Wives & Lovers

Wives

(h/t Zelscorpion for the screen cap)

In Women Behaving Badly I made mention of Dalrock’s standing assertions that the context of romantic love has superseded the condition of a committed monogamy – traditionally marriage – as an idealized goal-state. Essentially this represents a reversal of a previous intersexual dynamic that served as a check and balance of women’s innate Hypergamy:

What nearly all modern Christians have done is place romantic love above marriage.  Instead of seeing marriage as the moral context to pursue romantic love and sex, romantic love is now seen as the moral place to experience sex and marriage.  This inversion is subtle enough that no one seems to have noticed, but if you look for it you will see it everywhere.

Lifetime marriage, with separate defined roles for husband and wife and true commitment is what makes sex and romantic love moral in the biblical view.  In our new view, romantic love makes sex moral, and the purpose of marriage is to publicly declare that you are experiencing the highest form of romantic love.  Thus people now commonly refer to a wedding as “making our love official”.

The gradations we now apply to romantic love are symptomatic of the problem.  We take great care to distinguish between “pure love” or “true love” and mere “infatuation” or “puppy love”.

[…] Because it is love and not marriage which now confers morality upon sex, sex outside of marriage is now considered moral so long as you are in love.  Thus we have the modern harlot’s defense/anthem “but we were in love!”

I think what Dal was getting at with this (and I hope he’ll comment) has a much broader reach than just in Christian (“Churchian”) culture. I think this raising of romantic love to the highest order is more punctuated in a religious context because, doctrinally, it should be the reverse. In an objective secular context this reversal is all but taken for granted.

In an age of feminine social primacy women’s feelings of romance are at a premium. We matter of factly presume that it’s a man’s responsibility to not only invest himself in, and provide resources for, his wife and children’s wellbeing, but it’s also (almost exclusively) his burden of performance to stimulate and maintain his wife’s romantic interests.

I’ve argued the position that women (of today) don’t find the ‘good guy‘ – a man attempting to embody the best aspects of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks – a believable role. My assertion is that women expect and desire those aspects in different men at different times as needed, however, the social narrative still places that “best of both aspects” burden on a man who does commit to a woman in the long term.

With the exception of only the most adept, affluent and exceptional of men, this expectation is a sisyphean recipe for failure. No matter which aspect he excels in the other aspect potentially becomes his personal flaw. Although his personal strengths may compensate, feminine-primary social expectations place him in a no-win position.

Wives Hate Sex

Badpainter and Sun Wukong had an interesting exchange in this week’s comment thread:

Badpainter:

Newgal states clearly women must be sluts for men to get laid. This also means women must be sluts for women to get laid. Why must that be true? Because Newgal alludes to a dirty little truth so ingrained in the social consciousness it’s a cliché: wives hate sex. Therefore women, sluts and otherwise, get married so they can stop having sex except as necessary to get pregnant.

Think about it.

The girlfriend provides sex good enough to motivate a desire in the man to commit. After the wedding is a period of at least adequate sex followed by a decline to little or nothing if she can get away with this. When the wife becomes suitably frustrated/disenchanted with the marriage she changes title to divorcée and is again free to become a sexual creature.

The source of the problem is that women have very little sense of self that is internally derived therefore they play roles defined externally. These roles are proxies for their identities which barely exist. In 2015 wives are not defined as sexually giving, or sexual at all except for the honeymoon period. If the sexual wife exists in this culture it as the adulteress giving herself to men other than her husband.

Sun Wukong

Oh absolutely. The wife that hates sex is such a “thing” now I really think it’s what makes even Blue Pill guys at least pause on their way to the altar. “Do I really want to put a libido draining fat license on her finger?” I think that premise is largely built out of feminine cynicism about settling for [Beta Bucks]. They all know the script so well that they assume they’re going to marry a guy they don’t want to fuck. Imagine that: assuming you’re going to hate sex for the rest of your life.

What a horrendously awful view of a man you haven’t even met yet. And he’s not even met you but assumes he’ll be happily making love to you for the rest of his life and you’ll do the same. What a disconnect. Oh well, at least the kids will be happy right? Anybody?

What Badpainter and Sun have illustrated here is the direct result of placing a romantic condition for love as the prime requisite for a committed relationship. It’s important to grasp that any relationship founded on genuine desire will necessitate genuine passion and not a small amount of feral lust, however, it is exactly this pre-commitment (Alpha Fucks) sexual chemistry that will later become the exclusive responsibility of a man in that commitment.

The character that is a wife is now socially and popularly expected to move into a sexless, passionless and unexciting condition by being married today. All Epiphany Phase rationalizations aside, marriage is viewed as the end of the party. Being a wife is boring by comparison.

I explored this in detail in Beta Fucks and As Good As It Gets, but what I find ironic in light of Dalrock’s assertions about romance-primary intergender dynamics is that the very pretense of that romantic “true love” context that supposedly legitimizes sex is killed within the confines of marriage. In fact, women expect and anticipate that the sexual desire they find so important in that romantic context will necessarily die once they become a ‘wife’.

The pretext of being a ‘wife’ is a socially excusable expectation of progressively losing sexual affinity for the man she’s agrees to marry, so what woman wants to be a wife? Women become wives due to the necessities an ever-decreasing capacity to maintain being a lover requires of them.

I expect that most women will disagree with me on a personal level; it’s not in women’s best interest to acknowledge that wives hate sex – perpetuating the belief that sex gets better after marriage is a necessity men need to internalize in order to commit. Whether or not this is true for a woman on a personal basis isn’t my point. The point is that the societal message is one that marriage will necessarily kill a couples’ passionate sexual connection in comparison to their single, romance-based sexual connection.

