While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.
This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.
When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.
From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.
The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.
Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.
When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.
While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.
Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.
For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.
Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.
It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.
You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.
I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.
True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.
And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.
The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.
Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.
How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.
What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.
Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.
All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?
There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.
The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:
The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?
The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.
And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.
This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.
My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.
The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.
The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.
Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).
Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.
And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.
Been there for about a year. Then somehow, after a lot of reading and analyzing stuff from my previous years, it finally hit me. Hypergamy is the best thing that can happen to women from their point of view (guess I’m in the Accepting phase of this shit). 10.000 years before, now, and 10.000 years from now on. It’s what they want, what they desire, what fulfills them on the deepest existential level. It’s the equivalent of us desiring unrestrained, unlimited sex with many HB10 way into old age. From their point of view our wish is despicable, from our… Read more »
@stuttie We should be entering the ridicule/shaming phase from the MSM in the next few years. Brace. It comes after the ‘ignore’ phase and before the ‘violent opposition’ phase. Which is followed by the ‘co-opt’ phase, if the movement survives the culling. Each has its difficulties In the ignore phase, the difficulty is getting the word out. Ridicule/shaming – doubt and radicalization Violent opposition – keeping your identity, or self, safe Co-opt – not getting co-opted and absorbed into the broader culture. And in all stages, we are helped by passion for truth and compassion – however expressed – for… Read more »
” She makes little comments about how she’s never going to let me go, she casually talks about her obsession with knives and how that is one aspect she enjoys about the medical field. She’s only 5’4 and 105 lbs yet has the uncanny ability to move silently throughout the house. I was in the downstairs bathroom one night about 11pm taking a crap and when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she… Read more »
@Camaro:
3. . . 2. . . 1 . . . Go!
Re BPD – As a good personal friend of SJF in real life, in fact, the “most interesting” guy he generously referred to me as, please bear with me as I share the longest comment I’ve made in the manosphere, a universe where I’ve lurked since 2007 and only infrequently commented short and occasionally pithy remarks. If it causes one guy out there somewhere to avoid getting involved with one of these crazy bitches, it will be worth the hours I spent composing it (INTJ’s have a hard time writing fast). Before steering into the cosmic mindfuck that has been… Read more »
@Dragonfly Your husband does rather demonstrate that he hasn’t been in a dangerously toxic relationship before with his reply. That’s not a bad thing; I mean, I would give people shit advice about how to deal with, say, a hostage circumstance because I’ve never been in one or had to deal with one. And I hope I will always give shit advice about that lol. But I bet there’s lots of counterintuitive stuff that can help you survive a circumstance like that that isn’t obvious if you haven’t lived through it. I know you’re just trying to help by posting… Read more »
My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity. Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.
It’s just like with a woman who stays with an abusive man – there’s something wrong with her to keep staying. She has incredibly low self-esteem and values whatever “significance” she thinks he brings to the relationship. A man who stays with a bpd girl doesn’t understand his own value.
@Dragonfly:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/22/a-ship-in-a-harbor/
You simply don’t know what you’re talking about and your advice to your brother is only perpetuating his downward spiral. There is much more to his circumstance than valuing sex over his sanity and your simplism is only lacking him into it.
@Niko – Right, so you weren’t actually talking about “in-group preference”, you were talking about fraternity and male bonding. Try learning more about the words you use.
@Niko – Clicked post when I didn’t mean to. This statement is an absolute hash of nonsense and gets right at your confusion: “Whereas I agree with your premise that men should not believe that they deserve better and just wait for it to fall from the sky; I believe a man of today should believe that he is deserving and fight to get it for himself.” First off, stick with what I’m saying if you are going to counter my comments. I never said that men shouldn’t wait for “it to fall from the sky”. You have mangled my… Read more »
I don’t have much experience with bpd chicks, so this is a learning moment ( one of many here ) for me. You guys are phenomenal. @Dragonfly A man that’s with a bpd chick is not the same as a woman in an abusive relationship. There are different mechanics at work for men. the expectations for men are different in the relationship because men are not expected to flee at the first ( or tenth ) sign of trouble. We are problem solvers, sometimes to our own detriment. And then there’s love. We love differently. I’ve witnessed women turn off… Read more »
“My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity.” I agree, of course. But I can understand how a man might become embroiled by the bait and switch tactics of an unstable BPD type. Especially over a length of time when there is a real emotional investment (that would be when she’d take a turn for the worst, I’d assume). Mike is pretty smart about that stuff too, but he stayed with his ex girlfriend for three years and she was pretty toxic and crazy. Eventually… Read more »
Then of course there was the subsequent stalking….
