I received this email some time ago, but I felt it needed some serious consideration to give the concept the justice it deserved.
Rollo — You’ve been a major help to my understanding the underlying dynamics between men and women. I’ve observed them in bits and pieces over the years but never really understood the whys behind them or how to turn them in our favor.
It seems like one mid-term focus you have is on male-male dynamics, specifically fathers and sons. But I also wonder whether you’d consider writing more about bonding and support between men and how those relationships can anchor men’s lives at a time when male relationships are regarded with skepticism by larger society. Lately it’s struck me that men tend to innately trust the men they know and distrust those they don’t (and that it’s often the reverse for women). This inclines us to believe women when they decry the “assholes” who have mistreated them in the past while women are empathetic and credulous toward women whose character they don’t know and whom they’ve never met.
Many of us out here are lacking strong male relationships, and our small social circles translate to fewer men we innately trust and more men we innately don’t. Women seem to regard male friendships as a luxury at best–we should be focusing on career, family, and her needs–while women’s friendships are seen as a lifeline in their crazy, have-it-all world. Indeed, a man discouraging his SO’s friendships is widely seen as a sign of emotional abuse, whereas the reverse is “working on the relationship.”
This strikes me as a deep but largely untapped Red Pill well and could provide essential guidance for men looking to live a proud, constructive Red Pill life however women and children might fit into it. I’d definitely welcome your insights in future entries.
Look forward to every post!
Back in February Roosh proposed (and attempted to initiate) a worldwide event that would be a sort of ‘gathering of the tribes’ with the intent of having men get together in small local gatherings to “just have a beer and talk amongst like-minded men.” My impression of the real intent of in putting this together notwithstanding, I didn’t think it was a bad idea. However, the problem this kind of ‘tribes meeting’ suffers from is that it’s entirely contrived to put unfamiliar men together for no other purpose than to “have a beer and talk.” The problem with unfamiliar men coming together simply to meet and relate is a noble goal, however, the fundamental ways men communicate naturally makes the function of this gathering seem strange to men.
The best male friends I have share one or more common interests with me – a sport, a hobby, music, art, fishing, lifting, golf, etc. – and the best conversations I can remember with these friends occurred while we were engaged in some particular activity or event. Even just moving a friend into his new house; it’s about accomplishing something together and in that time relating about shit. When I lived in Florida some of the best conversations I had with my studio guys were during some project we had to collaborate on for a week or two.
Women, make time with the express purpose of talking between friends. Over coffee perhaps, but the act of communication is more important than the event or activity. Even a ‘stitch-and-bitch’ is simply an organized excuse to get together and relate. For women, communication is about context. They are rewarded by how that communication makes them feel. For Men communication is about content and they are rewarded by the interchange of information and ideas.
[…]From an evolutionary perspective, it’s likely that our hunter-gatherer tribal roles had a hand in men and women’s communication differences. Men went to hunt together and practiced the coordinated actions for a cooperative goal. Bringing down a prey animal would have been a very information-crucial effort; in fact the earliest cave paintings were essentially records of a successful hunt and instructions on how to do it. Early men’s communication would necessarily have been a content driven discourse or the tribe didn’t eat.
Similarly women’s communications would’ve been during gathering efforts and childcare. It would stand to reason that due to women’s more collectivist roles they would evolve to be more intuitive, and context oriented, rather than objective oriented. A common recognition in the manosphere is women’s predisposition toward collectivism and/or a more socialist bent to thinking about resource distribution. Whereas men tend to distribute rewards and resources primarily on merit, women have a tendency to spread resources collectively irrespective of merit. Again this predisposition is likely due to how women’s ‘hard-wiring’ evolved as part of the circumstances of their tribal roles.
From this perspective it’s a fairly easy follow to see how the tendency of men to distrust unfamiliar (out-group) men might be a response to a survival threat whereas women’s implicit trust of any member of the ‘sisterhood’ would be a species-survival benefit to the sex that requires the most parental investment and mutual support.
Divide & Conquer
In our post-masculine, feminine-primary social order it doesn’t take a Red Pill Lens to observe the many examples of how the Feminine Imperative goes to great lengths to destroy the intrasexual ‘tribalism’ of men. Since the time of the Sexual Revolution the social press of equalism has attempted to force a commonly accepted unisex expectation upon men to socialize and interact among themselves as women do.
The duplicity in this striving towards “equality” is, of course, the same we find in all of the socialization efforts of egalitarian equalism; demasculinizing men in the name of equality. A recent, rather glaring, example of this social push can be found (where else?) at Harvard University where more than 200 female students demonstrated against a new policy to discourage participation in single-gender clubs at the school. You see, women were very supportive of the breaking of gender barriers when it meant that men could no longer discriminate in male-exclusive (typically male-space) organizations, but when that same equalist metric was applied to women’s exclusive organizations, then the cries were accusations of insensitivity and the banners read “Women’s Groups Keep Women Safe.”
That’s a pretty fresh incident that outlines the dynamic, but it’s important to understand the underlying intent of the “fine for me, but not for thee” duplicity here. That intent is to divide and control men’s communication by expecting them to communicate as women do, and ideally to do so on their own accord by conditioning them to accept women’s communication means as the normatively correct way to communicate. As I’ve mentioned before, the most effective social conventions are the ones in which the participants willingly take part in and willingly encourage others to believe is correct.
Tribes vs. The Sisterhood
Because men have such varied interests, passions and endeavors based on them it’s easy to see how men compartmentalize themselves into various sub-tribes. Whether it’s team sports (almost always a male-oriented endeavor), cooperative enterprises, cooperative forms of art (rock bands have almost always been male space) or just hobbies men share, it is a natural progression for men to form sub-tribes within the larger whole of conventional masculinity.
