifice for the greater good, then make your improvement that greater good and plan accordingly. It’s only when you place a woman you barely know (and anything less than a few years is “barely”) as worthy of your sacrifice that you begin to betray yourself. Understanding your own value and potential for greatness, however you define it, is the best way to remove those princess-colored glasses.

  2. Unconscious programming of men to meet this expectation of surrender, although foreign and detrimental to him, is hard to eliminate. It’s like a recent computer bug written by an inexperienced coder into millions of lines of an engineer’s flawless code. But once introduced, it’s nearly impossible to correct by even the most seasoned programmers.
    Yet, it is fascinating how even a beta man can easily point out that another man is losing his frame, his power – himself to the whims of a woman, even as far as offering advice. However, he himself is incapable of applying any degree of rational thought and decisions to his own interactions with women. Could it be that perhaps we unconsciously recognise this ‘bug’ in each other and in ourselves, even though we are at first powerless to restrain it’s expression until some social catastrophe hit us in the gut, such as a failed marriage, brutal relationship, or depressing streak of rejection. It seems only then does the average man, conditioned to default to women, realises, of course with the help of glimpses of red pill truths, the alien and destructive nature of this programming, this ‘bug’.

    I’ve often caught myself, even when spinning plates, as you put it, falling in love with all the women after I’ve slept with them. A potential oneitis but with several women. Ironic, really, since a proven solution to oneitis is spinning plates. Similarly, a buddy of mine (whom I knew was alpha even before I knew anything about TRP) ‘falls in love’ on occasion. His philosophy, even his psyche, seems to be predicated on self-preservation at the expense of anyone. He’s not selfish per say. Needless to say, women he meets, even his mother often, defaults to him. Yet he sometimes says and does things for certain women that I’d instantly recognise my old beta self saying and doing. As far as I know, he’s never touched a single TRP book or blog.
    Much of my past behaviour is kept in check by reading, introspection and sheer will. It does get exhausting. After all these years, flushing out beta programming by internalising new knowledge has been a weedy path for me. Knowing isn’t enough anymore.
    But I’ll say this much, this is one of the few cases in which ignorance isn’t bliss at all.

  3. It’s hard for some men not to open up and show real emotions to women. I don’t understand it myself but the societal narrative that men should open up plays a part.

    I remember a recently divorced friend regretting crying to his ex-wife in the past. His conclusion: it’s cheaper to buy your buddy a drink and just vent to him. However, it’s against our instincts and nature to show vulnerability to other men. In the past that ensured an extinction. So what to do?

  4. Speaking of surrender… Cuckanada is trying to beat men into submission and force womynz feelz as the law.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-bringing-sexual-assault-law-up-to-speed-with-the-courts-times/article35213485/

    “proposed legislation would spell out for the first time that a complainant’s text messages, e-mails and video recordings with sexual content or a sexual purpose can be kept out of trials. A new provision would subject these messages, including those sent after an alleged assault, to the same rules as evidence of a complainant’s past sexual activity: requiring a judge’s advance approval after a closed hearing for them to be used in a trial.”

  5. I made this mistake (again) recently. I have been a reader of yours for over two years. I thought I had made progress, but I was wrong. I invested myself, in multiple ways – in an objectively extraordinary woman (but AWALT), after apparently not learning enough from the previous one. I have been so thoroughly Beta for so long, that I no longer believe it is possible to change. I am one of Illimitable Man’s “Lost Boys.” I don’t believe in love anymore – in ANY form. The anger phase has turned into the crippling, intractable, endless depression phase.

    I had surrendered to isolation for a while, and I am doubling down on it now – I see no other choice. Red Pill truth has alienated me from everyone, and myself. “Lift, bro” hasn’t worked. Therapy, psych meds, yoga, meditation, monk mode, TRT, helping others, “man up,” “let it go,” “change the way you think,” “practice gratitude,” “be mindful,” etc – none of it has worked or integrated. MGTOW is not a recipe for a happy or satisfying life – I am decent looking, reasonably healthy, reasonably successful in my career, and immersed in hobbies and interests I am passionate about – but I am celibate and miserable, with zero self-esteem.

    Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame). At this point, I want to rid myself of any desire for sex or any form of intimacy or trust, and to never think of it again. I see only one way to effectively do that.

    All of you commenters and Alpha males, feel free to ridicule, call me a pussy, a crybaby, a whiner, etc – have at it. I render those judgments unto myself all day, every day. I am of the opinion that some people can’t be repaired, and have no real value.

    Severe thanks to you for what you do, Rollo. I am glad that some men are able to heal, change course, and actually apply benefit from your wisdom and insight. It certainly has brought value to my life, and it gives me a small feeling of dignity to know that, at whatever point I am gone, I finally lived with awareness of the truth (even though I have sucked at adapting to/applying it). The Feminine Imperative is truly evil, and I am not capable of enjoying the decline.

  6. Insightful as always, Rollo. As an aside, the quote about power cession originated from Blax and was co-signed by Ton down thread.

  7. @Eddie

    I’m not an Alpha. At least not recently.

    “I am celibate and miserable, with zero self-esteem.”

    Why don’t you have self esteem? What happened to get you to not have self esteem?

    At this point, I want to rid myself of any desire for sex or any form of intimacy or trust, and to never think of it again. I see only one way to effectively do that.

    What way is that?

    All of you commenters and Alpha males, feel free to ridicule, call me a pussy, a crybaby, a whiner, etc – have at it.

    That’s not going to happen. I’m sure we can clear a non-judgmental zone. Women aren’t the focus. The focus is you. Despite masculine tribal jostling, despite tribe vs. tribe some of us want to help lost boys if indeed

    What can we help you with?

    In order to help yourself you have to Know Thyself. In order for you, as a commenter, to have us help you, you have to let us know you. What is going on with you? Even if you’ve been done a great disservice by poor parenting, there is still a manosphere tribe willing to help. Your Ego and your cognitive mind are telling you a fiction that your soul can’t overpower. Let it out. There is a way out. Let us and you discover what that is.

  8. >> When a man surrenders himself to the primacy of the feminine, when he makes a woman his mental point of origin, when he alters the course of his life to accommodate her, that’s when he ceases to be someone for whom she’ll willingly submit to.

    I read something in the intro to The Libertine Reader (terrible book, great intro) years ago, about the function of “love” in men and how it relates to civilization.

    Full-on cavemen don’t surrender. He wants, he takes. There was no DELAYED GRATIFICATION in that model. And that works for men.

    As we civilized ourselves… “marriage” became bait for betas to get on board. If only alphas fucked, why should beta’s be a part of the “peace?” Why not revert to caveman tactics, to smash/grab, when they were able?

    So as “smash/grab” was vilified… the hungry man had to court the lady. He had to forgo using his physical power, and start to “romance her.” This put things on HER timetable, not HIS…

    == ^ This is the origin of the surrender.

    So now he pines for that physical satisfaction… which goes against everything “animal” in him. Delayed gratification may be good for civilization, but isn’t animal at all.

    So his “hunger” spins in his head… and he romanticizes the WAIT… romanticizes the MONOGAMY…

    And he calls all this “LOVE.”

    There is your “poetry.”

    == Male SURRENDER is a function of internal JUSTIFICATION for DELAYED GRATIFICATION.

