Good Girls, Bad Girls

goodbad

Culum Struan requoted a really great thought from an old commenter, AnonymousBosch, on Heartiste’s blog from about a year ago and I thought it might make for some good weekend discussions:


All I’m getting at is that every woman has an almost psychopathic longing to destroy any perception of being ‘the good girl’. It’s the most common complaint you’ll hear from women:

“It’s so hard being good.”

Women long to indulge their emotions enough to risk being swept away by them, and it’s this self-indulgence that makes them at risk of being self-destructive: they reach a point where they just want to tear everything down, including the Good Girl, and, most commonly, their beauty. An example is hacking off their hair when they have a breakup.

It’s in their songs, it’s in their literature, it’s in their movies. The social pressure to ‘behave’ drives them to distraction, even as they conform to it, meaning they’re internalizing this constant battle to be both good and bad: wanting the social approval, rewards and status for being good but desperately-craving social stigmatization to the degree of martyrdom for being bad.

Feminism, at it’s core, is basically: “Fuck you society, I won’t be the good girl you want me to be!”

This is why it’s beloved of ugly chicks who can’t sexually compete, and those with obvious Daddy Issues.

I see my role, as a man, is to recognize their capacity for depravity, both sexual and emotional, and to offer the dominance and guidance to reign them in. Women, even as they get outraged at the very notion, simply want a man they respect to tell them ‘No’, and offer them structure and guidance. One good way I’ve heard this described on here was “She is the ocean, and you are the rock, and the furies of her storms have no impact on you. You are unyielding.”

If you’re stoic, she gets to indulge her emotions with a safety net that stops her from self-destructing, and she will adore you for it. This is the masculine – feminine relationship. She gets to be weak, knowing you’re her rock. She doesn’t want to lash out at stone that crumbles, whilst simultaneously wanting strong shelter to hide against.

Sexual degradation is part of the risk, and you temper this by always being in control of the situation. Never let her think she’s leading: or her desperation to prove her devotion to you will take her into weird, disgusting places that destroy her.

If you’ve got your player on, I guarantee you will hear some variation of this: “I’d never do this with any other guy, but you make me want to do this and I’m not sure why.”

This is their sexuality out of control by their furious emotional desire to be owned by you – they are swept away – and this is where you need to reign them in with a strong hand and be ‘Daddy’. Otherwise she’ll get stupid notions in her head that by being sexually-outlandish, she’ll be the whore women believe all guys want their wives to be, not realizing that we don’t want to think of the mother of our children blowing dogs and wearing our shit, (unless that’s really your thing).

This is what destroys women and makes the light go out in their eyes: when they degrade themselves for a man they value highly-enough in the hopes of locking him down enough only to eventually disgust him.

Sometimes, the degradation is a sex thing, where she blurts out that she’d blow a horse for you.

Sometimes, it’s physical: she wants you to see her with running mascara and her hair hacked off so you can see how ‘wounded’ and ‘vulnerable’ you’ve made her.

Sometimes it’s emotional: stories of ‘being raped’ or being abused by Exes, designed to fire you up with masculine protective instinct, but instead make you see her as damaged goods. She thinks she is showing you how much she longs for you with these socially-transgressive displays – because Social Status is female currency and power – so deliberately lowering herself in a man’s eyes is the ultimate submission for her – but all she is doing is pushing you away.

During sex: always lead, always control, always structure what is happening. She wants to serve a strong man: show her how to so she doesn’t go off on self-destructive tangents. As McQueen used to say, don’t call her ‘a’ whore, call her ‘your’ whore. Your eyes are your strength here: if she’s sucking your dick, tell her to look at you, so she has nowhere to hide. Call her your ‘good girl’ as she does it.

Basically, structure a performance of faux-degradation and sexual submissiveness she can enact it that makes her feel she’s served a strong man, that stops her crossing into actual degradation, where it starts emotionally-messing her up and leaving scars.

That being said, Millennial Girls seem to possess a capacity for self-loathing and self-destruction I’ve never seen in previous generations.

So, take what is happening in this thread: the transfer of money for sexual degradation. It’s the same core process: she’s telling herself it’s about the money, but it’s about submission before the masculine: the trappings of supreme social and financial power. It’s about thinking she’s high value enough to be submitting to Princes and Kings, so the leap to being crapped on or blowing a dog to prove she is ‘a worthy consort’ is a small one for them.

Obviously, it makes no sense to us, but women seem to be clueless as to what behaviour actually makes them attractive, and not repulsive, to men.”


I think one of the reasons AnonymousBosch finds Millennial girls to be more debased is that these girls are the first generation to be counted among the sum result of a preceding 4 generations of feminist ideologies. Likewise, Millennial men are the products of that same 4-5 generations of emasculation, feminization and the deliberate obfuscation of what masculinity “really is” for them. This deserves some explanation.

I’ve gone into the timelines and the evolution of how Hypergamy has been released from social restraints, wholesale, on western society in my Adaptations series of posts, but it’s a good review to understand what AnonymousBosch is relating here; We keep returning to Hypergamy and its regulation as a basis for an expanded vision of social structure, but it’s important to remember the behavioral prompts that women’s biology predisposes them to in that respect. Since the time of the Sexual Revolution we’ve had a systematic conditioning for, and institutionalization of, a social order that prioritizes women’s Hypergamy as the predominant one.