Because of men’s’ outward reaching approach to interacting with the world around him, there’s really no unitary male tribe in the same fashion that the collective ‘Sisterhood’ of women represents. One of the primary strengths of the Feminine Imperative has been its unitary tribalism among women. We can see this evidenced in how saturated the Feminine Imperative has become into mainstream society and how it’s embedded itself into what would otherwise be diametrically opposed factions among women. Political, socioeconomic and religious affiliations of women (various sub-tribes) all become secondary to the interests of ‘womankind’ when embracing the collective benefits of being women and leveraging both their victim and protected statuses.
Thus, we see no cognitive dissonance when women simultaneously embrace a hostile opposition to one faction while still retaining the benefits that faction might offer to the larger whole of the Sisterhood. The Sisterhood is unitary first and then it is broken down into sub-tribes. Family, work, interests, political / religious compartmentalizations become sublimated to fostering the collective benefits of womankind.
While I can speculatively understand the socio-evolutionary underpinnings of how this psychological dynamic came to be, I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out just how effective this unitary collectiveness has been in shaping society towards a social ideal that supports an unfettered drive towards women’s gender-coded need to optimize Hypergamy. This unitary, gender-primary tribalism has been (and is) the key to women’s unilateral social power – and even in social environments where women still suffer oppression, the Sisterhood will exercise this gender-tribalism.
Threat Assessments
Asserting any semblance of a unitary male tribalism is a direct threat to the Feminine Imperative. In The Threat I began the essay with this summation:
Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.
When I wrote this essay I did so from the perspective of women feeling vulnerable about interacting intimately with men who understood their own value to women and also understood how to leverage it. One of the reasons Game is so vilified, ridiculed and disqualified by the Sisterhood is because it puts this understanding into practice with women and, in theory, removes women from the optimization of Hypergamy. Red Pill awareness and Game lessens women’s control in that equation, which is sexy from the standpoint of dealing with a self-aware high SMV man, but also threatening from the perspective that her security depends on him acquiescing to her Frame and control.
Up to this point, Game has represented an individualized threat to women’s Hypergamous control, but there has always been a larger majority of men (Betas) who’ve been easily kept ignorant of their true potential for control. However, on a larger social landscape, the Feminine Imperative understands the risks involved in men forming a unitary tribe – a Brotherhood – based solely on benefitting and empowering men. The manosphere, while still effectively a collection of sub-tribes, represents a threat to the imperative because its base purpose is making men aware of their true state in a feminine-centric social order.
As such, any attempt to create male-specific, male-empowering organizations is made socially synonymous with either misogyny (hate) or homosexuality (shame). Ironically, the shame associated with homosexuality that a fem-centric society would otherwise rail against becomes an effective form of intra-gender shame when it’s applied to heterosexual collectives of men. Even suggestions of male-centered tribalism are attached with homosexual suspicions, and these come from within the collectives of men themselves.
The above picture is from an “academic” conference (class?) Mediated Feminisms: Activism and Resistance to Gender and Sexual Violence in the Digital Age held at UCL in London. There’s quite a bit more to this than just collecting and codifying the sub-tribes of the manosphere, more can be found here.
Now, granted, this conference is replete with all of the uninformed (not to mention willful ignorance) concern to be expected of contemporary feminists, but this does serve as a current example of how men organizing for the exclusive benefit of men is not just equated with misogyny, but potential violence. As a unitary collective of men, the manosphere terrifies the Feminine Imperative. That fear, however, doesn’t stem from any real prospective violence, but the potential for a larger ‘awareness’ in men of their own conditions and the roles they are expected to play to perpetuate a feminine-centric social order. They fear to lose the control that the ‘socially responsible’ ignorance of men provides them with.
Men’s predisposition to form sub-tribes and intrasexual competition (“lets you and him fight”) has always been a means of covert control by women, but even still the Feminine Imperative must insert its influence and oversight into those male spaces to make use of them. Thus, by assuring that feminine primacy is equated with the idea of inclusive equalism, all Male Space is effectively required to be “unisex space” while all-female sub-tribes must remain exclusively female. For an easy example of this, compare and contrast the reactions to Harvard’s unisex institution of campus club equalism to the worldwide reactions to, and preemption of, the “Tribe” meetings only attempted to be organized by Return of Kings in February.
Making Men
By controlling men’s intrasex communications with each other the Feminine Imperative can limit men’s unified, collective, understanding of masculinity and male experiences. Feminine-primary society hates and is terrified of men defining and asserting masculinity for themselves (to the point of typifying it as potentially violent), but as connectivity progresses we will see a more concentrated effort to lock down the narrative and the means of men communicating male experiences.
I’ve detailed in many prior posts how the imperative has deliberately misdirected and confused men about a unified definition of masculinity. That confusion is designed to keep men guessing and doubting about their “security in their manhood” while asserting that the feminine-correct definition is the only legitimate definition of healthy, ‘non-toxic’, masculinity. This deliberate obfuscation and ambiguity about what amounts to ‘authentic masculinity’ is another means of controlling men’s awareness of their true masculine potential and value – a potential that they rightly fear will mean acquiescing to men’s power over their Hypergamous social and personal control. Anything less than a definition of masculinity that fosters female primacy and fempowerment is labeled “toxic masculinity” – literally and figuratively poisonous.
This is the real, operative reason behind the obsessive, often self-contradicting, need for control of male space by the Feminine Imperative. Oversight and infiltration of male sub-tribes and instituting a culture of self-policing of the narrative within those sub-tribes maintains a feminine-primary social order.
Since the time in which western(izing) societies shifted to unfettering Hypergamy on a social scale there has been various efforts to demasculinize – if not outright feminize – the larger majority of men. Today we’re seeing the results of, and still persistent efforts of this in much starker contrast as transgenderism and the social embrace of foisting gender-loathing on boys becomes institutionalized. A deliberate promotion of a social constructivist narrative about gender identity and the very early age at which children can “choose” a gender for themselves is beginning to be more and more reinforced in our present feminine-primary social order.
As a result of this, and likely into our near future, today’s men are conditioned to feel uncomfortable being “men”. That discomfort is a direct result of the ambiguity and misguidance about conventional masculinity the imperative has fostered in men when they were boys. This feminization creates a gender loathing, but that loathing comes as the result of an internal conflict between the feminine-correct “non-toxic” understanding of what masculinity ought to be and the conventional aspects of masculinity that men need to express as a result of their biology and birthright.
