I received this email some time ago, but I felt it needed some serious consideration to give the concept the justice it deserved.
Rollo — You’ve been a major help to my understanding the underlying dynamics between men and women. I’ve observed them in bits and pieces over the years but never really understood the whys behind them or how to turn them in our favor.
It seems like one mid-term focus you have is on male-male dynamics, specifically fathers and sons. But I also wonder whether you’d consider writing more about bonding and support between men and how those relationships can anchor men’s lives at a time when male relationships are regarded with skepticism by larger society. Lately it’s struck me that men tend to innately trust the men they know and distrust those they don’t (and that it’s often the reverse for women). This inclines us to believe women when they decry the “assholes” who have mistreated them in the past while women are empathetic and credulous toward women whose character they don’t know and whom they’ve never met.
Many of us out here are lacking strong male relationships, and our small social circles translate to fewer men we innately trust and more men we innately don’t. Women seem to regard male friendships as a luxury at best–we should be focusing on career, family, and her needs–while women’s friendships are seen as a lifeline in their crazy, have-it-all world. Indeed, a man discouraging his SO’s friendships is widely seen as a sign of emotional abuse, whereas the reverse is “working on the relationship.”
This strikes me as a deep but largely untapped Red Pill well and could provide essential guidance for men looking to live a proud, constructive Red Pill life however women and children might fit into it. I’d definitely welcome your insights in future entries.
Look forward to every post!
Back in February Roosh proposed (and attempted to initiate) a worldwide event that would be a sort of ‘gathering of the tribes’ with the intent of having men get together in small local gatherings to “just have a beer and talk amongst like-minded men.” My impression of the real intent of in putting this together notwithstanding, I didn’t think it was a bad idea. However, the problem this kind of ‘tribes meeting’ suffers from is that it’s entirely contrived to put unfamiliar men together for no other purpose than to “have a beer and talk.” The problem with unfamiliar men coming together simply to meet and relate is a noble goal, however, the fundamental ways men communicate naturally makes the function of this gathering seem strange to men.
The best male friends I have share one or more common interests with me – a sport, a hobby, music, art, fishing, lifting, golf, etc. – and the best conversations I can remember with these friends occurred while we were engaged in some particular activity or event. Even just moving a friend into his new house; it’s about accomplishing something together and in that time relating about shit. When I lived in Florida some of the best conversations I had with my studio guys were during some project we had to collaborate on for a week or two.
Women, make time with the express purpose of talking between friends. Over coffee perhaps, but the act of communication is more important than the event or activity. Even a ‘stitch-and-bitch’ is simply an organized excuse to get together and relate. For women, communication is about context. They are rewarded by how that communication makes them feel. For Men communication is about content and they are rewarded by the interchange of information and ideas.
[…]From an evolutionary perspective, it’s likely that our hunter-gatherer tribal roles had a hand in men and women’s communication differences. Men went to hunt together and practiced the coordinated actions for a cooperative goal. Bringing down a prey animal would have been a very information-crucial effort; in fact the earliest cave paintings were essentially records of a successful hunt and instructions on how to do it. Early men’s communication would necessarily have been a content driven discourse or the tribe didn’t eat.
Similarly women’s communications would’ve been during gathering efforts and childcare. It would stand to reason that due to women’s more collectivist roles they would evolve to be more intuitive, and context oriented, rather than objective oriented. A common recognition in the manosphere is women’s predisposition toward collectivism and/or a more socialist bent to thinking about resource distribution. Whereas men tend to distribute rewards and resources primarily on merit, women have a tendency to spread resources collectively irrespective of merit. Again this predisposition is likely due to how women’s ‘hard-wiring’ evolved as part of the circumstances of their tribal roles.
From this perspective it’s a fairly easy follow to see how the tendency of men to distrust unfamiliar (out-group) men might be a response to a survival threat whereas women’s implicit trust of any member of the ‘sisterhood’ would be a species-survival benefit to the sex that requires the most parental investment and mutual support.
Divide & Conquer
In our post-masculine, feminine-primary social order it doesn’t take a Red Pill Lens to observe the many examples of how the Feminine Imperative goes to great lengths to destroy the intrasexual ‘tribalism’ of men. Since the time of the Sexual Revolution the social press of equalism has attempted to force a commonly accepted unisex expectation upon men to socialize and interact among themselves as women do.
The duplicity in this striving towards “equality” is, of course, the same we find in all of the socialization efforts of egalitarian equalism; demasculinizing men in the name of equality. A recent, rather glaring, example of this social push can be found (where else?) at Harvard University where more than 200 female students demonstrated against a new policy to discourage participation in single-gender clubs at the school. You see, women were very supportive of the breaking of gender barriers when it meant that men could no longer discriminate in male-exclusive (typically male-space) organizations, but when that same equalist metric was applied to women’s exclusive organizations, then the cries were accusations of insensitivity and the banners read “Women’s Groups Keep Women Safe.”
That’s a pretty fresh incident that outlines the dynamic, but it’s important to understand the underlying intent of the “fine for me, but not for thee” duplicity here. That intent is to divide and control men’s communication by expecting them to communicate as women do, and ideally to do so on their own accord by conditioning them to accept women’s communication means as the normatively correct way to communicate. As I’ve mentioned before, the most effective social conventions are the ones in which the participants willingly take part in and willingly encourage others to believe is correct.
Tribes vs. The Sisterhood
Because men have such varied interests, passions and endeavors based on them it’s easy to see how men compartmentalize themselves into various sub-tribes. Whether it’s team sports (almost always a male-oriented endeavor), cooperative enterprises, cooperative forms of art (rock bands have almost always been male space) or just hobbies men share, it is a natural progression for men to form sub-tribes within the larger whole of conventional masculinity.
Because of men’s’ outward reaching approach to interacting with the world around him, there’s really no unitary male tribe in the same fashion that the collective ‘Sisterhood’ of women represents. One of the primary strengths of the Feminine Imperative has been its unitary tribalism among women. We can see this evidenced in how saturated the Feminine Imperative has become into mainstream society and how it’s embedded itself into what would otherwise be diametrically opposed factions among women. Political, socioeconomic and religious affiliations of women (various sub-tribes) all become secondary to the interests of ‘womankind’ when embracing the collective benefits of being women and leveraging both their victim and protected statuses.
