This week we had an interesting situation arise in the comment threads. A new(?) reader, Mitch, dropped in to recount his affair with a Ukrainian woman he’d become enamored with, emphasis mine:
I’d like to encourage men who still want a good wife to look East. As in, Russia, Ukraine and other former USSR counties. I cannot begin to tell you how encouraged and revitalized I am by this woman I met – and by most of the women I met and interacted with before I found “the One.”
Full stop. Whenever a man even casually mentions a woman as ‘the ONE‘ you know he’s still clinging to his Blue Pill, feminine-primary conditioning. This is your first signal of a man’s mindset and is a glaring Beta Tell.
Next Mitch moves on to qualify the object of his, still unmet, ONEitis:
The biggest difference between these women and western women are three things: 1) They have a strong desire to find “their Right Man”. Educated, smart, attractive women with careers find life is not meaningful without husband and family. 2) What they require from a man is reliability, respectfulness and willingness to provide for a family. They want to be treated respectfully and well, but they definitely want to be treated like a woman. 3) They have no ambivalence whatsoever about being appealing to their man.
They celebrate this about themselves, their femininity and sex appeal. These women are genuine, direct, and have no time for games and are generally not interested (but are quite aware of) western feminism. Interestingly, during Soviet times women were “emancipated” from the homes and out into the factory and collectives, and the government propaganda machine even downplayed and tried to discourage marriage. So these women really know what all this means, and since the collapse of the USSR, (which has been a mixed bag for them in many ways) they have enthusiastically embraced traditional gender and marriage relationships. In fact, my woman very explicitly told me early on that she had no interest in an egalitarian relationship – and she has been very clear about what she wants and expects from me, and I couldn’t be more delighted.
(I’ve spent a week with her in person, talk on Skype a couple times a day, am meeting her in Italy in 7 weeks, after which she comes back here, hopefully for good. Oh, and she’s gorgeous and awesome in a million different ways. Wish me luck…. )
Sounds like a Blue Pill dream come true, right? I haven’t done a case study in some time so I’m going to take Mitch’s situation here and riff on it a bit. I really think it’s good to review certain fundamentals for the sake of men who are new to my work, but also for Red Pill men to understand the Blue Pill way of thinking to better help men like Mitch to unplug.
In The Purple Pill I outlined the process by which previously Red Pill men degrade themselves back into their Blue Pill mindsets. Most do this in the same fashion as someone like Tucker Max. They renounce their Red Pill behaviors and, for the most part, make attempts to compartmentalize the harsh truths they know women would rather they didn’t know or expose to other men. Guys of this Purple Pill stripe still cling (or return to clinging) to their old Blue Pill idealism in the hopes that the goals their old conditioning taught them was still possible.
This Purple Pill man still has had some exposure to, and practice with, a Red Pill awareness. The difference is that due to some life circumstance (unplanned or “accidental” pregnancy) or some part of his Beta self he was unable to disconnect from (the soul mate myth) in his Red Pill awareness.
However, Mitch represents another type of Purple Pill man. This is the guy who’s become Red Pill aware, but believes he can make his Blue Pill idealism work in a Red Pill context from the outset of his partial unplugging. As a result, there’s a certain degree of affirmation seeking men of this stripe look for from other men in Red Pill forums. That affirmation is entirely based in the false hope that he can use Red Pill truths to achieve Blue Pill goals. Thus, he looks for affirmation in this feminine-primary idealism without realizing he’s really just asking Red Pill men for their permission to persist in his Blue Pill hope while calling it Red Pill for himself.
Mitch goes on over several comments in an effort to get this permission to define his ONEitis as a Red Pill goal by qualifying her in every Blue Pill way imaginable. Needless to say the stink of Blue Pill conditioning wasn’t hard for my forum members to identify. He insists he’s read my work well enough to be considered Red Pill aware, but his actions and attitudes with this woman tell a much different story.
When called out on this fact we get the obligatory, “Lol…you guys can go fuck yourselves..”
Lol…you guys can go fuck yourselves. I appreciate where ya’ll are coming from, though. Trying to save me from myself. And i appreciate how naive my post must sound to a bunch of hard core red pillers like yourselves. However, I am not nearly as inexperienced with women and LTR’s as ya’ll assume. I have learned a lot from red pill in general and this site in particular – it’s very insightful and helpful, and I’ve adjusted my attitude and posture toward women because of it. At the same time, though, it strikes me that many of you are taking on red pill ideas as a kind of ideology, and that’s its own kind of danger. The absolute certainty that ya’ll think you know all you need to know about me and my woman and my relationship from that very brief post is what I mean. As if red-pill theory, or whatever it is, completely and concisely explains the total dynamic between a man and woman. Red pill explains a lot of things really well, but certainly not the totality of the mystery that is between a man a woman in a marriage. If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then I feel sorry for you. Red pill helps me tremendously in seeing more clearly what is going on. I totally get that I am a beta provider for her, that a large part of my appeal is what I can provide, and I get that she is turned on by alpha traits. Both of these things can coexist in the same person. Understanding this and what’s behind it makes me feel less anxious and insecure about that, because I’m more clear about what to do.
Also, being a beta provider does not make me a bitch. Providing for my woman and family is a large part of what makes me a man, and I derive great satisfaction and pride in doing so.
Also, I am not in any way “settling” for a 44 yo woman. Younger women were/are available to me, but that is not what i choose.There’s a lot more to life than fucks and bucks, but if that’s all it is for you, then this is the type of woman you will attract. In a relationship, what you get is what you are. If I can’t find a way to live with an open heart, then I don’t know what the fucking point is. But, to each his own.