Why ruin a perfectly good relationship with marriage?

The Myth of Mismatched Libidos

Once married, there are myriad social conventions already emplaced for a wife to rely upon as she moves from exciting singleness into mundane, but necessary, long-term commitment. Most of these she’s already been conditioned to expect she can rely on. ‘Mismatched Libidos’ is a common refrain for women (and marriage counselors) who come to a point where they can no longer palate the “duty sex” they felt responsible for in the beginnings of their marriage.

Her husband isn’t expected to provide the ‘tingles, but he’s still responsible for the failure to create them. As I said, only the most exceptional of men can effortlessly inspire the admiration necessary to maintain a woman’s Hypergamous interest. If you have a read of the screen cap Zel provided us with for this post you’ll get an idea of how those pre-made social conventions work in tandem with men’s default responsibility of satisfying a woman’s endless discontent.

The deference is always to the feminine, thus any problem (particularly sexual ones) he has with her become his personal issues and flaws. Any deviation, any dissatisfaction, with the ready-made social conventions set in place to excuse the female sexual strategy are solely his responsibility and his character flaws.

The ship is going down, and I’ve only got three life jackets. Who am I going to give them to? John, you learned to swim a long time ago, right?

In last week’s post comments I quoted the following confessional from Love Shack:

My wife called me today and was all excited about some beachfront apartment she saw. She wants us to buy it for vacations and such.

Now here I am .. I just turned 50. My youngest is going to college this year and I guess I just realized that I’m no longer bound to her.

The last 20 years has been a long series of quickies and 3 minutes handjobs every 3-4 weeks. In between, I spent my prime sexual years mostly masturbating to get off. Now that I’m 50, my drive is still good, but it’s not what it was.

I had tried everything I could think of over those 20 years to get things on track. I was exemplary with chores around the house, I was attentive to her emotional needs as far as I could anticipate them, and even if I do say so myself – I’ve kept myself in outstanding shape (although that was more for me).

On the other hand, I look back and I can hardly remember a time that she spontaneously gave me a neck rub, or cooked something just for me as opposed to all of us, and certainly not even attempting to do something special for me sexually (yeah, I have a minor kink or two).

But when she asked me to buy a beachfront place today – my immediate reaction was annoyance. I realized then that I feel resentful. I have decided to leave her. There is absolutely nothing she can do now to change anything because the past cannot be changed.

This man’s situation represents the ending phase of a chronic lack of admiration on his wife’s part. It would be easy to point out his role is one of being the dutiful unconsidered provider in his wife’s Frame, however, consideration is never a motivator of genuine desire for a woman. Only admiration and an ambient imagination of losing the focus of it inspires genuine desire.

Girl With A Dragonfly Tattoo had a post recently outlining the expectations of women interested in “seducing” a man. On GWADT’s blog what’s implied is that this man is in fact her husband to begin with. What makes her points so difficult for married women to digest is that they should ever need to make an effort to do so. The reason this is so alien a thought to married women is because the men they wanted to seduce were the men they knew before they became ‘wives’. Wives have no use for seduction, and particularly so with the Beta men they settled for around their Epiphany Phase. Seduction, compassion, appreciation (such as can be expected of a woman) only become a necessity when women are subjected to a real preoccupation with losing a valuable man – a man they admire.

Even in Frank Sinatra’s time wives had to be told to be lovers too.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Will
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And @bad painter

Yes. Basically yes to what you said above.

And @sun kuwong

I know you can be high value and blue pill. My comments are regarding high value and red pill aware men. That Is it

Zoe
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You don’t have a marriage without sex as far as I’m concerned. If a woman refuses to have sex with her husband, they should get help to find out why and fix it or he is completely justified in getting out of the marriage.

LiveFearless
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@Seraph

I am in a marriage which a lot of guys would view as not bad compared to many, but the “mismatched” libido phenomenon is certainly prevalent. My wife has nowhere near the level of interest in sex that I do. Only when she hits her ovulation phase does she express any sort of feral desire.

Was there a mismatched libido phenomenon with her prior to your marriage?

LiveFearless
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Rollo Tomassi

April 2nd, 2015 at 10:11 pm

Well, gentlemen, if you’re following today’s thread here’s an early gift for doing so:
http://amanindemandradio.podbean.com/e/episode-1-rollo-tomassi-interview/
~Rollo Tomassi

Thanks!

LiveFearless
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@Seraph If not, then you have your answer to your question: don’t men have their own version of “loving opportunistically”? By that I mean mostly along the sexual lines; ie, men are programmed to be able to take advantage of sexual opportunities whenever presented. Loving opportunistically: Matched libido becomes mismatched libido after marriage. You got married, you’ve been faithful, loving, doing all that you are supposed to do as a man. You’ve been faithful, you’re not sleeping around. So, no, the man ‘loving opportunistically’ doesn’t apply to what you’ve described. Why? You didn’t start off being the great husband, then… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@tsotha

Notice where she was “girlfriend” and not wife? If she left as a girlfriend, she’d lose everything and get nothing. I wouldn’t care; 9s would be lined up out the door. She has no leverage, no power, and no incentive to leave.

