Tribes

tribes

I received this email some time ago, but I felt it needed some serious consideration to give the concept the justice it deserved.

Rollo — You’ve been a major help to my understanding the underlying dynamics between men and women. I’ve observed them in bits and pieces over the years but never really understood the whys behind them or how to turn them in our favor.

It seems like one mid-term focus you have is on male-male dynamics, specifically fathers and sons. But I also wonder whether you’d consider writing more about bonding and support between men and how those relationships can anchor men’s lives at a time when male relationships are regarded with skepticism by larger society. Lately it’s struck me that men tend to innately trust the men they know and distrust those they don’t (and that it’s often the reverse for women). This inclines us to believe women when they decry the “assholes” who have mistreated them in the past while women are empathetic and credulous toward women whose character they don’t know and whom they’ve never met.

Many of us out here are lacking strong male relationships, and our small social circles translate to fewer men we innately trust and more men we innately don’t. Women seem to regard male friendships as a luxury at best–we should be focusing on career, family, and her needs–while women’s friendships are seen as a lifeline in their crazy, have-it-all world. Indeed, a man discouraging his SO’s friendships is widely seen as a sign of emotional abuse, whereas the reverse is “working on the relationship.”

This strikes me as a deep but largely untapped Red Pill well and could provide essential guidance for men looking to live a proud, constructive Red Pill life however women and children might fit into it. I’d definitely welcome your insights in future entries.

Look forward to every post!

Back in February Roosh proposed (and attempted to initiate) a worldwide event that would be a sort of ‘gathering of the tribes’ with the intent of having men get together in small local gatherings to “just have a beer and talk amongst like-minded men.” My impression of the real intent of in putting this together notwithstanding, I didn’t think it was a bad idea. However, the problem this kind of ‘tribes meeting’ suffers from is that it’s entirely contrived to put unfamiliar men together for no other purpose than to “have a beer and talk.” The problem with unfamiliar men coming together simply to meet and relate is a noble goal, however, the fundamental ways men communicate naturally makes the function of this gathering seem strange to men.

Women talk, men Do.

The best male friends I have share one or more common interests with me – a sport, a hobby, music, art, fishing, lifting, golf, etc. – and the best conversations I can remember with these friends occurred while we were engaged in some particular activity or event. Even just moving a friend into his new house; it’s about accomplishing something together and in that time relating about shit. When I lived in Florida some of the best conversations I had with my studio guys were during some project we had to collaborate on for a week or two.

Women, make time with the express purpose of talking between friends. Over coffee perhaps, but the act of communication is more important than the event or activity. Even a ‘stitch-and-bitch’ is simply an organized excuse to get together and relate. For women, communication is about context. They are rewarded by how that communication makes them feel. For Men communication is about content and they are rewarded by the interchange of information and ideas.

[…]From an evolutionary perspective, it’s likely that our hunter-gatherer tribal roles had a hand in men and women’s communication differences. Men went to hunt together and practiced the coordinated actions for a cooperative goal. Bringing down a prey animal would have been a very information-crucial effort; in fact the earliest cave paintings were essentially records of a successful hunt and instructions on how to do it. Early men’s communication would necessarily have been a content driven discourse or the tribe didn’t eat.

Similarly women’s communications would’ve been during gathering efforts and childcare. It would stand to reason that due to women’s more collectivist roles they would evolve to be more intuitive, and context oriented, rather than objective oriented. A common recognition in the manosphere is women’s predisposition toward collectivism and/or a more socialist bent to thinking about resource distribution. Whereas men tend to distribute rewards and resources primarily on merit, women have a tendency to spread resources collectively irrespective of merit. Again this predisposition is likely due to how women’s ‘hard-wiring’ evolved as part of the circumstances of their tribal roles.

From this perspective it’s a fairly easy follow to see how the tendency of men to distrust unfamiliar (out-group) men might be a response to a survival threat whereas women’s implicit trust of any member of the ‘sisterhood’ would be a species-survival benefit to the sex that requires the most parental investment and mutual support.

Divide & Conquer

In our post-masculine, feminine-primary social order it doesn’t take a Red Pill Lens to observe the many examples of how the Feminine Imperative goes to great lengths to destroy the intrasexual ‘tribalism’ of men. Since the time of the Sexual Revolution the social press of equalism has attempted to force a commonly accepted unisex expectation upon men to socialize and interact among themselves as women do.

The duplicity in this striving towards “equality” is, of course, the same we find in all of the socialization efforts of egalitarian equalism; demasculinizing men in the name of equality. A recent, rather glaring, example of this social push can be found (where else?) at Harvard University where more than 200 female students demonstrated against a new policy to discourage participation in single-gender clubs at the school. You see, women were very supportive of the breaking of gender barriers when it meant that men could no longer discriminate in male-exclusive (typically male-space) organizations, but when that same equalist metric was applied to women’s exclusive organizations, then the cries were accusations of insensitivity and the banners read “Women’s Groups Keep Women Safe.”

That’s a pretty fresh incident that outlines the dynamic, but it’s important to understand the underlying intent of the “fine for me, but not for thee” duplicity here. That intent is to divide and control men’s communication by expecting them to communicate as women do, and ideally to do so on their own accord by conditioning them to accept women’s communication means as the normatively correct way to communicate. As I’ve mentioned before, the most effective social conventions are the ones in which the participants willingly take part in and willingly encourage others to believe is correct.

Tribes vs. The Sisterhood

Because men have such varied interests, passions and endeavors based on them it’s easy to see how men compartmentalize themselves into various sub-tribes. Whether it’s team sports (almost always a male-oriented endeavor), cooperative enterprises, cooperative forms of art (rock bands have almost always been male space) or just hobbies men share, it is a natural progression for men to form sub-tribes within the larger whole of conventional masculinity.

Because of men’s’ outward reaching approach to interacting with the world around him, there’s really no unitary male tribe in the same fashion that the collective ‘Sisterhood’ of women represents. One of the primary strengths of the Feminine Imperative has been its unitary tribalism among women. We can see this evidenced in how saturated the Feminine Imperative has become into mainstream society and how it’s embedded itself into what would otherwise be diametrically opposed factions among women. Political, socioeconomic and religious affiliations of women (various sub-tribes) all become secondary to the interests of ‘womankind’ when embracing the collective benefits of being women and leveraging both their victim and protected statuses.