Thus, we see no cognitive dissonance when women simultaneously embrace a hostile opposition to one faction while still retaining the benefits that faction might offer to the larger whole of the Sisterhood. The Sisterhood is unitary first and then it is broken down into sub-tribes. Family, work, interests, political / religious compartmentalizations become sublimated to fostering the collective benefits of womankind.
While I can speculatively understand the socio-evolutionary underpinnings of how this psychological dynamic came to be, I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out just how effective this unitary collectiveness has been in shaping society towards a social ideal that supports an unfettered drive towards women’s gender-coded need to optimize Hypergamy. This unitary, gender-primary tribalism has been (and is) the key to women’s unilateral social power – and even in social environments where women still suffer oppression, the Sisterhood will exercise this gender-tribalism.
Threat Assessments
Asserting any semblance of a unitary male tribalism is a direct threat to the Feminine Imperative. In The Threat I began the essay with this summation:
Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.
When I wrote this essay I did so from the perspective of women feeling vulnerable about interacting intimately with men who understood their own value to women and also understood how to leverage it. One of the reasons Game is so vilified, ridiculed and disqualified by the Sisterhood is because it puts this understanding into practice with women and, in theory, removes women from the optimization of Hypergamy. Red Pill awareness and Game lessens women’s control in that equation, which is sexy from the standpoint of dealing with a self-aware high SMV man, but also threatening from the perspective that her security depends on him acquiescing to her Frame and control.
Up to this point, Game has represented an individualized threat to women’s Hypergamous control, but there has always been a larger majority of men (Betas) who’ve been easily kept ignorant of their true potential for control. However, on a larger social landscape, the Feminine Imperative understands the risks involved in men forming a unitary tribe – a Brotherhood – based solely on benefitting and empowering men. The manosphere, while still effectively a collection of sub-tribes, represents a threat to the imperative because its base purpose is making men aware of their true state in a feminine-centric social order.
As such, any attempt to create male-specific, male-empowering organizations is made socially synonymous with either misogyny (hate) or homosexuality (shame). Ironically, the shame associated with homosexuality that a fem-centric society would otherwise rail against becomes an effective form of intra-gender shame when it’s applied to heterosexual collectives of men. Even suggestions of male-centered tribalism are attached with homosexual suspicions, and these come from within the collectives of men themselves.
The above picture is from an “academic” conference (class?) Mediated Feminisms: Activism and Resistance to Gender and Sexual Violence in the Digital Age held at UCL in London. There’s quite a bit more to this than just collecting and codifying the sub-tribes of the manosphere, more can be found here.
Now, granted, this conference is replete with all of the uninformed (not to mention willful ignorance) concern to be expected of contemporary feminists, but this does serve as a current example of how men organizing for the exclusive benefit of men is not just equated with misogyny, but potential violence. As a unitary collective of men, the manosphere terrifies the Feminine Imperative. That fear, however, doesn’t stem from any real prospective violence, but the potential for a larger ‘awareness’ in men of their own conditions and the roles they are expected to play to perpetuate a feminine-centric social order. They fear to lose the control that the ‘socially responsible’ ignorance of men provides them with.
Men’s predisposition to form sub-tribes and intrasexual competition (“lets you and him fight”) has always been a means of covert control by women, but even still the Feminine Imperative must insert its influence and oversight into those male spaces to make use of them. Thus, by assuring that feminine primacy is equated with the idea of inclusive equalism, all Male Space is effectively required to be “unisex space” while all-female sub-tribes must remain exclusively female. For an easy example of this, compare and contrast the reactions to Harvard’s unisex institution of campus club equalism to the worldwide reactions to, and preemption of, the “Tribe” meetings only attempted to be organized by Return of Kings in February.
Making Men
By controlling men’s intrasex communications with each other the Feminine Imperative can limit men’s unified, collective, understanding of masculinity and male experiences. Feminine-primary society hates and is terrified of men defining and asserting masculinity for themselves (to the point of typifying it as potentially violent), but as connectivity progresses we will see a more concentrated effort to lock down the narrative and the means of men communicating male experiences.
I’ve detailed in many prior posts how the imperative has deliberately misdirected and confused men about a unified definition of masculinity. That confusion is designed to keep men guessing and doubting about their “security in their manhood” while asserting that the feminine-correct definition is the only legitimate definition of healthy, ‘non-toxic’, masculinity. This deliberate obfuscation and ambiguity about what amounts to ‘authentic masculinity’ is another means of controlling men’s awareness of their true masculine potential and value – a potential that they rightly fear will mean acquiescing to men’s power over their Hypergamous social and personal control. Anything less than a definition of masculinity that fosters female primacy and fempowerment is labeled “toxic masculinity” – literally and figuratively poisonous.
This is the real, operative reason behind the obsessive, often self-contradicting, need for control of male space by the Feminine Imperative. Oversight and infiltration of male sub-tribes and instituting a culture of self-policing of the narrative within those sub-tribes maintains a feminine-primary social order.
Since the time in which western(izing) societies shifted to unfettering Hypergamy on a social scale there has been various efforts to demasculinize – if not outright feminize – the larger majority of men. Today we’re seeing the results of, and still persistent efforts of this in much starker contrast as transgenderism and the social embrace of foisting gender-loathing on boys becomes institutionalized. A deliberate promotion of a social constructivist narrative about gender identity and the very early age at which children can “choose” a gender for themselves is beginning to be more and more reinforced in our present feminine-primary social order.
As a result of this, and likely into our near future, today’s men are conditioned to feel uncomfortable being “men”. That discomfort is a direct result of the ambiguity and misguidance about conventional masculinity the imperative has fostered in men when they were boys. This feminization creates a gender loathing, but that loathing comes as the result of an internal conflict between the feminine-correct “non-toxic” understanding of what masculinity ought to be and the conventional aspects of masculinity that men need to express as a result of their biology and birthright.
