The Utility of Beta Men – Part II

Before I get started today I thought I’d relate a few things to think about from the first installment of this series.

No Neutral Balance

Reader Boxcar had a pertinent comment on last week’s thread:

Frankly, losing the “beta” qualities would make it difficult to live a happy, successful and fulfilling life. But they have become stigmatized because they are associated with men being used by women.

I used to lock horns about the necessity of Beta traits with Athol Kay on Married Man Sex Life back before women took over his messaging. The problem with this idea is that 80%+ of men in a feminine-primary social order, that has systematically engineered a majority of men to be predominantly Betas, possess all these Beta behavioral and psychological attributes in spades.

As such, there will always be a gross overemphasis on the value of those aspects. I don’t believe in a balance of Alpha to Beta traits. It’s my opinion that men should make Alpha traits their predominant, default set, only expressing Beta traits as necessary to maintain a minimum comfort level – and even then, this comfort level should only be apparent to reinforce a necessary anxiety level for a woman’s continued interest in a man.

Also, I believe there needs to be a distinction between Alpha and Beta behavioral sets and Alpha and Beta mindsets. Most men today are raised into a Beta mindset and this manifests in their behaviors. Vice versa for Alpha mindsets. However, that isn’t to say that a man of a predominantly Alpha mindset can’t deliberately display a Beta attribute in order to serve his own ends. Same with Beta men displaying a Alpha attributes. The problem with this lies in what is congruent with the overall perception of that man’s status to a woman.

In the case of the Australian guy whom Goldmund schooled in last week’s post, the woman already had a preconceived understanding that his mindset was that of a Beta. Had he displayed some brief “flash of Alpha” it would’ve seemed inauthentic and incongruous with her preconception. However, going from an Alpha preconception to a brief “flash of Beta” can be endearing and affirming for a woman.

Ergo, there is no neutral balance of Alpha and Beta that a woman will ever find attractive in a man. His mindset and behaviors must be predominantly and consistently Alpha to hold her Hypergamous sexual and relational interests. While occasional, strategic and brief expressions of a Beta-like trait are necessary for comfort, there is no advantage in a man trying to maintain some equilateral balance of Alpha to Beta, and if anything it only serves to confuse a woman about her estimate of your status. Moments of Vulnerability can be reassuring for women, but only when that vulnerability is uncharacteristic for a predominantly Alpha man.

Relational Equity

One very common hindbrain presumption most well-trained Betas have is a that their emotional, financial and loyalty investments in a woman will be appreciated and reciprocated by the women they invest in. This ‘pre’-sumption is integral to a mindset founded on the old books social contract. Beta men’s approach to intimacy going in already expects a woman to appreciate his investing in her as some quality that sets him apart from “typical guys who just want to bang her”.

So, when when a guy like Goldmund effortlessly seduces the woman that Aussie Guy has been investing so much into (like all-expense paid trips) it represent two very frustrating realities for him. The first, as I mentioned, is the destruction of his ego-investment in his old books mindset. The second is the sense of loss of so much relational investment he was trying to figure out how to get a return on. All of the preconditions he believed were necessary to get this woman’s intimacy are tossed out of the window when Goldmund arrives and she willingly and (to him) unconditionally becomes sexual with him.

He believed he had to earn her sex, but in no uncertain terms, along comes a guy who did almost nothing to earn it and she reflexively responds to him with sex. In prior posts I’ve proposed that women will break rules for Alpha men while creating and imposing new/more rules for Beta men to access her sexuality. I would expand this to say that Beta men will, via their preconditioning, impose those rules upon themselves before they even meet a woman with whom to invest themselves in.

The presumption of relational equity comes before a Beta even has a woman to invest in. This is the source of Aussie guy’s frustration. I covered this dynamic in Prewhipped and Betas in Waiting.

Giving Value

Commenter Trent Lane had an excellent insight about what ought or ought not to be a Red Pill aware man’s duty to his fellow, unenlightened Blue Pill man.

Ethic responsibilities in a red pill paradigm for those who are not in it is an interesting concept. If we all accept Red Pill principles like Hypergamy, AF/BB and so on as truth (which most of us do, since we‘re here) and as you advance in Game you see, know and can do more with social and intergender dynamics than 99% of the men around you.

You can use this for destruction and mayhem. You can use this to selfishly get your needs met with zero fucks given about anyone. Or you can use it to get your needs met AND give value to the people you interact with.

The question is, why should you?
The answer is, aside from metaphysical reasons like religion, Karma and so forth, in which you can chose to believe or not: you mainly do it for yourself.

By fucking others up this way you fuck yourself up. Is it possible to go down the route of destruction this way with zero fucks given about anyone and lead a happy, fulfilled life long term? Probably for some. More likely you‘ll end up fucked yourself, without purpose, unable to ever satisfy your raging narcissistic urges, burning out and getting more and more shallow as you chase the next kick.

Giving value makes you happier than taking value. It sounds corny like a cliche, but if long term happiness in life is your concern, it‘s true.

I’m going to jump off here because this comment speaks to what I want to cover next in this series – dealing with Blue Pill men in a Red Pill aware man’s life. Just as I’m inclined to tell guys of the MGTOW persuasion that there really is no exiting the game, so too is it next to impossible for the Red Pill aware man to insulate himself from having to deal with, work with, relate to, men who are thoroughly invested in a Blue Pill defined existence.