Thus, we see no cognitive dissonance when women simultaneously embrace a hostile opposition to one faction while still retaining the benefits that faction might offer to the larger whole of the Sisterhood. The Sisterhood is unitary first and then it is broken down into sub-tribes. Family, work, interests, political / religious compartmentalizations become sublimated to fostering the collective benefits of womankind.

While I can speculatively understand the socio-evolutionary underpinnings of how this psychological dynamic came to be, I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out just how effective this unitary collectiveness has been in shaping society towards a social ideal that supports an unfettered drive towards women’s gender-coded need to optimize Hypergamy. This unitary, gender-primary tribalism has been (and is) the key to women’s unilateral social power – and even in social environments where women still suffer oppression, the Sisterhood will exercise this gender-tribalism.

Threat Assessments

Asserting any semblance of a unitary male tribalism is a direct threat to the Feminine Imperative. In The Threat I began the essay with this summation:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

When I wrote this essay I did so from the perspective of women feeling vulnerable about interacting intimately with men who understood their own value to women and also understood how to leverage it. One of the reasons Game is so vilified, ridiculed and disqualified by the Sisterhood is because it puts this understanding into practice with women and, in theory, removes women from the optimization of Hypergamy. Red Pill awareness and Game lessens women’s control in that equation, which is sexy from the standpoint of dealing with a self-aware high SMV man, but also threatening from the perspective that her security depends on him acquiescing to her Frame and control.

Up to this point, Game has represented an individualized threat to women’s Hypergamous control, but there has always been a larger majority of men (Betas) who’ve been easily kept ignorant of their true potential for control. However, on a larger social landscape, the Feminine Imperative understands the risks involved in men forming a unitary tribe – a Brotherhood – based solely on benefitting and empowering men. The manosphere, while still effectively a collection of sub-tribes, represents a threat to the imperative because its base purpose is making men aware of their true state in a feminine-centric social order.

As such, any attempt to create male-specific, male-empowering organizations is made socially synonymous with either misogyny (hate) or homosexuality (shame). Ironically, the shame associated with homosexuality that a fem-centric society would otherwise rail against becomes an effective form of intra-gender shame when it’s applied to heterosexual collectives of men. Even suggestions of male-centered tribalism are attached with homosexual suspicions, and these come from within the collectives of men themselves.

tribalism_1a

The above picture is from an “academic” conference (class?) Mediated Feminisms: Activism and Resistance to Gender and Sexual Violence in the Digital Age held at UCL in London. There’s quite a bit more to this than just collecting and codifying the sub-tribes of the manosphere, more can be found here.

Now, granted, this conference is replete with all of the uninformed (not to mention willful ignorance) concern to be expected of contemporary feminists, but this does serve as a current example of how men organizing for the exclusive benefit of men is not just equated with misogyny, but potential violence. As a unitary collective of men, the manosphere terrifies the Feminine Imperative. That fear, however, doesn’t stem from any real prospective violence, but the potential for a larger ‘awareness’ in men of their own conditions and the roles they are expected to play to perpetuate a feminine-centric social order. They fear to lose the control that the ‘socially responsible’ ignorance of men provides them with.

Men’s predisposition to form sub-tribes and intrasexual competition (“lets you and him fight”) has always been a means of covert control by women, but even still the Feminine Imperative must insert its influence and oversight into those male spaces to make use of  them. Thus, by assuring that feminine primacy is equated with the idea of inclusive equalism, all Male Space is effectively required to be “unisex space” while all-female sub-tribes must remain exclusively female. For an easy example of this, compare and contrast the reactions to Harvard’s unisex institution of campus club equalism to the worldwide reactions to, and preemption of, the “Tribe” meetings only attempted to be organized by Return of Kings in February.

Making Men

By controlling men’s intrasex communications with each other the Feminine Imperative can limit men’s unified, collective, understanding of masculinity and male experiences. Feminine-primary society hates and is terrified of men defining and asserting masculinity for themselves (to the point of typifying it as potentially violent), but as connectivity progresses we will see a more concentrated effort to lock down the narrative and the means of men communicating male experiences.

I’ve detailed in many prior posts how the imperative has deliberately misdirected and confused men about a unified definition of masculinity. That confusion is designed to keep men guessing and doubting about their “security in their manhood” while asserting that the feminine-correct definition is the only legitimate definition of healthy, ‘non-toxic’, masculinity. This deliberate obfuscation and ambiguity about what amounts to ‘authentic masculinity’ is another means of controlling men’s awareness of their true masculine potential and value – a potential that they rightly fear will mean acquiescing to men’s power over their Hypergamous social and personal control. Anything less than a definition of masculinity that fosters female primacy and fempowerment is labeled “toxic masculinity” – literally and figuratively poisonous.

This is the real, operative reason behind the obsessive, often self-contradicting, need for control of male space by the Feminine Imperative. Oversight and infiltration of male sub-tribes and instituting a culture of self-policing of the narrative within those sub-tribes maintains a feminine-primary social order.

Building Better Betas

Since the time in which western(izing) societies shifted to unfettering Hypergamy on a social scale there has been various efforts to demasculinize – if not outright feminize – the larger majority of men. Today we’re seeing the results of, and still persistent efforts of this in much starker contrast as transgenderism and the social embrace of foisting gender-loathing on boys becomes institutionalized. A deliberate promotion of a social constructivist narrative about gender identity and the very early age at which children can “choose” a gender for themselves is beginning to be more and more reinforced in our present feminine-primary social order.

As a result of this, and likely into our near future, today’s men are conditioned to feel uncomfortable being “men”. That discomfort is a direct result of the ambiguity and misguidance about conventional masculinity the imperative has fostered in men when they were boys. This feminization creates a gender loathing, but that loathing comes as the result of an internal conflict between the feminine-correct “non-toxic” understanding of what masculinity ought to be and the conventional aspects of masculinity that men need to express as a result of their biology and birthright.