Effectively, this confusion has the purpose of creating discomfort in men among all-male sub-tribes. These masculine-confused men have difficulty with intersocial communication within the sub-tribes they’re supposed to have some sort of kin or in-group affiliation with. Even the concept of “male bonding” has become a point of ridicule (something typical of male buffoons) or suspiciously homosexual , so, combined with the feminine identification most of these men default to, today’s “mangina” typically has more female friends and feels more comfortable communicating as women communicate. These men have been effectively conditioned to believe or feel that male interaction or organization is inherently wrong, uncomfortable or contrived, possibly even threatening if the organizing requires physical effort. Consequently, interacting as a male becomes ridiculous or superficial.
Pushing Back
What then is to be done about this conditioning? For all the efforts to destroy or regulate male tribalism, the Feminine Imperative still runs up against men’s evolved predispositions to interact with the outside world instead of fixating on the inside world of women. Below I’ve pieced together some actionable ideas that might help men come to a better, unitary way of fostering the male tribalism the Feminine Imperative would see destroyed or used as a tool of soci0-sexual control:
- While it is vitally important to maintain a male-specific mental point of origin, together men need a center point of action. Women talk, men do. Men need a common purpose in which the tribe can focus its efforts on. Men need to build, coordinate, win, compete and problem solve amongst themselves. The ‘purpose’ of a tribe can’t simply be one of getting together as like-minded men; in fact, groups with such a declared purpose are often designed to be the most conciliatory and accommodating of the Feminine Imperative. Men require a common, passionate purpose to unite for.
- Understand and accept that men will naturally form male hierarchies in virtually every context if that tribe is truly male-exclusive. There will be a reflexive resistance to this, but understand that the discomfort in acknowledging male hierarchies stems from the Feminine Imperative’s want to make any male authority a toxic form of masculinity. Contrary to feminine conditioning male hierarchies are not necessarily based on Dark Triad manipulations. That is the ‘fem-think’ – any male created hierarchy of authority is by definition evil Patriarchy.
- Recognize existing male sub-tribes for what they are, but do so without labeling them as such. Don’t talk about Fight Club, do Fight Club. As with most other aspects of Red Pill aware Game, it is always better to demonstrate rather than explicate. There will always be an observer effect in place when you call a male group a “male group”. That tribe must exist for a passionate reason other than the express idea that it exists to be about men meeting up. Every sub-tribe I belong to, every collective interest I share with other men, even the instantly forming ones that arise from an immediate common need or function, all exist apart from “being” about men coming together.Worldwide “tribe” day failed much for the same reasons an organization like the Good Men Project fails – they are publicized as a gathering of men just “being” men.
- Push back on the invasion of male space by being uncompromising in what you do and organize with passion. Make no concessions for women in any all-male space you create or join. There will always be a want to accommodate women and/or the fears of not being accommodating of feminine-primary mindsets within that all-male purview. Often this will come in subtle forms of anonymous White Knighting or reservations about a particular passion due to other men’s Blue Pill conditioning to always consider the feminine before considerations of themselves or the tribe. It is vitally important to the tribe to quash those sympathies and compromising attitudes as these are exactly the designs of the Feminine Imperative to destroy a tribe from within.Make no concessions for competency of women within the tribe if you find yourself in a unisex tribal situation. Even the U.S. military is guilty of reducing combat service requirements for women as recently as this month. If you are a father or you find yourself in a role of mentoring boys or young men it is imperative that you instill this no-compromise attitude in them and the organizations that they create themselves.
- The primary Red Pill / Game tenets that you’ve learned with respect to women are entirely applicable in a larger scope when it comes to resisting the influences of the Feminine Imperative. Frame and a return to a collectively male-exclusive Mental Point of Origin are two of the primary tenets to apply to non-intimate applications of resistance in terms of aspects of society. Observations and the Red Pill Lens should inform your interactions with women and men on a social scale.
Finally, I want to close by restating that my approach to resisting the influences of the Feminine Imperative on a meta-social scale is the same bottom-up approach I used with unplugging men from their Blue Pill doldrums. Once men have taken the first steps in Red Pill awareness this new perspective has a tendency to expound into greater social understandings and a want for applications beyond hooking up with desirable women. That Red Pill awareness becomes a way of life, but moreover, it should inform us as men, as tribes, about how best to maintain ourselves as masculine-primary individuals and organizations.
When showing a “infield” incident where a guy “steels” a woman from a good looking guy, how about saying : maybe the good looking guy wasn’t that much interested in her and he LETS you have her? ( don’t bother searching for 1 or 2 videos feel good research) . Gee, talking about yuppie little dogs. Just look at a woman’s eyes and body language when a hunk walks by her. And yes, lots of hunks DO HAVE good subcomms contrary to your beliefs and your ” infield” feel good researches. Okay. Time to take a beer brake. Okay. It’s… Read more »
I’ve been experimenting…bourbon mixed with cocoa liqueur v. bourbon mixed with coconut rum…the cocoa wins, but the rum mix isn’t bad…it’s all a lot smoother mixed and it isn’t watered down.
Oh, and it will knock you on your ass.
@kfg yeah, makes me wonder if I should start reading philosophy to save myself some time reinventing wheels. Its kind of work to follow someone else’s chain of thought, especially if you disagree, but I suppose that’s the price of admission.
@asd What did that Whiskey ever do to you? Have some respect, man!
One more feel hurting.
Why would a hunk who is on Tinder and getting tons of pussy, would bother and bust his ass walking from bar to bar and stand on the street corner(s?)under the weather conditions ?
Now that’s a good question, don’t you think. Why buy the cow when you can get the tingle for free (lol).
RT and Capper (in the comment section) are missing the point. How can male or female respect male bonding when that bonding is easily disrupted by a woman offering herself up to one of the bonded pair.
If the roles were reversed a woman wouldn’t sacrifice her place in the sisterhood for a man.