In the first part of this series I mentioned how Blue Pill orbiters are often an untapped resource of social proof for a Red Pill aware man. Sometimes all it takes to stand out in the crowd is to simply allow the mediocre to display their status and be ready to capitalize on it. It’s like the part of Game where once you get to attraction all you have to do is not fuck things up. That’s not to say Game doesn’t take effort, it does, but when you have a connection with a woman who herself has orbiters’ attention in spades it easy to see that her attraction cues and ego are built around quality not quantity.

I also mentioned in last week’s essay that actively AMOGing these guys can actually be counterproductive to Game. Women may not ever want to bang their orbiters or really have them mean anything more that easy attention, but on the same note they likely don’t want to have anything too cruel happen to them. Fortunately there are ‘lightest touch’ ways to use these guys’ inability (or willful rejection) to really embrace Red Pill awareness to your advantage if you have the art. There’s a tendency to want to help these orbiters, but I would say the real test is having the confidence to use them as SMV comparisons. Adopting an Amused Mastery with an orbiter is one such method – building social proof by artfully pointing out their Beta Game strategies. The risk you run is women taking this as arrogance on your part, at first, until that Beta confirms your measured analysis of him.

Betas at Work

One of the most arduous aspects of modern work life is having to cooperate with well-conditioned Blue Pill men. God forbid you have a business partner or a boss with whom your financial wellbeing depends. I would argue that the single most dangerous environment in which to attempt to ‘help’ a Blue Pill man with Red Pill awareness is in the workplace. For all the talk of mythical “glass ceilings” and back room boys clubs, modern corporate culture has been at the mercy of the Feminine Imperative’s influence for several decades now. This social environment was a Male Space that was invaded long ago by feminine-primary interests, but for the sake of this discussion I’d have readers consider the following: imagine a Blue Pill conditioned Beta who’s been educated and acculturated in feminine primacy (as equality) for the better part of his lifetime. Now, take that guy and put him into a workplace social structure, steeped in feminine-primary work laws, HR departments and corporate bylaws (all designed to avoid charges of endemic workplace sexism). Finally, base that man’s livelihood, the health of his marriage and the future wellbeing of his children on how well he adheres to that feminine-primary office culture and you get a guy who’s a veritable time bomb for any Red Pill aware coworker.

This reminds me of a great article in the Telegraph about how men are so afraid of sexual harassment accusations they resist the urge to extend the most basic courtesies to women in the workplace.

Elsesser cites examples of men who have been dragged in by their HR departments for simply opening a door for a female colleague or complimenting her on a new suit. “Stories like these spread around workplaces, instilling a fear that innocent remarks will be misinterpreted,” she says.

The upside to this situation is that a Red Pill savvy man can use the predictable foreknowledge of how a Blue Pill colleague will respond to various workplace circumstances to his advantage. While it may be prudent to accommodate that guy’s Blue Pill mindset at work, it also presents some opportunities to use Red Pill awareness and Game in a context that can advance your career. Female bosses are still female, and as noted earlier, the same dynamics you can use to ping social proof from a Blue Pill orbiter can similarly be used with a Blue Pill coworker and a female supervisor.

If you know a guy is trapped in a Blue Pill marriage, odds are he’s in a dead bedroom situation. If he’s got kids, especially a newborn, it’s fairly easy to predict his life priorities based on what we know of his Blue Pill mindset. Happy wife, happy life is probably his ego-investment. There’s quite a lot you can read from a Blue Pill coworker or supervisor, and as a Red Pill aware man, this puts you at a strategic advantage in the workplace. As such you are not at the disadvantage he is and can opt in on work opportunities his mindset and his life’s resultant conditions wont permit him to.

As a side note here, I should also mention that being Red Pill aware has various advantages in dealing with women in the workplace too. In the same vein as the Blue Pill supervisor, it’s important to get a ‘read’ on a female boss and how she interacts with male and female subordinates. Corporate culture is often the most visceral teacher when it comes to understanding intrasexual competition amongst women. However, as a Red Pill aware man we can also apply our predictive Red Pill Lens towards what most women in the workplace are experiencing in their lives. We know the common dissatisfaction professional women experience when it comes to their personal lives. We also know that even the married ones are likely to be discontent with husbands whom they can never feel comfortable in submitting themselves to – especially after 8-10 hours at an office where lesser men must submit to her and the greater men she is beholden to don’t see her as anything but an instrument for their own success. The trick is using this tactical understanding to your own benefit by getting inside their heads and making female nature work for you.

So, after all this we’re left with a few of considerations. The first is the degree of calculated risk a Red Pill man is comfortable in taking with a Blue Pill colleague. Even if the guy is a personal friend, there is always a risk that using your Red Pill Lens with him can backfire on you. There’s only one thing worse than a woman scorned and that’s a deeply committed Blue Pill guy who’s just had his mindset used against him by a superior player. Most will pass it off as the result of an unfair life, but others, the less stable Blue Pill guys, they can have an explosive potential.

Then there is the ever present ethical considerations that will always dog this question – should you do it? If Goldmund’s story from last week’s essay was an object lesson in mate poaching it was also a subjective lesson in the ethical consideration of it too. Much of what constitutes attractiveness in men to women is found on the Dark Triad personality traits. Sometimes Red Pill awareness and Game application gets called an education in psychopathy. Having written about Red Pill awareness for as long as I have, I know there’s far more to this, but to an initiated reader, one steeped in Blue Pill conditioning, I fully understand why it would look like psychopathy.

