While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.
This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.
When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.
From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.
The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.
Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.
When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.
While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.
Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.
For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.
Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.
It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.
You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.
I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.
True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.
And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.
The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.
Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.
How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.
What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.
Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.
All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?
There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.
The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:
The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?
The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.
And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.
This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.
My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.
The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.
The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.
Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).
Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.
And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.
My pleasure @scribblerg – I also get a lot out of it – both the comments and the act of putting my thoughts in writing. I’m also going to start assessing the girl’s personality type after every date, just to get in the habit of analyzing women, although I’m not very good at it yet. . I’ll use the categories set out in the excellent Franco/South Practical Psychology book which is often cited here: Good Girl, Materialista, Adventuress (and can High or Low Self Esteem versions of each of those). The tags are self-explanatory but we just need to remember… Read more »
@Culum S. I wanted to clarify one point I thought I was implying, i.e., enjoy the journey of the hunt. I certainly could join you, but life is a series of moments and remember, regardless of the outcome, it is a moment to savor. I get that you did, and I hope without regret. Thanks again. @All commenters There have been so many great/useful comments and I didn’t tabulate all the great responses, so let me thank by what I remember and excuse for not calling everyone out. This is a great forum with many intelligent, knowledgeable and mature men… Read more »
@SJF
Ohhhh. Power is leverage in all it’s forms as well as the jealous guarding of one’s ability to exercise options and to maneuver as one finds suitable.
Hmmm……so I gots to blow up her frame if I wanna dominate her, no? Hmm one step closer.
….fucking blizzard
@Culum: that is a nice book. They are very much for vetting out Low Self-Esteem women.
I suspect I’m married to a LSE Good Girl, which I think of the LSE types is the most likely to end up married (I think that LSE Adventuress is somewhat easy to vet out even for Blue Pill men).
I’m not sure what to do about the LSE aspects.
@Culum Struan and ScribblerG I’m really hoping that Scribbler can find the time to read that book, because I think it would be good for him to use the practical advice on screening women. I think he would also be very, very good at assessing the personality type, analyzing the high self esteem or low self esteem type and vetting for high sex drive or low sex drive. Of course the downside of vetting is that a guy’s going to end up with a lot of discards. Which means you gotta open more women and have more substrate to work… Read more »
Oh and one more thing: each of these can also come in a High Sex Drive (HD) or Low Sex Drive (LD) version – so it is actually 12 combinations – 3x2x2 (and actually more combinations than that because no one is an archetype…variety of people is infinite)
@Yollo “Hmmm……so I gots to blow up her frame if I wanna dominate her, no?” Not exactly. You have to enter into the relationship with good frame and your own mental point of origin. And then not surrender that in proceeding to carry that relationship forward. If you surrender your frame you are no longer alpha masculine and you are less attractive. If you compromise your ideals and your mission for her, you become less attractive. That is entirely different than blowing up her frame. Blowing up her frame implies destroying part of who she is and her goodness that… Read more »
If a guy intends to fuck a woman, he has to report to the police 24hrs before the act! Hahahahaaa…. By the time the girls in the west pass all the laws that they want passed, there will be no fun even for them. Even as early as in pre-school, girls will playfully pick on a boy and then the boy will playfully chase. They want to get it to the point where if the boy chases, “CALL THE POLICE?!?” That is not really civilization. There are some aspects of human interaction you cannot legislate. Otherwise life becomes just one… Read more »
@SJF; Married man’s game supposedly is harder than LTR and PUA game. I keep reading that all over the place, but find it hard to believe. I am a quiet guy, so PUA game would be challenging for me, as I have been married or LTR all of my adult life. I have been studying the game videos from several of the PUAs on U-tube, because they have such a great attitude towards women, abundance mentality, being the prize, dominance, and just having fun.
@SJF Congratulations man. 27 years. Heh. It’s bound to change something about your approach to her and her quirks. My early experience with the opposite sex, including family, has been fucking horrible. I don’t know if I want to prepare for a future where I’m not giving my women anxiety. If I shed that as a matter of course to mastering the game, they’re all fucking lucky. I got a lot of catching up to do. Lot’s of growing up to do too on my part. Thanks for clarifying it for me. I read the two books, but I guess… Read more »
@ Forge I’ve actually been doing the alone time thing, since I figured her seeing me vulnerable is just not a good idea. I didn’t even think of that as soft dread, but I can definitely see how it is. She’s responded accordingly every time I’ve done that. The tough thing with the boyfriend/girlfriend thing is she explicitly stated that means not having sex with other people. I’m having a hard time taking that with a grain of salt. Should I take that with a grain of salt? On the other hand, months ago she asked me if I didn’t… Read more »
@Yollo,
I never implied not giving your women anxiety. You need her to have anxiety. And you be like an oak tree in a the storm of her anxiety (with your frame and congruent alpha dominance) as her anchor.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/16/the-gift-of-anxiety/
@Pinelero: Married man game is harder than LTR game and LTR game is harder.