I don’t get mad with responses like this. It’s really all part of men’s unplugging. I’ve said it a million times, unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work. Understand this now if you ever hope to aid a guy in coming to the Red Pill, there will always be a lot of anger, denial and frustration that comes from the disillusionment of breaking a man’s ego-investment in a Blue Pill mindset that he’s been conditioned to for the better part of his lifetime.
I found Mitch’s story engaging because it so faithfully follows the progression of rationales Purple Pill men will use in order to hold fast to their old, comfortable mindset. Thus, you see the binary extremes of anything that contradicts those old investments:
The absolute certainty that ya’ll think you know all you need to know about me and my woman and my relationship from that very brief post is what I mean. As if red-pill theory, or whatever it is, completely and concisely explains the total dynamic between a man and woman.
Here we see the attempt to cast doubt, but also a plea for confirmation of theory. He wants to believe that because there are no hard-fast conclusions of the uncomfortable aspects of the Red Pill that the possibility exists that his Blue Pill hopes may still be valid.
Red pill explains a lot of things really well, but certainly not the totality of the mystery that is between a man a woman in a marriage. If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then I feel sorry for you.
Disqualification, but wrapped in the magical romantic language of Blue Pill idealism. Add a bit of pseudo-heartfelt pity for the men who wont reaffirm his idealisms.
Red pill helps me tremendously in seeing more clearly what is going on. I totally get that I am a beta provider for her, that a large part of my appeal is what I can provide, and I get that she is turned on by alpha traits. Both of these things can coexist in the same person. Understanding this and what’s behind it makes me feel less anxious and insecure about that, because I’m more clear about what to do.
Later on in the comments, Mitch tries to reassure me he’s thoroughly read my essays, but it’s obvious he hasn’t read The Myth of the Good Guy after making this comment. Most of his remaining comments are variations of this, to which he’s entirely oblivious of how apparent his Blue Pill nature is to the forum.
Feel free to read through the conversations, but they all came to a head in his most recent admission here:
Guys, thanks for sticking with me.
I sent her a text this morning that basically said I am going to fuck you in Italy. I love you, and this is what’s going down. We’ve had a number of conversations about sex before, about what didn’t happen in Odessa, etc. But I never pushed too hard. She says can we talk. So I skype her. And we go round and round about this. I’m staying calm, even sweet. But firm. The solipsism is off the charts – of course I’d seen this every time we argue, but eh, she’s a woman, what else is new? I just keep gently and firmly sticking to the topic, and she’s doing all she can to change it. Lashing out at me, saying I’m mentally ill, she thought I was different than other men, I’m trying to rape her, etc. Saying I’ve blown our relationship, she has all what I want, but I’m blowing it, good bye. On and on. Jesus Christ.
I’m now strongly suspecting bpd. These women are a fucking magnet for me. I did have interactions with very normal, genuine nice women over there – and tended to be religious – one very nice woman that I enjoyed talking to was very upfront from the beginning that she’s strong Catholic and will not have sex before marriage. I respect that completely. That didn’t even chase me off. It’s just that this other woman was so much more compelling. If she is bpd, she is the third experience I’ve had with this type. They are like catnip to me. Now that I see it, I’m definitely not going down that road with her because I’m all too aware of where it inevitably leads. Good. But, still..fuck!
Mitch, you’re not going to like what I’m about to type here for you, but just know that it’s a necessary kick in the ass and I’m in no way trying to flame you. As I mentioned in my last comment to you, you really need to read all of the links in my Year One collection.
I’m going to pick apart your latest report about this girl you ‘love’ and I think you should really give yourself some time to consider what you think has been your half-measure unplugging.
I sent her a text this morning that basically said I am going to fuck you in Italy. I love you, and this is what’s going down.We’ve had a number of conversations about sex before, about what didn’t happen in Odessa, etc. But I never pushed too hard. She says can we talk.
Two things here; first, you are using texting as a Buffer. This is what I would expect from a teenager or someone with an adolescent social skill set. Texting you ‘love’ her and convincing yourself you do after no more than a week of in-person interaction is a major, jumbotron-scale signal that you are not only Beta and Blue Pill, but also you subscribe to a scarcity mentality. This is rule one.
Secondly, you cannot negotiate genuine desire. You having conversations about how you’re going to fuck her in Italy are evidence that you really have no clue how Game works. Your pre-sex talks about having sex are again a major signal of your Blue Pill headspace:
Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.
When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. She will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, fuck the shit out of you and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife comes home early from work – women who want to fuck will find a way to fuck. The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.
Your conversations are all evidence that you buy into the ‘open communication’ Blue Pill narrative.
So I skype her. And we go round and round about this. I’m staying calm, even sweet. [Beta] But firm.[still thinking RP men will say that’s Alpha] The solipsism is off the charts – of course I’d seen this every time we argue, but eh, she’s a woman, what else is new?[attempt to confirm RP terms, and another plea for affirmation]
I just keep gently and firmly sticking to the topic, and she’s doing all she can to change it. Lashing out at me, saying I’m mentally ill, she thought I was different than other men, I’m trying to rape her, etc. Saying I’ve blown our relationship, she has all what I want, but I’m blowing it, good bye. On and on. Jesus Christ.
All this woman is doing is confirming your status as a Beta for her. Likely she thought you’d be an easy mark, but your overt insistence on preplanned, negotiated and scheduled sex has made her lose interest in you even as a Beta provider.
I’m now strongly suspecting bpd. These women are a fucking magnet for me. I did have interactions with very normal, genuine nice women over there – and tended to be religious – one very nice woman that I enjoyed talking to was very upfront from the beginning that she’s strong Catholic and will not have sex before marriage. I respect that completely.