Effectively, this confusion has the purpose of creating discomfort in men among all-male sub-tribes. These masculine-confused men have difficulty with intersocial communication within the sub-tribes they’re supposed to have some sort of kin or in-group affiliation with. Even the concept of “male bonding” has become a point of ridicule (something typical of male buffoons) or suspiciously homosexual , so, combined with the feminine identification most of these men default to, today’s “mangina” typically has more female friends and feels more comfortable communicating as women communicate. These men have been effectively conditioned to believe or feel that male interaction or organization is inherently wrong, uncomfortable or contrived, possibly even threatening if the organizing requires physical effort. Consequently, interacting as a male becomes ridiculous or superficial.
Pushing Back
What then is to be done about this conditioning? For all the efforts to destroy or regulate male tribalism, the Feminine Imperative still runs up against men’s evolved predispositions to interact with the outside world instead of fixating on the inside world of women. Below I’ve pieced together some actionable ideas that might help men come to a better, unitary way of fostering the male tribalism the Feminine Imperative would see destroyed or used as a tool of soci0-sexual control:
- While it is vitally important to maintain a male-specific mental point of origin, together men need a center point of action. Women talk, men do. Men need a common purpose in which the tribe can focus its efforts on. Men need to build, coordinate, win, compete and problem solve amongst themselves. The ‘purpose’ of a tribe can’t simply be one of getting together as like-minded men; in fact, groups with such a declared purpose are often designed to be the most conciliatory and accommodating of the Feminine Imperative. Men require a common, passionate purpose to unite for.
- Understand and accept that men will naturally form male hierarchies in virtually every context if that tribe is truly male-exclusive. There will be a reflexive resistance to this, but understand that the discomfort in acknowledging male hierarchies stems from the Feminine Imperative’s want to make any male authority a toxic form of masculinity. Contrary to feminine conditioning male hierarchies are not necessarily based on Dark Triad manipulations. That is the ‘fem-think’ – any male created hierarchy of authority is by definition evil Patriarchy.
- Recognize existing male sub-tribes for what they are, but do so without labeling them as such. Don’t talk about Fight Club, do Fight Club. As with most other aspects of Red Pill aware Game, it is always better to demonstrate rather than explicate. There will always be an observer effect in place when you call a male group a “male group”. That tribe must exist for a passionate reason other than the express idea that it exists to be about men meeting up. Every sub-tribe I belong to, every collective interest I share with other men, even the instantly forming ones that arise from an immediate common need or function, all exist apart from “being” about men coming together.Worldwide “tribe” day failed much for the same reasons an organization like the Good Men Project fails – they are publicized as a gathering of men just “being” men.
- Push back on the invasion of male space by being uncompromising in what you do and organize with passion. Make no concessions for women in any all-male space you create or join. There will always be a want to accommodate women and/or the fears of not being accommodating of feminine-primary mindsets within that all-male purview. Often this will come in subtle forms of anonymous White Knighting or reservations about a particular passion due to other men’s Blue Pill conditioning to always consider the feminine before considerations of themselves or the tribe. It is vitally important to the tribe to quash those sympathies and compromising attitudes as these are exactly the designs of the Feminine Imperative to destroy a tribe from within.Make no concessions for competency of women within the tribe if you find yourself in a unisex tribal situation. Even the U.S. military is guilty of reducing combat service requirements for women as recently as this month. If you are a father or you find yourself in a role of mentoring boys or young men it is imperative that you instill this no-compromise attitude in them and the organizations that they create themselves.
- The primary Red Pill / Game tenets that you’ve learned with respect to women are entirely applicable in a larger scope when it comes to resisting the influences of the Feminine Imperative. Frame and a return to a collectively male-exclusive Mental Point of Origin are two of the primary tenets to apply to non-intimate applications of resistance in terms of aspects of society. Observations and the Red Pill Lens should inform your interactions with women and men on a social scale.
Finally, I want to close by restating that my approach to resisting the influences of the Feminine Imperative on a meta-social scale is the same bottom-up approach I used with unplugging men from their Blue Pill doldrums. Once men have taken the first steps in Red Pill awareness this new perspective has a tendency to expound into greater social understandings and a want for applications beyond hooking up with desirable women. That Red Pill awareness becomes a way of life, but moreover, it should inform us as men, as tribes, about how best to maintain ourselves as masculine-primary individuals and organizations.
Yareally “You don’t have to exaggerate my position. You could simply explain to us why the buff gay dude singing britney spears doesn’t moisten pussies even though his arms are still attached to his body.”
Exaggerate!
Yareally doesn’t Exaggerate at all, muscular guy wearing a bikini?
A guy wearing a blazer means all the guys in the world who wear blazers don’t know how to pick up women.
Why don’t you answer me why the sperm of a jacked up guy would sell at the sperm bank and yours and scary and nut Adsgamer, WON’T.
@Yareally The cameras cannot point everywhere, even if they wanted to, it points at the PUA’s set. The footage is edited as it is an expository tool for the publisher. I’m not saying they are hiding anything on purpose. I’m just saying that the edited camera footage necessarily focuses its attention on what the PUA knows is key to the mission of picking up the target. The video should not, and is not going to catch all the data that may falsify the belief systems of those that made it. Its not a data collection tool, it’s an expository tool… Read more »
” . . . women get aroused and wet by pretty much anything . . .”
Cue Ronald Reagan, stage right.
@viavitae “The cameras cannot point everywhere, even if they wanted to, it points at the PUA’s set. The footage is edited as it is an expository tool for the publisher. I’m not saying they are hiding anything on purpose. I’m just saying that the edited camera footage necessarily focuses its attention on what the PUA knows is key to the mission of picking up the target. The video should not, and is not going to catch all the data that may falsify the belief systems of those that made it. Its not a data collection tool, it’s an expository tool… Read more »
YaReally Sentient HABD Walawala Quixotic Forge et al After all the looks stuff, FR from me – first day of May Going Out Blitz. Thanks to Walawala and HABD pointing out the negativity in my previous posts – I’m now going to focus mostly on the positives here. Solo street game and bar game in a couple of nice hotel bars (one I think of as the “hipster hotel bar” and the other the “fancy hotel bar”). Good way to ease back into Going Out mode, despite usual state issues with being solo and lack of targets weekday evening. Good… Read more »
@yareally.