If she’s a wife, she now has the incentive to leave: she can become independently wealthy overnight for just spreading her legs. It’s really a simple case of economic incentives toward bad behavior, and penalties on good.

xxxxxxxxxx
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Sorry, but if guys are going to behave all needy like boys, then women won’t want to fuck them. Women do not want to fuck males who behave like their sons, because they do not want to fuck their sons. I believe women have more of an aversion of parent-child incest than men do. If you want something from your wives, then just demand it and then take it – but do it in a way that makes her feel attractive though.

sjfrellc
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Rollo: Another exceptional podcast. Great to hear your thoughts. A note to your assertion that the truth may set you free. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t painful. Note todays comment section. Some here have to make a note that they have to go through the Kubler Ross stages of grief for a loss (medical illness, death, loss of of girl, etc.). I recommend not dwelling on the stages and just work through them quickly. Denial Bargaining Anger Depression Acceptance I had an autoimmune chronic medical illness develop 25 years ago. One of the hallmarks of strengths I had at… Read more »

kfg
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Rollo: I saw the length of the interview and figured I’d start it tonight and finish it tomorrow, then ended up listening right through. Now I’m a bit over tired, but my boots and saddles are clean and conditioned, so I’ve got that going for me, which is nice.

midwestboi
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I’m optionless and have a spell of ONEitis??
I read all night. Did not answer her text. Told her I need a few days of space. She texted non stop. I never answered.
I don’t want to lose her, but I think I have to conquer that emotion.

BuenaVista
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midwestboi, her texting frantically will likely be followed up, first by wailing and seeking sympathy, and then by angrily shaming you (be a man!). When, or if, you can keep your shit together, next she’ll claim to understand that she’s “made mistakes” and “it’s hard to change” and you’re the absolute best and she’ll never ever ever repeat cycle. And “she just needs your help” and “maybe you need to change too” and, in this frantic effort to externalize responsibility for her own nature and choices, she might suggest “couples therapy.” Understand, her bottom line will be that *you* are… Read more »

TuffLuv
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@midwest

You did good. Don’t fold.

It seems like she’s a lost cause by what you describe, but you can certainly leverage the situation to gain some understanding.. Prove the RP.. Practice it’s theories.. have some more sex with her, whatever you want.

Hobbes
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Wow, hell of a post and hell of a comment thread. Between the responses and insights about the post, and the golden responses to midwestboi, this is gold! @ midwestboi= When I first came onto this sight a few years ago now, I was straddling the line between swallowing the red pill and trying to keep the blue pill in. I was seeing a woman and I remember consciously thinking I would give the BP one last chance. I commented here and on other sites trying to get answers, but was way too much in denial and anger to take… Read more »

sjfrellc
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MWB. You are not optionless. Far from it. Didn’t reading all night spark a few more options in your head? You are young. For all she just pulled on you, don’t you think you need to silent for more than a few days? Don’t lean in to her. Remember you still have the C-Card (Commitment) in your hand and she desperately wants it. It is the only remaining card of value in your hand of cards. Don’t waste it on her. Play your hand properly. ONEitis is a disease. You have to not have that emotion. If you have oneitis… Read more »

Aaron
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The girlfriend provides sex good enough to motivate a desire in the man to commit.

Well then the trick is too get the “bait” sex and then bail.

Sun Wukong
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@midwestboi

Did not answer her text. Told her I need a few days of space. She texted non stop. I never answered.

She knows she fucked up. Knows it.

You have established your Frame and she’s freaking out now. Do not let go of it no matter what you do. You’re going to become a better man for yourself alone and nobody, not even her, should be allowed to get in the way of that.

sjfrellc
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Midwestboi–

I am pro-marriage because of ego investment (and millions of dollars invested). But I locked down a high SMV girl that turned out to have excellent MMV. But that was before the time of Iphones and Facebook.

But,

Read this blog article from Fred on Everything “Matrimony, Holy or Otherwise, A Movable Concentrtion Camp” for a different perspective:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/DontMarry.shtml

Jeremy
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@midwestboi I don’t want to lose her, but I think I have to conquer that emotion. Ultimately only you can make the call on whether you “want” to lose her or not. Just never forget that you’re the prize. You’re the one to whom *SHE* must demonstrate her value to. It doesn’t sound like she’s in a mindset where she feels at all required to do that for you. If she takes action (not texting, action) to keep you, then she does perhaps have significant attraction to you. If she’s only trying to convince you to stay with her with… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong She knows she fucked up. Knows it. This is always a question in my mind, whether women actually understand the effects of their behavior on men or not. Consider their perspective. They’ve lived a life where the attention of the people around them was extremely easy to come by. Achieving some measure of ego validation is as easy as posting your best selfie on facebook. Getting people to do their bidding was trivial. Satisfying occasional sexual needs was essentially like having a sex drive at a lifetime-prepaid brothel. These women literally operate under a frame of reference that… Read more »

Anchorman
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Will,
Are you seriously suggesting that chicks don’t “flake” on Alphas?

Forge the Sky
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@Jeremy

Yeah, I think confusion is it. Girls I’ve known tend to be dumbstruck when some guy doesn’t line up with her FI expectations. It just doesn’t compute. Things should just work with the help of a cute smile and hair toss.

It’s projection, also. Like how BP guys will be astounded at how their diligent performing for a girl doesn’t get them relationship equity. That’s how things should work.