    If he could just “take” her… why not do that? Because… he “loves her,” of course. At that point, the train is off the tracks… and he’s done.

    ……………..

    This is easy to test… find a man that can easily get SEX, and notice the lack of surrender. When there is little/no delay between desire and satisfaction… there is no need to surrender, no need to compromise.

    When you’re getting what you want (HINT: you get that from a pool of ever-changing women)… what is the point of negotiation???

  9. So what are the characteristics of a man who has not surrendered / ceded power in a marriage or LTR? How does that play out in practical terms? Do you have to spin plates to refuse to surrender?

  10. I can sympathise with Eddie. I’ve improved my weight and build, my appearance and wardrobe, my income, but I can’t change some things. Height being the main one. And truth be told, being tall is a real blessing for a man.

    The other thing I can’t easily change is my marital status without quite literally fucking up my kids’ life prospects. The stats clearly show how kids from broken families do (drinking and drugs, crime etc). I won’t do that to my kids even if I have decided that I don’t want to salvage my marriage.

    There is another point beyond surrender, and that is subjugation – total and utter surrender. Shit like being relegated to the “man cave”, being nagged for relaxing in front of the television after work and not spending every single free moment doing household chores.

  11. Eddie Willers
    June 20, 2017 at 7:44 pm

    What works is a few years in an outlaw biker gang.

    What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

  12. @Mineter

    Height destroyer game:

    “Take a gander at the Giganticus Awdwardus freak show”

    “How does the Frankenstein Monster hide the bolts in his neck?”

    There are none so small as those who let height prevent them from approaching women. If you understand about getting in a woman’s grill, you can fill her grill and she won’t see other men–even those who are much taller than you. If you believe that height is a big deal, so will she. If you don’t believe that height is a big deal, neither will women.

  13. theasdgamer
    June 20, 2017 at 10:18 pm

    Even height is no advantage if you don’t have game. At 18 I was 6′ 1 1/2″ tall. Without game I could barely get a nod let alone a kiss or more.

    Attitude. Just ask Mickey Rooney.

  14. @ASD @M Simon
    True. Height or lack thereof is no guarantee of success or failure with women. (Same goes for having money.) But it certainly sets the game on a harder mode.

  15. @Rollo:
    women are “designed” (by evolution) to elicit this desire of surrender in men. Even RP-aware men (who are better equipped to resist the “Siren song”, but can still too easily succumb).

    It has been like this for a while, it isn’t just the current FI-dominated social environment. You even mentioned Ovid (although certainly the Roman Empire at certain stages was also quite FI-dominated).

  16. @Mineter

    Height really only affects the distribution of low-hanging fruit. Its impact is minimal.

    To get laid with low-hanging fruit, you need:

    1. Fuckup Avoidance Game

    2. Enough confidence to walk up to a girl and introduce yourself

    3. Confidence to escalate and isolate and instigate for sex

    There’s almost always some low-hanging fruit for everybody.

  17. @Eddie Willers

    “Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame)”

    You are trying to think your way out of betahood. This is not gonna happen. You have to lead as much an alpha life as possible to internalize what you read.

    If you want to learn game, I would suggest downloading rsdmax’s “The Natural,” and after watching every video, do the “mission/call to action” he suggests at the end. You can find this on “pick up torrents” reddit or maybe at iDose. If you do that, there is no way you won’t change.

    The advise I was given when I first posted here was that TAKING ACTION is the only thing that matters.

    “I am of the opinion that some people can’t be repaired, and have no real value”

    Take ACTION for a year, and only then say that. This is bullshit.

  18. @Eddie
    Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame).

    These things take time but are not always attainable. But that’s no reason to despair. I myself will never develop effective Game – the damage is too deep in my psyche. But little victories like chatting up all girls I meet give me some satisfaction. Reasserting Frame is doable and in-progress.

    It surely is not all hopeless. Cling to your minor victories and whatever progress you’ve made. Build on them.

  19. Regarding height

    I used to think this was one of my major shortcomings (hehe). I was 5’5.5″ in my prime, now more like 5’4″ due to age. Shoe-lifts help me get closer to 5’6″ and my current girl who’s 5’6″ doesn’t mention the change when I take off the shoes. I lift and I can lift her up, which helps during shower sex.

    So at 5’4″ and 150lbs, lifting and obtaining muscle mass, dressing well, and attitude (Frame) are mandatory for the short guy. The muscle mass isn’t just for the girls – other guys don’t fuck with me.

    I’m never going to walk into a bar/club and play pickup or be the main attraction in a group, but in a one-on-one my height disadvantage is minimal. The main disadvantage is Game – which counts for 90% of the interaction.

  20. @ Mineter re: divorce

    Do some more reading. I had the same initial reaction a few years back (stay in the marriage… Bad for the kids…etc) while considering my divorce- which I eventually went through with.

    Afraid I was really gonna fuck EM up, I googled a dozen articles or so, but you have to look at the bias (e.g. Funded or promoted by the XYZ Organization for Family Values) and take that into account. Some, as I recall, parrot and/or intentionally use each other’s stats. I didn’t read TRM at the time, so wasn’t looking for the FI in play… Just salesmen selling their spin.

    My unprofessional cliffs notes version of the divorce impact on kids hierarchy:

    Married, stable parental environment
    Divorced, stable parental environment
    Married, unstable
    Divorced, unstable

    Oh & the older the kids (I don’t recall the threshold age)- the better off they digest it.

    Obviously, “stability” is analog, so the more of a shitshow your marriage/divorce is, the worse off for the kids. Also ask yourself what the trend is- is your marriage becoming more of a shitshow.

    My single datapoint of personal experience: I went from MU to DS and my kids are doing MUCH better a few years later.

  21. Mineter,

    I’ve been where you’re at. My youngest was 10 when I wanted to GTFO.

    I stuck it out until she went to college. I’ve never regretted it because my ex was such an insane bitch when the divorce went down, if the kids were still home it would have torn them apart.

    Another reason is I absolutely could not handle a new “boyfriend” living with my daughters. Fuck that.

    And you may already be doing this, but if not, just start doing what you know is right. Take back the frame. Live your life and follow your interests, then divorce when you’re prepped and ready.

  22. My marriage isn’t a shitshow, fortunately. But it ain’t rosey. I think kids can pick up on that. Still, being civil in a dead marriage beats risking her having the kids over with a new partner.

    The “long” game, ie her best case scenario is that I’ll hang around until the youngest finishes high school. There is absolutely no point whatsoever for me to hang around.

    The “medium” game is for me to see the youngest get good primary school grades to get into our high school of choice.

    The “short” game is that I’ll leave as soon as I get some things prepared. Which every man should have done regardless of how good he thinks his LTR is (document backup, go money).

    I’ve calculated how much she’d get from statutory child support and government benefits. She’d be well fucked, even in a 100% custody scenario in her favour. She blanched when I showed her the figures.

  23. Despite tons of reading and book purchases, I have made no real progress toward being an effective Red Pill man (in practice), and developing effective Frame and Game seem like a pipe dream (especially Frame). At this point, I want to rid myself of any desire for sex or any form of intimacy or trust, and to never think of it again. I see only one way to effectively do that.

    Eddie —

    Well, you won’t be able to do that, so you need a different plan. Men need sex like we need water — it’s something you can’t just wish away, and therefore something you need to deal with.