Ive watched some of those vids before and try to absorb all I can from them. That does not mean that Julien and Tyler don’t have footage too boring and pointless to dilute their channel with. My point was that you cannot use this as some kind of dataset. It’s not mean to be.
http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2012/11/28/29efcb4e-a645-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/thumbnail/620×350/b57fcfa56f615429a1732163e4f13f97/popeye_AP934693738120.jpg
@scray “this point you’re making —- that whoever is on top currently isn’t necessarily representative of who was selected for evolutionarily — is a point we were making, so…”. “i’ve used basic 101 evolutionary principles to actually discredit a lot of what you say we ‘know’ wrt to looks, for example…high genetic variance in looks counting strongly against any particular ‘look’ being strongly selected for.” I thought you were trying to demonstrate that women did not care about looks using men from a regime when women’s natural tendencies were on lockdown due to a “one woman for every man, for… Read more »
@Culum Struan Good stuff dude, props on getting back out there. “I have a tendency to let conversations fizzle out even when I have attraction..” “Would really really help my state to get laid soon though” Connect these dots. Draw a line between them. What has to happen between the conversation where you have attraction and getting laid? How can you take the interaction from attraction to getting laid? It’s good that you’re engaging, but consciously think about what you need to do to get to the next stage of the seduction and plan some routines etc to help push… Read more »
isn’t Arnold small compared to the big names today? I know shit all about body building etc. I’m up to speed on power lifting, strongman, strength training in general etc but know shit about fitness and body building.
also Author Jones’s day is long gone. Not saying you are wrong but I’d look for a more current source
@yareally
Of course we can use video of “girls reacting to certain stimulus” as datasets for “how girls react to certain stimulus”.
I don’t think you can use video of girls looking at a couple of skinny nerds as datasets for whether women have a biological trigger for large, tall, powerful men.
But I don’t think there’s anybody who could reasonably call these small arms:
http://cms.bbcomcdn.com/fun/images/2007/drobson331_q.jpg
@viv “I thought you were trying to demonstrate that women did not care about looks using men from a regime when women’s natural tendencies were on lockdown due to a “one woman for every man, for life” policy” no. i was using just empirical data from human populations regardless of societal structure. altho the whole ‘one woman for every man’ policy thing is its own topic worth discussion for another time (it really never worked is the tl;dr) ‘Women did not get to fully express their choices, so how do you get that “women don’t care about looks” from that?’… Read more »
I’ll just leave this here:
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/Gildersleeve,%20Haselton,%20Fales%20(2014)%20reply%20to%20Wood%20et%20al.,%20Harris%20et%20al.%20psych%20bull%20.pdf
call them small? why not? things have shifted radially over the years. at one point having a car and ac in your house meant a certain level of affluence. Now “poor” people have flat screen tv’s, cars, ac, computers etc etc
point being near on everything changes
@scray
Do you know some place that links to some different populations that I could go look at to see your point?
Damn it!!!!
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http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/Gildersleeve,%20Haselton,%20Fales%20(2014)%20reply%20to%20Wood%20et%20al.,%20Harris%20et%20al.%20psych%20bull%20.pdf
Copy link into addr
SFC Ton
I’ll just host it:
https://rationalmale.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/gildersleeve-haselton-fales-2014-reply-to-wood-et-al-harris-et-al-psych-bull.pdf
@rollo
From the link:
“The key prediction of the ovulatory shift hypothesis is that, at high fertility as compared with low fertility, heterosexual women are more attracted to
men possessing characteristics that reflected genetic quality in
ancestral males. This shift in mate preferences is expected to be
most pronounced when women evaluate men’s desirability as sex
partners (e.g., short-term affair partners) but absent or very weak
when women evaluate men’s desirability as long-term social partners”
Literally goes on to prove af/bb and biological attraction to physical male attributes. Really good read.
Yes, based on decades of research. This reply essentially debunks the Harris meta-assessments.
glad someone left a synopsis of that link.
@rollo lol and ill leave this rebuttal to the rebuttal https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276528210_Reply_to_Gangestad%27s_2015_Comment_on_Wood_Kressel_Joshi_and_Louie_2014 “Even by the most gener-ous estimate, more than a third of study findings in this litera-ture report menstrual cycle effects trending in the direction opposing predictions that statement alone completely shuts it down….huge red flag when all the best data massaging and argumentation still leaves a third of the data completely fucked. @viv “Do you know some place that links to some different populations that I could go look at to see your point?” just basic FsT facts and figures should do it… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_index#FST_in_humans and relating that to physical… Read more »
@rollo
“This reply essentially debunks the Harris meta-assessments.”
lol
“Even by the most gener-ous estimate (YOUR ‘REBUTTAL’ LINK), more than a third of study findings in this litera-ture report menstrual cycle effects trending in the direction opposing predictions”
it debunks precisely nothing….
@Via Vitae
“I don’t think you can use video of girls looking at a couple of skinny nerds as datasets for whether women have a biological trigger for large, tall, powerful men.”
Watch every episode of Keys to the VIP and you’ll see plenty of large tall powerful rich men getting blown out because they have shitty subcomms and no game. Or you could go out and just befriend a bunch of tall jacked rich dudes and watch how much they ACTUALLY get laid and note the patterns in their subcomms when they do/don’t.
http://ted.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=07487d1456302a286cf9c4ccc&id=5a9fe0831a&e=236145bbc2
I use to mentor a lot of young men… literally a platoon full at a time and the all over estimated the ablity of money to get you laid. One found a video on you tube about a dude in a super car vs a dude in a rat rod trying to pull ass. They laid their money on the super car, I said rat rod…. rat rod won the image battle is fun vs pretentious prick…. girls looking to get laid chose fun also got to teach my son this lesson a few days back. Some dude in a… Read more »
@Rollo, Bromeo “Literally goes on to prove af/bb and biological attraction to physical male attributes” not so fast Cantú et al. (2014) observed women interacting with both a behaviorally dominant and withdrawn man matched for attractiveness, because they were purportedly twins , on two occasions: once when fertile and once during the luteal phase. When fertile, women were more attracted to and flirted more with the dominant male, which might suggest women selectively signal their fertility status to desired through targeted flirtation. Alternatively, changes in women’s behavior across the cycle need not function to signal; they may reflect changes in… Read more »
Not to keep throwing diesel fuel on this fire, but.. My man scray said ( I know your fingers are tired by now..) ” you can go study pretty much any human population and find WITHIN the population high genetic variance on a lot of physical traits, which suggests weak — if any — selection. ” This must be a relatively new development among humans, what with massive migrations and settlements over the last 150 years or so. Just from an unscientific, layman’s view ( me using my experience ), my genetic make up includes a Heinz 57 amalgamation. East… Read more »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Qlhyp0oZo
@yareally I will watch the VIP thing, but I thought the debate was over whether women care about looks. that is a different proposition from whether they care about only looks, or whether they care more about something other than looks. And remember I don’t argue one way or another over the looks thing. Am not taking a position on anything other than whether people actually proved what they thought they proved. I think the way people argue stuff sometimes makes it hard to separate the signal from the noise. We should all try to stay as collaborative as we… Read more »
“call them small? why not? ”
Well, OK then, 22″ measured contest lean, cold, and honestly with an accurate steel tape is big. Current era Mr. Olympia winner big.