Whenever you make “Next” a more costly option (and the *woman knows it*), it makes it harder. And with many marriages leading to a “Next” costing half the man assets, restricted access to his children and so on…
Furthermore, marriage and LTR frequently place the man in a provider role, which can make some things harder as well.
@Softie – I’m on a work project this weekend so i have to concentrate on that but I’m reading your comments and the advice with great interest. I reflect back on how I got lost in my erstwhile wife and see so many parallels – NPD is just another kind of personality disorder. My take is not so formal, and may be off but I had a thought worth sharing. I was blown away by K. when I met her. I can tell you the details of the first night we met still, I was so blown away I didn’t… Read more »
Rollo, not sure if missed your update or where the link is for your live streaming chat today???
Correction, where I say it was “funny” when I was suicidal what I meant to say is that I was relatively easy to stop drinking and other shit, that was not THE issue.
@Pinelero It depends. Your premise is not entirely clear. (Could be the sentence and paragraph structure, or lack thereof….) Married man game does not have the power of next as readily available. Married men use buffers that are readily available to them to make it “easier” Married man game is not harder if someone told you this shit 20 years ago and you had mastery of it. And knew how to maintain that mastery. It is harder when you let the relationship slip into your bad habits and then you have to climb out of the hole. Married man game… Read more »
“Rollo, not sure if missed your update or where the link is for your live streaming chat today?”
Wait five minutes? Pacific Standard time.
The live event is going to be streaming on Niko Choski’s Youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE_FQZTqWIw
If guys are struggling to figger out how to be anonoymous on YouTube, do the following:
1. I do all this under incognito browsing in chrome.
2. Great a new gmail account not linked to your other gmail/google account
3. log into gmail in incognito mode under the new account.
4. go up top right and click on the dots and click on youtube
voila, semi-anonymous youtube account…still know your IP and at some level if you are using google they track everything. but it would be very hard to dox you with that set up.
@all
Thank you for the comments and encouragement, I don’t expect immediate results, and will investigate the sources you mention… Game is something I have peripherally understood but not practiced and I am starting my journey, expect more from me.
@Culum props on the FR…getting better for sure… “She kept giving me compliments..how she liked my grey hair, how 36 is the perfect age etc (she also, very unusually for a 29 year old, doesn’t seem to be looking for an LTR).” lol… how’s that beta baiting feel in situ?…lol…and did you spot it in real time?… “Even more than the sex, my favourite moment on a date is when you feel the electric sexual chemistry as the “love bubble” forms – the moment when your eyes lock…” try that across the room…with a girl you’ve never met…lol… when some… Read more »
@Monty
welcome!…
i don’t have time to get into details but…
“What I am asking is, is there a way to move back to those glimpses of Alpha and beyond them, without destroying what I’ve built for a family… While improving it overall…”
YES!…(i did this…it’s been about 4 years for me) and more…and this is one of the best places to start…
good luck!
@Monty “Game is something I have peripherally understood but not practiced and I am starting my journey, expect more from me.” There is some danger in “purple pill” advice such as that from Athol Kay. The reason is that you can’t be half in on red pill. And it leans in to much to the feminine. And risks de-polarizing the masculine–feminine desire dynamic. The red pill does not endorse purple pill. And indeed red pill may not be for you. But Game is important for your masculine power and for your sexual strategy. That being said, the first thing in… Read more »
@soft
I figured her seeing me vulnerable is just not a good idea
actually since you want (need really) to turn her off completely …
@Yolo “Ohhhh. Power is leverage in all it’s forms as well as the jealous guarding of one’s ability to exercise options and to maneuver as one finds suitable. Hmmm……so I gots to blow up her frame if I wanna dominate her, no? Hmm one step closer.” SJF got this earlier, and kfg had a great example of the distinction, but let me see if I can make it more clear with examples. Power is your ability to enact changes to reality. Frame is your concept about how you think reality should be. They tend to track each other but are… Read more »
@Pinerelo “Married man’s game supposedly is harder than LTR and PUA game. I keep reading that all over the place, but find it hard to believe. I am a quiet guy, so PUA game would be challenging for me, as I have been married or LTR all of my adult life.” The learning curve in the very beginning might be sharper for PUA game – that approach anxiety is a bitch. But past that, it’s easier bc of the low stakes in each interaction. If you fuck up, NEXT and you just learned something. In LTR game, a fuckup can… Read more »
Men lose a lot of hand just by being in an LTR in the modern West. You’re just expected to take a subservient role, and if you don’t you get huge pushback. Precisely, the loss of hand is due to her having hand with the Magic Pussy Syndrome (as it it referred to by the authors of Practical Female Psychology book mentioned today) and what I refer to in a marriage as her playing the Hide the Vagina game. I just searched through a hundred of Rollo’s essay’s to find one of his best on “how do you keep the… Read more »
Forge I know that when depression hits me, things I usually think are great I start going over and over in my head until I’m convinced that it’s the worst thing ever and nothing can fix it. I’ve just kinda learned to recognize the pattern and tell myself, ‘alright, I’m just not in a state where I have good perspective right now. I’ll just wait till tomorrow when I’m better and then I’ll see things more clearly.’ This is a form of Gaming yourself. Or a form of self-knowing, for the Game-phobic. It’s important to maintain state, maintain frame, and… Read more »
@Culum – nice FR… and I’m glad the Shame clip made sense… ironic title notwithstanding… On your FR – why oh why oh why won’t you try and pull her? Even if you couldn’t, trying sets up the day 2 much better. Now you need to start over again – yes I know that you always need to start over but it is easier to start over from a more entitled place than a less entitled place! Like you go to pull her and she says she can’t – but at that point all kinds of other truth can slip… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orxrkiPhCQM
Forge the sky – this is the full clip, much better subcoms.