    Most importantly, though, you need to want to change your life for yourself — not to get girls, but for yourself, for the rest of what you do in the world. If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that — but you need to *do* it. You’ve probably read more than enough at this point, the next step is doing, and I don’t mean necessarily running Game (although that’s good), but rather reorienting your life and mindset around your own point of origin. Re-orient your life, quite apart from girls, and live the life you *want* to lead, not a kind of half-life you seem to be condemning yourself to. But you have to decide what that is, and what it looks like, and then you have to actually *do* it. You can do it, anyone can, but you have to want to do it, you have to know where you want to go, and you have to stick with it.

    True. Height or lack thereof is no guarantee of success or failure with women. (Same goes for having money.) But it certainly sets the game on a harder mode.

    Mineter —

    Eh, somewhat. Yes, if you’re smaller you need to have some other stuff going on in a better way off the bat, like dress, build/fitness and Game, but it’s really not that much of a big deal. Are there some girls who will never date a guy who is 5’5″? Yes, there are. But there are many more who will, if he has the rest of the package. A key part of that is not caring that much about your height, because you have maxed out in the other areas, and you’re confident based on that. Confidence which is based on things that form an obvious and observable basis for that confidence is much more important to most girls than outright height is.

  24. @Mineter

    About height, I am 6 feet tall, which here in Spain is well above average, and at 27 still haven’t
    gotten laid without opening my wallet. I think it helps you but in and of itself it won’t be the key element. In fact, in my case it might have been even detrimental because I subconsciously assumed that thanks to it I did not have to worry too much about my overall appearance.

    I have a far shorter buddy who is on his 4th LTR. He has always been a better dresser than myself. His girlfriends are not 9s but decent enough, especially a visiting American student I did really fancy. He has a very important quality in my view, which is being able to swap personae: he can be having a serious, high brow conversation with you, and suddenly chat up the waitress in the most flippant way imaginable. I lack that flexibility.

    @Eddie

    I really feel for you. I have never had a girlfriend or anything close but still could have written a lot of what you did, particularly this: “I want to rid myself of any desire for sex or any form of intimacy or trust, and to never think of it again.”

    Is it really possible? I wonder if those pills serial rapists are given do work in that sense or simply “switch you off”. Personally I don’t read novels or watch movies and series anymore, since I don’t want to have love/sex stories rubbed on my face. Nonetheless since I am a social science guy gender dynamics always pop up some way or another in what I read. Maybe as a STEM person I would be happily lost in mathematical abstraction and not think about anything else.

    To me the worst effect of being incel is not the lack of sex in itself, but the crushing cynicism that it creates in you. Like, why bother with anything? As a kid I had an intense desire to succeed in life, to contribute to my country in some way, but now that is totally gone. Around age 24 I also started to have suicidal thoughts. Yet I am not depressed, I have checked the symptons. Whatever it is, it really makes you apathetic about life.

  25. I suppose it’s been 6-7 years of red pill for me (red pill in my personal life, for some reason I had no problem leading in my professional life). My latest observation is that I know exactly one guy, out of 50 friends and acquaintances, who might be described as red pill. (And he doesn’t even know what the term refers to.) Maybe there are a couple more back east, but I’m not in touch.

    I think I know a lot of fairly studly men, but THEY ALL serve the feminine imperative.

    For example, my lawyer is the county attorney — married, happy, but previously divorced three times so he spent a few decades crawling on broken glass. Simply noting (and this to a lawyer who’s been creamed in divorce!) how marriage is a very bad deal in the USA, causes him to protest reflexively. I don’t press the matter. It’s BadThought. I’m driving in the wrong lane.

    The most successful guy I know at the moment — $15mm farm from nothing, second best seed salesman for the major vendor — is totally in the ‘happy wife, happy life’ department. I just sit silently while he unloads and tells me how she runs him ragged. Based on how well she takes care of herself (unusual in the upper midwest), she probably just wants to be fucked more often, but I’m not going there with him.

    The woman I dated for a couple of years, at her instigation, is married and gave me new insight into “dead bedroom.” I had no idea that a woman could have such contempt for a husband. She’s outwardly respectful, and socially responsible to him — but holds him in utter sexual contempt.

    The pastor is in the ‘turn the other cheek, and grovel’ middle school of life. He’s fun.

    Yet the last time I went to a bar, two girls (because I really DGAF these days) half my age were making out with me — at the same time, in public — and letting me feel them up. And I wasn’t duded up; I hadn’t showered in two days and had just gotten off a tractor; dirt was caked to my neck.

    I think Palahniuk’s gripping insight was how truly secret the the secret society of red pill is. If you recall from the movie, even Norton had no idea how far he’d gone to the other side. I suspect because we cross paths on the internet we over-estimate how many of us there are. Candidly, I find the red pill truths to be extremely isolating. There aren’t a lot of people who live where we live.

  26. Put another way, Norton’s character suggests the red pill (from a social reality perspective) renders us insane. When I interact with my children or close, lifelong friends, the thought has occurred to me.

  27. Stephen King, in his great book Pet Semetery, has a scene where the husband hero Louis Creed is considering neutering the cat. He doesn’t want to because he likes the pet’s fierce nature and masculine hunting spirit. When, in the end, he succumbs to necessity and does what the females in the house want (his wife and daughter, who supposedly love the tomcat but only love its cuteness), their reaction for his sacrifice on their behalf is this: they have zero appreciation for the loss of the spirit of the cat or what it represents to him. The daughter and wife are completely solipsistic.

    In real life, King moved to Bangor over the wishes of his wife, Tabitha. She wanted to live the fancy life in Portland — where such society as Maine has is located. Like all women, she is a social climber and addicted to society. King had to literally FORCE HER HAND to have his own, normal life. He didn’t want to climb, he just wanted to live, with a few real friends at his side, a baseball game in the park now and then, a burger in public like a regular guy. Not high society in Portland and the fakery that would have choked him and poisoned him — but his wife sure loved the fakery idea for herself.

    We can see here true women’s natures — their utter lack of caring for the men in their lives and their total selfishness bordering on destructive madness that would annihilate most relationships if men were attuned to what it meant. As for why men are so inclined to bow and scrape toward chicks, easy: they were tortured and conditioned as baby boys by their mothers, and then this dirty secret was tucked away and hidden away for future use by other women, like a warm quilt to be brought out later.

    — xwarper.wordpress.com

  28. Buenavista,

    Agreed on the scarcity of RP men. The FI so thoroughly permeates our culture, hell it is our culture, that the average guy has absolutely no clue that there’s a better way of life. He has no idea that he’s been raised from birth to feed, facilitate and support the FI. Like a fattened calf being raised to slaughter.

    And even when he gets any insight that he’s been duped, that there might be another way, it’s so daunting, or it’s so difficult to kill the beta, that he slides right back into the matrix.

  29. @BuenaVista

    The problem out there is that too many men still follow an “honor code” that no longer applies in our society.

    If like me you have been raised in an intact and functional family of married mom & dad, chances are you were brought up in values such as integrity, honesty, politeness, discipline, work. I was for sure. Great values, no doubt, but meant for a healthier society which could put them to good use. In the current mess, they more often than not will lead to AFCdom. We are still civilized in the West for sure, but not quite the same as 50 years ago. You don’t have to go full psycho yet, but you have to be cheekier, colder, more manipulative and calculating.