@Scribblerg – since you want it word for word. “What you struggle to describe about how feminism is inculcated in schools and society is much better and more completely described via Rollo’s concept of the “Feminine Inmperative”.” Yes, fair. I never disagreed with that concept – although imperative* . Who says because I will not cite every single example I do not understand how feminism has affected the school system, social norms etc? Of course I do… It is irrelevant to the point. “Your comment on male ingroup preferences flies in the face of the known science. In fact men… Read more »
*agree with this point. There is a distinct need for an edit button here.
“Your anger and defensiveness is funny though Rollo.”
Less so when you consider who he’s defending.
Try not to be petty. You’re capable.
….Petty Crocker.
@Niko – Note I said that you haven’t internalized what Rollo has written, which makes me wonder if you’ve read it. As for you offering some worthy counterpoint to his, lol. Perhaps you are one of those YouTubers who views negative comments and criticism as trolling and not substantive regardless. Let me be clear – the vid you posted is not informative, well conceived or compelling. Your commentary demonstrates PurplePillishness nonstop, and doesn’t even do so in an entertaining or informative way. I actually went back and watched more of your stuff after Rollo highlighted you, hoping that I had… Read more »
@Niko
I see you’ve meet our ferocious ankle biting Chihuahua, scribblerg. You might have to shake him off your leg every once in a while.
@Softek “Internals. The real bull work I have is facing myself and overcoming this pussy response to everything — letting everyone walk all over me. I’m dealing with a situation at the same time as all this mess….a client that doesn’t want to pay me for my work, and also expects me to take it back and redo the job for nothing. Everyone I’ve asked, including my friend who’s been in the business for 50 years, said he’s a lunatic and is being completely unreasonable and/or trying to take me for a ride. My work came out beautifully. That shouldn’t… Read more »
@Dragonfly: “My husband doesn’t need to have “sexual experience” with a bpd girl to understand that staying means you value sex over your sanity.”
Are you suggesting that North Korean brainwashers had “sexual experience” with their POW victims, and that the victims desired it?
Or, alternatively, is it possible that due to a lack of relevant experience you have entirely missed the point?
@kfg, Dragonfly is only defending the wisdom of her husband here because she’s invested in the choice she made to pair with. While that’s admirable, her blind faith in his simplistic judgement does her brother no favors in dealing with his BPD predicament.
Mr. Dragonfly value signals, she amplifies that signal to reaffirm her decision to marry him, and the hamster runs from there.
@All – And now you’ve witnessed Andy’s inability to articulate an actual argument. Just for the record, Andy’s admitted on these pages that he’s pathologically narcissistic and anti-social and that he’s working on it. I’m not, however, I do deal rhetorical, polemical deathblows to preening pseudo-intellectuality.
@Andy, I don’t “anklebite” – I punch directly in the face as I did here. It’s you who’s the master of cheapshots, but I get it, you are working on that and I wish you luck with it.
No one is sure if the rapey scene in High Plains drifter comes from Ernest Tidyman (Shaft, Oscar for French Connection screenplay), or Dean Riesner (Dirty Harry, famous script doctor). I suspect Tidyman since the writer/reporter loved his vices: women, drinking, gambling, stealing.
“If you wanted to get acquainted why didn’t you just say so?” See any shit tests here?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xK-oyqDBEJ8
It’s only funny to you because you haven’t personally experienced the damage a BPD is capable of. I have.
If I’m angry or defensive it’s only because I want to spare men like Camaro, Softek and your brother the same experience you and hubby so casually dismiss.
After your brother commits suicide then we can talk about how it was all about you thinking it’s all about prioritizing sex over self-esteem. It’ll make for some interesting conversation after you deliver his eulogy.
and the scene to completion:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZD0JRoKSq4
@Niko – No, I don’t want to even engage you anymore, it’s not worth it. Get back to your “busy life”, please. As I am.