Hey Sentient! Thanks, I haven’t seen the film. Ya, looks like it shows a lot more when the clip starts earlier. That’s good acting. Note for the watchers – see how she’s trying to suppress her (very strong) IOI’s. That’s a great way to screen for genuine interest. Girls who are just trying to use their sex appeal to get something from you will tend to amplify weak IOI’s instead – like grooming and smiling. That’s what I mean when I talk about ‘redlight vs. greenlight’ IOI’s. For example, these girls are just looking for attention: http://media.tumblr.com/09125e251ec9dcc3b582c7618ccd1a33/tumblr_inline_mmcdyxcVAj1qz4rgp.gif That’s bait, not… Read more »
Well written article. It’s important for people to have an open mind and be receptive to new ideas and paradigms. It’s the only way for true progress and growth to occur. If you want to have the successful lifestyle you see others have, then copy what they are doing and surround yourself with like-minded people. Learn through osmosis. You will see how and why women are attracted to men and you can become that man.
@ Will Edward
Yawn. Sweet open. Then pablum.
What else you got and how much are you charging for it?
^ nice call sjf lol
Question – considering what the the red pill (accurately I believe) tells us about the true nature of women, why have sex with them? Why associate with them in any way at all? If you knew a man who had those reprehensible characteristics wouldn’t you avoid him? And if we don’t avoid a woman just as we would avoid such a man, isn’t the red pill perspective incomplete?
@Bellator Denying death and having defense mechanisms against that terror was explained in epic work of non-fiction called “The Denial of Death” by Ernest Becker. In the forward of the book, whoever wrote that explained: “So long as we stay obediently within the defense mechanisms of our personality, what Wilhelm Reich called “character armor” we feel safe and are able to pretend that the world is manageable. But the price we pay is high. We repress our bodies to purchase a soul that time cannot destroy; we sacrifice pleasure to buy immortality; we encapsulate ourselves to avoid death. And life… Read more »
And while I’m at it, I might goad Scribbler into reading that book by also blockquoting this from that introduction to the Denial of Death, which by the way was a contemporary to Kubler-Ross’s On Death and Dying. Great parallels here to red pill and game: “Society provides the second line of defense against our natural impotence by creating a hero system that allows us to believe that we transcend death by participating in something of lasting worth. We achieve ersatz immortality by sacrificing ourselves to conquer an empire, to build a temple, to write a book, to establish a… Read more »
@SJF
http://variety.com/2016/film/reviews/captain-fantastic-film-review-sundance-1201687010/
“Yawn. Sweet open. Then pablum.
What else you got and how much are you charging for it?”
Yup. At least Ivan Throne contributed a bit.
Where’s your FR’s Will?
@ Bellator “Reprehensible characteristics” is a judgment call. There’s nothing reprehensible about women. They simply are what they are. When you understand more about how women work, sex with them is more enjoyable, not less. Instead of avoiding sex, you can pursue it and enjoy it more fully and completely. Getting any kind of negative emotions over reading this stuff is just a sign of grief — letting go of the old ego-investments in equality between men and women. The real nightmares, and every guy here will attest, come from investment in Blue Pill idealism. Not from understanding how women… Read more »
@ scribblerg
Thanks for the advice and support. Taking all that into consideration. Moved past some ego investments, now onto some deeper seated ones I haven’t tackled yet.