Now the question is, does a Red Pill man use his awareness to his advantage outside of the intersexual realm? In the case of using it with a female supervisor that might be an easy, yes, but in the case of using a Blue Pill man’s handicap of his mindset that answer may be subjective by order of degree. Even if there is no malice involved, and even if just by fact of having that awareness, a Red Pill man has a distinct advantage over men given to a Blue Pill belief set and their resultant life conditions.

So the question might be, are we our Beta brother’s keepers? Do we have an obligation to give Blue Pill men value or does that idea end where that man’s capacity to accept what Red Pill awareness offers him end? Obviously I have two books and five and a half years of blog posts all written with the intent of ultimately unplugging Blue Pill men and making them aware of the true nature of intersexual dynamism. My purpose has always been to give men the tools they need to do that, but is it my obligation to do so?

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kfg
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“Once you’ve got that down, you can take up knitting or whatever..” Heh. So I’ve mentioned that I’m a coffee house oriented musician and once upon a time I looked up some pictures from a place I had played to see if there was anything I liked and could use, and someone had taken a picture of me from the three quarter angle, so I didn’t know they were there. It was sitting at a table, wearing my black badass long coat and outback hat and – knitting. Paraphrasing the caption that had been given to it: “That’s alpha.” I… Read more »

kobayashii1681
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Important series Rollo…I think in the end of comes down to context. Also, you can’t save ’em all….demonstrate don’t explicate.

cheupez
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Typically, an alpha is a narcistic, psychopathic , machiavellian SOB. Unplugging guys is not that. It is a beta trait. All of us in here have unmistakably beta traits in us otherwise we wouldnt even bother.

kfg
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“Typically, an alpha is a narcistic, psychopathic , machiavellian SOB . . .”

. . . said the girl and the Delta the Alpha had just said “No” to.

stuffinbox
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@Keith

Ya definitely hang that stuff on the wall,they will either get it or find out the hard way.

How many times do we fall for the feminine scam inspite of all advice to the contrary?

Even after witnesing over and over there is this thought that creeps in,this time will be different. Then sure something different happens still not better,these young guys need all the help they can get at getting it.

First hang a bitches beware sign outside.

cheupez
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@kfg
Women like dark triad men without knowing they do. What guy wets the girls panties is what I call her alpha. The alpha may or may not say no. Her pussy does not give a fuck, it is wet already whichever way goe, says or does. I dont know what delta is.

BC
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Should the red-pilled attempt to help the blue-pilled?

Remember this: “There is no teaching; there is only learning.”

You cannot teach someone who will not learn. Until the person both ready *and* willing to learn, you cannot teach or help them in any way, and instead only expose yourself to potential negative consequences.

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@Keith In my experience with a son, I don’t think casting a wide net is a good idea. In other words, and in my opinion, trying to impart red pill knowledge to young boys other than your son can come back to bite you, when their mothers find out about it and object to it (notwithstanding advice given to you that it might lure their mothers to you). The FI has strong powers on these boys. And not just from their mothers, but from their feminized school system. Some of these boys with be clueless and cannot buy a clue.… Read more »

kfg
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“What guy wets the girls panties is what I call her alpha.”

Right, but what is all this about psychopathic SOB? Where does that come from? Who says so, and why?

Who benefits from calling men that women find sexual desirable those derogatory names, and how?

“I dont know what delta is.”

Beta Provider (as opposed to Beta Lieutenant of an Alpha).

kfg
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Primus: Dude, you’re a real ladies man.
Secundus: Thanks
Primus: You must be a really psychopathic SOB.
Secundus: WTF?

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1RrgcmdwYm97jwNUJ95MH-xV2JhVpWdBSnYp9o1A7Ecs/edit#slide=id.g34b2f46cb_068

stuffinbox
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@sjf @keith

“when their mothers find out about it and object to it”

Breaking bad my rosie red ass.

“Some of their Blue Pill Fathers might even want to punch you in the nose.”

Who cares.

Probably a bigger worry would be not setting rules of conduct in a weight room. Like minimum sets for maximum lifts,rotations,spotter mandates,proper lifting techniques and respect for others and their property. Just for starters.

Set a good example communicate with these boys parents and don’t let the lines go down.

ianironwood
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@SJF Thanks for the mention! I’m particularly proud of that piece. When I can access the blog again, I’m planning on updating it.

SJF
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“…communicate with these boys parents and don’t let the lines go down.” I wasn’t assuming that lines of communication were possible. Nor that some of these wussified boys want help. It starts from a situation report. But disclaimer, I grew my boy in an environment where things aren’t lost. Where team sports and weightlifting made a difference. Where a meritocracy recognized merit. And where women and men fit feminine and masculine roles in team sports mode. I’m not so sure that model still applies based on what I gleaned what is going on in The Field of the Church of… Read more »

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@IanIronWood What I like about you is that your writing skill was is/was great (obviously your forte was/is writing with skill. Super skilled writer): Because it distilled a tremendous amount of information into more small assimilated chunks of information. As did Athol Kay original stuff and BluePillProfessor’s stuff. Distilling to broad swath of the manosphere. Your Manosphere kindle piece/book helped me get up the learning curve faster and better. That distillation piece was absolutely fantastic (even though so much in the manosphere has changed since its writing). It wasn’t just what’s out there then, it had a great background on… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
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A fictionalised red pill series of short stories or comic strips would help younger (and some older) men disseminate the ideas expressed here. Imagine writing several characters who embodied feminism and the feminine imperative? The zeitgeist and settings that gave rise to these movements and the forces railed against them, bringing stagnation and decline. The exploration of the Alpha and beta mindsets could be achieved through various characters and placings. You could even get the iron rules in there. A cut scene where various characters go to a fount of wisdom persona (played by Henry Rollins if it’s serialised for… Read more »