This woman is not suffering from BPD, she’s responding how most women would when they have a man’s Beta status overtly confirmed for them. You believe these ‘types’ of women are drawn to you when in fact you have the same effect on every woman when you overtly demonstrate your lower value to them by sticking to your Beta Game while thinking it’s some how the correct, Red Pill way of dealing with women.
The only reason you believe you respect a Catholic woman is because you have no choice but to respect her because she reaffirms your Blue Pill nature, but still wont fuck you.
I’m going to invite the commenters to address Mitch’s situation in the comment thread, but I’ll start here by saying you really need to thoroughly read through my posts (or books if you prefer). You are in no way ‘woke’ to a Red Pill awareness Mitch. For as much as you believe you are, your behaviors, your mindset, all point to a guy who’s read some Red Pill ideas, but can’t disconnect from his Blue Pill hopes and attitudes.
You’re trying to force fit a Blue Pill hope into a Red Pill reality. This is why the last 3 women you’ve reported you’ve been involved with have been the same. It’s not them, it’s you.
Again, I didn’t write this post to flame you, but rather to let you serve as an example of how pervasive a Blue Pill mindset is, and how it retards a man’s social intelligence and his maturation.
@IAS I agree with the threshold thing, but I don’t understand why you and others much better versed in Red Pill would think that pLTRs don’t have Game benefits over marriage. it does for ‘just dating’…lol… but kids change everything… it’s not just a popular meme…lol… Seems like a very direct consequence of RP fundamentals that I listed already. I don’t think it is just me being a Red Pill rookie and missing something. the only thing you are ‘missing’ is that kids really do change everything… HOW that plays out doesn’t seem to have had the same amount of… Read more »
IAS “I agree with the threshold thing, but I don’t understand why you and others much better versed in Red Pill would think that pLTRs don’t have Game benefits over marriage. Seems like a very direct consequence of RP fundamentals that I listed already.” I’ve been thinking about that point for weeks now, because it didn’t seem to add up. Starting with dread, I think sentient just made some seriously good points: “Why? Because women think like women and they KNOW that if YOU are not around THEM some OTHER craft bitch MAY BE and how that can go down… Read more »
@ IAS ( again ) ” With that in mind, beyond YaReally which clearly thinks dread is harder if married, I think Rollo himself does agree that it is harder to create Dread if you are legally married (@Rollo please step in if I’m misrepresenting you). Certainly that is pretty much the consensus in the MRP reddit, that it is harder to dread.” warning: Humblebragging ahead Ok, I’ll use myself as an example to try to get some points about married dread. I go out with my wife quite often. I enjoy her company, and she enjoys mine. We have… Read more »
Maybe a better way to put it is: most of the attraction triggers or DHVs are INDEPENDENT of the AF-BB, lover-provider spectrum.
You can trigger some, like preselection, through lover MEANS (her coming over and seeing used condoms all over your bedroom) or otherwise (her simply witnessing you being good with women(waitresses, shop clerks (hired guns)))
Novaseeker can correct me on the following if he wants to. Anti-Family Court is not really a court under the US Constitution. It’s a court of equity, a court of “fairness”, not so much a court of law. A man hauled into this court doesn’t have any of the Constitutional rights he’d have in even a low level Justice of the Peace court. Murderers have more rights than a husband in anti-family court. A man in front of an anti-Family court judge cannot confront his accuser(s). He can be made to testify against himself. All kinds of spurious junk can… Read more »
@ AR Good stuff man. And I don’t ” hate ” on Fathers4Justice really, I just think that they need to do more of this: http://www.fathers-4-justice.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MANIFESTO-FACT-SHEET.jpg As opposed to this: Although it would be accurate if the Judge in antifamily court were to dress like Bane, they do not. They are serious about throttling men that come before them. It is indeed imperative that men wishing to have children outside of marriage understand how the ” justice ” system will treat them. Again, not advocating for marriage here, but a man must know what he’s up against as a man… Read more »
O/T kind of- I’ve been recently maintaining that if men do not bond together and help one another and fight the insane man-hate that’s becoming prevalent, it’s only a matter of time before all men will find themselves subject to this type of shit – [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JfYdGpolS8&w=640&h=360%5D The ” laws ” will be used against you in an ever increasing manner. It is always a dangerous idea when men are ” targeted ” in some fashion. Imo, (anti)family court is the first salvo. If left unchallenged, it will escalate until just being male is an offense. Lol….ask me how I… Read more »
A quick thought on who gets screwed the worst in anti Family court. Based on my totally non-random sampling I sorta suspect it is the situational Alphas who are most likely to get a truly epic beating, the “man comes home from work to find the locks changed, a cop car waiting, he gets 10 minutes to pack his bags and leave” sort of thing. One man I know who has a lot of command presence, not surprising in a veteran of combat, married an East Asian woman who had two children then got unhaaaapy and frivorced him to the… Read more »
Still making my way to the end of these comments, and of the many things I’ve noticed and wanted to say…
@ The Diplomat
“Anyone else gotten this vibe from ‘Mitch?’”