Hey Softek,
No offense, but I see you write that last comment and I keep thinking that someone took over your avatar after you committed suicide and decided to make you a new person with more Real power. Like someone did a Catfish persona of you. Just to punk us readers.
You totally made progress and you have the ability to move forward.
Don’t disappoint us now.
Holy shit, though,Softek. I just realized my statement to move forward doesn’t mean anything other than be better at being a man. It does not mean anything else.Not recommending you ditch her. (And wtf? the spinning plates seems beyond your skill level. But it is a Maxim). Not like Camaro’s girl who might do him some harm. You know me. I’m not a fan of ditching the easy pussy, just making it easier. (you know Stoicism. low downside, high upside. Don’t buffer. Low hurdles to in your mind to perceived false high hurdles through mastery). Moving forward was not a… Read more »
@SJF And wtf? the spinning plates seems beyond your skill level. But it is a Maxim Dude, I love you and all. You know this. However, spinning plates is beyond the skill level of me and any dude who shows up here. Seriously. If Softek wants to try spinning them, let him try. I wish I’d tried earlier. If anything, TRP is all about stepping way the fuck out of the comfort zone society establishes for you. Spinning plates is far outside of the serial monogamy society tells men is acceptable or even the marriage you yourself are in and… Read more »
@Chump_No_More – yes, on some level I understand that and even know that BUT I do not seem to realize that. There is a big difference between knowing something and realizing it, I find. I cannot seem to internalize Red Pill ideals as I am constantly surrounded by the complete opposite, the only think I focus on is the sharp contrast around me. @redlight – I did not mean that the Game leads me to isolating myself. I meant that the Red Pill ideals. As I am perhaps trying to achieve Blue Pill ideals via Red pill ideals, I do… Read more »
After spending some time here I have come to realize that shit tests are not for filtering alpha. They are meant to help a woman get her pussy up to it for a man she has already determined is alpha in some way. She want to pussywet. What happens is that when you don’t respond accordingly, she is frustrated and walks away cursing. She already knows you are alpha, but she is hurt that you wont play. If you get something that you realize (I hope you do) to be a shit test, what you have to do is decide… Read more »
I guess you could interchange the flash and flush, depending…
@ Sun Wukong “And wtf? the spinning plates seems beyond your skill level.” You know me well enough to know my speaking and writing are sometimes a bit off of perfect. I did say that last night and as I recall what I was attempting to do was goad him into spinning plates. I could be wrong about my motivations. It did come off wrong as I read it now. And it’s shitty advice on my part. I do understand and appreciate your check to my callousness. And apologize to Softek. It is a joy to hear of Softeks improvement… Read more »
Yeah, I forgot to close the blockquote format after the first indented paragraph. Maybe I shouldn’t post so many comments.
My take on Rollo’s livestream on Niko’s channel yesterday. – Livestream attendance was surprisingly low. Peak number of viewers looked like 67 to me. For a blog with 500k+ views per month, one would have thought there would be more. Let’s see how the views of the recorded session go. Recommendations: Promote this better here and on Twitter ahead of time. – Content: It was an informal discussion, Rollo covered basics of hypergamy and married man game and some other well trodden topics such as idealism. I’m not sure this was as effective as it might be. I think if… Read more »
@Rollo: I didn’t know there was going to be a chat in “real time”. So I agree entirely with Scribblerg, advertise it better, particularly now that you know how it works after trying it the first time.
I’ll try to join the chat next time.
@Scribblerg: I didn’t get much out of this entry, but I think it is probably good to have the 1st entry be entry-level so that beginners that like the different (not written) format also have a entry-level.
That said I’m hoping next month they cover stuff that I can benefit from.