    It has been noted here how many tough military dudes are solidly blue pill despite their obvious physical or even mental masculinity. It is not weird, really. They are the most poignant example of the risks involved in keeping an obsolete moral mindset.

    Weak and henpecked husbands have always been there. I have heard that it was customary for many workers to give all their money to their wives on payday, and similar stuff. But back then that was not a big deal being “beta” in that way, because society was arranged so that higher things could be achieved beyond sexual satisfaction, and men could afford being more deferential to women.

    What really blew my mind RP-wise was realizing that contrary to conventional wisdom, it was the traditional Western society which was far more advanced than our own.

  30. Buena. iH

    Great post Buena. Post moar.

    And yet even in the context of a RP guy splaining RP the FI creeps in:

    “and letting me feel them up”

    Hit it HABD! Pervasive…

    Girls don’t “let you” feel them up… They are felt up. Because they want it.

  31. “What really blew my mind RP-wise was realizing that contrary to conventional wisdom, it was the traditional Western society”

    Our society is steeped in the male zombifying Golden Rule… Beta kool aid.

    Embrace the Platinum Rule [do whatever YOU want to do whenever YOU want to do it] and watch how easy RP’ing becomes…

    Flip the switch. Act.

    Reep the rewards…

  32. @ Eddie

    Novaseeker beat me to the punch with great insight.

    Realise that what you’ve attempted is a monumental task my friend. Hard work. Hard work automatically excludes one from not being ” worthy “. Remember, you are becoming an expert in *you*, and just like becoming an expert at anything, you will run into pitfalls and frustration.

    At times like these I’ve always found it helpful to slow down. Way down if necessary. Most often gaining understanding is easier than the application of the new found knowledge. We tend to doubt if we can really be ” different “. We might just long for The Easy, even if we now understand how detrimental it was. I think this is pretty common.

    Your RP self is busy judging your BP self. Time to stop looking backwards as it’s causing too much inner conflict. It’s not really an option to to back. Like, you’ll never believe in Santa or the tooth fairy again.

    If you wish that you didn’t want ” women ” any longer, that could actually be a sign of real progress. What you’re saying is that you wish not to have women under blue pill paradigms. The remnants of the beta are still occupying the recesses of your mind. The conflict is real, but utterly manageable. Believe this.

    If a man has been kept in the darkness for most of his life, sunshine will initially blind him and be extremely uncomfortable. His eyes will eventually adapt and function as they were intended. Don’t doubt yourself, you can get a firm hold on life. It’s a matter of pending adaptation.

    Hang tough and hold fast.

  33. @ Oscar

    I have an Honor Code that I make the choice to live by. My sense of ” honor ” is a personal choice that I’ve made solely for myself. It is now, and always has been independent of society at large. Society benefits indirectly from my personal choice, but society is never a consideration.

    MPO.

    Men must grasp that they always have the independent power to make choices. As an extreme example, look at terror attacks carried out by men who decide not to give any fucks about social norms. Then look at the reactions by broader, rule following society in the wake of such attacks. Horror and disbelief.

    Choices.

    My personal honor code is the exact opposite of a terrorist. It is a personal choice I’ve made and live by, and it’s not affected by the rest of society at all.

    Looking for recognition is an awful tactic for men in general. A strong sense of self, proven, negates any manner of lack of self esteem. Only you can lower your self esteem and conversely, only you can raise it.

    Society, at the end of the day, is a non factor.

  34. Eddie W – I once knew a guy who — by some strange twist — came into possession of one of those large Beretta type birds (cockatoo?). Living in an apartment, the guy would let the bird out on his small 10×10 patio with the privacy fence (lol).

    One day when the bird was out on the patio and the guy wasn’t watching, a neighbor’s cat pounced and bye-bye birdie. I thought it was funny buy he was mad a hell, wanting to track that cat down or its owner blah blah blah

    I said, “Dude, it’s a cat, that’s what they do.” He refused culpability and could only find fault in the cat.

    Somewhere in that story is a parable about man’s vulnerability to his own idealism. The world doesn’t care about your ideals. They can and will be used against you.

    But knowledge and awareness are just the beginning. Knowing you’re being punched in the face won’t stop it. So I will parrot (ha!) what many others here have said by suggesting more action and less pontificating.

  35. point was to encourage men to get back on the horse and back in the game and be competitive again, and that’s what I believe is most beneficial for these men.

    goddamn right it is.

    The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them

    this is a necessary evil. how’s he going to become his own center if he immerses himself in the game ceaselessly.. in that way, chasing new chicks can be a crutch, or a drug even. The burnt man has to regroup, has to rediscover and refocus himself. It’s necessary for a time, however short. In my experience, the spans of time I’ve been able to accomplish this have been relatively short, because even when I’m not looking, some new chick finds me, and off we go. The important thing is how you use this time in isolation. It can be brutal if you let it. It really boils down to a new opportunity in which you DO have complete control of your own Frame, to create and mold as you wish, and now is the time to design and implement it. At no other time in your life might you have the liberty to make radical changes, because on the whole, based on your having been burnt, people will just chalk it up to you having ‘lost it’. But when they see you in the new light, and are undoubtedly impressed with the results.. you can see the subtle sort of pleasurable discomfort in them as they realize you are actually on your game, in control, stable, and looking better than ever.

  36. @ SJF:

    “Why don’t you have self esteem? What happened to get you to not have self esteem?”

    It’s been a problem for my entire life. I even believe in a philosophy heavily based on rational self-interest, self-esteem, etc. I’ve always sucked at implementing it (poor frame). Oneitis for, and swift discard by, someone likely high on the narcissistic scale, certainly made it worse.

    “What way is that?”

    Not being alive anymore. But, nobody needs to be alarmed or call the authorities – this is not a statement of suicidal intent.

    “What can we help you with?”

    I don’t think that there is anything. Most any advice I’ve ever seen in the comments on this site is anything I haven’t yet seen. I guess I am just venting, at my wit’s end.

    @ Mineter:

    “I can sympathise with Eddie. I’ve improved my weight and build, my appearance and wardrobe, my income, but I can’t change some things. Height being the main one. And truth be told, being tall is a real blessing for a man.”

    I am over 6 feet – I can’t really say that it helps me at all. It’s certainly not enough to counter the insecurity and lack of confidence that women likely smell from a mile away. I have been oblivious to most any IOIs, wherever they existed, my whole life.

    @ anon01:

    “The advise I was given when I first posted here was that TAKING ACTION is the only thing that matters.”

    “Take ACTION for a year, and only then say that. This is bullshit.”

    This is essentially the same thing most anyone with brains in the manosphere says, and you are right. I have taken various forms of action for over two years. They don’t stick, integrate, or become lifelong habits. This is a different problem/conversation entirely. Feel free to re-read my initial message to see the things I have done/tried.

    I will check out more of the RSD stuff, I guess. I just don’t see how it’s going to build frame – inside.

    @ Novaseeker

    “Men need sex like we need water — it’s something you can’t just wish away, and therefore something you need to deal with.”

    Right. Hence there is only really ONE way – not being alive anymore. Though, there are some men who got chemical castration, and a rare few of them don’t have side effects. Dealing with it by masturbation is not an option I care to pursue ever again.

