Interview with Niko Choski

I did about an hour and a half interview with Niko Choski this weekend. Niko is a great guy and he treated me very well. His podcast is rooted in the MGTOW side of things and as I’ve said before I’m not really an adherent of that lifestyle obviously, but I do understand and appreciate the motivation behind it.

Just to reiterate it again I don’t subscribe to PUA, MRA, MGTOW or any other tenets in full. I have issues with all the various branches of the manophere and I think all of them have something to positively contribute to a better understanding of intersexual dynamics. It’s my take on the MGTOW side of things that the one common thread these guys share is putting themselves as their own mental point of origin,and I go into that a bit in this interview.

Not all MGTOWs are cut from the same cloth. As I understand it Niko puts himself out there to engage women, but his perspective is one of ROI and making himself the primary frame setter when he does. As I stated before, my main concern is men isolating themselves socially and I think that taken to its extreme MGOTW can lead men to a self imposed isolation. Niko and I discussed this a bit too, as well as covering the true forced loneliness groups.

That said I think there’s more Red Pill common ground in the mindset. Yeah, I get that any man’s wife is empowered by the state to essentially be the deciding factor in how that guy will live his life. I’m not advocating for marriage, and certainly not in the hostile social state it’s in today – but you don’t have to marry or even entertain monogamy to engage with women. Regardless of how you go about it, becoming Red Pill aware will necessitate that a man ‘goes his own way’ in some respect. Applying Red Pill knowledge may mean you learn Game or it may mean you simply decided to recuse yourself from it, but that awareness will require you to put yourself first.

So, have a listen and let me know what you think.

 

In other news the Man in Demand conference is down to the last 4 or 5 tickets by my last count. It will sell out soon, so if you’re still on the fence now’s the time to get your reservations set.

97 comments

  1. Solid interview Rollo. One thing id like to add that i think would help clear up the blurred line between the basic distinction of alpha/beta: its subjective, and depends on the girl observing the guys behavior. Remember from psychology: the archetype that the father sets in childhood sets the stage for what she looks for in a man for the rest of her life. Therefore, an alpha is a man who displays the masculine traits of her father. We also know from psychology that girls are black or white about judging the man in question, since they decide if they want to fuck within 5 minutes into the first meeting.

  2. Happened to catch it last night when it had just been put up.

    I would suggest that the company of men is not social isolation. I would also suggest that the extreme of MGTOW isolationism is mostly TFL guys using MGTOW as a rationalization, rather than an effect of MGTOW itself. I note that torture is within the sphere of human experience, but I wouldn’t recommend that anybody seek it out on that basis.

    I would also point out that English generally has a meter of eye-AM-bic pen-TAM-eter, but then I have defended NUKE-ya-ler as non-standard, but not incorrect because it has a correct Latin root, and have pointed out that “Axe” is a perfectly good Anglish word for making an inquiry, so I won’t belabour the point.

    Other than those relatively minor points, good job by the both of you.

  3. “I don’t subscribe to PUA, MRA, MGTOW or any other tenets in full. I have issues with all the various branches of the manophere and I think all of them have something to positively contribute to a better understanding of intersexual dynamics.”

    The manosphere desperately needs more guys like Niko and yourself. ‘Divide and conquer’, like we’re seeing so much of these days from the various factions is a waste of time and energy.

  4. Hey Rollo,
    Could you please explain in a few lines, in a future post, what exactly you mean by one’s own mental point of origin.
    Thanks😊

  5. @ Rollo

    I listened to the podcast (good stuff as usual). One idea that crossed my mind – and it’s more of the idea of getting the message out versus site clicks or any type of monetary gain. How about something similar to bumper stickers (or similar) with something as simple as “The Rational Male”…like a bread crumb trail for more men to find this valuable information. You can decide to include the URL (or not).

    I know it could have the possibility of the bad elements coming with it (i.e. trolls, etc…) but it is another avenue to explore to get the word out.

    Thanks,
    D

  6. @ rollo
    I get hypergamy , AF/BB, Good girls do, medium is the message etc. I understand that a woman will decide in minutes, sometimes seconds if she’s going to Fuck you.
    It’s just that sometimes I believe that a woman has you marked as alpha, she gets the tingles, she is dtf, but then an alarm goes off and because she is hot for you and would like more than a ONS she will pull back and snowflake about not being that kind of girl etc.
    I’m talking about 30 plus post Smv peak women here of course.
    I don’t believe that just because a woman won’t bang you quickly that this Always indicates a Low IL, sometimes I think they are trying to sell you the “quality woman” myth so you won’t think less of them for banging quickly even though that’s what they actually want.
    Any thoughts on this dynamic?

  7. @Play Don’t Pay: I think you’ve summed it up pretty well yourself. The slut shield goes up when she’s angling for some degree of commitment. She’ll also likely do this in a push/pull cycle as well, to create an addictive response to her, the same way a slot machine feeds out small “wins” to keep you playing, even though your wins never come up to the level of your loses.

    So there’s the message. You simply have to decide what your limit for accepting this behaviour is. Play along to your limit, then next. The danger to you is that the push/pull cycle is designed to get you to go past your limit, to create a sense of investment that you don’t want to abandon.

    So don’t do that. Keep your frame, keep yourself as your mental point of origen and the prize to be won. Make her chase you. If she’s really interested she will. If she’s not, well, now you know and can move on to a more likely prospect. She’s not something to be conquered. She’s just another woman.

  8. One question that I feel didn’t really get answered was what does a potential future red pill aware society look like? I have no idea, but it’s fun to think about.

  9. “…the same way a slot machine feeds out small “wins” to keep you playing, even though your wins never come up to the level of your loses…

    …She’s just another woman”

    It’s amazing how accurate the women/slot machine analogy really is!

    There’s always more slot machines in the casino.

    Wait around long enough and they even take the older ones out and put new ones in!

    Only bring in what you are willing to lose.

    The house always wins.

    However…you know how many other men have played that machine before you???

  10. Some general thoughts about the interview:

    Rollo brings up his lesser Alpha persona. I would be in praise of the lesser Alpha role in a LTR (of course I’m ego-invested in this).

    The lesser Alpha has an important by-product in the “lesser-dom” over a superior Alpha. That by product is stability. Rather than exponentially increasing his super alpha traits (hypergamously admired by women) and attraction cues, he reigns himself in a bit so as not to flame out. Stability in a LTR is a valuable commodity. More-so when in today’s times there are fewer quality women. If you have a quality woman as a LTR that still complements your being, one in the hand is worth two in the bush. You want to keep the relationship stable with your own mental point of origin and keep frame without leaning in (compromising yourself) and without having one-itis (especially if you are averse to spinning real plates or can be negatively impacted by legal problems with adultery). So the lesser alpha role is more calibrated to stability in a LTR esp. a traditional marriage.

    In regards to being masculine: Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors and roles generally associated with boys and men, including strength, courage, assertiveness (aggressiveness), independence, mastery, honor. (Screw the FI defined traits, masculinity is better defined by men for men.)

    Masculine strength is primarily physical strength, but can also include surrogates for physical strength in modern civilized society (as opposed to pre-agrarian tribal life of man’s hindbrain evolution). Such surrogates can be financial strength or intellectual strength.

    Courage applies to red pill awareness and game practice. Not picking on certain commenters like Divided Line, but you have to have courage to swallow the red pill. I don’t have any (judgemental) problems with guys like Cypher in the Matrix movie that want to go back to blue pill, but it takes courage to be outside the Matrix (which is sucking the life–and masculinity–out of you).

    Independence is keeping your own mental point of origin and not seeking redemption in others including a female partner. …..and talking about some women not being worth the squeeze to a MGTOW, on another hand, to a masculine male the very definition of a FREE masculine male is a man who cannot be squeezed into doing something he would otherwise never do.

    Honor in the sense of honor among men. Not the fickle honor of hypergamous women.

  11. @ kfg
    Love the slot machine analogy, very apt. The pussy casino always wants house advantage, It’s my job not to concede it.

  12. Great interview, very mature and professional , both voices worth a thousand pictures.

    Loved it when you talked (with bewilderment) about men still dreaming of virgins or about men still believe of women’s love.

    I think men must understand that women are ONLY capable of loving little boys .

    Loved it when you talked about Roosh. And I want to name him : a useful idiot .
    This useful idiot is completely lost (purposely)his way, his alliance with stormfront (on the Web only) against SJW ,leaves no room for his “neo masculinity” crusade.
    There is no “neo masculinity” and old masculinity, there is the Redpill awareness masculinity.

    Niko asked you about “pussy peak” ? great question for a great future post?

    Again, great interview.

  13. “Love the slot machine analogy, very apt.”

    It isn’t even entirely an analogy. It works by the very same psychological mechanism. At the Lizard Brain level we have a rather small number of stimulus/response mechanisms, no more than a lizard.

    A good deal of our behaviour stems not from rational thought, but from rationalizing thought. We are the excuse making animal.

  14. With all the emphasis on women’s ovulation SYSTEM, I can’t believe men still want women to love them.
    Women’s love is an arousal love , you’re arousing! Bingo! She loves you.

  15. Excellent questions; excellent responses – a very balanced conversation. Thank you.
    .
    The conjunction of the strip club facade and ROI was fascinating.

  16. @kfg @play don’t pay

    Any thoughts on this dynamic?

    So there’s the message. You simply have to decide what your limit for accepting this behaviour is. Play along to your limit, then next. The danger to you is that the push/pull cycle is designed to get you to go past your limit, to create a sense of investment that you don’t want to abandon.

    This dynamic kfg describes is what Patrice O’Neal refers to as being her Time Ho. It can very rapidly spin out of control in to being her orbiter. For me, the moment a woman cuts me off from escalation (i.e. progress toward sex), I cut her off from my time. Women want your only and most valuable resource: time. Do not give it to them without getting an acceptable exchange. It’s way too valuable to be given away freely (in the process turning yourself in to a low value Time Ho).

    There’s also the possibility that you displayed momentary incongruence that pegged you as not fuckable but still a possible provider. See: Rollo’s pour girl example. I have done this to myself before and watched the girl’s mood flip in half a second. Gracefully excuse yourself and bail on the conversation; you ain’t gettin’ your groove back.

