I came across an interesting thread on Roosh’s forum recently that linked very well with some experiences I’ve been having over the course of the last few weeks. Eldelwiess was the OP here and he just hints upon a greater whole of the danger of the Red Pill:
It’s a very tough choice to make, yet inevitable. You HAVE to.
But it’s a difficult pill to swallow.
The side effects are really nasty.
Ever since I did it, my life changed to the better, but alas, to the bitter too.
The thing is I now SEE. I’m not blind anymore. But I don’t LIKE what I see.
Because what I see is hypocrisy, degeneration, mediocrity, ignorance and mental slavery.
When you see the world in red pill eyes, you see the ugly reality.
It makes you stop enjoying many things in life.
It makes you find the majority of the people boring, uninteresting and frankly stupid. You pity them.
It makes the bulk of the women unworthy of your time.
It makes you can’t stand your colleagues.
It makes many jokes not funny anymore.
It makes you question everything.
It makes everyone untrustworthy, even your physicians.It makes you…a better person ! And I love it.
But I understand why the majority of the people ignore the red pill and decide to remain in blue pill slavery and mediocrity. It’s easier. And you get to still enjoy life as you knew it, keep the friends who do the exact same thing, sympathize with your colleagues who complain about long working hours, date the same women who feel entitled to everything, watch the same TV programs which numb your mind and make you lose IQ points, vote for the same politicians who control the strings that make you move…
It’s easier.
Eldelwiess is just coming around to acknowledging The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill, but the inherent danger he’s hinting at here goes a little further beyond the perception of a Red Pill aware man being “bitter”, and into the social dynamics that center on creating and interpreting him being such. The danger in this context is not just a bitter perception, but rather one of personal, professional and familial ostracization for expressing Red Pill truths.
I touched on these liabilities in The Secret of the Red Pill, but this was more from the perspective of women having their Game explained to them and what Red Pill aware men might expect for having confronted them with it. The impact of that may only be the perception of you being a presumptuous asshole by an individual woman, however, there are broader implications and consequences for “living” the Red Pill in a larger social sense.
Wutang from Roosh’s forum:
I actually had a falling out with a group of casual acquaintances when my association with RP was revealed among the group so there is a “danger” with it affecting your social bonds. I put danger in quotes because you really should see it as more of an act of filtering out who you associate with rather then any sort of great harm; the exception being if these are people who you work with or who can put a wrench in you advancing in your goals. If the only real harm is losing a few acquaintances or even friends then you should ask yourself if these are really the sort of people you want to associate with. Do you want to surround yourself with people that are apparently so mentally weak that mere words and difference of opinion can drive them into bouts of wailing and sobbing?
While we promote self-sufficiency and being beholden to no other man or system in our particular subculture we need to keep remembering that no man is an island. The people you associate with are going to determine where you are heading. Surround yourself with people who possess beliefs that lead to perpetual victimhood and you’ll become a victim yourself. Associate with people that can’t stand up for anything except a spineless tolerance that refuses to make any sort of value judgements and make the tough choice of saying ‘A is simply better then B when it comes to accomplishing C” whether A is an idea, an action, or even a type of person and you will soon lose your own spine; being afraid to fight for anything for the fear that it’ll make someone somewhere unhappy.
That said this was still a lesson in knowing when is the right time to drop RP knowledge. Naturally I’m a very open and sharing person when it comes to my beliefs and opinions but after this incident I’ve learned to be a lot more careful. In this case I didn’t really lose much since I was already growing to dislike quite a few of the people in the group but it definitely was a warning – what if this has happened with people who I actually respected and who were in positions and had connections that could either help or hinder me in my personal goals? Be careful out there guys.
I quoted this today because I find myself having to temper and measure my Red Pill evangelism with people I know personally or interact with professionally. I say evangelism because, in spite of any measured explanation, this is what it comes off as to most uninitiated Blue Pill plugins. There’s a degree of diplomatic tact you have to practice the more Red Pill aware a man becomes.
Sometimes that’s tough, especially when you’ve gone through personal changes and development that’s benefitted your life as a result. Red Pill awareness may have even saved a man’s life, so just shutting up about it, or having a hesitancy to help out a fellow man in need of that awareness becomes a real conflict.
In June I’ll have been back in Nevada for two years and in that time I’ve reacquainted myself with old friends I haven’t seen since I left for Florida almost ten years ago. All of them I find in similar (if not identical) states in which I left them. Some of these men are long time close personal friends I’d kept in touch with over the years, but with the exception of maybe one out of a dozen, all are still foundering in the same Beta mindset, lifestyle and behaviors they had ten years ago. All of them still complain of the same Beta-relationship issues they had with their wives (some now ex-wives) they confided in me then.
The Rule
NEO: I can’t go back, can I?
MORPHEUS: No. But if you could, would you really want to? I feel that I owe you an apology. There is a rule that we do not free a mind once it reaches a certain age. It is dangerous. They have trouble letting go. Their mind turns against them. I’ve seen it happen. I’m sorry. I broke the rule because I had to.
You’ll have to forgive my using the Matrix metaphor, but every time I’m tempted to awaken a man I think may desperately need the truth of Red Pill awareness I’m reminded of this exchange. I understand why this would be a rule. Granted, I’ve broken it myself many times; usually when I think a man is a danger to himself, but I do so with the knowing that I’ll need to invest myself personally in his conditions and that’s where that cautious hesitation comes from.
There are friends I have who I know would outright reject Red Pill truths, but more so their lives would be turned upside down by having to confront those truths. I have a very good friend who’s remarried and living a new life with his second wife, who is still clinging to all of the internalized Beta illusions and behaviors that contributed to his first brutal divorce.
I could make him aware of all the factors that led up to this very painful episode in his life. I could run down the list of how the woman he married early in life followed the time line I put forth in Preventive Medicine to the letter, why his daughters are both following her footsteps and why his son will grow into being a martyred Beta White Knight like himself.
I could also explain all the factors that led to his new wife’s need for him (who by his Beta measures he’s thrilled with), but I ask myself, why destroy that bliss for him? He’s not now, nor likely will be, ready to have any of that explained. My concern is that he’s too far along in life to bear the burden of that truth. He’d have trouble letting go. His mind would turn against him.