    “Most importantly, though, you need to want to change your life for yourself — not to get girls, but for yourself, for the rest of what you do in the world.”

    Right, well, that actually has been my focus. I thought I was doing well enough to get back out there. Right now I think that I’ll be lucky if I have my internal shit together well enough in 10 or more years, when my libido and functionality are likely to be a fraction of they once were. I doubt I am going to be able to look back on a life that has been mostly sexless with much of any satisfaction or sense of accomplishment. I am already past my peak SMV, with less to show for it than plenty of men in their mid-20s.

    “If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that”

    I am not really interested in “girls” – I have a “type,” and right now it seems clear that said type will be forever out of my league. I am not even really talking about the hottest girls or the 8s/9s/10s. I don’t really have the sort of game or frame I need to spin plates. Abundance mentality has never taken hold in me, even when trying to fake it.

    Anyway, all your points are salient – for the most part, I do live the life I want, and have worked to better follow this advice from the beginning of my unplugging. But, if anything, I am less happy. I fully admit that depression greatly dampens my energy, motivation, and drive to really be effective at any of the self-improving things I do/should be doing.

    @ Oscar C

    “Is it really possible? I wonder if those pills serial rapists are given do work in that sense or simply ‘switch you off’.”

    Well…

    http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/11/what-its-like-to-be-chemically-castrated.html

    “To me the worst effect of being incel is not the lack of sex in itself, but the crushing cynicism that it creates in you. Like, why bother with anything? As a kid I had an intense desire to succeed in life, to contribute to my country in some way, but now that is totally gone. Around age 24 I also started to have suicidal thoughts. Yet I am not depressed, I have checked the symptons. Whatever it is, it really makes you apathetic about life.”

    Yep. Exactly this. After 25+ years of post-puberty, and long-term pervasive awareness of the effects of the Feminine Imperative and mass socialism/fascism/collectivism, the hopelessness really adds up.

  37. It is an intuitive fact that there are very few red pill aware and game skilled men out there to be mentors, mentees or colleagues.

    But that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there scattered around. It does not mean you shouldn’t pursue having relationships (in a fight club manner) with them.

    I have a handful of red pill guy friends in real life (and quite a few more non blue pill friends). I pursued and established a relationship with them when the opportunity presented itself. Those relationships are invaluable.

    You can have desire to this. You can have inner intention to do this (want). You need to have outward intention to do this (Act. Grab the opportunity when it presents itself). It starts with desire and is manifested by action.

    Question: If Eddie Willers saw an opportunity to have Blaximus as his Red Pill God-father in real life, would it help him? Would he take advantage of it?

    That’s an Apex Fantasy of course. What’s wrong with moving toward the goal of having other red pill men in your life as friends or mentors?

  38. Funny as Hell Field Report

    Daughter Gamer got an eyeful recently when Mrs. Gamer was grabbing for my package in front of daughter. Daughter Gamer had believed Mrs. Gamer’s nonsense when Mrs. Gamer talked about her bad feelz caused by yours truly to Daughter Gamer. Daughter Gamer now knows that Mrs. Gamer is in love with me because daughter saw the evidence herself. Of course, Daughter Gamer will still sympathize with Mrs. Gamer’s bad feelz the next time Mrs. Gamer calls Daughter Gamer to complain.

    Mrs. Gamer deliberately showed off in front of daughter…funny as hell at the time…of course, I’m still such a Bad Person ™ lol

  39. “The very act, the very thought, of surrendering his life’s imperative to the trust that a woman wont exercise the unimaginable control and potential for damage she has in his life is a vulnerability no woman will ever recognize or acknowledge; nor will the sacrifices that come from this vulnerability ever be something she has a capacity to appreciate.”

    Lookin' fine mama

    A post shared by Mikhaila Peterson (@mikhailapeterson) on

    Life

    Happy mothers day! @tammyrmtpeterson

    A post shared by Mikhaila Peterson (@mikhailapeterson) on

    Goes

    1 year with this guy right here ❤️

    A post shared by Mikhaila Peterson (@mikhailapeterson) on

    On

  40. Eddie, where do you live? I am willing to bet that there are men in your town or city that would be willing to serve as a sounding board and a mentor. Id where you live and I bet that there are guy who you can exchange contact info and start from there. Don’t give up. Reach out.

  41. @Blaximus

    Good to hear that you stick to your own rules but I fear that’s too much introspection for the average man. Herd instincts are not only the province of women, even if they are more prone to them. Ideally we should all carve our own path in life, but that won’t happen for many dudes out there. That’s why a healthy society which prioritizes virtue is so important.

    @Eddie

    Thanks for the reply and the link. So yeah, even after the chemical castration he still likes women, even if not as intensely as before; not for me, then.

    I am sorry I can not offer you much advice. I learn foreign languages and since that is a long term effort it can give you some sense of accomplishment. In my case I never wanted marriage or kids so not having either of them is not a problem.

    You quoted somebody else saying: ““If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that””

    This is easily the lie of the century. Girls never “materialize” out of thin air. You have to chase them. Depending on your status the chase will be easier or more hazardous, but there will always be a chase.

  42. @Eddie

    I’ve been there myself, there are lots of phases of unplugging, and even stages of self inspection within the phases.

    At one point I took a year off sex, stopped approaching, stopped pursuing and declined all offers that I got.

    Watching a woman’s face when you politely decline her approach / attempt to engage you is educational, and I think this is the MGTOW fantasy.

    If you stick with it eventually, you’ll get what you want from women on your own terms for the bulk of the time.

    It does get easier but full acceptance of TRP is lonely hence a load of us hang out here.

  43. “Norton’s character suggests the red pill (from a social reality perspective) renders us insane.”

    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is a paranoid schizophrenic.

    ” . . . red pill aware and game skilled men out there to be mentors, mentees or colleagues.”

    @Eddie:

    SJF beat me to it. This is what you need. Ideally to be immersed in them.

    @Oscar: “. . . chances are you were brought up in values such as integrity, honesty, politeness, discipline, work.”

    Which are good values, among groups of men.

  44. @Rugby:

    OK, I’ll pile on. I think Samurai Champloo is interesting to watch through a red pill lens, but could you explain why you thought it was worth posting here?

  45. Oscar – taking Novaseeker’s statement “If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that” as a lie is disingenuous. Nova was referring to “change your life for yourself ” which, in that context, is absolutely true.

    To take it further, he’s suggesting you make yourself your MPO, not women, not society, not anybody nor anything else.

    And the term materialize isn’t being used in a magical, no-effort required way. It means that your new, internalized aura of being an RP man will give you the power to control your own destiny, with women or anything else, and it only seems no-effort because it’s *who you now are* that will bring the things you desire.

    As a house-building analogy, when your foundation is stable and strong, then it’s time to build the house. Yes, you still have to design and go get the materials, but since that’s now all your own terms, your perception of it will be of opportunity, not dismay and despair.

  46. Somewhere in that story is a parable about man’s vulnerability to his own idealism. The world doesn’t care about your ideals. They can and will be used against you.

    Absolutely goddamn right. Greene’s law 38 applies. Even (especially) to yourself.

  47. @Eddie: Many have been down the same path. I won’t lie; it is a tough, lonely path. If you can’t find a mentor, then find a young person you can coach. You have invested a lot of time and effort in learning the RP tenants and truths. Don’t let it go waste. Even if you find it hard to implement GAME and hold Frame, when you see your protégé benefit from applying the knowledge he learnt form you, it will be very rewarding.