BuenaVista
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Oh, the (two) women I’ve known who have self-destructive, or relationship-destructive, habits know exactly when they’re ‘wrong.’ The challenge is disbelieving them when they say they’ll change. I’m generally red pill now. One of my girlfriends just blew up our relationship, for the fourth time, according to the same protocol. I schedule a trip or reward her with things I know matter to her; she then capriciously behaves in a extremely disrespectful, if not contemptuous manner. I shut her down, and she panics emotionally like no one I’ve ever seen. She’s a diplomat, a linguist, and very successful at work,… Read more »

Anchorman
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@Jeremy, I think along those same lines. Young women have one, maybe two, tactics they use to maintain relationships. Shaming is almost always effective. Shaming works like kryptonite on women and can work on men if the guy is BP and has a network of women to echo the shaming tactic. She fired her guns and expected you (MWB) to recoil and get back into the box she’s placed you. You didn’t and it’s confused her. Perhaps the best thing I’ve seen you do is ignore the texts. You know her mental hamster wheel is white hot from the friction… Read more »

BuenaVista
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MWB: For sure, years of reading and effort, to even feel comfortable on your feet, with a functional situational awareness, with a woman like this. It takes years just to realize when you are in the presence of a good woman capable of the sort of relationship you seek. Then more years to have the awareness and skills to keep such a relationship healthy and growing. (I’m not even convinced this latter is doable, but then the whole dread game thing is of less interest to me than others.) The flip side, MWB: it will take many more years, or… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy

Oh I didn’t say she gives a shit about his feelings. She probably doesn’t care if she hurt him. She knows she fucked things up for herself. She knows she tipped her hand, she just doesn’t know how much he saw. A woman in her position only cares about the man’s feelings as far as they influence her future. No further than that.

semi-alpha
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@midwestboi From my experience: When a woman lies about her sexual past and or her exes and her other affairs…. she is a deceitful, dangerous and should be dumped immediately. These are manipulation techniques. She wants to have her fun her way her shit. You are less than garbage to her. A woman that respects you doesn’t talk to exes. She does not lie. She does not play bullshit. She is your woman. Nothing will change with such a fickle egoistic creature. It is all about her. Does she care about you MWB? Think about it. What woman would be… Read more »

Jeremy
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@BuenaVista Five percent of the population are sociopathic monsters. I read somewhere, or heard somewhere recently that a study had found the number of sociopaths among us is actually quite high. I don’t know if the number I heard was 5% or higher, but I recall being somewhat dumbstruck at how prevalent they actually are. It means that literally everyone on earth is likely interacting with a sociopath once a day whether they know it or not. Now, obviously there are multiple degrees and dimensions of such conditions. This doesn’t mean that you’re meeting people who intend to murder every… Read more »

The Burninator
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“Life is more than about sex” “Relationships are more than sex” etc. These phrases from women are toxic. My response: “Yes, true. And a car is more than its gas tank. But try to drive a car successfully for any length of time without a gas tank.” Sexless wives deserve their fate when they are cheated on or divorced. They’ll never accept culpability, but they have all the blame nevertheless. That their frigid wives find soul crushing confusion and pain in the end should be cathartic to any man about to make the jump to a mistress or to divorce.… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong

Oh I didn’t say she gives a shit about his feelings.

You’re right, I was reading too much into that. What an embarrassing display of FI thinking coming from me. Again I fail to grasp the depths of the solipsism.

Hobbes
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“(And why wouldn’t a blue pill man be inclined to give his lover or wife “another chance”? Any self-made man makes LISTS of things he must improve, then rationally sets out to do the best he can. He doesn’t say, “I’ll just do the same old shit I know I shouldn’t. And learn how to ask forgiveness and pull heartstrings if I get caught.”)”- buena vista This is huge. No woman I have ever met thinks she did anything to really nuke a relationship as far as who she is and what she thinks she is entitled to. Women will… Read more »

Vulpine
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@ Forge the Sky I’m one over, to the west, across the lake. I had some hobby interaction with a “boi” from MI in the past, which is why I had asked. @anon & Jeremy I see what you guys are driving at, and, without the inside dope, I fully recognize the validity of your points regarding my own involvement in the situation. As I was building something in my shop yesterday, I had a while to consider the “litmus test” and validation angles, and reflect on having potentially been “the beta-in-waiting” in the past, and present. I can see… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Vulpine

The YOLO crowd are the absolute last people you want to be associating with if you’re homesteading. The worldviews are entirely incompatible, like being a Rabbi in Mecca. Keep your woman away from those people.

BuenaVista
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Agreed, Jeremy. We interact daily, in some professions, with some dangerous people. They do seem to be overrepresented in certain professions, though, which is an argument for not being in lower Manhattan when the SHTF.

The figure 4-5% is used by professionals. (A buddy runs a hospital for the criminally insane.) To my knowledge it’s not disputed much.

Vulpine
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Jeremy:

No doubt, night-and-day. She wants to remain rural, despite her rural friends lusting over the urban lifestyle. We’ve been there, done that, hate it. She can resist some of the toxic crap, but the “travel” stuff? “Boyfriend destroyer” comes to mind, and when it’s dropped by her GF’s? Ultra-harsh.

SweetWater
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Interesting. I’ve just started reading some of these posts. It feels a little over-complicated…this story is sadly an old story to me. And I wish that this guy could have seen this woman’s true personality sooner or, taking responsibilty for the actions of others as reactions to our own behaviour, acknowledge the imbalance in the relationship much earlier on and addressed it such that this resentment wouldn’t build. I think the over complication comes in when there’s an analysis of men versus women. I’ve watched many a woman devote her life to loving a man and doing everything she can… Read more »

Vulpine
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lol@”the Burninator”

Dammit… *grabs iPod* …now I gotta hear it.

“…burninating all the peoples,
and the thatch-roofed cottages!
THATCH-ROOFed COTTAGES!!!
(Duh-duhn-duhn-duh-DAH,
Duh-duhn-duhn-duh-DAH,
Duh-duhn-duhn-DUN-DAH-DAHNT)!”