But you can always add pump, water, fat and a Walmart cloth tape to add some size, and then publish a figure a bit bigger (in the video Ronnie comes in at 23″ fat and wet, but has published 24″)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UU0vOThFXGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWy8vjlGCJU
I am dying LOL
@Andy: As it happens I’m currently reading the first few Tarzan (it translates as “Whitey,” go figure) books for the first time. They’re very different from the books I’ve read from later in the series. He gets a few things wrong, which isn’t surprising since they were written before WWI, but he gets an awful lot of stuff right. I haven’t seen the Disney version, but that clip is nothing like the book. In the book he can write English, but never speaks it (never having heard a human spoken word before), so he leaves her notes, which results in… Read more »
@Scray, oh, you mean the reply to the reply by Wendy Wood. The same Wendy Wood whose academic contributions include: Feminism and the Evolution of Sex Differences and Similarities How Women Cope: Being a Numerical Minority in a Male‐Dominated Profession Biology or Culture Alone Cannot Account for Human Sex Differences and Similarities Sexual selection does not provide an adequate theory of sex differences in aggression [Comment] Self-regulation of Gendered Behavior in Everyday Life Gender Stereotypes and the Evaluation of Men and Women in Military Training Explaining Sex Differences in Social Behavior: A Meta-Analytic Perspective Conformity to Sex-Typed Norms, Affect, and… Read more »
Addendum:
Among the stuff he gets pretty right, hypergamy and AF/BB are major plot elements after he meets Jane.
@ Rollo Tomassi I thing your original post here was one of the best ever. Are you surprised that the comments section took the tack that it did? Here the OP talked about tribes working together, and the comments took a strange Venn diagram battle of smaller Venn tribes amongst the larger Venn tribe. I think the discussion has been good, albeit working against the current of men’s sexual strategy. It is quite difficult to follow the real impetus and ego-invested theses that are ongoing in these comments. I’m busy living life and gaming my HB8 and I think there… Read more »
I’m scrambled brain here, the:
@YaReally and Scray.
@Jafyk
was not to supposed to have @Jayfyk there. Just appealing for YaReally and Scray to make shit up about guys who read or post on Rollo’s blog.
How about some Borat infield videos?
Okay I got a story… Lol. The subcomm talk has really got my brain reeling. The research papers have caused my brain to gain 10% more mass. It huurrtttssss…lol. I read 20 comments, then I sit back and think. 10 more comments, more thought. But this sprung to mind. My company employs a cleaning service that is comprised of mostly immigrant women, with a few men sprinkled in. About 6 months ago, I’d noticed the chick that cleaned our common office space. Short ( 5’0″ ) South American gal whose dimensions consisted of eyes, long hair, oversized boobs, nice round… Read more »
@SJF:
Studied physics, married an anthropologist. Interested in everything. The nerd kid who read encyclopedias like novels, took everything apart to see how it worked, including animals, room crammed with tanks full of critters he picked up while wandering around in the woods, microscopes, telescopes. Yard and basement full of god knows what projects.
Mom came home once to find I’d built a formula car in the living room while she was at work.
She didn’t bitch.
She even lasted a few days with a carp in the bathtub.
interesting kfg. never figured I had particularity large arms, I don’t train them directly like they do in body building but apparently 19″ ish is fairly decent.
given the difference muscle fiber of strength athletes vs bodybuilders (denser, heavier etc vs more expansive to accommodate a host of goop ) and size differences, I have friends in the 400 pound range I wonder how much larger the muscles would be on some of y peers if they did body building…or maybe smaller sense humans are geared for different tasks
@Scray Ok if you want to be vague or obscure about these questions: How old are you? Did you recently attend college and what were your studies? Are you basing your “research” and scientific knowledge on the stuff you were told or are you trying to learn things outside of academic life. The reason I ask is because I doubt your current convictions will be very practical when you are 50 years old. You don’t seem to respect KFG’s background or enigmatic aphorisms to your detriment. He is a wise motherfucker. He’s lived a thing or two and you steam-roll… Read more »
Oddly enough Wendy Wood’s social constructivist feminism aligns almost identically with what Scray’s insisted upon for 2 threads now.
@ YaReally
” lol and here I thought black guys loved that shit.”
Lmao!!
Yo man, I’ve always told the brothers to stop fucking the Water Buffaloes. It fucks up the Water buffaloes heads and they think they are antelope.
A man’s gotta know his limitations. My limit for ” thickness ” tops out somewhere around here.
http://66.media.tumblr.com/af3b14f267c6fdc729d6c70f2f125a9a/tumblr_o79xu7SSXS1tnaufeo1_1280.jpg
And doesn’t venture here
Cute, fat chicks are fun and good friends.
Friends don’t let friends fuck fat.
Alarms go off for me when people start arguing with science because I believe that, in many ways, science has been co-opted to be used as a pseudo religion and political tool. It gets pedestalized, it gets dogmatic. Its a tool that works when you use it correctly, but it gets misused a lot. Its getting as bad as religious debates. Case in point: the link Rollo points to shows the huge differences in opinion between scientists looking at the same data, and what appears to be strawmanning, cherry picking, politicking, and other tactics employed in a “scientifical” fashion. At… Read more »
The reason I know about the anti-evo-psych “meta-study” and the reply to the reply to the reply is because I went through exactly this same dialog with Aunt Giggles around 2013.