I also just saw, maybe two weeks ago, a study … think it was the Wash Post but can’t find it now as I don’t have the motivation to look for it. It found that in terms of SMV and accepted physical attractiveness traits, the differences in attractiveness between M-F short-term couplings was within a fairly narrow one or two point range. However, when examining couples in LTRs or couples that were long time friends first etc., that the spread increased in some cases well beyond 1-2 points in the comparative looks ratings. Is this just more junk *science*? I… Read more »
The FI wants men to believe, women are not visual when it comes to “making love”.
But on porn hub! They’re watching people fucking.
Oh honey, I’m not visual when it comes to sex (with you), I like to be romanced. Lol.
Anyone can find the porn hub stats “please”.
Subcomms?
@kfg “Why does the kid prefer the sweet taste to begin with?” It turns out that the physiological affect of sugar can be induced simply by touching a bit of something sweet to the tongue, even in endurance athletes. And so by digging deep enough to get out of their familiar field (and into psychology) 90% of what we have learned about sports physiology over the past century or so can be thrown in the trash. Psychosomatic effects dominate the physical. if you would be so kind, i’d like your opinion on a couple things, if you have one…and don’t… Read more »
@Rollo JFC, man, you’re breaking my heart here. This is a massive “feet of clay” moment. You’re a motherfucking Lion of the manosphere. Without you, men would be thirty years behind where we are now. Yet you’re dropping bitchy comments about Tyler’s illegitimate kids and rebuffing Yareally’s patently sincere attempts to reconcile by pulling this bullshit “but Scray says” stuff? What the fuck is going on? Did you get hacked? Look, I understand that each man must forge his own way, master himself, and make his own value system. You taught me that. And I know that we’re all human,… Read more »
I also think Rollo is being a bit out of character in his replies in the later part of this comments section.
He did say he was ill not too long ago.
You got flim-flammed @schlemrach, go back and re-read the whole thing. It’s like we saw entirely different conversations.
Say I whip out my dick and call it a lollipop, are you going to suck it?
What I mean is, I don’t see why Rollo didn’t just write this reply
https://therationalmale.com/2016/05/15/tribes/comment-page-7/#comment-156961
right away instead of several other ones he did in between. It seems he had some kind of tactic in doing so, I just didn’t get what it was.
@IAS, I don’t know, maybe he was annoyed. I was annoyed. Other guys were annoyed. I think he was being pretty cool about it, actually. But that’s why he has a blog and I have a pseudonym. People are throwing up target reticles on the interwebz, and some of them are getting pointed here. None of us should forget that. But Rollo does not need anyone to speak for him, so I’ll speak for me. I think this place is great. This site deals with sex, in a culture that worships sex, so people who know how to get sex… Read more »
Pardon another interruption. But what could you do with $21,000 a month?
http://pagesix.com/2016/05/20/david-hasselhoff-claims-hes-got-less-4k-in-the-bank/?_ga=1.72344731.900017482.1434638142&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow
KFG 8:36 am
Right on. This is exactly it. Man some good stuff going. Until Monday!
Pm!
@keyser the persistent
Why would a hunk who is on Tinder and getting tons of pussy,
Let’s fix this:
“Why would a hunk who is on Tinder and getting pumped and dumped…”
Cuz, you know, broads will dump men who are insecure and getting jacked is a common way that some men try to hide their insecurity. I’ve seen this out lots because I get out instead of being a keyboard jockey.
@scray
do you have any answer for the FACT that the most generous analysis still leaves ONE THIRD of the research leading to data OPPOSITE THAT predicted by the theory?
cuz that’s such a surprise in social science research…lol
@Rollo
Sorry Scray, only yes or no answers are acceptable.
Wait for it…you know it’s coming…maybe.
@schlemrach, IAS Of course Rollo was pissed at the pissy, pissing match. It seems as though Scray read the “Tao of Badass” while he was taking a few classes in evolution and how to read scientific papers in school. Then he learned PUA. Then he came on this thread and there came a time to talk about tribes and a chance to get a good discussion going about the original post. And he loved that moment as he waved at it as it passed him by. YaReally and Scray were trying to invent a schematic favoring looks don’t matter as… Read more »
Before anyone asks me “What’s your problem?” Let me state my bias for “tribal” comments. My bias is for a more balanced discussion on red pill awareness and game. I’m not asking for where the discussion goes, who says what or calling the tone police. I am merely stating why I am and was being pissy. We’re men, it’s OK to speak overtly. Sometimes a man gets along in life after developing a million dollar business, and heard a lot of lectures in his life, prefers long term relationship with a good woman (monogamous or not), raised good kids for… Read more »
“Why would a hunk who is on Tinder and getting pumped and dumped…”
The hunk doesn’t mind that at all.
The hunk wanted nothing to do with her after he fucked her. And she doesn’t want anything to do with him either.
PUA are teaching to pump and dump too.
And why is that? Is it too hard on them to keep the lie ?
Ps,
I wonder how many woman would want to have off Springs with Steven Hawking , Scary.
@Rollo “And yet, we really can’t because if a woman were to walk into a sperm bank and have the choice to impregnate herself with either of these guy’s sperm based on their pictures, my ‘hunch’ is she’ll go with Male Y. ” Yes, because social conditioning says “Male Y is more likely to have the good subcomms that indicate high survival/rep”, just like in whatever that tribe was the girl would pick the guy with the flattest head, etc “Isolated from all other variables, good looks still denote something sexy.” Because of social conditioning that says it does. In… Read more »
Feminists, fucked with average looking women’s heads that : they can get the top 20% hunks/alphas.
No, you stupid feminists, not all women are equal.
I hope the manosphere doesn’t follow in feminists foot steps.
Fat feminist says :
Hunk males wanting to fuck hb9 is social conditioning.