If he were to reach that point of desperation again I’d certainly be compelled to reach out to him and offer the Red Pill to him, but as I’ve said in the past, unplugging men from the Matrix is a lot like triage – save the ones you can, read last rites to the dying. But this guy’s not dying and giving him the medicine might be worse than his conditions.
Law 10 – Infection: avoid the unhappy and unlucky.
Though your compassionate, charitable side may compel you to associate with the sad and downtrodden, if power attainment is your goal then avoid such people. Their bad vibe and energy-draining demeanor are too often infectious. You run a very serious risk of falling into line with their misery. Instead spend your time with people who are happy and successful. You can die from someone else’s misery – emotional states are as infectious as disease.
When I quote Law 10 it’s usually in response to a guy dealing with troubled, toxic women dragging them down into the quicksand of their own making. The Savior Schema usually warrants this truth; it’s a want in a belief that a woman will appreciate and reciprocate for a man ready to be the solution to her problems. However, the same can apply for men who attempt to free the minds of other men.
In both volumes of The Rational Male I make a specific effort to address that Rollo Tomassi doesn’t want to be a savior – I want men to be their own saviors because, although I may present Red Pill truths, it’s ultimately a man who needs to be the director of his own life. If the true measure of power is the degree of control a man has over his own life, relying on a savior, relying on how well one conforms to his plan, is really a limit on that power.
As I state in the books, I’m not interested in Tomassi clones, this is why I’m humbled by every man’s story I’m emailed or commented on about how they changed their lives with what I put forth in my writing.
From the Roosh forum again:
The only ‘danger’ the red pill presents is one’s own inability to let go of previous beliefs when confronted with truth. The red pill makes you look in the mirror and come to terms with your own ego and the lies it convinced you of.
“You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.”
Our ego is what we’re ultimately protecting. Most people don’t have an identity beyond their ego, that’s why most of the population can’t handle the red pill. Unless you were born with red pill parents, being raised blue pill and transitioning to red (altering your very reality) will always be traumatic on some level.
I’m of the opinion that trauma and crisis are necessary components to arriving at a point where a man is open to Red Pill awareness. I realize how distorted that sounds. It should be that a rational laying out of Red Pill truths should be self-evident, but it’s important to contrast that hope with the lifetime of feminine-primary conditioning men receive since their infancy.
There will always be people who will never accept even to most base and evident Red Pill fundamental truths. I completely understand Wutang’s premise for wanting to create our own manospherean tribes. We’ve had a good bit of commentary regarding Jack Donovan’s (Way of Men) call for organizing in like-minded collectives of men, and while I agree and find that laudable, I also know that isolation is dangerous.
Even by Law 10 it makes sense to surround oneself with the “happy and successful”; that’s a pretty deductive truth. However, I can’t ignore that many of the most condition-blinded people are also the most happy. I know multi-millionaires who are among the most abject Betas with regard to their intersexual relations.
So I guess what I’m saying is that there needs to be a level of discernment and discretion in this regard. I reach over half a million viewers / readers every month on TRM without advertising, without proselytizing, and men seem to find my works more and more. When the student is ready the teacher will appear – these men are seeking out the Red Pill and I suspect more will as Open Hypergamy and the machinations of the Feminine Imperative become unignorable.
You can’t teach those unwilling to learn – maybe it’s less about being convincing and more about being ready to help when the opportunities arise? That’s not me being magnanimous, that’s me being practical.
@thedeti Women don’t care about those men, don’t want to hear about those men, and don’t want to be burdened with the knowledge of those men’s difficulties. Hence the whole “Just because you do everything you were told would get you sex with a woman doesn’t mean you’re entitled to sex! Where do you get off with that attitude?” Complete refusal to see it from the man’s perspective for even a brief moment to generate the tiniest bit of empathy. @Rollo He was a whack job, but many Alphas are. You know, that does puzzle me when I’ve run in… Read more »
“Men are scary, Tomassi. They are scary when they stab you 32 times. They are scary when they pour boiling water on you or leave you in a shallow grave somewhere. They are scary when they shoot their wives and babies in the head. Do you not know these things?? You try to wrap the truth in bogus theories about female imperatives and speak nonsense to me about mewling quim, but you haven’t even got the balls to see the world as it really is. Wake the hell up. Male solipsism is a real thing in the world, too. I… Read more »
“Immediately would become clear that it wasn’t an act. What’s the dynamic that accounts for that being so common? I know the woo wasn’t what did the work for them, but it seemed to be a common side effect of that “natural Alpha” personality.” Two things immediately popped into my head. One was Pook’s emphasis on FUN in all interactions with women. He was very clear that women were not going to be engaged and aroused by the intellectual, but by feeling and mood. That does not mean women are STUPID. It just means they respond sexually to certain things,… Read more »
@Seraph & Sun:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/01/chick-crack/
@SFC Ton I don’t recall having a specific Red Pill talk with my son. It was more like a constant low key theme in living Yeah, I’ve figured that if I ever have kids, raising a son “Red Pill” like so many concerned guys ask when they’re newly unplugged is simply a case of “Never explicate. Demonstrate.” While the manosphere has only occurred due to the rapid exchange of information via the internet, it’s somewhat tragic that it can’t actually go by that tenet internally since you don’t live around the guys you’re learning from usually. Our usual means of… Read more »
@ Seraph
When you say FUN you mean from a woman’s perspective. Same as when the advice is to have interesting hobbies, it really means have hobbies interesting to women. What we as men find to be fun or interesting is of no interest to women.
Again, wear the costume and do the dance. The man must act, perform, and entertain. If he enjoys that or not is immaterial. It’s the process, a job, a chore and you get paid (hopefully) in pussy.