“First, you make an “S”. Then, another “S”… ”

lol@”the Burninator”
Nice handle, man, nice.

Fred Flange, Mansplainer
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@Vulpine
Seriously: On the Lyme infections, here is a special ms. for you: have the doc run blood tests to see if any of the strains you got are different. I.E., Rocky Mountain version vs. Applalachian or Pacific. You may need a different treatment protocol (i.e., antibiotic cocktail) for that strain. I know someone this happened to, suffered for years until they tested for a strain from a different region of the USA, found it, and treated it. Unless you’ve already done this.

sgtted
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Should I forgive the lying? She changes her passwords weekly now (FB and Yahoo Messenger) and I’m sure she does what she likes when alone. I have no trust as is. If I ask her, she manipulates the conversation to make me feel like I’m an abuser and a busy body. She keeps claiming it is “just friends” that contact her. But, I dont think it is right. A caring nurturing woman would have stopped this without me saying anything. I guess I should walk away. You guys are right. I told my sister. She keeps claiming I’m jealous and… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy Empathy, which a Blue Pill reality teaches us to have, does have value in the Red Pill view of the world. So long as you stop at the point of understanding others (i.e. sense what they’re feeling but don’t try to identify with it), you can use that knowledge to form a picture of what their next objective(s) might be. Once you know somebody’s objectives, potential behaviors become evident, and your own strategy based on your objectives vs. their objectives and potential actions becomes clearer. I am, of course, still new to this line of thinking and still refining… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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I suppose also that part of what I’m saying is that all human beings are naturally selfish, even the ones that think they aren’t. We focus on female behavior here, but in the case of selfishness both sexes are equally so. Even the man sacrificing his life to save others is doing so out of his own selfish desires, whether those be to be a hero, to avoid being seen as a coward, or just because he can’t imagine living without the people he’s dying for so he’d rather they live without him. Always assume selfish motivations in all human… Read more »

Vulpine
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Thanks, Fred. A battery of tests is definitely in the future. It turns out that there are secondary, “same time” infections that could be possible that have similar, lasting effects. Apparently there is also Babesiosis and Human Granulocytic Anaplasmosis (HGA) that are conveyed by the same vector (ticks). Moreover, many of the issues I’m having are also the symptoms of being infected by hookworm. Since I was running around barefoot in Africa, at night, in dew-covered grass, hookworm is a very real possibility. The bottom of my foot was super-itchy on the plane ride home, so… Indeed, a blood test… Read more »

The Burninator
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@Vulpine Heh, thanks man. My son showed me it on YouTube years ago, funny shit. The whole “sexless wives” thing is increasing in volume on the internet every single year, and it by no means was a hard to find topic on the webs even ten years ago. I know the official “whys” of why men put up with it, but on a deep psychological level I can’t help but wonder why in the hell they don’t get up and leave. I get if you have kids and will get frivorce raped, but even then, once they hit 18 you… Read more »

SweetWater
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@Wukong

Very interesting. You open my eyes to look at myself in terms of selfishness.

Mr T
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women are made for two reasons

1, for sex.

2,for making babies. and the rest of the bull (love, caring )is irrelevant .

women know that , and that is all what it is.
a man should have ZERO doubt about it.

it is like having a horse who would not let you ride him , do you try to argue with the horse ? no , you get another horse.

when you beg your woman for sex , know damn well it is over .
the moment sex become a commodity , you are finished .

Emily L
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Emily L
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Rollo – happy belated birthday. I listened to the show while traveling last night, and it was great! I particularly enjoyed two things: (1) what you said about low value behavior, and (2) advice for raising children. Wrt low value behavior, one of the worst things a person can do is consistently demonstrate low value behavior (and not realize how bad it makes them look). It speaks volumes upon volumes about the person’s character, and seems to define people who don’t have their shit together. As for monitoring text messages, emails, etc, my first real bf, who, by objective societal… Read more »

bigboi
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bigboi
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@Emily

Thanks for getting on here to tell us what an angel you were and how that hot (9!!!) boyfriend chased your hot behind all over town. You wonderful.angelic creature. Desired by all men….
Guys I think the femiNazis are coming to the table. I’m getting popcorn.

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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Hey @sunwukong and @Seraph both your post where gold to my mind today and I really appreciate you both for saying what you said.

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Buena Vista:

“Oh, the (two) women I’ve known who have self-destructive, or relationship-destructive, habits know exactly when they’re ‘wrong.’ The challenge is disbelieving them when they say they’ll change….”

(replying to the whole comment, but no sense copying the whole thing) Good perspectives, thanks for that. I suppose their confusion arises not so much because they don’t know they’re doing something wrong but more because they don’t recognize that doing wrong things may have consequences.

@Vulpine:

Sounds like a rough road, man. I’ve had stress-based depression for like 6 months before and that was trial enough. Godspeed.

sjfrellc
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@Emily L How do you square your last paragraph with your second paragraph? How do you feel about women not giving consideration to men or his feelings? Good? Bad? Indifferent? It’s pretty apparent, not only from your mental poll, but from Rollo’s writing that this is true of feminine nature. I assume you were young and at your peak when you nexted your #9 boyfriend. Going from 9 to zero because of one personality defect (obviously, though, he must have had other flaws). Would you instantly next him for being jealous and not getting over his fears from the last… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Emily L

I hoped to think of examples proving otherwise, but if I were to estimate, for every 100 women I know, maybe 1 will genuinely give a hoot about a man/his feelings.

and sjfrellc calls bullshit where it should be called:

How do you square your last paragraph with your second paragraph?