Unilaterally female-controlled hormonal birth control was certainly a catalyst for this social shift, but it’s important to remember that for the past 4 generations women have been raised and acculturated in a social environment not only rooted in the fempowerment narrative, but also one that encourages the excesses of the ‘bad girl’ side of Hypergamy that AnonymousBosch describes here. And as I mention in that post, the social engineering that’s led to feminine-primacy (as well as erasing the inconvenient aspects of conventional masculinity) all centers on optimizing women’s Hypergamy.

So we experience 2-3 generations of women who are conflicted between what that Fempowerment narrative has taught them they should value and the conventional, evolved biological impulses that predispose them to appreciating, enjoying and submitting to sexy male dominance. Instead of being confused and agonizing over the traditional (old order) ‘Good Girl’ social restrictions that buffered the more damaging consequences of Hypergamy, now women agonize over the conflict between what Fempowerment has conditioned them to believe they should be attracted to in an “equal partner” (Beta Bucks) and their visceral sexual drive for ‘bad’ Alpha dominance in a man they want to lose themselves with.

They’ll still lay claim to the ‘Good Girl’ social convention when it suits their purpose (i.e. during the Epiphany Phase) to affirm their decisions to prioritize a need for long term security – or to excuse past Alpha Fucks sexual needs – but the primary conflict is still the same, an internal war between the contradicting aspects of her sexual strategies and how they influence her life’s decisions and different phases of her maturity.

In her SMV Peak years, “Fuck you society, I won’t be the good girl you want me to be!” is the message she adopts insofar as it serves her sexual strategy’s immediate interests. The conflict comes when she needs to temper this sentiment with a need to settle into a motherhood role and compromise it just enough to present the appearance of being a prudent choice for long term commitment.

I see my role, as a man, is to recognize their capacity for depravity, both sexual and emotional, and to offer the dominance and guidance to reign them in. Women, even as they get outraged at the very notion, simply want a man they respect to tell them ‘No’, and offer them structure and guidance. One good way I’ve heard this described on here was “She is the ocean, and you are the rock, and the furies of her storms have no impact on you. You are unyielding.”

When men first come to Red Pill awareness about the motivations of women’s sexual strategy it’s very easy to see their behaviors as being intentional or their after-the-fact rationalizations for them as being convenient and expedient in excusing them. There is a definite design to the psychological and social schema women will use to explain their actions, particularly when they’re anti-social, sexist and/or damaging to the men who bear the worst of them.

Not to say men should tolerate this, but it’s important for men to understand the underlying psychology and motivators for women’s behaviors. It would seem AnonymousBosch has embraced this understanding. Again, it’s easy to think you’ll just put your foot down and not tolerate women’s bad behaviors, but this ignores those same female-motivators, sacrifices a real understanding of them and attempts to replace learning to maneuver them with the misguided hope that women will be rational agents and change their behaviors because we say so.

Men of this mindset believe the same ‘equalist’ hope that women will cease to be the “most mature teenager in the house” because they rationally explained to them that they should ignore their base motivators (Hypergamy) and act reasonably. This doesn’t work for women, nor does it work for men when women attempt to convince men to adopt a feminist mindset based on exactly the same appeal to reason. The boner doesn’t lie, and neither does women’s sexually strategic behavior.

In an age of unfettered, socially and legally affirmed Hypergamy it’s counterproductive to expect any woman to self-police her own sexual strategies by appealing to her reason.

The good news, as outlined by AnonymousBosch, is that Red Pill awareness and internalized Game are the same buffering contingencies for Hypergamy as they’ve always been. The trick for men now is to reestablish and embrace a connection to the conventional masculinity that’s been systematically conditioned out of men for 2-3 generations. In fact, there’s no better evidence of this Blue Pill conditioning than the common sense of counterintuitive-ness of embracing a masculinity that puts a man into a position of exercising the dominance women need.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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scray
scray
5 years ago

@kfg

“Current world record is 1102 lbs. 500 is less than half that.
For 14 year old girls it’s 310.”

that’s with a shirt that assists with the actual lift.

the WR for unassisted bench press — just a belt and wrist wraps, is 739 lbs.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

kfg

For a millisecond scray had me thinking I was suffering from dementia.

My 21 year old Goddaughrer benches 300.

My bro in law just turned 50, and he still benches 400.

I can’t go really heavy now. My shoulder has the final say on poundage.

I almost called everybody I know to congratulate them on being elite lifters, until I clicked the link and saw it was about powerlifting.

500 pounds barely rates. The percentage regards powerlifter not general population.

Pick it up…put it down.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax

“500 pounds barely rates. The percentage regards powerlifter not general population.”

the general population standards would be EVEN lower….

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“the WR for unassisted bench press . . . is 739 lbs.”

So a bit less than 2/3 instead of less than half. It’s still a big margin.