[…] via Tribes — […]
“… 1) whether or not Rollo’s “20+ years of evo-psych research” could get thrown in the trash in a similar way to above? ” I would predict that large portions of it will be and other portions modified. Like in physiology, however, there will remain a solid foundation to rebuild from; sugar metabolism really does exist and really is necessary. Now the idea that sugar metabolism is primary is, prima facie, goofy, but nearly 100 years has been spent, ala Feryerabend, chasing that red herring down the rabbit hole anyway, and we will only come to understand things better in… Read more »
“THEY INDICATE HIGH SURVIVAL/REPLICATION VALUE”
Because physics.
How much destruction of men’s groups was the work of the FI and how much was the result of governmental group/ organization/ movement infiltration/ undermining/ discrediting?
@Polllllll:
Same difference.
@theasdgamer “Good point. And, following that thought, an immediate shit test follows overthetop confidence.” Right, because she wants to make sure you’re not faking the good subcomms. And when you demonstrate good subcomms by PASSING her shit-test, you flip hardwired triggers that arouse her. @Via Vitae “Assuming Rollo’s wife has no agency or ability to make complex choices between what is a good idea and what is not” Attraction is not a choice. She doesn’t choose to be attracted to confidence. She doesn’t choose to be attracted to a guy who passes her shit-tests. These are involuntary responses that are… Read more »
Ibn Fadlan, Relating his experiences with the Northmen in AD 922: “Now, in the early period of my time among the Venden, the Northwomen would not approach me, on account of my darknes of skin and hair, but there was much whispering and glancing in my direction, and giggles one to another. I saw that these unveiled women would nonetheless make a veil with their hands from time to time, and especially when they were laughing. Then I had asked of Herger: “Why do they do this thing?” for I wished not to behave in a manner contrary to the… Read more »
@kfg
I’m looking at the Lannister article (and muscularity can be predicted from facial features).
i was talking about this one:
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/downloads/Frederick_Haselton_2007_Muscularity_sexy.pdf
but i’ll look over that one too, i bailed on that after i saw the solid subcomms on those guys in the videos.
thanks.
good luck!
PUA :one ugly guy steels hunk’s girl = ALL hunks are like the 1 hunk above.
PUA :one skinny short guy steels muscular guy’s girl = throw Harvard’s studies in the garbage, call to re evaluate evo psychology. (lol).
PUA :one bald guy dates HB5 = all HB 10s want to date bald guys = men all over the world are shaving their heads after seeing bald guy picks up hb5.
Hell, throw Darwin’s theories in the garbage (lol) because Tyler showed us infield video (lol).
Okay.
I’m outta here.
One more thing!.
In Soviet time, the Soviets convinced Russians, Lada (a Soviet made car) is the best car in the world, they had tons of infield videos on TV showing what a great car Lada was. That all changed when the first Russian defected to Germany and drove a Mercedes-Benz.
Hell, in North Korea, the infield communist TV, showed them, they won the world Cup of soccer (lol).
@kfg ““Why does the kid prefer the sweet taste to begin with?” It turns out that the physiological affect of sugar can be induced simply by touching a bit of something sweet to the tongue, even in endurance athletes. And so by digging deep enough to get out of their familiar field (and into psychology) 90% of what we have learned about sports physiology over the past century or so can be thrown in the trash. Psychosomatic effects dominate the physical.” This is an example of drilling deeper and what I’m trying to get Rollo to do and why I’m… Read more »
@HaBD: “i was talking about this one:” It is congruent with physics, biology and AF/BB. I guess that makes it pretty Red Pill, since Blue Pill is not congruent with reality. It is a collection of studies, and I believe I agree with Scray on preferring actual measurement over reporting. I’d like to know which parts of the subject’s brains and genitals “lit up.” The Lannister article is talking about a situation where they were actually trying to find out if there was a difference between lab reports and actual field social interaction, using brain scans. They did find a… Read more »
” look at the quotes of what he’s said which comes off as extremely dishonest debate tactics ”
OK.
“I’m knocking over the pieces, crapping on the board and flying off to declare victory.”
Yep, I agree.
Yareally’s Tyler (the new Darwin) next infield video will be :
How I came down from the mount of Sinai with a new 11 commandments.
And wait for my new infield video when I split the Gulf of Mexico into half .
@Yareally I’m just saying you cant discredit looks and muscularity because all the infield footage shows a pua with high level game pulling girls. This debate is coming down if looks don’t even matter why bother with it, just go out and practice game. But this then just boils down to personal preference, not every guy out there is the same, you will have guys like you and Scary wanting to sarge every night and others who would rather hit the gym every night and sarge on occasion when at the bar. And a whole bunch of other scenarios with… Read more »
@kfg
thanks.
good luck!
“So yes, infield trumps 20 years of research if that research doesn’t align with what’s happening infield.”
This is absolutely crazy. Just cause some guys in the pua scene have recorded some things infield you will toss out 20 years of peer-reviewed research?
That’s the other issue with pua infield data, obv the footage being posted will be majority successful interactions but where is all the footage of the failures (I know you have posted some rejections before) but do you not think perhaps there may be a possibility that Tyler has an equal amount of rejections and pulls but is only posting up pulls? Stuff like this makes it hard to accept at face value especially when Jullian just released that ten game crap purely to make money, its being treated as a business and in a business you do what it… Read more »
“Just cause some guys in the pua scene have recorded some things infield you will toss out 20 years of peer-reviewed research?”
If the twenty years of peer-reviewed research says that creepy guys with punch me face can’t get laid, then yes, toss the research. It’s wrong. Tyler’s videos prove it’s wrong.
Boys!
Go turn on your TV. Breaking news live on every news channels around the world are live out side Tyler and Yareally’s houses.
The scientific community around the world are shocked by the new discovery of Tyler’s infield videos.
Richard Dawkins live on CNN :
“I can no longer stand by my beliefs in biology after watching Tyler’s infield videos ”
Lol.
