Commenter Divided Line came on with such a strong take on Our Sisters’ Keeper I had to riff on it:
Hypergamy is a given and it’s not going anywhere. But even if women’s sexuality is biologically rooted, their rationalizations for it aren’t possible without a compliant culture. So long as women are the damsels, the victims who are put upon by the cruel and all powerful patriarchy, so long as men are perceived to be powerful and free in a way that they clearly are not nor have ever been, open hypergamy is possible. After all, any guy who points it out or complains about it is branded an embittered loser, a misogynist, a creep, and so on, but I wonder to what degree this will change as red pill awareness spreads and penetrates the mainstream. I mean, how long do we think that men will go on smiling and nodding when it’s increasingly the case that more and more of us can see what bullshit all of this is?
What it makes me think of is Alana Massey’s Dickonomics article.
If you haven’t already read it, she goes on and on about how male attention is abundant and cheap, proving that women are well aware of what men who bother with online dating realized from the start. She recognizes the extreme degree of power this gives her before hamstering it away with this:
“Some will read my gleeful rejections on the many faces I encounter on Tinder as evidence of a disturbing uptick in malevolent, anti-male sentiments among single straight women. It is not. It is evidence of us arriving nearer to gender equilibrium where men can no longer happily judge the clear and abundant photos and carefully crafted profiles of women but become incensed when they take the opportunity to do the same.”
How many times have you seen this? All venality, cruelty, selfishness, indifference, etc is justified, of course, because men have it so good, women have it so bad, blah blah etc. So she can write something like this and the sisterhood will nod their heads and no doubt be able to ignore doubt or second thoughts in regards to their atrocious, destructive, and cruel treatment of the opposite sex. Women, like people who rationalize generally, tend to think in bogus bumper sticker one liners because they provide excuses not to think for themselves. And men, after all, just saunter about in the patriarchal torture dungeon of a society free and powerful, and pluck women from the trees before discarding them like jizz towels, so naturally, why should she consider their complexity as human beings or ever recognize what a rotten, horrible human being she is? They’re free to retaliate against men for women’s imaginary oppression.
But how long will they be able to keep employing these rationalizations and getting away with it if the public dialog changes? And it has already begun to change. I’ve watched it happen over the last year. You see more and more disclaimers in articles which appeal to the you-go-girl crowd. It really does seem as if there is a growing awareness that they are full of shit, or at the very least, that maybe there are moral complexities and obligations that come with female social power, to the degree that they are even willing to recognize that power.
Hypergamy isn’t going anywhere, but since men increasingly are comparing notes now and voicing their criticism of women’s bullshit (at least online), maybe it really isn’t the case that women are going to be able to continue this bullshit with public sanction. Is this wishful thinking?
I’ve made the case in several other blog comment and forum threads, but it’s getting almost too easy to point out women’s overt embrace of Open Hypergamy. There was a time – only 4 short years ago – that I would be run up the flagpole for publishing my observations on the ins and outs of women’s sexual strategy. Women in the blogosphere hated the fact that I was exposing their Game. They didn’t like the idea that I was informing men about the plan women had for them or the part they played, and by informing them it represented a fundamental threat to the long term success (and essentially their long term security) of that plan.
If you’re feeling nostalgic you can skim through the comments of posts like Wait For It? or The Threat:
Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.
[…]
Race to Awareness
Because of women’s relatively short window of peak sexual viability it is imperative that men be as unaware of their slower, but progressively increasing SMV for as long as possible in order for them to achieve the prime directive of female hypergamy; realize the best genetic options and the best provisioning options she has the capacity to attract in that peak window. If Men become aware of their SMV before a woman can consolidate on her options with monogamous commitment her sexual strategy is defeated.
The mistake (and the binary retort) is to think this need for contrivances was concocted in whole as some grand sisterhood conspiracy. This just proves an ignorance of social constructs. For a social contrivance to be such, it necessitates being repeated by society WITHOUT a formal conception – meaning we learn the contrivance from seeing it, internalizing it and repeating it ourselves without forethought. The best social contrivances are inconspicuous and rarely questioned because they’ve been learned without having been formally taught. This is why I think encouraging men NOT to bother trying to understand women is in itself a social convention. Don’t look at that man behind the curtain, just accept it for what it is, enjoy the show, you’re better off that way, the Mighty Oz has spoken.
This is the threat that Game represents to the feminine imperative. Widely shared, objective assessments of Men’s SMV and how it develops is the antithesis of the female sexual strategy. Women’s greatest fear is that they could become the ‘selected’ instead of the ‘selectors’.
Bear in mind I wrote this years before I published Preventive Medicine. This was also only a few years before I formally identified women’s embrace of openly, proudly, flaunting their sexual strategy. I can remember being soundly rebuked by women denying they adhered to anything so callous as an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks schedule with regard to men.
There was a certain nervous undertone that accompanied their shaming that revealed how protective they were of keeping the plan as ambiguous and secretive as possible from men in general. For every acknowledgement of the biological influences of Ovulatory Shift behaviors by these women there was always an obligatory, “yes, but, people are people, we’re above all that, it’s what’s on the inside that counts, NAWALT” intended to offset the ugliness of it.
Now, the same women who adamantly denied what their functionally opportunistic concept of love represents; the same women who rejected the idea of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks sexual strategy openly and triumphantly boast about it. It’s become a source not only of agency, but a proud admission of perceived power on the part of women.
At some point the social impetus behind Open Hypergamy became so blatantly obvious they could no longer deny the truth of it. The Genie was out and it was more advantageous to not only to welcome it, but to brandish and profit from forcing men to accept it. Thus we have Open Hypergamy both subtly and triumphantly waved in our mainstream advertising, our pop-culture, our social media, our music and even the movies we take our kids to enjoy.
To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.
– George Orwell
I expect most of the worst aspects of Open Hypergamy (Overt Hypergamy if you prefer) are fairly obvious to my readers. Even the now the subtle influence in the media and advertising becomes not-so-subtle for men accustomed to seeing things with a Red Pill Lens. We can only shake our heads and hope that so blatant a confession of relishing power in Hypergamy on the part of unaware men will come to light for them.
Divided Line raises a very poignant observation – what’s next? What’s the natural progression?
Hypergamy isn’t going anywhere, but since men increasingly are comparing notes now and voicing their criticism of women’s bullshit (at least online), maybe it really isn’t the case that women are going to be able to continue this bullshit with public sanction. Is this wishful thinking?
I think there is a caveat we have to address here first. With Red Pill awareness it gets very easy to slide down the slippery slope and believe that ‘all women’ will have some equal capacity to enforce the worst of Open Hypergamy on men in general. Yes, in a westernizing context, women have an almost unilaterally state-backed influence on enforcing men’s de facto participation in Hypergamy by order of degree. However, it’s important to remember that men’s willing participation or coercion in it is still (as yet) limited by women’s capacity to attract and involve them.
Men want (and yes, need) sex and will find behavioral and psychological adaptations and workarounds to get it. That may be MGTOW, prostitution, porn or an as yet developed alternative of virtual sex. It may be Red Pill awareness and applied Game, it may be a self-aligning push to pander to the most extreme elements of the Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks ends of Hypergamy, or it may be upping fame or a false social proof (via personality politicking on social media) that makes for men’s future adaptations.
Peak Hypergamy
I’m not a prognosticator about such things, but I can make logical estimates based on observations. One thing is for certain, and I discussed this with Niko in our talk, intersexual politicking and the condition of women will reach a ‘Peak Hypergamy’ state in the not too distant future. There will indeed come a point when even Blue Pill men will be unable to ignore so gross a power imbalance between the sexes.
There’s been some debate as to whether there’s some socially conscious ‘marriage strike’ in the manosphere for some time, and I think marriage statistics being at an all time low bear much of this out. I don’t think this is the result of some nascent MGTOW awakening, but rather a deductive, peripheral, general awareness men have of Open Hypergamy in our current social order at the moment.
Just as a last aside here, let me state that I am aware of the more militant, absolutists of MGTOW belaboring the idea that ‘the juice aint worth the squeeze’ and the dangers of even approaching a woman risk his being accused of sexual harassment, much less having recreational sex with her leaving a man open to post-sex regret-rape allegation. I get that. It’s part of the ascension toward a ‘Peak Hypergamy’ social state. My question is whether these men would find it worth their while to engage with women if their fears were removed in a post Peak State social order? Some may even live long enough to have to figure that out for themselves.
I think Divided Line is correct – there will come a state when Open Hypergamy’s power consolidation becomes too obvious and the social mechanics the Feminine Imperative has used to ensure that consolidation will be too much for women to maintain as a collective. Then what? What will women rationalize for themselves when they realize their monster has become too much?
I’ll reiterate it again; socially, it didn’t take long for women to transition from a secretive Hypergamy to an open display of it. The same women who called AF/BB the imaginings of misogynous men only 4 years ago are now proudly claiming it as truth (they knew all along) and a means to a power they’ve always had and should openly use.
The social, political and personal stress point of Peak Hypergamy is coming. It may take a bit longer, but there will come a point where even women will be forced to recognize the consequences of legislating their hubris.
@23
“Only guys I’ve ever met who even have a sniff of knowledge of hypergamy, have banged 30+ chicks. And they hate admitting to knowing about women’s true ways and DO NOT like talking about it.”
Huge reason why I am here. I’ve noticed that to on trying to bring up these truths in public. I’ve stopped and just observed for awhile.
@23
Great comment.