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Hey guys, this topic might be irrelevant but I need help with a problematic love triangle at work and you guys are the best at what you do. Any advice is greatly appreciated. To keep it short: I recently started a new job. The entire crew consists of 4 males and 2 females, me included. Although it hasn’t been explicitly confirmed, I’m dead certain that one of the male coworkers is currently dating one of the female coworkers. They call each other cute nicknames, pda up the ass when they’re both at work, they buy each other food, a picture… Read more »

Lost Patrol
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@SJF comment of June 6, 2017 at 7:41 pm

Dead on balls accurate to what I’ve seen and tried, and well articulated as usual. Have some fun with it, calibrate, and just because you’re prepared for any counterattacks doesn’t mean he’s ready whoever the boy or young man may be. You have to guard for him while bringing him along.

Beta Men I & II moving into four digit comment territory and still holding high interest. Most useful.

Incubus_Rising
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@noeem93: Read the post along with Part 1 and do what the Aussie did, but at a lower scale … like text her three times a day or bring her coffee for two mornings in a row. She will lose interest in you and the boyfriend will hop off your dick.

anon
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“Right, but what is all this about psychopathic SOB?”

I think if one out of every five men (twenty percent, dat) our world would look significantly different.

anon
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Gah need an edit. If one out of every five men were psychopathic assholes, our world would look different. That’s a lot of psychopathic assholes running around.

SJF
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@noeem93 I’m having trouble in defusing the situation. I’m trying to find the most diplomatic option that will simultaneously assuage his competition anxiety (prompting him to no longer sees me as a threat) and having her cease all flirty behavior without inducing hate or contempt for me, which will consequently cause him to have contempt for me in the future. You are having trouble being Assertive. (which is not the same as masculine aggressiveness) The distinctions between assertiveness, aggressiveness and passivity are often hard to distinguish in real life, in real time, because of Social Conventions and keen awareness that… Read more »

SJF
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messed up the end blockquote after: “….in the future.”

kfg
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“The short stories could be set over different time periods (Tudor, American civil war etc etc) to show the cultural and evolutionary psychology of men and women.”

These stories have already been written as the literature of their times.

theasdgamer
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@Ton Thanks man, you’re awesome. @SJF She want’s you: to have you and him fight. She will gun for you either to get you or to make the other guy jealous. I totally missed this when reading the comment. Thanks. @kfg @cheupez @anon Psychopaths can’t really be leaders. No way the top 20% elite alphas are psychopaths. Experience…I was friends with a psychopath (I’ll call him “P”) for a while because I was curious. The dude was very needy to talk about a girl who dumped him. He wanted to talk every day. The guy wanted help with his business.… Read more »

theasdgamer
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correction:

“and ignored it.” should be “and I ignored it.”

stuffinbox
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@Keith The first time I ever approached the free weights area in the gym I was 13yo. The guys were working out and asked me if i wanted to lift,i replied yes. “Then first you must talk to Mr. Everlast” was the next step to lifting weights. Mr. Everlast was the PE teacher and before anyone could workout with the weights they had to have a sitdown in his office. Basically he would find out how serious you were and lay down his laws of lifting. Some of these were always have a spotter,keep your back straight,bend your knees,never lift… Read more »

kfg
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“No way the top 20% elite alphas are psychopaths.”

But they are subjected to shaming language and crab bucketing for being masculine.

Keith
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@SJF I will look a the ironwood stuff tonight. This boys aren’t wanted. That’s why they at my house all the time.im put some redpill stuff in the weight room and report back in few months will see if it improves the pedalastation and oneitis they all seem to suffer from. I don’t give a Fuck about these kids parents or what they think. One of boys mother is in jail for being a bottle shaker and from what I hear nobody’s gonna put money on her books. Another one lives down the road a peice with his grandparents cause… Read more »

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@ Keith

What you want to do is commendable.

It’s painfully apparent that a majority of The System doesn’t give one shit about anything male that doesn’t fall lockstep with ” following the rules “. The rules are part of the problem.

The only thing that will save these boys are other men who are 1) masculine 2) red pilled. Both of which are on the endangered species list.

So thank you for giving a fuck, and giving some thought.

stuffinbox
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Looking back on that group of inner city guys I grew up with,none of us were much wanted after chores. One guy from a UMC family is a banker his brother is an addict another man is a truck driver,another trail crew and wildland fire crew, none wound up in prison or gay.

Yollo Comanche
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@Keith You’ll probably have to end up teaching them some form of game. If for no other reason than to help them distinguish between a slice of pizza and a slice of pussy. Let’s say everything goes better than you’d have hoped and they become successful. Unless you show them how badly the local crop of worthless slut wants to consume them, they’ll get blown out of the air as soon as they leave for better things. None of this occurs in a vacuum. I’ve learned one thing more than any other since I’ve put on the Red Pill and… Read more »

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@Keith That changes things. I’d certainly push the edge for those boys. Teaching those boys how to act as men among other men in a group is just as important as teaching how to get with and act around women. A huge help in getting context for this is surely Jack Donovan’s ‘The Way of Men’. Having young boys and men not have their masculinity suppressed by the Feminine Imperative and Social conventions has a huge impact on their development into men. Not suppressing strength (heh, weightlifting), courage, mastery and honor among boys and young men in an honor group… Read more »