@Softek Sorry to see you in this state, man. It really can look like there’s no hope sometimes, but if you keep on you eventually end up somewhere. Your self-evaluation is very good. I would expect that from you, you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about your life and brain and shit. Yup, the central issue isn’t really your circumstances, it’s your internal self-concept. And also, yes, you materially are much farther along now than you were even a few months ago. That’s important to remember. It seems like involvement with a cluster-b is just a rite of passage… Read more »
Forge said: “So I pushed back against SJF’s characterization of how a borderline girl can be good for a man earlier, but in your circumstance I’d actually try to frame it like that and actualize it like that.” “I mean, I’m being silly here but you see the trick. You’re making the self-doubt an external force that doesn’t reflect ‘you’ rather than actually feeling like you really are a piece of shit. That voice doesn’t tell the truth, it’s not real, its a demon in your head and it’s just part of who you are to have to ignore it/beat… Read more »
@ Rollo Tomassi
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about BPD women, especially the erroneous way other men respond or advise them. I knew (know?) men like this and never knew what to say when I witnessed this behavior. If a man hasn’t taken the Red Pill he’s not going to understand why or how another man can be manipulated by a BPD woman beyond the sex.
I doubt they’ll do it, but if I get the chance I’ll refer them to that post and hope it’s not all lost for them.
@Dragonfly Rollo said:”There is much more to his circumstance than valuing sex over his sanity and your simplism is only lacking him into it.” “If I’m angry or defensive it’s only because I want to spare men like Camaro, Softek and your brother the same experience you and hubby so casually dismiss.” The problem with the statement that your husband made in the current narrative is that it was trite. Very trite. Forge was right. You can do better. (But that is not an invitation to blather on. You are in a forum and at a figurative dinner table discussing… Read more »
Lose the frame, lose the game !!
When i read the BPD experiences of you all, i must be happy not to have met such a creature (yet).
The rape scene of Clint Eastwood was very nice. That’s the only way to treat such a BPD woman…and then leave her !!
But like Yareally said it before…the risks nowadays are way too hight. Thus, keeping distance is the only way in my opinion
Rollo, I agree that getting snared into a relationship with a BPD woman isn’t necessarily about self esteem or sex (although, from what I’ve seen secondhand I would think she would have to bring something pretty special to the table for a guy to put up with that). There are about as many guys with BPD girlfriend/ex wife/wife stories in the fighter pilot community as there are heavy drinkers. They definitely didn’t lack for either self esteem or sex (at least until they got entangled, THEN they had depression and self esteem issues). That said, I don’t why any version… Read more »
@All What scribblerg wrote January 22nd, 2016 at 8:31 am bears elaborating on. Recently an incident came up in a group of my IRL guy friends where one of the guys had an insolent moment and told one of the more prominent acquaintances to fuck off. He reasons that a guy has to stand up for himself and defend himself (even if physically like in a bar fight) because that is what being a real man. In reality, he is burning bridges and it has had a pin-ball effect on some tremendously high value friendships in the quality group. He’s… Read more »
@Forge “Less so when you consider who he’s defending. Try not to be petty. You’re capable.” Considering the way some of the commenters humiliate and degrade each other’s choices and experiences here all the time, and Rollo doesn’t bat an eyelash, my husband’s words are light in comparison. Last year when I had barely given birth to our second son, Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways – attacking everything about me, calling my life shit, calling me all sorts of names, all while I was trying to merely comment… Read more »
Oh I’m sorry pumpkin did I not mention the heat in the kitchen? I’ve also backed you up on many occasions, particularly when you first arrived here. But what you deliberately ignore is the context of both my agreeing with you in one instance and disagreeing with you in another – and that primarily out of concern for your brother. Your cow-eyed evangelical simplisms and casual dismissals of very real, potentially life damaging issues for men only highlight your lack of understanding. Your first impulse to post here in God knows how long was to amplify your husband’s value signaling… Read more »
@ Liz
“That said, I don’t why any version of “run away from that! She’s a trainwreck!” would be actively harmful.”
No one at all wouldn’t say, and indeed no one didn’t say run away from that. It is how it is said. The subcomms are are there and they are very clear to see. Salt in wounds. Dragonfly’s comment from her husband was very, very insensitive (and terribly second hand). And her explanations for it were nonsensical.
Hence, the push-back.
Woman as victim. Men shamed for doing nothing.
Maybe we could decorate this site in pink and make it safe for everyone.
Or stay out of the locker room if you can’t handle the talk.
@Dragonfly January 22nd, 2016 at 10:12 am
You entered a masculine space in which TRM has a certain Frame. It is this blogs frame. And you proceeded to keep your own Frame in your comments. Frame is not power. And you did not bring the group into your Frame. It happens.