“the general population standards would be EVEN lower….”

I don’t think that Blaximus is claiming that 500 lbs is a weak lift.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

… I better call my bro in law and yell at him for not sharing his roids. When I trained with my cousins that were ( roided ) amateur bodybuilders, there were many natural guys in the gym that were smaller and stronger than the juicers. There are people in the world that are just genetically strong. It is possible. Size doe not always denote strength. That’s a myth. With 238 pounds being my biggest strength did not rise appreciatively with the size increase. And I won’t argue with the couch sitting hormonal study….. I just advice guys not to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

This guy, and others using bodyweight and bars etc., do some pretty amazing things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo I have my own workout I came up with… one you can do anywhere in about 30 minutes if you keep after it… the 300 plan 4 days – Abs – 30 single leg lifts (less strain on lower back) each leg. 50 standing twists 50 crunches Chest – 25 push ups (4 sets, i.e. 100) Arms/Shoulders – 100/100 dumbell curls lighter weight 15 reps then straight to military press 25 reps then straight back to curls 15 reps Then two sets of heavier weight… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@kfg “So a bit less than 2/3 instead of less than half. It’s still a big margin.” not really, considering the diff between 1st and second place in lifting events can be > 50 pounds. not only that, but when you limit the federations to bona fide drug free organizations and raw lifts, the WR drops off by A LOT https://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/strong-strength-standards-raw-natural-lifters “I don’t think that Blaximus is claiming that 500 lbs is a weak lift.” No, I just said that if he was benching 500 lbs natural, he was executing an elite lift, which is true according to all official… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Sentient

Good stuff.

I used to workout for size and strength. Now I do it for health in older age.

True, one doesn’t absolutely need to go big and heavy to gain benefits. Just do something.

Buuuuttttt…. They can bury my bench and heavy bag with me.😁

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax

“I just advice guys not to try crazy shit like that. One word = aromatization. Sitting around increases the conversion of T to nasty versions of E and DHT.”

aromatization happens whether you bust your ass at the gym or not. guys just have to get an AI to deal with it regardless.

among men who lift, esp lifters who MAKE MONEY off their bodies or lifting or whatever, steroids are common.

and i’m not even talking about OBVIOUS cases like CT Fletcher. I’m talking about > 80-90% of ‘natty lifters’ on youtube as well.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Blax I used to lift when I was younger… in college. started with another guy at a working class bodybuilding gym. always enjoyed it and learned a lot there. That was a hardcore place with a lot of amateur guys coming in after working construction and what not. Roids where prevalent. Thought about them but hate needles LOL. Gyms are great though, when you are young, to learn and respect the hierarchy, to be accepted into it [even though you weigh 80 lbs less LOL]. The problem I have now is time, just going to and from gym is a… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ scray

I get what you are saying.. I resist only because I’ve seen so many people bench 500 and more, that my brain doesn’t see it as elite in any way. Also, I am unclear as to what to official standards really are in regards to… Powerlifter? Squats? Deadlifts? Benches?

Seriously though, thousands must qualify as elite without even knowing or caring.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Oh and do some stretching!

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“> 80-90% of ‘natty lifters’ on youtube as well.” More and more age group amateur cyclists are getting popped for drugs. It’s one of the reasons I no longer compete in traditional, sanctioned events. I’ve mentioned before that I left the pro path over the issue. 15 years ago I took 4 Tylenol to help deal with a runaway fever. 10 years ago I took a Sudafed to deal with the consequences of a yellowjacket not appreciating being mowed. But I take it for granted that in the “outlaw,” honor based competition I currently engage in that many of my… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Scray

Welcome to bodybuilding.com…lol

Aromarization is driven greatly in men by body fat.

A sedentary person not actively engaging in fat burning activity will be subject to more conversion than an exercising, resistance training person.

AI’s will work, but they are a powerful and tricky proposition in themselves as driving E too low will fuck up your whole world quick.

Moderation is best, and lifting works better than sitting if one chooses to artificially enhance their T levels.

No free lunch.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Sentient

Older men need to take more time between sets to prevent injury. Otherwise, I use a similar plan.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax “I resist only because I’ve seen so many people bench 500 and more, that my brain doesn’t see it as elite in any way. Also, I am unclear as to what to official standards really are in regards to… Powerlifter? Squats? Deadlifts? Benches? Seriously though, thousands must qualify as elite without even knowing or caring.” those charts I linked give you the standards wrt each different weight class for a 1rm at that weight. here’s a pretty cool breakdown of even how common a 300 lb bench is http://powerlifter-400.blogspot.com/ altho, T-Nation disagrees re: 300 pound bench but still puts… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

I can’t wait to talk about all of this again in six months.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax “Aromarization is driven greatly in men by body fat.” also greatly repeated myth that while logically sound isn’t true. it’s true that men who have shitty genetic coping mechanisms for test will tend to be fatter and also tend to have shitty aromatization, but it’s not really the bodyfat. it’s how their body deals with the ratio imbalance. you can tell whether you will respond poorly (and really, your genetic predisposition for a lot of other shit) by looking at the DISTRIBUTION of your bodyfat, not the actual fat mass. so if you have tons of fat on your… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