SJF
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The Way of Men book is a great aide for any mentor of young men to get context as to why as Blaximus says ” The Rules are a Big part of the Problem. And teaching the boys game as Yollo recommends is an antidote for them becoming listless anti-social losers. The best way to get them to feel as losers is to not have agency with women. As always, keep hammering away that women are only a complement to their life, not the focus of it. The best way for young men to have a life is to go… Read more »

Sentient
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Wala “When i’m late 40’s banging girls in their 20’s…it’s not exactly going to earn me points with Blue Pill guys struggling in their marriages or divorced guys where the best they can do is some wall-hitting man-hater….or younger guys who should be banging girls in their 20’s.” Yes, these guys will mostly hate on you. sour grapes, confronting their limitations, etc. par for the course. You face the same thing with any success, particularly out of the ordinary stuff. 80/20 rule again. 80% of guys will hate on you, in a passive aggressive manner usually, but that 20%… those… Read more »

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Noeem93

“I’m having trouble in defusing the situation. I’m trying to find the most diplomatic option that will simultaneously assuage his competition anxiety (prompting him to no longer sees me as a threat) and having her cease all flirty behavior without inducing hate or contempt for me, which will consequently cause him to have contempt for me in the future.”

Have you told them both you are gay?

ianironwood
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@Keith You are doing honorable work, Sir. I commend you. The reason that I say that is that when I was growing up, that was MY house. Papa and Mama Ironwood were one of the only fully-functioning married couples in my rural neighborhood, and our home became a kind of clubhouse for the Lost Boys – almost invariably sons of single-moms who more or less gave up on them when they hit 14. Some had been abused, some had been used by older siblings for criminal purposes, but if a boy needed a place to crash for a night or… Read more »

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Rollo, “Then there is the ever present ethical considerations that will always dog this question – should you do it? If Goldmund’s story from last week’s essay was an object lesson in mate poaching it was also a subjective lesson in the ethical consideration of it too. Much of what constitutes attractiveness in men to women is found on the Dark Triad personality traits. Sometimes Red Pill awareness and Game application gets called an education in psychopathy. Having written about Red Pill awareness for as long as I have, I know there’s far more to this, but to an initiated… Read more »

rugby11
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kfg
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” . . . if this isn’t the display of a psychopathic trait, can you explain what is?”

The classic example is pulling the wings off flies because watching them suffer brings joy.

Simply testing a social boundary, even to the point of transgressing it, is not, in itself, indicative of any sort of asocial personality disorder.

On the other hand, asserting that having a personal boundary violated is evidence that the violator was a psychopath – is.

theasdgamer
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So now I’m “steeped in Blue Pill conditioning” for suggesting it was a display of psychopathy to disregard social etiquette

Why does KJ pick on Goldmund? Why not pick on AussieBozo? Flying a girl halfway around the world in order to fuck her is basically just attempting to buy the services of a whore. Very high class social etiquette there. Amy Vanderbilt would certainly approve.

Social etiquette rules by and large are writ by the FI.

Yeah, KJ is very much a WK for the FI.

kfg
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“Why does KJ pick on Goldmund? Why not pick on AussieBozo?”

https://therationalmale.com/2017/05/31/the-utility-of-beta-men-part-i/comment-page-10/#comment-201199

Tiberius
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My stance on these types of questions has always been and always (probably) will be; If you have the ability to do good, you have the obligation to do good. Why? Positive absurdism is the best I got so far.

EhIntellect
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SFCTon: “Who the hell wants to be limited in their success and enjoyment in life?” Publicly discussed RP must be tactful, exquisitely meted. No need to be pushy. It’s weird tho. With former coworkers, I’ve overstepped and over the course of 5 months (essentially my time here) I ran myself out of a job. Fired for going RP, it came out in all my actions, didn’t let the little shit get to me anymore, stopped gossiping, shrugged off HR, treated females as women not coworkers, didn’t brook the BP, wasn’t the asshole but didn’t suffer fools as I once did,… Read more »

Roy Hobbs
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Still catching-up… But up thread, there’s a lot of “don’t owe BPs anything…” Bullshit. I was there- like many of us. Post-divorce, with kids, life is in a tailspin of WTF?!? Nobody (no guy I knew) had an answer- nobody pulled the blinders off or even held a candle in the dark. I tripped across TRM… I read, learned, said “holy crap” more than a few times & I’m still digesting. I wish someone- right or wrong- well-timed or not- had just pointed me here [a lot] earlier. That’s the anger [link to Rollo’s Anger Management post which I can’t… Read more »

EhIntellect
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@ Roy Hobbs

I don’t pretend to understand what you’ve been though. I’m prone to oversimplification but…

Question: Can you picture yourself today if you’d never known RP? Go back in time, all the same shit crashed down on you, and still pursuing a BP life?

I don’t know you, but I doubt it. It wasn’t the RP that saved you…it was you all along.

IDK, it sounds like you wanted it so bad and, well, you did it, and others can do it too.

EhIntellect
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TRM greased the skids.

kfg
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@Tiberius:

One of my stock jokes:

I’ve got good new and bad news.
The good news is that there is an alternative to nihilism.
The bad news is that it’s absurd.

Mineter
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When the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear…

I, too, stumbled upon TRM. Via MMSL. Rollo doesn’t need a billboard; that’d bring the wrong kind of attention. Better to just pay Google to be on the first page of results to choice search phrases like “why did my girlfriend cheat on me?” or “why won’t my wife have sex with me any more?”.

You’d then only those who are truly seeking to find you.