“when I finished and opened the door there she was standing in the living room, all lights off, staring in the direction of the bathroom door. I could see the whites of her eyes, she wasn’t making a sound it was like she was frozen. Scared the hell out of me. After asking her what she was doing she replied, “were you talking to a girl in there? Because if you were I was going to go upstairs and…” she stopped herself there.”
Wow…..wow!
Niko In group preference can be defined as preference within a group. Perhaps I should have defined the group. There is no such thing as the male collective if you prefer to put it as follows. Whether you want to call that fraternity or gangs which was I believe the reference I used in my video (as per the use from Jack Donovan’s book) it is irrelevant to the point. Men within those groups will show in group preference for that particular group. There’s your problem, in your definition of “ingroup preference”. What you are describing is “SUBgroup preference”. It’s… Read more »
@Dragonfly You and your husband don’t know shit about what we’re talking about. Don’t comment on the subject of dealing with a Cluster-B female ever again. I’ve experienced it personally. I’ve spoken with multiple psychological professionals about the subject. For the record, BPD is something professionals usually won’t touch due to the level of manipulation they will drag you through. It’s like when a chemist tells you there’s chemicals they won’t touch… that’s shit you, as the 100% completely and totally uneducated layman need to just keep your mouth shut about and listen. It is a situation you clearly lack… Read more »
@Rollo: “Dragonfly is only defending the wisdom of her husband here because she’s invested in the choice she made to pair with.”
She is relating it because she’s also doing her own virtue signalling here.
@sun Wukong ” For the record, BPD is something professionals usually won’t touch due to the level of manipulation they will drag you through.” Agree. Even if the patient hits on 20 out of 21 markers for BPD, many professionals are reluctant to make that diagnosis. Perhaps owing to the dire track record of treatment for this disorder. Speaking of the term “disorder”, Dr. Tara Palmatier (AVFM’s resident expert) has remarked that she doesn’t like the term “personality disorders”, preferring “character disorders”, as she believes those with PD’s truly have defective character. She has further opined that BPD, in particular,… Read more »
“….Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways…”
ROFLMAO.
Yeah, Glenn can be like that sometimes.
Too bad they don’t make band-aids for feelings.
@Dragonfly, educate yourself:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/comment-page-2/#comment-72635
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/comment-page-2/#comment-134816
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/comment-page-2/#comment-134844
So would you give Hugh the same advice? “Just think with your big head”?
@ SJF
” A mature man can have a dust-up. But not be afraid to shake hands and have a beer with his recent adversary in a group. And move on to continue the cohesiveness and high upside that that group can accomplish.”
This absolutely.
One of the hallmarks of a true friend is that he will be one of the first ones to pull your coattails and/or tell you when you’re full of shit. Friends like that, ones you can ” dust up ” with and remain close as ever, that’s a treasure.
Rollo,
I honestly do not believe women are able to grasp the concept of Life and Death circumstances when it comes to men. It will usually be distilled down to some level of triteness.
Can we really expect a female to objectively look at something she has no true concept of? And it doesn’t help that she chooses to parrot her hubby’s insensitivity and lack of knowledge on the subject.
Par for the course.
What we discuss here is always proven and amplified when women ” try ” to help.
Dr. T and Paul Elam did several video hangouts about their book “Say Goodbye to Crazy” that I found very helpful. I haven’t read the book, but I imagine it is similar to the conversations. Whatever you do in dealing with these creatures, keep people who love and understand you close, show no mercy, and do not despair. Be prepared to be labelled a psychopathic abuser because you do not yield to manipulation. Stay strong! The only way you win with these people is to not have them in your life, not have them know where you live, and not… Read more »
@Blaximus
ScribblerG is a friend of mine and he’s not full of shit.
And I think Rollo would have his back in a second as it relates to comments on The Rational Male.
Scribbler has show the four tactical virtues of the masculine here many times. Strength, courage, mastery and honor among men (no matter what anyone thinks on the last one).
Us 52-54 year-olds have a wise perspective on why that is. We’ve been through some trying and experience-building times. And we perhaps don’t suffer fools gladly.