    In both cases, you’re best off rapidly determining your position and NEXTing.

  17. @anonim77

    That phrase also is tricky for me, even though I had read Rollo’s post on it. All due respect to Rollo, for some people the term is not as easily understood by some for whom the concept is alien.

    I recently posted on here that it was a difficult concept for me to REALLY grasp, even though intellectually I did get the gist. That probably speaks volumes about me. Some people DON’T have the same issue grokking it.

    I appreciated Rollo revisiting it on the podcast because I think it helped me understand more even I was already making headway.

    If I could, let me try to elaborate for both you and myself. If I am off-base, I am sure someone will help out.

    Being your own mental point of origin means: do you consider your own wants, needs, desires, dislikes, etc., FIRST when making decisions? It can consist of major life changes like switching jobs or moving to another country or state, or what the hell you feel like doing on a night off.

    Hell, do you even consider those wants, needs, desires, etc. of yours at ALL when making decisions in your life?

    That doesn’t mean you don’t consider the impact of anything you do on anyone else from friends, relatives or even strangers, but that it first has to pass through your own committee of one before you even get to that latter stage of review.

    And even when it DOES get to that latter stage of review, do you still withhold for yourself the right to Veto shit that does not work for YOU?

    It is the idea that you have the right to seek your own happiness first, and that you frankly should because what is life if not a pursuit of that happiness before the dirt nap. It is the idea that while you can and should honor obligations, you have the right to refuse any obligations which are not fair to you or interfere with with your own life pursuits.

    Here is where I got tripped up.

    It is about having life pursuits in the first place.

    It is about deciding, or getting to decide, what to do with this one life you get (Hindus mileage may vary), and not allowing people’s judgement or expectations to force your into roles which are not of your own choosing.

    It does not necessarily mean being a selfish, self-centered prick, but instead insisting that you get decide what is best for you, and you get to make decisions based on that evaluation, despite anyone else’s desires or feelings.

    It is being able to feel instantly and without distortion what YOU feel and want instead of constantly worrying about anyone else is thinking and desiring.

    Let me give a really pathetic description of NOT having myself as the Mental Point of Origin when I was much younger.

    Was in a trio of friends from high school. One of the guys I knew for a lot longer and liked and we were good friends. The other guy we met in HS and I was lukewarm about for various reasons, mostly because something about him rubbed me the wrong way in a subtle way.

    Well, the two guys have some sort of falling out. Even though I did not like the second guy all that much, I felt obligated to not only stay in touch, but even hang out with him.

    Why?

    Mostly guilt. We HAD been all friends, and I was unable to just write him off even though quite frankly I had no real interest in maintaining the friendship. I also probably felt some obligation to hang in there and get them to reconcile, which they did.

    Plus, frankly, back then, I was a non-confrontational pussy.

    So, I wasted a lot of my fucking time and effort either hanging out with a guy I did not like, or dodging a guy I did not want to hang out with.

    If I HAD been my mental point of origin, when the friendship between the other guys tanked, I should have fucking kicked the annoying prick to the curb as well. It was what I truly WANTED, but not what I did because I put other people’s feelings and concerns first. I felt obligated to a friendship that just did not work for me anymore.

    Hell, if I truly had my Mental Point of Origin in place, I would have been the first one to kick him to the curb. Instead, I put up with shit and wasted my own time in consideration of everyone BUT me.

    Now, an example of the reverse, of keeping myself the Mental Point of Origin, years later, with the same guys.

    After the two guys reconciled, I had a falling out with them. Did not see or hear from either for 15 years, until the guy I did like called me. We get together, hang out, talk about old times, and it’s fine. He then tells me he is still in contact with the guy who annoyed me, suggesting we all get together sometime.

    “Nope,” I say.

    “What?! Really?” he says, incredulous. I don’t know if was the answer or the fact I was so quick and decisive about it.

    “Yep. Not interested. No hard feelings toward the guy, but he wore me fucking out and I am not interested in catching up.”

    I don’t think I took half a second to think about it. Knew I did not want to do it, and was not going to let anything or anyone convince me otherwise.

    You know what? Felt REALLY good, and it was a good fucking decision, because it was made with what I WANTED first and foremost.

    Could I have just met up one time, just to see if maybe the guy had grown the fuck up and was less annoying?

    Yeah. But I had absolutely no interest in doing so, and no motivation. I made that decision and did not blink.

    THAT was keeping myself as Mental Point of Origin.

  18. @Seraph
    “Instead, I put up with shit and wasted my own time in consideration of everyone BUT me.”

    That’s what drew me the red pill and I bet at least a dollar that I use to be that annoying guy at one point what got me over that is constant rejection. It helped more than hurt. I think if I knew of the red pill as a teenager I would have been less annoying and obnoxious.
    But I am gratefull for learning and being able to whisper
    Because I am a Man.

  19. “It is about having life pursuits in the first place.”

    This is why I have on a number of occasions asked men what their mission was when they were in the 12 to 16 year old bracket. Almost every young man has some pursuit or five that occupies their mind and perhaps their time. Playing football, going fishing, riding dirt bikes, studying nature – but then those drives get lost in the race for rats and women, or even crushed out by forced service to mama’s imperative.

    Thinking back to what those important pursuits were when you were younger can help you re-center yourself.

    And it’s interesting that for all the times I have asked it, I have yet to actually receive an answer.

  20. @kfg

    I personally never lost sight of my dream, even in my blue pill stupor. I pursued and achieved my dream of being a doctor which I had as weird as it sounds since I was 6. Needed 20 more years to do it, but it was done. What you end up having following that is a period of almost emptiness that you need to fulfill with new dreams and new goals and even more hobbies.

    Dreams can be re-evaluated even when achieved. Therefore, I would say a drive in a man’s life exists even within a marriage or whatever when they constantly create new dreams. Otherwise you do become very, very tired of living indeed. I would much rather have men have dreams independent of others. Such as dreams that they can achieve themselves,at least that creates a mindset of only achieving dreams that benefit you specifically.

    Never thought prior to coming to the manosphere and actively engaging within communities that my so called selfishness that ex’s and squeezes would quote to me when they tried to shame me, would come useful to a positive red pill outlook to life.

    But here we are.

  21. @kfg
    “And it’s interesting that for all the times I have asked it, I have yet to actually receive an answer.”

    That’s something I’m going to journal about.

  22. @Niko Choski: ” I pursued and achieved my dream of being a doctor which I had as weird as it sounds since I was 6.”

    I am an older man, so it doesn’t sound weird to me at all. In my own youth that was one of the big three dreams of boys, along with fireman and policeman. Then astronaut came along and made it four. My, how times have changed.

    As an aside, Google only lets me exist on YT as a ghost in the walls, so you won’t have seen me there, but I have followed you from the beginning. Ya done good.

  23. One thing I get from the more extreme end of the MGTOW scene is that if a guy so much as considers altering his behavior, either genuinely or as a PUA ‘act’, he’s accused of “letting his little head do the thinking for the big head.”

    I don’t think I’m alone when I point out that the only time I’ve heard this actually stated, it universally came from the mouth of a woman. Women came up with this accusation in order to shame men into questioning their motives when it came to preferring a hotter, younger, more sexually available sexual competitor than themselves.

    The latent purpose of course is to disqualify a sexual rival by shaming a man for only being interested in a woman’s sexual potential (and implying he’s not interested in her nebulous intrinsic personal worth), but the reasoning behind it is the same equalist dogma that plays on downgrading the importance sex should have for a man.

    It seems to me that the more militant MGTOWs picked up on this same tactic and use it with much of the same reasoning. When I said men need sex for a full(er) human experience, the accusation is “he’s just letting his little head do the thinking for the big head” without any consideration for what sex really means to men. It’s like an Achilles Heel they hate to have pointed out to them.

    It makes me wonder what they’d tell the men in the DeadBedrooms subredd.

    https://therationalmale.com/2013/06/26/you-need-sex/

    What I don’t think a lot of MGTOWs get, you can put yourself out there, you can interact and do the dance socially with women, and still remain your own mental point of origin. This is exactly my concern with regard to isolation – it gets to a point that even if you think about doing something different in order to attract a woman the more absolutist strains of MGTOW equate that with selling out. It gets to the point that just dressing yourself in the morning calls into question your reasons for putting on this shirt and those jeans.

    It’s just another (debilitating) form of Crisis of Motive:

    https://therationalmale.com/2013/07/18/crisis-of-motive/

  24. Dreams can be re-evaluated even when achieved. Therefore, I would say a drive in a man’s life exists even within a marriage or whatever when they constantly create new dreams. Otherwise you do become very, very tired of living indeed. I would much rather have men have dreams independent of others. Such as dreams that they can achieve themselves,at least that creates a mindset of only achieving dreams that benefit you specifically.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/31/perfecting-the-fantasy/

    Wrote this a long time ago:

    Here’s a secret – there’s no such thing as contentment.

    Being content implies that life is static; it’s not, and to be honest, how boring would that be anyway? Life consists of varying states of discontent: why else would you bother doing anything? But the good news is that it’s more fun and more beneficial to manage discontent than to endure contentment (which you can’t anyway since it’s transitory at best). The trick is to understand that there are 2 kinds of discontent – creative and destructive discontent. What you choose to do with that discontent makes all the difference in the world. You will only get what you’ve gotten if you keep doing what you’ve done. Don’t allow yourself to fall back into old destructive habits of dealing with discontent. Don’t bother with anti-depressants and self-help books when a good hard workout at the gym would serve you better.

    The truth is I’m always discontent, but constructively so. The minute you can look yourself in the mirror and be happy with what you see you’re sunk. You can always improve, even after achieving things that were once very important and difficult to attain. Happiness is a state of being, it’s in the ‘doing’ not the ‘having done.’ It’s not about endlessly chasing your tail, it’s about being better than you were the day before.