SFC Ton
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You got to pay the cost to be the boss EhInt

https://youtu.be/6HC94GVNftw

Roy Hobbs
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@EhIntellect Imagining myself today without RP… Best guess: I’d be running the same sysiphusian circuit I had the last couple decades: find unicorn- enjoy NRE- develop oneitis- enter LTR- work really-really hard at meeting all of the BP promised contracts- become ever-more frustrated at that shit not working- ride the pain of a dying relationship to the bottom- be depressed- sack-up & start the hunt for the next unicorn… Yea- it was me who saved me [*good lightbulb moment there- thanks]. But that savior me found TRM. What Rollo wrote made sense like nothing else had before- so yea; I… Read more »

EhIntellect
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We’re not alone. Roy Hobbs: “Best guess: I’d be running the same Sisyphean circuit I had the last couple decades: find unicorn- enjoy NRE- develop oneitis- enter LTR- work really-really hard at meeting all of the BP promised contracts- become ever-more frustrated at that shit not working- ride the pain of a dying relationship to the bottom- be depressed- sack-up & start the hunt for the next unicorn…What Rollo wrote made sense like nothing else had before- so yea; I wanted it.” EhIntellect 12/22/2016: “Without the manosphere? I’d fall away from her, periods of tension followed by anger and abuse,… Read more »

SJF
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@KFG “Why does KJ pick on Goldmund? Why not pick on AussieBozo?” That’s a curious and interesting question. Some observations: KJ is Blue Pill, and I think it is more that he doesn’t realize it (evident based on his duplicitous comments on last OP), than he is quick to deny it by his tough boy Sicilian, New Jersey admonitions about Golmund needed a tough guy threat. A prime example is his subcontext that Aussie had “dibs” on the girl, and in the link you made about KJ’s other earlier references, in which KJ deferred in two instances to other guys… Read more »

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@ Roy Hobbes That’s the anger [link to Rollo’s Anger Management post which I can’t find right now]- you’re pissed-off that nobody told you and you’re pissed-off you wasted precious years… pissed-off at yourself for not knowing any better. Rollo had a post called Anger Management in which he addressed your anger briefly, as a starting point to introduce the idea that feminism and main stream media would call Red Pill as motivated primarily by anger in order to label it misogynist, rather than a passing thing and that anger shouldn’t motivate red pill and game self improvement. But he… Read more »

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@ EhIntellect

“Without the manosphere? I’d fall away from her, periods of tension followed by anger and abuse, let my marriage languish, stay married,,,,,,,,, patiently dodge her tests, resenting her. What a waste of a life and I’m better than that.”

Hell Yes! That also mirrors my experience.

Roy Hobbs
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Thanks SJF Yep “Anger Management” was the Google linked post that brought me to TRM. https://therationalmale.com/2013/11/06/anger-management/ I more appreciate the context of the article now (back then I didn’t know what a Roosh was), but in that moment of my life, Rollo broke my blinders enough for this to hit me like a bolt: “Most of the men who’ve expressed a genuine anger with me aren’t angry with women, but rather they’re angry with themselves for having been blind to the Game that they’d been a part of for so long in their blue-pill ignorance. They’re angry that they hadn’t… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
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Funniest thing – what brought me to TRM was a mention of it in the reddit okcupid group. I still remember that first reading. Holly shit!

kfg
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@SJF: He has a ton of baggage piled on top of his honor. As a teen he was confronted by an older, dominant male and responded by tucking his tail between his legs and wrapping them around his pussy balls. He lost face, but cannot lose face. Ergo his lost face must in fact be defended as righteous if he is to face himself, and so . . . he cannot face himself. He’s locked in. There’s simply no way he can look at the situation and see that his own arguments are commutative, that they are just as easily… Read more »

Sentient
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theasdgamer
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@kfg @Sentient

Kid PussyBalls is just a punk.

SJF
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“…his own arguments are commutative, that they are just as easily be applied to support Goldmund’s actions.”

….damn, that’s a great (and precise) adjective to describe what he’s been arguing for and with.

Is This Thing On?
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Am I the only one that thinks Goldmund didn’t do anything at all to harm his status with his group? He proved his Alpha status to anyone paying attention. I’m sure there were more than a few that didn’t like it, but you know the males wanted to be him and the women wanted to be with him.

I say share the red pill first with your sons, then perhaps with your nephews. After that, reserve it for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

kfg
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@ITTO:

Commoners who are in awe of and wish they were the God King aren’t necessarily comfortable being around him.

Keith
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@ stuffinbox. I set rules down last nite. Buddy system no one works out alone. No dead lifts no squats period. Keep your shoes on and stuff like that. Mostly just gonna be bench , curl , shoulder press. And working on core on dip station. Simple stuff really. I told them I wanted them benching there body weight as a goal. That’s all I lift I’m not a body builder I just stay in shape. 170 and I max at 185. I just like to be able to put a plate on a bathroom sink when needed. I’m start… Read more »

rugby11
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People skills…

BearOx
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Am I the only one who thinks of The Scorpion and The Frog when considering offering the Red Pill to someone who hasn’t awoken to the truth of socio-sexual dynamics? I’ve gotten one friend to listen to TRM vols 1 and 2. He is one of the few I trust, but I’d also let that guy hold my winning lottery ticket. I have a clear hierarchy of priorities in my life. Me, my kids, my family, my friends, my acquaintances, my countrymen, then everyone else. If I offer the Red Pill to a coworker who is going through a rough… Read more »