@SJF To be clear, I love me some scribblerG. You know, honestly? I didn’t think I’d live this long – half a century plus. Men in my family, some had a tendency to burn out quick. But I definitely cosign the ” trying and experience-building times “. There was a time in my life when I found myself on the Garden State Parkway down by Seaside Heights. I was driving my baby blue 1976 Caddy coupe deville at a nice 120+ mph clip, when ” problems ” I was having in life made me aim the car at a toll… Read more »
@Sun Wukong Imagine if every single time you saw a chance to control someone, even if it meant psychologically destroying them, you were cool with it so long as you got what you wanted. That’s what these women are. Sex is just one tool in the massive arsenal they utilize. Gross over simplifications like “Stop thinking with your dick.” demonstrate a complete and total misunderstanding of the nature of the beast. Dragonfly is demonstrating the female default to pretend as if the female tool of psychological manipulation does not exist. She’s using quotes from her husband to signal that it’s… Read more »
@Farmlegend
After all is said and done (which won’t happen, and us masculine types don’t seek a completion in life) the glass may be less full but you still have your support groups to go to. After your short stint with MGTOW, I hear there are some decent women that show up to the meetings.
@kfg ya, i mean…i ought to know, i dealt with an insane bpd hot chick not long after getting a little success in the game. just crazy shit hot-cold. i didn’t even realize it was bpd drama until after everything had flamed out and i managed to spent a little bit of time away from her and recover my sanity. pretty sure i wrote about it a bit at the time — and it’s pathetic! i was a mess….punching walls and shit during fights….leave work middle of the day to go have sex even tho we had just fucked in… Read more »
I see what the feminine is doing here. Trying to turn a complete dyad into an incomplete (or no) dyad. BPD and men as victims is a complete and utter dyad that begs for “completion”. Yes, men are victims here. Women use dyadic completion when claiming that men are immoral in certain attitudes,acts and sexual strategies because there has to be a victim. (Via the FI and social conventions they use moral condemnation of the masculine to imply victims in red pill and game.) They also try to imply as totally incomplete the diad when men are harmed by women.… Read more »
lol… yet more follow-up from the uber chick. http://miami.cbslocal.com/2016/01/21/miami-doctor-placed-on-leave-suspended-from-uber-after-attacking-driver/ Her neighbor Ruby Ferro told CBS4’s Natalia Zea the behavior she saw in the video is nothing like the young lady she has known since she was a child. “I just got surprised because they’re a beautiful family,” said Ferro. “Anjali and her sister, they’re good girls. They’re quiet people. They never have a problem.” Ferro is urging those who are basing their opinions of her from the one video to have a heart. “You could be a beautiful person but one day you have a problem, the job or the… Read more »
@Blax
“To be clear, I love me some ScribblerG.”
I didn’t mean to imply you, which I inadvertently did. I meant to refer to some certain others.
“But that doesn’t mean you’re a bad person”
But it does mean someone is trying to un-complete the dyad. Trash the hell out of an Uber driver and you are a bad person is a complete dyad.
And in the sidebar of the Uber Girl story:
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2016/01/21/mother-given-25-years-in-prison-after-baby-found-buried-in-backyard/
She was convicted of aggravated manslaughter because . . . she cut a deal to give state’s evidence of second degree murder against the father.
I think that Dragonflys comment shows in this instance she is the one letting her dick do her thinking for her,and then she spouts it off.Don’t realy know her but maybe she is better off letting his little head think for her big one and then just be quiet about it.Just sayin.
YaReally and gang – Quick FR – first night last night from January Going Out Week. Had a long day – date with an online girl (29, HB7-7.5, petite redhead). Said she wanted an “alpha male in and out of the bedroom” in her profile. Won’t bother with details except to say I had to go out later so only planned it as a quick drink, not to take her home. I wanted to focus mainly on lasering, voice tonality and sexualizing and leading the interaction (as opposed to trying for the kiss etc) and it worked really well. She… Read more »
@ Culum, If that is a “quick” FR, then a long one would be a men’s novel. You wrote it pretty well. My proof is that even though I am having sex almost every day with my pretty good looking wife, I am getting cabin fever just reading it. 🙂 Separately, Re: BPD women, I have either been lucky, or somehow wired with defensive alarms. I dated a hot blonde who was a high paid sales rep at a high tech firm about 18 years ago (I was about 30) and after letting me feel her up on an all… Read more »
@Culum Good FR. By my standards, FANTASTIC date. I have to step up my game a lot before I can really dissect/critique that sort of thing. Sounds like the bang was basically in the bag, barring logistics. Your descriptions brought to mind two memories/corroborations. First, I remember kinda stroking a girl I was seeing a bit, then I pulled her in for a hug just as she was about to pull away. The result was that I jerked her toward me with sudden force. She immediately went red and her voice got husky as she cuddled in and said ‘Woah.’… Read more »