Effectively, this confusion has the purpose of creating discomfort in men among all-male sub-tribes. These masculine-confused men have difficulty with intersocial communication within the sub-tribes they’re supposed to have some sort of kin or in-group affiliation with.  Even the concept of “male bonding” has become a point of ridicule (something typical of male buffoons) or suspiciously homosexual , so, combined with the feminine identification most of these men default to, today’s “mangina” typically has more female friends and feels more comfortable communicating as women communicate. These men have been effectively conditioned to believe or feel that male interaction or organization is inherently wrong, uncomfortable or contrived, possibly even threatening if the organizing requires physical effort. Consequently, interacting as a male becomes ridiculous or superficial.

Pushing Back

What then is to be done about this conditioning? For all the efforts to destroy or regulate male tribalism, the Feminine Imperative still runs up against men’s evolved predispositions to interact with the outside world instead of fixating on the inside world of women. Below I’ve pieced together some actionable ideas that might help men come to a better, unitary way of fostering the male tribalism the Feminine Imperative would see destroyed or used as a tool of soci0-sexual control:

  • While it is vitally important to maintain a male-specific mental point of origin, together men need a center point of action. Women talk, men do. Men need a common purpose in which the tribe can focus its efforts on. Men need to build, coordinate, win, compete and problem solve amongst themselves. The ‘purpose’ of a tribe can’t simply be one of getting together as like-minded men; in fact, groups with such a declared purpose are often designed to be the most conciliatory and accommodating of the Feminine Imperative. Men require a common, passionate purpose to unite for.

 

  • Understand and accept that men will naturally form male hierarchies in virtually every context if that tribe is truly male-exclusive. There will be a reflexive resistance to this, but understand that the discomfort in acknowledging male hierarchies stems from the Feminine Imperative’s want to make any male authority a toxic form of masculinity. Contrary to feminine conditioning male hierarchies are not necessarily based on Dark Triad manipulations. That is the ‘fem-think’ – any male created hierarchy of authority is by definition evil Patriarchy.

 

  • Recognize existing male sub-tribes for what they are, but do so without labeling them as such. Don’t talk about Fight Club, do Fight Club. As with most other aspects of Red Pill aware Game, it is always better to demonstrate rather than explicate. There will always be an observer effect in place when you call a male group a “male group”. That tribe must exist for a passionate reason other than the express idea that it exists to be about men meeting up. Every sub-tribe I belong to, every collective interest I share with other men, even the instantly forming ones that arise from an immediate common need or function, all exist apart from “being” about men coming together.Worldwide “tribe” day failed much for the same reasons an organization like the Good Men Project fails – they are publicized as a gathering of men just “being” men.

 

  • Push back on the invasion of male space by being uncompromising in what you do and organize with passion. Make no concessions for women in any all-male space you create or join. There will always be a want to accommodate women and/or the fears of not being accommodating of feminine-primary mindsets within that all-male purview. Often this will come in subtle forms of anonymous White Knighting or reservations about a particular passion due to other men’s Blue Pill conditioning to always consider the feminine before considerations of themselves or the tribe. It is vitally important to the tribe to quash those sympathies and compromising attitudes as these are exactly the designs of the Feminine Imperative to destroy a tribe from within.Make no concessions for competency of women within the tribe if you find yourself in a unisex tribal situation. Even the U.S. military is guilty of reducing combat service requirements for women as recently as this month. If you are a father or you find yourself in a role of mentoring boys or young men it is imperative that you instill this no-compromise attitude in them and the organizations that they create themselves.

 

  • The primary Red Pill / Game tenets that you’ve learned with respect to women are entirely applicable in a larger scope when it comes to resisting the influences of the Feminine Imperative. Frame and a return to a collectively male-exclusive Mental Point of Origin are two of the primary tenets to apply to non-intimate applications of resistance in terms of aspects of society. Observations and the Red Pill Lens should inform your interactions with women and men on a social scale.

 

Finally, I want to close by restating that my approach to resisting the influences of the Feminine Imperative on a meta-social scale is the same bottom-up approach I used with unplugging men from their Blue Pill doldrums. Once men have taken the first steps in Red Pill awareness this new perspective has a tendency to expound into greater social understandings and a want for applications beyond hooking up with desirable women. That Red Pill awareness becomes a way of life, but moreover, it should inform us as men, as tribes, about how best to maintain ourselves as masculine-primary individuals and organizations.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“why is 17 better? look at the free market forces.”

There is no such thing as Sweet 22.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

” a) I disagree with your equation. b) I disagree with your assertion c) the “problem” is saying one thing, then saying 10,000 other things to try and negate the one thing.”

Okay, so I would agree that there might some sort of general aesthetic to a physically attractive man. So, Looks = Social Conditioning + subcomms + general aesthetic. The MAX you’re going to get out of it is a DHV. Do you disagree with that?

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Forge wins the thread.

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

@Harrison Bergeron

“You mean Keys to the VIP?”

Really? lol, you do realize that is a staged show produced on the comedy network? I have seen all the episodes and while there are observable game tactics being used it does not negate that it contains actors and scripting.

Harrison Bergeron
5 years ago

@bromeo “it contains actors and scripting” Not to mention they’re all drunk bar sluts anyway right? Like they’re all 5/10 totally gross. You guys have an excuse for everything lol. What about GLL? Why wasn’t he 5 for 5 in that video? He should have banged them all on looks alone @fleezer ” it’s fucking magic unicorn stuff” You heard it here first guys, it’s all magic, let’s pack up and stop trying to figure it out “Two days ago I was standing in a room with 100 prime girls” Are you a 10th grade teacher? I’m worried for your… Read more »

Frito Pendejo
Frito Pendejo
5 years ago

As I’m days away from my 50th, I’ve really come to believe that men are always at their very core absolutely alone in the world and bear burdens that no woman can even begin to comprehend… It’s the essence of Rollo’s “don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better.” The challenge for men is that we can either complain about it or we can wear it as a badge of honor – the stoic “stiff upper lip”, the Jeremiah Johnson, the renegades, the lone wolves – these are the men who make shit happen in the world. Yes, women… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Sentient “Refer to the first 6 words above” “Caliente level game” = good subcomms. The other words don’t matter except that they mean he fits into the girls’ socially conditioned view of what a guy who’s likely to have good subcomms looks like. And he’s had a lifetime of that same social conditioning that’s told him to feel entitled etc to hot girls which is part of what’s contributed to his good subcomms. This is common sense. “There is no argument that subcomms and game (game encompassing a broader set of actions than subcomms) will overcome any initial looks based… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

I made a thing because work is slow as fuck this week and this Hotseat footage is so good (I haven’t seen the whole program yet so I don’t recommend it yet) and it’s relevant to this looks/subcomms discussion. Inspiration for the weekend, Tyler takes 3 girls off a better looking guy, step by step: http://i.imgur.com/iwrP2kj.png http://i.imgur.com/QhD0TEJ.png http://i.imgur.com/vLpAsin.png http://i.imgur.com/bOSMPc1.png Full album of the full pickup with my breakdowns of the good/bad subcomms going on…give it a read Sentient and Rollo, maybe you’ll finally get what I, scray, Andy, HABD, Tyler, etc have been trying to tell you: http://imgur.com/a/WidPg Drill deeper… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Ahhhh….