@IAS – I’m was being gentle. Affiliating with Niko is “off brand” for Rollo. Niko is a lightweight in every sense of the word wrt the manosphere and his ideas and popularity etc. (as much as he seems like a very good man – being a good man has little to do with one’s ability to create compelling content or being engaging or creating a strong platform) Rollo should align with another strong brand which adds value to his and is complementary. As a man who does brands professionally, I have to wonder why Rollo would his brand with Niko’s.… Read more »
“MGTOW . . . It’s certainly no different from the Red Pill . . .” Correct. Red Pill is the foundation of MGTOW, just as it as is the foundation of PUA. Red Pill is the theoretical model. MGTOW and PUA are two of the practices under the model. Some people find Nihilism to be oppressive and a cause for depression. Some people find it a release and a cause for joy. They’re still all nihilists despite the difference in their reaction and practice. The model is the same. The distinction is that under the influence of Red Pill knowledge… Read more »
Just wanted to give you guys an update from my post a week or two ago about my wife wanting marriage counseling after a big fight. I told her that I simply didn’t want to go, and that I didn’t think that we would actually get divorced. I basically remained calm throughout our discussion of the matter and maintained a frame of “of course this isn’t going to happen” and most of all, I was able to let go of my butthurt. I haven’t been angry with her at all since then and things haven’t been too bad. No fights… Read more »
@ Sun @ SJF Spinning plates is beyond my current skill level. I also feel like an LTR is beyond my current skill level. But I do get the point of having to push beyond my comfort zone. I’m also in over my head with some clients; the jobs are beyond my current skill level. I can see how it’s sink or swim. I’ve been in limbo, maintaining this relationship with this girl without committing to her, and very tentatively Gaming another girl or two. I haven’t been going hard at all, though, certainly not to the point of getting… Read more »
“She’s asked me more than once if I’m OK with that. Like her hanging out with other guys, or what I think of that. Not sure exactly what the shit test there is. One time I said it kind of bothered me, and she reacted by getting all happy and saying that means I care about her, etc. and she was glad I said that. Not sure what to make of that.” Not exactly a shit test. She’s testing your level of commitment/care to her. A girl wants to be possessed by a high-value man. Right now she’s anxious cause… Read more »
Ok i have an update to my prior predicament. Instead of me having to move out i was able to “convince” her that her moving out was the best chance she had for us to remain together in the long term. My true motive was to just get her out as fast as possible and then implement no contact, as far as she’s concerned this is her best chance at keeping our marriage. I know this is manipulation but honestly i feel that the rules of engagement do not apply here as the history of abuse and her unstable natures… Read more »
@Dutchman I don’t know your situation, but I feel for you. For a man, name calling (out of anger) cannot improve the outcome. When I am in a solid frame and my wife gets over-emotional, angry with me or a kid, I sometimes tell her to keep quiet until she is ready to act like an adult (or something similar), and that tends to work well (though her initial reaction isn’t always positive). The arguments, mostly in the past now thankfully, that led to more problems for me down the road were the ones in which I also let my… Read more »
@Camarowoes Don’t even feel guilty or even feel the need to justify your actions rsp to your deception in this situation. Protect yourself first and then choose to support those who deserve your energy. Good move!
@camarowoes: sweet play. checkmate doesnt equal manipulation; in this case it was survival. When you maintain no contact it will be over. If.you just keep reading here it will sink in even more over time. I know I’m subject to criticism from others. I step oitside myself.and see.it.from others perspective. Still doesnt stop me from following the number one rule of biology: survival. I refuse to criticize myself in a way that will demoralize myself. This from a guyy who has suffered through an abusive childhood and has had a large share of adult suffering as well. I come.here and… Read more »
@Camaro: I know this is manipulation but . . .”
. . . you appear to be very good at it. Good man.
Now batten down the hatches and take care of yourself.
@Softek Spinning plates is beyond my current skill level. I also feel like an LTR is beyond my current skill level. With the dynamics at play between plate spinning and LTR, work on spinning plates first. Don’t bother with an LTR till you’ve got that down. Without the ability to spin plates, you’ll get into an LTR with a scarcity mentality and wind up… well, exactly where you are right now, ya know? They’re both difficult, but having a decent LTR requires a bunch of time spinning plates both for purposes of searching through women and building the mentality required… Read more »
@Camaro,
Congrats! Good to know you’re making progress.
Now change all the locks to YOUR house.
@Sentient “On your FR – why oh why oh why won’t you try and pull her” he still has ‘good girl/bad girl’ = NAWALT lenses on…lol…that’s why he could escalate fast on those ‘sugar babys’…bc they were bad girls…lol… and the non-nesting format really isn’t THAT bad…lol…search my name on this post and i explained to Culum why i’m here…and then there was an admin crisis…lol…and trying to comment ‘across pages’ is tricky…(just had that happen…lol) i’m actually surprized at what kind of epiphany level insights i’m having on this shit…lol…real ground breaking stuff…and not just PUA either = real… Read more »
@Dutchman January 24th, 2016 at 9:17 am Good advice by Having a bad day. I don’t quite understand it (might be due to the sentence and paragraph structure) but it sounds legit and practical. Some larger issues. I sense you would rather keep the marriage than blow it up and start again. Once again, I think the benefit the the children is a big one. I still subscribe to red pill and married man game here, but some benefit can be gained by the purple pill, when there are currently some critical defects in the marriage. I would once again… Read more »
Damn. I spelled ones wrong.
kfg: “@Camaro: I know this is manipulation but . . .”
. . . you appear to be very good at it. Good man
Jedi master level.