“When I read female commenters and bloggers launch into discussions about character, empathy, morality, immorality, ethics my first instinct is to tell them to fuck off. Not because I think it is a great thing to be immoral and purely selfish, but because I know they are full of shit, the appeal to these things are a debating, rhetorical, shaming tactic” There is no such thing as morality. Morality is chicanery. All “gods” are paper tigers contrived to facilitate the games of blame & shame and hopes & fears. “Morality” simply does not exist in reality. It is only a… Read more »
This is the pablum on the team website I referred to above. I copied it, parsed it (my comments in brackets) and emailed. In hind sight, I probably should have reworded assclown, homo and pussy. The thing that offended me most was this guy usurping the crying kids father. Confessions of a Crybaby I am a crybaby. Sometimes, I cry when I’m inspired or sad. Sometimes, I cry from disappointment or joy. I cried when my high school football team won the state championship. I even cried during an episode of Hannah Montana that I watched with my then 5-year-old… Read more »
“When you say FUN you mean from a woman’s perspective. Same as when the advice is to have interesting hobbies, it really means have hobbies interesting to women. What we as men find to be fun or interesting is of no interest to women. Again, wear the costume and do the dance. The man must act, perform, and entertain. If he enjoys that or not is immaterial. It’s the process, a job, a chore and you get paid (hopefully) in pussy.” MMMmm, yes and no. Pook would argue you can get some mileage out of the aping of her interests,… Read more »
@Sun- “Almost all the dudes I’ve ever known that were naturals with women bought in to all kinds of crazy woo. Homeopathy, chakras, crystals, all that new agey bullshit. Like if you got them alone and told them” You’ll never hear the truth overtly (except here). It would blow the cover. Women are naturally drawn to frivolous intrigue especially if it implies the supernatural. They are fascinated with any form of trickery, deceit and ambivalence. This is how women exercise control. Men are fascinated with logic, cause & effect, predicting outcomes, and forecasting results. This is how men exercise control.… Read more »
“You can die from someone else’s misery”
Is there evidence for this claim?
I can give you 150 examples of evidence lying dead on a mountainside in the Swiss Alps.
“Almost all the dudes I’ve ever known that were naturals with women bought in to all kinds of crazy woo. Homeopathy, chakras, crystals, all that new agey bullshit. Like if you got them alone and told them” This. That’s why so many PUAs and red pillers draw from new age gurus like David Deida and others. But keep in mind the women they attract are already into that stuff. The new age scene is huge in the US and many people are into it but there’s also many people who aren’t. Women who aren’t just wont be frequenting those circles.… Read more »
“You can die from someone else’s misery”
Is there evidence for this claim?”
You believe stress can cause health issues, no?
http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/features/10-fixable-stress-related-health-problems
Unless you don’t, then it stands to reason that wallowing in misery, and/or surrounding yourself with people who wallow in misery, would be a stressor.
Now, before you request data and charts and studies that PROVE being in proximity to miserable people will kill you in a week, let’s use common sense and a little less rigidity to understand the point being made.
Not trying to pompous. Simply trying to curtail superfluous debate.
Seraph, “One was Pook’s emphasis on FUN in all interactions with women. He was very clear that women were not going to be engaged and aroused by the intellectual, but by feeling and mood.” Men are not sexually aroused by the intellectual either. There’s a dance of yin and yang that women and men engage in for attraction and mating purposes. Outside of that there’s no need to feign non-intellectualism, though keep in mind American culture is generally anti-intellectual, at least in the mainstream. The problem with modern relationships and marriage is that one’s spouse is supposed to be one’s… Read more »
Starve the Troll.
Thanks Seraph, that would be correlation, not direct causation. “Btw, I noticed red pill sites can toxify your mood at first, but then you get tolerant, or something. At least it was so with me. Confront unpleasant stuff and it can get better. Sometimes.” There’s a lot of claims about being lied to by the Church. I get the impression Christianity teaches women are great and men are dogs? That’s not the impression I ever got when I listened to preachers but supposedly there’s a whole movement in Christianity that teaches this and the boys who grew up in that… Read more »
“Men are not sexually aroused by the intellectual either.”
Never said they were.
“Outside of that there’s no need to feign non-intellectualism,”
Never said one had to.
“though keep in mind American culture is generally anti-intellectual, at least in the mainstream.”
I am not trying to provoke you here, but you are firing off non-sequiters like a semi-auto. I appreciate a response, but then it seems like you are not responding to what I wrote for the most part.
Just sayin…
@Rollo
Yeah I remember reading your article, but that’s more about explaining the female side of it. I’m curious why the natural Alpha set seems to pick up on it so readily, even to the point of frequently seeming to genuinely believe in it. Is it just that they notice females react well to it or what?
“Thanks Seraph, that would be correlation, not direct causation.”
No, actually. I think you know it, too.
You tried to parse yourself a bit of wiggle room with the term ‘DIRECT causation’. Why not leave it at ‘causation’?
So, you think there is at least SOME causation between the two, otherwise there would be no need for such a qualifier, no?
Oh, now…See!…This was the exact type of niggling little debate I was trying to avoid.
I can give you 150 examples of evidence lying dead on a mountainside in the Swiss Alps.
Annnnnd a 150mm shell lands in MYG’s intellectual foxhole…
BOOM!
The red pill explained to blue pill people. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4xqoSPIeODs This film comes to mind. @Seraph “It is like I do not know myself. It is driving me (mildly) insane.” Being out in nature helps… “I need a little more help and direction here, folks.” A good book I once read was called “We” By zemvintin about D503 male and I330 female It’s what brings me here… “Men (but not woman) sexually abuse children?” That’s funny because if I remember back far enough my sister was the playing with me in the nude… Fuck… Women can be seriously hurtful to boys… Read more »
MYG:
http://33.media.tumblr.com/f9d10e85c7d2c9545e88d5a38834fb66/tumblr_nnhkrjlzrU1qz9wlpo1_400.gif
@Agent P You’re evaluation of the situation @ MMSL is spot on… very sad to watch. I was first exposed to TRP at MMSL via TAM due to my ex’s infidelity, looking for answers. I voraciously absorbed all of Athol’s material, but intuitively knew there was more and continued my search, finding Roissey, Dalrock, Ian, etc. I ultimately founded the purest source of ‘the word’ at TRM and haven’t looked any further. I posted regularly from the start of forum at MMSL, hoping (in some small part) to carry it forward. I was often chided for not sticking to the… Read more »
Sun, “Yeah I remember reading your article, but that’s more about explaining the female side of it. I’m curious why the natural Alpha set seems to pick up on it so readily, even to the point of frequently seeming to genuinely believe in it. Is it just that they notice females react well to it or what?” New Age is not globally prevalant so most alphas are not new age. The New Age alphas you see are people who are into that sub-culture, just as atheist alphas are atheist or Muslim alphas are muslim. That doesn’t mean “alphas are atheists”… Read more »
@Chump no more ” I left many months ago and have no intention of going back. That said, I do continue to feel gratitude to Athol and many folks there… they were kind, helped me during some very bad times, and encouraged me in my early days on the path.” The same here with many groups that women took over from men. It’s sad to be aware of sometimes… @Atticus Hey that reminds me I am a huge proponent of teaching parents rugby when their kids are allowed to cry. I just spit blood and don’t cry Not sure I… Read more »
“Being out in nature helps…
Thanks. Sometimes you just need to have what you already feel reinforced.