Thank you for the blog post and the comments. I am new to this forum and The Ratonal Male, and am mostly through it. I see the points, the value and how I have played or been the AFC all of my life. Through recent therapy and separation I see the points, but now that I am trying to keep my relationship together (yes, an AFC move) because I remember how it was, and still suffer from white knight syndrome, is there a method or mindset that will allow an AFC to move towards more assertive, more Alpha behavior without… Read more »
@Monty, I am about 1 year ahead of you and also in a 14 y marriage with 3 kids. I don’t know if I would describe myself as a former afc because I was also a go my own way type of guy, but I certainly was not kicking ass and enjoying all life has to offer. Yes, I believe you can, and most of the same concepts apply, plus some others. Since Rollo’s is also married with kid, he can and does relate often. However, for those of us who have to repair and re-establish dominance and our own… Read more »
@Monty, welcome
Sorry for typos; working from phone. This routine was inspired by SJF’s story about his gay neighbors. 2-set. Cute blondes, both 7.5 or so. Got some basic background on both; one of them has been married for a year to ‘Jeff,’ has two big dogs; the other is single. Me: [grabs married girl’s left hand] ‘Give me your ring.’ Married girl (MG): No! [slaps my hand] Me (I’m standing close enough to hit her w my shoulder if I sway side to side): I’m married to Jeff now. We’re going to adopt an African baby, just like in the TV… Read more »
Actually, I’m definitely choking on logistics. It’s obvious in hindsight. I’ve been watching Julien’s PIMP, and one of the videos is called ‘the rhythm of the night’ or something like that and the basic point is that you can get girls as attracted as you like and you still won’t bang them if you don’t isolate/escalate at a point in the night where they’re looking to get fucked. Unless you’re really good/lucky. I’ve been trying to pull girls when they don’t want to be pulled, or when they would be judged for it. Ain’t gonna work. I have some girls… Read more »
Iron Rule of Tomassi #5 NEVER allow a woman to be in control of the birth. http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/06/professional-mothers/ http://hollywoodlife.com/2016/01/22/louis-tomlinson-shopping-video-baby-birth/ He did it! Louis Tomlinson made to to Los Angeles in time for the birth of his first child, a son born on the evening of Jan. 21. He’s been spotted out for the first time since his baby’s arrival and he looks positively beaming as a new papa! Congrats are in store for Louis Tomlinson, 24, and Briana Jungwirth, as she delivered a healthy baby boy. While the two aren’t a couple and barely even dated, they still plan on being… Read more »
This BPD narrative here fits in better for the western setup. Where I live a girl just cant trash a guy’s car like that. She will end up with a hot iron rod up her ass. Are you guys telling me I have to stop screwing feisty girls? When a girl gets feisty she is asking for a hard fucking. And she doesn’t want a relationship with you either. Why I know this is because she will cut out only to reach out to you later when the pussy itch strikes again.
@ Forge, SJF Thanks. Lots of information there to process. The suicidal thing Rollo wrote about in the BPD post is taking a toll on me. I’ve dealt with that almost my whole life, so hearing her say she’s suicidal is too much. I don’t have the resources to deal with this. And she’s making it out like I’m responsible for it. Like I was supposed to be her savior and now that I’m pulling away she has nothing to live for. Then saying she loves me and doesn’t want anything but to be with me and if that doesn’t… Read more »
@Softek: My Dr. Borderline is probably a rather mild case, but then I never let her do any shit. So far on any occasion where I was somewhat weak (stress from work etc) or when I did give her any more comfort (like giving her a date for a follow up meeting) she tried some power-struggle. I picked up all of them and won and each time she fell more in love with me and showed less issues afterwards. At several points I was ready to let her go. It’s true, you probably have to leave such a women regularly.… Read more »
Rollo, I hear what you are saying but what if accepting Red Pill ideals are not rewarded by women? Learning Red Pill ideals might be in my best interest but if it goes unrewarded by women then there is crisis of motive, in accepting the ideals which is what I am struggling with at the moment. For me the whole reason I got into Game and now Red Pill – although I am still trying to fit Red Pill ideals into the Blue pill ideals – was to get laid more. But the opposite seems to be happening – I… Read more »
Softek, I apologize in advance that I don’t know anything (have no expertise) about depression or suicide stuff. Nor do I or any other commenters have good or bad advice. It is just advice with neutral value. You place the value how you see fit. You saying you need to re-invent yourself is a buffer to kick your can down the road. The fact is you already did re-invent yourself with red pill awareness and game. You know that. You know you are better now than you were a year ago. You need more experienced tools on how to operate… Read more »
@kite, you have a gross misconception of the “reward” of the red pill. The reward is living to your highest potential, on your terms. The reward is prioritizing and provisioning for yourself, understanding your self worth, and allowing only the people into your life who add value.