Again this is all an issue of a tool set. Looks, game, money etc all play a role in getting girls. You can still get girls if you are overwhelmingly blessed in one area, but you’re best off with being at least a little adept in all areas. So being jacked helps, just as being well versed in PUA helps. But really, you want a little of everything, How far you go into any one area depends on personal preference. Rollo loves to lift, so he should focus there. Ya really hates it, so it would kill him mood to… Read more »

passing
passing
5 years ago

comment image

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Thinking back…. Waaayyy back, in high school we had a club among the football team called the 300 club. The coach oversaw it. Every player that benched 300 got a t shirt with a barbell and the number ” 300 “. Practically all of us eventually earned one of these shirts, except the kicker. There were at least 12-15 of us with shirts. Once the baseball guys noticed them, they wanted some too. Around 5-6 of them earned shirts. Then the basket ballers wanted in, another 3-4 shirts. Then the stronger country boys asked to give it a go. Another… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax “But I would say that as a whole, dudes don’t care about strength as much any more, and guys are weaker in general. ” progress “… Lmao. Maybe dude at T nation really is on to something, looking at it by current metrics. Maybe there is a vast difference if measured by year and decade, even by region.” highly doubt it. the first man to bench 500 (at least officially on the books) did so in 1953. so if anything, the strength standards going back in time would also be lower. it’s possible you have just been surrounded by… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

YaReally Sentient HABD and others who weighed in on my work conference question: Am in the middle of it now so not much time to read here, but quick question: So far going pretty well for being a complete newbie and not knowing anyone. Major stroke of luck – my old college buddy who I haven’t seen in a years is unexpectedly at the conference and he’s well connected and well known in this circuit so he’s been introducing me to people including some of the biggest names (with the very biggest names there’s not much you can DO in… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Chandler short stories I haven’t read, plus a most excellent title.

FWIW, Chandler basically died of one-itis as many widowers tend to do.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

Just to clarify my comment a little: the key issue seems to be that I’m just not sure how to best conduct myself in the highest value environments/people at the conference – the organizers my buddy introduces me to or the private party for conference insiders he took me to that only advertised by word of mouth etc. Like my general rapport skills need to be better, but I know that and I know what I need to work towards. But when I’m in a group of 3-4 conference insiders/high value people in this career field (both men and women)… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Culum It’s not harder to get that kind of known you my whole life rapport in groups. It’s impossible on a cold approach. Which is why you need to isolate, even just off to the side, or hit them when theybare alone between talks or in the lounge or bar etc. The group experience will only work if you get the group out and do something. But even then it’s more of a shared group experience vs one on one rapport. Same kind of rapport questions work… What would you do if you werent doing this, where would you go… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Aromatization is driven greatly in men by body fat.

Especially visceral fat, which is typical in couch potato / chair commando men.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Culum

“Just to clarify my comment a little: the key issue seems to be that I’m just not sure how to best conduct myself in the highest value environments/people at the conference – the organizers my buddy introduces me to or the private party for conference insiders he took me to that only advertised by word of mouth etc.”

and

“I don’t even have a gameplan..I’m not even sure what I’m aiming for. If that makes sense.”

just try to relax and ‘belong’ there…then, ‘be fun and social’…you know, like game without the sexual stuff…lol…= add value…

good luck!

walawala
walawala
5 years ago

@Culum. In those situations you have to understand everyone is on guard especially during networking or work conferences that’s why everyone talks about hockey or a movie or something. Being a good listener and confidently making eye contact is a way to avoid having to actively lead if you’re not ready to start y a conversation thread. How you stand, look and dress at these things is important. Also if you’re gaming girls… Look for ones who are nervously standing alone and open them… If it’s bigger gathering break the ice … “You look like I feel…” You look Russian,… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Blax Thanks for putting up the CT Fletcher vid,love that guy.ASS U MEing this guy came out of Compton,probably tried allot of different stuff,that didn’t work,got his shit together and never looked back.I highly doubt this dude is or ever was on roids.For one he is to small,you can see from the width his triceps that he does reverse bench for strength.The most important thing is he seems to be teaching leaders how to inspire. Totally chicks dig muscles,but if a man doesn’t show backbone to go with them he is gonna get shit. On the beta tells,my old power… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Culum “I don’t even have a gameplan..I’m not even sure what I’m aiming for. If that makes sense.” I doesn’t make sense to not have a plan. But just some totally random thoughts: Disclaimer: I wasn’t paying attention in class earlier. I don’t know if your principle purpose is to score pussy, or advance your career at a business conference, so take this with a grain of salt. I wrote this up before the last couple guys responded and I hope I am saying the exact same thing as they are in a different context. The same concepts of Pick… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Walawa said: “Being a good listener and confidently making eye contact is a way to avoid having to actively lead if you’re not ready to start a conversation thread.” Wise words indeed. Perfect way to operate when you didn’t have a plan. That worked great for me the other night at the country club after golf buffet dinner. 100% married couples. With husbands who I did not know checking me out and testing me. They have been well acquainted with my wife socially. And I could see the respect with me keeping Frame based on what Walawala advised in a… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@stuffinbox re: the steroid test lol c’mon dudes…. bbers evade drug tests too. it isn’t hard…. you realize that your NON NATTY gains do not INSTANTLY DISAPPEAR when you go off, right? test p is out within 2 weeks. dbol’s out within a month a half…. “.I highly doubt this dude is or ever was on roids.For one he is to small,you can see from the width his triceps that he does reverse bench for strength.The most important thing is he seems to be teaching leaders how to inspire.” lmfao he claims 22 INCH ARMS…in no way is he ‘too… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ stuff CT is on borrowed time. I find it awesome that he gets up and keeps going, and tries to motivate others. He was one of the first black powerlifting record holders. Henhas to be monstersized. After his heart issues he came back in a smaller version, but still pushing massive weights and working to failure. What many consider overtraining. I have no doubt he will die in the gym, or after leaving the gym. He is getting more frail and it is evident in his voice. But that body? At 57-58? And strength? I had a great- uncle… Read more »