The disturbing part is that men must still know exactly what to do in a relationship with a woman ( “Just Get It”), but most women today have pretty much lost touch with what they have to do in a relationship with a man in return (“It Doesn’t Matter If She Gets It”). And that’s ok, because they have the pussy.
FI Uber Alles.
Jeremy – ” To many women, all violence is evil or is born from negative thoughts and that’s that.”
Because:
1. Solipsism
2. Projection
3. And a tool generally of little use to the individual unarmed woman who if she resorts to violence has little chance of defeating a man who doesn’t pull punches. Thus a tool only used in conjunction with emotional manipulation and shaming rather like a parsley garnish to prove a meal is serious.
Violence removes women from the equation of controlling Hypergamy.
Whether it’s men fighting (and often killing) other men for control, it’s men physically controlling the circumstance of women, or if it’s even men’s perceived power (threat) to enforce their control, what women on a feral level understand is that violence is always to be feared and mitigated in men.
Thus, this fear of men’s anger becomes a part of raising sons in a gynocentric social order. Violence removes unilateral control of Hypergamy on the part of women. Solution: condition out, socially stigmatize and pacify men’s testosterone-influenced propensity towards violence in every progressive generation.
Unfortunately, it’s exactly this tendency towards physical dominance that makes for the most exciting and arousing mates for women.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7918699/Women-view-modesty-as-sign-of-weakness.html
” . . . it’s exactly this tendency towards physical dominance that makes for the most exciting and arousing mates for women.”
The man who they, and only they, control in the game of “Let’s you and him fight,” even if it costs them the occasional split lip and black eye. While men get a feeling of power from actually having power, women get it from manipulating the powerful to act in their behalf. Taking a punch or two themselves only adds to this sense, as it implies the man they control is among the most powerful, therefore they have accentuated power for being able to keep him at least vaguely in check.
@Softek – hang in there bruv….It’s only forward from here. You will be the man you want to be….
@Kid Jupiter
You make a great point and I’ve seen it sometimes too – women not knowing how to be a women in return to a strong, indifferent man.
But, all in all, I’ve seen some real flashes of a “50s woman” (cleaning, cooking, laundry) towards me and other male friends of mine WHEN the frame is rock solid and attraction high.
I’ve never forgotten how happy my ex was on our first date, to just get me a beer from the bar. After saying “I need a beer”, you should’ve seen her eyes light up and saying with glee “did you want to get it for you?!”
Even pointing to the beer as the barkeep was pouring it with a smile on her face, like she was a dog that had just done a trick and wanted a treat (my attention) for being a good girl. Had her panties pulled to the side, banging her in my car an hour later.
I went into such detail because this was the first time in my life, I saw so many RP truth and how a strong a woman’s attraction can be if you show your indifference combined with a strong frame.
To further my point this CH post…
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/the-danger-of-idleness-to-women/
is a great example, IMO, that women are happy to serve a strong man and will do the cooking, cleaning, etc because they hate idleness SO MUCH and are nesting creatures, that cooking and cleaning fills their time and they feel rewarded by it because they’re serving an Alpha.
You say women have lost touch with what to do in return for a strong man? Easy – you TELL them if the two of you are going living together, she’ll be doing X, Y and Z or we’re never going to further this LTR, by living together.
Am I misogynistic? Yes, but I don’t care.
It took me a long time to get to this point but it can happen for damn near everybody. @rugby11ljh, continue to observe and build yourself and let society swallow up the plug-ins because I’ll tell ya what man, “girl who gets tingles from getting you a beer” exist.
Reblogged this on MGTOW 2.0.
The Rabid Wolverine = 23. No clue that name came up like that.
The porn hub twitter !.
“Women are 113% more likely to view “hardcore” porn than men.”
Women needs to be romanced MYASS.
And given that only 24% of Pornhub’s audience is female, we’re clearly talking about a smaller sample size here.!!
I guarantee you the 76% would love to watch it too .
they could become the ‘selected’ instead of the ‘selectors’.
To a certain extent they already are – of course, since I’m in a band, they select me by coming back stage after a performance, but then it is my choice as to which one or ones I’ll be enjoying tonight. They don’t have to play my game, and that is fine – I won’t waste my time on them, but every night after a performance there are plenty that decide to come back to explore what may come. I don’t care if they are single, or married, or have a boyfriend – all I care is they want to f**k and they have already told me that by coming back to our area. That is when we choose – sometimes I’ll start with one and get another later. One of the great things is they never change – and I pick the ones that are attractive to me. If they resist, I’ll throw her back and get another – cheap and easy.
Women once held the cards – now they don’t. They are cheaper than ever before – so their hypergamy ends when they come back stage – then it’s our turn. Personally, I like pushing them to do things they won’t let their bf’s or husbands, or others do, and I enjoy it because I can. They can leave – but they don’t since they know at best they get a couple of hours of my time and a load or two of my cum, then it’s back to their boring lives and their men that take their crap. I’m done with them for the moment – if they come back next week, maybe they will appeal to me again, but I probably wouldn’t recognize them. I’ve had that happen – usually after one does something that other women don’t – but they are interchangeable.
Now during the week, I know that most of them wouldn’t give me a second look, and that’s fine as I have things to do, but they are there when I want to enjoy them and really isn’t that all that matters?
@Just Saying
Wow, you the man! You must be a real rock star! What was your tour gross last year? Must of been HUGE! Your story sounds like one from the annals of the mighty Van Halen in their heyday. Do you make the promoters take out all the brown M&Ms from the bowl backstage, too?
@Kid Jupiter:
Putting lifts in your shoes would make you look taller without having to knock another man down or challenge him to knock the chip off your shoulder.
@kfg
Wasn’t digging the bragging. Hate braggarts. Usually a compensation mechanism. Or a lie. Or both.
If the perspective of men who get laid like tile annoys you, why are you here?
“Wife seems to like it, most of the time. Right now she’s sick…keeping my fingers crossed, we pulled the goalie about a month ago.”
SQUEE! How exciting.
Good luck ADBG. 😀
@ kobayashi
Thanks. One thing that helps is realizing it’s nothing new. I just am more acutely aware than ever now of why I feel suicidal.
And yes, it all comes down to hypergamy, and my ability to accept and deal with it accordingly to get my needs met. The stark realization that depression, anxiety, my disrupted childhood/adolescence from mental illness doesn’t mean anything to anyone, and I’m really, truly alone in my struggle —
— no one can pick me up but me. So not only is the burden of completely emotionally providing for myself my sole responsibility (people take things like words of support for granted, for example, having friends that care about you, etc.)…
…I have to COMPLETELY OVERCOME all my handicaps to the point where I am BETTER than 80% of men at least.
Have to have my shit together better than the vast majority of men. I’m having a hard enough time just getting to be AVERAGE, but what I need to do in order to have any kind of sex life and get ANY of my sexual needs met AT ALL is be better than the vast majority of guys out there.
I don’t just have to pick myself up. I have to elevate myself to a level that is far beyond other guys around me just to have a shot at having a sex life.
I haven’t completely accepted it yet, but that’s because of the remnants of programming. Still haven’t pissed out all the remnants of the Blue Pill yet. My system’s still processing it.
And what doesn’t help is how truly alone I am in this struggle. Nobody in my life is even remotely close to grasping what I’m going through, and think that sex/women have absolutely nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. They all just think that’s ‘shallow’ or think that my issues go any deeper than sexual/intimate deprivation.
Yes, that deprivation is a result of me still being a Beta, and having all this fucked up programming in my head. But the end result is that I’m deprived.
YOU NEED SEX is something almost NO ONE will admit. Because it’s politically incorrect, and paints a very ugly and sad picture of the world when you realize there are guys like me that live the life of a suffering bastard because of it.
But for sex to be a need, that means there are consequences for deprivation. My current state of mental anguish/being suicidal/emotional dysregulation and the rest is the consequence.
To sum up:
I’ve got a lot on my plate. So much, actually, that only a real Alpha man would be able to not only endure it but come out on top.
This is a trial by fire. I’ve already walked through part of the way. I’m making progress. I’m going out yet again to a party tonight and am going to try again. I’m not letting myself sit inside here and mope and be depressed. Forcing myself to dress up nice and go out and give it another go.
I’ll grit my teeth until they’re ground down to a pulp and white knuckle it until my fists are bleeding before I’ll even think of stopping.
P.S. My friend ‘brags’ all the time about women he’s been with. His N count by his estimate is anywhere from 800-1200. He’s closing in on 70. Has a lot of history behind him.
I love those stories. I try to learn as much as I can from them as well. Guys like that are gold mines of knowledge. Guys that have tons of in-field experience and ‘just get’ how women work. I make as many mental notes as I can and am not beyond writing things down in a notebook either.
“Women once held the cards – now they don’t”
you’re saying we are beyond peak hypergamy?
@kfg
I don’t need advice on how to get laid. I’ve gotten laid plenty in my life. The reason I started commenting on this thread is because I notice the assholery bar is being set higher and higher for getting laid, and it doesn’t sit well with me, and I’m not comfortable taking it to that level.
There’s a problem with the story Just Saying relates. If his story is true, of course… I’m not doubting that guys in popular rock bands have the ability to get laid. But I’m not buying his story. A little too over the top. But, we can assume it’s true for the sake of discussion.
I also have a lot of experience playing in bands, a few of which were pretty popular in the NYC area. Been playing bass about 30 years. I’ve seen a lot. And I’ve gotten laid from playing in bands, too. Also turned away a lot of skanks. But I was always very careful whom I stuck my dick into and where I did the sticking (read on).