I suspect your estimate includes one too many, if you’re saying that’s you.

Every woman that thinks she’s different is wrong. Very possibly well-intentioned, but still wrong.

LiveFearless
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Reblogged this on Livefearless and commented:
Why did “The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” by Rollo Tomassi make the Amazon.com top 10 along with Tony Robbins and Timothy Ferriss? Read this truthful post, and you’ll understand. No one has written truths that show the realities men face, until now.

SweetWater
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SweetWater
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@Emily, sjfrellic, Sun

Is it possible that, as Sun postulates, all individuals are intrinsically selfish and therefore unsympathetic to the feelings of others whether man or woman?

The Diplomat
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The Diplomat
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@midwestboi

You’re receiving pure gold, and it’s heartening that you are internalizing the information and taking positive action on your own behalf. I have rarely seen a more focused and helpful thread here at TRM.

At any point during the disconnecting/dumping process (that you are likely going to see all the way through) if you should falter or weaken—just listen to this sound clip for an extra boost of inspirational adrenaline:

http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/03/the-rush/

Badpainter
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Badpainter
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Emily demonstrates why a high value man has dread built in and is either actively spinning plates or taking applications. You see a “high value” man is devoid of jealousy, and demonstrates faith in his woman, and tosses her like yesterday’s fish at the first hint of misbehavior, or other other inadequacy. The important part is actively being jealous destroys value, and indicates the man’s dysfunctional value system in that he mate guards directly (spying) rather obliquely (dread). To the woman this looks like trust and faith in her good nature. It is isn’t, rather it’s a positive indifference where… Read more »

feeriker
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feeriker
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When you have that much money you have a target on your back. You get a prenup.

And since prenups in most states aren’t worth the paper they’re written on, the only conclusion to be drawn is that any man of such wealth who seeks marriage is just BEGGING for trouble (or is just plain stupid).

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@SweetWater

It’s not necessarily that they’re unsympathetic. It’s that sympathy will only come if/when the sympathizer can relate to your situation, appealing to their selfish nature for some reason. I.e. Rollo puts all this information up for free on the internet and cheap as he can in a book because he can relate to guys having problems with the issues he addresses, and it makes him feel good to do so. His motivations are entirely selfish, yet sympathetic.

Selfishness doesn’t rule out sympathy, it just motivates it in some cases.

funoldguy
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funoldguy
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Very full thread here. Once we get off the theory and on to the practical (in this case MWB) the whole RP wisdom comes into focus. Many thanks to Rollo and to all commenters here today. Sun, double thumbs up man! As an elder I grew up in a RP world. For awhile that changed as I was exposed to the ideals of ‘equality’ and such. My Dad said late in his life “They really fucked up when they gave them the vote!” I was appalled as I was BP at the time. Funny how much wiser he looks to… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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The issue was empathy. Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. Empathy might well generate antipathy. As well might being the subject of a demeaning sympathy.

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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Emily’s first real boyfriend didn’t realize or was unsuccessful in #3 of 48 Laws of Power: Law 3: Conceal your Intentions Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions. If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense. Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelope them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late. So Emily employed Law #36 Law 36: Disdain Things you cannot have: Ignoring them is the best Revenge By acknowledging a petty problem… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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“This girl sounds like she’s using you as beta bucks, she doesn’t sound willing to be honest with you. I can’t see how staying with her is at all good for you, especially from what you’ve told us.” Is the takeaway from this mess for me. Being a nasty old Hector, I also suspect she might be at base .. a … a .. Rayciss.Gasp! MWB, you’re the best provider she could wangle and persuade to remain on the subs’ bench, as the Elite WASPy guys I presume she tips her lance at are definitely not interested in getting shackled… Read more »

Johnycomelately
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Johnycomelately
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@midwestboi

Play it cool, let her back and go super beta, after a while when she’s comfortable again KEYLOGGER her equipment and then you’ll have your answer in black and white.

feeriker
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feeriker
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When I pointed that out last time, the rat-faced (HB2 — ugly as sin) woman confangled some story about her mother being a professional I never cease to be amazed at how dense women can be in never realizing that the LAST thing any man finds attractive about a woman is her “profession,” unless she’s a fashion model or an A-list porn star. For example, there is NO greater and faster boner-killer than an attractive looking woman who brags about the fact that she’s a lawyer (unless you’re a lawyer yourself; otherwise only an imbecile tries to take things any… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Emily’s post is interesting because it’s another example of a woman’s natural game. Women’s in-born habit seems to immediately demonstrate as high SMV as possible upon entering a space they believe is filled with high value males. Men have to learn to do this when dealing with women. Women seem to know this from birth. She had no reason to discuss the attractiveness of her BF, or herself. She did though. Seems like literally every single woman who comments here does this at some point. This is hilarious when you consider it is women who most often express frustration at… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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Badpainter
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Badpainter
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Jeremy – “Imagine if men would never leave women alone.”

But. BUT. But STREET HARASSMENT!!?!!

I guess that’s all just another projection.