Höllenhund
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A quote from Goldmund’s post: While we were out, I had asked her a question that had become popular to ask girls during the Playboy Summit: So, when was the last time you had sex? The reactions from this one had been fun to play with all weekend, and was an effective way to screen girls who were up for it, into you, and get them horny in the process. She responded perfectly with “oh my god, its been too long. Like three months.” “What?! You know that isn’t healthy right? Your hormones are all off balance, especially when you… Read more »

Sentient
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Hollenhund This was a point of contention with Yareally… the reality that not every hot [not sure what G’s girl looked like] <25YO girl was endlessly getting railed. There are a ton, especially from UMC communities – from my observations – that are pretty socially awkward themselves, and when you join this with the general betaness of the guys and their reluctance to push their sexual intent on the girls… you get a bucnh of mutual orbiters. Yeah they hang out and have "fun" – going to shows, movies, restaurants – in groups generally… but none of them are making… Read more »

Trent Lane
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re: Giving value ot ouf a Red Pill paradigm to people who are not in it and does this contribute to your own happiness: Actually Rollo himself is the very prime example of a guy who‘s doing this for what, +15 years now? So actually Rollo himself is one of the very few people who‘s qualified to answer if and if yes how much your work evolving around TRM, coming from a Red Pill mindset of giving value this way, is contributing to your own long term happiness in life. Is it mainly a struggle, an obligation you feel out… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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It is not your obligation nor anyone else’s. A consummate alpha wouldn’t give a shit. I hope your work is actually profitable to you. There is no glory or nobility in charity or martyrdom. Charity is the reciprocal of mendicancy and martyrdom is suicide. Both serve the functionalities of bribery and blackmail as well as a host of other sins antithetic to nature. However, your work does provide insight to those who are searching and seek to behave like the men that subconsciously exist within. A healthy male population is better formed by the challenges of natural competition and survival… Read more »

EhIntellect
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Re: sons I’ve told my boys frankly “I’d rather walk in, you fucking a girl in your bedrooms, than you tossing off to porn because it’s easier.” https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/26/buffers/ This next here wouldn’t of happened unless I’d Alpha’d up, TRM, taught game to my oldest: My son needed a second job, applied, got another diner serving job nearby. The boss made it clear he wasn’t comfortable with my oldest working somewhere else too, put him on “probation.” My boy quickly felt he was attempting a frame pull and within a week saw he was being paid less: poor traffic, poor tips.… Read more »

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@Keith

Good stuff man setting rules for your weight room for 15yo’s will keep them from getting hurt,and on your property. the whole idea is to get strong and stay strong not get injured at an early age,guidance is good.

Lol at the no squats,hope these guys cheat on that one when you aint looking,talk about some strong reverse psych.

Some of them will get the game and some won’t. Hat tip to you Keith.

stuffinbox
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@ Eh

Sounds as if your boys are doing well and developing game and gaydar, just a few more gray hairs for you is all it takes.

SJF
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“Lol at the no squats”

What’s the deal with that Keith?

I wish someone gave me the memo early on that that exercise is one of the cornerstones of generating the masculine and being masculine. What is your bias against the youngsters using that proxy exercise?

Mean Mr. Mustard
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Ahhhh yes that old career “glass ceiling” that women love to complain about.

In reality what happens is that they climb the ladder with the use and help of assorted enablers (both male and female) until they reach a point where competition is such that enablers can no longer help them and their competitors certainly won’t and they are forced to rely solely on their own smarts, skills, abilities etc. …. which can take them no further.

immoralgables
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@ YaReally @ Scray @ Culum @ Walawala I just read all of Scray’s posts on here from 2016. It made me really sad to see him and YaReally stop posting back in December 2016 Reading all of the comments and exchanges really moved me. I feel like I lost a couple buddies by not being able to see them comment and engage here anymore. If you’re reading this I just wanted to say thank you for all the value you added It’s prompted me to get into pickup and make that a part of my life again. Thank you… Read more »

sundawner
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@thedeti @asdgamer I do get it. But another reason why is that my friends are also clinging to the bluepill mentality. I am in the acceptance stage now. The break up with BPD made me go into nihilism. I discovered Jordan Peterson, Moleneyux, Illimitable Man, Rollo and I just realized how deep the feminine imperative really is. Politics too. Donald Trump vs Hillary alone just proved how much masculinity is hated on . How Islamists are snuck into Europe to destroy the nation as we know it because the feminists governments are craving Alphas and not the same men they… Read more »

SFC Ton
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I squat therefore I am

Or use to squat. Bit beyond me these days but if I could only do one lift it would be power cleans, if I could only do 2 it would be power cleans and and overhead presses, if three it would be power cleans, overhead presses and squats

Culum Struan
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@immoralgables – welcome to the Field Reports thread. I know what you mean – I still miss YaReally and Scray every time I post. I don’t want to rehash everything I’ve posted on before, but I just try to remember that there’s still a great community of guys here to share stuff with and learn from (best I’ve seen anywhere, even after YaReally and Scray left – perhaps Sedfast is as good, but nothing else comes close). And YaReally left his archive (well over 1000 pages of writing on every aspect of Game over 5 years) and all the resources… Read more »

kfg
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“One of the things he is talking about is how feminists and Islamists are connected because they hate the West and how women crave dominance, that is why they are bringing in Third World savages.”

There are no men at home, so they are demanding to be war brides. The solution is obvious: make them the war brides of the home side, but . . . there are no men at home, dear Liza, dear Liza.

Sentient
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Immoralgables

What’s up? What have you been up to? You used to post a lot at CH.