What if the bf/husband of one of these alleged Just Saying girls found out about what she was doing? What if he went psycho and decided to wait for Just Saying and His Alpha Band outside after the show at load-out with a lead pipe or a gun? Don’t laugh – something like this that happened to a friend of mine here in NYC in 2008 (not a band, but live entertainment-related). He’s dead. And the psycho bf killed himself. Murder/suicide. She eyewitnessed it. As far as I know, she’s still alive and has moved on (War Brides?) The story was in the NY Post. I can look it up online and post the link if you’d like to read the story yourself.
The nonchalant “who cares about the husband/bf” stuff isn’t very smart. Sure, if you’re playing by the rules of the jungle like Just Saying, then anything goes. “If she wants it, and he isn’t giving it to her right, then I’ll give it to her, no questions asked.” But the rules of the jungle also include the possible revenge of the loser coming back to bite you in the ass. Or killing you, like happened to my friend.
So you can say, short-sightedly, “The bf/husband can go fuck himself” – I’d think you’re a douche, but it’s the law of the jungle for junglefolk, right? And feral women?
But you can also say, “Maybe I should be a little more careful.” That would be the long view. Protect yourself. Karma’s a bitch.
“This is a trial by fire.”
You know your development tactic is mostly about getting so numb from failure you finally will stop caring? There are surely some shortcuts to outcome independence.
Men need sex but don’t get sex as long as they need it. You gotta hack this one somehow.
“Don’t laugh . . .”
Why would I laugh? I’m a folkie. That story and its variants makes up half the traditional repertoire. I believe the theme also features prominently in an epic poem.
None of which has anything to do with your initial, reflexive response. This one is significantly more reasoned and contains an actual point.
@kfg
Guess you’re not a fan of sarcasm. BTW, I also did stand up comedy in NYC for a few years semi-professionally. Tough crowd. BA-DUMP-BUMP.
@Rollo
Peak hypergamy
Was at my local fair today. Found the girlfriend of my last rugby teams with the dude by the horse section of the fair. Meet her in a blue pill state before I found your blog. She’s no longer with him but with this other guy. It’s strange yet it’s all weird because I’m calm about every part of it. She used to calm out and watch us play at a field down the street from where I am residing again.
It reminded did me of women loving you for what you are than who you are. I was also thinking about how I learned yesterday that when me and my dad where talking I told him about the frustration of living red pill truths but was being feed an having him enforce blue pill ones.
It was worth the time and effort because he’s unable to change or doesn’t want to. We talked about how he would try reading your books again but to him their to much to digest.
Still making a hell of a lot of progress than was thinking about @Forge the sky said awhile ago. About slipping back into a blue pill mindset or even routine. It’s a hell of day out here
grateful to be here.
“Thus, this fear of men’s anger becomes a part of raising sons in a gynocentric social order. Violence removes unilateral control of Hypergamy on the part of women. Solution: condition out, socially stigmatize and pacify men’s testosterone-influenced propensity towards violence in every progressive generation.”
Went over this yesterday with my farther as well. I told him about how it upset me that he keep trying to sanitize my inner self for my family as the “good son”
I also told him or will tell how eventually I wanna get in a wrestling ring and duke out all the internal violence. I saw my mom sanitize a lot of stuff but the violence is what put me over the edge.
@The Rabid wolverine
“Had her panties pulled to the side, banging her in my car an hour later.”
Nice
I will but man is it hard sometimes ever since I’ve been on this site my mental stamina has increase so much. My dad is able to learn more from me because I explain my version of events on a red pill basis. I’ve never been able to express the anger I felt from being beating in a beta like do As your mother says or feel the wrath of god. My sex drive is huge. Just need to learn how to kindle a conversation and escalate. It’s hard because I’ve been plugging in for 27 yrs and built myself around blue pill people doing red pill truths but saying blue pill fillers. So I am adapting and growing very slowly.
@Softek
” I just am more acutely aware than ever now of why I feel suicidal.”
Me to
“I haven’t completely accepted it yet, but that’s because of the remnants of programming. Still haven’t pissed out all the remnants of the Blue Pill yet. My system’s still processing it.”
Yeah I’m drinking more lemonade these days because of that.
“YOU NEED SEX is something almost NO ONE will admit. Because it’s politically incorrect, and paints a very ugly and sad picture of the world when you realize there are guys like me that live the life of a suffering bastard because of it.”
That’s the one part that gets me. It’s ok for women to fuck but guys keep your mouths shut and hold out on your desires for “gods” sake.
@Kid Jupiter
“The reason I started commenting on this thread is because I notice the assholery bar is being set higher and higher for getting laid, and it doesn’t sit well with me, and I’m not comfortable taking it to that level.”
You noticed it to?
When I do stand up it gets the most laughs.
@lh
“You know your development tactic is mostly about getting so numb from failure you finally will stop caring? There are surely some shortcuts to outcome independence.
Men need sex but don’t get sex as long as they need it. You gotta hack this one somehow.”
Nice insight
“Tough crowd. BA-DUMP-BUMP.”
‘Tis.
@Softek
I haven’t commented much on these threads, but I read almost every comment. I’ve followed you’re comments, as well.
I’m 34. I’ve been married and divorced. I spent eight years of my adult life with one woman, years of that were basically sexless. Truth is, I lost interest in her as much as she probably did in me. Before her (I was 24 when we first hooked up) I had my own run at the SMP with some success. N count around 40. Half that was before marriage. Don’t consider myself a natural, at all. I discovered the red pill after I got into my first attempt at an LTR after my divorce. I allowed this chick to move in with me after almost no time. This was a convenience thing, as she actually had permanent residence in another state, but stayed with family here very often. She moved in, nested very quickly, and it was actually quite pleasant. Anyway, it dissolved quickly after she went back to her main state for a six week visit. Even though her intention was to return permanently to live with me, my gut told me something was wrong. I discovered this site while she was away (first article I read was the one about shacking up) and consumed so much of the manosphere it kind of drove me crazy. My anger at the true nature of women consumed me. Kicked her out. Immediately banged two new ones that week. Have been spinning plates (including my ex) since. Funny thing is if I even go two nights without a woman in my bed I start to feel like a Beta loser.
The red pill has helped me immensely, but I also find myself being very negative when things don’t go exactly the way I want. Nagging questions about my alphatude, game, and even the smallest details of my social interactions. Through your posts I gather that you may be like me in that you are very analytical of your self. This is a blessing and a curse. Naval gazing is not a good hobby to have. It’s a lonely thing to stare into the abyss of self.
I only write these things to get to this, you can get some pussy. It’s actually not that hard. I get plenty compared to many people, apparently, and I’m no master gamer. I’m not especially attractive, not rich, and chumped out plenty of times. I’ve cried about a number of women, as they have me. But you gotta dive in. Don’t over think it. Put yourself in the right situations, develop even just a little social proof and engage. They give it up easier than you may think, even if you are not on top of your shit, bad ass alpha, party man cad. They fuck, and they will fuck you. Can’t wait to read your comment when it happens. There’s no magic, you do it and then you are done and you go to sleep or eat some food. They ultimately know what they are good for and they like to keep their tool in steady use. Go get laid mother fucker!
Liz, you left out a ‘t’. (For the rest of you, be advised that Liz likes tits.) Liz, a broad squeezed one of my pecks–last week in a club–and shook it. Bizarre! I was so surprised I didn’t do anything. Just gobsmacked.
@fartofseduction
“There’s no magic, you do it and then you are done and you go to sleep or eat some food. They ultimately know what they are good for and they like to keep their tool in steady use. Go get laid mother fucker!”
Hehehe
@Softek
I mediate on this because
I am a man.
Samurai Song
Robert Pinsky, 1940
When I had no roof I made
Audacity my roof. When I had
No supper my eyes dined.
When I had no eyes I listened.
When I had no ears I thought.
When I had no thought I waited.
When I had no father I made
Care my father. When I had
No mother I embraced order.
When I had no friend I made
Quiet my friend. When I had no
Enemy I opposed my body.
When I had no temple I made
My voice my temple. I have
No priest, my tongue is my choir.
When I have no means fortune
Is my means. When I have
Nothing, death will be my fortune.
Need is my tactic, detachment
Is my strategy. When I had
No lover I courted my sleep.
@Badpainter
This makes me an “asshole”, which I can’t deny because at that point I simply don’t care.
Had a chick repeatedly accuse me of being an asshole this weekend. Never had any replies other than “I can live with that” or “You’ll get over it.” Honestly at this point to me “you’re an asshole” is just the female way of saying “You are so in with me.”
When I respond in full chauvanist mode I am either disgusted by their defense of the stupid, or I lose all respect for them because they cave without a fight. Either way I can’t take them seriously.
So don’t. Laugh at them. Make fun of them. Turn it in to a game of trolling with you as the star. Even if it doesn’t get you laid, it’s more fun than arguing with their brick wall mentality or letting them steamroll you because feelz.
@thedeclineandfall
Simply by being more scarce it will inflate their SMV. What now is a 5-6 will become the new 7-8.
Thanks to the obesity crisis, this has already happened. Here in the south where 70% of women are fat, genuine HB5s are actually already rarer than HB6s are in a healthy population and it shows.
@Vitriol
Unfortunately, our society would rather take the men who aren’t getting it and throw them to the wolves than give them some kind of a reasonable outlet.