Kang
Kang
5 years ago

can anyone suggest some old movies that have a strong masculine man as the main character?

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

… Fistful of dollars. Well, any Clint Eastwood flick.

Depends on your definition of ” strong masculine “.

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Scray

Seriously 22inch biceps pushing 700+ is not body builder,it is weight lifter.

There are body builders that are much bigger and can’t even come close to this kind of power.

This guy doesn’t care about size,only strength.

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Kang
What do you mean by old.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBSj3DUI2to&w=420&h=315%5D

scray
scray
5 years ago

@stuffinbox “Seriously 22inch biceps pushing 700+ is not body builder,it is weight lifter. There are body builders that are much bigger and can’t even come close to this kind of power.” k, and I linked to the natty lifting records and standards which he’s well outside of anyway…. …and he’s supposed to be exceeding them while > 20 years past his prime? notice that his ‘steroids passing test’ had all sorts of shit like high cholesterol and whatever — where do you think that comes from? being a long-term hormone monkey. you can believe in all the fairytales you want… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Here is a chart of standards regarding the bench press.
Kilgore was co-author with Ripptoe of the first two edtions of a on lifting (Ripptoe is sole author of the 3rd edition). Killgore has been involved in this work for over 30 years.

http://www.lonkilgore.com/freebies/bench_standards_pounds_small.pdf

scray
scray
5 years ago

@stuffinbox

ya, with a SHIRT….

Kang
Kang
5 years ago

@Blaximus
thanks. “strong masculine” in the context of masculine image before feminism’s progressive influence on media, so I could perhaps watch and imitate?

@stuffinbox
“old” as in pre-feminism, as described in the post. thanks. the youtube clip seems to be a good example.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Second Clint Eastwood and add Bogart and Mitchum.

Specific movies include:

Cool Hand Luke
Heat (the Burt Reynolds, not the De Niro. Really)
Lawrence of Arabia
The Quiet Man
The 13th Warrior (not that old a movie, but an old story of men, properly told)

And just for a different perspective, a romantic comedy from back in the day when they actually made rom coms for men to watch; Father Goose.

Ishamael
5 years ago

@Kang

Cool Hand Luke is pretty good imo. Although you’ll have to pick through them, there are some newer movies that have good masculine characters too. Vin Diesel in Pitch Black/Chronicles of Riddick/Riddick ain’t bad, off the top of my head. Also think there are both good and bad examples in lots of war movies (Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, We Were Soldiers, etc. etc.). I’ve been looking for more myself though, interested to see what other commenters suggest.

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

@Culum: have you read the book “How to win friends and influence people” (by Dale Carnegie)? It will probably help you with rapport skills. To anyone who has read this book: I haven’t finished yet but I’m having some difficulty reconciling some of the advice there with Red Pill stuff like “be the prize”. It is clear that what the book is trying to be about is bringing value to other people (with sincere compliments) but it seems that trying that with women may make them think they are the prize. Obviously, it is not a book about pick-up, but… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

@all guys who replied – thanks, just glanced at replies. Just got back from another private party…one more day to go of the conference after I get a few hours sleep!

More later.

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Scray

You may be right.I’m having fun discussing it.
I will always side up with the old guy,or some one that has obviously done the work.
Note there is no magic pill or formula to get where we want to be.we have to do the work.And I am just another old guy that will never retire because I love the game.Someday they may have to remove my corpse from the concrete with a jackhammer,I will die trying.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Lol. You guys are great. I should’ve known better than to bring up specifics re: lifting. All of BB/lifting forums on the net are full of disagreements and arguments that seem to never end. Politics, Religion… Lifting/ working out. For decades I’ve watched with my own eyes and the ” experts ” have done multiple 180’s concerning what works and what doesn’t. Even many studies contradict one another. They always have. Lifting is like practicing game. Do research make plan, hit the field or gym, adjust and repeat. If you’re trying to accomplish something that requires skill\strength, one must ignore… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ IAS

You can build rapport and give value to others within your own strong frame. IMO, overly complimenting women does not impart value to them. That’s what we’ve been instructed to do via many sources. That is Blue Pill to the core. Akin to JBY.