  25. https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/04/taking-things-slow/

    The nature of the Alpha guy that women crave pushes him to have sex, not wait for it. In fact that sexual insistence is a prime indicator that a woman is dealing with an Alpha. The man who’d agree to ‘taking it slow’ telegraphs Beta to her. Sexual impulsivity is an Alpha indicator that translates into a Man who insists on getting what he wants in other aspects of life – which benefits HER and her future offspring’s long term provisioning. In the long term, women want Men who other men want to be and other women want to bang. The man agreeing to the patience and effort needed to “take it slow” is indicating that he’s not accustomed to insisting on, and getting what he wants. If he can sublimate his most powerful biological imperative to get sex, what else is he willing to sublimate?

    Sex is the deal breaker, but in my pointing it out I run the risk of coming across as “shallow” or “superficial.” It’s important, but it shouldn’t be that important, right?

    Wrong. It is THAT important. Sex is the glue that holds relationships together.

    If you encountered a woman who fit every ideal you ever had for a relationship – best friend, loving, 100% loyal, excellent mother, came from a great family, perfect HB 10, healthy both mentally and physically, emotionally available, intellectually stimulating, shared all your beliefs – who loved you unconditionally and wanted to marry you, but with one caveat; he/she would NEVER have sex with you under any circumstances, would you marry this person? You could have children together through insemination and they would always be platonically affectionate with you; knowing full well before you did, and pledging to be completely faithful yourself, would you spend the rest of your life in a completely sexless marriage with an otherwise ideal person?

    Remember this sexless state doesn’t come after having had sex before (due to an injury or disability), it’s a pre-condition for the relationship. That’s the underlying message of “taking it slow” – all the benefits and emotional perks of a relationship with no expectation of sex. It’s like men having a fuck buddy, all the sex he wants with no expectation of emotional investment.

    This is how important sex is. People tend to think of love as coming in different varieties and colors – platonic, fraternal, familial, erotic, agape, etc. All of this is nonsense. Love is love, it’s how it’s expressed that’s different. I love my Mom, my brother, my best friend and my daughter, but I only fuck my wife – that’s what makes us husband and wife, not brother and sister. Sex can be an expression of love or it can be an act of recreation, but it is always a prerequisite for an intersexual relationship. It’s time we all stopped deemphasizing the importance of sex and accept it for what it is. Every time we think we’re taking some moral high-road by saying it’s superficial or shallow to place such importance on sex, we only do a disservice to ourselves and our lovers. We’re only screwing ourselves by thinking that we’re in some way above sexuality in some lame self-delusion that in stating so will make us more desirable and set us apart from the rest of the herd (who are also claiming to be above sex anyway). It IS that important, so start giving it the respect it deserves. You do yourself no favors by desexualizing yourself.

  26. Kewl

    “Why are my ovaries trying to make me cheat?

    I am in a happy relationship of three years. We have sex at least once a week which is fine for both of us. I can see myself staying with this guy indefinitely – he’s a fantastic man and a real keeper in so many ways.

    HOWEVER.

    Once a month, as reliably as clockwork, I ovulate, and All Hell Breaks Loose inside my head. For about 48 hours, all I can think about is sex, I cannot get it off my mind, and it is sex with ANYONE.

    It’s like my hormones go completely overboard with the “encouraging me to procreate” thing. I look at my creepy co-worker, my mean boss, my attached male friend, and all of them are suddenly fair game. Right now I am slightly grossing myself out writing about it, but for those two days, I find myself plotting ways to make them want me.

    My problem is that I occasionally feel myself actually going too far with this. One day, I’m terrified that one of these horrifically unsuitable targets will reciprocate, and I’ll find myself actually acting on my insane urges.

    Let me assure you that this really does ONLY happen when I’m ovulating. I’m so relieved every month when the urges pass and I can go back to normal old me. It’s as powerful as the hormones on the opposite side of the month, which you will understand if, like me, you suffer from really bad PMT.”

    http://ask.metafilter.com/174708/Why-are-my-ovaries-trying-to-make-me-cheat

  27. “I don’t think I’m alone when I point out that the only time I’ve heard this actually stated, it universally came from the mouth of a woman.”

    In a former age it universally came from the mouths of older men, who invented the phrase. It was the prime directive of proto-red pill. It is illustrated in the final scene of The Maltese Falcon.

    “What I don’t think a lot of MGTOWs get . . .”

    A lot of men are never going to get it. Pick Up gathers more than its fair share of aspies, and MGTOW gathers more than its fair share of autists. It doesn’t create them.

    It’s always going to be a matter of triage.

  28. “You do yourself no favors by desexualizing yourself.”

    Of all the concepts of the current narrative, I think the idea of society “sexualizing women” drives me the craziest. The concept is self-cancelling, as the concept “women” only exists by sexualization.

    Society doesn’t sexualize women, frickin’ biology does.

  29. I just remembered a segment in the interview about the slut walk and women having the right to wear whatever they want and (BETA) men must not get aroused . Niko saying something like ;
    The feminine imperative/ Hypergamy is making male’s sexual biology against the law ,well, I agree. But, don’t the MGTOW is suppressing their own sexual biology too?.

  30. ” . . . don’t the MGTOW is suppressing their own sexual biology too?.”

    In the sense that choosing your diet is suppressing your energy biology.

  31. We men have different strengths, interests, and psychological traits, Whether our reaction to red pill truths is competing harder, or resigned acceptance of AWALT, or MGTOW, etc, will depend on those differentiating factors. The core red pill truths will always be more interesting and useful than advocacy for any one of the possible reactions to such truths.

  32. To me, MGTOW is a man who first and foremost, doesn’t place others before him. Getting into the seductive arts in fact teaches you to become this way, so all of us are MGTOW in some shape or form.

    I think what many men are using MGTOW for, is an excuse to simply not take the bull by the horns and actually change their circumstances. It’s not a solution in my opinion, because you’re essentially training to avoid your birth right, which is to seduce and bed beautiful women.

    It’s absolutely fine to be MGTOW once you’ve gone through the process of learning and bedding some girls. But to use it as an avoidance strategy simply isn’t the answer.

  33. I can certainly understand the thinking behind MGTOW.

    Every emotionally painful experience in my life has been at the hands of a woman. Every one. (holy crap that sounds beta)

    Starting as a child when I was told I should be ashamed for having a penis, and that all men are rapists.

    Culminating with marrying, and having children with, the wrong woman. A woman who mentally abused everyone around her. BPD.

    My mother has chosen to stick with the BPD, and has discarded me.

    So why would I want to be around them?

    I would never go MGTOW, but I certainly understand.

  34. Hey “lurker” I have a novel concept. When you get all horny and shit? Jump your mans bones! I mean, if its all about getting the job done that should work.

    And sex once a week is OK/normal/good? ROFL. My idea of “good” is minimum 5 days a week. On the weekends I like to get twofers in, so we average about 6 romps a week, give or take a toss. And guess what? Neither my wife nor I suffer from “temptation” because my balls are empty, and her fuck tank is full.

    Of course, if your with a dude you find attractive, once a week maintenance sex wouldnt be an issue, but I’m sure you know that already…

  35. One of the things that Rollo discussed in the interview is internalization. To respond to things by who he is rather than trying to think of a red pill response to every interaction with women. Yeah, that’s a problem for me. Way too many times in my mind that thought comes to my head when interacting with women. It causes me to second guess everything I say or do especially if have any tinge of “niceness”. And yet, I’m not sure it really helped. It may have prevent me from being a doormat and being used, but… well… let me put it like this. I have a younger brother, so far I haven’t shown him Rollo’s work or any red pill stuff. And so far, he doing just fine – one can argue he could be doing better – but I’m not an example demonstrating that.

  36. I think a man needs to be his own man above all. He should at least consider or mentally confront the world of women. I don’t think he actually has to prove he’s a stud, bed X number of women, to do that.

    Face it, some men are never going to be all that sexy. In today’s world, when women are placing a high value on men’s sexiness, the men that can’t achieve sexiness easily or at all are going to have a tough time with women. So if a man can rarely or never get laid, what’s he to do?

    There certainly have been productive men through history who were celibate. Others had no descendants. PUAs are not having kids anyway, from a biological perspective their success is equal to an incel. Neither are passing their genes on.

  37. Dreamer, internalization and being a natural and having agency is a factor of Mastery. Agency is the capacity of an agent (a person) to act in any given environment.

    Mastery takes a while. So be patient. (Malcolm Gladwell’s “Outliers” threw out the number of 10,000 hours of passionate pursuit.)

    It helps if you have good role models or mentors. And it takes faith that what you are striving for is congruent with who you want to be.

  38. Patience requires time. I been around lurking around longer than you think – like reading posts in the SoSuave days. Back, I felt relief in stumbling on the information young and early – surely with such knowledge I would avoid falling to the same stumbles to the people. I’m read 10-20 years older than me. But as I go from way younger than the average reader to possibly the same age (though I thinker still younger than the average writer). But it seems Striver may have some truth for my experiences,

  39. @Striver

    “Face it, some men are never going to be all that sexy. In today’s world, when women are placing a high value on men’s sexiness, the men that can’t achieve sexiness easily or at all are going to have a tough time with women. So if a man can rarely or never get laid, what’s he to do?”

    In the interview there is some discussion about how utilizing the services of professionals is a way of bypassing this performance burden, and it’s appealing to men because if you invest X amount of money, you know it’s a straightforward transaction that eliminates a lot of the bullshit and flakiness guys go through to get women. It’s obvious that sex as a whole is becoming more commodified and transactional, so I never really understood the whole concept of “earning it” by chatting up random girls for hours on end with a high failure rate until one of them likes you for a little while until she thinks you were a drunken mistake the next morning.

    There was an article I think on Breitbart about MGTOW and I remember commenting that being “sexy” to women, learning cold approach style game, etc. is like having a second job because you have to invest so much time into it, and most guys realistically aren’t going to be able to pull it off. From a purely practical standpoint, you’re going to burn through all of your targets within a couple of months if you’re approaching at a high rate unless you live in the middle of a major city or move constantly. No one can keep that sort of thing up forever, and in today’s world the most you’re probably going to get out of that sort of thing is an occasional one night stand. Seems like a pretty bad deal to me…

  40. re: around 30 minutes into the interview, about isolationists:

    ————

    I’ve had to isolate myself from my friends because of their attitudes about women.

    e.g.: “I don’t need to get laid. It doesn’t matter. You’re just a loser if you think having sex means anything.”