Well yeah. Haven’t you ever watched how women treat betas? That’s basically the fate they’re quite ready to wish on them. No surprise that a gynocentric culture operates that way, right?
There’s definitely a dark subconscious side of the female hind brain that loves “loser” types, and it’s something mainstream society doesn’t really acknowledge at all.
They’re only losers in the modern civilized context. In more primitive times when might made right, those types were the winners. That’s what the female hindbrain evolved around and still pines for.
@teddj4g
The only thing I have against the guys in the Ashley Madison thing is that they were too stupid to realize the site would inevitably get hacked. It was never a matter of “if”, always “when”. Only an idiot wouldn’t realize that.
@Rollo
what women on a feral level understand is that violence is always to be feared and mitigated in men.
My most graphic illustration of this came from my mother. She punished me with slaps to the face and violent strikes any time she felt frustration with me, but if I got in a fight at school she couldn’t “figure out where this anger and violence is coming from” and would of course hit me in frustration over my acts of violence. The point where it finally ended was when I became taller and stronger than her at 14. She attempted to slap my face as she always had, and I caught it in an iron grip with years of anger at her indiscriminate abuse in my eyes.
Looming over her, I stated coldly “You may ground me, you may take things away from me, you may insult me, you may engage in whatever punishment you see fit and I’ll comply. But if you ever hit me again for any I’ll break your fucking arm.” Violence in my household ended the day the only male in the house threatened to engage in it, though unfortunately the psychological and emotional abuse and manipulation did not. Male violence is the final word in violence, and women know it.
Women know female violence is almost always out of control and unreasonable, so they project that on to men. Male violence is almost always a tempered reaction to a perceived or active threat, and we’re usually hesitant to throw the first punch because we know being hit back sucks. More women need to learn that lesson.
after the peak:
https://i.imgur.com/LSZ0daK.png
For the record: Playing in a band will definitely get you laid. I’ve played in bands and gone out on tour with famous friends in bands where everybody, including roadies, got laid nightly.
A nice car will get you laid. In high school I had 3 cars. Not new, expensive cars, but nice rides. A 70 nova powered by a nasty 454. A relative died and left me his cars because he knew I understood what they were – a 1969 Chevelle powered by a 396 ( all factory ), red with black rally stripes, and a 1970 Chevelle convertible, also powered by a 396, red with white interior…fucking gorgeous..and white rally stripes. Girls. Got. Wet. Over. Those. Cars. Full. Stop.
Playing Sports will ( mostly ) get you laid. Played football, got laid. Ran track… not many track groupies out there, but fucked half the female track squad. We all did.
Not placing pussy on any type of pedestal, will get you laid. After my divorce at age 38, I decided to get some plates to spin ( didn’t have a clue that it was called spinning plates. Just wanted some chicks to bang reliably ). Got 2 30-something chicks who were down with the late night booty calls. They fucked hard then left. Got 1 Brazilian stripper from the club I bounced at. Nice petite blonde haired blue eyed thing, early 20’s. Liked to talk, joke, go to the occasional movie, cook dinner, have drinks, and then ride me all night long. She just wanted the ” boyfriend experience ” outside of the strip club and I didn’t judge her for what she did to get paid. My point is that I never put any of these chicks on a pussy pedestal. I’m convinced that this was one of the reasons I got them in the first place. Between all these chicks, if you analyze it, there was only a slight difference in the actual pussy. The difference was in what they could do in bed, as far as sex was concerned.
At that time I had an 18 year old, gorgeous girl I was laying pipe to. But she was absolutely horrible in bed. Awful. And that mattered to me. She thought blowjobs were disgusting – but she’d do it for me if I wanted. You can imagine how that went over. Doggystyle was too painful..but she’d do it for me if I wanted ( she screamed like I was setting her on fire. Not sexy ). Hard banging hurt, certain angles weren’t comfortable..etc. etc. blah, blah, blah.
I started giving her the stiff arm. My friends, to a man, told me I had lost my fucking mind. They went on and on and on about how beautiful and perfect she was. When I told them that they could have her, if they could get her, most of them were insulted that I would treat such a wonderful, exceptional girl in that manner.
After a couple of days of them whining I started to get sick to my stomach. They placed her on a pedestal higher than K2. Grown assed men gnashing their teeth over this sexual catastrophe.
*disclaimer* I have nice mental pictures of her in my head, pre-fucking. That’s how I’d like to remember her.
The best plate by far, If I had to put a number on her, was maybe an HB6. She was thinner than I usually like, and her hair was shorter than I like, but by gawd she was an absolute monster in the sack. Pure desire. Get that part fellas? DESIRE.
Having a vagina doesn’t necessarily denote desire. Being beautiful doesn’t foreshadow much either.
Do not get hung up on the HB9 or 10 that won’t fuck you ( right now..). It’s been said time and time again, PUSSY is just PUSSY. It’s never worth anguish or pain. Quality pussy is the pussy you get, that you like. You don’t know quality pussy until you are balls deep in it. Then act and fuck accordingly.
A commenter her said that many women are down to fuck ( paraphrasing ) and in my experience, that is 1000% correct. If you meet and talk to 10 chicks on a given day, 6 or 7 of them are fuckable. 4 of them are almost sure things. You have to learn the signs and how to capitalize on them. Game?
Sure, a bunch of them will be in full on bitch-mode. Keep. It. Moving. The clock ticks and no time is to be wasted on some gaping asshole broad. Hint: in 20 years she will most likely be old, fat, ugly and miserable. You’re dodging a .50 cal. bullet. Say thank you and move along.
But by all means, PLEASE, do not agonize over women. They don’t appreciate it and it’s not good for you. Yes, men need sex. Undeniable. So go fuck. HB5’s anyone? I saw a shitload of them on my way to work this week. Like fucking locusts. Want intimacy? That’s a different, more complex issue. Know how to separate the two. Feed your urges but protect your mind.
Sun Wukong – “Honestly at this point to me ‘you’re an asshole’ is just the female way of saying ‘You are so in with me.'”
I find a bit confusing that being an asshole gets rewarded, and the bigger the asshole I am, the more obsequious the behavior in response. Thanks to Rollo et. al I now understand the why of that, but continue to be surprised when I see it action.
Oh, and in addition to your responses I also like “don’t judge me”, “yeah? So?”, and “what are you going to do about it.”
Not placing pussy on any type of pedestal, will get you laid.
Softek,
You are pedestalizing getting laid. It’s fun, yes, but it isn’t all that. Not enough to obsess about it too much.
You need to not give a shit so much about getting laid. You need to develop yourself for YOU. The pussy will follow.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/19/letters-from-the-pedestal/
Okay, hold the phone.
I’ve realized that most guys take for granted basic things like getting a girl’s number or getting her to go out with you somewhere.
What do you do? Just ask her outright for her number? Ask her if she’d like to go out sometime?
I just don’t understand how to do it. Get from Point A to Point B. As in, what do you do to get a girl isolated? Do you just ask for her number? Do you ask her if she wants to go out sometime? What do you do? I’m completely lost over here. Way out in the corn fields.
As for pedestalizing pussy: if anyone on here has gone 10+ years without ANY TOUCH AT ALL from ANYONE, let alone any pussy/sex, then tell me I’m putting it on a pedestal. I have experienced a literally inhuman level of deprivation, and I’m not desperate to find ‘love’ or the fulfillment of any blue pill fantasy — it’s just like I’m socially retarded and I don’t understand the basic process of it all.
But all of that is whatever. Fuck it. My focus is shifting to: What do I do?
I’ve never been on a date in my life or set one up. Never gotten a phone number. Asked a girl out one time and got rejected. The few hookups I had didn’t happen very linearly. One was a girl I’d been talking to online for a while in a non-sexual way, and I didn’t expect her to come onto me.
The other was a girl I met at the mental hospital (great place to meet women…) years before. I basically asked her outright if she wanted to hook up because I sensed she was into me. We did hook up, kind of bombed because my fucking dad KNOCKED ON THE DOOR yelling my name.
ARE YOU IN THERE? ARE YOU IN THERE? I literally just tore the wrapper open for the condom and was going to fuck her. This is the reason I’m still a virgin. Knocked on the door REPEATEDLY and wouldn’t go away when I told him I was busy.
What did he have to tell me that was so important?
“I’m going to buy lightbulbs at the hardware store.”
Then he leaves. And that was it for that girl who I thought was going to be a fuck buddy. She said she came twice from me fingering her but I didn’t get to bang her and she was horrified when my dad showed up. Holy shit.
She said she would be up for trying again but it never happened, and I observed her behavior — went from responding to texts immediately, whenever I sent them, pre-hook up — and post hook-up, started ignoring my messages and eventually stopped getting back to me at all. Way to go.
Third one was on New Year’s. Blowjob after me having a panic attack for about 2 hours and trying to explain to her why I wasn’t comfortable making out with her on the couch in front of everyone. She was crying. And yelling at me. She thought I was judging her for being fat and that’s why I didn’t want to make out with her. I told her I have an anxiety disorder and I couldn’t feel my hands or my feet or anything really and I’d be a lot more comfortable in a private room. She goes “You don’t understand how hard it is to be a woman and deal with this shit.”
Then she told me to grow a pair. It was a god damn nightmare. It ended with a blowjob at least so it wasn’t a total bomb. But holy shit.
And that’s it.
I literally can’t even conceive of someone being upset about not getting laid at least a few times a week or more.
On the plus side, if I can recover from this shit, anyone can. This is a fucking trainwreck and a half.