Adding value to others does not have to equal supplication on one’s part.

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

@IAS, the key word in Dale Carnegie’s rapport concepts is: *sincere*

Women with any kind of decent looks get complimented and kowtowed to all the time by beta guys with an agenda.

Women want to *earn* compliments from an outcome-independent alpha, who can take her or leave her.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Best case scenario:

Telling Nicole Kidman that she’s beautiful is like telling Bill Walton that he’s tall.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Lol. Exactly.

Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
5 years ago

@rugby11

Thank you for introducing me to Pressfield.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax it’s not really limiting beliefs. it’s just basic physiology. if you’re lifting for an absolute number or for some kind of pre-conceived look you definitely are doing it wrong and are at risk of being tooled later. i lift to uncover more of who I am and who I can be….physically, sure, but mentally as well. i don’t lift for the look I lift for the mental and well-being benefits. BUT…. facts are facts, the lift you named yourself as doing no sweat is an elite lift…if you could do it with good form and not the kind of… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@Blaximus

Always more positive.

I’ve been rereading the Dale Carnegie book, “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. Dale says to not criticize people. But how can you correct someone without criticizing them? That’s a bit of a conundrum. A praise sandwich, maybe…praise the person before and after the criticism to mitigate the ego blast. He uses the “lead a horse to water” idiom for correction, but that does’t always work.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Dale says to not criticize people.”

Dale is using street language, where “criticize” is interpreted in the negative sense. That said:

“But how can you correct someone without criticizing them?”

By praising them when they are correct, thus positively reinforcing correctness.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Rollo

“I was in no way ‘yoked’, but I had a Look that inspired arousal in women to the point that I would reliably get IOIs.”

A lean, defined look, broader shoulders, narrow waist and visible abs are universally appreciated by women – and gay art directors –

from then

comment image

to now

http://explore.calvinklein.com/images/time-line/1982_UN_Webe_Tom.jpg

*Disclaimer [this does not negate, nor diminish the importance of game in sexual success. Game is greater than the look]

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

addendum – the reality is the kitchen will make the best body and the fork is the best piece of equipment you can use…

enrique
enrique
5 years ago

A hamster staring in the mirror at another hamster… http://thoughtcatalog.com/lindsay-tigar/2014/11/i-slept-with-my-ex-for-2-more-years-here-are-7-things-i-learned-from-that-situation/ Just to titillate you a bit, when speaking of sex with her ex, she notes: “1. He kept me from being slutty. My ex and I never had a problem in the bedroom. If anything, it was the place where we really worked. We could switch between intimate and loving to dirty and kinky on a dime. By sleeping with him after a bad date or on a random Sunday afternoon when I desperately wanted to rest my head on a man’s chest, I called him instead of a random… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ scray I’m trying to leave this alone… lol. It will NEVER stop. Just a correction: I didn’t say or mean to imply that 1) 500 lb bench press was ” no sweat “. 2) that I was doing 500 for reps and sets. 1 press at 500. Repeated about 3-4 times a year, just to do it. The whole idea was not to do what Heath did, lol. My goal was 1 solid, correct form press at the ( very hard to bench ) weight to see where my absolute, 100% limit was for a rep. No way was… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “competitive bodybuilder ripped.” that’s not even possible without steroids. steroids and hormones have really messed with people’s ideas of what reasonable goals are naturally. and a lot of people aren’t really that into looking like Ronnie Coleman, so they think the only end result will be to look gross. it’s better to just go look at a greek statue. normal,strong human musculature: http://testosterone-nation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/7696180302_e6e1fba6ba.jpg -SUPERHUMAN DEMI-GOD- musculature http://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/915/flashcards/4088915/png/the_weary_herakles1351750236381-141D88D271D45ECAA64.png look at hunter-gatherers” http://www.science-facts.com/aborigines.jpg if you look anything like that, you will start to FEEL amazing. a lot of bodybuilders walk around half-insane half-zombified because of all the hormones they are taking.… Read more »

enrique
enrique
5 years ago

Blax, I’m convinced genes matter, in powerlifting (and strongman) just as much as short-distance running. I powerlifted for a couple years before getting back into Judo/BJJ, and in my mid-40s, at 175lb, I hit 365/255/405. That’s not ‘elite’, but I trained at home as just a regular dude with a job and kids, and did that with about 18 months of training, starting at basically 135 on all the big three. I’m half Spanish (White, from the Celtic north of Spain) and half Irish Celtic/Nordic…everyone I know who has around 25 percent or more Celtic and/or Nordic blood is unusually… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

I got plenty of IOI’s in my 20’s too. Doesn’t mean shit. I don’t understand how you can admit this guy can get women… …and not come to the conclusion that looks don’t matter. Look at him, LOOK AT HIM! lol. It’s hard, because he’s so fucking ugly. I can’t believe this looks discussion is coming up in a thread where we’re talking about women fantasizing about fucking dogs. I mean, Monster Erotica is a popular section on Amazon. http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1384123168l/18777277.jpg Monsters and dogs aren’t particularly attractive humans. You don’t need to be that strong to overpower a girl. Come on… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax

” So yeah, I’m guilty of training for appearance in the beginning, absolutely. But that was solely for my piece of mind.”

i think everyone starts there, so no big deal.