“There’s no initial looks-based attraction. There’s initial “likely to have attractive subcomms” attraction.”

“Likely to have subcomms attraction” is based on look. What else could it be based on but an impression formed by visible observation of appearance? and it works on Tinder…

And so the transmogrifying continues…

YaReally
5 years ago

@Sentient ““Likely to have subcomms attraction” is based on look. What else could it be based on but an impression formed by visible observation of appearance? and it works on Tinder…” It could be based on reputation, it could be based on observing how other people react to you, it could be based on interacting with you via texts, it could be based on interacting with you via a phone call, it could be based on seeing a huddle of girls around someone without being able to see who they are because they’re in the middle of it, it could… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

F*K!…like a moth to a flame…lol… ___________________ @Sentient re that jump out of closet thing… that startle response is wired in, nobody is saying that it’s NOT (just like we are NOT saying that arousal triggers are NOT wired in – i think everybody AGREES that they ARE…)… buuut, if dad started jumping out of the closet every day, the kid would soon learn (be socially conditioned) that dad jumping out wasn’t a threat… AND also likely to learn that it’s kind of fun (if DAD imparts that meaning to the interaction by saying laughing and tickling the kid every… Read more »

Harrison Bergeron
5 years ago

@sentient you’ve been intentionally obtuse for over a week now, constantly taking the argument into semantics.

Test it yourself, man. Go out and approach women with good subcomms (please tell me you’ve at least picked up what THOSE are by this point) and with bad. Report back what you find. If you’re not tall dark and handsome, find your best looking buddy, no homo, and have him do the same. Report back what you find.

Because you’re so invested in this, you’re never going to be convinced until you see it first hand.

mersonia
5 years ago

@Yareally

The push back is expected when you (in their view) attempt to take back the greatest excuse (or ego boost) and something that during most of their youth they based their worth on…looks that is.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Harrison – Because I’ve seen it first hand is why I am convinced, you are a late comer to this discussion. There is no semantic subterfuge. I’ve been very clear in language. “Looks” requires visual observation. You don’t form impression on looks via text… those are the endless strawmen that keep growing back in the field. That also does not mean you can’t conjure an impression of A look based on a text. But those things are not the same. Please tell me you understand the difference here. HABD – I’m glad we agree that biological responses are hard wired… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Yareally Please save your time (I enjoy all the RSD stuff for the record btw) you are just planting more strawmen at this point. “Inspiration for the weekend, Tyler takes 3 girls off a better looking guy” There has never been any argument that good game will defeat good looks in field. Read the sentence you wrote “takes 3 girls OFF a better looking guy”. The entire discussion is premised on the later part, the three girls are with the better looking guy to START with. That is the issue, initial attraction, how those 3 girls got with that chodey… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@viv ““If women are allowed to breed with whomever they want free of concerns over provisioning, its reasonable to think the distribution of phenotypes will change”” the distribution of phenotypes has been changing throughout humanity’s history, that’s the point. @sentient “Women will respond/be attracted to good looks, but that does not mean that looks will prevail over better game. Better game does not preclude women being initially attracted to looks.” as i said like at the outset of the entire discussion…. looks don’t matter in the sense that there’s anything UNIVERSAL or OBJECTIVE about them — i.e. constant across evo… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo ” because according to him there is no hard scientific proof for anything that corroborates what a woman’s ‘expectation of valuable genetic traits’ really are.” 1) ya, that’s right there isn’t. please show me HARD scientific proof. if there’s a lot of debate and confusion surrounding x or y, then you don’t have ‘hard scientific proof’ yet. the fact that this riles you is lol and just silly scientism that is part and parcel of the FI. that doesn’t mean there isn’t some stuff here that’s useful as a matter of heuristics or very general guidelines…. 2) ‘Your argument… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

comment image

21st century television made me do it, because the 50s.

quixotic
quixotic
5 years ago

@Frito Great post man. Reminds me of my buddies and how we interact. If you have such reverence for your time with your buddies though tell your wife NO. I think you will regret taking her. Your buddies certainly will. I fucking hate it when one of my boys thinks its cool to bring his gf/wife to a guys only event. It does change it. Even if your friends are still saying filthy vile shit in front of her, it will not be the exact same interaction you would have had without her there. For one you wont be able… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “so just stay chipper and put out positive vibes into the universe and anything you want will be yours.” lol this is more accurate than you think, and the fact that you believe it’s just RIDICULOUS says a lot ‘ because according to him there is no such thing as Hypergamy or AF/BB and the Red Pill is all just Hollywood trying to convince you you suck because you’ve learned all the wrong things’ i didn’t say that. i said you DON’T KNOW about the whole dual mating strategy shit and that at this point it could just be… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “Not unlike Mystery (still suicidal), Owen (with his two illegitimate children), Neil Strauss (who’s hawking this shit) or Tucker Max?” ya the level of frame and inner game you’d have to have to not react to social pressure when you’re that level of celebrity is several SDs to the right and probably some kind of psychopathy —- like cult leaders it’s not surprising that these hotshot nerds who opened pandora’s box are running into tough spots. altho i’m not sure what you’re beef is with Owen. so he had some kids out of wedlock? ‘ It also takes a… Read more »

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

@Rollo: Mystery and the others do seem like they have bad internals, but Tyler seems like he has very good internals. I’m biased because I really like his videos though.