Anyway, I hit on a waitress tonight. I could see myself hooking up with her. But I didn’t know what to do. Flirted and made some jokes. But…then what? What do you say? What the hell do you do?
Do you just ask for her number? Or ask her if she wants to go out sometime? What the fuck do you do?
My friend who gets laid says “think of it like going fishing,” and all this other stuff.
But I am missing like, basic elements of interaction that 99% of people take for granted.
What do you do? Set up a date? Ask for her number? Ask her if she wants to go out sometime? What is the process for actually getting a girl to meet up with you or do something?
I don’t get it. A big part of that too is I have no idea what I’d do. I spend all my time alone. I’m going to have to learn what ‘normal people’ do and emulate it.
Do people go out and get coffee? Do they go to restaurants? What do they do for fun? I don’t know. I’ve spent my life living under a rock and dealing with mental hospitals and isolation.
Where do you go? Where can you set up a date?
Holy fuck……
…but anyway, my focus now is on improving. I’ve worked on some fucking NIGHTMARE guitars that everyone else had given up on. It would’ve been easier to go to the cemetery and get a body to walk than it was to fix some of these instruments.
But I did it.
So I know just about anything can be fixed if you have the right skills and knowledge. I just have a fuckton of things to learn and near complete social retardation to make up for.
Hypergamy will never go away, much like my desire to bang teenage hotties won’t go away. That doesn’t mean it’s manifestations won’t change. Due the fluidity of what alpha can be depending on the social context one is in, hypergamy can be maneuvered into a way women can find different mates than now. Given this and that women have a sisterhood mentality being largely oblivious to what men feel when said feelings contradict what they feel, the onus is on men to do something about it.
I find it amusing my mother has these sisterhood instincts despite being a loving wife and mother who regarded her largely successful career as just a job to feed her children. Even more amusing that she’s largely rational due to being a scientist, but when it comes to things like abortion or other things that increase the power of women over their own sexuality, she’s less rational. At least she’s not a champion of false rape accusers, like western women.
It’s silly, but my mother being an exceptional woman made me believe the NAWALT bullshit and being instinctively romantic made me feel disgust towards many girls which resulted in my sex life being unsatisfactory until University. Then I had a string of relationships that lasted only a couple of months each, but they were largely with pretty party sluts I didn’t care for. Now that I grew out of that scene, I often struggle with women since I don’t just show up with my mixed group of awesome friends to the supermarket, random people there don’t know me like they did in my after hours place nor do people there think I’m cool because I can easily get drugs. Relying too much on social proof has been my vice because it was easy – much like relationship game is easy to me.
By the way, thanks again to everyone for the comments in reply to what I posted. I really appreciate the support. It means the world to me and I enjoy learning whatever I can from guys who are out there getting the things in life that I want to get, but don’t have yet.
My situation isn’t exactly funny, but I just kind of laughed at it. It’s gotten so extreme it’s ridiculous.
Which is a good thing. I’m having a hard time right now taking it seriously. This is exactly the mentality I want to have. Not like “oh I’m so brooding and dark and interesting” don’t give a fuck sort of way….like a comical don’t give a fuck sort of way.
I like laughing at things. I like being sarcastic and not taking things seriously. When my old boss would yell at me and be a complete prick I’d picture him in my mind like Grumpy from Snow White.
Short little fat guy working himself into a lather over some fucking meaningless job that he was taking WAY too seriously. I had to stop myself from laughing a number of times because I’d just filter out whatever he was saying and just hear “MERP MERP MERP MRGH MRGH MRGH.”
He was literally like a walking parody of himself. He would just get so angry over things that were so meaningless it was actually funny, even though he wasn’t trying to be and was just a colossal asshat.
The great thing about the past is that it’s gone. Yes, even the years of me being an incel, even if I was the incel champion of the world and had gone longer than any man in history without sex. I know that’s not true, but I’m exaggerating here on purpose to make a point.
Just blowing it up to such huge proportions that I can see the absurdity of it.
“I think it’s good I’m an incel. I think everyone should be like this. Every guy in the world should be so terrified of asking a girl for her number, he shouldn’t even try. He should just lock himself in his room and masturbate furiously until he comes so hard after draining so much of his energy that he dies in a pool of his own semen, and his parents find him dead on the floor and have to make up a story about his death so it won’t be so embarrassing. I think everyone should live like that because it’s the only safe way to live your life.”
But seriously though, if anyone can tell me what to do, that’d be great. Ask for a number? Ask them if they’d want to go out? What are normal things normal people do? Where would you meet up? Is there any good ‘standard’ for setting up a date? Or is setting up a date “Beta”? I’m out in the corn flakes over here.
I think if I just had some basic advice to follow I could start doing okay. I met this one girl at a party. She seemed to like me, and she added me on FB. So after SHE adds ME, like a week or two later, I asked her if she lived in the area (I only knew her from the party and she didn’t list it on her page), and she said yeah, why? I asked her if she wanted to go out for coffee sometime.
She never responded after that. That was the end. Is that a chumpy thing to say? Or was it just that she wasn’t interested? I had another girl at the mall GIVE ME HER NUMBER after saying I was really cute and I had great eyes, and she said to stop staring at her because I was making her blush. She writes her full name out on the paper with her phone number and e-mail address.
I send her a text a few days later asking if she wants to meet up at the mall again sometime. No response. Not one. I think I sent one more that said something like, would another time be better for you, or would you rather meet up at this place or that place. And nothing. Never heard from her again. What am I missing? Why is this so fucking complicated?
It’s not like it was a guaranteed bang, but for Christ’s sake, like…no feedback at all, how do I know if I did something wrong or if it’s just her issues?
And another girl who said she really wanted to come over again sometime. I had her over once. I asked her if she wanted to hang out, and she goes, “yes, definitely, I really want to do it soon” — this happens a few times and she flaked every time.
I never did anything Beta with her. But this shit seems to happen all the time. And it makes me wonder if I’m fucking up or if I’m just going after girls that are unavailable for whatever reason. I don’t get it.
I get the behavior over words thing. It just gets really confusing when a girl literally says something simple like she wants to meet up with you, and then you try to set up a time to do it and they flake.
“Yes, I’d definitely love to see you soon” —
— I have literally had girls text that to me, and then I try to set up a date, or even just suggest one, and they disappear. This has happened to me with the past 10 girls I’ve tried this with. Girls that I was never “Beta” with, I wasn’t buying them drinks, I wasn’t being emotional with them, I just met them at parties and we seemed to get along fine and they seemed interested and throwing IOI’s at me.
I feel like I’m supposed to be some kind of ninja that can get phone numbers and dates without asking for them because asking for them is the ‘wrong way to do it.’
What am I missing? Is there some magical formula to this?
The two one night stands I had were great. That’s all I’m looking for currently. Get down to business and then never talk to them again. I feel like that SHOULD be the easiest thing to pursue.
If it’s true that many women are down to fuck and it isn’t that hard, I sure as hell am not understanding any part of that. I’m feeling pretty autistic here.
Walawala, all the girls I fucked since I broke up with my ex had boyfriends and I’m astounded by how atrocious these men are at game and sex. What’s funny is that I feel immense power over these girls since I realize they most likely don’t cum with their boyfriends during their bi-monthly sex and I either edge them during sex for my own amusement or tease them about their boyfriends sounding like the loves of their lives and that they should marry.
@23, I was teasing a girl with a bf by whispering how I’d rough her up in her ear and then I stopped and told her that she should go tell her bf to do this to her. I paused and then said but if you told a man to do it, it would do nothing for you. So yes, lol, this is why I laugh each time women are asked what they want sexually or what makes them tingle: if they tell you, it has no value.
@softek, you need to take it easy and have patience. When I broke up with my last girlfriend, i had two knee surgeries and two close relatives died, which resulted in me failing to turn in my masters thesis. In the same time, my hanging out people largely moved to other countries or started getting married or being seriously involved with girls so I literally had nothing to get positivity out of. It’s a sucky place, but we must all try to deal with this bullshit. Life is long and it has ups and downs and if you end it during the downs, you won’t experience the highs. If pussy means that much, just hire escorts until you feel comfortable touching and fucking women. I never did the paid sex thing, but if being close to a woman is that tough, it’s a good stepping stone. I hope I didn’t misunderstand your post. Seriously, when you’ll get good at game, you’ll laugh at how easy it seems. I struggle with opening and building the initial attraction, while I’m good at relationships and fucking around with female emotions once I have them hooked so I struggle too, but I’m sure when I’ll get good at opening I’ll laugh at how silly it all was. The journey seems hard because it’s comprised of baby steps, but it’s not an unreachable destination even if you’re virgin at 35.
@Softek
Dude I am surprised anyone would have the time and
Patience to deal with all my own
Social inadequacies. What I do is work on
Each concept the red pill about one day at a time.
It’s a lot of work so I take it slow.
Need rest see damn I should watch what the hell I type and take care of myself. Damn now I’m hungry. Damn
By way try this I am self conscious as fuck and I do stand up or improve to get over my self awareness. It’s about me learning game while taking care of myself.
I love love love women ‘s (body) .
Let’s face it my fellow Rational men, Hypergamy will never ever be controlled AS LONG AS there are spineless weak men (betas /white nights)..
The question should be :
Peak Beta men?!.
Hypergamy is rooted in women’s blood, literally.
Now, is men’s beta behavior in blood too? No.
How we are going to teach men that women are nothing but little girls?