LOL yes, particularly with the whole “you men” thing. Alright back to catching up lmao
@HABD: thanks, I think I just need to figure it out for myself at this point, no one else can do that for me. If you are interested here is my s(h)ituation described in a post some weeks ago: https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/05/the-best-of-the-rational-male-year-5/comment-page-3/#comment-168838 @Sentient and the rest: I think there is always going to be a “inner game” difference between (irrational?) self-confidence as in “Yes, I could totally pull those hotties and bang them if I want to, I just don’t” and the solid proof of having just done it. Sentient, in your FR of your first extra-marital ONS, I interpreted that the… Read more »
I just finished reading through this thread and I FINALLY have some clarity on what the older married guys have been saying -especially HABD’s breakdown (and some of Blax and Sentient’s talk about triggering dread when married and how being married or not is irrelevant). The KEY point I get from HABD is that a pLTR only helps with attraction IF you can next the girl by virtue of NOT being married. But if you have a kid with her, you CAN’T next her and are in fact tied to her MORE strongly than being married, so the pLTR (unmarried)… Read more »
IAS I crossed that line once, had an EM affair. it was to have fun that was sorely lacking at home but as much as anything it was kind of to confirm that “I still had it”. Which I did, she was a little hottie which just plain feels good to score that, especially away from another man who on the face of it seemed pretty sorted out but was actually BB all the way. Ultimately when wife found out about it, it got rebooted as dread writ large. I will say however, that between the time I did it… Read more »
IAS – you are seizing upon one little thing in the whole scheme of reframing your relationship… don’t ignore the much larger part of the story… you can see another snippet here… all the other kind of things you need to do… “the work”… https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/asshole-game-week-the-relationship-reset/ The Chateau has plenty of readers already in relationships and (lucifer help you) marriage. Many of them would like to know how to apply asshole game to the women they love and are afraid to drive into boredom because of legal ramifications. The rules of the Game don’t change when you decide to keep a… Read more »
@IAS
Seriously dude, do whatever you want. Life is short. Anyone that judges you has their own issues.
“Anyone that judges you has their own issues.”
Take up my cycling offer and I will judge the shit out of you, like you’ve never been judged before.
Because I will care about you.
@Sentient How do you view yourself? That is how your subcoms look. Consider a comparison of my buddy and me. Exactly. I have a buddy who thinks that he’s super alpha because he has banged over 50 women, although most are 5s and just a few 6s and nothing higher. When a fattie called him for a hookup, he ended our night of drinking beer/hanging out to go fuck her after a very short time. Otoh, when Mrs. Gamer instigated me for a fuck a different night, I told her that I already had plans, sorry. I have only banged… Read more »
@IAS read through your situ… some basic points (random) to ponder… you don’t HAVE to ‘cheat’ if you are uncomfortable doing that… (and don’t take this as advocacy…lol…i’m just pointing this out…) but that feeling of ‘cheating’ you have is the FI pushing on you… bc you feel like you are ‘not entitled to get what you want’… if you don’t have kids… and never WANT kids… you probably shouldn’t be married anyway… and ESPECIALLY if SHE really DOES want kids… bc then one of you is living a less than optimal life… and ESPECIALLY if she is closing out… Read more »
@Sentient:
The classic:
Her: Pass me the salt.
You (with amused mastery): Because your arms are broken.
@Agent P at 7:27am
props… THAT’S how you do it…lol…
don’t forget that you ‘make sure’ (even if the wife does that stuff mostly) the kids get fed, bathed, laundry gets done, groceries are gotten (helps to do this a couple times…if not always… take the kids with for an outing…lol), house gets cleaned, etc… (and especially meds get administered properly…). also, kids up and ready for school, kids put to bed/read to… physical AND emotional health…
and props on being great dad!…
good luck!
@HABD: thanks, some slightly different POV to help my own though process. Also, beyond the buffers article, Rollo on LDRs. https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/20/letting-go-of-invisible-friend/ I am not guaranteed any benefits (desire can’t be negotiated). I just couldn’t understand prior to the RP how it could be days and weeks apart, and then I make the trip to visit and can be left blue balled (with physical pain). At least when I’m apart I don’t get blue balled. The key question is indeed what are the benefits for me. And when I revisit this question it just seems like a net negative. At that… Read more »
P.S. I also like velcro shoes. I can tie laces but I don’t like to do it.
@Culum (the only potential flaw I can see in the OMG argument – and it’s not even a flaw, just an assertion that needs to be tested – is: “Is it TRUE that having a kid with a girl locks you down to such an extent that marriage on top of that makes no significant difference?” (I can see that the other part of HABD’s point is clearly true – being married gives you some benefits/status as the husband/father that unmarried men don’t get – but is it empirically true that marriage doesn’t ADD to the burden? I think that’s… Read more »
habd
you CAN’T walk away from the SYSTEM
That’s the tl;dr of my dribble about the hippies of the 60’s and 70’s and 80’s.
They actively walked away from the system, and it worked for some of them, for a while.
The system has been reworked, changed, tweaked multiple times since then explicitly to make it all but impossible to walk away from. “For the children”, of course.
IAS I used to spend a lot of time at the MMSL board, back when the forum first started… until things got weird with the female mods and I ended up banned (HABD as well LOL) One thing that was useful was to see in real time thousands of guys all with the exact same issues, mostly coming from the exact same place – never had hand, always in scarcity mindset, never wanted to rock the boat, “nice guys” etc. All getting the exact same outcomes – low attraction, passive aggressive behavior, frustration and anger, etc. One diagnostic tool they… Read more »
@IAS I am not guaranteed any benefits (desire can’t be negotiated). I just couldn’t understand prior to the RP how it could be days and weeks apart, and then I make the trip to visit and can be left blue balled (with physical pain). At least when I’m apart I don’t get blue balled. sooo, game away…lol… what do you have to lose… except an ‘oopsie’…lol The key question is indeed what are the benefits for me. And when I revisit this question it just seems like a net negative. At that stage it isn’t even “Can I get better… Read more »
@Sentient: European, white and formerly Catholic. The elephants in the room are already posted, I’m N=1 inexperienced in Game and sex despite being mid-thirties, spergy and I’m in an LDR. I think some of those would be shameful enough if I was to feel shame about it (I mostly don’t fortunately). Nothing else in the triage makes me wonder. In the past I wondered about Medical, but there are a few instances of desire sex where she is lubricated. When she isn’t it is because I haven’t elicited arousal and she is giving me “duty sex”. Incidentally this is partly… Read more »
IAS
I bet she is probably subconsciously (or consciously) punishing me for not being present (LDR) and for her having to work (I don’t think there are any doubts that I’m in the provider/BB track here).