Meta study is just a sketch concept anyway. Mix good sausage with bad to make better sausage? I don’t think so.
Not at all what was expected:
http://motorland.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/PROBE-LANDS-ON-COMET-.jpg
@ Kfg I studied Premed (the only premed class I excelled at was physics) I was interested in everything. The nerd kid who read encyclopedias like novels, took everything apart to see how it worked, I didn’t take apart critters but I shot the bad ones and spared the good ones with my pellet gun. I used to go to the library and study music, humanities and philosophy between college and medical school. Lust for knowledge was my middle name. In a one year stretch in 1985 I dissected humans after being well steeped in med school anatomy as an… Read more »
@ YaReally
” lol and here I thought black guys loved that shit.”
Cheap shot AMOG comment……..
@SJF @ Rollo Tomassi I thing your original post here was one of the best ever. i agree…lol… that’s why it’s sooo baffling that Rollo can’t seem to get what we are saying…lol. i don’t think it’s really that hard of a concept… i think the biggest issue/problem, is that the arousal cues are discrete ‘attitude’ patterns (for lack of a better descriptor, which by definition are ‘social’), which when sufficiently ‘clustered’ = alpha = sexual arousal in girls…, rather than physical ‘things’ like ‘looks/money/etc’… and that those discrete attitude patterns are the genetically passable alpha traits that a girl’s… Read more »
Back on topic:
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/731107148168634368
OK. That graph is too troublesome.
It pretty much aligns with my observations , but it’s nasty seeing it graphed out in color by gender.
I’m almost speechless ( typeless? ).
I will have to have a cup of strong tea _ nod to Brits _ and Google more info and try to remain positive about our collective futures.
There’s bound to be a Ray of hope somewhere in the stormy FI induced clusterfuck.
Rollo, you’re working the hell outta my grey matter.
Fuck brain teasers.😁
….how does a man not feel masculine????
Are we in bizzarro world now?
@having a bad day “and then i found out that google really DOES have the answers to all questions…lol…and a bunch of reading and in-field work/effort later… and here we are…lol… so, for me, that accuracy in the knowledge base IS literally the difference btwn life and death for some men out there on the other side of the computer screen… and i consider those men my tribe… so, how hard do you think i SHOULD fight for it?… serious question…” This is why, even when game-aware friends say stuff to me like “I dunno man, like, I know about… Read more »
Great post 🙏…
given the effeminate life of most men, how could they feel masculine? they drive a pussy ass 4 cylinder car to their pussy ass office job and do the same sort of pussy ass work an actual hatchet wound does. Generally they have some pussy ass hobby, think soccer or golf is some how a masculine challenge. They generally own some pussy ass dog, drink pussy ass beer, listen to pussy ass music, and absorb a metricfuckton of ridicule through TV etc etc and told thats what a real man does they don’t feel masculine because they are not masculine… Read more »
@Culum Great stuff. The positive mindset is the first The next part to work on is demonstrating value and communicating sexual intent.
Teasing a girl gets her talking. Then you’ve got to move this towards getting her number or moving the interaction forward.
Lots of interactions are fun but if you’re intent is to move them forward, but more clear in what you want.
You’ll get blown out a few times but once you start getting the routines down, your confidence will increase and you’ll be much more authentic and won’t need to rely on the routines.
Sadly travel prevents my rejoining the dialogue atm…
I will leave this hear in the meantime
http://therationalmale.com/2015/10/14/red-pill-parenting-part-ii/#comment-123521
@Sentient That link didn’t really work this morning at this time but the comment you referred to was at (YaReally October 19th, 2015 at 7:16 pm) in Red Pill Parenting II. Another good essay on “tools in the toolbox” was Ian Ironwood’s essay at The Red Pill Room blog: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 “Aunt Giggles Doesn’t Get It: The Red Pill Is The Toolbox.” He was explaining women’s push back against red pill awareness and game in response to Susan Walsh. In the past, I have not been able to post a link to articles at The Red Pill Room… Read more »
Sparta
15 pound helmet
95 pound shield
45 pound spear
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3588109/Super-human-marathon-runner-Dean-Karnazes-jog-350-miles-without-stopping-thanks-rare-genetic-condition.html
Run into failed
@Rollo Gonna tackle this question?: “You could simply explain to us why the buff gay dude singing britney spears doesn’t moisten pussies even though his arms are still attached to his body.” @redlight “What is being argued here, very effectively by those who are currently fucking multiple women, is the key male attributes are not the physical” Yup. There absolutely are attributes that are attractive and flip those hardwired involuntary attraction responses. They’re just not “muscles” or “money”. They’re the subcomms a level deeper. @Via Vitae “but I thought the debate was over whether women care about looks” If women… Read more »
@YaReally, already did. Said it was incongruent with the masculine sub coms women expect (either hardwired or socially) from muscularly defined men.
You win.
@Jafyk (May 19th, 2016 at 7:13 am) In regards to your question about hooking up red pill enthusiasts in a fight club style manner: it sounds complicated. But a good thought. Perhaps workable, but requiring upkeep of the app and I doubt Rollo has the time to do what you suggested, nor wants to take responsibility for keeping things (like emails) anonymous. I simply don’t know. I don’t know if there is enough critical mass of men in close proximity to work. And Rollo’s point that men congregating in tribes are best to operate in a specific task rather than… Read more »
You guys should be on notice about this — They are going after making it a crime to criticize a woman online: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/05/when-will-the-internet-be-safe-for-women/483473/ “In Clark’s view, the disconnect between what people are experiencing online and how police officers are responding represents a training opportunity. That’s why, in March, she introduced the Cybercrime Enforcement Training Assistance Act, a proposal that would provide federal grant money to local law enforcement for the prevention, enforcement, and prosecution of online crimes against individuals. Funding for better resources is also one clear legislative path on a subject that is, for many reasons, tough to address… Read more »
“and be mindblown at the epic lifehack a bunch of frustrated virgin nerds discovered that defied everything we thought we knew about attraction and may literally have changed the course of evolution when it got widespread enough that all these nerds that were SUPPOSED to die virgins or breed with uggos, ended up breeding with hotties lol”
@Yareally “Look man, you gotta quit being such a Sensitive Sally. Your sensitivity is painting me into some kind of asshole that I’m not actually being.” and “This is just how guys interact.” I accept your criticism of me as a valid point. You’re right. Really. With no hard feelings against you. I apologize and will try not to do it again. (Law #22) “You may not like guys here disagreeing with each other, but I don’t like seeing guys come to us saying “I’m jacked and rich but STILL can’t get laid, I don’t get it, I have all… Read more »
To me a masculine man defines his OWN value system because he knows himself and he knows his internals and he knows what HE accepts/expects from himself and others based on HIS values in the world, not someone else’s
This
See, for example, the Ellison quote I provided
If you think Money+Looks are all you need, you are still trapped in the value system of the matrix. If you can go fuck it, and lose your marriage and dump your education like Ellison did, then you can break free.