    He’s also said things to me like “why don’t you go after women who aren’t retarded,” in reference to me saying I wanted to start looking for girls that were 18-22 or around that age, the implication being that older women are more mature and intelligent and younger women are vapid/shallow/stupid and a ‘waste of time.’

    I can’t deal with his judgmental attitude anymore. It’s ridiculous. But most guys see things the way he does, and I’ve given up on trying to talk about Game or RP at all with any of my current ‘friends.’

    BTW, that’s all coming from a guy who has never even kissed a girl before and has a tremendous porn collection, and thinks that porn is a perfectly fine substitute for women, and if you get into ‘pickup’ then you’re just a shallow, vapid scumbag, etc. Completely buys into the Save a Hoe mentality, relational equity, etc. (thinks that a girl will only leave a guy if he’s a scumbag and is abusive to her, things like that)

    Talking to him at all was just incredibly frustrating and felt like a waste of time. He was always like that but I didn’t catch on to how delusional he was until after TRP.

    My take on it is that guys like this are delusional. Even if they’re RP aware, denying your sexual urges is just insane to me.

    I’ve struggled my WHOLE LIFE with getting laid, and have only had a few hookups, and am still a virgin — but at least I’m honest about it. I’ve never had any reservations about acknowledging my sexual urges. Guys like that, again, just come off as delusional to me.

    I’ve actively been working on improving my appearance, and am taking steps to get over approach anxiety.

    But one of the biggest hindrances is spending time with guys who are complete Betas/completely delusional.

    I have ONE FRIEND who’s Alpha, who has gotten laid a LOT in his life, and NEVER had any reservations about pursuing women.

    We were out getting some stuff at the store last night, and ran into a really cute girl. My guess was she was 19-20. He opened for me and she was very forward and very receptive, but I didn’t follow through. Didn’t ask her if she wanted to go out that night, or try to get her number or anything. I was scared. Even though I was being playful and got her laughing, I didn’t escalate much with any eye contact or kino and I didn’t try to get her number or set up a date.

    As my friend’s said a million times, “The fish aren’t going to jump onto the boat.”

    After she walked away, he looks at me and goes, “Softek….?????? Hello? Come on! Holy shit!”

    He said if it’d been 20 years ago he would’ve had her no problem. And he still could have, but he was trying to help me out.

    He did say that when he was 16 years old, he had a pisser of a time. Got rejected about 5 times. Blew up the rejection myth IMO — he said he hasn’t dealt with much rejection and has slept with hundreds of women.

    He said his method is to make them come to him. It minimizes rejection, which he said he hates and has a hard time dealing with.

    But he also said he found some guys who were players back in the day and they showed him the ropes.

    So as a teen he got some education there and by 17 years old he pretty much had a solid handle on how it all worked.

    To this day, he’s the ONLY guy I have in my life who’s RP aware and knows how to pick up women.

    I’ve been picking his brain a little bit more lately. I’ve known him for years but it’s really only been the past few months that we’ve been talking about picking up women at all.

    But he completely gets it. No shame about his sexuality. No spiritual bullshit. Puts a high priority on getting laid and has zero qualms about pursuing that.

    I find that simply by spending time with him, it has a positive influence on me.

    I still have a lot of work to do, and he can’t save me, nor should he — but having my desire to get laid reinforced and encouraged seems to be helping.

    Whereas when I’m with my other friends, I can’t say anything about women or anything I’m doing without being judged. I’ve openly been criticized as being ‘shallow,’ scolded, judged, etc.

    So one of the hard parts of TRP for me is breaking off all my old relations with people.

    Guys that are simply in denial about their sexuality, and try to justify their lack of success with women by claiming a moral high ground. All while they’re whacking off to Internet porn in the meantime, but then denying that they actually want to fuck any of the women they masturbate to.

    It’s INSANE. I’ve only recently realized how delusional this kind of behavior is, simply because I’ve felt guilty for judging other people — ESPECIALLY my friends.

    Beta Isolationists are in the worst situation — no skills with women AT ALL, afraid of even flirting, very little to no experience with sex, and then convincing themselves that they’re isolating themselves because they’re morally superior to other guys.

    MGTOWs that don’t date or have anything to do with women at all and choose not to get laid are maybe a little better, but I still think they’re way off the mark.

    If you really had good skills with women, and the confidence that you could get laid if you went out and tried, why wouldn’t you?

    Would ANY man who had the skills and full knowledge that he could get laid choose NOT to get laid at all?

    How many times is one thing, e.g. if you’re okay getting laid once a week or a couple times a month, vs. going out every couple nights.

    But not at all?

    I’ve had to isolate myself not from women, but other MEN who are completely delusional about their sexuality, and completely in denial about it.

    It’s like poison. Even feeling the need to defend myself against guys like that is a waste of my time. I’m having enough of my own problems learning and applying Game to get laid —

    — the very last thing I’ll ever do is go down on the sinking ship with guys like that. You want to stand there and make some moralistic speech while you’re dying, good for you.

    I’m getting a lifeboat and getting the fuck out of there.

  41. @ tedd

    “And sex once a week is OK/normal/good? ROFL. My idea of “good” is minimum 5 days a week. On the weekends I like to get twofers in, so we average about 6 romps a week, give or take a toss. And guess what? Neither my wife nor I suffer from “temptation” because my balls are empty, and her fuck tank is full.”

    THAT’S what I’m talking about. Right on.

    I’ve been living small in my own mind. How much sex am I CAPABLE of having? A LOT. A real lot. Getting laid once a week would be a huge deal to a guy like me. But why let it stop there? Why ‘settle’ when it comes to my sexual urges?

    Honestly, I completely agree with you about ‘good.’ I’m not currently getting laid, but what would I honestly prefer? Is once a week ‘good’?

    Hell no. I’d say minimum 5 days a week as well. MINIMUM.

    I’ve lived a very impoverished life sexually speaking, but am coming out of it. I refuse to let my life continue like this. First step is being honest with myself and my urges. Why settle for less? Why not go for what I want?

    I can’t BELIEVE how delusional a lot of guys I talk to are when it comes to sex. I knew one guy who literally said he wouldn’t mind never having sex with his girlfriend ever again, for the rest of his life, it that meant making her happy.

    BTW, she’s the one that told me he said that. It wasn’t too long after that that I was asking her what position she’d want to be banged in now, lol. She said “bending over and getting hammered from behind.”

    Men in denial are on a sinking ship. And like I said before…my goal is to get a lifeboat and get the fuck out of there. Let them think they’re heroes while they try to stuff the skeletons of sexual frustration in their closet until the door breaks and everything topples them —

    — I don’t want to have anything to do with that.

    My thoughts on guys like that:

    “So useless, futility defined, watching you wait for the stars to align
    So clueless, so simple it should be a crime
    And I can’t bring myself to save you this time”

  42. @Striver & Vitriol:
    https://therationalmale.com/2012/01/09/services-rendered/

    Too many guys think that it’s a numbers games and they’re only as successful in proportion to the amount of effort they’re willing to invest with the largest pool of women.

    It’s not a numbers game based on volume, it’s a persistence game. Any guy can hit up every girl in a club and go through 30 or 40 approaches in a weekend and get rejected every time and go “oh well, fuck it, this Game shit doesn’t work since my ROI is around 1% for all the approaches I made.”

    That kind of volume is not only unviable for most men, but it’s ridiculously unrealistic to expect an average guy to sack up and take it to that extreme.

    I say that because it takes a consistency most men simply don’t have to make even one approach per week.I wouldn’t advise the average guy to attempt to make 100 approaches in a week; I’d advise they make one approach with a new girl per week for one year, while remaining non-exclusive and staying out of a “sniper mentality” that would preoccupy themselves with any one girl.

    52 approaches in one year is more approaches than most men do in a lifetime. Game is about consistency, not volume.

  43. Also, not done listening to the interview yet, but great job. This is the best interview to date by a wide margin, IMO.

    Reminds me of a discussion I was having about Game the other day with a friend. Guys that aren’t in the know have the opinion that Game is for guys that ‘want to be macho, proving that they can sleep with a lot of women, look how hot I am, look how popular I am and how much better I am than other guys,’ etc…

    …(sigh)….

    …I think I might’ve gotten through to him a little bit, because I said I disagreed with that, and saw things as the opposite. And that Game wasn’t about manipulation but just having a good time with women, and having sex as a normal, healthy part of your lifestyle.

    I also made the point that options are the kingpin: if you CAN get laid, and know you can, and it’s a real option for you, then choosing not to get laid is OK.

    But if you CAN’T get laid, and you know you can’t, and it isn’t a real option for you, then ‘choosing’ not to get laid isn’t really choosing not to get laid. It’s giving up. It’s being in denial. It’s being delusional.

    All I hear when they try to make their case for why they think they don’t need to get laid is “Blah blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah blah…..”

    …all while I’m looking over at a girl passing by, and knowing that if she went up to this guy and said, “Hey, you’re hot, meet me in the back, I want to give you a blowjob,” they’d be out of my sight faster than I could say Timbuktu.

  44. @ Rollo

    Good advice on approaching. As a guy who’s just starting out with that, that’s very encouraging. Some of the PUA stuff I’ve been reading is like “You think a couple approaches a night is a lot? That’s a joke. You need to be making at least 100 approaches a week,”

    ….or something like that. Which kind of turned me off because it makes it feel like the bar for success is too insanely high to ever hope of reaching. Especially for a guy like me who’s new to Game and wanting to start applying this stuff in-field.

    I did get a couple hookups, literally same night, no-strings attached sex, but hearing that I need to be approaching hundreds of women just made me write off those successes as failures, or not worth mentioning, and has led to me undermining what I already know about Game and have actively applied in ways that led directly to sex.

    I’ve done it. I’ve already proved that I’ve learned enough Game to get laid. It’s just stuff like that that makes me feel like a failure again. I need to get that out of my head and stop letting it shake my confidence so much.

    Building a house is too overwhelming. But laying one brick down at a time? Anyone can learn how to do that.

  45. @SJF
    I’ll build on your comment about FI-defined traits for masculinity; only men can define what masculinity is. Full stop.