No doubt about the first part… maybe the second part, not as important though.
If I was going to make this work, having her move back to where I lived and worked – this is your mission you said – would be Step 1.
@Sentient: I thought about trying that during this past year. I’m obviously not very convinced it can work given the limited progress I made despite knowing about the Red Pill (I could have acted more). There is a huge potential deal breaker that I don’t want kids and she all but overtly does. I’d feel genuinely bad about getting her to drop her own work / career (which isn’t spectacular in terms of her fulfillment or salary, but it is something) just to give it a final last try, and then it doesn’t work and I end up divorcing one… Read more »
@IAS
“If that is the FI pushing on me I don’t know.”
sure you do…lol…
but even THAT (not being able to even say that the FI is pushing on you)… is the FI pushing on you…lol
are YOU getting what YOU want?… if not, then it’s the FI pushing on you…
good luck!
Her regrets should not ultimately be your problem IAS.
If there is one core message I have internalized about OMG game and RP knowledge etc, it’s that each of us is ultimately responsible for our own happiness. Others might give you happiness but its not their responsibility.
@ Agent P
” If there is one core message I have internalized about OMG game and RP knowledge etc, it’s that each of us is ultimately responsible for our own happiness. Others might give you happiness but its not their responsibility.”
Cosign +1
@Anonymous Reader “Fathers who are not married to the woman are treated worse than husbands.” My point is that you guys aren’t realizing how this has changed and where the trend is going. You’re still picturing husbands being treated “worse than the wife but not totally zero rights in family court”. That was probably true in the past. But open your eyes and look around at the world we’re in today, where women are ENCOURAGED to throw false accusations “for the sake of the kids” against their husbands in family court. There’s no way to be “treated worse than husbands”… Read more »
IAS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE_2VEWvEH8
You watched “The Gambler” yet?
“Outro”
I’m the king of my own land.
Facing tempests of dust, I’ll fight until the end.
Creatures of my dreams raise up and dance with me!
Now and forever, I’m your king!
Go ALL IN on IAS…
@ IAS
The guys here are giving you some stellar advice.
My only question to you is: Are you looking to get completely out, or are you looking to turn your marriage around 180 degrees?
Serious question.
@YaReally do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?… bc it’s based on ‘child support’ that’s based on some made up income number (imputed income)… which the courts are more likely to do if you are a ‘baby daddy’ than a ‘husband’ (courts REALLY hate those guys…FI is in full play there)…serious question… bc i don’t think you’ve factored that in to your analysis… and that ‘award’ is even easier and more likely if you are… Read more »
Rollo
You ever thought about a short primer for intro purposes?
“If married fathers have zero rights in anti-Family court, unmarried ones have …. negative rights.” YaReally: No you had it right in the first half of that sentence. That’s the disconnect. There’s no “negative rights”. Zero rights is the bottom. Hate to bring the bad news, but zero rights is not the bottom. Negative rights – like, “You get to fight your child support case from jail through your lawyer because I put you there for contempt of court” do exist. Anti-Family court judges tend to presume husband/father “guilty until proven innocent”, they tend to presume unmarried fathers “guilty until… Read more »
@Ya Really. To expand on my situation, when I got to RP, I was already really low in my life, depressed, fat, not getting laid, married with two kids, 10 years into a marriage, wife had not worked in 3-4 years essentially due to mental issues. I was running in the red on the regular with a few stellar periods of income, but on balance not sustainable. When I found the RP, I went through the five stages and holy fuck was I angry. One of the best things I picked up was, she can control the sex, but I… Read more »
First post. I bet there are a lot of us lurking OMGs here. If they are anything like me, they want to hear more from yareally and less from argumentative posters. Yareally is handing you value, among other things, he is updating MM for the changing times. Listen more and argue less. It’s approximately evil to take an important site like this one and then pour your energies into diluting its content and arguing with one of the most valuable contributors of all. Ask yourself: if yareally-content were removed, would this site be as valuable? Now, if _your_ content were… Read more »
Endless
Welcome. Good to see you posting up.
Welcome to a RP site, where the owner allows all types of opinions. YaReally is great, I concur, and he even has an archive. So what’s with the attitude dude?
People have different opinions and life experi… you know what? Fuck it.
Welcome anyway.
Hey!!!! any ” omg lurkers ” out there??? Y’all feel free to chime in.
Ask yourself: if yareally-content were removed, would this site be as valuable?
Sure it would. The main value comes from Rollo’s content, as it always has. It was one of the best sites long before Ya showed up here, to be quite frank.
No. I was just gonna lay in the cut and read along, but I can’t not respond the Endless Summer’s rude-like comment in full. “I bet there are a lot of us lurking OMGs here. If they are anything like me, they want to hear more from yareally and less from argumentative posters.” As I said initially, this isn’t strictly a pua site, or have you not been reading Rollo’s work at all? Readers here have differing goals and life experiences. ” Yareally is handing you value, among other things, he is updating MM for the changing times. Listen more… Read more »
@ Novaseeker
Lol. I was going to ignore that comment, but it’s just too disrespectful in my opinion.
You can give YaReally props, and he deserves them, without shitting on TRM as a whole.