I have noticed my mood shifts a lot now due to the weather, I think because I really long to be outside, in the sun. My job entails a darkish room for most of the day. Just today, walking out on the street, it occurred to me how I really would rather be doing something outside.
Appreciate it. Will check out the book.
Recently, I have scaled way back trying to help anyone with examples of RP. I had an exchange a few years back that showed me that my conviction was not widely shared or appreciated, and that my beliefs could not even be considered due to how radically different they appeared to ” normal ” social convention. I have a friend. He is what I consider a true, natural alpha. He’s married with 2 children. I was summoned by mutual female friends, To ” have a talk ” with my friend because he was acting strange. The strange behavior is that… Read more »
@Seraph
Oh, now…See!…This was the exact type of niggling little debate I was trying to avoid.
Hence the reason one shouldn’t engage with trolls.
@Rollo
I can give you 150 examples of evidence lying dead on a mountainside in the Swiss Alps.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/145/oh_snap.gif
Danger of the Red Pill:
http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/35q06d/ive_been_banned_from_another_sub_i_never_posted/
@Seraph Here you go https://mises.org/sites/default/files/We_2.pdf I went out with I330 It was a blue pill disaster I prefer the hand held copy by natashal Randall but this pdf should do you good. I made more notes in that book than any other. I fell in love with that man from russia because he like Rollo Told the “truth” However Rollo didn’t get banned from a whole country for not only being real but asking the people running the country to change for the betterment of men. This is the most underrated red pill novel ever written. You want to know… Read more »
“@Seraph
Oh, now…See!…This was the exact type of niggling little debate I was trying to avoid.
Hence the reason one shouldn’t engage with trolls.”
Ya got me. I will rail against them, but then can’t resist taunting them at times.
I’m WEAK!
Heh.
I started life extremely Red. I had 10 uncles who schooled me hard and I listened because they were all the coolest dudes I ever saw. I didn’t see women the same way as my peers growing up. Women, in my mind, were all interchangeable. The only ones that were special to me were the one’s that were my friends growing up. They would give my ” clues ” about how females think. I got married in my early 20’s, and by my mid 30’s, I was the Bluest man alive. After the inevitable divorce, I spent a few years… Read more »
From the Reddit Link:
“theredpill is a hate subreddit, the only question is if you support them. They have been invading this community and making it unsafe for our community members, so we are taking preventative measures.”
You see here why it is so important for SJW’s to infiltrate all manner of organizations.
Dissent is dangerous (for them), and ANYWHERE it lives, it must be strangled under the cloak of ‘making things safe’.
You can’t even make your own space or place, because they can’t tolerate anyone disagreeing, anywhere. They will invade it, co-opt it, and then convert it.
@ Sun Wukong
Humans have evolved the ability to actually come to believe their own lies, as a way of avoiding the lie detection of others and seeming to be sincere about something untrue. Some can do this better than others. Those who can “believe their own bullshit” are often more charismatic to others and better manipulators (i.e. alpha). That is why the “new age guru” often gets so much tail…and sometimes actually believes what he’s shoveling too…
Rollo, Some of the comments above hint at, what I believe, is the central difficulty for men to accept the red pill…the fact that it does not provide a ready-made meaning for their life. Such ready-made meaning is why many men hold onto a blue pill ideology, rather than operating from a red pill position of praxeology and pragmatism. Specifically, while a red pill perspective logically appraises roles such as “white knight” or “beta provider” as failed mating strategies, men within those roles are more concerned with maintaining the positive symbolic identity and psychological meaning it provides them, than they… Read more »
” . . . 1912 . . . before mainstream media.”
How do you think the Spanish-American War and WWI got pumped up?
” In fact, it is not unheard of for a man to choose to die or kill, rather than give up a belief that provides a sense of meaning for himself. Therefore, in many cases, getting a man to trade an ideology that provides symbolic meaning, for a praxeology that provides tangible benefits, will be exceedingly difficult – and often met with hostility for threatening that meaning. That is why men primarily adopt a red pill perspective only after a serious crisis that has shattered the ideological meaning in their lives. At that point, they have nothing to lose.” I… Read more »
@Dr. J
Given that, the red pill may need to evolve further, especially if it wants to be a viable perspective for more men.
Not sure I agree with this. Isn’t there going to be a natural tendency toward eventually figuring out one’s own meaning with the restoration of masculinity and its natural tendency toward independent action and thought? Do you really need a pre-packaged “meaning of life” when you’re trying to give men the tools to seek it out on their own instead of coddling them like their previous beliefs did?
“Men are not sexually aroused by the intellectual either.”
Never said they were.
“Outside of that there’s no need to feign non-intellectualism,”
Never said one had to.
_____________________
I know.
The general narrative that women are not interested in male interests or not aroused by them. And vice versa. Male interests and female interests are not meant to be sexually arousing to the opposite sex.
Female interests and hobbies, male interests and hobbies, smarts, big brain, big heart, compassion, mercy, generosity, philanthropy etc, etc, are not sexual turn ons.
Turn ons are looks,game, masculine swagger and feminine charm.