  48. @Eddie Willers

    “I have taken various forms of action for over two years. They don’t stick, integrate, or become lifelong habits”

    “I just don’t see how it’s going to build frame – inside.”

    I don’t understand this. Let’s say I want Calum von Moger’s internal frame on lifting. He probably usually likes going to the gym and pumping iron, and sometimes might feel like not doing it but he goes anyway and does it.

    Integrating his frame would mean I am thinking and acting like that. However, if I just GO to the gym like he does even if I don’t like it, we both lead the same life. Maybe someday I’ll have the same mindset, maybe I’ll hate lifting till the day I can’t lift anymore. But, as long as I act correctly that’s what matters.

    The same way I see game. My natural inclination would be to go by my day with as little social interaction as possible, fail a lot of shit-tests, etc. My misguided mindset/personality would produce daily misguided actions. But now, I’ve read trm, I know what good game is etc; following the process is the only thing that matters. I guarantee you this will gradually change your personality. Take a HEXACO test today, and one after you’ve taken corrective action for a year or so. You will not be the same man. But don’t “check out” rsdmax’s stuff. DO THE MISSIONS. They videos are useless otherwise.

  49. @Oscar C

    You quoted somebody else saying: ““If you do that, and do it well, girls will materialize in your life as a side effect of that””
    This is easily the lie of the century. Girls never “materialize” out of thin air. You have to chase them.

    If your status is high enough (AlphaRockbandDrummer, Frank Fratman, Harley McThug), there will be lots of low-hanging fruit. If you do the self-improvement work, and achieve unconscious competence, then it will seem like girls just materialize out of thin air.

    Have you heard of Indirect Game? Indirect Game aims to get the girl to do a lot of the chasing. If you can demonstrate high value and get girls to work on qualifying for you, then they will chase you. Surely you’ve seen guys in Spain who always get girls without expending much effort.

  50. Oscar

    “This is easily the lie of the century. Girls never “materialize” out of thin air. You have to chase them”

    depends… If you are sitting in your room alone, probably not. If you are out though you increase the probabilities dramatically. She might just turn the corner in a hotel hallway, or an elevator door opens, or she takes the stool next to you at a bar… 🍸

    The more you fish in stocked ponds the more dish you can catch 🐟.

  51. @Eddie

    I have a type.

    You don’t know your type at all due to lack of experience.

    You need two things in combination to get you out of your funk, and PUA style girl chasing is not one of them.

    1. You need a 5, maybe if you’re lucky a 6, who is a sweet girl, who has a good family, and who you will recognize instantly as knowing how to treat a man she is attracted to. This girl is somewhat simple, and easy to love back. This girl is 2 SMV points below you.

    2. An abundance of sex. This girl should have a healthy libido.

    These two things combined in a mini-LTR, will lift your self esteem. It will put the pep back in your step.

    Why?

    Because what you’re really lacking is someone (anyone) showing their love for you, directly to you, letting you know they think you are awesome. Therefore, you have zero extrinsic reward for any positive changes you might make. Intrinsic motivation can only go so far. You are not built to use PUA as a means of fulfillment, at least not yet. Though you can certainly leverage some of that to initiate with the girl. Making that your game will only add to your frustration. For now, you just need some love.

    She doesn’t have to be anywhere near perfect. Chances are the relationship is temporary. Whatever you want, it’s your terms. You are Outcome Independent. You are simply living in the present, accepting what she is offering you. You may walk away at the first sign of problems, or by all means, stick around through a few of them and experiment (i.e. practice) working her over with your frame and your RP knowledge. Take notes.

    You’re not enjoying living your life because you are not living it.

    Don’t let TRP dissuade you from embracing an imperfect relationship.

    that’s worth repeating..

    Don’t let TRP dissuade you from embracing an imperfect relationship.

    The key objective is this.. She must chase you. You need to experience what it is like to have the girl chasing you, and you need to cure your malaise by having someone really care about you for a while, even if she’s not much. You need to experience Rollo’s if a girl wants to fuck you, she will find a way.. first hand.

    Importantly, you are going to begin this relationship with a confidence you don’t really own, and you are going to bury and hide your self esteem issue from her at all costs. You will never let her see your negative emotions. You are going to carry yourself like a master of life when you are around her. In doing this, you will start to see that the good things you have actually done in the past, are of value. That you are not as down as you think.. that you really do have many things to be proud of..

    You must find out if the Internal frame you’ve been building is sound (good foundation as mentioned by another comment).

    Only through applying it to real relationships can you do that.

    Because you aren’t fit for conventional PUA (at the moment), yes, I’m suggesting you pick some easy fruit, and use her for a while for the 2 she will readily give you, sex and real affection, that girls of your “type” can’t or won’t.

    In going through this exercise, many of the other problems in your life will ease up, and you’ll have gained experience.

  52. @dr zipper

    Point taken. I just wanted to make clear that waking up motivated every day and having an array of personal or professional interests you pursue is NOT enough to get laid. Ditto for having an “interesting” life. It is a blue pill idea that for some reason still gets a lot of traction in the manosphere.

  53. Okay, Oscar, you’re right: being good at a specific interest/endeavor isn’t always enough for success with women. But I can’t seem to find anyone here making those assertions, maybe you’re seeing it on another manosphere site.

    Regardless, lack of success with women is not the problem, it’s a symptom. It’s not about the fucking women or the world, it’s about you.

  54. @theasdgamer

    Yes, of course, rockstars and celebrities don’t need to worry. Very attractive men will also get tons of IOIs.

    I think that in a weird way confidence was counter-productive for me when I was younger; being tall and relatively handsome, and not socially awkward, I thought girls would not be a problem. I of course did not know much about hypergamy.

    Indirect Game sounds like fun, I recall reading that it is great to friendzone girls…

    About Spain, well, CH has an old post worth reading “Is Spain the worst country in the world for players?”:

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/is-spain-the-worst-country-in-the-world-for-players/

    Of course given my inexperience I don’t really know, but I think women are a bit more hard-to-get, with less chances of ONS and more emphasis on LTRs… We don’t have your campus experience and the hookup culture that goes with it here, since many students are from the same town the university is in. It is normal to live with your parents until your thirties these days, and that surely has an impact.

    I don’t live in either Madrid or Barcelona, where things are probably very different regarding no-strings-attached sex. Spain is a country that experienced the sexual revolution belatedly, and I think we have not reached your level yet.

    Naturally being sexually inactive I am largely out of the loop. I trust Rollo here because even if he does probably not know much about Spain I can totally identify some of his observations in my past experiences.

    @Sentient

    Yes, that is the idea. But to put it more bluntly, “bangs” don’t materialize, only opportunities: the girl in the elevator, at the bar, etc still have to be chatted up and chased. Chased not from a position of neediness, for sure, but men always have to escalate. Very few girls will ask you out.

  55. @Rugby:

    Thank you.

    @Oscar:

    Once upon a time, as a demonstration to his students of the possibilities of technique, Lee Wulff (the inventor of the fishing vest) tied a fly to ordinary sewing thread, cast it without a rod or reel, hooked and landed a 6 kilogram salmon.