Have to remember in all this discussion about marriage vs pLTR that Parental Alienation Syndrome is a thing. Very vividly described by scribblerg awhile back, iirc. Search google for more details. Just heard about PAS again in a case involving someone I know. Had lunch recently with his older brother and this time got *all* the details. Which included that phrase PAS plus accusations of child abuse the ex-wife leveled not only at this guy but also the brother and their mother. I only interacted socially with the wife twice when they were still married and I remember thinking she… Read more »
Agent P
Exactly… You play the game the same way with or without marriage… It is all about your vale in any case.
Endless Summer hasnt figured this out yet.
You can give YaReally props, and he deserves them, without shitting on TRM as a whole.
@Blaximus —
Yep, precisely.
@having a bad day “do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?…” I’m aware. “which the courts are more likely to do if you are a ‘baby daddy’ than a ‘husband’” ARE they really any more likely to do it to you as a baby daddy VS as a husband who has false accusations of abuse/molestation/rape against him these days? Because that’s my argument, that women are encouraged to make those accusations more now and that… Read more »
@Random Angeleno “Have to remember in all this discussion about marriage vs pLTR that Parental Alienation Syndrome is a thing. Very vividly described by scribblerg awhile back, iirc. Search google for more details.” Was scribblerg, a “husband” really any better off than if he had been a “baby daddy”, in terms of how that all worked out? I dunno, but I could make a pretty good case that he isn’t. He might as WELL have been just a “baby daddy” legally, and just done everything exactly the same…how much worse could it really get for him than the brutal situation… Read more »
“I know I’ll never convince these OMGs if I haven’t by now, because they’re either deliberately trying to not see my point or simply literally incapable of it (solipsism, OMG stubbornness, ego-investment, YaReally-hate, whatever lol)” Or, a bad and unrealistic ” plan ” because the assumptions are mostly false? % guys have said mostly the same thing to you about this, and you just want to say that all 5 of us are trying not to see your point ( even though EVERYONE SEES it very clearly ). and everyone is pointing to the legal ramifications of your original “plan”,… Read more »
Yareally
I see the strawman du jour is domestic abuse… Ok.
You know there are still courts and witnesses and testimony and perjury and all…
No of course you don’t…. You will try anything. To make your ever increasingly strained point.
Sad.
Any more lawyers lurking around out there??
Lol.
“My point was I specifically took the attitude I at that point had nothing to lose, so I played the game that way. Just like the movie Heat, be ready to walk in five minutes flat no matter what. It was liberating. eventually she figured out that was my approach as well and it sure made her sit up straight all of a sudden. It all comes down to being my own MPO etc. my conclusion, if you are really RP, in any relationship, you mentally need to be ready to walk almost no matter what on the girl to… Read more »
When it comes to determining child support arrangements, unmarried parents have some unique considerations to keep in mind. Already-complex issues like visitation rights, paternity and time shared between a father and child become more problematic than more “traditional” cases. Unmarried Parents Face Same Child Support Obligations Non-custodial parents, regardless of marital status, are required to pay child support to their custodial parent counterparts until their minor children reach age 18. If, at age 18, the child is an unmarried, full-time high school student, then the child support responsibility resumes until the minor child reaches age 19 or completes her senior… Read more »
Once more for emphasis –
Partners in a common law relationship may feel they are similar to married couples. However, such couples do not benefit from core legal protections afforded to married spouses. Divorce laws do not apply to such relationships, even when children are born into the relationship.
Out before strawmen appear.
G’night All.
“So why not just run the red pill to the hilt instead of stopping halfway to change the game from Easy to Hard mode so we don’t have all these guys coming here asking how to save their failing marriages before they get divorce raped? Why not just have them keep playing on Easy mode so they keep attraction and don’t end up needing help or needing to deal with family court in the first place because their woman stays attracted?” There is a reason why Married Red Pill guys on Reddit call MRP the red pill on hard mode.… Read more »
Lets just try to squash the conversation and send men back to what we know isn’t working instead of attempting to help work through issue at hand
@ mersonia
Yeah. Because ” hard mode “.
Lol….
Hey Rollo, do you have an ” Easy ” button for Red Pill?
” Lets just try to squash the conversation …”
Don’t tell me….
I get accused of trying to squash the conversation all the time.
Damn facts…
“Lets just try to squash the conversation and send men back to what we know isn’t working instead of attempting to help work through issue at hand….”
Let’s just try to continue the conversation and propel men forward into not wishing how things ought to be instead of how they are. If things aren’t working, then make them work.
No one is trying to squash the conversation. Or not advance men’s strategy. To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous.
Do you even manosphere, Bro?
The issue at hand is having hand.
@Blax
You want me to come tuck you in?
@SJF
“The issue at hand is having hand.”
Your living proof that being married doesn’t automatically give you hand.
“Your living proof that being married doesn’t automatically give you hand.”
Exactly.
Being married doesn’t give you Hand.
BTW you spelled you’re wrong.
@Blaximus: at this point I’m convinced I gave it a solid try over 1 year, so I’m mostly thinking of getting out.
When I started I was mostly thinking of turning it around without wanting to get out, then I figured out I need to be ready to get out in order to have a chance of turning it around and focused on gaming the wife, but by now I’ve been thinking more about details separating assets than whatever else I can try to game my wife.
Good luck to you all but I must say that the most depressing manosphere phrase for me is;
“gaming the wife”
It’s right up there with, “This is the captain. Brace for impact,” in terms of immediate, visceral depression. It just brings me down right away. The very thought of having to put my mind and energy into “gaming the wife” is so gloomy.
@Kaminsky: I’m obviously not in a position of great expertise here, but Rollo has addressed this many times. You can’t escape the burden of performance. The realistic end goal is that you internalize and attain mastery that “gaming the wife” is passive rather than active. At that stage you don’t have to put your mind and energy into it, you just do it almost without thinking, it is part of who you are.