Keith
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Rollo I apologize about turning the comment section into gym class but it is part of men’s health. If I knew how much of a bitch of a home improvement project it was gonna be to stencil all this in my weight room Walls. I would of never started. The fuck was I thinking. It’s not really that big of deal as far as honor or commendable goes. If you see a turtle on top of a fence post you can bet your ass it got some help getting up there. This isn’t a cuckhold type of thing I have… Read more »

Sentient
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Keith

Go to a sign shop. Get vinyl signs.

Add Arnold “doing the Hard Work ™

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Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books For Cucks)
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I second that about the prospects for today’s maturing daughters.. My sproglette is a bit younger then Sensei’s but she reports the same, thing, though she is more copacetic about it because I warned her this would be so. Though in hee case the high school men have some semblance of masculinity amongst themselves. They are not all emotional whiners. But expressing any sort of attraction or dominance is Not Allowed. Combination of SJW yes means yes filtering down from colleges, and new-age parents pressing the “gentle boys” mindset. I am sure they are beating off to porn like Pee… Read more »

Seraph
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First, did not read the “Utility of Beta I” post early enough to comment there, so let me do so here. First, the girl wanted to fuck one guy, and not the other, and the latter was not pressing the matter anyway, so who’s at fault here. I did not get laid more often when I was younger because I did not: 1) Generate opportunities 2) Ignored/failed to recognize opportunities 3) Failing 1 and 2, sometimes failed to close out of some benighted sense of chivalry like Mr. Aussie It is kind of fucked up that somehow a complete stranger… Read more »

Seraph
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Ok, this did not take long… First, Rollo, thanks again for what you do. Have not been commenting much, but I still keep reading you, books and blog. So, what IS the responsibility of RP men to others, particularly BP? I think it’s basically informed by your basic outlook on responsibility to your fellow human beings, and as such, everyone will make their own determination. Just be honest about what that says about you. If you don’t give a fuck at all about anyone else, I get it, and of course that will answer the above question, but that is… Read more »

kfg
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Q: “Are you the kind of person who thinks it’s funny to steal a guy’s prostethic leg and watch him hobble around trying to find it?”

A: “I am not going,” said the surgeon, “to take away your crutches. I am going to cure you, and then you will throw the crutches away yourself.”

dr zipper
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Seraph, I like the way you think. Lotta good nuggets in your comments like… “To not only mock but to torment someone who is literally blind to certain realities, in no small part because society had conditioned them them to be blind to it, and who suffer for it.” Within the context of my own MPO, I would like to leave this world better than I found it. Call it a legacy, but really it’s just a hopeful goal in my list of goals and acts like a guideline when it comes to decision time. But really, how many options… Read more »

Tom
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@Rollo,

You hit the nail on the head concerning Athol Kay.

The worst thing I found on his blog was this weird obsession he had about men optimizing some kind of mix of what he called “good beta traits” with “good alpha traits.”

This is of course an absurdity.

Blaximus
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@ Seraph I played courtyard basketball with a guy that went on to play a short stint in the NBA. Lol, very short stint. The one on one play with him was an excruciating and embarrassing endeavor, and most games I couldn’t even score 2 points. … At first. After a couple of years of getting destroyed by him on the court I eventually began to be able to put a few points up, and avoid his rejecting my shots into the stratosphere. Still, never beat him once. But when playing with other guys with nominal skills, I began to… Read more »

SFC Ton
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LOL I have taken a freinds prosthetic leg and made him one legged over to get it back at the other end of the bar. Then we filled it with beer and tried to shotgun it. Man that was a colossal mistake. That shit was foul tasting. Lessons learned …………. Y’all are missing some steps in this shit about what we owe other men. #1) Social capital in the West was destroyed along time back. I know most dudes here freebased all sorts of liberal minded modernist bullshit but here it is…. Social capital comes from tribal affiliations, bllod bonds,… Read more »

dr zipper
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Ton, is there a #2?

jsolbakken
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Your story about basketball reminds me of the joke about the boy scout who stopped to put his tennis shoes on when the bear was chasing them. He knew he didn’t have to out run the bear, he only needed to out run the other boy scouts.

kfg
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” . . . is there a #2?”

2. GOTO 1

SFC Ton
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#2 social capital and the host. If we are playing the social capitail game then the host had some duties and responsibilities. Did the host brief the guy and tell him not to bang the Aussie chick? If he was briefed, it would have been way uncool to create problems between the host and one of his other freinds. In this case Aussie cuck. If he was not briefed, then the assumption would be she was in play Notice how I don’t say much about the chick. Odds are shit played out pretty much how she intened. She used the… Read more »

dr zipper
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Social capital is a bit like ‘relationship equity’ and ‘implied contract’ in that there’s some sort of accounting going on but not necessarily everyone is aware of their own participation and expected obligations

not a problem when everyone knows about it, otherwise somebody is getting fucked over

SFC Ton
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The unseen hand of human soical interactions not that aren’t strictly economic based

Tldr they have to be Bros for bro code to be in effect

Seraph
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@kfg

A: “I am not going,” said the surgeon, “to take away your crutches. I am going to cure you, and then you will throw the crutches away yourself.”

Your example and mine is the difference between engaging in a painful but neccessary lesson for growth, and engaging in cruelty by humiliating a person for fun and possibly doing hideous damage, damage which *might* blow back on your ass.

I already said bringing the hurt to Aussie guy to give him a chance to see the light was a GOOD thing.

Rubbing salt in his psychic wounds…not so much.

Just sayin’…

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