Are women are reward? Nope, more akin to a perk.
@Chump_No_More
It’s funny, @kite refers to a bunch of titles of Rollo’s posts, almost as if the comment was assembled by cut n’ paste.. In “A New Hope”, Rollo repeats:
Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it
If you can’t accept that you are not Red Pill
As well, there is no version of Game that results in “isolating myself more”
@Monty Also in a 35 year mirage found this site 5months ago still working through it Don’t know if it will help but here goes.First thing after reading year one all the new posts and all related items underlined just click and read.At 55 years old wife is 58 we have seen our world change drasticaly and it seems to be escalating. I had to stop telling her my worry’s concerns troubles and pain and just be the rock.Also have changed body language, better posture, more self confidence,I will decide if we go to war and what the strategy is… Read more »
@Monty: “And finding a way to not lose what you have, while gaining . . . ”
You may find that in order to afford the Porsche you have to trade in the Toyota.
Or, alternatively, that when you buy the Porsche, the Toyota, which you were perfectly delighted with when you first bought it, is now assigned the role of “beater.”
“Last year when I had barely given birth to our second son, Rollo just stood by and did nothing while Glenn verbally eviscerated me in all kinds of ways – attacking everything about me, calling my life shit, calling me all sorts of names, all while I was trying to merely comment (agreeing no less) and take care of a few weeks old baby in our family. I had all kinds of postpartum hormones going on at that time as well, very little sleep, etc. so apparently just having a different opinion is pettiness, but resorting to personal insults, cussing,… Read more »
@Always Discerning:
http://illimitablemen.com/2014/03/09/how-women-argue/
@kfs Kentucky fried squirel
I like the metaphor and am assuming the Porsche vs. Toyota is a reference to lifestyle not partners.
@Monty “…..is there a method or mindset that will allow an AFC to move towards more assertive, more Alpha behavior without souring the whole thing immediately… What I am asking is, is there a way to move back to those glimpses of Alpha and beyond them, without destroying what I’ve built for a family… While improving it overall…” Yes there is a way. It is by no means easy nor quick. So don’t rush it if you don’t know what you are doing. There is a maxim, perhaps coined on reddit married red pill, that it takes a month for… Read more »
@stuffinbox:
That is why I edited the quote as I did, although I would use the word life, rather than lifestyle.
“I like the metaphor and am assuming the Porsche vs. Toyota is a reference to lifestyle not partners.”
I assume it means get a new partner. And I don’t disagree with that advice on women or cars. Me personally, I started with a Porsche, and don’t want to downgrade to a Toyota or a fat ugly Yugo.
http://illimitablemen.com/2014/03/09/how-women-argue/
If anyone here hasn’t read that essay and understand it and employ or develop tactics or methods in their sexual strategy they are missing out one the most valuable essays in the manosphere.
@SJF
“Frame isn’t Power”
This keeps standing out to me in what you say. Would you be willing to tell me what you mean by this? Obviously how you feel and how you see yourself as well as how you communicate your impression of yourself isn’t equivalent to your capacity to inspire confidence in others, though they are conflated, usually by gurus giving bad advice.
What do you specifically mean with that statement? Or should I be able to find it in year one and two?
@SJF:
In his case I think that likely, as he is trying to recover something that was already discarded, but if I had to nail down what I was referring to to a single concept, rather than the generic, it would be elements of his mental paradigm.
At which point his assessment of the value of his current “partnership” will change and he will be able to move on without angst. Right now he is in distress because he is trying to blue pill the red pill.
@Monty: Google “Sunk-Cost Fallacy”.
I had a Yugo kept it running w/ duck tape and baling wire strictly a to b car you can’t trade those things just crush them.Started out with the sexy 40s antique truck and still totaly into them.
I don’t equate Alpha with asshole but more a calm sense of presence and right direction that people are willing to follow voluntarily.I consider SJF and many others on this site as Alpha by these standards.
Don’t mismisunderstand me.