Obviously I’m nowhere near there, but maybe that gives you “a new hope”.
Kaminsky
You know you have to game all women regardless of relationship status, right?
You’re both right. And of course it’s all true. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a downer of a phrase. It’s a very gritty, real concept, like ‘One day we all die.’ That’s all I mean.
“gaming the wife” It’s right up there with, “This is the captain. Brace for impact,” in terms of immediate, visceral depression. It just brings me down right away. The very thought of having to put my mind and energy into “gaming the wife” is so gloomy. Just how it is, Kaminsky. It makes no sense being depressed about reality — there is no difference between the need to game your wife and the fact that there are clouds in the sky. Same thing. Makes no sense to get depressed about, either way. Old set of books no longer applies. Burden… Read more »
“You’re both right. And of course it’s all true. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a downer of a phrase. It’s a very gritty, real concept, like ‘One day we all die.’ That’s all I mean.” That’s your grief phases pushing on you. That’s normal to have those feelings passively come on you. It takes time and distance to work through the stages. Those feelings are normal when you are in the incompetent phases of mastery. Your two phrases “game the wife” and “One day we all die” actually make me psyched up for the game, liberated to play,… Read more »
Kaminsky Unless one had an arranged marriage, they were gaming your wife to get her in the first place, whether they consciously knew it or not. Women are absolutely right though when they trot out the whole “catch the bus and sit down” analogy about guys stopping their “efforts” once they get the girl. THAT is the first step towards betaization… And so in ANY LTR you must keep the game going or you reach the same end stage – LOSS of attraction. Not being “legally” married is not a cure for this any more than being legally married… it… Read more »
“it is bad information and false hope that magically because you have theoretically lower costs to leave that somehow this will equate to keeping attraction”
wtf, now I have to misrepresent this, this is too much
Well I’m not even married. So that throws a money wrench into the whole conversation, I guess. Maybe if I were married and committed to a marriage, I would just look at ‘gaming the wife’ as part of the life I chose. While still single, it’s not exactly an exciting concept; it’s reality, truth etc but still not exciting. For a single guy, marriage already seems like a massive sacrifice. Just by giving up so much of your life, you feel like you’ve already done all that you have to do, then comes the call for non-stop gaming. It sounds… Read more »
Speaking of gaming the LTR… Yesterday, wife is anxious about today’s party at our house with bunch of kids and their ‘burb moms. After dropping kids @ piano lessons I take her a few blocks down to the pub. She starts unloading about the stresses of her made-woman lifestyle. The party, the laundry, blah blah. Half way through her first pumpkin oktoberfest ale, I start giving her the soft lazer eyes. She prattles as girls do just living in their heads occasionally looking at me. i don’t break the eyes and remain silent. She snaps out of her narrative, looks… Read more »
EhIntellect
Excellent FR on you Day 3,657! Textbook game running…
@ Ehintellect
Bravo. This kind of thing moves from second nature, to first nature. Or at least it’s supposed to.
It’s not about wives ” blah blah-ing “, but about a husband ( or boyfriend ) knowing to to change her mood and redirect emotion.
Maybe it would help more men if this were included in wedding vows…
” Do you take this woman as your lawful, wedded wife, do you promise to pass shit tests with ease, and understand, control and guide her emotions in a masculine manner to the benefit of you both?…etc “.
SJF And at one time Sentient said that running toward your purpose and destiny and your relationship and your children is more important (and more difficult) than running away from it. Thanks for bringing this up… and it is broader than relationship. It is the essence of seizing your future – the capital D dynamic in the DPA Triad… It is HARD to move towards risk… it is HARD to even THINK about it. Sooooo much easier to try and avoid. Here is a story from an old book that hits upon this and themes of Mastery, Authenticity, Identity and… Read more »
“As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. 49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.”
First, attack it on the state level by contacting state reps. I think it’s a numbers game. The FI isn’t really all that strong numbers wise, but the few have much legislative pull because men don’t fight back. Guys normally find out after they get shafted. Second, attack it federally. No court should be allowed to violate constitutional rights. What would the Supreme Court have to say about this? ( I gotta look that up ). Just seeing this note now. The Court tends to not get involved much in family law other than in the obvious cases like gay… Read more »
I’m flattered and humbly serve the greater good.
BTW: what’s “Excellent FR on you Day 3,657! ” ?
“There is no way to minimize the risks in the fashion you want to do, as far as THE SYSTEM is concerned. Kids introduce you into the system. PERIOD. The risks rise as a baby daddy. PERIOD.” @Blaximus If there are different systems, with different strengths, weaknesses and consequences then logically one of them will have the minimum risk. All of the options are high risk, but one of them will have the least risk. Maybe there isn’t a one size fits all answer. There probably isn’t, but that doesn’t mean that a pLTR isn’t a viable option, and one… Read more »
Andy
“What if a man’s purpose and destiny are incompatible with his relationship and children. Will you support the man that will leave his relationship and children for his purpose and destiny? ”
Alpha is amoral. There still are consequences though.
EhIntellect
“BTW: what’s “Excellent FR on you Day 3,657! ” ?”
PUA Game often involves closing the deal via structured meetings, i.e. first meet is Day 1, second is day 2 etc… FR = field report…
“If there are different systems, with different strengths, weaknesses and consequences then logically one of them will have the minimum risk.” You can play Russian Roulette with one round in the cyclinder, or one round and five blanks. The latter case may be the riskiest, as there is an off chance that you live. “Will you support the man that will leave his relationship and children for his purpose and destiny?” This is next best shot you’ve got if you’ve already been named as the father. Accept the initial child support order without complaint, do not fight for custody, walk… Read more »
Andy 2 Samuel 11New International Version (NIV) David and Bathsheba 11 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem. 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and… Read more »
“In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.”