Can you clarify why you think Tyler has bad internals? Is it just because he has kids without being in an LTR / marriage? Given the legal system that seems pretty wise of him to do so.

Didn’t Tucker Max precisely get betaized due to marrying (or LTR’d) and having a kid? Seems like Tyler wanted kids and got them without that, presumably because he doesn’t want that.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “So your entire premise of what constitute good sub coms is entirely subjective to what your perceptions of women’s social conditioning is, thus RSD is selling sweet sunshine to loser Betas. I don’t personally believe that, but that is your premise.” no….. the subcomms that signal high social status, i.e. confidence, slow-speaking, whatever…..are not subjective. the ‘winning’/traits that —> those subcomms vary by environment and society. for example…. one guy wins at tennis –> high t —> core subcomms one guy watches his fav basketball team win the championship —> high t —> core subcomms the subcomms are ALL… Read more »

Harrison Bergeron
5 years ago

@HABD Yea that’s why I was hesitant to pull back into the practical, overview because you guys were doing such a good job fighting the good fight in the trenches of language. @sentient “I’ve been very clear in language. You don’t form impression on looks via text… that also does not mean you can’t conjure an impression of A look based on a text. But those things are not the same. ” Very clear lol “The entire discussion is premised on the later part, the three girls are with the better looking guy to START with. That is the issue,… Read more »

quixotic
quixotic
5 years ago

@Yareally Damn man thank you for posting that epic fucking breakdown of Tyler’s pickup on Yellow girl. Haha poor Blazer. I have been that blazer dude many times and i have been the scumbag tyler while blazer dude stands and watches (albeit with less hot girls lol – that chick in yellow as smoking jeezus but I will get there if i keep putting in the work). I remember the first time i saw a guy who dressed worse than me, shorter, fatter do this “magical” game shit. Now i know its not magic, its observable and its repeatable. I’m… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Harrison

“Very clear lol” – so you understand the difference or not?

“Since we didn’t see their initial interaction, it’s impossible to tell how he got them interested in the first place. ”

We have to play the strawmen as we find them unfortunately. Much is unknown.

“You can’t have one without the other, except maybe like you see a headshot on Tinder. ”

So you can’t have one until you can. I agree.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“you’ll meet jacked dudes, rich dudes, successful dudes who are all broken as fuck inside by this external rat race.

Not unlike Mystery (still suicidal), Owen (with his two illegitimate children), Neil Strauss (who’s hawking this shit) or Tucker Max?”

smh… What are you defending blue pill ideals now? Or are money and muscles a red pill ideal? Marriage? Sigh… “Illegitimate” children… Come on.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Scray

“the first sense is the one” that is bounded by biology…

“the first sense is the one that matters and fucks most guys up because they end up believing that there is something fundamentally wrong with them on a deep level.
like, go out….
you’ll meet jacked dudes, rich dudes, successful dudes who are all broken as fuck inside by this external rat race.”

And this is the underlying cognitive bias, the pain and fear.

Harrison Bergeron
5 years ago

@sentient

No I don’t understand your differentiation between looks and A look.

You’re leaving no choice but to invent straw men and guess at what you’re argument is. You have no counterpoints.

“Can’t until you can…”
Again, you’re not responding to the content of any comments. My example was as close as you can get to “looks in a vacuum” or looks with no context, which doesn’t exist in the real world.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“I’m actually surprised we haven’t encountered a dog-human hybrid yet.”

I wonder what difference there might be that would allow women to fuck dogs, and yet still be picky about men.

Is a puzzlement.

fleezer
fleezer
5 years ago

“There is no such thing as Sweet 22.” ^ THIS!! the social conditioning here is amazing. guys what to talk about real human nature/firmware/evo psych and then back off the second it gets socially uncomfortable. “why is 17 better?” took a look at what the girls do. girls in their prime: wear whatever they want (usually going for comfort). eat whatever they want. wear little to no makeup. never “work out” why would a 23 year old dress uncomfotably according to some hazy “fashion” rules, obesses over her diet, cake her face in makeup and spend hours per week “working… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “Ergo, sub coms are NOT universal” ‘So what pass for good sub coms and good internals (again, still undefined) in one social environment are subjectively bad in another.’ nope. not sure what’s getting lost in translation X LEADS TO HIGHER T WHICH LEADS TO SUBCOMMS the subcomms are ALL THE SAME the variable is X or what constitutes ‘winning.’ ‘Wow, sounds almost like the stimulus of winning prompting a testosterone rush was an evolved trait that in turn prompted social sub coms that women evolved to be attuned to as sexy?’ lol welcome to the party ace, here’s what… Read more »

Harrison Bergeron
5 years ago

@sentient
Let me take a step back. All I’ve seen you do is respond to others comments, explanations, reasoning, etc. Which is great, its the only way to really flesh out ideas.

Maybe you already have and I missed it but, could you explain your position on how and why looks matter? Quantify the advantage.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@fleezer

“girls in their prime: wear whatever they want (usually going for comfort). eat whatever they want. wear little to no makeup. never “work out””

k well as a matter of bio girls are at their best sometime between 20-30, probably between 20-25. White women esp top out at 23-26. that’s when they’re the most fertile….

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Men go out to sarge because they want to make as many babies as possible.

Tin Man
5 years ago

Women Talk, Men Do … That piece of wisdom is priceless.

And for the past few decades, men have become more concerned with what women are saying, than about what we are doing. I have a thought, let’s quit caring what they way, and start caring about what we do.

Tin Man
5 years ago

…what they say**

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “Except that you have, because the tangible biologically advantage cues that account for good sub coms are based on evolved aspects of a Hypergamy you claim doesn’t exist” lol first of all, they don’t need to be based off of hypergamy to exist so there’s a completely unnecessary assumption in your argument. the feedback loop could simply exist to enable tribes to work as a more cohesive unit, the tribe defers to Bob for hunting fish because Bob is good at hunting fish and ACTS like it, so he is the ‘fish’ guy, but when it comes to hunting… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Rollo, nobody has ever said that it isn’t possible to be so delusionally sure of your false, socially conditioned, FI value system that you can have good subcomms. I believe that YaReally even pointed out Trump as an example. The point is that the external attributes are NOT the common denominator…

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Women Talk, Men Do . . .”