@kfg “I would predict that large portions of it will be and other portions modified.” This is part of why the early PUA community was so exciting. We had all this shit people told us about how attraction “works” and it turned out that tons of it was bullshit and we were able to stunt all over their studies and rules and just make shit happen infield, banging girls “out of our league” and defying shit like having to wait 3 dates to have sex and laughing at the “you either have it or you don’t, you’re either born with… Read more »
This argument about subcomms vs muscles, like other conversational threads on this site, really separates the men from the boys; if you’ve put your field time in it’s painfully obvious who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t. With all due repsect I’ve always felt that Rollo was a bit of a weenie from his writing and this just confirms it. YaRally/Scray et al you have fought the good fight but you’re just spinning your wheels. On a side note, YaReally I’ve been following you for probably years now and your teachings have been life changing and I think… Read more »
“I mean, is that really such a controversial position to take? If there’s no solid evidence on why something is happening then it’s still technically a theory/hypothesis (whatever the science lingo is) and should be open for questioning, especially if what we can observe infield contradicts parts of it or indicates that we should be drilling deeper into it.”
Yes, infield alone can not be used as a valid baseline for what you are trying to assert.
Where are all these Rollo haters coming out from? lol, its like a mass planned trolling attack.
@YaReally
Right, because she wants to make sure you’re not faking the good subcomms. And when you demonstrate good subcomms by PASSING her shit-test, you flip hardwired triggers that arouse her.
Those shit tests happen so fast that I don’t think that the cortex is even involved. I think that the confidence triggers the shit tests automagically. Those shit tests seem to be hard wired.
Okay, brief FR. Trying to do these all the time now get get more momentum to do stuff. Went to restaurant. Cops were outside. Walked past a couple staring at them curiously. Woman had blue hair. I said “The cops told me they were looking for a woman with blue hair.” She said “Oh wouldn’t be first time.” Then they walked off. Wasn’t trying to start a convo, just get a quick interaction as they walked out the door. Was good because I came up with that right in the moment. I think I am going to use that as… Read more »
@YaReally Imagine we were on the same team, the following is meant as simple feedback rather than an attempt by me to be hostile: “We are not inventing anything. We are reporting how shit works infield. We have tons of infield footage demonstrating it.” I appreciate the hell out of you reporting how shit works in the field and associating that with what Rollo discusses. “That’s why it’s such a mindfuck to see such actively hostile resistance to drilling deep on another area when there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that it needs to be drilled deeper.” It is… Read more »
The funny thing is Yareally and Scary are pushing game to be the be-all end-all of male to female interactions when we are trying to say game is definitely a big factor but looks and muscularity are also advantages. We are using all the resources that we can to get us an advantage. If it doesn’t then no biggie but you guys are adamant in slamming looks to a point where its some sort of personal hatred against it.
@yareally You said “But muscles are not always attractive or Rollo’s wife would bang Jay Cutler when he walks through the room.” I said “Assuming Rollo’s wife has no agency or ability to make complex choices between what is a good idea and what is not” Rollo’s wife may or may not be attracted to his muscles, but she could still not bang the guy for plenty of reasons. You did not prove what you thought you proved. This happens a lot, you need to develop a more careful way of laying out your reasoning. “We’re basically willing to accept… Read more »
@bromeo
game is definitely a big factor but looks and muscularity are also advantages
So when you said life is game 20% jacked 80%, you meant that 20% is a big factor, and 80% is one of the advantages?
@DickBanger “With all due repsect I’ve always felt that Rollo was a bit of a weenie from his writing and this just confirms it.” lol I’m happy my shit has helped you but c’mon man no need for name-calling. @Bromeo “Yes, infield alone can not be used as a valid baseline for what you are trying to assert.” Dunno what to tell ya man. The evidence is sitting right there for you to look at. Check it out for yourself. Watch some Keys to the VIP episodes and some infield hidden cam pickup footage etc and watch for the subcomms.… Read more »
“YaReally and Scray are pushing game to be the be-all end-all of male to female interactions.” Count me in the camp that thinks game is the be-all end-all for all facets in life for those of us that didn’t develop as naturals at any of those facets. I’m all in with learning and applying game. For me it has generated tremendous real power in the last three years. And most of that was from re-engineering my internal mindset which was pretty decent to even better. The red pill is 90% about making you yourself better And the external game is… Read more »
@Bromeo, I agree, I notice a lot of negging and subtle mockery of naturals in this thread, After what I saw in the Kings of VIP, I would probably resent good looking guys having it on easy mode too.
@Rollo, after re-reading some of my responses, I realize that I lost perspective, and want to apologize for talking about your wife. I realize now that I unwittingly helped a cheap shot get more traction than it deserved.
@redlight
Going to be honest with you, that comment was more of a trolly joke lol, but this discussion has gotten pretty serious.
@Yareally
“As I’ve said multiple times (this is that misrepresenting my position thing I’m talking about SJF), we aren’t saying anyone is denying game works or is good. That’s never been the discussion. We’ve even REPEATEDLY said that looks/muscularity will help get you free gimme IOI’s. ENDLESS MILLIONS OF TIMES, we’ve said that shit despite what you guys keep misrepresenting about our position.”
Yea but even though you guys are accepting looks/muscularity will help in getting you free gimme IOI’s, you’re then stating they dont really matter for attraction so you shouldn’t care about it at all.
Continuing coverage on the new findings….
CNN is reporting thousands upon thousands of women are flocking in at Tyler’s house demanding his sperm after watching his subcomms in his infield videos.
Sources tells CNN , tomorrow’s courts all over America is expected to be flooded with women filing for divorce and marring all Tyler’s PUA .
Lol.
@Bromeo they [puas] said that good looking guys have it on easy mode. Not if they have shitty subcomms. And they can’t compete in real life when the competition has game/charm/whateveryawannacallit and they don’t. Looks matter to men a whole lot more than they do to women. Women aren’t men and men aren’t women. Men’s looks matter more to men than they do to women because a lot of men think that women are turned on by looks like men are. It ain’t so. If looks help your subcomms, great! But they don’t help everybody’s subcomms, especially if a handsome,… Read more »
Even if looks/muscularity are social conditioning for females, why not use that to our advantage. More specifically, if a skinny dude doesn’t lift and just works on internals, why is it so far fetched and hard for a jacked dude who lifts to also build those very same internals.