When the red pill “evolves” into a ready made meaning of life, it will be the blue pill.
The truth is the truth.
“Male interests and female interests are not meant to be sexually arousing to the opposite sex.”
Chop wood, style hair.
@kfg
Chop wood, style hair.
And all this time I thought it was “style wood, chop hair”. I feel like such a boob.
rugby, “In the LDS faith I grow up with…”
My condolences. Its best to expose kids to a wide variety of religions and philosophies, and let them do their own choosing once they get old enough, while grounding them at home in a general but daily meditation practice.
While all religions have some good core virtues that should be taught (better lived and practically demonstrated) brainwashing a young, developing mind in mythology is a type of abuse.
@Sun Wukong:
It is, if you invert the sexes.
@ Sun Wukong In any tribe of men, all men are more or less “masculine”, but there is still a hierarchy of leadership. So, being a man does not always result in “independent action and thought”. Some men get meaning by following and being part of the group, rather than leading themselves or the group. Right now, the red pill only appeals to men who are leaders. It does not appeal to the “rank and file” men who get meaning from following and being a part of something, rather than figuring out meaning independently for themselves. Frankly, followers are often… Read more »
Seraph – “Dissent is dangerous (for them), and ANYWHERE it lives, it must be strangled under the cloak of ‘making things safe’.”
Reminds me of the old quote about trading liberty for security and ending up with neither.
Also I remember one about sticks and stones being harmful, and words being benign. That doesn’t apply to SJWs, being as they’re weak, defective, degenerate subhumans. So one can engage with them with words and cause all manner of psychic damage. I find that’s as much fun as shooting prairie dogs.
Blaximus, “I was the Bluest man alive.”
There’s a culturally insensitive, politically incorrect joke just dying to be made from that.
Russell Peters could get away with it.
@Dr. J Frankly, followers are often the majority of men…and that is why the red pill often does not appeal to them as a mainstream audience. This still kind of leads to the same point for me though. OK, they’re followers. Red Pill is encouraging natural leaders to become leaders… of the men that want to be followers. The leaders determine their own meaning, handing it down to the followers. This still leaves a situation where I don’t think TRP needs to ever evolve to dictate meaning even to followers; that’s up to the leaders who are created as a… Read more »
@ KFG When the red pill “evolves” into a ready made meaning of life, it will be the blue pill. The truth is the truth. At least it would be a ready-made meaning more compatible with the “masculine imperative” too (as it was in past generations). Most people cannot survive outside of one “matrix” or another anyway. So, while it is noble to free those who can be freed entirely, is it not better to simply transplant the rest into a more agreeable social construct? After all, that’s what we’ve had for all of human history anyway…only the programming has… Read more »
@Dr. J It’s not that I disagree with you, but I’m always mindful of, and careful in avoiding a the ‘cult effect’ with regard to offering help to men who find themselves at their lowest point. It’s no great secret that religion has always relied on converting men and women with ‘salvation’ from one’s rock bottom state. It takes trauma or a life altering event for most people to have any introspection. I recognized this early on and I’ve written about it years ago as well as in both books. While I believe that life-trauma is (often) a necessary component… Read more »
@Dr Jeremy “men within those roles are more concerned with maintaining the positive symbolic identity and psychological meaning it provides them, than they are with obtaining tangible benefits (or avoiding negative events). ” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p9fM6jTGJpo Yeah that’s the males I grew up with all in a sort paragraph. “Right now, the red pill only appeals to men who are leaders. ” You know your right @kfg I stand corrected you bring up a good point. I suppose I just really enjoy what happens when men lose leadership. Thank you @MYG “brainwashing a young, developing mind in mythology is a type of… Read more »
Dr. J – “That is why men primarily adopt a red pill perspective only after a serious crisis that has shattered the ideological meaning in their lives.” I partially disagree with you on this; probably because of personal experience. The red pill tapped on my door over a period of time and I cannot remember exactly when the tapping began. Looking back I can identify specific instances in adolescence that were red pill. For me it seems to have always been there becoming more obvious over time. Maybe we are all aware on some level in the beginning that we… Read more »
Sun Wukong – “Do you really need a pre-packaged ‘meaning of life’ when you’re trying to give men the tools to seek it out on their own instead of coddling them like their previous beliefs did?” Yes. You see to get the best out the average beta he needs to actually believe in something larger than himself: God, country, family, tribe, any of these are sufficient to keep the betas working. If all a beta can be offered in lieu of the blue pill is a vague goal of improved self and a self centered existance then what is his… Read more »
@kfg
“I suppose I just really enjoy what happens when men lose leadership.”
Was making a joke
@Not born this morning
“Maybe our best purpose is to be as honest with ourselves as possible and control our lives to the maximum extent possible.”
A gift to ourselves.
Nathan @ May 12th, 2015 at 10:31 pm: “Once game is figured out, a few years at most to master the fundamentals, the Economy is THE THING for the Young Men. Is any other 20’s to early 30’s guys out there…. ANYONE.” Yep, right here. One reason younger guys are taking the Red Pill easily is because we don’t have even the chance to play Beta Game. “This is how to get women interested in you when you’re dirt poor” is quite a selling point. Seeing Manosphere guys report high incomes can be frustrating but that’s probably just because nobody… Read more »
“Most people cannot survive outside of one “matrix” or another anyway.”
Q.E.D.
Glen, the american military, national guard, law dogs etc have never failed to fire on citizens. Fucking ever. Kent State, Bonus Marchers, Ruby Ridge, the War of Northern Aggression…. they will pull the trigger.
Hell given the changing demographic of the military and who the govt considers the most dangerous Citizens( rural, God fearing White men, most esp Southron country boys)…. well I reckon they’ll do it with a smile.
” . . . nobody brags about living thin.”