@HABD “try this…the next time she does something even close to something you like…compliment her for that thing…now, here’s the weird part…she’ll probably try to shit on it (the compliment)… how she does this/what she says is part of her Rolodex (and it might pay for you to start keeping a log of these…and i’m not kidding…lol)… there are a bunch of reasons she’ll try, just be ready for it…the best way to approach it is to think like it’s a frame battle (bc that’s kind of what it is…lol). she’s going to be trying to get back to HER… Read more »
@ Dutchman You don’t want to AMOG other dudes. You want to be guy friends with high quality men and be able to suck up to and be friends with douche-bag AMOGs. Otherwise your will be just a dick and get others to hate you–not what you want. Did you even read this?: http://therationalmale.com/2015/02/02/the-art-of-amog/ “Women love a man who Just Gets It, and the best, playful way of expressing that is with Amused Mastery; but it’s even more sexy when that Mastery extends to men who she perceives are your intersexual rivals. This then, by association, compliments her ego for… Read more »
(note – i debated on posting this bc i generally don’t engage ‘trolly’ types (that’s why it’s late) but i spent the time getting my thoughts sorted and thought somebody else might get some benefit out of it…) @Not Born This Morning Welcome!… you know, i just started commenting here a little while ago, so i don’t know how long you’ve been here, but i just wanted to welcome you anyway…you seem to be having a bad day…and i know how that is…lol “Here is my advice…” 1. Don’t get fat. 2. If you are at all fat, get unfat.… Read more »
@Dutchman “I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often.” why do you say that?…seriously… do you do it bc you want to make her feel good or try to ‘manipulate’ her or bc she might get mad if you don’t (ie suck up = her frame)… OR bc YOU actually appreciate what she did? compliment her bc of that last reason as much as you want…as long as it’s YOUR frame, it’s fine…and bc of the social dynamic in play, she’ll do what she has to to get you to stop…lol…(i know, it doesn’t make sense…lol…) it’s… Read more »
@having a bad day Hey, I think you said you were married… Just wanted to bounce some things off of ya. Do you have an open relationship type of thing or monogamous? Reason I say that is because you know objectively marriage is great, but I have that “I’m going to break your heart.” feeling. The catch is that I’ve got young kids. Obviously I’m going to wait till they’re older, but I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day. I’m going to try and go the pLTR or open route first.… Read more »
@SJF @dutchman “Athols blog is a purple pill mess. And it will mess with your head–it is too positive. A lot of the good stuff and articles were written a long time ago before he was trying to appeal to women and get more subscribers.” Yup… he went downhill after he started paid coaching and female moderation of the forum. I’d avoid the Mindful Attraction Plan and only read the 2011 Primer. Still a great pithy intro to female attraction, shit tests and evo psych/bio. Just get a separate account. The forum had some great posters… fredless, davebowman, picard, sf64,… Read more »
@andy “I know myself well enough to know that I really will break her heart some day” You will only break her heart if you are low value or the women you choose are lower value than her. Otherwise she might not be happy with your choices, but if she still has the title – and the respect – as a high value man’s wife, inside she will be happy despite herself… what you have to do is not rub her face in it, and not set up situations where female social pressure requires her to do something to preserve… Read more »
@ Sentient “I’d avoid the Mindful Attraction Plan and only read the 2011 Primer.” Care to elaborate on why? MAP is a stripped down version of the Primer without the geeky Star Trek shit. And @All and @married guys that abdicated frame because no-told them this shit: Keep in mind that early Athol Kay stuff was a distillation of red pill awareness and married man game–distilled from exhaustive research (probably from over a decade and thousands of articles) from various sources so he could get in his wife’s pants (and it worked fine to that end). So the Primer and… Read more »
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACK7uu07L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
@SJF well the cover kind of covers it IMO, but your comment that it is a stripped down version of the Primer does as well… why get a stripped down purple version? And yes his early stuff was distilled – from Rollo, CH, Vox etc… LOL
Re: Mindful Action Plan I had already read Rollo’s books and spent a hundred plus hours reading his (50% of my reading then, 75% now) and other Red Pill author’s blog posts before getting the MAP book. I found some of the basic framework and guidelines very useful, but scant novel useful information beyond what a cursory read provides. I only read it once and here is the main points that still stick out: 1. The overall MAP can be used as a plan to either obtain her submission or prepare yourself to live a better life without her. This… Read more »
Re: MMSL
http://marriedmansexlife.com/subscriptions-and-forum-contact/
No thanks.
@ Rollo Re: Kay Athol’s mission vs. yours
Agreed. As someone above already said, it is available free/cheap via Kindle Unlimited. Re $20/ month (Cough!) I love the free market.
And this highlights what a contribution you are making to Mankind!