Little girls need authority and dominant figures.
To be able to control Hypergamy and do women a favor by doing so , we need to teach men how to be men, not spineless male cunts.
Ps
Rugby,
You’re really annoying me with replying to 10 people.
Can you just stop it.
I just remembered an article i read in the sunday times, one of their supplements, sometime ago. I mean 10 years ago at least. The author was writing about a young woman who essentially didn’t need beta support! and in her own words was sleeping around, obviously with the best genetic stock she could attract! To get pregnant. I was blue pill back then and thought nothing much of it.
Gamer: “Liz, you left out a ‘t’.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbihpBjckvk
😛
Ex post facto rationalization field report:
I scheduled a meetup with a broad at a venue; I wanted to discuss the times that she had disrespected me.
One of those times involved her being totally unthankful for me spending my time to teach her a move which I had paid money to learn. Her reply was that she felt uncomfortable working on it alone with me. Which we had done twice. And she wanted to work on it a third time. (She was snappy after the second time, likely because she was expecting me to kiss her and I didn’t.) She said all this with a straight face while we were alone in the exact same location where we had practiced–which private location she herself had suggested for the meetup talk. I kid you not, this was how it went down.
Her Hamster is Rodentus Giganticus, lol.
Oh, as regards the disrespecting, this broad totally dug in her heels. “I can’t be spending my life apologizing for everything.” Silly girl. She gets ignored. I’m not mad. I’m not butthurt. I’m not even disappointed. I was perplexed, but no longer. Slightly amused.
Liz, send me pics…for the chillldrenn.
Tits a lurvely song…er, twats lurvely…oh, h311, you got me cussin again.
@Pwn
“[…] being instinctively romantic made me feel disgust towards many girls which resulted in my sex life being unsatisfactory until University. Then I had a string of relationships that lasted only a couple of months each, but they were largely with pretty party sluts I didn’t care for.”
There’s nothing wrong with feeling disgust towards skanky / promiscuous women. In fact, I think it’s a natural, hardwired male response to female promiscuity; it’s evolution-based. The PUA / r-selected guys have short-circuited this natural male instinct to favor quantity over quality. To me, it’s like the difference between having an abundant supply of McDonald’s vs. having a few dry aged steaks. I guess it’s just a mater of how hungry (horny) you are and how well you’re able to control your libido.
I dunno, but personally, if I can barely stand being around a woman when we have our clothes on, there are no tricks or workarounds that would make me able to circumvent my distaste for her when our clothes are off. Even if she’s an HB9.99 (no perfect 10s in the wild…)
I like the non-worksafe version better.
@theasdgamer
“Her reply was that she felt uncomfortable working on it alone with me. Which we had done twice. And she wanted to work on it a third time.”
Not sure what kind of ‘moves’ you’re referring to, but I’m going to assume it’s dance moves for this:
It would be great if you scheduled a third session with her in the same venue, but brought along a buddy. The look on her face alone when she sees you walk in with him would be priceless… When you introduce her to him, you say, “This is [X]. I thought it would be best for us to have a chaperone for this session because you were making me a little uncomfortable last time and I want to stay focused on the work at hand.” (Make sure your buddy knows what’s up prior to bringing him in as wing.)
This disqualifies her, expresses amused mastery, and is something of a neg, all wrapped up into one. After all, she claimed she was uncomfortable working on it alone with you, right? You’re alleviating that discomfort.
[Evil laughter]
Kid, nice try, but…
1) it would be catering to her terms and her frame and she would just come up with another excuse to keep the game going so that she can continue to get my attention, Women want: 1) to be desired, 2) to be admired, and 3) attention, in that order of importance. I haven’t complimented her much, but have asked her out to my truck in the distant past as a test of compliance and to calibrate her interest, so she perceived 1) even though it was just a test. This broad wants a repeat of that with a confirmation provided by a kiss at minimum, since she felt deceived about the past experience. This broad is in the role of chaser, but she wants to make it appear that I am chasing her.
2) my frame is to ignore her until she complies by apologizing. Notice that she has been fairly compliant with my requests. She is coming along nicely. This broad will need to rationalize a reason to apologize. Likely what is behind her refusal to apologize is some sort of “girl world” crap about not apologizing for bad behavior. Pedestalization. Not something I can tolerate. I can probably motivate the girl herd in our social circle to rein her in if I can figure out a strategy.
This broad has said to me several times, “You’re not like other men.” Of course, I ping her man-dar pretty hard because I hold frame and don’t pu$$y out like most men do. I pointed that out to her and she got snippy. Even so, tingles.
@asd
You’ve already catered to her frame by expressing your displeasure with her ingratitude. Demonstrate, don’t explicate, remember? You’re not manifesting outcome independence, either – you have an expectation of gratitude from her, among other expectations. You’re manifesting neediness, not aloofness.
Forget the term “aloof”:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/14/amused-mastery/
Softek,
The most I went 5 years without so much as a touch, much less getting laid, but I didn’t really care. The most success I’ve had with women was when I wasn’t focusing on meeting women and getting laid, but when I was focused on myself.
Obsessing over meeting girls and all that follows isn’t going to make it better. It makes it worse.
It’s not that I don’t feel for you, or don’t appreciate your frustration. It’s that I think your obsessed focus on having sex as the be-all end-all is the wrong mental frame in which to succeed long term. Being good at something means being relaxed with it.
It’s not like it was a guaranteed bang, but for Christ’s sake, like…no feedback at all, how do I know if I did something wrong or if it’s just her issues?
The failure rate will be always be high. Don’t sweat it is the key. You won’t get feedback that is concrete from women, so don’t expect it.
@SGT Ted
“The most success I’ve had with women was when I wasn’t focusing on meeting women and getting laid, but when I was focused on myself.”
You are the prize…
So much great stuff here. I’m still in monk mode and am loving it. Entirely focused on my life and making great progress in all fronts particularly fitness which just improves everything.
The logical response for men is to refuse to marry or provision. Use prostitutes if u can’t find what u want without paying. We should take it a step further and also favor men in every way possible in our business dealings.
Sadly most men haven’t digested that women have intense in group preferences in all their dealings, especially business. They will action for their collective good while men do not – there is a ton of research backing this up. Men need to put men and their own needs first in everything they do socially, politically and economically. Once we do that women will change how they behave to win or provisionin. But now? They get it all and men aren’t doing. Thing to actually use the power we have to change it.
@Blaximus:
“Do not get hung up on the HB9 or 10 that won’t fuck you ( right now..). It’s been said time and time again, PUSSY is just PUSSY. It’s never worth anguish or pain. Quality pussy is the pussy you get, that you like. You don’t know quality pussy until you are balls deep in it. Then act and fuck accordingly.”
A-FUCKING-MEN!!!!!
@Softek – In the beginning awareness can be a burden….a heavy one. But trust me, and the men on this site, the pain will pass, you will be stronger for it…
When I found RM and basically red pill dialogue, I was bitter, and I used to call women out…but then I calmed down, and realised as sensei said, there’s no good or bad, even though the effects leave us scarred and are fucking painful, it is what it fucking is bruv…trust women to be women.
As Rollo says, play with them and play WITH them….
But first work on knowing and understanding that you have value, as a man….one day you’ll look back on this period and laugh.
For me some tenets of the RP that helped me were:
Me as point of origin
Self improvement
Demonstrate don’t explicate
amused mastery
Iron rules of Tomassi
And the fact that a man needs to cultivate and have options, with regards to both wealth and women…
Keep rising….
@ Softek
I just don’t understand how to do it. Get from Point A to Point B. As in, what do you do to get a girl isolated? Do you just ask for her number? Do you ask her if she wants to go out sometime? What do you do? I’m completely lost over here.
Background: I met a broad (B) through a dance class. We danced together some. Finally danced exclusively with her last Thursday night during a practice time. I was instructing her about dance. Me dominant, her submissive–and her extremely compliant and positive throughout. She has high self-confidence–a former flight attendant, then pilot. Still, I kept encouraging her despite correcting her over and over about the same things. Part of teaching. She was smiling at me the whole time and very chatty. Big IOIs. Another broad saw me at the same class and smiled at me and waved across the room. Preselection. I tell B about the party and she wants to show up. She also wants to take a lesson from me the following week. We exchange nos. in case one of us needs to change plans.
Friday night comes and B is there. I sit with her. Or at least put my stuff down by her and another broad (local celebrity) asks me to dance with her. I do. I dance some with B and lots of other women. One broad (S, for “Silly Girl”) I ignored except for chatting with her which I described in another comment.
Anyway, S keeps eyeballing me when I’m dancing and it’s creeping me out, so I tell B that I want to leave to go to another place and she wants to go too. So I pulled B to another place. I danced mostly with B there, but also with some other women there whom I already knew. All of them were hot.
Does this help?
@Softek – Also, and especially, ‘Medium is the message’.
Very important.
And as for going out there, or taking the next step….I remember watching something where a guy said, with regards to banging chics – ‘Isolate, inebriate, penetrate’…so maybe drinks over at their place or urs, escalate, bang….dates can be tricky, and from what I’ve realised after the RP, they aren’t really necessary….
Keep working on it, but don’t obsess…
@ Jupiter
You’ve already catered to her frame by expressing your displeasure with her ingratitude. Demonstrate, don’t explicate, remember?
Glad you let me explain.