Arnold nails it here about how important your mind is in bodybuilding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz3E7VqIya0

but MORE IMPORTANTLY he says to GO OUT and APPLY this principle to EVERY aspect to your life.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@andy “not come to the conclusion that looks don’t matter. Look at him, LOOK AT HIM! lol. It’s hard, because he’s so fucking ugly. I can’t believe this looks discussion is coming up in a thread where we’re talking about women fantasizing about fucking dogs” because it’s not that simple like, do looks matter in the sense that outside of crazy genetic abnormalities a woman absolutely won’t FUCK you? no, not in that sense do looks matter in the sense that your looks feed into a huge loop of social norms and expectations that she has been conditioned with all… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“because it’s not that simple”

@scray

I get what you’re saying. But when a poor short skinny-fat ugly balding dude can land models and celebrities? From my perspective that means looks don’t matter.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . if you were hiring an employee would you be hesitant to hire a fat guy?”

To maintain a database? Perhaps.
To haul block? Not on your life.

What caught my eye is that they intend to fix the fat with unlimited amounts of bread, pasta and leaves.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15MwhPv3Ud4 ” if you were hiring an employee would you be hesitant to hire a fat guy?” Reminds me of this episode of 30 Rock… I’ve met with over 30 top end VC firms… in every case the majority of the partners looked like Chad T’Cock, especially East Coast firms. Because institutions are biased in whom they give their money to. I once hired a VP merely because he was movie star good looking (but a sweet natured idiot) and I knew clients would love him… and they did He was essentially an actor but he didn’t know it, playing… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Rollo ” I think it’s real easy for guys to conflate getting into better physical shape than they presently are with getting “yoked” or aspiring to some over-the-top idea of going from overweight to competitive bodybuilder ripped. Guys exaggerate this because it excuses their lack of interest, commitment or just lethargy in changing their lifestyle even marginally to look better.” Lol. I didn’t really run into this mindset until I ventured out of my town. The culture I grew up in was very much about male fitness. The only difference between men was the degrees men went to in… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

…… oh yes, and Game.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIGBnXjUwOk One last bit on this (whole episode above, first 5 minutes very funny as Jack explains “the Bubble”). If you are in great shape when you meet your wife, even a slight diminishment will begin to register on her, especially if she is the female alpha equivalent. I hit my thirties 10 lbs heavier than college weight, not ripped but not a fat guy… still looked fine in suits, still was active, played a sport once a week at a high level etc. way slimmer than almost all the guys I knew my age. But there was a slow… Read more »

mersonia
5 years ago

@Blaximus
” So I do not believe that men can’t get truly huge without chemical assistance. Just ain’t true. Genetics: It’s what’s for breakfast.”

They can …..but like with almost anything most men choose to take the easiest route with the least resistance. Its the biological inclination to maximize value while minimizing effort and time.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@andy “But when a poor short skinny-fat ugly balding dude can land models and celebrities? From my perspective that means looks don’t matter.” why do you have any expectation that a fat ‘ugly’ balding dude can’t land ‘models?’ SOCIETY put that thought in your head that people who look like Tyler can’t get laid. ‘good looking’ isn’t as universal as people pretend it is. and if it isn’t that universal (beyond just being healthy — MAYBE), why accept some other standard of beauty that isn’t YOU? the universal is SOCIAL STATUS — who SEEMS like they’re doing well HERE. ‘Consider… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Funny little update on these waitresses https://therationalmale.com/2016/05/01/ghosts-in-the-machine/comment-page-2/#comment-154456 “The Five” https://therationalmale.com/2016/04/24/fempowerment/comment-page-4/#comment-153468 “The Six” So both these waitresses work at this one place, and they are both working last night… I come in for a short end of happy hour drink. The 6 comes over to serve me, after a little wait. She was working a party of 10 across the room. she comes over sees me… say “Hey baby” and brushes my hair a little. “sorry to keep you waiting” and she is staring at me with hard eye contact [almost Stripper Eye level] so i tease her about having to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

‘good looking’ isn’t as universal as people pretend it is.

Scray

This is universal

comment image

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Sentient “….a little paunch, but if I stood super straight and sucked in, could see a trim guy there looking back… 5’10” 195 42 suit 36 pant.” Lol. That paunch. It is always the last thing to go. I still have a little one that is not visible until I sit down. Wife’s always reminding me to ” sit up straight honey ” and it pretty much vanishes. But I know it’s there. I tipped the scales this a.m. at 217. 4 pounds down from last week. That heavy bag is doing the trick. I’m considering that 20 pound… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ mersonia

” They can …..but like with almost anything most men choose to take the easiest route with the least resistance. Its the biological inclination to maximize value while minimizing effort and time.”