    We own the equipment, live with the male mindset, and see the world through male eyes. How any woman can tell a man to his face what “really” defines a man is just plain arrogance of the highest order. It’s “women-splaining” and don’t give it a second’s consideration.

    @ Sun Wukong
    Saw that “mood flip” so many times myself; the clinical ruthlessness with which you’re cut off after the cotton to you not playing their game never fails to surprise and amuse.

    And think there’s a HUGE difference between enlightened self-interest and a MGTOW mindset. I don’t know where that shading line sits, but the latter strikes me as a self-imposed monkhood that suffers from a lack of feminine engagement and presence. And I think it’s far better to constantly engage, fail and try again with women and improve your skill set, that to run the other way towards a mental/social/physical celibacy. I may be mis-understanding the MGTOW concept, but in my mind, it’s intersexual sour grapes.

    I don’t have the kind of background to contemplate that kind of exclusion, but I guess to someone that traumatized, it may be the only way for them to cope. Sounds bleak, though.

  46. @Softek
    “Guys that are simply in denial about their sexuality, and try to justify their lack of success with women by claiming a moral high ground.”

    That’s the definitive version of my old self.

    “Beta Isolationists are in the worst situation — no skills with women AT ALL, afraid of even flirting, very little to no experience with sex, and then convincing themselves that they’re isolating themselves because they’re morally superior to other guys.”

    That’s hard to be around and most guys who are good with women don’t wanna hang around that ether least by observation.

    “You want to stand there and make some moralistic speech while you’re dying, good for you.

    I’m getting a lifeboat and getting the fuck out of there.”

    At this point that more than reasonable. 2015 USA

    “and having sex as a normal, healthy part of your lifestyle.”

    Never got that impression growing up. Lots of shame self hate (own imposition) anxiety and death and some intense moments of erotic violence that had the words “love” spoken afterward.

    As far as building a house. When I build I think of the long term. An stone the environment and how things can go wrong faster without taking into account natures inability to care about your creation. Rocks not sand.

    @Rollo
    “I say that because it takes a consistency most men simply don’t have to make even one approach per week.I wouldn’t advise the average guy to attempt to make 100 approaches in a week; I’d advise they make one approach with a new girl per week for one year, while remaining non-exclusive and staying out of a “sniper mentality” that would preoccupy themselves with any one girl.”

    I try one a day. The rejection and buffers are still hard to get over. But it’s a hell of a good day no matter what.

    “Game is about consistency, not volume.”
    That’s a good game of rugby.

  47. “But if you CAN’T get laid, and you know you can’t, and it isn’t a real option for you, then ‘choosing’ not to get laid isn’t really choosing not to get laid.”

    Gandhi made the point that the weak cannot be non-violent. The “non-violence” of the weak is really just helplessness. If you wish to adopt the non-violent philosophy, the first thing you need to do is make yourself strong.

    If you desire peace, prepare for war.

  48. @Rollo Tomassi
    I have a question Rollo. I’ve heard pick up artists say that for every 20-40 girls they approach, they get one girl to say yes. So if a man does 50 approaches in a year, doesn’t that mean he will only get one girl a year? Fuck! That’s not good.
    I read a site called goodlooking loser and he says we should approach almost 100 girls to get one lay.

  49. Havok, how many guys do you know who do 10 approaches a year?

    How many guys do you know who do 1 or 2 and then fixate on a particular girl, buy into her filibustering and / or LJBF schema with the first one to give them even a hint of interest?

    Who’s to say that the volume of approaches that PUA is making isn’t causing him to be less successful than making 1 or 2 solid approaches per weekend?

    Approaches and Game don’t happen in a vacuum. It’s not a formula to be repeated until you get a hit, it’s an art, and to get good at art takes consistency.

  50. Havoc: Did you see the piece in the thread of the previous article where a woman was talking about what she’s like in her ovulatory phase?

    What if you could identify women in that state and concentrate your efforts on them? A good tactician wins the battles because he understands the field of combat and only engages when the odds are substantially in his favor.

    You don’t have to play fair.

    Approaching also need not be as big a deal as some make it out to be. There are environments where you can approach 100 women a day, without any particular effort. Simply making a remark about the weather to a girl you pass in the street is a type of approach.

    No, it isn’t likely to have an immediate yield, you may never even see her again, but it’s like putting out bait where you are going to set a snare in the future. It builds comfort in a large population which you can take advantage of later.

  51. @Mikephil
    “but I guess to someone that traumatized, it may be the only way for them to cope. Sounds bleak, though.”

    It’s giving in which is giving up. I can’t change the past but I can keep doing better one step at a time.

    “Agent Jones: Only human.”

    “Morpheus: Welcome to the real world.”

    The red pill (counter Trauma I wish you more than luck)
    https://m.soundcloud.com/wholesum/this-is-water-by-david-foster

    @Rollo
    “It’s not a formula to be repeated until you get a hit, it’s an art, and to get good at art takes consistency.”

    That’s something I did last evening went out an approaching people. I got a lot of work to do. Seining my out in the city however is encouraging.

  52. “Sex is the glue that holds relationships together.”

    this, and…

    you do not truly know a woman until you fuck her. a lot.

    and she doesn’t truly know herself until you fuck her. a lot.

    “You’re just a loser if you think having sex means anything.”

    this is where the problem originates. guys think sex is something that you have/do.

    no.

    sex is something that you are.

    people are verbs. I am fuck.

  53. re: approaches

    Echoing what Rollo said:

    The idea of “make them come to you” rings very true here. When you pursue women that you know are interested in you by them giving off IOI’s (e.g. some sustained eye contact, checking you out, them acting a little nervous/shy, laughing at your jokes, if she approaches you instead of you approaching her, etc.)

    — your success rate will be much higher. If you’re just cold approaching completely random women your rejection rate is going to be a lot higher.

    The one friend I have IRL, who I see all the time, has opened my eyes quite a bit to this.

    He’s compared Game to fishing. “The fish aren’t going to jump onto the boat.” You have to cast your line out there and reel them in.

    But at the same time, he’s told me repeatedly, “Make them come to you.” He calls it “setting the hook,” in line with the fishing metaphor.

    I asked him how often women approached him, compared to him approaching them. He said women approached him about 80% of the time. That really surprised me. He just told me that yesterday.

    He also said that in order for that to happen, you have to look different.

    He’s slept with hundreds of women. I asked him how many times he got rejected, and he said not that much — almost never. He recalled when he was 16 years old and had no skills with women, and got turned down by about 5 of them that year. He had no confidence and said he’d just say shit like “Hey, how’s it going….” then run out of things to say and not know what to do.

    As for calling it “approaching,” I don’t know how I feel about that. My friend said you want to make them come to you. And “approaching” just sounds unnatural to me. I guess you could call what I’ve done “approaching,” but it was more just picking up on IOI’s and letting things run their course after that.

    One time I just directly asked this girl if she wanted to come over and hook up with me that night, and she did. All the ‘gaming’ I did was saying I was a virgin, and frustrated, and she suggest I go out and start playing music, that I could meet girls that way….

    …then I just texted back, “Well, what about you?” And she pauses, then goes “what do you mean?” And I flat out asked her if she’d be interested in hooking up sometime. It took a little persuasion on my part to push for that night, but 20 minutes later she was on the floor in my room with her pants off and moaning while I was making out with her and fingering her.

    Did I ‘approach’? I don’t know. I don’t think of it like that.

    Even before I hooked up with that girl, I knew she was into me. She never outright said it. But I’d seen the way she looked at me and she also immediately responded to text messages. Girls not responding to messages is a big red flag. Immediate responses are usually a green light. Ding ding ding.

    Picking up on IOI’s is probably the most important thing, IMO. Then comes the ‘approach’ after you’ve effectively gotten the ‘green light.’ If you catch a girl staring you in the eye, checking you out, or if she comes up and approaches you, responds to your texts immediately — ding ding ding.

    You have to have confidence to be aware when a girl likes you. Back in the day I got plenty of IOI’s, but I didn’t think they were directed at me. I had such low self esteem I thought it was impossible for women to be attracted to me, so I ignored all the IOI’s, much less did anything about them.

    If you keep up a good appearance, and make yourself look different from other guys, which isn’t hard to do as most guys dress like average slobs, have bad posture and have no interesting accessories anywhere on their body —

    — I’d just look for IOI’s, and capitalize on those, instead of just relying on cold approaching as a ‘numbers game.’

    Quality over quantity. If you have shitty Game, and after 100 approaches you haven’t improved your Game at all…well, that’s kind of pointless. Fucking up one approach and making careful notes and revising your behavior is much more effective than running the same shitty routine a bunch of times and hoping it’ll work on one girl.

    I want to fuck the girls that want to fuck me. I haven’t had much sexual experience, but I will say that every sexual experience I’ve had has involved intense desire from the girl. Every time I’ve gotten a blowjob, the girl swallowed. And I always got lots of compliments, and the girls always got off.

    Is it because I’m some kind of major stud? Or is it because I was focusing on girls that I knew were interested in me by scanning for IOI’s and capitalizing on them instead of just doing cold approaches?

    Could I have success doing cold approaches? Maybe. But for me the main issue is capitalizing on IOI’s — if you catch a girl looking at you and showing interest, you have to have the balls to do something about it.

    Is that ‘approaching’? Sure. You could call it that. But I like to think of it like reciprocating interest. I can tell this girl likes me already, so I’m just playing along with that. Like an “hey, I like you too” kind of thing.

    You have to like yourself enough to acknowledge that women will show interest in you. Then it’s just a game. The girl probably won’t say it outright — but if she’s showing interest through her actions, e.g. subtle cues like body language and eye contact, demeanor….you’re in. That’s what I believe, anyway.

    It’s not an easy task to capitalize on IOI’s. It does take some balls. Eye contact is great, but if you just look at a girl and are too afraid to go up to her and say something, or if you go up and say “Hey, what’s up….” and then you’re out of material….that’s not good.

    But it’s playful. I think it’s important to remember you and her are both in it just to have some fun. Don’t take it too seriously. There’ll be plenty more girls in the future.

    The only times I’ve seriously fucked up was when I got nervous. I was playing guitar at a party and the hottest girl there came up to me. She approached me — just like you want them to do.