No, my rules, my frame. Let her get away with ingratitude? Her frame. We needed the chat so that she understood my frame’s rules. She said, “You’re not like other men.” My frame. Subtext: “You’re higher value than other men.” Her frame is that other men pu$$y out and let her get away with 5h1t. The broad needed the chat so that she understood why I was ignoring her. Sometimes you have to explicate. If I had argued the rules, then she would have derailed my plan. I didn’t argue and she said that it looks like we couldn’t be friends or dance together. My frame. I’ve been rejecting her dance requests and haven’t been asking her to dance.
I’ve been ignoring her and she has been seeking my attention. She once showed a misery body language signal when I was passing near her and ignoring her. My frame.
She didn’t want to meet to discuss the issues at first. Finally, she agreed to do so. My frame.
She said for me not to text her at first. Then she texted me, implicitly denying her previous request. My frame.
More context:
This broad dressed up very nice for the meetup. Looking to be admired. She got zilch from me.
This broad was eyeballing me heavily after the chat. Side of the eye sometimes, quick look away others.
I left the venue very early with another broad as I mentioned in another comment. I didn’t look back to see if Silly Girl was watching–I’m sure that she was.
Like one of the commenters here said it before….The questions is not really, if or when hypergamy will reach its peak. The real question is rather if we have (hopefully) reached peak Beta-ism !!!!!
As you Rollo have written it precisely, hypergamy was always there and always will be there.
Men in western world have allowed the women to play their hypergamy game free and undisturbed….with the help of beta’s, white knights and Manginas. But i would also add the so called Alphas to that list, too !
And this situation won’t change that quick, because:
1) We Men have submitted our biggest weapon to the government.
Our violence and brutality potencial. We did so for the sake of stability
in the society.
2) “Trillions” of men are still plugged-in. Still so overwhelmingly many beta’s
out there, who are not willing and not able to change.
How many men are we here or on other top RP Blogs? The answer is, that we are very few!
I don’t know if i will be still alive to experience it ( I am 36), but one day there will be a male violent outburst.
Forget about all these pua crap, all these mental tricks and the things men do to “fuck” their minds. In the end it’s all about check and balances.
On the one side female hypergamy….and on the the other side male violence !
Testosterone levels in the western world have dropped vastly for several reasons. But it is how it is.
A man can play mental games how often he wants. He can mind-fuck himself and make enormous efforts to be appealing for the female.
IMO it won’t make any differences for a long time. All these “tricks” just can last a shorter period of time.
The only real way to restrain hypergamy is male strength and especially violence. In other parts of the world, where these conditions are given, hypergamy is restrained.
In a LTR every woman knows that deep inside. She knows that you can’t throw her through the window without losing so many things.
She knows that you are much stronger, she can feel the volcano in your chest that can burn her from head to toe. She fears it and she yearns for it.
But she also knows that you must withhold all of this.
You can play soft dread or more dread. You can trick her mind..you can burden all of her shit. But for what? Just for a pussy? Damn, i’am sorry!
That’s not enough for me.
I never work hard for a pussy…NEVER! And every woman who get’s to know me, knows that from the very first second.
I just don’t care what a woman wants. All i’am interested in, are my needs.
Can she satisfy my needs and expectations? If yes, she is welcome in my world. If not, i ignore her completely.
The last woman i have met, told me that i have too high expectations, when i have told her that a woman needs to cook good and clean house! …..hahahah…..NEXT!
Yes, a man needs sex. We need to fuck. But a pussy is a pussy and always will be just a pussy. No matter how “beautiful” a woman is, it’s just a pussy, folks!!
And always keep in mind when you meet one of these brats.
The value of vagina is just high from 18 – 25.
Pussy get’s old like bread and not like wine.
Keep that in mind when you get nervous in front of a brat…when you do all these mindfucking thoughts.
Just relax and go straight to her and talk to her and escalate as soon as possible.
I think it was Softek…..Never put a pussy on a pedestal. They don’t deserve it and they don’t like it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Lord knows it……a lot of women needs a good face slap nowadays. LOL 😉
The Ashley Madison mess is a lot worse than I thought
Using a site like search.ashleymadison.sucks, that allows zipcodes/postal codes, or names, or email domains I found
a) people I know on my street
b) people on nearby streets
c) people I know at work
This is going to put a lot of houses on the market, reducing value.
Predictably the FI is calling for no forgiveness for men caught out, and total forgiveness for women.
theasdgamer
August 23rd, 2015 at 11:27 am
Likely what is behind her refusal to apologize is some sort of “girl world” crap about not apologizing for bad behavior.
Funny. My first GF, who taught me the rudiments of game, advised me to never apologize. I took it to heart.
I will apologize and rectify my behavior if I don’t keep a promise. It is a very powerful attractant (for some women) if you keep your word. Why? Because they can’t do it. She (all of them) will adopt what ever position she feels advantages her. No matter what she said 3 seconds ago.
And if you are in to a LTR it is an excellent tool to beat them with. “I keep my word. Why can’t you?” What she doesn’t know is that the question is rhetorical. They can’t keep their word because words mean nothing to them.
ChocDoc
August 23rd, 2015 at 3:37 pm
Well there are other ways. I don’t like hitting women. I just don’t. Call it a developmental defect.
So what do I do? I violate them verbally. During a f*: “I don’t love you (women get this because they know they are incapable of anything but situational love). But I do enjoy f*ing you. I also greatly enjoy denigrating you. I enjoy wanting other women openly while I’m in you.”
Her(later-after several hours of INTENSE post f* cuddling): “That was a HOT f*. But do you have to treat me so bad?”
Me. “Yes. You love it. It makes you hot for me.”
Her: (silence)
Let me add that if a woman is into you she will do things that would totally disgust her under other circumstances. She will still have limits, but they will be fewer if she wants you.
What you have to watch out for is the delayed “rape” story.
Avoid college chicks if you are in college. If you want college chicks don’t go to college.
“You can make all the appeals to morality you’d like, but just know that our very learned, very conditioned understanding of morality is based on a societal imperative that prioritizes women above all else.”
Complete crap, Tomassi. Read the fruits of this thread, look me in the eye and tell me these are happy men. They pour women into the abyss of their souls like empty calories…and speak of great pain and wanting to kill themselves.
How we perceive the opposite gender really reveals how we perceive our own selves.
@redligth
That’s a whole new good insight
@M simon
“Avoid college chicks if you are in college. If you want college chicks don’t go to college.”
Learned the hard way.
Oh, look, it’s the FI trollbot again.
I’d love to see M Simon and insanity22 living together in Bora Bora.
Inanity – “Read the fruits of this thread, look me in the eye and tell me these are happy men.”
Sometimes men just break. Men do that sometimes, we break, especially when all the women in our lives fail us.
Rollo, please plug us back in to the Matrix. We are so unhaaaappy.
@Badpainter
“Sometimes men just break. Men do that sometimes, we break, especially when all the women in our lives fail us.”
I noticed the biggest impact with learning the red pill for me was being ok with how women are and not how I always wanted them to be. I wasn’t disappointed or emotionally vulnerable anymore in all my own issues. I never had a place but here to debrief about the most shit I’ve been through. Their is sosuave and the private male as well as Goldman. But this site has a couple more gems that combines them all. It doesn’t have to be right but provides a platform to be wrong. You use imperial evidence and most of it doesn’t hold up in debate. Being in the blue pill so long explains a good deal of my maladaptive coping skills.
It’s really soothing to just type an experience and hear another man say or type “Your gonna be ok the last time I went through that I did…”
@insanity, my comment had nothing to do with men being happy about anything. However it’s quite telling that this is your presumption; that men MUST associate their individual happiness with how they interact with women.
Once again, and like I explained in your thread about the woman in Dalrock’s thread, your default point of mental origin is to automatically associate morality, happiness, religion, contentment, legitimacy and responsibility with what serves the Feminine Imperative best.
The idea that a man could be happy or content without, or with minimal, feminine influence is utterly alien to you. I could get every member of SoSuave, MGTOW, the MRA, RVF, TRP and every commenter on every manosphere blog to explain their various levels of happiness to you and it wouldn’t change your ego-investment in the FI one bit, because you already pair that investment with your personal faith.
What you don’t grasp is the constant effort you have to make in order to force fit what every man in the sphere is showing into a faith that was co-opted by the feminine imperative and feminist influences for almost 4 decades now.
@Pwn
So, So, So true. Being a Man and being an Alpha is fucking awesome. Being a beta is hard, I’d known because I was one in my late teens and early 20s – always asking permission and deferring to the women. My god, that shit is exhausting!!
As Tyler said in.. The Truth of Women.. maybe, I don’t remember, the damn article is 10 years old now (!!!), but believe your own bullshit and the women will too!!
One of the craziest, if not craziest truths of women I learned is they don’t give a FUCK about the truth! It’s unreal! Their hamsters turn them into lying machines at least compared to the standard of a man. But in all honesty, most of my male friends are lying machines these days, anyways.
” I never lie because I don’t fear anyone. You only lie when you’re scared.”
– John Gotti
Lead and believe the bullshit coming out of your mouth >>>>>>>> Asking her what she wants to do and then doing that
@rugby11ljh
Dude, dont worry about being in your late 20s and finding this priceless knowledge. I’ve read RM and CH for a while (rarely do I leave comments) and IMO, you’re still pretty damn young for finding this knowledge, compared to the typical age a man enters the manosphere. Get your ducks in line and prepare for your 30s to be the best period of you life, because you have the apex of information on being a man.