Note that females NEVER define their own value system
@SFC Ton why not just punch him in the face? one thing I dislike about game is its reliance on others playing nice bc it’s kind of hard gaming cute girls from the all male lock-up…lol. but that’s a good point in our ongoing ‘discussion’ (lol)… otherwise I want to stay out of the muscles vs subcoms debate. i’m going to pull you in anyway…lol…bc you made a great point here: As most folks know, my theory on SMP value for men is…. everything is a proxy for violence. … tyler is showing 0 fear of aggression by “poaching” those… Read more »
regarding ancient times, which one became king?
What are we going to tell this kid? Go monk mode, start lifting, save money, don’t take risks? Are we going to tell him how to get by IN the matrix or how to live OUT of the matrix?
Male Escort/modeling Company is now hiring. Requirements : Based on our scientific successful marketing , we’re looking for the following. Body type : 1) muscular is a must, but not important . 2) Hight : over 6’2 is a must, but not important.( shorter than 5’6 , you can still apply). 3) hairy. 4) subcomms are important but not a must. 5) body hygiene, is important, but not a must. 6)please attach photos of your body and your face. Everyone can apply ,including : obese men, bald men, skinny men, men with physical disability. Our company’s policy is not discriminatory… Read more »
Say what you want to about golf not being masculine, but it’s still one of the last hold outs against the invasion of male space:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36340197
Red :”regarding ancient times, which one became king?”
In ancient times, Jesus walked on water.
You’re telling me now you can’t tell your son he can walk on water too?
Lol.
Muscles are very important for male escorts because:
“I know a lot of men who do escorting, and the money is only in guys”
You seem quite in touch with what guys are looking for in guys.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/05/09/are-gigolos-real-the-showtime-reality-show-is-not.html
“In ancient times, Jesus walked on water.
You’re telling me now you can’t tell your son he can walk on water too?”
That’s actually a great lesson for your son. I was just reading how Mystery had an LTR with a chick that genuinely believed he was a wizard and had real magic. lol. But I’m sure she was just a dumb bar slut. 😉
Yareally
Hey don’t shoot the messenger… That is you after all.
@rollo do you have any answer for the FACT that the most generous analysis still leaves ONE THIRD of the research leading to data OPPOSITE THAT predicted by the theory? and that rebuttal analysis is just data massaging… the first red flag is the reliance on the p-curve distribution to tease out real effects vs hacking which is so lolly….you can create a right-skewed p-curve simply by increasing the sample size, which in turn decreases SE, which in turn may make the same trivial effect appear extremely stat sig…. “We show by means of simulations that even with minimal omitted-variable… Read more »
Who do you believe Scray?
Oh, Red!!!
Men with muscles are gays ¿
You, Red, have a Matrix of your own.
For the first time in my (manosphere life), I would agree with FI that some men in the manosphere are nuts.
Heheh, golf really is a metaphor for masculine Game with it’s internal (mindset) and external (physical mastery). And don’t tell the guy that gets Alpha Tells after a round of golf with his wife it isn’t masculine. But besides Muirfield, it has been truly invaded by the FI at country clubs all over the world. And the FI is proceeding to mock the sanctity of the actual game of golf. It takes a true alpha mindset to handle the non-hushed chattering of women just off the tee box in the middle of your backswing during couples play. Or the solipsism… Read more »
How can you convince a Mule he’s not a horse.
“Men with muscles are gays”
you have again drawn the wrong conclusion
As to Menstrual Cycle Shifts, I do think the scientific evidence is compelling, and I don’t see much relevance in denial given we already accept PMS.
@rollo
“Who do you believe Scray?”
i believe BOTH of them. they BOTH recognized that fully one third of the research is fucked.
there’s no spin to that beyond red flag.
So what do you believe based on the 2/3rds of the 20+ years of research that is rock solid?
“Or the solipsism of slow play”
we are playing behind two foursomes of women. I now have enough time waiting to write a YaReally sized comment. They are talking and talking and searching for their lost balls. You could move their tees to 50 feet from the hole and it would still take them ages to finish
@rollo
“So what do you believe based on the 2/3rds of the 20+ years of research that is rock solid?”
lol
first of all, it’s only ‘rock solid’ according to ONE side of the debate that used a lot of heavy massaging
second of all, once again — if you want to do SCIENCE DO IT RIGHT
General relativity isn’t a….’well gee guys, it works 66% of the time so it’s the truth and we know it’ sort of affair. it’s a ‘if there’s anything beyond six-sigma measurement error involved this shit may have been falsified.’
So based on the word of a researcher like Wendy Wood what do you believe?
Boy. This is becoming like Ali G on science.
@rollo
my belief is the same as it was at the start — we don’t ‘know’ this, the hypothesis is far from confirmed or even that well supported and there are a lot of facts that seem to be at odds with it.
this could mean a million things
ex maybe it’s just one of many mating strategies women use
So how will that inform your opinion of Red Pill awareness?
“Infield” experiments showed humans can’t travel to the moon (those stupid scientists and their stupid research).
@redlight
Slow play ahead of you in golf–that’s what cigars, keeping Frame and getting those negative thoughts out of your head were invented for.