Its almost as if you believe every jacked dude has bad internals, that just simply isn’t true.
clarification: Lol, sorry, somebody ate half of the middle of my paragraph here @2:36 pm: “….referring to my whiny <25 bang comments.." The reason the paragraph sounded obtuse was because half the middle of it– a few more sentences– was missing. I was trying to say I don't give specific advice on how to bang 45 country club crowd with hot smoking married wives (as smoking as middle age wealthy wives can be, monogamous or not). I don’t need specific advice. I just think only talking about banging young chicks is a monopolization of the flow of ideas here even… Read more »
Breaking News :
Eye witness Reports , the first good looking muscular guy trying to commit suicide by jumping from his first floor house into his basement.
In other news, Harvard and Yale canceled all their biology classes.
@Bromeo
Yea but even though you guys are accepting looks/muscularity will help in getting you free gimme IOI’s, you’re then stating they dont really matter for attraction so you shouldn’t care about it at all.
1. Atrraction isn’t arousal.
2. Looks won’t get you laid even though they will give you IOIs.
3. Game will get you laid.
What should you care about?
Sources tell For news :
Body building tournament are being canceled in New York.
Reports :
Gyms are closing their doors
@Bromeo Its almost as if you believe every jacked dude has bad internals, that just simply isn’t true. Nobody is saying this shit. We are saying that LOTS of jacked dudes have shitty internals, not ALL jacked dudes. Lots of dudes with shitty internals get jacked and don’t fix their shitty internals and wonder why they have problems with women. And these same dudes spend time in the gym instead of going out and being around women and learning to fix their shitty internals. If you can both sarge and go to the gym, great! If you have to choose,… Read more »
@yareally
“I link the episode there and break it down in retarded levels of detail”
Agreed.
“it’s not “well he’s jacked so DUHHHHHHH”
Agreed. I could not tell for sure tell from the video, but I suspect he might have been packing a deagle if you know what I mean 😉
@YaReally Ok excellent, so we basically agree that: 1) there are hardwired attraction arousal switches that can be flipped causing the involuntary pussy soaking etc fify…lol (bc we’re talking about AF)… yes… as evidenced by tons of in-field footage and experience, as well as sheer repeat-ability and predictability by anyone putting in the pua work… the fact that it is TEACHABLE and that THAT ‘teachability’ applies across cultures means that it’s most likely hard-wired (most likely eminates from the limbic system)… and that’s enough for our mental model to be as accurate as possible…(until the point at which it is… Read more »
Who is hotter to women…David Spade or David Hasselhoff?
Spade wins in spades because he has superb game.
@yareally as I explained upthread. I see no problem in calling appearance a subcomm. So, as far as I am concerned, you argue with yourself much of the time. This discussion has been riddled through with name-gamery. I am not sure how many participants are aware that their thoughts are funneled through linguistic labyrinths of their own making.
@asdgamer “Nobody is saying this shit. We are saying that LOTS of jacked dudes have shitty internals, not ALL jacked dudes. Lots of dudes with shitty internals get jacked and don’t fix their shitty internals and wonder why they have problems with women.” Even saying lots of jacked dudes having bad internals is inaccurate, not sure where this is being perpetuated from…Yareally would be the only having this stance at least on this comment section from what I can see, others just jump on this conclusion together with the beneficial game stuff he talks about. The assumption that lots of… Read more »
I would actually argue lifting helps build up internals quicker as it teaches discipline, accomplishment, strong will power, it is not solely about externals.
@Bromeo
Even saying lots of jacked dudes having bad internals is inaccurate, not sure where this is being perpetuated from…
Lol, my experience. I’m not a keyboard jockey. I see it when I’m out clubbing.
Good writing HABD!
@Bromeo
Lifting: “….it teaches discipline, accomplishment, strong will power..”
Yes.
I have always gotten more internal value than external value from lifting. Lot and lots of value. Esp just before socializing. I have actually spent intervals in my life lifting hard very hard. And it was always about the internals.
And yes, I have time management skills. And plenty of time in segments of my life to do a broad range of things. Moderation in everything including moderation.
Cue the oft linked Henry Rollins essay:
http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry-rollins
@theasdgamer
“Lol, my experience. I’m not a keyboard jockey. I see it when I’m out clubbing.”
And I see the opposite, who’s right?
Yep, online intellectual debate is a dopamine input. And a surrogate masculine activity in the modern world-of-plenty for tribal hierarchical skirmishes. An opportunity to hone masculine tactical virtues such as strength, courage, mastery and honor among fellow tribal members.
No hard feelings against you guys in the Vennix diagram tribe.
@Bromeo “why is it so far fetched and hard for a jacked dude who lifts to also build those very same internals.” As I’ve answered multiple times: every hour you spend in the gym is anywhere between 1 and like 20+ sets/interactions you could be entering that would help develop your subcomms. Most guys won’t do the gym AND sarge on the same night, they’ll pick one or the other. Work out 3 nights a week to get jacked and that’s 3 nights you’re missing opening sets. Say you’re only going out an hour a night and you’re only doing… Read more »
@Bromeo “Even saying lots of jacked dudes having bad internals is inaccurate, not sure where this is being perpetuated from” Having met a shitload of jacked dudes and testing their frames, reading bodybuilding forums, hearing experiences from bodybuilders about the culture in general, etc etc “The assumption that lots of skinny dudes with bad internals all lift/get jacked but don’t fix their internals is unsound.” Dunno what to tell ya, befriend a bunch of these guys and hang out around them and their buddies and go compete head to head with these guys for the same girls in field and… Read more »
I posted about this popular thread (500+ up votes) on r/TheRedPill https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/4k6l0e/attraction_and_keeping_the_girl_chasing_you/ Now this posting on attraction and what to do/not do, where do you think it was first posted? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=131498033 Bodybuilding! Okay now why do jacked guys need advice? Here’s one comment: The only way you can attract the majority of girls you meet is by being good looking in the face Oh, so the reason why a jacked guy isn’t hooking up is facial. Here’s another comment: My height seems to put a huge hole in my game and while I try to get over it, my height… Read more »
Saw a 6 black waitress at a restaurant. Interacted with her briefly over an order error. 5 min later, she took her break and was sitting out alone. Planned on going for her number, but wanted to finish with my meal first. When I was done, another girl sat next to her, though she was on her cell phone. Still could have done the approach, doubt the cell phone girl would have gotten involved much. Decided not to do anything. Learned a few things. First, when there is an opportunity, take it right away. Good openings usually close fast. Secondly,… Read more »
@yareally. I can’t do what you asked the way you would like because I think we have fundamental differences in how we process information. For instance, I feel you ignore anything people say that does not fit in your paradigm, and straw-quote their words to use as launching points to reiterate your existing POV. If you are running for president, this is what you need to do. If you are trying to hash out a complex social and cognitive framework with people from varying backgrounds, not so much. To underline the dilemma we face, you posted about how you wished… Read more »
@Rollo, @Yareally,
I still don’t think your positions contradict each other.