Steal this book: http://nocardneeded.tumblr.com/post/30486165370/steal-this-book-by-abbie-hoffman-pdf
Thank you all of those thoughtful responses. I appreciate your perspectives. As part of clinical counseling education, we’re often taught a perspective exemplified by Rollo above… I make it my purpose to show men a truth, but they need to use that truth to make their own lives better, not according to any design I could contrive for them. In my own experience, however, that does not work out well much of the time. The men like yourselves who comment on this site, and espouse the red pill, are often remarkable – driven, highly intelligent, thoughtful, entrepreneurial, etc. In short,… Read more »
@Dr. J, “No, in my experience, many men just sit around aimless until someone else imposes some external meaning on them. Even with a “hands off” and helpful counselor, they will simply wait and bounce from an over-controlling mother, to a nagging wife, or to a cultish church, or a driving boss. Sometimes, the best you can do is help them to pick something to follow that won’t exploit them “as much”. For me, that is heartbreaking…and why I don’t do traditional counseling anymore. Nevertheless, I still care about those aimless men and the health of our society in general.… Read more »
Yea Gunner, I mostly run with vets and 1%’ers but I also deal with more main stream folk, especially down range riding shotgun on NGO hippies, state department SWPL/ SJW UMC dipzhits…. I…. maybe it’s about expectations. No one has any perceived notion of my being politically correct I also agree that the economy kills the chance of playing beta game for younger men, plus they are often hostile toward their mothers. On economic issues my house and two rent houses are paid off. I am a a partner in three small businesses….. Sun, the way I conveyed info to… Read more »
@Jexto,
Thank you for that post of the Alan Watts lecture. Fascinating stuff and I think the kind of thing that will be of great help.
No, in my experience, many men just sit around aimless until someone else imposes some external meaning on them. Even with a “hands off” and helpful counselor, they will simply wait and bounce from an over-controlling mother, to a nagging wife, or to a cultish church, or a driving boss. Sometimes, the best you can do is help them to pick something to follow that won’t exploit them “as much”. For me, that is heartbreaking…and why I don’t do traditional counseling anymore. Nevertheless, I still care about those aimless men and the health of our society in general. So, I… Read more »
@Novaseeker
Too many men?
I disagree that there are too many men overall. I agree that there are too many inferior men. I submit that the ratio of inferior men is a function of FI/society. This can be changed without some kind of mass-male die off.
“The natural system is broken.”
Easily solution:
Step 1. Outlaw agricultural machinery.
Step 2. End all medicine not related to trama and wound care.
Thinking about the inferior man concept in personal terms, approx. 30% of the men that I know today have virtually no traditionally masculine skills. One of them is sitting not too far from me at this moment. He has no mechanical skills or interests, no athletic skill or interest, if the supermarkets were to shut down he’d be dead in a week. He has a constant disheveled appearance, can’t hammer a nail under threat of death, and has absolutely no motivation to do anything of meaning or substance. Society says that his way of life is fine. We should just… Read more »
@Dr. Jeremy: Embrace elitism
@Badpainter: And be overrun by a people who do not. Genies do not go back into bottles easily.
@Thoroughbred Sounds like a plan. If he’s going to the mall and looking at boobs, that’s about the time to start paying attention. Use your judgement, but that’s what I put the Primer up there for. I’m planning some expansion this summer, now that I have a better handle on Consent. And I’m planning on putting the whole presentation on the YouTubes, since that’s where all the kiddies learn stuff on the street these days. Good luck! And get him in Scouts. The confidence he’ll learn with a good troop will be worth months of lectures. It’s never to early… Read more »
Novaseeker is correct. The male:female ratio is the problem. Without male specific mass attrition due to war, hunting, rites of passage, etc. a community becomes heavily weighted toward favoring the female sexual strategy exclusively. Take a look at the countries that are named by PUAs who travel as having great, feminine chicks. They’re all places with sub 1.0 male:female ratios. The lower than number is, the more favorable it is to men. In countries that “used to be great, but aren’t as much anymore” (Brazil, for example) they’re approaching 1.0. In most of the first world with bitchy women, grass… Read more »
“Then again, if they don’t follow me (or one of you), chances are they will just wait on the curb for someone else to lead them…who might be less kind to their needs (and perhaps our needs too). So, for me at least, that is the dilemma.” Probably best to just keep spreading the truth and providing example. We cannot control what anyone else does with themselves. Each is the captain of his own ship; even those who allow themselves to run adrift. Rollo’s refusal to allow his dot connecting to become a cult or to be deified shows he… Read more »
“The male:female ratio is the problem.”
I disagree with that. That aligns with a scarcity mentality. There just aren’t that many men out there with the character to compete with relative to the number of women available.
@NBTM That aligns with a scarcity mentality. There’s a difference between “scarcity mentality” and actual systemic scarcity. You’re talking about an individual strategy for overcoming a psychological issue men face when trying to approach women. What I’m talking about here is that men as a group face systemic scarcity of viable female mates due to our sexual strategy (one guy many partners) being hamstrung by an overabundance of male competition. It’s why the price of pussy has gone through the roof. Whether you have an abundance mentality or not doesn’t change the reality of actual numeric ratios you’re up against.… Read more »
I can’t believe you guys are still arguing about MBTI. Did any of you bother to read the many academic cites in the article I linked? The actual academic field of psychology believes MBTI to a useless joke and the province of high priced, snake oil selling corporate consultants. It’s been studied extensively by academics and has been laughed out of serious psychological discussion since 1994. All of you claiming some personal success with it are engaging in a logical flaw in your reasoning called “casuistry”. If you don’t know what it means, look it up. If you don’t like… Read more »
To put it another way: if I walk in to a bar and there’s not a single attractive woman there, I can’t magically make one appear by having an abundance mentality. Scarcity isn’t just a mentality. Sometimes it’s simply a fact.