    She asked me if I knew how to play this one song. I didn’t. She kept talking. I could tell she was looking right at me and was being kinda forward. I didn’t look back though. I was nervous. I choked. I didn’t make eye contact. I wasn’t relaxed. No jokes. No playfulness. Just straightforward “Oh yeah, I’ve been playing for x amount of years, I really like this style, I love playing stuff like that.” I said “No, I don’t know that song. Who wrote it?” and had nothing after that. Nothing to say. Nothing to add.

    And I can remember that choking feeling. That’s the real enemy. The only thing that gets my mind off of that is remembering you want to fuck this girl. You’re attracted to her. You want to have fun with her.

    Sexual attraction. Fun. Good times. Playful. Just repeat that in your head endlessly whenever you think of women. You want to associate women with all of those things. Sexual attraction. Fun. Good times. Playful. That’s what you’re in it for, after all.

    Once this becomes your default attitude, things should go more smoothly. I’m still working on this myself. Choking is a horrible feeling. But I think that only really happens when self-esteem issues are revealed — you’re intimidated by hot girls because deep down you still feel like they’re out of your league.

    Solution? She’s a woman, right? Remember your take on women and how you interact with them? Sexual attraction. Fun. Good times. Playful. Oh, right, she’s the same as the rest. You can have just as much fun with her as every other woman on the planet. What were you worried about? Nevermind, it’s not important.

    It’s easy to have fun when you’re not worried about how to have fun. When you stop and think “What is fun?” that’s when you choke. When you’re not thinking about stuff like that is when it just happens naturally.

    Anyway, those are some preliminary thoughts from my limited experiences, and talking to my friend, who has a LOT of experience. Once I get a real handle on this shit I would love to write more and contribute and help other guys get out of the situation like the one I was in for so long. I was sure there was no hope for me at all. I was wrong.

  54. “people are verbs. I am fuck.”

    Now there is something I have an objection to in currently popular MGTOW philosophy. They point out that only women are human beings, that men are human doings. They resent the burden of performance and wish to have the same social “respect” that is given to women, just for existing.

    But if you are not a human doing, you are a vegetable.

    They are on the right track not when they deserve more respect for men, but when they demand less for women.

    And, as Jack Donovan points out, a point which used to be taken for granted, men chiefly need respect from other men.

  55. Its one thing to define masculinity. It’s another thing to be better at being a masculine male that is admired and respected by others esp. in inter-sexual relationships.

    Keeping Frame and striving for masculine self-improvement does not equal having power or Mastery (……Just ask Softek……..)

    Striver and Vitriol seem to be expressing in comments here their difficulty of “Getting Through the Stages.”

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/07/25/the-5-stages-of-unplugging/

    “1. Denial – Still Plugged -In: “These game guys are a bunch of clowns, there’s no way this works on women. Women aren’t stupid. What a bunch of misogynists.”

    2. Anger – Post-Red Pill: “This is ridiculous! Why should I have to jump through all these hoops for women? I just want to be myself. Why couldn’t I have been a Natural Alpha®? I blame my parents/siblings/teachers/God/liberals/feminists/media/society, maybe George Sodini, Andres Breivik, James Holmes wasn’t so crazy after all.”

    3. Bargaining – Unplugged: “Well maybe it does have some good points…but, forget the hot girls, they’re way outta my league. I’ll give it a try if it can help me get around the bases with a plain Jane. Do I have to wear the fuzzy hat and black nail polish?”

    4. Depression – Bitter Taste of the Red Pill: “Wow, women really respond to this puffed-up act? And guys spend big bucks on it and wind up with more ass than a toilet seat? And I just joined up for this? The world is sad and so am I…”

    5. Acceptance – Game Awareness: “Maybe this IS the way things really work. I guess I should give up the gender relations mythology I’ve been holding onto…hey, what do you think of these negs I came up with?”

    6. Jaded* – MGTOW Permutations: “Fuck learning all these rules. Sex isn’t worth it and women aren’t that fun anyway. The last thing I want to do is learn routines or the 5 stages of pickup. There’s too many websites, too much to read, I can’t remember it all much less sort it all out. Who has all that time to go out and chat up women anyway? It’s not like I see any women under 40 at work at my engineering job to practice on. Video games and porn are more fun and more available. I just haffta look good and let the women come to me””

    Also from “Truth to Power”

    “When we allow our thinking, our personality disorders and our mental schemas, combined with their accompanying behaviors, to determine the course of our decisions, we relinquish real Power. The man who succumbs, by force or by will, to the responsibilities, liabilities and accountabilities that are required of him by society, marriage, commitment, family, fatherhood, career choice, etc. leaves him very little influence over the course of his own life.”

    A free masculine male is a man who cannot be squeezed into doing something he would otherwise never do. A powerful man is one that can control the outcome of his efforts.

    We should all strive for both freedom and power. Freedom without power leads to a possible denial/lack of what we, masculine men, all need–easy, low cost and regular supply of good pussy.

  56. @ Rollo

    “Approaches and Game don’t happen in a vacuum. It’s not a formula to be repeated until you get a hit, it’s an art, and to get good at art takes consistency.”

    There it is.

    As far as art goes, too, understanding your subject is important. This is not a Game/PUA blog, but reading RM has helped my interactions with women a LOT.

    You stop doing shit with women that doesn’t make sense once you understand how they operate.

    Blue Pill/Beta “Game,” after all, is based on a FALSE premise of how women work, and what turns them on. Alpha “Game” is still Game just the same — it’s just based on the TRUE premise of how women work and what turns them on.

    Not that Alphas give a fuck about any of this bullshit. After all, they don’t actually have “Game” or know about “The Red Pill” — they don’t spend time thinking about women or what to do with them. They “just get it.”

    😉

    No different from playing guitar. You think about it constantly and struggle and practice a lot in the initial stages. Next thing you know you can play in a pitch black room and not miss a note, and not even think for a second about what you’re doing or how you’re doing it.

  57. The last time I approached a woman, I was 26, I’m 33 now.

    Isolation isn’t a bad thing. It takes a certain type of person to be ok with it and strive. Like most things, it isn’t for everyone.

    If I see a cute chick and have the choice of talking to her or not, why am I “less of a man/not living life to the fullest” when I pass on the opportunity?

    Talking to a random stranger, be it man or woman, isn’t on my to do list on my daily outings. It’s my time, my life and only I get to choose how to spend it.

    Your path is yours to walk, no one elses.

  58. Softek – understand something. Before I found the sphere I spent about 6 years of a 12 year marriage sexless. Clinically sexless by definition in fact.

    When I found myself looking at a second marriage, I made it perfectly clear that I view sex as THE important facet of my marriage. Not in an overt “fuck me or I’ll leave” way. I just made sex a priority in our relationship from day 1. And not to brag, but the truth is we average 5-6 romps a week. I always go for twofers on the weekends. The best part is when we hit a slump (and everyone does) my wife is just as concerned if not more so than I am. We’ve been together 5+ years and our longest no sex stretch is 3 days.

    One of the reasons I post less online is I have very little to complain about. For me being here is about keeping my chops sharp and my head in the game. And occasionally helping a brother out. 😉

  59. @Havok
    Another way to look at it: learning game is like learning music: playing jazz clarinet, say. You get exercises, you learn the mechanics: how to play scales, how to read the melody, practicing arpeggios, etc. But to get somewhere with it, you actually have to start PLAYING.

    No you don’t get the Birdland gig your first time out. Maybe not for some time. You can’t base success on how long it takes for you to start getting paid to play, or how much you get per gig as you get started.

    You keep at it, by keeping at it you get better, keep developing a technique. And eventually, your style. You learn by doing: how to place a fast run here, a smooth legato part there, hell even knowing when NOT to play: using short silences as a part of your rhythm. This is how you develop your own style for doing approaches. You can always learn “tricks” or shortcuts from others, but you adapt them to what works for you.

    The point being: all of this only you can do, over time, with or without a teacher, coach or mentor. But if you get up on a bandstand and all you can play are the scale exercises, or the basic melody. you’ve learned NOTHING except those mechanics. Which aren’t enough. Just like so-called PUA “techniques” are never enough.

  60. “Your path is yours to walk, no one elses.”

    On a path I ride daily there are others walking and riding it. I am required to make approaches by natural law, because I am the fastest motherfucker on the path and need them to get the hell out of my way for my own safety.

  61. Burroughs stayed out of my way quite well. When he was in Mexico, I was in NY. When I was in NY, he was in Mexico.

    Not all of his “crowd” were quite so accommodating. I did rather like Dave Amram though.

  62. @LonePlanet, read these two posts:

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/07/15/separating-values/

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/07/23/case-study-low-expectations/

    You are making the common feminine conflation of personal worth and your own SMV.

    I don’t think you’re “less of a man” because of your choice not to engage with women. I do however understand that you have retarded your personal experience with women for the past 7 years.

    There are a majority of 33 y.o. men right now who have learned things about women by engaging them since they were 26 that you, by choice or necessity, have not.

    Those are the simple facts. As to whether that makes you a better or worse off man today, I can’t say. What I do know is that you lack a common experience with women that most men for centuries have had to some degree.

    I don’t know what it’s like to live as a quadraplegic, but I do know that most of them don not live the same life experiences as the vast majority of humanity do. That doesn’t make them less of men, but it does make their life experience vastly different from the common human experience.

    Now the operative question is why haven’t you approached a woman for the last 7 years? Do you realize that this decision has limited you from the experience of interacting intimately with women at a time in your life that you will never have the opportunity for again?

  63. “Do you realize that this decision has limited you from the experience . . .”

    Whatever experience you are having right now is limiting you from other experiences. You cannot escape the burden of choice of performance.

    When people first asked me if the things I have done were worth the sacrifices, I didn’t understand that the hell they were talking about. I did what I did because it was what I wanted to be doing. Not doing it in order to have the experiences they apparently wanted me to have had would have been the sacrifice.

    I haven’t the slightest interest in being average.

  64. Tedd,

    “One of the reasons I post less online is I have very little to complain about. For me being here is about keeping my chops sharp and my head in the game. And occasionally helping a brother out.”