    I emphasized the landed because that was the real tricky bit that only an expert at playing fish could accomplish.

    I assure you that it is not some blue pill fantasy that women will materialize and even “hook” themselves to you, but you still have to know that they’ve done so and how to play them if you wish to land them.

    For now I won’t bring up flying fish which will simply leap into your boat. One step at a time.

  56. The risk then becomes a sort of new surrender wherein men drop out and isolate themselves aways from the system that held them and caused them to believe in, and then confront the consequences of their first vulnerability and surrender to the feminine. Isolation becomes their new form of surrender.

    If you mean MGTOW, then I wouldn’t describe that as weakness. However just as most men can’t be Alpha, most men aren’t going to be MGTOW. The biological imperative is too strong.

  57. ” . . . “bangs” don’t materialize, only opportunities . . .”

    Well, yeah. Even money found on the sidewalk is nothing more than an opportunity. You still have to take the trouble to pick it up.

    “Very few girls will ask you out.”

    But they will ask you to ask them out. Of course, if you don’t understand what they’re saying you might just walk right by and not pick them up.

  58. Oscar

    chased. Chased not from a position of neediness, for sure, but men always have to escalate. Very few girls will ask you out.

    escalating is not chasing. And as kfg says, do you understand what they are saying???

    Lastly girls will ask you out… with persistence. Not all girls sure. Once a girl asked me to dance. I said no thanks. She asked if I wanted a drink. No thanks. She finally asked if I wanted breakfast. I said Ok to that. Ate, banged her twice at my place. Then she said she loved me… which was terrifying because I didn;t know her at all, nor she me…

  59. Oscar

    I just wanted to make clear that waking up motivated every day and having an array of personal or professional interests you pursue is NOT enough to get laid. Ditto for having an “interesting” life.

    It is enough for generating female attraction though… The dynamic, passionate and authentic traits on display – the Alpha Triad.

    How much of this do you display? With what regularity?

  60. Echoing @tuffluv: what he says is what is truly meant by the catch phrase “fake it till you make it.” As in: You force yourself to maintain the external frame. By doing so, and sticking with it, you become more comfortable doing it, and you begin to internalize it. The more you do it the easier it gets.

    Put another way, it’s the “technical” form of stage acting instead of the “method” form where you try to generate the internal emotions of the character and then express them outwardly. It’s more like Laurence Olivier’s famous quip: once he put on the right kind of false nose, and he had the look he wanted, he knew how to play the character.

    It’s not really fake. It’s you changing your MPO via an external exercise. Or a “Mission” if you prefer. All of this has been preached by many another, wiser sensei over the years on many forums.

    Another old-time famous exercise straight out of the old 1970’s “self-esteem” EST movement: force yourself to talk to x number of strange women a day. You’re not trying to pick them up, you don’t care how old they are or what they look like. They don’t have to be deep convos, they can be an innocuous joke or mild compliment, something that provides a smile. Then it’s “have a nice day” and walk away. The more you do it the easier it gets. IF they walk away first, fine. No probs. Do it again.

    You can find the way out, but you have to get out to do it. Staying hidden away, living out Paul Simon’s “I Am A Rock” literally won’t do it.

    There are no drugs that cure the itch. Hormones will fuck you up. You might find some solace from M3’s famous essay “12 Years an Incel”, which goes through all the five stages of grief to resolution. Google the title and it will pop up.

  61. @ Rollo
    From “Saving the Best”: “Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place”. Ouch Ouch Ouch. I had read this a number of times before, but reading it again after a few months still sends shivers down the spine. Good work Sir, need to be reminded of this (more like a slap on the face) on a regular basis. That one line alone is enough for me never to look at a women as someone I need to surrender to.
    NO SURRENDER !!!!

  62. @Sentient:

    Oh, sure. Trigger me why don’t you? One of those 200 pounders damn near took me out.

  63. Malvolio:

    Close, in the name of jesting! Lie thou there,
    for here comes the trout that must be caught with tickling.*

    –Twelfth Night

    *Trout tickling is the art of rubbing the underbelly of a trout using fingers. If done properly, the trout will go into a trance-like state after a minute or so

  64. @Eddie Willers

    “It’s been a problem for my entire life. I even believe in a philosophy heavily based on rational self-interest, self-esteem, etc. I’ve always sucked at implementing it (poor frame).”

    I’ll say. Look, I am not ‘Alpha’ yet … just as I am not a captain of industry or a motor of the world … yet. The first step is to not adopt the name of a Milquetoast character from the author you admire. Your internal dialogue sets the tone for your life, and you are self deprecating all over the place!

  65. @Glenngarry

    Yes, I do. A girl from college went as far as to invite me to lunch with her parents upon graduation without even having had a single proper date before. She was marginalized in class and being a kind person I have always made a point to engage with those deemed “unpopular”. I did not fancy her sexually, so I stopped it at that (my dad called me a fool for it lol). I can’t really fault women’s reaction to “nice guys” because it was my own.

    Truth is, I have never been uncomfortable around women. I suspect my problem is being very talkative, it kills that mystery they seem to love so much. Looking back, I can see times in which I revealed too much about myself.

    Also, I have always been bookish and I guess that I use a high brow vocabulary, even subsconsciously. In my view, chicks enjoy a certain intellectual prowess because they are often very insecure when it comes to politics, history… but there is a thin red line between interesting to intimidating conversation. I recall that once in highschool, the teacher asked a very tough question and I answered almost effortlessly. A girl ahead of me turned around and a bewildered look said “how the hell can you possibly know that?” It felt great, I was a nerd, but proud of that reputation as a knowledgeable person. The problem is that women like to put us in drawers, and usually “smart/well-read” is a at odds with “would bang”.

    I know you might probably have a hard time believing this but I am not awkward at all. My problem probably was having been too passive in my teens and early 20s, hoping things would “just happen” somehow.

    @Sentient

    I was talking about my college days regarding the positive and “sex-indifferent” mentality. Right now I work from home so not so many chances at displaying that.

    Cold-approaching women is not my forte. I don’t panic and I have tried it but usually the conversation just dies, I run out of things to say.

    Don’t know. I think my best shot might be to try and improve my looks (a tad overweight right now) and see how things go. The worst has passed in the sense that peak SMV aside, the feeling of having sex when you are a teenager must be priceless. I understand now what it means to have a shitty childhood.

  66. @Oscar C – I posted a detailed post for you in the last thread. About online dating and what to do on a date.

    Try following that for a few online dates and see how it works out.

  67. @Culum

    Thanks a lot, but where did you post it exactly? I went back to “Killing your idols” (the Rollo post that preceded this one) and did not see anything there.

  68. Also, I have always been bookish and I guess that I use a high brow vocabulary, even subsconsciously. In my view, chicks enjoy a certain intellectual prowess because they are often very insecure when it comes to politics, history… but there is a thin red line between interesting to intimidating conversation. I recall that once in highschool, the teacher asked a very tough question and I answered almost effortlessly. A girl ahead of me turned around and a bewildered look said “how the hell can you possibly know that?” It felt great, I was a nerd, but proud of that reputation as a knowledgeable person. The problem is that women like to put us in drawers, and usually “smart/well-read” is a at odds with “would bang”.

    Diversification is your friend.

    Well read is wonderful. Well rounded is even better.