“why get a stripped down purple version?” Because it strips out the geek. I actually read it for free (Kindle Unlimited) and I figure it saved me about $500K and a lot of time (an old man’s most valuable asset) and grief. I actually read it, did you? Dutch needs all the help he can get. (Heh, it’s for the children, you know). Or did you just judge the book by its cover? Athol Kay is intellectually incapable of coming up with a decent title to his books, a true Geek at it (try parading around the house with a… Read more »
@KFG – I have no time for this today, and can’t address the other comments, but want to reply to your comments about MGTOW in response to mine. We seem to be talking past each other, so please tell me what you disagree with. MGTOW without socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing one’s sex drive is meaningless and no distinction from Red Pill ideas. MGTOW starts with socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing sex. Some have taken it further, claiming that detaching from society in other ways, adopting “alt right” race realism, anarchic ideas and living an off-grid subsistence is part of… Read more »
I agree and cosign that entirely GW. Excellent four points. I read it several years ago when I didn’t have “hand” and did have One-Itis for my high quality wife (this all has changed for the better). And then I moved on from that simple framework as it was presented. And it took a good 18 months to get to a point where I had actualized my own mission from a script that I adapted from MAP. It worked. It is by no means easy and by no means quick. The best time start these things is a long time… Read more »
@HABD ” “I’ve actually had a bad habit of complimenting her too often.” why do you say that?…seriously…” When I compliment her, it usually feels like supplication. “do you do it bc you want to make her feel good or try to ‘manipulate’ her or bc she might get mad if you don’t (ie suck up = her frame)… OR bc YOU actually appreciate what she did? compliment her bc of that last reason as much as you want…as long as it’s YOUR frame, it’s fine…and bc of the social dynamic in play, she’ll do what she has to to… Read more »
The unwillingness of MGTOW to see the benefits of game are just so stunning. Check out this video from a MGTOW claiming that the responses of women to his questions PROVE that you should go MGTOW. No, they prove that women respond to game…
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiBMzdU9i2I&w=560&h=315%5D
http://marriedmansexlife.com/the-forum-leadership/
No thanks.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/the-coaching-team/
No thanks.
I know the score on Athol, Rollo.
Just trying to help another commenter out. And it is clear I’m not endorsing anything other than MAP for Dutch. I think it will help him in the way GW summarizes.
@SJF
https://archive.org/details/b20442580
Wonder what your take is?
@SJF, the only value Athol has ever really had was the Primer, however he compromises and disqualifies whatever value it had with his ‘Mindful’ plans and watered down Purple Pill marketeering he’s had to do from financial necessity.
His is the template for guys like Mark Manson, Evan Mark Katz, and soon AVfM. I can’t in good conscience endorse anything from Kay anymore. For any good the Primer did it only serves to plug men back into the Matrix, with their wives’ approval, and at a cost of $149 per hour.
Fuck him.
Dutchman on compliments I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does. Need to separate out those motives, IMO. Doing things for women, even in LTR / married life, “to make her feel good” is poor frame. It tends to lead to “reciprocity thinking”, i.e. “I did this and made her feel good, so now…” which essentially is negotiating desire. It doesn’t work. Oh, and if she comes to expect compliments for just about anything she does, that’s only digging the hole deeper. Compliment her when she deserves it.… Read more »
Re: MMSL
All of the stuff I’ve been reading that actually makes sense has been from about 2012 or before.
@Anon Reader
“Need to separate out those motives, IMO. Doing things for women, even in LTR / married life, “to make her feel good” is poor frame. It tends to lead to “reciprocity thinking”, i.e. “I did this and made her feel good, so now…” which essentially is negotiating desire. It doesn’t work. ”
Agreed and working on it.
@Scribbler: “MGTOW starts with socially eschewing women and de-emphasizing sex.” I agree. I do not agree that it necessarily means not going through a checkout line because the cashier is a woman. “My point is that if you don’t socially eschew women and de-emphasize sex, you are just Red Pill.” I thought I was pretty clear here. Red Pill is the model. Accepting the model is what makes you Red Pill. How you use the model in your life is a different issue. There are a number of approaches to life that are Red Pill, even though they may be… Read more »
Since I agree with both you and Scribbler on the MGTOW topic, I think you both agree (or mostly) on it as well.
Boolean (not digital since a digital scalar signal is discrete, but not necessarily boolean) is what you meant to say. “It is a gradient, not boolean.”
@Dutchman: “I do it because I want to make her feel good and because I do appreciate the stuff she does. ”
Which do you think she would appreciate more, a small diamond, or a hopper full of grass clippings?
@kfg
The diamond.