^^^^ This right here is troof ^^^^

scray
scray
5 years ago

‘Scray This is universal’ lol…myth making and social ‘repeat til true’ at its finest…. “Part of the process of becoming a mathematics writer is, it appears, learning that you cannot refer to the golden ratio without following the first mention by a phrase that goes something like “which the ancient Greeks and others believed to have divine and mystical properties.” Almost as compulsive is the urge to add a second factoid along the lines of “Leonardo Da Vinci believed that the human form displays the golden ratio.” There is not a shred of evidence to back up either claim, and… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Rollo – There is a real life example of the “perfect guy” from the Heartiste story – Dr. Robert B. Pamplin Jr. Dr. Robert B. Pamplin, Jr. – Resume Milestones No other living American has earned eight degrees. (Verified by the Guinness Book of World Records, statistics division of the U.S. Department of Education, the American Association of University Professors, and the National Library of Education.) No other living American has received distinction, national recognition, and been successful in five vocations – Businessman, Farmer, Educator, Historical Preservationist and Author. (Verified by the Guinness Book of World Records.) No other living… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I always try to find the easiest way, with the least resistance, to traverse my route. But I tend to pick routes that are difficult enough that I’m not sure whether I can make it or not. Finding out is often the point. And I’ve mentioned before that I don’t intend to leave this world with my boots packed away in the closet because I have no use for them any more. When it comes to near that time, I intend to pick a route I’m pretty damn sure I can’t make and see how far I can pursue it.… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Although I often find that the best use I can make of any particular moment of my time is to do fuck all with it.

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

@Andy >”I can’t believe this looks discussion is coming up in a thread where we’re talking about women fantasizing about fucking dogs” Women don’t just *fantasize” about fucking dogs, and other beasts. If you ever get the chance to read “The Happy Hooker” by Xaviera Hollander, http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hooker-Xaviera-Hollander/dp/B0011VW0U0 you will be treated to her account of having sex with her sister’s German shepherd. This is what the *vast* majority of guys don’t “get.” Women are massively sexual, in different ways than men. Read Nancy Friday’s “My Secret Garden” https://www.amazon.com/My-Secret-Garden-Nancy-Friday-ebook/dp/B00GS4V1QE if you would like to see just how deep the rabbit hole… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

….. Linda Lovelace recounts fucking a dog. Worse, it was filmed and there’s photographic proof.

As I’ve stated, I knew a girl that had sex with her male rotts.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Maybe I was on a different planet for a while? I thought women’s extremity of sexual nature was pretty much known by now.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Sentient

By praising them when they are correct, thus positively reinforcing correctness.

Yeah, that works in dog training to keep dogs from shitting on the carpet.

lol

Sometimes you have to stick the offender’s nose in his shit.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

comment image

theasdgamer
5 years ago

Implication: Dale Carnegie must be creatively interpreted. There’s no point in unnecessarily bruising someone else’s ego or merely being offensive in order to generate good feelings within yourself.

Issues must be made clear. Cause as little pain as possible.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Sometimes you have to stick the offender’s nose in his shit.”

I understand. I answered the question.

“Dale Carnegie must be creatively interpreted.”

There is no Theory of Everything. You are, in the end, in all things, out there on your own.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@scray @Andy @Rollo for me, ex, if i’m short, off the bat, there’s negative norms associated with me, so i need to roll in and DHV to erase that perception and change it. if a lot of positive social norms and pressure comes with my look, then it will make my frame stronger, which will make things easier for me, too. and @scray I get what you’re saying. But when a poor short skinny-fat ugly balding dude can land models and celebrities? From my perspective that means looks don’t matter. from Rollo Good looks are not a handicap to overcome.… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@rollo “the belief that some nebulous “society” dictates what is attractive instead of accepting the truth about evolved arousal cues.” when you show me hard SCIENTIFIC proof of these HARDCORE ‘evolved’ arousal cues, i’m in. just-so evo psych doesn’t cut it. man is the prime social animal. he knows nothing else but society. he LEARNS. “If there was no physical element to arousal the physical standards we commonly associate with being “good looking” now would’ve been selected-out of our collective evolution long ago and what we consider bucking a “society” trend now would be the norm.” first i i didn’t… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

My friend and rugby mate Blake just took his life.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Blaximus

It’s not the weight for me at my age, it’s the distribution. My legs and glutes are shrinking and it’s work to slow or stop it. I can’t really squat heavy enough to really build them now.

Dan John can help with that…lol…high rep heavy squats…too much for me right now (bc i’m old and weak…lol), but you could probably handle 225 for 50 reps…

https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-squat-carry-heavy-stuff-and-shut-up

good luck!

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

To continue, @Andy This also points out the double standard. Men having sex with men is “gross” (“gay” is even used by young people as an epthet for “pathetic”) while women having sex with women is “hot.” A guy jacking off at a BDSM party will get kicked out, while a woman jilling off will attract an approving audience. Men practicing bestiality is pathetic and perverted, while women can have sex with beasts and it’s avant garde and precious. http://gawker.com/this-woman-had-precious-gentle-sex-with-a-dolphin-1588710815 In fact in the link above the woman having sex with a dolphin is described as “gentle” and “precious” while… Read more »

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