@ rugby11ljh
I wasn’t serious with that. I was just throwing inanity’s own nonsense back at her. The whole line about men breaking because women fail them is a gender reversal of something she said on her blog in defense of a baby killing whore. Inanity has oodles of empathy for a woman who kills her own children and not single drop for the average man. Hypocrite doesn’t doesn’t even begin to describe her. She’s feels nothing but hate for men generally despite her professed faith.
“I could get every member of SoSuave, MGTOW, the MRA, RVF, TRP and every commenter on every manosphere blog to explain their various levels of happiness to you …”
Would you mind terribly doing just that, Tomassi? Rugby claims he’s soothed, well that’s something anyway.
This will probably sail right over your ideology driven head, Tomassi, but my imperative is actually happy, contented men and I sure don’t see much evidence of that in these threads.
“…my imperative is actually happy, contented men and I sure don’t see much evidence of that in these threads.”
Willing slaves and bootlicks are scarce around here.
Keep dodging IB. Your concept of contentment is created by your ego-investment in a feminine primary context.
There is no such thing as contentment, and happiness isn’t durable. Men know this and grow from it.
Men are raised to expect things to be hard and are grateful when they’re easy. Women expect things to be easy and complain when they’re difficult.
You are a shining example of women’s solipsistic nature. There is literally no existential possibility of happiness or contentment without a woman being part of that equation.
Question,how does one deal with abusive feminist moms when you depend on them economically?
What about the abandonment that ‘the lost boys’ go through.I realised I hate mother extremely. That’s what has driven me to the red pill.But since I’m economically dependent,I feel trapped.
Insanity,
“Tomassi, but my imperative is actually happy, contented men and I sure don’t see much evidence of that in these threads.”
And could you please tell us about the high divorce rate? And who initiates the divorce?
Or that is not in your imperative where men are content? Wait till you discover your husband’s IP addresses on Ashley Madison .
Personally, I ain’t have a problem with beautiful women, I have a problem with ugly women thinking they are beautiful.
“There is no such thing as contentment, and happiness isn’t durable.”
I am content and I suffer from “durable happiness” Tomassi, and life has never been easy for me.
So, I now know you don’t believe in love,contentment,or happiness? That’s really sad. I’m so sorry.
@dexter
“Question,how does one deal with abusive feminist moms when you depend on them economically?”
First of all, by learning to not depend on them emotionally. Then you sort out that anger of yours by reading from TRM best of year one and keep reading until you start to see the light or you’ll be doomed to repeat this same (or a similar) relationship over and over with almost every woman you hook up with.
It sucks…but it can’t suck worse for you than it does now, right?
I’ll ask again: Doesn’t this chick have her own blog to write? It wasn’t a rhetorical question.
@Badpainter
Always makes me think of my mothers hardship with her miscarriage and my sister calling me about her abortion at 16. Women rarely seem to wanna talk about how the male feels about the whole thing sounds rhetorical saying that here but I never had a say in my household when women demanded the right to choose it that regard. Weird now how today it doesn’t hurt as much to think about.
@23
Hey Thanks a lot brother.
I can see you still suffer from making your necessity a virtue, here’s why you’re wrong:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/31/perfecting-the-fantasy/
“I can see you still suffer from making your necessity a virtue, here’s why you’re wrong”
Not at all, Tomassi. If some men find contentment without women, than more power to them. There are quite a few lovely MGTOW’s in the world…. and a few total wankers, too.
I read your piece on contentment and you are not entirely wrong, it is just semantics here. I truly am “durably happy,” but than again I know that all the angst and misery is often the best part of all. That is where all our great poetry and romance lives.
@Rollo
“There is no such thing as contentment, and happiness isn’t durable. Men know this and grow from it.”
That’s really a huge part of the joy of it all.
@dexteranddeedee
I would find work and try to leave on the best terms possible.
If you’re contentment is so durable, then why are you posting here? Be content with your position and write your blog. I don’t see Tomassi trolling your blog trying to convince and convert your readers to his position. He’s content concentrating on his own blog. And we’re content having a discussion about the topics Tomassi writes about that are unique to our experiences as men. If we found value or relevance in your positions as a woman on our male experience we’d come comment on your blog. Get it?
@diplomat @rugby
It really sucks.You loose faith in everything,even turn suicidal.But I guess the red pill has made it easier.Still,power flows from above,hence the resentment of being bullied by your own mum.People cry of breakups and divorce.No one talks about hurt boys.I’m going to college in a few weeks time,and certainly this knowledge gives me an edge.But to think of all the time I’ve waisted.To see all my friends naturally confident while I feel shitty…DAMN.
It hurts more that you have to fight for yourself and nobody really cares.
” . . . my imperative is actually happy, contented men . . .”
Go away.
Insanity, “That is where all our great poetry and romance lives.”
Our? You mean men and women made the world’s best poetry and romance?
It was MEN, just men.
women/ girls typed romantic words and dreamed about the wedding dress.
What you don’t grasp is the constant effort you have to make in order to force fit what every man in the sphere is showing into a faith that was co-opted by the feminine imperative and feminist influences for almost 4 decades now.
Maybe Victorian ideas about chivalry as well? So the FI could have had cultural influences even before it penetrated the Christian faith.
@dexteranddeedee
“It hurts more that you have to fight for yourself and nobody really cares.”
Dude breath deep and journal your ideals of what gives you purpose create a mission for yourself that doesn’t have to be financial.
Do things to build your confidence every day. For me I built a tree house even thought it was on public land because I needed an outlet from the control I know so much about at this point I use rugby as my main course of action.
But for bonding find folks who relate to your goals. Be patient with yourself. I’ve been in that financial mess with my own mother. The way I got away from it is by looking for creative ways to part. Make a list about the goals you wanna accomplish and don’t tell anyone. Look for income that coincides with your goals. At 27 my mom has a hard time seining me as my own man. It’s not easy at this stage just keep pushing yourself. I dealt with the stress by hanging around blue pill buddy’s because I already though it was all a lost cause. It’s not and you need to respect the process. The situation your in isn’t unique to you but it’s yours to work with. Remember how you can use your attitude to help with the process. When things go crazy ground yourself with all everything and every part of your biological entity. I used to get to that state by doing 50 mile runs.
Your mom is a lot more familiar with you as my mom is with her. We move on and grow in the times of are existence.
You are a shining example of women’s solipsistic nature. There is literally no existential possibility of happiness or contentment without a woman being part of that equation.
When Mrs. Gamer briefly moved out of our home for three weeks, I was quite contented, lol. Of course, she asked me later if I missed her and I had to lie.
It hurts more that you have to fight for yourself and nobody really cares.
You have been programmed to rely upon women caring about you. That programming is hostile to your mental health. It is an enemy program. Fight it.
@theasdgamer
“When Mrs. Gamer briefly moved out of our home for three weeks, I was quite contented, lol. Of course, she asked me later if I missed her and I had to lie.”
My wife said today to me “I think you would be very happy to live on your own instead of stuck with me”. This was true, but I replied with another truth “I’m quite happy with everything we have here”.
@Softie – You are closing for dates too quickly. The text follow up a couple of days later goes like this. “Hey”. You wait till she sends you a text back and then you start with the goofy teasing crap. You try to have her send more texts than you do. She asks, “What you doing?” You “I’m grooming my pet alligator, his claws are just out of control.” You have to activate her fantasy, thinking you are daring or adventurous or at least that your frame is interesting and fun.
When closing for the date, keep to the following:
1. Be super casual.”I’ve got some time Monday night and could meet up for a drink. The rest of the week is busy.”
2. She says “q[reoasasdkflf” – doesn’t matter. Even if she says nothing.
3. “Wear something sexy, see you at 8 a SlutsGetFucked in the MensRoom bar”
Spin plates. My guess is that you are obsessing on one woman. Another point, go back to those girls who blew you off with something like. “So you are a flake, got it.” Very likely they’ll respond. If they do you are like, “So are you going to ask me out? Make it worth my while and maybe I won’t flake on you.” You have to activate their emotions with negatives and positives – push-pull.
Ideally, you have 5 or more plates working at any given time. One flakes? Next. But don’t eliminate them or text them like crazy or get mad – this is just how woman are. You can often re-plate them or they re-surface on their own. Not chasing them or getting mad demonstrates huge value.
I also wonder how much value you are demonstrating. I drag women into my world and they know that I’m a busy businessman with my own business, traveling and with an active social life. I’m playing gigs, hanging with friends and family, I’m at the gym, volunteering at the local soup kitchen.
Good that you are trying. I still suggest you do a PUA course, it will accelerate you through this phase of game much more quickly – and if you started a year ago when I suggested this for the first time to you, women would not be renting space in your head right now. Krauser stuff is great, I’d go with him for sure.
When I personally experience the ruthlessness with which women exercise their options and choices (Hypergamy) I am surprised that any man including me ever agrees to any sort of commitment to them.
When they are attractive and have options, they spin plates without a care in the world; even plates they don’t sexually care about.
Time and time again women have performed crazy stunts to get my attention and as soon as they feel that if they wanted me, they could get me, they cut me off. As soon as I decide to move on they come back again. Rinse. Repeat.
At a time when their youth and attractiveness starts to decline, they start begging, pleading and attempting all sorts of manipulation to get me to commit.
Personally, if she is not interested in me, I am perfectly fine with that. What gets me is that she encounters me, I going about my business, she does everything to get my attention, I make a move and then she cuts me off. I think to myself: well, that’s fine. I am moving on. She pursues me again and toys with me like a yo-yo.