I think that what sets me apart from the average MGTOWish guy is that I am not butt hurt over that. I don’t even understand being butt hurt over that.

I note that we have a word to describe people who do nothing: vegetable.

I am not a vegetable. I am an animal, which is to say: animate. I do shit.

“I have a thought, let’s quit caring what they way, and start caring about what we do.”

That would have saved Sweden and Germany.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “What I disagree with is the underpinnings as to why those sub coms are positive or negative in the first place.” except not really! here is what you just said: —> ‘, sounds almost like the stimulus of winning prompting a testosterone rush was an evolved trait that in turn prompted social sub coms that women evolved to be attuned to as sexy?’’ which is essentially restating what I said AWHILE AGO —> ‘seems like there’s less variance wrt to test levels rising after successful competition in men. seems like there’s less variance wrt to T levels remaining higher… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

“What I disagree with is dismissing wholesale the evolutionary psych research that essentially confirms everything Game elicits in men and women. There is a social component to Hypergamy, I’ve made this connection countless times on this blog, but the reason it’s extrapolated into a social/political arena is because it exists on the personal and evolved biological level.” Agreed. Saying, “hypergamy could be a post-civ development that taps into the natural desire to pay attention to those subcomms, or it could be THE natural desire.” is an easy cop out, if you don’t accept any evo psych researched data as base… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Rollo “What constitute good sub coms? Wait, don’t answer, it doesn’t matter, because women will fuck dogs and no one really knows, so just stay chipper and put out positive vibes into the universe and anything you want will be yours.” Are you kidding? Good subcomms are shit like: – confidence – assuming attraction – leading the interaction – leader of men – entitlement to engage her – entitlement to be physical with her – confident eye-contact – laser/bedroom/sexual eye-contact – confident body-language – comfort touching her body – comfort talking about or demonstrating sex/sexuality – decisiveness – comfort invading… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

“this is why I qualified my statements on hypergamy, because yes it is exists BUT what we don’t know is whether it’s a hack into something else that is innate or it itself is the innate thing.”

lol? hypergamy is biological built in firmware for the female species, there are numerous resources and data on this subject not only written by rollo but others in the manoshpere.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@bromeo

” is an easy cop out, if you don’t accept any evo psych researched data as base facts then the whole RP foundational pillars will crumble.”

yeah it’s called accounting for all the facts.

“if you don’t accept any evo psych researched data as base facts then the whole RP foundational pillars will crumble.”

lol i accept ALL of it, and there’s A LOT of it that contradicts your worldview. sorry

scray
scray
5 years ago

@bromeo

“lol? hypergamy is biological built in firmware for the female species, there are numerous resources and data on this subject not only written by rollo but others in the manoshpere.”

please show me studies on the heritability of ‘hypergamy’ or the genes for it and the mechanism or just stfu talking out your ass

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“What I disagree with is dismissing wholesale the evolutionary psych research that essentially confirms everything Game elicits in men and women.”

It’s obvious that practically speaking hypergamy exists… I don’t really see how that ties into looks matter though…

Subcomms convey sexual value. A handsome guy that can buy her a black Tahoe to cart the kids around in conveys socially conditioned value. Nobody wants to be the second guy. So… Looks don’t matter.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . the reason it’s extrapolated into a social/political arena is because it exists on the personal and evolved biological level.” No man has an instinct to power dive on a sparrow. No falcon has an instinct to grab an ass. No Galapagos Iguana worries , despite having a lizard brain. No man can avoid worrying, or being startled by a noise behind him the dark. Because for millions of years sudden death came to him and his from above and behind. The noise is not death, it only implies that there might be death, but the reflexive… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Lol.
Here is the best infield for Yareally and scary and for all the ugly short fat bald guy.

Do us all a favor and :

Go to a sperm bank and try to sell your sperm.
You will be for a rude awaking.
LAUGHING OUT LOUD.

Ps,
Those women in Tyler’s photos , I wouldn’t even look at them.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “And I am saying it is foolish to arbitrarily throw out decades of peer reviewed studies about the biological basis of Hypergamy because it doesn’t slot in nicely with a social constructivist narrative.” it isn’t arbitrary when a meta-analysis of nearly 50 published studies comes up with data that FLATLY DESTROYS the theory. that is a RED FLAG, no matter what ‘data massaging’ rebuttals come out. ‘ about the biological basis of Hypergamy because it doesn’t slot in nicely with a social constructivist narrative.’ this is just another unwarranted assumption that hypergamy must be based on a dual mating… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@keyser soze

dude you’ve been hollering at me for days with no response. take a hint, i don’t like you like that.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

@scary,
Boy, my last comment gave you a rude awaking already.

Ps,
Do forgot, go to sperm bank and try to sell your sperm, that will be enough for you to believe in looks are every thing.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Yareally trying to sell his sperm at the sperm bank :

” but I have good subcomms ”
Lol.

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

Lets just throw out all the evo psyc research and studies and what RP is founded on and just accept all the facets of game as fact because they just somehow work infield… lol ridiculous

Harrison Bergeron
5 years ago

@Rollo ” Would you agree that these sub coms were attractive male traits in ancient Egypt? How about feudal Japan? Colonial America?” Yes. That’s what we’ve been arguing…but that’s not what you’ve been arguing… Lol this is the layer below ‘looks’, these are the attributes that ARE always attractive. To put it into Scray’s formula, these are the behaviours of successful, high achieving men…winners…regardless of society. What causes a man to be a winner, to exhibit these traits my vary across time and space (biggest herd of cows, killing blow on the mastodon, etc.) but a man who wins will… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

why not just punch him in the face?
one thing I dislike about game is its reliance on others playing nice

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Every article on this list can be directly linked to hardwired sexual selection cues, but that’s only relevant if you accept that Hypergamy is rooted in a biologically evolved context.”

Why? Is this the whole pareto distribution thing? What if in the hunter/gatherer days 90% of the guys were Alpha? We don’t know either way, but we’re born Alpha. It would make sense.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . just accept all the facets of game as fact because they just somehow work infield…”

If they work infield it is a fact that they work infield. If it works infield and there is a theory that says it doesn’t, it is the theory that is wrong.