    I have come to join your club in the last two months. Prior to two months ago my pressure of speech was embarrassing me. I’m really in a good place with my situation now thanks to TRM and Rollo.

  65. “Now the operative question is why haven’t you approached a woman for the last 7 years? Do you realize that this decision has limited you from the experience of interacting intimately with women at a time in your life that you will never have the opportunity for again?”

    I am an artist, baker, & musician. I have created businesses in all three. That’s what I’ve been doing for the past 7 years.

    Interacting with women has become an afterthought. I put 100% of myself into these creations. Blood, sweat & years. There isn’t any room for the “fairer” sex.

  66. Great interview, best one so far, Niko is an excellent host.

    The passage relating to strippers and McLuhan’s ‘the medium is he message’ was particularly enlightening, never thought to extrapolate it to that forum.

    I’ve always had the inclination strip joints were sad places and the interview reinforced that opinion. Men will pay for simulated faux female intimacy, the fact that the stripper is conveying it to multiple men simultaneously just shows the depths of the male desire for female intimacy.

    It’s such a vast topic and sadly McLuhan died before the internet age, I would love to have heard his take on ‘the medium is the message’ relating to smart phones, social media, porn and online dating.

    Niko’s question as to where this is all heading remained relatively unanswered.

    From my perspective it seems the further female advancement goes the more the FI will try to restrict the male capacity to have an effect on partner choice. It seems the FI wants to contain the feminine susceptibility to male proactiveness and curtail male participation in partner choice.

    The FI is effectively making female choice (both positive and negative) sacrosanct and wants partner choice to remain solely contained within the feminine purview.

    Something like Tinder is effectively a male pageant, the male’s physical capacity to affect the sexual dynamic is completely removed and he is effectively presenting himself to be chosen.

    Fat acceptance, YMY and the such just shows how far the FI will go to ensure the primacy of female choice.

  67. @SJF
    “A free masculine male is a man who cannot be squeezed into doing something he would otherwise never do. A powerful man is one that can control the outcome of his efforts.”

    In rugby today we went over some things.

    Obstacle = opportunity

    Grow mindset- intelligence and talent can go up and down.

    Add YET

    Fixed mindset- intelligence and talent are fixed at birth

    Your not a finished product

    Lose/interpretation/perspective determine Attitude

    Bounce forward

    30% positive words in dictionary
    20% neutral and 50% negative

    Accept thoughts without judgement

    Useful self talk

    Take action win the moment.

    Glad to be here

    @The Lone Planet
    “I am an artist, baker, & musician. I have created businesses in all three. That’s what I’ve been doing for the past 7 years.”

    That’s a hell of a lot of cool work. I love baking things. What kind of art what do you bake what do you play?

    @Matt
    [audio src="http://www.listentoyoutube.com/download.php?server=srv71&hash=4pSbbGpmnWhrZLWr2NmaabVhnGVtbG9onZqTtIWZ26aZoY2nv9LYrK6SzQ%3D%3D&file=Interview%20with%20Rollo%20Tomassi.mp3" /]

  68. Hey, just listened to the whole interview over my friend’s place. He’s the first and only friend I’ve shared this stuff with and was receptive to it, aside from the natural Alpha I’ve mentioned so much.

    That was pretty cool.

    The part about being deprived of a natural human experience scared the shit out of me. I’ve known that ever since I was 14 and really got into girls, and was desperate to be with them, but never had any experiences. So it wasn’t a ‘startle’ scare, but just a reminder of how serious my situation is, and how imperative it is that I fix it ASAP.

    In my early 20’s I had some experiences. The last being on New Year’s. So at least I do know what it’s like. And I have the perspective of having been a complete incel up to that point. Had never even hugged a girl or held hands. So to go from that to making out and getting a blowjob was a pretty huge shift for me. Very huge. Indescribable, actually.

    I remember the first time I made out with a girl, and she went down on me. It was like going from watching TV in black and white to full color HD.

    I always felt like there was a void in my life. And contrary to popular belief, I believe that sex fills that void. And that it’s the only thing that can fill that void.

    We need to eat every day. We need to drink every day. Sex isn’t the same kind of need as food and water, but it’s still a need.

    Thinking back on the sexual experiences I have had, compared to when I had none at all — I’m much happier for having them.

    The pushing I’ve done already to get some sex, and the success I’ve had with that in the past, has gone a very long way for me. I honestly feel like it was a missing piece in my life and actually contributed a lot to the greater emotional stability I have these days.

    When I start freaking out, I think back to some times I had some great sexual experiences and it pulls me out of it. Maybe that’s just me. But I have a feeling it’s much more than that. I am human, after all. I’m not unique.

    —————————————-

    From the book “Touching” by Ashley Montagu:

    “One of the best ways of discovering whether or not a particular kind of experience is necessary or basic to any particular species and its members, is to determine how widely distributed it is in the class of animals (in the present instance, the mammals) to which the species under investigation belongs; what is phylogenetically basic is likely to be physiologically significant, and significant perhaps in other functional respects as well.

    The specific question to which we seek an answer is: Must the member of the species Homo sapiens undergo, in the course of development, certain kinds of tactile experiences in order to develop as a healthy human being? If such experiences are necessary, of what kind are they?

    —————————————-

    On the less philosophical end, loneliness is probably a biological urge to interact with people. It isn’t healthy to be isolated, and loneliness is our body’s way of pushing us to get out into the world and connect — socially and sexually.

  69. @ rugby11ljh

    Thanks.

    Art:
    Logo design, painting, graffiti art.

    Baking:
    Cakes mostly.

    Music:
    Hip Hop beats/production (not that lil wayne sounding crap, more like Madlib, DJ Premier, Aesop Rock). I also play a little bass, guitar & piano, not well, but enough to get the job done.

  70. “We’re only screwing ourselves by thinking that we’re in some way above sexuality in some lame self-delusion that in stating so will make us more desirable and set us apart from the rest of the herd (who are also claiming to be above sex anyway).”

    So, you’re standing across from the 300, who are about to make their way to the pass at Thermopylae. You remind them that they’re only screwing themselves by denying their desire to continue living. Their belief that it would be more honorable to die in defense of their city than live in cowardice and supplication is just foolish.

    A manhood that doesn’t recognize any imperative greater than the biological ones is no manhood at all.

    Don’t get me wrong — sex is a biological necessity for men. Not having it is like starving. That is why I, a successful man with tons of important things to do, keep coming to this blog and others like it — I can’t stop thinking about my failures in this regard, no matter what I do. But self-mastery is the highest quality of a man — the ability to subordinate our lower desires to our higher desires, whatever those may be.

  71. Reading people’s comments on MGTOW attitudes makes me extremely frustrated and uncomfortable.

    That’s how I know they are probably on to something. Sigh.

    I have years of insecurity and inadequacy built up that come out every single time a girl looks in my direction. That’s the honest truth. I remembered that when hearing the guy’s story above about the hottest girl in the room coming up to him after a concert. I know I would simply wither under those circumstances, for exactly the reason he said — I just don’t believe that I deserve a girl like that. And I know that from experience, because girls like that don’t, in fact, come up to me and never have. We just exist in parallel zones.

    And, unfortunately, nothing succeeds like success — and nothing fails like failure. I periodically get out there, but with nothing but bad results. At least, not in the past 4-5 years. Over and over I’ve built up the courage to get out there and do something, and something will go amazingly right and I’ll be happy and excited. Then it will go wrong, and the downside will be 10 times as bad as the upside.

    I go out with some of my close friends. One of them I used to go out with a fair amount because we were both single at the same time. Tall, white, and — well, that’s all that seems to matter. The guy is awkward as fuck, much more than I am. His come-ons are even pretty bad. But it all still works, almost magically. I went out night after night with this dude and girls would simply gravitate to him. Meanwhile my best efforts came to naught. We went out together, but I would take the train home alone.

    That’s not exactly a confidence builder, folks. That’s pretty much the opposite of a confidence builder. I’m not even that bad, I know it. Probably a 6-7 in terms of sheer looks, usually very fit, dress very well. I’m not bad – I’m just not good enough. That was the last time I went out with any regularity. I made the calculation, based on experience, that it is simply a waste of my time.

    In every other area of life I excel. And when I don’t, I put in the brutal amounts of effort that it takes to get there. And I am always rewarded. That is not true in this world. Why shouldn’t I just accept that I’m just not going to do that well? I’m not pretending not to want sex etc. But what does it matter that I want something, when I can’t have it? I don’t like pouring time and effort into a losing battle. I like doing the things that I’m good at and that I get proportional return on. There are tons of things I love to do and that I am exceptionally good at. Why don’t those things deserve my attention more?

  72. I wonder if Rollo realizes how much of an impact his writings have on the MGTOW community, and how describing the reality of alpha fucks/beta bucks, hypergamy, The Wall, etc, lead to the “juice is not the squeeze” mentality. I do believe isolationism is probably dangerous, but MGTOW need not mean isolationism and giving up on life, IMO. It need not even mean giving up on women and the pleasures of their company, but it does mean giving up being a romantic.

    Thing is that I believe a great deal of men have a hard time giving up romanticism and idealized love, so they find it easier to contemplate just giving up on women all together. I find myself instinctually and automatically assuming a beta-romantic pose every time there’s a bit of sexual tension. It’s as if my body and mind want to betray the real “me” that’s conscious of the troubles and burdens that can happen to someone of that mentality (that happened and continue to happen to my father, whom I take after in personality and characteristics) just to get me to procreate and get exploited by a female. A possibility is to be open to relationships with women but being as cynical as possible, but the whole initiation process (approaching/hitting on the chick etc) brings out the beta-romantic in me and sets my tone and frame such that I can’t help but be disgusted by myself and more inclined to the “forget women” mentality.

    IMO there’s far more to life as a male than the malodorous slit between women’s legs and I find myself looking forward to the future even if I don’t always imagine a family life.

    PS

    I’m a Somali immigrant to the U.S, so our women are somewhat more conservative, nonetheless, my mother was conservative too and I don’t want in the least to be the simpering beta longing for his wife’s love/approval/affection that my dad was during their relationship. And it’s hard to talk about this because I love those people, but still:

    AWALT.