@monty It’s good that you’re here. Learning new game skills and redpill mindsets can make you a bit uncalibrated at first, and when you try to get frame back there’s usually a lot of pushback. So I would generally recommend not starting by trying to game the wife or get frame back directly. That part is tricky, best practiced by advanced practitioners rather than a novice. So start by working on your frame/value with new masculine pursuits. Lift, do martial arts, get into black smithing, start a side business, homestead, BASE jump, start a folk band, whatever you would lbe… Read more »
Hell, I don’t know I just regurgitate stuff I read in the manosphere. http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/12/frame/ The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before… Read more »
@Monty “So start by working on your frame/value with new masculine pursuits. Lift, do martial arts, get into black smithing, start a side business, homestead, BASE jump, start a folk band, whatever you would lbe passionate about. Basically, expand your personality apart from her and your relationship. That starts to give you a stronger MPO.” That is excellent, fantastic advice by Forge the Sky and it is a cornerstone of the “Mindful Attraction Plan”. You have to go your own way in the relationship with your wife. Law #16 Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor Too much circulation makes… Read more »
@Forge the Sky and @GW – thanks. @GW – Yeah, I have the curse of verbosity but at least I am in good company here! It is an amazing rush – if you’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy like me. Even more than the sex, my favourite moment on a date is when you feel the electric sexual chemistry as the “love bubble” forms – the moment when your eyes lock and you go in for the kiss for the first time.. @Forge – it’s just practice and I am slowly getting better but I have a long way… Read more »
@Blax & SJF – I can definitely be full of shit sometimes, lol, whether that was aimed at me or not. I hope people noticed that I was trying to correct Niko and he reverted to tedious parsing and semantics, and then I checked out. I don’t dislike him or think he’s in any way not sincere or even uncivil here. To my thinking, his ideas are pedestrian and i react because he poses himself as some kind of seer in his vids and comments. I don’t get a thing out of it, have mentioned it several times and will… Read more »
“They may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom.”
The ability to take life is power. The willingness to lose life rather than capitulate is frame.
How women argue:
Just a TRM PSA: I’ll be doing a livestream talk with Niko at 2pm PST today.
Watch this space for details.
And here is a man with unshakeable frame. You should have seen when he was on Joe Rogan’s show, he revealed what a Blue Piller Joe still is in some ways. Many of you probably know of Gavin McInnes – either way, you’re gonna love this clip.
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3SwRMyETlQ&w=560&h=315%5D
@Rollo: Perfect!
@Culum
Things only go in mod if you put more than 3 links in one post.
Good clip.
https://youtu.be/A-sU8GWoD3w
@Cheupez “This BPD narrative here fits in better for the western setup. Where I live a girl just cant trash a guy’s car like that. She will end up with a hot iron rod up her ass. Are you guys telling me I have to stop screwing feisty girls? When a girl gets feisty she is asking for a hard fucking. And she doesn’t want a relationship with you either. Why I know this is because she will cut out only to reach out to you later when the pussy itch strikes again.” Good perspective on this. I think that,… Read more »
@ lh
@ SJF
Sage advice from both of you. Pretty unbelievable. Now that I’m getting actual experience, the dots Rollo’s connected and the advice guys like you offer here is nothing short of amazing.
You both hit the nail on the head.
Definitely getting a lot of experience and feel like I’m learning more quickly.
Incidentally, the Uber minicab girl (she’s actually 30 and is an actual doctor in Miami- looks remarkably young) was arrested by the police after walking away and has been placed on “administrative leave” by her hospital and banned by Uber.
And she may yet lose her medical licence. So there’s some justice after all, although of course all that only happened because she was caught bang to rights on video…
@Thx for the FR, i got a lot out of it.
Good luck Softek.
See?
Now here is the point at which a guy can tell a man to think with his logical brain rather than with his dick.
See how that works, girls?
Same words. Different context.
In one context, serious and caring. In the other context, trite.
@Softek “And she’s making it out like I’m responsible for it. Like I was supposed to be her savior and now that I’m pulling away she has nothing to live for. Then saying she loves me and doesn’t want anything but to be with me and if that doesn’t work out she has nothing left.” Co-dependancy. She shouldn’t be relying on you to make her feel complete. In a relationship both people should contribute to the other’s life while still maintaining a solid identity aside from the other. In this case, it could also just be words to manipulate you… Read more »
Clarification re: “I’m not exactly convinced that this girl for sure has BPD or something similar, and your only option is to get out.”
Dangling modifier. I’m not convinced about either one of those things, not just the first one.