MBTI rests on faulty foundations. Topic came up on another blog I visit a few weeks back: MBTI is crap, even if it is fun crap, and I say this as a person proudly self-identifying as INTJ. MBTI is based on the concept of cognitive stacks. Sensing vs. Intuition, Thinking vs. Feeling. Then based on an Extraversion vs. Introversion preference, and then a Judging vs. Perceiving preference (which is REALLY funky, because that’s based on what you ‘show the world.’) Real-life humans do not break into these stacks. At all. As Mike C pointed out, there is no Introversion vs.… Read more »
“Now what? Where is the PURPOSE? On my death bed…what will have MATTERED? Indeed… http://therationalmale.com/2015/02/15/end-of-life-issues/” Thanks Rollo. I can really relate to your story in that post. Watching my grandfather die. Days left. Blue piller to the end. My grandmother has controlled him for 52 years. He’s allowed her to dictate every detail of the end of his life. Right down to the color of his urn. “This is a tragedy because it disqualifies those fantastic life experiences (even stressful ones) because that Beta want of a mutually shared love precedes the capacity to recognize those great peaks.” Even his… Read more »
@Dr Jeremy “No, in my experience, many men just sit around aimless until someone else imposes some external meaning on them. Even with a “hands off” and helpful counselor, they will simply wait and bounce from an over-controlling mother, to a nagging wife, or to a cultish church, or a driving boss. Sometimes, the best you can do is help them to pick something to follow that won’t exploit them “as much”. Me as a kid growing up being yelled at to be a man. It’s good your hear I just realized something maybe you could help me out with.… Read more »
@CaveClown: Read
http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/29/a-new-hope/
Glenn, Stop being a whiny little bitch about Meyers-Briggs. We get it. It doesn’t make sense and doesn’t work in the corporate setting in order to jam your ass into the hole that it doesn’t belong to or that you don’t want it to be put in . I get that. I get corporate frustration over having to take the test 6 times (especially when it is bullshit and you are the supplicant). Yeah, I don’t like to have to take my certification boards every ten years for a $1000 and spend 6 weeks studying for them and spend $2,500… Read more »
A Definite Beta Guy May 13th, 2015 at 9:18 pm “Real-life humans do not break into these stacks. At all. As Mike C pointed out, there is no Introversion vs. Extraversion. I mean, it exists, but it isn’t bi-modal, with a large group of human introverts and a large group of human extraverts. There are a lot of people in the middle.” This is what I said earlier. MBTI is totally invalidated because I vs. E in the general populations exists as a bell curve. Bell curves invalidates MBTI. But it is not invalidated when some one is two standard… Read more »
Hillary an INTJ? I guess she lacks both T and J given her policy positions.
Hillary fakes it. She is a judgmental bitch that cares nothing about her constituents and is going to have to appear to care for those that want to suck on the governments tits. She’s giving you two fat thighs with a small breast and a left wing. (She doesn’t care for the the people that will vote for her. MBTI tells me that). Sorry. The E.H. Taylor small batch is sinking in after a day of flail mowing (JD 390 model) winter annual weeds in the food plots at the deer hunting farm with the 65 HP John Deere tractor.… Read more »
@Greg
Even though you can’t see it because Rollo’s comments don’t show nested, I was replying to him inside of WordPress.
Protip: In my “business”, I yearn to make someone as frustrated as you seem to be here. IQ drops a full 10 points in the middle of a hijack and then I REALLY own your ass. Push you allllll around the table, get what I want. Cause your frustration is making you literally dumber.
@ sjfrellc
Don’t be sorry. I’m three doubles of 18yr Glen Livet into the evening.
Earlier this evening a good friend told me about his “moment of clarity.” I got to do a little Red Pill teaching. Mostly asking questions to steer him to giving voice to the the reality he sees now.
Socratic method red pill advice. Not a bad way to teach.
@Cave Clown: The answers you seek have been asked for thousands of years. Read the Book of Ecclesiastes. It is the only thing I have ever read and almost the only thing ever written that answers those questions even a little bit. @Glenn: Summing up the entire manosphere and the solution to the problems identified by the Red Pill: “Taking political power away from women is the only cure.” @Insanity: “what men really need to is see their higher selves reflected in a woman’s eyes.” Oh..My…God. May He forgive you for your blindness but not your intentional malevolence. “The wife… Read more »
@Bluepillprofessor
If you’re gonna aim for the eyes, at least have the courtesy to let her wear goggles.
A bit late to that party, but I gotta say this thread made me laugh more than any other on the RM so far once ‘insanity’ got involved. @kfg especially was excellent.
insanity: “I’m not trolling for clicks. I’m attempting to talk to fools. How masochistic of me. Enjoy yourself Tomassi. If you ever want to talk, I’m not quite the idiot you fancy me to be.”
You know that indignant chin dip and thrust women do when they’re trying to show you they’re unfazed by something you said, and also more mature than you? Yeah, this was that.
“On the MBTI I’m an “Ascended Bastard”. LOL. You mean Ascended Master?
Him: Can I get your number?
Her: You’re not my type.
Him: Said to the man you just had sex with.
Her: If you were, I wouldn’t have.
@Badpainter
“Earlier this evening a good friend told me about his “moment of clarity.” I got to do a little Red Pill teaching. Mostly asking questions to steer him to giving voice to the the reality he sees now.”
Makes me think of how I am in the denial stage of the redpill.
Sun Wukong May 13th, 2015 at 2:12 pm Homeopathy, chakras, crystals, all that new agey bullshit. Like if you got them alone and told them “Alright you can stop showing for the ladies and level with me: do you actually buy in to that bullshit?” Immediately would become clear that it wasn’t an act. What’s the dynamic that accounts for that being so common? My theory is that their senses work differently than “ordinary person” senses. Note my discussion of sense of smell up thread. The universe really is a different place for an Alpha. Of all the people who… Read more »
Mad Yale Grad May 14th, 2015 at 12:33 am “Ascended bastard” is correct. That idea was first introduced to me by Art Kleps. His theory was (if I understand it correctly) that any teacher who is “attractive” will attract followers. (Betas at that) He wanted to attract independent operators. Hence his bastardly ways. And mine. If you can get past the outer crust perhaps we can do something together. Funny enough my basement boy son hates my guts and my Alpha son (currently living in Russia) respects me. As does my other Alpha son. My FI daughter is ambivalent. My… Read more »
@M Simon
“Funny enough my basement boy son hates my guts and my Alpha son (currently living in Russia) respects me. As does my other Alpha son.
My FI daughter is ambivalent.
My wife? “Why won’t you be nice?” – “Because you wouldn’t want me if I was.”
Way to be the Man seems as if other Alphas know Alphas…
What a remarkable world I live in.