YaReally
5 years ago

@scray @Rollo “which is why this whole discussion seems like the other side refusing to completely swallow the REAL red pill” That’s basically what it looks like. It’s surreal to see the hostility. Like trying to get Blue Pill guys to accept AWALT. “yes women will fuck dogs which is why i immediately laugh when ppl start talking about how innately picky they are, sorry. those two facts don’t go together.” The consistent theme between fucking a dog and fucking a Tyler and fucking a Chad Thundercock (who DOES have all the subcomms he’s “supposed” to have) is the subcomms… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

LOOK AT MY TRIBE GO!!!!!!

You guys absolutely rock like Gibraltar.

Best comments section in the Manosphere, imo.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“why not just punch him in the face?”

Society is to blame.

YaReally
5 years ago

@Andy “smh… What are you defending blue pill ideals now? Or are money and muscles a red pill ideal? Marriage? Sigh… “Illegitimate” children… Come on.” Mindblowing to read that here of all places. What’s going on?? @kfg “I wonder what difference there might be that would allow women to fuck dogs, and yet still be picky about men.” Dogs aren’t socially conditioned to not believe they deserve the girl who’s leg they’re humping when they’re horny. But a huge majority of men ARE. So while dogs don’t have all the subcomms a human dude does (like a dog isn’t making… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Dogs aren’t socially conditioned to not believe they deserve the girl who’s leg they’re humping when they’re horny.”

Dogs are safe.

“What we’re saying is that your theory of looks mattering and muscles = attraction don’t hold up infield.”

Looks being called attractive because they attract did not come out of theory.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Yareally “Reality trumps theory”

How about “reality trumps all the infield videos at the sperm bank”

How come you’re not saying anything about it !

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

The whole dog dynamic kind of reminds me of this movie I had the misfortune of watching. Disney bringing it with the chick porn… lol.

https://youtu.be/mAhGFK5oVcc?t=31s

YaReally
5 years ago

@Rollo “@YaReally, the next time Scray contradicts you (or himself) about how the biological basics of why sub coms are actually socialized cues for a socialized Hypergamy I’ll be sure to remind you of it.” It would be great if you quoted him instead of just saying he’s saying something that he isn’t next time. And Scray may contradict me, he’s been in the game a different length of time than me and I study a lot more infield and field reports etc than he probably does. But I don’t doubt that if he and I sat down and hashed… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Rollo
“why sub coms are actually socialized cues for a socialized Hypergamy”

Also I don’t think anyone has said this. This certainly isn’t my position. The subcomms that flip those attraction triggers and trigger the involuntary wet pussy are hardwired. They’re that list I listed.

What girls view as potentially more likely to HAVE those subcomms is what’s socially conditioned.

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

@Yareally Look at these scenarios (even if we accept your assumption that looks being attractive are socially conditioned) Sarging out at a bar: 1. Skinny guy with no game vs jacked guy with no game (jacked guy has tons more potential) 2. Skinny guy with game vs jacked guy with no game (skinny guy definitely has more potential but jacked will still pull on free ioi’s) 3. Skinny guy with game vs jacked guy with game (jacked guy dominates) This is reality. Not everyone infield is a pua like Tyler or Julien, all the infield footage is taking scenario 2… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Scaaaaaaary, where arrrrrrrre youuuuu.

fleezer
fleezer
5 years ago

“Yareally trying to sell his sperm at the sperm bank : ” but I have good subcomms ” Lol.” lol. the girl flipping through the sperm catalogue: “ivy league? no. business success? no. athletic achievement? no. height? no. long time virgin, unemployed, fat, balding, small dick? hell yes. I’ll take two vials. no make it three. I can tell good subcomms because it’s in my firmware.” web puas making sweeping claims about women’s sexuality without having one minute of experience with women when their sexuality is forming is lol fucking funny. that is incomplete knowledge and the gap is pretty… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ YaReally Thank you for your input sir, ” But no you can do pickup literally anywhere at any time. We have guys going up to families in restaurants in the daytime to try to pick up the daughter and shit lol Personally I prefer to stick to the nightlife because I ENJOY the nightlife scene in general, it’s fun to me and I like girls in dresses strutting around more than girls in hoodies with no makeup during the day and I LIKE the competition etc But if I become sick of the bar scene down the road, I’ll… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Bromeo “1. Skinny guy with no game vs jacked guy with no game (jacked guy has tons more potential)” Yup. Because the socially conditioning for girls says “the jacked guy is probably likely to have the subcomms that indicate survival/replication value” and it says the opposite about the skinny guy. “2. Skinny guy with game vs jacked guy with no game (skinny guy definitely has more potential but jacked will still pull on free ioi’s)” Skinny guy wins, but jacked guy will get laid AS LONG AS NO ONE OR NOTHING INTERFERES and as long as he doesn’t display many… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

” I’m on your side with Hypergamy being biologically hardwired unless the field proves otherwise.

But if the field somehow ends up showing specific data either way, then that’s the way I’ll have to go with because I deal with field data.”

Yareally ALWAYS speak from the two sides of his mouth.

Big fish in small pond believe in its data too.

YaReally
5 years ago

@Blaximus “This is why I’m gonna go out to club/bar with my Friend.” You will probably have a blast because you’re bringing your friend. You two will have fun engaging eachother which radiates good subcomms to all the girls around you and you will probably get “free gimme IOIs” from that but, before this discussion, you would probably attribute them to your looks instead of that list of subcomms that you’ll naturally end up unconsciously demonstrating. “but there must have been a mass whale beaching that I was unaware of” lol go to younger or higher-end venues where those girls… Read more »

quixotic
quixotic
5 years ago

@SJF May 17th, 2016 at 8:29 pm Thanks for linking to your post on “A Teachable Moment.” Hell yes man, mentors. Tony Robbins talks about modeling a lot. Finding someone who already did what you want to accomplish and model yourself after them. Learn what they did, reverse engineer it. Robbins talks a lot about “sub-modalities” which is another word for “subcomms.” Reading Unlimited Power by Robbins helped me a lot. “Asking for someone to be a mentor never works. You are asking what you can take from them. You can’t do that. (See the picking up women PUA game… Read more »