Unintended consequences via risk avoidance…
@Andy I don’t include Tyler or Julien RSD as Peurarchs and I think they are fantastic role models for young men of any persuasion. They run a huge successful business. They moved past the Puerarchy stage. They are men in full. https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/25/for-better-or-worse/comment-page-8/#comment-171813 I formerly said (in admittedly garbled fashion, the link above has more context): “Despite what I think for SYG’s the guy to look to is what JulienRSD more so than Tyler is doing with his life in real life. That guy seems composed and orderly in his JulienHimself Youtube Channel. And he has the instincts to settle with… Read more »
@YaReally @having a bad day “do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?…” I’m aware. so how is losing ALL your assets (even those that you got before your pLTR started, and doesn’t include any of HER assets in the calculation…), better than losing half of your assets that you got since the marriage started (which also would include any assets she had earned as part of the calculation)?… that makes no sense to me logically…… Read more »
HABD & YaReally – I’ve just read through to the end of this. I think we’re really making some progress in identifying the disconnect on this debate – it seems there are actually some disagreements about the underlying facts (level of upside/downside for being baby daddy vs being married etc) that are going to be difficult to resolve, because you essentially end up in “my anecdotal experience” vs “your anecdotal evidence”. This is in addition to the more structural logic based points that HABD just made. I can’t manage today but I’ll try to boil things down to the key… Read more »
“I don’t include Tyler or Julien RSD as Peurarchs and I think they are fantastic role models for young men of any persuasion. They run a huge successful business. They moved past the Puerarchy stage. They are men in full.”
“Are you saying that helping fellow men achieve their potential WITH women and pushing them towards enlightenment isn’t a suitable “masculine” mission?”
Not at all.
(And just to be forthright: I was speaking of YaReally. )”
@SJF
How is what YaReally does different from RSD? Because he does it for free, and doesn’t have a huge successful business?
@Andy That’s just me with my OMG goggles on. Perhaps just being pejorative because the Puerarchs don’t accept the OMG’s as being on the same red pill team and me trying to get over my butt-hurt-ness over that. Wealth creation and assets for personal power and relationship game and parenting fit into my own personal definition of masculine self improvement (especially in a society in decline). YMMV. And that depends on one’s definition of what a Puerarch is. Ian Ironwood wrote in praise of tag teaming feminism: http://puerarchy.com/2013/07/16/ironwood-speaks-welcome-to-the-puerarchy-this-is-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you/ If I could (and who knows, I might) I would write and… Read more »
This is one reason for the false charges of DV that have pretty much become standard in divorce cases.” YaReally Agreed. That’s my point. How much better off is a “husband” who’s viewed as an abuser who may be molesting the kids, than the “baby daddy” really? They’re both so far past fucked that being a “husband” didn’t really come with any benefit. Except that being a no-good, Peter Pan Manboy, babydaddy is viewed worse by the sort of UMC law students who tend to become anti Family Court judges. DV laws are all about “intimate partner violence”, which includes… Read more »
EhIntellect Yesterday, wife is anxious about today’s party at our house with bunch of kids and their ‘burb moms. After dropping kids @ piano lessons I take her a few blocks down to the pub. She starts unloading about the stresses of her made-woman lifestyle. The party, the laundry, blah blah. Half way through her first pumpkin oktoberfest ale, I start giving her the soft lazer eyes. This is the point where the typical Beta reaction is to combine Comfort of the “there, there, honey” with Problem Solving of the “well, what if you did the laundry on a different… Read more »
But stay the fuck away from my daughter. We don’t want any unpleasantness. I’ve already got the hole dug. That saves time.
That’s one of those pieces of patriarchal wisdom y’all might want to hold on to.
Wonder what Ian is up to these days… used to enjoy the pics he used in his posts too.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Loe9VnvWkis/VVOMDC8XfTI/AAAAAAAAGSI/V4fF12tDUrM/s1600/11057835954_705482396f_o%2B(1).jpg
classic
@ Novaseeker
Thank you for the clarification. I was being thrown by the use of the word ” court ” in (anti)Family Court.
You’ve been a huge help.
@ HABD ” in which case do you think the judge is even going to try to be fair?… @AR is NOT wrong about those negative rights in play… there is NO case (being in court fighting for your kids) where being a baby daddy is going to be better for you than being a ‘husband’… AR hit the nail on the head. But this argument must be glossed over in order to continue the OMG’s ego invested, solipsistic, hating, out-of-touch theme. Because this fact flies in the face of the Master Argument or ” absolutely no benefit to legal… Read more »
Treating women like men … been there, done that. If it isn’t the worst thing men do with the women in their lives, it’s gotta be right up there in the top 5. Most of the time, maybe up to 95% of the time, all she wants is to be heard, that someone heard her. That’s it. When I learned this, it made sense yet it took me awhile to internalize it because I’m a natural troubleshooter and problem fixer by trade. Now it’s no effort to just listen while suppressing the urge to jump in with unsolicited suggestions. Solve… Read more »
“That’s just me with my OMG goggles on. Perhaps just being pejorative because the Puerarchs don’t accept the OMG’s as being on the same red pill team and me trying to get over my butt-hurt-ness over that.”
Honest self reflection. Internet fist bump.
@Blaximus
So, there will be zero concession.
Facts be damned.
nah… he’s almoooost through the denial phase… but it really is an unexpected shit sandwich… bc when i started down that rabbit hole, i was at the same starting point… and if ((I)) wasn’t such a sperg… i’d be choking on my own analysis too…lol…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRKz6QS5UYI
good luck!