“Why do my eyes hurt? Because you’ve never used them…
Thank you Rollo
rugby11ljh
May 13th, 2015 at 9:50 pm
I just realized something maybe you could help me out with.
Real angry with my dad.
What’s a good way to get over that?
Cut off all contact until the anger goes away. – Worked for me. Then I cut him off some more until he corrected his errors. Not perfectly. But good enough.
There is no guarantee of outcome. Except for you. If you have enough time.
Jeremy, ” This is usually the married game, religious HOH”
What’s HOH?
I agree with zdoidz that in the US, poor generally means unattractive. Particularly trailer park, hillbilly and redneck areas, the people look and act IGNANT as hell.
“Hoods” at least have their occasional black and latina hotties, though obesity is off the charts with black peeps.
“Note my discussion of sense of smell up thread.”
One of my expressed criticisms of trying to study mating preferences by response rates to dating site profiles has been that all head shots smell the same.
“The universe really is a different place for an Alpha.”
Is it unusual for smell to be an important factor for men? I’ve always considered that the real reason for a woman’s perfume is to confuse the sense of smell, making it harder for a man to make a true assessment of her.
Thinking and Feeling aren’t polar opposites.
I make my living from rationality. Extreme rationality. Rationality at best represents 10% of the universe.
@M Simon 10% makes me think where in a bad spot. “Except for you. If you have enough time.” I have until I die. I love the man but he has made my life hard to mange as a beta blue self righteous white knight I really am angry. I may be in the stage of denial still. Quick note when I sign on the conference please aske me questions about this because I feel my self assessments suck an a rational level. @kfg What about men wearing other people’s scent? Via cologne ? Makes me think of underwear and… Read more »
Athol Kay’s MMSL is even worse than Deida’s WoftheSM. Athol’s theory is that a man should act the clown, jump through hoops, and generally entertain his wife – forever. I suppose if your wife was an HB10 20 years younger than you then maybe. And that’s a strong maybe. But have you seen his wife?! And have you seen him?! Athol was a fanatical Christian virgin when he married and although he’s regurgitated the cult Kool Aid, he’s still only ever “known” (yes in the Biblical sense) his wife. She ain’t going anywhere, and even if she does, so what?… Read more »
Sun Wukong
May 13th, 2015 at 8:31 pm
The price of pussy is cheaper than it has ever been. Next. The price of ONE Pussy has never been higher. And perhaps that is what you mean.
How to lower the price? Always be ready for NEXT.
M Simon, you mention a beta son, 2 alpha sons, and an FI daughter.
What sexual and relationship advice would you give your daughter? Or what advice have you given her?
Sun Wukong May 13th, 2015 at 8:37 pm To put it another way: if I walk in to a bar and there’s not a single attractive woman there, I can’t magically make one appear by having an abundance mentality. Scarcity isn’t just a mentality. Sometimes it’s simply a fact. NEXTing is not just for women. It is for bars. Scenes. Groups. What ever. I had a friend for about 10 years. I was always on him – “why don’t we do a project together.” Nothing. He never wanted to do anything but bitch. I now have some new friends. Tom… Read more »
Mad Yale Grad May 14th, 2015 at 1:41 am M Simon, you mention a beta son, 2 alpha sons, and an FI daughter. What sexual and relationship advice would you give your daughter? Or what advice have you given her? You won’t be happy until you find a man you want to be dominated by. I got the usual SJW response. All FI “equality”. None the less – she is not happy despite being a 9.5 going on 10. She is not riding the carousel. But with the choices available to her – she isn’t happy. And what I have… Read more »
@rugby11ljh: “What about men wearing other people’s scent? Via cologne ?”
To be perfectly honest, I haven’t thought about it much, and when I have, haven’t quite understood the point. It’s obviously promoted to be something that makes men smell alpha, but it doesn’t do anything of the kind.
rugby11ljh
May 14th, 2015 at 1:41 am
@M Simon
10% makes me think where in a bad spot.
A very good spot. It used to be less than 1%. And the other 90%? Cultivate silence and intuition.
There is way more information than can be articulated. Thus silence to receive it and intuition to respond. Silence can be learned. Intuition must be trained – another learning.
“Programming and Meta-Programming The Human Bio-Computer” by Lily is helpful. Although his methods are currently in disrepute.
kfg
May 14th, 2015 at 2:03 am
Men smell Alpha the same way deer do. Look up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scent_gland
In men – testosterone is exuded in the crotch. Also armpits. When mine is running strong a shower ever 1/2 hour isn’t enough.
When I was growing up all the men smelled like that. I like it. But people tell me these days I don’t shower enough. As if I could.
But there have been studies. It attracts ovulating women.
And not just ordinary attraction. It makes them crazy.
The fm has seen it often enough. She is still amused when a woman gets nuts in my presence. In fact my making the fm “crazy” was how we got together. Still crazy after all these years. But without game “crazy” is temporary.
I have work to do. It has been extremely fun. I’ll be back on my next break.
At the moment I imagine I smell strongest of coffee, vanilla cavendish, bacon, sweat and machine lubricants. It’s been a long day.
M. Simon to daughter, “You won’t be happy until you find a man you want to be dominated by. ” Domination. The BDSM world is polyamorous. The vanilla world is becoming more and more so. One of my current girlfriends is 24. I asked her how she become interested in non-monogamy. She said “straight” women make out in college now. Largely in threesomes to impress a guy but that was her introduction to non-monogamy. Prior to that she dated the same guy all the way through high school. 50 years ago she would have married him. Today they parted ways… Read more »
M. Simon, “None the less – she is not happy despite being a 9.5 going on 10. She is not riding the carousel.”
How would you know?
This is just a half-truth. Women also had natural attrition. Those that were physically weak perished due to childbirth complications and illness, those that couldn’t control their hypergamous urges were killed by the vengeful men they tried to dupe, those that refused to submit to their male rulers were generally killed and those that failed to secure male provisioning for whatever reason usually died due to starvation and lack of care. This had a genetic culling effect that doesn’t exist in the modern world either. It wasn’t as big of an effect as the one on men, but it was… Read more »