Mr T.
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Mr T.
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To Emily . Here is the more honest version. Wrt low value behavior, one of the worst things a person can do is consistently demonstrate low value behavior (and not realize how bad it makes them look). For example : He put me on a pedestal, he believes all the crazy stuff I say, he really thought I was special, (which I never really believed I was).he never challenge my bullshit, he moves like a snake, I hated it when he trys to sound like a tough guy and I know he is a pussy. ” It speaks volumes upon… Read more »

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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@sjfrellc April 3rd, 2015 at 5:23 pm I didn’t state that correctly. Emily transgressed (she did not employed)Law #36 after her boyfriend transgressed Law #3 And Mr. Midwestboi, just remember when you want to get laid a few more times employ Law #13 with your ex-fiance. ” Law 13 When Asking for Help, Appeal to People’s Self-Interest,Never to their Mercy or Gratitude If you need to turn to an ally for help, do not bother to remind her of your past assistance and good deeds. She will find a way to ignore you. Instead, uncover something in your request, or… Read more »

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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sorry for the errors in Law 13, not turning the hims into hers. And the (she did not employ). I hate not having an edit function like on Vbulletin.

Pam
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Pam
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@ MrT Quite the breakdown you’ve made. I’m now interested in getting some high value input into why I am still single. Seems this is a good forum to ask. The man I was certain that I would marry broke things off to be “just friends” when I went away for college. I figured that it was just time that he needed to himself and so I waited and indeed, he came to visit and wanted back together. We were each other’s firsts, so I said that I would like that very much, but I would need to know if… Read more »

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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@Pam

“….and even the guy himself says that he was the one who fucked up…”

When men speak they do so so literally, not covertly like your girlfriends.
Take him at his word. He was not the one for you in a long term relationship. Women control access to their eggs. Unfortunately, men have access to commitment and he was not willing to give you his.

Did you not have subtle cues to his lack of commitment during your relationship?

Do you think he would marry you at his very young age?

Was he a guy who most any girl would want to get with?

Will
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Will
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@badpainter, what you said above is what I’ve been trying to get at basically.

@ANCHORMAN,

No I never said girls don’t “flake” on alphas? What?
Girls flake alllll the time for stupid reasons. Hell. So do I.
Girls will flake on a guy but if she does then she does, oh well. No need to overanalyze it. You realize that with the right girl, the girl who sees you as high value, YOU won’t be overanalyzing like this.

Will
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Will
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@MIDWEST I HOPE YOU READ THIS.

Has she denied you sex or does she ever say “idk no I have a stomach ache can we not…” Etc.????????

Answer that question. Think. Tell us.

If yes she has->start gaming other girls behind her back and distance emotionally
If not–> slowly let her back

Be honest with yourself. This answer will give you your decision on what to do

Pam
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Pam
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@skfrellc Once, when he tried to have some sort of serious talk with me and I sensed it and became sad. He later told me that he had tried to break things off, but I don’t know if he was already doing things or not at that point. There may have been other clues if I try to look at them that way, I guess…sometimes I feel like a naive idiot blissfully believing that he felt the same way as I did. He was very upset when I wasn’t available to talk on the phone every evening (he was in… Read more »

Hobbes
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Hobbes
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@Rollo- Happy Birthday,if a bit belated…I finally listened to your podcast with Steve, actually started it after work, but realized it was almost 2 hrs! Anyway, just finished it and I have to say, it was awesome. First off, Steve did a great job as host this time, excellent.. and I hope he reads your comments here and people start chiming in on the interview. He really gave the topic matter the treatment it deserved, the right balance of funny/light and taking it seriously What I really wanted to say though is that every time I hear you in an… Read more »

redlight
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redlight
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@pam

“Is there somewhere to start to look for where I went wrong?”

to start, what did you do for him?

The Diplomat
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The Diplomat
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@Pam

Not to be cliche, but he just wasn’t that into you. Read The Rational Male from front to back and understand what both men and women really need from each other—and how you can optimize your chances to make both worlds align in everyone’s favor (best as can be achieved, anyway). You’ll be happier.

Or, you can go read Jezebel, Cosmo, and watch The View. Of course, that pathway leads only to lots and lots of cats.

Glenn
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Glenn
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I just wrote the most maudlin, depressing post, wow. Got to shake that shit off – been in a dark place lately. End of winter in New Hampshire can get like that. I deleted it and figured I’d just ask other men here? Do you ever get overwhelmed by all this? As an older guy, 52, it’s really hard to look forward to much great for me in a Red Pill world as the only thing more disposable than a man in this world is an “old man”. Perhaps another way to put it is the “selfish prick” phase is… Read more »

Pam
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Pam
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@sjfellc “To start, what did you do for him?” At least a few things? I spent a lot of time travelling. Whether it was to his parents’ place when he was home or the hour train ride to his college. I also supported him when I had the opportunity, referring him to my father’s company during one of his co-op placements. And When he was struggling to get off of weed I massaged him down from his stress block. In terms of sordid details, I hate to put it out there, but… I put on a number of “shows”, inciting… Read more »

Pam
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Pam
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Pardon me, @redlight! That response was for you

kfg
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kfg
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“Is the purpose of life just to pursue pleasure?” There is no purpose of life. Life just is. You just are. Be. “All this feels so empty. ” What you are feeling is the absence of an illusion you wove your life around. It has nothing to do with the state of life itself. It is all what’s not in your head. When your head finds something else to fill itself with the empty feeling will go away. This does not mean that you will find that life has some other grand purpose that you were unaware of, just that… Read more »

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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@Glenn “I’m interested in how you guys deal with the existential angst of shedding a traditionalist worldview?” Seeing as how “Women do not lack a capacity to sympathize with male hardship or pain, but they categorically lack a capacity to empathize with uniquely male experiences.” in Rollo’s empathy thread, I would suggest the tack to take would be to get a group of vetted guys to hang out with. This tactic has saved me a bit a existential angst that I am not normally prone to. But none of us men are immune to it, what with the social norms… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . Jack Donovan’s book “The Way of Men” . . .”