    –Gurney Halleck

  73. @Lucien, don’t LARP here.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/28/humanism-behaviorism-and-the-amorality-of-game/

    Every vice you can point a negative finger at operates in precisely in this dynamic. Our morality, our intelligence, our sexuality and the behaviors that are manifested by them are all motivated by this base. It would be a pleasant fiction if we could all remove our consciousness from this and be these enlightened, self-actualized beings, constantly operating in a state of peak experience, but this damn testosterone in my body keeps pulling me back down to earth. It may be morally reprehensible for a woman to break her marriage commitment, divorce her husband and remarry a rich entrepreneur, but from a behavioral perspective it makes long term pragmatic sense.

    The problem that moral relativism poses to the humanist approach isn’t so much in recognizing this primitive base motivation, but an unwillingness to embrace it and live with it and use it.

    I want to run, I want to fuck and I want to fight – I want to feel the blood, testosterone and adrenaline pumping in my arteries. I also want to write a sonata, paint a masterpiece and be a loving father to my daughter.

    Behaviorism is the antithesis of putting angels wings on our backs and claiming we’ve evolved ‘above all of that.’ I haven’t, you haven’t and no one has, and our behaviors will make hypocrites of us whenever condition and opportunity facilitate it for us. It’s not that behaviorism would have us all living like animals in the bush as an ideal state, nor does it deny that people have very ennobling qualities; it simply accepts the whole of what prompts us to do what, why & how we do things and explores the reasons why in a far more fundamental way than a romanticized humanism. I’m sure this is akin to atheism for people invested into humanism, but nothing could be further from the truth. It’s simply a more pragmatic, efficient and realistic approach for explaining behavior.

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/03/23/moral-to-the-manosphere/

    If you choose to derive your personal value from some esoteric sense of what sex ‘should’ mean, more power to you, but I find it’s a much healthier position to accept a balance between our carnal natures and our higher aspirations. It’s not one or the other. It’s OK to want to fuck just for the sake of fucking – it doesn’t have to be some source of existential meaning. If you think it means something more, then that’s your own subjective perspective – even in marriage there’s ‘maintenance sex’ and there’s memorable, significant sex – but it’s a mistake to think that the totality of the physical act must be of some cosmic significance.

    It is as equally unhealthy to convince oneself that self-repressions are virtues as it is to think that unfettered indulgences are freedoms. There is a balance.

  74. I think I will post here rather than the current latest post. As while related, the topic fits better the current flow here.

    Taking from somedudebro’s post. Rollo Tomassi – intentional or not – does give a sense of giving up. Rollo Tomassi have strongly insisted that he does not advocate giving up, but the points made does give a sense. For a while I stop reading here because all I feel when I read here many times is giving up.

    I put it like this, I think a major aspect when interacting with people means having some level of believing there’s a “good” to those we interact with. Semantics if “Good” is actually neutral or how things are or whatever – basically it remains not very motivational if we view any girl interacting with calculating if she should use you and screw you over or not.

    And despite some comments and posts say it’s not about that. Between discussions of AWALT, Hypergamy, Beta Bucks, and perhaps some other stuff, it doesn’t feel motivational. Take what’s is sensed in the comments of the current post – How does one feel like motivated to keep going approaching a new girl when one of the comments tells about how the younger international girl fucking the Alphas while hiding it and acting all pure to the orbiters while the older ones interviewing giving dates a job interview? Especially if one takes one of the other comments and apply that with AWALT.

    Boom. MGTOW. I post before my comprehension along with the feedback above doesn’t say that. That AWALT is talking about the shared motivators and buttons and not every girl would screw you over or use you up as a BB. But it remains one Aesop one can take reading is that sense of hopelessness.

  75. It took me a bit to figure what you mean when post that link as a response to mine. Correct me if I misunderstood you, you are reading that I am demotivated of losing a blue pill type of hope. Maybe. But I guess I have ask you, for in my mind I think the hopeless feel is hopeless a red pill type of contentment. Or at least I think it’s red pill.

    In the link, one of the lines you said is women can and do love men deeply. Your context around that line was talking about the blue pill mistake viewing both sides having the same concept. But don’t think I am vexing on that blue pill concept… or basically the conflict have having to give and rewrite to new paradigms.

    I’ll use the second part follow in that link in trying to explain – the Hobbes’s quote. That the conclusive thought is to stop trying to achieve for blue-pill goal state, and focus on one’s own life, talent, and ambition.

    But that part reminds me of two things. One is YaReally’s post https://therationalmale.com/2015/08/11/post-selection/#comment-114072 where plenty of guys have already spent a lifetime focus on – in that post “purposes outside of women” and with yours “times he was most fulfilled with his life, talents and ambitions”.

    Basically, as I get older since the earlier days. I did keep to a policy to pursue my own thing. Not that I’m saying I avoided-isolated from women over the years, I mean in trying to follow the lesson that Hobbes explained (earlier than that post BTW, he’s not the first to say it). But now I reach my age and realized that how am I any different from those guys who married epiphany girls. Any different trajectory than that comic leading in your “Hats off to the Bull” post? Aside that I might have the foresight to to recognize and say no.

    Along with that, previously, thoughts of this have been rebuttled in my mind by the argument “obviously, I’m still in blue pill conditioning, just keep focusing on your own thing.” But now I have to question that either I’m just setting myself up either untested MGTOW or to be that beta – neither means being viewed as an alpha.

  76. Wexlers: One thing id like to add that i think would help clear up the blurred line between the basic distinction of alpha/beta: its subjective, and depends on the girl observing the guys behavior

    ^^^

    Don’t you think that not only girls are validating men being beta or alpha -but also other males ?

  77. Niko Choski and Rollo Tomassi
    Thanks…you two talking, giggling together…made me see my own error more clearly. I forget sometimes…but I never ..now..make the fundamental error that you cling to as fervently as life itself.
    Division…the ‘them and us’ ..we belong…we are safe…thing.
    ……The sense of personal annihilation, that has to be defeated, in order to recognise ones ‘self’ ..quite alone….sans any ‘us’?
    You havnt made it yet.
    You two hold on, as if you are mid ocean, somewhere off Cape Horn in a storm.. to your water wings of Masculine Identity.
    In that…you can cling ‘together’..and be ‘safe’..
    It is ..after all..quite an easy ID to claim…you just need to check in your pants and dream of pussy, and you have a crowd of supportive companions, imaginary or not…doesn’t matter.
    I do forget sometimes…that the most terrifying wickedness/cruelty/barbarity….the very worst aspects of human nature…might be seen in *any* individual.
    Gender, like other classifications…makes no difference at all. Male and female cruelty differs only according to cultural influence. Females are as effective as destroyers, as males…they may…or may not…achieve a required destruction…in similar ways.
    I was always a very tough female. I could inflict physical injury as easily as any male, but to hurt another human being…requires nothing greater …than the *will* to do so. The ways to accomplish that….are as many as there are individuals. Each person has his or her own breaking point, own weakness…that any determined ‘murderer’…of mind or body…can locate and use to best advantage.
    Gender makes not an iota of difference, in this respect.
    But you two…you hold on like little kids, to expectations, hopes …even.
    You want and need to believe in integrity…
    A supportive world, where there will always be The Friend…to stand by you. Give you courage.
    Well…there really is…integrity…there really is…’love’..all those goodies that you …quite mistakenly….believe you might discover in your kiddies clubs of this or that man’s world. You search for them..in DIVISION. The division of your universe into *male and female*.
    They are not there.
    Both the worst and the best of human nature..is nowhere else to be found, and examined…better… than in your own.
    When you know your self, when you can understand singular identity..
    Then you will be strong.
    I’ve heard Niko Choski say how he is indifferent to thoughts about the possible products, of his pussy probing. ‘The children’.
    I listened to his thoughts about the differences between empathy and sympathy.
    It is likely that you will not hear me…but I can tell you with conviction… That until you can learn to empathise..not sympathize…with a child abandoned by one or both parents…you will find no conclusions worth more than a thses few convivial giggly/conversational moments.
    Choski talked about ‘fuckin (adjective) kids’
    That’s what you both are.
    Whatever it is…when you think of ”fuckin kids’ ….is you.
    You two are part of the world’s tragedy, and remain so, until you can empathise with the children you call ‘fuckin children’….
    I’m not lonely, I enjoy solitude…
    I am a whole person who needs no other for my own completion.No man, no woman. The qualities identified by different cultures as male and female…are all mine.
    Your obsession with division….iis absurd.

  78. How many ”fuckin kids”… (Your own quote)…have you abandoned…or simply dismissed as the responsibility of your one night shag?
    The gal you would not even have talked to if you had been sober..?
    The gal you’ve forgotten her name,
    The gal you did not want anything to do with.. after an uninteresting sex session?
    The gal who in so many different ways…was a louse, a bitch, a cunt from hell…etc etc?

    …how many kids have YOU left in the charge of those women..
    while you think and dream about the pleasure due…to your own dick?

    While you dream of your entitlement.!!
    .Of everything owed to you…
    Everything you feel is rightfully yours?

    While your child…your children…your own “fuckin kids”…you abandon …
    Not like stray, unwanted dogs…you know for THAT…there’s a fine or prison sentence.
    Your child? Easy to dump…easy to forget…easy to allow the world to award any abuse it feels due…to your shag.
    To your child’s mother.
    How do you suppose it feels…for any child…to know that it’s mother is abused in such a way?
    Your lack of empathy..your apathy and cruel indifference to your very own… “‘fuckin kids”… sets the foundations for the very worst of any hells that mankind can create.
    Go there.
    Please go there…and stay there…till you KNOW…what you are doing.

  79. How many ”fuckin kids”… (Your own quote)…have you abandoned…or simply dismissed as the responsibility of your one night shag?
    The gal you would not even have talked to if you had been sober..?
    The gal you’ve forgotten her name,
    The gal you did not want anything to do with.. after an uninteresting sex session?
    The gal who in so many different ways…was a louse, a bitch, a cunt from hell…etc etc?

    …how many kids have YOU left in the charge of those women..
    while you think and dream about the pleasure due…to your own dick?

    Zero.

  80. Pingback: Solipsism II |

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