    Last thread I pondered why a guy couldn’t be a Rhodes scholar and still be a bad ass, and kfg answered with this guy –

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kristofferson

    Funny thing about high levels of intelligence is, you still have to do some shit to overcome it. Too much of it can be a handicap, if that’s all you’ve managed to develop.

  69. How do you know your introspection is correct? Where is your feedback from your beliefs about yourself? How about trying something new and see what happens. You write with certainty about self-knowledge and women’s tendencies but it’s only academic rote unsupported by actual field experience. It’s like the college professor teaching business courses but he’s never actually run a business…. there’s limit to what you can learn in the classroom and much of the practical details are learned by doing, not studying.

    You’ve been heard and given precise, prescriptive advice. Over-thinking, incessantly re-hashing details, giving excuses, etc., are only buffers to prevent action. Much of my story is similar to yours so I’m familiar with your obstacles, internal and external.

    At this point, to “level up” requires action and doing…. welcome to hard mode.

  70. I have met several girls I got to know through dating apps. I would set the dates around 12:00 AM so that we would have coffee and after an hour or so I would invite them to have lunch. If they accepted, considering it was a $10 menu, that meant they must be interested, right?

    So yeah, all accepted. We have what looks like a good conversation, we finish the meal (only one insisted in going Dutch) and we part ways. 2 or 3 hours later I get a text saying how much fun they had. All of them texted, it really surprised me. But soon thereafter, they ghosted me haha.

    I will keep trying, that’s for sure. Your analogy with the MBA teacher is perfect, dr. zipper 🙂

  71. @Blaximus

    I agree. The guy you link to looks certainly interesting.

    However I don’t think that I have a super high IQ (the entire school was tested once and we were told nobody was extraordinary): steady reading habits from childhood on can boost your academic performance enormously.

    IMO the main advantage of intellectual interests is that they can be used as a buffer against ONEitis and the fear of loneliness.

  72. Oscar -this statement is a good indicator of your state of mind: “IMO the main advantage of intellectual interests is that they can be used as a buffer against ONEitis and the fear of loneliness.”

    Your interests’ main advantage is to make yourself the man you want to be without regard to anything about sexual dynamics. How does this sound to you: “I’m going to get really good at xx because it’ll keep me from getting lonely when my ONEitis dumps me.” I hope it sounds as stupid to you as it does me.

    If you preemptively hold anything you do to the standard of how will it help you in your dealings with women, then your MPO is not about what you want, it’s about how it relates to the external world, i.e., your MPO is external to yourself. Totally opposite to Rollo’s (and others here) admonishments.

    Reading and studying — at least in this context — are not enough for an *understanding* of the principles discussed here. Only action can fill in the blanks.

  73. @Oscar

    Download a pick up program. Any. The “problems” you describe are obviously common.

    “Running out of things to say”

    “[…]We have what looks like a good conversation[…]But soon thereafter, they ghosted me haha”

    What is a good conversation? I used to have good conversations with the results you describe, but if you learn game you might realize it wasn’t a good conversation. Was there a man-to-woman vibe? Did you sexualize the conversation? Did you escalate in any way?

    I recommend what I’ve used: “nAtural” by rsdmax(torrent it for free). Watch it and DO THE MISSIONS. This is a kind of tl;dr for that:

  74. After reading this it occurred to me just what happens to a person upon surrender in war, whether conventional or intersexual.

    They typically disarm you, isolate you from the others, remove any belongings of danger or value, take you prisoner and confine you. They may even beat you, or have you killed sooner or later, at the discretion of the unknown.

    The difference between war conventional and war intersexual seems…not so great anymore.

    I guess it should not surprise us then to witness so many male prisoners (dead men) walking in the very light of day?

    What are the white flags of the modern day “surrendered” man?

    – Placing her priorities above his own and all others.
    – Getting fat and complacent
    – Distancing himself from family
    – Disconnecting from his friends
    – Failing to set boundaries and say “no”.
    – Selling off boyhood hobbies and interests – the motorcycle, the truck, the electric guitar and amp, the drum set, the college football helmet and jersey that he wore
    – Accepted sexlessness
    – Assuming the role of her adult child

    Once you surrender to her, I don’t think you are ever quite the same man again.
    You could reassert your freedom and independence. You got scars. But you also got wise. And wisdom is not so easily undone.

  75. @Eddie
    I have taken various forms of action for over two years. They don’t stick, integrate, or become lifelong habits

    It’s been 3 years for me and I’m just just starting to hold Frame consistently. These things take time

  76. ” Placing her priorities above his own and all others.
    – Getting fat and complacent
    – Distancing himself from family
    – Disconnecting from his friends
    – Failing to set boundaries and say “no”.
    – Selling off boyhood hobbies and interests – the motorcycle, the truck, the electric guitar and amp, the drum set, the college football helmet and jersey that he wore
    – Accepted sexlessness
    – Assuming the role of her adult child ”

    Ohhhh sweet Jesus this sounds horrible.

  77. @Oscar

    There is a dude @alpharivelino(twitter) who blogs about his daygame among others. I think he is in Spain. You could read his stuff(maybe meet him?). It will make it easier to see gaming in your country as something natural. I also live in a Med country; game works here, too. The only difference with the States is hypergamy being a little less open.

    good luck!

  78. @dr. zipper Trust me, I get what you are saying.

    I used to act without thinking about the female reaction at all. Furthermore, I have always had the right mindset:

    I have never believed in “love”. At age 15 I already knew I did not want to have children. I come from an intact family and I have always seen marriage as sheer boredom. I plainly told my parents more than once that they did not love themselves, that they were mainly engaging in a social convention (I know now that they do really have a great relationship, btw). I have never wanted a girlfriend for much more than sex, and certainly not for lifelong companionship.

    But when years pass by and nothing happens it becomes increasingly difficult not to start questioning yourself. Particularly so when you are a very rational person like myself who likes to deconstruct everything.

    It is not the same to have a couple of flings as a teenager and get burned, than not having anything at all.

    “make yourself the man you want to be without regard to anything about sexual dynamics”

    Sorry but this is not true. Or better yet, this only works when “the man you want to be” does overlap with female desire. Rollo was hell-bent on rock music from what I have read. He might not have gone that road to get girls, but girls do love that nonetheless, so it works.

    I like history and politics, and girls are not so much into it. Hence, failure.

    I am having a bit of an existencial crisis right now, sleepless nights included, and I think it is necessary even if temporarily painful. Basically it is about coming to terms with the fact that my priorities in life are not mainstream, and pursuing them implies paying the price of relative isolation. It is something I could vaguely feel years ago, but at the time having it all seemed still possible some day.

  79. “Or better yet, this only works when ‘the man you want to be’ does overlap with female desire.” Another assertion unsupported by field work nor by anyone else here. Blaming external forces for a lack of success with “oh woe is me, the world doesn’t understand and appreciate me, left to a life of genius solitude”

    same shit I did and many others…. it’s just squirming for an easy out because accepting your own responsibility for your own life’s success is difficult unless you’re at rock bottom; you’ll know when you’re there because you will be willing to chew off a limb to make things better

    many here have traveled the same path as you, please listen to some of the men here, they can help; I honestly wish you the best on a difficult journey

    bit that’s fine, you know what’s best for you, Oscar, I’ll leave you alone so you can achieve your goal of isolation lol

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