It’s entirely possible that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, throughout all eras and the entire range of SMV has hardwired a bias for male muscularity*, independent of subcoms, into the female firmware.
it’s also entirely possible that this bias is undetectable noise at the high end of SMV in 2016 big city America from where Yareally reports.
*I forget if we’re talking about all aspects of “looks” or just muscularity.
@Yareally,
I admit that entertaining the idea that looks account for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING really drives home your overall point that a guy needs to be out gaming in target-rich environments at every possible chance.
@Bromeo, @Yareally,
Nobody needs to spend hours a week lifting to get to most of their genetic potential. Can easily be done in an hour per week. You’re not going to become Mr. Universe but to the extent there are pussy benefits from lifting you can get all of them in 1 hour/wk.
“I forget if we’re talking about all aspects of “looks” or just muscularity.” I have no idea what “we” are talking about. I am talking about hight and muscularity and their attractiveness (and JUST their attractiveness, which Ya Really has decided to relabel as Interest*) and as an aside a bit about how they are also scary, but didn’t really get into that, although the two are related. “It’s entirely possible that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, throughout all eras and the entire range of SMV has hardwired a bias for male muscularity*, independent of subcoms, into the… Read more »
“Nobody needs to spend hours a week lifting to get to most of their genetic potential. Can easily be done in an hour per week.”
Male model in 10 minutes a week. You can do that during the commercials of a single, half hour TV show.
They are, however, a fairly brutal 10 minutes.
Kfg, the problem is that it’s really important that Rollo understand this shit. Muscles aren’t going to get you laid. Maybe you older guys can’t grasp how prevalent this line of thinking is out there. The Gym is FULL of insecure guys hoping that adding an inch to their biceps is going to magically start dropping panties and make them feel better about themselves. And you and Sentient and others are fucking up the conversation yelling “BUT IOIs GUYS!!! YOU MIGHT GET SOME IOIs!!!” It’s NOT going to matter for the guy that has been conditioned to believe that women… Read more »
When I think of Rollo, I think of Game. and Frame. and Mental Point of Origin. and Alpha is a mindset. Someone who wrote: he’s got a genuine Alpha-ish bearing that translates into his being self-aware of his condition and really not giving a damn what anyone else might think. He’s got total Frame control, but it’s not an intentional control, and that natural casualness of indifference only makes her want to please him that much more. If “bearing” is not masculine subcomms, I give up. If alpha is a look, game is just one factor, frame is optional, and… Read more »
@redlight “Bodybuilding! Okay now why do jacked guys need advice?” Yup. Everyone will just make excuses based on their view of the world for why success/failure happens. The short or tall guy thinks it’s a height thing, the ugly or perfect face guy thinks it’s a facial aesthetics thing, the poor or rich guy thinks it’s a money thing, etc etc And if the short guy could grow a few feet and still wasn’t getting laid he would say “oh it must be a facial/money” thing depending on what he doesn’t have. It’s an endless cycle because they don’t really… Read more »
@via vitae
“There are not 2 sides there are n sides. But they all seemed to be on the side that game is real and every man should understand game. Isn’t that good enough? Why adopt an all or nothing POV?”
Agreed, its not binary, there are multiple sides. Being ignorant about one side is being close minded.
YaReally Sentient HABD Wala Quixotic Scray and gang: Weekend Friday night FR at a singles party event. Focussing on positives from the evening: -Well, to be honest, basically everything under my control I did – all the actions I wanted. I can’t really fault my actions and escalation for the whole evening – opening, escalating, talking to girls..the works. So that was great. It’s just a mixture of some bad luck and being in a (surprisingly) bad state that meant no results came. -As well as running through Quixotic’s checklist, I found an old 2013-ish post from YaReally to Scray… Read more »
@Yareally The big issue here is your taking PUA and making it an over arching principle for a mans way of life. This is why we have RP forums and PUA forums. I don’t for a second believe RP is only about game, but a wide range of ideas/principles, like building masculinity, having a purpose in life, etc. One subset of RP is how to successfully interact with females and for that game specializes and there is a wealth of information on PUA forums. We are all here to help men unplug, if that means supporting them in all their… Read more »
@kfg, @Yareally
I was being charitable when I said an hour a week but kfg is right … 10 minutes a week is all that’s needed.
I DO NOT want to turn this into a thread discussing the effectiveness of various lifting protocols or criticize the guys who like the gym culture and like to hang out there all the time. Just wanted to show that it’s possible to get most of the benefit of lifting in a very short period of time.
You’re all wrong.
Women aren’t attracted to LOOKS.
They’re attracted to GENES.
@Culum.. “not clicking” I think this is a Blue Pill concept. Game should give you the tools and the confidence to talk to ANY girl and potentially bang her.
The girls I meet and approach…on the surface we have very little in common. But what i’m subcommunicating is raw sexual energy and male dominance.
The “neg” is the perfect opener because it establishes that dominance and forces the girl into qualification mode: “You look…interesting…” immediately gets her talking, questioning, thinking.