@Andy +1 on Sentient’s advice…(although i don’t really know enough about the changes at MMSL to agree/disagree, but he’s generally solid on the other stuff, and it matches Rollo’s opinion, so there you go…lol) my spectrum of goodness = [hard-ass red pill….>>>….clueless blue pill] = the more actual red pill you can get into your diet the better off you will be (regardless of comfort zone issues)…’purple pill’ is somewhere on that spectrum…and on the ‘right’ side of the blue pill…(pun intended…lol) ————- “@having a bad day Hey, I think you said you were married… Just wanted to bounce some… Read more »
Sentient! Welcome to TRM! And yes, the Shame video clip was most useful..reminded to look for the lip biting as well (Sentient was the guy who initially showed me that clip). I didn’t try to pull her because the logistics didn’t work – I had to go meet someone else and she had a long trip to get back home. I was also conscious of not overdoing the turning her on thing and trigger ASD for next time. I COULD have tried to pull her to the bar toilet for a BJ, but she wasn’t turned on enough for that… Read more »
@GW: Our disagreement is based on his previous definition of MGTOW, which is boolean.
The Levels of MGTOW model is a digital scalar.
Sentient, Rollo and others – I am interested in why you think Athol/MMSL has gone downhill. I’m not married or anything but I did read the original MMSL Primer 2011 for fun (I think Sentient mentioned it on CH) and it was a light easy read and seemed to be a good prescriptive primer on taking action in a marriage to improve it in a red pill context, but without too much underlying theory/reasons to confuse people. I’ve also had a quick read through of the blog just now and I’m a bit confused – there seems to be talk… Read more »
@Culum, Athol jumped the shark when he and his wife were essentially doxxed and both lost (or quit?) their jobs to do MMSL as a full time job. In doing so they found that the only way to be profitable was to enlist women’s approval in their husbands’ transformation process. Thus, you get all these paid tiers of forum participation, almost exclusively female moderated forums, the term ‘Mindful’ is coined to placate women’s worries that their husbands might find more control in their marriages than they’re comfortable with, etc. Any value MMSL had in the past is at best a… Read more »
“technically, it’s YOU expecting relational equity in your marriage to inhere to your benefit ” Good point. “girls don’t like to be ‘downgraded’…but the more you increase your value, the easier it will be to get what you want…” “but if she still has the title – and the respect – as a high value man’s wife, inside she will be happy despite herself…” I get this part. I actually think I’m as good as she’s going to get as it is. Provider or Sex… lol. But I tend to have a high opinion of myself. I actually joked about… Read more »
@Rollo “Athol jumped the shark ” MAP went from Male Action Plan to Marriage Action Plan to Mindful Attraction Plan… The Mindful Attraction Plan book (yes I read it SJW 😉 ) was a seismic shift to the purple… this book was originally supposed to be an update of the Primer for 2013 but as I recall AK was also in discussions with a partner to bring MMSL very mainstream in a series of paid live forums so he scrapped all the Primer level truth and wrapped things in love guru ribbons and bows, both in an appeal to more… Read more »
MMSL has become another “Build – A – Beta” site. Wouldn’t surprise me if $usan Wal$h now approves. That’s how bad it’s gotten. In time it will decay to a hot tub full of estrogen with a few Gamma’s floating around in it, but I’m sure it will continue to bank some coin. Nobody ever went broke stroking women’s egos and telling men what to do. Frankly, Athol had his weaknesses even years ago. I remember him stating that men should avoid any site or writer that used the term “Marriage 2.0”, for example. That was a red flag, because… Read more »
@culum “increasing the female alpha” (which seems to be a euphemism for women trying to lose weight/get fit/make more of a sexual effort” I was an original forum member and stayed through 2014. What you find on the forum, and on sites like TRM and CH, is that the women that come here (not trolls) are generally high sex drive women who are stuck with formerly alpha but now low T men… On MMSL in almost every case the woman’s husband would be diagnosed low T. So all her being prettier and being sexier and kinkier did nothing to increase… Read more »
Sentient Then he started to ban a lot of forum commenters (raises hand)… Huh. You, too? Is the purge now complete? If you read the older forum posts you will see a bunch of banned commenters, who are worth reading. Wonder how long that will last, now that moderation is all female. Any really useful comments should probably be copied out to somewhere else… One of the interesting things about women who intersect with the androsphere is how often they wind up deleting things. Giggles became notorious for ripping out entire comment strings. Various “red pill” women have gone through… Read more »
@Anonymous Reader
“Huh. You, too? Is the purge now complete?”
Hehehe… I would get into more and more scrapes with Serenity and the other ladies there when I would tell guys to push it, use dread, etc. and the ladies would freak out and hamster on with pure projection…
After a couple of guys posted they were going to PM me that they wanted me to coach them… well then I was banned to my surprise…