@rollo ‘So how will that inform your opinion of Red Pill awareness?’ Well if we go back to my original statements on the matter, the number one asset a TRP aware man has is his psyche. TRP is about rejecting SOMEONE ELSE’S paradigm (TBP) and should be about building and following your OWN. His first order of business is self-preservation. ergo, any belief/theory that would lead him to view himself in a negative light must reach the level of scientific (natsci) truth before it is accepted. otherwise it has NO utility for him. any belief/theory that will lead him to… Read more »
@Rollo Ok perfect, thanks for answering. Now a quick quiz for you, simple yes/no answers are fine: “@YaReally, already did. Said it was incongruent with the masculine sub coms women expect (either hardwired or socially) from muscularly defined men.” Ok excellent, so we basically agree that: 1) there are hardwired attraction switches that can be flipped causing the involuntary pussy soaking etc 2) masculine subcomms are what trigger that hardwired attraction response 3) masculine subcomms are universal (ie – confidence is always attractive, entitlement to be physical with her is always attractive, preselection is always attractive, etc basically no disagreement… Read more »
@Rollo (on a totally non-serious note, as I was writing those points up I lol’ed thinking of a thought experiment: I wonder what would you guess would happen in a War Brides situ where the flat-head guys or say just conventionally ugly beta guys killed all the rest of the men and took over lol…say just a horde of flat-head clones (all physcially EXACTLY identical) who are ALL fat and 5’2″ etc, obliterated all other men. And in their society the more jars of peanut butter you had the longer you would be allowed to live and the more status… Read more »
Answers 1-16:
It’s the only logical explanation.
@Rollo “So based on the word of a researcher like Wendy Wood what do you believe?” I’m not in the middle of this one ’cause I don’t care about debating studies, but just stepping in to say that to be fair it doesn’t matter who she is as long as what she’s saying is backed by evidence/data and non-flawed experimentation. Character assassination and credentials-based discrediting is the Feminist/SJW move where they don’t want us to listen to what Red Pill’ers have to say so they say “don’t look at what they’re saying, just look at what a HORRIBLE LOSER this… Read more »
@Rollo
“It’s the only logical explanation.”
Come on man, drop the snark for a few minutes, I’m sure everyone’s tired of this going on for 400 pages.
It’s a simple set of very fair questions that won’t take you more than a couple minutes to answer Yes/No to, to narrow down the discussion to the actual disconnect.
Is your answer to all 16 of those questions, LEGITIMATELY, seriously, without snark, “we can’t know any of this”? Is that really your honest view/position?
I did say I’d remind you.
Well, that has to be the logical answer right?
The data is completely inconclusive so I’d be foolish to say yes until I have hard, incontrovertible data points that confirm what you’re suggesting.
@Rollo
So you’re not going to actually answer those 16 questions that would allow us to understand your viewpoint and clarify both sides of the discussion’s viewpoints?
It’d actually be nice if Scray, Sentient, Having a Bad Day, etc answered them too, so we can all understand what our positions are and have a productive discussion instead of this gay Mean Girls snarking.
@Rollo
“The data is completely inconclusive so I’d be foolish to say yes until I have hard, incontrovertible data points that confirm what you’re suggesting.”
…but I guess that was hoping for too much from an alpha male in his late 40s.
@Rollo
Consider stepping away from the computer for a bit till you’re not emotionally wrapped up in whatever scray’s saying, then come back and re-read the 16 questions and answer them. I’m sure everyone would prefer the discussion went somewhere instead of circling in loops and cat-fighting like this.
Scray is the one you need to be having this discussion with. I’m the one who’s posted essays and book chapters like this:
https://therationalmale.com/2014/10/09/game-works/
But remember, I’m the one driving poor spergs to SLUTHate.
@Rollo
I’m talking to you, not Scray, and I’ve never said that you’re saying game doesn’t work.
Those 16 questions are nice and simple and aren’t biased or loaded with unfair assumptions or anything, I’m just trying to clarify your position and our position. Please help contribute to this conversation being more productive.
You already know what my answers are, there’s 500+ posts and 2 books and 15 years of writing and interacting with men across a hundred forums to answer them, but according to Scray, we’re all either in error or the jury’s still out.
@Rollo
Again chill out on the scray boner for a second. If I knew what your answers were I wouldn’t be asking you to clarify them. You can simply answer Yes/No to the questions, it will take less time than writing another comment about how scray is a poopy-head. Then we can understand your position and where our positions disconnect.
@ya I’m fine with 1-16 but i also allow for the possibility that women will freely fuck the entire ‘tribe’ and that this ‘physiological response’ exists in the presence of many stimuli, and the only real difference is social conditioning (am i allowed to act on this or not?) so i think it could also be ‘1) women are designed to fuck whenever anyone else wants to fuck 2) in post-ag society, there are severe consquences for freely fucking whoever, so women need a reliable way to figure out who they can fuck 3) there are subcomms that convey this… Read more »
I’m still not seeing a big fence up between two sides in the discussion. https://therationalmale.com/2012/07/02/backwards-to-zero/ Rollo: “For all of Men’s best intentions, for all our (dubious) aspirations of ‘higher-self’, what we do, what we are, what we achieve, will always be interpreted through the hypergamous filter of a woman’s perception of us. For all of our attempts to remove ourselves from the Game, Men cannot avoid this. By both biological impulse and social motivators, like it or not we are the performers, we are the approachers, we are the doers, even when (especially when) we think our purpose is not… Read more »
“You can simply answer Yes/No . . .”
Did you stop fucking your goat today?
As a conscientious, rational minded male, I would be irresponsible to answer any of these question because we don’t ‘know’ any of this. The hypotheses are far from confirmed or even that well supported and there are a lot of facts that seem to be at odds with all of them. They could mean a million things.
Any subjective answer I give you could simply be my misinformed and/or biased opinion of inconclusive or fabricated data.
Sorry Scray, only yes or no answers are acceptable.
@rollo
lol dude, you’re not even tracking the discussion to fire off the snark accurately you’re so upset.
our discussion is about whether this shit meets scientific standards of rigor we see in natsci. it doesn’t AINEC, idgaf if you can admit it or not.
ya is just asking you what from 1-16 we can stipulate to
so you replying to him with this snarky shit about unconfirmed hypotheses is just inapt and you’d realize that as a ‘conscientious rational-minded male’ if you weren’t so obviously butthurt