Which you can find an echo of in my last sentence.

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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@Pam April 3rd, 2015 at 11:37 pm “Please be patient with me” Please do not feel like commentators in this blog are mean or will take advantage of your comments or say bad things to you. It is a blog where the vast majority of men have had a crisis due to female hind brains (evolutionary psychology) that don’t sync with today’s society. Basically they have been screwed. And a female lack of empathy for any thing a male experiences. Deti quote: ” Women cannot listen to Men talking about or working out their dating/mating/relationship issues or problems. Women reflexively… Read more »

sjfrellc
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@kfg “Yeah, but at least we’re the smartest and most capable monkeys, so we’ve got that going for us, which is nice. Do the other monkeys seem concerned about being monkeys? If they aren’t, why should you be? Maybe you just need to find the way to being good at being a monkey.” “” . . . Jack Donovan’s book “The Way of Men” . . .” Which you can find an echo of in my last sentence.” Not buying it kfg. Glenn deserves more advice than “maybe you just find the way to be good at being a monkey”.… Read more »

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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Edited to add that there is ample evidence in Glenn’s commentaries in the past that he might indeed have been excellent at “being good at being a man”. Hence the need to not tell him what he needs to do in that regard.
But the feminine side didn’t appreciate the good man he was. Because of lack of empathy.

Don’t go seeking empathy from the FI.

Pam
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Pam
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@sjfrellc

Thanks, I’ll try not to take things personally.

By mis-matches libido, I haven’t since found a guy who can keep up with me, not vice versa. Sorry for the confusion. I’m not good at talking about it as I come from a small prudish (Christian) town. Since moving for college, I haven’t been able to bond with any women enough to talk openly about it either, so, well, now I’m confused…I can’t imagine getting into a relationship (let alone marrying a guy?!) if you have to act as though you enjoy him physically? Seriously?

kfg
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kfg
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” Nor does he need to be told he “needs” to be good at being a man. ” Which is why I did nothing of the kind, although you implied it by recommending both the book and its solution to being good at being a man, so I’m really not sure what the beef is. What I told him was that he was going to have to find his own way, because only he is responsible for it now. “Facts are that he got screwed over by being a “Good Man” . . .” Most of us here have taken… Read more »

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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She IS my daughter’s age and I can’t follow the line of thought. And it scares me that she is confused. But I know why.

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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“What I told him was that he was going to have to find his own way, because only he is responsible for it now”

He’s going through existential angst and you say man up?
He asked a question. You gave the wrong answer.

kfg
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kfg
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“He’s going through existential angst and you say man up?”

No.

“He asked a question. You gave the wrong answer.”

I’m waiting for his take on that, not yours. It might take a few years for me to get the answer. It’s taken as long as 20 in the past.

And of course he can give his own take on your answer as well, which might resonate with him more. Given that you recommended Jack Donovan’s book and I concur, again, I’m not sure where the beef is.

Pam
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Pam
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Read the white knight post. Don’t want to go there, sorry if I elicited that response.

I will keep reading. I don’t think I should have jumped into the forum so quickly.

Will
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Will
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@pam if you can’t find guys with high sex drives for you than maybe you need to lose weight or something……or your clinging to guys who aren’t interested.

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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“I’m not sure where the beef is.” Men have enough empathy to recommend to their fellow tribal members more than just trite statements. There are virtual (online) tribes. And actual in person tribes. In person tribes carry more weight. Just a prescriptive recommendation to Glenn. Hand out with like minded, red pill, similar personality type men. I had a fling in pre-med school where I bided my time for a year before med school and after college. TL;DR I met with a wholesome,nice, cute platonic girl nurse known from college and her cute friend nurse and her cute boyfriend. We… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” In person tribes carry more weight. ”

I point I make repeatedly at RoK. Again, we concur.

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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@Hobbes Brother your last post hit the spot I concur would one day to thank you in person for how much that all resonated with me. It’s weird in a way when Rollo mentioned the mentoring I was thinking about my nephew… The one thing about the burden of performance was what kept me in the blue pill stage for a good chunk of my life. I was around people who kept hurting me for not being myself but something in my monkey brain knew I had to perform. It’s the most underared aspect of the red pill for me.… Read more »

The Diplomat
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The Diplomat
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@Pam This will be a difficult and prodigious amount to absorb, and, surprisingly, is not gender-specific in its wisdom and application. If you are for real, you will read and learn for the betterment of your life and for that of any man who is worth having. No one else in the mainstream media or the feelgoodosphere is going to tell you the truth. If you come to understand the truths that are spoken aloud and routinely tested here, you will greatly increase your chances of true fulfillment as a woman. Red Pill women are a coveted prize and as… Read more »

TheLastCoyote
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TheLastCoyote
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@Glenn – I get where you’re coming from, as I’m not far behind you in age (48). Wish I had an easy answer for you, but I don’t. I do know I need to find a group of guys to hang with and do stuff with. Which is hard to do here in the ‘burbs. The married guys here pretty much turned over their social calendars to their wives when they got married. And I just don’t run across that many single guys since most of the parents among my kids’ friends, teammates, etc. are married. About the only other… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn
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@sifrellc – Great advice, thank you. I am more connected to the men in my life than ever, I have one friend that i speak to almost every day. However I only see one or two of them a month. There is a difference between that and the group of guys you describe. I get it and it’s missing from my life. There is something intensely powerful about a group of men who are likeminded and supportive of each other involved in a shared doing of some sort. I bet most women would be jealous of that kind of friendship… Read more »

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