Bellator
Bellator
5 years ago

I guess this is why I have innate ultra-violent tendencies. (Of course I suppress them.) I have no tribe. I want no tribe. I stand alone and prefer to stand alone. This means I have developed some people skills. I can (and have) walked into a biker bar wearing a sport coat with elbow patches…and survived. (I did buy those who wanted to stomp me a few beers.) They thought I was “weird” but “okay”. (I steered the conversation to why they bought the brands of bikes they ride and why they enjoy the road.) So I am definitely “out… Read more »

quixotic
quixotic
5 years ago

@SFCTon “why not just punch him in the face? one thing I dislike about game is its reliance on others playing nice” Haha I can’t argue with that. It would work, like splitting the Gordian knot. Shows dominance, literally force the guy into your frame, caveman game. That is why I love the manosphere, there are a million ways to skin a cat. The only potential problems are dealing with cops/a society that expects you to play nice. i don’t think that concerns you tho lol Hard to deny a lot of girls love a bad boy who isn’t afraid… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

the girl flipping through the sperm catalogue: “ivy league? no. business success? no. athletic achievement? no. height? no. long time virgin, unemployed, fat, balding, small dick? hell yes. I’ll take two vials. no make it three. I can tell good subcomms because it’s in my firmware.”

This is for the morons who don’t believe in science and evo and in true experimental labs where brain activity being mapped , but not on a street vendors.
LAUGHING OUT LOUD.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@YaReally

And the field evidence shows that “muscles = attractive” doesn’t hold up.

Let me play Devil’s Advocate. “Muscles are attractive” really means “muscles +subcomms are attractive”. Of course, nobody disputes that muscles without subcomms are unattractive. Women aren’t visual anything like men are, of course. Women’s vision picks up subcomms, but is really blind to looks…at least where women’s brains evaluate sexual desirability for mating, somewhere in the cerebellum, I think.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Biker bars are easy; if you overstep your bounds you almost always get a chance to make amends. 1%’ers want to sell you drugs/ hookers/ make money off you not stomp your ass because its Tuesday. That shit is bad for business

a club house is a different story

theasdgamer
5 years ago

Funny thing is, today I’m lifting and Tuesday I lifted with a guy who is new to lifting.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

I was around a jacked guy who told me that you don’t get laid on the first date. His subcomms were jacked-up. I totally AMOG-ed him. I’m not jacked. I’m still overweight, but not by a lot. His looks were soooo much better than mine.

YaReally
5 years ago

@quixotic Unfortunately it’s very hard for guys to feel like a millionaire when guys post Harvard studies and shit pushing the FI narrative that they need to get more jacked/rich to “deserve” those millionaire girls. It’s all a mindset shift and rejecting a lifetime of social conditioning. Also I can guarantee your fighting buddy has subcomms that could get him girls without the actual fighting. I have similar buddies that I’ve taught to tone down their bar fighting and focus on getting girls instead lol @theasdgamer ““Muscles are attractive” really means “muscles +subcomms are attractive”. Of course, nobody disputes that… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Rollo
You don’t have to exaggerate my position. You could simply explain to us why the buff gay dude singing britney spears doesn’t moisten pussies even though his arms are still attached to his body.

viavitae
viavitae
5 years ago

@yareally @scray I think you guys missed my point in your responses, which is probably why you did not quote my key point, which is that you are drawing inferences off non-representative data. Women did not select for Gen X men, It is questionable whether they selected for gen Y men, so holding up current men as representative of what women would choose is questionable. MAYBE future generations could be used as representative of what women select for, if you could sift out all the other environmental factors, which include what men decide men will be if they want to… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Thanks Quixotic! you too my man. How’s the world treating you? I’m busy online right now because bad weather has bad bike week boring. Such is life As most folks know, my theory on SMP value for men is…. everything is a proxy for violence. Forced busing in high school created all sorts of problems which greatly improved the SMP value of an ill tempered hillbilly. tyler is showing 0 fear of aggression by “poaching” those chicks. The subcomms are still about signs of not fearing the aggression/ violence of other men. Maybe that would still hold true for him… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Also a 220 pound Great Dane was the best wing man I ever had. Girls were drawn to him. It was crazy some days

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo ” but that’s only relevant if you accept that Hypergamy is rooted in a biologically evolved context.”” nothing i said rules out hypergamy being ‘rooted in a biologically evolved context’ however, hypergamy could the spandrel of -SOMETHING ELSE- or it could be the actual core trait. like I said, you want to do science…please do it right. you keep having to CONSTANTLY misstate things I have said. I have said several times that hypergamy EXISTS and is rooted in something that evolved. that != hypergamy is the innate thing, which is another assumption (among many) you are making. @ya… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@viavitae Rollo was the one who originally brought up “oh yeah?? well if this subcomms thing we’ve only just started mass-teaching that would convince a Tyler to approach hot girls is real then why doesn’t EVERYONE BORN IN THE LAST 100 YEARS LOOK LIKE TYLER YET HUH??” in his initial freakout lol Pretty sure we’re just saying “if you’re going to go by modern day examples of what we’ve evolved to, to base your argument off, then they pretty much support what we’re saying anyway” That’s why I brought up that we need 50+ years of guys learning game and… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@viv “Women did not select for Gen X men, It is questionable whether they selected for gen Y men, so holding up current men as representative of what women would choose is questionable” that’s not what I’m doing, and actually, this point you’re making —- that whoever is on top currently isn’t necessarily representative of who was selected for evolutionarily — is a point we were making, so… ‘It doesn’t even mean you are wrong, it just means that you are using questionable logic, which is pinging a lot of guys’ BS meters. ‘ it’s not ‘questionable logic’ it’s how… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . everything is a proxy for violence.”

Violence is the answer to the ultimate question. It is effectively life itself.

” are 22″ arms considered big?”

” . . . a 20 inch arm almost defies belief; claiming 20 inch
arms – or even larger measurements – is common today, but I have measured many of the largest muscular arms in the world, Pearl’s, Coe’s, Schwarzenegger’s, Viator’s, Oliva’s, Caputo’s, and many other men’s arms, and I have measured only one 20 inch arm” — Arthur Jones

http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/Bulletin2/36.PDF

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo

“the next time Scray contradicts you (or himself) about how the biological basics of why sub coms are actually socialized cues for a socialized Hypergamy I’ll be sure to remind you of it.”

please quote the contradiction?

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